Multimedia Mania/abacus-multimedia-mania.iso/dp/0119/01196.txt

Text File | 1993-07-27 | 14KB | 375 lines

$Unique_ID{bob01196}
$Pretitle{}
$Title{Nixon Tapes, The
April 14, 1973. (Approximately 6:00pm)}
$Subtitle{}
$Author{Various}
$Affiliation{}
$Subject{kleindienst
ehrlichman
magruder
talked
attorney
information
john
mitchell
now
pretty}
$Date{1974}
$Log{}
Title:       Nixon Tapes, The
Author:      Various
Date:        1974

April 14, 1973. (Approximately 6:00pm)

Telephone conversation:  John Ehrlichman and Richard Kleindienst

R. Kleindienst:  Hi, John

J. Ehrlichman:  Hi, General.  How are you?

R. Kleindienst:  Pretty good, how are you?

J. Ehrlichman:  How was the golf?

R. Kleindienst:  Half good and half bad.

J. Ehrlichman:  First half good?

R. Kleindienst:  Well, the middle was good and

J. Ehrlichman:  I want to bring you up to day on what I have been doing.  For
               about the last three weeks - well, since I saw you, before I
               saw you out in San Clemente - the President has had me trying
               to gather together, as you know, a certain amount of law and
               facts to be in a position to kind of substitute for Dean, and
               to advise him on the White House involvement, but even broader
               involvement, in this whole transaction.  Yesterday, I gave him
               my summary and, admittedly, it was hearsay, but some of it
               pretty reliable.  And the whole thing fit together pretty well
               as, at least, a working hypothesis.  One of the things that I
               told him was that I had encountered people who appeared to be
               reticent to come forward because they somehow felt that the
               Presidency was served by their not coming forward.  So he had
               me today, in a series of conversations with people, to
               straighten them around of that point.  The first one I talked
               to was your predecessor.  Then I talked to Magruder, and -

R. Kleindienst:  It's pretty hard to talk to those two when they have
               testified under oath before a Grand Jury.

J. Ehrlichman:  Well, as it turns out, I was just a little late in talking to
               Magruder, because he had just come back from telling everything
               to the U.S. Attorney.  He has decided to come clean.

R. Kleindienst:  No kidding?  Magruder?

J. Ehrlichman:  Yep.  He had his informal conference minutes before he came in
               to see me.

R. Kleindienst:  Would that be inconsistent with his testimony before the
               Grand Jury?

J. Ehrlichman:  Dramatically inconsistent.

R. Kleindienst:  (expletive removed)!

J. Ehrlichman:  And he implicates everybody in all directions up and down in
               the Committee to Re-Elect.

R. Kleindienst:  Mitchell?

J. Ehrlichman:  Yep, cold turkey.  My instructions after I had completed -
               well, I might say I also talked to a couple of other people who
               are around here just to pass the word to encourage them to
               testify, if the only reason they were not testifying was some
               concern about the Presidency.  Also, being very careful to say
               that I recognized everybody had rights, and that it didn't mean
               in anyway to indicate that they should not avail themselves of
               their full rights.  Now, Magruder then -

R. Kleindienst:  Let me ask one thing -

J. Ehrlichman:  Yep.

R. Kleindienst:  As a result of what you just told me, it would indicate there
               is a substantial case of perjury against Mitchell and Magruder
               in the first instance.

J. Ehrlichman:  Yep.  No question.

R. Kleindienst:  So, complicity in the overall conspiracy?

J. Ehrlichman:  More than just a participation in a conspiracy, Dick.

R. Kleindienst:  They would be principals?

J. Ehrlichman:  Yes, they are principals.

R. Kleindienst:  Uh.  I can't believe John Mitchell would have ever known that
               and let it go on.

J. Ehrlichman:  Well, I must say that my conversation with him was reassuring
               in that regard.  He is very steadfast in his protestations of
               innocence.  Well, the Magruder case is not only testamentary,
               but is circumstantial - is persuasive to me.

R. Kleindienst:  But Mitchell denied it?

J. Ehrlichman:  I saw Mitchell first.  I didn't have all of this Magruder
               business.  Now, here I am a citizen of the United States and
               the designated inquirer of a body of information.  My purpose
               and intent was to advise you of this when I got finished with
               this process and tender this information for whatever purpose
               it would serve, recognizing that up until just a few minutes
               ago it was almost entirely hearsay.  Magruder has just unloaded
               on me the substance of his conversation with the U.S. Attorney
               - informal conversation.  And I find that I now have very
               little to add to what Magruder had already given the U.S.
               Attorney.

R. Kleindienst:  That's not good.

J. Ehrlichman:  I felt that I should go forward and at least advise you of
               this and to -

R. Kleindienst:  John, at this point, it seems to me that you are going to
               have to be very careful.

J. Ehrlichman:  Let me spoil your afternoon completely, will you?  One of the
               things Magruder told me was - and his attorney who was with him
               corroborated - was that they are very concerned about Dean's
               facility for advising people at the Committee of the
               proceedings of the Grand Jury.

R. Kleindienst:  (unintelligible)

J. Ehrlichman:  Well, he was apparently informing Magruder and others of what
               the Grand Jury was saying and doing.

R. Kleindienst:  (unintelligible)

J. Ehrlichman:  And Silbert or someone else said to his attorney, well, we
               know the source of Dean's information and it was from higher
               up.

R. Kleindienst:  That is pretty speculative, because I don't think Henry
               Petersen would have told him.

J. Ehrlichman:  Well, anyway, there -

R. Kleindienst:  I couldn't have because I didn't know.

J. Ehrlichman:  there's that.  In any event, I remember what you told me
               before, and I originally had thought that perhaps something
               would be served by you and Sneed coming in and the three of us
               visiting, but this thing has taken the Magruder bounce, and I
               am inclined to think now that you ought to just tell Sneed the
               substance of this conversation.

R. Kleindienst:  He and I have kind of agreed to stay out of Watergate things.
               He knows nothing about it, has participated in no
               conversations.

J. Ehrlichman:  That is probably just as well, don't you think?

R. Kleindienst:  I think we better have one son-of-a-bitch in that Department
-

J. Ehrlichman:  Yep.

R. Kleindienst:  who's got -

J. Ehrlichman:  He can make the decisions that need to be made from here on.

R. Kleindienst:  Yeah.  I think at this point we ought to think very hard on
               the suggestion I made to you when I was out in San Clemente.

J. Ehrlichman:  Well, I think the President's feeling is that Sneed could do
               that.

R. Kleindienst:  Sneed could do that, but you wouldn't have any credibility
               with It.

J. Ehrlichman:  Well, I think he is pretty firm on that.

R. Kleindienst:  I would sure like to talk to him about it.

J. Ehrlichman:  OK, I think you should on Monday.

R. Kleindienst:  I really would, John.

J. Ehrlichman:  Alright.

R. Kleindienst:  Because there is no question but that Sneed can do it, not
               knowing about it. He was never there during any material period
               of time.  He is, however, the Deputy Attorney General - a
               Presidential appointee.

J. Ehrlichman:  I understand.

R. Kleindienst:  He is my subordinate.  OK?

J. Ehrlichman:  OK.  You give it some thought and we will too, and then we
               should talk on Monday.

R. Kleindienst:  I've thought of Sneed in this role because he has stayed out
               of it up to now.

J. Ehrlichman:  Uh, huh.

R. Kleindienst:  And I think that is why you might need a guy on the outside.

J. Ehrlichman:  Alright.

R. Kleindienst:  Incidentally, there are two or three people who are suggested
               for that role.  The Chief Justice contributed -

J. Ehrlichman:  Rogers passed those along to me.

R. Kleindienst:  It's got (unintelligible)

J. Ehrlichman:  Yeah.  A list.  Ok, my boy.  I just wanted you to have a nice
               time this evening.

R. Kleindienst:  (expletive removed)

J. Ehrlichman:  Don't forget my tender that if there is anyway that any of
               this hearsay of mine that I have collected is in anyway useful,
               I would be glad to make it available.  My present thinking is
               that it could add very little to what Magruder just told me.

R. Kleindienst:  Thinking of Magruder as a primary witness type.  You better
               be very careful what you do from here on out, John.  Don't put
               yourself in the position of -

J. Ehrlichman:  Prejudicing anybody's rights.

R. Kleindienst:  With respect to the Commission - That is why I am calling
               you, my dear.

R. Kleindienst:  Your's is a very God damn delicate line as to what you do to
               get information to give to the President and what you can do in
               giving information to the Department of Justice, you know, to
               enforce the law.

J. Ehrlichman:  Well you are my favorite law enforcement officer.

R. Kleindienst:  (unintelligible)

J. Ehrlichman:  Do you want me to give you anything additional on Monday?

R. Kleindienst:  Who did you talk to, John?

J. Ehrlichman:  What do you mean?  Mitchell and Magruder.

R. Kleindienst:  Those are the only two?

J. Ehrlichman:  Well, no I have been talking to people for three weeks.  I
               have talked to everybody but the milkman.

R. Kleindienst:  People on the President's staff?

J. Ehrlichman:  And outside, and people's lawyers, and every damn thing.

R. Kleindienst:  Until today, when the Magruder came up, did you come across
               any direct evidence that in your opinion amounted to conduct
               that violated the law?

J. Ehrlichman:  Yes.

R. Kleindienst:  You did.  Let me talk to Henry Petersen and see what line we
               ought to follow here.

J. Ehrlichman:  Alright.

R. Kleindienst:  Who else have you talked to about this besides myself?

J. Ehrlichman:  The President

R. Kleindienst:  But also the person that you talked to who would give you
               information about the commission of a crime, who did you tell
               that to?

J. Ehrlichman:  You know I have talked to him.

R. Kleindienst:  No - you talked to people that gave you this information.

J. Ehrlichman:  Well, I have talked to them and in some cases they know I have
               talked to other people.

R. Kleindienst:  Yeah.

J. Ehrlichman:  Well, they know that because they knew the source of my leads,
               etc.

R. Kleindienst:  Who else does Magruder implicate besides himself and
               Mitchell?

J. Ehrlichman:  Dean, LaRue, Mardian, Porter.

R. Kleindienst:  Magruder will say that Mardian knew about this before the
               discovery?

J. Ehrlichman:  No.  He is largely implicated on the obstruction of justice.

R. Kleindienst:  After the happening?

J. Ehrlichman:  Yeah.

R. Kleindienst:  He puts LaRue in?

J. Ehrlichman:  From stem to stern.

R. Kleindienst:  Did he make any statements with respect to the use of
               campaign monies to pay these guys off?  What do you know about
               that?  Fred LaRue is going to go to jail.  I guess you know
               that?

J. Ehrlichman:  Yep.

R. Kleindienst:  What persuaded him to do that?

J. Ehrlichman:  He just was having a terrible time living with it, and he
               didn't see any point in waiting any longer.  His attorneys said
               they analyzed it very carefully, and see no advantage to
               getting in and out.

R. Kleindienst:  Who is his attorney?

J. Ehrlichman:  A couple of very bright guys.  I have their names over there,
               but I can't tell you now.  Bernbaum and somebody else.  Sears,
               I think is the other guy.  I don't have the names right now.

R. Kleindienst:  Are you going to be in town Monday?

J. Ehrlichman:  Pardon?

R. Kleindienst:  Are you going to be in town Monday?

J. Ehrlichman:  Sure.

R. Kleindienst:  Are you going to be in town tomorrow?

J. Ehrlichman:  Sure.

R. Kleindienst:  I might want Henry and I to get together with you, just so we
               don't make any mistakes.

J. Ehrlichman:  Alright, let me know.

R. Kleindienst:  Have a nice evening!

J. Ehrlichman:  Thanks, Pal.  I will see you there.

R. Kleindienst:  Are you going to that same dinner?

J. Ehrlichman:  Oh yeah.  I am going to go and see Bernstein and what's his
               name, get their awards.

R. Kleindienst:  See you tomorrow.

J. Ehrlichman:  Alright.