Multimedia Mania

home *** CD-ROM | disk | FTP | other *** search

/ Multimedia Mania / abacus-multimedia-mania.iso / dp / 0119 / 01195.txt < prev next >

Wrap

Text File | 1993-07-27 | 63KB | 1,463 lines

$Unique_ID{bob01195} $Pretitle{} $Title{Nixon Tapes, The April 14, 1973. (5:15pm - 6:45pm)} $Subtitle{} $Author{Various} $Affiliation{} $Subject{ehrlichman nixon pres haldeman hr say unintelligible magruder now dean} $Date{1974} $Log{} Title: Nixon Tapes, The Author: Various Date: 1974 April 14, 1973. (5:15pm - 6:45pm) Meeting: President Nixon, HR Haldeman and John Ehrlichman, EOB Office ---------------------------- Material unrelated to Presidential Actions deleted ---------------------------- J. Ehrlichman: Well, he and his two lawyers who are very bright young guys came in. So I said, "Evidently, judging by your phone call earlier this is moot." He said, "Yes we have just come from our informal conference with the U.S. Attorney." He proceeded then to voluntarily give me his whole testimony. Pres. Nixon: (unintelligible) HR Haldeman: (unintelligible) sticky wickets, but no new ones. J. Ehrlichman: That's right. Pres. Nixon: Your definition of their (unintelligible) HR Haldeman: On the other side (unintelligible) Pres. Nixon: On Dean, he told him to lie? J. Ehrlichman: Oh, no. He's been a participant, an active participant in this thing right from the very beginning. HR Haldeman: Talked about the case in the most coherent way we've ever had. J. Ehrlichman: And I must say - HR Haldeman: We finally will know what happened. J. Ehrlichman: This has the - this has the ring of truth about it. He is a convincing witness. So, you know. But at the same time it has - HR Haldeman: It also is not in conflict with anything else you've got, and almost totally corroborates everything else you've got except you get to end of it this time. J. Ehrlichman: This all starts back in September of seventy-one, when Dean, Caulfield and Magruder met and contrived an intelligence effort called Sandwedge. Two months later, Dean had been unable to find the right people to make that thing work. (unintelligible) and Dean had approved of Liddy. And later ah, and Dean, Liddy and Magruder met. Liddy, after having some contact with Dean, and Magruder is a little vague on this, came forward with a million dollar proposal. Magruder says that Dean says that a million dollars was the right figure. And that's why he picked that figure. And so the four of them met. They went over it and Mitchell rejected it. A week later, Liddy came back with a budget half as big, the half-million dollar budget. And that was also rejected - Pres. Nixon: By Mitchell? J. Ehrlichman: by Mitchell. Dean went on and said "These kinds of things shouldn't even be run by Mitchell. He's Attorney General of the United States. He is sitting over here in his parochial office and he shouldn't even (unintelligible)" Liddy and Magruder then went off to try and develop a satisfactory project proposal. A quarter million dollar level. Magruder said he was never satisfied with it. He kept sending Liddy back to the drawing boards. Finally, Colson called with Liddy and Hunt in his office - talked vigorously. Finally, although he, and he felt Mitchell, too, were nervous about it and didn't feel comfortable about it, he said, "Well all right, I'll start this moving." Pres. Nixon: (unintelligible) that he doesn't say that Colson chewed him out? Specifically about this proposal? J. Ehrlichman: He said, Gordon Liddy's projects. He did not say wire taps. He used the word "projects" In fact, there was in being a budget for this quarter million dollar proposal. It was in writing. A copy of it bad been furnished to Gordon Strachan. And it was very specific in terms of the kinds of equipment to be used. Pres. Nixon: It was furnished to Strachan? J. Ehrlichman: Yes sir. There was no follow-up from Strachan. That is he informed Strachan that he was going to go ahead with the so called Liddy proposal and, "I read his non-response as OK from higher-up. I am not able to say of my own knowledge that there was any knowledge of anyone higher-up." In point of fact the (unintelligible) was insisting upon was information on Larry O'Brien. That was the thing he called about and that was the thing that he had been driving at. Around the end of March, Magruder and LaRue went to Key Biscayne where John Mitchell was. Pres. Nixon: Magruder? LaRue? Right. J. Ehrlichman: They presented to Mitchell liddy's final proposal. Which was bugs in three places - Watergate - Pres. Nixon: They were on the phone? J. Ehrlichman: They were in person. Pres. Nixon: Magruder and Mitchell - and LaRue. Presented it to Mitchell? J. Ehrlichman: Yes, sir. Pres. Nixon: In three places, huh? J. Ehrlichman: It involved bugging three places - Watergate, McGovern Headquarters and the Fontaine Bleau J. Ehrlichman: In the conversation, Mitchell orally approved it. Now it involved other things besides taps, and he was not specific. He said, "In all honesty this was a kind of a non-decision. Nobody felt comfortable in this thing but we were sort of bull-dozed into it." was the way he put it. Ah Pres. Nixon: By Colson? J. Ehrlichman: That's the inference. (unintelligible) Liddy's project. I said, "Well now, clear up for me just how well informed was Strachan?" He said, "I informed him orally of it. He had the budget." Pres. Nixon: The budget he prepared himself - J. Ehrlichman: Parts started to come out of that thing were junk. We got synopses in the log. He said, "I got the only copy. I, Magruder, got the only copy of that synopses." Pres. Nixon: Mitchell a copy? J. Ehrlichman: He thought they were all junk too. "furnish a junk store." The one copy that Magruder had had pictures of the kinds of papers that you'd find around with campaign headquarters. He sent a synopses of the pictures to Mitchell. He thought it was so bad he picked up the phone and called Liddy and chewed him out. He called em "(expletive deleted)" "I told Strachan that the synopses were here. He may have come over and read them," and as I pressed him on that he got less and less sure of that. He says, "I told him they were there." HR Haldeman: Strachan says, "I stopped reading the synopses, and they were - we had em here." J. Ehrlichman: Now I've got to skip back a ways and then I'll come back to Mitchell. HR Haldeman: You sure he made that claim to Strachan? J. Ehrlichman: I think March, about the time of the meeting down in Key Biscayne. Liddy threatened Magruder's life. He said he was transferred to the Stans' operation. Pres. Nixon: Yeah. J. Ehrlichman: LaRue approached Magruder and said, "We need that operation. You ought to take him back with us. It's dead in the water without him." In fact, from the White House to the headquarters, he says he told the U.S. Attorney, convinced him that they needed the operation. Back to the quality of the work. They - what they were getting was mostly this fellow Oliver phoning his girl friends all over the country lining up assignations. And Flemming, and discussing their young leaders' conference. Liddy was badly embarrassed by the chewing out he got. He met in a meeting with him, and said to John Mitchell, "Mr. Mitchell I'll take care of it." That was all that was said. So the next break-in was entirely on Liddy's own notion. Magruder says neither Mitchell nor Magruder knew that another break-in was contemplated. I said, "What - after the firing of Liddy?" Magruder was very nervous about him. He phoned John Dean and asked Dean to talk to Liddy and try and settle him down because he was acting erratic. I asked, "Who in the White House is involved in this whole thing?" He gave me the names I gave you: Dick Howard, some of Colson's people, and a lot of the secretaries in the EOB, have various information about a lot of different projects, they had pickets - all kinds of things that will come pouring out in the process of this whole thing. Well I said, "Back to the burglary, who else?" He said, "No one else." He said, "The U.S. Attorney is hot after Colson - they know he was close to Hunt. The only thing they have him on right now is the phone call to Magruder," so far as Jeb knows. But his attorney then chimed in, and said, "I think the U.S. Attorney has a good deal more because the U.S. Attorney told the lawyer that Hunt had re-perjured himself with respect to Colson." - when he was called back in under immunity and testified as to the break-in, and the capture of the burglars, and the cover-up. Mitchell, LaRue, Mardian and the lawyers basically - Pres. Nixon: Plus Magruder. J. Ehrlichman: Dean devised a cover story, in concert with these other people, and enlisted Bart Porter who went to the Grand Jury and perjured himself in concert with the cover story. Dean prepared Magruder and others for the testimony at the Grand Jury, cross-examining and getting them ready. Likewise, he leaked out information from the Grand Jury to the people at the Committee for the Reelection. The U.S. Attorney knows that he did that. It is illegal to do so. Pres. Nixon: Did he say where he got it? J. Ehrlichman: He got it from a higher-up. Now, I assume that's Henry Petersen, but I don't know. OK, with Magruder and Mitchell in the operation of their - this cover story about these meetings. And they worked out a deal where they had cancelled one meeting the million dollar meeting - and the second meeting which was the half-million dollar meeting they told the grand Jury they - Pres. Nixon: He's testified to all this? J. Ehrlichman: Yes. They talked about election laws. Yeah, he's just told the U.S. Attorney all this. He (unintelligible) destroyed his diary, but he couldn't do that. There's a million and a half dollars in cash that was distributed. Pres. Nixon: (expletive deleted)! J. Ehrlichman: LaRue and Stans know about it. There is "the famous list" of where that money went. I don't know. I am going to have to check my notes with O'Brien. O'Brien may have told me about that. He may have given some idea of where that went. The three fifty is a part of that. Mitchell says to Magruder, "Don't talk." Pres. Nixon: Discouraged him. What about Haldeman? J. Ehrlichman: Haldeman's very much a target of the U.S. Attorney. So far they indicated that he was implicated only by association with other people - meaning Strachan presumably. And the attorney gave me his private evaluation, that it was a little puffing on the part of the U.S. Attorney. He did not think that they had anything. Reisner and Powell Moore - Powell Moore is somebody on Timmons' staff who was at the Committee and who accompanied Liddy on what are called "The Saturday events." The Saturday events are the events that took place the day after the break-in. Liddy went out to find Kleindienst at Burning Tree and told him to get them out of jail on orders from John Mitchell. And LaRue, of course, and Mardian, largely on obstruction. They are developing many counts of obstruction of justice. One of the attorneys then, in winding up, I told - I gave Jeb your good wishes and felicitations and so on and one of the attorneys said "Well, you know, in all this there is not a scintilla of evidence that the President was in any way aware of any of these transactions." And he said, "Well I didn't say that for any purpose except just to express to you an impression I have about the way this thing's going." He said, "Literally tens of dozens of people down there crying to be heard by the U.S. Attorney. And he said, "This thing is rapidly deteriorating." But he said, "In all of this I don t see any evidence of the involvement of the President." So that was that and I thanked them and sent them on their way. Now I have the Attorney General of the United States sitting at home waiting to go to this dinner party and I have the Deputy Attorney General out of town. But as Bob points out, there isn't anything in my report that isn't pretty well covered and expanded on in what we just got from Magruder. But I think what I can do is call the Attorney General, tell him what I was going to tell him, tell him that Magruder has just disclosed to me what he has shown to the U.S. Attorney and that I really don't have anything to add, but that I did want him to be aware of the fact of the work that was done, and what I have done today. And, ah - HR Haldeman: Meetings which you had with Mitchell and Magruder, J. Ehrlichman: Yeah. HR Haldeman: Purpose of your meetings was to make the point to them that they should not go on - on the misguided assumption that that was for the Presidency, which is what Mitchell is saying. J. Ehrlichman: Right. This says that the meetings in Key Biscayne existed long after - Pres. Nixon: What is, what about Strachan? Strachan says you did not know about this. HR Haldeman: Can I give Strachan a report on this? Pres. Nixon: Sure. What is your view about his perjury? J. Ehrlichman: I don't know. HR Haldeman: He's going to the Grand Jury Monday morning. That's why it's better that be - be given this information so he doesn't perjure himself. Pres. Nixon: Right. HR Haldeman: I don't think be's testified on any of this so I don't think he has any perjury problem. What he has to do is prove the defense that - Pres. Nixon: Meets these points. HR Haldeman: Meets these points and - Pres. Nixon: Good. HR Haldeman: And he could - he can keep himself as an office boy, which is what he was. An office boy. If he lied about a thing - he persuaded Gordon to keep Liddy on - Jeb to keep Liddy on - I would think he would argue back that - "Jeb said to me, 'well, what should we do?' and I said, 'I think you better keep him on - he's getting good stuff.'" Don't you think so? J. Ehrlichman: I think Gordon knows how to deal with that if you give it to him. HR Haldeman: Now, I went back to Gordon today on this (unintelligible) and he said, "Absolutely, there was no other money." That the only deal was for a fella to handle that according to what Howard told him - that's who they sent the money over to. Pres. Nixon: For (unintelligible). J. Ehrlichman: Well, we got Magruder, now, this pickle. He's still on the government payroll in the Commerce Department. Pres. Nixon: In Commerce? J. Ehrlichman: I think it is Commerce. I thought he was. HR Haldeman: Now, this has been his second time around. Let me tell you what my concerns are. When he got down to it, he told the truth. And when he is talking about us, at least, he is bringing us into it. He will, for instance, he will want to elaborate on the Sandwedge and say I was involved in it. Now, to the extent that I listened to a presentation, I was. But I, at the time said, "This is something I don't want to be involved in. Something that should not be handled in here. Don't come to me any more with it," and they didn't. And then he will say I was involved in the meetings. That he came to me after that second meeting and said, "They came up with, ah, plans, with a preposterous plan." I told him that, "It can't be done." They shouldn't even be talking about it in the Attorney General's office. I said, "John, get out of it. You stay out of this, too." And he did. He said be would stay out of it from then on and I suspect he did. They'll tie me in that way - by indirection in a sense but, the problem, he'll, I think, I think, is people with him. Maybe that sounds like "everyone go down with the ship" but, ah, when it comes to this cover up busing Pres. Nixon: Expanding on, ah? HR Haldeman: Yes, he has a feeling - the three fifty. I am not uncomfortable with that, but Dean, Dean is. Pres. Nixon: What do you do about Dean? In other words, John - J. Ehrlichman: The U.S. Attorney's got to - Pres. Nixon: But Dean has been - J. Ehrlichman: I think this all has broken since. I think they were probably playing their cards closer. Pres. Nixon: And, now - Magruder testifies. J. Ehrlichman: I think that's their analysis. Pres. Nixon: Yeah. J. Ehrlichman: I think they are after Colson, you, me and by me, I say to the highest level provable objective. Pres. Nixon: Let me say that this tends to - ah - with the Ervin Committee overhanging - HR Haldeman: One, with these each day, occurred for months. J. Ehrlichman: Well, looking at the time. I should call Kleindienst to be sure I catch him before he gets out. Pres. Nixon: Why don't you call him? J. Ehrlichman: If I can find him. Pres. Nixon: All right. J. Ehrlichman: That's the only thing I'm thinking about - is that, with the thing on. Pres. Nixon: I see. J. Ehrlichman: If it turns out I call him (unintelligible) Pres. Nixon: I don't see how McCord can be put on now without prejudicing the cases of the defendants. J. Ehrlichman: That's right. Pres. Nixon: I mean - I would try to go to Ervin and tell him not to do it. J. Ehrlichman: Ah, Jeb's attorneys felt that they would do so, and they say that there are cases that would require it. Pres. Nixon: What about negotiations with Ervin on Monday? HR Haldeman: I have a feeling that Ervin would be delighted. This would give him a chance to prove his case better. "You will have more than you have here." Pres. Nixon: Yeah. J. Ehrlichman: He would be delighted to. He's going to think it solves all this stuff. HR Haldeman: I'm not sure it does this. At least it should get them to the ribbon. Pres. Nixon: Yeah. J. Ehrlichman: (telephone call) Hi, General. How are you? J. Ehrlichman: How was the golf? J. Ehrlichman: First half good? J. Ehrlichman: I want to bring you up to day on what I have been doing. For about the last three weeks - well, since I saw you, before I saw you out in San Clemente - the President has had me trying to gather together, as you know, a certain amount of law and facts to be in a position to kind of substitute for Dean, and to advise him on the White House involvement, but even broader involvement, in this whole transaction. Yesterday, I gave him my summary and, admittedly, it was hearsay, but some of it pretty reliable. And the whole thing fit together pretty well as, at least, a working hypothesis. One of the things that I told him was that I had encountered people who appeared to be reticent to come forward because they somehow felt that the Presidency was served by their not coming forward. So he had me today, in a series of conversations with people, to straighten them around of that point. The first one I talked to was your predecessor. Then I talked to Magruder, and - J. Ehrlichman: Well, as it turns out, I was just a little late in talking to Magruder, because he had just come back from telling everything to the U.S. Attorney. He has decided to come clean. J. Ehrlichman: Yep. He had his informal conference minutes before he came in to see me. J. Ehrlichman: Dramatically inconsistent. J. Ehrlichman: And he implicates everybody in all directions up and down in the Committee to Re-Elect. J. Ehrlichman: Yep, cold turkey. My instructions after I had completed - well I might say I also talked to a couple of other people who are around here just to pass the word to encourage them to testify, if the only reason they were not testifying was some concern about the Presidency. Also, being very careful to say that I recognized everybody had rights, and that it didn't mean in anyway to indicate that they should not avail themselves of their full rights. Now, Magruder then - J. Ehrlichman: Yep. J. Ehrlichman: Yep. No question. J. Ehrlichman: More than just a participation in a conspiracy, Dick. J. Ehrlichman: Yes, they are principals. J. Ehrlichman: Well, I must say that my conversation with him was reassuring in that regard. He is very steadfast in his protestations of innocence. J. Ehrlichman: Well, the Magruder case is not only testamentary but is circumstantial - is persuasive to me. J. Ehrlichman: I saw Mitchell first. I didn't have all of this Magruder business. Now, here I am a citizen of the United States and the designated inquirer of a body of information. My purpose and intent was to advise you of this when I got finished with this process and tender this information for whatever purpose it would serve, recognizing that up until just a few minutes ago it was almost entirely hearsay. Magruder has just unloaded on me the substance of his conversation with the U.S. Attorney - informal conversation. And I find that I now have very little to add to what Magruder had already given the U.S. Attorney. J. Ehrlichman: I felt that I should go forward and at least advise you of this and to J. Ehrlichman: Let me spoil your afternoon completely, will you? One of the things Magruder told me was - and his attorney who was with him corroborated - was that they are very concerned about Dean's facility for advising people at the Committee of the proceedings of the Grand Jury. J. Ehrlichman: Well, he was apparently informing Magruder and others of what the Grand Jury was saying and doing. J. Ehrlichman: And Silbert or someone else said to his attorney, well, we know the source of Dean's information and it was from higher up. J. Ehrlichman: Well, anyway, there J. Ehrlichman: there's that. In any event, I remember what you told me before, and I originally had thought that perhaps something would be served by you and Sneed coming in and the three of us visiting, but this thing has taken the Magruder bounce, and I am inclined to think now that you ought to just tell Sneed the substance of this conversation. J. Ehrlichman: That is probably just as well, don't you think? J. Ehrlichman: Yep. J. Ehrlichman: He can make the decisions that need to be made from here on. J. Ehrlichman: Well, I think the President's feeling is that Sneed could do that J. Ehrlichman: Well, I think he is pretty firm on that. J. Ehrlichman: OK, I think you should on Monday. J. Ehrlichman: Alright. J. Ehrlichman: I understand. J. Ehrlichman: OK. You give it some thought and we will too, and then we should talk on Monday. J. Ehrlichman: Uh, huh. J. Ehrlichman: Alright. J. Ehrlichman: Rogers passed those along to me. J. Ehrlichman: Yeah. A list. Ok, my boy. I just wanted you to have a nice time this evening. J. Ehrlichman: Don't forget my tender that if there is anyway that any of this hearsay of mine that I have collected is in anyway useful, I would be glad to make it available. My present thinking is that it could add very little to what Magruder just told me. J. Ehrlichman: Prejudicing anybody's rights. J. Ehrlichman: That is why I am calling you, my dear. J. Ehrlichman: Well you are my favorite law enforcement officer. J. Ehrlichman: Do you want me to give you anything additional on Monday? J. Ehrlichman: What do you mean? Mitchell and Magruder. J. Ehrlichman: Well, no I have been talking to people for three weeks. I have talked to everybody but the milkman. J. Ehrlichman: And outside, and people's lawyers, and every damn thing. J. Ehrlichman: Yes. J. Ehrlichman: Alright. J. Ehrlichman: The President J. Ehrlichman: You know I have talked to him. J. Ehrlichman: Well, I have talked to them and in some cases they know I have talked to other people. J. Ehrlichman: Well, they know that because they knew the source of my leads, etc. J. Ehrlichman: Dean, LaRue, Mardian, Porter. J. Ehrlichman: No. He is largely implicated on the obstruction of justice. J. Ehrlichman: Yeah. J. Ehrlichman: From stem to stern. J. Ehrlichman: Yep. J. Ehrlichman: He just was having a terrible time living with it, and he didn't see any point in waiting any longer. His attorneys said they analyzed it very carefully, and see no advantage to getting in and out. J. Ehrlichman: A couple of very bright guys. I have their names over there, but I can't tell you now. Bernbaum and somebody else. Sears, I think is the other guy. I don't have the names right now. J. Ehrlichman: Pardon? J. Ehrlichman: Sure. J. Ehrlichman: Sure. J. Ehrlichman: Alright, let me know. J. Ehrlichman: Thanks, Pal. I will see you there. J. Ehrlichman: Oh yeah. I am going to go and see Bernstein and what's his name, get their awards. J. Ehrlichman: Alright Pres. Nixon: Let me ask you, John, about Colson. Everything that has been said, despite the fact of how accurate it would be consistent with Colson's not knowing the Watergate defendants? J. Ehrlichman: Magruder doesn't lay a glove on him. Pres. Nixon: But he says they're hot after him, of course, the only thing they would be hot after him is on the - ah - Hunt. J. Ehrlichman: His connection with Hunt. Their premise apparently is, according to their lawyers, that everything Hunt knew, Colson knew. Pres. Nixon: But Hunt - then Hunt therefore will - they'll try to get him to come in and lay a glove on Colson. HR Haldeman: It would be Colson's role (unintelligible) J. Ehrlichman: Well, Kleindienst says - for reasons - I have to be very careful about who I communicate with, for the next little while. Pres. Nixon: OK J. Ehrlichman: He wants me to meet with Henry Peterson tomorrow. I'm possessed of information establishing the commission of a crime. And I've got to be darn careful about who I talk to. Pres. Nixon: Sure. On - ah - things that you've found out. J. Ehrlichman: Yeah Pres. Nixon: Ah - as to who? J. Ehrlichman: He says Sneed was detached from Watergate was in a perfect position to act on it, but he wishes we'd get a special prosecutor. Pres. Nixon: (unintelligible) J. Ehrlichman: He wants to talk about it Monday and Pres. Nixon: Do you still think that's a bad idea? J. Ehrlichman: I think it would be very bad. All these people - prosecutor Pres. Nixon: I want you to say that to him tomorrow. J. Ehrlichman: I sure will. Pres. Nixon: I have just decided against it. Well, if you could hear me. Why raise this - "he's considered it. Thought it through. He doesn't want a special prosecutor because there's no question with the people you've got. They're doing a hell of a job here. As the cases will point out - And we should throw them out we'll throw them out now. Let them continue" Correct? J. Ehrlichman: Yeah. I agree. Interesting, the interesting fact - The U.S. Attorney for the District of Columbia has just had Magruder in the office and can sew up the case. Pres. Nixon: Yeah. HR Haldeman: (unintelligible) Pres. Nixon: Yeah. John, when you get to that, would you let him resign? J. Ehrlichman: Well I don't think - Pres. Nixon: I don't think he has to. J. Ehrlichman: I think he may want to, and if he does want to, I think he should. Pres. Nixon: If he does want to you could put Sneed in the job? J. Ehrlichman: As acting and you get somebody damn good. Pres. Nixon: You wouldn't keep Sneed in the job? J. Ehrlichman: I don't think he's, he's - Pres. Nixon: You'd rather have our friend over at HUD? HR Haldeman: Somebody like him - yeah. Pres. Nixon: Well, we need somebody that's good. J. Ehrlichman: You should have a spokesman. Pres. Nixon: Where? J. Ehrlichman: Yeah. Pres. Nixon: Ehrlichman should get out the facts that he has made this investigation, that we weren't drug kicking and screaming into this thing. I don't know. J. Ehrlichman: I may have a legal problem. I'll talk to Dick tomorrow. Pres. Nixon: Yeah - it may be a real problem. J. Ehrlichman: And if it's not a legal problem, I'll have a question Monday for Ziegler on what Mitchell was doing at the White House. "Just say he was here talking to me." Pres. Nixon: "The whole matter has been referred to the proper authorities." J. Ehrlichman: Yeah, he'll have to. Pres. Nixon: And he'll say, "Oh that's been given to the proper authorities." That's what I would think. HR Haldeman: All he has to say is - why can you just say - J. Ehrlichman: Huh? HR Haldeman: Unless you want that authority to say you've been investigating. Pres. Nixon: That's the whole point. J. Ehrlichman: Gives you an opportunity to say you've been investigating Pres. Nixon: With regard to the hearings, shouldn't wand at least put this one out? First, the hearings when they eventually come going to be anti-climatic in my opinion J. Ehrlichman: Could be anti-climatic. The networks might just not want 'em. Pres. Nixon: Because of the fact that the big fish have been indicted? HR Haldeman: Can't tell. Pres. Nixon: And so forth. J. Ehrlichman: Or you may have Weicker saying "Why haven't these guys indicted him? And you could say - Pres. Nixon: I think I have reached the conclusion, just the two of you - I know Ziegler will disagree with the conclusion, but it's a loser for us to continue trying to say that - I think you've got to say, "I think we ought to go, to go on that. What do you think Bob? Let's be forthcoming on that and get that out fairly soon. I've got to get some appearance of cooperation. You agree, Bob, or not? HR Haldeman: I do. Pres. Nixon: Now the question is what do you do about Dean. That may be moot. For that reason I would say - I - HR Haldeman: Does Magruder guess that Mr. Dean's going to be indicted? J. Ehrlichman: Magruder does not link Dean with the break-in and the bugging. Pres. Nixon: No, but he says he was there - J. Ehrlichman: He's in the inception. Pres. Nixon: Yeah. J. Ehrlichman: But they have that on him. HR Haldeman: But he's in a wholly (unintelligible) all he had to do - reject this plan J. Ehrlichman: Sir? And he is not a participant in the Liddy, Magruder quarter-million-take it to Florida-plan. He is no link at all to the plan that was carried out. Pres. Nixon: All right then - so they get him for what? They get him for the aftermath, the aftermath, and the obstruction. He has have a chance. Not much. They'll say that he believed that he has a constructive immunity on that J. Ehrlichman: But he doesn't have it any more. Pres. Nixon: No - (unintelligible) This would tend to bear out the Colson story that - It sounds like the story that he gave me. HR Haldeman: (unintelligible) But Colson's interested, too, (unintelligible) tell us that Magruder had nailed him. Pres. Nixon: That's right. J. Ehrlichman: It's established that what he told me was substantially what he told the U.S. Attorney. Pres. Nixon: I understand. HR Haldeman: Anyhow you see we are interested in giving you all the information. Pres. Nixon: (inaudible) J. Ehrlichman: I doubt it. Completely relaxed in this. A smile on his face. He wasn't shaking. He wasn't going to fight it. HR Haldeman: Every time I've seen him - J. Ehrlichman: He just said "I hope this isn't going to be for too long." Pres. Nixon: It's the right thing. We all have to do the right thing. Damn it! We just cannot have this kind of a business, John. Just cannot be. HR Haldeman: According to Magruder - Magruder said the same thing. Of course, they think I'm just more trapped - Pres. Nixon: I think Mitchell is beyond belief or do you think (unintelligible) J. Ehrlichman: Well, that's true. What it basically comes down to, of course, what, sure the circumstances - Pres. Nixon: But LaRue? HR Haldeman: If LaRue tells the same story about - Pres. Nixon: and Liddy. Liddy, Dean - HR Haldeman: Well, Liddy can't talk because Liddy's susceptible J. Ehrlichman: But Mitchell says I can see that Liddy has done so and so and so and so. And Liddy says, "Boy, that's crazy, look here -" I saw him on this day, and this day, and this day - Pres. Nixon: How about Dean? One other question. About the Haldeman statement: should it be made now? J. Ehrlichman: Can't hurt anything, not hurt anything. It would have to be broader on Strachan. Pres. Nixon: The point that I am wondering, you see, I don't know. What does he say of Haldeman? HR Haldeman: Said that (unintelligible) Strachan did anything. J. Ehrlichman: No. Pres. Nixon: Did participate? J. Ehrlichman: I suspect Strachan is not going to corroborate anything. "My relationship with the committee was to (unintelligible) Pres. Nixon: Yep. No harm in putting that out. What the hell. You've got to get it out. What do you think, Bob? HR Haldeman: I don't think it does, but I am somewhat, you know puzzled by it, in my own assurance that it's a good idea. It's the feelings of the Kissingers and Zieglers that it's a disaster for me to be out front. J. Ehrlichman: You're not about to be out front. Pres. Nixon: I - the point is Bob that, you have HR Haldeman: to be that far out front before this hits. And then this hits. It puts me in the league with it, is what they would argue. J. Ehrlichman: The story of the new found freedom he's made, will run around and tell everyone in town. He just launched into this, you know, I didn't ask him - HR Haldeman: You can understand that. A guy that says - he's been constipated for eight months and all of a sudden was able to take a crap is going to enjoy it. Pres. Nixon: Why don't you make a deal on Monday for this. That because, it'll be (unintelligible) and we'll take all the people, any members of the White House staff, with any privilege, any executive privilege waived reserved to be decided in executive session. How does that sound to you? J. Ehrlichman: Well, my position would be that they don't get to decide the question of executive privilege. We decide that. Pres. Nixon: Oh you - you would say - (unintelligible) J. Ehrlichman: We say we are going to send our people up there and we don't care if you have television or a night in a damn circus tent. You can send them up there and every question is subject to research under objection for executive privilege. We are not going guilty. HR Haldeman: What do you do with my knowledge of hearsay - I just throw it all out now? J. Ehrlichman: No. Pres. Nixon: You don't do it? Well - J. Ehrlichman: I have gone into that in great detail with Ervin and he agrees with the concept that we are conduits to the President, that anything that was given to us is privileged. Pres. Nixon: He agrees with you, in other words. HR Haldeman: If anything is given to the (unintelligible). Pres. Nixon: I would say, "We will give you Dean in Executive session." How does that stand up? Or, start with Dean. J. Ehrlichman: I did. Pres. Nixon: But you see, you get in a position where you can say, they claim precedent because of the nature of the situation - to make the substance part public. J. Ehrlichman: I must say that I think part of the trouble with our agreement Pres. Nixon: Yes. HR Haldeman: John Dean may be into this where they can't call him anyway. Pres. Nixon: That's what I'm thinking about. J. Ehrlichman: Yeah. Pres. Nixon: You see I'm, I'm just thinking it through on this one. It appeared to be forthcoming and that I wouldn't let the Dean thing be a fracas, if not necessary. I just think that that's one move you can make now at the present time. I just go - I think I'm a proponent of the idea that "buy a good headline for a day" and invite Dean back for later on. But we're going to get beat on the head and shoulders. Let's face it. We're going to get it until the Grand Jury indicts and then, that would be maybe another three weeks. After that, when they do indict, then they'll say, "Mr. President, what the hell are you going to hold Dean to the (unintelligible)?" I think we've got to do that. I just feel it's one of those things. To announce it, that I make it tomorrow night. Would you do that? HR Haldeman: To repudiate that today, you know, that means Tuesday. (Unintelligible). Pres. Nixon: Maybe we should. I think, I think we've got to get bouncing. There's another thing I'm thinking of, Bob. I'm thinking of the fact that this is here now, may make the hearings a hell of a lot less interesting and also a lot - they sure as hell can't - Pres. Nixon: Sure. HR Haldeman: I hate to see that stuff keep getting obstructed by Watergate. That isn't the problem. All of this stuff is going to make Watergate. This makes Watergate look a lot worse than it really used to look. Pres. Nixon: This does? Oh, I say it does because it involves many people. And in that way - HR Haldeman: That's our problem. Shouldn't people leave before this gets out? Is that - Dick was saying before it was going to be made by Dean, but now it's Magruder's on the apple sauce. "What, can they sit around -" Pres. Nixon: Well, for one thing they want to get all the others; if you want to get all the obstructions, you've got to hear all these people. J. Ehrlichman: Not all of them, but they have got to, they got about five people - they got Hunt up. Pres. Nixon: Who, who? J. Ehrlichman: They make their case from the time that they vote on indictments. They may recess the Grand Jury for a couple of weeks. Pres. Nixon: Well, you have the - a little later we've got the (unintelligible). Say you're not going to do it because of Dean. HR Haldeman: If the situation's going to get worse, then you maybe have to do something. If this is as bad as it's going to get, then, if this is going to change in a different direction, maybe you're better off not doing anything. Of course, the alternatives are, it's going to get worse. In other words, if you think you're going to swing, there is an actual danger, then the Republican House will meet and pass a resolution calling on the President, and probably a unanimous resolution. Pres. Nixon: I think it's very close to that right now. I think this would trigger it, without question. They would be so horrified about that - HR Haldeman: Could be. He says it's not going to satisfy them. He says this pretty much establishes the Watergate thing and then you say to people like Goldwater, the people that want this done with are going to - You've got to look at the other possible boxes to say, "Well, thank God, it's all been cleared up now. Let's forget all this other" And some will say, "It's now clear the White House wasn't involved, and thank God they weren't. And it's clear the President wasn't involved and thank God he wasn't. It's a tragedy that that great man, John Mitchell, was." Pres. Nixon: And that so many people at the Committee were. HR Haldeman: And then, everybody will dwell on that. Pres. Nixon: Except that you've got a fair chance that Dean will go. A fair chance that someone will break. J. Ehrlichman: I would spotlight it as the umbilical cord at the White House and the Committee and the question will be, "What is the other end of those umbilical cords?" Pres. Nixon: Then, you don't think - You don't think there's much - Dean, no, Dean's high enough. HR Haldeman: The believable mess of it is being answered by this. "There is - somebody higher than Gordon Liddy had to have agreed to spend a quarter of a million dollars to bug the Democratic National Committee." J. Ehrlichman: Now you've got that somebody. Pres. Nixon: That's Mitchell. HR Haldeman: Now that you've got somebody who was, you've got a believable case where you can now say, "Well, so there was some other stuff going on but this was where the problem was." Pres. Nixon: I don't know what the stink - HR Haldeman: Maybe the answer - Pres. Nixon: I'd just like to get Segretti out in our formal - Don't you think so? HR Haldeman: Yes, you've got to get it out. (Unintelligible) Pres. Nixon: Haldeman. Just say that Haldeman (unintelligible) and let's see what they say. Huh? HR Haldeman: If it says Haldeman commits guilt. Pres. Nixon: I know. HR Haldeman: What I want to do - Pres. Nixon: Yeah. HR Haldeman: The Ziegler or Kissinger view is very strongly that that's what I shouldn't do. I'm the last guy to decide who to - should do it. Pres. Nixon: Yeah. What do you think, John? HR Haldeman: John thinks I should. J. Ehrlichman: I think we should come out. Pres. Nixon: You come out like I do. Several of the Republicans - J. Ehrlichman: Now as I say, I haven't heard Henry's - Pres. Nixon: No, I've - several other Republicans and the like will come out after that and say, "Haldeman should resign because of his involvement in the Segretti matter." HR Haldeman: You have to say I do have to resign or you defend it. Pres. Nixon: All right. Defend it. HR Haldeman: Or you defend it. You can't, I don't think you can ignore it. If I've done that you've either got to - you've got to make the judgment that that was sufficient to cause me to resign or it wasn't. That's the first question of the first person. (Unintelligible) Pres. Nixon: You think that Haldeman ought to resign, you mean? J. Ehrlichman: Yeah. Ziegler can, the next day. "His connection to this was very remote, was very benign." And he helped unwrap it, knowing that - stepped forward - we established that a crime was committed by Segretti. Pres. Nixon: I would not be as strong for your taking it out, except for his having said "self-incrimination," the fact that that made him - HR Haldeman: You've got a really - a punchy decision which is whether you want me to resign or whether you don't. That's one you've got to figure out. The problem with that is if I go on the basis of the Segretti matter, you've got to let Dean go on the basis of his implication, which is far worse. Pres. Nixon: Yeah. HR Haldeman: Strachan's already out of the White House so that's no problem. If he's going to ring Ehrlichman in, you are going to have to let him go. J. Ehrlichman: He's got sort of a hypothesis in that he is developing in our conversation that - that - referring him to Kalmbach - which is actual. As a matter of fact, I didn't refer him to Kalmbach. He came to me and said, "May I go to Kalmbach." (Unintelligible) Pres. Nixon: Go to Kalmbach for the purpose of - J. Ehrlichman: For the purpose of getting Herb to raise some money. For the purpose of paying the defendants. For the purpose of keeping them "on the reservation." Pres. Nixon: Right. With that they could try to tie you and Bob in a conspiracy to obstruct justice. J. Ehrlichman: That's his theory. Pres. Nixon: It's rather questionable. J. Ehrlichman: Well, I'm not so sure that makes any difference at this point. The coloring is - the key was in their pocket. Pres. Nixon: Well, (unintelligible). HR Haldeman: Strachan's position is totally true - without giving him any help. Pres. Nixon: I know. The way you have to handle that, let's face it, it is there, of course. You've got the whole business of the aftermath, as to motive. And there, if you or Bob were asked, what do you say? J. Ehrlichman: Well, as far as I can read obstruction and I may be putting favorable (unintelligible) concerned about what these fellows are going to testify to. The Grand Jury (unintelligible) so that they could go out, sell their stories to one magazine or another. Pres. Nixon: Sure, John, you are not particularly concerned about that? J. Ehrlichman: I was concerned about that, particularly Hunt who is a kind of an author type and would be inclined to do that kind of thing. HR Haldeman: And that is no part of who was or wasn't guilty or where the thing led. Pres. Nixon: I see. HR Haldeman: That's exactly right. We weren't protecting anybody. J. Ehrlichman: I'm even willing to buy that. HR Haldeman: I know, and I said that to John, and John didn't agree with me. Pres. Nixon: I wish we could keep Dean away from that. Magruder - we don't have to get that (unintelligible). Let me say - let's sleep on what we do with the - ah - My view is though, I think that the odds are, that the interest the Committee is less. What they are after is some of the big fish. The second thing is going to be HR Haldeman: "A lot of people are going to say, you solved the Watergate - now, forget it." And not come to this. Pres. Nixon: Some of our people can say, "That's tough, now what do you want to investigate?" HR Haldeman: To folks out there just say, just give an answer and get it out of the way. That's all. They don't care. Pres. Nixon: It's really such a bad thing. And he'll come in, plead self- incrimination, and clear him. J. Ehrlichman: It'd be lively copy when they start bringing in all these people from around the country. What they did or who were victims, you know - Pres. Nixon: It'd be lively copy, John, but it's so spongy. J. Ehrlichman: Yeah. - Lively. Pres. Nixon: It's not good stuff? (Unintelligible) Pres. Nixon: Well, let me explain my analysis. The - In my opinion, Bob, the forthcoming thing which I think. I tilted against - I think. I am now tilting for. I think any move right now - HR Haldeman: I think you've got - if you're going to do it, though, I think you've got to face the likelihood that Magruder or somebody is going to call for my resignation. I hired Segretti. I did hire Segretti. Pres. Nixon: You and Strachan. HR Haldeman: Yeah. The stuff over a period of time will have come back with these - Pres. Nixon: This is the first time? HR Haldeman: You've got a couple of others who should have been caught. Pres. Nixon: We've got to face that. HR Haldeman: You might want to try to tie it to a resignation at the time I do it. On the basis that, "Well, here is a mistake, and I have no problem with it. But I'm also not going to - not troubled with - don't want to shut down - without my sticking around - a Pres. Nixon: (Unintelligible) ought to resign which I (unintelligible). HR Haldeman: I'm not suggesting - I'm not suggesting I'd like to resign. I would not like to. Pres. Nixon: Yeah. HR Haldeman: I'd be willing to, without creating any sticky problems. Pres. Nixon: The duty of our, all our, the duty of our whole staff though is to play their role HR Haldeman: I'm free from some other things that I can cut loose, which I could do. The problem that is there on the other side is, there is some pluses to it. What about that? Pres. Nixon: With an Attorney General added in? - And a White House Counsel, possibly. HR Haldeman: Pretty big bag, John. J. Ehrlichman: The biggest. Pres. Nixon: Policy, that's the point. HR Haldeman: Yeah. Pres. Nixon: As far as equal protection, perspective, but it'll take some time. HR Haldeman: Assuredly (unintelligible) Pres. Nixon: I see. HR Haldeman: Well, fire some people, because you cannot Pres. Nixon: I have given them leave. If they should not fall under indictment, they can continue their duties. HR Haldeman: If they intend to plead innocent. Pres. Nixon: You know in the United States the chances are, you're going to plead innocent or guilty. And if you're going to plead guilty - innocent - Fine, you are suspended, I'll tell you when you can concentrate on the J. Ehrlichman: Sit out the Ervin negotiations and how we get out the investigation and all this. Pres. Nixon: Well this - as I say - I want to keep Ervin at the (unintelligible) but I kind of feel myself that (unintelligible) - J. Ehrlichman: With that being the case, and the Dean material - not to wait for him, to come in - maybe there's no need to grapple with it. HR Haldeman: If he breaks off, you could be affirmative with the Committee - Pres. Nixon: I think - J. Ehrlichman: My exponent - Pres. Nixon: Yes, and what would you say? You could say, "The President is directing this - he's not into (unintelligible)." Say, "Look here." (Unintelligible) I don't think that's needed tomorrow. I think that, I think you ought to meet with Ervin and cut the deal and then even though there isn't much of a compromise. You could say, "We worked on a compromise under which there is an Executive session. Dean goes - HR Haldeman: Dean goes free. Pres. Nixon: Dean in Executive session is a very nice way to cut a loss, huh? HR Haldeman: (Unintelligible) Pres. Nixon: Oh, that's not to you, Bob. Pres. Nixon: We put a story out which will keep the enemy a little cool for awhile, huh? J. Ehrlichman: Not only that, but you can date it back to negotiations commencing two weeks ago, three weeks ago, whatever it was. Pres. Nixon: Yeah. Yeah. HR Haldeman: You put it out my statement at the same time? Pres. Nixon: The next day. HR Haldeman: Wednesday. J. Ehrlichman: Wednesday. You should put my statement out on Wednesday also, or wait until Thursday for my statement. I think we better be right out in the open - Pres. Nixon: That's right. I'd put yours out right with it. You're going to have the next day to build it up a little. HR Haldeman: No - you don't want to build it up. Pres. Nixon: Put it right out. The problem here, let me say, in your case, is not Segretti. I think we should go with the Segretti stuff and then - The problem in your case is Strachan. I mean the - keeping the (unintelligible). HR Haldeman: (Unintelligible) Pres. Nixon: Oh, yes, you will testify on that. J. Ehrlichman: Sure, and it's secret. The question is whether Strachan is indicted or not. Pres. Nixon: If he is indicted? HR Haldeman: I think I've got to cover myself on the Strachan thing, as you say, in such a way so that if anything does happen it's covered and you can go back and see I said this guy - should not be built up as a central figure, nor should I start to explain his every action. I can't. Some of his actions were obviously carried out unilaterally. I think that's overly objective. Pres. Nixon: I think some of Magruder's stuff could be pretty lively. I think it's probably basically true. How do you remember back that far? Think of that - HR Haldeman: You can't be that precise - Pres. Nixon: You can't be that precise - You remember the things that you want to remember, pretty much. HR Haldeman: Well, especially when you've lived through a whole series of varying, very heated drives - Pres. Nixon: Careers. HR Haldeman: Like he has. Pres. Nixon: Careers. You've got to remember now, Magruder is going to be as potent a witness, and again - HR Haldeman: Strachan will be a strong witness too, and they're going to - Pres. Nixon: And they will say, "And who's going to lie? I mean, here's a guy who has a record of lying. He lied. Are you going to take his word against Strachan who did not lie. He came back to the U.S. Attorney." HR Haldeman: We can produce people around here who can give you five different stories that Magruder's told. Pres. Nixon: Who? HR Haldeman: Don't you think so? Pres. Nixon: What do you think Mr. Colson is going to be doing? You're not going to tell him this, are you? I wouldn't think so. J. Ehrlichman: Colson is undoubtedly sending all kinds of signals to Mr. Hunt - HR Haldeman: And that Chuck is overkill. He is his own worst enemy. Where the hell do you quit? Pres. Nixon: (Unintelligible) J. Ehrlichman: He says that the New York Times has a story that he was here for a meeting with me yesterday. HR Haldeman: He acts like it was the first time he has ever been into the White House (Unintelligible) I - Well, you fellows need a rest. HR Haldeman: Rest? There's that damn dinner. J. Ehrlichman: We'll grin at the White House Correspondents. HR Haldeman: That's no rest, that's work. Pres. Nixon: Well, a year from now. It will soon be different. J. Ehrlichman: Oh, yeah. Pres. Nixon: Nope, seriously - J. Ehrlichman: Six months. Pres. Nixon: Nope, sooner than you think. Let me tell you, John, the thing about all this that has concerned me is dragging the damn thing out. Dragging it out and being - and having it be the only issue in town. Now the thing to do now, have done. Indict Mitchell and all the rest and there'll be a horrible two weeks - a horrible, terrible scandal, worse than Teapot Dome and so forth. And it isn't - doesn't have anything to do with Teapot. J. Ehrlichman: Yeah. Pres. Nixon: I mean there is no venality involved in the damn thing, no thievery or anything of that sort of thing. Nobody got any papers. You know what I mean? J. Ehrlichman: Yeah. That's true. HR Haldeman: Glad to hear it. Pres. Nixon: The bad part of it is the fact that the Attorney General, and the obstruction of justice thing which it appears to be. And yet, they ought to go up fighting, in my view, a fighting position on that. I think they all ought to fight. That this was not an obstruction of justice, we were simply trying to help these defendants. Don't you agree on that or do you think that's my - is that - J. Ehrlichman: I agree. I think it's all the defendants, obviously. Pres. Nixon: I know if they could get together on the strategy. It would be pretty good for them. J. Ehrlichman: Well, I think, undoubtedly, that will shake down. Pres. Nixon: I would think that the U.S. Attorney's (unintelligible) HR Haldeman: Thank you, sir. J. Ehrlichman: Yes, sir.