ftp.xmission.com/2014.06.ftp.xmission.com.tar/ftp.xmission.com/pub/lists/zorn-list/archive/zorn-list.9809

Internet Message Format | 1998-09-30 | 693KB

From: patRice <[e-mail]>
Subject: marc ribot + tricky + greg cohen
Date: 01 Sep 1998 13:13:15 +0000

hi y'all...

i remember reading in a swiss mag that tricky's latest offering also
featured greg cohen on bass...


patRice

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From: "J.T. de Boer" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Zorn String Quartets/Stockhausen
Date: 01 Sep 1998 13:30:31 +0200

Hi,

for all of you living in Western Europe: Next season The Mondriaan
String Quartet (Netherlands) will perform the complete string
quartets of John Zorn. I'll send the concertdates as soon as
possible.

And for all of you who read German: this issue of Neue Zeitschrift
f=FCr Musik is completely dedicated to Karlheinz Stockhausen. Lots of
interviews and interesting articles.

Enjoy!

Jeroen

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From: Stefan Verstraeten <[e-mail]>
Subject: Recommendations for Aube
Date: 01 Sep 1998 14:29:34 +0200

Dear Zornies,

Since a lot of people here on the list dig 'musique concr=E8te', i think
some people might be interested.
Recently, i bought some cd' of Aube (Akifumi Nakajima), a japanese
performer -but not Merzbow style- who uses only one sound source on a
cd. I owne:
Pages from the book (sound source: bible pages)
Evocation (s.s.: brainwaves)
Metal de Metal (s.s.: metal)
Aqua Syndrome (s.s.: water)
I really recommend these cd's if you like ferrari, varese, cage,...
My question: does someone on this list have heard of other releases (and
on what label)???
--=20
Stefan Verstraeten

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From: "Benito Vergara" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Recommendations for Aube
Date: 01 Sep 1998 10:05:47 -0700

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail]
> [mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Stefan
> Verstraeten
> Sent: Tuesday, September 01, 1998 5:30 AM

> My question: does someone on this list have heard of other releases (and
> on what label)???

There's an Aube discography in a recent issue of Bananafish -- not the last
issue, but the one before that. Hmm. And there was a short article on Aube
in a recent issue of The Wire as well. Almost like Merzbow (but not quite),
Aube has a zillion releases on a zillion labels.

I'm afraid I really can't give more recommendations, since the ones you have
are the ones I have as well. "Pages from the Book" is fantastic, isn't it?
But I do have Aube vs. Cock E.S.P.'s "Maschinenwerk" (loud, buzzing drones)
and "Wired Trap" (from, uh, wires: even louder buzzing, found it rather
unlistenable).

Later,
Ben

np: captain beefheart, "when big joan sets up"

http://www.bigfoot.com/~bvergara/
ICQ# 12832406


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Zorn films from film works
Date: 01 Sep 1998 14:54:03 EDT

I've recently been re-reading the linear notes to the various John Zorn film
works CD's.  I was wondering if anybody have seen any of these movies /
shorts.  Are any available in the UK?  What are they like??  Descriptions
sound pretty extreme.  Will there be problems getting them past our scary
import men in the UK.  Any info. or cool pointers would be greatly
appreciated.

Thanks


Phil

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From: "Felix" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Recent Goodies (my turn)
Date: 01 Sep 1998 21:45:59 +0200

Well, I thought I'd do this too. Basically it's reviews of these albums I
got two days ago.

JOHN ZORN - SPILLANE
I wasn't too consious that this album existed. I checked Tzadik's site and
felt very attracted to The Bribe, and it was there that I heard of Spillane
(I'm sure some of you talked about it before on the list, but there are many
threads that pass me by). I searched some things about it and decided to buy
it. It's very good, completely blew my mind off. Two Lane Highway is beyond
anything I'd imagine Zorn doing - I never pictured him as a blues lover.
It's an excellent piece of work and got me worked up for The Bribe.

IKUE MORI - HEX KITCHEN
I knew nothing from Ikue Mori before (only as the designer of Weird Little
Boy), I only saw her live once (with Ribot, Coleman and others), but I heard
the real audios for this album and decided to get it. It's very good. Is the
rest of Mori's work similiar?

JOHN ZORN - FILMWORKS VI 1996
This album showed me three really different and really good soundtracks.
Anton, Mailman shows us a marvellous Ribot (it's basically him, the other
guys just sort of go along with him, Zorn solos in one track, shortly).
Mechanics of the Brain is also a good soundtrack featuring Feldman,
Friedlander, Ribot, Mori and Zorn (what a team!) It's a bit scary, ranging
from spooky ambient to string madness. It's brutal like Zorn said.

GARY LUCAS - BUSY BEING BORN
This is one of the funniest things I've heard in a while. The track Adon
Olom really got me singing and laughing. It shows an excellent guitarist
(Lucas) playing mostly with acoustic. It has two songs from the movie
"Fiddler on the roof", the first one benig excellent.

All of these albums are excellent and I highly recommend them to anyone who
doesn't have them already.

Felix
[e-mail]

[e-mail]



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From: Paul Audino <[e-mail]>
Subject: Tzadik Web Site Updated
Date: 01 Sep 1998 17:42:17 -0500 (CDT)


    After a hiatus of several months, the Tzadik web site has been
updated.  September's releases are now available to order two weeks ahead
of the U.S. release date and the list of October releases includes a few
goodies such as the new Naftule's Dream album, which is produced by Bill
Laswell, as well as...a new Massacre album!

P.S. Chicago fans on the list watch out for September visits by Marc
Feldman and the Ellery Eskelin Trio with Jim Black and Andrea Parkins.

Out 2 Lunch With Lunchmeat,

Paul
[e-mail]

  GROOVE
----------
One Nation



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From: DR S WILKIE <[e-mail]>
Subject:       birthday
Date: 02 Sep 1998 10:28:49 GMT0BST

isn't it Zorn's birthday today?!

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From: "Scott Handley" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: birthday
Date: 02 Sep 1998 06:27:27 PDT

Happy b.day, Zorno!  45!  Yeah, man!

No birthday concerts in NYC?

--s

>From: DR S WILKIE <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail]
>Date:          Wed, 2 Sep 1998 10:28:49 GMT0BST
>Subject:       birthday
>
>isn't it Zorn's birthday today?!
>
>-
>
>


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

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From: DR S WILKIE <[e-mail]>
Subject:       Re: Masada in Bonny Scotland
Date: 02 Sep 1998 14:23:39 GMT0BST

Was anyone - else - on this list at the Masada gig in Edinburgh, last
Friday (28th)?

Sean

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From: [e-mail] (Theo Klaase)
Subject: Marc Ribot
Date: 02 Sep 1998 10:26:43 -0500 (CDT)

Is Marc Ribot touring to support his latest release?  Does anyone have
the dates?  I live in New Orleans, and for a jazz city, No one seems
interested in playing here.  I fear I may have to fly to SF, New York,
or the likes, to see Zorn and the boys.


-Theo


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From: [e-mail] (Theo Klaase)
Subject: Reviews
Date: 02 Sep 1998 10:58:21 -0500 (CDT)

JZ - SPILLANE
A must have for any Zorn fan!

NAKED CITY - SELF TITLED ALBUM
fantastic, marvelous, the inroduction to a new band in which every
musician is an obvious superior talent.  another must have.

NAKED CITY - RADIO
a new direction with any loss of intensity.  dare I say another must
have.

NAKED CITY - TORCHER GARDEN
brilliantly brutal.  not for the weak stomach.  an unmatched intensity
for intensity's sake.  amazing, but you'd better be in the mood.

FILM-WORKS 1
somewhat different from the other film-works cds' in terms of the
consistant sound.  very interesting.  the beginings of a swing naked
city sound toward the end of the disc.

FILM-WORKS 3
Marc Ribot, Joey Baron, hell, everyone does a fine job.  a hint of
traditional jazz slapped in the face.  a serious problem if you don't
have it yet.
even though a lot of the songs are short,--it means nothing.  fantastic.

FILM WORKS 5
a spacey groove type disc.  each song last anywhere from 48 seconds to
1:12.  48 songs.
don't let that fool you.  Ribot is in top form again!  very, very good.

FILM-WORKS 6
the first 4 songs you've got to fall in love with.  Marc Ribot is
absolutely astonishing.  Also, on track 3 Zorn takes one of the finest
sax solos EVER.  some of the disc is evasive, but where it shines
bright, it surpasses all expectations.  It's a must have!

FILM WORKS 8
stunning.  a certainty.  if you don't have this album buy it next!  22
tracks of pure bliss.

CLASSIC GUIDE TO STRATEGY
maybe only for the Zorn completist.  lots of passion.  strange.  Zorn
treads water by himself constructing new instruments out of god knows
what.  (mostly sax and clarinet pieces)  did I hear a kazoo?  watch out
for this one.

JZ SPY VS. SPY
crazy!  I'm not sure if I like it.  I don't think I do.  the band is
made up of 2 drummers, 2 saxes, and a bass guitar.  each sax is panned
totally left and right.  furious.  must be played loud, if played at
all.  only for the Zorn completist.

JZ/Yamataka EYE
very crazy, although I like it more than spy vs. spy.  kind of what you
might expect from mike patton's 3rd release.  maybe only for the Zorn
competist.

JZ ELEGY
featuring Trey Spruance, Mike Patton, William Winant, among others.
dark. symphonic.  very strange.  slow.  dramatic.  buy the others before
you get this one.

Just in case you wondered about someone's perception.


-Theo


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From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Marc Ribot
Date: 02 Sep 1998 09:06:15 -0700


On Wed, 2 Sep 1998 10:26:43 -0500 (CDT)  Theo Klaase wrote:
>
> Is Marc Ribot touring to support his latest release?  Does anyone have
> the dates?  I live in New Orleans, and for a jazz city, No one seems
> interested in playing here.  I fear I may have to fly to SF, New York,
> or the likes, to see Zorn and the boys.

He was recently touring with Martin/Medeski/Wood and his band was the
opening act.

    Patrice.

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From: Brent Burton <[e-mail]>
Subject: amsterdam
Date: 02 Sep 1998 12:11:23 -0400 (EDT)


"Hey, do you think anyone on Zorn list has the low-down on the
avant/under/indie music scene in Amsterdam?-jpn"

i just got this question from a friend.  any off-list replies would be
greatly appreciated.

b

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From: "richard gardner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re:       Re: Masada in Bonny Scotland
Date: 02 Sep 1998 18:42:04 +0100


-----Original Message-----


>Was anyone - else - on this list at the Masada gig in Edinburgh, last
>Friday (28th)?
>
>Sean
>
>-
>

I was certainly there and I must say it was one of the greatest gigs of my
life. Thank God Masada have finally come to the UK.

Big shocks:
John Zorn no glasses and shoulder length hair.
The band set up their own gear no big crew.
But biggest shock of all no PA only a small bass amp.

One number was 191 does this mean Masada have a list of at least 190 tunes
to call on?!

Music for the Gods!

Richard G


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From: Caleb Deupree <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Masada songbook
Date: 02 Sep 1998 13:53:33 -0400

>>>>> "richard" == richard gardner <[e-mail]> writes:

    richard> One number was 191 does this mean Masada have a list of
    richard> at least 190 tunes to call on?!

The lines notes for Filmworks 8 say that there are around 200 songs in
the Masada songbook, not all of which are appropriate for the Masada
quartet (which is why they show up on Filmworks 8, which has groups
with different instrumentation).

---
Caleb T. Deupree
;; Opinions...  funny thing about opinions, they can change.

Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers.
(Pablo Picasso)


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From: Dan Hewins <[e-mail]>
Subject: Recent Goodie
Date: 02 Sep 1998 16:35:53 -0500

The Lounge Lizards "Queen of All Ears" is excellent.

You should all get this and hear it.  The rhythm section carries the album
along very well.  The compositions are like butter but they taste better,
more like candy.

That's all.

Dan



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: spy vs spy
Date: 02 Sep 1998 20:40:17 EDT

>JZ SPY VS. SPY
crazy!  I'm not sure if I like it.  I don't think I do.  the band is
made up of 2 drummers, 2 saxes, and a bass guitar.  each sax is panned
totally left and right.  furious.  must be played loud, if played at
all.  only for the Zorn completist.

i actually LOVE this record. usually when people tell me they just got it,
they subsequently say, "its kinda hard to listen to. it might take some
getting used to." if you like ornette, obviously you'll appreciate this
record.
$0.02

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From: "Caleb T. Deupree" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Book review: Roger Sutherland, _New Perspectives in Music_
Date: 02 Sep 1998 22:32:09 -0400

The material in this book covers experimental music on both sides of the
Atlantic since WWII, and thus relates most obviously to the Cage list.
However, its discussion of Fluxus and improvisation pertain to several
recent threads on the Zorn list, so I'm sending this review to both.  My
apologies to those who receive it twice.

Roger Sutherland is a member of the improvising group Morphogenesis and has
been active in music since the late 1960s, when he was a member of the
(in)famous Scratch Orchestra.  His involvement makes him well qualified to
write this wide ranging collection of articles about new music, _New
Perspectives in Music_ (sun tavern fields, London, 1994), starting from
Russolo and Cowell, through IRCAM and AMM.  100 of the 240 pages are
devoted to the European avant-garde, 80 to the American experimentalists,
and the remainder to a miscellaneous 'Transatlantic Perspectives.'

I have to open with a slight disappointment.  With a pub date of 1994, I
expected more information on recent developments, whereas most of the
musicians and artists whose work is discussed here belong to the 1950s,
1960s, and 1970s.  He opens with the setting of Luigi Russolo in his
rightful place as the first purveyor of complex sounds we call noise taking
the place of music, a decade before Varese's best known pieces, then moves
on to Webern, from whom descend the absolute serialism practiced by the
Europeans Stockhausen and Boulez, and the relative chaos practiced by the
Americans of the New York School (Cage et al.).  This dichotomy between
chaos and order informs the whole book.

However, even discussing these seminal musicians and composers, there is
still quite a bit of material not generally covered elsewhere.  He has
chapters on Cage (the longest chapter in the book, but not covering the
later works at all), Stockhausen, Nono and Parmegiani, two on Xenakis, live
electronics (including not only Cartridge Music and Mikrophonie, but also
works by Alvin Lucier, Richard Teitelbaum, and David Tudor), improvisation
(AMM, MEV, the Taj Mahal Travellers), imaginary orchestras (IRCAM), and
sound sculptures (Hugh Davies, Partch, Bertoia).  Each chapter has a
bibliography and discography, and many are illustrated with the graphic
scores that were so much a part of the period.  There are several
photographs, a more extensive bibliography (both general and specific) in
the back, and biographies of most of the major composers.  Access to the
DGG Avant Garde series and other vinyl classics which haven't been reissued
on CD would be helpful, although the discography specifically mentions
currently available CDs.  His discussion of Fluxus puts the discussion of
wankery which we had recently into some kind of perspective (I think
placing flowers on a piano and titling this 'Piano Piece 1962' (George
Brecht) could constitute wankery in some measure).

The best chapters (on improvisation and sound sculpture) showed me the
continuum between much of the contemporary music I find interesting
(including Polwechsel, Evan Parker's Electroacoustic Ensemble, Zorn's game
pieces, and Butch Morris's conductions) and the music which got me started
down this road years ago (Cage and Stockhausen), which I had forgotten
along with the dusty records in the basement.  Overall a fascinating read.



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From: Yves Dewulf <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Masada in Bonny Scotland
Date: 03 Sep 1998 09:43:32 +0200


The Masada String trio played something like "218" and they had
a huge pile of music-sheets with them.

YVes






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From: Yves Dewulf <[e-mail]>
Subject: Marc Ribot
Date: 03 Sep 1998 09:52:32 +0200



Anyone knows if there is a more or less complete
Marc Ribot-discography on the net ?


YVes


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From: dennis summers <[e-mail]>
Subject: Zorn's Touring Habits/Chicago
Date: 03 Sep 1998 07:21:25 -0600

I can't speak for Chicago, but the guys who book shows here in Detroit, say
that JZ charges a hell of a lot of money (more than most "fringe" acts), and
they don't think they could make it back.

yours in zornocity --ds
***Quantum Dance Works***
****http://ic.net/~denniss****


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From: Jeff Spirer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Praxis Tour - West Coast
Date: 03 Sep 1998 09:12:53 -0700

This is a more or less final schedule for the West Coast tour of Praxis.

Sept 17 San Diego, Belly Up
Sept 18 Santa Barbara, probably at the Ventura Theater
Sept 19 LA, Troubador
Sept 20 SF, Slim's

Previously announced dates in Seattle/Portland/Vancouver look like they
won't happen.

Lineup is Buckethead, Bill Laswell, Brain, and a DJ.

Jeff Spirer
B&W Photos: http://www.pomegranates.com/frame/spirer/
Color and B&W Photos: http://www.hyperreal.org/~jeffs/gallery.html
Axiom/Material: http://www.hyperreal.org/axiom/
Jeff Spirer
B&W Photos: http://www.pomegranates.com/frame/spirer/
Color and B&W Photos: http://www.hyperreal.org/~jeffs/gallery.html
Axiom/Material: http://www.hyperreal.org/axiom/

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From: "Keith McMullen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Praxis Tour - West Coast
Date: 03 Sep 1998 08:52:09 -0700

This is a more or less final schedule for the West Coast tour of Praxis.

Sept 18 Santa Barbara, probably at the Ventura Theater
_________________________


So on the 18th I get to see Praxis in Ventura (not SB if it's the Ventura
Theater), on the 20th--Picasso from MOMA at LACMA, on the 21st--Tim Berne in
LA at New Music Modays.

As they say in Southern California: BITCHIN' DUDE.

Keith



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From: "Keith McMullen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Praxis Tour - West Coast
Date: 03 Sep 1998 09:32:55 -0700

Chadbourne's in Ventura CA this weekend.

Friday for free solo at The Daily Grind.

Sunday for $6 in a trio with two turntable-ists at Art City II.



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From: "Edward Lutiy" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Spy Vs. Spy
Date: 04 Sep 1998 00:00:22 +0400

[e-mail] wrote:
>JZ SPY VS. SPY
>crazy!  I'm not sure if I like it.  I don't think I do.  the band is
>made up of 2 drummers, 2 saxes, and a bass guitar.  each sax is panned
                                                             ~~~~~~~~
I think Mark Dresser plays acoustic bass on the record. Maybe I'm wrong?
Anyone knows records where Mark plays electric bass? Second soundtrack on
Filmworks 1986-1990???


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From: Anne & Dan Dellosso <[e-mail]>
Subject: tzadik web page
Date: 03 Sep 1998 16:15:03 -0700

has anyone tried to order any of the new cds from the tzadik web page,
i've tried but the messages don't seem to be going through. just
wondering if anyone has had success with it .  or even if the page is
operating.  also does anyone have any info on when the rerecorded
"godard" cd is coming out.

        dan


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From: "Felix" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Reviews
Date: 04 Sep 1998 00:36:13 +0200

I thought I'd comment on your reviews and add a few of my own.

>JZ - SPILLANE
>A must have for any Zorn fan!

Definately! The album is amazing!

>NAKED CITY - SELF TITLED ALBUM
>fantastic, marvelous, the inroduction to a new band in which every
>musician is an obvious superior talent.  another must have.
>
>NAKED CITY - RADIO
>a new direction with any loss of intensity.  dare I say another must
>have.

These are albums that I constantely hear. I find myself singing the tunes in
this album in the most akward situations. Think Radio is better, more
coherent, better production sound, but that's just a matter of opinion.

>NAKED CITY - TORCHER GARDEN
>brilliantly brutal.  not for the weak stomach.  an unmatched intensity
>for intensity's sake.  amazing, but you'd better be in the mood.

I hope you mean Torture Garden... This album is not only brutal, it defines
brutality. It's amazing to see that set of excellent musicians going wild
like they were playing grind core or something. Particularly like the
Zorn/Eye duels (screams vs. sax).

>FILM-WORKS 1
>somewhat different from the other film-works cds' in terms of the
>consistant sound.  very interesting.  the beginings of a swing naked
>city sound toward the end of the disc.

This one has definately a Naked City primitive feel to it, but I think that
feel is throughout the whole album, not just the end. The end is full of
those marvellous horror-movie-like tunes, like Death Waltz Fantasy (a
complete surprise, I never imagined Zorn doing stuff like that before
hearing it).

>FILM-WORKS 6
>the first 4 songs you've got to fall in love with.  Marc Ribot is
>absolutely astonishing.  Also, on track 3 Zorn takes one of the finest
>sax solos EVER.  some of the disc is evasive, but where it shines
>bright, it surpasses all expectations.  It's a must have!

I think Ribot is absolutely excellent in this album! I like the tracks with
Mori too. Friedlander and Fldman basically go wild! Zorn's playing with the
saounds of the elements takes a while getting used to, however. But it's
definately a must have!

>JZ ELEGY
>featuring Trey Spruance, Mike Patton, William Winant, among others.
>dark. symphonic.  very strange.  slow.  dramatic.  buy the others before
>you get this one.

I did the opposite. This was the first Zorn album I ever bought. And I only
came to appreciate it after some serious listening. Now it's one of my
favourites. (Funny how I was telling myself that I shouldn't have begun with
the likes of this album when I started hearing Zorn's music...)

And I have these to add:

JOHN ZORN - KRISTALLNACHT
I was once subscribed to the Echo Canyon Sonic Youth mailing list. There
once was a guy who asked around for help in buying Zorn material. I
suggested this album among others and a few days later, I received a mail
bomb from a guy that said that Kristallnacht was a Nazi album. I never heard
of such ignorance. I had to calmly reply to him that it's not possible for
Krystallnacht to be a Nazi album because of obvious reasons that you must be
familiar with. The guy never replied.
Anyway, this album is very good, full of jewish memories. Appeals specially
for the Masada fans, but for those who can take Elegy too. With Wynant,
Feldman, Friedlander, Krakauer and Frank London.

NAKED CITY - GRAND GUIGNOL
I'm not sure how this album came to being and where, but it's very good.
Includes Troture Garden, but the rest is not like it at all. First track is
a lengthy original, sort of ambient. The rest are curious adaptations of
classics like Debussy (La Cathdrale Englutie), for example. A must have, if
you can find it.

NAKED CITY - ABSINTHE
The weirdest (and last, I think) Naked City album. Doesn't feature Eye, and
the rest of the guys are hardly recognized in the playing. This is one of
the best ambient albums I've heard. It's very dark and moody, sometimes
scary. This is one of the albums I play less, but definately one of my
favourites.

MYSTIC FUGU ORCHESTRA - ZOHAR
Zorn and Eye. Weird, very weird. For the Zorn completist. Zorn plays a
little organ (I think) and Eye sings little tunes and ditties (no words),
with alot (and I DO mean ALOT) of background noise, as though it were a very
old record.

Felix
[e-mail]


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From: Barry Gilbert <[e-mail]>
Subject: Zorn on the internet
Date: 03 Sep 1998 21:07:48 -0600

Pardon my shameless plug, but I've moved my Zorn radio show from my local
community radio station to an internet radio station. The show is called
Zornithology and is aired on a new site: www.radioM.com. It currently airs
Mondays at 8PM, and repeated Wednesdays at 5 PM and Fridays at 8PM (all
times eastern). Each show is an hour long and focuses on specific areas of
Zorn's music. This week's show covers his coolaborations with Chadbourne,
next week is about Cobra, and subsequent shows will cover his bebop stuff,
cartoon-related stuff, and more. Check it out and send feedback. I welcome
any input.
Barry Gilbert
Boulder, Colorado

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From: clockwise <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn's Touring Habits/Chicago
Date: 03 Sep 1998 22:49:11 -0500

At 07:21 AM 9/3/98 -0600, you wrote:
>I can't speak for Chicago, but the guys who book shows here in Detroit, say
>that JZ charges a hell of a lot of money (more than most "fringe" acts), and
>they don't think they could make it back.


I heard the same from the guy who brought Masada to Madison, Wisconsin, he
said he lost over $2000, and wouldn't ever book them again.

peace

clockwise


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From: Doug Tapia <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Reviews
Date: 04 Sep 1998 00:24:09 -0600

>Subject:     Reviews
>Sent:        9/2/98 9:58 AM
>Received:    9/3/98 8:15 AM
>From:        Theo Klaase, [e-mail]
>To:          [e-mail]
>
Enjoyed your micro reviews of some of the more popular Zorn releases.  I
think I'll have to go buy a couple more of the Filmworks series!

>JZ SPY VS. SPY
>crazy!  I'm not sure if I like it.  I don't think I do.  the band is
>made up of 2 drummers, 2 saxes, and a bass guitar.  each sax is panned
>totally left and right.  furious.  must be played loud, if played at
>all.  only for the Zorn completist.
>
It's an acoustic (upright bass)  It's all Ornette compositions and is
very much in the mold of Ornette's _Free Jazz_ conseptually:  Basically
Tim Berne vs. John Zorn.  Knowing the tunes and their original Ornette
versions is a big help.   Very cool if you approach it from this vantage
point.
>
>Just in case you wondered about someone's perception.
>
Always wondering about other people's opinions,

-Doug


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Doug Tapia <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re:       Re: Masada in Bonny Scotland
Date: 04 Sep 1998 00:24:15 -0600


>Big shocks:
>John Zorn no glasses and shoulder length hair.
>The band set up their own gear no big crew.
>But biggest shock of all no PA only a small bass amp.
>
>One number was 191 does this mean Masada have a list of at least 190 tunes
>to call on?!
>

Indeed. It's a huge book that is still ocasionally added to.

>Music for the Gods!
>
>Richard G
>
>
>-
>

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Saidel Eric J <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn's Touring Habits/Chicago
Date: 04 Sep 1998 07:19:46 -0500 (CDT)


According to clockwise:
>
> At 07:21 AM 9/3/98 -0600, you wrote:
> >I can't speak for Chicago, but the guys who book shows here in Detroit, say
> >that JZ charges a hell of a lot of money (more than most "fringe" acts), and
> >they don't think they could make it back.
>
>
> I heard the same from the guy who brought Masada to Madison, Wisconsin, he
> said he lost over $2000, and wouldn't ever book them again.
>
> peace
>
> clockwise
>

I wonder about this, unless Masada was in Madison fairly recently,
brought by some promoter other than Tag Team.  The first time they
came to Madison (which was before any of the cds had been released,
but after Zorn was a big enough name to fill the hall at fairly high
ticket prices - they had reserved seats for $20 and general admission
for $15 in a hall which usually was just general admission for around
$12) they did well enough that the same promoter brought Cobra a
few months later.

- eric



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "hijk" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Carl Stalling
Date: 04 Sep 1998 08:57:38 -0400

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Does Zorn plan on being involved in any more of the Carl
Stalling Projects?

Jeff Kent
[e-mail]

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<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Does Zorn plan on being involved in =
any more of=20
the Carl</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Stalling Projects?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Jeff Kent</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 =
size=3D2>[e-mail]</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: Bob Kowalski <[e-mail]>
Subject: wayne and marc
Date: 04 Sep 1998 09:45:06 -0400

Mr Ribot is on a new Winter and Winter release that also has Eugene
Chadbourne.  Any word good or bad on this?  Wayne Horovitz has an
excellent new disc out on Intuition (a greater by the release label.)
;>)
Bob

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jason Tors <[e-mail]>
Subject: leaving... for a little while
Date: 04 Sep 1998 10:24:33 -0600

I am leaving for a short trip to france, then starting a new job. I will
join back up at the end of the month. Farewell fellows and fellas.



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "hijk" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fantomas?
Date: 04 Sep 1998 20:29:38 -0400

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What's the word on Mike Patton's new band Fantomas?  I hear they are=20
going in a "Naked City" type direction...

Jeff Kent


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<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>What's the word on Mike Patton's new =
band=20
Fantomas?  I hear they are </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>going in a "Naked City" type=20
direction...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Jeff Kent</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: clockwise <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn's Touring Habits/Chicago
Date: 04 Sep 1998 19:57:55 -0500

>I wonder about this, unless Masada was in Madison fairly recently,
>brought by some promoter other than Tag Team.  The first time they
>came to Madison (which was before any of the cds had been released,
>but after Zorn was a big enough name to fill the hall at fairly high
>ticket prices - they had reserved seats for $20 and general admission
>for $15 in a hall which usually was just general admission for around
>$12) they did well enough that the same promoter brought Cobra a
>few months later.
>
>- eric
>
>


it was before they had recorded when i saw Masada (someone in the crowd
yelled out "RECORD!!!" and he replied "We play it once, and its gone
forever"), and I was completely unaware that Cobra played Madison, I went
to Chicago to see it. now that you say that, the guy i talked to may have
been referring to the Cobra show and not the Masada show (we were
discussing Zorn in general, and the specific project wasnt mentioned in the
conversation.

peace

clockwise


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Dave Trenkel)
Subject: Re: Praxis Tour - West Coast
Date: 04 Sep 1998 19:03:31 -0700

At 9:12 AM 9/3/98, Jeff Spirer wrote:
>This is a more or less final schedule for the West Coast tour of Praxis.
>
>Sept 17 San Diego, Belly Up
>Sept 18 Santa Barbara, probably at the Ventura Theater
>Sept 19 LA, Troubador
>Sept 20 SF, Slim's
>
>Previously announced dates in Seattle/Portland/Vancouver look like they
>won't happen.
>
>Lineup is Buckethead, Bill Laswell, Brain, and a DJ.
>
I saw an ad in today's Portland paper for a Praxis show on the 23rd, at the
Alladin Theater. Is this show indeed happening (please please please)?

________________________________________________________
Dave Trenkel : [e-mail]  : www.peak.org/~improv/

"...there will come a day when you won't have to use
gasoline. You'd simply take a cassette and put it in
your car, let it run. You'd have to have the proper
type of music. Like you take two sticks, put 'em
together, make fire. You take some notes and rub 'em
together - dum, dum, dum, dum - fire, cosmic fire."
                                            -Sun Ra
________________________________________________________



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Spirer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Praxis Tour - West Coast
Date: 04 Sep 1998 19:33:56 -0700

The ads were placed prior to the change in the schedule.  As of today,
there are no gigs in the Pacific Northwest.

At 07:03 PM 9/4/98 -0700, Dave Trenkel wrote:
>At 9:12 AM 9/3/98, Jeff Spirer wrote:
>>This is a more or less final schedule for the West Coast tour of Praxis.
>>
>>Sept 17 San Diego, Belly Up
>>Sept 18 Santa Barbara, probably at the Ventura Theater
>>Sept 19 LA, Troubador
>>Sept 20 SF, Slim's
>>
>>Previously announced dates in Seattle/Portland/Vancouver look like they
>>won't happen.
>>
>>Lineup is Buckethead, Bill Laswell, Brain, and a DJ.
>>
>I saw an ad in today's Portland paper for a Praxis show on the 23rd, at the
>Alladin Theater. Is this show indeed happening (please please please)?
>
>________________________________________________________
>Dave Trenkel : [e-mail]  : www.peak.org/~improv/
>
>"...there will come a day when you won't have to use
>gasoline. You'd simply take a cassette and put it in
>your car, let it run. You'd have to have the proper
>type of music. Like you take two sticks, put 'em
>together, make fire. You take some notes and rub 'em
>together - dum, dum, dum, dum - fire, cosmic fire."
>                                            -Sun Ra
>________________________________________________________
>
Jeff Spirer
B&W Photos: http://www.pomegranates.com/frame/spirer/
Color and B&W Photos: http://www.hyperreal.org/~jeffs/gallery.html
Axiom/Material: http://www.hyperreal.org/axiom/

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Keith McMullen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Eugene In Ventura
Date: 04 Sep 1998 22:40:05 -0700

Music for Prepared Toaster, Shoe, Screwdriver, and Large Coffee Percolator
transcended the genre.

Stunning.

s~Z



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Bob Kowalski <[e-mail]>
Subject: new just in
Date: 05 Sep 1998 14:55:18 -0400

Hey there,
Anyone hear the latest Winter & Winter disc w/ Ribot & Chadbourne on
it?  Good?  A racket and a half or more on the mellow side?  I did pick up
a wonderful new Wayne Horovitz CD 4+1 Ensemble ... great stuff, in the
vein of his last solo album.
happy listening.
Bob

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Artur Nowak" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Interview with Zorn
Date: 06 Sep 1998 16:54:33 +0200

FYI:

This is a mail form Fabio Rojas <[e-mail]> sent to
re.music.bluenote:

> I opened up the Chicago Tribune today and found the following
> interview by conservative columnist Eric Zorn of jazz/free music
> sensation John Zorn. Check out the Tribune's web page: www.tribune.com
> for the original.
>
> _______
>
> A few days ago I had the rare opportunity to interview jazz
> artist John Zorn about morals, values and families in America.
> Here are some excerpts:
>
> E. Zorn: You are a very controversial person, Mr. Zorn. People have
> claimed that your music, especially in works like Painkiller,
> encourage young people to ponder suicide? How do you respond?
>
> J. Zorn: Well, I think it goes back to my early "game pieces". Games
as
> everybody knows are the work of the devil. I only realized this
> when I was playing a composition called "Ouija Board" with
> Bill (Laswell) and Elliott (Sharp). We accidentally conjured
> one of the minions of Set during a rehearsal. It was cool but rather
> unexpected. After sacrificing some family values to this creature,
> he showed me the secret to success and this lead to more pacts with
the
> Devil. By the way, and I know it's kind of cheesy to plug your
> records during an interview, but I just have to let all my fans
> know that I have just released recordings of my negotiations with
> Set, Mephistopheles and other demons in a new box set of 5 CD's
> called "Bill Gates Would Be Proud; early recordings of Naked
> City making Deals with the Devil 1985-1989".
>
> E. Zorn: That's fascinating, John. How did you get into the
> business of undermining the institution of marriage ?
>
> J. Zorn: After my little encounter with good old Scratch, it was
> easy. First, I moved to New York. I had to do that because ALL
> EVIL starts from there. You get good only by learning from the pros.
> Second, I started a Japanese lablel. That was the key to my success.
> Since the exchange rates are so wretched and the Japanese
> will buy anything American, I was able to accumulate enough
> cash to start my campaign to undermine various sacred institutions.
> Then I picked up Dave Douglass. Ohhhh... it all started to click...
>
> E. Zorn:  How does Douglass fit into this?
>
> J. Zorn: Y'see, ol' buddy, Dave also made a deal with the Devil.
> In exchange for fantastic coverage in Downbeat and Cadence,
> how do you think he gets the Talent Deserving Wider Recognition, huh?,
> he now  has to do my bidding. Together with me, him and Frissell
> we now issue so many records and box sets that children are forced
> to buy and use to drive their parents crazy. It's breaking
> families apart and I love it!!!
>
> E. Zorn: I must admit that with the consistently high quality
> music and well-designed art and packaging that I can't resist
> buying multiple copies of every Tzadik release. It's gotten
> so bad that my own wife has threatened to leave me. She threatened
> to tear me a new one when she saw my credit card bill.
>
> J. Zorn: See? My plan is going like clockwork!! In no time at all,
> I will take over this country and declare a state of Tzadik.
> Out with Francis Scott Key and in with Japanese Noise Bands!!
> WAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!! JOIN ME AT THE RIGHT HAND OF ZORN, ZORN!!!
> WE WILL RULE THE UNIVERSE TOGETHER UNDER THE TWIN FLAGS OF
> AVANT AND TZADIK!! EVEN JAZZIZ AND CROUCH WILL BOW DOWN BEFORE US!!
>
> E. Zorn: Ok.
>
> J. Zorn: Well, that was easy.
>
> __________________
>
> -fabio



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Spirer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Interview with Zorn
Date: 06 Sep 1998 09:11:18 -0700

At 04:54 PM 9/6/98 +0200, Artur Nowak wrote:

>> A few days ago I had the rare opportunity to interview jazz
>> artist John Zorn about morals, values and families in America.
>> Here are some excerpts:..

Excellent interview, but one has to wonder why certain questions weren't
asked, for example, why Zorn includes subliminal coding in all Masada CDs
exhorting white American men to tie up Japanes women.  Or why the recently
released Painkiller compilation, when put into the CD-ROM player, pops up
images of  Zorn and Laswell knifing Jesse Helms and Le Pin.  What are the
messages about values contained in these?




Jeff Spirer
B&W Photos: http://www.pomegranates.com/frame/spirer/
Color and B&W Photos: http://www.hyperreal.org/~jeffs/gallery.html
Axiom/Material: http://www.hyperreal.org/axiom/

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Benito Vergara" <[e-mail]>
Subject: little update on Zorn in SF
Date: 06 Sep 1998 12:03:07 -0700

Just thought you folks would be interested: the concert dates are at Slim's
in San Francisco on Sept. 15 and 16; the first concert is billed as "An
Evening with John Zorn, Mike Patton and Dave Lombardo."

The one on the 16th is "John Zorn's Xu-Feng with Trey Spruance, John Schott,
Chris Brown, Dave Slusser, Dave Lombardo and William Winant / Mike Patton's
Feedback Etudes and Phono Sanjo."

Grrr -- and I only bought tickets for the first date, too.

Later,
Ben

http://www.bigfoot.com/~bvergara/
ICQ# 12832406


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: stephen drury <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: piano pieces
Date: 06 Sep 1998 23:42:39 -0400

Somebody asked recently about getting ahold of printed scores.  Zorn is in
the process of printing and publishing some of his own music and making it
available for purchase over the net.  At least this was the most recent
plan.  I would imagine there'll be an announcement from Tzadik if and when
it comes to fruition.  If I hear anything more I'll drop a line here.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Bruno Bissonnette" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Last Exit videos... Bungle?
Date: 06 Sep 1998 21:19:18 PDT

Hi all Zornophiles,

Here's something I'm quite curious about: is there any live video
footage of Last Exit out there?  I figure there's probably no official
release (maybe an obscure European TV broadcast?), but how about
bootlegs, crowd shot videos by fans, of any sort?  What would it take to
get my hands on this stuff if it exists?

One more thing (at the risk of sounding very obnoxious): a common
question, but it's true it has been a little while now... what's up with
Mr. Bungle?  Did they really get around to recording this summer, and if
so will it be released by 1999?  Thanks (and sorry!).

Bruno Bissonnette
Musician/Guitarist
Math Student, Sherbrooke University


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: FJG_Lamerikx <[e-mail]>
Subject: Keiji Haino
Date: 07 Sep 1998 08:13:27 +0200 (MET DST)

Excuse me if this is slightly off subject, but after all Zorn and Haino have
collaborated in the past...

I've fallen completely in love with Haino's Fushitsusha recently, and an
imminent business trip to Japan will put me in the position of being able to
buy some more of the good man's releases. So here are my questions:

1) What's your opinion on "Allegorical Misunderstanding". In all the interviews
   and articles I have on Haino, this one seems to attract the least attention.
   FYI, I own "Fushitsusha I", "Hisou (Pathetique)", "The Time Is Nigh",
   "A Death Never To Be Complete", "Gold Blood", and "The Wisdom Prepared",
   all of which I love.
2) What solo Haino releases should I pick up?
3) Is the 4CD box set "The Soul's True Love" still available?

All information appreciated,

Frankco.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: twofer
Date: 07 Sep 1998 02:17:12 EDT

ok. not a big deal, but i finally broke down and bought plexure by john
oswald. i had it on tape for a while and decided to break my dollar a minute
rule and buy the damn thing outright. the disc clocks in at about 19:30, but i
don't think most people would want any more than that. if you are not
familiar, plexure is a plunderphonic record. oswald manipulates samples of
music you'll probably recognize and weaves them together to make soundscapes
(for lack of a better term). also, i'm not really upset that its only about 20
min long because i have done some of this kind of thing myself (though not to
this refined degree, by any stretch of the imagination) and i appreciate how
long this kind of thing takes. definitely getting heavy rotation. anybody have
a list of ALL the samples?

now for the twofer. does anyone (patrice?) know of any "good" (you guys know
what i mean) cd stores in wash. dc?

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: twofer
Date: 07 Sep 1998 02:26:48 -0400

[e-mail] wrote:

> now for the twofer. does anyone (patrice?) know of any "good" (you guys know
> what i mean) cd stores in wash. dc?

Ghod, I wish I did. The CD scene here in DC is pretty pathetic. I save up
for runs into NYC for serious music-related wallet damage.

OTOH, if there was good CD snarfage to be had here, I'd probably be
utterly broke.

--
---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re:  Re: twofer
Date: 07 Sep 1998 02:29:02 EDT


In a message dated 9/7/98 2:27:35, you wrote:

>OTOH, if there was good CD snarfage to be had here, I'd probably be
>utterly broke.

kind of a double edged sword, huh?

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: haino
Date: 07 Sep 1998 02:32:47 EDT

>) What's your opinion on "Allegorical Misunderstanding". In all the
interviews
   and articles I have on Haino, this one seems to attract the least
attention.

before you know it, this will be the only thing you listen to (at least for a
while). i was kinda disappointed when i first got this. then i gave it another
chance. i found some things i liked. i kept listening. i liked more and more
of it. all of a sudden, i didn't need a 5 disc changer anymore. i recommend it
highly.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: twofer
Date: 07 Sep 1998 02:36:17 -0400

[e-mail] wrote:
>
> In a message dated 9/7/98 2:27:35, you wrote:
>
> >OTOH, if there was good CD snarfage to be had here, I'd probably be
> >utterly broke.
>
> kind of a double edged sword, huh?

Well, broke but happy :-) Fortunately, I just got a box of CDs I
ordered over the Net from Downtown Music Gallery in NYC, so I'm not
*too* grunged out over the local CD scene at the moment...

--
---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Simon Hopkins <[e-mail]>
Subject: Keiji Haino
Date: 07 Sep 1998 11:56:00 +0000


>Excuse me if this is slightly off subject, but after all Zorn and Haino have
>collaborated in the past...
>
You might be interested in our review of Fushitsusha's "The Wisdom
Prepared" - complete with sound samples - on motion:

http://www.state51.co.uk/motion/

cheers

simon and dan @ state51





simon hopkins

a    c/o state51  91 brick lane  london e1
c    00 44 (0)973 654 276
e    [e-mail]  or [e-mail]

worldwide representation for:

kevin martin (techno animal, ice, the sidewinder, the bug)
justin broadrick (godflesh, techno animal, ice, the sidewinder)
paul schⁿtze (7░, phantom city)
the sons of silence
arashi vs red king
magus designs
nikky twyman on-line editing and proofreading

sh is an associate member of the state51 conspiracy

check out the ---+ motion website:
http://www.state51.co.uk/motion/



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "GEIR STORLI" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Molde-Knitting Factory
Date: 07 Sep 1998 13:46:11 +0

Hi There.

I went to a internet- relayed concert at the Molde International Jazz
Festival, with Molvaer, Terje Rypdal, DJ Soulswinger and Bill Laswell
on stage in Molde, but I never really got to hear who played at the
Knitting Factory. All I can remember know is that there were an
acoustic bass and a drum kit.

I know the chances are slim that anyone should know who these were,
but if anyone out there would know who these were could you please,
please send me the names.

Cheers.

Geir Inge Storli

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Craig Rath <[e-mail]>
Subject: Keiji Haino
Date: 07 Sep 1998 11:06:22 -0500

Speaking of Haino - someone a while back posted that Haino was going to be
playing at Tonic in NY in October.  Does anyone have any more specific
information about that yet?  Their web page only goes up through the 3rd or
4th or October.  I'm planning to make a trip out there soon and need to
know when the best time would be to coincide with his performances.




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tom Pratt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Keiji Haino
Date: 07 Sep 1998 12:47:38 -0400

> I've fallen completely in love with Haino's Fushitsusha recently, and an
> imminent business trip to Japan will put me in the position of being able to
> buy some more of the good man's releases. So here are my questions:

Get Fushitsusha's 'Double Live' (PSF 15/16) for sure. Of the solo stuff,
I love 'I Said, This Is The Son Of Nihilism' but that's regularly
available in the US. Anything on Tokuma or Mom N' Dad you should get as
they are Japanese labels that aren't too good at making it into the US
cheaply. PSF is actually quite easy to get at a good price here.

> 3) Is the 4CD box set "The Soul's True Love" still available?

Yep. At least at Forced Exposure it is.

You might as well pick up whatever Masayuki Takayanagi you can find too
(especially the non-PSF stuff)

                -Tom Pratt

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Keiji Haino
Date: 07 Sep 1998 23:42:49 -0400

Craig Rath wrote:

> Speaking of Haino - someone a while back posted that Haino was going to be
> playing at Tonic in NY in October.  Does anyone have any more specific
> information about that yet?

Last week of October, most probably Oct. 28-31 but I can't swear to it and
don't have the original post anymore.  (I can swear that the 30th is one of the
dates in question, so that's what I base the rest of this guess upon.)  And
I've also just learned that High Rise is playing during that same period at the
East Village club Brownies.  Next thing you know, someone will post that Ghost
is playing at the Cooler the same night... ;-)

By the way, Haino's four new Tokuma releases are reviewed in the new issue of
The Wire.

Steve Smith
[e-mail]


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: SUGAR in their vitamins? <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Keiji Haino
Date: 07 Sep 1998 21:01:34 -0700 (PDT)

On Mon, 7 Sep 1998, Steve Smith wrote:

> Last week of October, most probably Oct. 28-31 but I can't swear to it and

hadn't heard about Haino coming to the US.

> I've also just learned that High Rise is playing during that same period at the
> East Village club Brownies.

yes, October 31st.

hasta. --dk

Yes.  Beautiful, wonderful nature.  Hear it sing to us: *snap*  Yes.  natURE.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Cerato Marco <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn List Digest V2 #454
Date: 08 Sep 1998 10:37:01 +0200

Hi everybody!!
Does anybody have an opoinion about "News for Lulu" and "More news
for Lulu"?

Does anybody know if John Zorn comes in Italy soon?

Grettings from Italy!!!!

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "hijk" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re:  News For Lulu
Date: 08 Sep 1998 08:03:49 -0400

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

"News for Lulu" was the first context in which I'd seen Zorn (and =
Frisell) live.  I only wish that the trio would get together again for =
another gig or record.  The albums themselves opened the world of Blue =
Note to me throught the works of Sonny Clark, Hank Mobley, Kenny Dorham =
and Freddie Redd.  The alto/guitar/trombone instrumentation sounds fresh =
(to me) and it really lets you hear both the tunes and the players ideas =
more clearly.

Jeff Kent

If you love Sonny Clark check out The Sonny Clark Memorial Quartet - =
"Voodoo".


------=_NextPart_000_0017_01BDDAFF.363C9EA0
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>"News for Lulu" was the first context in =
which I'd=20
seen Zorn (and Frisell) live.  I only wish that the trio would get =
together=20
again for another gig or record.  The albums themselves opened the =
world of=20
Blue Note to me throught the works of Sonny Clark, Hank Mobley, Kenny =
Dorham and=20
Freddie Redd.  The alto/guitar/trombone instrumentation sounds =
fresh (to=20
me) and it really lets you hear both the tunes and the players ideas =
more=20
clearly.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Jeff Kent</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>If you love Sonny Clark check out The Sonny Clark =
Memorial=20
Quartet - "Voodoo".</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0017_01BDDAFF.363C9EA0--


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Matthew Ross Davis <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn List Digest V2 #454
Date: 08 Sep 1998 08:20:26 -0400 (EDT)

> Does anybody have an opoinion about "News for Lulu" and "More news
> for Lulu"?

They're both excellent discs of Zorn playing trad bebop tunes w/ George
Lewis and Bill Frisell. Highly recommended, but don't expect too much jump
cutting. These are examples of Zorn's "straightest" playing, outside of
Masada, and quite enjoyable.

| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | m - a - t - t - h - e - w | r - o - s - s | d - a - v - i - s | |
| | http://www.artswire.org/mrd | | | | | | | UMD school of music | |
| | m-e-t-a-t-r-o-n p-r-e-s-s | | | http://www.artswire.org/comma | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Anne & Dan Dellosso <[e-mail]>
Subject: news for lulu
Date: 08 Sep 1998 08:22:47 -0700

  news for lulu and more news for lulu are pretty much the same.  the
first is a studio date and the second is a live date with the exception
of one misha mengelberg song.  its a trio with great playing by all, no
rythm section, frisell holds it together pretty well though.  they play
tunes by  older jazz  players like dorham, mobley, redd and sonny
clark.  if you like it another project that is close is the sonny clark
memorial quartet put out on black saint records, it features zorn,
horvitz, previte and drummond playing sonny clark standards.

   dan


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: patRice <[e-mail]>
Subject: tricky.
Date: 08 Sep 1998 16:04:56 +0000

hi y'all...

don't know if anyone's insterested in the following information, but
i'll let you know anyhow...

besides marc ribot & greg cohen, you can also hear doug wieselman on
tricky's latest offering "angels..."

patRice

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Brent Burton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: twofer
Date: 08 Sep 1998 10:19:57 -0400 (EDT)

On Mon, 7 Sep 1998 [e-mail] wrote:

> now for the twofer. does anyone (patrice?) know of any "good" (you guys know
> what i mean) cd stores in wash. dc?

your best bet for *outside* music is probably vinyl ink in silver
spring.  they regularly pick up new stuff from forced exposure (for
example i just bought arthur doyle's "alabama feeling" there).  they're
open friday through sunday.

b

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #454
Date: 08 Sep 1998 12:13:31 -0300

>Does anybody have an opinion about "News for Lulu" and "More news for
>Lulu"

For me both are pretty great albums. Absolutely worth listening, with
amazing playing from Zorn, Lewis and Frisell (specially).
I've got great difficulty to buy "More News...", but when I finally got
it, I enjoyed it a lot.
As Matthew Davis said, "Highly recommended".

-Hugo (from Argentina)

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Edward Lutiy" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Paul Simon
Date: 08 Sep 1998 20:08:43 +0400

    Hi!

    I saw Paul Simon's photo in a record shop yesterday. Maybe he's a jew too?
Shall I wait for "Great Jewish Music: Paul Simon" CD ???

    Ed.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Edward Lutiy" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: News & More News For Lulu
Date: 08 Sep 1998 20:01:26 +0400

    Hello!

Dan Dellosso wrote:

>news for lulu and more news for lulu are pretty much the same.

In my opinion they are not the same. "More News" has more free
interpretations of the tunes, it's not so "straight", the pieces are
longer. The tunes are almost the same but they sound different.

>the first is a studio date and the second is a live date with the
exception
>of one misha mengelberg song.

And one John Patton composition.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Artur Nowak" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Paul Simon
Date: 08 Sep 1998 20:58:38 +0200

>     I saw Paul Simon's photo in a record shop yesterday.
> Maybe he's a jew too?

Yeah, you can always recognize a Jew by the nose. BTW: what was the name
of the guy in a black shirt, who said something like that more than 50
years back?

Or: did you saw a photo of naked Simon?

     __________________________________________________________________
     Artur Rosenzweig [[e-mail]]
     www.silesia.top.pl/~arno/default.htm - Discography of Bill Frisell
/ update soon...



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joshua A Miller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Eugene In Ventura
Date: 08 Sep 1998 12:53:52 -0700 (PDT)

On Fri, 4 Sep 1998, Keith McMullen wrote:
> Music for Prepared Toaster, Shoe, Screwdriver, and Large Coffee Percolator
> transcended the genre.
>
> Stunning.
>
> s~Z
>
>
>
    having been there as well(much thanks for posting it here,keith,
otherwise i never would have known about it), i must say that i agree
100%. for anyone in san fransisco who can't wait until the zorn dates,
chadbourne will be playing a few nights this week, including an in-store
appearance at amoeba (the one on haight) on thursday night, backed by a
country-western band(!) called the earnest tubb memorial band, or
something like that.  i'm actually going to be up there for that show, but
i was almost at the point of tears when i found out the first zorn show is
the day after i have to leave.  sigh.
josh


-------------------
 Joshua A Miller
[e-mail]


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Keith McMullen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Eugene In Ventura
Date: 08 Sep 1998 12:49:09 -0700

<<i was almost at the point of tears when i found out the first zorn show is
the day after i have to leave.  sigh.
josh>>

He frequently sneaks through Santa Barbara unannounced. Keep your eyes
peeled. Of course you'll probably be in SF when he's in SB. I saw Masada in
SB several years back with no mention of it in the usual places.

s~Z
-




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Joseph S. Zitt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: New Zorn Releases?
Date: 08 Sep 1998 15:28:49 -0500 (CDT)

Are Aporias, The Bribe, and/or Ganryu Island due out today, or are they
later in the month? I couldn't get a clear answer from where I looked on
the Tzadik site.

- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Paul Simon
Date: 08 Sep 1998 16:49:41 EDT


<<
 >     I saw Paul Simon's photo in a record shop yesterday.
 > Maybe he's a jew too?

 Yeah, you can always recognize a Jew by the nose. BTW: what was the name
 of the guy in a black shirt, who said something like that more than 50
 years back?

 Or: did you saw a photo of naked Simon?
  >>

Hhhhhmmmmmm...........

Do we REALLY need to humor this kind of attitude, AT ALL, on this platform? I
certainly don't.

Dale.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: san fran shows
Date: 08 Sep 1998 17:11:24 EDT

>>Just thought you folks would be interested: the concert dates are at Slim's
>>in San Francisco on Sept. 15 and 16; the first concert is billed as "An
>>Evening with John Zorn, Mike Patton and Dave Lombardo."

>>The one on the 16th is "John Zorn's Xu-Feng with Trey Spruance, John Schott,
>>Chris Brown, Dave Slusser, Dave Lombardo and William Winant / Mike Patton's
>>Feedback Etudes and Phono Sanjo."

is anyone planning on going to either of these shows? please email me
privately. thanks a lot

jason
[e-mail]

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Mike Chamberlain)
Subject: Re: Paul Simon
Date: 08 Sep 1998 23:36:57 GMT

Artur Nowak,[e-mail],Internet writes:
>>     I saw Paul Simon's photo in a record shop yesterday.
>> Maybe he's a jew too?
>
>Yeah, you can always recognize a Jew by the nose. BTW: what was the name
>of the guy in a black shirt, who said something like that more than 50
>years back?

Arthur, I think you're going just a bit overboard here.  So Paul Simon looks
Jewish to someone because of his nose or whatever.  It's hardly the same as
saying that the only good Jew is a dead one, and then acting on that thought.

>Or: did you saw a photo of naked Simon?

Well, you can't tell that way either.  From the waist down, even I look
Jewish (and I also have a rather large schnozz).  Two out of two isn't good
enough. :-)

--Mike


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Silent Watcher" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: New Zorn Releases?
Date: 08 Sep 1998 20:02:36 PDT


>Are Aporias, The Bribe, and/or Ganryu Island due out today, or are
>they later in the month? I couldn't get a clear answer from where I
>looked on the Tzadik site.

Our computer at work has the next batch of Tzadik albums listed for next
Tuesday, the 15th - assuming they haven't been pushed back.

Peace,
DB
Bill Laswell and Lori Carson Discographies at :
http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Underground/7093

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: David Newgarden <[e-mail]>
Subject: Haino
Date: 09 Sep 1998 01:01:57 -0400 (EDT)


Craig Rath wrote:
>Speaking of Haino - someone a while back posted that Haino was going to
>be playing at Tonic in NY in October.  Does anyone have any more specific
>information about that yet?

Haino will be at Tonic (nyc) Oct 29-31, tentatively one night solo, one
night with Fushitsusha, one night with 'friends' (I'm not sure which night
is which). Amazingly, High Rise are also playing NYC on Halloween...
Here's the October Tonic schedule, curated by Ted Reichman. Upcoming
curators are rumored to be Elliott Sharp (November), Vernon Reid
(December), Arto Lindsay (January).

10/1-3 John Zorn's Bar Kokhba
10/7 Gianni Gebbia (w/Lukas Ligeti)
10/8 Roy Campbell's Other Dimensions in Music meets the Gold Sparkle Band
10/9 Karen Mantler and Michael Evans (featuring Kato Hideki & Eric Mingus)
10/10 Judy Silvano (w/Gerry Hemingway & John McKenna)
10/14 Dave Tronzo Solo
10/15 Eugene Chadbourne & Tony Trischka
10/16 Josh Roseman
10/17 Peter Apfelbaum
10/21 Tom Varner's American Song Project
10/22 Vincent Chancey Trio
10/23 Elliott Sharp's Terraplane (Acoustic/Electric)
10/24 Gerry Hemingway
10/28 Marty Ehrlich Group (w/Baikida Carroll, Mike Formanek, & Billy
Drummond)
10/29-31 Haino Keiji

@ Tonic Hair Salon & Cafe, 107 Norfolk St. (near Delancey), NYC


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Sibree/Wilkes)
Subject: LP Auction (closes Sept 14)
Date: 09 Sep 1998 14:48:35 +0800

A reminder that my latest list of mostly free jazz/avant garde lps is
available on rec.music.marketplace.vinyl, or email me for details.  The
auction closes on September 14.

Billy



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Julian" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Material
Date: 09 Sep 1998 18:17:29 +1000

Can someone tell me what Material sounds like in general? Also recommend
albums to buy/avoid/start on?


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Caleb Deupree <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Material
Date: 09 Sep 1998 09:58:44 -0400

>>>>> "Julian" == Julian  <[e-mail]> writes:

    Julian> Can someone tell me what Material sounds like in general?
    Julian> Also recommend albums to buy/avoid/start on?

A quick rundown of their albums from memory.  Material participated on
a number of other projects for other people, notably Herbie Hancock's
dance album Rockit.  If you're looking for early downtown work, skip
Material and dig up the Massacre release with Laswell, Fred Maher on
drums, and Fred Frith on guitar.  It wears much better than any of the
early Material albums, IMHO.

From the late 1970s and early 1980s:

Temporary Music -- Laswell & Michael Beinhorn on percussion plus
guests doing early downtown experiments, some with disco-type beats,
some more free.  Sounds pretty dated.  Originally released on a series
of 12" before CD compilations.

Memory Serves -- more experimental, lots more guests.  Best bet for
the early work.

One Down -- the pop album.  Whitney Houston and Archie Shepp
participating in a rendition of Memories.  Lots of disco and dance
music, sounds pretty dated.

Live at Soundscape -- an entire concert, completely improvised.
Sounds like no other Material album.  Last album with Beinhorn.

There is a long hiatus before more Material releases.  These are all
from the late 1980s and 1990s:

Third Power -- more dub and reggae, the only Material album on which
Laswell does not play bass.  Originally intended as a Sly & Robbie
album.  I still listen to this one a lot.

Seven Souls -- William Burroughs and more African/Arabic influence.
There's a remix album from this source as well.

Hallucination Engine -- more funky than Seven Souls, but Nicky
Skopelitis brings a lot of Middle Eastern influence to bear.  This
sounds to me a lot like Skopelitis' solo album Ekstasis, if that's a
reference point for you.  Samples from this album show up on the Axiom
Dub and Ambient compilations.

I listen to Third Power the most of these.  For more complete track
and personnel listings, check out the Laswell discography at the Axiom
web site, http://www.hyperreal.org/music/labels/axiom/.  The players
on most of the albums will give a pretty good idea of what the album
sounds like.

---
Caleb T. Deupree
;; Opinions...  funny thing about opinions, they can change.

Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers.
(Pablo Picasso)


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:    William York <[e-mail]>
Subject: Tzadik Radio Hour/Tzadik CDs
Date: 09 Sep 1998 10:29:02 -0400 (EDT)

I have been lucky enough to get a (free) copy of the Tzadik Radio Hour
promo CD, which has Zorn introducing and playing songs from about 20
different Tzadik CDs.  (T-ZA-dick, he gets the T in there, like it says in
the FAQ: "as in glitzy", but unlike the FAQ says, it is "dick" and not
"deek" as he says it).

Anyhow, he has lots of complimentary things to say about the musicians,
like (these are paraphrases):

Ikue Mori's _Garden_ is to him one of the great electronic works of the
90s, comparable to Xenakis in the 60s (I haven't heard either yet).

Kletka Red (pronounced "Klekta" -??-) and Naftule's Dream were demo's that
were sent to him despite what the label says about no demos (it's probably
harder now to get one through I bet).

Eyvand Kang is "one of thje most exciting musicians on the Downtown Scene
today".

Steve Beresford is one of the most important composers and singers (??) in
Britain.

And so on, but he used "to me" or "in my opinion" which keeps him from
sounding like some pompous kknow all critic.  He also gave some in depth
descriptions of the Rodd Keith and Ken Butler CDs, and talked about
Fujieda's Patterns of Plants CD as well.

I'm listing all this so that no one will feel compelled to pay $50 to some
sleazeball who wants to sell them this.  If anyone desperately wants a
copy let me know.

I was surprised (in a good way) by a few of the things on there,
including:

Nana Vascocelos (from _Fragments_) + Gisburg (from _Shadows in the Sea_).

Can anyone vouch for these as a whole.  I'm looking into getting some more
Tzadik CDs put am looking for those on the 'more often listened to' end,
rather than 'interesting but rarely listened to'.  Also, if anyone has
heard Luc Ferrari's CD, how is that?

As for News For Lulu/Sonny Clark, I love the Sonny Clark Mem'l Band record
(just found the used LP), I think its my favorite of Zorn's straighter
alto playing.  More News for Lulu I like but I wish Frisell was louder,
and that CD is definately a lot freer.  Zorn does a lot more of the
screams on that one, which for some reason I love on Torture Garden and
Spy vs. Spy but could do with less of on the Lulu CD.  Just an opinion..

WY




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Keith McMullen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Tzadik Radio Hour/Tzadik CDs
Date: 09 Sep 1998 07:15:08 -0700

Lord knows Zorn doesn't want to come off sounding pompous.



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Artur Nowak" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Paul Simon
Date: 09 Sep 1998 19:18:14 +0200

> Arthur, I think you're going just a bit overboard here.

Right, sorry, apologize.

In my country you can read ridiculous articles in some newspappers about
people who have to be Jews because they look like a Jew, and they
pretend they are not. Therefore I found the judgement of Paul Simon
stupid. "He looks like a Jew" - so what? I think that the original
message shows interresting attitude: "Zorn is a Jew, also Bacharach
(never heard of him till I found the Tzadik release...), so maybe Simon
is not so bad too!"

I was born in a city on the south of Poland, where used to live dozens
of thousands of Jews before world war 2. It happend many times that some
people thought I'm a Jew because my first name is Artur, I was born
there, I listen to klezmer music and I... look like a Jew! After people
realized that, they looked at me different than before. So I find the
"looks-like-somebody" judgement stupid. I wanted to show the next step
on this way, which can be insulting. Therefore I apologize again.

Regards

Masada Rulez!   :-)

     __________________________________________________________________
     Artur Nowak [[e-mail]]
     www.silesia.top.pl/~arno/default.htm - Discography of Bill Frisell




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Edward Lutiy" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Paul Simon. Sorry about that.
Date: 09 Sep 1998 21:57:59 +0400

    Hi!

    I'm terribly sorry if my question was incorrect, but Artur Nowak cutted
half of it. I admire Simon & Garfunkel's songs very much. I was only
wondering about the possibility to hear Zorn & Co.'s interpretations of
their tunes in the future. (I saw that photo and thought "Paul Simon is a
great composer. Maybe one day Mr. Zorn...". By the way in the shop I was
looking for 3 new Zorn CDs on Tzadik).
    (And I think "the guy in a black shirt" has no relationship with list's
topic.)

>Do we REALLY need to humor this kind of attitude, AT ALL, on this
platform?

What kind of attitude? John Zorn produces compilations on Tzadik on "this
platform".

    Ed.

P.S. Excuse me for my stupid question. I'm awfully sorry.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Risser Family <[e-mail]>
Subject: Bolan
Date: 09 Sep 1998 23:43:38 -0400

Actually, i think Paul Simon would be a great choice, as long as they =
stayed away from that Capeman garbage.

In any case, has anyone heard the Bolan CD?

It's not nearly as good as the Gainsbourg CD.  In fact, I found it =
fairly disappointing.  Bolan basically wrote and re-wrote two songs, but =
every variation rocked rocked rocked.  This disc suffers decidely from =
post-rock syndrome and does not rock.  It sorta trapses around.  I don't =
know.  I wasn't impressed, but I'm still listening.

Some rare grooves, for example, Arto Lindsay and the ever awesome =
Elysian Fields.

But thass about it.

Also, I have never heard the Bacharach, so i can't compare.

Anyone else have an opinion?

Peter

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re:  Re: Material
Date: 10 Sep 1998 01:11:25 EDT

here's another good laswell discography (not mine. lord knows i wish i had
that kind of time)

http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Underground/7093

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Tosh)
Subject: Re: Bolan
Date: 09 Sep 1998 23:41:13 -0700 (PDT)

The Bolan collection should rock!  If it doesn't rock,then what is it?  I
love the Gainsbourg cd, and was very much intrigued with the 'idea' of the
Bolan cd.  Do the artists play around with the arrangements - or is it
pretty much straight forward.

Also the same question for the Bacharach collection.

-----------------
Tosh Berman
TamTam Books
----------------



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Stefan Verstraeten <[e-mail]>
Subject: How can I get these Douglas cd's
Date: 10 Sep 1998 08:46:12 +0200

Dear Zornies,

Perhaps somenone on the zornlist can help me out finding out the
following problem. Currently, I am looking for these two cd's.
> >-bill laswell: jazzonia
> >-nicky skopelitis: revelator
> >all these two cd's are on the douglas label

So I started looking, but the answer I got from Downtown Music Gallery
(and a lot of other retailers) was:
> Sorry, but due to the troubled relationship that we and the > distributors that have worked with the Douglas
> label have had, we are no longer dealing with Douglas product.
> best wishes, Downtown Music Gallery

So my question is: Does anyone know where I can get those cd's (email or
website address for a ditributor). Or does someone has a contact address
for the label itself???
(Allmighty Patrice and Jeff Spirer, can you help ??????????)

Greetings from Belgium to everybody,
Stefan

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Stephane Vuilleumier" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Tzadik "jewish" collections (was Re: Bolan)
Date: 10 Sep 1998 09:15:14 +0200

I haven't heard the Bolan collection yet (but I'm glad
Arto is apparently consistently in the top few!)

-----Original Messages-----

:The Bolan collection should rock!  If it doesn't rock,then what is it?


:In any case, has anyone heard the Bolan CD?
:
:It's not nearly as good as the Gainsbourg CD.  In fact, I found it fairly
disappointing.  Bolan basically wrote and re-wrote two songs, but every
variation rocked rocked rocked.  This disc suffers decidely from post-rock
syndrome and does not rock.  It sorta trapses around.  I don't know.  I wasn't
impressed, but I'm still listening.
:
:Some rare grooves, for example, Arto Lindsay and the ever awesome Elysian
Fields.

The problem I had with the Gainsbourg collection was that it
DID NOT rock either! Almost totally uninspired. Diction and
arrangements are obviously important in the originals, but
one main asset of Gainsbourg songs always was that
he was able to use french words poetically in a rock format -
THAT rocked. Gainsbourg was really the first
to give french rock/pop songs this nursery rhyme quality
english songs can/should/often have. E.g. check how french reggae should sound
on Aux Armes etc., 1978; (lots of french speaking peoples' introduction to
reggae - mine anyway).

Stephane

PS don't hit me for the quotation marks in the
   subject line, please...





-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: tricky.
Date: 10 Sep 1998 00:26:25 -0700


On Tue, 08 Sep 1998 16:04:56 +0000  patRice wrote:
>
> besides marc ribot & greg cohen, you can also hear doug wieselman on
> tricky's latest offering "angels..."

Nice to hear that somebody else noticed Doug's presence.

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Spirer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: How can I get these Douglas cd's
Date: 10 Sep 1998 06:24:55 -0700

At 08:46 AM 9/10/98 +0200, Stefan Verstraeten wrote:
>Dear Zornies,
>
>Perhaps somenone on the zornlist can help me out finding out the
>following problem. Currently, I am looking for these two cd's.
>> >-bill laswell: jazzonia
>> >-nicky skopelitis: revelator
>> >all these two cd's are on the douglas label

Jazzonia should be hitting US stores right now.  Places like CDNow may have
it, and Playing by Ear ([e-mail]) should be getting it.

No-one seems to know where the Revelator inventory is.  Too bad, it's a
great CD.

Douglas went under.  Jazzonia (and a Praxis compilation) were already
pressed and are being distributed by someone else.


Jeff Spirer
B&W Photos: http://www.pomegranates.com/frame/spirer/
Color and B&W Photos: http://www.hyperreal.org/~jeffs/gallery.html
Axiom/Material: http://www.hyperreal.org/axiom/

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rich Williams <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Last Exit videos
Date: 10 Sep 1998 11:01:20 -0500

Bruno Bissonnette wrote:
>
> Hi all Zornophiles,
>
> Here's something I'm quite curious about: is there any live video
> footage of Last Exit out there?  I figure there's probably no official
> release (maybe an obscure European TV broadcast?), but how about
> bootlegs, crowd shot videos by fans, of any sort?

Bruno,

    There is a fair amount of live Exit video out there, However, finding
it is another matter. A good place to start would be the people who run
the Tampere Jazz Fest in Finland. Ive seen a really well produced promo
of Exit playing there that seemed like it was done for Finnish TV in
conjunction with the festival. There also exists a tape of the bands
appearance at the North Sea(JVC) jazz fest on 7/10/87 (this is the
concert that yielded the tune "Line of Fire" from the Cassette
Recordings album). However this tape is one of those fixed camera at the
soundboard type tapes. Ive also heard that their performance at
Victoriaville was taped.
    Perhaps one of the European zorn-listers might have an easier time
tracking this stuff down. My efforts at doing so have always run into
the language barrier.

Hope this helps

Rich

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tom Pratt <[e-mail]>
Subject: new bailey
Date: 10 Sep 1998 12:43:18 -0400

Has anyone heard this apparently recent Ractangle release and have any
thoughts they'd like to share about it?

Derek Bailey/Pat Thomas/Steve Noble - And
(guitar/sampler/turntables)

looks intriguing...

                -Tom Pratt

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: live radio 2?
Date: 10 Sep 1998 14:32:28 EDT

i've been hearing rumors of a 2disc live naked city album which is going to be
all their covers. has anyone else heard this? and if so, when is it due?

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: mark feldman and sylvie courvoisier in chicago
Date: 10 Sep 1998 18:25:50 EDT

violinist  Mark Feldman   and pianist  Sylvie  Corvoisier
will  play  a  concert in chicago at
The Empty Bottle  1035 N.Western Av   (Division+Augusta)
Wed  Sept 23  at   9:30
Thanks

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: SUGAR in their vitamins? <[e-mail]>
Subject: High Rise tour info
Date: 10 Sep 1998 16:36:42 -0700 (PDT)

hey now,

this may be slightly off topic, but
i thought it may be of interest...

hasta.

Yes.  Beautiful, wonderful nature.  Hear it sing to us: *snap*  Yes.  natURE.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
A couple of people asked me about the full High Rise tour including
the dates in Europe. I asked Nanjo about it, and after the usual
lengthy delay, got a reply, so here's the news. It's actually a
combination High Rise/Ohkami no Jikan tour, since Narita (High Rise
guitarist) can't go away for very long.

Oct 28 - San Francisco - High Rise, Bottom of the Hill
Oct 29 - KFJC radio - High Rise live
Oct 29 - San Jose - High Rise, Works Gallery (still being arranged)
Oct 30 - WNUR radio - High Rise live
Oct 30 - Chicago - High Rise, Empty Bottle
Oct 31 - New York - High Rise, Mercury Theater
Nov  1 - Philadelphia - High Rise, Astrocade
Nov  3 - Paris - High Rise, Instant Chavires
Nov  4 - London - High Rise, TBA
Nov  5 - Manchester - High Rise, TBA
Nov  6 - Bristol or Birmingham - High Rise, TBA
Nov  7 - London - High Rise, TBA
Nov  8 - Glasgow - Ohkami no Jikan (w/Richard Youngs), TBA
Nov  9 - Manchester or Newcastle - Ohkami no Jikan, TBA
Nov 10 - London - Ohkami no Jikan, TBA
Nov 12 - Paris - Ohkami no Jikan, TBA
Nov 15 - San Francisco - Ohkami no Jikan, TBA

Lots of TBA stuff in Europe, of course, but I'll try to fill in
the details if I can get them from Nanjo in a few weeks.


=============================================================
  Mason Jones               Charnel Music, Automatism Press
  [e-mail]         P.O. Box 170277
                            San Francisco, CA 94117-0277
  Phone & Fax [phone]  www.charnel.com
=============================================================




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Tzadik CDs: Vasconcelos, Luc Ferrari
Date: 10 Sep 1998 19:33:20 -0500 (CDT)

> I'm listing all this so that no one will feel compelled to pay $50 to some
> sleazeball who wants to sell them this.  If anyone desperately wants a
> copy let me know.
>
> I was surprised (in a good way) by a few of the things on there,
> including:
>
> Nana Vascocelos (from _Fragments_) + Gisburg (from _Shadows in the Sea_).
>
> Can anyone vouch for these as a whole.  I'm looking into getting some more
> Tzadik CDs put am looking for those on the 'more often listened to' end,
> rather than 'interesting but rarely listened to'.  Also, if anyone has
> heard Luc Ferrari's CD, how is that?

I've been lurking a while, sort of intimidated by the astonishingly wide
range of knowledge represented by the people on this list. But I can put
in a good word for both the Vasconcelos "Fragments" and the Luc Ferrari
"Cellule 75".

I'm particularly into these two because they were two of the last CDs I
bought (this summer) before returning to grad school and lots of DEBT. So
they have a sort of nostalgic quality for me: the good old days when I
could actually buy music....

Anyway, Vasconcelos' CD is a collection of eerie, atmospheric soundscapes,
lots of wordless vocals and subtle effects (with a pop tune in the middle
for contrast). It works really well as a cohesive whole even though the
pieces were composed for several different films.  Anyone know the films?

Ferrari's "Cellule 75" I really love, but I don't know a lot about
electronic music and musique concrete, so maybe you'll need to get a more
informed opinion.  The second piece is really nice: I'm really interested
in the way the piece is both ambitious and unassuming. In the liner notes
Ferrari says something about how he composed it using the most primitive
means available.

These two are Tzadik releases that I actually play a lot (also Bun Ching
Lam-- the vocal pieces that close her "Child God" CD absolutely move me to
tears every time. No joke.)

Hope this was helpful, at least as an expression of enthusiasm,
Andy Miller


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Brad Syna <[e-mail]>
Subject: Marc Ribot y Los Cubanos Postinos
Date: 10 Sep 1998 23:20:59 -0400

Marc Ribot y Los Cubanos Postinos will be playing the Variety Playhouse in
Atlanta, GA, Friday September 12 at 8:30 pm. Local favorites Smoke open. If
you need more info Variety is on the web at
www.variety-playhouse.com
Thought you'd want to know,
Brad


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Tzadik CDs: Vasconcelos, Luc Ferrari
Date: 11 Sep 1998 01:58:39 -0400

[e-mail] wrote:

> I've been lurking a while, sort of intimidated by the astonishingly wide
> range of knowledge represented by the people on this list. But I can put
> in a good word for both the Vasconcelos "Fragments" and the Luc Ferrari
> "Cellule 75".

If you can deal with both Nana Vasconcelos and Luc Ferrari, then you have no
reason to hide 'round here, Andy.  Welcome to the outside world, and have a good
time.  And by all means, speak up!

Steve Smith
[e-mail]
NP - Shiurba/Rosenberg/Robair - Bubble and Squeak - "Toothache"
(about which see http://www.sfo.com/~shiurba/sedition.html )


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Therese Clemetsen <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Molde-Knitting Factory
Date: 11 Sep 1998 13:34:44

At 13:46 07.09.98 +0, you wrote:
>Hi There.
>
>I went to a internet- relayed concert at the Molde International Jazz=20
>Festival, with Molvaer, Terje Rypdal, DJ Soulswinger and Bill Laswell=20
>on stage in Molde, but I never really got to hear who played at the=20
>Knitting Factory. All I can remember know is that there were an=20
>acoustic bass and a drum kit.=20

=20

>please send me the names.


I was there too! And here=B4s the names:
Hill Greene -bass
Dary Altshul- drums

Bill Laswell told me that their names is not to be remembered (?)
and he was very negativ to Knitting Factory....

Can anybody tell me about the Knitting Factory- situation?


Greeetings from Norway

Therese








-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Molde-Knitting Factory
Date: 11 Sep 1998 12:01:57 -0400 (EDT)


I *wasn't* there, but I figure you mean "Barry" Altshul on drums -- he=20
played with Braxton, Bley et.al=20

Ken Waxman
[e-mail]



On Fri, 11 Sep 1998, Therese Clemetsen wrote:
> =20
>=20
> >please send me the names.
>=20
>=20
> I was there too! And here=B4s the names:
> Hill Greene -bass
> Dary Altshul- drums
>=20
> Bill Laswell told me that their names is not to be remembered (?)
> and he was very negativ to Knitting Factory....
>=20
> Can anybody tell me about the Knitting Factory- situation?
>=20
>=20
> Greeetings from Norway
>=20
> Therese
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> -
>=20
>=20

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Gretz <[e-mail]>
Subject: The Guy In The Black Shirt
Date: 11 Sep 1998 13:02:37 -0400 (EDT)

who's the "guy in the black shirt"?

Lou Reed?



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: was LAST EXIT. now VICTO TAPE.
Date: 11 Sep 1998 12:48:40 -0500

>> Ive also heard that their performance at
>>Victoriaville was taped.

was victoriaville 98' video taped?
thanks
jt


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: some suggestions please....
Date: 11 Sep 1998 12:54:08 -0500

i'm looking to buy some mingus and christian marclay. can anyone shoot out
some suggestons? they would be greatly appreciated. i'm looking for some of
mingus'
more "free" stuff. his more complicated and/or "out there" stuff (for lack of
a better word).

i'm also interested in hearing some turntable/djtype stuff. not club music.
musicians who push the boundaries of this instrument. any suggestions? thanks


jt


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Scott Handley" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: some suggestions please....
Date: 11 Sep 1998 13:31:03 PDT

 i'm looking for some of
>mingus'
>more "free" stuff. his more complicated and/or "out there" stuff

*********

In terms of the outer Mingus, one of my all-time favorites is the
incendiary LIVE AT TOWN HALL (or is it TOWN HALL CONCERT?) on Prestige
(perhaps misnamed---the small ensemble recording from Europe w/ Dolphy,
Curson, et al...not be confused w/ the large ensemble recording THE
COMPLETE TOWN HALL CONCERT on BlueNote, which is a beautiful botch, and
definitely otherworldly at times....other good but more straight ahead
large ensemble recordings include CUMBIA AND JAZZ FUSION, and LET MY
CHILDREN HEAR MUSIC), the one with "Meditations on a Pair of Wire
Cutters".  For the "prayer meeting" Mingus of
African-American-Protestantism -meets-the-Master-Musicians-of-Jajouka, I
love the lengthy LIVE AT ANTIBES 1960, or the new authorized double
bootleg REVENGE (notwithstanding the packaging).  All three of the above
involve a lot of blowing, but the studio masterpiece has got to be THE
BLACK SAINT AND THE SINNER LADY, which everyone likes.  It ends up being
a ULYSSES-like collage because a.) Ming composed it that way, and b.)
there is a hell of lot of studio dice-ing involved.  It's his ELECTRIC
LADYLAND.  It's wonderful and Charlie Mariano's (?) alto playing is
really intense.

On second thought, there are two or three volumes of LIVE IN EUROPE on
Enja, I think, and you need them bad.  I remember thinking they kicked
as much ass as TOWN HALL CONCERT.

Finally, if you haven't heard the Hal Willner-produced WEIRD NIGHTMARE:
MEDITATIONS ON MINGUS album, it's wonderful: Bill Frisell, Vernon Reid,
Robbie Robertson, Greg Cohen, Bobby Previte, and a cast of thousands.  I
think it's out-of-print, but you might be able to snag a copy. I think
it really captures the spirit of Charles Mingus' music, the way he could
render ethereal the mundane or the concrete, or give shape and material
texture to emotions.  The man's ability to transform things into
critical masses of nuance and exception, that's what blows me away.  A
sense of "strangeness", and danger---and it's everywhere.

P.S. If you haven't checked out Charles Mingus' "autobiography" BENEATH
THE UNDERDOG, you might want to.  Reads like very strange piece of
fiction.


--s


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dan Hewins <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: some suggestions please....
Date: 11 Sep 1998 16:28:41 -0500

The 1964 European tour happens to be well documented and there are a large
number of CDs, bootleg or official, that exist.  Everything I have heard is
well worth having.  I particularly like a disc called "Parkeriana" on Jazz
Roots.

The Town Hall Concert is excellent as is Live in Europe, vol. 1.  There are
two volumas, as far as I know.

Dan

>On second thought, there are two or three volumes of LIVE IN EUROPE on
>Enja, I think, and you need them bad.  I remember thinking they kicked
>as much ass as TOWN HALL CONCERT.



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tom Pratt <[e-mail]>
Subject: CD Sale
Date: 11 Sep 1998 19:50:14 -0400

I'm selling the following CD's for $10 each except for the Parliament
double-disc which I'll sell for $15 (I'll cover the shipping). I could
just take these to a used CD store in town but I thought I'd give you
all a chance at them. First come, first serve... Thanks.

Gregg Bendian's Interzone (Eremite) w/Dresser + Cline Bros.
Han Bennink + Dave Douglas - Serpentine (Songlines)
William Hooker - Shamballa: Duos w/ T. Moore & E# (Knitting Factory)
AMM III - It Had Been An Ordinary Enough Day In Pueblo, CO (JAPO/ECM)
Dave Douglas - Parallel Worlds (Soul Note) w/string group
Dave Douglas - Five (Soul Note) w/string group
Dave Douglas - In Our Lifetime (New World/Countercurrents)
Henry Kaiser - Lemon Fish Tweezer (Cuneiform) solo improvisations
Mark Dresser - Banquet (Tzadik)
Ned Rothenberg Double Band - Real & Imagined Time (Moers)
Nels Cline Trio - Chest (Little Brother)
Apocalyptica Plays Metallica By Four Cellos (Mercury)
Wayne Horvitz & Zony Mash - Cold Spell (Knitting Factory)
Get Shorty: Original Motion Picture Soundtrack (Antilles)
John Zorn - Filmworks II (Tzadik)
John Zorn/Naked City - Heretic (Avant)
John Zorn (feat. Marc Ribot) - Book Of Heads (Tzadik)
John Zorn - Filmworks III (Tzadik)
John Zorn - The Big Gundown (Nonesuch/Icon)
Parliament - Tear The Roof Off: 1974-1980 (Casablanca) 2-CD set
Parliament - Live: P-Funk Earth Tour (Casablanca)

                -Tom Pratt

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: David Beardsley <[e-mail]>
Subject: DLB at Columbia U.
Date: 11 Sep 1998 22:06:18 -0400

Pauline Oliveros Foundation Presents

D E E P L I S T E N I N G B A N D

DECADE: TEN YEARS OF SONIC EXPLORATION

SUSPENDED MUSIC, A Collaborative Project
Of The Deep Listening Band And
Long String Instrument Band, To Feature
100 FOOT-LONG STRING INSTRUMENT

Premiere Works By PAULINE OLIVEROS, ELLEN FULLMAN, and PAUL D. MILLER

Produced by Lauren Amazeen


LOW LIBRARY ROTUNDA, COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY
SEPTEMBER 24 - 26 - 8:00 P.M.
¡ FREE ¡

The Deep Listening Band (DLB) ¡ Pauline Oliveros,
Stuart Dempster, David Gamper ¡ have created and
performed some of the most original sonic
explorations of the past ten tears in site-specific
acoustic environments from a cavernous cistern in
Washington state to a lava cave in the Canary
Islands. This September, DLB kicks off a season-long
Decade celebration. Set in the vaulted marble arena
of the McKim, Mead & White-designed Low Library at
Columbia University, Suspended Music will feature
the Long String Instrument (LSI) ¡ a one-of-a-kind
musical instrument with strings nearly 100 feet
long stretching across the public space of the site.
Suspended Music will feature the New York premiere of
Epigraphs in the Time of AIDS, by Pauline Oliveros,
and TexasTravelTexture by Ellen Fullman, creator of
LSI. These works are featured on the new recording
Suspended Music, recently released by Periplum.
The DLB performance will also feature the newest
incarnation of the Expanded Instrument System (EIS),
a unique, computer-driven musical machine that
is a part of the ongoing sonic evolutions of the
Pauline Oliveros Foundation. Following each of the
three formal concert presentations, Paul D. Miller
will create a special, informal sound environment,
reimagining DLB compositions in a new work: Speak
Spoke Spoken/Break Broke Broken: Depth Charge on
the Deep Listening Zone - Deep Listening Band Decade
Remix. Paul D. Miller's performance will include a
special duet with Pauline Oliveros, and an
informal lounge will be open in an adjoining space.
Suspended Music will take place September 24 - 26
at 8pm in the Low Library Rotunda, Columbia University,
Broadway at 116th Street. Admission is free. Further
information can be obtained by calling [phone].

The Expanded Instrument System (EIS) is an evolving
electronic sound processing environment dedicated to
providing improvising musicians control over various
parameters of electronic transformation of their
acoustic performances. Performers each have their own
setup which includes their delay and ambiance
processors, microphones, signal routing and
mixing, and a computer which translates and displays
control information from foot pedals and switches.
In addition, they have access to shared processing
resources, such as a special digital signal processing
computer. The musicians and their instruments are the
sources of all the sounds, which they pick up by their
microphones and subject to several kinds of pitch,
time and spatial ambiance transformations and manipulations.
No electronic sounds sources are used, only acoustic
instruments and voices. Software for the EIS was developed
by David Gamper with additional software by Panaiotis
of PanDigital Corporation and by Rick Stone.

The Long String Instrument, a part of the EIS project,
was created by composer Ellen Fullman. Architect Gabriella
Gutierrez is collaborating on the EIS installation
at Low Library.LSI is a hundred foot-long original
instrument. The performers walk among groups of strings,
bowing them with rosined fingers. The instrument produces
a unique almost orchestral sound, based on the natural
overtones of the strings. The physical scale of the
instrument and the way the overtones interact with
the space turn the site into a giant musical instrument.
The LSI Band is made up of Ellen Fullman, Amy Denio,
and Matthew Sperry.

DLB (Pauline Oliveros-accordion, Stuart Dempster-trombone,
David Gamper-winds and electronics) was formed in 1988,
while recording its award winning Deep Listening CD for
New Albion Records in a two million gallon cistern with
a reverberation time of 45 seconds. DLB has continued to
explore unusual acoustic spaces such as caverns, quarries
and nuclear cooling towers. Several DLB Decade
performances are planned for the 1998-99 season in
New York.

Original document @ http://www.artswire.org/pof/DLBlowPR.html

--
* D a v i d        B e a r d s l e y
*           [e-mail]
*
* J u x t a p o s i t i o n     E z i n e
* M E L A  v i r t u a l  d r e a m house monitor
*
* http://www.virtulink.com/immp/lookhere.htm



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Artur Nowak" <[e-mail]>
Subject: FW: [fred] somewhat
Date: 12 Sep 1998 20:49:31 +0200

FYI:

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Fred Frith [mailto:[e-mail]]
> Sent: Saturday, September 12, 1998 10:32 AM
> To: fred
> Subject: [fred] somewhat
>
> good day,
> just back from a three month road trip, and I can shed some light on a
> couple of topics:
> Meridiem is a project by Percy Howard, in which Bill Laswell, Charles
> Hayward and I were invited to participate.  Although much of the music
> is improvised, its content was determined by the texts of the
> songs and
> Percy's ideas, and of course the emotional center of the music is
> Percy's voice.  We finished this project a few hours early and while I
> was waiting to go to the airport, Zorn called and suggested we make a
> trio record for Tzadik.  This we did, and it became a new Massacre
> record called Funny Valentine.  We played eleven pieces with
> no breaks,
> and what you hear on the record is these eleven pieces,
> unedited, in the
> order that we played them, so it's as close to the original reality as
> we could make it!  This record should be out in a couple of weeks.
> Incidentally, Charly records have released the original
> Massacre record
> and you should know that this is a bootleg - they don't have
> a contract
> with me and the musicians don't get a penny from it, so please, if you
> want the first Massacre CD, get the RecRec version!
>
> I'm interested in how intolerant or inflexible in their tastes some
> people seem to be.  I think The Previous Evening is very
> beautiful - I'm
> certainly quite happy with it or I wouldn't have wanted to
> release it -
> but there seems to be an idea out there that only one kind of music is
> allowed, and this ain't it!  I have no problem with anyone liking some
> things more than others, we're all like that, but I find the air of
> political correctness that goes with imposing your own opinion a bit
> odd....  I hope those who find this kind of music arty-farty have the
> courage to listen to it more than once, and preferably without
> distraction.   God knows what you'll make of Pacifica!  Better not buy
> it I guess, wouldn't want to rip you off.  There are plenty
> of places on
> the net where you can hear extracts of the music so as to avoid being
> conned into purchasing it  by beasts such as myself.
>
> Have a nice day
> fred f
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> This Mail was sent by the Fred Frith Mailinglist
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [e-mail]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [e-mail]
> Further Info about the List you'll find under www.fredfrith.com=20



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: some suggestions please....
Date: 12 Sep 1998 17:53:14 -0400 (EDT)


Mingus' "outest" stuff can be found on two Candid LPs:

Charles Mingus Presents Charles Mingus with Ted Curson (tmpt); Eric
Dolphy (as, flu, bc) and Dannie Richmond (d) and Mingus with that group
augmented by such people as Paul Bley.

All of it plus mucho other stuff was reissued in a Mosaic box set a few
years back, but you can probably find he individual CDs

Mingus' masterpiece is The Black Saint and The Sinner Lady (Impulse) with a
small -big band, but it may be more composed than "far out" for you.

Also check Oh Yeah! on Atlantic where Mingus plays piano and sings(!)
with the help of folks like RR Kirk.

Ken Waxman
[e-mail]






On Fri, 11 Sep 1998 [e-mail] wrote:

> i'm looking to buy some mingus and christian marclay. can anyone shoot out
> some suggestons? they would be greatly appreciated. i'm looking for some of
> mingus'
> more "free" stuff. his more complicated and/or "out there" stuff (for lack of
> a better word).
>
> i'm also interested in hearing some turntable/djtype stuff. not club music.
> musicians who push the boundaries of this instrument. any suggestions? thanks
>
>
> jt
>
>
> -
>
>

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Mingus and Steve Lacy
Date: 13 Sep 1998 15:24:13 -0400 (EDT)


The exchange of messages about Mingus was very good. Thanks for everybody
who gave an opinion. Most of them worth following and I will be doing just
that in my still beginning attempt to understand the music of CMingus.

Now: would it be possible to get similar approaches to the music of Steve
Lacy? I've just received a boot recording of one of his trio's shows this
year here in the US and I think it is great: where, how, why -- start to
listen to SLacy seriously? Also heard that Tzadik just released a Lacy
solo CD: is it any good? Finally: most of Lacy's CD's seem to be out of
print or are so expensive that they are not reachable: any suggestions
about tapes or used CDs?

Josef


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "schwitterZ" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Steve Lacy
Date: 13 Sep 1998 12:43:01 -0700

Lacy is so thoroughly documented, you're going to get an onslaught.

THE WAY gets the most listens around here.

THE GLEAM is second.

Don't miss either.

s~Z



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: bar kokhba 0ctober/tonic/help
Date: 13 Sep 1998 16:58:57 EDT

i need some help, i heard bar kokhba(circle maker) playing october 1st-3rd at
tonic. can someone please confirm this and give me information on how to get
tickets from tonic ASAP. is tonic all ages? thank you very much.
alexz

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Jason J. Tar" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Suggestions...turntable.
Date: 13 Sep 1998 20:06:05 -0400

>Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 12:54:08 -0500
>From: [e-mail]
>Subject: some suggestions please....
>i'm also interested in hearing some turntable/djtype stuff. not club music.
>musicians who push the boundaries of this instrument. any suggestions? thanks

Definately check out Otomo Yoshihide/Ground Zero if you haven't.
Particularly his _Les Sculptuers Des Vinyl_, in which Otomo leads a group
of 4 or 5 DJs.  Great cut up compositions.

Also Tsunoda Tsuguto (who is featured on _Les Sculptuers..._) has a few
tapes out that are rather impressive on his own label, Muni Muni.

Finally I might mention DJ Vadim on the Ninja Tune and Jazz Fudge labels.
Particularly his NT album _USSR Repetoire_.  Not as cut up as the previous
two, but still very interesting.

Also mix tapes by the Invisible Skratch Piklz are usually a safe bet...
(Especially Q-Berts' _Demolition Pumpkin Musik_ tape.)

---
Peace Hugs and Unity            Jason J. Tar
        W.    W.    J.    D?
                  (What would Jason Do?)
      http://pilot.msu.edu/user/tarjason
              ICQ@13792120

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: bar kokhba 0ctober/tonic/help
Date: 13 Sep 1998 23:42:37 -0400

[e-mail] wrote:

> i need some help, i heard bar kokhba(circle maker) playing october 1st-3rd at
> tonic. can someone please confirm this and give me information on how to get
> tickets from tonic ASAP. is tonic all ages? thank you very much.

"My sources say it is so," according to the Magic 8 Ball that is
http://www.tonic107.comYou can only get tickets for Tonic by showing up the night
of the show.  Be there early if you want a seat... they are scarce when the crowd
is big.  Tonic is all ages, serves no alcohol as yet, and makes a mean turkey,
brie and arugula with honey-mustard on black bread with a large iced lemon berry
mint tea to wash it down (and those are but a few of the options).

BTW the Masada quartet is celebrating the release of Masada 10 with shows on
Sept. 24-26 at Tonic as well.

Steve Smith
[e-mail]


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: bar kokhba 0ctober/tonic/help
Date: 14 Sep 1998 00:05:40 -0400

Steve Smith wrote:

> Tonic is all ages, serves no alcohol as yet, and makes a mean turkey,
> brie and arugula with honey-mustard on black bread with a large iced lemon berry
> mint tea to wash it down (and those are but a few of the options).

Oh wow... I may have to hit NYC just for that sandwich!

--
---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: bar kokhba 0ctober/tonic/help
Date: 14 Sep 1998 00:46:14 -0400

Joseph Zitt wrote:

> Steve Smith wrote:
>
> > Tonic is all ages, serves no alcohol as yet, and makes a mean turkey,
> > brie and arugula with honey-mustard on black bread with a large iced lemon berry
> > mint tea to wash it down (and those are but a few of the options).
>
> Oh wow... I may have to hit NYC just for that sandwich!

Yeah, and I didn't even mention the bad-ass thick-cut deli-style potato chips and the
cute little bunch of green grapes that come along with that particular sandwich.  And
don't get me started on the turkey, avocado and roasted red pepper...

And David Newgarden allowed me a little taste of his hazelnut gelato the other night
and I *swear* my knees went weak...  And did I mention that Tonic is run by the same
folks who control the extraordinary titular brew at alt.coffee?  Or that the lemonade
is *blue* because it's sweetened not with sugar but with blue Curacao (non-alcoholic
version, of course...).

And if you visit Tonic during the day, you can even get your hair styled!  What a
concept...

Steve Smith
[e-mail]


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jack Blanton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Roadrunner in Realaudio
Date: 14 Sep 1998 00:54:26 -0400

For anyone interested: Zorn's Roadrunner piece is part of the playlist on
Mappings with Herb Levy on antenna "radio" this week.  Go to
http://www.antennaradio.com/avant/mappings/pn.htm
It is the second from last track (#8).  Enjoy.


Jack Blanton
[e-mail]


Jack Blanton
[e-mail]


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: bar kokhba 0ctober/tonic/help
Date: 14 Sep 1998 01:50:13 -0400

> http://www.tonic107.comYou

Wow, I don't get this computer stuff sometimes.  I don't know why Netscape decided to
get jiggy wit' it, but here's an accurate link to Tonic's site (for those who hadn't
figured out my botch already)...

http://www.tonic107.com

Steve Smith
[e-mail]
... PAYING my way in just like anybody else ...


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Stefan Verstraeten <[e-mail]>
Subject: reaction for fred frith
Date: 14 Sep 1998 09:36:15 +0200

> >Fred Frith wrote
> >good day,
> >I'm interested in how intolerant or inflexible in their tastes some
> >people seem to be.  I think The Previous Evening is very beautiful -
> >but there seems to be an idea out there that only one kind of music is
> >allowed, and this ain't it!  I have no problem with anyone liking some
> >things more than others, we're all like that, but I find the air of
> >political correctness that goes with imposing your own opinion a bit
> >odd....  I hope those who find this kind of music arty-farty have the
> >courage to listen to it more than once, and preferably without distrac=
tion

First of all, thank you mr. fred frith for participating in the
discussion, but something bothers me quite a bit. Yes, I am the person
who found the previous evening a bit 'arty farty' (maybe these words
were a little bit too harsh, sorry for that). But, since this is a
discussion list, where all people share their comments on cd's, I
thought, why can't I express my opinion as well.
Accusing me (indirectly) of 'political incorrectness' really hits me
(and other people on the zornlist or frithlist who give their opinion on
cd's). Because Mr. Frith, when i shared my opinion on 'the previous
evening' it was IN NO WAY to distract people from buying this cd.
Plus, Mr. Frith, -as you seem to follow the discussions on the
discussion list- you know that it was I (the so called political correct
guy) who defened twice the 'meridiem' cd. Quite some people on the
zornlist and on the frithlist didn't like the album (that's an opinion),
but hey, that didn't stop me from saying to other people on the
discussion lists that they should listen N=FBs ([e-mail]) first
(the record, angels, is out on sub rosa, http://www.subrosa.net) first,
and then listen to meridiem, and see what a beautiful album meridiem was
and still is.... So, that makes me one time a political correct guy, and
the other (which you don't mention) i was one of the main defenders of
the meridiem album.

> >God knows what you'll make of Pacifica!  Better not buy
> >it I guess, wouldn't want to rip you off.

Well, as you know, Mr. Frith, i launched indeed the question what people
found of this album. As you can see on the frith list. Some people
disliked it, other people wrote to me saying that this was an album to
buy..... WHICH I DID, mr. fred frith. So you see, mr. frith, that the
opinions (NOT political correct statements) that were expressed by some
people didn't distract me from bying 'pacifica' (a great album by the
way, quite a lot more than what people called 'wallpaper ambient', fans
said this, not political correct persons)

So let's see,=20
(1)I shared an opnion on 'the previous evening', saying that the album
sounded a bit 'arty farty' to me (i allready said sorry for the
expression) BUT NEVER SAID THAT IT WAS A RIP OFF (that's a difference to
me), nor was it in my way to distract people from buying it, nor was I
IMPOSING MY OPNINION.
(2)I defended the 'meridiem' album
(3)Even with some negative opnions on the frith list, I still bought the
pacifica album (THAT PROVES THAT WHAT OTHER PEOPLE SAID OF THIS ALBUM
DID NOT CHANGED MY WILL)

Sorry Mr. Frith, but nobody on this lists does something like 'political
correct statements' (we have a listowner). We are just a group of people
who like the same music, who help each other out on finding albums,
labels,... And yes, we comment the albums a great musicians like you
mister fred frith. And when somenone wants to say something about an
album (remember the discussion on 'weird little boy'), he or she doens't
want to distract people or giving political correct statements or
imposing their will on other people. No way, he or she just wants to
share an opnion.

Accusing me and other people of 'policital correctness' really hurts me
mr. fred frith. Thats all I wanted to say.... to a very great musician.

Best wishes,
[e-mail]

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Geoff S Gersh)
Subject: Singe/M.Gibbs/G.Coleman/Gersh/Verb
Date: 14 Sep 1998 03:54:12 -0400

DJ Singe & Geoff Gersh
with special guests:

Melvin Gibbs-bass<>Grisha Coleman-vox<>MC Verb

turntables+guitar+flash+

Thursday Sept. 17  11pm
Alterknit Theatre @ the Knitting Factory
74 Leonard St.  219-3006

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: reaction for fred frith
Date: 14 Sep 1998 08:58:54 -0500

A few observations on Stefans reply to fred;

    Its possible that stefan has taken offense where none was intended.
Where fred says  "god knows what they'd make of Pacifica", I think he
has his tongue planted firmly in his cheek.
    The term political correctness, though used quite often, has more than
one meaning. It started out as a self-effacing in-joke among
liberals/progressives in the US, mainly in response to the trend of
making the bureaucracy gender and race neutral, i.e  repairperson vs
repairman, african/american vs black  etc.
    Conservatives, who seem(at least in the US) to be unable to recognize
satire or self-criticism for what it is, seized upon the term as part of
an effort to demonize anything they perceive as left of center. Hence,
it has become a catch-all phrase for any authoritarian dogma that tells
people how to think/act/behave.
    In the context of Freds post, he seems (to me anyway) to merely be
expressing his disappointment that a lot of the people who liked his
more rock oriented works(Art Bears,Massacre, Keep The Dog, the Ralph
releases) are not keen on, and in some cases, highly dismissive, of his
more recent directions. Whether this is a case of an artist outgrowing
his fan base, or just a case of sour grapes, is open to interpretation,
but something tells me, Fred's comments are more a result of talking to
his fans on a regular basis, than a personal dig at Stefan.

just my 2c

RW

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Stefan Verstraeten <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: reaction for fred frith
Date: 14 Sep 1998 15:29:12 +0200

[e-mail] wrote:
> A few observations on Stefans reply to fred;
> but something tells me, Fred's comments are more a result of talking
>to his fans on a regular basis, than a personal dig at Stefan.
> just my 2c
> RW

Yes indeed, but that leaves one question open:
When someone gives an opinion on a record (and we all remember the
discussions on 'weird little boy' and 'nanni nanni' by John Zorn), does
this person actually wants to distract people from buying this record
(as mr. fred frith said) or does this person just wants to share his or
her personal point of vieuw.
Personally, I never want to lay my will upon people when I give my
opinion on a record (after all, who cares about my opinion and what is
it worth.... damned, I ain't no dictator, I'm just a music lover), I
just want to share my feelings towards a specific record.... isn't this
what the discussion list was created for???
But hey, this is the last thing I say about this (public) discussion
between Fred Frith and me. He gave his point of the discussion, I gave
mine. He's a very great musician, I'll just shut up.

Stefan

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: THANKS for the suggestions:
Date: 14 Sep 1998 09:43:26 EDT

thanks to those who emailed and posted mingus suggestions.
one more question:

i saw an album on vinyl which featured mingus and cecil taylor (i think as a
duo.) has anybody heard this album?

thanks again
jt

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Scott Handley" <[e-mail]>
Subject: tony conrad redux: but not an argument
Date: 14 Sep 1998 07:18:22 PDT

I really should go back to the archives, but since it's been about a
month since the TC thread, I'd like to ask for forgiveness and grace,
and a handful of private e.mails, so as not to disrupt the list.

Could I get a few opinions re: Conrad's EARLY MINIMALISM vol. 1, or--for
that matter--any of his work?  I finally made it over to the Table of
the Elements Tony Conrad site, and the box set LOOKS great.  But what
does it sound "like"?  Please understand, I don't know anyone who's into
this stuff.  I suppose ya'll could post, if it'd be helpful to anyone
else.

Thanks in advance, happy listening to all.

---scot

NP:  Mauricio Kagel's String quartet #2.  Weird, intersticial stuff.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Joseph S. Zitt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: tony conrad redux: but not an argument
Date: 14 Sep 1998 09:40:49 -0500 (CDT)

On Mon, 14 Sep 1998, Scott Handley wrote:

> Could I get a few opinions re: Conrad's EARLY MINIMALISM vol. 1, or--for
> that matter--any of his work?  I finally made it over to the Table of
> the Elements Tony Conrad site, and the box set LOOKS great.  But what
> does it sound "like"?  Please understand, I don't know anyone who's into
> this stuff.  I suppose ya'll could post, if it'd be helpful to anyone
> else.

The boxed set does look great, with sharp packaging, an intriguing large
booklet, and good CD-ROM material on one disc.

His other CD, "Slapping Pythagoras", looks intriguing at first glance, but
the text is almost unreadable.

As for the music, well... it's less noisy than Metal Machine Music, more
varied that 60-cycle hum, and more exciting than an MRI scan. It's a good
representation of what he does live, except it's easier to escape a CD.

- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tom Pratt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Journal Violone
Date: 14 Sep 1998 19:24:02 -0400

I found a copy of Barre Phillips's first solo recording 'Journal
Violone' for sale today and was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on
this. Every reference I've read or heard to this record has called it
"very early solo recordings" or something implying that it isn't very
mature. I'm wondering if this is true or not and whether this record is
worth buying. Any thoughts?

Also, did the Jazz Composer's Orchestra double-LP (w/Pharoah, Rudd,
Cecil, etc.) ever get reissued onto CD? I found a copy of that too.

                -Tom Pratt

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Brian Olewnick <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Journal Violone
Date: 14 Sep 1998 19:55:20 -0400

Tom Pratt wrote:
>
> I found a copy of Barre Phillips's first solo recording 'Journal
> Violone' for sale today and was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on
> this. Every reference I've read or heard to this record has called it
> "very early solo recordings" or something implying that it isn't very
> mature. I'm wondering if this is true or not and whether this record is
> worth buying. Any thoughts?

I've never gotten to hear this, though a bass-player friend thinks it's
the finest bass-oriented thing ever put to wax.
>
> Also, did the Jazz Composer's Orchestra double-LP (w/Pharoah, Rudd,
> Cecil, etc.) ever get reissued onto CD? I found a copy of that too.
>
Yes, JCOA released it four or five years back, though I get the
impression that it's no longer in print. It was on one CD with, for
reasons I don't understand, tracks 3 & 4 flip-flopped, thus giving you
the Sanders onslaught back to back with the Taylor maelstrom. One of THE
greatest records ever made, IM-increasingly not so-HO.

Brian Olewnick

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tom Pratt <[e-mail]>
Subject: reissues
Date: 14 Sep 1998 19:38:16 -0400

Some lost rarities of interest have been reissued so I thought I'd let
you know about them. Alan Shorter's 'Orgasm' has been reissued for a
limited time by Verve and 'Alabama Feeling' by Arthur Doyle + 4 has also
been reissued (not by Verve!). I picked both up today so it's too early
to give any comments but just so you know... (I saw the original vinyl
for 'Orgasm' go for $150 the other day and apparently the original vinyl
for the Doyle goes up to $200 in Japan).

Some recent purchases that I highly recommend:

Sun City Girls - 330,003 Crossdressers From Beyond the Rig Veda
  Double CD on Abduction with Eyvind Kang guesting on a 34 minute track.
  An incredible disc (especially the first disc).
Shamanistic Ceremonies From The Eastern Seaboard (JVC World Series)
  Traditional music from Korea. At times you will swear your listening
  to a Giuseppi Logan/Milford Graves duo. Amazing!

                -Tom Pratt

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Brian Olewnick <[e-mail]>
Subject: Coupla British composers
Date: 14 Sep 1998 20:05:55 -0400

Has anyone heard the music of either Dave Smith or John White (not names
that'll stand out in a crowd, I guess)? I came across them in the liners
to Howard Skempton's stunningly gorgeous album, 'Well, Well, Cornelius'
(Sony Classical SK 66482), where they're cited as composers often
featured in John Tilbury's recitals. Tilbury, through both my recent
exposure to his work with AMM and this record, is swiftly becoming a
strong favorite of mine; I'm eagerly looking forward to his release of
the complete Feldman piano works this fall.

Skempton's disc, by the way, consists of 44 short pieces for piano that
remind me of Satie in his spare, "Rosicrucian" period, combined with
dashes of Rzewski and Cardew, all of it refracted through a Feldmanesque
prism (Morty, not Marty!). Deceptively simple jewels, strikingly
beautiful.

Brian Olewnick

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Pierre Toussaint <[e-mail]>
Subject: masada 10
Date: 14 Sep 1998 20:28:38 -0500

CDnow anounces that Masada 10 will be released on the 15th of september.
Hope this is news for all of you, it was for me.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Jason J. Tar" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Suggestions...Turntable (addition).
Date: 14 Sep 1998 21:02:41 -0400

Got the new DJ Disk cd called _Ancient Termites_.  Most impressive, some
tracks are traditional hip hop cut-ups, but many are more about textures.
Much better than the recent Mix Master Mike cd.  Features Brain and
Buckethead on a couple tracks.  Out on the Bomb Hip Hop label.  (DJ Disk
also recently remixed Primus and was featured on the live Praxis album
along with the other ISPiklz.)

I would recommend AVOIDING anything by X-Ecutioners, who are often touted
as worthwhile DJs.  Their cd on Asphodel, called _X-Pressions_, is weighed
down with a whole lot of awful MCs who take away from the cuts.  How many
times do you want to hear some guy yell "Roc Raida"??  :(  [Though they do
have a Japanese cd recently out called _Japan X-clusive_ that supposedly
features Japanese MCs that might not be as awful, but still....]
---
Peace Hugs and Unity            Jason J. Tar
        W.    W.    J.    D?
                  (What would Jason Do?)
      http://pilot.msu.edu/user/tarjason
              ICQ@13792120

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re:  Coupla British composers
Date: 14 Sep 1998 21:37:50 EDT


In a message dated 9/14/98 8:14:00 PM, [e-mail] wrote:

<<Has anyone heard the music of either Dave Smith or John White (not names
that'll stand out in a crowd, I guess)? I came across them in the liners
to Howard Skempton's stunningly gorgeous album, 'Well, Well, Cornelius'
(Sony Classical SK 66482), where they're cited as composers often
featured in John Tilbury's recitals. Tilbury, through both my recent
exposure to his work with AMM and this record, is swiftly becoming a
strong favorite of mine; >>

then you'll be happy to know that Matchless 14 is John Tilbury-Dave Smith's
First Piano Concert. this is one of the few Matchless titles I haven't heard
so I can't give you feedback on how it is but it is out there.

<<I'm eagerly looking forward to his release of the complete Feldman piano
works this fall.>>

any more info on this? what label is it on? how many CDs?

Jon, who just bumped his vacation back a week so he wouldn't miss Keiji
Haino's visit to NYC.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Caleb Deupree <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: some suggestions please....
Date: 15 Sep 1998 09:57:36 -0400

>>>>> "jt" == jtalbot  <[e-mail]> writes:

    jt> i'm looking to buy some mingus and christian marclay. can
    jt> anyone shoot out some suggestons? they would be greatly
    jt> appreciated. i'm looking for some of mingus' more "free"
    jt> stuff. his more complicated and/or "out there" stuff (for lack
    jt> of a better word).

Marclay's work on Butch Morris' Conduction 22 with Le Quan Ninh and
Gunter Muller on percussion, JA Deane on trombone and live sampling,
and Martin Schutz on cello is nothing short of amazing, the best
conduction I've heard so far.  I like this better than Marclay's solo
work that I've heard.

    jt> i'm also interested in hearing some turntable/djtype
    jt> stuff. not club music.  musicians who push the boundaries of
    jt> this instrument. any suggestions? thanks

Check out David Shea's work, especially Satyricon, Tower of Mirrors,
or Prisoner; and Otomo Yoshihide, either his solo work, or his more
well known 'band' Ground Zero.  All GZ is interesting, but I would
start with their Null & Void (on Tzadik, their most widely available),
Revolutionary Pekinese Opera, Consume Red (both on ReR) or Plays
Standards.

Although John Oswald doesn't DJ or play turntables, his plunderphonics
work is essential if you're interested in reusing pre-existing
recordings, which is at least part of what turntable players do.
Oswald works with more classical tape techniques, so the act of
scratching or live turntable manipulation is completely missing.  If
you have a good internet connection, you can download his first
(banned) album, or look for Plexure on Avant, which is phenomenal.


---
Caleb T. Deupree
;; Opinions...  funny thing about opinions, they can change.

Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers.
(Pablo Picasso)


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DR S WILKIE <[e-mail]>
Subject:       Masada Songbook
Date: 15 Sep 1998 15:28:21 GMT0BST

Anybody know what number 191 in the Masada Songbook is?

Sean

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: David Slusser's Rubber City?
Date: 15 Sep 1998 11:07:13 -0500


     Reading the interview with Slusser on the Perfect Sound Forever site
     (thanks, Jason), he mentions this band, consisting of himself and
     Ralph Carney on reeds, w/ bass and drums. Pre-dating the founding of
     Masada, the band apparently works a similar post-Ornette territory.

     Slusser didn't say whether this band has recorded; if not, has anyone
     heard them? Opinions?

     There was a commercial a coupla years back (for brillo-like pads?)
     featuring a bunch or dancing, clattering pots and pans. I'd always
     thought the rhythms were surprisingly complex and enjoyable,
     surprising in that context. I feel a bit vindicated upon now
     discovering that Slusser was responsible for the music!

     Brian Olewnick




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:    jascha <[e-mail]>
Subject: bloodcount tapes
Date: 15 Sep 1998 12:39:42 -0400 (EDT)


Awhile ago someone on this list agreed to tape me some bloodcount stuff,
which has yet to arrive here.  I'm thinking maybe my address got lost
before it could be sent, so if you're they guy who's kindly taping stuff
for me, please write back and i'll send you my address again.

Sorry for the use of bandwidth, everyone else...

-jascha



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Robert A. Pleshar" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: David Slusser's Rubber City?
Date: 15 Sep 1998 11:43:34 -0500 (CDT)

Slusser & Carney are both from Akron (home of Goodyear and other rubber
companies). Hence the name of their band. I don't know what they sounded
like though. I believe bay area reedist Dan Plonsey is also originally from
Akron.

Geographically yours,
Ralph


At 11:07 AM 9/15/98 -0500, [e-mail] wrote:
>
>     Reading the interview with Slusser on the Perfect Sound Forever site
>     (thanks, Jason), he mentions this band, consisting of himself and
>     Ralph Carney on reeds, w/ bass and drums. Pre-dating the founding of
>     Masada, the band apparently works a similar post-Ornette territory.
>
>     Slusser didn't say whether this band has recorded; if not, has anyone
>     heard them? Opinions?
>
>     There was a commercial a coupla years back (for brillo-like pads?)
>     featuring a bunch or dancing, clattering pots and pans. I'd always
>     thought the rhythms were surprisingly complex and enjoyable,
>     surprising in that context. I feel a bit vindicated upon now
>     discovering that Slusser was responsible for the music!
>
>     Brian Olewnick
>
>
>
>
>-
>
>


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Nathan M Earixson)
Subject: Re: David Slusser's Rubber City?
Date: 15 Sep 1998 11:42:32 -0500



On Tue, 15 Sep 98 11:07:13 -0500 [e-mail] writes:
>
>     Reading the interview with Slusser on the Perfect Sound Forever
>site
>     (thanks, Jason), he mentions this band, consisting of himself and
>
>     Ralph Carney on reeds, w/ bass and drums. Pre-dating the founding
>of
>     Masada, the band apparently works a similar post-Ornette
>territory.
>
>     Slusser didn't say whether this band has recorded; if not, has
>anyone
>     heard them? Opinions?


Is it possible that this is the 'Rubber City' that plays on the
soundtrack to David Lynch's  'Wild at Heart'?


-nathan
_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: john shiurba <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: David Slusser's Rubber City?
Date: 15 Sep 1998 11:47:35 -0700

> Reading the interview with Slusser on the Perfect Sound Forever site
>      (thanks, Jason), he mentions this band, consisting of himself and
>      Ralph Carney on reeds, w/ bass and drums. Pre-dating the founding of
>      Masada, the band apparently works a similar post-Ornette territory.

>      Slusser didn't say whether this band has recorded; if not, has anyone
>      heard them? Opinions?

I've seen them a few times. They're great, but I don't know what if
anything they have to do with, or why they would be seen as predating
Masada, other than they were around before Masada and they're an
interesting jazz group.
I don't think they've released any recordings.
--



[e-mail]
http://www.sfo.com/~shiurba

I don't wake up for less than $10,000 a day.
(L. Evangelista)

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Deanna Lee <[e-mail]>
Subject: Japanese noise
Date: 15 Sep 1998 14:11:08 -0600

 Does anyone know of clubs/venues in Tokyo where I can find good noise a la
Boredoms, Ruins, Zeni Geva, etc.?  Or websites to guide me there?



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:    William York <[e-mail]>
Subject: New K.F./Tzadik/Avant DIW
Date: 15 Sep 1998 15:44:53 -0400 (EDT)

Yesterday we got a huge shipment of stuff from these guys at the radio (I
think it all came in the same box) so I ended up taking home about 13 new
CDs, including Zorn's Ganyru Island, Aporias, and Masada 10.

Anyway, I just wanted to say that I heard the first few songs of the new
Naftule's Dream (_Smash, Clap!_) and it sounds awesome.  It's produced by
Laswell and while I'm often not too big on his production, this has a huge
sound to it and the playing and writing are superb.  I haven't had a
chance to hear the whole thing but so far this is one of the most
immediately likeable and most rocking Tzadik CDs I've heard.

Also, Bruce Ackley of ROVA has a trio CD with Joey Baron and Greg Cohen
which is just excellent straight ahead trio jazz.  I'm not a big soprano
sax fan but this sounded great on the first listen.

With Ganyru Island, I was surprised how in-noisy it was.  The shamisen
player (forgt the name) plays a lot of straight rhytmic parts while Zorn
is doing the duck calls and so forth.  I just made it to trck #6 where
things started to come together a little bit more, but before that they
weren't blending together so well.  His duck call playing, underwater sax
and all that seems a bit more gimmicky than on Locus Solus, which just
amazes me.  Still, its fairly interesting.

Aporias is pretty short (30:00 or so) and quiet, but not extremely quiet.
I can't give a lot of comparisons to other classical composers, but I'll
just say it seems on the less extreme side and sounds good so far.

The Knitting Factory Stuff (Brigan Krauss, E#, Zony Mash) sounded o.k. but
didn't really knock me out.  I was disappointed to hear Krauss doing so
much improv, I would rather just hear him PLAY and not hear all this
tentative bouncing ideas off each other stuff (most of it sounded like
they just rolled the tape and played and kept what they liked).  The Knit
also put out a CD single of Hasidic New Wave and God is My Copilot doing a
remade version of The Dead Kennedy's "California Uber Alles" with new
political lyrics about Mayor Guilliani (sp?).  No, I'm not kidding either.

I've got to go home and listen to all this stuff again, plus the new KF Cd
with Thomas Chapin and the Berlin Contemporary Jazz Orchestra.  Sorry to
be so vague, just wanted to brag  about having all this stuff
(temporarily) for free.

WY


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re[2]: David Slusser's Rubber City?
Date: 15 Sep 1998 15:55:12 -0500




     John wrote:

>I've seen them a few times. They're great, but I don't know what if
>anything they have to do with, or why they would be seen as predating
>Masada, other than they were around before Masada and they're an
>interesting jazz group.
     >I don't think they've released any recordings.

     In the interview, Slusser made mention of the fact, implying (to me,
     anyway) that there was a similarity in approach. If not, not.

     Brian O.



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Taylor McLaren <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: David Slusser's Rubber City?
Date: 15 Sep 1998 17:35:49 -0400 (EDT)


MEEP! Nathan Earixson wrote:
>Is it possible that this is the 'Rubber City' that plays on the
>soundtrack to David Lynch's  'Wild at Heart'?
Given that this interview (http://www.furious.com/perfect/slusser.html)
specifically mentions the work that Meester Slusser did on Wild at Heart
and Firewalk With Me, yeah... I'd say that there's a good chance that
they're one and the same.
  I'm suddenly very interested in hearing _Delight_.

-me



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: David Beardsley <[e-mail]>
Subject: POSITION: MONITOR for DREAM HOUSE exhibition (Volunteer Interns)
Date: 15 Sep 1998 19:43:23 -0400

MELA Foundation Inc.
275 Church Street New York, NY 10013
212-925-8270

September 1998

Mela Foundation is seeking interns for unpaid
volunteer positions of Monitor for Dream House exhibition.

Dream House: Seven Years of Sound and Light,
a collaborative Sound and Light Environment by
composer La Monte Young and visual artist Marian
Zazeela, is presented in an extended exhibition
at MELA Foundation, 275 Church Street, 3rd Floor.
Young and Zazeela characterize the Sound and Light
Environment as a "time installation measured by a
setting of continuous frequencies in sound and light."

POSITION: MONITOR for DREAM HOUSE exhibition (Volunteer Interns)

Hours:  Exhibition is open Thursdays and Saturdays
from 2:00 PM to Midnight. Time slots of four to six
hours need to be filled on those days.

Description:  Monitor will open or close exhibition;
turn on electronic sound equiptment and turn up
light environment; make sure all technical equiptment
is running properly; greet visitors; distribute
information; answer questions concerning the
environment; sell books and recordings.

Contact:  Call the MELA Foundation, 212-925-8270.
If you call, leave a message on the answering machine
with your phone number and times we can reach you.
Or come to 275 Church Street, 3rd Floor, Thursdays
and Saturdays, 2:00 PM to Midnight, and experience
the environment and speak to the monitor on
duty.

Press Commentary on Exhibition:

"... the multifaceted form of the 35-frequency
construction of Young's current installation is
the principal reason it changes hallucinogenically
with every shift in perspective and why the tones
freeze in place as long as one is perfectly still
while the slightest gesture will startle forth
unnamable, wildly plumed melodies from the
luxuriant harmonic foliage. Zazeela's light
sculptures have invariably, teasingly refused
to surrender their entire secret to photographic
reprodution, so much do they depend on
the retinal impact of activated photons in real
time and so much do they exploit, in ways analagous
to Young's techniques, the creation of visual
combination tones and an accumulation of after-images."

-- Sandy McCroskey, 1/1, The Journal of the Just Intonation Network

"Young's newest sine-tone sculpture shimmers and
swirls as you walk around the room and, amazingly,
when you freeze, it does too.  Stay at least long
enough to stare at Zazeela's Imagic Light and Ruine
Window, which will imprint your retina with blues
and purples you haven't felt before."

-- Kyle Gann, The Village Voice

"The visitor with an acute ear can actually 'play'
the room like an instrument: explore the sound close
to the wall, close to the floor, in the corner, or
just standing still.  Or lie on the floor and allow
the sound to float you into heaven, slide you into
hell, or transport you wherever you want to go.
See if you agree with those who call Young's sound
sculpture a precursor of ambient music.
Zazeela's light installation, "Imagic Light," offers
an intriuging complement to the sound, even though
it is equally effective when viewed in
silence.  Using pairs of colored lights and suspended
aluminum mobiles cut out in calligraphic shapes,
Zazeela explores the relationship between object
and shadow, making the tangible intangible, and vice
versa.  Enjoy the installation for its mesmerizing
beauty, or try to analyze how the different
colors are achieved, how the mobiles create the
resulting shadows, or perspective the infinite number
of symmetrical patterns in the room."

-- David Farneth, Metrobeat

Music        Eternal        Light
               Art



*    David Beardsley
*    [e-mail]
*
*    virtual dream house monitor
*                         for the MELA Foundation
*
*    http://www.virtulink.com/mela/main.htm



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "ADM" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: David Slusser's Rubber City?
Date: 15 Sep 1998 18:08:05 -0700

    David Slusser was nice enough to send me a tape of Rubber City when I
asked him about it at the Sun-Ra tribute at Yoshi's earlier this summer.  I
also saw them play once in January and they were great.  There seem to be
some guests on the tape he sent me including a vibes (or some such mallet
instrument) player and a guitarist.  I seem to remember hearing somewhere
about something concerning recording an album.  So... yea.

-Aaron


>
>     Reading the interview with Slusser on the Perfect Sound Forever site
>     (thanks, Jason), he mentions this band, consisting of himself and
>     Ralph Carney on reeds, w/ bass and drums. Pre-dating the founding of
>     Masada, the band apparently works a similar post-Ornette territory.
>
>     Slusser didn't say whether this band has recorded; if not, has anyone
>     heard them? Opinions?
>
>     There was a commercial a coupla years back (for brillo-like pads?)
>     featuring a bunch or dancing, clattering pots and pans. I'd always
>     thought the rhythms were surprisingly complex and enjoyable,
>     surprising in that context. I feel a bit vindicated upon now
>     discovering that Slusser was responsible for the music!
>
>     Brian Olewnick



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject:  David Slusser's Rubber City.......on tape
Date: 15 Sep 1998 22:27:48 EDT

david slusser was kind enough to send me a  recording of his band "rubber
city" in return for a favor i did for him. it's a live show, not studio
recording. it's fabulous!

he mentioned to me that he was hoping to someday be picked up by a label. when
i asked him about rubber city he was excited to discuss  the project. i know
that he was once a member of the zorn list, i don't know if he still is.
jt

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: the bribe
Date: 15 Sep 1998 22:28:52 EDT

i picked up the bribe today, it's great. i don't know much about music, it's
nice to hear the themes in Spillane expanded upon though. all in all a very
enjoyable album, i'd like to hear about Aproprias if anyone has heard it.

from,
matt

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Yves Dewulf <[e-mail]>
Subject: Bennink/Patton
Date: 16 Sep 1998 10:38:58 +0200



Bad news for everyone intending to go to Bennink/Patton at the
Vooruit (Ghent,Belgium). The show has been cancelled.

YVes


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: David D Egan <[e-mail]>
Subject: FS: Plexure
Date: 16 Sep 1998 10:33:19 -0700

I had the good fortune to run across about a half dozen copies of
Oswald's Plexure in a clearance bin recently.  For those of you who have
been holding off on this one because it violated the buck-a-minute rule,
now's your chance.  I'll let them go for $10 each, postpaid in the US.
Most of them are new, but a couple look like they have been opened and
returned(!)  Respond at [e-mail] if you're interested.

- Dave

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: any idea about this record?
Date: 16 Sep 1998 10:57:51 -0700


    Does anybody know the following record?


*** - HELLO POP TART: Tomoko Mukaiyama

  Plays Cowell to Zorn.

  Tomoko Mukaiyama: keyboards.

    1998 (?) - BVHaast (Holland), BVH 9801 (CD)


    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Benito Vergara" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Zorn at Slim's, SF 9/15
Date: 16 Sep 1998 14:25:37 -0700

First off, the concert was pretty damned *loud*. I should've expected
something hardcore, what with the lineup -- Zorn on sax, Dave Lombardo (from
Slayer and Grip Inc.) on drums, and Mike Patton from Faith No More on
vocals, radio static and, uh, power electronics. But this was certainly one
of the loudest and noisiest concerts I've ever attended, stopping just a bit
short of actual physical damage. (Or maybe not; my poor eardrums were
ringing for hours afterward. That should teach me to wear earplugs next
time.)

Zorn, wearing neck-length hair and wearing a red T-shirt (can't describe
those pants, but I wouldn't wear them), blew fast and furious riffs and
mostly stayed at the high end of the scale (with the usual
strangled-duck-calls-in-a-bowl-of-water routine); I can only remember a few
moments when he slowed things down -- brief bursts of more, uh, meditative
sections, if you will. Lombardo pummeled the hell out of his drum kit with
his heavy, violent machine-gun drumming. And Patton now has an expanded
repertoire of yelps, screams, dry retches and sputters to boot (one piece
featured all of Patton's vocals on reverb which, um, doubled the intensity
of the experience). In addition, Patton would coax, out of his synth-thing
(sorry, I have no idea what it was called), these large slabs of
Whitehouse-like electronic noise, with all the gurgling, screeching and
buzzing that you'd ever want to hear. Or not. (One piece began with a
horribly high-pitched whine, which Zorn replicated on his sax. This went on
for almost a whole nausea-inducing minute, I swear. One of the waitpersons
got somewhat agitated and loudly said "Oh God," hurrying away after putting
away the beer glasses.)

Otherwise they didn't talk to the audience or anything, but that was no
surprise. There was one brief funny moment when some guy in the crowd
yelled, "I love you, John Zorn" and Zorn started making big smoochy noises
at the audience. "No, really," the guy shouted, which made the crowd laugh
even more. The only annoying thing about the concert were these two jerks in
the middle (god, I hope they're not on this list) who kept trying to holler
along with Patton. The concert ended with Zorn, Lombardo and Patton giving
each other hugs -- that was nice.

All in all, it was still quite an enjoyable concert (except for some parts
of physical discomfort) -- but basically it was aural assault after aural
assault. Not that it was unstructured or anything, but all I can pick out
are interesting moments -- Lombardo getting different sounds out of this
Paiste gong, Zorn scratching the microphone with another mic (and matching
Patton scream for scream at one point), a little snippet of something from
Filmworks 1, and the veins on Patton's neck sticking out like Henry
Rollins's. On the whole, though, I'd rather be seeing Masada (they're coming
here in November).

My apologies to the person who posted a message asking who was going to the
SF concerts; I lost your e-mail address. I wouldn't have minded company
either, since there was no way my wife was ever going to go. =)

Later,
Ben

np: amon duul, "im garten sandosa"

http://www.bigfoot.com/~bvergara/
ICQ# 12832406


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Caleb Deupree <[e-mail]>
Subject: Lou Reed in a special performance
Date: 16 Sep 1998 17:44:18 -0400

From the CNN web site, the story on Clinton and Czech President Vaclav
Havel:

    CNN> Havel is on a five-day visit to the U.S.  He will be honored
    CNN> by Clinton and first lady Hillary Rodham Clinton at a White
    CNN> House state dinner Wednesday night, featuring rock 'n roll
    CNN> star Lou Reed.

Perhaps he'll give a special reprise of Metal Machine Music, or maybe
JZ gave him some etiquette lessons after Havel's visit to the Knit
with Mme. Albright a while back.





---
Caleb T. Deupree
;; Opinions...  funny thing about opinions, they can change.

Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers.
(Pablo Picasso)


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: new Praxis?
Date: 16 Sep 1998 15:25:32 -0700


    Just saw the following record:


*** - MOLD: Praxis

    1998 - Yikes Records (USA), ??? (CD)


Did we ever talk about it on the list (wondering how I could have missed it)?
Could somebody comment it? Jeff, any info on the label?

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Spirer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: new Praxis?
Date: 16 Sep 1998 18:43:09 -0700

At 03:25 PM 9/16/98 -0700, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:
>
>    Just saw the following record:
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
>
>*** - MOLD: Praxis
>
>    1998 - Yikes Records (USA), ??? (CD)
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
>
>Did we ever talk about it on the list (wondering how I could have missed it)?
>Could somebody comment it? Jeff, any info on the label?

Yikes is run by Peter Wetherbee, who used to run Axiom.  This is their
fourth release, prior ones include a recording in the Phillipines, an
African drum CD, and a re-release of the Cypher 7 discs.  This one is 1984,
reworked, remixed.


Jeff Spirer
B&W Photos: http://www.pomegranates.com/frame/spirer/
Color and B&W Photos: http://www.hyperreal.org/~jeffs/gallery.html
Axiom/Material: http://www.hyperreal.org/axiom/

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: new Praxis?
Date: 16 Sep 1998 23:38:01 -0400

Jeff Spirer wrote:

> Yikes is run by Peter Wetherbee, who used to run Axiom.

And, of particular interest to this here list, was one of the original cofounders
of Tzadik.

Steve Smith
[e-mail]


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jack Blanton <[e-mail]>
Subject: masada soundtrack question
Date: 17 Sep 1998 00:36:28 -0400

I was looking at the cite at Music Blvd. and came accross this under
Masada.  Does anybody know anything about this?  (Sorry about the bad
formating, I cut and pasted it):

$ 14.99


                 Varese -- Records Ltd --
                 Released 12/10/97
                 Catalog Number: 5249



                 Track Listing
                                          Top of Page



                     The Old City (03:26)
                    3.
                     The Planting (02:56)
                    4.
                     The Road To Masada (06:54)
                    5.
                     Night Raid (03:30)

                                               6.
                                                 Our Land (04:41)
                                               7.
                                                 The Encampment (02:30)
                                               8.
                                                 No Water (02:30)
                                               9.
                                                 The Slaves (05:14)
Jack Blanton
[e-mail]


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: masada soundtrack question
Date: 17 Sep 1998 01:24:31 -0400

Jack Blanton wrote:

> I was looking at the cite at Music Blvd. and came accross this under
> Masada.  Does anybody know anything about this? [snip]

Jerry Goldsmith soundtrack to a 1970 feature film about the historical
incident from which Zorn's current quartet and a specific body of his music
take their name.

Steve Smith
[e-mail]


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Stefan Verstraeten <[e-mail]>
Subject: info on skeleton crew : Etymology
Date: 17 Sep 1998 09:04:54 +0200

Dear Listmembers,

Since quite some time, something's very interesting is mentioned on the
fred frith website. It is an album by Skeleton Crew, called Etymology.
I was wondering if anyone on the list ownes this amazing cd.
I know that Bill Laswell did a similar thing some time ago, but this
skeleton crew album consists of new exlusive material (recorded in 1995
by frith & cora), it's on rarefaction label (http://www.rarefaction.com)
So, can someone -who ownes the cd- give some revieuws on it? What's on
it, is it easy to use, does it contain frith solo samples - cora solo
samples - duo samples - is it real time recorded or edited - ....
The idea of the cd seems great: making a record with a fred frith / tom
cora sound.
--
Stefan Verstraeten

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Stephane Vuilleumier" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re:info on skeleton crew : Etymology
Date: 17 Sep 1998 13:59:41 +0200

Well

I have a copy.
The details of the tracks (95 tracks of 1-12 samples)
are in the discography.
Basically about a third each Frith (1-37), Skeleton Crew (38-54)and
Tom Cora (55-95).
If like me any Frith or Cora snippet of sound makes you stop
whatever you were doing because you recognize it (and like it)
then this is for you. I especially liked the Cora stuff which sounds
like a guide to all the kinds of sounds Tom got out of his cello.
A bit strange to listen through in one go because it's like
an encyclopedic digest guide to their "purified" sounds @10 seconds each mostly.
I like it because of the concentrated instant recognition effect.
Work on the sounds/ sound desig was done/produced by Tom Dimuzio BTW.
I suppose some people will love to sample it, which is why it was
actually made as far as I understand. It's also why it is quite
expensive (no copyright). There is a nonaudio sampling version of it
too for that purpose.

-----Original Message-----
<[e-mail]>


:Dear Listmembers,
:
:Since quite some time, something's very interesting is mentioned on the
:fred frith website. It is an album by Skeleton Crew, called Etymology.
:I was wondering if anyone on the list ownes this amazing cd.
:I know that Bill Laswell did a similar thing some time ago, but this
:skeleton crew album consists of new exlusive material (recorded in 1995
:by frith & cora), it's on rarefaction label (http://www.rarefaction.com)
:So, can someone -who ownes the cd- give some revieuws on it? What's on
:it, is it easy to use, does it contain frith solo samples - cora solo
:samples - duo samples - is it real time recorded or edited - ....
:The idea of the cd seems great: making a record with a fred frith / tom
:cora sound.



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: BJOERN <[e-mail]>
Subject: STOMP
Date: 17 Sep 1998 15:31:09 +0200 (MEST)

don't know if this is any list related but who cares....
a friend of mine told me about a performance of a group called STOMP she
saw in new york city.
she told me that they were doing all kinds of weird stuff by using diverse
kinds of tools on stage.
anyone can tell me anything about these guys???
are there any recordings out there???

BJOERN
www.cityinfonetz.de/uni/homepage/bjoern.eichstaedt


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "schwitterZ" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: STOMP
Date: 17 Sep 1998 06:33:09 -0700

They did a performance at the Emmy awards show televised this Sunday past in
sync with a pastiche of images culled from the last 50 years of American
television the best of which was STOMP stomping to footage of Spike Jones
honking, yelping, and clanging.

s~Z





-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Caleb Deupree <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: STOMP
Date: 17 Sep 1998 10:25:57 -0400

>>>>> "BJOERN" == BJOERN  <[e-mail]> writes:

    BJOERN> don't know if this is any list related but who cares....
    BJOERN> a friend of mine told me about a performance of a group
    BJOERN> called STOMP she saw in new york city.  she told me that
    BJOERN> they were doing all kinds of weird stuff by using diverse
    BJOERN> kinds of tools on stage.  anyone can tell me anything
    BJOERN> about these guys???  are there any recordings out there???

This is more on the lines of a Broadway dance show than a musical
group, which originated in Scotland.  There are several troupes that
tour various parts of the world, and each has maybe a dozen or more
players/dancers.  They use all kinds of junk to make very rhythmic
music, from brake drums, push brooms, trash bags, and matchboxes.  I
believe it is the policy of the original developers of the show that
it is intended always to be a live theatrical show only, so no
recordings are available or planned.

Stomp came to my town a couple of years ago, and I posted a favorable
review on the ambient list.  I was mildly flamed by some individuals
who thought that performers like Test Department and Zev had been
doing similar work before Stomp was around, and that Stomp was a
watered down, commercialized version of the same.

---
Caleb T. Deupree
;; Opinions...  funny thing about opinions, they can change.

Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers.
(Pablo Picasso)


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: STOMP
Date: 17 Sep 1998 11:44:41 -0300

They were stomping in Argentina, in a local theatre with great success,
but I don't think what they do deserve any recordings. I mean, they're
good doing their stuff on stage, but if you want percussion related
music I think you can get amazing cds beginning (for instance) with any
from Nana Vasconcelos.

-Hugo (knocking at the desk at work)

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: SUGAR in their vitamins? <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: STOMP
Date: 17 Sep 1998 08:59:30 -0700 (PDT)

On Thu, 17 Sep 1998, Caleb Deupree wrote:

> Stomp came to my town a couple of years ago, and I posted a favorable
> review on the ambient list.  I was mildly flamed by some individuals
> who thought that performers like Test Department and Zev had been
> doing similar work before Stomp was around, and that Stomp was a
> watered down, commercialized version of the same.

this is true, and i would add in
Einsturzende Neubauten as well.
all the same, Stomp are still
enjoyable to see, at least once.

hasta.

Yes.  Beautiful, wonderful nature.  Hear it sing to us: *snap*  Yes.  natURE.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dan Hewins <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: STOMP
Date: 17 Sep 1998 10:56:50 -0500

I saw Stomp in Boston a few years ago and enjoyed it.  However the thing
that struck me as strange is that for a group entirely centered on
percussion and rhythm they stuck to the 4/4 for the whole time.  Not once
did they even go 3/4!  I just thought that was strange.  Even the
mainstream audiences that go to see that sort of thing more often can
handle 3/4; they know waltzes.  Don't get me wrong though, I enjoyed it.
Someone (I can't remember who said it) was right when (s)he said that they
are more Broadway musical-ish than a music group.

Dan



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Brad Elsie" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: STOMP
Date: 17 Sep 1998 10:25:53 PDT



>From [e-mail] Thu Sep 17 06:32:17 1998
>Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 1.82 #1)
>    id 0zJe8v-0007Io-00; Thu, 17 Sep 1998 07:30:41 -0600
>Received: from (mx01.uni-tuebingen.de) [134.2.3.11] (root)
>    by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 1.82 #1)
>    id 0zJe8q-0007Ij-00; Thu, 17 Sep 1998 07:30:39 -0600
>Received: from linux41.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de
([e-mail] [134.2.18.41])
>    by mx01.uni-tuebingen.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA15259
>    for <[e-mail]>; Thu, 17 Sep 1998 15:30:27 +0200
>Received: from localhost (zxmqq16@localhost)
>    by linux41.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA20763
>    for <[e-mail]>; Thu, 17 Sep 1998 15:31:09 +0200
>X-Authentication-Warning: linux41.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de: zxmqq16 owned
process doing -bs
>Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 15:31:09 +0200 (MEST)
>From: BJOERN <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: STOMP
>Message-ID:
<[e-mail]>
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
>Sender: [e-mail]
>Precedence: bulk
>
>don't know if this is any list related but who cares....
>a friend of mine told me about a performance of a group called STOMP
she
>saw in new york city.
>she told me that they were doing all kinds of weird stuff by using
diverse
>kinds of tools on stage.
>anyone can tell me anything about these guys???
>are there any recordings out there???
>
>BJOERN
>www.cityinfonetz.de/uni/homepage/bjoern.eichstaedt
>
>I saw them perform in Toronto in 1994 and the show was terrific. A few
of the interesting "instruments" incorporated into the performance were:

- kitchen sinks full of water, pots and pans, hanging around their necks

- oil barrels with ski boots attached

- big reycling barrels

- an apparatus as wide as the stage and about 20 feet high. 2 members
were in harnesses and jumped up and down and pounded items like license
plates, garbage can lids and other objects with drum sticks

- zippo lighters (theatre was pitch black, members stood in a row and
would light them in patterns)

- one guy even jumped around on a pogo stick!

The have an official website at www.stomponline.com

Brad

>-
>
>


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Christian Heslop" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: STOMP
Date: 17 Sep 1998 10:58:52 -0700

>.  However the thing
> that struck me as strange is that for a group entirely centered on
> percussion and rhythm they stuck to the 4/4 for the whole time.  Not once
> did they even go 3/4!  I just thought that was strange.  Even the
> mainstream audiences that go to see that sort of thing more often can
> handle 3/4; they know waltzes.
    It's very strange but this always seems to be the case with these pop
"experiment" rhythm bands.I think it's putrid stuff. Just a lot of people
beating things in tight sequence with stupid fixed smiles on their
faces..doing little stick tosses and such...eeegghhh!


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Brent Burton <[e-mail]>
Subject: please stop
Date: 17 Sep 1998 13:58:27 -0400 (EDT)

> >don't know if this is any list related but who cares....
> >a friend of mine told me about a performance of a group called STOMP

i care.  i didn't sign up for the *zorn* list to read about broadway shows!

b

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Chris Barrett" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: please stop
Date: 17 Sep 1998 14:48:24 -0400

At 1:58 PM 9/17/98, Brent Burton wrote:
>> >don't know if this is any list related but who cares....
>> >a friend of mine told me about a performance of a group called STOMP
>
>i care.  i didn't sign up for the *zorn* list to read about broadway shows!
>
>b
>
>-

Christian Helsop wrote:
>        It's very strange but this always seems to be the case with these pop
> "experiment" rhythm bands.I think it's putrid stuff. Just a lot of people
> beating things in tight sequence with stupid fixed smiles on their
> faces..doing little stick tosses and such...eeegghhh!

Good to see the narrow-minded elitism still shows up on a list of
"open-minded people" dedicated to talking about experimental music.  I
guess the axiom "if its normal enough that people not on this list might
like it, then its trash and shouldn't be discussed" is still valid for many
folks.  Good Work!

-Chris



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "schwitterZ" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: please stop
Date: 17 Sep 1998 11:16:27 -0700

Why is it elitist to not like something and talk about not liking it?

s~Z




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: please stop
Date: 17 Sep 1998 11:51:15 -0700


    Chris,

On Thu, 17 Sep 1998 14:48:24 -0400  "Chris Barrett" wrote:
>
> Good to see the narrow-minded elitism still shows up on a list of
> "open-minded people" dedicated to talking about experimental music.  I
> guess the axiom "if its normal enough that people not on this list might
> like it, then its trash and shouldn't be discussed" is still valid for many
> folks.  Good Work!

You are missing the tragic dimension of the problem. If we do not do anything
against such posts (talking about somewhat mainstream music), we might end up
to talk on the Zorn list about people that our parents might enjoy!!! Aren't
you scared by such a possibility?

    Patrice :-).

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Chris Barre{t" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: please stop
Date: 17 Sep 1998 15:26:22 -0400

At 11:16 AM 9/17/98, schwitterZ wrote:
>Why is it elitist to not like something and talk about not liking it?
>
>s~Z
>

It's not the disliking it I have a problem with.  It's the manner in which
people say that they are offended that we should even talk about it at all
(unless, of course, Brent is tongue-in-cheek, in which case I am
over-reacting).  I just think that too often it seems like certain
communities in any of the arts (that is the avant-garde community or the
goth community or the punk community or the jazz community in music to keep
it relevant here)  have too much of a poo-poo attitude when discussing
works that don't fit people's certain definitions or category's (read the
comment about *broadway* shows.  Admittedly, I find very little or nothing
to like about today's broadway, but I did enjoy Stomp, and I thought Blue
Man Group was fantastic on many different levels, not the least  of which
was satire of the avante garde while being sorta avante garde at the same
time).

Basically I feel that, like it or hate it, things like pop (or broadway)
are vital if, for nothing else, than they give the more experimental
something to react to.  How can you tell if something is experimental
without a mainstream context?  I just hope that people don't feel that
liking experimental/avant garde music means disliking anything that isn't,
but sometimes it seems as some folks on this list do feel that way.

I like to think that people on this list have an unusually wide range of
musical likes, and comments like the  two I replied to in my previous post
sometimes make me wonder.  I guess it's only normal for people who are big
music fans/music obsessed (like myself) to be snobby about their tastes
(I've definitely been accused of that from time to time), but I just hope
that this discussion group is more open minded, not less, then the average
music listener.

Ok, enough ranting......

-Chris



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "schwitterZ" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: please continue
Date: 17 Sep 1998 11:57:53 -0700

I just think that too often it seems like certain posters have too much of a
poo-poo attitude when discussing other posters' musical attitudes that don't
fit their certain definitions or categories (eg., open mindedness).

Basically I feel that, like it or hate it, things like snobbery (or elitism)
are vital if, for nothing else, than they give the more open-minded
something to react to.  How can you tell if something is open-minded without
a snobby context?

I like to think that people on this list have an unusually wide range of
attitudes toward music...from snobby to open-minded...I say welcome them
all.

s~Z


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Coupla British composers
Date: 17 Sep 1998 12:56:27 -0700


On Mon, 14 Sep 1998 20:05:55 -0400  Brian Olewnick wrote:
>
> Has anyone heard the music of either Dave Smith or John White (not names

John White was fairly well documented on Eno's amazing label Obscure. Like
most of the Obsure catalogue, the music was avant and still listenable.

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Joseph S. Zitt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: please stop
Date: 17 Sep 1998 15:05:34 -0500 (CDT)

On Thu, 17 Sep 1998, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:

> You are missing the tragic dimension of the problem. If we do not do anything
> against such posts (talking about somewhat mainstream music), we might end up
> to talk on the Zorn list about people that our parents might enjoy!!! Aren't
> you scared by such a possibility?

I was *so* relieved when my father didn't care for Bar Kokhba. Still
escaping oldfartitude :-)

- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Taylor McLaren <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: please continue
Date: 17 Sep 1998 16:19:59 -0400


MEEP! schwitterZ wrote:
>I like to think that people on this list have an unusually wide range of
>attitudes toward music...from snobby to open-minded...I say welcome them
>all.
Ah, but haven't you heard? Open-minded is *good*, exclusive is *bad*.
  There are days when I think that magazines like The Wire should be shut
down immediately for trying to convince people that they can absorb the
whole of the world's music, or at least that Biba Kopf can make you feel
ignorant on a monthly basis. I think that those of us who put up with this
sort of foolishness need to get a whole lot more CDs for free so as to put
a stop to arguments like this.

-me



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "schwitterZ" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: please continue
Date: 17 Sep 1998 12:50:36 -0700

<<Ah, but haven't you heard? Open-minded is *good*, exclusive is *bad*.>>

It's very very GOOD to G!:

 Sunday, September 13, 1998
HOT PROPERTY
The Sax Man and the Sea
By RUTH RYON, Times Staff Writer

Grammy award-winning saxophonist and songwriter KENNY G and his wife, Lyndie
Benson, have purchased a home in Malibu for $12.5 million, sources say.
     The musician, who has sold more than 40 million albums worldwide and
has been hailed as the No. 1 instrumentalist ever on the music charts, is
known for such laid-back hits as "Songbird," "Silhouette" and "Sentimental."
          He and his wife bought a Cape Cod-style home with six bedrooms and
9 1/2 baths. The home, built in 1991, also has two guest houses, a gym, a
movie theater and six fireplaces on almost two acres. The asking price was
$14 million.
http://www.latimes.com./HOME/NEWS/REALEST/t000083284.1.html


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Chris Barre{t" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: please continue
Date: 17 Sep 1998 16:41:43 -0400


It's gotta be the hair.

At 12:50 PM 9/17/98, schwitterZ wrote:
><<Ah, but haven't you heard? Open-minded is *good*, exclusive is *bad*.>>
>
>It's very very GOOD to G!:
>
> Sunday, September 13, 1998
>HOT PROPERTY
>The Sax Man and the Sea
>By RUTH RYON, Times Staff Writer
>
>Grammy award-winning saxophonist and songwriter KENNY G and his wife, Lyndie
>Benson, have purchased a home in Malibu for $12.5 million, sources say.
>     The musician, who has sold more than 40 million albums worldwide and
>has been hailed as the No. 1 instrumentalist ever on the music charts, is
>known for such laid-back hits as "Songbird," "Silhouette" and "Sentimental."
>          He and his wife bought a Cape Cod-style home with six bedrooms and
>9 1/2 baths. The home, built in 1991, also has two guest houses, a gym, a
>movie theater and six fireplaces on almost two acres. The asking price was
>$14 million.
>http://www.latimes.com./HOME/NEWS/REALEST/t000083284.1.html
>
>
>-



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Christian Heslop" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: please stop
Date: 17 Sep 1998 14:50:59 -0700

Can you really honestly say that Stomp is experimental music?I couldn't,
but I also don't see that experimental music has the lock on "goodness".Why
are you so hateful?Apparently you must like Stomp and my dislike makes me
"narrow-minded"
I don't think I characterized Stomp as too normal for me.I think I
suggested that it was vacuous.I'm a "narrow-minded elitist" because I don't
care for this sort of thing?I think what you said speaks for itself to your
disparagement. I saw stomp on the emmys and on a few other little
entertainment industry award and "pat ourselves on the back shows".Aren't
they the ones who made the soda commercials as well? How can you swallow
this corporate, token "out-there" music pill that they hand you? Stomp is
for the "viewer-at-home" to marvel at their eccentricity and shake their
heads at their cute little crazy music.Even if Stomp takes themselves
seriously, that is what they were used as.I really think character
judgements are out of place on this discussion list. I would like to think
that we could have more respect for people we know to have real concerns
about music.
----------
> From: Chris Barrett <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: please stop
> Christian Helsop wrote:
> >        It's very strange but this always seems to be the case with
these pop
> > "experiment" rhythm bands.I think it's putrid stuff. Just a lot of
people
> > beating things in tight sequence with stupid fixed smiles on their
> > faces..doing little stick tosses and such...eeegghhh!
>
> Good to see the narrow-minded elitism still shows up on a list of
> "open-minded people" dedicated to talking about experimental music.  I
> guess the axiom "if its normal enough that people not on this list might
> like it, then its trash and shouldn't be discussed" is still valid for
many
> folks.  Good Work!
>
> -Chris
>
>
>
> -

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dan Hewins <[e-mail]>
Subject: Enjoy (Braxton) 1998
Date: 17 Sep 1998 17:28:11 -0500

I have been really enjoying Braxton's music lately and I thought I'd share
that with y'all.  In particular I have liked "Dortmund (Quartet) 1976,"
"Willisau (Quartet) 1991," and "Four Compositions (Quartet) 1995."  In
reading the liner notes of a couple of them I have learned of the existence
of "Performance (Quartet) 1979."  Does anyone have this?  How is it?  (I am
assuming it's good though...)  Is it in print?  If not, tapes?

Anyone know why he seems to avoid the Tenor Sax?

Dan



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: David Beardsley <[e-mail]>
Subject: Newband at World Financial Center
Date: 17 Sep 1998 18:28:20 -0400

November 9, 1998, 7:00 p.m. * * * FREE * * *

"The Last Laugh" by F.W. Murnau
35mm silent film (1924)
score by Dean Drummond (1996)
performed live by Newband incorporating
conventional instruments, Drummond's own inventions
& the Harry Partch instruments

Wintergarden @ the World Financial Center
200 Liberty Street
NYC, NY
All the way downtown: between the river and the World Trade Center

Part of the Sonic Boom festival
Presented by
the New York Consortium for New Music
and
Miller Theatre of Columbia University
http://www.pangea.ca/~nycnm/

Joe Monzo reviews The Last Laugh as performed by
Newband, March 14, 1998, The Kitchen, New York, N.Y.
http://www.virtulink.com/immp/jux/j_index.htm#newband2.htm

Newband: http://www.spyral.net/newband/

Harry Partch: http://corporeal.com/welcome.html


--
* D a v i d        B e a r d s l e y
*           [e-mail]
*
* J u x t a p o s i t i o n     E z i n e
* M E L A  v i r t u a l  d r e a m house monitor
*
* http://www.virtulink.com/immp/lookhere.htm



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Brian Olewnick <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Enjoy (Braxton) 1998
Date: 17 Sep 1998 19:25:36 -0400

Dan Hewins wrote:
> "Performance (Quartet) 1979."  Does anyone have this?  How is it?

I assume this is "Peformance 9/1/79" released by hat Hut (2R19), a live
date from Willisau with a quartet including Ray Anderson, John Lindberg
and Thurman Barker. Not sure whether it's been re-issued on disc, but
it's a typically fine representation of AB at the time.

> Anyone know why he seems to avoid the Tenor Sax?

I've seen him play it live on a few occasions, but the only recorded
example I can think of (there are probably others) is on the "Six
Compositions: Quartet" release on Antilles from 1981 w/A. Davis, Helias
and Blackwell. Guess he eschews the lower reed group unless they're WAY
low!

Brian Olewnick

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: please stop
Date: 17 Sep 1998 20:24:10 -0400 (EDT)

In terms of "people our parents might enjoy" you haven't seen all the
older folks kvelling when JZ et Masada(s) come out with some of his "hi
dee di" charts at functions liek Ashkanaz in Toornto.

Ken Waxman
[e-mail]


On Thu, 17 Sep 1998, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:


> >
> > Good to see the narrow-minded elitism stork!
>
> You are missing the tragic dimension of the problem. If we do not do anything
> against such posts (talking about somewhat mainstream music), we might end up
> to talk on the Zorn list about people that our parents might enjoy!!! Aren't
> you scared by such a possibility?
>
>     Patrice :-).
>
> -
>
>

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: please stop
Date: 17 Sep 1998 21:04:36 EDT

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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i don't know what all the clamour about the mainstream, and this fear of what
parents may like is all about. if it doesn't reach the mainstream at one time,
in one form or another, then the experiment has failed. not withstanding that,
i know of parents who do like zorn's work. there is a hebrew teacher in her
sixties who wants to come listen to my massada CDs based on the fact zorn is
addressing issues of judaica through music. elistism is grand in the ways it
binds like minded people, but when you start thinking that no one else can
"get" what you like; that what the rest of the world likes and what corporate
america sponsors is beneath you basedeven partially on that fact, you are in
way over your head.
cw

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In terms of "people our parents might enjoy" you haven't seen all the
older folks kvelling when JZ et Masada(s) come out with some of his "hi
dee di" charts at functions liek Ashkanaz in Toornto.

Ken Waxman
[e-mail]


On Thu, 17 Sep 1998, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:


> >
> > Good to see the narrow-minded elitism stork!
>
> You are missing the tragic dimension of the problem. If we do not do
anything
> against such posts (talking about somewhat mainstream music), we might end
up
> to talk on the Zorn list about people that our parents might enjoy!!! Aren't
> you scared by such a possibility?
>
>     Patrice :-).
>
> -
>
>

-


--part0_906080678_boundary--

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Don Byrd <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn List Digest V2 #461
Date: 17 Sep 1998 21:36:14 -0500



        Someone wrote:

>You are missing the tragic dimension of the problem. If we do not do anything
>against such posts (talking about somewhat mainstream music), we might end up
>to talk on the Zorn list about people that our parents might enjoy!!! Aren't
>you scared by such a possibility?

    hell's bells, I am your parents.  I started looking for weird sounding music
before most of you were born.  I was blown away by Coleman's Free Jazz (I was 16)
and some time thereafter I heard a little John Cage (very hard to get hold of that
time, especially in the boondocks where I lived), but now finding good weird music
is easy.You have net lists telling you all about it. There are entire stores
devoted to it. The difficulty is finding some thing on  radio that is really good;
this is a real test of one's taste.  Are you willing to pick some thing out of the
schlock and play it for your avant-garde friends. Surely there is something out
there worth listening too. The last time I tried this, some years ago, I found that
there was mebbe one thing in twenty-five on good country music stations that had
some true musical buzz... Are you interested in good music or are you interested in
chic?
or defining your identity with your taste?

    How do I make those cute smiley guys.

                db


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: john shiurba <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Enjoy (Braxton) 1998
Date: 17 Sep 1998 18:53:45 -0700

> > Anyone know why he seems to avoid the Tenor Sax?
>
> I've seen him play it live on a few occasions, but the only recorded
> example I can think of (there are probably others) is on the "Six
> Compositions: Quartet" release on Antilles from 1981 w/A. Davis, Helias
> and Blackwell. Guess he eschews the lower reed group unless they're WAY
> low!

there's the cd he recorded with Rova (The Aggregate) where he plays
contrabass, bass, baritone, tenor, alto, soprano, and sopranino saxes
all on the same piece!!
--



[e-mail]
http://www.sfo.com/~shiurba

I don't wake up for less than $10,000 a day.
(L. Evangelista)

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: stephen drury <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: any idea about this record?
Date: 17 Sep 1998 22:33:40 -0400

At 10:04 AM 9/17/98 -0600, you wrote:
>    Does anybody know the following record?
>*** - HELLO POP TART: Tomoko Mukaiyama
>  Plays Cowell to Zorn.
>
>  Tomoko Mukaiyama: keyboards.
>
>    1998 (?) - BVHaast (Holland), BVH 9801 (CD)
>    Patrice.
>
The Zorn piece is fragment XIV from "Sebastapol" (an unrecorded game piece),
later retitled "Dead Ringer".  It's about 2 minutes long.  Tomoko's an
excellent pianist who made a film with Louis Andriessen and has been playing
with Rzewski lately (and studied with me for a summer).  The CD also
includes my edition of Charles Ives' "Celestial Railroad".
Has anybody seen/heard Steffen Schleiermacher's recording of "Carny"?
--- steve


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dan Given <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: stuff our parents might enjoy
Date: 17 Sep 1998 22:45:48 -0400

>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 20:24:10 -0400 (EDT)
>From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Re: please stop
>
>In terms of "people our parents might enjoy" you haven't seen all the
>older folks kvelling when JZ et Masada(s) come out with some of his "hi
>dee di" charts at functions liek Ashkanaz in Toornto.
>
>Ken Waxman
>[e-mail]

I was at one of the late shows at the last Ashkenaz fest (the Bar Kochba
performances), and was in the washroom before going into the hall.  There
were some of these older folk discussing how awful it had been, how it
wasn't Jewish - the theme of the festival- etc.  The only one of them who
wasn't disappointed with the show said he had gone not expecting to like it
anyway, so he wasn't disappointed.  I really felt like asking him why he
went, if he didn't think he would like it, but decided it probably wasn't
worth my time.

Dan


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dan Given <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re:Braxton
Date: 17 Sep 1998 22:47:54 -0400

>Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 19:25:36 -0400
>From: Brian Olewnick <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Re: Enjoy (Braxton) 1998
>
>Dan Hewins wrote:
>> "Performance (Quartet) 1979."  Does anyone have this?  How is it?
>
>I assume this is "Peformance 9/1/79" released by hat Hut (2R19), a live
>date from Willisau with a quartet including Ray Anderson, John Lindberg
>and Thurman Barker. Not sure whether it's been re-issued on disc, but
>it's a typically fine representation of AB at the time.

It was issued on CD as Hat 6044.  Not currently listed in Cadence, so
probably hit and miss as to whether you will find it.

In terms of the mid-low horns (i.e tenor), just what is a C-Melody. Braxton
played it on the 7 Comp. Trio 1989 disc, some others do also (Paul Dunmall
for instance)

Dan


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Matthew Ross Davis <[e-mail]>
Subject: UMD Stockhausen Concert on Saturday, Sept 19
Date: 17 Sep 1998 23:06:17 -0500

I apologize for the inevidible cross-posting, but I wanted to invite
everyone to come out for an evening of astrological exploration and
intuitive music at the final concert of comma:summer::new:music...

    ==================================================
    Masses of Time, Cycles of Light: Stockhausen at 70
    ==================================================

        Saturday, September 19, 7:00 PM, FREE
        Art/Sociology Building, Main Atrium
        University of Maryland
        College Park, MD 20742

Celebrating the 70th birthday year of one of the century's most important
composers and innovators. Featuring "Tierkreis" and 'intuitive music'
pieces from "Aus den Sieben Tagen" and "Fuer Kommende Zeiten". Performers
include Dawn Culbertson, Matthew Ross Davis, Linh Kauffman, Kathleen Light,
Caroline Smith, and Joe Zitt in various and sundry arrangements and
instrumentations including synthesizer, trumpet, voices, double-reeds,
violins, lutes, percussion and recorders.

It's an atmosphere of listening and wandering, so feel free to come and
relax for the evening, experience the sounds, live in the music.

More information is available at http://artswire.org/comma/csnm or email me
at [e-mail], or call 301-891-2855.


| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | m - a - t - t - h - e - w | r - o - s - s | d - a - v - i - s | |
| | http://www.artswire.org/mrd | | | | | | | UMD school of music | |
| | m-e-t-a-t-r-o-n p-r-e-s-s | | | http://www.artswire.org/comma | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: please stop: solution
Date: 17 Sep 1998 22:59:38 EDT

here's a suggestion....if you are going to post a question or comment that is
pretty much un-related to the zorn list, but you feel that there may be some
people on the list with some useful information on the subject.....ASK FOR
PRIVATE RESPONSES.

thanks

jt

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Scott Handley" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Enjoy (Braxton) 1998
Date: 17 Sep 1998 20:50:03 PDT


>
>Anyone know why he seems to avoid the Tenor Sax?
>
>Dan
>

PERFORMANCE 1979 is outta print.  But Cadence's C.R.O.S. could probably
find it brand new for ya.  It's GREAT.  One of the few Braxtons to
absolutely have.

Brax plays a mean stutter-solo on tenor on the double-CD concert disc
QUARTET (LONDON) 1985.  That's the one that comes to mind.  Two albums I
really really like are QUARTET (VICTORIAVILLE) 1991 and QUARTET (SANTA
CRUZ) 1993 (which suffers from occasionally poor recording, but not too
bad).

Just another 2-cents.

--s


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Circle9 <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Masada Soundtrack
Date: 18 Sep 1998 01:15:55 -0400

That would be the soundtrack to the made-for-TV miniseries "Masada"-
which was aired in the early 80s, not 1970. Must have been some mistake
on the date. Totally unconnected with JZ in any way shape or form. The
film is just a dramatization of the incident in Jewish history that Zorn
happened to name his band after. And when I saw it back in 80-81, I
personally thought it was a piece of crap. (But then name me a made for
TV movie from 1980 on that wasn't...). Certainly a low point in Peter
O'Toole's career.

    -SG


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Sibree/Wilkes)
Subject: Re: stuff our parents might enjoy
Date: 18 Sep 1998 17:14:07 +0800

>>------------------------------
>>
>>Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 20:24:10 -0400 (EDT)
>>From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
>>Subject: Re: please stop
>>
>>In terms of "people our parents might enjoy" you haven't seen all the
>>older folks kvelling when JZ et Masada(s) come out with some of his "hi
>>dee di" charts at functions liek Ashkanaz in Toornto.
>>
>>Ken Waxman
>>[e-mail]
>
>I was at one of the late shows at the last Ashkenaz fest (the Bar Kochba
>performances), and was in the washroom before going into the hall.  There
>were some of these older folk discussing how awful it had been, how it
>wasn't Jewish - the theme of the festival- etc.  The only one of them who
>wasn't disappointed with the show said he had gone not expecting to like it
>anyway, so he wasn't disappointed.  I really felt like asking him why he
>went, if he didn't think he would like it, but decided it probably wasn't
>worth my time.
>
>Dan

As a 54 year old long time 'fan' of Zorn we are not all like that. Maybe
they didn't know before they went what they might be faced with. I suspect
that the majority of your peers might not think like you. There is a fine
line between knowingness and self righteousness, and Zorn's music ranges
far and excludes little.
Billy



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: BJOERN <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: please stop
Date: 18 Sep 1998 12:19:57 +0200 (MEST)

> > >don't know if this is any list related but who cares....
> > >a friend of mine told me about a performance of a group called STOMP
>
> i care.  i didn't sign up for the *zorn* list to read about broadway shows!

i am VERY ( *g* ) sorry for asking this question BUT I DIDNT KNOW WHAT
THIS GROUP CALLED STOMP was all about since i only heard from a friend of
mine who is NOT INTO AVANT music that they are very good so i thought
about asking about them

SORRY SORRY SORRY

BJOERN
ps: not everyone on this list knows all the stuff that is played on
broadway..u know


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: BJOERN <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: please stop: solution
Date: 18 Sep 1998 12:38:41 +0200 (MEST)

> here's a suggestion....if you are going to post a question or comment that is
> pretty much un-related to the zorn list, but you feel that there may be some
> people on the list with some useful information on the subject.....ASK FOR
> PRIVATE RESPONSES.

how clever...so again:
i was told that they are from new york and that they do pretty "weird"
stuff with dustbins etc.
since i am not from the US but from GERMANY i have never heard of this
group called STOMP before.
the person that told me about them is not into avantgarde and experimental
music at all so i MIGHT HAVE guessed that STOMP are probably not THAT
weird...anyways what she told me about them sounded more like MERZBOW than
like BROADWAY.....

anyone who knew about them and responded to the question KNEW what they
are like and could have responded privately....
i didnt know that....

anyways whatever one does on this list...it`s wrong
i remember when i asked this question about the all-time top 20 records
(some of u might remember) and asked for private responses (since this was
not that much list-related in my opinion) alot of people shouted for
responses to the list....

oh well sometimes i dont understand this list.....   : )


BJOERN
www.cityinfonetz.de/uni/homepage/bjoern.eichstaedt


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Matthew Ross Davis <[e-mail]>
Subject: Stomp's indebtedness
Date: 18 Sep 1998 07:44:57 -0400 (EDT)

One thing to remember about STOMP, if this makes anyone feel any better
(regarding it's relative relation to all things Zorn), is that they
wouldn't exist if Cage and similar composers hadn't been experimenting
with kitchen utinsils and everyday objects for making sound - I see STOMP
as a direct descendant of Cage's line of thought, they're just using it in
a more 'mainstream' idiom.

| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | m - a - t - t - h - e - w | r - o - s - s | d - a - v - i - s | |
| | http://www.artswire.org/mrd | | | | | | | UMD school of music | |
| | m-e-t-a-t-r-o-n p-r-e-s-s | | | http://www.artswire.org/comma | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Marks, Andy" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Off topic, Squarepusher
Date: 18 Sep 1998 06:35:49 -0500

In the interest of keeping on topic, I have another off topic post. :-)

I've finally decided to check out Squarepusher. I've narrowed my
first purchase down to "Hard Normal Daddy" or "Feed Me Weird Things".
Could i get some recommendations/descriptions of these

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Issues from Zorn List Digest V2 #461
Date: 18 Sep 1998 08:05:47 -0400




Re: Stomp
FWIW, there's a Stomp track on  "Orbitones, Spoon Harps and Bellowphones"
CD, a sequel to "Gravikords, Whirlies and Pyrophones" on Ellipsis Arts
(just reissued in smaller format).  Each release consists of a nicely done
96 page book and CD introducing various instrument builders and their
creations.  Tom Waits, ZGA, Lou Harrison, John Cage and others are
represented on Orbitones.  I have not listened to it yet so I cannot judge
whether Stomp are truly avant garde and worthy of our attention but I
thought I'd mention it.  Stomp have not released any CDs to date.

Re: Braxton
Yes, the 1979 quartet recording was issued on CD by hat ART, but it's out
of print and probably hard to find, since it's a great one.  Good question
about his avoidance of tenor.  I hadn't realized it before.

Re: The Bribe
Gad, another huge chunk of Primo Zorn.  How much more of this stuff is
there?

Re: Patrice's comment about whether our parents like what we listen to
In my house, it's my kids who think my musical tastes are weird.

I also wanted to add that I am listening to Ribot's "Cubanos" and
Kaiser/Smith's "Yo! Miles" constantly.  Best single-day's purchase in
months for me.  The 30+ minute Jack Johnson medley is awe inspiring.

Glenn



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Patrick Ivan Jenkins <[e-mail]>
Subject: masada 10
Date: 18 Sep 1998 09:16:45 -0400 (EDT)

Dear Zorn Listers,

     I'd be interested in hearing responses to Masada 10. Does anyone
have a copy yet? What's it like?

     Thanks.

Yours truly,
Patrick




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Tim Schelfhout" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Hail Off topic
Date: 18 Sep 1998 06:55:50 PDT

I must say that The one thing I REALLY like about this list are the off
topic topics.
For those of you who like/love/hate X legged sally a load of info at the
following (although it is outdated) site :

www.reference.be/xls

Enjoy and keep the off-topics alive.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:    William York <[e-mail]>
Subject: Masada
Date: 18 Sep 1998 10:06:53 -0400 (EDT)

> In terms of "people our parents might enjoy" you haven't seen all the
> older folks kvelling when JZ et Masada(s) come out with some of his "hi
> dee di" charts at functions liek Ashkanaz in Toornto.
>
> Ken Waxman

Could you explain this?  Recently in Cadence there was a negative review
of Masada 9 which said it was basically cheap exotica or something and
compared it to Herb Alpert's Tijuana Brass.  I think a lot of the Masada
stuff has a sense of humor to it and I don't really understand these sorts
of criticisms (as in, "this is Jazz" or "this is Jewish music" and it must
obey certain rules...).

No offense meant by this-

WY


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Caleb Deupree <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Masada
Date: 18 Sep 1998 10:42:25 -0400

>>>>> "William" == William York <[e-mail]> writes:

    William> Could you explain this?  Recently in Cadence there was a
    William> negative review of Masada 9 which said it was basically
    William> cheap exotica or something and compared it to Herb
    William> Alpert's Tijuana Brass.  I think a lot of the Masada
    William> stuff has a sense of humor to it and I don't really
    William> understand these sorts of criticisms (as in, "this is
    William> Jazz" or "this is Jewish music" and it must obey certain
    William> rules...).

Part of the consequences of genre busting, as practiced by JZ and
similar artists, is that people don't quite know how to categorize the
new works and become more reactionary in maintaining the boundaries of
the old genres.  IMHO, Cadence has an especially strong stance toward
the boundaries of jazz as they were defined 30 years ago or so.  For
example, they have generally negative reviews for anything that smacks
of rock (note how many of their reviews dismiss the music because of
rock drumming or guitar), and this often extends to anything which
doesn't fit into bop or post-bop.  JZ projects like Naked City have
shown that he doesn't respect boundaries at all (except perhaps as
targets), and it is therefore easy to exclude his work from the narrow
jazz categories, despite the fact that it is very creative and often
improvised.

I don't mean this as a slam against Cadence.  I've been a subscriber
for years, and they provide a great service both for distribution and
reviews of truly obscure but interesting artists.  They just aren't a
good source for information or positive remarks for music outside the
jazz boundaries, which is the music most often discussed on this list.

---
Caleb T. Deupree
;; Opinions...  funny thing about opinions, they can change.

Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers.
(Pablo Picasso)


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tom Benton <[e-mail]>
Subject: re: Masada
Date: 18 Sep 1998 10:01:19 -0500 (CDT)

William York was saying...

>
>Could you explain this?  Recently in Cadence there was a negative review
>of Masada 9 which said it was basically cheap exotica or something and
>compared it to Herb Alpert's Tijuana Brass.  I think a lot of the Masada
>stuff has a sense of humor to it and I don't really understand these
>sorts of criticisms (as in, "this is Jazz" or "this is Jewish music" and
>it must obey certain rules...).
>

I saw that review...what a joke.  You know those people who love to listen
to themselves talk?  Well, I think this is a clear case of somebody who
likes to watch themselves type.  He could have writted the 1st 3/4 of it
without even listening to the album; I'm not sure if name dropping Morton
Feldman is supposed to impress anybody or what, but it doesn't.  I
started a kind of angry letter to Cadence (not b/c he knocked an album by
JZ, I haven't even heard it - just cause they printed such a piece of
bilge), I think I just may finish it up today.

I don't know what the moral of this whole story is, other than I wouldn't
take any of the criticism listed above as serious.  you're right
though, this certainly isn't the 1st time this criticism has come up.  I
frankly think it's idiotic.  Can you imagine taking Masada 10 back to the
store you got it from - "I'd like to return this, please.  It's a good
jazz album, but not as Radically Jewish as was advertised."


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: BJOERN <[e-mail]>
Subject: avant snobs eat shit  : )
Date: 18 Sep 1998 17:04:25 +0200 (MEST)

well,
since i got more than one positive response to my last two mails saying
SORRY SORRY SORRY for asking about stomp i feel as if there is no use to
send this mail...anyways i'll do it...

i was just thinking about some stuff that was said about mainstream etc.

shouldn't we as the experimental/avant fraction be the more open minded
ones???
i mean i understand when someone who thinks that bon jovi is the coolest
thing on earth doesnt get into merzbow.
but i do not really understand someone who is into zorn who thinks that
MAINSTREAM topics should not be discussed.
i always felt that this list is a list of experts in music and i always
liked the freedom of asking anything i wanted to.......
no matter if it was about the coolest r'n'b records or the best coltrane
records (funny enough that noone mentioned that coltrane is off-topic as
well....at least i cannot see what he has to do with zorn and the downtown
scene)
in my opinion zorn is one of the musicians who took alot of influences
from mainstream music.
i mean listen to tracks like SPILLANE. so much mainstream stuff is used in
that collage piece.
and remember the GREAT JEWISH MUSIC series.
my father (haha yeah we don't want to talk about music that our dads would
like) who is only 4 years older than Zorn didnt listen to BACHARCH in the
late 60s because he thought that it was too MAINSTREAM...what a shame-----

about that "not-being-open-minded-for-good-music-in-general-don't-care-if-
it's-mainstream-or-not" - attitude:

think about Zorn in his creative years -.....(haha someone will kill me
for that)...
when NAKED CITY played songs like JAZZ SNOB EAT SHIT i don't think that
song titles like that were only used to shock the audience (that was
mainly a jazz audience at that point of time). i think zorn wanted to say
that a jazz guy should be open minded for anythink...like an avantgarde
fan should be open minded for anything.
if zorn had written that piece in 1998 he would have called it AVANTGRADE
SNOB EAT SHIT...i'm sure.

oh well and yes MARC BOLAN was not mainstream at all-....

just my shit....
if u dont wanna read it...............press the DELETE button


BJOERN
www.cityinfonetz.de/uni/homepage/bjoern.eichstaedt


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "john clasen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: stomp
Date: 18 Sep 1998 08:05:56 PDT

8 posts about "Stomp" vs. 18 posts about "stop stomp"
This demonstrates the uselessness about complaining for some thread
someone doesn`t "like".
If Mr.Burton wouldn`t have complained this discussion would have ended
sooner.Same happened in the past with other themes.
Be more broad-minded!!

Jo

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Brent Burton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: stomp
Date: 18 Sep 1998 11:17:10 -0400 (EDT)

nOn Fri, 18 Sep 1998, john clasen wrote:

> If Mr.Burton wouldn`t have complained this discussion would have ended
> sooner.Same happened in the past with other themes.
> Be more broad-minded!!

what a load of crap.  i'm fine with 200 messages about bill laswell (whom
i don't like one bit), because he is an artist who is tangential to john
zorn.  stomp sucks and doesn't have anything to do with john zorn.  can
we talk about cats now?  or maybe jewel's new book of poetry?

b

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Benito Vergara" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: please stop: solution
Date: 18 Sep 1998 08:16:37 -0700

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail]
> [mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of BJOERN
> Sent: Friday, September 18, 1998 3:39 AM

> i remember when i asked this question about the all-time top 20 records
> (some of u might remember) and asked for private responses (since this was
> not that much list-related in my opinion) alot of people shouted for
> responses to the list....

Oh, so that was you! Actually that was one of the most memorable and
informative threads I've ever seen on this list, especially to a relative
newbie like me. So don't worry -- this STOMP thread is mutating pretty
interestingly anyhow...

Later,
Ben

http://www.bigfoot.com/~bvergara/
ICQ# 12832406


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "schwitterZ" <[e-mail]>
Subject: I'm Getting Dizzy!
Date: 18 Sep 1998 07:52:20 -0700

Why do the people who say they are open-minded get so much in a huff when
people disagree with them?

gees~Z



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: David Keffer <[e-mail]>
Subject: "Orbitones, Spoon Harps and Bellowphones"
Date: 18 Sep 1998 11:33:51 -0400


>From: [e-mail]
>"Orbitones, Spoon Harps and Bellowphones"
>CD, a sequel to "Gravikords, Whirlies and Pyrophones" on Ellipsis Arts
>(just reissued in smaller format).  Each release consists of a nicely done
>96 page book and CD introducing various instrument builders and their
>creations.  Tom Waits, ZGA, Lou Harrison, John Cage and others are
>represented on Orbitones.

Wow, it's good to hear that there is a sequel to "Gravikords, Whirlies and
Pyrophones".  That first book/cd set is a top-class production.  The idea
of a sampler of experimental instruments accompanied by in-depth descriptions
of the instruments, commentary from the creators, and nice pictures of the
instruments is an interesting niche that (as far as I know) only Ellipsis
Arts is filling.  (Are there others?)
The "Gravikords, Whirlies and Pyrophones" cd is fantastic,
including names known to the Zorn list, like Hans Reichel on his daxophone
(and I should add that the daxophone piece "Le Bal" is a good example
of the music that fills Reichel's all-dax operetta on FMP, "Shanghaied on
Tor Road"), and Ken Butler on his guitar devices, to a bunch of unknowns
(to me) who were almost all delightful,
as well as some historical experimental instruments, like the theremin.
I will be checking out "Orbitones, Spoon Harps and Bellowphones".
Thanks for the info.

David K.



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "schwitterZ" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: please stop: solution
Date: 18 Sep 1998 08:01:56 -0700

<<Oh, so that was you! Actually that was one of the most memorable and
informative threads I've ever seen on this list>>

Amen to that. I still refer to those lists when looking for new things to
buy.

s~Z


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:    jascha <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Off topic, Squarepusher
Date: 18 Sep 1998 11:34:53 -0400 (EDT)

> In the interest of keeping on topic, I have another off topic post. :-)
>
> I've finally decided to check out Squarepusher. I've narrowed my
> first purchase down to "Hard Normal Daddy" or "Feed Me Weird Things".
> Could i get some recommendations/descriptions of these

I would go for 'feed me weird things'.

The PORT RHOMBUS single is also really really good.

-jascha


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Stomp
Date: 18 Sep 1998 11:35:11 EDT

In a message dated 98-09-18 11:22:43 EDT, [e-mail] (Brent Burton)
writes:

<< what a load of crap.  i'm fine with 200 messages about bill laswell (whom
 i don't like one bit), because he is an artist who is tangential to john
 zorn.  stomp sucks and doesn't have anything to do with john zorn.  can
 we talk about cats now?  or maybe jewel's new book of poetry?
  >>

I'm a big fan of Bill Laswell, and like much of his work quite a bit. I've
seen Stomp live and absolutely loved it. Bought their t-shirt too. I have
loads of Zorn discs, although I can't say I understand everything he does. I
can't stand cats, and I'm allregic to them anyway. And I don't know dick about
Jewel, and don't care to. The point? Its all relevant, and I don't see any
reason why any of this couldn't be discussed here. I think its really kind of
pathetic that some list-ers get so flamed about ANY of the threads this list
takes. You have a delete key. Use it.

Dale.

NP: Wayne Horvitz - 4 + 1 Ensemble


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: BJOERN <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Off topic, Squarepusher
Date: 18 Sep 1998 17:41:01 +0200 (MEST)

> In the interest of keeping on topic, I have another off topic post. :-)
>
> I've finally decided to check out Squarepusher. I've narrowed my
> first purchase down to "Hard Normal Daddy" or "Feed Me Weird Things".
> Could i get some recommendations/descriptions of these

feed me weird things is definitely Tom Jenkinson's best record to date.
also the Burning'n'tree compilation of the stuff he did before FEED ME is
pretty good.
hard normal daddy is the jazziest one although i think that it is
sometimes quite lame.
the PORT RHOMBUS ep is his best ep in my opinion...
i couldnt get into BIG LOADA though

BJOERN
www.cityinfonetz.de/uni/homepage/bjoern.eichstaedt


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:    jascha <[e-mail]>
Subject: masada 8, 9, 10
Date: 18 Sep 1998 11:43:31 -0400 (EDT)


I've got the first 7 masadas.  To me, 5, 6 and 7 sound different than 1,
2, and 3 - mainly in the greater tendency towards the 'jazz' side of the
klezmer/jazz thing.  6 is especially different.

So i was wonering if the next batch of three - 8, 9, 10 - are different
again from the previous two (plus number 4...).  Any opinions?

-jascha


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Tosh)
Subject: Re: avant snobs eat shit  : )
Date: 18 Sep 1998 08:41:55 -0700 (PDT)

>The great thing about this list is that it does go off-subject time to
>time.  John Zorn is a big subject, and where that subject may go or not go
>should be mentioned on the list.  Whatever it is STOMP or isn't Stomp.  So
>keep rockin' Bjoern!

-----------------
Tosh Berman
TamTam Books
----------------



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Eric Saidel <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Masada
Date: 18 Sep 1998 10:43:41 -0500

I'm not sure if I should respond to this, but here I go anyway.


Tom Benton wrote:

> William York was saying...
>
> >
> >Could you explain this?  Recently in Cadence there was a negative review
> >of Masada 9 which said it was basically cheap exotica or something and
> >compared it to Herb Alpert's Tijuana Brass.  I think a lot of the Masada
> >stuff has a sense of humor to it and I don't really understand these
> >sorts of criticisms (as in, "this is Jazz" or "this is Jewish music" and
> >it must obey certain rules...).
> >
>

I don't have the review in front of me, so I can't comment on specifics, but I
did read it, and I found it interesting.  Remember, you don't have to agree
with a review.  That's not the point of reviews.

My sense is that the reviewer (I don't remember who it was right now) didn't
think that the music played in Masada went beyond cheap exotica.  That's a
fair opinion.  Not one I happen to agree with, but that's okay with me.

Here's what Tom has to say:

> I saw that review...what a joke.  You know those people who love to listen
> to themselves talk?  Well, I think this is a clear case of somebody who
> likes to watch themselves type.  He could have writted the 1st 3/4 of it
> without even listening to the album; I'm not sure if name dropping Morton
> Feldman is supposed to impress anybody or what, but it doesn't.

Yeah, he could have written a lot of it without listening to the album.  I
don't like doing this, but I'm not sure if this is a bad thing.  Part of the
point of a review is to put music in a context (and put the reviewer's
opinions in a context so that they are more easily judged).  That's what I
think he was doing.


> I
> started a kind of angry letter to Cadence (not b/c he knocked an album by
> JZ, I haven't even heard it - just cause they printed such a piece of
> bilge), I think I just may finish it up today.

Well, what would you have had them do?  Reject the review because they don't
agree with his opinions or his approach?  That's not Cadence's policy.  They
print the reviews as opinions of their reviewers.  I am sure there are plenty
of reviews in Cadence that make Bob Rusch cringe - because he disagrees with
the point of view, or he doesn't like the style.  Frankly, I prefer the open
editorial policy that they maintain.  Once reviews are canned for reasons like
this, it's a short step to canning them for having the wrong opinion about the
cds.

(Besides, can you really say that it's the "bilge" and not the opinion that
got you upset.  If the reviewer had gone on and on about the relationship to
"Jewish" music and Jazz and the academy, etc., and then ended with a glowing
endorsement of this disc and Zorn's Masada project, would you really be this
upset?)


>
>
> I don't know what the moral of this whole story is, other than I wouldn't
> take any of the criticism listed above as serious.  you're right
> though, this certainly isn't the 1st time this criticism has come up.  I
> frankly think it's idiotic.  Can you imagine taking Masada 10 back to the
> store you got it from - "I'd like to return this, please.  It's a good
> jazz album, but not as Radically Jewish as was advertised."

Ah, but this is an unfair criticism of a review.  The point of the review
isn't that the disc should be returned, but that the buyer should have a
better idea of what s/he is buying.  In that context it's completely fair to
point out that the music is not as advertised.

- eric



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Tosh)
Subject: Marc Bolan
Date: 18 Sep 1998 08:45:18 -0700 (PDT)

Tower just received the new Zorn/Marc Bolan collection.  I remembered one
person on the list thought it was so-so.  May I have other opinions?

-----------------
Tosh Berman
TamTam Books
----------------



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re[2]: please stop: solution
Date: 18 Sep 1998 11:31:29 -0500


     Ben wrote:

>Oh, so that was you! Actually that was one of the most memorable and
>informative threads I've ever seen on this list, especially to a relative
>newbie like me. So don't worry -- this STOMP thread is mutating pretty
>interestingly anyhow...

     Ben makes the pertinent point here, I think: that threads with
     inauspicious beginnings (and, personally, I have less than no interest
     in Stomp) can branch in almost fractal fashion into potentially
     fascinating territories, such as high art/mainstream boundaries, that
     were never, presumably, envisioned by the initial poster.

     Brian Olewnick




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: BJOERN <[e-mail]>
Subject: OFF TOPIC: motown books
Date: 18 Sep 1998 17:51:11 +0200 (MEST)

i just surfed the net for a book about MOTOWN...
i found these:

1.Early, Gerald: one nation under a groove: motown and american culture

2.George, Nelson: where did our love go?: the rise and fall of the motown
                sound

3.Gordy, Berry: to be loved: the music, the magic, the memories of motown

4.marsh, dave: women of motown: an oral history

5.motown anthology


does any of u guys own one of these....and can anyone of these tell me
which one is good????

thanks

all others please press release..send answers PRIVATELY (off topic!!!!!)

BJOERN


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "john clasen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: stomp
Date: 18 Sep 1998 08:57:54 PDT



>
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: stomp
>In-Reply-To: <[e-mail]>
>Message-ID:
<[e-mail]>
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
>Sender: [e-mail]
>Precedence: bulk

>what a load of crap.  i'm fine with 200 messages about bill laswell
(whom
>i don't like one bit), because he is an artist who is tangential to
john
>zorn.  stomp sucks and doesn't have anything to do with john zorn.  can
>we talk about cats now?

Does your cat mew as Zorn`s alto ?


<Oh, so that was you! Actually that was one of the most memorable and
informative threads I've ever seen on this list>>

I Remember the "owner" of the list trying to stop ( or stopping)this
thread.
JO




______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dan Hewins <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: avant snobs eat shit  : )
Date: 18 Sep 1998 10:56:05 -0500

>if u dont wanna read it...............press the DELETE button

I agree.  The subject line of a message often describes the subject of the
message contained.  When there was a lot of talk about Tony Conrad in the
past month I wasn't all that interested but I didn't ask anyone to stop
talking about it.  I just hit delete and that was that.  I don't see this
forum as a strictly Zorn and directly related one, I like to think that
it's a place for people who like Zorn and music that's related to talk
about music.  (I'll admit I haven't read the list charter, if there is
one.)  Part of what I like is that I can ask for Ground Zero
recommendations if I wanted to and get a bunch of responses.

Dan



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dan Hewins <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re:Braxton
Date: 18 Sep 1998 11:01:46 -0500

>In terms of the mid-low horns (i.e tenor), just what is a C-Melody. Braxton
>played it on the 7 Comp. Trio 1989 disc, some others do also (Paul Dunmall
>for instance)

A C Melody sax is a sax that hardly ever gets used.  For some reason I
remember reading about it as being "not a real" sax, whatever that means.
It's closest to a tenor, I think.  Tenors are in Bb and Altos are in Eb.
Maybe the C Melody is particularly easy to play.  I don't know why it
doesn't get used all that often.

Dan



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Spirer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: stomp
Date: 18 Sep 1998 09:01:53 -0700

At 11:17 AM 9/18/98 -0400, Brent Burton wrote:

>we talk about cats now?  or maybe jewel's new book of poetry?

I don't want to sound ignorant, but who is jewel?


Jeff Spirer
B&W Photos: http://www.pomegranates.com/frame/spirer/
Color and B&W Photos: http://www.hyperreal.org/~jeffs/gallery.html
Axiom/Material: http://www.hyperreal.org/axiom/

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Marc Bolan
Date: 18 Sep 1998 09:06:50 -0700


On Fri, 18 Sep 1998 08:45:18 -0700 (PDT)  Tosh wrote:
>
> Tower just received the new Zorn/Marc Bolan collection.  I remembered one
> person on the list thought it was so-so.  May I have other opinions?

I have been listening to it 4/5 times and I am not really impressed.

Marc Bolan's music is rock and exhibits a high impact/technique ratio.
Very few "downtowners" have what I think is a rock sensitivity (even
those, like Cochrane, who really try hard to rock but always (IMHO)
miss the target). At this moment, the covers by Arto Lindsay and
Mike Patton are the only ones that I wait eagerly when playing the
record.

Result? Everybody is doing what there are good at and the material they
build on seems to be of little importance (could almost have been
anybody else).

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: BJOERN <[e-mail]>
Subject: Aporias requia, the bribe, ganryu island
Date: 18 Sep 1998 18:17:59 +0200 (MEST)

well,
maybe i missed the reviews for these CDs...
if not maybe someone should send em .. hmmm??

BJOERN


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "schwitterZ" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: avant snobs eat shit  : )
Date: 18 Sep 1998 08:52:41 -0700

(I'll admit I haven't read the list charter, if there is
one.)

There is a list charter, and it is the best list charter I've seen on any
list. I've sent copies of it to other lists. If everyone followed the
suggestions on the charter, it'd clean up the communications considerably.

And, like it or not, it explicitly states that this list is for discussing
music directly connected to Zorn. The list owner is usually not heavy-handed
about enforcing it though.

s~Z


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Theo Klaase)
Subject: Fwd: [CV2] Fantomas "Chariot Choogle"
Date: 18 Sep 1998 11:31:41 -0500 (CDT)


--WebTV-Mail-873994043-407
Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit

FANTOMAS COVERS MARC BOLAN.  BELOW IS A SOUND CLIP.


-Theo


--WebTV-Mail-873994043-407
Content-Disposition: Inline
Content-Type: Message/RFC822
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit

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    with ESMTP id OAA03560; Thu, 17 Sep 1998 14:48:08 -0700 (PDT)
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ok, i don't know that much about recording files, but i did my best.

http://members.aol.com/iiicujoiii/fantomas_cc.wav
42 second sample - 938,870 bytes
Fantomas
"Chariot Choogle"    1:51
Marc Bolan - Great Jewish Music
Track 7 - arr. by Fantomas/Mike Patton
Voice, All Instruments MIKE PATTON

enjoy

To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to
"[e-mail]" with the message "unsubscribe"

--WebTV-Mail-873994043-407--

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: zorn show review/tapes
Date: 19 Sep 1998 13:03:40 -0400

>>Just thought you folks would be interested: the concert dates are at Slim's
>>in San Francisco on Sept. 15 and 16; the first concert is billed as "An
>>Evening with John Zorn, Mike Patton and Dave Lombardo."

>>The one on the 16th is "John Zorn's Xu-Feng with Trey Spruance, John Schott,
>>Chris Brown, Dave Slusser, Dave Lombardo and William Winant / Mike Patton's
>>Feedback Etudes and Phono Sanjo."



1. someone listed a great review on the first show. thank you very much! any
reviews on the second night? is "phono sanjo" a new piece by patton?

2.did anyone tape these shows or know of anyone who did?

thanks mucho-

jt


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: winant collection
Date: 19 Sep 1998 13:07:23 -0400

on the inside of patton's second solo release "pranzo oltranzista" the photo
"intonarumeri" is credited to "the winant collection".

is the winant collection related to william winant? is he a photographer? is
this from a series of collected photos?  thanks

jason


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Gretz <[e-mail]>
Subject: Stop Stomp/avant elitism
Date: 18 Sep 1998 13:03:21 -0400 (EDT)

Nowhere in the description of the list does it say who NOT to talk about.
Whether you like stomp or not they are outside of the mainstream in terms of
A: They are not in heavy musical rotation on the radio, MTV, etc.
B: They are not usuing conventional instruments.
C: What they are doing is original (yeah, i know Neubauten, Test Dept. etc,)
but they are also incorporating dance into it which none of those other groups
did.

Until the guidelines of appropriate discussion are set in stone (which they
shouldn't be that would be ridiculous to set up "rules" per se) then there
shouldn't be any problem.  That's kind of funny setting up "rules" for a list
that is dedicated to music that breaks "rules".   It's kind of hypocritical but
then again so is most of the "downtown" scene.  I only come on this list to
read about Mike Patton coz he's a rock star. And no discussion of Jewel because
she has the word jew in her name.   :)

jeff




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: nils <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: avant snobs eat shit / Squarepusher
Date: 18 Sep 1998 13:44:05 -0500

In the interests of group maturity, I'd like to point
out that when a group gets topheavy and runs out
of things to talk about, it ends up talking about
itself.  Congratulations on reaching the beginning
of the end.  Fortunately there's enough new blood
here that it's not too much of a problem (yet).

Re: Squarepusher, one little nugget which has
not been mentioned is the Vic Acid EP, which is
also on Warp and has some of his more manic
moments on disc.  I like this one a lot.  For the
neophyte, I would agree about Feed Me Weird
Things.

(The Squarepusher thread is not off-topic, in
case you're wondering.  Remember the Derek
Bailey d'n'b record?  DJ Ninj wishes he was
Squarepusher.)

hasta
n


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "schwitterZ" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Stop Stomp/avant elitism
Date: 18 Sep 1998 10:14:20 -0700

<<That's kind of funny setting up "rules" for a list that is dedicated to
music that breaks "rules".>>

I'd like to see see Zorn's reaction if you played in Cobra or Masada with
him and tried to break his rules. You'd learn in a hurry about the place of
rules when it comes to Zorn. Or try sitting in the balcony and breaking the
'no talking during the set' rule.  He may break some rules, but he clearly
replaces them with others.

s~Z


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "schwitterZ" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: avant snobs eat shit / Squarepusher
Date: 18 Sep 1998 10:19:39 -0700

<<In the interests of group maturity, I'd like to point
out that when a group gets topheavy and runs out
of things to talk about, it ends up talking about
itself.>>

And THEN it ends up talking about itself talking about itself. Oy veh!

Uroboros~Z


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Caleb Deupree <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: avant snobs eat shit  : )
Date: 18 Sep 1998 14:01:22 -0400

>>>>> "schwitterZ" == schwitterZ  <[e-mail]> writes:

    schwitterZ> And, like it or not, it explicitly states that this
    schwitterZ> list is for discussing music directly connected to
    schwitterZ> Zorn. The list owner is usually not heavy-handed about
    schwitterZ> enforcing it though.

'directly connected' still provides a *lot* of latitude.  Since JZ is
executive producer for two phenomenal and very wide ranging
collections of music (the Avant and Tzadik labels), which opens the
door to musique concrete (Luc Ferrari and Jim O'Rourke), sound
sculptures (Mamoru Fujieda), and contemporary classical music (the
whole Composer series).  Zorn's own participation in extremely subtle
and quiet music (Redbird) leads without a stretch to Morton Feldman
and the rest of Feldman's descendants.  Cobra and the game pieces are
an interesting approach to group improvisation, and one can (and does)
bring up Butch Morris and other non-jazz improvisation groups, such as
Morphogenesis and Polwechsel.  Heck, even discussion of straight jazz
artists, like Cecil Taylor or Coltrane, is a stretch, as there isn't
much jazz in Zorn's output.

---
Caleb T. Deupree
;; Opinions...  funny thing about opinions, they can change.

Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers.
(Pablo Picasso)


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: C Melody sax
Date: 18 Sep 1998 13:59:42 EDT

In a message dated 98-09-18 12:05:57 EDT, you write:

<< A C Melody sax is a sax that hardly ever gets used.  For some reason I
 remember reading about it as being "not a real" sax, whatever that means.
 It's closest to a tenor, I think.  Tenors are in Bb and Altos are in Eb.
 Maybe the C Melody is particularly easy to play.  I don't know why it
 doesn't get used all that often.
  >>

I wasn't initially going to get into this discussion, but I might be able to
offer some real info on this. I used to play saxes a lot, and owned a C Melody
for a while. If I remember the details right, its just slightly smaller than a
tenor, which would raise its pitch from B flat to C, hence the name. As for
the purpose.....I think it was primarily for marching and concert band use,
since the player wouldn't have to transpose the music as he would on either a
tenor or alto.

I hope that helps, if you have any more questions about this, feel free to
email me.

Dale.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: avant snobs eat shit  : )
Date: 18 Sep 1998 14:03:12 EDT

In a message dated 98-09-18 12:15:44 EDT, Dan Hewins writes:

<< When there was a lot of talk about Tony Conrad in the
 past month I wasn't all that interested but I didn't ask anyone to stop
 talking about it.  >>

This brings up a really good point.....if someone doesn't like the off-topic
threads on this list...perhaps the should join a Jewel list and wait for Zorn
to come up.

Dale.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: C Melody sax
Date: 18 Sep 1998 11:11:06 -0700


On Fri, 18 Sep 1998 13:59:42 EDT  [e-mail] wrote:
>
> I wasn't initially going to get into this discussion, but I might be able to
> offer some real info on this. I used to play saxes a lot, and owned a C Melody
> for a while. If I remember the details right, its just slightly smaller than a
> tenor, which would raise its pitch from B flat to C, hence the name. As for
> the purpose.....I think it was primarily for marching and concert band use,
> since the player wouldn't have to transpose the music as he would on either a
> tenor or alto.

If I remember well, the melody C was developped for non musicians. There was
even a time (long ago) when there was a fad about playing saxophone and the
melody C was developped at that time (there were ads in magazines about
melody C, next to ones to loose weight :-).

As far as military is concerned, the B and E flat family was designed for
the army; the A and C for classical music. Needless to say, the family
designed for the army won.

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Benito Vergara" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Re[2]: please stop: solution
Date: 18 Sep 1998 11:10:34 -0700

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail]
> [mailto:[e-mail]]
> Sent: Friday, September 18, 1998 9:31 AM

>      threads with
>      inauspicious beginnings (and, personally, I have less than
> no interest
>      in Stomp) can branch in almost fractal fashion into potentially
>      fascinating territories, such as high art/mainstream
> boundaries, that
>      were never, presumably, envisioned by the initial poster.

Though this debate has been endlessly recycled on every music-related
mailing list and newsgroup, no (second only to the "sellout/no sellout"
debates and bad grammar flames)? (I can see it now: one post will invariably
mention the Spice Girls.)

All right, let me branch out a little bit: saw used copies of that Sonny
Clark Memorial Quartet CD and the first Lounge Lizards CD at the
neighborhood record store. Are they worth picking up? (All I know of Lurie's
music is his composition on Kronos Quartet's "Winter Was Hard.") If the
Sonny Clark CD is as good as "News for Lulu," then I'm sure I'll enjoy it
(my only beef with that latter album is that they should've had Frisell step
closer to the mic).

Later,
Ben


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Joseph S. Zitt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: avant snobs eat shit  : )
Date: 18 Sep 1998 13:29:07 -0500 (CDT)

On Fri, 18 Sep 1998 [e-mail] wrote:

> This brings up a really good point.....if someone doesn't like the off-topic
> threads on this list...perhaps the should join a Jewel list and wait for Zorn
> to come up.

Actually, on the Ecto list, which tends to be about female
singer-songwriters and from which a lot of Jewel's early support (when she
was still living in her can and touring relentlessly) came, we *are*
discussing Zorn.

 -
---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: john shiurba <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Enjoy (Braxton) 1998
Date: 18 Sep 1998 12:22:12 -0700

> Brax plays a mean stutter-solo on tenor on the double-CD concert disc
> QUARTET (LONDON) 1985.  That's the one that comes to mind.

which piece does he play tenor on? I never noticed any tenor, and it's
not credited on the the LP version.
> Two albums I
> really really like are QUARTET (VICTORIAVILLE) 1991 and QUARTET (SANTA
> CRUZ) 1993 (which suffers from occasionally poor recording, but not too
> bad).

I have to say that I find the Santa Cruz recording to be exquisite both
in sound and content.

--



[e-mail]
http://www.sfo.com/~shiurba

I don't wake up for less than $10,000 a day.
(L. Evangelista)

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Bacharach
Date: 18 Sep 1998 16:26:54 -0300

"Does Zorn really see genius in the author of "What the world needs
now", or is he just playing a joke on the experimental intelligentsia
that worships his every move?"
(David Yaffe- Down Beat- December 1997)


Last week someone (didn't save the post) asked for opinions on the Great
Jewish Music: Burt Bacharach, and my opinion is that though it didn't
impressed me as The Circle Maker did, it is a nice record with at least
eight amazing tracks (from twenty) that worth the price.In fact, just
Douglas/Caine/Robinson's "Wives and lovers" version does.
IMHO, other highlights are MM&Wood, Marie MC Auliffe (any opinions on
her?), Horvitz/Young/Wolf/Holcomb's Close to you" (it's perfect and
amazing), M.Patton, Maestro Frisell(he kills alone), Klusevsek (another
lone killer) and the stunning "Promises, promises" by The Great Erik
Friedlander/Chimera.
All in all, a double cd to absolutely have.

-Hugo

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Scott Handley" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Enjoy (Braxton) 1998
Date: 18 Sep 1998 13:00:39 PDT

The sound is great when you can hear what's being played.  At times Brax
walks away from the mic or something; I remember parts on at least (I
think) the first disc, where whole chunks of his solo are almost
inaudible---lost in the mix, though before the mix even happened.  You
are right about the album as a whole.  Way better than avg live
document.  I mean, Brotzmann's LIVE IN BERLIN 1971 is almost
CRUCIAL---it's brutal and just paint-peeling with intensity: great
music, but the recording is pretty damn mediocre.  I love those records.
I recommend everyone but fans stay away from the 2CD 12 COMPOSITIONS
(QUARTET) 1993 on Music and Arts.  They are pretty badly recorded, and
they are bleeding chunks from several performances.  Really good liner
notes by Henry Kaiser, and a great label, and PRODUCED by Braxton, the
notes say....so why such a lackluster package and recording? (The
performances are even pretty good.)

>I have to say that I find the Santa Cruz recording to be exquisite both
>in sound and content.
>
>--
>
>
>
>[e-mail]
>http://www.sfo.com/~shiurba
>
>I don't wake up for less than $10,000 a day.
>(L. Evangelista)
>
>-
>
>


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (nathalie claeys)
Subject: X-Legged Sally
Date: 18 Sep 1998 22:16:27 +0200

>I must say that The one thing I REALLY like about this list are the off
>topic topics.
>For those of you who like/love/hate X legged sally a load of info at the
>following (although it is outdated) site :
>www.reference.be/xls

Sadly I missed this band when they did their gig here in Brugge. Isn't it
now on CD? With the title "Killed By Charity"?
If I am correct Vermeersch now plays in a band called Dolfijntjes XL. And I
am not missing that concert, I hope...

Uh, to insert some Zorn-content. Just this week I bought the "Great Jewish
Music: Serge Gainsbourg" cd. Must say that I am a bit disappointed with it.
Maybe the reason that I like the other (Burt Bacharach) one better, is,
that I already liked the original material more. Does that sound right?

Nathalie

np Control Data/Mark Stewart


"Flavours are electric"



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Caleb Deupree <[e-mail]>
Subject: don cherry & penderecki
Date: 18 Sep 1998 16:50:31 -0400

I seem to remember people with fond memories of a Don Cherry and
Penderecki collaboration from the early 1970s.  Just received an
update from Forced Exposure which contains this:

CHERRY, DON/PENDERECKI, KRZYSZOTOF: Actions -- The New Eternal Rhythm
Orchestra CD (DEC 08). "Out of print on LP since 1973. This is the
ultimate free jazz and avant classical merger, which was also a major,
defining influence on cosmic rockers like Gong, Henry Cow, etc. With
cover art never previously released in the US (taken from the superior
Japanese Phillips issue rather than the US Everest LP) and original
lengthy liner notes (including an interview with Penderecki)."
Recorded Live at the Donaueschingen Music Festival, 10/17/71. Includes
three live performances, including the legendary "Actions for Free
Jazz Orchestra," conducted by avant garde composer Krzysztof
Penderecki.  Players include: Manfred Schoof, Kenny Wheeler, Tomasz
Stanko, Paul Rutherford, Albert Mangelsdorff, Gerd Dudek, Peter
Br÷tzmann, William Breuker, Gunter Hampel, Fred van Hove, Terje
Rypdal & Han Bennink.

Is this the one?  Is it as interesting as it looks?  Or am I
misremembering previous threads again?

---
Caleb T. Deupree
;; Opinions...  funny thing about opinions, they can change.

Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers.
(Pablo Picasso)


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Brian Olewnick <[e-mail]>
Subject: Joe McPhee: A Likely Story
Date: 18 Sep 1998 17:59:14 -0400

Concert at Merkin Hall, 129 W. 67th St, NYC on Friday, September 24:

Adam Rudolph's Moving Pictures
   w/Hamid Drake, Ralph Jones and Oguri, a Butoh dancer

&

Joe McPhee
   w/Rosi Hertlein (violin), Monica Wilson (cello), Dominic Duval
(bass)    and Joe Giardullo (reeds--he plays a mean bass clarinet!)

McPhee is performing a piece called 'A Likely Story', inspired by the
late painter Alton Pickens, who I was fortunate to study with for a few
years and who introduced me to Joe back around 1975. I'm guessing it
will be a strong, heartfelt piece.

Tix are $10, $7 w/TDF

Brian Olewnick

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Klezmatics Q (kinda off-topic...)
Date: 18 Sep 1998 19:21:03 EDT

I have a chance to pick up a couple of Klezmatics CDs on the Flying Fish label
for a cheap price.  Just wondering if anyone has heard any of this material
and if it is worth picking up.

=dgasque=

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:    William York <[e-mail]>
Subject: Masada 10/ Sonny Clark Mem'l/ new Zorn
Date: 18 Sep 1998 19:40:15 -0400 (EDT)

I've been listening a lot to Masada 10 the past few days and so far its my
favorite, although I've only heard 2, 6, plus Bar Kokhba and The Circle
Maker.  Its got a few songs that pretty much rock, #9 especially has a
great bass riff and is one of two songs on the CD that sort of follows
blues chord changes.  There are also more midtempo songs (6 seemed to be
all fast or completely slow) and only one really slow one, a 14:00 song.
Also, there are parts in two songs where in the middle things break down
and it sounds almost like Zorn could be conducting (made me think about
Masada doing Cobra) for a minute, i don't know.  Overall there are more
outside influnces (blues, surf, spy, straight klezmer)on this and a good
variety to the forms that makes the
"if Ornette was Jewish" description seem a lot less accurate.  Or to put
it this way, I wasn't so excited about hearing this because I was thinking
it would just be more theme-solo-theme stuff but its not.  Plus they sound
really loose and Joey Baron has some amazing drum solos.  This makes me
want to go back and hear some of the others,

As for the Sonny Clark LP, I wrote this last week, I think this is great
but I should point out that it is much "straighter" than News for Lulu.
It has the same feel to it as the Sonny Clark and Grant Green records on
Blue Note from the early 60s, really smooth and after hours, but at the
same time they add their own voices to it.  If that sounds like a good
description, I'd say get it, because its srangely hard to find (mine is
used vinyl).

I also wrote earlier about Ganyru Island that  thought it sounded
interesting but that they really weren't connecting all the time, and I
still think this, but some people might disagree.  I think Locus Solus and
Classic Guide to Strategy would are better examples of Zorn's duck playing
era.  But it is long - 73:00 minutes, if that matters.

Aporias is one that someone else could analyze better- I just don't listen
to enough classical music.  But I think there is a lot to this one and
I've liked it so far, different than Angelus Novus (I can't say better
because I love "Carny").  I'd like to hear other comments.

I haven't heard The Bribe, which I think I'm going to buy, or Music for
Children either, someone else at the station took those for review before
I could get to them.  Music for Children sounds very interesting though.

FINally, about the Masada review in Cadence, its not that I disagreed with
it so much as that it criticized the CD conceptually, the before listening
to it part, to a point that is
rare in that magazine, something I'd expect from the Wire or something
really lame like Spin.  It seems to be part of a trend in that magazine of
trashing Downtown related musicians (like Uri Caine as well).  I mean, you
don't see them criticizing people for playing 1957 style hard bop (or
1967 style free jazz).  Trying to define what is REAL or AUTHENTIC is
tricky and almost always reflects personal biases more than anything else,
so i think of good reviewers as folks who stay away from this.

Anyway... thanks for reading,

WY


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Brian Olewnick <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Joe McPhee: A Likely Story
Date: 18 Sep 1998 19:39:48 -0400

I dopily wrote:
>
> Concert at Merkin Hall, 129 W. 67th St, NYC on Friday, September 24:
                                                ^^^^^^^^^
                              Should've been Thursday.
                    of course.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Masada Soundtrack
Date: 19 Sep 1998 01:42:50 -0400

Circle9 wrote:

> That would be the soundtrack to the made-for-TV miniseries "Masada"-
> which was aired in the early 80s, not 1970. Must have been some mistake
> on the date.

You are correct.  That's what I get for using the All-Music Guide.  Lots of
handy info, except that some of it's dead wrong...

> Certainly a low point in Peter O'Toole's career.

Along with the roughly contemporaneous "Caligula," "High Spirits," and
"Surpergirl," I'd say.  Give me "The Ruling Class," "Man of La Mancha," "The
Stunt Man" and "My Favorite Year" instead, anytime.

Steve Smith
[e-mail]


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Braxton
Date: 19 Sep 1998 02:03:41 -0400

Dan Hewins wrote:

> A C Melody sax is a sax that hardly ever gets used.  For some reason I
> remember reading about it as being "not a real" sax, whatever that means.
> It's closest to a tenor, I think.  Tenors are in Bb and Altos are in Eb.
> Maybe the C Melody is particularly easy to play.  I don't know why it
> doesn't get used all that often.

Most likely it's because most school concert bands tune in B-flat, which makes
B-flat and E-flat saxes more prevalent than the C-melody, like B-flat clarinets
and B-flat trumpets are more prevalent than A clarinets and C trumpets.

About the only figure in jazz history famous for playing the C-melody sax is
Frankie Trumbauer, and he's mainly famous for having employed cornetist Bix
Beiderbecke... take it from there.  The avant-gardists from Rahsaan Roland Kirk
onward liked to reintroduce archaic saxes, and it seems to have been the AACM
Chicagoans who have done the most for the C-melody lately.  Braxton, more than
most, seems to appreciate use of such a horn just because others do not use it.
But as long as school bands are tuned to concert B-flat, the hegemony of the
B-flat tenor and E-flat alto are pretty firm.  In the orchestra, which tunes to
concert A, the saxophone remains rare in general.

That's my theory and I'm sticking to it, even if I'm full of shit.  Can anyone
quote offhand the pitch of the soprano and baritone, the other two most common
saxes?

Steve Smith
[e-mail]


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Peter Hollo <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: All this shit that's been going down
Date: 19 Sep 1998 17:56:12 +1000

A few things:
I'd like to speak for all the digest-readers here. I don't know how many
agree with me but it's a PAIN IN THE ASS having to skip through piles or
rubbish to get a few interesting messages out of them. Yes I have a
delete key but it does stuff all when there's about 20 messages per
email! Please EVERYBODY, that's the complainers and the complainees,
just show some self-control and common sense. As someone pointed out,
the "stop stomp" thread took up more space than the "stomp" thread. If
something is off-topic it should really be Mike Rizzi (list supervisor)
who tells us; long threads of the "that's not suitable for this list"
type just make it even more tedious for digest users like me!

On a different note, both my parents LOVE Bar Kokhba and the Masada
disks. In fact, my Dad loved the Uri Caine Mahler CD ("Primal Light")
that he got me to order another copy and now plays it all the time in
his car.
But they're pretty open-minded cool kind of people ;)

Peter.
--
Peter Hollo  [e-mail]  http://www.fourplay.com.au/me.html
           FourPlay - Eclectic Electric String Quartet
                http://www.fourplay.com.au
"Of course, dance music can be a music where you lie on your back and
your brain cells dance" -Michael Karoli of Can, quoted in Wire mag.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: cd <[e-mail]>
Subject: Berne/Formanek/Bass instruments
Date: 19 Sep 1998 02:04:48 -0700

Speaking of saxophones, it was great to hear Tim Berne play so much bari
sax at the recent Victoria, BC concert with Michael Formanek.  Instead
of playing mostly alto in an effort to stay out of the way of the bass
as many players would feel obliged to do, Berne and Formanek explored
and developed the unique textures that can be obtained by two
bass/contrabass instruments (though not necessarily limited to the lower
range of the instruments).  Not that Berne denied the audience the
pleasure of his alto playing - plenty of this too.
Thanks to Mike et al. for organizing the show...

Any recommendations for recordings that feature ensembles of bass
instruments?

-cd

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Aaron Chee-Kean Chua <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Squarepusher
Date: 19 Sep 1998 19:15:43 +1000 (EST)

hi people,
 this might be old news...but i just saw a new cd by "squarepusher" going
under a different name while browsing in "synathaesia" today.(great new
place to shop in melbourne, btw. ) tom jenkinson is apparently "chaos
a.d."  didn't listen closely but sounded slightly different to his other
albums going by first impressions.

regards
aaron


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Christian Heslop" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re:stop(please read)
Date: 19 Sep 1998 03:00:20 -0700

I don't like it. That is all. That's all I said in my first message. I
never suggested that we should prohibit discussion of certain groups. I
said "I think it's putrid"...."think"!! Okay? I think it was modestly
diffident enough to warrant being left alone. I probably shouldn't have
said.."How can you swallow
this corporate, token "out-there" music pill that they hand you?", but I
was mad.
    I don't like it, but the context makes it even more odious to me. I don't
see why I shouldn't be allowed to say that. Disagreeing with your tastes
doesn't make me an "elitist".Why do you continue to attempt to characterize
my personal choices as aesthetic snobbery?
    "Though I am less at odds with your
    comments (which while they bother me, I know many of us are guilty of
     elitism),"
    " 'Well, if I like these genres and stand for these causes/political
    viewpoints, then I can't possibly like these kinds of music over here and
I
    can never recognize them as valid and must just snicker at them.' "
You couldn't possibly know that.I think genre may very well have been
invented for the sake of snobbery and I have never believed that it was an
indicator of value.I didn't decide that stomp was bad because TV's bad so
the Emmys are bad so STOMP is bad so STOMP makes TV commercial. People
often mock things that they really don't like. I only do it if I think I am
in the kind of company that I won't miff by mocking. That first message was
just me making a joke of my reaction to STOMP. If you think it's
flippant..well I'm sorry. BUT YOUR TASTES ARE NOT A PRODUCT OF YOUR VIRTUES
JUST AS MINE ARE NOT THE RESULT OF SNOBBERY.thats it.



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rick Lopez <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Masada Soundtrack
Date: 19 Sep 1998 06:58:25 -0300

Steve Smith wrote:
>
> Give me "The Ruling Class," "Man of La Mancha," "The
> Stunt Man" and "My Favorite Year" instead, anytime.

Or El Aurens! El Aurens!! and his trusty camel boys...
[And thanks *again* Steve!]

-RL
--
Marilyn Crispell, Sam Rivers, Matthew Shipp, David S. Ware, and Reggie
Workman discographies; Samuel Beckett Eulogy; Baseball & the 10,000
Things; Time Stops; etc., at--
http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Charles Gillett" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: masada 10; etc.
Date: 19 Sep 1998 07:16:37 +0000

On Fri, 18 Sep 1998 09:16:45 -0400 (EDT), Patrick Ivan Jenkins wrote:
>      I'd be interested in hearing responses to Masada 10. Does anyone
> have a copy yet? What's it like?

   I've only been able to listen to it a couple times, so I don't have
a very detailed impression yet.  It's a good, solid end to the series,
which doesn't depart from the precedent set by the first nine albums
yet does have enough newness to it to make it more than just "more of
the same."  "Yechida" (from Bar Kokhba) is here, and so is "Tevel"
(from The Circle Maker).  The track I'm currently listening to,
"Abrakala," is very long (14.28) and very quiet--slight rumblings from
Cohen and Baron, with long-tone ruminations from Zorn.  The free-time
feel is like the first track on Alef, "Jair," but this isn't frenetic
in any way.  Ah, now Douglas joins in, at about 8 1/2 minutes.

   The track before this one, "Nashim," sounds more movie-soundtracky
than your usual Masada tune--not quite like the James Bond theme, but
with that type of propulsive feel.  Hardly "Jewish" sounding at all.

   The last track, apparently the last studio Masada track we'll hear,
is a fairly brief odd-time tune with the head played straight through--
no improv, other than the free accents by Baron.

   All in all, it's great if you like "Pocahontas"-style schlock (per
Walter Horn in the recently-discussed Cadence slam-review of Masada 9).
Thank goodness it's just my thing.

   Regarding Mr. Horn and his Masada review: I didn't like it, nor did
I like his trashing of Uri Caine's Mahler disc, but then I rooted
through my back issues and found that he just doesn't like any downtown
NYC stuff.  I don't know why he continues to review the albums, but I
guess Cadence reviewers don't have a lot of control over what they get.
He liked the Derek Bailey/Joelle Leandre duet, at least.

   I can't say anything about The Bribe that hasn't already been said,
though my reaction is somewhat less positive than most of the ones I've
read about so far.  It's good, and Spillane-sounding, but the sound of
Spillane is less interesting to me than the way it was put together.
Some of the tracks on The Bribe seem to wander about for a while and
that's it.  Again, though, I've had limited listening time and may have
a different perspective later.

   I agree with William York regarding Ganryu Island--there seem to be
many times when Zorn and Sato may as well be in different rooms, with
Michihiro playing traditional-sounding riffs on his shamisen while Zorn
farts and bleats, and then Michihiro playing loud thwacking sounds on
his shamisen while Zorn farts and bleats.  It's not bad, but 76 minutes
of it is a little tiring.


-- Charles

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Brian Olewnick <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Bass Ensembles
Date: 19 Sep 1998 08:40:54 -0400

cd wrote:

> Any recommendations for recordings that feature ensembles of bass
> instruments?

While there are many, of course (anyone remember Peter Warren's one-off
group 'Bass Is'?), the low-down bassest group I can think of appeared on
one track of Roscoe Mitchell's "Four Compositions" (Lovely Music LCD
2021). The piece features Roscoe on bass saxophone, the late Gerald
Oshita on contrabass sarrusophone (a kind of mega-bassoon) and Brian
Smith on the triple contrabass viol, a string bass which, to judge by
the photo, is about ten feet all and must be played standing on a riser!
Oh, and Tom Buckner sings, which I could do without. Smith,
incidentally, did have a working band in the late 70's called the (NY?)
Bass Violin Choir, which included four basses (one was Fred Hopkins)
w/percussion; don't think they ever recorded.

Brian Olewnick

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Peter Risser <[e-mail]>
Subject: Shamisen
Date: 19 Sep 1998 10:24:15 -0400

I'm listening to Ganryu Island, and though I remember it being a
fantastically noisy record ("Champion Air-Clearing Music" is how somebody
labelled it at my old station), I'm listening again and wondering exactly
what the deal with the shamisen is.

Honestly, it sounds kinda dorky on this album.  All he does is go,
plunkplunk plunk plunk, plank plank plank plunk plunk plunk plunk plunk
plink plink plunk plink plank

You get the idea.
Now before I get tons of flames, let me explain.
I think the problem is, I don't understand the original Japanese idiom in
which the shamisen was used, so I can't appreciate maybe what he's doing.

At the same time, I don't hear that he and Zorn are really even working
together, except he's laying down a sort of rhythm base for Zorn's soloing.


Anyone have any insights on the shamisen, what I should be listening for
that would tell me that this is indeed a major shamisen event, and just
insights on Ganryu Island in general.

I really dig Zorn's solo stuff (Classic Guide to Strategy) and some of the
Parachute stuff, but I really having a problem getting into the shamisen.


Please elucidate, if at all possible.
Thanks,
Peter



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Herb Levy <[e-mail]>
Subject: Suspended Music in NYC
Date: 19 Sep 1998 07:57:05 -0800

I want to announce a free concert by Deep Listening Band with Ellen
Fullman's Long String Instrument in NYC Thursday-Saturday Sept 24-26 at
8:00PM in the rotunda of the Low Library Building at Columbia University.
Music by Stuart Dempster, Ellen Fullman, Paul D Miller, & Pauline Oliveros.

This is a rare opportunity to see and hear Fullman's (100 foot) Long String
Instrument.  My understanding is that Miller has collaged a work from
previous Deep Listening Band recordings.

I'll be around for the shows and it would be nice to see some of you face
to face, so if you have the time be sure to say hi.

Bests,

Herb


Herb Levy
[e-mail]



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Herb Levy <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: don cherry & penderecki
Date: 19 Sep 1998 07:57:05 -0800

Caleb T. Deupree wrote:

>I seem to remember people with fond memories of a Don Cherry and
>Penderecki collaboration from the early 1970s.  Just received an
>update from Forced Exposure which contains this:
>
>CHERRY, DON/PENDERECKI, KRZYSZOTOF: Actions -- The New Eternal Rhythm
>Orchestra CD (DEC 08). "Out of print on LP since 1973. This is the
>ultimate free jazz and avant classical merger, which was also a major,
>defining influence on cosmic rockers like Gong, Henry Cow, etc. With
>cover art never previously released in the US (taken from the superior
>Japanese Phillips issue rather than the US Everest LP) and original
>lengthy liner notes (including an interview with Penderecki)."
>Recorded Live at the Donaueschingen Music Festival, 10/17/71. Includes
>three live performances, including the legendary "Actions for Free
>Jazz Orchestra," conducted by avant garde composer Krzysztof
>Penderecki.  Players include: Manfred Schoof, Kenny Wheeler, Tomasz
>Stanko, Paul Rutherford, Albert Mangelsdorff, Gerd Dudek, Peter
>Br=96tzmann, William Breuker, Gunter Hampel, Fred van Hove, Terje
>Rypdal & Han Bennink.
>
>Is this the one?  Is it as interesting as it looks?  Or am I
>misremembering previous threads again?

I don't remember seeing a discussion of this here, but I've heard the
album.  It's NOT a collaboration between Cherry & Penderecki.  They have
separate pieces for what's basically the same ensemble (there may be a few
personnel changes).  The music's interesting, but don't expect any big
surprises.


&, for Steve Smith: sopranos & tenors are Bb; altos & baritones are Eb.


Herb Levy
[e-mail]



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "schwitterZ" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Berne/Formanek/Bass instruments
Date: 19 Sep 1998 07:29:12 -0700

<<Speaking of saxophones, it was great to hear Tim Berne play so much bari
sax at the recent Victoria, BC concert with Michael Formanek.>>

Rare Southern California appearance this Monday:
9/21

New Music Monday Special Event

Miya Masaoka / G.E. Stinson
The amazing electronic koto player who recently debuted at NMM with Fred
Frith returns to collaborate with the noisy and very electric guitar of Mr.
Stinson. 8:30 p.m.

Tim Berne / Michael Formanek
Finally after all these years the astonishing alto saxophonist who is now
one of the most acclaimed avant-garde jazz musicians in Europe and New York
returns with bassist Formanek (a world class musician as well) for this very
special concert. 9:45 p.m.
----
New Music Mondays is at...
LUNA PARK
665 N. Robertson(Between Melrose & Santa Monica)
[phone]
New Music Monday Website:
www.endless.com/nmm/
----



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ethan <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn List Digest V2 #465
Date: 19 Sep 1998 11:27:31 -0400 (EDT)


the chaos a.d. stuff was recorded before "feed me weird things" & it's
much more on the primitive electro end of things.  the chaos a.d. remix ep
has a squarepusher mix that sounds more like big loada.  I'm tempted to
pick up the chaos a.d. record (except it's a double LP import for
something like $23) as big loada and the vic acid ep are my two favorite
records of his thus far.  next album "music is rotted one note"
supposedly eschews the manic drum programming for mostly live
instrumentation.  I think it's out at oct 12.  the realaudio bit at
www.warp-net.com does sound sort of like bitches brew.

ethan


> Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 19:15:43 +1000 (EST)
> From: Aaron Chee-Kean Chua <[e-mail]>
> Subject: Re: Squarepusher
>
> hi people,
>  this might be old news...but i just saw a new cd by "squarepusher" going
> under a different name while browsing in "synathaesia" today.(great new
> place to shop in melbourne, btw. ) tom jenkinson is apparently "chaos
> a.d."  didn't listen closely but sounded slightly different to his other
> albums going by first impressions.
>
> regards
> aaron


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Benito Vergara" <[e-mail]>
Subject: squarepusher
Date: 19 Sep 1998 09:20:41 -0700

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail]
> [mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Ethan
> Sent: Saturday, September 19, 1998 8:28 AM
>
> big loada and the vic acid ep are my two favorite
> records of his thus far.

I agree. "Big Loada" is just one pure rush of drill-and-bass joy. =) I could
never really get into all the fusion-y bass noodlings of "Hard Normal
Daddy," although it's probably the album that edgier jazz fans should listen
to first.

>  next album "music is rotted one note"
> supposedly eschews the manic drum programming for mostly live
> instrumentation.  I think it's out at oct 12.  the realaudio bit at
> www.warp-net.com does sound sort of like bitches brew.

The way some folks on the newsgroups describe it (actually, just the
(in)famous Persi, for those of you who follow Usenet), the new Squarepusher
album will be shaking up the "electronica" world just as much as "Bitches
Brew" did jazz. In any case I'm really looking forward to it.

ObZorn: well, I went ahead and ordered "Aporias."

Later,
Ben

np: thomas koner, "serac"

http://www.bigfoot.com/~bvergara/
ICQ# 12832406


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: john shiurba <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Braxton
Date: 19 Sep 1998 09:29:29 -0700

> That's my theory and I'm sticking to it, even if I'm full of shit.  Can anyone
> quote offhand the pitch of the soprano and baritone, the other two most common
> saxes?

soprano-B flat
baritone- E flat
which is why you see many tenor players double on the former, and alto
players on the latter.

> But as long as school bands are tuned to concert B-flat, the hegemony of the
> B-flat tenor and E-flat alto are pretty firm. In the orchestra, which tunes to
> concert A, the saxophone remains rare in general.

I'm not so sure about your logic here. are you suggesting something
about the intrinsic intonation of reed instruments? when a saxophone is
referred to as a B-flat instrument, what that means is that when the
player reads and plays a C on the instrument, the note that's actually
produced is a 'concert'  B -flat, a C# would produce a concert B, and so
on. This is in order to maintain a consistent fingering for all the
instruments of a family. Now it probably also means that each saxophone
has it's more appropriate just intonation keys, but those questions
don't seem to be commonly addressed in either school bands or in
orchestras. Saying that an orchestra tunes to concert A, doesn't mean
that an alto saxophonist would have to tune his E-flat down to A. Most
people nowadays tune to concert A= 440Hz. an alto saxophonist could tune
by playing an F#, which produces concert A and tuning that note to
440Hz, just as easily as a C trumpet could play A, which produces a
concert A and tune that note to 440Hz.

--



[e-mail]
http://www.sfo.com/~shiurba

I don't wake up for less than $10,000 a day.
(L. Evangelista)

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: ganryu island
Date: 19 Sep 1998 12:24:21 EDT

I personally liked Ganryu Island, I know this is a sort of naive thing to say,
but it was sort of nice to hear Zorn's sax tricks in context. I actually liked
the sound of the shamisen, and occasionally Sato would be playing these
oriental blues sounding riffs, which I thought sounded really cool. I think
that there is room to work with this album, like a drummer would probably have
made a big difference, but I have no problems with this album itself. I
reccomend it, but I'd probaly reccomend the Bribe over it.

from,
matt

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Sean Terwilliger <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Bass Ensembles
Date: 19 Sep 1998 12:28:07 -0400

Jamaaladeen Tacuma has a Bass Chamber Orchestra CD out on Moers.

-Sean

Brian Olewnick wrote:

> cd wrote:
>
> > Any recommendations for recordings that feature ensembles of bass
> > instruments?
>
> While there are many, of course (anyone remember Peter Warren's one-off
> group 'Bass Is'?), the low-down bassest group I can think of appeared on
> one track of Roscoe Mitchell's "Four Compositions" (Lovely Music LCD
> 2021). The piece features Roscoe on bass saxophone, the late Gerald
> Oshita on contrabass sarrusophone (a kind of mega-bassoon) and Brian
> Smith on the triple contrabass viol, a string bass which, to judge by
> the photo, is about ten feet all and must be played standing on a riser!
> Oh, and Tom Buckner sings, which I could do without. Smith,
> incidentally, did have a working band in the late 70's called the (NY?)
> Bass Violin Choir, which included four basses (one was Fred Hopkins)
> w/percussion; don't think they ever recorded.
>
> Brian Olewnick
>
> -




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: nils <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Bass Ensembles
Date: 19 Sep 1998 14:06:12 -0500

> Any recommendations for recordings that feature ensembles of bass
> instruments?

There's a groovy little disc of Barre Philips and Barry Guy on
Maya.  Out improv duets in a church.  Heavy stuff.  Can't
remember the title, sorry, but it's definitely worth getting your
hands on.

The Zorn-related things worth hearing are of course Dark
River on Redbird (solo bass drum, but it might as well be
an ensemble), and there's also a very deep bassy track on
Absinthe.

hasta
n


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: BJOERN <[e-mail]>
Subject: Bacharach versions
Date: 19 Sep 1998 20:29:26 +0200 (MEST)

hi,
well since i found some nice bacharach related stuff on the flea market
today i wanted to ask what other people than the following ones did good
versions of bacharach tunes :

dionne warwick
b.j. thomas
carpenters
herb alpert
walker brothers
tom jones
engelbert
john zorn and his downtown dudes

BJOERN

ps: if that is off-topic send answers privately...well fuck, do what u
want


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:    [e-mail] (Patrick Carey)
Subject: VINYL/CD Sale (many additions) ...
Date: 18 Sep 1998 04:49:26 -0400

Hi,

I've just added a bunch of new items (50 or so) to my
vinyl/CD sale list. They can be found (along with
basic info) at the following website:

http://www.astro.utoronto.ca/~carey/sofa/sale.html

If you are browser challenged, I can email you the list.
Just let me know.

The new stuff includes, among other things ... _lots_ of
Haters, Merzbow, Gerogerigegege, C.C.C.C., Bass Army,
Morphogenesis, Pan(a)sonic, =F8 (Mika Vainio), Porter Ricks,
Laswell, Inoue, Witchman, Godflesh, T.A.G.C, Gastr Del Sol,
Oval, Tortoise, Aube, Megaptera, Microstoria etc. etc.

Thanks for looking.


-Patrick
[e-mail]


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Corey Marc Fogel <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: avant snobs eat shit  : )
Date: 19 Sep 1998 13:02:42 -0700 (MST)



On Fri, 18 Sep 1998, BJOERN wrote:

> no matter if it was about the coolest r'n'b records or the best coltrane
> records (funny enough that noone mentioned that coltrane is off-topic as
> well....at least i cannot see what he has to do with zorn and the downtown
> scene)

you cant? that IS funny. what would the downtown scene be without John
Coltrane?

> in my opinion zorn is one of the musicians who took alot of influences
> from mainstream music.

i would venture to say that any intelligent musician is going to draw from an
extremely wide variety of influences. its just necessary. i dont think that
any of them are in this mind frame that they are the "avant garde" or that
they only want to play the "avant garde". a good number of them come from
extremely "conventional" musical backgrounds. to quote Jim Black,

    "You can say we're all in this underground improvisational music
    scene, but it's really hard to put a moniker on it. It's a massive
    cross-community influence. These people are open to anything, whether
     it's classical country, rock, pop, drum n' bass, techno--anything."

so this notion of things that our parents like and things that are
"mainstream" and "not mainstream" and things that may or may not be deemed
"related" to John Zorn....is ridiculous. we like music. the end.  there's
something to be said about people with the same musical ideals talking about a
number of different artists. i dont think having an album on Avant or Tzadik
or KF is reasonable criteria for EVERY SINGLE topic.


making specific requests about motown or something similar, now that may be
considered a stretch.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Saidel Eric J <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Bass Ensembles
Date: 19 Sep 1998 16:37:57 -0500 (CDT)

According to Brian Olewnick:
>
> cd wrote:
>
> > Any recommendations for recordings that feature ensembles of bass
> > instruments?
>
> While there are many, of course (anyone remember Peter Warren's one-off
> group 'Bass Is'?), the low-down bassest group I can think of appeared on
> one track of Roscoe Mitchell's "Four Compositions" (Lovely Music LCD
> 2021). The piece features Roscoe on bass saxophone, the late Gerald
> Oshita on contrabass sarrusophone (a kind of mega-bassoon) and Brian
> Smith on the triple contrabass viol, a string bass which, to judge by
> the photo, is about ten feet all and must be played standing on a riser!
> Oh, and Tom Buckner sings, which I could do without. Smith,
> incidentally, did have a working band in the late 70's called the (NY?)
> Bass Violin Choir, which included four basses (one was Fred Hopkins)
> w/percussion; don't think they ever recorded.

There was the World Bass Violin Choir, which did record - they have
a record on Black Saint or Soul Note, I believe.  I'm not sure
who's in the group.

There's also a piece on Threadgill's X-75 (or whatever it's called)
for several bassists.

I think there's a Dominic Duval record for two bassists.

- eric



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Adam MacGregor)
Subject: What's with Forced Exposure???
Date: 19 Sep 1998 18:35:22 -0400

Hey folks,

I tried ordering a couple of discs from FE about three months ago, and I
have yet to recieve anything from them....I wasn;t even billed, and when I
inquired via email, I got no reply.

Anybody know if they are having problems with online ordering?

thanks,

--Adam


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Berne/Formanek/Bass instruments
Date: 19 Sep 1998 18:55:38 -0400 (EDT)

If you're interesting in something really weird and "low down" (pun
intended) check out a disk on Bvahaast called Intermission. It features
three bassists, two of whom are William Parker and Wilbert de Joode, plus a
bass saxophonist playing improvised music in a quartet setting. Also
disks featuring tuba meisters Howard Johnson and especially Bob Stewart
are fine as well.

How low can you go?

Ken Waxman
[e-mail]



On Sat, 19 Sep 1998, cd wrote:

> Speaking of saxophones, it was great to hear Tim Berne play so much bari
> sax at the recent Victoria, BC concert with Michael Formanek.  Instead
> of playing mostly alto in an effort to stay out of the way of the bass
> as many players would feel obliged to do, Berne and Formanek explored
> and developed the unique textures that can be obtained by two
> bass/contrabass instruments (though not necessarily limited to the lower
> range of the instruments).  Not that Berne denied the audience the
> pleasure of his alto playing - plenty of this too.
> Thanks to Mike et al. for organizing the show...
>
> Any recommendations for recordings that feature ensembles of bass
> instruments?
>
> -cd
>
> -
>
>

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Trumbauer
Date: 19 Sep 1998 18:51:17 -0400 (EDT)

Trumbauer's other claim to fame by osmosis was the fact that his
recording of "Singing The Blues" and other work influenced Lester "The
Pres" Young to forge a new saxophone style much different than the heavy
sound of Coleman Hawkins.

Young, of course, went on to influence a clutch of other saxophonists in
jazz, most prominently Stan Getz, Zoot Sims, Al Cohn, Brew Moore etc. and
in jazz/soul Gene Ammons etc.

The Trumbauer influence may also be the first recorded example of a
prominent black jazz explorer having a white model, rather than vice versa.

Ken Waxman
[e-mail]



On Sat, 19 Sep 1998, Steve Smith wrote:
>

 > remember reading about it as being "not a real>
> About the only figure in jazz history famous for playing the C-melody sax is
> Frankie Trumbauer, and he's mainly famous for having employed cornetist Bix
> Beiderbecke... take it from there.






>
>

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: SUGAR in their vitamins? <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Berne/Formanek/Bass instruments
Date: 19 Sep 1998 16:12:28 -0700 (PDT)


Formanek has a solo disc on
Berne's Screwgun label that beats the
crap out of all notions you ever had
before.

i think someone else already mentioned it,
but the Barre Phillips vs. Motoharu Yoshizawa
disc "Uzu" on PSF is phenominal in its
own right.

hasta.

> > Any recommendations for recordings that feature ensembles of bass
> > instruments?


Yes.  Beautiful, wonderful nature.  Hear it sing to us: *snap*  Yes.  natURE.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Klezmatics Q (kinda off-topic...)
Date: 19 Sep 1998 19:56:11 EDT

In a message dated 9/18/98 7:32:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< On Fri, 18 Sep 1998 19:21:03 EDT  [e-mail] wrote:
 >
 > I have a chance to pick up a couple of Klezmatics CDs on the Flying Fish
label
 > for a cheap price.  Just wondering if anyone has heard any of this material
 > and if it is worth picking up.

 The only Klezmatics I know on this label is:

 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-

 *** - RHYTHM + JEWS:  The Klezmatics

     1992 - Flying Fish (USA), FF 70591 (CD) >>

You're correct.  They had the above CD plus another one on Flying Fish by
another group I was unfamiliar with.  I went ahead and grabbed the Klezmatics
CD, BTW...

=dgasque=

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joe Tait <[e-mail]>
Subject: Raymond Scott
Date: 19 Sep 1998 21:06:42 -0700

Sort of off-topic, but figured someone would know....

I recently picked up the columbia reissue of Raymond Scott's "Reckless
Nights and Turkish Twilights" as well as "Sounds for Baby Vol.1" and was
wondering if there are any other releases of his in print (and what they
sound like), as well as how the other Sounds for Baby compare to the
first.

Thanks,
Joe


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Chris Sundberg <[e-mail]>
Subject: off topic things
Date: 19 Sep 1998 20:45:35 -0600

i think it's kind of amusing that everytime i read a message from this=20
list, it says "off topic", and it says that for everything unless it's=20
directly about zorn. even if it's only related, it's "sorta off topic",=20
and it all came from a person having a problem with BJOERN asking for=20
info on STOMP. I know this is kind of late to add my comments about=20
this, but i know i didn't join this list to hear only about zorn, i=20
joined it to learn about experimental music. i just think it's really=20
stupid to have this problem because someone didn't like one of the=20
messages. ummm... ok... that's about it.

C=A7


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "=?iso-8859-1?B?roau?=" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: off topic things
Date: 19 Sep 1998 19:58:10 -0700

C=A7:
<<I just think it's really stupid to have this problem because someone
didn't like one of the
messages. ummm... ok... that's about it.>>

Geez. And now people are having a problem with the fact that people are
having problems. This is one self-conscious list!

=AE=86=AE









-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Silent Watcher" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Pharoah
Date: 19 Sep 1998 21:35:55 PDT

Does anyone know who played with Pharoah at the Knit this week (besides
William Henderson at the piano)?  I couldn't understand him when he
introduced the band.

Thanks,
DB

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Peter Hollo <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Klezmatics Q (kinda off-topic...)
Date: 20 Sep 1998 16:00:40 +1000

I really love "Rythm + Jews" - I've actually been listening to it a lot
recently. Certainly a lot more straight than the Zorn versions of
klezmer, but modern nonetheless. What with David Krakauer on clarinet
and Frank London on trumpet, how could it go wrong?

Peter.
--
Peter Hollo  [e-mail]  http://www.fourplay.com.au/me.html
           FourPlay - Eclectic Electric String Quartet
                http://www.fourplay.com.au
"Of course, dance music can be a music where you lie on your back and
your brain cells dance" -Michael Karoli of Can, quoted in Wire mag.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: RroseEndora <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Bass Ensembles
Date: 19 Sep 1998 23:38:43 -0700 (PDT)

> There's a groovy little disc of Barre Philips and Barry Guy on
> Maya.

just witnessed barre in a quartet setting (/w pauline
oliveros - accordion, dana reason - piano,
philip gelb - shakuhachi) at the CNMAT (berkeley).
total group improvisations to occasional duets.
interesting moments include dana's cowell/taylor
derived piano playing and barre's fiddle 'fly-swatting'
antics.

-pin
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Artur Nowak" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Does Frisell play on The Bribe?
Date: 20 Sep 1998 10:45:54 +0200

Hi philozorners!

I have a question releted to "The Bribe". This is what I know: "Written
a few months after the session that created one of Zorn's most
influential compositional masterpieces, Spillane, The Bribe is a major
new discovery in the Zorn oeuvre. Recorded in the same style as
Spillane, with the same engineer, and very close to
the same ensemble..."

Can anybody check if Bill Frisell plays on this record also? I going to
buy it anyway, but I'm sure many of you are faster than me...  :-)
Patrice?

Thanks!

     __________________________________________________________________
     Artur Nowak [[e-mail]]
     www.silesia.top.pl/~arno/default.htm - Discography of Bill Frisell



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Craig Rath <[e-mail]>
Subject: The Bribe
Date: 20 Sep 1998 04:53:52 -0500

Artur Nowak asked:

>Can anybody check if Bill Frisell plays on this record [The Bribe] also?
>I going to buy it anyway, but I'm sure many of you are faster than me...

Just picked it up tonight - the musicians are:

Marty Ehrlich - Reeds
John Zorn - Alto Sax
Jim Staley - Trombone
Zeena Parkins - Harp
Robert Quine - Guitar
Anthony Coleman - Piano
Wayne Horvitz - Organ
Christian Marclay - Turntables
David Hofstra - Bass
Bobby Previte - Percussion

Special guests:
Reck - rhythm guitar
Carol Emanuel - harp
Ikue Mori - drum machines

So, in answer to your question: no Frisell does not play on it, but the
lineup looks great, me being a Robert Quine fan and all.




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: BJOERN <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: avant snobs eat shit  : )
Date: 20 Sep 1998 17:28:22 +0200 (MEST)

> > no matter if it was about the coolest r'n'b records or the best coltrane
> > records (funny enough that noone mentioned that coltrane is off-topic as
> > well....at least i cannot see what he has to do with zorn and the downtown
> > scene)
> you cant? that IS funny. what would the downtown scene be without John
> Coltrane?
damn what would it be without Beethoven????

BJOERN


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Spirer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: avant snobs eat shit  : )
Date: 20 Sep 1998 09:12:50 -0700

At 05:28 PM 9/20/98 +0200, BJOERN wrote:

>damn what would it be without Beethoven????

Broke.

(It's a pun.)


Jeff Spirer
B&W Photos: http://www.pomegranates.com/frame/spirer/
Color and B&W Photos: http://www.hyperreal.org/~jeffs/gallery.html
Axiom/Material: http://www.hyperreal.org/axiom/

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "gschwend d. atelier" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: the bribe
Date: 20 Sep 1998 18:52:01 +0000

BJOERN wrote:
>
> well,
> maybe i missed the reviews for these CDs...
> if not maybe someone should send em .. hmmm??
>
> BJOERN
>
> -

as it says in the press text on the tzadik website, "the bribe" was
written & recorded around the same time as "spillane". (with an almost
identical line-up.)

this becomes very obvious even on the first listen to "the bribe".
little parts here and there are (almost) identical with stuff off
"spillane".

but since a lot of people - including myself - sometimes like listening
to "new" music that reminds them of music they already know (and are
into), i can recommend "the bribe" to anyone who likes "spillane".

patRice


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "gschwend d. atelier" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: masada 10; etc.
Date: 20 Sep 1998 18:40:17 +0000

Charles Gillett wrote:
>

>    The last track, apparently the last studio Masada track we'll
             ===============================================
 hear,


what's the story behind this? did you hear this form reliable sources?

thanks for your reply in advance!

patRice



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Barry Gilbert <[e-mail]>
Subject: New release?
Date: 20 Sep 1998 11:27:55 -0600

--=====================_2640927==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I recently saw a new release from JZ called Vol1: Music Romance, Music For.
. .
on Tzadik scheduled for release October 10th. Any idea what this is about?
Barry Gilbert
Boulder, Colorado
--=====================_2640927==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
I recently saw a new release from JZ called <i>Vol1: Music Romance, Music
For. . . </i>on Tzadik scheduled for release October 10th. Any idea what
this is about?<br>
<div>Barry Gilbert</div>
Boulder, Colorado
</html>

--=====================_2640927==_.ALT--


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Barry Gilbert <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: New Release?
Date: 20 Sep 1998 11:34:43 -0600

15 seconds after my previous message, I found the following on the Tzadik
site:

JOHN ZORN: MUSIC ROMANCE VOL. 1; MUSIC FOR CHILDREN  Music For Children is
the first in a series of quirky collections that show Zorn's compositional
genius at its most eclectic. 3 short never-heard-before Naked City
compositions (written at the time of Torture Garden) performed by Zorn with
the scorching Boston-based band Prelapse; a 20-minute electro-acoustic
excursion for 3 wind machines and 2 controlled feedback systems dedicated
to Edgar Varese, and a virtuosic classical chamber piece for violin,
percussion and piano brilliantly performed by the award-winning
Abel-Steinberg-Winant Trio. These are framed by a poly-rhythmic etude for
percussion and celeste and a charming nostalgic lullaby for music box. As
one would expect, Zorn's vision of childhood is unlike anyone else's and
Music For Children is one of his most provocative recordings.

I also found this (I though Frith mentioned that Zorn would be on this!):

MASSACRE: FUNNY VALENTINE A legendary meeting of three contemporary
masters: Fred Frith - guitar, Bill Laswell - bass, Charles Hayward - drums.
From Material, Arcana and Praxis, Henry Cow, Skeleton Crew, Keep The Dog
and This Heat, these three geniuses have been involved in some of the
greatest underground bands of the past several decades. Collaborating
together for the first time, this is a dream project that takes the classic
rock trio format to never-before-explored territories. An important
document of improvisational rock at its most convulsive.
Barry Gilbert
Boulder, Colorado

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Charles Gillett" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: masada 10; etc.
Date: 20 Sep 1998 14:18:16 +0000

you wrote:
> Charles Gillett wrote:
> >    The last track, apparently the last studio Masada track we'll
>              ===============================================
> > hear,
>
> what's the story behind this? did you hear this form reliable sources?

   Well, it's been the rumor for some time--nothing really official,
just people on rec.music.bluenote saying that they talked to Zorn or
Douglas or whoever after a Masada show and it being passed along that
10 would be the last.

   However, Forced Exposure (www.forcedexposure.com) quotes the
promotional material for Masada 10 as saying:

"The final installment of one of the most popular and provocative series
in all of modern music! John Zorn's Masada music is an extraordinary
blend of up-to-the-minute improvisation and an ongoing sense of Jewish
history and artistic expression. Masada 10 will be the last in this
historic series of studio recordings."

That's all I know.  Zorn can always change his mind, I suppose.


-- Charles


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Corey Marc Fogel <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: avant snobs eat shit  : )
Date: 20 Sep 1998 12:28:05 -0700 (MST)



On Sun, 20 Sep 1998, BJOERN wrote:

> > > scene)
> > you cant? that IS funny. what would the downtown scene be without John
> > Coltrane?
> damn what would it be without Beethoven????

it would be nothing.
John Coltrane just happens to be closer to Zorn/NY Artists chronologically,
so the connection might seem apparent to most ears.



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:    William York <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Bacharach covers
Date: 20 Sep 1998 15:42:54 -0400 (EDT)

> Both Aretha Franklin and Rahsaan Roland Kirk did great although entirely
> different versions of "I Say a Little Prayer".  Kirk's version(s) have
> quotes from Coltrane's "A Love Supreme" as well as Chopin's "Polonaise in
> (something) flat", I think its A-flat.  Kirk also did "Alfie" which wasn't
> as good as "I Say a Little Prayer", I don't think.
>
> Sonny Rollins did an LP based on "Alfie" the movie, haven't heard that.
>
> Oh yeah, Isaac Hayes has an awesome long version of "Walk on By" on his
> _Hot Buttered Soul_ album -  Way over the top.
>
> But I think Dionne Warwick's are considered the definitive versions, you
> can find them on used vinyl anywhere.  I found Bacharach's _Take it Easy
> on Yourself_ for 25 cents a few months ago, its been worth every penny.
> Great stuff.
>
> WY
>  >
> hi,
> > well since i found some nice bacharach related stuff on the flea market
> > today i wanted to ask what other people than the following ones did good
> > versions of bacharach tunes :
> >
> > dionne warwick
> > b.j. thomas
> > carpenters
> > herb alpert
> > walker brothers
> > tom jones
> > engelbert
> > john zorn and his downtown dudes
> >


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Alan Lankin <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Klezmatics Q (kinda off-topic...)
Date: 20 Sep 1998 11:52:18 -0400

"Rhythm & Jews" is a good CD (as are their others).

BTW, they'll be appearing in concert in Philadelphia on Sunday, October
4th.

--
Alan Lankin
http://home.att.net/~lankina/jazz


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tom Pratt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Joe McPhee: A Likely Story
Date: 20 Sep 1998 17:32:50 -0400

> Joe McPhee
>    w/Rosi Hertlein (violin), Monica Wilson (cello), Dominic Duval
> (bass)    and Joe Giardullo (reeds--he plays a mean bass clarinet!)

Did anyone else see McPhee's Wind & String Ensemble at the Fire In The
Valley this year? I thought they were horrible but was wondering if
anyone else had other thoughts.

                -Tom Pratt

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: avant snobs eat shit : )
Date: 20 Sep 1998 18:10:33 -0400 (EDT)


Where would it be without Prehistoric caveman Zog banging a small stone on a
bigger one repeatedly and rhythmically?

Ken Waxman
[e-mail]






On Sun, 20 Sep 1998, BJOERN wrote:

> > > no matter if it was about the coolest r'n'b records or the best coltrane
> > > records (funny enough that noone mentioned that coltrane is off-topic as
> > > well....at least i cannot see what he has to do with zorn and the downtown
> > > scene)
> > you cant? that IS funny. what would the downtown scene be without John
> > Coltrane?
> damn what would it be without Beethoven????
>
> BJOERN
>
>
> -
>
>

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Bacharach covers
Date: 20 Sep 1998 18:17:10 -0400 (EDT)

Rollins didn't just "do an LP based on the movie Alfie". Except for the pop
hits, he composed the entire score and the soundtrack for the movie.

Ken Waxman
[e-mail]





On Sun, 20 Sep 1998, William York wrote:

> > Both Aretha Franklin and Rahsaan Roland Kirk did great although entirely
> > different versions of "I Say a Little Prayer".  Kirk's version(s) have
> > quotes from Coltrane's "A Love Supreme" as well as Chopin's "Polonaise in
> > (something) flat", I think its A-flat.  Kirk also did "Alfie" which wasn't
> > as good as "I Say a Little Prayer", I don't think.
> >
> > Sonny Rollins did an LP based on "Alfie" the movie, haven't heard that.
> >
> > Oh yeah, Isaac Hayes has an awesome long version of "Walk on By" on his
> > _Hot Buttered Soul_ album -  Way over the top.
> >
> > But I think Dionne Warwick's are considered the definitive versions, you
> > can find them on used vinyl anywhere.  I found Bacharach's _Take it Easy
> > on Yourself_ for 25 cents a few months ago, its been worth every penny.
> > Great stuff.
> >
> > WY
> >  >
> > hi,
> > > well since i found some nice bacharach related stuff on the flea market
> > > today i wanted to ask what other people than the following ones did good
> > > versions of bacharach tunes :
> > >
> > > dionne warwick
> > > b.j. thomas
> > > carpenters
> > > herb alpert
> > > walker brothers
> > > tom jones
> > > engelbert
> > > john zorn and his downtown dudes
> > >
>
>
> -
>
>

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Scott Handley" <[e-mail]>
Subject: NYC gigs inquiry (requested favor)
Date: 20 Sep 1998 16:02:01 PDT

Sorry to waste bandwidth, but could anyone e.mail me privately and let
me know what interesting stuff will be happening musically (esp.
improvised music, jazz, etc) New York City from Sept 24-30?  I thought I
heard something about 2 nights of Masada record-release concerts.

Thanks much in advance,

Scott Handley

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tom Pratt <[e-mail]>
Subject: still have...
Date: 20 Sep 1998 20:19:49 -0400

I still have three CD's for sale ($10 each).

Ned Rothenberg Double Band - Real & Imagined Time (Moers)
    Rothenberg w/Thomas Chapin, Jerome Harris, Chris Wood, Jim Black
    & Billy Martin.

Henry Kaiser - Lemon Fish Tweezer (Cuneiform)
    A history of solo guitar improvisations.

John Zorn - The Big Gundown (Nonesuch/Icon)
    Zorn's take on the music of Ennio Morricone.

Let me know if you're interested.

                -Tom Pratt

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tom Pratt <[e-mail]>
Subject: discs all gone
Date: 20 Sep 1998 20:39:07 -0400

All the discs have been sold.

                -Tom Pratt

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Martin Wisckol)
Subject: Low down & Buckethead fashion
Date: 20 Sep 1998 18:55:35 -0700

Highly recommend Henry Threadgill's X-75 Vol. 1 (I don't know of
additional volumes), recorded 1979 -- don't know if it ever came out on
CD, haven't seen it anyway. 4 basses (including piccolo bass), 4 flutes
(including bass flute), amina claudine myers on vocals mostly.... Bob
Stewart has a four-tuba CD that came out a few months ago -- the cut I
heard on KLON (Long Beach) cooked. And reminded me of the live
four-tuba Taj Mahal album from the '70s, The Real Thing (CBS?), which
is swangin'....

Praxis' visit to Solana Beach last Thursday attracted an interesting
crowd (overheard, "He's weird but not in a normal way.'' -- about some
mutual acquaintence.) No suprises, altho I can't help but remark on
B-head's chops. And his KFC bucket. DJ was a bit tedious at moments but
a fun time was generally had by all (regardless of the somewhat grim
expressions of band members).....

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tom Pratt <[e-mail]>
Subject: bass music
Date: 20 Sep 1998 21:44:27 -0400

Has anyone checked out the Ensemble Sondarc disc on For 4 Ears? The
ensemble consists of just six double basses and looked interesting
enough...

                -Tom Pratt

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Risser Family <[e-mail]>
Subject: Bolan Tribute
Date: 20 Sep 1998 22:11:42 -0400

I agree with Patrice (three digests ago).

Arto Lindsay and Marc Ribot are great, as is Mike Patton.
Also, I think Elysian Fields misses the rock, but maintains the sexy =
swing, which was a big part of Bolan's sound.  Also, as goofy as it is, =
Trey Spruance's cut manages to catch a good portion.

So that's four from, what? eighteen or so?  And some are REALLY bad.  =
Rebecca Moore's foolish obliteration of Telegram Sam, Lo whatever's =
neo-New Age Cosmic Dancer, where she misses the words.  And the Melvins, =
who used to have it, have really lost it.=20

i dunno.  Some of the other covers are alright, but barely.

Basically a disappointment.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Masada Soundtrack
Date: 20 Sep 1998 23:59:11 -0400

Rick Lopez wrote:

> Steve Smith wrote:
> >
> > Give me "The Ruling Class," "Man of La Mancha," "The
> > Stunt Man" and "My Favorite Year" instead, anytime.
>
> Or El Aurens! El Aurens!! and his trusty camel boys...

[WINCE!]  How could I forget THAT one?  Uff-da, as the Badger used to
say... :-P

> [And thanks *again* Steve!]

Right back atcha.

Steve Smith
[e-mail]


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: masada 10; etc.
Date: 21 Sep 1998 00:31:26 -0400

Charles Gillett wrote:

>    However, Forced Exposure (www.forcedexposure.com) quotes the
> promotional material for Masada 10 as saying: [snip]

And as Forced Exposure reprints that promotional copy from the Koch release
book, I'd say it's extremely likely you're hearing it from the horse's mouth
by proxy.

> That's all I know.  Zorn can always change his mind, I suppose.

Given that there have been two or three runs of live performances by Masada
since Zorn announced in public that Masada was finished (including this
coming weekend at Tonic), I'd say you're as likely right as wrong.

I haven't picked up Masada 10 just yet, but I did buy "Aporias" and "The
Bribe" (as well as "Spectrum" by Jega, a Mu-Ziq protege) and am suitably
impressed by all.  "The Bribe" seems to me to be brimming with nostalgia,
and how weird is that?

Steve Smith
[e-mail]


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rick Lopez <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: NYC gigs inquiry (requested favor)
Date: 21 Sep 1998 00:47:22 -0300

Scott Handley wrote:
>
> what interesting stuff will be happening musically (esp.
> improvised music, jazz, etc) New York City from Sept 24-30?

Sam Rivers 75th Birthday celebration at Sweeeeet Basil's for the week.
Trio, ensembles, guest artists, RivBea Orchestra...
Tour link at Rivers Discography:
http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k/RIVERS.disc.html

get going,
RL
--
Marilyn Crispell, Sam Rivers, Matthew Shipp, David S. Ware, and Reggie
Workman discographies; Samuel Beckett Eulogy; Baseball & the 10,000
Things; Time Stops; etc., at--
http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: NYC gigs inquiry (requested favor)
Date: 21 Sep 1998 01:27:21 -0400

Scott Handley wrote:

> Sorry to waste bandwidth, but could anyone e.mail me privately and let
> me know what interesting stuff will be happening musically (esp.
> improvised music, jazz, etc) New York City from Sept 24-30?  I thought I
> heard something about 2 nights of Masada record-release concerts.

This is what's at Tonic during the time you mention:

Thu, Sep 24   John Zorn's Masada ($10)
Fri, Sep 25   John Zorn's Masada ($10)
Sat, Sep 26   John Zorn's Masada ($10)
Sun, Sep 27    Freedy Johnston ($10)
Wed, Sep 30   Moran/Speed/Noriega ($6)
(Regarding the last of those, it's Matt Moran on wicked spunky vibraphone,
Chris Speed on genteel clarinet and Oscar Noriega on refined tenor saxophone
and bass clarinet, and they often play Webern.)

September 22-27 Sam Rivers celebrates his 75th birthday with a week at Sweet
Basil with his trio and an incredible all-star big band.

September 24-26 The Deep Listening Band has spent the last 10 years
exploring acoustic sound production in some rather unusual places. The group
- Pauline Oliveros,       accordionist, Stuart Dempster, trombonist, and
David Gamper, winds and electronics - has set up shop everywhere from a
cavernous cistern in Washington state to a lava cave in the Canary Islands.
Now the band kicks off a season-long celebration of its decade together with
an installation-performance, "Decade: Ten Years of Sonic Exploration," in
the vaulted marble arena of Columbia University's Low Library. The evening's
highlight is the LSI. No, it's not a psychedelic drug - it's a unique
100-foot-long string instrument that will be stretched across the library's
public space. Created by composer Ellen Fullman, the LSI is played by the
performers walking among the strings and bowing them with rosined fingers.
The resulting overtones produce an orchestral sound that will turn the
library itself into a giant instrument.  (And this batch of performances is
for free, too!)

On Wednesday, September 30, you could either catch day one of the three-day
Bobby Previte career retrospective OR day one of Tim Berne's Big Satan with
special guest Herb Robertson, both happening simultaneously at the Knitting
Factory (Previte in the Main Space, Berne in the Old Office).

If you go to the Previte concert you'll hear the Bump the Renaissance Band
with Ray Anderson, Wayne Horvitz, and Marty Ehrlich; Empty Suits with Jerome
Harris and Allan Jaffe; Claude's Late Morning Band with Ray Anderson, Wayne
Horvitz, Guy Klucevsek, Jim Mussen, and Carol Emanuel.  Yes, that's just one
night alone...

In other words, you've picked a pretty *sick* time to be in town.  And in
addition to those things, I'd recommend checking out the website
http://www.NYToday.com which is an especially well-designed site run by the
New York Times, with maps and all.  (I stole that Deep Listening Band blurb
from NYToday outright.)

Steve Smith
[e-mail]


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Stefan Verstraeten <[e-mail]>
Subject: X Legged Sally / Peter Vermeersh / Dolfijtnjes
Date: 21 Sep 1998 09:28:07 +0200

> >From: [e-mail] (nathalie claeys)
> >Subject: X-Legged Sally
> >>For those of you who like/love/hate X legged sally a load of info at
> the
> >>following (although it is outdated) site :
> >>www.reference.be/xls
> >
> >Sadly I missed this band when they did their gig here in Brugge. Isn't
> it
> >now on CD? With the title "Killed By Charity"?
Yes it is....great cd by the way

> >If I am correct Vermeersch now plays in a band called Dolfijntjes XL.
> And I
> >am not missing that concert, I hope...
Well, the answer is yes and no. Peter Vermeersh plays indeed in a band
called 'Dolfijntjes XL', but only for this tour. The 'dolfijntjes' exist
of two (to me unknown) keybord players, but for one occasion they went
more freaky. Peter Vermeersh joined on saxes and sampler, Nick Rosseew
(of Fukkeduk) plays bas sax and all sorts of percussion, also other
alumni of x leeged sally related bands help the 'dolfijntjes'.
But how about their show??? Well, you should definitely see it, it is a
mixture of playing music to silent movies, commercials,... and they play
weird covers (like abba, eurosongvision contests,....). Their record is
published by the cultural centre of Kortrijk.
But Peter Vermeersh has formed a new band (with Pierre Vervloessem also
from X leeged Sally) called 'A group'. Their mini-cd is out domestically
(it is on PIAS), but their full cd is out on a japanese label. What they
play: less freaky stuff than X legged sally, it's more melodic and it
sounds sometimes like 80's pop music... in a great way.

But hey, it is great to find out that we have quite a community of
Belgians on the zornlist...
--
Stefan Verstraeten

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Alan E Kayser <[e-mail]>
Subject: Sweetnighter Jazz in Philadelphia
Date: 21 Sep 1998 08:58:55 -0400

Sweetnighter Productions in Philadelphia will be presenting two shows in
October:

    The Vandermark 5
    Sunday, October 4, 4PM
    Unitarian Church, 21st and Chestnut

    Andy Laster's Hydra
    Saturday, October 10, 9:30 & 11
    Michael Taylor-Jon Madof Group late show
    Ortleib's, 3rd & Poplar

For more information
http://home.att.net/~lankina/sweetnighter



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Gretz <[e-mail]>
Subject: Bacharach
Date: 21 Sep 1998 09:32:06 -0400 (EDT)

Dionne Warwicks are hands down the definitive versions because most of the
tunes were written FOR her.  Even Bacharach's solo albums were recorded after
her versions were (and often without words).

Has anyone heard the McCoy Tyner Bacharach Album?  It's on Impulse but i
haven't picked it up yet. I'm still trying to gather up all of the Joe Jackson
cd's so i'm not in the position for impulse (no pun intended) buys.

jeff

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Eric Saidel <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Masada 10/ Sonny Clark Mem'l/ new Zorn
Date: 21 Sep 1998 09:31:40 -0500

I'm not sure I like playing this role, but I find myself in this position, so
I might as well live it up.


William York wrote:



> FINally, about the Masada review in Cadence, its not that I disagreed with
> it so much as that it criticized the CD conceptually, the before listening
> to it part, to a point that is
> rare in that magazine, something I'd expect from the Wire or something
> really lame like Spin.  It seems to be part of a trend in that magazine of
> trashing Downtown related musicians (like Uri Caine as well).  I mean, you
> don't see them criticizing people for playing 1957 style hard bop (or
> 1967 style free jazz).

I won't bother with the conceptual crit - I said all I have to say about that
the other day.  Let me merely point out that the magazine does not trash
downtown related musicians.  Not even Uri Caine.  One bad review does not make
a trashing; I know for a fact that the last cd (before "Primal Light") of
Caine's to get reviewed in Cadence ("Toys") got a rave.  I'm not sure how
there could be a magazine-wide policy of trashing certain musicians.  The
reviewers just review cds.  That's all.  There's no effort from the editorial
staff to censor the reviews or to encourage negative reviews of certain cds.
There are lots of positive reviews of downtown musicians, just not these two
reviews (by the same reviewer, by the way).  And I know that there are several
reviewers who are sympathetic to the downtown scene (I know this from reading
their reviews).  At least two of them hang out here.

We might look to the behavior of the editorial staff itself to find a bias,
but there's evidence of just the opposite there: Joey Baron was on the cover
recently, Dave Douglas was a featured interview recently, and the Cadence
label has recorded downtown musicians recently.

Finally, there are plenty of reviews which trash musicians for doing yet
another album of hard bop.


> Trying to define what is REAL or AUTHENTIC is
> tricky and almost always reflects personal biases more than anything else,
> so i think of good reviewers as folks who stay away from this.

Yup.  This is an excellent criterion, and an incredibly hard one to meet.  For
what it's worth, I think Horn's reviews "trashing" Masada 9 and Primal Light
met it.


And Charles Gillett wrote:


>    All in all, it's great if you like "Pocahontas"-style schlock (per
> Walter Horn in the recently-discussed Cadence slam-review of Masada 9).
> Thank goodness it's just my thing.
>
>    Regarding Mr. Horn and his Masada review: I didn't like it, nor did
> I like his trashing of Uri Caine's Mahler disc, but then I rooted
> through my back issues and found that he just doesn't like any downtown
> NYC stuff.

That's not clear.  His review implies that he likes Zorn's more radical
stuff.  He also is very positive about Zorn's abilities as a player.  (More
positive than I would be!)


> I don't know why he continues to review the albums, but I
> guess Cadence reviewers don't have a lot of control over what they get.

Bingo!


Enough blathering from me.

- eric



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: masada 10; etc.
Date: 21 Sep 1998 10:44:31 EDT

In a message dated 98-09-21 02:27:31 EDT, you write:

<< from the horse's mouth by proxy >>

.....soon to be the title of the next Soul Asylum LP.....<G>

Dale.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Stefan Verstraeten <[e-mail]>
Subject: buckethead / praxis info wanted
Date: 21 Sep 1998 17:20:44 +0200

Dear Zornies,
Some days ago, I found the existence of a praxis album called 'Live at
Warsaw Summer'.
It is a live Praxis Album, recorded at Sala Kongresowa, Warsaw, Poland
on june 29, 1996.
The label is Akwarium Concert Agency Jazz-a-gogo a-015. (It sounds like
a bootleg label, but it isn't)

Does anyone knows where to order this CD, or does someone want to sell a
copy??? As far as I found out, I think that the album is no longer in
print. So, dear zornies, if you owne this record, could you let me know
it please??? ThanXXXXXXX.

ps Yes indeed, Patrice and/or Jeff, do you know some inside story on
this one???
--
Stefan Verstraeten

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Michael A. Piper" <[e-mail]>
Subject: The Vandermark Five + Sterno & Ativin (fwd)
Date: 21 Sep 1998 10:51:19 -0600

For anyone in the area, a great band:

>BEYOND THE PALE PRODUCTIONS and TDs CDs and LPs present:
>
>(From Chicago, Atavistic Recording Artists)
>THE VANDERMARK FIVE
>w/ STERNO & ATIVIN
>
>Friday, October 9, 1998
>Second Story, Bloomington, Indiana
>Tickets $6 ($5 in advance, available from TDs CDs and LPs)
>
>----------------------------------------------------------
>"One of the leading groups of Chicago's healthy jazz scene, the Vandermark
>Five positively kill from note one on this new album."
>   -- Option
>
>"[The new album] *Target or Flag* picks up where *Single Piece Flow* left
>off, blurring distinctions between jazz and rock, without compromising the
>best elements of either form."
>   -- Chicago Tribune
>
>"In most of the groups I play with there's a lot of radical shifting and
>changing. Almost on a constant basis. We're like really wired,
>coffee-drinking musicians."
>   -- Ken Vandermark
>----------------------------------------------------------
>
>The Vandermark Five are a full-octane jazz quintet featuring Ken
>Vandermark, one of the key figures in Chicago's increasingly important
>creative jazz scene. Their infectious energy combines outside free
>playing, tight jazz arrangements, and strong grooves. Also on the bill are
>local improv trio Sterno (featuring members of the band M) and Bloomington
>faves Ativin.
>
>Beyond the Pale Productions is a local group of musicians, radio DJs, and
>fans; our goal is to bring creative, improvised, and/or experimental music
>to Bloomington. We hope this will be the first of many productions.
>
>For more information, contact:
>
>[e-mail]
>http://php.indiana.edu/~shagraha/pale.html
>


Indiana University School of Library and Information Science
    "Tu id inveni tibi...
         quid videor -- bibliothecarius?"

The Official Henry Kaiser Website
     http://php.indiana.edu/~mpiper/HKMain.html
        "The best in comtemporary improvisation..."



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dan Hewins <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: avant snobs eat shit : )
Date: 21 Sep 1998 11:28:29 -0500

There would have been another Prehistoric Caveman Ugga banging a stone.

>Where would it be without Prehistoric caveman Zog banging a small stone on a
>bigger one repeatedly and rhythmically?
>
>> > you cant? that IS funny. what would the downtown scene be without John
>> > Coltrane?
>> damn what would it be without Beethoven????



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dan Hewins <[e-mail]>
Subject: Masade 10 / Box Set
Date: 21 Sep 1998 11:31:05 -0500

Now that Masada 10 is out when can we expect the Box Sets on Tzadik to come
out?  How long will Masada 10 have to 'settle' into the market?

Dan, just wondering and not expecting anyone to really know.



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Spirer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: buckethead / praxis info wanted
Date: 21 Sep 1998 09:35:35 -0700

At 05:20 PM 9/21/98 +0200, Stefan Verstraeten wrote:
>Dear Zornies,
>Some days ago, I found the existence of a praxis album called 'Live at
>Warsaw Summer'.
>It is a live Praxis Album, recorded at Sala Kongresowa, Warsaw, Poland
>on june 29, 1996.
>The label is Akwarium Concert Agency Jazz-a-gogo a-015. (It sounds like
>a bootleg label, but it isn't)
>
>Does anyone knows where to order this CD, or does someone want to sell a
>copy??? As far as I found out, I think that the album is no longer in
>print. So, dear zornies, if you owne this record, could you let me know
>it please??? ThanXXXXXXX.

It was distributed as part of a magazine promotion, never sold in stores.
It is very difficult to find, but there is a plan to release it as a
standard CD, possibly early next year.


Jeff Spirer
B&W Photos: http://www.pomegranates.com/frame/spirer/
Color and B&W Photos: http://www.hyperreal.org/~jeffs/gallery.html
Axiom/Material: http://www.hyperreal.org/axiom/

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: new Golden Palominos compilation...
Date: 21 Sep 1998 09:41:28 -0700


    Just found the following compilation:


*** - THE BEST OF THE GOLDEN PALOMINOS (1983-1989): Golden Palominos

    1997 (1998?) - Music Club (???), MCCD 316 (CD)


Does anybody has an idea when it came out? Also, what is the country?

    Thanks,

    Patrice (trying to close on the new Zorn discography release).

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Scott Handley" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Masada Box
Date: 21 Sep 1998 09:44:02 PDT

>Now that Masada 10 is out when can we expect the Box Sets on Tzadik to
come
>out?

Doubtless some among us have the scoop, but what Bruce Gallanter told me
once (in a qualified, speculative way, mind you---he wasn't implying he
KNEW anything) that it'd be a year from the time 10 hit the shelves.
I'm really happy now that all I got was ALEPH.  In fact, I'm rolling in
the aisles.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Spirer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: new Golden Palominos compilation...
Date: 21 Sep 1998 09:49:04 -0700

At 09:41 AM 9/21/98 -0700, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:

>*** - THE BEST OF THE GOLDEN PALOMINOS (1983-1989): Golden Palominos
>
>    1997 (1998?) - Music Club (???), MCCD 316 (CD)
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
>
>Does anybody has an idea when it came out? Also, what is the country?
>

There is so much re-licensing of the early (pre-Restless) Golden Palominos
material that it is impossible to keep track.  I asked Anton about all of
these re-releases and he said he hadn't seen many of them.


Jeff Spirer
B&W Photos: http://www.pomegranates.com/frame/spirer/
Color and B&W Photos: http://www.hyperreal.org/~jeffs/gallery.html
Axiom/Material: http://www.hyperreal.org/axiom/

-



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: RE:buckethead / praxis info wanted
Date: 21 Sep 1998 18:58:55 +0200


Praxis "Live at Warsaw Summer Jazz Days" is easy to buy in Poland.
All who are interested in trading e-mail me privately.

Marcin

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: new Golden Palominos compilation...
Date: 21 Sep 1998 10:02:19 -0700


On Mon, 21 Sep 1998 09:49:04 -0700  Jeff Spirer wrote:
>
> There is so much re-licensing of the early (pre-Restless) Golden Palominos
> material that it is impossible to keep track.  I asked Anton about all of
> these re-releases and he said he hadn't seen many of them.

The compilation claims:

    Licenced from Charly

Does Anton get as much money from that as Fred Frith with KILLING TIME :-).

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Lang Thompson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Pierre Schaeffer box
Date: 21 Sep 1998 13:03:32 -0400

Does anybody know where I might be able to get this?  All the usual outlets
long ago sold theirs and tell me that it's out-of-print though there may be
a future release on single CDs.

Best, LT
Lang Thompson
http://www.tcf.ua.edu/wlt4

New at the Funhouse website:  Did Elvis Steal Rock 'n'
Roll?, The X-Files Movie Bites!, music reviews

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (ashley capps)
Subject: Re: Masada Box
Date: 21 Sep 1998 17:01:04 -0400

>>Now that Masada 10 is out when can we expect the Box Sets on Tzadik to
>come
>>out?
>
>Doubtless some among us have the scoop, but what Bruce Gallanter told me
>once (in a qualified, speculative way, mind you---he wasn't implying he
>KNEW anything) that it'd be a year from the time 10 hit the shelves.
>I'm really happy now that all I got was ALEPH.  In fact, I'm rolling in
>the aisles.

I'm a bit curious about this and similar reactions/concerns about the
upcoming Masada box set - especially the "I'm glad I didn't buy them" line.
Personally, I'm glad I've bought them when they came out because I've been
enjoying the hell out of 'em for the past few years. Am I imagining it, or
are some of you more interested in "collecting" rather than actually
listening to and enjoying the music? Just curious.

Ashley



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: NYC gigs inquiry (requested favor)
Date: 21 Sep 1998 13:55:34 -0700

Steve Smith wrote:
>
> Thu, Sep 24   John Zorn's Masada ($10)

    Yesterdays S.F. Chronicle's ad for the S.F. Jazz
    Festival had a listing for

        Nov. 8th - John Zorn's Masada

    rizzi

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dan Hewins <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Masada Box
Date: 21 Sep 1998 16:42:27 -0500

I have 7, 8, & 9 and my roomate has 1, 2, 3, 5, & 6.  Once I heard that the
boxed sets were coming out (of course containing extra tracks) I didn't
want to buy them because I knew I would want to buy the boxed set.  Now,
what gets me is the marketing involved.  If they (Tzadik) know they're
going to release a set and they know exactly what will be on it, what's the
hold up?  Go ahead and release it.  It seems like they're waiting for
people to buy up 10 before they do it.  Now maybe it's a annoying
contractual thing with DIW but it still sucks for us.  I would really like
to hear Masada 10 but why buy it when I know I am planning on getting the
box later?  That's $20 extra spent.  I don't want to but I feel like I'm
being jerked around a little bit.  I am really interested in the live set
that is supposed to be released as well.  They always get us with the extra
tracks don't they?

Dan



>I'm a bit curious about this and similar reactions/concerns about the
>upcoming Masada box set - especially the "I'm glad I didn't buy them" line.
>Personally, I'm glad I've bought them when they came out because I've been
>enjoying the hell out of 'em for the past few years. Am I imagining it, or
>are some of you more interested in "collecting" rather than actually
>listening to and enjoying the music? Just curious.
>
>Ashley




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jason Caulfield Bivins <[e-mail]>
Subject: Cadence redux
Date: 21 Sep 1998 16:48:30 -0500 (EST)

Hi folks,

Sorry if this is a wee bit tardy, but I get these things in digest form.
Anyway, I'd just like to chip in my 2 cents on Cadence, the bulk of which
is essentially a seconding of Eric's good post.

I happen to think that Walt Horn (the author of the review in question) is
one of the better reviewers on the staff, thoroughly grounded in music theory and history in a way that
enhances rather than detracts from his reviews. Of course, we may not
agree with the conclusions he reaches with these tools at his disposal
(for what it's worth, I think he ungenerously trashed the Joe Morris/Matt
Shipp disc, but I essentially agree with him about the merits of Masada 9
-- IMHO one of the weaker discs of the series, and the point about
creeping exoticism shouldn't be dismissed either).

I also find it odd to suggest that the magazine has an aesthetic orthodoxy
at work. Having been the recipient of far too many hard-bop discs to
review in these recent months, I can tell you that I don't subscribe to
this notion (which isn't to say that I haven't liked some of these discs).
And just check out the year's best-of list if you wanna see what the
reviewers REALLY like -- Eric's is choice, by the way. The most common
names on everyone's list are Vinny Golia, Barry Guy, Tim Berne, Ellery
Eskelin, Joe McPhee. They're not all necessarily "downtown" but who really
cares?

I guess what struck me about this exchange, and the many other similar
debates, is that there are occasionally some rather uncritical defenses of
the artists discussed on this list (and no, I'm not suggesting that
William York did this). Personally, I think that Zorn has released far too
much material in recent years, much of it sub-par. But one of the things I
appreciate about ALL his work is a relentless questioning of the musical
taken-for-granted. When we start crowning his work with the
fawning adulation usually reserved for the Marsalis-clones, then we're
falling into some sort of deep irony.

I'd love it if Rusch sent me some more "downtown" stuff to review, but
would never feel a compulsion to privilege it over other musics. Shit, I'm
just happy to get free CDs.

Jason Bivins


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Scott Handley" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Collectors vs. appreciates: qu'est-ce le difference?
Date: 21 Sep 1998 14:52:07 PDT

My comment I should clarify: it was poorly chosen.  I am HAPPY because
the Masada recordings are, IMHO, so consistently vital and musical and
noticeably different. What great music.  My point of view was
RELIEF---relief that friends of mine had bought EVERYTHING already so I
could hear it and, frankly, experiment w/ my money.  I also figured
they'd stick around in print for a while.  I myself am excited about a
box because I'd get to take advantage of the possible outtake discs.  If
the all-live box was released, I might get that instead.  Anyone's
investment all along has been sound, I think.

An issue which I've thought about stems from Brian Eno's comment to the
effect that the problem w/ jazz is that so much of it just sounds like
more jazz.  I see his point, and to an extent I agree with it.  I have a
difficult time seeing why someone needs every Hank Mobley album, or for
that matter every Masada album.  To me there is a general similarity in
form and approach (less true with Masada than Mobley, I think).  Do we
need any more Charles Gayle?  Do we need another Derek Bailey solo
record?  I have an awful lot of Cecil taylor, Evan Parker, and John
Coltrane, but to my ears, you can get at least ten by each of them
without any two sounding remotely alike.  In a music, what is there to
know?  Creative music seems limitless to me, in theory.  How far can we
analyze music from one source (be that a person, idea, or culture, even)
until we are plitting hairs, and resorting to critical theory to make
the redundant interesting?

>>....I'm really happy now that all I got was ALEPH.  In fact, I'm
rolling in
>>the aisles.
>
>I'm a bit curious about this and similar reactions/concerns about the
>upcoming Masada box set - especially the "I'm glad I didn't buy them"
line.
>Personally, I'm glad I've bought them when they came out because I've
been
>enjoying the hell out of 'em for the past few years. Am I imagining it,
or
>are some of you more interested in "collecting" rather than actually
>listening to and enjoying the music? Just curious.
>
>Ashley
>
>
>


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Scott Handley" <[e-mail]>
Subject: don't read my last post!
Date: 21 Sep 1998 15:57:39 PDT

I just reread my last post.  In additin to sounding stupid, the French
101 grammar was missing it's 'que'.  Sorry, but I feel the need for
public penance.  By the way, I just heard the new Dave Douglas MAGIC
TRIANGLE, w/ Potter, Perowsky, and Genus, and it's pretty good.  Not my
favorite DD record, though.  Very straight ahead.  The instrumentation
and approach owe a bit to Masada, and not just superficially.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Julian" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Masada Box
Date: 22 Sep 1998 09:36:51 +1000

Maybe the delay in releasing the boxed sets (and this is purely wishful
thinking) is that they're trying to figure out a better way of releasing
them so that the real fans who bought all the single cds don't get ripped
off...?


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: jazz concert
Date: 21 Sep 1998 20:06:56 EDT

A concert of definate interest to new music fans:

Saturday, October 24, 1998
Birmingham Unitarian Church
651 Woodward
Bloomfield Hills, Michigan
8:30 PM

Leroy Jenkins - violin
Myra Melford - piano
Joseph Jarman - saxophone

Hope many of you can make it!!  Only $15!!!


Dave Lundin  248-816-1647

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Benito Vergara" <[e-mail]>
Subject: david s. ware recommendations?
Date: 21 Sep 1998 17:31:45 -0700

Any good place for a beginner to start? I've read in various places that
"Flight of I" would be the disc to pick up, although I have never seen it in
any record stores, real or virtual.

Thanks in advance,
Ben

http://www.bigfoot.com/~bvergara/
ICQ# 12832406


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rick Lopez <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: david s. ware recommendations?
Date: 21 Sep 1998 21:02:54 -0300

Benito Vergara wrote:
>
> good place for a beginner to start?
> "Flight of I" would be the disc

Sure, that would be fine. The Great Bliss Vols. 1&2 would also be an
"easier" route in than most. A bit more spacious and gentle, maybe...
But what are you listening to now? You may want to just jump directly
into the fire and buy the new one, GO SEE THE WORLD, which is
absolutely, (IMHO) beautiful.

If you don't find what you want doing a few searches, let me know and
I'll dig some up for you.

best regards,
Rick Lopez
--
Marilyn Crispell, Sam Rivers, Matthew Shipp, David S. Ware, and Reggie
Workman discographies; Samuel Beckett Eulogy; Baseball & the 10,000
Things; Time Stops; etc., at--
http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Masada Box
Date: 21 Sep 1998 23:09:39 EDT

sorry, maybe i've missed something but i've worked in records stores for 6
years (yes one that carry most tzadik stuff) and have ner seen tzadik release
a box set before. have they? if it were to have all the material, and then
some it seems tzadik prices would dictate something upwards of $400, which
would relegate it to a few choice borders stores and major city jazz stores.
doesn't seem like a very profitable prospect to me. are you guys really sure
that would ever happen?

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Bacharach
Date: 21 Sep 1998 23:54:55 -0400

Jeff Gretz wrote:

> Has anyone heard the McCoy Tyner Bacharach Album?

I haven't heard it, but I haven't heard anything at all good about it, either, and
I seem to remember a zero-stars review in Pulse.  Definitely bottom of your list
no matter what you think of the Mighty McCoy.

Ahh, Joe Jackson.

Steve Smith
[e-mail]


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: masada 10; etc.
Date: 21 Sep 1998 23:59:25 -0400

[e-mail] wrote:

> << from the horse's mouth by proxy >>
>
> .....soon to be the title of the next Soul Asylum LP.....<G>

LOL! :-)

Steve


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: new Golden Palominos compilation...
Date: 22 Sep 1998 00:24:40 -0400

Jeff Spirer wrote:

> At 09:41 AM 9/21/98 -0700, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:
>
> >*** - THE BEST OF THE GOLDEN PALOMINOS (1983-1989): Golden Palominos
> >
> >    1997 (1998?) - Music Club (???), MCCD 316 (CD)
> >
> >---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---
> >
> >Does anybody has an idea when it came out? Also, what is the country?
> >
>
> There is so much re-licensing of the early (pre-Restless) Golden Palominos
> material that it is impossible to keep track.  I asked Anton about all of
> these re-releases and he said he hadn't seen many of them.

Patrice's subsequent message in this thread (which I read before I saw this one)
indicated that the material was licensed from Charly, which stands to reason.
Music Club is a British budget compilation label distributed in the U.S. by
Koch, which means their stuff is actually pretty easy to find.

The discs I've seen range from the sublime (a cheap sampler of early Nusrat Ali
Khan, a killing dub sampler, a nice survey of Astor Piazzolla's Milan label
albums, a Joe Meek collection!?!) to the ridiculous (one more offering of early
Sex Pistols boots, anyone?  How about Andrew Lloyd Webber on panpipes?  Or "The
Royal Philaharmonic Plays Oasis"  Lame shit that can't even aspire to be the
stuff of legend...).

There's a website (run by former Goldmine editor Jeff Tamarkin) at
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Jeff_Tamarkin/musicclu.htm

but I didn't see anything about the Golden Palominos on it.  Maybe you want to
go through the site and e-mail Jeff (T., not S.).

Steve Smith
[e-mail]
NP: Jega, "Spectrum" - d'n'b that reminds of both Kraftwerk and Jean-Michel
Jarre... hmmm...


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Spirer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: new Golden Palominos compilation...
Date: 21 Sep 1998 21:45:54 -0700

At 12:24 AM 9/22/98 -0400, Steve Smith wrote:

>Patrice's subsequent message in this thread (which I read before I saw
this one)
>indicated that the material was licensed from Charly, which stands to reason.

Charly isn't the originator, however.  They licensed it from The Music
Company, which owns the rights to Celluloid (along with Subharmonic) and
has done the licensing.


Jeff Spirer
B&W Photos: http://www.pomegranates.com/frame/spirer/
Color and B&W Photos: http://www.hyperreal.org/~jeffs/gallery.html
Axiom/Material: http://www.hyperreal.org/axiom/

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: david s. ware recommendations?
Date: 22 Sep 1998 00:47:29 -0400

Benito Vergara wrote:

> Any good place for a beginner to start? I've read in various places that
> "Flight of I" would be the disc to pick up, although I have never seen it in
> any record stores, real or virtual.

"Flight of i" is a very good way in, but it's also quite hard to find, as it was
a product of a since-lapsed union between DIW and Columbia.  But that was the
disc that hooked me, and I see it reasonbly often in second-hand shops.

I've frequently read that "Third Ear Recitation" is better still, but haven't
heard it.  Of the discs I know, "Cryptology" and "Dao" impressed me mightily.
"Godspelized" is very important for marking the debut of the divine Susie Ibarra
and including a fine Sun Ra cover.  "Wisdom of Uncertainty" on AUM Fidelity is
also very fine.  But overall my impression is that the Ware Quartet has been so
consistent in its output, even given two changes of drummer, that almost
anywhere you start you give you a representative vision.  (That said, and no
slight to the remarkable Whit Dickey, Susie Ibarra is far and away my favorite
percussionist to have played in this group.)

And while internet propriety keeps me from shilling too heavily for the new DSW
Quartet disc "Go See the World" (because I get paid by Columbia Records among
others during daylight hours, and they are DSW's new label), I'll simply say
it's in your local store later today if you're interested...

Steve Smith
[e-mail]


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: new Golden Palominos compilation...
Date: 22 Sep 1998 00:56:39 -0400

Jeff Spirer wrote:

> >indicated that the material was licensed from Charly, which stands to reason.
>
> Charly isn't the originator, however.  They licensed it from The Music
> Company, which owns the rights to Celluloid (along with Subharmonic) and
> has done the licensing.

Good grief.  The question then remains... are any of the artists who made the
music seeing any money whatsoever for the continued life of their own work?  (I
saw the Charly CD pressing of Zorn/Bailey/Lewis "Yankees" for the first time day
before yesterday and wondered the same thing...)  That you mention Subharmonic in
the same sentence with the words "owns the rights to" makes me think the answer to
my question is no...

I'd had a pretty fond view of Music Club to this point, but I guess anything good
in the music business can be blighted somehow...

Steve Smith
[e-mail]
NP: John Zorn - "The Bribe" (snap...snap...snap...)


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Circle9 <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Bacharach
Date: 22 Sep 1998 02:04:27 -0400

And while we're on the Bacharach subject... has anyone heard any advance word on the
BB / Elvis Costello album? I just picked up tix for their RCMH show. Hope it's worth
the $$.

    -S.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: new Golden Palominos compilation...
Date: 22 Sep 1998 00:56:39 -0400

Jeff Spirer wrote:

> >indicated that the material was licensed from Charly, which stands to reason.
>
> Charly isn't the originator, however.  They licensed it from The Music
> Company, which owns the rights to Celluloid (along with Subharmonic) and
> has done the licensing.

Good grief.  The question then remains... are any of the artists who made the
music seeing any money whatsoever for the continued life of their own work?  (I
saw the Charly CD pressing of Zorn/Bailey/Lewis "Yankees" for the first time day
before yesterday and wondered the same thing...)  That you mention Subharmonic in
the same sentence with the words "owns the rights to" makes me think the answer to
my question is no...

I'd had a pretty fond view of Music Club to this point, but I guess anything good
in the music business can be blighted somehow...

Steve Smith
[e-mail]
NP: John Zorn - "The Bribe" (snap...snap...snap...)


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Masada Box
Date: 22 Sep 1998 03:43:11 EDT


In a message dated 9/21/98 11:29:29 PM, [e-mail] wrote:

<<sorry, maybe i've missed something but i've worked in records stores for 6
years (yes one that carry most tzadik stuff) and have ner seen tzadik release
a box set before. have they? if it were to have all the material, and then
some it seems tzadik prices would dictate something upwards of $400, which
would relegate it to a few choice borders stores and major city jazz stores.
doesn't seem like a very profitable prospect to me. are you guys really sure
that would ever happen?>>

well, there was the Parachute Box, which was 6 CDs. I'd guess that a 10-CD set
of previously released Masada material would sell for somewhere between $100
and $120. I can't imagine that too many would sell, but maybe I'm wrong.

Jon
NP: Morphogenesis-Stromatolites (Vintage Electronic Records). Recommended for
fans of AMM and MEV.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DR S WILKIE <[e-mail]>
Subject:       Re: Terrible News
Date: 22 Sep 1998 08:38:25 GMT0BST

While we're on tasteful music (thanks Keith), I should just mention
that the great Kenny G's 48 minute one-note feat (reported on THIS
list!) has been challenged by Joel Dorn who, in the notes to Aces:
Back To Back (4 album Roland Kirk set on 32 Jazz), claims that Kirk
blew one note for just over two hours at Ronnie Scott's London in the
company of some guys from the Guinness Book Of Records who
subsequently quibbled about it.  According to Dorn, Kirk really hated
those guys.  I can't confirm that it was the McWhirters, but I kind
of hope so!

Kirk may not have sold 40 million albums, but he made a hell of a lot!

Sean W

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DR S WILKIE <[e-mail]>
Subject:       Re: C Melody sax
Date: 22 Sep 1998 11:09:16 GMT0BST

I believe Frankie Trumbauer used to play one.

Sean W
"keepin' 'em short"

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Geoff S Gersh)
Subject: Dialogues
Date: 22 Sep 1998 09:25:41 -0400

Straylight Dialogues w/ Elliot Levin & Rick Iannacone
Monday Sept. 28th  9 and 11pm in the Alterknit Theatre at the Knitting
Factory

The ambient, avant world improv. trio Straylight, featuring Jason
Finkelman (berimbau,
riti, percussion), Charles Cohen (Buchla Music Easel), and Geoff Gersh
(guitar) are joined by special guests  Elliott Levin and Rick Iannacone,
two of Philadelphia's leading
improvisors.
Elliott Levin's (saxophone, flutes) musical and poetic inspirations are
drawn,
in part, from performances with modern innovators Cecil Taylor and Dennis
Charles, while the funk and international flavor of Rick Iannacone's
(guitar)
playing reflect recent collaborations with Jamaaladeen Tacuma and
SamulNori.
Together they are long time musical partners and founding members of the
creative music units New Ghost and Interplay.

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DR S WILKIE <[e-mail]>
Subject:       Re: Bassy
Date: 22 Sep 1998 13:23:44 GMT0BST

Brian,

I remember Laswell and Brotzmann's Low Life being fairly unbearable
...

Sean W

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DR S WILKIE <[e-mail]>
Subject:       Re: Bacharach versions
Date: 22 Sep 1998 13:26:44 GMT0BST

BJOERN,

Billy Jenkins: (Not) Close To You on East/West Now Wear The Same Vest
The middle eight is done in 11/8.  But it's best heard live.

Sean W

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "hijk" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Giuffre - Free Fall
Date: 22 Sep 1998 11:17:36 -0400

For those of you who haven't seen it yet:
Jimmy Giuffre' Free Fall has just been reissued by Columbia/Legacy.
Zorn counts it among his favorites and says it "kicks ass."



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "M. Lewis" <[e-mail]>
Subject: collecting music
Date: 22 Sep 1998 07:31:08 -0600

>Am I imagining it, or are some of you more interested in
"collecting"rather >than actually listening to and enjoying the music?

i for one have most of zorn as well as almost all of zappa and i can tell
you that each is a "collection" as well as a library.
that being said i have to admit that most of it does not get listened to,
because a lot of it isn't what you would call "enjoyable", and it depends
on what mood you are in as well as other factors...
hmmm... ya know, maybe i should sell some cd's that don't get any
mileage... if anyone on the list is interested in some zappa or zorn (or
other related) email me privately to get a list...

-louie

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jack Blanton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: masada 10; etc.
Date: 22 Sep 1998 12:42:47 -0400

I have a vague memory that the series was supposed to be one album for
every leter in the Hebrew alphabet.  I think that there are around 22 or so
letters but I'm not real sure.  Does anybody else remember hearing this?

Jack Blanton
[e-mail]



At 02:18 PM 9/20/98 +0000, you wrote:
>you wrote:
>> Charles Gillett wrote:
>> >    The last track, apparently the last studio Masada track we'll
>>              ===============================================
>> > hear,
>>
>> what's the story behind this? did you hear this form reliable sources?
>
>   Well, it's been the rumor for some time--nothing really official,
>just people on rec.music.bluenote saying that they talked to Zorn or
>Douglas or whoever after a Masada show and it being passed along that
>10 would be the last.
>
>   However, Forced Exposure (www.forcedexposure.com) quotes the
>promotional material for Masada 10 as saying:
>
>"The final installment of one of the most popular and provocative series
>in all of modern music! John Zorn's Masada music is an extraordinary
>blend of up-to-the-minute improvisation and an ongoing sense of Jewish
>history and artistic expression. Masada 10 will be the last in this
>historic series of studio recordings."
>
>That's all I know.  Zorn can always change his mind, I suppose.
>
>
>-- Charles
>
>
>-
>
>
>
Jack Blanton
[e-mail]


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Masada Box
Date: 22 Sep 1998 12:45:59 -0400

>what gets me is the marketing involved.  If they (Tzadik) know they're
>going to release a set and they know exactly what will be on it, what's the
>hold up?  Go ahead and release it.  It seems like they're waiting for
>people to buy up 10 before they do it.  Now maybe it's a annoying
>contractual thing with DIW but it still sucks for us.

Very likely it has something to do with the fact that in the last decade or
so, Japanese prices (typically 3,000 yen for CD albums by Japanese artists,
2,500 yen for albums licensed from foriegn sources) are so high that
imports in Japanese stores are significantly cheaper than domestic
releases.

The higher prices (in fact, I think that they are fixed in some way, but
I've never quite understood the system) mean that Japanese companies will
typically spend far more on packaging than their Western conterparts will
(compare Avant/DIW packaging with the second rate printing used on Tzadik
releases).  And, most typically, the Japanese releases will carry bonus
tracks - all in an effort to stay competitive with cheaper foreign imports.

Also common to Japanese deals is an exclusivity clause - 3 years is quite
typical.  (Perhaps the dates listed on the "obi" wrappers of Japenese discs
refers to this?)  As far as I know, these exclusivity deals usually just
prevent non-Japanese versions from entering the Japanese market - I
wouldn't think that Japanese companies are usually that concerned with
their non-Japanese sales.  At least, in the world of pop music that would
seem to be the case.  Perhaps it is different with jazz releases.  I know
for a fact that Trattoria (sublabel of Polystar run by Cornelius) has been
ignoring requests from quite a few, admittedly small, distributors in the
West for years.  Which is to say that the Japanese market is by no means a
small and insignificant thing.

Of course, all this is subject to change if the Yen continues in the
direction it's been going in the last year - I think UK prices may already
be higher...(and if you want to talk about gimmickry, why don't you check
out some "two part CD singles")

Alexander

Radio Khartoum.           http://www.sirius.com/~xander/rk



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "gschwend d. atelier" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Masada Box
Date: 22 Sep 1998 19:43:23 +0000

[e-mail] wrote:
>
 mean that Japanese companies will
> typically spend far more on packaging than their Western conterparts will
> (compare Avant/DIW packaging with the second rate printing used on Tzadik
> releases).


does anyone else on the list feel that tzadik uses 2nd rate printing on
its releases?

i've been working as a producer at a graphic designers place for some
time, and all of us here at the office are always astonished at how
outstandingly excellent tzadik's artwork is, and how well the printing
is done. (one thing i must admit though, especially in the filmworks
series, the writing on the back of the cd sleeves is often near to
impossible to read; but that's because the colours of the letters are
badly chosen.)

patRice

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re[2]: Masada Box
Date: 22 Sep 1998 13:58:37 -0500




     patRice wrote:

>i've been working as a producer at a graphic designers place for some
>time, and all of us here at the office are always astonished at how
>outstandingly excellent tzadik's artwork is, and how well the printing
>is done. (one thing i must admit though, especially in the filmworks
>series, the writing on the back of the cd sleeves is often near to
>impossible to read; but that's because the colours of the letters are
>badly chosen.)

Just guessing, but I always assumed that was done either out of some perverse
desire to "match" the "unlistenability" of some of the music or simply because,
say, silver print looks pretty cool on a red/green solarized image.

But I entirely agree that the design in general on Tzadik releases is never
short of interesting, often gorgeous; Ikue Mori does striking work. The main
qualitative difference between Tzadik and Avant appears, to me, to be the
latter's use of finer quality paper stock.

For me, as I almost always am buying records which I haven't heard previously,
often by artists unfamiliar to me, package design does sometimes strongly
influence the decision. A recent example was John Wall's 'Fractuur', which comes
in a seductively heavy, linen-bound case; I find there tends to be a pretty
strong correlation between design and the musical substance contained therein
and, in Wall's case, this proved very correct--an outstanding release.

Brian Olewnick





-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Masada Box
Date: 22 Sep 1998 14:47:34 -0400

To clarify the disparaging remarks I made about the look of Tzadik releases
earlier, I suppose I wouldn't criticize designs themselves so much, but the
execution.  Perhaps it's just that the designs are too ambitious for their
printer?  I adore subtlety, but many (perhaps all) of the Tzadik discs I
own seem murky and uneven in their print quality.  The white text on the
reverse of the covers is often more clear in places than in others, the
metalic outsides often seem to have been worn away at.  And in general, the
fonts are too fine for the printing resolution.

On the other hand, none of the Avant/DIW discs I have seem to show up the
limits of the printing techniques used.  Never murky, never having the dots
of the screen seeming larger than the skinny parts of the fonts.  Not that
the design is as consistent as the Tzadik designs (the last Misha
Mengelberg disc being particularly boring, and others, well, I can't even
remember...), but then again there was some lovely use of matte and glossy
surfaces on one or the other Naked City disc, and the printing on the disc
itself for Mori's "Painted Desert" has to be the most successful use of a
photographic image on a CD I've ever seen.  (Perhaps, even, the only one I
ever thought looked good?)

Getting back to the original topic at hand, I forgot to mention in my other
post that I'm in NYC this week, and I'm looking forward to finally seeing
Masada on Thursday at Tonic.

Alexander

Radio Khartoum.           http://www.sirius.com/~xander/rk



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Christian Heslop" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: collecting music
Date: 22 Sep 1998 12:19:53 -0700


Speaking as someone who is definitely not a collector, I think that there
some very concrete rationalizations for collection that do not fall under a
completely acquisitonal motivation. All musicians and composers produce a
body of work that varies in quality and essence. Over time prodigious
musicians will produce an ouvre which may range quite dramatically over the
spectrum of good to bad conservative to exploratory etc. Those of us
interested in music and the making of music enrich our understandings by
listening to a musicians entire output regardless of the "value" of a
single piece within it. If you believe otherwise it may be reasonable to
say then that you should only keep in your music library those pieces and
performances that represent a musician's best work. But I would rather have
transitional and mediocre pieces of a grand puzzle than the finest release
ever from Collective Soul or Loverboy.
----------
> From: M. Lewis <[e-mail]>
> To: zorn list <[e-mail]>
> Subject: collecting music
> Date: Tuesday, September 22, 1998 6:31 AM
>
> >Am I imagining it, or are some of you more interested in
> "collecting"rather >than actually listening to and enjoying the music?
>
>
> -

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Paul Audino <[e-mail]>
Subject: Lili Boniche Discs Available in the US
Date: 22 Sep 1998 14:09:49 -0500 (CDT)


Hello,

Anyone in the United States looking for the two new APC discs by Lili
Boniche, _Alger, Alger_ and _Boniche Dub_, are directed to the APC store
in New York City,  [phone].

Both discs are co-produced by Bill Laswell.  When I called today, the shop
had them in stock for about $35 for both.  International customers are
directed to the listing of shops found on the APC website, www.apc.fr

Out 2 Lunch With Lunchmeat,

Paul
[e-mail]

  GROOVE
----------
One Nation



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Paul Audino <[e-mail]>
Subject: MatSonOnLine 11 - 1998 September (fwd)
Date: 22 Sep 1998 14:24:13 -0500 (CDT)


This just in...

---------- Forwarded message ----------

MATERIALI SONORI NEWS ON LINE 11 - 1998 September
___________________________________________________

<non-relevant content snipped>

UPCOMING RELEASES

JOHN ZORN  .  SONORA  - book + cd - edited by Walter Rovere & Carla Chiti
This 150-page book contains essays and interviews by Eugene Chadbourne, Franco
Minganti, Alberto Pezzotta, Claudio Canal, Carla Chiti, Walter Rovere and an
analysis of the Theatre of Musical Optics by Ela Troyano and Ruggero Bianchi.
Also included are writings on cinema by John Zorn and his complete discography.
The enclosed CD features rarities and unpublished tracks by JOHN ZORN with
EUGENE CHADBOURNE, POLLY BRADFIELD and 2000 STATUTES.

Out 2 Lunch With Lunchmeat,

Paul
[e-mail]


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Matthew Ross Davis <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: collecting music
Date: 22 Sep 1998 17:42:15 -0400 (EDT)

> >Am I imagining it, or are some of you more interested in
> "collecting"rather >than actually listening to and enjoying the music?

You seem to imply they are mutually exclusive.

Having a good music library is equivalent to having a good literature
library, IMHO. As the spouse of an archivist, I must say that I have a
very hard time getting rid of ANY music I buy, and I'm always wanting
more. Not because I'm a "completist" by any stretch, but that I'm
genuinely interested in the music, and interested in having it in my
library.

| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | m - a - t - t - h - e - w | r - o - s - s | d - a - v - i - s | |
| | http://www.artswire.org/mrd | | | | | | | UMD school of music | |
| | m-e-t-a-t-r-o-n p-r-e-s-s | | | http://www.artswire.org/comma | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:    William York <[e-mail]>
Subject: Cadence/Masada (last one)
Date: 22 Sep 1998 13:36:10 -0400 (EDT)

> I also find it odd to suggest that the magazine has an aesthetic orthodoxy
> at work. Having been the recipient of far too many hard-bop discs to
> review in these recent months, I can tell you that I don't subscribe to
> this notion (which isn't to say that I haven't liked some of these discs).

But they do spell jazz with a capital "J", although for a jazz magazine I
guess that's what you'd expect.  I realize this sounds stupid, since I
subscribed to this magazine because I listen to a lot of what is
considered jazz.  But, I'm sure some of these musicians don't like to be
called "jazz" musicians, even if they do have their CDs sent to Cadence.
So I guess I'm not saying there's an aesthetic orthodoxy at work, for me
personnally to judge some things from the viewpoint of jazz or "creative
improvised music" exclusively is too narrow or limiting.

  But as for Masada, and I'm not really a Masada freak, I've just got 2 of
their discs - but how much of it is really jazz?  Not the melodies or
harmonies, not the rhythms (most of the time).  I think its mostly the
context or instrumentation that makes it seem so , although of course
there is a heavy jazz influence, obviously obviously.

  It makes m think of Eugene Chadbourne's country improv stuff - nobody
calls that exotica, but to me it makes perfect sense to do that, and seems
perfectly natural (but I'm from North Carolina).  As for all of the recent
Jewish/ Eastern stuff, I can't say whether its exotica or not.  I
don't know anything about Jewish culture, whether people grow up
hearing this music or not.  Maybe people from New York would think the
same thing about Chadbourne, that its exoitca or artificial (or maybe
the reverse of exotica since country is low class music...).  I really
don't know, that's what I mean about trying to determine whether
something is truly authentic.

  So even if some of the people playing Jewish or Eastern or music now
didn't grow up with it, well I'm sure plenty of hard bop musicians didn't
hear that stuff until they were maybe 15 or so before listening to jazz.
So what's the difference?  I'm sure plenty of people think jazz is exotic
in a certain way.

  No one knows what someone's motivation for playing a certain kind of
music is, so for a critic or anyone to try to say what their motivations
are is unfair.  What matters is what it SOUNDS like, and to me there is
a lot of jazz, blues, alternative country, Brit Pop or whatever else that
sounds more forced and inauthentic than some of the Eastern jazz being
played.  I don't like all the eastern stuff, there sure is a lot of it
coming out, but I don't think its fair to say its automatically artificial
or faux-exotic for people to be playing it.  I think Dick Dale's
"Misirlou" for example could be considered in the same way, but now its
just called "Surf Music".  Its an established sound that probably was
criticized the same way back then, who knows.

 Personally, I think that Zorn has released far too
> much material in recent years, much of it sub-par. But one of the things I
> appreciate about ALL his work is a relentless questioning of the musical
> taken-for-granted. When we start crowning his work with the
> fawning adulation usually reserved for the Marsalis-clones, then we're
> falling into some sort of deep irony.

Yes I agree.  I try to be extra critical of Zorn and all these folks since
they put out so much stuff, otherwise I'd end up buying a lot more CDs
than I could afford or listen to.  I even sold my copy of Masada 6 on this
site, and have little interest in many of the things he's done, but saying
you don't like something is different than saying something is a cheap
gimmick or is done out of some ulterior motivation is a different thing.
And it wasn't just Walter Horn's review I was referring to, I only brought
it up because I'd seen the same arguments a couple of other times as well.

Anyway, I know there's (at least) 2 Cadence writers on the list so I'll be
more careful in the future!

Hope this makes at least SOME since.

WY


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Scott Handley" <[e-mail]>
Subject: zorn: publisher (plus: John Wall)
Date: 22 Sep 1998 15:38:56 PDT

This may be old news, but I ran into David ROsenboom's home page while
shuffling thru the very nice Electronic Music FOundation site
(www.emf.org).  In the bibliography of one paper, he cites his own work
as follows:

David Rosenboom, "Propositional Music, On Emergent Properties in
Evolving Musical Languages," (written for a book of composers'
writings to be published by (New York: John Zorn) and also Leonardo, (
in press).

Very interesting, no?  I've always been curious why he hasn't written or
at least PUBLISHED more, but the Tzadik output is perhaps reason enough.
I'm still hunting for that one article Patrice cited in his
dico-bibliography.

Also: what label is John Wall's FRACTUUR on, and is there an online
place for me to get hold of it?

thanks

--s

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Caleb Deupree <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: collecting music
Date: 22 Sep 1998 18:42:06 -0400

>>>>> "Matthew" == Matthew Ross Davis <[e-mail]> writes:

    >> Am I imagining it, or are some of you more interested in
    >> "collecting"rather than actually listening to and enjoying the
    >> music?

    Matthew> You seem to imply they are mutually exclusive.

    Matthew> Having a good music library is equivalent to having a
    Matthew> good literature library, IMHO. As the spouse of an
    Matthew> archivist, I must say that I have a very hard time
    Matthew> getting rid of ANY music I buy, and I'm always wanting
    Matthew> more. Not because I'm a "completist" by any stretch, but
    Matthew> that I'm genuinely interested in the music, and
    Matthew> interested in having it in my library.

The problem I ran into with collecting was that there was *way* too
much interesting music to collect it all, and now I at least try to
get something by a new artist every time I place an order.

Every artist I've ever considered collecting has put out some
redundant material, if not some real stinkers.  For every $$ I spend
on a stinker, that's some piece of new and interesting music I won't
get to hear.


---
Caleb T. Deupree
;; Opinions...  funny thing about opinions, they can change.

Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers.
(Pablo Picasso)


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Caleb Deupree <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: John Wall
Date: 22 Sep 1998 18:46:05 -0400

>>>>> "Scott" == Scott Handley <[e-mail]> writes:

    Scott> Also: what label is John Wall's FRACTUUR on, and is there
    Scott> an online place for me to get hold of it?

It's on Utter Psalm, and I've seen it both at Wayside and Anomalous.
---
Caleb T. Deupree
;; Opinions...  funny thing about opinions, they can change.

Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers.
(Pablo Picasso)


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Charles Gillett" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Masada 10/ Sonny Clark Mem'l/ new Zorn
Date: 22 Sep 1998 19:38:49 +0000

On Mon, 21 Sep 1998 09:31:40 -0500, Eric Saidel <[e-mail]> wrote:
> And Charles Gillett wrote:
> >    Regarding Mr. Horn and his Masada review: I didn't like it, nor did
> > I like his trashing of Uri Caine's Mahler disc, but then I rooted
> > through my back issues and found that he just doesn't like any downtown
> > NYC stuff.
>
> That's not clear.  His review implies that he likes Zorn's more radical
> stuff.  He also is very positive about Zorn's abilities as a player.  (More
> positive than I would be!)

   His review says that he considers Masada to be conservative compared
to his game pieces and such, which doesn't sound like an endorsement
either way--just a statement.  I think his comments on Zorn's playing
are nicely positive without being effusive--he says "Zorn plays as well
as I've heard him."

   I don't have problems with those statements.  I have a perhaps nit-
picky problem with the fact that he calls _Tet_ part of the "Radical
Jewish Culture" line--perhaps it is in a grand sense, but it's not part
of the actual, existing "Radical Jewish Culture" series.

   I have a problem with his dismissal of klezmer as a genre (it's
Vaudeville and wedding music, apparently not worth hearing for that).
That he the Jewish music he wants to hear is the "weird, almost
tuneless chanting engaged in by those bobbing males in various
congregations who are entrusted with contacting Yaweh in that (to me)
bizarre manner" seems vaguely insulting, like he thinks a Jewish
service is some kind of freakshow for his entertainment.  Not being
Jewish myself, I can't speak for this (is he referring to cantorial
singing?), so perhaps he's dead on and this is just a mere statement
of fact.

   I have a problem with his description of Masada's music as nice,
tame exotica, because it doesn't seem meaningful to me, just insulting.
He goes on about how the tunes are well written and much of the playing
is superb, but then says that it can't be good music because it's
related to an ethnic/political cause.  He also essentially says Zorn is
doing it for the money, and compares Masada to Herb Alpert's Tijuana
Brass.  What is he saying?  That Zorn's attempt to extend what is
considered klezmer according to his vision is the same as using a faux
ethnic sound to catch the ear of listless pop consumers?  Is he saying
that traditions can't be extended?  Are Bartok's folk-derived works
"tame exotica for crossover listeners?"  He could say that Zorn has
failed in his attempt to create and extend a tradition.  However, he
seems proud of the ignorance that would prevent him from making such a
determination.

    In terms of downtowners vs. Walter Horn, it seems he always has a
few good things to say, but also always adds a few cuts about how
they're all a bunch of smarty-pants.  Maybe it's right, but it's
still annoying.

    His reviews of Bailey and Parker CDs are good, for the most part.

> > I don't know why he continues to review the albums, but I
> > guess Cadence reviewers don't have a lot of control over what they get.
>
> Bingo!

    I know a guy who's getting really sick of reviewing organ jazz
discs.


-- Charles

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Charles Gillett" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Collectors vs. appreciates: qu'est-ce le difference?
Date: 22 Sep 1998 19:47:42 +0000

Even though he told me not to read it,
On Mon, 21 Sep 1998 14:52:07 PDT, "Scott Handley" wrote:
> An issue which I've thought about stems from Brian Eno's comment to the
> effect that the problem w/ jazz is that so much of it just sounds like
> more jazz.  I see his point, and to an extent I agree with it.  I have a
> difficult time seeing why someone needs every Hank Mobley album, or for
> that matter every Masada album.

   I think Eno's comment is very strange.  If you enjoy Masada, then
I imagine you enjoy the general sound (the "more Masada"), and what
keeps you listening are the details, the variations and permutations
of those scales and timbres.  This applies to Mobley, or to that 50th
version of "I'll Remember April."  Of course jazz sounds like more
jazz; romantic music sounds like more romantic music, a realistic
still life looks like other realistic still lifes.  What's important
are the little differences, and I'm surprised that someone who's made
a big part of his name on little differences wouldn't understand that.


-- Charles


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Charles Gillett" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re[2]: Masada Box
Date: 22 Sep 1998 19:58:33 +0000

On Tue, 22 Sep 98 13:58:37 -0500, brian_olewnick wrote:
> For me, as I almost always am buying records which I haven't heard previously,
> often by artists unfamiliar to me, package design does sometimes strongly
> influence the decision.

   I find this sometimes comes into play even with familiar artists--I
had to stop and think for a minute before I got the Parker/Guy/Lytton
_At The Vortex_ on Emanem, after I saw the dorky photograph plopped in
the middle of a field of hot pink.

   I'm not going to be able to see Masada at Tonic as I thought I would
three months ago.  I am, however, hoping to make it to Chicago on Oct.
11th to see the Ab Baars trio and Misha Mengelberg trio.

   Last night I saw the opening show of the Lounge Lizards tour.  John
Lurie seemed quite happy and chatty, even though he thought the playing
was a bit rough.  It was loud and powerful stuff.  I remember Doug
Wieselman's (only) clarinet solo as a particular highlight, but overall
I was impressed by everybody in the band.


-- Charles

I'd be listening to Fred Lonberg-Holm's _Personal Scratch_, were I
listening to music at this point.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: stephen drury <[e-mail]>
Subject: donatoni concert in boston
Date: 22 Sep 1998 21:39:21 -0400

on the italian-jazz-12tone-avant garde-soundscape frontier:
a concert featuring music by composer franco donatoni ("Lumen", "Rima" for
solo piano, and "Hot" for swingin' ensemble), along with music by cage (some
of Sonatas and Interludes for prepared piano) and bartok ("Contrasts") at
Paine Hall, Harvard U. Music Bldg, 8pm saturday sept. 26.  free and open to
the public


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (ashley capps)
Subject: Re: collecting music
Date: 22 Sep 1998 22:58:30 -0400

>> >Am I imagining it, or are some of you more interested in
>> "collecting"rather >than actually listening to and enjoying the music?
>
>You seem to imply they are mutually exclusive.

That's not at all what I intended. I was responding to Scott Handley's
delight that he had only purchased one of the Masada discs, since they are
ultimately to be released as a box set. As opposed to the pleasure of
having enjoyed them as they've been released during the past few years, it
just struck me as a curious attitude - but maybe it's just that I'm not
that good at delayed gratification.
As an admittedly extreme and absurd example, can you imagine someone who is
thrilled that they haven't bought any John Coltrane Quartet records on
Impulse over the past thirty five years so that they can buy the box set
coming out soon without duplicating any previous purchases. For me, it
seems to miss the point.

>Having a good music library is equivalent to having a good literature
>library, IMHO. As the spouse of an archivist, I must say that I have a
>very hard time getting rid of ANY music I buy, and I'm always wanting
>more. Not because I'm a "completist" by any stretch, but that I'm
>genuinely interested in the music, and interested in having it in my
>library.

The ludicrous number of records/CDs (not to mention books) that I have in
my house would assure you that we're kindred spirits, Matthew.

Ashley






-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "schwitterZ" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: collecting music
Date: 22 Sep 1998 19:29:02 -0700

Well I'm not buying ANY recordings because in my next life they'll have
developed implants whcih will make all of the music ever recorded available
at the flip of a twitch.

s~Z




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: collecting music
Date: 23 Sep 1998 00:35:27 EDT


In a message dated 9/22/98 11:06:14 PM, [e-mail] wrote:

<<Well I'm not buying ANY recordings because in my next life they'll have
developed implants whcih will make all of the music ever recorded available
at the flip of a twitch.>>

does anyone know if this will include an original cast recording of Stomp?

Jon

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (nathalie claeys)
Subject: recordshops in Tokyo/Osaka
Date: 23 Sep 1998 10:26:43 +0200

>Which is to say that the Japanese market is by no means a
>small and insignificant thing.

Sorry to post this unrelated question but I would like to know if there are
any good recordshops in Japan that I should need to pay a visit. I am
visiting Tokyo and Osaka (among many many other). As I have enough *okane*
to spend on several CD, I'ld like to know about shops that stock records
like The Ruins, Boredoms,... Oh yes, anything else besides the Boredoms and
Ruins , concerts or CDs,  that I need to check out?

Nathalie


np Continued Story/Daniel Johnston


"The night comes crawling in on all fours
sucking up my dreams through the floor..."



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Taylor McLaren <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: collecting music
Date: 23 Sep 1998 08:14:07 -0400


MEEP! ashley capps wrote:
>That's not at all what I intended. I was responding to Scott Handley's
>delight that he had only purchased one of the Masada discs, since they are
>ultimately to be released as a box set. As opposed to the pleasure of
>having enjoyed them as they've been released during the past few years, it
>just struck me as a curious attitude - but maybe it's just that I'm not
>that good at delayed gratification.
Boxed sets have always sort of bothered me that way... on the one hand,
they appear to be bought almost solely by crazed fans who can't get enough
of a particular artist's work (casual newcomers, I'm betting, rely more on
best-of releases or the recommendations of others who are more familiar
with the work in question); on the other, those same fans likely own almost
everything that appears on those sets (hence all of that damned
unreleased-and-live material). As somebody who is new to Zorn's work in
general, I'm hesitant to explore Masada immediately because it's quite
possible that I'll like it enough to want to buy the entire set when it is
released... why spend all of that extra money now? (This is hardcore
student reasoning.)
  If nothing else, I'm at least looking forward to the time when all of the
crazed fans on this list start selling off the original releases for a
couple of bucks apiece in order to pay for the big ol' box... it'll make
dipping my toes into the project a whole lot more feasible than it is right
now.

-me cheap-ass bastard, you jane


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "dekater" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Bacharach covers
Date: 23 Sep 1998 16:55:53 +0200

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0054_01BDE713.06D291E0
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Kirk did als 'Alfie' on 'Now please don't you cry, beautiful Edith.

Jan Luyben

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    charset="iso-8859-1"
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<BODY bgColor=3D#b8b8b8>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Kirk did als 'Alfie' on 'Now please =
don't you=20
cry, beautiful Edith.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Jan =
Luyben</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0054_01BDE713.06D291E0--


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Stefan Verstraeten <[e-mail]>
Subject: where to get john wall ??????? Here your answer !!!!!!!
Date: 23 Sep 1998 17:15:10 +0200

> From: "Scott Handley" <[e-mail]>
> Subject: zorn: publisher (plus: John Wall)
> Also: what label is John Wall's FRACTUUR on, and is there an online
> place for me to get hold of it?

Dear Scott,
A good distributor is

http://www.manifoldrecords.com

They sell all the john wall discs.

Hopefully, this helps.
See ya

np: Bill Laswells' Jazzonia. Smooth, but I like it (BILL RULES)

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: David Keffer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Next-life implants
Date: 23 Sep 1998 12:16:47 -0400


>In a message dated 9/22/98 11:06:14 PM, [e-mail] wrote:
><<Well I'm not buying ANY recordings because in my next life they'll have
>developed implants whcih will make all of the music ever recorded available
>at the flip of a twitch.>>

In that case, I think I am going to avoid the next life altogether.
Think of the potential horrors:
Example 1.  The case of the accidental twitch while asleep.
Implant plays:  reveille (for solo bugle).
Example 2.  The case of the coy wink.
Implant plays random selection from "romantic song" database.
Example 3.  Worst of all, the case of a nervous tic.
Implant skips the record over and over and over and over...


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Benito Vergara" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: collecting music
Date: 23 Sep 1998 09:41:09 -0700

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail]
> [mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Taylor McLaren
> Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 1998 5:14 AM

>   If nothing else, I'm at least looking forward to the time when
> all of the
> crazed fans on this list start selling off the original releases for a
> couple of bucks apiece in order to pay for the big ol' box... it'll make
> dipping my toes into the project a whole lot more feasible than
> it is right
> now.

LOL! I thought of doing that when the Painkiller set came out -- but I
bought the collection (used) anyway. Turns out I didn't miss much with that
live set anyhow. =)

BTW, thanks to those who sent me their David S. Ware recommendations -- I
went ahead and picked up the latest album yesterday and I am absolutely
*floored.* Shooting up to my year-end list as we speak.

Later,
Ben

http://www.bigfoot.com/~bvergara/
ICQ# 12832406


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: collecting music
Date: 23 Sep 1998 13:22:01 EDT

Interesting thread here.  I used to worry about my buying binges and my ever-
growing collection of music- a lot of which i'll probably never listen to
again.  Then I started thinking- if I can keep the bills paid, keep a stash of
cash for the unforseen emergency that may pop up, and invest 15-20% of my
income for retirement, then why worry about the collection?

There are a few things i've noticed about the hard-core collector.  Some may
apply to people you know...all in fun of course...
1) Not only collects music, but collects record collecting magazines.
2) Has 56 different copies of Pink Floyd's _DSotM_, and is always on the
lookout for that ever-evasive copy on Senegal's Dakaar label...
3) Constantly bugs you about giving up your copy of Pink Floyd's DSotM_ on the
Dakaar label.
4) Can name all of the labels _DSotM_ has appeared, but can't tell you what
the name of the third song on _DSotM_ .
5) Has several unopened/mint copies of an LP/CD you covet, but won't
sell...but will trade for something- like your copy of Pink Floyd's _DSotM_ on
the Dakaar label- while constantly reminding you what a steal you're getting
in the trade.
6) Still owns (and uses) an all-in-one component stereo system.
7) Has their entire collection documented on 4 x 6 index cards.
8) Records their LPs on cassettes and plays them instead of subjecting their
vinyl to "further wear and tear."

So how many here have attained (or are getting close to...) collector's
critical mass- the point at which one owns more musical recordings than to
which he/she could possibly ever listen?

=dgasque=

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:    William York <[e-mail]>
Subject: Main/ Organum
Date: 23 Sep 1998 13:25:29 -0400 (EDT)

I've had the chance to listen to a few CDs by Main (who have some
connection to Zorn I guess through Godflesh and those guys), _Firmament
III_, _Firmament IV_, and _Deliquescence_, with my favorite being
_Firmament III_.  When I listened to these I thought of AMM (except the
Main stuff is more flattened out if that makes sense -more quiet humming
sounds and less industrial sounding noise), and then
looking through the Matchless catalogue in the CD I have there is a CD by
Organum which is said to include among others Keith Rowe, Jim O'Rourke
(what other O'Rourke could it be?) and somebody Hampson.  Is this the same
person as Robert Hampson from Main, and if so is the album worth me
dishing out $17 for?

Anyway I also find it interesting that folks like Hampson, James Plotkin,
and some other guys like this came out of the Earache thing and are now
doing this super-quiet stuff, although I haven't followed the in between
points that connect Napalm Death to Main.  As the drone guitar stuff goes,
it is for me preferable to the more indie rock derived stuff which working
at a college station you hear a lot of.

Just thought I'd share this...

Wy


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dan Hewins <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: collecting music
Date: 23 Sep 1998 13:02:17 -0500

On a seperate note... I don't know if I would consider myself a collector
or not.  I do have a fairly large number of CDs but I don't like to have
one's I'll never listen to.  Every once and a while I'll do a weed-out and
tape and sell back some CDs to the local used record shop.  What bugs me is
a certain record store here in St. Louis that seems to be a collectors'
shop rather than a listeners shop.  Now, I know 3.99 and 4.99 for a used LP
is pretty good but anything at that price at the collectors' shop sounds
crappy, while LPs at that price at another place in town sound fine to
great.  I have a problem with collecting for the sake of collecting and
especially collecting with the intention to sell later at a higher price.
Records are made to be listened to.  If you don't listen to them, what's
the point?  Mind you, this is not an accusation of anyone on the list, just
a general gripe.

Dan Hewins



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re[2]: collecting music
Date: 23 Sep 1998 13:46:01 -0500



dgasque wrote:

<snip>

>7) Has their entire collection documented on 4 x 6 index cards.

     No, but I do have them in a Lotus file at work!

>So how many here have attained (or are getting close to...) collector's
>critical mass- the point at which one owns more musical recordings than to
>which he/she could possibly ever listen?

     Long, long ago, probably when my record collection reached 200 or so,
     I actually felt guilty about the fact that there were records which I
     hadn't gotten around to (re)listening to in a long time. As I (like
     any good, anal record collector) filed my vinyl alphabetically by
     artist (and, bien sur, chronological within alphabetical) I started a
     tradition of simply listening through my collection, start to finish.
     As, in years since, I've pared and pruned the collection, winnowing
     out those items that had little or nothing of value, my current body
     of around 1600 items has a listen-cycle of 3 years or so (increasing
     all the time, of course).

     Kinda fun listening to nothing but Braxton for two months.

     Brian Olewnick
     (Currently annoying the spouse by having Otomo Yoshihide in the
     spinner for the last few days)

     PS. Happily, the closest I come to having anything remotely related to
     Pink Floyd in my home is that old collector's item: Ron Geesin's
     'Patruns'.



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Fwd: collecting music
Date: 23 Sep 1998 14:29:46 EDT

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In a message dated 98-09-23 13:25:43 EDT, you write:

 7) Has their entire collection documented on 4 x 6 index cards.
   >>

I'd venture to guess they're (we're?) at least up to a 5 1/4 floppy by now - a
used hand me down Atari most likely.....or maybe even.....a......Commodore!!!!

Dale.

PS: And I for one an definitely into the territory of owning way more discs
than I could ever possibly listen to.

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Spirer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: collecting music
Date: 23 Sep 1998 11:25:12 -0700

At 01:22 PM 9/23/98 -0400, [e-mail] wrote:

>There are a few things i've noticed about the hard-core collector...

There's a great novel about hard-core collectors, totally twisted, called
_Hunters and Gatherers_ by Geoff Nicholson.  Not specific to music
collectors, but probably of interest to some people on this list...


Jeff Spirer
B&W Photos: http://www.pomegranates.com/frame/spirer/
Color and B&W Photos: http://www.hyperreal.org/~jeffs/gallery.html
Axiom/Material: http://www.hyperreal.org/axiom/

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Chris Genzel)
Subject: Re: Celluloid
Date: 23 Sep 1998 20:09:27 +0200


> Jeff Spirer wrote:
>
>>> indicated that the material was licensed from Charly, which stands to
>>> reason.
>>
>> Charly isn't the originator, however.  They licensed it from The Music
>> Company, which owns the rights to Celluloid (along with Subharmonic) and
>> has done the licensing.
>
> Good grief.  The question then remains... are any of the artists who made the
> music seeing any money whatsoever for the continued life of their own work?
> (I saw the Charly CD pressing of Zorn/Bailey/Lewis "Yankees" for the first time
> day before yesterday and wondered the same thing...)  That you mention
> Subharmonic in the same sentence with the words "owns the rights to" makes me
> think the answer to my question is no...

 Anton Fier once told me that all money from the Celluloid re-issues (or was
 it the GoPals reissues..? I have to check) goes to Michael Beinhorn, but he
 didn't say why. Jeff??

 ---------------------------------------------
 *    Chris Genzel --- [e-mail]    *
 * Homepage & Herbie Hancock discography at: *
 *    http://home.t-online.de/home/stamil/   *
 ---------------------------------------------


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Chris Genzel)
Subject: Re: Bacharach covers
Date: 23 Sep 1998 20:09:26 +0200


 There's also a lovely cover of "Walk On By" on the Lenny White album "Renderers
 Of Spirit" (Hip Bop, 1997).

 Kind regards,
 - Chris.

 ---------------------------------------------
 *    Chris Genzel --- [e-mail]    *
 * Homepage & Herbie Hancock discography at: *
 *    http://home.t-online.de/home/stamil/   *
 ---------------------------------------------


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: David D Egan <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: collecting music
Date: 23 Sep 1998 11:51:06 -0700

[e-mail] wrote:
> So how many here have attained (or are getting close to...) collector's
> critical mass- the point at which one owns more musical recordings than
> to
> which he/she could possibly ever listen?
>
> =dgasque=
>
> -

I'm definitely at the point where I have more music than I can
reasonably listen to.  I have maybe 2000 items in my collection,
counting CDs, LPs, 45s, 78s, cassettes and DATs.  I buy things I don't
necessarily like sometimes just to complete a set, among other
semi-compulsive behaviors.  Tonight I'm going to a listening group which
covers Zorn-related music as well as other things, and last night I
picked out some things to bring.  The trouble is, I can't remember what
some of them sound like!  I'm playing some of them at work today so I
can appear knowledgeable to the group about the CDs I own.  Fortunately
my nearby office partners are out of town for a couple of days.  I'm not
sure they'd appreciate hearing what's on right now - Hex Kitchen, by
Ikue Mori.

- Dave

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: David D Egan <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: collecting music
Date: 23 Sep 1998 11:51:06 -0700

[e-mail] wrote:
> So how many here have attained (or are getting close to...) collector's
> critical mass- the point at which one owns more musical recordings than
> to
> which he/she could possibly ever listen?
>
> =dgasque=
>
> -

I'm definitely at the point where I have more music than I can
reasonably listen to.  I have maybe 2000 items in my collection,
counting CDs, LPs, 45s, 78s, cassettes and DATs.  I buy things I don't
necessarily like sometimes just to complete a set, among other
semi-compulsive behaviors.  Tonight I'm going to a listening group which
covers Zorn-related music as well as other things, and last night I
picked out some things to bring.  The trouble is, I can't remember what
some of them sound like!  I'm playing some of them at work today so I
can appear knowledgeable to the group about the CDs I own.  Fortunately
my nearby office partners are out of town for a couple of days.  I'm not
sure they'd appreciate hearing what's on right now - Hex Kitchen, by
Ikue Mori.

- Dave

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Chris Genzel)
Subject: Re: Bacharach covers
Date: 23 Sep 1998 20:09:26 +0200


 There's also a lovely cover of "Walk On By" on the Lenny White album "Renderers
 Of Spirit" (Hip Bop, 1997).

 Kind regards,
 - Chris.

 ---------------------------------------------
 *    Chris Genzel --- [e-mail]    *
 * Homepage & Herbie Hancock discography at: *
 *    http://home.t-online.de/home/stamil/   *
 ---------------------------------------------


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Michael Howes <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: where to get john wall ??????? Here your answer !!!!!!!
Date: 23 Sep 1998 13:38:19 -0700

>> Also: what label is John Wall's FRACTUUR on, and is there an online
>> place for me to get hold of it?
>
>Dear Scott,
>A good distributor is
>
>http://www.manifoldrecords.com
>
>They sell all the john wall discs.

 Hmm...I didn't see Fractuur in Manifolds catalog...the only place I know
of to
find Fractuur is...
http://www.state51.co.uk/motion/

 I still can't believe I haven't sent my $$$ of to get it....it's been
months....

mike
[e-mail]



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Chris Genzel)
Subject: Re: Celluloid
Date: 23 Sep 1998 20:09:27 +0200


> Jeff Spirer wrote:
>
>>> indicated that the material was licensed from Charly, which stands to
>>> reason.
>>
>> Charly isn't the originator, however.  They licensed it from The Music
>> Company, which owns the rights to Celluloid (along with Subharmonic) and
>> has done the licensing.
>
> Good grief.  The question then remains... are any of the artists who made the
> music seeing any money whatsoever for the continued life of their own work?
> (I saw the Charly CD pressing of Zorn/Bailey/Lewis "Yankees" for the first time
> day before yesterday and wondered the same thing...)  That you mention
> Subharmonic in the same sentence with the words "owns the rights to" makes me
> think the answer to my question is no...

 Anton Fier once told me that all money from the Celluloid re-issues (or was
 it the GoPals reissues..? I have to check) goes to Michael Beinhorn, but he
 didn't say why. Jeff??

 ---------------------------------------------
 *    Chris Genzel --- [e-mail]    *
 * Homepage & Herbie Hancock discography at: *
 *    http://home.t-online.de/home/stamil/   *
 ---------------------------------------------


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Paul Audino <[e-mail]>
Subject: Jazzonia In Stock At CDNow
Date: 23 Sep 1998 15:46:40 -0500 (CDT)


I swear I don't work for any of these places that I've been posting about
for the past few days!  Just helping people track some of this shit
down...

CDNow (http://www.cdnow.com) lists Bill Laswell's _Jazzonia_ as currently
being in stock for $11.99.

Out 2 Lunch With Lunchmeat,

Paul
[e-mail]

  GROOVE
----------
One Nation



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (David J. Polak)
Subject: Re: Fwd: collecting music
Date: 23 Sep 1998 17:34:13 -0400 (EDT)

>
>I'd venture to guess they're (we're?) at least up to a 5 1/4 floppy by now - a
>used hand me down Atari most likely.....or maybe even.....a......Commodore!!!!
>
Hey, what's wrong with Commodores? I am using one right not to send this
message. There's nothing wrong with antiquated equipment.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Martin Wisckol)
Subject: collecting masada
Date: 23 Sep 1998 15:13:49 -0700

I am fascinated by the collections of others, especially those that are
massive, or at least have a focus and are completist to some degree.
(This aside from the simple pleasure of seeing something interesting
that I haven't heard and throwing it on.) And I myself have gotten the
bug now and then to head off in that completist direction for a
favorite artist -- but almost inevitably end up with material that is
disappointing and subsequently gathers dust while I play the "better"
stuff. And also, like other types of binges, it is often followed by a
certain emptiness -- and not just in the wallet.

These days, I take some risks but generally want to find material I
really dig to keep the collection (and home airwaves) fresh. I like
getting to the bottom of a musician's essence, but there's a point of
diminishing returns -- and there's too much beautiful music out there
to explore. Perhaps this is why, after jumping on the Zorn ship a dozen
years or so ago (Morricone, Spillane, News for Lulu, Naked City,
Torture Garden, Yankees, Sonny Clark etc etc) I've backed off in recent
times. In fact, I don't have a single Masada (hoping one will turn up
second hand but no such luck yet).

Which brings me to this simple question: If I were to pick up three
Masada's, which ones would you recommend?

(Forgive me for not taking note over the weeks which people dug most.
Also, obviously, used Masadas will be more likely to turn up if and
when the box is released, but I'm ready for some now.)

Thanks.

Completism strikes me as a fetish. I mean, wouldn't it be fun to
collect every version of Bird/Diz doing "Tunisia" at Carnegie Hall? ...
I'm glad to have Dean Benedetti's Bird recordings but I'd be just as
happy if I only had the better half of them....

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: collecting music
Date: 23 Sep 1998 18:14:51 EDT

In a message dated 9/23/98 2:29:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Tag Yr It writes:

I sed:

<< 7) Has their entire collection documented on 4 x 6 index cards.
    >>

 I'd venture to guess they're (we're?) at least up to a 5 1/4 floppy by now -
a used hand me down Atari most likely.....or maybe
even.....a......Commodore!!!!
  >>

A computer?  You've gotta be kidding!  It took the re-mastering of the Beatles
catalog before he'd consider buying a CD player!  As you can probably tell,
i'm referring to a close, yet un-named friend of mine...

=dgasque=

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "hijk" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE:RAYMOND SCOTT
Date: 23 Sep 1998 18:37:59 -0400

There was a collection on Stash, but I think it's out of pint.
If you like R.S. check out the two Carl Stalling Projects on WB.

Jeff Kent
[e-mail]



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "David J. Keffer" <[e-mail]>
Subject: recent goodies & a thought on guilty relistening
Date: 23 Sep 1998 19:41:17 -0400


I picked up a couple records recently and not so recently that I haven't
seen reviewed on the list and I thought I would post my thoughts.

King Pawns - Uchihashi Kazuhisa (guitars and roland) and Hans Reichel
(daxophone and guitars) - Zenbei, ZEN 006, 1998.
This is sweet little disc that features Reichel mostly on his daxophone
accompanied by Kazuhisa playing heavily electronically manipulated guitar.
It's fundamentally improv but sounds like they prepared and planned before
recording.  For Reichel fans, every daxophone cd is a delight and this duet
accompaniment gives the daxophone a new arena to play in.  Nice.
(Still, the premiere daxophone recording is "Shanghaied on Tor Road" on FMP.)
I don't know too much about Kazuhisa except that he's all over--Ground Zero,
France, Altered States, all kinds of compilations...and a 1991 recording which
is a duet with Reichel called "Sundown" on FMP and which is an altogether
more
improv improv than this new disc.

China Collage - Liu Sola (voice) and Wu Man (pipa) - AVANT, AVAN 046, 1996
This cd is a couple years old but is worth mentioning.  I think a lot of
people on the Zorn list are fans of the pipa player Min Xiao Fen based on
her disc on Asphodel.  They were disappointed (that was the general tone
of the reviews) with her duet with Derek Bailey on Avant and the "Six
Composers"
cd, also on Avant.  This pipa and voice cd should please them.  The cd
features some exquisite pipa playing and adds female voice.  Some of the songs
are just what you would want to hear from pipa and voice--very beautiful.

One thought on the idea of re-listening to records simply
because you feel guilty about owning them and not listening to them:
I like to think of a new cd as entertainment, like a new movie.
You pay about twice as much for a cd as to go to a movie but the
idea is the same:  entertainment.  Most people don't want to watch most
movies repeatedly, so why is there a compulsion to listen to cds
repeatedly?  (Unless, of course, the cd is on "stranded on the desert
isle with 10 cds" list.)

David "one-listen-and-to-the-shelf" K.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Brian Olewnick <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: recent goodies & a thought on guilty relistening
Date: 23 Sep 1998 20:09:32 -0400

David J. Keffer wrote:

> China Collage - Liu Sola (voice) and Wu Man (pipa) - AVANT, AVAN 046,

Yes, a fine album, one of my favorites from last year.
>
> One thought on the idea of re-listening to records simply
> because you feel guilty about owning them and not listening to them:
> I like to think of a new cd as entertainment, like a new movie.

Here, though, I part company. While, unfortunately, the vast majority of
movie releases do fall under the rubric, "entertainment", a few manage
to climb into that other realm known as, dare I say it?, art. I recently
re-watched (yep, I do that with movies) Bergman's 'Cries and
Whispers'--Art? yes indeed; entertainment? Uh, it's not quite
'Face-Off'. When I buy a music recording it's, generally, with the hope
that I'm purchasing a reproduction of a work of art. Obviously, this
doesn't always turn out to be the case and, just as obviously, many
works straddle or blur the line between the two. If someone found an
unknown Vermeer in their attic, would I look at it just once and walk
away? Hell no, I'd examine it as many times and as thoroughly as
possible. Why on earth would I be any less respectful of Cecil Taylor?

Brian Olewnick

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rick Lopez <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: recent goodies & a thought on guilty relistening
Date: 23 Sep 1998 20:17:49 -0300

David J. Keffer wrote:
>
> I like to think of a new cd as entertainment, like a new movie.

I like to think of a new CD as something that might Transform My Ass, or
as something that I can return to like a great book-- as brain and
spirit food. I can't really say I care that much for entertainment, or
being entertained. Hmmmm... am I reading this too literally?

> Most people don't want to watch most movies repeatedly,

Yeah, but, but... *Some movies* I could watch every week for the rest of
my life. *Most* movies, no-- but many-many other movies-- yes.

Maybe you need access to better movies &CDs? ;-)

okay,
RL
--
Marilyn Crispell, Sam Rivers, Matthew Shipp, David S. Ware, and Reggie
Workman discographies; Samuel Beckett Eulogy; Baseball & the 10,000
Things; Time Stops; etc., at--
http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Lang Thompson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Liliput
Date: 23 Sep 1998 22:57:36 -0400

A few years back there was a CD reissue of the complete output of Liliput.
Foolishly, I didn't buy it at the time so does anybody still have the
address of the label in Switzerland (?I think) or know of a US source?
Lang Thompson
http://www.tcf.ua.edu/wlt4

New at the Funhouse website:  Did Elvis Steal Rock 'n'
Roll?, The X-Files Movie Bites!, music reviews

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "David J. Keffer" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: a thought on guilty relistening
Date: 23 Sep 1998 23:11:58 -0400


Brian Olewnick wrote:
>While, unfortunately, the vast majority of
>movie releases do fall under the rubric, "entertainment", a few manage
>to climb into that other realm known as, dare I say it?, art. ...
>When I buy a music recording it's, generally, with the hope
>that I'm purchasing a reproduction of a work of art.

Rick Lopez wrote:
>I like to think of a new CD as something that might Transform My Ass, or
>as something that I can return to like a great book-- as brain and
>spirit food.

I knew that I was opening myself up to these comments with my original post
and I posted it, without disclaimers, all the same.  I will keep the response
brief. As I see it, the ideas in these responses are based
on the assumption that art and entertainment are mutually exclusive.
Or, that the Transformation Of Ass and entertainment are mutually exclusive.
Or, that intellectual stimulation and entertainment are mutually exclusive.
From the perspective that the distinction between art and entertainment is
arbitrary (and thus negligible) my original analogy and the statement I drew
from it regarding guilty relistenings is still sensible.

David "If you want entertainment, Transform Your Ass" K.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: a thought on guilty relistening
Date: 23 Sep 1998 23:06:23 -0400

David J. Keffer wrote:

> David "If you want entertainment, Transform Your Ass" K.

"Free your mind, and your ass will follow" -- George Clinton

--
---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: a thought on guilty relistening
Date: 24 Sep 1998 00:50:41 EDT

my take on having a music collection, FWIW, is that you should have some sort
of reason for keeping CDs or records around. the main and obvious reason for
most of them is that you find them enjoyable, but sometimes I keep stuff
around for other reasons, i.e. maybe I'll like this someday, it's
"historically" important, or whatever. in general, though, I try to clear out
CDs that I think are just duds, or stuff I've outgrown.

for instance, when I was first getting into jazz, I had a bunch of Wynton CDs.
needless to say, I'm not so interested in them anymore, so I've dumped them.
also, a lot of the time, I'll give CDs to friends who I think will be way more
into something than me. my personal rule is that I need to listen to something
for at least a few minutes before I edit it out of my collection.

of course, even with my "stringent" standards, I have about 4500 CDs in my
collection.

Jon

NP: David Ware-Go See The World (Columbia). Ten minutes in, and I like it a
lot but, boy is the packaging bland. I don't think there will be too many
impulse purchases of this one, from people who haven't heard of him anyway.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Lon Huber <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: collecting
Date: 24 Sep 1998 00:05:30 -0800

>[e-mail] wrote:
>     Long, long ago, probably when my record collection reached 200 or so,
>     I actually felt guilty about the fact that there were records which I
>     hadn't gotten around to (re)listening to in a long time. As I (like
>     any good, anal record collector) filed my vinyl alphabetically by
>     artist (and, bien sur, chronological within alphabetical) I started a
>     tradition of simply listening through my collection, start to finish.
>     As, in years since, I've pared and pruned the collection, winnowing
>     out those items that had little or nothing of value, my current body
>     of around 1600 items has a listen-cycle of 3 years or so (increasing
>     all the time, of course).

Twice a month, I spend Sunday afternoon hosting an open-invitation
listening salon. Friends drop by, and we take turns playing tracks for each
other. Aside from the benefit of hearing a bunch of stuff I'd have to
otherwise risk $$$ to check out, I suddenly find myself appreciating my
collection (700 or so vinyl albums, 250+ CDs) a whole lot more. After
playing, say, The World of Harry Partch for a friend who's never heard his
music, I'll end up rediscovering my Partch records over the following week.
I'm spending less and enjoying music a whole lot more.

>     Kinda fun listening to nothing but Braxton for two months.

Ain't it, though?

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Julian" <[e-mail]>
Subject: 4+1 horvitz
Date: 24 Sep 1998 17:41:16 +1000

Any thoughts on Horvitz's 4 Plus 1 Ensemble?

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Julian" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Masadas
Date: 24 Sep 1998 17:46:47 +1000

The ones I find myself listening to the most are 7 and 1. These two I find
are the most consistently good. After that it's a toss-up between 2, 5 and
9. These have some really fantastic tracks but some not so fantastic as
well...


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Cerato Marco <[e-mail]>
Subject: Cynical Hysterie Hour
Date: 24 Sep 1998 10:36:48 +0200

I have just listened to FILMWORKS VII, and it's wonderful!!
The only defect is that its lenght is only 25 minutes!!
.....anyway I think it's a must have it...




Zorn rules!!

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DR S WILKIE <[e-mail]>
Subject:       Re: Tyner's Bacharach
Date: 24 Sep 1998 09:11:52 GMT0BST

Hell, looks like I'm the only one on this list who's heard (or
will admit to having heard) McCoy Tyner Plays Bacharach.  Actually,
it wasn't as bad as I feared: my stereotype of Tyner is rhythmic (and
dynamic) aggression good, lush romanticism bad.  When I last saw him,
in duet with Bobby Hutcherson, I thought we had equal measures of
both.  I also heard Nights of Ballads And Blues (early 60s) which I
found very lame, but was then pleasantly surprised to enjoy his
Ellington cover album from the same period.  My favourites are his
late 60s Blue Notes, post Coltrane, but what I've heard of the
music he made in the 70s and early 80s holds up well ...

I eventually decided that the mixture of Tyner, Bacharach and
strings was pleasantly quirky in places and I taped the four or
five pieces I quite liked over what I considered the worst
pieces on the Bacharach album.

Sean Wilkie
On Bacharach covers, there's a version of Wives and Lovers by Grant
Green with Tyner and Jones as a bonus track on "Matador", which is
otherwise a fine album, but I prefer the Dave Douglas version of this
number.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rick Lopez <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: a thought on guilty relistening
Date: 24 Sep 1998 05:24:36 -0300

David J. Keffer wrote:
>
> Brian Olewnick wrote:
> >When I buy a music recording it's, generally, with the hope
> >that I'm purchasing a reproduction of a work of art.
>
> Rick Lopez wrote:
> >I like to think of a new CD as something that might Transform My Ass,

> I knew that I was opening myself up to these comments with my original post
> and I posted it, without disclaimers, all the same.

Aha! Trying to provoke me, eh?? :-)

> that the Transformation Of Ass and entertainment are mutually exclusive.
> Or, that intellectual stimulation and entertainment are mutually exclusive.

Like I said, perhaps I was taking this toooo literally-- but your
comment that you listened once and put it on the shelf made me wonder
how you could take all there is to take from these things in one listen.
And of course they're not exclusive, but to ignore the merged middle
ground for a minute-- I see entertainment as passive, art as more
involving. Being tickled versus a sweaty, blood-drenched wrestling
match. You know what I mean. I know what you mean. Okay.

> David "If you want entertainment, Transform Your Ass" K.

Rick "I'd pay $7.50 to be entertained but if I'm shelling out 15 bucks
it better Transform My Ass" Lopez.
--
Marilyn Crispell, Sam Rivers, Matthew Shipp, David S. Ware, and Reggie
Workman discographies; Samuel Beckett Eulogy; Baseball & the 10,000
Things; Time Stops; etc., at--
http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DR S WILKIE <[e-mail]>
Subject:       About Hank Mobley; also Charles Gayle
Date: 24 Sep 1998 09:37:22 GMT0BST

I don't disagree with everything Scott Handley wrote (Monday 21st),
in fact I share his sentiment about relief when your friends buy
certain things so that you can hear them while still retaining that
option on yer wallet.  But I do find strange the coment about a
similarity of form and approach applying more to Hank Mobley than to
Masada.  Substitute Zorn for Masada, and I'd agree, but while I'd be
intrigued by an analysis of the differences between the Masada
albums, I'd have to say that, to my ears, there are greater
differences of form and approach between, say, Soul Station and A
Slice Of The Top, than between any two Masada albums.
The other point I found strange was the plural pronoun in "do we need
more Charles Gayle/Derek Bailey/etc. records?".  I shouldn't pretend
I don't understand it - there was a Lou Reed song to this effect on
New York, I think - but from reading this list, I reckon it's a
question that people settle for themselves.  In any case, I didn't
think that there were that many Gayle albums, and I was thinking
about buying one that retailed quite reasonably for these shores:
can't remember the title, but it has a bird, wings outstretched on
the cover, it's not on Black saint or Silkheart, and I was going to
say that it has a religious title, but then maybe they all do.  Any
recommendations.

Sean Wilkie

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "hijk" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE:freefall
Date: 24 Sep 1998 08:17:10 -0400

The 5 extra tracks are all solo improvisations taken from the same sessions
and were previously unreleased.  Hopefully we can look forward to new solo
recordings from Mr. Giuffre, he's considering an album of solos recorded at
his home.

Jeff Kent
[e-mail]


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "gschwend d. atelier" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MatSonOnLine 11 - 1998 September (fwd)
Date: 23 Sep 1998 09:58:48 +0000

Paul Audino wrote:
>

> UPCOMING RELEASES
>
> JOHN ZORN  .  SONORA  - book + cd - edited by Walter Rovere & Carla Chiti

> Also included are writings on cinema by John Zorn and his complete discography.

> Paul
> [e-mail]

hi paul!

do you have more details about this book? publisher and isbn number,
e.g.
that would be excellent, and make it easier for me to get hold of it
over here in europe!
thanks for your help!
patRice


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Mark Saleski <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: collecting music
Date: 24 Sep 1998 09:44:37 -0400

there's a great book i read a while back: High Fidelity by Nick Hornby.

i won't give away too much but there are these guys who work in a used
record
shop and are always making up top ten lists of various sorts, make
compilation tapes
for their friends, etc.

at one point one of them talks about how he reorganizes his collection
when something
upsets him greatly. imagine organizing by _date of purchase_!

mark




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Sean Terwilliger <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: collecting music
Date: 24 Sep 1998 11:00:49 -0400

At 09:44 AM 9/24/98 -0400, Mark Saleski wrote:
>at one point one of them talks about how he reorganizes his collection
>when something
>upsets him greatly. imagine organizing by _date of purchase_!


Of course there's that great scene in Diner, where the guy almost divorces
his wife for mis-filing his records. None of my girlfriends ever got that
scene...

-Sean


-Sean


Sean Terwilliger                            Deerfield Academy
[e-mail]                        Network Administrator
                                    413-774-1843

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Chris B{rrett" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Raymond Scott
Date: 24 Sep 1998 11:36:41 -0400


I'm not sure where you're located, but I was at the Jazz Record Mart in
Chicago about 3 weeks ago and I found several Raymond Scott titles there
(but I don't recall the names).  If you're not close to Chicago, I bet you
could call the Jazz Record MArt and have them check for the titles they
have...

-Chris

At 9:06 PM 9/19/98, Joe Tait wrote:
>Sort of off-topic, but figured someone would know....
>
>I recently picked up the columbia reissue of Raymond Scott's "Reckless
>Nights and Turkish Twilights" as well as "Sounds for Baby Vol.1" and was
>wondering if there are any other releases of his in print (and what they
>sound like), as well as how the other Sounds for Baby compare to the
>first.
>
>Thanks,
>Joe
>
>
>-



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Bob Kowalski <[e-mail]>
Subject: 4+1 Ensemble
Date: 24 Sep 1998 12:59:47 -0400

--------re : From: "Julian" <[e-mail]> / Subject: 4+1
horvitz / Any thoughts on Horvitz's 4 Plus 1 Ensemble? - ----- ----

Wayne has done himself proud on this latest release, which imho is
excellent.  Don't look for any shronking noise fest though -- more in line
with his previous solo album (which I can't remember title of but which I
do also recommend.)

happy listening

Bob

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: David D Egan <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: 4+1 Ensemble
Date: 24 Sep 1998 10:21:45 -0700

Bob Kowalski wrote:
>
> --------re : From: "Julian" <[e-mail]> / Subject: 4+1
> horvitz / Any thoughts on Horvitz's 4 Plus 1 Ensemble? - ----- ----
>
> Wayne has done himself proud on this latest release, which imho is
> excellent.  Don't look for any shronking noise fest though -- more in
> line
> with his previous solo album (which I can't remember title of but which
> I
> do also recommend.)
>
> happy listening
>
> Bob

Wayne's earlier solo release is "Monologues".  I concur - both
Monologues and the new 4+1 disc are of a kind, and excellent.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Collecting/listening methods
Date: 24 Sep 1998 14:05:16 EDT

At 09:44 AM 9/24/98 -0400, Mark Saleski wrote:
>at one point one of them talks about how he reorganizes his collection
>when something
>upsets him greatly. imagine organizing by _date of purchase_!

Uh oh, as it turns out, a major part of my collection is filed that way, but
not so much by design as by listening method. By way of explanation:

Like many Zorn-listers, I am constantly acquiring new recordings, and like
many
Zorn-listers, I have a very limited amount of free time for listening, with a
job
or two, a family, etc. In fact, I'm lucky if I get one solid hour per week to
just sit down, turn out the lights, and focus on a recording. And even if I
only acquired one CD per week (and on average, the number is much higher), I
wouldn't have the time to listen even once to a new purchase before stowing
it away in the collection, and one listening, if something is worth owning,
is not necessarily adequte anyway. I know for many, simply owning it is
enough,
but that's not me. I like to know what I have by the music, not simply by the
label and number. And sure, I can pop plenty of stuff on as background music,
but reading "Stuart Little" to my 5-y/o with "Machine Gun" in the background
just doesn't cut it for anyone involved.

I have worked out a sick little system for myself that everyone I know finds
at least
a bit weird, if not downright compulsive and nuts, but here it is, after 20
years of doing it.

When I buy a disc, I try to give it at least a cursory listening to get a feel
for it
and make sure it isn't defective. It isn't neccessarily a concentrated
listening, often just a background listen while at work or while getting
ready for work, etc. Then the disc "gets in line." What this means is that
every disc I acquire is eventually gets taped for Walkman or car listening, in
the
order in which it was acquired. I have four cassettes in rotation for this
purpose, 2 in the car, 2 for the Walkman. Every CD eventually ends up on one
of these tapes for either 6 listenings (if the compositions are things I'm
familiar with, such as standards), or 10 listenings (if there are unfamiliar
songs or pieces). For the car, I keep track of the number of listenings using
a notepad, and
with the Walkman, with each "new" tape, I take 6 or 10 thin pieces of scotch
tape, double back the ends, and put them on the Walkman, removing one with
each listening (that's where people usually start wondering about me). Since
I spend 2 1/2 hours per weekday on a bus or train, and several hours each
weekend in the car, my car deck and Walkman are the "stereo components" I end
up listening to the most. Sure, neither the train nor the car are ideal
listening environments, but you take what you can get. I actually am able to
focus pretty seriously on what I am listening to in both locations.

This way, I become familiar with everything I buy before it enters the body
of my collection, and when I do get some time to sit back and do some at-home
quality listening, I don't feel guilty if I don't choose a recent purchase
that I haven't given enough time to, since I know it will get its chance
later. "Later," however, at this point is approximately four years, the lag
time
between purchase and car or Walkman. There are 10 shelves worth of CDs
waiting in line, but eventually they all get there. Sometimes, however, I do
get so hooked on a recent purchase and listen to it so incessantly that it
"graduates" into the collection without a turn in the car or Walkman.
Of course, the 4-year lag does mean that ocassionally I
might not be quite as enthusiastic about something now than I was when I
bought it, since there can be subtle, and not so subtle, changes in taste
over 4 years. On the other hand, it can also mean that I get that little
rush, that little thrill, that you get when first purchasing something all
over again 4 years later, because it almost feels like I'm just purchasing it
as it enters the Walkman.

This is the way that I have managed a collection of 15,000 or so recordings
(jazz, classical, bluegrass, whatever) and actually knowing what they sound
like!  Of course, my fantasy is to be filthy rich with no responsibilities,
and be able to do nothing but listen for 9 hours a day. So, if you have any
suggestions on how to achieve that, I'd be even more interested.

And I'm glad to help make many on the list feel comparitively at least a
little bit healthier, pychologically.

Dave Royko

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Collecting/listening methods
Date: 24 Sep 1998 11:13:34 -0700


    Dave,

On Thu, 24 Sep 1998 14:05:16 EDT  [e-mail] wrote:
>
> At 09:44 AM 9/24/98 -0400, Mark Saleski wrote:
> >at one point one of them talks about how he reorganizes his collection
> >when something
> >upsets him greatly. imagine organizing by _date of purchase_!
>
> Uh oh, as it turns out, a major part of my collection is filed that way, but
> not so much by design as by listening method. By way of explanation:
> ...
> I have worked out a sick little system for myself that everyone I know finds
> a bit weird, if not downright compulsive and nuts, but here it is, after 20
> years of doing it.

Is this based on a true story or is it out of a Nicholson Baker novel?

    Patrice :-).


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Perfect Sound Forever <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Liliput
Date: 24 Sep 1998 14:48:20 -0400

> On Wed, 23 Sep 1998 22:57:36 -0400, Lang Thompson sed:
>
> A few years back there was a CD reissue of the complete output of Liliput.
> Foolishly, I didn't buy it at the time so does anybody still have the
> address of the label in Switzerland (?I think) or know of a US source?
>

Sad to say this is long gone- outta print.  The label that put it out, Off Course, is no longer
at the address listed on the CD and they are no longer printing the CD or have any copies of this
lying around.

Marlene, the guitarist, is hawking a book now about Liliput/Kleenex that has a lot of great
stories and press clippings.  See http://www.furious.com/perfect/liliput.html for details.

Best,
Jason
--
Perfect Sound Forever
online music magazine
[e-mail]
http://www.furious.com/perfect



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Martin Wisckol)
Subject: Collection arrangements
Date: 24 Sep 1998 11:53:54 -0700

Enjoyed hearing of the guy who arranged his music by date of purchase.
Reminded me of a guy who used the chaos theory -- no order whatsoever,
despite a couple thousand LPs. How did he find what he wanted? "I just
start looking for it. Sometimes I find it but usually I first come
across something else I want to hear, something I hadn't thought of. ''

Any other interesting arrangement schemes? I'm still in the old
fashioned category approach, although I've merged rock with r&b, and
given laswell his own section (includes most axioms and laswell's
cohorts). But as the music grows ever more promiscuous sytlistically,
it's getting kind of sticky. Easy enough to put Naked City under Z
under jazz but does Jai Uttal and the Pagan Love Orchestra go under
India?

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Brent Burton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Collection arrangements
Date: 24 Sep 1998 15:07:19 -0400 (EDT)

On Thu, 24 Sep 1998, Martin Wisckol wrote:

> Any other interesting arrangement schemes?

i know a guy who organizes his cd collection by the color of the spine.

b

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dan Hewins <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Collection arrangements
Date: 24 Sep 1998 14:43:11 -0500

>Any other interesting arrangement schemes?

I used to have my jazz discs arranged by leader's insrument.  I started off
with trumpet, had my Miles section there near Lee, Dizzy, Clifford, etc.
Moved to trombone, as, ts, other reeds, piano, bassists, drummers.  I also
ended up seperating artists like Zorn, Frisell, Previte, Horvitz, and other
contemporary guys into their own area.  Needless to say, my roomate could
never find anything in my collection.  I liked it though.  I liked having
all the Tzadik discs near eachother.  Anyhoo...

Dan Hewins



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Felix" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Recent Goodie
Date: 24 Sep 1998 19:13:30 +0200

I got John Lindberg's "Bounce" today, featuring D. Douglas, and it
Transformed My Ass! :)
Really, it's good, sometimes it gets really wacky!

I know what some of you mean when you talk about albums that just sit on the
shelf. People are, by nature, dynamic (most people anyway) and some of us
end up changing musical tastes. I used to love Death Metal and Grind Core,
and now I have a bunch of tapes, vynils and some CD's which I hardly ever
listen too anymore. But I enjoyed them in the past and will keep them as a
reminder of my musical past.

Anyway...

Felix
[e-mail]


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Collection arrangements
Date: 24 Sep 1998 15:07:24 -0500



Martin wrote:

>Any other interesting arrangement schemes? I'm still in the old
>fashioned category approach, although I've merged rock with r&b, and
>given laswell his own section (includes most axioms and laswell's
>cohorts). But as the music grows ever more promiscuous sytlistically,
>it's getting kind of sticky. Easy enough to put Naked City under Z
>under jazz but does Jai Uttal and the Pagan Love Orchestra go under
>India?

        As, since I confessed before, I listen straight through, I find that a
strict alpha listing works nicely, jumbling together styles having little or
nothing to do with each other. As I'm entering, appropriate to this list, the
"Z" phase of my listening (once I get finished with the interminable LaMonte
Young!), this will include: Kalil el Zabar (I opted for "Z" rather than "E"),
"Zaire Choc!" (a collection from Zaire; when the performers are varied or
unlisted, I tend to file by country), some pre 1972 Zappa, a handful of Hector
Zazous, an Evan Ziporyn and a passel of things by some guy named Zorn.

        In fact, it was rather traumatic when my recent first purchase of a
Rabih Abou-Khalil release necessitated displacing Muhal from a long-held
position at the front of my collection. Muhal Richard Abrams: the Roger Maris of
new music.

Brian Olewnick







-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Collection arrangements
Date: 24 Sep 1998 16:44:17 EDT


In a message dated 9/24/98 4:19:18 PM, [e-mail] wrote:

<<In fact, it was rather traumatic when my recent first purchase of a

Rabih Abou-Khalil release necessitated displacing Muhal from a long-held

position at the front of my collection. Muhal Richard Abrams: the Roger Maris
of

new music.>>

No Kaoru Abe CDs, huh?

Jon

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Collection arrangements
Date: 24 Sep 1998 13:53:28 -0700


On Thu, 24 Sep 1998 16:44:17 EDT  [e-mail] wrote:
>
> No Kaoru Abe CDs, huh?

That's why I have been dragging my feet to buy an Abba compilation...

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Martin Wisckol)
Subject: Re: Collection arrangements
Date: 24 Sep 1998 14:05:19 -0700

LOL as Abram as Maris....

Enjoying these responses -- thanks for yours. Hope you're digging Rabih
-- I have three or four and love them all....

You mentioned Zazou -- I have one, the one with music to Rimbaud's
words, which I find exceedingly pleasant (in a good way). Any other
recommendations from Hector? Haven't searched for him on the web, but
at this moment realize I have no idea who this guy is or where he's
from or what his bio looks like.... feel free to comment.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE:freefall
Date: 24 Sep 1998 18:09:42 -0400 (EDT)

Are these new improvisations or something he taped in the past? My
understanding was that Giuffre was quite ill?

Ken Waxman
[e-mail]


On Thu, 24 Sep 1998, hijk wrote:

> The 5 extra tracks are all solo improvisations taken from the same sessions
> and were previously unreleased.  Hopefully we can look forward to new solo
> recordings from Mr. Giuffre, he's considering an album of solos recorded at
> his home.
>
> Jeff Kent
> [e-mail]
>
>
> -
>
>

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "hijk" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE:Freefall
Date: 24 Sep 1998 18:30:49 -0400

Mr. Giuffre has been diagnosed with Parkinson's disease, but he still plays
and would like to record again.  The problem is that he works at a much
slower pace these days and may have trouble finding people to hang around
long enough to finish a project. Hence solo recordings.

Jeff Kent
[e-mail]



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Lang Thompson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Hornby's "High Fidelity"
Date: 24 Sep 1998 20:34:21 -0400

All this discussion about record collecting, organizing and lists makes me
think of Nick Hornby's "High Fidelity."  It's really an exceptional novel
(despite having become a "cult" item for Gen Xers) & probably most people
on this list will easily identify with a good bit of it.

LT
Lang Thompson
http://www.tcf.ua.edu/wlt4

New at the Funhouse website:  Did Elvis Steal Rock 'n'
Roll?, The X-Files Movie Bites!, music reviews

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Benito Vergara" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Collecting/listening methods
Date: 24 Sep 1998 18:40:17 -0700

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail]
> [mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of [e-mail]
> Sent: Thursday, September 24, 1998 11:05 AM
>
> I have worked out a sick little system for myself that everyone I
> know

Scary. But I'm sure other people out there have systems as well.

> Then the disc "gets in line." What this means is that
> every disc I acquire is eventually gets taped for Walkman or car
> listening, in
> the
> order in which it was acquired.

Now *that* is scary, since I do the same thing. Alas, in these days of
satisfaction-guaranteed music stores, I'm somewhat more inclined to give the
CD one good listen and if it isn't close to TYA-type music, i.e., Transform
Your Ass (this is your fault, Rick!), then it's a good candidate for return
or resale. There was a time when I had time to sit in the dark, put on the
headphones and concentrate on a CD (I went through a whole slew of Kronos
Quartet CDs this way), but alas, that time was short-lived. Now I have to do
it while reading the newspaper or something.

Anything that passed muster would be played exactly twice (crazy, huh?) on
the big stereo, and then placed in a rotating collection of 20-odd CDs,
which were eventually taped for the Walkman (when I was a lowly, car-less
grad student) or the car, in the order they were purchased. (Unless a
concert was coming up, in which case the CD was moved up the car-tape line.)
After I grow tired of the CD, I'd tape over the car tape and shelve the CD,
to be discovered later. TYA CDs, of course, would stay longer in both
rotating collection and car.

Which reminds me: I've been using the same 90-minute Maxell tape for both
Walkman and car, for the last six years!

The rotating collection would also be slightly subdivided into two
categories: CDs I could play while my wife was around, and CDs that would
probably annoy her (not that it mattered terribly, since I would play them
anyway until she would ask, "What *is* this?"), e.g. Godflesh, Painkiller,
Nurse With Wound, Naked City, Current 93, post-1965 Coltrane, Brotzmann,
etc. (ObZorn: JZ tended to fall in the latter category, except for the
Masada discs.) Thus the "annoying" CDs -- plus all the quiet stuff that
wouldn't be heard over the car's engine -- would stay in the rotating
collection longer to make up for their being deprived of their moment of
automotive glory.

> "Later," however, at this point is approximately four
> years, the lag
> time
> between purchase and car or Walkman.

About three months, for me. Enrolling in those CD clubs sure does create a
backlog!

> And I'm glad to help make many on the list feel comparitively at least a
> little bit healthier, pychologically.

Yeah, that part about the pieces of scotch tape made me sigh with relief. =)

And about those listening groups -- they sound really interesting. Any
helpful suggestions on how to organize one? Do you listen to music
thematically, chronologically, or whatever? (Respond privately if you want.)

Later,
Ben

np: david s. ware quartet, "lexicon"

http://www.bigfoot.com/~bvergara/
ICQ# 12832406


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: collecting music
Date: 24 Sep 1998 23:53:31 -0400

Mark Saleski wrote:

> there's a great book i read a while back: High Fidelity by Nick Hornby.

Fabulous book.  Part old/new fashioned love story, part character study of
obsessive music fans.  The quality of writing about pop music is, as these
British guys would say, "spot on."

> at one point one of them talks about how he reorganizes his collection
> when something
> upsets him greatly. imagine organizing by _date of purchase_!

No matter how upset I get about other things in life, nothing will move my
records...

Gotta find that book about collectors Jeff recommended...

Steve Smith
[e-mail]


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dan Given <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Collection arrangements
Date: 25 Sep 1998 00:18:23 -0400

>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 24 Sep 98 15:07:24 -0500
>From: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: Collection arrangements
>
>
>        In fact, it was rather traumatic when my recent first purchase of a
>Rabih Abou-Khalil release necessitated displacing Muhal from a long-held
>position at the front of my collection. Muhal Richard Abrams: the Roger
Maris of
>new music.
>
>Brian Olewnick

Hey Brian, would acquisition of the Aaly Trio + Vandermark
(Gustafsson/Vandermark/Peter Jansson/Kjell Nordeson) discs require therapy?

Personally, I've always subscribed to the theory that letters not in words
go first, so AMM gets the top left corner of the first shelving unit.

Dan


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Scott Chamberlin <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Collection arrangements
Date: 25 Sep 1998 04:54:16 +0000

Dan Given wrote:


> Hey Brian, would acquisition of the Aaly Trio + Vandermark
> (Gustafsson/Vandermark/Peter Jansson/Kjell Nordeson) discs require therapy?

Any thoughts on this album?

-Scott Chamberlin
[e-mail]

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Spirer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: collecting music
Date: 24 Sep 1998 22:03:36 -0700

At 11:53 PM 9/24/98 -0400, Steve Smith wrote:
>Mark Saleski wrote:
>
>> there's a great book i read a while back: High Fidelity by Nick Hornby.
>
>Fabulous book...

>Gotta find that book about collectors Jeff recommended...

There is a big difference between these two books (the one I referenced was
_Hunters & Gatherers_ by Geoff Nicholson.  _High Fidelity_ is an enjoyable
book, but the writing isn't particularly interesting.  Nicholson is much
more Zornian in his writing, with fits and starts, quick bits, rude noises,
and some highly improbable juxtapositions that seem out of place until the
whole is assimilated.  Nicholson has clearly absorbed Burroughs, Ballard,
Selby et al and created something that follows in that vein, in other
words, something in which the writing becomes as interesting as the piece.

While we are on literature, and I will not take much more time with this
off-topic wandering, the most interesting book I have read lately (and I
read quite a few) is _The Insult_ (I've loaned out the book and can't
remember the author's name, but you can find it at amazon.com), a maniacal
excursion through the mind of a man blinded by a gun wound who discovers he
can see at night.  Sex, violence, incest, strip clubs, criminals, ancient
rivalries - it has all of this plus great writing.

And now back to music...

Jeff Spirer
Axiom/Material: www.hyperreal.org/axiom/
Photography: www.hyperreal.org/~jeffs/gallery.html

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Collecting Music
Date: 25 Sep 1998 01:21:01 EDT

here's a question i have wrestled with for quite some time:

if one files cds alpha by artist/composer, where would you put 2 live crew? i
figured, since it starts with a number, it goes before "a". thoughts, coments,
suggestions?

btw, i can't bring myself to get rid of it, if only because it was outlawed in
florida...

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: collecting music
Date: 25 Sep 1998 01:28:20 EDT


In a message dated 9/25/98 1:09:52 AM, [e-mail] wrote:

<<While we are on literature, and I will not take much more time with this
off-topic wandering, the most interesting book I have read lately (and I
read quite a few) is _The Insult_ (I've loaned out the book and can't
remember the author's name, but you can find it at amazon.com), a maniacal
excursion through the mind of a man blinded by a gun wound who discovers he
can see at night.  Sex, violence, incest, strip clubs, criminals, ancient
rivalries - it has all of this plus great writing.>>

It's by Rupert Thomson, and it's part of the amazing Vintage Crime/Black
Lizard series. That being said, I found it one of the least compelling of the
series. I'd recommend reading pretty much anything by Jim Thompson before this
one, or anything by Charles Willeford.

Just my opinion,
Jon

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Saidel Eric J <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: collecting music
Date: 25 Sep 1998 00:32:05 -0500 (CDT)


According to Jeff Spirer:
>
> At 11:53 PM 9/24/98 -0400, Steve Smith wrote:
> >Mark Saleski wrote:
> >
> >> there's a great book i read a while back: High Fidelity by Nick Hornby.
> >
> >Fabulous book...
>
> >Gotta find that book about collectors Jeff recommended...
>
> There is a big difference between these two books (the one I referenced was
> _Hunters & Gatherers_ by Geoff Nicholson.  _High Fidelity_ is an enjoyable
> book, but the writing isn't particularly interesting.

Dragged me out of lurking again.  Coincidentally, I just read this book
(because I couldn't resist the title and I really enjoyed Hornby's new
one, _About a Boy_).  I thought the writing was spot on.  He wasn't
doing that much *experimentation* with his writing technique, but the
writing fit the story perfectly.

As Steve said, though, don't read this book expecting it to be about
music; music figures in the story, but it's really a story about
relationships and not being a kid any more, but not knowing how to
be an adult.




> Nicholson is much
> more Zornian in his writing, with fits and starts, quick bits, rude noises,
> and some highly improbable juxtapositions that seem out of place until the
> whole is assimilated.  Nicholson has clearly absorbed Burroughs, Ballard,
> Selby et al and created something that follows in that vein, in other
> words, something in which the writing becomes as interesting as the piece.
>
> While we are on literature, and I will not take much more time with this
> off-topic wandering, the most interesting book I have read lately (and I
> read quite a few) is _The Insult_ (I've loaned out the book and can't
> remember the author's name, but you can find it at amazon.com), a maniacal
> excursion through the mind of a man blinded by a gun wound who discovers he
> can see at night.  Sex, violence, incest, strip clubs, criminals, ancient
> rivalries - it has all of this plus great writing.

Jeez, sounds incredibly pleasant!


>
> And now back to music...

yes.

- eric

>
> Jeff Spirer
> Axiom/Material: www.hyperreal.org/axiom/
> Photography: www.hyperreal.org/~jeffs/gallery.html
>
> -
>


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Peter Hollo <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: collecting music
Date: 25 Sep 1998 15:45:01 +1000

I have my music arranged in alphabetical order. Crazy, huh?

No actually, there's more to it than that: Rock/pop goes in alphabetical
order. Then dance/electronic gets its own section in alphabetical order.
Compilations are in their own pile separately for rock/pop (including
here soundtracks) and separately again for dance/electronic. Then the
Tzadik/jazz/klezmer etc gets its own pile (I have too many CDs to fit in
CD racks, my room wouldn't fit 'em all!) Also, odd-shaped CDs,
digi-packs etc, get their own pile, one for rock/pop and one for
dance/electronic. Then there's extremely large piles of singles, as
usual separated into rock/pop and dance/electronic.
Then there's the (rather large) classical pile, and the avant-garde
classical (the latter merges somewhat with the Tzadik etc pile) and that
just about covers it all. Of course then there's also the vinyl
collection - lots of it vertically (spine perpendicular to the ground)
collected, plus all the more recent dance/electronic stuff in its own
pile.
Almost all of this is arranged alphabetically because if it wasn't even
_I_ couldn't find things - there's just too much! Unfortunately this way
makes it easy for my brother to pinch stuff ;)

Peter.
--
Peter Hollo  [e-mail]  http://www.fourplay.com.au/me.html
           FourPlay - Eclectic Electric String Quartet
                http://www.fourplay.com.au
"Of course, dance music can be a music where you lie on your back and
your brain cells dance" -Michael Karoli of Can, quoted in Wire mag.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: collecting music
Date: 25 Sep 1998 02:12:33 -0400

Saidel Eric J wrote [regarding "High Fidelity" by Nick Hornby]:

> music figures in the story, but it's really a story about
> relationships and not being a kid any more, but not knowing how to
> be an adult.

"Spot on" analysis, Eric!  Really lovely.  Wish I could have been so precise and
concise.

Still, I do plan on finding "Hunters & Gatherers," the book Jeff has so
illuminatingly described - it sounds irresistible, actually, given Jeff's choice
of words!  I've been on an all-DeLillo kick lately, so, to paraphrase Gang of
Four, the change will do me good.

And hey, Zornlist charter aside, I quite *like* the idea of getting literary
suggestions from folks with whom I'm musically in sync...

(But to simultaneously suck up to the charter - damn, Masada sure were great
tonight at Tonic, even if all I could see of the band were the scroll of the neck
of Greg's bass and occasionally the top of Dave's head...)

Steve Smith
[e-mail]


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Scott Chamberlin <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: collecting music
Date: 25 Sep 1998 06:20:29 +0000

This thread gave me a little deja vu, about this time last year we were
discussing the same thing.

>From messages dated around November 16, 1997
>I've started experimenting with storing CDs by genre instead of the >previous method of
simply alphabetical by artist.

>The best filing method i've ever heard of is colour of spine

>How about by height?

>random access method works for me.

I wonder what would be the most repeated topics for this list? I know
that over the three years I have been lurking here we have had repeated
discussions over "jazz snob eat shit", "long off topic threads
complaining about off topic posts", and the "Zappa rocks/sucks debate".
Maybe it just means that these are the most important unresolved issues
in this realm (the collection organization paradox?).

I didn't post this to try and generate a flurry of posts of everyone
giving their own opinion of what they think is the most repeated topic,
but just as some food for thought.

-Scott Chamberlin
[e-mail]

Peter Hollo wrote:
>
> I have my music arranged in alphabetical order. Crazy, huh?
>
> No actually, there's more to it than that: Rock/pop goes in alphabetical
> order. Then dance/electronic gets its own section in alphabetical order.
> Compilations are in their own pile separately for rock/pop (including
> here soundtracks) and separately again for dance/electronic. Then theDate: Sun, 16 Nov
1997 04:41:25 -0500 (EST)

<< > > I've started experimenting with storing CDs by genre instead of
the
 > > previous method of simply alphabetical by artist, and I've ended up

 > The best filing method i've ever heard of is colour-of-spine.

 How about by height?  :)
  >>

Random access method works for me.

=dgasque=
> Tzadik/jazz/klezmer etc gets its own pile (I have too many CDs to fit in
> CD racks, my room wouldn't fit 'em all!) Also, odd-shaped CDs,
> digi-packs etc, get their own pile, one for rock/pop and one for
> dance/electronic. Then there's extremely large piles of singles, as
> usual separated into rock/pop and dance/electronic.
> Then there's the (rather large) classical pile, and the avant-garde
> classical (the latter merges somewhat with the Tzadik etc pile) and that
> just about covers it all. Of course then there's also the vinyl
> collection - lots of it vertically (spine perpendicular to the ground)
> collected, plus all the more recent dance/electronic stuff in its own
> pile.
> Almost all of this is arranged alphabetically because if it wasn't even
> _I_ couldn't find things - there's just too much! Unfortunately this way
> makes it easy for my brother to pinch stuff ;)
>
> Peter.
> --
> Peter Hollo  [e-mail]  http://www.fourplay.com.au/me.html
>            FourPlay - Eclectic Electric String Quartet
>                     http://www.fourplay.com.au
> "Of course, dance music can be a music where you lie on your back and
> your brain cells dance" -Michael Karoli of Can, quoted in Wire mag.
>
> -

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Julian" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: 4+1 Ensemble
Date: 25 Sep 1998 17:26:55 +1000

> Wayne's earlier solo release is "Monologues".  I concur - both
> Monologues and the new 4+1 disc are of a kind, and excellent.

I found some sound clips and they sounded like a kind of jazzy version of
Bill Frisell's Quartet (because of the violin and trombone I guess). How do
they compare when you listen to the whole thing?


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re[2]: Collection arrangements
Date: 25 Sep 1998 08:19:27 -0500




     Dan wrote:

>Personally, I've always subscribed to the theory that letters not in words
>go first, so AMM gets the top left corner of the first shelving unit.

     Dan, believe me, I've given (no pun intended) serious thought to this
     (well, half-serious). I'm operating under the assumption that AMM is,
     in fact, some mysterious acronym that'll one day be discovered and I'm
     laying money that the first word doesn't begin with "Ab". I'll check
     the Vegas line and see if I can get a bet down.

     Brian Olewnick



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re[2]: Collecting Music
Date: 25 Sep 1998 08:22:36 -0500



>here's a question i have wrestled with for quite some time:

>if one files cds alpha by artist/composer, where would you put 2 live crew? i
>figured, since it starts with a number, it goes before "a". thoughts, coments,
>suggestions?

     Same place I put my sole 3rd Bass CD: under "T".

     The only other discs I own where this comes up are those by 8 Bold
     Souls.

     Brian Olewnick



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Recent Reading, was Re[2]: collecting music
Date: 25 Sep 1998 08:41:00 -0500



     Steve Smith wrote:

>And hey, Zornlist charter aside, I quite *like* the idea of getting literary
>suggestions from folks with whom I'm musically in sync...

     I'd been thinking of broaching this topic here for a couple of months.
     After all, there is _some_ Zornian precedent in that he used to list
     recent readings on the Tzadik site. I'd also find interesting the
     reading habits of folk here (for that matter, I'd be curious about
     which, if any, visual artists you people enjoy). So, if Mr. Rizzi
     doesn't object,

     Some recent literary goodies:

        How the Mind Works      Steven Pinker

        One of the better layperson's overviews of recent cognitive
        research with a great deal of food for thought. If you've read
        related books by Dennett, Minsky, et al, you'll enjoy it.

        Underworld              Don Delillo

        What'd you think Steve? I found it a bit uneven, though the upsides
        are higher than most you'll find elsewhere. Some gorgeous writing
        and an enjoyable, for me, baseball thread.

        Strong Opinions         Vladmir Nabokov

        Wonderful essays and curmudgeonly criticism by, IMHO, likely the
        finest English language writer this century. He had a unique
        combination of Old World grace and a wickedly mordant sense of
        humor. Plus you learn about butterflies. Has gotten me to begin
        rereading 'Ulysses'. Highly recommended.

     Jon Abbey mentioned Jim Thompson. Earlier this year, I read through
     virtually his entire canon (first time I'd read him). Uneven, but the
     best are a great deal of fun and a lot sicker than any of the movies
     based on them.

     Brian Olewnick



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Robert A. Pleshar" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Collecting Music
Date: 25 Sep 1998 08:15:07 -0500 (CDT)

Numbers alphabetize alphabetically by the spelling of the number in most
library alphebetization systems. Therefore, 2 Live Crew would be filed under
"Two" in my collection, right between Twisted Sister and Charles Tyler. Yuk,
yuk. Actually, I only wish I had some Twisted Sister "I wanna rock!" I also
wish I had the Luke Campbell album "I've got something on my mind" if only
for the cover (luke sitting on a toilet reading a newspaper).

In the sake of disclosure, I just keep everything in alphabetical order.
People like Little Richard, Litle Walter, etc. give me some concern though.
(File under "L' or "R"?) I'm not going to use their "real" names, so I
usually file these sorts of names as if they were group names (i.e. under
"L" for Little Richard).

Obsessively yours,
Ralph


At 01:21 AM 9/25/98 EDT, you wrote:
>here's a question i have wrestled with for quite some time:
>
>if one files cds alpha by artist/composer, where would you put 2 live crew? i
>figured, since it starts with a number, it goes before "a". thoughts, coments,
>suggestions?
>
>btw, i can't bring myself to get rid of it, if only because it was outlawed in
>florida...
>
>-
>
>


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: JZ at Merkin Hall, October 21
Date: 25 Sep 1998 09:10:26 -0500


     "The John Zorn Ensemble" is playing Merkin (NYC) on 10/21.

     No program is listed, but the performers include Mark Feldman, Erik
     Friedlander, Anthony Coleman, Stephen Drury, Jim Pugliese, William
     Winant and "others".

     Any idea of the program, Mr. Drury?

     Brian Olewnick



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Caleb Deupree <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Recent Reading, was Re[2]: collecting music
Date: 25 Sep 1998 09:43:02 -0400

>>>>> "brian" == brian olewnick <[e-mail]> writes:

    brian>         Underworld Don Delillo

    brian>         What'd you think Steve? I found it a bit uneven,
    brian> though the upsides are higher than most you'll find
    brian> elsewhere. Some gorgeous writing and an enjoyable, for me,
    brian> baseball thread.

I *loved* this, and think it's one of DDL's best works, up there with
the Names.  It has the subtle underpinnings of paranoia that
characterize DeLillo for me, and a complex structure that converges on
the Event from many different angles.  I always had the feeling that
something vaguely sinister was happening, even if I couldn't
articulate what it was.

Underworld started a year of long novels, which also included Mason &
Dixon and Infinite Jest.  The trouble with all these ultra long,
excessive, complex novels is that you have to read them twice to
figure out what's what.  I find that they're also spoilers for
ordinary novels, which don't seem as interesting any more (in much the
same way that alternative pop doesn't sound interesting after Naked
City).

Love this thread.  I'm saving these book related messages the same way
I saved all the top 20s last year.
---
Caleb T. Deupree
;; Opinions...  funny thing about opinions, they can change.

Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers.
(Pablo Picasso)


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Collecting Music
Date: 25 Sep 1998 10:09:52 EDT

In a message dated 98-09-25 08:42:20 EDT, you write:

<<      Same place I put my sole 3rd Bass CD: under "T".

      The only other discs I own where this comes up are those by 8 Bold
      Souls.

      Brian Olewnick
  >>

Off the top of my head - and I use this method too - no one else here listens
to 808 State or Phil Manzanera's 801?

Dale.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Joseph S. Zitt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: collecting music
Date: 25 Sep 1998 09:15:17 -0500 (CDT)

On Fri, 25 Sep 1998, Peter Hollo wrote:

> I have my music arranged in alphabetical order. Crazy, huh?

Me too, with a few exceptions:

- CDs I haven't yet listened to (or which I've listened to once but I'm
pretty sure deserve another, closer listening before they join the
alphabet) are on shelves of their own.
- Various-artist complilations are on a shelf of their own, in no
particular order
- Those damn CD singles with no printing on the spine, just on the top and
botom, are on a shelf of their own, with the top spine sticking out.
- Boxed sets are on a separate shelf, along with CDs whose packages are a
bit too big for normal shelves.

I have about 700 CDs. I've probably bought about 2000 over the years, but
the collection's been ripped off twice *sigh*

- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Eric Saidel <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Recent Reading, was Re[2]: collecting music
Date: 25 Sep 1998 09:26:46 -0500

I originally replied to Steve offlist about this, but it seems like this is going
to be a momentary fashion, and I can't resist this one, so I won't try.

[e-mail] wrote:

>      Steve Smith wrote:
>
> >And hey, Zornlist charter aside, I quite *like* the idea of getting literary
> >suggestions from folks with whom I'm musically in sync...
>
>      I'd been thinking of broaching this topic here for a couple of months.
>      After all, there is _some_ Zornian precedent in that he used to list
>      recent readings on the Tzadik site. I'd also find interesting the
>      reading habits of folk here (for that matter, I'd be curious about
>      which, if any, visual artists you people enjoy). So, if Mr. Rizzi
>      doesn't object,
>
>      Some recent literary goodies:
>
>         How the Mind Works      Steven Pinker
>
>         One of the better layperson's overviews of recent cognitive
>         research with a great deal of food for thought. If you've read
>         related books by Dennett, Minsky, et al, you'll enjoy it.

I haven't read this, although it is sitting on my pile of things to read
beckoning me.  But, as a professional in this area, I should warn you that these
books do not come without a very very strong bias.  (One that is rejected by many
in the field.  For example, I know of very few philosophers who take Dennett's
recent work very seriously.)  You should be aware, for example, that Pinker is
something of a genetic determinist: he thinks our behavior is caused by and
excused by our genes.  This is an extremely radical view.  A much more moderate
view is that behavior is caused by the interaction of our genes, our minds, and
the world.  (Compare this to the nature/nurture debate: which determines our
behavior?  Neither, our behavior is a result of the two influences.)

I could go on, but I won't.


>         Underworld              Don Delillo
>
>         What'd you think Steve? I found it a bit uneven, though the upsides
>         are higher than most you'll find elsewhere. Some gorgeous writing
>         and an enjoyable, for me, baseball thread.

I loved this.  The description of the shot heard round the world was a sustained
piece of beauty.  This book fulfills some of Delillo's promise - it's a work in
which the characters are more than just placards for the themes he wants to
explore.  (That's not a criticism of his other works - the characters in, say
_White Noise_ are not meant to be complete.)


>
>
>         Strong Opinions         Vladmir Nabokov
>
>         Wonderful essays and curmudgeonly criticism by, IMHO, likely the
>         finest English language writer this century. He had a unique
>         combination of Old World grace and a wickedly mordant sense of
>         humor. Plus you learn about butterflies. Has gotten me to begin
>         rereading 'Ulysses'. Highly recommended.

Thanks for the rec.  I just finished _Speak, Memory_.  Beautiful writing, and
when he writes about butterflies you can just tell that his eyes are glowing with
excitement.

- eric



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Collecting/Listening Methods
Date: 25 Sep 1998 10:32:01 EDT

Very scary indeed, because:

In a message dated 98-09-25 00:05:17 EDT, you write:
>Which reminds me: I've been using the same 90-minute Maxell tape for both
>Walkman and car, for the last six years!

Mine is going on 5! And. . .

>The rotating collection would also be slightly subdivided into two
>categories: CDs I could play while my wife was around, and CDs that would
>probably annoy her (not that it mattered terribly, since I would play them
>anyway until she would ask, "What *is* this?")

. . .me too on this point as well. My god, I am not alone. . .

Dave Royko

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dan Given <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Aaly Trio (was something about collecting)
Date: 25 Sep 1998 10:55:49 -0400

>Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 04:54:16 +0000
>From: Scott Chamberlin <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Re: Collection arrangements
>
>Dan Given wrote:
>
>
>> the Aaly Trio + Vandermark
>> (Gustafsson/Vandermark/Peter Jansson/Kjell Nordeson) discs require therapy?
>
>Any thoughts on this album?
>
>- -Scott Chamberlin
>[e-mail]
>

There are two Aaly 3/Vandermark albums.  The first, Hidden in the Stomach
is on Silkheart.  Very good free jazz, more along the lines of a Vandermark
album than a Gustafsson (meaning more jazz oriented). The firts track,
which is a different versio of something from the FJF disc, is a killer. If
you like the FJF album, this one is maybe a bit better.  THe second,
Stumble, on the Wobbly Rail label, I haven't heard all of. It is at the
radio station I DJ at, so I've played about 1/2 of it so far. More of the
same, but I don't really like the sound quality. It is a live recording
from Unity Temple, a bit echo-ey (though it does add a nice touch
sometimes).


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: BJOERN <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Collecting Music
Date: 25 Sep 1998 17:23:36 +0200 (MEST)

>
> if one files cds alpha by artist/composer, where would you put 2 live crew? i
> figured, since it starts with a number, it goes before "a". thoughts, coments,
> suggestions?

haha 2 live crew..i would throw it away .... *G*
well yes before "A" or under "T" (two)

BJOERN


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Recent Reading, was Re[2]: collecting music
Date: 25 Sep 1998 08:48:37 -0700


On Fri, 25 Sep 98 08:41:00 -0500  [e-mail] wrote:
>
>         Underworld              Don Delillo
>
>         What'd you think Steve? I found it a bit uneven, though the upsides
>         are higher than most you'll find elsewhere. Some gorgeous writing
>         and an enjoyable, for me, baseball thread.
>
>         Strong Opinions         Vladmir Nabokov
>
>         Wonderful essays and curmudgeonly criticism by, IMHO, likely the
>         finest English language writer this century. He had a unique
>         combination of Old World grace and a wickedly mordant sense of
>         humor. Plus you learn about butterflies. Has gotten me to begin
>         rereading 'Ulysses'. Highly recommended.

...and the finest French language writer of this century is Samuel Beckett...

Robbe-Grillet said almost what you said of Nabokov at a literary event in
NY many years ago. This upset so much John Barth that he replied to him the
above sentence :-).

>      Jon Abbey mentioned Jim Thompson. Earlier this year, I read through
>      virtually his entire canon (first time I'd read him). Uneven, but the
>      best are a great deal of fun and a lot sicker than any of the movies
>      based on them.

SAVAGE NIGHT is really one of the sickest I read by him. A true nightmare.

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Underworld (was: Recent Reading)
Date: 25 Sep 1998 12:33:03 EDT

wow, I'm amazed how many list members seem to have read the same 800 page
book, even if it is the highly publicized Underworld. I just read this a few
weeks ago myself, and I would say it was a bit disappointing. I had the same
problem with DeLillo's characters that I usually do, and that someone else
alluded to, I tend to find them a bit two-dimensional. I also felt like the
bulk of the book just didn't add up to that much. Sure, it was cleverly
structured, but I found myself thinking afterwards that for an 800 page novel
covering a half century, it seemed like a "small" undertaking, in terms of
what the story added up to.

all that being said, the first seventy pages of this book are as good as
anything I've read in a really long time. they stand by themself, and that's
what I've been recommending to my friends. read the first seventy pages, which
can also work as an individual scene, and stop there.

next we're going to do movies, right? I'm off in a bit to see the re-edited
Touch Of Evil.

Jon

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Chris from Zeke's" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Being Obsesive about Music AND High Fidelity
Date: 25 Sep 1998 12:41:59 -0400

Howdy!

I apologize in advance for the length of this post, but for those of you who
are interested, here is a list of all the references to music in _High
Fidelity_. Page number in whatever was paperback copy, artist, song title,
album title. I was originally going to then add if I owned the reference or
not. But then realized that I could do something else as well.

S'later
Chris

10, Carly Simon,
10, Carole King,
10, James Taylor,
10, Cat Stevens,
10, Elton John,
18, Lynyrd Skynyrd,
20, Johnny Rotten,
24, Neil Young, Only Love can Break Your Heart,
24, The Smiths, Last Night I dreamed that somebody loved me,
24, Aretha Franklin, Call Me,
24, I don't want to talk about it,
24, Love Hurts,
24, When Love Breaks Down,
24, How can you mend a broken heart,
24, The Speed of the sound of loneliness,
24, She's Gone,
24, I just don't know what to do with myself,
29, Madness,
29, Eurythmics,
29, Bob Dylan,
29, Joni Mitchell,
29, Bob Marley,
37, Bob Dylan, Blonde On Blonde,
37, Stiff Little Fingers,
37, John Lennon,
37, The Smiths,
37, Frank Zappa,
37, Sonic Youth,
38, Lou Reed,
38, Liquorice Comfits,
39, Phil Collins,
39, Lemonheads,
40, Elvis Costello,
40, Dana, All kinds of everything,
41, The Clash,
42, Gerry & Sylvia Anderson,
43, Walking On Sunshine,
43, Righteous Brothers, Little Latin Lupe Lu,
43, Mitch Ryder, Little Latin Lupe Lu,
45, The Beatles, Abbey Road,
45, The Beatles, Something,
45, The Beatles, Help,
45, The Beatles, Yellow Submarine,
47, The Beatles, Abbey Road,
47, The Beatles, Revolver,
52, Stevie Wonder, I just called to say I love you,
52, Stevie Wonder, Don't Drive Drunk,
53, Neil Young,
54, Robert Johnson,
54, Wham!,
55, The Beatles, Revolver,
55, Deep Purple,
55, Howlin' Wolf,
55, Marvin Gaye, Sexual Healing,
55, David Bowie, Ziggy Stardust,
55, The Who, Tommy,
55, Joni Mitchell, Blue,
55, All kinds of everything,
60, Nanci Griffith,
61, Peter Frampton, Baby I love your way,
61, Peter Frampton, Show me the way,
61, Peter Frampton, Frampton Comes Alive,
61, Diana Ross,
61, Elton John,
62, Partridge Family,
77, James Brown,
77, The Beatles,
77, The Who,
77, Elvis Presley,
77, The Sex Pistols, God Save the Queen,
77, Otis Redding, You Left The Water Running,
78, Chuck Berry,
80, Otis Redding,
80, Elvis Presely,
80, James Brown,
80, Jerry Lee Lewis,
80, The Sex Pistols,
80, The Beatles,
81, Liquorice Comfits,
81, Peter Frampton, Baby I love your way,
82, Hall & Oates,
82, Love Hurts,
83, Bob Dylan,
83, Elvis Costello,
83, Neil Young,
87, Smokey Robinson, It's A Good Feeling,
87, Bobby Bland, No Blow, No Show,
87, Jean Knight, Mr. Big Stuff,
87, Jackson Five, The Love You Save,
87, Donny Hathaway, The Ghetto,
87, Sheena Easton,
87, Solomon Burke, Got to get you off of my mind,
88, Madonna, Holiday,
88, Jackson Five, The Love You Save,
89, Solomon Burke, Got to get you off of my mind,
95, Guy Clarke,
95, Jimmie Dale Gilmore,
97, The Paragons, Happy Go Lucky Girl,
97, Jesus & Mary Chain, First,
97, Bob Dylan, Blonde On Blonde,
97, Ann Pebbles,
98, Elvis Costello, Alison,
98, Elvis Costello, Little Triggers,
98, Elvis Costello, Man Out Of Time,
98, Elvis Costello, King Horse,
98, Elvis Costello, Everyday I write the book,
102, Albert King,
102, Albert Collins,
103, Solomon Burke,
112, Mr. Sixty-Minute Man,
115, Guy Clarke,
116, Patsy Cline,
117, Cowboy Junkies,
117, Nanci Griffith,
128, Charlie Rich, Behind Closed Doors,
131, Lyle Lovett,
136, Bruce Springsteen,
147, The Clash, Janie Jones,
147, Bruce Springsteen, Thunder Road,
147, Nirvana, Smells Like Teen Spirit,
147, Marvin Gaye, Let's Get It On,
147, Gram Parsons, Return Of The Grievous Angel,
147, The Beatles,
147, The Rolling Stones,
147, Beethoven, Fifth Symphony,
147, The Fire Engines,
152, The Sid James Experience,
155, Madness,
158, Bruce Springsteen, Bobby Jean, Born In The USA,
158, Bruce Springsteen, Thunder Road,
159, Richard Thompson, Has She Got A Friend For Me, I want to see the bright
lights,
160, Simple Minds,
160, Michael Bolton,
160, U2,
160, Bryan Adams,
160, Genesis,
162, Leo Sayer,
162, Bob Willis & The Texas Playboys,
167, Bob Dylan,
167, Sndtr, Fireball XL5,
168, Booker T. & The MG's,
168, Al Green, Sha La La, Greatest Hits,
168, Al Green, Explores Your Mind,
170, Cowboy Junkies,
175, REM,
175, Primal Scream,
175, Teenage Fanclub,
176, Status Quo,
184, Eurythmics,
186, The Beatles,
186, Nirvana,
186, Kraftwerk,
195, Television,
197, Dizzy Gillespie,
199, The Wailers,
202, The Auteurs,
202, St. Etienne,
202, Suede,
203, Steely Dan, Barrytown,
203, The Commitments,
205, Paul McCartney,
209, Pavorotti,
209, Tracy Chapman,
209, Bob Dylan, Greatest Hits,
209, The Beatles,
209, The Rolling Stones, Brown Sugar,
209, Hi Ho Silver Lining,
210, Donald Fagen, The Nightfly,
211, Little Walter,
211, Sting,
211, Junior Wells,
223, Love Hurts,
223, The Baron, Theme Song,
225, Richard Thompson,
225, Simple Minds,
227, Tie A Yellow Ribbon,
227, All Kinds Of Everything,
232, My Fair Lady,
233, Elton John, Song For Guy,
233, Magic,
233, Leader Of The Pack,
234, Jan & Dean, Dead Man's Curve,
234, Twinkle, Terry,
234, Bobby Goldsboro, And Honey I miss you,
234, Tell Laura I love Her,
234, Madness, One Step beyond,
234, You Can't Always Get What you Want,
234, Abraham Martin & John,
235, Black Sabbath,
235, Nirvana,
235, Bob Marley, One Love,
235, Jimmy Cliff, Many Rivers To Cross,
235, Aretha Franklin, Angel,
235, Gladys Knight, You're The Best thing that has ever happened to me,
239, The Beatles,
239, Barbara Steisand, ...Luckiest People in the World,
262, Simply Red,
262, Genesis,
262, Art Garfunkle, Bright Eyes,
263, Art Garfunkle,
263, Solomon Burke, Got to get you off of my mind,
265, Simply Red,
266, Diana Ross,
269, Elvis Presley,
271, Elvis Costello, Get Happy,
273, Dusty Springfield, The Look Of Love,
278, k.d. lang,
278, Dusty Springfield,
279, Tina Turner,
279, Billy Joel,
279, Kate Bush,
279, Pink Floyd,
279, Simply Red,
279, The Beatles,
279, Mike Oldfield, Tubular Bells,
279, Mike Oldfield, Tubular Bells 2,
279, Meatloaf,
279, The Eagles,
279, Barbara Dickerson,
280, Tina Turner,
282, Bob Dylan, Blonde on blonde,
282, Eric Clapton, Rainbow Concert,
285, Kraftwerk,
286, Bob Geldof, Live Aid,
287, Emmylou Harris, Boulder to Birmingham, Pieces of the Sky,
287, Butch Hancock,
287, All kinds of everything,
288, Paul McCartney, Let it be,
290, The Clash,
290, Sex Pistols,
290, Chrissie Hynde,
290, Aretha Franklin,
290, Wilson Pickett,
290, Solomon Burke,
290, Jimi Hendrix,
290, Mick Jagger,
290, Otis Redding,
293, Keith Richards,
293, Bill Wyman,
299, D
299, U2,
301, Madonna,
309, The Flying Burito Brothers, Sin City,
310, A Horse with no name,
310, Beep Beep,
310, Ma Baker,
310, My Boomerang won't come back,
310, Elvis Presley, Baby Let's Play House,
310, Aretha Franklin, Think,
310, Kingsmen, Louie Louie,
310, D Little Red Corvette,
310, Bob Marley, Stir It Up,
310, Aretha Franklin, Angel,
311, James Brown, Papa's Got a brand new bag,
311, Sly & The Family Stone, Family Affair,
312, Marvin Gaye, Let's Get it on,
312, Al Green,
312, The Clash,
312, Chuck Berry,
312, Solomon Burke,
313, Marvin Gaye, Let's Get it on,
313, Aretha Franklin, This is the house that jack built,
313, Chuck Berry, Back in the USA,
313, The Clash, White man in Hammersmith palais,
313, Al Green, So tired of being alone,
313, Elvis Presley, In the Ghetto,
315, Marvin Gaye, Let's Get it on,
321, O'Jays, Backstabbers,
321, Harold Melvin & The Bluenotes, Satisfaction Guaranteed,
321, Madonna, Holiday,
321, Donny Hathaway, The Ghetto,
321, The Specials, Nelson Mandela,
321, Twist and Shout,
321, Route 66,
321, Long Tall Sally,
321, Money,
321, Do you love me,
321, In the midnight hour,
321, La Bamba,
321, Solomon Burke, Got to get you off of my mind,




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Benito Vergara" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Collecting Music
Date: 25 Sep 1998 10:15:11 -0700

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail]
> [mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Robert A.
> Pleshar
> Sent: Friday, September 25, 1998 6:15 AM

> In the sake of disclosure, I just keep everything in alphabetical order.

Same here, AFX to Zorn.

Although speaking of AFX, I did debate for a while whether I was supposed to
file AFX and Polygon Window with Aphex Twin (the various monikers of Richard
D. James). Or whether Elph and Black Light District were to be filed under
Coil.

So for you alphabetical folks, is Naked City and Painkiller filed under
Zorn, or separately? (Is "Miles and Coltrane" under Miles or Coltrane?)

> People like Little Richard, Litle Walter, etc. give me some
> concern though.
> (File under "L' or "R"?) I'm not going to use their "real" names, so I
> usually file these sorts of names as if they were group names (i.e. under
> "L" for Little Richard).

My Professor Longhair CDs are under "P." PJ Harvey did confuse me for a
while, but since the singer is Polly Jean Harvey (and the band, I guess, is
PJ Harvey), I ended up placing the CDs between the Pixies and the Police.

Later,
Ben

np: boards of canada, "happy cycling"

http://www.bigfoot.com/~bvergara/
ICQ# 12832406


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Craig Rath <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Collecting Music
Date: 25 Sep 1998 12:26:39 -0500

TagYrIt wrote:

>In a message dated 98-09-25 08:42:20 EDT, you write:

<<      Same place I put my sole 3rd Bass CD: under "T".

      The only other discs I own where this comes up are those by 8 Bold
      Souls.

      Brian Olewnick
  >>

>Off the top of my head - and I use this method too - no one else here listens
>to 808 State or Phil Manzanera's 801?

801 Live is a great album - I have the same problem with where it goes.  Ei
for 801, M for Manzanera, or En for Eno?  I usually end up with it in Ei.

Speaking of hard to place albums, how about collaborations - Eno and Byrne
"My Life in the Bush of Ghosts" for example - I alternate that one.

I usually Alphabetize by Artist/Group then Chronological within that,
except for a few exceptions:  the Subharmonic label is all together,
Tzadiks are all together grouped by type in series number, Avant by series
number (except the composer ones which go at the beginning of the Tzadik
composer series), and PSF the same way, except sometimes the Haino-Specific
ones get pulled out into a separate section depending on my mood.  Also the
Tangerine Dream section has it's own tower.

Since I only do this about once a year, I usually end up with piles of
discs on the floor in the living room.  I tend to fill up a travel case
with about 24 discs and rotate them through the changer in the car, after
which they usually stay on the floor in the living room until the next time
the sorting bug hits me.  Close to a third of my collection is scattered by
that time.




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Sean Terwilliger <[e-mail]>
Subject: re: collecting
Date: 25 Sep 1998 13:38:57 -0400

Off the top of my head - and I use this method too - no one else here listens
>to 808 State or Phil Manzanera's 801?
>
I've got 801 Live. I file it under Eno. In EGCD cat. number order. (Which
is basically chronological.) If I had the Manzanera/801 - Listen now CD,
I'd file them together under "Eight". (Unless the spine said Manzanera/801
on it... see below).
Anyone else have a hard time with "Pigpen" vs. "Wayne Horvitz and Pigpen" I
put them all under Pigpen, but it doesn't make me very happy. How about
"Derek and the Ruins"?, D, B or R?. The new Skopelitis/Bjorkenheim disk
just says "Revelator" on the spine. I've got it under Skopelitis.

-Sean

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Steven Nilsen)
Subject: Monologue
Date: 25 Sep 1998 11:51:29 -0600

AN interesting note about "Monologues".  I heard it from Wayne, not
personally but I was in the room, that this disc was simply a compilation
of various studio segments that he'd been compiling.  None of thm were
really meant as songs, but when somebody at Tim Kerr produce them as an
albumn, he agreed to release.
If this is the kind of stuff Wayne Horvitz just messes around with, woah!
Man I do love "Monologue", it's pure Wayne Horvitz.

-Steven



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Manzanera
Date: 25 Sep 1998 14:12:35 EDT

In a message dated 98-09-25 13:25:17 EDT, you write:

>Off the top of my head - and I use this method too - no one else here listens
>to 808 State or Phil Manzanera's 801?
>
>

I doubt I'm the only one on this list that thinks "801 Live" is one great rock
album.

Dave Royko

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Collecting Music
Date: 25 Sep 1998 15:10:29 EDT

In a message dated 98-09-25 13:29:42 EDT, you write:

<<
 801 Live is a great album - I have the same problem with where it goes.  Ei
 for 801, M for Manzanera, or En for Eno?  I usually end up with it in Ei.

 Speaking of hard to place albums, how about collaborations - Eno and Byrne
 "My Life in the Bush of Ghosts" for example - I alternate that one.
  >>

My "Eights" are under "Eight" alphabetically' technically in this case it is a
band called 801, and not billed as "Manzanera and....". And with stuff like
Eno and Byrne...I decided that by default they go under who's name appears
first on the spine. Not foolproof, but it works.

Dale.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Chris Barrett" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Sorta stomp related -- not to beat a dead horse
Date: 25 Sep 1998 16:16:12 -0400

Has anyone seen, heard or heard about the compilation "Orbitones, Spoon
Harps & Mellowphones" on Ellipsis Arts records?   It was apparently
released on the 15th.  I just happen to see it at a listening station at
Borders and its apparently a CD of music created with experimental
instruments that includes a 96 page booklet.  Actually, the whole CD case
is the booklet.  Among the 19 tracks listed on it are Babbachichuja by Tom
Waits, Sonata XIV by John Cage and Waterphonics by Stomp (I'm assuming its
them).  What little I heard sounded pretty interesting.

There was also another CD there by the same label called "Gravikords
Whirlies and Pyrophon" with similiar packaging.  This one's 19 tracks
include by Harry Partch, Roger Moog, Ken Butler and Clara Rockmore.

Some tracks seem to be available for listening at CDNow.  Seems rather
timely and relevant here.....


-Chris



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Sorta stomp related -- not to beat a dead horse
Date: 25 Sep 1998 13:21:34 -0700


On Fri, 25 Sep 1998 16:16:12 -0400  "Chris Barrett" wrote:
>
> Has anyone seen, heard or heard about the compilation "Orbitones, Spoon
> Harps & Mellowphones" on Ellipsis Arts records?   It was apparently
> released on the 15th.  I just happen to see it at a listening station at
> Borders and its apparently a CD of music created with experimental
> instruments that includes a 96 page booklet.  Actually, the whole CD case
> is the booklet.  Among the 19 tracks listed on it are Babbachichuja by Tom
> Waits, Sonata XIV by John Cage and Waterphonics by Stomp (I'm assuming its
> them).  What little I heard sounded pretty interesting.
>
> There was also another CD there by the same label called "Gravikords
> Whirlies and Pyrophon" with similiar packaging.  This one's 19 tracks
> include by Harry Partch, Roger Moog, Ken Butler and Clara Rockmore.
>
> Some tracks seem to be available for listening at CDNow.  Seems rather
> timely and relevant here.....

I got it but I have mixed feelings about it. My main impression is:

    How is it that intruments which look so strange and interesting (on
    pictures) can produce so mundane and predictable sounds?

There are few good pieces (such as Cage's prepared piano, or Ellen Fulman's
long intrument one), but for most of the other pieces, you really have to
look at the picture and read the illustrating text to realize that the
instrument played is not a common one (used in some "extended technique"
approach), or simply a DX7 with a boring algorithm selection...

In fact, besides the Reichel piece (already mentioned), I had the same
feeling with the first volume.

But if you are there for the eye pleasure, these are definitely two very
pretty objects.

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "m. rizzi" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Collecting Music
Date: 25 Sep 1998 13:53:05 -0700 (PDT)

[e-mail] asked:
>>if one files cds alpha by artist/composer, where would you put 2 live crew? i
>>figured, since it starts with a number, it goes before "a". thoughts, coments,
>>suggestions?

To which Robert A. Pleshar replied:
>Numbers alphabetize alphabetically by the spelling of the number in most
>library alphebetization systems. Therefore, 2 Live Crew would be filed under
>"Two" in my collection

    This is an interesting topic. In my personal collection,
    the 2 Live Crew is also filed under "Two Live Crew".
    But, as a Music Librarian in charge of a 65,000 item
    collection I wrestle with this issue a lot. In my case,
    the collection is used daily by a radio station of
    volunteers.

    Converting numerals in a band/artist name to text
    works when you assume that the conversion is unique
    (as the 2 Live Crew example). Unfortunately, this
    is not always the case, take for example, the
    band Spot 1019, which could be filed as
        spot one zero one nine
        spot one thousand nineteen
        spot one thousand and nineteen
        spot ten nineteen (correct pronunciation of the band name)
    or the previous example of 808 State which is
    pronounced Eight Oh Eight State. This is when
    converting numerals to text breaks down.

    Currently, the library uses the pronunciation approach
    which has the problem of forcing the DJ to know
    the correct pronunciation of the band/artist. Not
    a good thing. Over the years, I've been leaning towards
    the numeral before text approach (Spot 1019 before
    Spotless, for example).

>In the sake of disclosure, I just keep everything in alphabetical order.
>People like Little Richard, Litle Walter, etc. give me some concern though.
>(File under "L' or "R"?) I'm not going to use their "real" names, so I
>usually file these sorts of names as if they were group names (i.e. under
>"L" for Little Richard).

    That is the system we use as well.

    Don't get me started on the artists that change their
    name in small (2Pac, Tupac,...) and large ways (the
    many incarnations of Foetus).   Heh. :)

    mike
    ObZorn: The Mike Patton composition before Zorn's
    Xu Feng at Slim's last week was quite excellent.
    I forget the name, but it had William Winant doing
    Korean percussion, a fine turntablist, and Patton
    singing in Porteguese. Hope it sees a release.

--
[e-mail] -------------------------------------- www.browbeat.com
                   "Another nerd with a soulpatch"
-------- browbeat magazine, po box 11124, oakland, ca 94611-1124 -------

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Lon Huber <[e-mail]>
Subject: Listening Groups
Date: 25 Sep 1998 14:26:33 -0800

Benito Vergara wrote:
>And about those listening groups -- they sound really interesting. Any
>helpful suggestions on how to organize one? Do you listen to music
>thematically, chronologically, or whatever? (Respond privately if you >want.)

Mine's loose. Every other Sunday afternoon, I power up the Aragon (See how
it makes the lights dim? I get a real kick out of that.) and slap some
vinyl on the Linn or a piece plastic in the Planet. The organization
consisted of letting all my music pals know that I do this every other
Sunday afternoon, come hell or high water, and that anyone is welcome to
drop by between the hours of Noon and 5:00pm with whatever they wanted to
play. If no one shows up, I listen to whatever I bought that week, or
whatever in my collection sparks my interest. If someone does show up, we
take turns playing tracks. Invariably, the last piece of music played gives
someone an idea for the next piece to play, so we end up slipping all over
genres and artists for several hours and a very heady cross-pollination
nearly always results. We've done it thematically once or twice, say, by
genre or artist, and that's fun, too.

I'll never forget the thing that happened last week, when a younger friend
of mine played me Gastr del Sol, who I'd never heard and had been meaning
to check out, and I followed that with the old Xenakis album,
Electroacoustic Music.

Paul: 'What's this?'
Lon: 'Early electonics, electroacoustic music.'
Paul: 'Early, like '70s?'
Lon: 'Early, like 1957.'
Paul: [prolonged silence] 'Wow.'

Lon / coelacanth-x / www.coelacanth-x.com

Today's Obsessions: Time, goat milk-n-cookies, coughing.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Circle9 <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Recent Reading, was Re[2]: collecting music
Date: 25 Sep 1998 17:37:17 -0400

Caleb Deupree wrote:

> Underworld started a year of long novels, which also included Mason &
> Dixon and Infinite Jest.  The trouble with all these ultra long,
> excessive, complex novels is that you have to read them twice to
> figure out what's what.  I find that they're also spoilers for
> ordinary novels, which don't seem as interesting any more (in much the
> same way that alternative pop doesn't sound interesting after Naked
> City).
>
> Love this thread.  I'm saving these book related messages the same way
> I saved all the top 20s last year.
> ---
> Caleb T. Deupree

Really? I see what you mean about Underworld and IJ, but the Pynchon I found
to just be a fun, goofy romp. Kind of like a big, burly Mark Twain travelogue
(though perhaps crossed with a Dennis Miller monologue...) But my vote for the
best (so far) this year goes to either "Underworld" or "Cold Mountain"- which,
monster best-seller that it was, I did not expect to be nearly so brilliant.

Recent read: Bret Easton Ellis' "The Informers"- those that only know him from
"American Psycho"- whether the liked it or not-  should give this one a spin.
It's nothing but a bunch of Hollywood rich kids popping pills, having sex, and
getting tans, but with a palpable undercurrent of menace and evil that's hard
to describe. A much angrier work than AP, and not nearly as satirical. It came
out a couple of years ago, but I didn't get around to it until recently. Kind
of reminded me of "The Player" in some ways, but without any of the wink-wink
humor, and much, much darker in tone.

As for Jim Thompson- always one of my faves, but definately spotty. You have
to remember that he wrote for the pulps, and his books are probably only the
half of what he intended most of the time. But considering that he was working
within those constraints, his output is certainly amazing. And those works
which did manage to sneak through unfettered- "The Killer Inside Me", "The
Criminal", etc., - WOW!

Anyway, maybe we can all drop some "Top Ten" lists to feel out where the list
stands on literature. I'll break the ice first:

(Sticking to fiction, here...)

Ten good reads I've had in the last couple years- in no special order
1. The Virgin Suicides- Jeffrey Eugenides
2. The Informers- Ellis
3. Underworld- DeLillo
4. Cold Mountain- Charles Frazier
5. We Were the Mulvaneys- Joyce Carol Oates
        -(last 30 or so pages were a cop-out, but the buildup was great...)
6. Cruising Paradise- Sam Shepard
7. Mason + Dixon- Pynchon
8. I Can't Wait on God- Albert French
9. Jesus Saves- Darcy Steinke
10. Bad Behavior- Mary Gaitskill
11. The Ax- Donald Westlake
(okay, so it was eleven...)

Ten authors I can usually count on:
1. Pynchon
2. DeLillo (esp. White Noise)
3. J. G. Ballard (esp. The Atrocity Exhibition)
4. Gore Vidal ("Duluth" and "Burr" stand out)
5. W. S. Burroughs
(funny little interlude- A friend of mine named Bill grew up in Lawrence,
Kansas. The reason he goes by "Bill" and not "William" is because he didn't
want the same name as that "creepy old man upstairs who's always touching me".
One guess who that creep turned out to be...)
6. The collected (particularly later) works of Philip K. Dick
7. Jim Thompson (but that's already been established)
8. Stanislaw Lem
9. The most of Elmore Leonard- yeah, it ain't brainy stuff, but I try not to
be a brainy guy...
10. Alright, alright, I'm a Stephen King fan (most of the time). I'm blushing
with embarrasment. But like I heard some columnist say once: "No one stays up
'til four in the morning 'cause they just HAVE TO find out how "Gravity's
Rainbow" ends..."

I suppose we could do this sort of thing with anything... Films, Plays, TV
shows, Pasta dishes, members of Menudo...

    -SG


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dan Hewins <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Listening Groups
Date: 25 Sep 1998 16:47:34 -0500

That would be a good time to make a mix tape...

>If someone does show up, we
>take turns playing tracks. Invariably, the last piece of music played gives
>someone an idea for the next piece to play, so we end up slipping all over
>genres and artists for several hours and a very heady cross-pollination
>nearly always results. We've done it thematically once or twice, say, by
>genre or artist, and that's fun, too.



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Theo Klaase)
Subject: Heretic
Date: 25 Sep 1998 18:05:49 -0500 (CDT)

     Will someone please record Naked City's "Heretic" album and send it
to me so I can decide if I should buy it.  I'll do the same if you don't
have one of the following:

Zony Mash and Horvitz:  Cold Spell
Naked City:  torcher garden, radio, leng tche
Pigpen:  Half-track
Classic Guide to Strategy
Filmworks 1,3,5,6, or 8
Spy vs. Spy
Nani Nani
Spillane

contact me privately,  Thank You


-Theo


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Lang Thompson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Alan Shorter's "Orgasm"
Date: 25 Sep 1998 19:42:46 -0400

Anybody have any idea what this is like?  The cover claims it's
"challenging" and invokes Ornette but otherwise I'm not sure whether it's
more than merely interesting, especially at full price.

LT
Lang Thompson
http://www.tcf.ua.edu/wlt4

New at the Funhouse website:  Did Elvis Steal Rock 'n'
Roll?, The X-Files Movie Bites!, music reviews

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: stephen drury <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Merkin (NYC) on 10/21
Date: 25 Sep 1998 23:17:10 -0400

At 07:46 AM 9/25/98 -0600,brian_olewnick wrote:
>     "The John Zorn Ensemble" is playing Merkin (NYC) on 10/21.
>
>     No program is listed, but the performers include Mark Feldman, Erik
>     Friedlander, Anthony Coleman, Stephen Drury, Jim Pugliese, William
>     Winant and "others".
>
>     Any idea of the program, Mr. Drury?

As far as I know, it includes "Music for Children" for piano violin and
percussion, "Carny" (I think) for solo piano, maybe "Memento Mori" for
string quartet ... don't quote me ...
  ---steve


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re:  Alan Shorter's "Orgasm"
Date: 26 Sep 1998 00:13:11 EDT


In a message dated 9/25/98 7:43:50 PM, [e-mail] wrote:

<<Anybody have any idea what this is like?  The cover claims it's
"challenging" and invokes Ornette but otherwise I'm not sure whether it's
more than merely interesting, especially at full price.>>

I only heard it once, but I didn't think it was nearly as "out" as the sticker
on the front claimed. I wasn't impressed enough to buy it.

Jon

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Silent Watcher" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Masada @ Tonic this past Thursday...
Date: 25 Sep 1998 21:48:33 PDT

Was curious if anyone knew the answer to this one...

I saw the 9:00 Masada show the other night at Tonic, and was curious if
anyone knew who the older people sitting up on the stage were. I assume
they were in some way important to someone in the group since there were
only 4 people up there. The older woman wrote in a notebook for most of
the show and didn't seem to be paying attention. The best part, however,
was when the older gentleman whipped out a newspaper about halfway
through the show. They seemed a little apathetic...

DB
Bill Laswell and Lori Carson Discographies at :
http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Underground/7093

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Silent Watcher" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Masada @ Tonic this past Thursday...
Date: 25 Sep 1998 21:48:33 PDT

Was curious if anyone knew the answer to this one...

I saw the 9:00 Masada show the other night at Tonic, and was curious if
anyone knew who the older people sitting up on the stage were. I assume
they were in some way important to someone in the group since there were
only 4 people up there. The older woman wrote in a notebook for most of
the show and didn't seem to be paying attention. The best part, however,
was when the older gentleman whipped out a newspaper about halfway
through the show. They seemed a little apathetic...

DB
Bill Laswell and Lori Carson Discographies at :
http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Underground/7093

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re:  RE: Collecting Music
Date: 26 Sep 1998 00:58:42 EDT


In a message dated 9/25/98 13:39:55, you wrote:

>So for you alphabetical folks, is Naked City and Painkiller filed under
>
>Zorn, or separately? (Is "Miles and Coltrane" under Miles or Coltrane?)

i have naked city and painkiller under naked city and painkiller respectively.
the one exception is the album titled naked city. that goes under john zorn.

btw, i put miles and coltrane under davis, miles.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Heretic
Date: 26 Sep 1998 04:40:59 EDT

In a message dated 9/25/98 7:09:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Vlad-
[e-mail] writes:

>      Will someone please record Naked City's "Heretic" album and send it
>  to me so I can decide if I should buy it.

Take my word for it- BUY IT.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Chris Genzel)
Subject: Re: collection
Date: 26 Sep 1998 15:52:32 +0200


 Hi,

 sorry if this is a bit late, but I'm a few digests behind.

 I've sorted my collection alphabetically and chronologically within
 alphabetically. There are, of course, a few problems with that, as some people
 pointed out:

 That "Little Richard" problem: I've put Little Walter under L, but where should
 I put Lightnin' Hopkins? I put him under H, as his real name is Sam Hopkins,
 so Lightnin' is just sort of a nickname. Lil' Kim? L. But here's a tough one:
 "Eric Burdon declares WAR".

 I put all soundtracks under the title of the film, regardless of who did the
 soundtrack. So Ry Cooder's Crossroads doesn't stand together with Cooder's
 Paris, Texas but to the right hand of Crooklyn Dub Consortium. The problem
 turns up with John Carpenter's soundtracks, because I have one Carpenter Best
 Of, which stands under C, but his other discs (They Live, Halloween) are put
 elsewhere.

 4hero stands under F like Four Hero. Not too difficult.

 I always leave "The" at the beginning of a title out, so "The Dark Side of
 the Moog" stands under D. What about an "A"? That sampler "A Little Magic
 in a Noisy World" is right at the beginning of the collection, but it would
 be more consequent if I'd put it under L.

 Brian's problem with having to remove Muhal from his front position: there's
 also a good side to this - I admit I bought Zorn only not to have Zawinul at
 the end of my collection. Hector Zazou also helped.

 The chronological order is also a bit difficult: I put best of discs always
 at the end of that artist's output; but discs like Scorn's "Deliverance" 1997
 CD are difficult to place - should I put it behind "Vae Solis", because the
 original came out after that, or should I file it at the end because it's a
 new release with the Weatherall remixes as bonus tracks?

 Not to sort by genre or these things is quite funny actually when Mussorgsky
 stands right next to Napalm Death.

 Another problem: Laswell's "Oscillations" is of course filed under L, but
 what about the Oscillations Remixes? I've put it under O, because it doesn't
 have Laswell's name on it and Laswell didn't work on it. And between
 Oscillations 1 and 2 Laswell put out some other stuff, so 1+2 don't stand
 next each other.

 To that person with the car/walkman system: I didn't find your system crazy
 at all, but I gasped for breath when I read that you have 15,000 items in
 your collection. My collection of over 500 seems so small and insignificant
 in comparison. What's interesting about people's collection is their age:
 I'm 20 right now, so 500 items is quite a lot actually I think.

 I'd put AMM between Anderson, Laurie and Allen, Daevid.

 Plus: I've never ever sold or gave away a CD even if I hated it, e.g. Goldie's
 Saturnz Return which I've never heard all the way through - I'm just too much
 of a collector. Yes, it's too much music than I could ever listen to, but as
 someone pointed out a while ago on this list: it's a quality of life thing.
 I also liked that library point.

 Regarding books, has anyone read John Fowles' "The Magus"? I found this
 very fascinating and couldn't read anything else after I finished it because
 it stayed with me for months.

 Kind regards,
 - Chris.

 ---------------------------------------------
 *    Chris Genzel --- [e-mail]    *
 * Homepage & Herbie Hancock discography at: *
 *    http://home.t-online.de/home/stamil/   *
 ---------------------------------------------


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Collecting Music
Date: 26 Sep 1998 10:43:30 EDT

How do you people file CDs/LPs of duos/trios/quartets/etc. where no one
musician is clearly "the leader" of the group?  I usually file it under the
name of the first musician that appears in the title/credits...

=dgasque=

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Masada @ Tonic this past Thursday...
Date: 26 Sep 1998 10:43:31 EDT

In a message dated 9/26/98 3:15:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< I saw the 9:00 Masada show the other night at Tonic, and was curious if
 anyone knew who the older people sitting up on the stage were. I assume
 they were in some way important to someone in the group since there were
 only 4 people up there. The older woman wrote in a notebook for most of
 the show and didn't seem to be paying attention. The best part, however,
 was when the older gentleman whipped out a newspaper about halfway
 through the show. They seemed a little apathetic... >>

The guy with the newspaper was Amos Ormondi.  (hee hee)

=dgasque=

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Alan Shorter's "Orgasm"
Date: 26 Sep 1998 12:49:30 -0400 (EDT)

If you like "early" free jazz you'll love it. Gato Barbieri (pre -Last
Tango and A&M) is on it at his fiery best, plus good bass work from Charlie
Haden and both Rashied and Muhammed Ali (not together). From the 1998
perspective, it sounds pretty "mainstream" (for The New Thing), so it
shouldn't frighten non-jazzbos.

Furthermore it's one of the few times Alan Shorter recorded, besides
"Four For Trane" and some Marion Brown sessions; it has updated liner
notes by Amiri Baraka (not those "it was good enuf for 1964, leave 'em"
jokes on Impulse! reissues; and where else are you gonna get a picture
of Muhammed Ali?

Ken Waxman
[e-mail]




On Fri, 25 Sep 1998, Lang Thompson wrote:

> Anybody have any idea what this is like?  The cover claims it's
> "challenging" and invokes Ornette but otherwise I'm not sure whether it's
> more than merely interesting, especially at full price.
>
> LT
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Lang Thompson
> http://www.tcf.ua.edu/wlt4
>
> New at the Funhouse website:  Did Elvis Steal Rock 'n'
> Roll?, The X-Files Movie Bites!, music reviews
>
> -
>
>

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: SUGAR in their vitamins? <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Main/ Organum
Date: 26 Sep 1998 09:58:19 -0700 (PDT)

On Wed, 23 Sep 1998, William York wrote:

> _Firmament III_.  When I listened to these I thought of AMM (except the
> Main stuff is more flattened out if that makes sense -more quiet humming
> sounds and less industrial sounding noise), and then

it's not too far off.
David Jackman, aka Organum used to
be involved with Cornelius Cardew's
Scratch Orchestra. not to mention,
Jackman and Prevost are very good friends.

Organum is essentially David Jackman,
but a variety of folk have worked
with Jackman as members of Organum.

> looking through the Matchless catalogue in the CD I have there is a CD by
> Organum which is said to include among others Keith Rowe, Jim O'Rourke
> (what other O'Rourke could it be?) and somebody Hampson.

the disc you're referring to,
"Veil of Tears" is a collection of
live and studio Organum recordings.
members of Organum for these recordings
included: Michael Prime, DINAH Jane Rowe
(not Keith Rowe, sorry), Jim O'Rourke,
Robert Hampson and the Rupenus
brothers aka The New Blockaders.

note the split Organum/Prevost EP
originally released by Silent records was
also issued on CD by Matchless.

> Is this the same
> person as Robert Hampson from Main, and if so is the album worth me
> dishing out $17 for?

yes and yes.

> Anyway I also find it interesting that folks like Hampson, James Plotkin,
> and some other guys like this came out of the Earache thing and are now
> doing this super-quiet stuff, although I haven't followed the in between
> points that connect Napalm Death to Main.

Hampson started Loop. he was never
involved with Napalm Death, however
he was, briefly, a member of Godflesh
for their 1992 european tour.
after Loop broke up, Hampson went on
to form Main.

i keep a Main website.

www.esophagus.com/main

there's also an excellent Organum website.

www.brainwashed/organum

hth!

hasta.

Yes.  Beautiful, wonderful nature.  Hear it sing to us: *snap*  Yes.  natURE.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Benito Vergara" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: collection
Date: 26 Sep 1998 10:28:26 -0700

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail]
> [mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Chris Genzel
> Sent: Saturday, September 26, 1998 6:53 AM

>  Not to sort by genre or these things is quite funny actually
> when Mussorgsky
>  stands right next to Napalm Death.

Mussorgsky's kissing the back of My Bloody Valentine as we speak.

And [e-mail] [mailto:[e-mail]] wrote on Friday, September 25,
1998 9:59 PM:

> i have naked city and painkiller under naked city and painkiller
> respectively.
> the one exception is the album titled naked city. that goes under
> john zorn.

Same here. I figure it's because that Elektra/Nonesuch release of "Naked
City" has Zorn's name on the spine, while the others don't...

And thanks to Lon Huber for the listening group tips. I gotta try it out on
some willing friends.

And so I end with a quote for all you fellow-obsessives from Walter
Benjamin's 1931 essay, "Unpacking My Library" (translated by Hannah Arendt):

"...ownership is the most intimate relationship that one can have to
objects. Not that they come alive in him; it is he who lives in them."

Later,
Ben

http://www.bigfoot.com/~bvergara/
ICQ# 12832406


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Benito Vergara" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Masada @ Tonic this past Thursday...
Date: 26 Sep 1998 11:33:39 -0700

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail]
> [mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of [e-mail]
> Sent: Saturday, September 26, 1998 7:44 AM
>
>  was when the older gentleman whipped out a newspaper about halfway
>  through the show. They seemed a little apathetic... >>
>
> The guy with the newspaper was Amos Ormondi.  (hee hee)

LOL -- he's not on this list, is he?

Wait, what am I saying...

Later,
Ben


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: SUGAR in their vitamins? <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Collecting Music
Date: 26 Sep 1998 11:39:14 -0700 (PDT)

On Fri, 25 Sep 1998 [e-mail] wrote:

> if one files cds alpha by artist/composer, where would you put 2 live crew? i
> figured, since it starts with a number, it goes before "a". thoughts, coments,
> suggestions?

it depends...

libraries tend to file numbers before A.
whereas, radio stations tend to
spell out the numeral and file accordingly.

your mileage may vary...

hasta.

Yes.  Beautiful, wonderful nature.  Hear it sing to us: *snap*  Yes.  natURE.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Matthew Colonnese)
Subject: radical science redux
Date: 26 Sep 1998 15:07:46 -0400

 You should be aware, for example, that Pinker is
>something of a genetic determinist: he thinks our behavior is caused by and
>excused by our genes.  This is an extremely radical view.
                                             ^^^^^^^
On a list self-conciously dedicated to all things 'radical', this is
perhaps not the best way to debunk ole Pinker.  More like 'simplistic' and
not supported by most of what we know about genetics.  I think folks like
Dennet and Pinker (and the guys who wrote _The Bell Curve_) would like to
couch their arguements as fighting the mainstream and being 'radical' (e.g
Dennet's _Darwin's Dangerous Idea_) but really draw on a long tradition of
inherent human nature
(sort of like Kenny G. is a radical rebellion against the hegmony of the
avant-guarde); as long or longer than the those they contrast themselves
with.

In any case, no armchair biologist should do a shot of Dennet, Pinker, or
Dawkins without setting up a refreshing chaser of Lewinton, Rose, or even
Gould.

To move this to nominally Zorn land:  how do folks on this list involved in
nominally 'rationalist' enterprises which include concensus building as
part of their structure (I'm mostly thinking of scientific research here,
but substititue anything else) work this in with a musical and artistic
taste that runs to the non-mainstream, suposedly 'radical', if you will.
Simply separate aestetics and research?  Or are their some more clever
synthesis out there?

matt

ps.
A much more moderate
>view is that behavior is caused by the interaction of our genes, our minds, and
>the world.

I'd just like to reiterate that what Eric probably also means in place of
'moderate' is 'accurate' and 'in accordance with everything we know about
genetics--esp mammalian behaviour genetics'.



------
"Finally, a thing-a-ma-giggy that would bring people together...even if it
kept them apart, spatially."



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Nathalie Claeys" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn List Digest V2 #477
Date: 26 Sep 1998 19:07:27 +0200

>> Underworld started a year of long novels, which also included Mason &
>> Dixon and Infinite Jest.  The trouble with all these ultra long,
>> excessive, complex novels is that you have to read them twice to
>> figure out what's what.  I find that they're also spoilers for
>> ordinary novels, which don't seem as interesting any more (in much the
>> same way that alternative pop doesn't sound interesting after Naked
>> City).

Personally I don't have that with music. Nor with reading. I can just as
easily obsess over John Zorn as over Sparklehorse. I don't see GoodMorning
Spider losing that sparkle if I play Naked City first. Both discs sound
absolutely smashing.
Currently reading Underworld myself. Been ploughing through it. Hopefully
it gets finished by the turn of the century. Although I am not a big DeLillo
fan, I enjoy reading his books. I started with Great Jones Street which was
really fun.

>Top ten?

Bukowski, Bukowski, Bukowski, Bukowski, Bukowski,... ad infinitum. Oh yes,
and I also like Crichton as a guilty pleasure.

Nathalie Claeys

np UNKLE

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: chad edwards <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fantamos anyone?
Date: 26 Sep 1998 13:32:45 -0700 (PDT)


I'll be making a special trip to Seattle on the 16th
of next month just to see Fantamos.
Can anyone who has seen them please brief me on what
to expect?

Chad.




_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Gene Natalia <[e-mail]>
Subject: Who cares?
Date: 26 Sep 1998 14:06:17 -0700

Can we end this ridiculous thread where every geek on the list tells all
the other geeks how he alphabetizes?  Here's how I file my cd's:  I put
them where I can find them, which happens to be alphabetically.  It's a
personal thing that varies from person to person.  I don't feel egocentric
enough to detail to you all MY PERSONAL method of filing everything.  I
have a hard time believing that you all find one another's methods of
categorization so intriguing that we need dozens of posts about it.  I sure
don't enjoy receiving 12 e-mails a day regarding where 2Live Crew goes in
your collections.  I notice a trend on this list where many people feel
COMPELLED to get their 2 cents in, regardless of whether they're just being
redundant or irrelevant.  Can we shed these solipsistic tendencies?  I
can't believe there aren't others who share my sentiments.  I apologize if
I'm wrong, and everyone else enjoys a myriad of useless e-mails per day.  I
just hate sifting through all your posts every day to find the one or two
worth reading.  If I'm wrong, let me know.  I do understand what it's like
to find kindred spirits to discuss these sorts of thing with.  I know not
many people have cd collections that number in the hundreds, but get over it.

                                    Ethan Danberry


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Corey Marc Fogel <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Fantamos anyone?
Date: 26 Sep 1998 14:24:05 -0700 (MST)



On Sat, 26 Sep 1998, chad edwards wrote:

> I'll be making a special trip to Seattle on the 16th
> of next month just to see Fantamos.
> Can anyone who has seen them please brief me on what
> to expect?

special trip indeed, for a band you need to first be briefed on

theyre jagged metal/eerie/something. with "comic book sounds and babytalk" in
place of lyrics.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rick Lopez <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Who cares?
Date: 26 Sep 1998 19:36:51 -0300

Gene Natalia wrote:
>

lighten up, Francis...

> Can we end this ridiculous thread where every geek on the list tells all
> the other geeks how he alphabetizes?  Here's how I file my cd's:  I put
> them where I can find them, which happens to be alphabetically.  It's a
> personal thing that varies from person to person.  I don't feel egocentric
> enough to detail to you all MY PERSONAL method of filing everything.  I
> have a hard time believing that you all find one another's methods of
> categorization so intriguing that we need dozens of posts about it.  I sure
> don't enjoy receiving 12 e-mails a day regarding where 2Live Crew goes in
> your collections.  I notice a trend on this list where many people feel
> COMPELLED to get their 2 cents in, regardless of whether they're just being
> redundant or irrelevant.  Can we shed these solipsistic tendencies?  I
> can't believe there aren't others who share my sentiments.  I apologize if
> I'm wrong, and everyone else enjoys a myriad of useless e-mails per day.  I
> just hate sifting through all your posts every day to find the one or two
> worth reading.  If I'm wrong, let me know.  I do understand what it's like
> to find kindred spirits to discuss these sorts of thing with.  I know not
> many people have cd collections that number in the hundreds, but get over it.
>
>                                                                         Ethan Danberry
>
> -

--
Marilyn Crispell, Sam Rivers, Matthew Shipp, David S. Ware, and Reggie
Workman discographies; Samuel Beckett Eulogy; Baseball & the 10,000
Things; Time Stops; etc., at--
http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Saidel Eric J <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: radical science redux
Date: 26 Sep 1998 22:34:47 -0500 (CDT)

NO ZORN CONTENT HERE AT ALL!

Sorry for wasting bandwith on this, folks; I'm only sending this to the
list in case there happen to be others who are paying attention.  If you
think this is a stupid waste of your time please delete.


Me:
>
>  You should be aware, for example, that Pinker is
> >something of a genetic determinist: he thinks our behavior is caused by and
> >excused by our genes.  This is an extremely radical view.
>                                              ^^^^^^^

Matt:
> On a list self-conciously dedicated to all things 'radical', this is
> perhaps not the best way to debunk ole Pinker.

Right.  I was using the word "radical" in a different sense.  I just meant
that it was an extreme view, the same way the view that we are completely
products of our environments is an extreme view.  I was not attempting
to debunk Pinker.  As it turns out, I disagree with Pinker, but debunking
him would take much more time and space than I am willing to spend,
especially here.


Me again:
> A much more moderate
> >view is that behavior is caused by the interaction of our genes, our minds, and
> >the world.

Matt again:
>
> I'd just like to reiterate that what Eric probably also means in place of
> 'moderate' is 'accurate' and 'in accordance with everything we know about
> genetics--esp mammalian behaviour genetics'.
>

No.  That's not what I meant.  I do think the moderate view is more likely
to be true, given what we know about evolution, but what I meant was that
this view is moderate - it's not extreme.  That's all.  I'm not always
as careful about what I say as I should be, but this time I did say what
I wanted to say.

- eric



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Who cares?
Date: 26 Sep 1998 23:45:59 EDT

Goddamn, dude...

I get every post you get and this thread hasn't generated any more than 20 or
so posts over the past 5 days.  Why don't you do what most people with a grip
on their life do- simply delete the unwanted threads before reading them?
I'll be glad to explain the procedure if you aren't familiar.

Jeezus, some people and their limited range of tolerance...

=dgasque=

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Who cares?
Date: 27 Sep 1998 00:27:45 -0400

Gene Natalia wrote:

> Can we end this ridiculous thread where every geek on the list tells all
> the other geeks how he alphabetizes?

Whoa there.  Didn't you *know* you were entering Geekville when you signed the guestbook
at the city limits, Maynard?  You might try to be a bit more charitable... it's generally
speaking the spirit of the Zornlist.  And many 'round these parts don't mind the
occasional goofy thread like filing systems, favorite books and the like because it's a
sort of goofy/brainy chatter that typical avant-geeks aren't going to find at the local
cocktail party, water cooler or brewpub.  Those who *do* mind generally make more
judicious use of the delete button instead of denegrating fellow travellers.

Until someone brings up Stomp.  Then all hell breaks loose...

Steve Smith
[e-mail]


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Recent Reading, was Re[2]: collecting music
Date: 27 Sep 1998 00:42:40 -0400

[e-mail] wrote:

>         Underworld              Don Delillo
>
>         What'd you think Steve? I found it a bit uneven, though the ups=
ides
>         are higher than most you'll find elsewhere. Some gorgeous writi=
ng
>         and an enjoyable, for me, baseball thread.

Believe it or not, I haven't read it.  I got it for Christmas and decided=
 I'd
best read some "back catalog" to get myself better equipped.  Enjoyed "Wh=
ite
Noise" tremendously, as well as parts of "Americana" though I can't say I=
 found
the latter completely successful (but it *was* his first novel and parts =
of it
are outstanding.  "Libra," the first DeLillo I read, knocked me for a loo=
p...
this was one brilliant read.  In particular the stream-of-consciousness
Southernisms of Lee Harvey Oswald's mother struck me as beautifully music=
al
(remember I'm a lifetime Southerner before moving to New York in '93), an=
d the
multiple POVs are pulled off with aplomb.  Currently working on "Ratner's=
 Star,"
with "Underworld" due next, though most likely I won't get to it until it=
s first
anniversary (which is not at all unusual in my experience... and I've got=
s piles
of newer unread stuff from William Vollman to Kinky Friedman waiting in t=
he
wings...)

Also really dug David Bowman's surreal "Let the Dog Drive."  And I'm look=
ing
forward to reading the sequel to "Sophie's World" any month now...

>         Strong Opinions         Vladmir Nabokov

Must admit I know woefully little Nabokov, but "Pale Fire" has been a fav=
orite
for years.

And, damning me as a sentimentalist, I must admit I adore Mark Helprin - =
even his
juvenile and young adult titles - even though I've learned he's a Repulic=
an
speechwriter in his spare time.

Steve Smith
[e-mail]
NP - H=FCsker D=FC, "Zen Arcade" (since I didn't go to Bob Mould's "final=
 electric
show" tonight...)


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re:  Who cares?
Date: 27 Sep 1998 01:42:50 EDT


In a message dated 9/26/98 17:37:25, you wrote:

>solipsistic

this is gonna be my new word of the week. great music, great books, now great
vocabulary words. this list has everything!

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Brian Olewnick <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Recent Reading, was Re[2]: collecting music
Date: 27 Sep 1998 08:59:45 -0400

Steve Smith wrote:
> and I've gots piles
> of newer unread stuff from William Vollman to Kinky Friedman waiting in the
> wings...)

I was going to bring up Vollman here though he, apparently, has stopped
his rather Zornian practice of putting out a book a month this past year
or two, so it's been a while since I've read anything of his. But I do
think he's one hell of a writer at his best (IMHO, 'The Ice Shirt').
Difficult, obscure, bordering on extreme self-indulgence (hey! more
Zornocity!), self-flagellating (!) but well worth the ride.


> And, damning me as a sentimentalist, I must admit I adore Mark Helprin - even his
> juvenile and young adult titles - even though I've learned he's a Repulican
> speechwriter in his spare time.

Just goes to show...you know, it is possible that great art gets
produced by folk with differing political opinions. Helprin's another
beautiful writer; his 'Memoirs from an Ant-Proof Case' was one of the
finer novels of the last few years and 'Winter's Tale' is, of course, a
classic. You're evincing dangerously good taste for a Yes fan, Steve.
;-)

Brian Olewnick

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tom Pratt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Alan Shorter's "Orgasm"
Date: 27 Sep 1998 09:49:36 -0400

I think this record's actually quite good. There's a lot of ostinato
bass work and Ornette-ish melodies. Alan, Gato play throughout and the
rhythm section is split with Haden and Rashied Ali and then Muhammad Ali
and some other bassist. It's certainly worth picking up as it's a
limited edition reissue and the original vinyl goes for $100 or more.

                -Tom Pratt

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tom Pratt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Neubauten rec
Date: 27 Sep 1998 13:55:32 -0400

What would you all recommend as the best Einsturzende Neubauten???

                -Tom Pratt

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Artur Nowak" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: collection
Date: 27 Sep 1998 21:30:39 +0200

>  Plus: I've never ever sold or gave away a CD even if I
> hated it

Hey, give me your address, and I'll send you a thousands of crapy CDs
just to fill your house and make you buy another one.  :-)

There is a sollution for all you collectors: "The CD server". It is a
HP-UX based server with the SQL database, industrial network,
programmable controllers, speech recognition system and few industrial
robots. All you do is just enter all the data about your CDs into the
database (through a very nice X-Windows terminal), and put all the CDs
to specially for this purpose designed shelves. The order does not
matter (this is convinience!), because the robots have barcode readers
and can categorire all your CDs by the barcodes printed on the back
cover of the CD and enter their possition on the shelves to the
database. Then you just say loud the title of the CD and the robot will
pick it up from the shelve and put it into your CD player. You can pick
CDs by release date, artists, track titles... To run the whole system
you need air conditioned room with raised floor for the server and
terminal, room for the robots and PLCs, room for the CDs, and the room
for you and your CD player of course. This system will solve all the
problems with the order of the CDs on the shelves!!!

Regards

     __________________________________________________________________
     Artur Nowak [[e-mail]]
     www.silesia.top.pl/~arno/default.htm - Discography of Bill Frisell



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Noel Akchote concerts?
Date: 27 Sep 1998 21:36:19 EDT

so, I know Akchote is doing an in-store at DMG this Tuesday at 7. anyone know
if he's playing any other concerts while he's in NYC?

thanks,
Jon

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Recent Reading, was Re[2]: collecting music
Date: 28 Sep 1998 00:00:49 -0400

Brian Olewnick wrote:

> I was going to bring up Vollman here though he, apparently, has stopped
> his rather Zornian practice of putting out a book a month this past year
> or two, so it's been a while since I've read anything of his.

Vollman was a frequent contributor to Spin in the late years of the Guccione era, and
is now contributing to Guccione's new men's mag (in the spirit of Details and Maxim,
not his pop's mag) Gear, which had an article by Vollman on the subject of post-Gulf
War Iraq.  I have the issue but have yet to read the article.  (I anticipate catching
up on a lot of reading after I move to Long Island City this Friday.)

> Helprin's another
> beautiful writer; his 'Memoirs from an Ant-Proof Case' was one of the
> finer novels of the last few years and 'Winter's Tale' is, of course, a
> classic.

"Winter's Tale" is indeed a classic, but to be perfectly honest I found "Memoirs" to be
a somewhat tepid revisitation of the previous and exceptionally beautiful "A Soldier of
the Great War."  Still, Helprin is one of the very few writers whose new books I look
forward to passionately.  I remember the day I returned to the U.S. from my Bahamian
honeymoon and found "Memoir" on the new releases shelf.  And I still always check under
"H" every time I hit a bookstore.  Which makes me wonder: in the world of music we have
such publications as ICE Magazine to tell us approximately when new CDs are due to
arrive in stores.  Does anyone know of such a source in the world of book publishing?

> You're evincing dangerously good taste for a Yes fan, Steve.

You're way behind, Brian... I got over that icky Yes phase months ago and have sold all
but four of the twelve or thirteen discs I bought during that particular phase.  Of
course, to some folks I suppose keeping four albums does consitute fandom of a sort...
;-)

Anyway, another relatively recent favorite book is Jeff Noon's "Vurt," which I thought
was one of the best new SF concept novels since "Neuromancer."  I was, admittedly, less
taken with "Pollen" and "Automated Alice."  And in general I am not an SF reader, so
it's quite likely that there are any number of fine things in that field that I've
missed.

More geek talk, but hey...
Steve Smith
[e-mail]


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Neubauten rec
Date: 28 Sep 1998 00:07:42 -0400

Tom Pratt wrote:

> What would you all recommend as the best Einsturzende Neubauten???

IMHO, "Halber Mensch."

F=FCtter mein ego,
Steve Smith
[e-mail]


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: SUGAR in their vitamins? <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Neubauten rec
Date: 27 Sep 1998 21:14:22 -0700 (PDT)

On Mon, 28 Sep 1998, Steve Smith wrote:

> > What would you all recommend as the best Einsturzende Neubauten???
>
> IMHO, "Halber Mensch."

seconded.

hasta.

Yes.  Beautiful, wonderful nature.  Hear it sing to us: *snap*  Yes.  natURE.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Recent Reading, was Re[2]: collecting music
Date: 28 Sep 1998 00:16:39 EDT


In a message dated 9/28/98 12:03:53 AM, [e-mail] wrote:

<<Anyway, another relatively recent favorite book is Jeff Noon's "Vurt," which
I thought
was one of the best new SF concept novels since "Neuromancer."  I was,
admittedly, less
taken with "Pollen" and "Automated Alice."  And in general I am not an SF
reader, so
it's quite likely that there are any number of fine things in that field that
I've
missed.>>

I remember this one as being a bit too much like watered down Philip K. Dick,
but somewhat enjoyable and a quick read.

The two books I've found most enjoyable this year are Richard Price's
"Freedomland" and Haruki Murakami's "The Wind-Up Bird Chronicle". Freedomland
is comparable to Clockers, but even better done, and The Wind-Up Bird
Chronicle, while it might not be Murakami's best book, is his most ambitious
yet.

My two cents,
Jon

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Neubaten rec
Date: 28 Sep 1998 00:34:31 EDT

yeah, halber mensch (sp?) rules. that vidoetape completely altered my
"industrial" music frame of reference

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Recent Reading, was Re[2]: collecting music
Date: 28 Sep 1998 01:33:51 -0400

[e-mail] wrote:

> I remember ["Vurt"] as being a bit too much like watered down Philip K. Dick,
> but somewhat enjoyable and a quick read.

I must have found "Vurt" more enjoyable than you did, but your response does point
out one thing to me quite clearly... I need to read some Philip K. Dick in a
hurry.  Any pointers as to where to begin, and from thence to...?

Steve Smith
[e-mail]


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re:  Re: Recent Reading, was Re[2]: collecting music
Date: 28 Sep 1998 01:39:17 EDT


In a message dated 9/28/98 1:37:37, you wrote:

>I need to read some Philip K. Dick in a
>hurry.  Any pointers as to where to begin, and from thence to...?

my personal favorite is VALIS. its also a composition by tod machover. and of
course there is always DO ANDROIDS DREAM OF ELECTRIC SHEEP?...

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Philip K. Dick (was Re: Recent Reading)
Date: 28 Sep 1998 02:42:00 EDT


In a message dated 9/28/98 1:34:31 AM, [e-mail] wrote:

<<I need to read some Philip K. Dick in a hurry.  Any pointers as to where to
begin, and from thence to...?>>

I'd say that Mr. Dick's three full-fledged masterpieces are A Scanner Darkly,
Ubik, and The Three Stigmata of Palmer Eldritch, which I would suggest in that
order. A lot of people rave about Valis, but I would recommend holding off on
this one. Lawrence Sutin's bio of Dick, Divine Invasions, has a really good
"chronological survey and guide" in the back, with descriptions and numerical
ratings from 1-10 for all of Dick's books. I'd look to this for further
guidance if the first three blow you away.

Jon

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Gene Natalia <[e-mail]>
Subject: Dick
Date: 28 Sep 1998 00:22:29 -0700

As far as Philip K. Dick books go, I really enjoyed A Scanner Darkly, Flow
My Tears the Policeman Said, The Man In the High Castle,  and of course
Valis.  I find that Dick's books are quick, easy reads.  He tackles deep
subjects with a light style that belies the actual complexity it depicts.
Also, he has his characters fart randomly.  Everyone needs some Dick.
Incidentally, there is a 2 disc experimental hip hop compilation called
Valis II, put together by Bill Laswell, I think...

                        Ethan


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Charles Jacobus <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Who cares?
Date: 28 Sep 1998 09:24:54 -0400

There are others. We're just patiently holding our tongues. It is
frustrating.

Charles.

> -----Original Message-----
> From:    Gene Natalia [SMTP:[e-mail]]
> Sent:    Saturday, September 26, 1998 5:06 PM
> To:    [e-mail]
> Subject:    Who cares?
>
> Can we end this ridiculous thread where every geek on the list tells all
> the other geeks how he alphabetizes?  Here's how I file my cd's:  I put
> them where I can find them, which happens to be alphabetically.  It's a
> personal thing that varies from person to person.  I don't feel egocentric
> enough to detail to you all MY PERSONAL method of filing everything.  I
> have a hard time believing that you all find one another's methods of
> categorization so intriguing that we need dozens of posts about it.  I
> sure
> don't enjoy receiving 12 e-mails a day regarding where 2Live Crew goes in
> your collections.  I notice a trend on this list where many people feel
> COMPELLED to get their 2 cents in, regardless of whether they're just
> being
> redundant or irrelevant.  Can we shed these solipsistic tendencies?  I
> can't believe there aren't others who share my sentiments.  I apologize if
> I'm wrong, and everyone else enjoys a myriad of useless e-mails per day.
> I
> just hate sifting through all your posts every day to find the one or two
> worth reading.  If I'm wrong, let me know.  I do understand what it's like
> to find kindred spirits to discuss these sorts of thing with.  I know not
> many people have cd collections that number in the hundreds, but get over
> it.
>
>
> Ethan Danberry
>
>
> -

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Christian Heslop" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Recent Reading, was Re[2]: collecting music
Date: 28 Sep 1998 06:46:36 -0700

I think John's recommendations of "A Scanner Darkly", "Ubik", and "The
Three Stigmata of Palmer Eldritch" should do nicely. I think one often
overlooked is "A Maze of Death".It's subject matter is particularly
relevant today, and it isn't often you get to meet a character named Ignatz
Thug. Dick's ubiquitious theological theme is strong in "Maze". He poses a
very interesting archetypal pattern of deity that I think is frighteningly
accurate. If those archetypes were not inspired by something else, then
Dick may very well have managed to divide all earthly gods into three very
distinct and easily assigned categories. Suggesting a deep commonality in
humankind's disparate beliefs. Not just a conceptual resemblance, but a
resemblance that suggests common ancestry rather than common
projection.(I'm really sorry if that doesnt make much sense; it's 6:00 in
the morning).But Scanner and Ubik are both beautiful novels. Scanner in
particular is one that will never cease to haunt you. I have enjoyed all of
Dick's novels, but have never been particularly fond os his short
stories...on the whole.

----------
> From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
... I need to read some Philip K. Dick in a
> hurry.  Any pointers as to where to begin, and from thence to...?


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Caleb Deupree <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Recent Reading, was Re[2]: collecting music
Date: 28 Sep 1998 09:49:05 -0400

>>>>> "Steve" == Steve Smith <[e-mail]> writes:

    Steve> Anyway, another relatively recent favorite book is Jeff
    Steve> Noon's "Vurt," which I thought was one of the best new SF
    Steve> concept novels since "Neuromancer."  I was, admittedly,
    Steve> less taken with "Pollen" and "Automated Alice."  And in
    Steve> general I am not an SF reader, so it's quite likely that
    Steve> there are any number of fine things in that field that I've
    Steve> missed.

A somewhat recent SF novel (1995) that I thought was very well done is
Gun with Occasional Music by Jonathan Lethem, which combines a strange
PKDick future with Raymond Chandler.  And my vote on where to start
with PKDick is also Valis, but FWIW, Man in the High Castle was his
only Hugo winner.

---
Caleb T. Deupree
;; Opinions...  funny thing about opinions, they can change.

Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers.
(Pablo Picasso)


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Marc Downing <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Who cares?
Date: 28 Sep 1998 09:56:40 -0400

>> I don't feel egocentric
>> enough to detail to you all MY PERSONAL method of filing everything.

Yes you do.

>> Can we end this ridiculous thread where every geek on the list tells all
>> the other geeks how he alphabetizes?  Here's how I file my cd's:  I put
>> them where I can find them, which happens to be alphabetically.

See?  And don't call me a geek.



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Spirer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Recent Reading, was Re[2]: collecting music
Date: 28 Sep 1998 07:08:32 -0700

At 09:49 AM 9/28/98 -0400, Caleb Deupree wrote:

>A somewhat recent SF novel (1995) that I thought was very well done is
>Gun with Occasional Music by Jonathan Lethem, which combines a strange
>PKDick future with Raymond Chandler.

I sent email to Steve on this book, which I also thought quite good.  I am
wondering about his first book, _Amnesia Moon_.

Jeff
http://www.hyperreal.org/axiom

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Spirer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Dick
Date: 28 Sep 1998 07:12:17 -0700

At 12:22 AM 9/28/98 -0700, Gene Natalia wrote:

>Incidentally, there is a 2 disc experimental hip hop compilation called
>Valis II, put together by Bill Laswell, I think...

There was also a Valis I, briefly available on Subharmonic.

Jeff
Axiom/Material: http://www.hyperreal.org/axiom/
Photography: http://www.hyperreal.org/~jeffs/gallery.html


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Who cares?
Date: 28 Sep 1998 10:09:15 EDT

In a message dated 98-09-27 01:44:58 EDT, you write:

<<
 In a message dated 9/26/98 17:37:25, you wrote:

 >solipsistic

 this is gonna be my new word of the week. great music, great books, now great
 vocabulary words. this list has everything!

 -
  >>

I'm still salivating on every possible opportunity to use "from the horse's
mouth by proxy." Thanks loads for that one Steve! <G>

Dale.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: alissa bader <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Recent Reading, was Re[2]: collecting music
Date: 28 Sep 1998 10:15:46 -0400 (EDT)



It's been a while since I've read Phillip Dick.  But one of my personal
favorites is _The Man in the High Castle_.  I really like the way the
author switches history around--the whole parallel universe thing.  I also
like the Perky Pat/Connie Companion Doll dichotomy:  that was first talked
about in _The Galactic Pot-Healer_, right?  (again, it's been a while
since I've read his stuff, so I apologize in advance if I get the titles
wrong).

One thing to remember about Phillip Dick is he's more of an idealist than
a writer. His books don't, in general, come off as skillfully-written
novels.  This is probably because he wrote many of them very quickly,
little to no time for revisions, etc.  Not to say he's not worth reading
at all, on the contrary.  But his style can be a bit weak and confusing,
so you have to look past that.

--Alissa


On Mon, 28 Sep 1998, Christian Heslop wrote:

> I think John's recommendations of "A Scanner Darkly", "Ubik", and "The
> Three Stigmata of Palmer Eldritch" should do nicely. I think one often
> overlooked is "A Maze of Death".It's subject matter is particularly
> relevant today, and it isn't often you get to meet a character named Ignatz
> Thug. Dick's ubiquitious theological theme is strong in "Maze". He poses a
> very interesting archetypal pattern of deity that I think is frighteningly
> accurate. If those archetypes were not inspired by something else, then
> Dick may very well have managed to divide all earthly gods into three very
> distinct and easily assigned categories. Suggesting a deep commonality in
> humankind's disparate beliefs. Not just a conceptual resemblance, but a
> resemblance that suggests common ancestry rather than common
> projection.(I'm really sorry if that doesnt make much sense; it's 6:00 in
> the morning).But Scanner and Ubik are both beautiful novels. Scanner in
> particular is one that will never cease to haunt you. I have enjoyed all of
> Dick's novels, but have never been particularly fond os his short
> stories...on the whole.
>
> ----------
> > From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
> ... I need to read some Philip K. Dick in a
> > hurry.  Any pointers as to where to begin, and from thence to...?
>
>
> -
>
>


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re[2]: Recent Reading, was Re[2]: collecting music
Date: 28 Sep 1998 09:33:32 -0500




     Steve Smith wrote:

>Anyway, another relatively recent favorite book is Jeff Noon's "Vurt," which I
>thought was one of the best new SF concept novels since "Neuromancer."  I was,
>admittedly,less taken with "Pollen" and "Automated Alice."  And in general I am
>not an SF reader so it's quite likely that there are any number of fine things
>in that field that I've missed.

     I always _want_ to like new SF much more than I end up actually
     enjoying 99% of the things that come by (it has to be one of the most
     watered-down literary genres around), but among those current writers
     whose works I do enjoy with some regularity are:

                Lucius Shepard
                Gene Wolfe
                Howard Waldrop

     Jeez, there must be others, but many are hit and miss. Blaylock, Nancy
     Kress (the novella version of 'Beggars in Spain' was wonderful),
     Saberhagen.

     Actually, easily the best SF novel I've read in years (though, AFAIK,
     it garnered virtually no recognition in the SF field), was John
     Updike's 'Toward the End of Time'. If your average SF writer had one
     tenth of Updike's writing ability, the field would be in far healthier
     shape.

     Brian Olewnick
     (NP: E. Sharp's 'Tocsin'
      NR: 'Ulysses')



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "hijk" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Solipsistic
Date: 28 Sep 1998 10:49:28 -0400

Solipsistic

Incidentally, the title of the new Henry Rollins book.

JK


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Matthew Colonnese)
Subject: Re: Recent Reading, was Re[2]: collecting music
Date: 28 Sep 1998 12:12:03 -0400

>At 09:49 AM 9/28/98 -0400, Caleb Deupree wrote:
>
>>A somewhat recent SF novel (1995) that I thought was very well done is
>>Gun with Occasional Music by Jonathan Lethem, which combines a strange
>>PKDick future with Raymond Chandler.
>
>I sent email to Steve on this book, which I also thought quite good.  I am
>wondering about his first book, _Amnesia Moon_.
>
>Jeff
>http://www.hyperreal.org/axiom
>
>-


_Amnesia Moon_ I took as almost an homage to ole pkd, but a quite good one
which benefits from a more consistent and plotted approach than most of the
early pkd.  However, it thereby suffers in loss of energy and general
mystery.  It's a good meditation on loss and nostalgia that resolutely
refuses to explain itself too literally--which I see as of paramount
imporatance in this genre and something which pkd often fell victim to.  Go
read pkd first (my votes _do androids dream..._, _valis_, _three
stigmata..._, _ubik_) and then this.

Jon mentioned Murakami, who definately is also plumbing the post pkd
universe.  I haven't read his recent one's cause they haven't been
remaindered yet, but _Wild Sheep Chase_ a fun romp and highly recomended
and _Hard Boiled Wonderland..._ is simply profoundly strange though kinda
left me cold in the end.

One of the best current sf new new wave I've read is Jack Womack's
_Elvissy_, an abominatably sad sad novel about horrific alternate
realities, one of which tries to steal the other's Elvis to use his
deityhood to sell product.  All told in frustrating future speak that
verbifies every adjective.  This book contains many many sad, horrific,
just errie scenes so that the slightest human kindness shown toward the end
becomes a magnificent jesture.  If the obvious 'avant-pop' sensibility of
the plot turns you off, don't be detered:  real human feeling herin.

I thought _vurt_ was great romp, although it's pkd does punk was quite
obvious, it was all in good fun.  I read this right after Ian Bank's
_walking on glass_ (good _gormengast_ references and general mystery feel,
but 'suprise shocker end a real snooze):  what is it with Brit authors and
sex with one's sister?

I have to second the high recomendation for William T. Vollman--read him
before he self destructs on the 2000page violence meditation--or at least
his brilliant half; often unparsable from the self indulgent half.
_Rainbow Stories_ still remains the best introduction to his many facets
(good and bad).  _Rifles_ was the most radical insertion of history into
his life or his life into history that has been hinted at throughout his
Seven Dreams project, and as as a slim volume it's good shot of that stuff
(_iceshirt_ and _father and crows_ are great also).  Everything else has
it's ups and downs.

ok, shutting up now..,

Any body have recomendations for Don Webb or Steve Erickson?

matt


------
"Finally, a thing-a-ma-giggy that would bring people together...even if it
kept them apart, spatially."



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Joseph S. Zitt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Recent Reading, was Re[2]: collecting music
Date: 28 Sep 1998 11:32:30 -0500 (CDT)

My fave Phillip K Dick books haven't come up on the list yet, to my
surprise: The Divine Invasion, The Transmigration of Timothy Archer, and
Radio Free Albemuth. But I'd also strongly recommend A Scanner Darkly and
many others.

Not a great writer stylistically, but his ideas were top-notch and often
hilarious. For a good homage to PKD, read Michael Bishop's "The Secret
Ascension".

(It's been a while since I've read PKD -- been mostly reading Spinrad,
Ellison, and Delany (and I keep telling myself that one of these years,
I'll get back to writing my opera of Dhalgren).)

- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Sean Terwilliger <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Recent Reading, was Re[2]: collecting music
Date: 28 Sep 1998 12:50:14 -0400

At 09:33 AM 9/28/98 -0500, [e-mail] wrote:
>
>                Lucius Shepard
>                Gene Wolfe
>                Howard Waldrop
>
>     Jeez, there must be others, but many are hit and miss. Blaylock, Nancy
>     Kress (the novella version of 'Beggars in Spain' was wonderful),
>

I really must urge you to check out Tim Powers if you haven't already.
Wonderfully intricate, loopy plots. Try _Last Call_, _Anubis Gates_ or _The
Stress of her Regard_.

-Sean

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re[2]: Recent Reading, was Re[2]: collecting music
Date: 28 Sep 1998 12:47:26 -0500




Joseph Zitt wrote:

>It's been a while since I've read PKD -- been mostly reading Spinrad,
>Ellison, and Delany (and I keep telling myself that one of these years,
>I'll get back to writing my opera of Dhalgren).)

     Ah! There's the obvious one I left out of my previous brief list:
     Delaney. "Stars in My Pocket Like Grains of Sand" is a wonderful,
     dense, SF meditation on all things Delaney, but outside of the
     strictly SF genre, I'd highly recommend his autobiography, "The Motion
     of Light on Water" as well as his utterly strange, stomach-turning
     (for me, anyway, who's never considered, um, the gastronomical values
     of the, how should I say this? the genital equivalent of toe jam),
     obsessive and compelling "Mad Man". As a writer very much in vogue
     among the literary elite (possibly the only black, gay, leftist in the
     genre), it amused me how little (if ANY) coverage 'Mad Man' received
     when it was published. It was as if the attitude was, "We like having
     you fill your little niche, Samuel, but really! you've gone too, too
     far here!" I haven't read his 'Hogg' yet, which apparently travels
     down similar roadways (though written much earlier, it remained
     "unpublishable" until recently). I've been meaning to reread
     'Dhalgren' one of these days though; curious how it holds up.

     Brian Olewnick




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Joseph S. Zitt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Recent Reading, was Re[2]: collecting music
Date: 28 Sep 1998 13:02:20 -0500 (CDT)

On Mon, 28 Sep 1998 [e-mail] wrote:

>      Ah! There's the obvious one I left out of my previous brief list:
>      Delaney. "Stars in My Pocket Like Grains of Sand" is a wonderful,
>      dense, SF meditation on all things Delaney,

Yeah! That's a wonderful book. I wish he'd get around to releasing the
second half of the diptych -- a few pages of it surfaced in a small zine a
few years back, but he's been off on other tangents (like the Neveryon
series, which, while interesting, are denser than neutrinos).

> As a writer very much in vogue
>      among the literary elite (possibly the only black, gay, leftist in the
>      genre), it amused me how little (if ANY) coverage 'Mad Man' received
>      when it was published. It was as if the attitude was, "We like having
>      you fill your little niche, Samuel, but really! you've gone too, too
>      far here!"

Er, yeah. I ran across Mad Man in a used book store, and was surprised
that I hadn't heard about it... until I read it. Probably not the best
book to read during lunch. (I could imagine Naked City doing a soundtrack,
though...)

> I haven't read his 'Hogg' yet, which apparently travels
>      down similar roadways (though written much earlier, it remained
>      "unpublishable" until recently). I've been meaning to reread
>      'Dhalgren' one of these days though; curious how it holds up.

For me, it still works. But then, it's a favorite -- I think I've given
more people copies of it than any other book with the possible exception
of "The Elements of Style".

- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Martin Wisckol)
Subject: saxello
Date: 28 Sep 1998 11:03:22 -0700

I've been listening to the new World Sax CD, "Selim Sivad,'' (very
pleasant -- they finally have a seamless relationship with the African
drummers). The new sax guy -- the fourth since Hemphill left -- is John
Purcell (concidence that Jack Dejohnette plays piano on two cuts --
those two arranged by his former sideman?)

Anyway, my question is this: Purcell is listed as playing saxello. What
is a saxello? It sounds like there's a soprano sax in the mix so I
suspect it has something of the range and tone of a soprano, but I'd
like to know more about it.

I think the manzello and stritch are straight versions of the  tenor
and alto (or is it alto and tenor?). But the saxello?

Re: Shorter's "Orgasm'' -- $100 for vinyl? I found a near perfect vinyl
copy a few years ago for $1.99, which I would gladly give up for $50
(then buy the CD). Unfortunately, it's in a Steve Martin (the comedian)
jacket. (Martin has a fake nose and balloon on his head). But I'm glad
I'm not the guy who pulled out his "Orgasm" cover to find Martin
inside....



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Craig Rath <[e-mail]>
Subject: Hypocrisy?
Date: 28 Sep 1998 13:17:01 -0500

Is anyone else here amused by the fact that Gene Natalia (Ethan?) ranted at
length about how much he hated all the off-topic discussion about
arrangement of collections, and yet here he is contributing to an even more
off-topic discussion about Science Fiction?  At least with the collection
arrangement there was a connection (albeit somewhat tenuous) to Zorn's
music.  The only direct musical connection I know to Philip K. Dick is
through Gary Numan.

Personally I couldn't care less what topic people want to discuss.  I have
a delete key and I know how to use it.



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Bob Kowalski <[e-mail]>
Subject: re 'who cares/patiently awaiting'
Date: 28 Sep 1998 14:25:23 -0400

Haven't read 99 % of this thread thanks to digest format of zorn list
offered.  With other listservs a digest format cuts messages to a crawl.
For the Zorn listserv I am in serious need of digest version of the digest
list...  On the other hand, the fans' imitation of the composer's voluminous
output of material is amusing I suppose.

happy listening

Bob

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Joseph S. Zitt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Hypocrisy?
Date: 28 Sep 1998 13:29:04 -0500 (CDT)

On Mon, 28 Sep 1998, Craig Rath wrote:

> Is anyone else here amused by the fact that Gene Natalia (Ethan?) ranted at
> length about how much he hated all the off-topic discussion about
> arrangement of collections, and yet here he is contributing to an even more
> off-topic discussion about Science Fiction?  At least with the collection
> arrangement there was a connection (albeit somewhat tenuous) to Zorn's
> music.  The only direct musical connection I know to Philip K. Dick is
> through Gary Numan.

So now we're stumbling through the minefields where the gripes of Rath are
stored?-)

There are actually several more interesting connections to PKDick. The
Mabou Mines performance group, for whom Zorn composed "The Bribe", did a
fascinating theatrical production of his "Flow My Tears, The Policeman
Said" (though I don't recall who did the music for it). As others have
noted, Bill Laswell has named several CDs after his works. Tod Machover
did an opera of his "Valis".

FWIW, I tend to shelves his books according to how closely the titles
sound like the syllable "STOMP".

- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Chris Barrett" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re[2]: Recent Reading: Phil Dick
Date: 28 Sep 1998 14:36:36 -0400

As long as we're on the Philip K. Dick thread, I wonder if anyone has read
any of his non-Sci-Fi output.  I have one short novel called "Mary and the
Giant" which is about a man in the 1950's who moves to either the south
west or the Southern Californian desert in the '50s (I can't remember
where, it's been a while since I read it) to open his lifelong dream of a
record store for collectors.  It kind of reminds me of a poorman's
Steinbeck, but not quite as bleak.

It also has one of my favorite Dick quotes, "Anyone can love music.  It's
what not to like you have to learn," or something to that effect.  (I know,
I know, for one of my favorite quotes you'd think I could remember it
exactly).

Does anybody know of any other non-Sci-Fi works?

-Chris

PS  2 of hsi sci-fi works that I thought were pretty good but didn't see
mentioned were "The World Jones Made" and "Now Wait For Last Year"



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "M. Lewis" <[e-mail]>
Subject: valis I for sale
Date: 28 Sep 1998 13:21:33 -0600

>At 12:22 AM 9/28/98 -0700, Gene Natalia wrote:

>>Incidentally, there is a 2 disc experimental hip hop compilation called
>>Valis II, put together by Bill Laswell, I think...

>There was also a Valis I, briefly available on Subharmonic.

i have "valis I" for sale if anyone is interested
-louie

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Gene Natalia <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Hypocrisy?
Date: 28 Sep 1998 13:30:58 -0700

At 01:17 PM 9/28/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Is anyone else here amused by the fact that Gene Natalia (Ethan?) ranted at
>length about how much he hated all the off-topic discussion about
>arrangement of collections, and yet here he is contributing to an even more
>off-topic discussion about Science Fiction?  At least with the collection
>arrangement there was a connection (albeit somewhat tenuous) to Zorn's
>music.  The only direct musical connection I know to Philip K. Dick is
>through Gary Numan.
>
>Personally I couldn't care less what topic people want to discuss.  I have
>a delete key and I know how to use it.
>
Obviously, you were unable to understand my post.  I never mentioned
anything about "off-topic."
My lengthy rant was about redundancy and the seeming need that many people
have to say something just to say something, regardless of whether that
something has worth to any but themselves.  And I did TRY to tie the
Dick/SF thread back into "relevancy" of the list by mentioning the Valis II
compilation.  Maybe you should read more carefully, before you attack
someone directly.  I think we all know how to use a delete key, but thanks
for reminding us all about it, pal.

                                    Ethan


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Tosh)
Subject: Evguenie Sokolov by Serge Gainsbourg
Date: 28 Sep 1998 14:26:50 -0700 (PDT)

Dear Zorn people,

This is the first title of my publishing venture.  It maybe some interest
to list members.  For those who are not interested - forgive me for sending
it out on the list!


Evguenie Sokolov  by Serge Gainsbourg (1928-1991)
ISBN  0-9662346-1-8     Library of Congress Catalog Card Number: 97-80957
Translated from the  French by John and Doreen Weightman

        This is the one and only novel by the 20th century provocateur of
French pop music and film  - the legendary Serge Gainsbourg .   This
prototype lusty punk tore into the threads of French society with his
numerous films, music projects, and outlandish persona.   He made
recordings with Brigitte Bardot, Jane Birkin  and a scandalous recording of
"Lemon Incest" with his own daughter Charlotte.   If that wasn't bad
enough, he told Whitney Houston  live on French TV that he would love  'to
fuck' her.

        Evguenie Sokolov  is a novel about an artist who uses his
intestinal gases as the medium for his scandalous artwork.  What once was a
huge smelly and noisy problem in his social and sex life becomes a tool for
success in the early eighties art world.   Please note that there is also a
song by Gainsbourg called Evguenie Sokolov  of farting noises over a reggae
track.

Some quotes about Gainsbourg and the novel:



"Gainsbourg is both the best and the worst, yin and yang, white and black.
This Jewish little Prince from Russia whose dreams were probably fueled by
Andersen, Perrault and Grimm, became, when confronted by the tragic reality
of life, a moving or repugnant Quasimodo, depending on his and your state
of mind.  Hidden deep within this fragile, shy and aggressive man lies the
soul of a poet craving tenderness, truth and integrity."   Brigitte Bardot

"Serge Gainsbourg is one of the world's great eccentrics.  His kinky
obsessions, smothering fashion with tastelessness have catapulted him into
super stardom in France.

This is his only novel and you have never read anything like it  Evgueine
Sokolov will make you squirm.  It will make you laugh.  It also may very
well make you sick.  Gainsbourg's vision is his own: authentic and
convulsive.  But don't forget to hold your nose."   John Zorn

Gainsbourg takes one childish, cheap and tasteless one-joke idea and
manages to keep it entertaining enough to last for a whole book. he has an
envious command of adjectives and adverbs." Mark Webber, Pulp

For those who are interested, this book can be special ordered thru Amazon
and Barnes & Noble website as well as thru your local independent
bookstore.

Thanks,

-----------------
Tosh Berman
TamTam Books
----------------



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re:  Re: Hypocrisy?
Date: 28 Sep 1998 17:59:16 EDT

allthough i must admit i was disapointed that "who cares" was not from the
notorious nightclub crawler and sometime calvin klien model who also goes by
Gene Natalia (or the simular Jenny Talia), i agree with ehan that the bulk of
this list is crap. no conversation about music or aesthitics other than high
school lunch room drivel about "gee did you get the new album? it's great."
the biggest debate has boiled down to the same old "i'm cooler than you" shite
common to lockerooms.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Hypocrisy?
Date: 28 Sep 1998 18:54:44 EDT

In a message dated 98-09-28 18:05:37 EDT,  [e-mail] writes:

<< i agree with ehan that the bulk of
 this list is crap >>

While being just this side of a hearty "fuck you," may I suggest, if you don't
like it here, get your own list.

Dale.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Hypocrisy?
Date: 28 Sep 1998 16:05:41 -0700


On Mon, 28 Sep 1998 17:59:16 EDT  [e-mail] wrote:
>
> allthough i must admit i was disapointed that "who cares" was not from the
> notorious nightclub crawler and sometime calvin klien model who also goes by
> Gene Natalia (or the simular Jenny Talia), i agree with ehan that the bulk of
> this list is crap. no conversation about music or aesthitics other than high
> school lunch room drivel about "gee did you get the new album? it's great."
> the biggest debate has boiled down to the same old "i'm cooler than you" shite
> common to lockerooms.

You are absolutely right: if all the smart persons that lurk on the list were
expressing their great opinions and deep insights, yes, the list would be
better.

Unfortunately, they seem to have a hard time to leave the "consummer seat" and,
in the rare occasions during which they reveal their existence, they do not
seem to be able to do more than complaining...

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Martin Wisckol)
Subject: Off topic
Date: 28 Sep 1998 16:33:00 -0700

Just finished the last digest. Not a single mention of music! (Let
alone Zorn.) Wonder what the newcomer might think. Call it initiation
into the Zornlist, where anything goes -- and where we aren't such
geeks that we only talk about abstract music. :-)

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Kevin Neales <[e-mail]>
Subject: Actual Post Regarding Zorn
Date: 28 Sep 1998 19:48:56 -0400

I just got back from a weekend in New York.  I was lucky enough to see 3
sets of Masada at Tonic and Marc Ribot at the Knitting Factory.  Not to
get anyone's hopes up, but on the last night of Masada there was a
professional video crew there filming and recording the show.  I have no
idea where or if this footage will show up.

Also, I know this was covered before, but when I was in New York I
bought a copy of the special edition box Praxis-Metatron.  How rare is
this.  This is the first time that I had actually seen one for sale.


                                                   Later,
                                                      Kevin N.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Circle9 <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Lethem, Powers, Delaney
Date: 28 Sep 1998 20:09:20 -0400

I read Delaney's "Hogg" about a year ago- I thought it started very strongly, and
Hogg's monolgue where he introduces himself is downright hilarious, but as it
progressed I felt it all start to read the same- one violent sex scene after
another. Like trashy "erotica", only alot more violence. It's shock value died
very quickly. Every sexual "encounter" was pretty much the same.

Tim Powers I like a great deal- his "Expiration Date really knocked my socks off.
Also, I'm glad to see Jonathan Lethem's name pop up. I read "As She Climbed
Across the Table" a couple of months back and thought it was phenom. It's kind of
a love triangle between a man, a woman, and a black hole. Really neat, and
definately a strong PKD influence- though I get the impression JL is abit more of
a romantic, and not quite as batty. Of course I mean "batty" as the highest
possible compliment...

    -S


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Corey Marc Fogel <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Hypocrisy?
Date: 28 Sep 1998 17:18:08 -0700 (MST)



On Mon, 28 Sep 1998, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:

> You are absolutely right: if all the smart persons that lurk on the list were
> expressing their great opinions and deep insights, yes, the list would be
> better.
>
> Unfortunately, they seem to have a hard time to leave the "consummer seat" and,
> in the rare occasions during which they reveal their existence, they do not
> seem to be able to do more than complaining...

That may be due to the fact that most of this list, or the most frequent
speakers, enjoy comparing methods of organizing CDs or other ridiculous
nonsense. Eventually you get this feeling of "why bother?"
While often times relatively worthwhile discussions are started from an
intelligent post, more often it seems that people ignore anything insightful
and truly expressive, like what usually comes from Gene Natalia, few and far
between as it may be.Ever notice how the most intelligent posts are the more
rare? like from Stephen Drury or David Slusser, or Rich Williams or Brian
Olewnick. There happen to be more frequent worthwhile posts from say...Steve
Smith or Jeff Spirer, because they're just (seemingly) nice and seem to be
trying to provide as much info as possible. Then there are people who have
free passes that say you don't have to post anything insightful or intelligent
as long as your posts are either quotes from your discography, or really
obnoxious retorts that are justified with a ":-)" at the end, to make them
seem cute.



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Benito Vergara" <[e-mail]>
Subject: masada question
Date: 28 Sep 1998 17:17:48 -0700

All right, an actual Zorn question (not that I minded the OT posts at all):

Masada is coming to San Francisco in November, and I am told that he uses a
"West Coast version" of the band -- but what does this mean? Say, Joey Baron
(no!) won't be there, for instance?

Later,
Ben

http://www.bigfoot.com/~bvergara/
ICQ# 12832406


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Gene Natalia <[e-mail]>
Subject: If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.
Date: 28 Sep 1998 17:25:14 -0700

Okay, I give up.
MY cd collection numbers just over 900, and I have a 1000 disc cd shelf.  I
keep them all in alphabetical order, arranged in chronological order within
each artist, the most recent album being to the leftmost.  Any singles get
put to the right of the albums proper, also within chronological order.
Any live albums or greatest hits type things get put to the left of the
albums proper.  As for box sets, if the cd's can be removed from the box so
as to be filed with the other cd's, then I do so, leaving the husks at the
bottom of my shelves with any boxes that do not cooperate with this system.
 As for cd's by multiple artists, I do something earth-shattering!  That's
right, I put the cd where I'm going to look for it when I want it.  So,
even though on the Death Ambient cd Kato Hideki's name comes first, I put
it under Ikue Mori, since that's where I'm more likely to look for it,
especially since I have no other Kato Hideki cd's, unless I were to count
the Dying Ground cd, which I have filed under Eyvind Kang.  I do file
pseudonyms separately, so Chaos AD doesn't get to sit next to Squarepusher,
but maybe I should rethink this system.  As a matter of fact, maybe I'll
change that right now!  In any case, next comes the cdr's which I don't
count as cd's at all.  These go in their own little bastard subsection, in
no order at all.  The exception to this is the cdr which has been given
some sort of significant packaging, allowing it to disguise its bastard
nature and blend in with the other cd's.  There are only two of these
elevated bastards in my collection, but this number will likely grow in the
future.  Little bootleg tapes go in a jumble on the bottom shelf, and my
small stack of vinyl goes at the base of my bookshelf, in alphabetical
order, with 7"s separated.

Now for the real fun!  I have a 200 disc changer, so my method of listening
to my cd's tends to take this into consideration.  In fact, I make 25 disc
blocks which can be but on random.  So, I have, for example, a 25 disc
block of Sun Ra/Sun City Girls/Graham Connah/Splatter
Trio/Pigpen/Residents.  Or, I have another block with all 10 Masada discs
in it, plus the Bar Kokhba stuff, plus random other Jewish stuff.  I call
it my Great Big Radical Jew Block.  I have another block with Autechre,
Matmos, Bannlust, Farmers Manual, etc in it.  Sometimes it's hard to tell
exactly what disc is playing, so I keep the list of 200 on an Excel file so
I can refer to it when I need to figure out what's playing.  I also have a
discman patched into my auxilary line for listeing to indivual cd's, which
is essential for some cd's that are meant to be listened to in their
entirety as a single piece.  For those interested, I but my 200
disc-changer on bottom, with my receiver on top of that, my dual tape deck
on top of that, and my turntable on the very top.
I hope those of you who have not used your delete button yet are
snickering.  Don't be upset.  I'm a geek too, as well as a bit of an
asshole.  Although this post is all true, there is an element of satire.  I
hope you can cope with that.  I apologize to any who find me offensive, but
if you make judicious use of your delete button, you need never read
another post from me again!  And don't forget, I love you all.

                            Ethan "Geek" Danberry


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Corey Marc Fogel <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: masada question
Date: 28 Sep 1998 17:33:07 -0700 (MST)



On Mon, 28 Sep 1998, Benito Vergara wrote:

> All right, an actual Zorn question (not that I minded the OT posts at all):
>
> Masada is coming to San Francisco in November, and I am told that he uses a
> "West Coast version" of the band -- but what does this mean? Say, Joey Baron
> (no!) won't be there, for instance?


it means Ben Goldberg. Trevor Dunn. Kenny Wolleson, John Schott, Scott
Amendola, etc.. or any combination thereof. However..Tzadik news makes it seem
as though its the normal lineup for once.. on November 8th.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Gene Natalia <[e-mail]>
Subject: Special Bonus Post!
Date: 28 Sep 1998 17:38:01 -0700

In light of my recent gripes and bitchings, I figured it would be sinful
not to actually contribute something to the list that is informative and
relevant, so here is a review of John Zorn's Xu Feng in San Francisco on
Sept 16th that I typed up for my record store's newspaper.  It was aimed =
at
people less familiar with Zorn than yourselves, so keep that in mind.

                            -Ethan

        Slyboots Reviews John Zorn's Xu Feng and Other Accompanying Treats

    Every other month or so, John Zorn treats the Bay Area to a show or two.
This time around it was a pair of shows at Slim=92s:  one with Mike Patto=
n
and David Lombardo, the other billed only as "Xu Feng."  The most enjoyab=
le
night was the second one, so that=92s what you=92re going to hear about. =
 There
were two other acts before Xu Feng which were an unexpected bonus.  The
first act was Mike Patton=92s Phono Sanjo, which consisted of the adroit
William Winant on percussion, a DJ(whose name I missed) on turntables, an=
d
Mike Patton, voice and sample triggering.  It was a bizarre commingling o=
f
Korean percussion, Portuguese lyrics and hip hop.  Patton sang all the
lyrics in Portuguese and of course contributed other sounds which he coax=
ed
from his mouth.  Winant impressively pounded out rhythms with his
tongue-lolling finesse.  These pieces were intriguing and different, just
the sort of thing to awaken the listener=92s appetite for the music to fo=
llow.
Next came Mike Patton=92s Feedback Etudes.  Before this extravaganza bega=
n,
the people at Slim=92s had to make sure that everyone up front had ear-pl=
ugs
that wanted them.  They said that ear plugs were highly recommended.  Wit=
h
a huge wall of amps looming ominously over me, I gladly wedged the squish=
y
little beige bastards into my ears.  Even with the ear plugs in, I was
still uncomfortable, with the vibrations sending my guts churning.  Patto=
n
was hardly visible at all, barricaded within his little amp fortress.  He
came out briefly to shake some of the microphones which dangled across ea=
ch
amp in pairs.  Overall, I was unimpressed.  It was just a lot of humming
and feedback with shifting frequencies.  It was short enough not to be
boring, but it wasn=92t anything to get excited over.  It was more a nove=
lty
performance than a worthwhile musical endeavor.  As far as novelty
performances go, though, it sure was neat, and it served to clear the
palette before Xu Feng began.
    Finally, John Zorn came out wearing his reddish orange T-shirt and
grotesquely gaudy fluorescent camouflage muscle pants, which for some
reason, he must always wear.  Initially it seemed to me that he wore the
same clothes at every show, even on consecutive nights, but my new theory
is that he has a legion of these garments in his closet, for they are
always clean.  In any case, the performers of Xu Feng were close behind
him, in more casual wear.  While the musicians prepared, Zorn shifted his
little cards around, arranging them in columns and rows.  It would be the=
se
cards that he would use to conduct Xu Feng, or perhaps arbitrate it.
    Xu Feng is a game piece that developed out of Zorn=92s Cobra.  It employ=
s
many of the same rules and cues.  In fact, many of the cards Zorn used to
communicate with the musicians were the very same ones used in Cobra.  Xu
Feng, however, uses sound modifiers such as "Sparse," and pairs of
instruments.  This installment of Xu Feng featured William Winant on
percussion and his counterpart, Dave Lombardo on drums.  Trey Spruance an=
d
John Schott faced off against one another on guitar.  The final pairing w=
as
David Slusser and Chris Brown.  Slusser possessed in his arsenal two
theremins and other assorted scientific instruments, his portion of the
stage seeming like a mad scientist=92s laboratory.  Brown, with his wild =
puff
of white hair, seemed just as mad with his unidentifiable, analog-seeming
keyboard contraption, which had a bizarre range of effects.
    Apparently Xu Feng was an actress in many Kung Fu movies and it is from
this that Zorn took the name.  It is an appropriate name, since strategy =
is
crucial and the game is fast paced, with action and reaction, much like a
Kung Fu battle.  Certainly there was an abundance of action.  To listen t=
o
Xu Feng, or for that matter Cobra, without really seeing it is to do it a=
n
injustice.  While often the music is intense and enjoyable in and of
itself, the truly marvelous experience is to observe how the music is mad=
e.
 To observe the subtle interactions between Zorn and the musicians and
between the musicians themselves is more than a little exciting.  In fact=
,
it=92s easy to get caught up in the "vibe" that is so obviously in existe=
nce
on stage.  Their is an exuberance that exudes from the players of this
music.  As they play their instruments as masters, they grin like childre=
n,
for indeed they are playing a game.  I found myself, actually rooting for
Dave Lombardo at times.  He=92s the former drummer of Slayer and he has o=
nly
recently been "inducted" into the avant-garde after joining Mike Patton=92=
s
Fantomas, so he was the underdog at the show.  He played amazingly, and i=
t
was obvious that he was excited to be involved.  Despite his still being =
a
bit limited, his drumming formed a solid core for the music to develop
around during the night.  As one person put it, he=92s like "Zorn=92s new=
 toy."
 Having such a powerhouse metal drummer certainly gave the group a new
sound to integrate.  Lombardo wasn=92t the only enthusiastic one, though.
The intensity extended to all the performers, with a seeming contest
between Winant and Schott for who could stick their tongue out the furthe=
st
in concentration, and Chris Brown flailing his feet like an overturned
insect while he played his keyboard.  I enjoyed the whole show, especiall=
y
the last piece which took a certain Secret Chiefs 3-like feel, as Trey us=
ed
SC3 guitar chords, and the others of the group followed suit.  The music
that night was certainly unique,  for every Cobra/Xu Feng show is its own
entity.  The next time this game rolls into town, make sure you check it =
out.



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Brian Olewnick <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Hypocrisy?
Date: 28 Sep 1998 20:50:24 -0400

Corey Marc Fogel wrote:
> That may be due to the fact that most of this list, or the most frequent
> speakers, enjoy comparing methods of organizing CDs or other ridiculous
> nonsense. Eventually you get this feeling of "why bother?"
> While often times relatively worthwhile discussions are started from an
> intelligent post, more often it seems that people ignore anything insightful
> and truly expressive, like what usually comes from Gene Natalia, few and far
> between as it may be.Ever notice how the most intelligent posts are the more
> rare? like from Stephen Drury or David Slusser, or Rich Williams or Brian
> Olewnick. There happen to be more frequent worthwhile posts from say...Steve
> Smith or Jeff Spirer, because they're just (seemingly) nice and seem to be
> trying to provide as much info as possible.

A few points, as this issue seems to have come to a wee bit of a boil.
I've been on this list for about a year and a half and find it a very
comfortable forum to air views to a group that, _roughly_ speaking, I'm
pretty sure shares a number of interests, musical and otherwise. I've
had the good fortune to meet two members of the list (that I know of;
one can never be too sure!) and both have proven to be as personally
enjoyable and open-minded as I would've expected. I operate under the
benign assumption that they're fairly representative of this list and
just as I wouldn't feel compelled to keep a discussion with them to
strictly musical grounds (though that would surely make up a large part)
or even deadly serious ones, I don't feel the compunction here, though I
certainly allow for the moderation from Mr. Rizzi as he sees fit. I've
never had the pleasure of sitting down for an evening with this list's
namesake, but I feel safe in imagining that the conversation would swing
from serious to silly (and, yes, geekish) several times during the
night's course (remember, we're talking about someone who based many of
his early compositions on ideas derived from military board games! You
want geekish?). Plenty of topics arise here that I haven't the slightest
interest in (I really don't care if Buckethead ever plays another note)
but, hey, I have friends interested in race car driving; that's the way
it goes. If anything, I feel sorry that a few very thoughtful posters
were put off enough by vitriol to, apparently, leave (or are you still
lurking, Mssrs Knox and Grella?) and would hate to see that happen
again.

Hope this makes some sense. I have a Cubs/Giants play-off to watch with
the sound off while playing Young's 'Just Stompin'. Bye-ya.

Brian Olewnick

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Christian Heslop" <[e-mail]>
Subject: reading and zorn show
Date: 28 Sep 1998 18:04:55 -0700

Anyone who subscribes to the Zorn list, we can presume, has alreay
discovered Zorn and probably doesn't need to be persuaded of his virtues. I
subscribed to the list so that I might get the chance to discuss things
with like-minded people. I assumed that the ability to appreciate noise
music would filter out close-minded people and establishment snobbery. I
hadn't counted on "scenesterism".I love Zorn's music, but I don't buy
posters and limited edition LP's, I don't follow rumors or go to every
show.I own maybe four Zorn albums.Noise music represents a certain
aesthetic ideal to me, the idea that to really create you have to shed
systems and snobbery, externalities and trends and simply make the sound
that you have to make in order to make it sound the way you want it to. I
think any aesthetic discussion outside of Zorn is off-topic, but so what?We
are like-minded people and we share one very odd characteristic-our
ear.Think of what it was like the first time you played a Zorn album for a
friend. Remember that the next time you feel like you want to insult
someone on this list.

I really remember enjoying a few short stories by PKD published under the
title "I Hope I Shall Arrive Soon". Apart from the story from which the
title came was one called "Rautavaara's Case" that was very interesting.Has
anyone here read anything by  Mark Leyner?

Just in case...I really liked Absinthe.

A friend of mine who saw one of the Zorn shows in SF really didnt enjoy
it.Mike Patton performed along with Zorn and it was my friend's opinion
that Patton, like many "noise" vocalists, seemed to believe that Yamatsuka
Eye (didn't he change his name?) had done everything that needed to be done
with the human voice.It was also his opinion that one should have some sort
of compositional talent before you attempt noise music.Sorry to impart this
third person account, but I really didn't have too much to say about Zorn.

Would anyone on this list care to discuss who among modern composers they
would recommend to an ever inquisitive musical taste?I've been meaning to
listen to some Conlon Nancarrow or something.What would anyone recommend of
Varese's outside of Ionisation, Ameriques, and LeCroix de Sud.Would anyone
like to discuss Messiaen?I know that these things aren't directly Zorn
related, but a strong connection can be made. I would really enjoy an
intelligent musical discussion. I wouldn't mind learning something new.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: David Egan <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: masada question
Date: 28 Sep 1998 18:04:34 -0700

Benito Vergara wrote:

> All right, an actual Zorn question (not that I minded the OT posts at
> all):
>
> Masada is coming to San Francisco in November, and I am told that he
> uses a
> "West Coast version" of the band -- but what does this mean? Say, Joey
>
> Baron
> (no!) won't be there, for instance?
>
>

Well, Masada is also coming to Seattle two days earlier, on the 6th.
According to the info at the Earshot web site, it'll be the usual
lineup.  Check it out at http://www.earshot.org/festival98/zorn.htm .  I
hope they have accurate info there!  By the way - if you're anywhere
near Seattle during late October or early November, check out the
Earshot Jazz featival!  Besides Masada, they have Lee Konitz with Eyvind
Kang & Wayne Horvitz on the bill (October 27th), and Rub=E9n Gonz=E1lez &
Ibrahim Ferrer on November 1st.

- Dave



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Gene Natalia <[e-mail]>
Subject: Messiaen
Date: 28 Sep 1998 18:07:06 -0700

I'd say Messiaen is very relevant to this list since Zorn has covered a
piece by Messiaen with Naked City on Grand Guignol.  I only have one
Messiaen disc, so I don't feel qualified to recommend anything by him
relative to other pieces by him, but I enjoy my Quatuor pur la Fin du
Temps(Quartet for the End of Time), which contains the piece that Zorn
covered.  Maybe someone could recommend some other Messiaen?


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Christian Heslop" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.
Date: 28 Sep 1998 18:24:52 -0700


I read your entire post without regretting it one tiny bit. I have 64 cd's,
which are made more or less accessible depending on what I am listening to
at the time.I usually listen to a cd until I have the entire thing
memorized note for note, then maybe I buy a new one. When I do, I put it
with the rest of them. I don't have the time to put them in any kind of
order.I frequently lose my favorites. I have bought Frank Zappa's "Hot
Rats" four times because it was the one cd with which I always attempted to
convert people. Of John Zorn's, I have the domestic Naked City
(warner-elektra?), Absinthe, Spillane, and Cobra:Live at the Knitting
Factory. That is the order in which I bought them.I have heard The Grand
Guignol, Black Box, Masada 1 and the Big Gundown. What do you think I
should get next? I went from Zappa to Bartok, Varese, Schoenberg and when
that was exhausted I bought a Fred Frith cd, which brought me to the
Boredoms and finally to John Zorn. I am quite new. There are quite
obviously all kinds of listeners on this post.
----------
> From: Gene Natalia <[e-mail]>
>
> MY cd collection numbers just over 900, and I have a 1000 disc cd shelf.
I
> keep them all in alphabetical order, arranged in chronological order
within
> each artist, the most recent album being to the leftmost.  Any singles
get
> put to the right of the albums proper, also within chronological order.
> Any live albums or greatest hits type things get put to the left of the
> albums proper.  As for box sets, if the cd's can be removed from the box
so
> as to be filed with the other cd's,......

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: finaly, an idea hit upon
Date: 28 Sep 1998 21:23:43 EDT

my new pal ethan wrote:
 While often the music is intense and enjoyable in and of itself, the truly
marvelous experience is to observe how the music is made. To observe the
subtle interactions between Zorn and the musicians and between the musicians
themselves is more than a little exciting.  In fact, it is easy to get caught
up in the "vibe" that is so obviously in existence on stage.  Their is an
exuberance that exudes from the players of this music.  As they play their
instruments as masters, they grin like children, for indeed they are playing a
game.
  certainly (in my opinion) seeing is integral to xu feng. i wouldn't have
considered myself more than curious the first time i saw zorn, but upon seeing
him perform xu feng i found myself (as well as my nonjazz listening companion)
a fan. i would have to call xu feng and cobra something along the lines of
process art, where by the music left after the process, in this case a madcap
game, is only a tiny part of the actuall art. it would seem that to hear it
alone is not to understand it. for people who take one listen to zorn, and
runn screaming "noise, noise," they are not to far off base in many instances.
makes you sad that zorn doesn't tour more

any thoughts?

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Brian Olewnick <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re" Modern Composers, was Re: reading and zorn show
Date: 28 Sep 1998 21:22:32 -0400

Christian Heslop wrote:
> Would anyone on this list care to discuss who among modern composers they
> would recommend to an ever inquisitive musical taste?I've been meaning to
> listen to some Conlon Nancarrow or something.What would anyone recommend of
> Varese's outside of Ionisation, Ameriques, and LeCroix de Sud.Would anyone
> like to discuss Messiaen?I know that these things aren't directly Zorn
> related, but a strong connection can be made. I would really enjoy an
> intelligent musical discussion. I wouldn't mind learning something new.

(nice post, xian)

To keep it brief, three modern composers I come back to again and again
and who have, seemingly, very little in common are Xenakis, Rzewski and
Feldman (oh, and of course Partch, but you have to draw that "modern"
line somewhere). Xenakis and Feldman, I suppose, do share a fascination
with different aspects of pure sound, so there's kind of a common point.
Rzewski just shows that great music can still be wrung out of the
Romantic tradition, and he's composed (and performed) some of the most
passionate music I've ever heard.

I must say, I've never gotten totally involved with Nancarrow's work. I
have the player piano series on 1750 Arch (have those been superceded by
better recordings?) and while I can admire the pure physicality of the
more torrential offerings, the _musical_ quality often strikes me as
stilted. If anyone can clue me in as to where I'm going wrong, please
do.

Brian Olewnick

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Alan Lankin <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Actual Post Regarding Zorn
Date: 28 Sep 1998 22:16:31 -0400

Always nice to see a post which mentions music...

Kevin Neales wrote:
>
> I just got back from a weekend in New York.  I was lucky enough to see 3
> sets of Masada at Tonic and Marc Ribot at the Knitting Factory.  Not to
> get anyone's hopes up, but on the last night of Masada there was a
> professional video crew there filming and recording the show.  I have no
> idea where or if this footage will show up.

A recent mailing from Downtown Music Gallery implies that there'll be a
series of live Masada albums coming up.  Any more info on this??

--
Alan Lankin
[e-mail]
http://home.att.net/~lankina

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Caleb T. Deupree" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: modern composition
Date: 29 Sep 1998 00:28:54 -0400

At 06:04 PM 9/28/98 -0700, Christian Heslop wrote:
>Just in case...I really liked Absinthe.

Yeah, me too.

>Would anyone on this list care to discuss who among modern composers they
>would recommend to an ever inquisitive musical taste?I've been meaning to
>listen to some Conlon Nancarrow or something.What would anyone recommend of
>Varese's outside of Ionisation, Ameriques, and LeCroix de Sud.Would anyone
>like to discuss Messiaen?I know that these things aren't directly Zorn
>related, but a strong connection can be made. I would really enjoy an
>intelligent musical discussion. I wouldn't mind learning something new.

I'll second the recommendations for Messaien.  In my youth I fancied myself
a pianist, and thus acquired many of his recordings for piano, both solo
and in groups.  Among my favorite pieces of his are the Quatre Etudes de
Rythme, which contains the historic piece Modes de Valeurs et Intensites,
one of the first attempts at what would become complete serialization.
It's a fascinating piece, as are the other three etudes in the set.  A
longer work is his Vingt Regards sur l'enfant Jesus, which also opens up to
his mysticism.  He was also fascinated with birdsong, and he wrote several
pieces which he claimed were pretty much direct transcriptions, albeit
transposed and otherwise modified.  These are collected in the set
Catalogue d'oiseaux.  His extended orchestral work From the Canyons to the
Stars is also worth hearing.  All in all, Messaien extended the language of
the piano considerably.  Recently I had my first opportunity to hear some
of his work for organ, which was also amazing, and not at all what I'd
expected -- peaceful, extended works which don't really sound like organ
music at all.

The range of composition is extensive.  Ligeti's work is becoming available
in a complete edition, and his orchestral and choral pieces (Lux Aeterna
was featured in Kubrick's 2001) are well worth hearing.  I'll also second
Xenakis, especially his electronic pieces, both the set on EMF and La
Legende d'Eer on Montaigne.  The late 20th century wouldn't be the same
without Stockhausen and Boulez -- check out Kontakte, Aus den Sieben Tagen
(From the Seven Days) or Stimmung by the former and the piano sonatas, Pli
Selon Pli, or the Rituel/Eclat Multiples set by the latter.  Most of
Stockhausen's great work is only available in expensive German editions,
but the three works mentioned should be relatively easy to find.  And I
can't forget John Cage, so many wonderful pieces for prepared piano
(Sonatas and Interludes) and various combinations (look for the Hat Hut New
York School collections or any of the excellent series on Mode).

The composers you mentioned are all early-mid 20th century.  More
contemporary, active in recent times, would be Parmegiani and Bayle (both
electroacousticians extraordinaire), Jonathan Harvey (look for Bhakti),
Toru Takemitsu (many wonderful works -- start with November Steps for
traditional Japanese instruments and orchestra or the Film Music set on
Nonesuch), Scelsi (very sparse and abstract, inspirational for JZ's quieter
works like Redbird), Rzewski (another second, especially his masterpiece,
The People United, another catalogue of extended piano techniques, but in a
relatively easy to comprehend structure and containing improvisation as
well as composition).

Good listening.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Who cares?
Date: 29 Sep 1998 00:54:56 -0400

Charles Jacobus wrote:

> Gene.

No, Steve.

> Let's be real here. Recommended readings and listenings is one
> thing. How everybody organizes their record collection is another.

Respectfully, no it isn't.  It's all just talk amongst folks with somewhat
similar tastes -- the point of subscribing to a mailing list, no?  Given that,
what difference does it truly make if someone is recommending specific
recordings or books, or simply relating the ways in which he or she organizes
his or her recordings, and, by extension, his or her life?

What I mean to say is, if I were hanging with anyone on this list at the local
watering hole (and I've been lucky enough to do so on several occasions), I most
certainly wouldn't get bent if we started talking about how we organized our
collections.  What difference does it truly make, therefore, if we do the same
online?  Is "bandwidth" honestly that scarce a resource?  If not, I repeat,
everyone's always got his or her delete button at hand, and no one's forcing
anyone to read anything at all...

My view of the Zornlist is that it is actually more than just a mailing list of
people who talk about a finite number of CDs, but rather that of a community
that exists here in "cyberspace" because it cannot exist in the real world,
geographically speaking.  Otherwise, we'd just form a club and build a
clubhouse, no?  Therefore, I respectfully submit, chatter about the order in
which we arrange our recordings is as germane as anything else.

Steve Smith
[e-mail]


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Who cares?
Date: 29 Sep 1998 00:59:36 -0400

[e-mail] wrote:

> I'm still salivating on every possible opportunity to use "from the horse's
> mouth by proxy." Thanks loads for that one Steve! <G>

Use it freely while you can, Dale...  I'm urging Bobby Previte to use it for the
title of his upcoming release by his band "The Horse..."    ;-)

Steve Smith
[e-mail]


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re:  reading and zorn show
Date: 29 Sep 1998 01:56:40 EDT


In a message dated 9/28/98 21:51:07, you wrote:

>I've been meaning to
>
>listen to some Conlon Nancarrow or something.

i mainly got into (like i'm his biggest fan) nancarrow because zappa mentioned
him a lot.  i have the Studies disc which is music for player piano and other
pieces performed by the Ensemble Modern. this is the same ensemble that
performed the pieces on zappa's Yellow Shark record. i have heard other works,
but since i don't own them i can't speak intelligently about them.

on a completely unrelated note:
i have read a few books by william gibson (neuromancer, the difference engine,
burning chrome, and virtual light) and was looking for the next one i should
get. i can only think of mona lisa overdrive, idoru, and count zero. did i
forget any? what's best?

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Adam MacGregor)
Subject: Philip K. Dick "Flow My Tears, The Policeman said..."
Date: 29 Sep 1998 02:39:32 -0400

Hey kids,

Kinda an irrelevant question (well, depending on how you look at it) but the
NJ grindcore band Discordance Axis has a tune called "Flow My Tears, The
Policeman
Said" on thier last LP "Jouhou."  I was wondering if anybody on the list
could provide me with any connection between the two (i.e. what the story is
about, or if anybody has even actually heard of d.a. in respect to that
subject matter.)

thanks,

Adam


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Stephane Vuilleumier" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Nancarrow (Re  Modern Composers, was Re: reading and zorn show)
Date: 29 Sep 1998 08:41:08 +0200

there is a Wergo 1988 rerecording I think.
Anything in Zorn that is Nancarrow related? ;-)

Stephane

-----Original Message-----
Cc: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>


:I must say, I've never gotten totally involved with Nancarrow's work. I
:have the player piano series on 1750 Arch (have those been superceded by
:better recordings?)


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Todd Bramy <[e-mail]>
Subject: Collecting Music
Date: 29 Sep 1998 01:06:43 -0700 (PDT)

My problem is with the "classical" stuff.

Do I file Kronos Quartet's CD of Gorecki's String Quartets with the Kronos
discs or the Gorecki discs?

-Todd



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Julian" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Collecting Music
Date: 29 Sep 1998 18:19:36 +1000

> My problem is with the "classical" stuff.
>
> Do I file Kronos Quartet's CD of Gorecki's String Quartets with the
Kronos
> discs or the Gorecki discs?

Put them wherever you're more likely to look for them. I've got some guy
playing Scriabin, but I've got no idea who, but then again if I had heaps
of Kronos, I'd like them together...


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Stephane Vuilleumier" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Collecting Music
Date: 29 Sep 1998 10:31:29 +0200

Why is a raven like a writing desk?
Because there is a b in both
(Lewis Carroll)
-----Original Message-----


:My problem is with the "classical" stuff.
:
:Do I file Kronos Quartet's CD of Gorecki's String Quartets with the Kronos
:discs or the Gorecki discs?
:
:-Todd
:



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "J.T. de Boer" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: modern composition
Date: 29 Sep 1998 10:38:42 +0200


> The range of composition is extensive.  Ligeti's work is becoming available
> in a complete edition,

Actually, they would be released this year on Sony Classical, but I
heard Ligeti and Pekka Salonen (the conductor of most of the pieces)
had a difference of opinion and Ligeti wanted the edition to be
cancelled. I have most of the released recordings and they are
fantastic. The only works that still have to be re-recorded and
released are the large orchestra-pieces (Lontano, San Fransisco
Polyphonie, Cello Concerto, Piano Concerto etc.), the electronic
pieces and the opera. But don't despair! I was in Cologne last
week to visit the Robert Rauschenberg exhibition (go there if you
can!!!) and found in a local cd-store two 3-cd boxes with the old
Ligeti recordings on Wergo. Get these if you can because they're
specially priced and they are a nice replacement for the time being.
In US$ I paid only $20 for one box!

Jeroen

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Chris Genzel)
Subject: complaining
Date: 29 Sep 1998 11:35:11 +0200


 I hereby wish to complain about the people on this list who are complaining
 about the people on this list who are complaining that too many people on this
 list are complaining.

 16 tons. A cat. No. 2: the larch.

 Kind regards,
 - Chris.

 ---------------------------------------------
 *    Chris Genzel --- [e-mail]    *
 * Homepage & Herbie Hancock discography at: *
 *    http://home.t-online.de/home/stamil/   *
 ---------------------------------------------


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re:  saxello
Date: 29 Sep 1998 08:24:06 EDT

[e-mail] (Martin Wisckol)
wrote:

>Anyway, my question is this: Purcell is listed as playing saxello. What
>is a saxello? It sounds like there's a soprano sax in the mix so I
>suspect it has something of the range and tone of a soprano, but I'd
>like to know more about it.
>
>I think the manzello and stritch are straight versions of the  tenor
>and alto (or is it alto and tenor?). But the saxello?

I would be happy to be corrected if wrong, but here is my understanding.
The sax family is a relatively new family of instruments, invented & developed
in the 1800's & not refined until the early part of the 1900's.

There are many "lost" instruments [weird key arrangements, etc.] from the
development of the instrument that you can sometimes run accross [most often
on the walls of music stores or horn repair shops on display] - some of them
are really quite twisted looking.

Anyway, before they came up with what is now considered the "standard" sax
family of soprano/alto/tenor/baritone, there were other instruments that, for
one reason or another, never caught on. You can play these instruments using
the same fingering & mouth chops as a "regular" sax, but their range is
different.

The C Melody is one such instrument.
The other [with a range between an alto & soprano sax] is another.

There are a few regular players of saxello; most famously [to me at least!]
Elton Dean has used one for basically all of his professional life, as a often
used "double" along with his alto work.

Steve F.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Bob Kowalski <[e-mail]>
Subject: masada 10 & songs, we know
Date: 29 Sep 1998 08:54:53 -0400

Has Masada 10 been available long?  Just saw it this past weekend.
Any good, or should I say does it come close to great Masada 9 ?  Bill
Frisell and Fred Hersch (piano) have released a great album on
Nonesuch - Songs, We Know.  Have only listened all the way through a
couple of times so far, but it sounds wonderful.  A definate
recommendation.

Bob



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Christian Heslop" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: reading and zorn show
Date: 29 Sep 1998 06:29:58 -0700

Count Zero...by far.

----------
> From: [e-mail]

> on a completely unrelated note:
> i have read a few books by william gibson (neuromancer, the difference
engine,
> burning chrome, and virtual light) and was looking for the next one i
should
> get. i can only think of mona lisa overdrive, idoru, and count zero. did
i
> forget any? what's best?

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Christian Heslop" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: complaining
Date: 29 Sep 1998 06:33:36 -0700


I object to your complaints. Something needs to be done about people like
you.


Chris Genzel wrote:
I hereby wish to complain about the people on this list who are complaining
about the people on this list who are complaining that too many people on
this
list are complaining.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Charles Jacobus <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: finaly, an idea hit upon
Date: 29 Sep 1998 09:43:57 -0400

In response to [e-mail]:

While I would agree that Zorn's (as with so many other artist's of
that generation) compositional methods are process-oriented and that
that method may be an integral part of making the sounds he makes,
I don't think that an appreciation of the method (or even a knowledge or
understanding of it, for those who haven't had the privilege of seeing
him perform) is required to appreciate the music. My introduction to Zorn
came first through recordings and only later through live performances.
With very little background on Zorn, I listened to the CDs I purchased
with excitement and appreciation and, it turns out, with a pretty good
idea of what was going on in the music or what was going on stage in,
say, Cobra: Live at the Knitting Factory.

Charles.

> -----Original Message-----
> From:    [e-mail] [SMTP:[e-mail]]
> Sent:    Monday, September 28, 1998 9:24 PM
> To:    [e-mail]
> Subject:    finaly, an idea hit upon
>
> my new pal ethan wrote:
>  While often the music is intense and enjoyable in and of itself, the
> truly
> marvelous experience is to observe how the music is made. To observe the
> subtle interactions between Zorn and the musicians and between the
> musicians
> themselves is more than a little exciting.  In fact, it is easy to get
> caught
> up in the "vibe" that is so obviously in existence on stage.  Their is an
> exuberance that exudes from the players of this music.  As they play their
> instruments as masters, they grin like children, for indeed they are
> playing a
> game.
>   certainly (in my opinion) seeing is integral to xu feng. i wouldn't have
> considered myself more than curious the first time i saw zorn, but upon
> seeing
> him perform xu feng i found myself (as well as my nonjazz listening
> companion)
> a fan. i would have to call xu feng and cobra something along the lines of
> process art, where by the music left after the process, in this case a
> madcap
> game, is only a tiny part of the actuall art. it would seem that to hear
> it
> alone is not to understand it. for people who take one listen to zorn, and
> runn screaming "noise, noise," they are not to far off base in many
> instances.
> makes you sad that zorn doesn't tour more
>
> any thoughts?
>
> -

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Marc Downing <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: modern composition
Date: 29 Sep 1998 10:02:30 -0400

>>Would anyone on this list care to discuss who among modern composers they
>>would recommend to an ever inquisitive musical taste?I've been meaning to
>>listen to some Conlon Nancarrow or something.What would anyone recommend of
>>Varese's outside of Ionisation, Ameriques, and LeCroix de Sud.Would anyone
>>like to discuss Messiaen?I know that these things aren't directly Zorn
>>related, but a strong connection can be made. I would really enjoy an
>>intelligent musical discussion. I wouldn't mind learning something new.

I'll recommend Arvo Part.  He writes choral music, strongly influenced by
chant and devoutly christian.  He is a composer who writes for music for
architecture, following the tradition of sacred choral music and the gothic
cathedral.  For me, some of his music achieves an almost impossible state
of combined serenity and panic, especially his "miserere" (which would be
the music I'd blast from the helicopters if I were in command of a
battalion of demons sent to destroy the earth). Playing one of his
recordings in a building can cause it to flex dangerously!

Marc



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Charles Jacobus <[e-mail]>
Subject: re: who cares?
Date: 29 Sep 1998 10:01:48 -0400


    Let's be real here. Recommended readings and listenings is one
    thing. How everybody organizes their record collection is another.

    Steve wrote:

    > Respectfully, no it isn't.  It's all just talk amongst folks with
somewhat
    > similar tastes -- the point of subscribing to a mailing list, no?
Given that,
    > what difference does it truly make if someone is recommending
specific
    > recordings or books, or simply relating the ways in which he or
she organizes
    > his or her recordings, and, by extension, his or her life?

    > What I mean to say is, if I were hanging with anyone on this list
at the local
    > watering hole (and I've been lucky enough to do so on several
occasions), I most
    > certainly wouldn't get bent if we started talking about how we
organized our
    > collections.  What difference does it truly make, therefore, if we
do the same
    > online?  Is "bandwidth" honestly that scarce a resource?  If not,
I repeat,
    > everyone's always got his or her delete button at hand, and no
one's forcing
    > anyone to read anything at all...

    > My view of the Zornlist is that it is actually more than just a
mailing list of
    > people who talk about a finite number of CDs, but rather that of a
community
    > that exists here in "cyberspace" because it cannot exist in the
real world,
    > geographically speaking.  Otherwise, we'd just form a club and
build a
    > clubhouse, no?  Therefore, I respectfully submit, chatter about
the order in
    > which we arrange our recordings is as germane as anything else.

    Steve.

    I'm sorry. I thought the point of subscribing to the Zorn list was
to engage in
    discussions with like-minded (or sometimes, not so like-minded)
people about
    things like John Zorn the man; Zorn's music; the music of others who
work in
    the same or similar tradition as Zorn; music in general; or other
related topics
    of some cultural, intellectual or aesthetic interest.
    Steve, I'm glad you know maybe one or two subscribers to this list.
I happen to
    know at least one too. That doesn't mean that I send him mail
regarding my
    personal quips, habits and mannerisms through a public list. I do it
privately, a
    suggestion that quite a few other members have also recommended.
Anyway,
    I believe that it's a mistake to compare this list to a local
watering hole. It's not
    even a question of bandwidth. It's a question of time and of
consideration of
    context.

    p.s. Sorry about the name mix-up

    Charles.





-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: nils <[e-mail]>
Subject: re: who cares?
Date: 29 Sep 1998 10:31:34 -0500

Charles Jacobus <[e-mail]> wrote:

> I believe that it's a mistake to compare this list to a local
> watering hole.

Charles, I have two nuggets of advice for you:

1.  Don't quote the entire message you're replying to,
it's almost always a huge waste of bandwidth.

2.  Maybe you should find another watering hole if
you don't like the flavor of the water here.

n


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Charles Jacobus <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: who cares?
Date: 29 Sep 1998 10:52:25 -0400

n, I'll take your first nugget, and throw the
second one right back at you.
You completely missed my point; I enjoy
the flavor of the water here. It's just that the
color gets kind of funky sometimes!

Charles.

> -----Original Message-----
> From:    nils [SMTP:[e-mail]]
> Sent:    Tuesday, September 29, 1998 11:32 AM
> To:    [e-mail]
> Subject:    re: who cares?
>
> Charles Jacobus <[e-mail]> wrote:
>
> > I believe that it's a mistake to compare this list to a local
> > watering hole.
>
> Charles, I have two nuggets of advice for you:
>
> 1.  Don't quote the entire message you're replying to,
> it's almost always a huge waste of bandwidth.
>
> 2.  Maybe you should find another watering hole if
> you don't like the flavor of the water here.
>
> n
>
>
> -

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: David Keffer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fushitsusha on VICTO
Date: 29 Sep 1998 11:03:56 -0400


Hello folks on the Zorn-list,

Has anybody yet heard the new Fushitsusha release on
Les Disques Victo (VICTO 060, 1998), "Withdrawe, this
sable Disclosure ere devot'd"?  I know that it is live
at the Festival International de Musique Actuelle Victoriaville,
Canada from May 16, 1997.  Do any of you have reviews?
Is it dense Fushitsusha or tinkering Fushitsusha?

Thanks.

David "Just bought a plane ticket from Tennessee to NYC to see Fushitsusha
on Halloween" K.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Brent Burton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Special Bonus Post!
Date: 29 Sep 1998 11:04:38 -0400 (EDT)

On Mon, 28 Sep 1998, Gene Natalia wrote:

>     Finally, John Zorn came out wearing his reddish orange T-shirt and
> grotesquely gaudy fluorescent camouflage muscle pants, which for some
> reason, he must always wear.  Initially it seemed to me that he wore the
> same clothes at every show, even on consecutive nights, but my new theory
> is that he has a legion of these garments in his closet, for they are
> always clean.

yeah, what's up with that?  does anyone ever see him around town dressed
like this?

b

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Messiaen
Date: 29 Sep 1998 11:02:04 EDT

In a message dated 98-09-29 02:38:16 EDT, you write:
>Maybe someone could recommend some other Messiaen?

My favorite Messiaen tends to be his more lush works, rather than his pieces
with a heavy percussion bent or his song cycles.

Two favorite works in this vein are:
-Turrangalila symphony (in Previn's recording, though I've yet heard a
recording of this work I dislike--I have 6)
-Le Ascension (in the orchestral version). Stokowski's on London is my
favorite here (I don't know if it's ever been CD'd).
-And I adore the quartet for the end of time, and of the dozen or so versions
I know, my favorite is the one w/ Gruenberg on Angel/EMI.

His organ works took me much getting used to, but I've come to enjoy many. His
long, bird-song oriented piano cycles also took me awhile, and I still blow
hot and cold on them.

His St Francis of Asisi opera does little for me, but I've never been drawn to
many latter-half-20th Century operas.

Hope this is of some help,

Dave Royko

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Actual Post Regarding Zorn
Date: 29 Sep 1998 08:15:36 -0700


On Mon, 28 Sep 1998 22:16:31 -0400  Alan Lankin wrote:
>
> A recent mailing from Downtown Music Gallery implies that there'll be a
> series of live Masada albums coming up.  Any more info on this??

This is old info (Douglas mentioned it to me in 1995!), but there was a
project to release the following two sets on Tzadik:


*** - LIVE IN JERUSALEM: Masada

    ???? - Tzadik (USA), ??? (CD)

  Note: not released yet.


*** - LIVE AT MOGADOR: Masada

    ???? - Tzadik (USA), ??? (CD)

  Note: not released yet.


    Patrice.

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From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Messiaen
Date: 29 Sep 1998 08:34:45 -0700


On Mon, 28 Sep 1998 18:07:06 -0700  Gene Natalia wrote:
>
> I'd say Messiaen is very relevant to this list since Zorn has covered a
> piece by Messiaen with Naked City on Grand Guignol.  I only have one
> Messiaen disc, so I don't feel qualified to recommend anything by him
> relative to other pieces by him, but I enjoy my Quatuor pur la Fin du
> Temps(Quartet for the End of Time), which contains the piece that Zorn
> covered.  Maybe someone could recommend some other Messiaen?

CHRONOCHROMIE, COULEURS DE LA CITE CELESTE, ET EXPECTO RESURECTIONEM
MORTUORUM are three great pieces for orchestra. They illustrate at perfection
Messiaen's rhythmic talent and control of orchestral masses (with such a
level of rhythmic, harmonic, and contrapunctal complexity, the pieces could
end up a total mess; there are amazingly clear and fascinating). If I remember
well, you can find all three on one CD with Boulez conducting.

Another favorite is 3 PETITES LITURGIES DE LA PRESENCE DIVINE, which is mainly
a vocal piece with strings and Ondes Martenot.

    Patrice.




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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re[2]: Special Bonus Post!
Date: 29 Sep 1998 11:16:57 -0500




Brent wrote:

>yeah, what's up with that?  does anyone ever see him around town dressed
>like this?

     Ah, Zornian fashion--certainly a proper topic for this list!

     The last few times I've seen Zorn on the streets (actually, usually
     prowling the bins at Other Music), he's been sporting a black leather
     jacket, but not the camo pants.

     Way, way back, around 1976-77, before the world knew of Zorn, he would
     cut quite the figure at various "loft" jazz venues. Typically, he'd
     arrive on bicycle, hair down past his waist, wearing gold and red
     football knickers and those thick, geekish glasses he's since
     discarded. Who'da thunk he'd come this far?

     Brian Olewnick




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From: BJOERN <[e-mail]>
Subject: Costello/Bacharach
Date: 29 Sep 1998 18:47:24 +0200 (MEST)

well i'm a bit confused that noone sent a review of that one so far....

so here is my first impression,,
it sounds alot like bacharach in the old days (reach out etc.)..
since the liner notes say "all songs composed by burt bacharach and elvis
costello" i thought that both of them composed the music..but it sounds so
much like bacharach that i now believe that costello did the lyrics only
(anyone know anything about that??).
to make the record more list related : greg cohen plays bass on it.
i really like it and i think that there will be some new bacharach
standarts after that record...
for example song #5 called "tears at the birthday party"
well anyways if u like bacharach u should by it...

BJOERN


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: modern composition
Date: 29 Sep 1998 13:12:03 EDT

Most of the classical music I listen to is electroacoustic, which I think
we've gone over here in depth a few times. The two acoustic classical
recommendations I'd make to Zorn listeners starting to dip a toe into
classical are the two CD set of Xenakis' complete string quartets by the
Arditti on Montaigne and pretty much anything by Iancu Dumitrescu,
particularly volumes 1 and 3 of his Edition Modern series.

Jon

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From: "hijk" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: modern composition
Date: 29 Sep 1998 10:45:03 -0400

I can highly recommend Zappa's Yellow Shark and Civilization Phase III. ( I
once asked Zorn if he'd ever consider playing/recording any Zappa works, he
sort of laughed it off without answering).  Might I also be so bold to
suggest the recent releases by Sonic Youth on their own SYR label.

Jeff Kent


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From: Rich Williams <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Special Bonus Post
Date: 29 Sep 1998 13:39:21 -0500

Brent Burton wrote:
>
> On Mon, 28 Sep 1998, Gene Natalia wrote:
>
> >       Finally, John Zorn came out wearing his reddish orange T-shirt and
> > grotesquely gaudy fluorescent camouflage muscle pants, which for some
> > reason, he must always wear.  Initially it seemed to me that he wore the
> > same clothes at every show, even on consecutive nights, but my new theory
> > is that he has a legion of these garments in his closet, for they are
> > always clean.
>
> yeah, what's up with that?  does anyone ever see him around town dressed
> like this?


        With the possible exceptions of Jamaaladeen Tacuma, and(for
those with
really long memories), Moondog, Zorn has always been the nattiest
fashion plate on the NY music scene. ;-)


RW

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From: [e-mail] (Mike Chamberlain)
Subject: Re: complaining
Date: 29 Sep 1998 19:22:29 GMT

Christian Heslop,[e-mail],Internet writes:

>I object to your complaints. Something needs to be done about people like
>you.


>>Chris Genzel wrote:
>>I hereby wish to complain about the people on this list who are complaining
>>about the people on this list who are complaining that too many people on
>>this
>>list are complaining.

Can't we take this to the Listserv Central Board of Directors and get all the
complainers kicked out?  I think I'm going to file a formal complaint.

--Mike


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tom Pratt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: finaly, an idea hit upon
Date: 29 Sep 1998 17:22:26 -0400

Charles Jacobus wrote:
>
> In response to [e-mail]:
>
> While I would agree that Zorn's (as with so many other artist's of
> that generation) compositional methods are process-oriented and that
> that method may be an integral part of making the sounds he makes,
> I don't think that an appreciation of the method (or even a knowledge or
> understanding of it, for those who haven't had the privilege of seeing
> him perform) is required to appreciate the music.

However, in Zorn's game pieces where the compositional method/process
virtually IS the composition, the only interesting thing would be to see
them because musically, they often result in some pretty worthless shit.
Zorn has himself has said that he cares more for the process than the
product so it's the process we should be paying attention to.

                -Tom Pratt

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From: "Scott Handley" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Modern comp: electroacoustic (redux redux)
Date: 29 Sep 1998 16:26:34 PDT

John Abbey wrote:
>Most of the classical music I listen to is electroacoustic, which I
think
>we've gone over here in depth a few times.

Caleb Dupree wrote:
>Parmegiani and Bayle (both electroacousticians extraordinaire)

Pardon my laziness, folks, but could we get some REALLY GREAT
ELECTROACOUSTIC RECORDINGS lists broken-out....I mean, BRAG, ya'll!
Seriously, though, how are the Computer Music series of CDs on Wergo,
especially number 13 w/ the big ass book?  Or for that matter what are
any of the electroacoustic/digital/computer recordings on the Wergo
label like?  I could sure use some opinionated recommendation w/
"descriptions" of the content and approach.

Thanks and all!

--sh


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Circle9 <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Costello/Bacharach
Date: 29 Sep 1998 22:06:10 -0400

I just picked it up yesterday- and I must say, I wasn't immediately thrilled.
A few more listens and it might grab me more- I don't know, sometimes an EC
album will grow on me in time (It took me two years to realize just how much I
liked "Mighty Like a Rose"). My main complaint, though, would ne EC's vocals.
They don't really feel right for the music- perhaps if they had brought in one
of the old legends of the Bacharach camp to sing them, they would have had a
greater impression on me. (I read a review that said it shoud have been Luther
Vandross' gig. Hmmm... Perhaps.). Still, I've been really happy with EC's
output over the last four-five years, so perhaps I over-hyped it to myself.
Not nearly the dissapointment the new Brian Wilson was (but then I half
expected that...)

    -S.

BJOERN wrote:

> well i'm a bit confused that noone sent a review of that one so far....
>
> so here is my first impression,,
> it sounds alot like bacharach in the old days (reach out etc.)..
> since the liner notes say "all songs composed by burt bacharach and elvis
> costello" i thought that both of them composed the music..but it sounds so
> much like bacharach that i now believe that costello did the lyrics only
> (anyone know anything about that??).
> to make the record more list related : greg cohen plays bass on it.
> i really like it and i think that there will be some new bacharach
> standarts after that record...
> for example song #5 called "tears at the birthday party"
> well anyways if u like bacharach u should by it...
>
> BJOERN
>
> -


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From: "Mark Corroto" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MASADA 10
Date: 29 Sep 1998 22:25:08 -0400

Don't ask how
but I have two unopened copies of Masada 10
in front of me

Someone please respond (off-list 0f course) and send
me the sum of $16
and I'll mail you the disk

mc


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From: stephen drury <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: modern composition
Date: 29 Sep 1998 22:42:48 -0400

I appreciated Caleb Deupree's excellent overview of recent "concert hall"
composers, which included a couple of names I didn't recognize.  It seems to
me that one of the things Zorn is all about (I suppose this is obvious) is
rejecting the restraints on listening abilities which allow us to hear, say,
Bird but not Bartok.  Allow me to add a few more names which may be of
interest --
Franco Donatoni was here (Boston) this last weekend.  Amazingly dense,
driven stuff.  Somewhere between Ligeti and Xenakis.
Sciarrino --  John Cage meets Scelsi.
Lachenmann -- beautifully crafted, elegant, and the most irritating music I
know.
Ferneyhough -- the thinking man's freakazoid.  Hideously intelligent,
complex like nuclear fusion.
And of course the old, oft-mentioned guys:  Ives, Partch, Ruggles, Feldman,
even Bartok.



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Taylor McLaren <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: finaly, an idea hit upon
Date: 29 Sep 1998 23:33:05 -0400


MEEP! Tom Pratt wrote:
>Zorn has himself has said that he cares more for the process than the
>product so it's the process we should be paying attention to.
I'm not so sure about that. As musicians, after all, I'd imagine that the
participants are involved in such performances as much as
technique-building exercises and "serious fun" as much as anything else; as
a selfish listener, I don't really give a damn whether or not the
performers feel that they have expanded their grasp of musicianship at the
end of the show. I don't question that the process is as much a part of the
experience as the music, but if the result is unlistenable shit, what was
the point of trying to listen to it in the first place? Would I be dredging
up a bad memory by mentioning Spruance's reaction to _Weird Little Boy_ again?

-me


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Hypocrisy?
Date: 30 Sep 1998 00:18:57 -0400

[e-mail] wrote:

> allthough i must admit i was disapointed that "who cares" was not from the
> notorious nightclub crawler and sometime calvin klien model who also goes by
> Gene Natalia (or the simular Jenny Talia)

I think I'm somewhat relieved that I only just now "got" this pretty weak
joke-o-nym.

> i agree with ehan that the bulk of
> this list is crap

That's a disappointment, but I beg to differ with you and Ethan both.

> no conversation about music or aesthitics other than high
> school lunch room drivel about "gee did you get the new album? it's great."

You must not have been here for very long.  There have been any number of
detailed, lengthy and occasionally heated debates about the finer points of
aesthetics here.  Not to mention long. long threads on the recording one might buy
to attain an understanding of any number of esoteric musical styles, from Japanese
noise to musique concrete.  Honestly, I consider this here little list to be as
valuable to my shopping decisions as The Wire and other generally agreed-upon
sourcees.  Perhaps you just haven't been around long enough to notice?

> the biggest debate has boiled down to the same old "i'm cooler than you" shite
> common to lockerooms.

Shite common to most mailing lists I've ever seen, as well.  But I would argue
that there are far fewer oneupsmanship contests and pissing matches here than on
just about any other list I've been on.

And if all this fine grammar fails to convince you, well, like Dale said...  or
better yet, if what you see is less than you expect, then offer a higher standard
yourself rather than insulting those here with you.

Steve Smith
[e-mail]


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Special Bonus Post!
Date: 30 Sep 1998 00:37:16 -0400

Brent Burton wrote:

> On Mon, 28 Sep 1998, Gene Natalia wrote:
>
> >       Finally, John Zorn came out wearing his reddish orange T-shirt and
> > grotesquely gaudy fluorescent camouflage muscle pants, which for some
> > reason, he must always wear.  Initially it seemed to me that he wore the
> > same clothes at every show, even on consecutive nights, but my new theory
> > is that he has a legion of these garments in his closet, for they are
> > always clean.
>
> yeah, what's up with that?  does anyone ever see him around town dressed
> like this?

Yes, twice on the street and once at an Ornette Coleman concert at Lincoln
Center, which leads me to think it more than a coincidence.

Steve Smith
[e-mail]


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: who cares?
Date: 30 Sep 1998 01:27:37 -0400

Charles Jacobus wrote:

> I'm sorry. I thought the point of subscribing to the Zorn list was
> to engage in discussions with like-minded (or sometimes, not so like-minded)
> people about things like John Zorn the man; Zorn's music; the music of others
> who
> work in the same or similar tradition as Zorn; music in general; or other
> related topics of some cultural, intellectual or aesthetic interest.

While I would vehemently argue that Zorn the man is none of our fucking
business, everything else you mention has been at the heart of the Zornlist for
at the very least the three years I've been reading it in one place or another.
And in all of those years there have similarly been silly asides like the
ordering of unwieldy collections of recordings.

> Steve, I'm glad you know maybe one or two subscribers to this list.  I happen
> to know at least one too. That doesn't mean that I send him mail regarding my
> personal quips, habits and mannerisms through a public list. I do it privately

Yes, yes, but we're not talking about a single friend or even a few friends
here.  We're talking about a potential pool of (Mike, jump in and correct me if
I'm wrong) about a thousand people here, maybe more.  I've met a few Zornlisters
in person, you know at least one, and yet together we've not exhausted the
possibility of numbering our real-world contacts with these likeminded folks and
friends on the fingers of merely two hands.

It seems to me that a public mailing list of like-minded people is about the
same as a community of friends that are geographically in proximity.  Perhaps
your definition differs.  My position is that just as it's valid for me to get
recommendations of preferred Zorn, or Laswell, or drum'n'bass, or Messaien
recordings from someone in Oakland, California or in Lawrence, Kansas or in
Sydney, Australia, it's also valid for folks who've become comfortable in
regularly sharing such opinions to also exchange small talk about things like
how we arrange our recordings, our schedules, our lives.

To my mind it's a fractalization (to use a Robert Fripp term of which I've grown
increasingly fond) of what's been referred to as the "global village" for
decades -- i.e., if mass media makes a village of the entire world, a la
McLuhan, then internet mailing lists allow us to "hang out" with those with whom
we may have the most in common, whether we are in the same town or merely on the
same planet.

> I believe that it's a mistake to compare this list to a local watering hole.
> It's not
> even a question of bandwidth. It's a question of time and of consideration
> of         context.

And that, I think, is our real difference of opinion.  To me, the internet and
mailing list technology creates the very real possibility of a "local watering
hole" -- i.e., a real and comfortable community of likeminded individuals --
across the face of the entire planet.  And folks I would trust with record
buying and concert attending suggestions are also folks from whom I don't mind
idle chatter regarding the ordering of piles and piles of CDs.

Of all the lists I've ever been on, the Zornlist is the most egalitarian, the
most diverse, and definitely the most worthwhile.  I don't know if John would
give a damn, but it makes me happy to get home from work and download a pile of
chatter from these folks every night.

The end of my prattle (i.e., I've said my piece),
Steve Smith
[e-mail]


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: who cares?
Date: 30 Sep 1998 02:45:47 EDT

In a message dated 9/29/98 10:39:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
[e-mail] writes:

>     I believe that it's a mistake to compare this list to a local
>  watering hole. It's not
>      even a question of bandwidth. It's a question of time and of
>  consideration of context.

According to last weeks Guiness World Records TV show, the fastest clocked
time for someone to hit the "delete" button is .065 seconds.  My average is at
best about 1.2 seconds, and even with my hectic schedule, it doesn't really
bother me.


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Stephane Vuilleumier" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Messiaen
Date: 30 Sep 1998 08:50:41 +0200

On a Zorn related note, Messiaen's
CATALOGUE D'OISEAUX for solo piano compares favourably to
Zorn's birdcall antics IMHO of course. But then I remember Patrice saying
that they got him into Zorn so...

Stephane
-----Original Message-----
Cc: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>;
[e-mail] <[e-mail]>


someone could recommend some other Messiaen?
:
:CHRONOCHROMIE, COULEURS DE LA CITE CELESTE, ET EXPECTO RESURECTIONEM
:MORTUORUM are three great pieces for orchestra. They illustrate at perfection
:Messiaen's rhythmic talent and control of orchestral masses (with such a
:level of rhythmic, harmonic, and contrapunctal complexity, the pieces could
:end up a total mess; there are amazingly clear and fascinating). If I remember
:well, you can find all three on one CD with Boulez conducting.
:
:Another favorite is 3 PETITES LITURGIES DE LA PRESENCE DIVINE, which is mainly
:a vocal piece with strings and Ondes Martenot.
:



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Scott Handley" <[e-mail]>
Subject: electroacoutic: proactive suggestions
Date: 29 Sep 1998 18:45:21 PDT

Occurred to me that I typed the last post hurriedly, making only
demands.  Nothing many of you haven't already heard here, but for those
who HAVEN'T:

1. Evan Parker Elec'coustic Ensemble: TOWARD THE MARGINS  Let me say it
again: I love this record.  A beautiful clutter of phrases and sounds
scuttling beneath waves of live electronic manipulation.  A super must
have for EP fans and others.

2. Evan Parker: LIVE AT INSTANT CHAVIRES  I've talked about this one
too, before.  Evan solo soprano w/ live manipulations plus Noel Akchote
guesting on elec. guitar.  Really otherworldly.

3. Xenakis  LA LEGENDE D'EER  A continuous 46' comp for tape, beginning
w/ a meditation on the extremes of the audible high register and moving
through....dare I say it? DARE I resort to cliches?....soundscapes of
actually very affectingly subtle change.  Includes sliced and diced
r4cordings of nonwestern percussion, etc., takes inspiration from Plato,
etc.

These are a few I've really dug.  I'd love to get switched on on to
other stuff.  I also got the Xenakis EMF and the KRAANERG w/ DJ Spooky,
but I haven't listened to those carefully yet.  Really scary though.
How about Musica Eletronnica Viva?  Or Nono?

If CDs were $5, I would never bother any of you w/ these posts.

---sh

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Star Leigh Wall <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Costello/Bacharach (No Zorn content)
Date: 30 Sep 1998 00:30:30 -0700

>since the liner notes say "all songs composed by burt bacharach and elvis
>costello" i thought that both of them composed the music..but it sounds so
>much like bacharach that i now believe that costello did the lyrics only

I don't have the album yet (hopefully it's on its way in the mail right
now), but I've read/heard quite a bit about Costello and Bacharach's
collaboration over the past couple years.  The two of them work on the
music together, rather than Elvis simply adding lyrics to Burt's
arrangements.  In an article I read recently, Elvis commented, "It's a
collaboration in the truest sense: Burt leads me towards things and vice
versa. It's not just a case of me coming in with the lyrics and Burt
arranging them - we've written this music together."   In an earlier joint
interview with Bacharach, Elvis also mentioned that although some might
assume that the more aggressive/intense parts come from him (and, by the
same token, that the more 'lush', softer sounds come from Burt), it is
actually often the opposite.

>My main complaint, though, would ne EC's vocals.
>They don't really feel right for the music-

Is this because he sounds too shrill, or what? I'm a huge EC fan, but I
occasionally feel that his vocals seem too strained when he hits the higher
notes (for example, on parts of _The Juliet Letters_).   Just curious if
that was the case on _Painted_.

== Star Leigh Wall



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: BJOERN <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Costello/Bacharach (No Zorn content)
Date: 30 Sep 1998 10:33:16 +0200 (MEST)

> >My main complaint, though, would ne EC's vocals.
> >They don't really feel right for the music-
>
> Is this because he sounds too shrill, or what? I'm a huge EC fan, but I
> occasionally feel that his vocals seem too strained when he hits the higher
> notes (for example, on parts of _The Juliet Letters_).   Just curious if
> that was the case on _Painted_.
yepp thats it... although i think there are some songs he sings quite
good..
i think it would have been kinda boring if tom jones or dionne warwick
would have sung the lyrics...

about that Brian Wilson album mentioned: yes , damn it sucks

BJOERN


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "J.T. de Boer" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Modern comp: electroacoustic (redux redux)
Date: 30 Sep 1998 12:19:50 +0200

> Or for that matter what are
> any of the electroacoustic/digital/computer recordings on the Wergo
> label like?  I could sure use some opinionated recommendation w/
> "descriptions" of the content and approach.

You should definately take a listen to Morton Subotnick's 'Jacob's
Room', a piece for computer, vocal and cello. Joan La Barbara, the
vocalist, gives an immensely intense performance when she sings the
story of Jacob, a jewish man who lived in Europe during the holocaust
and experienced things we all can imagine (listen to "Never
Again"...). All the people who I confront with this composition say
it's about the most breathtaking piece of music they've ever heard.


Jeroen

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "hijk" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Cobra Etc..
Date: 30 Sep 1998 08:30:29 -0400

I agree with Tom Pratt when he says that the game pieces are more
interesting to see being 'played'.  If Zorn believes it is the process not
the product, why record any of the game pieces?  I've got the Hat Hut Cobras
and the Live KF Cobras, none are as FUN as the live shows.  My wife runs
screaming (like Eye, ironically) at the mere mention of Zorn, but I dragged
her to see Cobra at the old Knit with Zorn playing and she had a blast.

Someone should bring back Cobra as a once a month event.  How about an all
Zornlist Cobra?

Jeff Kent


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: FJG_Lamerikx <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Cobra Etc..
Date: 30 Sep 1998 14:45:08 +0200 (MET DST)


> I agree with Tom Pratt when he says that the game pieces are more
> interesting to see being 'played'.  If Zorn believes it is the process not
> the product, why record any of the game pieces?  I've got the Hat Hut Cobras
> and the Live KF Cobras, none are as FUN as the live shows.  My wife runs
> screaming (like Eye, ironically) at the mere mention of Zorn, but I dragged
> her to see Cobra at the old Knit with Zorn playing and she had a blast.
>
> Someone should bring back Cobra as a once a month event.  How about an all
> Zornlist Cobra?

I have a few questions concerning this subject. I just returned from Japan,
and saw that the Parachute Years box set was priced at a mere 90 dollars.
This is substantially less than I'd have to pay here in Holland, but I was
still reluctant to buy given the nature of the material.
I remember Simon Hopkins referring to it in The Wire as a seminal set of
recordings. What are people's opinions about it here?
Also, of all game pieces that Zorn wrote, only Cobra and Xu Feng appear to
be played regularly. Are these by any standard his best accomplished game
pieces? If so, why isn't there a recorded version of Xu Feng available?

Frankco.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Brent Burton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: electroacoutic: proactive suggestions
Date: 30 Sep 1998 10:05:29 -0400 (EDT)

On Tue, 29 Sep 1998, Scott Handley wrote:

> These are a few I've really dug.  I'd love to get switched on on to
> other stuff.  I also got the Xenakis EMF and the KRAANERG w/ DJ Spooky,
> but I haven't listened to those carefully yet.  Really scary though.

stockhausen's "hymnen" with orchestra, which was reissued this year on
stockhausen verlag, is a pretty amazing example of electroacoustic
music, however @ $40 it's prohibitively expensive for all but a few
zealots.  although it is really mindboggling at times to try to figure
out which sounds emanate from the electronic tape and which sounds are
coming from the orchestra.  i would be willing to tape it for anyone who
would make me a copy of confessor's album.

> How about Musica Eletronnica Viva?

when i picked up mev's "sound pool" i was initially pretty disappointed.
it's a very communal free jam - entirely improvised - most audibly
featuring a lot of acoustic instruments.  what i guess i was expecting from
musica electronica viva was more electronica.  i really think richard
teitlebaum's (sp?) recordings with anthony braxton are a lot more
predominately electronic, intricate and interesting.

on a similar note, i recently came across a copy of a don cherry
collaboration with jon appleton, who processes cherry's trumpet solos
through old analog synths.  some really amazing stuff and a definite
precursor to evan parker's recent electroacoustic records (like the one
with lawrence casserly on touch).  the cherry/appleton record is on bob
thiele's red baron label (!) and i would highly recommend it.

b

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Julian" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Cobra Etc..
Date: 01 Oct 1998 00:11:14 +1000

> Also, of all game pieces that Zorn wrote, only Cobra and Xu Feng appear
to
> be played regularly. Are these by any standard his best accomplished game
> pieces? If so, why isn't there a recorded version of Xu Feng available?

An excerpt of Xu Feng appears on (Y)earbook No. 2 on Rastascan records. Is
there any reason why Zorn hasn't thought done a commercial video release of
some of these game pieces?


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:    William York <[e-mail]>
Subject: PK Dick and E# (late, I know)
Date: 30 Sep 1998 10:44:24 -0400 (EDT)

Steve Smith wrote:

> Honestly, I consider this here little list to be as
> valuable to my shopping decisions as The Wire and other generally agreed-upon
> sourcees.  Perhaps you just haven't been around long enough to notice?

Actually I get about 75% of the recommendations for stuff to get from this
list.  In fact, I can't even keep up with all the recommendations - not
enough time or $$.

Anyway, maybe someone mentioned this already but E# has a song called PKD
on _Arc 3: Cyberpunk..._ which is pretty cool if a little dated by those
80s drum machines.  OTOH, I was not at all impressed by the Tectonics CD
that just came out - I was wondering if someone could enlighten me here or
is this one just a dud.  (By the way, I really don't know anything about
P.K. Dick, just thought I'd chime in).

Knitting Factory did put out one really good CD out of the last batch, in
my opinion, which was the Misako Kano Quartet w/ Thomas Chapin.  Not
completely out or straight ahead, but best because she doesn't sound a
thing like Cecil Taylor and Chapin's playing is strong as was usual.

Just in case anyone was interested...

WY


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MASADA 10
Date: 30 Sep 1998 09:31:11 -0700


On Tue, 29 Sep 1998 22:25:08 -0400  "Mark Corroto" wrote:
>

BTW, what is the exact name of MASADA 10? I have read various titles:

    YODH
    RUACH
    YOD

Any idea which one is the correct one?

    Thanks,

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Brent Burton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: electroacoutic: proactive suggestions
Date: 30 Sep 1998 12:21:01 -0400 (EDT)

On Wed, 30 Sep 1998, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:

> Here is what Frederic Rzewski told me about this incarnation of MEV:
>
>   In 1968/69 MEV experimented with audience participation and took on a number
>   of new younger people, many of whom were not musicians.  We wanted to see
>   how far we could extend the idea of free improvisation, surrounding the core
>   group with people who happened to be around.  The group expanded and spawned
>   separate communities.  In the early 70's there were three MEV's: one in
>   Rome, led by Alvin Curran; one in New York, where Richard Teitelbaum & I
>   were based; and one in Paris, which was organized by the Coaquettes.  Birgit
>   and Nona were members of the Living Theatre, with whom we also hung out a
>   lot, and Stefano was one of the younger acolytes.  The record you are
>   talking about was a kind of hippie child who chose MEV as its identity.
>   Nobody ever found out really who was in MEV.  At that time, it was part of a
>   movement, and that part of it that was a part of the movement lived and died
>   with that movement.

from what i understood, "leave the city" was the hippie album.  i don't
have the cd in front of me here @ work, but i thought that richard
teitelbaum and alvin curran were involved with "sound pool" and that it
was more representative of the mev *sound*.  hopefully i'm wrong.  i guess
the problem then would be that the only mev cds in print are the ones
recorded after the international split (both originally issued on
byg/actuel and reissued on spalax).  can anyone recommend other good mev
albums prior to '68/'69?

b

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: electroacoutic: proactive suggestions
Date: 30 Sep 1998 10:10:28 -0700


On Wed, 30 Sep 1998 12:21:01 -0400 (EDT)  Brent Burton wrote:
>
> from what i understood, "leave the city" was the hippie album.  i don't
> have the cd in front of me here @ work, but i thought that richard
> teitelbaum and alvin curran were involved with "sound pool" and that it
> was more representative of the mev *sound*.  hopefully i'm wrong.  i guess
> the problem then would be that the only mev cds in print are the ones
> recorded after the international split (both originally issued on
> byg/actuel and reissued on spalax).  can anyone recommend other good mev
> albums prior to '68/'69?

The quote from Rzewski was an answer to a question about the origin of:


*** - LEAVE THE CITY: Musica Elettronica Viva

    1971 (?) - Byg Record, 529.335 (LP)
    1997 - Spalax (France), CD 14968 (CD)


I thought that this incarnation of MEV put out two records on Byg in 1969. I
assumed (wrongly?) that the other was THE SOUND POOL.

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Saidel Eric J <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MASADA 10
Date: 30 Sep 1998 12:02:32 -0500 (CDT)

Patrice asked:

>
> BTW, what is the exact name of MASADA 10? I have read various titles:
>
>     YODH
>     RUACH
>     YOD
>
> Any idea which one is the correct one?

Living where I do in the middle of nowhere, I have yet to see it.  Does
it look like an apostrophe?  (The title, that is)  I assume Zorn is
continuing his practice of giving the Masada albums names from the
Hebrew alphabet.  If so, the tenth letter is Yud (or Yodh or Yod),
rhymes with "should".  If the letter doesn't look like an apostrophe,
ignore all this.

- eric



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: MEV (was electroacoustic: proactive suggestions)
Date: 30 Sep 1998 13:41:30 EDT


In a message dated 9/30/98 12:43:39 PM, [e-mail] wrote:

<<i guess the problem then would be that the only mev cds in print are the
ones
recorded after the international split (both originally issued on
byg/actuel and reissued on spalax).  can anyone recommend other good mev
albums prior to '68/'69?>>

The only other CD of MEV besides the two Spalax releases available as far as I
know is one on Allan Bryant's IRML label, which is from 1968. The liner notes
are written phonetically, so excuse any spelling mistakes in my personnel
listing. This incarnation of MEV consists of Frederic Rzewski, Allan Bryant,
Alvin Curran, and Jon Phetteplace. This CD is far superior to the two issued
on Spalax, which are of historical interest only. It was distributed by Forced
Exposure, and I don't know if it's still in print.

what I'd recommend instead of the Spalax MEV CDs is checking out either of the
two CDs by Gruppo di Improvvisazione Nuova Consonanza, an Italian collective
including Ennio Morricone and Giancarlo Schiaffini, among others. The
retrospective on Edition RZ is superb, as is the one I just picked up on
Cramps, although it's shorter. The only other CD I know of from this band is
an Ennio Morricone soundtrack, _Giornata Nera Per L'Ariete/Gli Occhi Freddi
Della Paura_. my copy is currently lent out, so I can't give too many details,
but one of the two soundtracks on here was performed by the Gruppo and is
maybe their best work on disc. I don't remember the label off hand (maybe
Point?).

Jon

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: electroacoutic: proactive suggestions
Date: 30 Sep 1998 09:03:29 -0700


On Wed, 30 Sep 1998 10:05:29 -0400 (EDT)  Brent Burton wrote:
>
> On Tue, 29 Sep 1998, Scott Handley wrote:
>
> > How about Musica Eletronnica Viva?
>
> when i picked up mev's "sound pool" i was initially pretty disappointed.
> it's a very communal free jam - entirely improvised - most audibly
> featuring a lot of acoustic instruments.  what i guess i was expecting from
> musica electronica viva was more electronica.  i really think richard
> teitlebaum's (sp?) recordings with anthony braxton are a lot more
> predominately electronic, intricate and interesting.

I guess you got one of the two MEV to avoid at all prices!!!

Here is what Frederic Rzewski told me about this incarnation of MEV:

  In 1968/69 MEV experimented with audience participation and took on a number
  of new younger people, many of whom were not musicians.  We wanted to see
  how far we could extend the idea of free improvisation, surrounding the core
  group with people who happened to be around.  The group expanded and spawned
  separate communities.  In the early 70's there were three MEV's: one in
  Rome, led by Alvin Curran; one in New York, where Richard Teitelbaum & I
  were based; and one in Paris, which was organized by the Coaquettes.  Birgit
  and Nona were members of the Living Theatre, with whom we also hung out a
  lot, and Stefano was one of the younger acolytes.  The record you are
  talking about was a kind of hippie child who chose MEV as its identity.
  Nobody ever found out really who was in MEV.  At that time, it was part of a
  movement, and that part of it that was a part of the movement lived and died
  with that movement.

This incarnation of MEV put out two CDs which can disappoint if you are looking
for what the original MEV was about.

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Herb Levy <[e-mail]>
Subject:  Re: MASADA 10
Date: 30 Sep 1998 10:32:04 -0800

Patrice wrote:

>BTW, what is the exact name of MASADA 10? I have read various titles:
>
>    YODH
>    RUACH
>    YOD
>
>Any idea which one is the correct one?

I recently saw the tenth disc called Ruach (which means spirit or breath in
Hebrew) somewhere too.

I haven't got the disc, have only looked at the cover & it has a yod (the
letter that's also the number 10 in Hebrew) on it, just as all the earlier
discs have had the correct letter for the numerical order in which it was
released.  I've never seen the name of the letter anglicized as yodh, but
maybe I'm just missing out in life.

Bests,

Herb


Herb Levy
[e-mail]



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Dave Douglas
Date: 30 Sep 1998 15:56:28 -0300

Hello Zornies!

I'd like any thoughts and recommendations on Dave Douglas' cds. I have
Masada 8 and 9, Five (with the string group) and amazing Tiny Bell's
Live in Europe.
BTW, I have listened to a couple of tracks from Patricia Barber's Modern
Cool (Premonition) and not only she is great but Dave's participation is
outstanding.
So, what follow?/where to continue?/ what to pick up next?
You can email me privately if you want.

-Hugo



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: David Keffer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Zorn List
Date: 30 Sep 1998 15:11:33 -0400


>but it makes me happy to get home from work and download a pile of
>chatter from these folks every night.
>
>Steve Smith

Me too.

David K.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Felix" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: who cares?
Date: 30 Sep 1998 19:18:20 +0100

>While I would vehemently argue that Zorn the man is none of our fucking
>business, everything else you mention has been at the heart of the Zornlist
for
>at the very least the three years I've been reading it in one place or
another.
>And in all of those years there have similarly been silly asides like the
>ordering of unwieldy collections of recordings.
<SNIP>
>Of all the lists I've ever been on, the Zornlist is the most egalitarian,
the
>most diverse, and definitely the most worthwhile.  I don't know if John
would
>give a damn, but it makes me happy to get home from work and download a
pile of
>chatter from these folks every night.


Well said, Steve! I've been subscribed to some lists now, and find this to
be the most pleasant one to be a part of. After I bought "Elegy" I was not
sure if Zorn was the thing for me. It was with the help from this list that
I got to listen to such albums like "Spillane", "Kristallnacht" and
Filmworks series + stuff from Ikue Mori, Dave Douglas, Marc Ribot, etc,
which really got me deep into the jazz/experimental field. There are many
occasions when I really don't like the stuff being discussed on the list,
but I respect everyone's right to publicly discuss such topics. I just look
at the subject and delete the message. I really don't care about Golden
Palominos or Praxis or NYC gigs, but I know there are many people here who
are and I try my best to either understand or ignore those messages. And for
those who are "topic-defenders "who claim that they can discuss this and
that because it is vaguely related to Zorn, then we could end up discussing
16th century Portuguese history because Brasil was discovered in the 16th
century by the portuguese -> Brasil is home to Chico Buarque -> Lindsay
often works with Buarque -> Lindsay often works with Zorn. There you have
it - a connection...

Like Steve said - this is a gathering place for people who have a common
interest, but I'd find it degradating if the only thing discussed here was
Zorn. I'm glad it isn't, and I'm glad we can discuss Zorn when the
opportunity reveals itself.

Felix
[e-mail]


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Spirer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: who cares?
Date: 30 Sep 1998 13:17:43 -0700

At 07:18 PM 9/30/98 +0100, Felix wrote:

>Well said, Steve! I've been subscribed to some lists now, and find this to
>be the most pleasant one to be a part of...

I certainly agree with this.  However -

>that because it is vaguely related to Zorn, then we could end up discussing
>16th century Portuguese history because Brasil was discovered in the 16th
>century by the portuguese

More people lived in Brazil prior to the Portugese arrival than lived in
Portugal at the time.  It was hardly a "discovery" unless one believes that
only white people can discover.


Jeff Spirer
B&W Photos: http://www.pomegranates.com/frame/spirer/
Color and B&W Photos: http://www.hyperreal.org/~jeffs/gallery.html
Axiom/Material: http://www.hyperreal.org/axiom/

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Adam MacGregor)
Subject: Don Cherry question...
Date: 30 Sep 1998 17:30:07 -0400

Hey folks,

I saw somebody's post about Don Cherry and it reminded me:

Did Cherry not contribute the soundtrack for Jodorowsky's "The Holy Mountain?"
I seem to remember it being in a very eastern musical vein...excellent though...

Is it available on CD or is it hopelessly out-of-print (like the movie,
thanks to that fuck Allen Klein)?

thanks,

adam


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: who cares?
Date: 30 Sep 1998 18:18:00 EDT

In a message dated 98-09-30 15:40:03 EDT, you write:

<<  we could end up discussing
 16th century Portuguese history because Brasil was discovered in the 16th
 century by the portuguese -> Brasil is home to Chico Buarque -> Lindsay
 often works with Buarque -> Lindsay often works with Zorn. There you have
 it - a connection... >>

But more importantly, can anyone tie this to Kevin Bacon?

Dale.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Gabriela (Warning!! Non-Zorn Content!!)
Date: 30 Sep 1998 19:23:38 EDT

I picked up a CD by the guitarist/vocalist Gabriela yesterday from a cheap=
ie
bin, mainly because of the musicians in support on the CD.  They include B=
ill
Frisell, Rob Berger, Bill Douglass, Alex Acu=F1a, and Eyvind Kang.  Gabrie=
la has
a sensual earthy/smokey alto voice- a perfect match to the melodic Latino-
flavored folk music on the CD.  I find it a bit odd however, to see the
aforementioned musicians involved in such a project (maybe with the except=
ion
of Acu=F1a, of course.)  Can anyone give me more info on Gabriela and her
association with these musicians?

=3Ddgasque=3D


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re:  Don Cherry question...
Date: 30 Sep 1998 17:48:22 EDT


In a message dated 9/30/98 5:40:31 PM, [e-mail] wrote:

<<Did Cherry not contribute the soundtrack for Jodorowsky's "The Holy
Mountain?"
I seem to remember it being in a very eastern musical vein...excellent
though...>>

He most certainly did. And I agree, it's pretty cool.

<<Is it available on CD or is it hopelessly out-of-print (like the movie,
thanks to that fuck Allen Klein)?>>

Maybe I'm wrong, but my understanding was that the soundtrack was never
released at all. It certainly hasn't been released on CD. I bought a bootleg
of the video a few months back. Unfortunately, it was dubbed from a Japanese
copy, so it's letter-boxed with Japanese subtitles, and whenever genitalia are
shown too closely (somehwat frequently, if you haven't seen the movie), the
viewer is treated to a blurry spot in that place. What a wild, wild movie
though.

Jon

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Lang Thompson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Zorn's list
Date: 30 Sep 1998 19:56:16 -0400

Does anybody know what happened to the monthly list that Zorn used to put
up on the Tzadik website?
Lang Thompson
http://www.tcf.ua.edu/wlt4

New at the Funhouse website:  Did Elvis Steal Rock 'n'
Roll?, The X-Files Movie Bites!, music reviews

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Caleb T. Deupree" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: electroacoutic: proactive suggestions
Date: 30 Sep 1998 20:41:36 -0400

>>>>> "Scott" == Scott Handley <[e-mail]> writes:

    Scott> Or Nono?

Nono loved soprano voices and political texts, and much of his work
involves them in some form or other.  Your appreciation of his work
will therefore depend a great deal on your tolerance for this
combination (although his late works, which I haven't heard, involved
violin and were more instrumental).  como una ola de fuerza y luz
(like a wave of fire and light) also involves piano and orchestra in
addition to tape, and is pretty amazing, and ...Sofferte Onde
Serene...  is a piece for piano and tape which is also very good.

---
Caleb T. Deupree
;; Opinions...  funny thing about opinions, they can change.

Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers.
(Pablo Picasso)



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Caleb T. Deupree" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Cobra Etc..
Date: 30 Sep 1998 20:42:21 -0400

>>>>> "Frankco" == FJG Lamerikx <[e-mail]> writes:

    Frankco> I have a few questions concerning this subject. I just
    Frankco> returned from Japan, and saw that the Parachute Years box
    Frankco> set was priced at a mere 90 dollars.  This is
    Frankco> substantially less than I'd have to pay here in Holland,
    Frankco> but I was still reluctant to buy given the nature of the
    Frankco> material.  I remember Simon Hopkins referring to it in
    Frankco> The Wire as a seminal set of recordings. What are
    Frankco> people's opinions about it here?  Also, of all game
    Frankco> pieces that Zorn wrote, only Cobra and Xu Feng appear to
    Frankco> be played regularly. Are these by any standard his best
    Frankco> accomplished game pieces? If so, why isn't there a
    Frankco> recorded version of Xu Feng available?

I don't have the box set, but I still have old vinyl for some of the
material that ended up there, most notably Archery.  When the box set
first surfaced and we discussed it a little bit here, I listened to
all of Archery one night, and the closest reference point I could find
was the King Ubu Orchestra, a textural melange with most of the
instruments unrecognizable, and no discernable structure either.  Very
pointillistic, nothing like the various Cobra recordings I've heard.
And seminal merely means that it is a starting point for what came
later, not necessarily that it's inherently interesting.

I was at my local public library a month ago, and they had the entire
Butch Morris conduction set.  Perhaps you might find the parachute set
in a local library, where you could listen for a while without making
the purchase.

---
Caleb T. Deupree
;; Opinions...  funny thing about opinions, they can change.

Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers.
(Pablo Picasso)



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Corey Marc Fogel <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Dave Douglas
Date: 30 Sep 1998 19:08:43 -0700 (MST)



On Wed, 30 Sep 1998 [e-mail] wrote:

> I'd like any thoughts and recommendations on Dave Douglas' cds. I have
> Masada 8 and 9, Five (with the string group) and amazing Tiny Bell's
> Live in Europe.

Sanctuary, Stargazer, and In Our Lifetime are essential. ESSENTIAL!



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Corey Marc Fogel <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MASADA 10
Date: 30 Sep 1998 19:10:44 -0700 (MST)




> >BTW, what is the exact name of MASADA 10? I have read various titles:
> >
> >    YODH
> >    RUACH
> >    YOD

its called Yod, the hebrew letter. like every masada release.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Caleb T. Deupree" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Modern comp: electroacoustic (redux redux)
Date: 30 Sep 1998 22:21:31 -0400

At 04:26 PM 9/29/98 PDT, Scott Handley wrote:

>Pardon my laziness, folks

This really has been covered before.  Check out the archives at
ftp://ftp.xmission.com/pub/lists/zorn-list/archive/ around the end of March
of this year.

>but could we get some REALLY GREAT
>ELECTROACOUSTIC RECORDINGS lists broken-out....I mean, BRAG, ya'll!

I love this kind of music and have been listening to it probably more than
anything else lately (at least when I'm by myself), so I don't mind posting
more on the subject.

Since my last writeup on EA recordings, Bernard Fort's 12 Haiku has really
grown on me.  At first listening it sounds kind of tame, fairly homogenous
collection of wispy white noise, but repeated listenings show me new things
each time, very complex sounds with subtle variations.  And anyone who's
interested in the field who hasn't tried Dumitrescu, let me chime in with
another strong recommendation for the Pierres Sacrees album.  Dumitrescu
has an uncanny ability to make instrumental recordings sound like EA
pieces.  Two of the pieces on this record use prepared piano, and I'm
damned if I can hear much of it, a great use of Cage's instrument in ways
that Cage obviously never imagined.  Very highly recommended.

>Seriously, though, how are the Computer Music series of CDs on Wergo,
>especially number 13 w/ the big ass book?  Or for that matter what are
>any of the electroacoustic/digital/computer recordings on the Wergo
>label like?  I could sure use some opinionated recommendation w/
>"descriptions" of the content and approach.

I've got five of the comps: 3, 4, 6, 9, and 10.  My two favorites are 9,
which contains two works with piano (by Joji Yuasa and William Albright), a
stunning work with shakuhachi by Gerald Bennett, and one with percussion
ensemble by Thomas Delio.  All of these works make excellent use of
silence, sparse textures, and depart well enough from many of the cliches
of electroacoustic music.  My other favorite is #3, with a work each by
Francois Bayle, Richard Karpen, William Schottstaedt, and Johannes Goebel.
These are all fairly straight EA works, but all very well done.

Having been listening to a lot of EA music lately, I've come to recognize
stuff I like from stuff I don't.  The Europeans, especially the French,
came to this music early, with two of the pioneers (Pierres Henry and
Schaeffer) as founders.  There seems to be an attention to detail and
texture that I find lacking in a lot of American computer musicians,
perhaps stemming from the European origins of the music in radio studios
(with lots of sound effects and general manipulation equipment) rather than
the large computer laboratories of American universities.  For whatever
reason, the American pieces in the Wergo series seem to be lots of the
bippity-boop-boop school of computer music, and don't have the complex
sounds and layers of the EA music I like best.  Plus, a lot of the more
formal computer pieces hang on unreasonably to 'musical' elements like
pitch, harmony, lyrics, stuff which could be notated, whereas Bayle and his
associates at the GRM (an early French studio) seem to deal with raw sound,
finding or creating sounds in an external environment for further
manipulation (Bayle's piece on #3 takes its sounds from a creaking pulley
and running water).

The Wergo album I like the least is #4, which contains six pieces,
including a piece with chamber singers by Charles Dodge and a long piece
with voices by Roger Reynolds.  These exemplify the noodling, relatively
pure, computer generated tones that I've grown to dislike (never fond of
operatically-trained voices to begin with).  Volume 6 contains pieces with
solo wind instruments (flute, bass sax, etc.) which are ok, and volume 10
contains a couple of really screechy pieces for oboe and MIDI horn which
spoil the album for me.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Caleb T. Deupree" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Dave Douglas
Date: 30 Sep 1998 22:33:09 -0400

At 07:08 PM 9/30/98 -0700, Corey Marc Fogel wrote:
>
>On Wed, 30 Sep 1998 [e-mail] wrote:
>
>> I'd like any thoughts and recommendations on Dave Douglas' cds. I have
>> Masada 8 and 9, Five (with the string group) and amazing Tiny Bell's
>> Live in Europe.
>
>Sanctuary, Stargazer, and In Our Lifetime are essential. ESSENTIAL!

Second the recommendation on Sanctuary, a 2-cd set on Avant, two sessions
recorded live at the Knit (no audience noise at all, though).  It's two
quartets, each with trumpet, sampler and bass, plus Chris Speed on sax and
Dougie Brown on drums.  Each CD is a continuous piece of music, ranging
through many different moods and musics.  Fabulous, very strong stuff.


--
Caleb Deupree
[e-mail]

Computers are useless; they can only give you answers
-- Pablo Picasso

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Gabriela (Warning!! Non-Zorn Content!!)
Date: 01 Oct 1998 00:19:05 -0400

[e-mail] wrote:

> I picked up a CD by the guitarist/vocalist Gabriela yesterday from a cheapie
> bin, mainly because of the musicians in support on the CD.  They include Bill
> Frisell  [snip]  Can anyone give me more info on Gabriela and her
> association with these musicians?

I hope it's not too much of a let-down, but the rather mundane connection is that
Argentinian vocalist Gabriela and Bill Frisell share the same management company,
Songline / Tone Field (no relation to the Songlines recording label).  There's
more info and sound bites (the one I downloaded sounded distinctly Frisellian in
tone) at http://www.songtone.com/Artists/Gabriela/
and if you poke around a bit there's info about Bill on the same site.

Steve Smith
[e-mail]


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Elvis C., Burt B., and... Bill Frisell?
Date: 01 Oct 1998 00:39:38 -0400

While checking into the straight dope on Gabriela earlier tonight, I
stumbled across the following news of Bill Frisell which, oddly enough,
ties into the Elvis Costello / Burt Bacharach thread that's been working
its way through the Zornlist lately.

<< For those who have been wondering when Bill Frisell was going to make
an appearance in their city anytime soon, we here at Songline / Tone
Field, wanted to let you know that he has taken this year "off" from
touring and spent the last 6 months (and will spend the next 5 or 6) in
a state of hyper productivity.  Some of the results of that activity can
be heard on the upcoming (next year) Elvis Costello - Burt Bacharach CD
on the jazz label Verve which features Frisell's arrangements of the
same 12 tunes Elvis and Burt have recorded together on their pop record
for Mercury. The Verve record is produced by Lee Townsend and features
Bill on guitar, Viktor Krauss on bass, Brian Blade on drums and a horn
section comprised of Curtis Fowlkes on trombone, Ron Miles on trumpet,
Don Byron on clarinet and Billy Drewes on saxophone. There's rumor that
some pretty big name vocalists may contribute their talents to a couple
of the tunes, but the cat isn't out of the bag on that just yet. Both
records are due to be released in early 1999.>>

There's a bit more intriguing news about Bill Frisell, including some
word about his next Nonesuch project (not the current release with Fred
Hersch) at...
http://www.songtone.com/News/

Steve Smith
[e-mail]


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From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Don Cherry question...
Date: 01 Oct 1998 00:57:21 -0400

Adam MacGregor wrote:

> Did Cherry not contribute the soundtrack for Jodorowsky's "The Holy Mountain?"
> I seem to remember it being in a very eastern musical vein...excellent though...

Only quasi-relatedly: A while back, Ornette Coleman did the soundtrack
a movie named "Box Office". After reading a review of it in Variety
when it played a film festival or something, I haven't heard anything
about it. imdb.com doesn't seem to list it. Did I hallucinate its
existence? Is the movie or soundtrack available anywhere?

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