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$Unique_ID{bob01219} $Pretitle{} $Title{Nixon Tapes, The April 17, 1973. (12:35pm - 2:20pm) - Part 2/2} $Subtitle{} $Author{Various} $Affiliation{} $Subject{nixon pres ehrlichman haldeman hr unintelligible say dean that's get} $Date{1974} $Log{} Title: Nixon Tapes, The Author: Various Date: 1974 April 17, 1973. (12:35pm - 2:20pm) - Part 2/2 J. Ehrlichman: Maybe the point that Petersen is missing - maybe intentionally so, is that Dean is a major act in this thing. And big fish/ small fish, nevertheless, if a major actor gets immunity and just walks away from the White House having committed 89 crimes - that - and it is your Justice Department, and the guy that runs it, reports daily to you, what does that say? That says - "Gee, I didn't want my Counsel to get hurt." The only question that remains is why didn't he grant immunity to everybody. HR Haldeman: What it says is exactly the point - the Counsel knows more than - Pres. Nixon: Now, should I have any more conversations with Dean? J. Ehrlichman: No. I don't think you should. I think you should send him a note and tell him what your decision is. Or have Kehrli or somebody call him and say, "Don't come to work anymore. You're not suspended, you're not fired, but you're not to come into the office until this matter is - Pres. Nixon: That's a good tough way. What can he do? J. Ehrlichman: I don't think he can do anything. If somebody says to him, "Well, did you get suspended?" He can say, "No, I really haven't. I'm just sort of not working until -" HR Haldeman: He hasn't been to work for a month anyway. J. Ehrlichman: He's been out talking to the U.S. Attorney the whole time. HR Haldeman: Well, he's been here because it serves his purpose to be the inside story. He's been out of the office for a month. He's been - Pres. Nixon: I called him this morning and told him I wanted to talk to him later to ask him about that appointment June 19, but I don't think I better get into that any more. J. Ehrlichman: I don't either. Pres. Nixon: And, and he's going to give me some song and dance. J. Ehrlichman: Well (unintelligible) for your private information, I have gone back to the participants in that meeting where I was supposed to have said, "send Hunt out of the country." To a man, they say it didn't happen. And two of them said, "Gee if either one of them -" Pres. Nixon: What about the meeting? J. Ehrlichman: And they said, "If that had happened, it would have been burned into my recollection." The sort of thing like you ordering - Pres. Nixon: You better damned well remember being - The main thing is this, John, and when you meet with the lawyers - and you Bob, and I hope Strachan has been told - believe me - don't try to hedge anything before the damned Grand Jury. I'm not talking about morality, but I'm talking about the vulnerabilities. J. Ehrlichman: Sure, good advice. Pres. Nixon: Huh? J. Ehrlichman: Good advice. Pres. Nixon: You guys - damnit - know you haven't done a damned thing. I do know this - they've tried to track on perjury - you're going have that - J. Ehrlichman: Fortunately I have good records - I know who was in that meeting and so, I was able to call - Pres. Nixon: (Unintelligible) attorneys that certain materials. The point is now they talked to people - somebody put those things in the bag - I suppose Fielding. J. Ehrlichman: Fielding or Dean. I don't know. Let me just tell you - Pres. Nixon: Did he inventory? For example, who's going to testify what the hell was in that bag? J. Ehrlichman: I don't know. May I just finish telling you about this - I think it is important - Pres. Nixon: (Unintelligible) J. Ehrlichman: Well - it does - and also - Dean is the guy that made the call sending Hunt out of the country. But, the interesting thing about it all is that Friday, he called Colson and said, "Chuck, do you remember a meeting up in John's office where John said 'So and So and So' - and John said - 'send Hunt out of the country' - don't you?" And Chuck said. "I told him it never happened." And I didn't raise this with Chuck - he raised it with me. And said, "I had this funny phone call from this guy." So, he's out around planting his seeds. HR Haldeman: He's playing the Magruder game - flying from flower to flower - planting his pollen. J. Ehrlichman: So, I don't think - Pres. Nixon: I think those (unintelligible) you got very clever liars. I told you this before - very clever liars. J. Ehrlichman: Yep. Pres. Nixon: (Unintelligible) I got to get out of this - J. Ehrlichman: I think you can slide by that by just saying, "Stay home. Don't come in to the office." Pres. Nixon: Yep. I can say, "John, I think it's best that you don't come into the office." J. Ehrlichman: I can tell you one way you might do it is to say, "I've had a report that an FBI man about to serve a subpoena on Dick Howard told Howard to come and talk to you. I can't have that. Because you cannot sit there as an agent of the U.S. Attorney." Pres. Nixon: I indicated that already. HR Haldeman: Dean will say the same thing that you just said, that I can't prepare my case for the Grand Jury if I can't work with my files and so forth, and so if you are telling him not to come in, "I'll send a truck over and have my files brought to my home." That would take care of getting his filed Pres. Nixon: (Unintelligible) his files subpoenaed? HR Haldeman: Well, there's a question on that - J. Ehrlichman: That's the position you ought to take on that. HR Haldeman: Damn right. All of the files are yours and they are not subject to any action that your files are subject to. Pres. Nixon: Shall I tell him that? J. Ehrlichman: Nope. Let's wait until the question comes up. Pres. Nixon: Well, how do I answer the question - Bob, what do I say, "I have to have your files?" J. Ehrlichman: Well, he's already made his statement. It's obvious to the U.S. Attorney. He's past that point. Pres. Nixon: I don't think you can write him a note. It's going to anger him anyway. No sense in doing that. See what I mean? We've got to remember whatever he is doing - I don't mean that you can't - he's going to do anything to save his ass. That's what is involved. But on the other hand - J. Ehrlichman: O.K. - I got an idea - Pres. Nixon: You got to remember (unintelligible) he put this a lot higher. He could say, "Well, I told the President about $127,000, that we needed $127,000 and the President said, 'well I don't know where we could get it, I don't know.'" HR Haldeman: How could you do that though - that's true (unintelligible) J. Ehrlichman: Alright. I'll tell you how you might be able to handle that. The FBI has just served a subpoena on our WH police which asked that they produce the names of people cleared into the WH/EOB complex from 12:01 AM June 18, 1972 - to 11:00PM June 18, 1972. Pres. Nixon: Where were we then? HR Haldeman: What date? Pres. Nixon: June 18. J. Ehrlichman: The day of the bugging. HR Haldeman: We were in San Clemente. J. Ehrlichman: Really? HR Haldeman: Yeah. J. Ehrlichman: Florida. HR Haldeman: I mean Florida. I'm sorry. That was the weekend that we flew directly to Grand Cay and you went to Walkers and we went over to Key Biscayne. Pres. Nixon: Well, maybe that's an unsafe thing. J. Ehrlichman: The WH Police had notified Fred Fielding of the subpoena - HR Haldeman: See that's your other problem. You have a WH legal case and you have no WH lawyer - another interesting end to look at. Pres. Nixon: Where's Fielding stand on all this? HR Haldeman: He's Dean's (unintelligible) lives next door to him. Dean sponsored him. That doesn't necessarily mean he goes Dean's way. Fielding is an honorable guy - provincially so - who may not like what Dean is doing any more than we do. Pres. Nixon: Well, when I see Dean I'll say, "We're not going to publish this publicly or anything of that sort - but I do think that you should not - "What you want to do is get him out of the WH and yet Colson's recommendation is to get him out by firing him - J. Ehrlichman: Colson would like to discredit him. Pres. Nixon: Well I know. But the question is what he could do to discredit us. J. Ehrlichman: Well. Pres. Nixon: That's a problem. HR Haldeman: Yeah. But I think at some point, like you do on anything else, you gotta face up to the fact that the guy is either a friend or a foe or a neutral. If he's a neutral you don't have to worry about him; if he's a friend you rely on him, if he's a foe you fight him, and this guy - it seem at this point - is a foe. Pres. Nixon: When I talked to him I said, "Now John, any conversations are (unintelligible)." I said, "Anything (unintelligible) National Security are (unintelligible) you understand?" He said, "Yes (unintelligible) testified to it (unintelligible)." HR Haldeman: O.K. He said it and it was no problem for him to say it. But it was no problem for him to say a lot of things to us over the last couple of weeks too. Pres. Nixon: The point is, if you break if off with him, then he could go out and say, "Screw the (unintelligible)." HR Haldeman: No he can't. It's not his privilege. It's yours. Pres. Nixon: I know it's mine, but - HR Haldeman: If he screws the privilege - Pres. Nixon: Well, I think you have to charge Henry Petersen or whoever is in charge here with protecting your privilege and then that's got to go down to Silberman and Silberman has to be cautioned that he is not to go into matters of executive privilege - he is not to go into matters of national security importance. Any matters involving a conversation with the President - or national security, anything like that, they can ask me. J. Ehrlichman: Now, the question comes up - I don't know far this will run - but this caper in California for instance. Colson asked me this thing of Hunt's out there - the national security connected Ellsberg. Well Peterson knows about it I think. It's laying around someplace over there. But if the question comes up, Colson says, "How do I handle that?" I said, "Well Chuck, if I were asked that - I would say that that was a national security project and I'm not in the position to answer a question on that, because I would have to refer to the President for a waiver of executive privilege on that if he desired to do so." And he said, "Well, can I say the same thing?" And I said, "Well, I don't know whether you can or not. He said, "Well what would the President say if it's referred to him?" I said, "I don't know. I'll go ahead and ask him." Pres. Nixon: That's what we'd say. J. Ehrlichman: Can I tell him that for you? Pres. Nixon: Yep. Anything on the (unintelligible) thing, the plumbing thing was national security, the thing. No, I can't believe it was that - you know - the Hunt thing there. That will just have to handle the way it is. (Unintelligible) Colson about (unintelligible) Hunt thing? J. Ehrlichman: I don't know. If anybody around here did, if anybody did it, was Dean. HR Haldeman: I doubt if Dean knew about that. You see Dean and Colson never tracked particularly well together, I don't think. J. Ehrlichman: Whoever operates this at the Justice Department has to be told that the inquiry must not jeopardize your privilege. Some day they're going to try and put you in a crunch spot. Pres. Nixon: Sure. J. Ehrlichman: And they'll put a question to me and I'll say, "I can't take that question and then I'll be back to you and it's going to be hard." Pres. Nixon: No turning it off. It's national security - national security area - and that is a national security problem. J. Ehrlichman: Or, if it is something that you and I have discussed directly. Pres. Nixon: (expletive removed) it. J. Ehrlichman: I'll just (expletive removed) that - I'll just - HR Haldeman: I don't think anybody is going to try to challenge that. Pres. Nixon: (unintelligible) conversations with the President (unintelligible). J. Ehrlichman: (unintelligible) just got to be told the background - HR Haldeman: Awful low before you get to that. Pres. Nixon: (unintelligible) talk to the President about $127,000 we had to get or were we able to get it or something. I don't know how - why it was at that point - that we were still working on money for Hunt - I don't know how the hell - HR Haldeman: That was the one that Bittman got to Dean on. He really cranked on it. He was very concerned - professed to be concerned because Bittman's threat was that Hunt said that, "If you don't get it to me I'm going to tell them all about the seamy things I did for Ehrlichman." And when Dean hit Ehrlichman on that, Ehrlichman's immediate reaction was let him 20 ahead - "There's nothing he can hang me on." Dean didn't like that answer and went on worrying about the money. Pres. Nixon: Told me about it. HR Haldeman: Told you about it, told me about it. I was in here when he told you. Pres. Nixon: Good. What did we say? Remember he said, "How much is it going to cost to keep these, these guys (unintelligible). I just shook my head. Then we got into the question - HR Haldeman: If there's blackmail here, then we're into a thing that's just ridiculous. Pres. Nixon: He raised the point - HR Haldeman: (unintelligible) but you can't say it's a million dollars. It may be $10 million dollars. And that we ought not to be in this - Pres. Nixon: That's right. That's right. HR Haldeman: We left it - that - we can't do anything about it anyway. We don't have any money, and it isn't a question to be directed here. This is something relates to Mitchell's problem. Ehrlichman has no problem with this thing with Hunt. And Ehrlichman said, (expletive removed) if you're going to get into blackmail, to hell with it." Pres. Nixon: Good (unintelligible) Thank God you were in there when it happened. But you remember the conversation? HR Haldeman: Yes sir. Pres. Nixon: I didn't tell him to go get the money did I? HR Haldeman: No Pres. Nixon: You didn't either did you? HR Haldeman: Absolutely not! I said you got to talk to Mitchell. This is something you've got to work out with Mitchell not here - there's nothing we can do about it here. Pres. Nixon: We've got a pretty good record on that one, John, at least. HR Haldeman: But there's a couple of complications he can throw in there (unintelligible) which would be of concern, but I just can't conceive that a guy - I can see him using it as a threat. I cannot see him sinking low enough to use that. I just - although I must admit the guy has really turned into an unbelievable disaster for us. People don't - he's not un- American and anti-Nixon. I'll tell you - during that period he busted his ass trying to work this out. It wore him to a frazel. And I think it probably wore him past the point of rationality. I think he may now be in a mental state that's causing him to do things that when he sobers up, he's going to be very disturbed about with himself. Pres. Nixon: Also, he's probably got a very, very clever, new lawyer (unintelligible) I think that's part of the problem. HR Haldeman: Could very well be. John, I can't believe, is a basically dishonorable guy. I think there's no question that John is a strong self-promoter, self-motivated guy for his own good, but - Pres. Nixon: But in that conversation I was - we were - I was - I said, "Well for (expletive removed), let's" HR Haldeman: You explored in that conversation the possibility of whether such kinds of money could be raised. You said, "Well, we ought to be able to raise -" Pres. Nixon: That's right. HR Haldeman: "How much money is involved?" and he said, "Well it could be a million dollars." You said, "That's ridiculous. You can't say a million. Maybe you say a million, it may be - or 10, and 11" Pres. Nixon: But then we got into the blackmail. HR Haldeman: You said, "Once you start down the path with blackmail it's constant escalation." Pres. Nixon: Yep. That's my only conversation with regard to that. HR Haldeman: They could jump and then say, "Yes, well that was morally wrong. What you should have said is that blackmail is wrong not that it's too costly." Pres. Nixon: Oh, well that point (inaudible) investigation - HR Haldeman: (inaudible) Pres. Nixon: You see my point? We were then in the business of - this was one of Dean's - when he was - was it after that we sent him to Camp David? J. Ehrlichman: You sent him to Camp David on about the 20th. I think. Pres. Nixon: I would like to know with regard to that conversation, Bob J. Ehrlichman: I think it was about - his trip to Camp David - about the 23rd of March. HR Haldeman: When was the (unintelligible) trip? J. Ehrlichman: I haven't any idea. I have no idea. Pres. Nixon: Well, J. Ehrlichman: Well, you'll know the date of your meeting here. Pres. Nixon: Well (inaudible). I suppose then we should have cut - shut it off, 'cause later on you met in your office and Mitchell said, "That was taken care of." HR Haldeman: The next day. Maybe I can find the date by that - Pres. Nixon: Yeah. And Dean was there and said, "What about this money for Hunt?" Wasn't Dean there? HR Haldeman: No, what happened was - Ehrlichman and Dean and Mitchell and I were in the office, in my office, and we were discussing other matters. And in the process of it, Mitchell said - he turned to Dean and said, "Let me raise another point. Ah, have you taken care of the other problem - the Hunt problem?" Something like that. I don't know how he referred to it. But we all knew instantly what he meant. Dean kind of looked a little flustered and said, "Well, well, no. I don't know where that is or something," and Mitchell said, "Well I guess it's taken care of." And so we assumed from that that Mitchell had taken care of it, and there was no further squeak out of it so I now do assume that Mitchell took care of it. Pres. Nixon: The problem I have there is - HR Haldeman: Mitchell (unintelligible). LaRue was Mitchell's agent Pres. Nixon: I understand that. What I meant is, I'm just seeing what Dean's lines of attack are. HR Haldeman: You're saying, "Did I know about it?" I did. There's no question. Pres. Nixon: Say, "Yes, there was talk about it and so forth - and Mitchell took care of it." But you, on the other hand, you make the case that - HR Haldeman: It's (unintelligible). Pres. Nixon: In this office, but not the other - not in your office. HR Haldeman: In the other office the question of thing never arose. There again, Dean is the agent on it. Dean is coming in and saying what should I do. Dean's the agent on all this - that's where my money goes. All the input to me about the 350 came from Dean, and all the output came from Dean. Pres. Nixon: Then Dean was the one that said, "Look Bob, we need 350 for or need the rest of this money." HR Haldeman: No, they didn't even come that way. Dean said, "They need money for the defense, for their fees." And it was always put that way. That's the way it was always discussed. Pres. Nixon: Right - that's why I want that line. I think that's most important. You can work onset a lawyer. HR Haldeman: And I said to Dean at that time, "Well, look, you've got a situation here. We've for the 350" I thought it was 350 - actually it was 328. "in cash that we need to get turned back to the Committee. Apparently they have a need for money - so we have a coincidence (unintelligible) now you ought to be able to work out someway to get them to take the cash - and that will take care of our needs and we help meet their needs." And he went back to Mitchell and Mitchell wouldn't do it. HR Haldeman: And then they agreed to take 40 thousand of it which they did and shortly thereafter they agreed to take the rest, which they did. Pres. Nixon: You think - you check with (unintelligible) before the election in some - HR Haldeman: It was not before the election. Pres. Nixon: Dean says it was before. HR Haldeman: Strachan says it was in late November - 30th or something like that. J. Ehrlichman: Incidentally, remember you told me that Strachan had gone over there with Colson's partner and that the Judge wouldn't take him. It turned out that was Howard who went over. Dick Howard went over with one of Colson's partners. The U.S. Attorney kicked up a fuss about it. Saying that there might be a communication between the partner and Colson and so - HR Haldeman: Strachan's lawyer is a totally (unintelligible) guy that he's acquired from somebody he knew in law school. Pres. Nixon: Good. J. Ehrlichman: Now Colson has pitched me to retain his partner, which I think would be a mistake. Pres. Nixon: You J. Ehrlichman: Yeah. Pres. Nixon: You can't retain his partner. J. Ehrlichman: I don't think so. Be a big mistake because it would create identity between me and Colson that I don't feel comfortable with. Pres. Nixon: I don't want you - HR Haldeman: You can't. You'd be out of your mind to do it. Pres. Nixon: Don't get in there with Colson. He'll defend himself. HR Haldeman: Obviously Colson sees that as a way of getting in. J. Ehrlichman: Sure. HR Haldeman: We should not give Colson reason to get squeamish. Pres. Nixon: No. J. Ehrlichman: I'm cultivating him. Pres. Nixon: No, sir. J. Ehrlichman: I'm keeping him on the team. He feels that there is a coincidence of interest between you and me and him. Pres. Nixon: Right. Fine. HR Haldeman: Consider (unintelligible) has to continue - Pres. Nixon: Right all the time. Let's go back now to the decision. First, should we make a statement today? HR Haldeman: I would say yes. Pres. Nixon: I think so. HR Haldeman: Ziegler should make it. J. Ehrlichman: Well, if it is a carefully limited statement. Pres. Nixon: No questions. J. Ehrlichman: I think - no. I think it should be a very tight statement - very conservative - well at least you should think it through so that you can stay away from the soft places. But I think broadly - across the country - people are waiting to see your face on the evening news talking about the Watergate Case. And making more assurances. Pres. Nixon: Bill Rogers says this (unintelligible) first thought Ziegler - then as we left the boat last night (unintelligible) he totally rules out the 9:00. He says, "Don't make it the only story (unintelligible) 3 or 4 months (unintelligible)." HR Haldeman: You know where the Watergate story is in the Washington Post today? Page 19. J. Ehrlichman: (unintelligible) Pres. Nixon: I know. I know. And it'll be page 19 five months from now if we handle it right. J. Ehrlichman: Now I suggested having Petersen stand by. You don't think that's a good idea. Pres. Nixon: No, no. I just think I should go out there and say, "O.K." John, let's come back to this business here - let's come back to the business of the - which is the play of the White House leaders (unintelligible) doesn't work. J. Ehrlichman: Well, I think, in view of the foregoing, all that's gone and all that's been said, I think if you can get the results of having Dean out of his office, and I wouldn't worry about the files. I think you could put it on a basis that if he needs a file he could get it upon loan, so that at least you would be able to monitor what he was getting. I think that you would say to him, "In view of your relationship with the U.S. Attorney's office, I just don't think it is prudent for you to be on the grounds." Pres. Nixon: That's right. J. Ehrlichman: And, you're going to have to work someplace else. HR Haldeman: "I don't think there's any appearance problem, because you have been for a month anyway!" J. Ehrlichman: Right. It won't be noticed. If we are asked in the press room - Pres. Nixon: That's right. J. Ehrlichman: Ah, what your status is, we'll finesse it. And the question will come, "Has John Dean been placed on leave?" No. Has John Dean been fired? No. Pres. Nixon: Alright. J. Ehrlichman: And you could say to him, "If you don't bring it up, we won't." Pres. Nixon: Alright. J. Ehrlichman: "If this leaks, it's going to leak from you because nobody is going - And, as far as Bob and John are concerned, I will make an appropriate arrangement with them." Pres. Nixon: I'm going to make an appropriate arrangement covering them. Course, it's something different - J. Ehrlichman: "But, I cannot be in a position of having you dictate to me what it should be." HR Haldeman: And you can't be in a position - Pres. Nixon: I can tell him, "I've made an appropriate arrangement, but it's got to be in my own way, depending upon what each is doing." J. Ehrlichman: I think you could argue with him that the transition from John Dean being away from here and the transition being away from here is a very different kind of thing. Pres. Nixon: Yeah. That's right. We're not asking anybody to resign, John, because I think that would prejudice their rights. J. Ehrlichman: Taking a formal leave - Pres. Nixon: Alright fine, you can do that, but you're rejecting the Garment proposal that everybody leave until everybody is clear that I talked with you a moment ago? J. Ehrlichman: Well, I think a leave is the same as being fired in this context. Pres. Nixon: Do you Bob? J. Ehrlichman: Prior to the charges. HR Haldeman: When you have charges - Pres. Nixon: Here's the point. Let me - let me tell you what's going to happen in my view. And by charges, I don't mean indictments. But when they finally make their deal with Magruder (unintelligible) out of the D.C. jail - they're going to take him into open court. This is their deal, now because Sirica question (unintelligible) John last night. They are going to make this statement. I would assume then the charges would be made, at least as far as Madder is concerned. HR Haldeman: And they said Magruder makes charges against me? Interesting! Pres. Nixon: Bob, I don't know whether he does or not. Let's be damned sure (unintelligible). He's certainly going to say that Dean was involved and that Mitchell was involved. J. Ehrlichman: And he'll say Strachan was involved. Pres. Nixon: He'll say Strachan was involved. J. Ehrlichman: And, "Who's Strachan?" Well, Strachan was Mr. Haldeman's employee. But, my prediction is that if the Judge says, "Well, did Mr. Haldeman tell you to do anything or this or that," he'll say, "No sir, he was never involved in this." HR Haldeman: He told me that is what he would say. J. Ehrlichman: And he told me that is what he would say. HR Haldeman: He told John that is what he would say in front of his lawyers. That's what he had said, and he flatly says that is what is the truth. Pres. Nixon: Yeah. HR Haldeman: And it is what's the truth. Pres. Nixon: Alright. So your view, John, Bob, is that - you know that you got to look at - at being eaten away and then having to come in and say look, "I'm so impaired, I -" HR Haldeman: No, I don't expect to be eaten away. I think when I get hit, I mean publicly. Let's say Magruder does name me. Let's say Magruder does implicate me publicly." Pres. Nixon: Or Dean. Say Dean names you. HR Haldeman: Someone that's known publicly. As soon as Dean is known publicly - my view would be than I should then - I should request you to give me a leave of absence so that I can deal with this matter until it is cleared up. Pres. Nixon: You agree with that John? J. Ehrlichman: It'll depend a little bit, I should think on degree. If it is a Jack Anderson column, - Pres. Nixon: (unintelligible) another point I make (unintelligible) relation that I have now is this case. Suppose that the Assistant Attorney General comes in, Magruder and Dean have made charges. His argument is, "You have an option sir, and you as President should act. And I'm telling you now that those charges are in the possession of the government." That's what I'm - HR Haldeman: O.K., but what's (unintelligible) you do that. I happen to know what his motive is and I'll sure as hell use it (unintelligible). J. Ehrlichman: O.K. You say, "Mr. Assistant Attorney General, I want to explain my policy to you so that you'll know what our relationship is. Our policy is that I will immediately suspend - on leave - anybody against whom formal charges are filed by indictable information. Pres. Nixon: By information you mean - J. Ehrlichman: In other words, formal charges are filed. "As soon as that happens those men will go on leave. This is a town that is so full of wild charges that if I operated on any other basis, even of those who were brought to me by 20 Bishops and an Attorney General, I couldn't be suspending people around here or the place would look like a piece of Swiss cheese. But let me suggest you do this. You go ahead and diligently pursue the Haldeman and Ehrlichman case because I need to know." Pres. Nixon: Right. J. Ehrlichman: And, if you come to me and say that you filed charges and I'll have really no discretion in the matter. Pres. Nixon: If you come to me and say that you are planning to indict criminal charges, then I'll - at that time - move instantly, before we do it publicly. J. Ehrlichman: Or Dean, or anybody else. But I can't treat them any different than anybody else. And you have brought me basically, uncorroborated charges. You've said so yourself that you aren't going to be able to deal with Dean. Pres. Nixon: I feel comfortable with that. J. Ehrlichman: But, if you lay out the general ground rules first - Pres. Nixon: What, what basically, John, what the hell is the Garment, Rose I guess Moore (unintelligible). J. Ehrlichman: They're writing a New York Times editorial which is that this is a terrible cancer at the heart of the Presidency and that there must be drastic surgery. And that in a case like this you lean over backwards and fire and so forth. And, I'm sure it will be an editorial in many, many newspapers, that Dean has raised serious charges and so on so forth. And you'll hear a lot of that. Maybe the thing to do is for Ziegler if he gets a question about suspension or firing - to say, "This is the President's general policy - without regard to individuals - any individual whose bound by the Grand Jury -" Pres. Nixon: Why don't I say that today? J. Ehrlichman: That's fine. Pres. Nixon: Fine. All right. I think I got the message. If you will write up a brief, brief, brief statement. You know I can user do you have one you can get back to me? I have to do it at 3:00. How much time do I have? J. Ehrlichman: You've got about 45 minutes. Pres. Nixon: I've got plenty of time. HR Haldeman: Ziegler should delay the 3:00. They've only scheduled a posting. He can make it 4:00. Briefing at 4:10. Pres. Nixon: Yeah, that's right. HR Haldeman: You ought to tell him now, though, that you're going to do it though. Pres. Nixon: I better do that. HR Haldeman: Better get Ron in quickly and review this. Just tell them to send Ron in. J. Ehrlichman: Sure. HR Haldeman: Would you get Ziegler? HR Haldeman: Any question about my theory now? J. Ehrlichman: I wonder if we should talk to him about how to operate the next couple days? (unintelligible) suspicion before grant him immunity. I thought so too. (unintelligible) be on the wires, I would think. HR Haldeman: Even if they have, could withdraw (unintelligible) get him before he acts. J. Ehrlichman: I don't know. J. Ehrlichman: Now, with us out of the play here for a couple weeks ah, you're going to need a different mode of operation, I would think on the domestic side - Pres. Nixon: Yeah, Cole. J. Ehrlichman: And, Ken is fully abreast of everything. Pres. Nixon: All right. J. Ehrlichman: And I think you ought to just call him direct when you have something. Pres. Nixon: I will. I'll use him just like I'd use you. He'll have to wear two hats for awhile. HR Haldeman: My office can run itself. To cover your bases, you can deal with Steve. On schedule basis you'd be better off to deal with Parker. You haven't started doing it so you probably don't want to. Pres. Nixon: Things we do. I'd like to get acquainted with him anyway. HR Haldeman: Weekly review and things you would talk to me about, Parker knows the reasons behind everything. Pres. Nixon: Let us not overlook one greater - let us suppose no charges are filed, and basically charges are filed. (Unintelligible) thing. Charges might be that Haldeman had knowledge, and that he participated - cover-up - I'm trying, Bob, to put my worse - HR Haldeman: Sure. Pres. Nixon: Do you agree Bob, they might make that a charge - the heat would really go on. HR Haldeman: Sure. Pres. Nixon: In John's case they make the deep six charge (unintelligible). I'd (unintelligible) with you on that. J. Ehrlichman: It's up to you. Pres. Nixon: No, I mean that's a difference in degree. HR Haldeman: I think each of those is something that we have to deal with at the time. Pres. Nixon: That's right. HR Haldeman: In the context of the time, because I don't think you can anticipate now what the context will be. You don't know what the newspaper stories will be. For instance, right now - and that's another argument against taking any action regarding me - is that I'm not in the thing at all in the public mind, and it would be startling as hell. Pres. Nixon: Yeah. The reason for not going the Garment road - he wants, John, he wants Mitchell separated. He said; "Mitchell's got to come out (unintelligible). See my point? Don't suppose that's occurred to you? I think what we do, I think I will make a brief statement today, and I was wondering how late I can make it. Don't believe I can make it at 3:00. What do you think? R. Ziegler: You got to make it at 4:00 or 4:15. Pres. Nixon: Fine, but I'll have to go to work on it. R. Ziegler: We'll have to call them in. Pres. Nixon: Let me ask you this, fellas, you want me on the television? J. Ehrlichman: Yes sir, that would be my preference. Pres. Nixon: I'll just walk out. R. Ziegler: I think depending on the statement, they'll get it to the lab. Don't worry, they'll get it out. Pres. Nixon: (Unintelligible). R. Ziegler: I'll just say you have that flexibility from 3:30 to 4:15. Pres. Nixon: O.K. Fine, fine. J. Ehrlichman: Oh, Yeah. Ron I'll need that - R. Ziegler: This? J. Ehrlichman: Yes. Where's page 1? R. Ziegler: Its - says page 1 - J. Ehrlichman: Good work. Pres. Nixon: I wonder, John, I wonder that unless you sank Dean, basically, if we're putting too much emphasis on the fact (unintelligible) in that office. Understand, I'd just thinking what it is worth to us to get him out of that damned office. I relieve him of his duties? J. Ehrlichman: Well, the alternative is somehow or other to pass the word to everybody in the place that he's a piranha. I don't know how you do that. Pres. Nixon: What? What do you mean everybody in the place. J. Ehrlichman: I mean people like the White House Police. That if they get a subpoena they shouldn't ask him what to do. The Secret Service, a guy like Dick Howard. HR Haldeman: Who should they ask? J. Ehrlichman: Damned good question. Pres. Nixon: Moore? J. Ehrlichman: Make Moore Acting Counsel. He has very good judgment. HR Haldeman: Very good judgment and absolutely no procedural knowledge. J. Ehrlichman: Garment? HR Haldeman: He's worse. Pres. Nixon: Fielding? HR Haldeman: Let Fielding be the operative. Say that he can take no action without checking with Moore. Pres. Nixon: How's that sound, John? J. Ehrlichman: That's good. HR Haldeman: Fielding is to be the front man as Deputy Counsel, but he is to report to Dick Moore. Pres. Nixon: But you see, I just don't know if that kind of action is worth taking that kind of risk. J. Ehrlichman: Well, if he's here, people will go to him for advice. I'm just sure of it. Pres. Nixon: Okay. I've told him he's not to give any advice, and he's not to have anything to do with this case at all. All right? J. Ehrlichman: I don't know. Maybe I'm being unduly harsh, but - and maybe the negatives are more than the positives - it seems to be that it can be done without breaking any asses. Pres. Nixon: I can just say, "Well, people are coming in. They're on the WH Police now - so forth. I think it's going to look strange if he doesn't." J. Ehrlichman: It puts him in an impossible conflict-of-interest situation. Pres. Nixon: That's right. HR Haldeman: That's the problem. He knows what is coming in - what questions are coming. Pres. Nixon: Alright. The second point, with regard to Petersen, ah, that the - that's the highest - I better get him in and tell him (unintelligible). HR Haldeman: Yeah, and the no immunity thing. Pres. Nixon: And just flatly say, "Now this is the way I'm going to handle the matter. I cannot let people go simply because charges are made until they are corroborated. That's my decision," and so forth. And second, "I've thought over the immunity thing and I want nobody on the WH staff given immunity. I don't want anybody shown any consideration whatever." J. Ehrlichman: This has been a law and order administration. Pres. Nixon: Right. and third, "I'm directing everybody to cooperate (inaudible) They've been told they are not to. I've already helped him on that. I haven't helped him, I've tried. But I will not have a member of the White House Staff testifying in the Senate against others. J. Ehrlichman: Yes, sir, and I think that the fourth point that you should cover with him is that if I'm before that Grand Jury and I am asked about Dean's information within the Grand Jury, I will have to say that Dean told me that it came from Petersen. Pres. Nixon: Yeah. J. Ehrlichman: And, there's no point in your getting way out by saying out here to the press that I'm relying on Henry Petersen as my good right hand and then have him compromised at a later time. Pres. Nixon: That's right. HR Haldeman: I think you must, from here on - Pres. Nixon: (unintelligible) HR Haldeman: Yeah, but also, that you don't, from now on, until this is totally done, maybe never, express confidence in anybody. (expletive removed), don't say, I know this guy is doing the thing right or anything else." That applies to me, Ehrlichman - Pres. Nixon: Well, you know how I feel. HR Haldeman: Yes, but don't say it. Just - it just doesn't serve the cause properly. And I don't think you should say it. And you should not about Henry Petersen, Dean, or anybody else. Ron must not say it either. Don't let Ron con you into saying, "Well, I have full confidence in what's his name." J. Ehrlichman: I got a name today, and I don't know anything about this fellow - but let me advance his name to you. There's a lawyer here in town by the name of Herbert Miller. You may know him. He was head of the criminal division at the Justice Department. He was there thru 61 to 67, Kennedy and Johnson, but he's a Republican. Pres. Nixon: Yeah, alright. J. Ehrlichman: Now, it may be possible to get a fellow like that to substitute. Pres. Nixon: I don't know. This case is moving too fast. You call in a substitute and he's got to learn the damned case. J. Ehrlichman: O.K. He reviews it. He gets the complete file with the pros and the cons. He goes through it and he draws on seven years experience and he comes over to you and he says I've got to call this shot and I wonder if you have anything to add? Pres. Nixon: (Unintelligible) counsel? J. Ehrlichman: Yes, but as your counsel, he has no control over the prosecution. Pres. Nixon: (Unintelligible) Petersen J. Ehrlichman: That's right, and he's feeding a bunch of baloney, in my opinion. HR Haldeman: He also, I understand, told you that Strachan got very good treatment over there. Pres. Nixon: No, no, no. He told me the opposite. HR Haldeman: Oh. Pres. Nixon: He said that Strachan just got the hell beat out of him. HR Haldeman: He did. He was absolutely astonished. He came out of there and he said it was just beyond belief. They threatened his life practically, told him he better hire - Pres. Nixon: A lawyer. HR Haldeman: Best possible counsel. Provide for support for his wife, and because he'd be going to jail, and that he was in serious trouble. Said he would be disbarred. J. Ehrlichman: What they are trying to do is put him in the hands of an attorney who'll deal for immunity. HR Haldeman: They are trying to get him to make the same play that Magruder made. J. Ehrlichman: No doubt that they salvaged Dean the same way, and they scored on him. Well, all I'm saying to you is, I don't think in terms of the kinds of stuff they are talking about. That it is all that complicated for an experienced man to pick up, so I wouldn't want you to think that this guy is indispensable. Pres. Nixon: Yeah, but should I make that decision today? J. Ehrlichman: Well, every day that goes by is going to make it that much tougher on somebody new coming in and you got a guy in here that I wouldn't trust, knowing what I know, and maybe you can. Pres. Nixon: This guy gets relieved, and says well I told the President that he ought to fire Haldeman and Ehrlichman and he fired Dean. J. Ehrlichman: I don't think that he would say that. He's a pro. He's been around this town a long time and he knows if he said that, that you would come right back and say, "No, the reason that I fired him is that I've reason to believe that he is responsible for leaks out of the Grand Jury." And that would destroy him. Pres. Nixon: O.K. Can you get that paper back to me? J. Ehrlichman: Yeah. I'll get it right back. Pres. Nixon: Shall I get Dean down first? J. Ehrlichman: I would. Pres. Nixon: Tell him that - J. Ehrlichman: Tell him you are going to make a statement and that it is not going to refer to him. Pres. Nixon: Yep. J. Ehrlichman: Or anybody, and that you're going to deal with the people at the White House on an individual basis. HR Haldeman: Maybe you ought to get Petersen in first to talk immunity. Pres. Nixon: Yeah, get Petersen in first. Call and tell Petersen to (unintelligible) HR Haldeman: Alright.