NetNews Usenet Archive 1992 #18/NN_1992_18.iso/spool/alt/comp/acadfre/talk/2559

Text File | 1992-08-13 | 11.6 KB | 261 lines

Newsgroups: alt.comp.acad-freedom.talk
Path: sparky!uunet!usc!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!eff!eff-gate!usenet
From: [e-mail] (Carl M. Kadie)
Subject: [news.admin.policy]  Re: Groups used to distribute illegal material
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Originator: [e-mail]
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: eff.org
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Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 08:26:35 GMT
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From: [e-mail] (Werner Uhrig)
Newsgroups: news.admin.policy
Subject:  Re: Groups used to distribute illegal material
Date: 13 Aug 1992 12:56:26 -0500
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>



    illegal and "not to my liking" or "without merit" are two different
    things completely.

    As a news site, you are free to only import those newsgroup which
    you are interested in and which your management considers to be
    of merit.  What is not to your taste or liking, you are free to
    ignore (and avoid importing and/or redistributing).

    The problem of what to do about articles which might be considered
    of "questionable legality" (innocent until proven guilty?) is a
    completely different matter.  In real life, most people only call
    their lawyers or the police when their personal interest are
    "under attack"; of course, we also are concerned when we are
    watching a "crime in progress", but we probably won't call the
    cops when someone is jay-walking or not keeping his dog on the
    leash... and who would call the cops when watching someone
    making photo-copies of (surely copyrighted) books and such,
    or nailing pictures from sex (obscene?) magazines on neighbor-
    hood trees?

    What remains is the question of "complicity" if the tree or
    wall that "illegal" material is nailed to is mine....

    heck, I'd rip it down from MY tree and fence, I'd do whatever
    possible to prevent that MY tree is used for this again,
    and I may go as far as suggesting to "the author" to reconsider
    what s/he is doing;  but I'd not be likely to consider FORMALLY
    raising "the legal question" (and, anyway, the analogy between
    "real life" and CyberSpace ends, as news-distribution isn't
    done in a way analogeous to someone abusing my tree or fence,
    but more like people sending me junkmail and ringing my doorbell
    and phone for "solicitation"...  though by hooking up to the
    net, you are actually better off as you can filter out (most)
    of what you don't care for by not importing certain newsgroups.
    still there always be articles you may object to in newsgroups
    you generally care for...  oh, well..)

    the problem of avoiding that people post "objectionable" material
    from your site (or send it by email or make it available for FTP)
    is a "completely different animal" (which you'll have to handle
    administratively under considerations of "privacy" and "freedom
    of speech" and "criminal liability"); when it comes to people
    FTPing (or receiving in email) "objectionable material" to your
    site, the question of "privacy" becomes even stronger (as the
    case to be made that you are criminally liable or that your
    reputation suffers (also) when "objectionable material" emanates
    from your site versus when someone receives it, is significantly
    different)

    Simply ignore those people who posted follow-up "flaming you"
    for expressing publically your concerns and thoughts; some
    people simply don't know to make an effort to understand others
    and thus are best simply ignored; we all disagree sometimes,
    but one learns to simply not pay attention to certain newsgroups
    and certain posters, as one identifies the contents to be
    mostly "without merit"...

                Cheers,        ---Werner
--
  [e-mail] |  ..!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!werner | [e-mail]

              "Free Advice and Opinions -- Refunds Available"
Newsgroups: news.admin.policy
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From: [e-mail] (Nelson Langille)
Subject: Re: Groups used to distribute illegal material
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Acadia University
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 16:04:45 GMT
Lines: 3

Yes, but isin't it true that many(mostly all) anonymous FTP sites
contain pictures which are copyrighted?  So what's the difference.

Newsgroups: news.admin.policy
Path: m.cs.uiuc.edu!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!sdd.hp.com!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!bgsuvax!sevans
From: [e-mail] (Stephen W. Evans)
Subject: Re: Groups used to distribute illegal material
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Bowling Green State University B.G., Oh.
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 16:50:05 GMT
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[e-mail] (Jurgen Botz) writes:

[Lots of unneccesary rationalizations and excuses deleted...]

> In summary, while I will fight tooth and nail against censorship in
> general when the issue comes up with the local powers-that-be, I am
> tempted to concede that newsgroups which are used to distribute
> demonstrably illegal materials not be carried.  I am fully aware of
> the complications and problems with such a policy, but I would like
> to see some further discussion of this topic.  I fear that if such
> discussion does not take place, the future of the entire Altnet is
> in peril as the Newsnet becomes more mainstream and gets exposed
> to greater scrutiny.


In other words you are opposed to censorship except where such items
as you are personnally opposed to are the ones being censored??
C'mon, it seems like EVERYONE, even Bible Thumpers, are opposed to
censorship of things they don't find objectionable.  The only criteria
then is if the "powers that be" find that the material should be
censored "for the good of the public".
Frankly if you use some justification for not carrying one group it
becomes quite simple then to come up with some seemingly just a logical
justification for eliminating others.
Banning groups is like eating lays potato chips, no one can do Just one!
-Steve

Newsgroups: news.admin.policy
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From: [e-mail] (John S Sinnott)
Subject: Re: Groups used to distribute illegal material
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 17:05:45 GMT
Lines: 30

An interesting question was brought up:  Is it defensible to allow access to
a newsgroup that distributes illegal material.  The example given was one
of the alt.sex.picture groups where copywrited material is often posted.

I think that we can all agree that the burden of proff is on the person
making the accusation.  Just which picture is copywritten, and is being
posted without perrmission.  To my knowledge, there has never been a case
involving an adult magazine publisher suing a BBS or network because of
.gif files.

I am not a lawyer, but is it not part of US copywrite law that an owner
of a copywrite must protect his/her property?

I would ask the powers that be to prove someone has broken the law.

Even if they can show wrongdoing, does that mean the group that the post
appered on should be closed?  Are they asking you to set up a policy where
every group that has someone breaking the law (or the groups charter) be
cancelled?  What about people illegally sending pirated software through
e-mail?  Should we get rid of E-mail too?  Or are the Powers only censoring
groups that they object to morally?  What about people who put copywritten
quotes in their .sigs?  Are we going to get rid of every group that has
someone doing this?

If I was the adminitrator, I would ask for well defined rules for determining
under what situations a group can be cancelled and then point out how many
other non-sex related groups would also have to go.

-John Sinnott

Path: m.cs.uiuc.edu!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!sdd.hp.com!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!ames!pacbell.com!rtech!ingres!sergio
From: [e-mail] (Sergio L Aponte)
Newsgroups: news.admin.policy
Subject: Re: Groups used to distribute illegal material
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 13 Aug 92 17:17:42 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Ingres, an ASK Company, Alameda CA 94501
Lines: 20
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5


    Another question is how "censorship" of a particular group solves
    the problem.

    After all, if enough sites ban a pictures group, won't the pictures
    start showing up somewhere else? Does eliminating a group that has
    an ofensive "charter" aliminates the questionable articles off your
    feed? NOT!

    In truth, I think the issue will come up more and more. With the
    "sexual harrasement" (sp?) focus, many companies/universities might not
    want to be involved with questionable groups, deciding to drop it vs
    entering a long argument about it. After all, if ONE person finds it
    offensive, no matter if it is rec.humor, it is cause enough for a
    "harrasement" (at least I am consistent on the spelling!) acusation.
--
===============================================================   _|||_
Sergio L. Aponte, SMTS @ Ingres, an ASK Company                   <*,*>
Internet : [e-mail]                                [`-']  Keko
UUCP     : {sun,mtxinu,pyramid,pacbell}!ingres!coqui!sergio       _"_"_  Jones
Newsgroups: news.admin.policy
Path: m.cs.uiuc.edu!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!sdd.hp.com!mips!darwin.sura.net!mlb.semi.harris.com!controls.ccd.harris.com!usenet
From: [e-mail] (Arnold Goldberg)
Subject: Re: Groups used to distribute illegal material
In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of Thu, 13 Aug 1992 15:14:31 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Harris Controls and Compositions
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 17:32:00 GMT
Lines: 42

>>>>> On Thu, 13 Aug 1992 15:14:31 GMT, [e-mail] (Jurgen Botz) said:

Jurgen> As a news administrator for a site relatively new to the Net, I have
Jurgen> recently been giving _much_ thought to the issues surrounding certain
Jurgen> controversial newsgroups.

[much stuff deleted]

Jurgen> Furthermore, I am somewhat personally offended that such a relatively
Jurgen> large percentage of the total bandwith used by my news feeds and
Jurgen> store are used for such morally questionable purposes by a presumably
Jurgen> tiny fringe group of network users who appear to feel that it is their
Jurgen> natural right to waste everyone's resources with their trash.

Before I unsubscribe this news group, let me just followup to this post.

I grant you the fact that you might be offended by the supposed "waste"
of "your" bandwidth (by way of the news feeds) by questionable news groups.

Let me suggest a simple remedy, that as the supposed news administrator
you must be aware of.

Restrict the inflow of the articles!!!!
Very creative, huh.  (An added hint for you, in case you really don't know:
it's in the sys file for your news setup).

I'd rather you censor yourself then me.


FLAME OFF and GOODBYE.

arnold


--
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Arnold Goldberg                            Email:  [e-mail]
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