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$Unique_ID{bob01218} $Pretitle{} $Title{Nixon Tapes, The April 17, 1973. (12:35pm - 2:20pm) - Part 1/2} $Subtitle{} $Author{Various} $Affiliation{} $Subject{nixon pres ehrlichman dean haldeman unintelligible say hr that's john} $Date{1974} $Log{} Title: Nixon Tapes, The Author: Various Date: 1974 April 17, 1973. (12:35pm - 2:20pm) - Part 1/2 Meeting: President Nixon, H.R. Haldeman, John Ehrlichman, and Ronald Ziegler, Oval Office ------------------------- Material not related to Presidential actions deleted ------------------------- Pres. Nixon: Where did we come out? J. Ehrlichman: Well, we got two things, we got a press plan but it rests upon some decisions that you have to make on sort of an action plan. Pres. Nixon: Right, alright. J. Ehrlichman: And, I just finished an hour with Colson who came over very concerned and said that he had to see you. That the message he had for you that he had to and wanted to explain in length is why Dean had to be dealt with summarily. His partner has a tie in with the U.S. Attorney's office and they seem to know what is going on there. Very simply put, I think his argument will be that the City of Washington, generally knows that Dean had little or no access to you. Pres. Nixon: True, that's quite right. Dean was just a messenger. J. Ehrlichman: That knowledge imputed to us is knowledge imputed to you and if Dean is (unintelligible) and testified that he imputed great quantities of knowledge to us, and is allowed to get away with that, that, that will seriously impair the Presidency ultimately. Cause it will be very easy to argue - that all you have to do is read Dean's testimony - look at the previous relationships - and there she goes! So, he says the key to this is that Dean should not get immunity. That's what he wants to tell you. Pres. Nixon: Well, he told me that, and I couldn't agree more. J. Ehrlichman: Now he says you have total and complete control over whether Dean gets immunity through Petersen. Now that's what he says. He said he would be glad to come in and tell you how to do it, why, and all that stuff. Pres. Nixon: I don't want Colson to come in here. I feel uneasy about that, his ties and everything. I realize that Dean is the (unintelligible), Dean, of course, let's look at what he has, his (unintelligible) and so forth about (unintelligible) go popping off about everything else that is done in the government you know, the bugging of the J. Ehrlichman: Well, the question is, I suppose is which way he is liable to do it most. Pres. Nixon: First of all, if be gets immunity he'll want to pay just as little price as he can. J. Ehrlichman: Well, the price that - the quid-pro-quo for the immunity is to reach one through us to all of us. Colson argues that if he is not given immunity, then he has even more incentive to go light on his own malefactions and he will have to climb up and he will have to defend himself. Pres. Nixon: Now when he talked to me I said, "Now I understand John. I understand the tactic of all three resigning." I said, "all offered to resign." I told him that, you understand. I told him that you and John had offered to resign so he's aware of that. HR Haldeman: Well, have they told him that the price of his immunity is that if we resign they'll give him immunity? Do they feel that makes their case? Or, does he have to give them evidence? Pres. Nixon: I don't know. He's going to have a tough time with that. J. Ehrlichman: Well, to go on. My action plan would involve Pres. Nixon: What would your plan be? J. Ehrlichman: My action plan would involve your suspension or firing of Dean in the course of a historical explanation of your reliance on the Dean Report - his apparent unreliability - Pres. Nixon: But going out - you see the Garment guy got him in today - Garment says it's all going to come out anyway (unintelligible) etc., etc., etc., with the U.S. Attorneys. That's what Petersen's view is, of course. J. Ehrlichman: What's that? The Garment deal? Pres. Nixon: That it is all going to come out, and Haldeman and Ehrlichman are going to resign. He told me that on Sunday. I asked him again yesterday. I said, "Now look it. That's pretty damned flimsy." He said, "Yes, I'm not talking about legal exposure. I'm just talking about the fact that as this stuff comes out they're going to be eaten, but eaten alive. Mr. President, the clamour is going to be something you cannot stand." I said, "Would it be better for them to get leave or something?" And he said, "No, this is the government. Rather to sit there and later as a result of this tidbit and that tidbit and so forth - he lied and I don't lie and so forth. Haldeman against Dean and Haldeman against Ehrlichman, Ehrlichman against Dean, who to hell is lying?" He said, "Definitely they'll say, (expletive removed), Mr. President, can't you let these fellas -" Now that's my point. That's what he said. J. Ehrlichman: I understand. Pres. Nixon: That's an argument to be made. He said that to Rogers last night and that, of course, is Garment's argument. And I guess Rose, Chappie Rose agree with that, or whatever. My problem is, at the present time, I just don't want to have to talk to each of these side-line people individually, 'cause I don't know. I think some - Garment came in and was talking about the (unintelligible) story in the Times. Petersen told me about it last night. He said (unintelligible) had called. And I said, "That must have leaked out of your place." He said, "No, it didn't." Could it leaked out of here? J. Ehrlichman: Could it have been Garment? HR Haldeman: Could have been, but it isn't at all likely. It's a Justice. Pres. Nixon: But you see - what you say about Dean, I said to him (unintelligible). He supports the Garment plan. He's talked to Garment and Garment has talked to Dean. J. Ehrlichman: Dean has talked to everybody in this place. Pres. Nixon: I told him not to talk to him any more. But you see Dean - let's see, what the hell - what's he got with regard to the President? He came and talked to me, as you will recall, about the need for $120,000 for clemencies - J. Ehrlichman: You told me that the other day, I didn't know that before. HR Haldeman: But so what? Pres. Nixon: What? HR Haldeman: So what? Pres. Nixon: I said, what in the world John, I mean, I said John you can't (unintelligible) on this short notice. What's it cost (unintelligible) I sort of laughed and said, "Well, I guess you could get that." J. Ehrlichman: Now is he holding that over your head? Saying Pres. Nixon: No, No, No, I don't think Dean would go so far as to get into any conversation he had with the President - even Dean I don't think. HR Haldeman: Well, he can't - you have both executive privilege in conversation with him. Pres. Nixon: Let's call it executive privilege, but on the other hand you've got to figure that Dean could put out something with somebody else. Pres. Nixon: That's the only thing I can think of be's told me but I've not got him in yet to ask about this thing about you - Liddy (unintelligible) J. Ehrlichman: Oh well, they'll be one of those a day. Pres. Nixon: Well, the point is can we survive it? J. Ehrlichman: Well - Pres. Nixon: Can Haldeman and Ehrlichman survive it. The point that I - Let me say the. I know your (unintelligible) It's a hell of a lot different that John Dean. I know that as far as you're concerned, you'll go out and throw yourselves on a damned sword. I'm aware of that. I'm trying to think the thing through with that in mind because, damn it, you're the two most valuable members on the staff. I know that. The problem is, you're the two most loyal and the two most honest. We don't have to go into that. You know how I feel about that. It's not bull - it's the truth. The problem we got here is this. I do not want to be in a position where the damned public clamour makes, as it did with Eisenhower, with Adams, makes it necessary or calls - to have Bob come in one day and say, "Well Mr. President, the public - blah blah blah - I'm going to leave." Now that's the real problem on this damned thing and I don't think that kicking Dean out of here is going to do it. Understand, I'm not ruling out kicking him out. But I think you got to figure what to hell does Dean know. What kind of blackmail does he have? I don't know what all he does - J. Ehrlichman: Let me make a suggestion. Pres. Nixon: Alright. J. Ehrlichman: You've got Dean coming in to you saying, "I've talked to the U.S. Attorney and I've told him a lot of things that I did wrong." So you put him on leave. He isn't charged with anything yet, but he's said them to you. Pres. Nixon: I asked him that and he said I'll go on leave along with Haldeman and Ehrlichman. J. Ehrlichman: Well, he's not in any position to bargain with you on that. Now when the time comes that I'm charged with anything wrong - Pres. Nixon: Well, John, you have been by a U.S. Attorney and by Petersen to me. Petersen is not charging you legal - J. Ehrlichman: That's what I mean. See I understand the difference. You see Dean has broken the law on the face of his (unintelligible) to you - Pres. Nixon: Petersen has said to me, he says that there is - because of the evidence that has come in here - that Haldeman and Ehrlichman should (unintelligible) now I'm faced with that damned hardship. ------------------------- Material not related to Presidential actions deleted ------------------------- Pres. Nixon: Hmmm. Say you get there. So you don't get immunity. Colson thinks it's in order not to give immunity, huh? J. Ehrlichman: Right. Pres. Nixon: And tell him. Then he would say, "Well, what are you going to do about Haldeman and Ehrlichman?" J. Ehrlichman: What you have to say is nobody - HR Haldeman: He doesn't have to say that. Pres. Nixon: Yes, he does. J. Ehrlichman: What you have to say is nobody in this White House - Pres. Nixon: Dean isn't going to say it. I mean - Petersen - Petersen's the guy that can give immunity. HR Haldeman: Well, tell him not to give us immunity either. Pres. Nixon: (unintelligible) that's a problem. Now, come on! HR Haldeman: Well, see, it's none of his business whether you suspend us or not. That's your decision. Pres. Nixon: I know it is. The point is - let me put it candidly. If I do not suspend you, he will probably give him immunity. That's the problem (unintelligible) unbearable. If you do take a leave, I think he will - it's possible - well, it's possible that he would (unintelligible) even if you do leave - that he would (unintelligible) I agree. But Dean is the guy that he's got to use for the purpose of making the case HR Haldeman: Yes, but, even Ehrlichman, which he already admits he doesn't have a case on (unintelligible) significance. Pres. Nixon: Well, he says legally, yes, he does. In the case of Haldeman, it'll discuss - the Strachan things have - determine a lot to do with what Strachan says and what Kalmbach says - the 350 thing and that sort of thing. HR Haldeman: Kalmbach has no relation to me on that. J. Ehrlichman: That ah - Pres. Nixon: Have you thought when you say before it gets to (unintelligible) thing out of the way. Have you given any thought to what the line ought to - I don't mean all - but a line, on raising the money for these defendants? Because both of you were aware of what was going on you see - the raising of the money - you were aware of it, right? J. Ehrlichman: Yes, sir. Pres. Nixon: And you were aware - You see, you can't go in and say I didn't know what in hell he wanted the $250 for. HR Haldeman: No - I've given a great deal of thought (unintelligible) Pres. Nixon: Well I wonder. I'm not - look - I'm concerned about the legal thing Bob, and so forth. You say that our purpose was to keep them from talking to the press. J. Ehrlichman: Well, that was my purpose - and before I get too far out on that, ah, I want to talk to an attorney and find out what the law is - which I have not yet done. Pres. Nixon: Right! HR Haldeman: That's just what I want to do too. This is only a draft. Pres. Nixon: Right. Good. The only point is I, I think it is not only that but you see that involves all our people. That's what I feel - it involves Kalmbach - J. Ehrlichman: Well. Pres. Nixon: And what to hell Kalmbach was told. J. Ehrlichman: Well, Mr. President, when the truth and fact of this is known, that building next door is full of people who knew that money was being raised for these people. Pres. Nixon: EOB? J. Ehrlichman: Yes, sir, just full of them. Pres. Nixon: Many who know, but there were not so many actors. In other words, there's a difference between actors and noticees. J. Ehrlichman: O.K. Well, apparently not, because I'm not an actor, ah - HR Haldeman: The question there is testimony, I suppose. Pres. Nixon: I'm not trying to make any case - J. Ehrlichman: No, but - Pres. Nixon: I'm not stating a case. J. Ehrlichman: No, but I want you to think very critically about the difference here between knowledge of the general transactions going on, on the one hand, and being an affirmative actor on the other, because that's the difference between Dean and me. Now on this business on whether Dean should have immunity, I think you have to ask yourself really, the basic question, whether anybody in the White House who does wrong, ought to get immunity, no matter how many other people he implicates. Pres. Nixon: Strachan included? J. Ehrlichman: Anybody - anybody. I just question whether in the orderly administration of justice, it looks right for anybody in the White House to get immunity. Pres. Nixon: I could call Petersen in (unintelligible) basic (unintelligible) public statement out at 3:00 p.m. is that right? HR Haldeman: Well, yes - but you don't have to. Pres. Nixon: Well, Garment says we have to. HR Haldeman: Well, yes, but isn't that what Garment said yesterday, the day before, and the week before that? Garment (unintelligible) - Pres. Nixon: Well, understand, I'm not panicking myself but they tell me there seems to be a considerable feeling that a - J. Ehrlichman: Well, I agree with you. Pres. Nixon: (unintelligible) LaRue's been called, Strachan's been called, Dean might put up a story of the times. You never know. We don't need a Haldeman/Ehrlichman. J. Ehrlichman: Yea, but you see it's typical Dean position. If Dean is treated different from us, he will go out and say he's a scapegoat for higher-ups. HR Haldeman: That figures cause he knows Ostrow and Ostrow is the guy that covers Justice. Pres. Nixon: I see and Petersen told me that. He told about conversations with that wife of (unintelligible) apparently sat at some table with (unintelligible) libber they addressed, and the top guy, Rosenblatt or something like that, at the Post was talking to somebody else of the staff. "The Press is going to get out in front - we've got a hell of alot more - we've just held it back." They might be bluffing - I would doubt that they are at this point. HR Haldeman: I would think they probably have more, but I would guess what they have more of is in the Committee. I don't think they got much more in the White House, unless, I don't know what it could be unless they got Colson stuff - that would be the only area. Pres. Nixon: (unintelligible) HR Haldeman: Yeah, That's the only area where you have any jeopardy in the White House. Pres. Nixon: Let me say with regard to Colson - and you can say that I'm way ahead of them on that - I've got the message on that and that he feels that Dean - but believe me I've been thinking about that all day yesterday - whether Dean should be given immunity. The point is - I don't know that it can happen, but I can call Petersen in and say he cannot be given immunity, but nobody on the White House staff can be given immunity. And I - whether he'll carry that order out - that's going to be an indicator that that's Dean and (unintelligible). And then what do I say about Dean. Do I tell him that he goes? J. Ehrlichman: Well, you see, the thing that precipitated Colson's coming over is that he found that Ban was still here. You see, Dick Howard called Chuck and went through that business of the FBI men sending him into the arms of Dean. So, Colson called and says you've got an ass at your bosom over there, and so, today he checked again, apparently with Howard, and discovered that Dean was still here and he called and said, "I've got to see you." He came in and he says, "You guys are just out of your minds," and said he wanted to see the President - He was fit to be tied about It. Pres. Nixon: Colson was? J. Ehrlichman: Yes, because he thinks - Pres. Nixon: But you see if I say, "Dean, you leave today," he'd go out and say, "Well the President's covering up for Ehrlichman and Haldeman" alright. There you are. Because he knows what I know." That's what he would say. I tried to put - I mean - Pres. Nixon: I'm trying to look and see - John - what to hell we are really up against. First it was Liddy (unintelligible) scapegoat, now John Dean is. HR Haldeman: Well, the answer to that is that if he said it publicly, the President is not covering up for anybody, and will not tolerate - Pres. Nixon: The way he's put it to me, Bob, very cute, as I have said, "Son of a gun (unintelligible) in view of what you have told me, if Haldeman and Ehrlichman are willing to resign, and so forth, I too, will resign." In other words, he basically put the shoe on the other - which of course is what led me to the conclusion that that's exactly what his attorney told him to do. If he can get Haldeman and Ehrlichman, that some way gets him (unintelligible) that's what you have here. J. Ehrlichman: Yeah, because then that will be argued back to the U.S. Attorney, "Well you see, the President thought enough of Dean's charges to let these guys go." Pres. Nixon: I was trying to indicate to him that both of you had indicated a willingness to - in the event - that you know what I mean. J. Ehrlichman: And here's a guy that comes in and in effect, confesses to you the commission of crimes. Pres. Nixon: And charges you J. Ehrlichman: And charges us, that's right. Pres. Nixon: That's right. And I said, "Now wait - these charges are not - " and you see he also has an alibi in the U.S. Attorney - J. Ehrlichman: Small wonders. Pres. Nixon: He's asked (inaudible) Attorney General that the President should act - J. Ehrlichman: Well, you see my point and - Pres. Nixon: Yeah J. Ehrlichman: And you'd have to obviously, call us when - Pres. Nixon: Go ahead. Go ahead on the action - J. Ehrlichman: Well, it would involve the suspension because it would involve a recounting of how you happened to get into the personal investigation of this by reason of Dean's being unable to reduce his full report to writing for you. And that that rang a bell, and you personally turned to and have spent a great deal of your time in the last several weeks on this - and have seen dramatic progress in the Grand Jury in the last several days. That would be Step 1. Now in addition to that you would say the Ervin Committee has come up with a good set of ground rules while do provide us with - Pres. Nixon: Well, did you work that out? J. Ehrlichman: Well, you'd say this. I think you'll find that they are going to go on television under oath, pretty much regardless, but, the ground rules give you a toe hold. They do provide for Executive Session. Pres. Nixon: Is Executive Session considered executive privilege? J. Ehrlichman: And they will consider - Pres. Nixon: And otherwise they will go into open hearings. J. Ehrlichman: Yes, but there again executive privilege is reserved. Pres. Nixon: Executive privilege is reserved, fine. HR Haldeman: At this point, the way we're in the soup now, we can lose nothing by going. Pres. Nixon: That's right. HR Haldeman: I think we may gain. Pres. Nixon: That's right, I couldn't agree more. So if you can prepare me with at least that much, I'll agree. That I can say that today. HR Haldeman: Well, that's a hell of a bomb shelter right there. Pres. Nixon: Yes, it is. But, let's get on with the rest of it. J. Ehrlichman: That's it. That's all I have for today. But it gets you into the case - its you leading it. It notices the progress and the Grand Jury as related to your efforts and it doesn't say what they are. Pres. Nixon: Well, the point is though the story today is that John Dean is suspended, but - and then John Dean is going to be out there plastering - but saying the President has indicated that Haldeman and Ehrlichman too might go. HR Haldeman: Let me suggest a different process, which is that you don't suspend John Dean, but that you instruct John Dean that he is not to come to work any more. He is in effect suspended, but not publicly suspended. Pres. Nixon: He'll say, "What about Haldeman and Ehrlichman?" HR Haldeman: I would suggest to you that you do the same with us. And I was going to suggest, I was going to request that action. For this reason - I've got to speak for myself. John's got to speak for himself. I have now concluded that my course is that I must put out my story. I must put it out in total and in my words, before I go to the - I don't know about the Grand Jury - before I - Pres. Nixon: Before you go to the Senate Committee? HR Haldeman: go to the Senate Committee. I'm going to have to put it out there anyway. Pres. Nixon: I don't think you're ever going to get to the Senate Committee. I don't think the Committee Hearings will ever go forward. HR Haldeman: I do. I don't think there is any chance of them not going forward. You think because of legal case (unintelligible) O.K. Great if they don't. Then maybe I never tell my story. But my view is that at some point in time I'm going to have to tell it. Pres. Nixon: But you - the way - I would reserve, Bob, the right to tell that story until you felt you did have to go to the Committee Hearings. See what I mean? Or, unless you got to a point where you were nibbled to death. HR Haldeman: That's right. Or until a partial charge comes up. For instance, if the Grand Jury leaks or the Justice people leak the Strachan stuff, then that forces my hand. Pres. Nixon: John? J. Ehrlichman: Well, subject to attorney's advice. HR Haldeman: That's what I was going to say. I will not make this statement until I have worked it out. Pres. Nixon: Bill said he just couldn't remember. HR Haldeman: Well, we've got some leads. We're going to start on today, so we've got that, but my interest is served and I will also argue that the better off I come out of this, the better off you come out of it - vis-a-vis me. In other words, anything I do to my interest is to your interest. Pres. Nixon: Let me ask you this, John. J. Ehrlichman: What's that? Pres. Nixon: You said that you ought not to come for awhile. On what basis? I mean, we do this on an oral basis. HR Haldeman: What I'm doing now is requesting you, on an oral basis - Pres. Nixon: Yeah. HR Haldeman: to not expect me to carry out any duties for awhile because (inaudible) perfect this and get it ready - Pres. Nixon: Where would you do it, at home or in the office here? HR Haldeman: I can do it wherever you want me to. I think I ought to do it in the office, but - Pres. Nixon: Alright. J. Ehrlichman: If Dean says, "What about Haldeman and Ehrlichman?" You say "John, I'm talking to you about you. Now I'll take care of them my own way. I'm not going to have you bargaining with me." HR Haldeman: I don't think the President can be in the position of making a deal with John Dean on anything. J. Ehrlichman: Yeah. "I'll go if they go." Supposing I said, "I won't go unless Henry Kissinger goes!" Yeah, it's ridiculous. Let me speak to this. I have pretty much unplugged myself of my day- to-day stuff, because with this kind of stuff going on you just can't think about anything else. Pres. Nixon: Of course, it's been a little hard for me to also. J. Ehrlichman: Sure. Now, I have a need to get into all kinds of records and my date books and these are volumes and volumes of correspondence and stuff. If I couldn't come into the office, I probably couldn't prepare a defense. Pres. Nixon: What about Dean coming in? Why not him? (unintelligible) I think I've told Dean he's to have nothing more to do with this case. J. Ehrlichman: Well, he's sure not following out your orders, if that's the case. Pres. Nixon: You see what I mean. J. Ehrlichman: Now, you'd have another problem, and I don't know what's been going on in the last week or so, but I imagine he's carted stuff out of here by the bale. I just don't know. HR Haldeman: You don't know that. J. Ehrlichman: I certainly - HR Haldeman: If you suspend him or tell him to leave in any way, you also move in to take care of his files. Pres. Nixon: Could I say this, "John, both Haldeman and Ehrlichman have both requested the opportunity to be relieved of their duties - I mean their main duties, so that they can concentrate on this matter to prepare for their appearance before the Grand Jury." Could I say that? J. Ehrlichman: Sure, well - Pres. Nixon: Wait. HR Haldeman: The trap you're falling into there is that you're admitting to Dean that you regard the allegations that he has raised against us as of the same validity of his own criminal admission to you. J. Ehrlichman: If that's the case then maybe that's what you should say. Pres. Nixon: No, no, no, there are two different levels. J. Ehrlichman: Then that's the way it ought to be put. He brought in a lot of silly garbage about me which doesn't add up to a nickel's worth of a law suit. Ah, he's come in and told you that he's been involved in all kinds of stuff. It seems to be a very different qualitative problem. Here again, I hate to argue my case - it's very awkward. Pres. Nixon: You should argue, John. I wonder if whether or not I trapped myself (unintelligible) about this business when I said, "Look, John," I said, "both Haldeman and Ehrlichman have offered to resign." J. Ehrlichman: Well, I offered to resign at your total and sole discretion. You don't have to have a reason - Pres. Nixon: (expletive removed) (unintelligible) Then I said - J. Ehrlichman: Well - Pres. Nixon: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Then Petersen said, he said, "We've got to have corroborative testimony." So you see what I mean? J. Ehrlichman: Yeah. Pres. Nixon: Before we could get - Let me put it this way. He realizes that before he could try to give Dean immunity he's got to have corroborative testimony on the value of Dean's evidence. That's what he's trying to get at the present time. That's why he was calling Strachan, Colson, Kalmbach, et al. The purpose of it being, John, to get corroborative evidence that would say, well, Dean's evidence is so valuable as far as other people are concerned, that we can therefore give him immunity. Now I'm not a criminal lawyer, but does that make any sense? J. Ehrlichman: I don't know. Pres. Nixon: But you see what his tactic is? J. Ehrlichman: I put it. - I don't know what the previous commitment to him is, but he's not being fired, he's not being suspended, he's being directed to stay away from the office. Pres. Nixon: I might put it that since you are talking to a U.S. Attorney. If I could put it that way to him I might be able to make some hay. Bring the U. S. Attorney in. And I'll say don't give him immunity. J. Ehrlichman: From a public policy standpoint. Pres. Nixon: Yeah, (unintelligible) And I'll tell you what Petersen did tell me. He did say this much. I said, "what about Dean?" and he said, "Well, we haven't made a deal with him yet." I think I told you about thin J. Ehrlichman: Yep. Pres. Nixon: I said, "Why do you have to make a deal?" And he says "Well, he wants to make a deal." And I said, "What do you mean, let him off?" He said, "Well, that's what you do, Mr. President." I said, "Well," I said, "you're sort of (unintelligible)." We've had some real good talks. I mentioned this to Rogers. Rogers just shook his head and said. "That's right." And I said, "They have both said that." And I said "I will certainly have it under consideration." J. Ehrlichman: Now there's another matter. If this is awkward for you, the best thing you should do is get rid of me, you know, once and for all. Pres. Nixon: Yep. J. Ehrlichman: But if it is anything short of that - Pres. Nixon: Yeah. J. Ehrlichman: Then it seems to be that you have to take into account qualitative differences. Pres. Nixon: Yep. J. Ehrlichman: And if you don't want to make a formal suspension, then the thing to say is, "I want you to stay away from the office. Just don't come around, because I know everything that happens in this building is being funneled directly to the U. S. Attorney through you, or I have reason to think that, and I cannot have that situation." Now that's the way - Yeah. Pres. Nixon: So he isn't going to do it simply on the basis. He isn't giving Dean immunity simply on the basis of what Dean has already said. J. Ehrlichman: I understand. Ah, my fear here is - Pres. Nixon: Dean getting immunity? J. Ehrlichman: Dean getting immunity, or anybody in the White House getting immunity, it is in itself treatable as a cover-up. And obviously is we are put in a position of defending ourselves, the things that I am going to have to say about Dean are: that basically that Dean was the sole proprietor of this project, that he reported to the President, he reported to me only incidentally. Pres. Nixon: Reported to the President? J. Ehrlichman: Yes sir, in other words - Pres. Nixon: When? J. Ehrlichman: Well, I don't know when, but the point is - Pres. Nixon: You see the problem you've got there is that Dean does have a point there which you've got to realize. He didn't see me when he came out to California. He didn't see me until the day you said, "I think you ought to talk to John Dean." I think that was in March. J. Ehrlichman: All right. But, but the point is that basically he was in charge of this project. Pres. Nixon: He'll say be reports to the President through other people. J. Ehrlichman: Well, O. K. Then you see what you've got there is an imputation. He says then - as that kind of a foundation "I told Ehrlichman that Liddy did it." What he is saying is that, "I told the President through Ehrlichman that Liddy did it." HR Haldeman: Which means that it was perfectly acknowledged as far as Ehrlichman was concerned and there was nothing that you were required to do about it anyway. J. Ehrlichman: That's right. But you see I get into a very funny defensive position then vis-a-vis you and vis-a-vis him, and it's very damned awkward. And I haven't thought it clear through. I don't know where we come out. Pres. Nixon: Yeah. You see Dean's little game here (unintelligible). One of the reasons this staff is so damned good. Of course he didn't report to me. I was a little busy, and all of you said, "let's let Dean handle that and keep him out of the President's office." And maybe you didn't want him in there for other reasons too. But he did. J. Ehrlichman: Well, the case I'm going to make Pres. Nixon: Well, of course, he would then say who the hell did he report to? J. Ehrlichman: Well, in many cases, to no one. He just went ahead and did things. Pres. Nixon: The other point is that they'll say (unintelligible) the first time he reported to the President - J. Ehrlichman: Well statistically, it's interesting. I'm now far enough in my records for last year. Pres. Nixon: You probably had five meetings a month. J. Ehrlichman: Less than that. Matched against that, all the other things I was doing - substantive thing - and Dean becomes practically the least of my worries. Pres. Nixon: How about you, Bob? HR Haldeman: I haven't any idea. I don't have a log. Unless Dean does. Pres. Nixon: The only thing he doesn't have is the fact that should have come in to see me. Ziegler talked to him, I guess and so forth and so on J. Ehrlichman: Moore - frequently. Pres. Nixon: Moore - all right - Moore (unintelligible) but I haven't talked to Moore either, have I? J. Ehrlichman: Well, I think, I've got to think this through. I just don't know where that leads. Pres. Nixon: (unintelligible) White House staff, John Dean, John Dean's highly sensitive information (unintelligible). Well, damn it, John Dean's highly sensitive information was on only one count. Believe me guys we all know - Well - the (unintelligible) stuff regarding Bob. Strachan has got to be worked out. I don't know how that's going to work out. Bob, did Strachan have a - the plan? What he says about whether he did have a plan - whether he did show it to you - remains to be seen. HR Haldeman: He apparently said he did not. Pres. Nixon: All right. The other point is whether Strachan got information now that is the stuff that is clearly identifiable according to Petersen as being telephone taps. Strachan will probably say no it was not. - And so, that's that. HR Haldeman: The discrepancy between Strachan and Magruder is because what Strachan got that could have been from that it turns out, was not. It was something else. When they get that, they'll get an interesting new problem, because Strachan would say it was Operations GEMSTONE, not Operation SEDAN CHAIR - and GEMSTONE wasn't Watergate so that will uncover that there was something else that they did. I don't know what it was. Pres. Nixon: Something else you mean? HR Haldeman: I guess, cause there was an Operation GEMSTONE that Strachan got reports on. Pres. Nixon: They tell me that GEMSTONE was the code word for everything - GEMSTONE is for everything. HR Haldeman: Well I thought SEDAN CHAIR was the Watergate thing, O. K. Well if GEMSTONE is the total thing, then what he got was reported from that. And it's a confidential sources indicate that - It did not clearly identify, according to Strachan. I can't tell you anything else. Pres. Nixon: (unintelligible) I want you to know what he's told me. HR Haldeman: All right. Pres. Nixon: John, I'm just trying to see what the options are on Dean - what we turn loose here. J. Ehrlichman: Absolutely. Well, let's go back to the press plan. Maybe that will give us some guidance. Pres. Nixon: Right. J. Ehrlichman: If you say in the press plan, "The President got concerned about this," the question, "why didn't he get concerned sooner because this has been in the paper for months and months?" Well, "the reason he didn't get concerned sooner is he was resting secure in the belief that he had the whole story." Pres. Nixon: Right. J. Ehrlichman: Well, what made him insecure? Pres. Nixon: Do I ever ask Dean in and ask him answers? The answer is no. J. Ehrlichman: No, but the point is that you were resting secure on his assurances. Pres. Nixon: Go ahead. J. Ehrlichman: Well - HR Haldeman: Didn't you at some point get a report from Dean that nobody in the White House was involved. J. Ehrlichman: Didn't we put that out way back in August? Pres. Nixon: I mean, I just said "Well, that's all I know now." It was never in writing. He never came in orally and told me Dean - John Dean I never saw about this matter. You better check, but I don't think John Dean was ever seen about this matter until I saw him, when John Ehrlichman suggested that I'd better see John Dean. J. Ehrlichman: You better check Bob, back in that period of time July - when we were in San Clemente - my recollection is that he did come and see you at that time - but we can check that. Pres. Nixon: Oh - by himself? No. J. Ehrlichman: Well, by himself or with one of us. I don't know. Pres. Nixon: He may have come in, but it was a pretty - I hope he did, hope he did. But he might have come in sort of the end, and someone said, "Look here's John Dean from Washington," and I may have said, "Thanks for all your hard work." J. Ehrlichman: Well - let's follow this line and see where it leads us. The President rested secure in the belief that his Counsel had investigated this and assured him that nobody in the White House was involved. J. Ehrlichman: O. K. Then, what moved him off of that belief and assurance? Well, what moved him off was the sequence of events leading to John Dean being sent to Camp David to write it all down. Pres. Nixon: What moved him off first were reports that occurred in the court testimony. J. Ehrlichman: That's right. Pres. Nixon: Charges were made by McCord and other charges - charges were made by McCord. I wouldn't say (unintelligible). Charges were made by McCord that, in open, before a jury committee. The President ordered a full investigation. J. Ehrlichman: Well, the first thing you did - and maybe you can avoid saying this - but you're saying you ordered a full press investigation when Dean came back and said to Bob, "I can't write that down." Pres. Nixon: He told me that too. J. Ehrlichman: Then that rang a bell. Because if Dean can't write that down, then we must have problems bigger than I ever thought. And so that's when you put on the full court press. Pres. Nixon: Well all right. Here's - you've got the dates on this. Well - J. Ehrlichman: I have them in there, yeah. Let's see what Dean says on that. Well he says, "The reason I couldn't write them down is because Dick Moore and others said (unintelligible) said how could I write it down - draw the wagons up around the White House?" That phrase, remember that, isn't that a Dean phrase? HR Haldeman: Sure. His line was that you could do that because there was no problem at the White House, the problems were at the Committee. Pres. Nixon: What did he tell you with that respect? What was Dean's line before he deserted? J. Ehrlichman: Well, what he said - Pres. Nixon: My point is - you've got to watch out. He may say, "Well, they were trying to get me - conspired to get me to write a report that was untrue." J. Ehrlichman: Well, I understand, except that he was sent to write it without anybody being near him. Pres. Nixon: Except Moore (unintelligible) J. Ehrlichman: I'm sure that when he went through this exercise, it was impossible for him to write it down without it being a confession. And he said, "My God, I don't know how this case is going to break, but I'm crazy to have a piece of paper like that around." Pres. Nixon: Then I could say then that I ordered - who conducted the investigation? J. Ehrlichman: The way we got it doesn't say - HR Haldeman: You asked other staff members to explore this - you had Ehrlichman, Moore, Garment, Haldeman. Pres. Nixon: That's right. All right. And then - J. Ehrlichman: Then you contacted some people and said, "Don't hold back on my account." Pres. Nixon: Yes, like Hunt-Liddy. J. Ehrlichman: Like Mitchell and Magruder. Pres. Nixon: I passed the word to all sources that everybody was to talk, to tell the truth, which I had done previously. I reaffirmed. I reaffirmed specific terms to specific people. HR Haldeman: Well, you had reason to believe that they might have a misapprehension on it. Pres. Nixon: Any misapprehension and so forth and so onto all parties involved - who were those people. I should not say - HR Haldeman: You can't list those people. Pres. Nixon: I should not say - well you can't list the people for a reason that would prejudice them. I talked to all parties concerned that if there was a shred of information which might in any way - which they might have on this case - I reaffirm what I had said publicly - that we must cooperate fully and tell the whole truth. Then, we come to the last weekend. On Saturday - a major development occurred - I can't say, "that as a result -" That would be an overstatement. J. Ehrlichman: Nope. Pres. Nixon: Then on Sunday I can't say that I talked with Kleindienst. Just say on Sunday. J. Ehrlichman: Except - remember I informed Kleindienst on Saturday - so you - Pres. Nixon: I informed Kleindienst. Then we'll get questions. "Did you inform him in person?" I can say I passed the information. HR Haldeman: Say you passed the word to Kleindienst Pres. Nixon: I informed the Attorney General. At my direction Ehrlichman filled in the Attorney General completely on the information that we had found and on Sunday the Attorney General and (unintelligible). They indicated as a result, a major development in the case - these major developments in the case - we've got to get Petersen. J. Ehrlichman: Then Ziegler or you could turn it over to Petersen, and let him say something innocuous. Pres. Nixon: And I directed Petersen to direct to me personally on my developments and any member of the White House staff or Federal Government was to be available to the Grand Jury and would testify - would be directed by the President to testify. Now you come to the next thing - you see Garment's scenario here will be (unintelligible) "I have asked that any government people who have been - who might - who have been - who are directly or indirectly - subjects of the investigation, even though having - this is no indication of any guilt - will be relieved of their duties and until the Grand Jury (unintelligible) Anyone who refuses to cooperate will be dismissed. Anyone (unintelligible)." HR Haldeman: Is that it? Pres. Nixon: Yes. (unintelligible) Anyone who refuses to cooperate will be dismissed. Anyone will be given leave until his until his trial is finished. He's had an opportunity to have his day in court. (unintelligible) J. Ehrlichman: How about anyone granted immunity? Pres. Nixon: Anyone granted immunity will be - let me try Petersen on you today? Pres. Nixon: Your idea about Petersen would be to hit him (unintelligible) with that. J. Ehrlichman: Trouble policy - I can't have it. Pres. Nixon: Until I do that, the President (unintelligible) follow it or (unintelligible) Petersen has - the President's - J. Ehrlichman: Tying our hands - Pres. Nixon: Tying our hands. But we're not telling Dean not to talk. I direct everybody to talk, but nobody is to be given immunity. J. Ehrlichman: In other words, you don't need - there are plenty of ways of proving a case around here. - besides granting some fellow immunity. Pres. Nixon: Yeah. J. Ehrlichman: You don't need that, and it looks like what you are doing is letting somebody off scott free. Pres. Nixon: That's right. Also, it looks like a cover-up. HR Haldeman: And particularly somebody - personally associated - in this case.