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- Path: sparky!uunet!paladin.american.edu!gatech!udel!news.udel.edu!me.udel.edu!johnston
- From: johnston@me.udel.edu (Bill Johnston)
- Subject: Re: Fund raising at the FSF
- Message-ID: <C0Bq4B.C9E@news.udel.edu>
- Sender: usenet@news.udel.edu
- Nntp-Posting-Host: me.udel.edu
- Organization: University of Delaware
- References: <1993Jan3.170815.18962@husc3.harvard.edu> <C0B6qq.B2F@news.udel.edu> <1993Jan3.232427.18974@husc3.harvard.edu>
- Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 09:52:59 GMT
- Lines: 143
-
- In article <1993Jan3.232427.18974@husc3.harvard.edu> zeleny@husc10.harvard.edu (Michael Zeleny) writes:
- >In article <C0B6qq.B2F@news.udel.edu>
- >johnston@me.udel.edu (Bill Johnston) writes:
- >>In article <1993Jan3.170815.18962@husc3.harvard.edu>
- >>zeleny@husc10.harvard.edu (Michael Zeleny) writes:
- >>>In article <C0Ap5A.A4v@news.udel.edu>
- >>>johnston@me.udel.edu (Bill Johnston) writes:
- >>>>In article <1993Jan2.221526.18943@husc3.harvard.edu>
- >>>>zeleny@husc10.harvard.edu (Michael Zeleny) writes:
-
- BJ:
- >>It is still free for your use under the terms of the GPL - the terms
- >>set by the owner and copyright holder, which is not Mikhail Zeleny
- >>unless I've missed the name of a major contributor.
- >
- >I am willing to wager that my volunteered contribution to the founding
- >of the Free Software Foundation exceeds your own by an arbitrary factor
- >of your choice. How much are you willing to bet?
-
- And I am willing to wager that the sun will rise tomorrow.
-
- I don't give a damn who contributed to the *founding* of FSF.
- I expect that everyone who played a part sees himself as
- Marx, Lenin, or Trotsky. You're Marx, the philosopher, right?
- Or is it Trotsky because you now whine about betrayal?
-
- What matters is whether or not you are a major contributor to
- FSF code - the intellectual property that is covered by the GPL.
-
- If you are, you would have the right to dictate the terms under
- which your contribution can be used. If not, you are just one of
- many observers, like me, who have expressed an opinion on the the GPL.
-
- Some of your ideas have merit.
-
- The question of strict "public-virus" restrictions versus a "fair use"
- clause is a tough call. Without these restrictions, I think that the
- code would be used in a way that does not advance the cause of "free"
- software as well as it has done under the GPL. Your opinion differs.
-
- I don't give a damn about semantics or word usage. I am more
- impressed by results. For example one might compare the recent
- rate of development of GPL'd Linux with that of Mach 3.0 and
- Net2-derived 386BSD which have been slowed by various non-technical
- (mostly legal, I assume) hassles. It is also my opinion that
- recent progress on GPL'd projects has been better than recent
- progress in TeX and X-Windows, which have been cited as examples
- of better-licensed software. My impression is that this progress
- is due to the fact that the programmers who choose to work under
- the GPL are strongly motivated by it. I don't know why exactly,
- but I'm impressed by the results.
-
- I am also impressed by the number of programmers who have
- recently contributed copylefted versions of work that formerly
- was released under other more-or-less "free" licensing schemes.
- From my position as mere observer, it appears that Stallman has
- been increasingly successful in convincing others to use the GPL.
-
- If you want to make a case for changing the direction of FSF,
- or for promoting an better licensing scheme for "more-or-less free"
- software, you'll have to be very convincing given recent trends.
-
- In the discourse thus far, you have not made any points that
- haven't been advanced previously in gnu.misc.discuss, and you
- haven't succeeded in making them more convincingly than others
- have in the past -- this despite the fact that you write well.
-
- I'm sorry, but I find it suspicious that in your recent tirade
- you choose to attack the policies of one organization and x-ref
- to half a dozen that traditionally host arguments conducted
- primarily for sport.
-
- In some articles you lean toward semantics and cast yourself
- as defender of the English language; in others you make more
- specific points about software licensing and attack individuals
- associated with FSF; in others you claim to champion the idea
- of freedom. The aggregate reads more like the work of one who
- enjoys flame wars than someone who is making a genuine effort
- to advance a serious argument.
-
- Despite its increasingly hostile tone, this article managed
- to include most of Mr. Zeleny's worthwhile points in a single
- paragraph which is worth repeating for those who keep Zeleny
- is their kill files:
-
- MZ writes:
- >I had shared my idea, as well as a great deal of personal effort and
- >expenses, with Stallman and company seven and a half years ago; my
- >sole reward was an underhanded exclusion from the promised seat on the
- >Foundation's board of directors. Just for you, my little pigeon, I will
- >repeat the gist of it: make the bloody "copyleft" a request, rather than
- >a demand. Ask that people limit their proprietary code borrowing to
- >conventionally defined "fair use". Do not attempt to bind anyone's
- >action, except by appealing to his conscience. Ignore the inevitable
- >cheaters; nothing can stop a determined thief. Offer your paying
- >customers warranty support; give people a genuine incentive to pay you
- >for copies, rather than offload them from an archive. There is no real
- >need to copyright the programs, but if you must do it, whilst reserving
- >the right to call the resulting software free, make the terms as
- >non-restrictive as possible. I adduce Knuth's TeX as exibit A.
-
- Ignoring the insults, this is well-written and concise. Your problem
- is that the readers who matter -- ie, those who are currently engaged
- in producing intellectual property and thus have to decide under what
- terms to distribute it -- are probably intelligent people who have
- considered these points before. Many evidentally disagree with you.
-
- MZ:
- >Son, I don't give a cold fuck whether you take my allegations at face
- >value; it is quite enough for me that the principals know that I speak
- >the truth. More than seven years of silence is enough; from now on, I
- >shall call it as I see it. If I see hypocrisy, I identify it as such;
- >if I know that the self-professed defenders of freedom and Kantian
- >virtue had no qualms about using my work and breaking their commitment,
- >I make a public statement. Likewise, I have absolutely no interest in
- >your opinion of the quality of my concern; if you wish to put your money
- >where your mouth is, just take my bet.
-
- Frankly, I don't see how your "allegations" were in any way relevant;
- my opinion of the GPL would not be based on the personalities of those
- who wrote it or now advocate it, just as my opinion of Kant would not
- be affected by his hairstyle. I look at the text of the document
- and compare its merits to alternative licensing schemes.
-
- So there were disagreements when you worked with FSF and you failed to
- convince the others that you were right. This doesn't surprise me.
- Now you attack their behavior as part of an effort to discredit
- their ideas? You'd have done well in the Bush administration.
-
- Your wager challenge is ridiculous. I made no effort to cast
- myself as anything but an interested observer; nor would my
- status affect the merit of my arguments.
-
- If you want to get your money's worth for your efforts made thus
- far, I suggest that you expand your one gem of a paragraph above
- into a fully-developed "Zeleny Public License", and then work to
- convince programmers that your way is better. It might help your
- credibility with some readers if you didn't simultaneously x-ref
- to alt.society.anarchy and alt.usage, but again, opinions vary.
-
- --
- -- Bill Johnston (johnston@me.udel.edu)
- -- 38 Chambers Street; Newark, DE 19711; (302)368-1949
-