Stars of Shareware: Programmierung

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Text File | 1993-06-15 | 50.9 KB | 908 lines

(11-5,Bob P/HOST) First, I hope everyone has had a chance to look at RHDES.TXT... (11-2,MarkB) ? (11-5,Bob P/HOST) GO ahead MarkB (11-2,MarkB) Are you recording? (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Yes, getting it all on tape <g> (11-29,Michael H) ? (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Michael, go ahead (11-29,Michael H) I thought I'd jump right into the fishbowl with.. Are we going to be (11-29,Michael H) standardizing on one compiler or attempting to keep it as open as possible (11-5,Bob P/HOST) We'll be getting to that. but now is as good a time as any to bring it up... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) I'd like to support Both BC++ and MSC++ 7.0. (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Any questions on that? (11-3,Scott Weller/Zapp!) ? (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Go ahead Scott. (11-3,Scott Weller/Zapp!) Well, I have a friend who programs in C++ and Assembly, very good at them, (11-3,Scott Weller/Zapp!) and is very interested in helping.... But only has access to INTERNET.... (11-3,Scott Weller/Zapp!) Can he send messages to us on gamers? or get involved through INTERNET? (11-34,Jim K.) ? (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Ooops, Scott... you can send E=Mail throught the Internet... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) I don't know the exact format for sending it R. Morlen does... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Unfortunately I want to bring up the topic of E-Mail, I'd rather we discuss most of the stuff in the gamers... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) forum itself so that others can comment on it. Go ahead Jim K (11-34,Jim K.) i know internet format, if you want it now (11-17,Peter Bailey) ? (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Jim K - let's send it up in a message so others not here can see it. (11-34,Jim K.) ok (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Pete ? (11-17,Peter Bailey) I just discovered all the rehack material a couple of days ago ... (11-17,Peter Bailey) Is everyone else familar with it all already ? ga (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Pete - some have read it as you have. Others haven't. SOme of... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) us who've been in the Game Design section for a while are familiar... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) with most of it. Don't worry if you think you're behind... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) most of us here have just discovered it also. (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Anyone else with questions before we get into RHDES.TXT? (11-5,Bob P/HOST) OK, has anyone not read RHDES.TXT yet? ga (11-5,Bob P/HOST) OK, section 1... just a summary anyone want to discuss anything? (11-5,Bob P/HOST) So far so good <g>. Naming conventions, anyone got anything else to... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) add? (11-34,Jim K.) ? (11-5,Bob P/HOST) OK Jim ga. (11-34,Jim K.) any specs on internal coding practices? variable names? etc? (11-2,MarkB) ? (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Jim ... no, not as of yet. But I'm all for it, I've only covered as... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) far as the File header, would you like to propose it and/or head it... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) up? (11-29,Michael H) ? (11-34,Jim K.) ok... if no objections? <g> (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Objections? (11-5,Bob P/HOST) OK, again post it in Section 11. (11-34,Jim K.) nod (11-5,Bob P/HOST) I've got MarkB and Michael H, ga MarkB (11-2,MarkB) What about standard extensions for data files, or is that going to be (11-2,MarkB) more of a mix'n'match? (11-5,Bob P/HOST) MarkB - good point. Any data files used thoughout the game should... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) be agreed upon, not that it really matters that much <g>, any that... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) are pretty much used in one section only can be anything. (11-2,MarkB) What about graphics for the icons, tiles, etc? PCX, GIF, IMG ? (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Right, as far as artwork, we'd use the standard industry extensions. (11-5,Bob P/HOST) .IMG I assume is just an image dump. (11-5,Bob P/HOST) MarkB - if you'd like to differentiate tiles, icons etc, thats fine... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) with me, rather than everything being .PCX or whatever. (11-2,MarkB) Yes, IMG is an image dump with size data, such as Lary is using. (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Mark B - right, 2 byte width, 2 byte height, image. (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Mark B - would you like to post proposals for data files? <g> (11-2,MarkB) Sure can do, I'll even include libraries <g> (11-5,Bob P/HOST) OK. Go ahead Michael H. (11-29,Michael H) I'd like to propose that we use just one file format within the program... (11-29,Michael H) since this will cut down on program size and complexity. Either on-disk,.. (11-29,Michael H) or in-memory standardization would seem helpful to me. GA (11-2,MarkB) ! (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Michael, do you mean for graphics images? Can you elaborate? (11-29,Michael H) Yes, primarily for graphic images (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Our own file format with a standard header or an industry graphics... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) format? (11-2,MarkB) Industry standard would be easier, as there are already routines for (11-2,MarkB) handling them (11-29,Michael H) Ultimately it wouldn't matter as long as we can convert the file to our ... (11-29,Michael H) own format, or all agree to use a format that would meet the needs of the... (11-29,Michael H) game. GA (11-5,Bob P/HOST) .IMG files can be large... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) .PCX can be a bear to decode, fortunately we've got stuff in the... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) libs to do it. (11-29,Michael H) True, but there are other formats that support compression. GIF, TIF etc (11-18,Mark/Ass't SysOp) Bob... nah, PCX is really easy to decode. It's the variation in... (11-18,Mark/Ass't SysOp) Bob... standards that is a bear. ga (11-2,MarkB) ? (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Michael - right, we don't have to decide now... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) I'd be happy to leave it up to anyone doing the graphics libs, or... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) decide it online in the forum, via messages. (11-29,Michael H) Agreed (11-5,Bob P/HOST) ga MarkB (11-2,MarkB) Are there any of our artists here now ? They can probably decide (11-2,MarkB) as well as anyone. I'd recommend JPEG for compression, but GIF is (11-2,MarkB) more widely supported. GA (11-3,Scott Weller/Zapp!) I do some art... (11-23,Craig & Paul) Paul here does some... (11-23,Craig & Paul) he paints and draws, etc (11-5,Bob P/HOST) OK, artists please post your preferences... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) when we decide on a graphics guys he'll post his preferences. (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Go ahead Mark. (11-18,Mark/Ass't SysOp) ? (11-3,Scott Weller/Zapp!) ! (11-18,Mark/Ass't SysOp) I just wanted to follow up with Mark Baker. JPEG is lossy, and... (11-18,Mark/Ass't SysOp) there's not all that much info in 320 x 200 to begin with! (11-10,David Boynton) ? (11-18,Mark/Ass't SysOp) For what you guys are doing PCX is probably good enough, or GIF. GA (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Yes, we don't want to lose anything. I don't want to spend too much... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) time on this one topic... I wanted to use this as an oppurtunity to... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) get people thinking and do most of the decision making through... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) messages. (11-17,Peter Bailey) ? (11-3,Scott Weller/Zapp!) ? (11-5,Bob P/HOST) So, let's post our preferences reasons etc. Keeping in mind that we... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) already have code to use .PCX, .PCX compresses fairly well, and I... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) like .PCX <g> (11-5,Bob P/HOST) I have Peter and Scott, go ahead Peter. (11-17,Peter Bailey) Are we going to try to use all OOP or do we want to mix C and C++ . ga (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Peter - I'd like to see it all OOP C++. It's certainly up for... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) discussion, but my feeling is that OOP is the way to go. (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Follow up, Peter? (11-18,Mark/Ass't SysOp) <C... bad... boo.. humbug... hiss <g>> (11-2,MarkB) Pascal rules OK (11-17,Peter Bailey) Sounds reasonable to me, it will just take me a little time... (11-17,Peter Bailey) to get up to speed. ga (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Many of use here don't have much in C++, when we get to Section 7... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) <gads> of RHDES.TXT I'd like to propose some ideas on design. (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Go ahead Scott. (11-29,Michael H) ? (11-3,Scott Weller/Zapp!) I just wanted to follow up and say that I agree PCX is one of the better (11-3,Scott Weller/Zapp!) formats to use with this project. Also, I'm also as Peter, I will have to (11-3,Scott Weller/Zapp!) get up to speed with you guys, I've been doing C++ for a year, but with (11-3,Scott Weller/Zapp!) mostly programming BBS applications (modem stuff).... But it has been in VGA (11-3,Scott Weller/Zapp!) .... ga (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Ok, good, go ahead Michael (11-29,Michael H) If we mix the two (three actually since I hope we'll use asm where ... (11-29,Michael H) we can benefit) Then I think we should limit the C and asm to low level ... (11-29,Michael H) routines where speed is desired. C++ doesn't always slow things down, ... (11-29,Michael H) but it has that ability where classes get complicated. GA (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Yes, I'm in total agreement. Everyone? (11-34,Jim K.) nod (11-10,David Boynton) yes (11-17,Peter Bailey) Yep (11-2,MarkB) tick (11-23,Craig & Paul) yes (11-18,Mark/Ass't SysOp) d'accord (11-3,Scott Weller/Zapp!) Sounds fine to me. (11-5,Bob P/HOST) OK, anything else related to files before we move to 3 Directory... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) structure? (11-2,MarkB) ? (11-29,Michael H) ? (11-23,Craig & Paul) ? (11-5,Bob P/HOST) I have MarkB, Michael H, C & p, anyone else? (11-5,Bob P/HOST) oops C & P. (11-2,MarkB) cancel ? (11-5,Bob P/HOST) ok, go ahead Michael H (11-29,Michael H) Is the format for the raw data files set in stone (or clay)? GA (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Michael - no, anything that's been done already can be cast aside if... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) we wish, as a matter of fact I only point it out as examples of... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) what's been done. I'd like to see us do as we see fit. (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Michael - were you referring to some of the demos? (11-29,Michael H) ok, unfortunately I haven't had time to really study the code since... (11-29,Michael H) I've been working many hours at my life-job ;-) Demos - No, not in ... (11-29,Michael H) particular. Just a general query. GA (11-5,Bob P/HOST) OK, then to answer, nothing is set in stone, some things aren't even... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) set in paper. <g> Go ahead C & P. (11-17,Peter Bailey) ? (11-23,Craig & Paul) What type of sound (such as file format) is there going to be? (11-23,Craig & Paul) ga (11-5,Bob P/HOST) C & P - another topic for discussion, me feelings are .MIDI for... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) music and some digitized standard for effects... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) something that a sound person can decide. Follow up? (11-34,Jim K.) ? (11-23,Craig & Paul) Follow up? (11-18,Mark/Ass't SysOp) ? (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Go ahead Craig. (11-23,Craig & Paul) Sorry, I was wondering what you meant by Follow up? (I know understand) (11-23,Craig & Paul) ga (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Craig - I just meant did you want to ask a follow up question. Go... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) ahead Peter Bailey. (11-17,Peter Bailey) Bob, do you know if the people who contributed the wealth of material... (11-17,Peter Bailey) already in the lib are joining us in this endeavor ? ga (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Peter - yes, some will be. Flying Gerbil has expressed an... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) interest, if anyone has his ID please forward it. (11-3,Scott Weller/Zapp!) I think I do.... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Some have not shown an interest, others may not be aware yet. (11-5,Bob P/HOST) One I'd like to get back into it is Gus Smedstad. (11-5,Bob P/HOST) For the most part the answer is no. (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Peter - follow up question? (11-17,Peter Bailey) done (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Ok, Jim K, go ahead. (11-34,Jim K.) re sound: are there a lot of music people hanging out in sec 11? how about ... (11-34,Jim K.) trolling the multimedia fora ... ga (11-2,MarkB) ! (11-3,Scott Weller/Zapp!) ! (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Yes, that's a good idea same thing in the graphics forums for... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) artists. (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Go ahead Mark Betz. (11-18,Mark/Ass't SysOp) As you guys probably know, sound programming in DOS can be very... (11-18,Mark/Ass't SysOp) complex. Fortunately there's no longer any real need to reinvent... (11-18,Mark/Ass't SysOp) the wheel (unless you really want to!). There are two vendors of... (11-18,Mark/Ass't SysOp) complete sound libraries that hang out on CIS: Mystic Toolworks... (11-18,Mark/Ass't SysOp) and John Ratcliff's Audio Design. Given that the project is a... (11-18,Mark/Ass't SysOp) freeware game, one of them (most likely Mystic) could probably... (11-18,Mark/Ass't SysOp) be pursuaded to donate a shareware version of their library. This... (11-18,Mark/Ass't SysOp) would make the sound programming _infinitely_ easier. GA. (11-34,Jim K.) follow-up (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Yes, Mark, you know that I'd like to see everything done by scratch,... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) as a learning experience, but as far as sound goes, that's the one... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) area that more people have had problems with, bad docs or... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) whatever, so I think we should give that a shot, can you contact... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) them, with no objections from the group? (11-18,Mark/Ass't SysOp) I have a handle on Mystic, but I wouldn't put too much hope in... (11-18,Mark/Ass't SysOp) Audio Design, simply because they are very high-end. I would also... (11-18,Mark/Ass't SysOp) mention that a side-effect of using a lib is multiple hardware... (11-18,Mark/Ass't SysOp) support out of the box. GA and done. (11-5,Bob P/HOST) ok, any objections to trying for a sound lib? (11-17,Peter Bailey) Sounds like a good idea (11-5,Bob P/HOST) yea/nea. (11-34,Jim K.) yea (11-35,Lary Myers) "sounds" good to me. (11-1,Randy Morlen) yea (11-34,Jim K.) (oops yea = go for it (11-18,Mark/Ass't SysOp) <groan> (11-2,MarkB) multiple hardware support is a big plus (11-23,Craig & Paul) yea, I guess (11-23,Craig & Paul) Gus support? (11-18,Mark/Ass't SysOp) Mystic is a good possibility. I'll give Tim Herder a shout. (11-5,Bob P/HOST) I have Randy & C&P objecting, is that right? (11-1,Randy Morlen) no, I think you should go for it. (11-18,Mark/Ass't SysOp) Randy looks like a 'yea' to me. (11-23,Craig & Paul) Not If it supports GUS (Ultrasound) (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Ooops, sorry guys. C&P I'm pretty sure it would, Mark will check. (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Jim K, you're follow up then back to MarkB. (11-34,Jim K.) my original point was more about the art than the tech... i saw an artist... (11-34,Jim K.) in multimedia who was basically advertising for game music ... check out ... (11-34,Jim K.) rainy nite (a .mod file) ... killer! ga (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Jim K. - ok, then we should contact him, see if he's interested.... (11-34,Jim K.) will do (11-5,Bob P/HOST) I'll post a general message in the forum, you can contact him... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) personally. (11-34,Jim K.) nod (11-5,Bob P/HOST) OK, go ahead MarkB (11-2,MarkB) I was going to suggest Kirk Bateman might be interested in the (11-2,MarkB) Sound side of things, I know he hangs out here and in the (11-2,MarkB) Midi forums; but I think a s/w lib is better (11-2,MarkB) ga (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Well, when we talk implementation, we may decide to leave sound out... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) at first, so we may just decide to bite the bullet and give it a... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) shot, who knows. I favor the lib, but if we have a sound genus, why... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) not let him go for it. We'll have to ask Kirk. (11-5,Bob P/HOST) MarkB, follow up? (11-26,Jeff Chimene) ok, I assume that means the last statement was ... (11-2,MarkB) I like the idea of another Brit actively involved; and I know (11-2,MarkB) he's done SB stuff in TP (11-2,MarkB) ga (11-5,Bob P/HOST) OK, we may parallel trying to get mystic and see what Kirk can do,... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) I'll ask him if that aspect interests him. (11-5,Bob P/HOST) OK, go ahead Scott. (11-3,Scott Weller/Zapp!) I'm really sorry, I totally lost what iw as going to say when we started (11-3,Scott Weller/Zapp!) talking about sounds.... <grin> (11-5,Bob P/HOST) OK, lets move on to the directory, anyone have any comments,... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) problems with it? Anything I left out? (11-2,MarkB) ? (11-5,Bob P/HOST) I have MarkB, anyone else? (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Go ahead MarkB. (11-2,MarkB) Your example #include is relative to the party directory (11-2,MarkB) surely it would be better always to work in the \REHACK (11-2,MarkB) directory, and cite everything relative to that. GA (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Well we could go that way, I like always having the source files I'm... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) working on in the current directory, and everything else at the same... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) level in the tree. I won't dictate it, if we decide to work from... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) REHACK, it'll be fine with me. Follow up MarkB? (11-26,Jeff Chimene) ? (11-18,Michael H) ? (11-2,MarkB) It's just a personal preference. I always work placing my final (11-2,MarkB) executables in the 'relative-root' and just including subdirectories. (11-2,MarkB) GA (11-5,Bob P/HOST) I was thinking we could have someone working in the game directory... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) tying everything together, I'm also looking at version control... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) problems and uploading. (11-2,MarkB) Just personal preference, I'll tie in with the consensus (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Same here, lets here from the two questions, go ahead Jeff (11-26,JeffC) I'm leaning towards the document; it will help cut down on name space collisions (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Finished, Jeff? (11-26,JeffC) yes (I'm new to this; please have patience) (11-5,Bob P/HOST) It's ok here's a couple basics ... = more coming, ga = go ahead. (11-26,JeffC) ga (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Comment Michael H? (11-18,Michael H) Yes, but I've decided there's a bit too much to post here, I'll post ... (11-18,Michael H) a message in sec 11 later. GA (11-5,Bob P/HOST) OK, so directory structure and working is still up in the air, we'll... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) discuss it in posts and go with the majority, everyone ok with that? (11-34,Jim K.) nod (11-26,JeffC) yes (11-17,Peter Bailey) yes (11-2,MarkB) yea (11-18,Michael H) yes (11-23,Craig & Paul) nod (11-1,Randy Morlen) yes (11-3,Scott Weller/Zapp!) Yes. (11-5,Bob P/HOST) OK, the ZIP file system makes it easier on me for uploading, easier... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) for everyone to get the latest version of the stuff others are... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) working on but you may depend on, and easier for new team members to... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) get the whole thing. Anyone like to bring up anything about it? (11-26,JeffC) ? (11-5,Bob P/HOST) I've got Jeff C, anyone else? (11-5,Bob P/HOST) ok, Jeff, shoot. (11-26,JeffC) Do version numbers in the name make any sense? I'm particularly (11-26,JeffC) interested in the issue of ensuring that updates to the lib don't overwrite each other. ga (11-2,MarkB) ! (11-3,Scott Weller/Zapp!) ! (11-5,Bob P/HOST) I'd like version numbers in the files and one focal point for... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) uploading the "official" rehack files to the library, hopefully that... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) would take care of it. Mark Betz always has access to the files... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) befopre they are merged, so he can alert me if anyone other than... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) myself is uploading the official versions. Follow up Jeff? (11-26,JeffC) no. (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Go ahead MarkB (11-2,MarkB) Version numbers in the filename is a PITA for library routines, atec (11-2,MarkB) 'cos it means all other files that use that library also need (11-2,MarkB) changing. I say nay to that. GA (11-5,Bob P/HOST) MarkB - I agree, I'd like them in header, but agree completely, file... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) names should pretty much stay once named, makes it easier on other... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) relying on your work. Follow up Mark? (11-2,MarkB) no (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Scott? go ahead (11-3,Scott Weller/Zapp!) Okay, this may be out of the subject, but for faster downloading here, (11-3,Scott Weller/Zapp!) does CIS support 14,400? (11-5,Bob P/HOST) No, unfortunately not. We should limit our stuff to source only,... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) zipped. For download time and because of object module diffs. (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Shouldn't be too bad that way, anyone else on ZIP files? (11-34,Jim K.) ? (11-3,Scott Weller/Zapp!) Large transfers here are expensive, and we'll be sending thisgs back and (11-3,Scott Weller/Zapp!) fourth I would think.... (11-26,JeffC) ! (11-3,Scott Weller/Zapp!) done (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Scott - yes that can get expensive. How often people update there... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) stuff may be limited to once a week, to help keep costs down. If... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) anyone has ideas to help with this, I'm all for it... post it in... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) section 11. (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Go ahead Jim K. (11-34,Jim K.) should we standardize on PKZIP 2.04G? (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Yes, does anyone not have it yet? We should use it, with no... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) objections? (11-23,Craig & Paul) no (11-26,JeffC) no objection (11-2,MarkB) nay (11-17,Peter Bailey) cool (11-1,Randy Morlen) no objections (11-18,Michael H) sounds good (11-3,Scott Weller/Zapp!) I have it.... (11-30,Holy Avenger) Depends. What are we not objecting to? (11-5,Bob P/HOST) THA - using PKZIP 2.04G for our source code ZIP files. (11-30,Holy Avenger) Ah. No, no objections. (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Finished Scott? (11-3,Scott Weller/Zapp!) Yes. (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Ok, on the subject of keeping costs down, how often would you like... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) to conference? In between regular Game Design conferences (every... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) other week, or once a month? (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Right, Jeff, still got you on the list. (11-3,Scott Weller/Zapp!) ! (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Go ahead Jeff. (11-18,Michael H) ! (11-26,JeffC) Sorry, I want to backtrack to the ZIP. Realizing this may be a PITA for the librarian, but is it reasonable to supply update - only (11-26,JeffC) zip files to speed up the download process? GA (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Well, I'm the librarian, and I have no problem with it. I really... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) don't want to break anyone in the project <g> (11-3,Scott Weller/Zapp!) ! (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Go ahead Scott. (11-18,Michael H) ! (11-3,Scott Weller/Zapp!) Okay, back to the costs of uplaoding and downloading.... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) gotcha next Michael. (11-3,Scott Weller/Zapp!) I have a BBS that supports 14,400 (w/1 gig space).... (11-3,Scott Weller/Zapp!) It might be cheeper to just do transfers there if you want.... If they (11-3,Scott Weller/Zapp!) are very large.... How many of you out there have HS modems? (11-3,Scott Weller/Zapp!) It may be cheeper at 14.4 long distance than 2400 on CIS to do large trans.. (11-3,Scott Weller/Zapp!) Just a suggestion. (11-2,MarkB) ! (11-5,Bob P/HOST) It may be, where is your BBS located? (11-3,Scott Weller/Zapp!) Well.... It may be out of the way, but just a suggestion. Rhode Island. (11-5,Bob P/HOST) close to me anyway, what's the number? (11-3,Scott Weller/Zapp!) 401-294-7852. (11-5,Bob P/HOST) The files sholdn't be very large, and not uploaded _that_ often, if... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) it becomes a problem we may have to worl something like that out. (11-5,Bob P/HOST) GO ahead Michael H, then I have MarkB. (11-18,Michael H) Couple of things... (11-18,Michael H) If anyone here has a 14,400 speed modem then they should be able to do ... (11-18,Michael H) 9600 baud, which CIS supports. Not as good as 14,4 but better than 2400. (11-18,Michael H) ga (11-34,Jim K.) ! (11-3,Scott Weller/Zapp!) ! (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Yes, CIS doesn't yet suport V32 or V42 as far as I know, but 9600... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) isn't too bad. (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Go ahead MarkB. (11-2,MarkB) It's a nice offer Scott, and I'll be getting a 14,400 modem in (11-2,MarkB) the next month: but it means a transatlantic call for me. It'd (11-2,MarkB) probably work out cheaper using 300 baud on CIS with a local phone (11-2,MarkB) call. (11-2,MarkB) ga (11-5,Bob P/HOST) BTW, MarkB, are the charges alot more in Europe, also how does... (11-18,Michael H) ? (11-5,Bob P/HOST) everyone feel about a slightly earlier con on a weekend for those in... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Europe? (11-34,Jim K.) ok (11-26,JeffC) ok (11-3,Scott Weller/Zapp!) Sure. (11-23,Craig & Paul) sure (11-1,Randy Morlen) ok (11-18,Michael H) ok (11-2,MarkB) It's standard CIS rates, with an overhead for 8am thru 7pm GMT. The extra (11-2,MarkB) is about $4.50/hour (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Again, let's not decide here, I'm leaning towards a Sat. at 7:00 pm... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) eastern time. (11-5,Bob P/HOST) everyone post your thoughts.... Go ahead Jim K. (11-1,Randy Morlen) I'll try and make it. (11-26,JeffC) ! (11-34,Jim K.) re hs modems: those of us with HST modems are stuck at 2.400... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) After Jim I have Scott, Michael H, Jeff C. (11-34,Jim K.) scott: hst support? (btw v32=9600, v32bis=14.4) (11-34,Jim K.) ga (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Jim K, why is that? I have a 14.4 and log in at 9600. (11-3,Scott Weller/Zapp!) Jim - yes, v32bis & v42bis compression. (11-34,Jim K.) hst is not v32 compatible.... (sigh) ga (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Oh, ok, not a dual standard, gotcha. (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Well, we can't figure it out here, everyone post your ideas. (11-5,Bob P/HOST) ok, go ahead Michael H. (11-18,Michael H) Just an opinion... (11-18,Michael H) but I'd lean toward a con once a month with smaller impromptu cons ... (11-18,Michael H) when team members needs to talk one-on-one or one-on-x. GA (11-5,Bob P/HOST) That's fine with me. Everyone - bi-weekly or monthly? (11-34,Jim K.) ( i have no life ) whatever <g> (11-3,Scott Weller/Zapp!) Whenever <grin> (11-23,Craig & Paul) bi-weekly (11-3,Scott Weller/Zapp!) School's out.... (11-26,JeffC) monthly, on the weekends. 7PM EST is 4PM PST. I might be lucid by then <G> (11-2,MarkB) Monthly, Saturday night is the one night each week when my gf (11-2,MarkB) sends the kids off to her mums. <g> (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Remember the transcripts will always be available to anyone who... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) can't make it or feels they should cut back. (11-1,Randy Morlen) Monthy, unless you need us to have one sooner. You can contact us. (11-5,Bob P/HOST) OK, it looks like it may be tough to have everyone here at the same... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) time. (11-5,Bob P/HOST) It's a tough one to call, I'm at a loss now for a solution that'll... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) keep those on both sides of the atlantic happy... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) as far as the cost issue, attendance here will never be mandatory. (11-26,JeffC) So go for Sunday... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) That's still pretty late and I hoped to keep away froma next-day... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) work day. (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Oh, do you mean Sunday during the day? (11-26,JeffC) Yes (11-2,MarkB) 19:00 est isn't too bad on a Sunday, even with work the following am (11-5,Bob P/HOST) That'd be 10pm your time? (11-2,MarkB) midnight, I'm +5 from est (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Yikes. (11-2,MarkB) 03:47 at present (11-26,JeffC) ? (11-34,Jim K.) (good lord!) (11-5,Bob P/HOST) I'd be for 7 Sunday, but I don't know how you're gonna keep it up. (11-23,Craig & Paul) Next Subject? (11-5,Bob P/HOST) OK, Jeff C you had something? (11-18,Michael H) Couldn't we do it about 3:00 EST Lord knows I'm not a football fan. (11-2,MarkB) I'm a man with a coffee pot, I can take it (11-26,JeffC) Only wanted to add that mayber earlier than 7PM? GA (11-3,Scott Weller/Zapp!) Well I must be going now.... So long folks. (11-26,JeffC) bye scott (11-34,Jim K.) bye scott (11-2,MarkB) Seeya Scott (11-3,Scott Weller/Zapp!) Bye everyone.... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Let's table that and post everyones preferences, then we'll see what... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) comes up. (11-26,JeffC) ok (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Version control, pretty much related to ZIPs, comments? (11-26,JeffC) ? (11-5,Bob P/HOST) OK, go ahead Jeff C. (11-26,JeffC) Does RCS make sense? GA (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Not sure, elaborate? (11-26,JeffC) rcs is the version control system from FSF. The only change to the current stuff on the table would be a slight (adding $ )= (11-26,JeffC) characters to the file headers. The rest of it could be used later (11-26,JeffC) GA (11-5,Bob P/HOST) I don't know how it works, I thought those systems usually worked... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) where everyone was on the same network and could check files out for... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) update. If you'd like to check it out that's ok, of course we have... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) no money, anyone know of any freeware/shareware stuff? (11-1,Randy Morlen) ? (11-34,Jim K.) nope (11-26,JeffC) ? (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Go Randy. (11-1,Randy Morlen) There is gnurcs out. I think I may have a copy of it. ga (11-5,Bob P/HOST) All the GNU stuff is freeware, right? That'd be nice if we can... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) adapt it to our "distributed" network. (11-1,Randy Morlen) right. ga done (11-26,JeffC) ! (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Check it out, OK Randy. (11-23,Craig & Paul) bye, i've got to go (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Go ahead Jeff C. (11-1,Randy Morlen) ok. (11-2,MarkB) bye (11-26,JeffC) fsf are the ones doing gnu project. The advantage of rcs is that it will allow the software to be rolled back a rev. level. That may (11-26,JeffC) be important in this kind of environment= (11-5,Bob P/HOST) True, I'mnot familar with either, and I still don't completely... (11-26,JeffC) The addition of a distributed version manager is interesting. Perhaps CIS mail is part of the answer. GA (11-5,Bob P/HOST) understand how it'd work for us. Do they have a distributed version... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) manager included in it? (11-26,JeffC) No, it would have to be added. (11-18,Michael H) WEll, I've got to get back to work. Have a good night, all. (11-34,Jim K.) (wave) (11-26,JeffC) goodnight michael... (11-2,MarkB) bye Mike (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Thanks for coming Michael. (11-5,Bob P/HOST) OK, source is included I take it? You have ideas on how to do it... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Jeff? (11-26,JeffC) Yes, one snags it off the net. I believe a messy-dos version is in IBMSYS. If not there, certainly the Internet. I bring this up (11-26,JeffC) to make the librarian's life easier. I don't want to defend this to (11-26,JeffC) the death <G>. (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Well, I'd certainly like to make it easier. I'll look around for it... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) and see what we can do? (11-2,MarkB) Does this mean you're volunteering as librarian Jeff?? (11-26,JeffC) Isn't that Bob's yawb? (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Actually I was going to handle that (with no objections) because... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) that may be the most expensive part, i.e. the librarian has to keeop... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) LIB 11 up to date also <g>. Pretty pricey. (11-2,MarkB) No problemo <g> (11-26,JeffC) GFI! (11-5,Bob P/HOST) OK, so for now it's manual version control, looking into FSF and GNU... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) something or other. (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Anyone have comments on File Header? (11-2,MarkB) ? (11-26,JeffC) ? (11-5,Bob P/HOST) I have Mark and Jeff, anyone else? (11-1,Randy Morlen) ? (11-5,Bob P/HOST) gotcha Randy, go ahead Mark B (11-2,MarkB) Minor query, is tab information really relevant ?? (11-2,MarkB) ga (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Yeah, everyone has a preference for their own tab stops, usually the... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) default in their editor... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) when you look at a file that is tabbed differently it becomes... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) unreadable, so you generally try every tab stop until it looks... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) right, makes it easier to look at stuff. (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Follow up MarkB? (11-2,MarkB) I always inset by 8 in text, and 2 in code (except ifs, which get 3) (11-2,MarkB) ga (11-5,Bob P/HOST) If you use spaces it's not a problem, real tabs are the problem.... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Leave it out if not using hard tabs. (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Go ahead Jeff C. (11-2,MarkB) ok (11-18,STUART) HI! (11-5,Bob P/HOST) HI Stuart, formal con here. (11-26,JeffC) only want to point (11-26,JeffC) out that if rcs is under consideration then tags in the file header must include the $ character. GA (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Jeff - can you post the file header rules for RCS before we have to... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) many headers that may have to be changed? (11-26,JeffC) ok (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Thanks, we may decide to use it, if everyone agrees. (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Go ahead Randy. (11-1,Randy Morlen) I think that the TABS should be replaced by spaces. That way it will always look right. I inset by 3 in code. As to File (11-1,Randy Morlen) Headers, I can send you some samples that we have started using at work. See what you think. ga (11-26,JeffC) ? (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Sure, anything is up for discussion, if ya like the ones at work and... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) everyone likes em better it's ok with me. We really shouldn;t place... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) too much importance on the look as long as the info is there. (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Post them, ok Randy? (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Also, TABS vs. spaces... (11-34,Jim K.) help (11-1,Randy Morlen) ok, I will try. (11-34,Jim K.) (oops) (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Again, I'd rather not dictate, if you prefer spaces use them,... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) otherwise note the tab stops so others can read your stuff. (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Go Jeff C. (11-26,JeffC) (cancel ?) (11-5,Bob P/HOST) OK cancelled. (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Alright, anyone want to talk features? Any missing that you want?... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Implementation schedule? (11-2,MarkB) ? (11-26,JeffC) ? (11-34,Jim K.) ? (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Go Mark. (11-2,MarkB) A few points here... (11-2,MarkB) Out of doors areas rather than all in dungeon. (11-2,MarkB) Storyline, the amulet of Yendor is getting a bit dated... (11-2,MarkB) Sound and animation... (11-2,MarkB) I feel multi-party as phase 2 is pehaps too early.. (11-2,MarkB) did you get all those? GA (11-1,Randy Morlen) I'm heading out. Take care. (11-5,Bob P/HOST) OK Randy! (11-26,JeffC) ciao (11-2,MarkB) sayonara (11-5,Bob P/HOST) All sounds good to me... (11-34,Jim K.) bow (11-5,Bob P/HOST) let's post it for discussion since only the four of us are here. (11-5,Bob P/HOST) I feel sound can be started right away, but left foor 3+ release... (11-26,JeffC) ok, rather not operate w/o a quorum. (11-5,Bob P/HOST) since it "sounds" like a bear. (11-2,MarkB) Add to agenda for next con (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Canning storyline is fine with me, again post, right... next cons... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) agenda if we haven't come to a conclusion in section. (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Animation, lets here how you define that, I thought it was required... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) in the first release, i.e. to show the guy walking. (11-5,Bob P/HOST) (all this in post I mean). (11-5,Bob P/HOST) OK, next was Jeff C? (11-26,JeffC) I take it *all* of the original design is up for discussion? (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Yes, it was a year ago, not many of the originals are around (other... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) than myself and Mark Betz)... we want to do what we want, not what... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) someone else did. (11-5,Bob P/HOST) So go ahead and post your ideas, or you can bring it up now if you... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) wish. (11-26,JeffC) No, I think it's better to post them. (11-26,JeffC) GA (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Good, if you wanted to make your comment Jim K? (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Go ahead. (11-34,Jim K.) yes ... if any "extensions" are made for 2 players, they should not... (11-34,Jim K.) be limited to 2 ... multi should be available, either via IPX/SPX ... (11-34,Jim K.) (my preference) or NETBIOS (gag, ack!, ...) ... ga (11-26,JeffC) ? (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Why IPX/SPX? We're talking DOS, unless you're on a unix network. (11-34,Jim K.) IPX/SPX = Novell Netware, the dominant network protocol (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Ooops, I'm sorry, I thought it was Unix <nevermind> <g> (11-34,Jim K.) (that's TCP/IP <g>) (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Then yes, when we get to it I think that'd be the way to go. (11-26,JeffC) ok, I agree with Jim. To expand, if we do this with OOD, than the transport layer should be reasonably transparent. If anyone wants to (11-26,JeffC) implement a new transport, the required exported methods *should* be (11-26,JeffC) well defined. GA (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Hehe, oh yeah IPX, TCP, whatever it takes. (11-34,Jim K.) (= nod) (11-5,Bob P/HOST) OK. I don't have the apps hnady, I assume either of you can do... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) that? (11-34,Jim K.) i can IPX (11-5,Bob P/HOST) How tough is it? (11-26,JeffC) Well, I can't do networks. I can do mail. (11-34,Jim K.) weird, not tough. ipx=send and pray (datagram), spx=connection oriented (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Lets think about it, maybe how it could be wrapped in C++. I assume... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) you'll use Novells libs? (11-34,Jim K.) yep ... give me the info to be diseminated (sp?) & i'll do the lib (11-5,Bob P/HOST) OK, I think that may be for a later release. We'll table it for... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) now. (11-26,JeffC) ok (11-34,Jim K.) nod ... one note: this is for fixed dungeon layout, not random (11-2,MarkB) ! (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Right, unless someone can come up with a way to see who's on the... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) net, if first one on generate, if second query dungeon layout. (11-5,Bob P/HOST) go ahead MarkB (11-34,Jim K.) ! (11-2,MarkB) I seem to recall that the team last year did a lot of work on (11-2,MarkB) random dungeons across the net based on a fixed seed. They based (11-2,MarkB) it on Telengard. (11-2,MarkB) ga (11-5,Bob P/HOST) I didn't see that in the LIBS but a fixed seed would work nicely. (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Remember, guys, nets aren't my string point, go ahead Jim. (11-34,Jim K.) seeing who's on the net is trivial under netware (SAP) ... fixed seed? hmmmn ... (11-34,Jim K.) interesting stuff! ga (11-2,MarkB) ! (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Go mark (11-2,MarkB) Trouble with random dungeons is that it can cause problems for (11-2,MarkB) any storyline (11-2,MarkB) ga (11-34,Jim K.) true (11-26,JeffC) ! (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Yeah. Unless it's generated randomly with a list of must include... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) items/encounters. (11-5,Bob P/HOST) go Jeff (11-26,JeffC) Let's not forget that when we're talking here, we're impliclty (11-26,JeffC) assuming high availability. (11-5,Bob P/HOST) high availability? (11-34,Jim K.) ! (11-26,JeffC) That may not be possible. If we want to get into that sort of stuff, (11-26,JeffC) it may be desirable to consider other ways of distributing the game state. (11-26,JeffC) By high availability, I mean that nodes on the net are around (11-26,JeffC) whenever the game players "want" them to be. It assumes that (11-26,JeffC) someone doesn't add or subtract a node while the game's in progress. (11-26,JeffC) That sort of activity might require that the other nodes update (11-26,JeffC) each other with the game state. (11-26,JeffC) GA (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Yeah, a problem in distributed databases. (11-2,MarkB) Valid point (11-34,Jim K.) ! (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Go Jim (11-34,Jim K.) my point was that if we're gonna support 2 players [modem (11-34,Jim K.) we must support n players .. of course, multiple players must constantly (11-34,Jim K.) update each other re position info ... anyone ever play Infinity Complex (11-26,JeffC) ? (11-34,Jim K.) on a bbs? it handled this situation neatly. ga (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Big problem, I'd be happy with modemonly play. I think the bbs... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) works because it's cetralized not distributed. (11-5,Bob P/HOST) go Jeff (11-26,JeffC) Modem play is a special case of a larger problem. (11-26,JeffC) I'm wondering if rechack needs to be real-time. (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Right, but we know we're limited to at max two players, or am I... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) missing something? (11-2,MarkB) ! (11-34,Jim K.) ! (11-5,Bob P/HOST) We were thinking graphical, real-time CRPG, whats your idea? (11-26,JeffC) Ok, I wasn't aware that we'd limited it to 2 players. *never mind*. (11-26,JeffC) GA (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Jeff - no we hadn't but I assumed modem to modem would be two... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) players. (11-5,Bob P/HOST) go ahead Mark. (11-26,JeffC) ? (11-2,MarkB) re a distributed net. Couldn't we work some kind of client/server model? (11-2,MarkB) ga (11-34,Jim K.) (hehe) (11-5,Bob P/HOST) We could, but then we'd have to choose the server, or write an NLM... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) or something like that as the server. (11-5,Bob P/HOST) or write something that runs on a bbs as the server (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Go ahead Jeff. (11-2,MarkB) we couldn't really work true real- time then (11-26,JeffC) Yes mark: that's what attracted me to this in the first place. Bob: I'm not sure that we need a fixed client/server role. Part of the (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Did I miss you Jim K? (11-34,Jim K.) <g> (11-26,JeffC) problem (solution) may be that the game "votes". The winnder (11-26,JeffC) is assigned a token that identifies it as "historian". The historian (11-26,JeffC) is then responsible for making sure the other nodes are updated (11-26,JeffC) with the game's state. (11-26,JeffC) GA (11-2,MarkB) ! (11-5,Bob P/HOST) But you were thinking via E-Mail. Actually I like that, one guy... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) becomes the server, can't we do that in real-time, what happens when... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) he disconnects? (11-34,Jim K.) ! (11-22,dan r. joel) ? (11-26,JeffC) ? (11-5,Bob P/HOST) go Mark (11-2,MarkB) I'd guess if the 'historian' disconnects, you hold a fresh election. (11-26,JeffC) exactly (11-2,MarkB) Problem is if he disconnects uncleanly. (11-2,MarkB) ga (11-5,Bob P/HOST) If he times out you hold the election. (11-26,JeffC) ! (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Go Jim (11-34,Jim K.) sorry was tapin a kidney ... my point was that the modem stuff would be... (11-34,Jim K.) basically exchanging position info (and maybe attack info) ... if this ... (11-34,Jim K.) was so, then this could be extended into n-space for multi players ... ga (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Ok, I think we should also post ideas about this, kind of tough to... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) hash it out here. (11-34,Jim K.) nod (11-26,JeffC) ok (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Go ahead Jeff, can you also post your ideas about non real-time... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) game? (11-2,MarkB) methinks it's bed time, if I can get to sleep now the sun has risen. (11-5,Bob P/HOST) I think everyone was leaning towards real-time. (11-34,Jim K.) wave markB (11-5,Bob P/HOST) OK Mark, thanks for coming (11-2,MarkB) I do think we want to try and go real time though, It's nore state (11-2,MarkB) of the art. (11-26,JeffC) Yes, my point to mark is that the *whole* (11-26,JeffC) thing is under transaction protection. If the server (11-26,JeffC) disconnects, it's work may need to be recovered by others. (11-26,JeffC) GA (11-34,Jim K.) !! (11-26,JeffC) Goodmorning Mark! (11-2,MarkB) Bye folks (11-5,Bob P/HOST) bye Mark. (11-5,Bob P/HOST) I don't follow, what is the transaction control mechanism? (11-26,JeffC) I wnat to work on this off-line. I wasn't sure (11-26,JeffC) that there would be any interest in it, so I wasn't fully (11-26,JeffC) prepared. I'm hashing together random brain drool that (11-26,JeffC) I've had since I signed yp a few days ago. I'd rather not (11-26,JeffC) waste everyone's time. GA (11-34,Jim K.) ! (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Jeff - ok, that's fine. If we go real-time are you still... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) interested? (11-26,JeffC) !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (11-5,Bob P/HOST) I guess that's a yes?? (11-26,JeffC) yes (11-5,Bob P/HOST) hehe, sorry, I thought maybe you had your heart set on the CIS mail... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) thing you had sent me email about. (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Jim, go ahead. (11-26,JeffC) Well, I do. But I'm also willing to write up the whole thing and submit it (11-34,Jim K.) if we abandon client/server in favor of peer-to-peer, then the transport is less important ... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) OK, I won't comment anymore until I see what you propose. (11-34,Jim K.) (i.e., modem vs network) and there is no "server" to go ... (11-34,Jim K.) down ... ga (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Jim - I'm a little lost, how do you update everyone about your new... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) position, or to the fact that you;ve just killed the green slime? (11-26,JeffC) ! (11-34,Jim K.) ok: position info and "death" info can be sent. This reqires a fixed or repro... (11-34,Jim K.) duceable dungeon, tho ... basically we would define ... (11-34,Jim K.) a protocol that would be transmitted among all nodes ... there would be ... (11-34,Jim K.) an op code (position = ... or i just killed the macha at ... ) ... (11-34,Jim K.) how would it be handled in 2-player???? ga (11-5,Bob P/HOST) same way, except your not broadcasting, and it's easier to send ack... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) that you've got what was sent and you're up to date... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) anyway you two know more about this than I do, if you say you can do... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) it I'm all for it. (11-34,Jim K.) but IPX is inherently send/ack oriented ... and using SAP a lot ... (11-34,Jim K.) of the complexity can be overcome (11-34,Jim K.) ga (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Oh! Ok, sounds good then, (11-5,Bob P/HOST) I see what you mean, go ahead Jeff (11-26,JeffC) I agree with jim. It's important to note that the peer-to-peer (11-26,JeffC) stuff is the best fit so far (IMHO). (11-26,JeffC) I'd also like to note that, even in real-time, the design (11-26,JeffC) execludes trans-oceanic players. To this end, I'm not sure (11-26,JeffC) I agree that a reproducible dungeon is entirely desirable. (11-34,Jim K.) ! (11-26,JeffC) I could see a situation where the dungeon changes as information (11-5,Bob P/HOST) How so? (11-26,JeffC) is received from other players. Obviously it's not always possible (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Wouldn't that be another part of the protocol? (11-26,JeffC) to back a player out of a certain situation. In that case, there would (11-26,JeffC) have to be some arbitration mechanism. However, in the situation of (11-26,JeffC) multi-level play, the concept of a static dungeon may be more limiting (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Go ahead Jim (11-26,JeffC) than we want (in a networked environment). For 2 person m<->m play, it (11-26,JeffC) may be just fine. GA (11-34,Jim K.) i agree that a repro/fixed dungeon might not be advisable, for a diff ... (11-34,Jim K.) reason: boredom. One of the reasons I like hack/nethack so much is that ... (11-34,Jim K.) each game is different. We may want to consider some of the trade-offs ... (11-34,Jim K.) of MP versus "game freshness" ... ga (11-26,JeffC) ! (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Interesting point, how does Nethack handle it? (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Go Jeff (11-26,JeffC) I agree with Jim. Game freshness is very important to xHACK. (11-26,JeffC) One of the things we might be able to add to it is the concept of the (11-26,JeffC) transition from online to offline to online brings a new (11-26,JeffC) maze into play.GA (11-34,Jim K.) i like! fwiw i'm not sure where the "net" in nethack comes from. AS far as ... (11-34,Jim K.) i can tell, it's single player ... ga (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Never played, always thought it was multi-player networked. we have... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) the source. (11-34,Jim K.) newest source is N/A on CIS yet ... (11-34,Jim K.) (ga) (11-26,JeffC) ? (11-5,Bob P/HOST) yeah supposed to be uploaded soon. (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Jeff ga (11-26,JeffC) I suppose it's too late to ask, but what vendor/version of C++ are we (11-26,JeffC) using? (11-26,JeffC) GA (11-5,Bob P/HOST) I'd like to see both BC++ 3.x and MSC++ 7.0. (11-5,Bob P/HOST) or TC++ 3.0 (11-26,JeffC) Ok, MSC++ is fine by me. What's NETHACK written in? (11-34,Jim K.) DK (11-5,Bob P/HOST) C, but I've never looked at the source either <g> (11-5,Bob P/HOST) I think <g> (11-34,Jim K.) It is C with overlays <gag!>, prob with ASM (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Sheesh. (11-26,JeffC) ? (11-5,Bob P/HOST) There's another point, this thing cold get pretty big. (11-5,Bob P/HOST) go Jeff (11-34,Jim K.) Nethack is HUGE compared to hack ... <g> (11-26,JeffC) Are we targeting Windoze? If so, there's the DLL route. Also: what's the standard for ASM in rehack? GA (11-5,Bob P/HOST) I'd love to see a Windows version, but I think that would generate... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) alot of disinterest among the Gamers <g>. (11-26,JeffC) ? (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Maybe at a future point, we could do something with the interface... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) and event portions. (11-5,Bob P/HOST) I'd think that we'd have to use masm compatible assembler, no ideal. (11-5,Bob P/HOST) go jeff (11-26,JeffC) Ok, I thought we'd need assembly for the graphics. The reason (11-5,Bob P/HOST) HI Eric, still formal (11-5,Bob P/HOST) right, we do have an icon push button bar for the different options,... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) sorry, go ahead (11-26,JeffC) I thought WIN was that the original design included much icon and (11-26,JeffC) button stuff. Rather than re-inventing the wheel.... However, I also (11-34,Jim K.) ? (11-26,JeffC) feel the need for speed. FWIW, MSC v7. has support for virtual memory, keeping in mind that it was also written by microsoft... GFA (11-26,JeffC) GA (11-5,Bob P/HOST) The way I look at it is a low level graphics lib either mode 13 or... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) X, C++ OOP, with some assembler, next to that a low level event... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) library keyboard and mouse, built on top of those two a windowing... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) library supporting windows, buttons, icons and some text... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) input/output. (11-26,JeffC) ? (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Shouldn't be too tough <g>. (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Go Jeff (11-26,JeffC) X-Windows? (11-34,Jim K.) ? (11-5,Bob P/HOST) er did I miss Jim? (11-26,JeffC) ga (11-34,Jim K.) <gg> (11-5,Bob P/HOST) I guess the three areas mentioned are the ones that'd need to be... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) ported, we could probably support DOS, X and MS-Win, go Jim (11-15,Patrick Reilly) Bob, is this a REHACK discussion? (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Yes Patrick, talking network issues now. (11-34,Jim K.) re: hardware: what platform are we targeting? 286+ (very reasonable), 386+ (fairly reasonable) ? ga (11-5,Bob P/HOST) good question, I'd think 286+. What if we run out of address space... (11-34,Jim K.) EMS? XMS? (11-5,Bob P/HOST) in the game, do we go protected mode 386? all things to think... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) about. (11-26,JeffC) ? (11-34,Jim K.) ?? (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Go Jeff (11-26,JeffC) I'd suggest we agree on memory management before we get too far (11-26,JeffC) down the road. I'd vote for DPMI; we can run it under DOS/Win; it (11-5,Bob P/HOST) We could all go out and get Zortech (11-5,Bob P/HOST) OK, and that wouldn't have to be a library, just overload new? (11-5,Bob P/HOST) I'm talking interface, not implementation (11-26,JeffC) removes the need to think about (Bob: 386Max as well) EMS/XMS stuff. (11-26,JeffC) FWIW, the crowd in the CLIPPER forum have been raving about Exospace. It's a linker that works well with memory intensive applications (11-34,Jim K.) $$? (11-5,Bob P/HOST) How do you guys feel about calling it a night? (11-34,Jim K.) (yawn) nod (11-26,JeffC) As far as I can tell, the DPMI spec is modeled as an API. Jim: I don't (11-26,JeffC) know the cost, but as far as I can see, it's the memory management (11-26,JeffC) technique thats getting good marks... (11-26,JeffC) GA (11-26,JeffC) Yes, let's call it a night - I need to get some dinner. (11-26,JeffC) GA (11-34,Jim K.) cool - if its affordable, i could use it in other stuff (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Yeah, it's pretty much the standard vs VCPI or whatever (11-26,JeffC) Yes, I think VCPI is dying a slow death. (11-5,Bob P/HOST) OK, then lets hold it here and discuss the rest in section 11. (11-26,JeffC) Fine by me... (11-5,Bob P/HOST) thanks for coming guys, think we had a pretty prductive night. (11-34,Jim K.) wave all ... i agree ... goodnight!! (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Night Jim. (11-26,JeffC) ciao, see you on the net! (11-5,Bob P/HOST) Bye Jeff!