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Internet Message Format | 1998-08-31 | 487KB

From: "Felix" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Filmworks
Date: 01 Aug 1998 22:35:54 +0200

I just got my first Filmwork, the very first tome and I love it! It's really
good to hear a fresh zorn again, after spending so much time with his more
experimental/improv/ambient stuff. Does the quality increase cronologically
or is it random? Which would be the best one to buy next?

Thanks
Felix
[e-mail]


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From: Brian Olewnick <[e-mail]>
Subject: Recent Goodies
Date: 01 Aug 1998 19:52:55 -0400

Some items, new and old, that have made their way into my house this
past week:

John French        O Solo Drumbo        Avant

Strange record; probably the first solo drum record I can remember that
comes so much from a rockish perspective. Some of the pieces sound like
simply the drum tracks to CB songs (which apparently they are), others
are elaborated on a bit, often very imaginatively, but we're in a
different musical universe from Milford Graves or Jerome Cooper. French
still has a low, thick tone (sounds like he's playing with legs of
lamb), but sometimes seems to start off on a nice riff only to lose
track halfway through the piece. Still, not bad. Strange liners, where
French alternates between self-deprecation and childishness.

Hasidic New Wave    Jews and the Abstract Truth    KFW

More rousing wedding music, etc from Frank London and crew. Nothing
groundbreaking, but no complaints either--good stuff in the same vein as
"The Schvitz".

AMM        The Inexhaustible Document    Matchless

Continuing on in my belated appreciation of this group. Great music,
different from anyone else's, but I imagine most z-listers with interest
in AMM have had this for some time. I've got this and 'Newfoundland';
any recs on which one to pick up next?

Liu Sola        Haunts            Also

Pretty nice album from this Chinese vocalist/pianist (w/ Fernando
Saunders, Amina Claudine Myers, Pheroan Ak Laff and Chieli Minucci).
Stylistically about halfway between her 'Blues from the East' and her
duo with Wu Man on Avant, this contains some very enjoyable, hypnotic
pieces and restrained, sensitive vocal work. BTW, list price is
apparently $10 for some reason.

La Banda        La Banda        Enja

Hmmm...I was _really_ looking forward to this 2CD set, and now I'm not
so sure. La Banda is a version of a type of village wind ensemble
popular (for about 200 years) in much of Italy. This group is 36 pieces
(33 winds--including about a dozen clarinets!--) and 3 percussion,
joined, for the second disc, by Willem Breuker, Pino Minafra, Gianluigi
Trovesi and several others. The first disc consists of standard banda
repertoire, which is to say instrumental versions of opera warhorses
with fluegelhorns taking the vocal parts. If you listen to this one way,
you have simply an equivalent to your generic Pops concert. I find it
more profitable to think of it as some field recording done in a remote
Italian village, with the local band playing "exotic" ethnic standards,
but, admittedly, that's kinda hard. The second disc has new pieces by
Breuker, tubaist Michel Godard and, the highlight, Bruno Tommaso's neat
arrangement of a bunch of Nino Rota tunes. Both Godard's and Breuker's
works struck me as so-so; some nice moments breaking up some ponderous
ones. Good idea, one that I'd like to see developed, but this first
venture is only partially successful.

Items I saw but didn't pick up:

Cecil Taylor        The Tree of Life (?)        FMP
  "     "          (cd release of the Nuits de la
            Fondation Maeght)
Eberhard Blum        Japanese Flute Music        Hat [now]

Anyone?

Also, caught Joey Baron (w/ Eskelin and Roseman) at Tonic. Wonderful
set! Baron amazes me more and more each time I hear him. I'm beginning
to (cautiously!) place him in the line from Roach to Blackwell to McCall
as far as pure musicality and inventivenes goes (not to mention
percussive excitement and joy).

Brian Olewnick

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From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: AMM (was: Recent Goodies)
Date: 01 Aug 1998 21:19:10 EDT


In a message dated 8/1/98 7:57:12 PM, [e-mail] wrote:

<<AMM        The Inexhaustible Document    Matchless

Continuing on in my belated appreciation of this group. Great music,
different from anyone else's, but I imagine most z-listers with interest
in AMM have had this for some time. I've got this and 'Newfoundland';
any recs on which one to pick up next? >>

I'd say The Nameless Uncarved Block or LIve In Allentown, both of which are
also later recordings, in their somewhat more mellow mode. AMMusic 1966 and
The Crypt, along with the first disc of Laminal, are their only recordings
thus far released from the sixties and tend more toward a louder, sometimes
noise-based, "rock" mode. Combine and Laminates and Generative Themes are also
superb.

All that being said, you really can't go too wrong with any of those seven I
just mentioned (or the two Brian already has). The only ones I don't think are
essential are the recent one on PSF, the ECM one (just Rowe and Prevost; nice
record, but not really an AMM record), To Hear And Back Again (which is just
Lou Gare and Prevost and is the most jazz-influenced of their records), and
the last disc of Laminal (a 1994 concert from Context, the only time (!)
they've played New York to date. I was at this show and wasn't that impressed
then either.) The first two discs of Laminal are eye-opening, though, and it's
a good way to see how they've involved. I haven't heard the most recent one,
Before Driving To The Chapel..., quite enough to know where it fits in.

Every record you hear of AMM helps you to understand the ones you've heard
before. I think of it as one long thirty year improvisation that we are
afforded occasional glimpses into through records.

If I was pressed to name my favorite band in the world now, I think it would
be AMM.

Jon


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From: [e-mail] (Chris Genzel)
Subject: Carpenter's Dark Star
Date: 02 Aug 1998 03:21:41 +0200


 Hi all,

 here's one for you experts:

 In John Carpenter's "Dark Star", there's a track the astronauts are listening
 (well, sort of) to called "When Twilight Falls On NGC 891", by some Martin
 Segundo (?). While I think these names are wrong, the track (sounds somewhat
 jazzy) doesn't sound like it was made by Carpenter. Can anybody fill me in?

 Kind regards,
 - Chris.

 ---------------------------------------------
 *    Chris Genzel --- [e-mail]    *
 * Homepage & Herbie Hancock discography at: *
 *    http://home.t-online.de/home/stamil/   *
 ---------------------------------------------


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From: [e-mail] (Caleb Deupree)
Subject: Re: Filmworks
Date: 02 Aug 1998 03:33:15 -0400

At 10:35 PM 8/1/98 +0200, Felix wrote:
>I just got my first Filmwork, the very first tome and I love it! It's really
>good to hear a fresh zorn again, after spending so much time with his more
>experimental/improv/ambient stuff. Does the quality increase cronologically
>or is it random? Which would be the best one to buy next?

I've got one, two, four and seven.  Two is all for one film, so it has a
consistency that the others don't, all small combo stuff like much of one.
Seven is the classic Cynical Hysterie Hour, music for Japanese cartoons.
Excellent, but very short.  Four contains five very different pieces of
music from five different films, and includes a great ambient blues piece
and a wild sampler piece, among others.  I like them all, and based on
these four find the filmworks series one of JZ's most consistently
imaginative collections.

Eight, the newest, is another of the Masada variations, and is reputed to
be excellent as well.

The Tzadik web site contains personnel and more detailed track information
for all of the above.


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From: Peter Gannushkin <[e-mail]>
Subject: Desert In Hand by Shakushain
Date: 02 Aug 1998 13:56:59 +0400

Hello Zorn-list,

I found "Desert In Hand" by Shakushain on Music Boulevard web-site.
They said that it is Knitting Factory CD. But there is no any
information on KFW site. Does anybody knows anything about this CD?

Best regards,
Peter Gannushkin
e-mail: [e-mail]
URL: http://www.jazz.ru/



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From: Brian Olewnick <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: AMM (was: Recent Goodies)
Date: 02 Aug 1998 09:03:18 -0400

[e-mail] wrote:
> Every record you hear of AMM helps you to understand the ones you've heard
> before. I think of it as one long thirty year improvisation that we are
> afforded occasional glimpses into through records.
>
> If I was pressed to name my favorite band in the world now, I think it would
> be AMM.

Thanks for the recommendations and insight, Jon. Perhaps you or someone
else could shed some light on something I've been wondering about re:
AMM. One of my first impressions was the "landscape" quality of their
sound, unique in that they seem to have actualized what many just talk
about: paying equal (and extreme) attention to each sound and giving
each sound equal (and extreme!) importance. I visualize ultra-high
resolution photographs of scenes without obvious central focus (I
hesitantly proffer Ansel Adams, without the picturesqueness). This is a
similar sense I've gotten over the years from Morton Feldman, though
MF's sound is certainly more ethereal and AMM's grainier, for me, they
inhabit a related sound-space. So my question: I know Tilbury is a big
proponent of Feldman, having written on him and recorded his work. Was
AMM's work changed significantly, possibly towards a "smoother"
(relative term, here), more tonal (in a Feldmanesque manner) aspect when
Tilbury joined the group? Have the original members acknowledged
indebtedness to MF and the NY School? I could be totally off base, but
AMM (in my limited exposure) seems a direct descendant of this approach,
though obviously on an improvisatory tack.

I could, of course, simply go out and buy the discs and hear for myself,
but I have to give the old wallet a breather once in a while.

Thanks,

Brian Olewnick

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From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: AMM (was: Recent Goodies)
Date: 02 Aug 1998 10:17:12 EDT


In a message dated 8/2/98 9:06:15 AM, [e-mail] wrote:

<<So my question: I know Tilbury is a big
proponent of Feldman, having written on him and recorded his work. Was
AMM's work changed significantly, possibly towards a "smoother"
(relative term, here), more tonal (in a Feldmanesque manner) aspect when
Tilbury joined the group? Have the original members acknowledged
indebtedness to MF and the NY School? I could be totally off base, but
AMM (in my limited exposure) seems a direct descendant of this approach,
though obviously on an improvisatory tack. >>

Good question. I know that Christian Wolff was a member of AMM in 1968,
although his presence was not captured on record. Prevost says in his book No
Sound Is Innocent, "Evan Parker and Christian Wolff are the two musicians
outside of the immediate circle of AMM with whom an indefinable rapport is
felt-and a confidence that the AMM aesthetic would be pursued and respected."
That aside, I would say that the answer to your question is that Tilbury is
obviously quite influenced by MF and the NY School, and thus, any AMM records
that he's on tend to move more in that direction, including the two that you
have. Keith Rowe and Eddie Prevost are the heart of the band, however, and I'd
say pinning down their influences is a lot tougher. Rowe was a member of Mike
Westbrook's band in the mid-sixties and Prevost played in a hard-bop quintet,
but it seems to me like there are very few remnants of these formative
influences evident on record. If you check out The Crypt, you won't hear much
Feldman there, closer to a proto-Sonic Youth or Merzbow at times.

Hope that helps,
Jon

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From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: More AMM
Date: 02 Aug 1998 10:34:48 EDT

poking around a little more in Prevost's book, I find:

"In 1965 not only were Cage's ideas unknown to AMM, but most of the musicians
had only the vaguest idea who he was! In an interview I was asked about Cage's
influence, and simply assumed he was a drummer I hadn't heard of. Awareness
arrived with Cardew." (Cornelius Cardew was a member of AMM for a while early
on also.)

also, something I found enlightening.

"AMM, especially in Rowe's contribution, is indebted to Jackson Pollock. Even
the scene of execution is similar, with Rowe adjusting the basic canvas (in
his case laying the guitar flat on its back) to enable certain 'actions' to be
carried out, to let dribbles of sound meander, collect in drowning pools of
volume or run off the edges into congealed silences. This manner of working-
seen/heard in Tilbury's exploitation of the piano stool or in letting bottles
slowly oscillate, vibrated by, and in turn vibrating, the piano strings; or in
Lawrence Sheaff's use of toys and humming tops; or in my own 'dish gong' and
cymbal quasi-Doppler effects, the scratching, scraping and bowings and the
over-spped drumming, designed to fall, through an impossible momentum, into
chaotic unknowable sequences.-became common practice applied by all
AMMmusicians individually."

anyway, there's more in the book about their influences, including Taoism, but
if you're that interested, you should probably pick up a copy. Other Music
probably still stocks it. it's hard going, but very worthwhile.

Jon

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From: Seth Gordon <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Dark Star
Date: 02 Aug 1998 11:22:59 PDT

Sorry, can't remember which list it was on where someone asked about
this... so forgive the intrusion if it wasn't here, but:
Martin Segundo was a psuedonym for John Carpenter. It's a reference to
something, but I can't remember what. It means something along the lines of
"Martin 2" (it's literal translation, I think)- but what "Martin 1" was I
can't for the life of me think of just now...

    - Seth

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From: Brian Olewnick <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: More AMM
Date: 02 Aug 1998 19:46:49 -0400

[e-mail] wrote:

> Awareness arrived with Cardew." (Cornelius Cardew was a member of AMM for     > a while early on also.)

Actually, something else I saw at Other Music on vinyl that I almost
picked up, was Cardew's record on Matchless called something
approximating "For Trautmann" (I know that's not it, but it's not
ridiculously off!). Apparently music at least somewhat based on themes
from Irish worker's songs? Know of it?

> "AMM, especially in Rowe's contribution, is indebted to Jackson Pollock. Even
> the scene of execution is similar, with Rowe adjusting the basic canvas (in
> his case laying the guitar flat on its back) to enable certain 'actions' to be
> carried out, to let dribbles of sound meander, collect in drowning pools of
> volume or run off the edges into congealed silences.

Grrrr...A longstanding pet peeve of mine is the comparison of this or
that new music to Pollack specifically or, often, Abstract Expressionism
generally. I know it's tough to gainsay Prevost here, or Feldman vis a
vis Philip Guston, but I can't help but think that these connections are
often leaped at by musicians who feel a need to equate their "new" form
to whatever happens to be "new" in an adjacent field, no matter how,
IMHO, misaligned they are. Now I happen to hold the (probable minority)
opinion that Pollack was a piss-poor painter (ahhh, let's say Borah
Bergman to de Kooning's Cecil Taylor), and I think Prevost's comparison
above (flat canvas to flat guitar) is trivial but, in any case, there
are plenty of other recent painters whose work, again IMHO, resonates
far more sympathetically with AMM's creations than Pollack's (the sand
paintings of Antonio Tapies spring instantly to mind; Klein, Reinhart
and Stella also seem more to the point; don't even get me started on
someone like Vermeer! As to Feldman, Agnes Martin seems far more in sync
with him than Guston, but maybe that's just me). I think Pollack's name
often serves as a catch-all for people to cite when they don't really
know the field; this makes for facile comparisons that do neither
art-form justice.

Forgive the rant; it's just not too often I get to spout off about
painting on this list....gotta take advantage of those rare
opportunities!

Brian Olewnick

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From: [e-mail] (Matthew Colonnese)
Subject: Re: More AMM
Date: 02 Aug 1998 22:45:48 -0400 (EDT)

), and I think Prevost's comparison
>above (flat canvas to flat guitar) is trivial but, in any case, there
>are plenty of other recent painters whose work, again IMHO, resonates
>far more sympathetically with AMM's creations than Pollack's (the sand
>paintings of Antonio Tapies spring instantly to mind; Klein, Reinhart
>and Stella also seem more to the point

You definately hear something different in AMM or see something different
in Reinhart or Stella (I know little of the others) than me.  Pollack seems
an appropriate, if obvious and not optimal, choice to compare the more
"slash and burn" aestetics of early AMM with.  DeKooning's maintenance of
images doesn't fit AMM's absolute lack of melody/harmony; perhaps
Ayler=DeKooning, AMM=Pollack.
Although his later, more abstract work could be compared to 80s/90s AMM.
        As for Reinhart, I would really hate to believe that AMM are
playing for the same reason he painted:  to create art objects with no
purpose other than pure art objects (at least that's my understanding of
his philosospy).  The simple reliance on imporvisation invalidates this
connection, and allies them with more "gestural" schools of thought.  Also
I hear an attempt at communication and expression in AMM:  an invitation
despite obvious initial alien nature of the sound.  I get no feeling like
that from Stella or Reinhart, and from Reinhart writing, at least, I don't
get the impression I'm missing anything.  Having said all that, though, if
you have just heard the 90s material I can see where a minimalist (art not
music) connection might come from.

In any case, wouldn't the incorporation of the transistor radios link AMM
to Jasper Johns or Robert Rauchenburg?  These are the two I've certainly
associated them with, esspessially because of the Cage connection with
Rauchenburg

Sorry if my ad hoc art history knowledge is entirely specious, as well as
for the certain misspellings of the names

matt




; don't even get me started on
>someone like Vermeer! As to Feldman, Agnes Martin seems far more in sync
>with him than Guston, but maybe that's just me). I think Pollack's name
>often serves as a catch-all for people to cite when they don't really
>know the field; this makes for facile comparisons that do neither
>art-form justice.
>
>Forgive the rant; it's just not too often I get to spout off about
>painting on this list....gotta take advantage of those rare
>opportunities!
>
>Brian Olewnick
>
>-


------
"Finally, a thing-a-ma-giggy that would bring people together...even if it
kept them apart, spatially."



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From: <[e-mail]>
Subject:  Re: More AMM
Date: 02 Aug 1998 22:58:32 EDT


In a message dated 8/2/98 7:49:43 PM, you wrote:

<<Grrrr...A longstanding pet peeve of mine is the comparison of this or
that new music to Pollack specifically or, often, Abstract Expressionism
generally.>>

Brian, I certainly don't know as much about painters as you, and it seems like
neither does Prevost. But your question was what influenced him (and AMM), and
he says Pollock, among other people. Understand that Prevost is referring to
initial influences here; I think that AMM has tried to consciously steer clear
of outside influences as much as possible since their inception. I understand
that you're venting a bit here, but it seems somewhat misplaced. Now if it was
a critic comparing AMM to Pollock, that's entirely different.

I'm psyched to go check out some de Kooning, though.

Jon

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From:    William York <[e-mail]>
Subject: more AMM and other recent stuff
Date: 02 Aug 1998 23:44:37 -0400 (EDT)

On the topic of AMM, I just got _Live in Allentown_, my first, and was
actually playing it on the air at the radio station when I checked my
messages and saw all of the discuusion, strange coincidence.  Anyway this
CD has lots of quiet spots and the wide dynamic range (and length) make it
hard to listen to, really a headphones CD, but it lives up to all the
praise I had heard.  I was surprised to hear the tonal and almost pretty
piano parts.  Does anyone know if they start completely from a blank page
when playing, because the intro avoids the usual quiet pecking and testing
out I find annoying in so many improv performances.

Also, I finally got around to getting Hans Reichel _Death of the Rare Bird
Ymir_ which is also very interesting, like alien folk guitar.

More stuff:

Tim Berne + Michael Formanek _Ornery People_ This doesn't have the energy
of the Bloodcount CDs but after getting used to that I liked it a lot.
Their approach to melody/harmony is unique, it amazes me how they can play
such complex stuff and have it come across on such a direct level.

Microscopic Septet -Offbeat Glory_ and Philip Johnston _Normalology_ I
don't usually like stuff this happy but they write some great tunes and
its really fun to listen to (Zorn played in the Micros in 1983 but didn't
record with them)

Enough for now I guess,

William York


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From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: E#, S. Cain, P. Jones gig
Date: 03 Aug 1998 00:53:47 EDT

Hello,
Did anyone catch the recent gig at Irving Plaza with Elliott Sharp, Sim Cain
and Percy Jones??  If so, please tell me about it.  And I know its a long
shot, but if anyone has, or can get a recording of that gig, please email me!!
I'm sure I have something to offer in trade. Thanks/
Jody McAllister

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Tipographica question
Date: 03 Aug 1998 12:27:20 +0200

Hello,
I've heard somewhere about CD:
Tipographica+friends: "Jazz - Bacharach"

Does it really exist? Does anybody own any of that?
There is nothing about it on Tipographica web site.

http://www.imasy.or.jp/~mizutani/files_e/tipo.html

Thanks for any info.
Marcin

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From: Bob Kowalski <[e-mail]>
Subject: motian plays weil...
Date: 03 Aug 1998 10:35:41 -0400

For the patient zornster looking for info on Motian's take on Weil, a
belated reply :
Tethered Moon (Verve jMT, 697 124 059-2, 1994) Paul Motian, Masabum
Kikuchi and Gary Peacock play Kut Weil.
Its worth seeking out...enjoy.

happy listening

Bob

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From: [e-mail] (Caleb Deupree)
Subject: e# and uitti
Date: 03 Aug 1998 10:44:20 -0400

The latest Anomalous Records update contains a free improv between
Elliot Sharp and Frances-Marie Uitti (the cellist who uses two bows --
she has a fabulous and eerie album on BVHaast).  Has anyone either
heard this, or heard these two live?  I'm sort of interested, but am
having a hard time picturing what this would sound like.

---
Caleb T. Deupree
;; Opinions...  funny thing about opinions, they can change.

Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers.
(Pablo Picasso)


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From: Jan-Wen Lu <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Tipographica question
Date: 03 Aug 1998 23:19:25 +0800


--------------A1F83ACEF2F33C1936BE4B49
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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> Hello,
> I've heard somewhere about CD:
> Tipographica+friends: "Jazz - Bacharach"
>
> Does it really exist? Does anybody own any of that?
> There is nothing about it on Tipographica web site.
>
> http://www.imasy.or.jp/~mizutani/files_e/tipo.html
>
> Thanks for any info.
> Marcin
>

Yes, I have one copy of this CD. In fact, it's titled Alfie-Jazz
Bacharach. Not a Tipographica album. The music is played by a quartet
with three members of Tipographica(Tsuneo Imahori,Hiroaki Mizutani and
Akira Sotoyama) and a piano player(Satoru Shionoya). They play famous
Bacharach tunes.

Released in late '96 by Pony Canyon Records. Item no. PCCR-00250.



Jan-Wen Lu

P.S. Does any have the new CD of Hiroaki Mizutani's new project
"LowBlow"? Any
       commendation on it?


--------------A1F83ACEF2F33C1936BE4B49
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML>

<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>Hello,
<BR>I've heard somewhere about CD:
<BR>Tipographica+friends: "Jazz - Bacharach"<FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1></FONT></FONT>

<P>Does it really exist? Does anybody own any of that?
<BR>There is nothing about it on Tipographica web site.

<P><A HREF="http://www.imasy.or.jp/~mizutani/files_e/tipo.html">http://www.imasy.or.jp/~mizutani/files_e/tipo.html</A>

<P>Thanks for any info.
<BR>Marcin
<BR> </BLOCKQUOTE>
<FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>Yes, I have one copy of this
CD. In fact, it's titled Alfie-Jazz Bacharach. Not a Tipographica album.
The music is played by a quartet with three members of Tipographica(Tsuneo
Imahori,</FONT></FONT><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>Hiroaki
Mizutani and Akira Sotoyama) and a piano player(Satoru Shionoya). They
play famous Bacharach tunes.</FONT></FONT><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1></FONT></FONT>

<P><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>Released in late '96 by Pony
Canyon Records. Item no. PCCR-00250.</FONT></FONT>
<BR><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1></FONT></FONT>
<BR><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1></FONT></FONT> <FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1></FONT></FONT>

<P><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>Jan-Wen Lu</FONT></FONT><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1></FONT></FONT>

<P><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>P.S. Does any have the new
CD of Hiroaki Mizutani's new project "LowBlow"? Any</FONT></FONT>
<BR><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>
commendation on it?</FONT></FONT>
<BR>  </HTML>

--------------A1F83ACEF2F33C1936BE4B49--


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From: Brent Burton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Mori/Ribot/Coleman/Lindsay/Kang + Oval
Date: 03 Aug 1998 11:47:15 -0400 (EDT)

On Thu, 30 Jul 1998, Felix wrote:

> One question though: I have the opportunity to see Ikue Mori, Marc Ribot,
> Anthony Coleman, Arto Lindsay, some person named Kang and something named
> Oval all together. Questions: Who is Kang and Oval? Has anyone ever heard
> this set? If so, how good is it?

oval is a german guy named markus popp.  oval creates music by painting
on/damaging cds, then sampling the resulting clicks and skips.  popp then
arranges the sampled sounds into song structures.  very mesmerizing if
you're acclimated to sparse, damaged electronic sounds.

b

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From: Yves Dewulf <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Mori/Ribot/Coleman/Lindsay/Kang + Oval
Date: 03 Aug 1998 18:11:12 +0200


>oval is a german guy named markus popp.  oval creates music by painting
>on/damaging cds, then sampling the resulting clicks and skips.  popp then
>arranges the sampled sounds into song structures.  very mesmerizing if
>you're acclimated to sparse, damaged electronic sounds.

 I believe Oval used to be a duo, but now only Popp remains.
 He also designed some interactive software to compose with/modify
 these samples in real-time.
 I saw concert by Oval about half a year ago and the performance consisted
 of Popp sitting behind his laptop, quietly moving his mouse
 to adjust some parameters (for over an hour). The music was very
 ambient (not especially dark or extreme experimental),
 not unlike some Eno-stuff (who's also dealing
 with music generating software nowadays.)

 YVes

   -


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: e# and uitti
Date: 03 Aug 1998 12:54:47 -0400 (EDT)

The new (August) The Wire gives the disk a bad review. Take that for what
you wish. And/or check it out to see what the reviewer says.

Ken Waxman
[e-mail]



On Mon, 3 Aug 1998, Caleb Deupree wrote:

> The latest Anomalous Records update contains a free improv between
> Elliot Sharp and Frances-Marie Uitti (the cellist who uses two bows --
> she has a fabulous and eerie album on BVHaast).  Has anyone either
> heard this, or heard these two live?  I'm sort of interested, but am
> having a hard time picturing what this would sound like.
>
> ---
> Caleb T. Deupree
> ;; Opinions...  funny thing about opinions, they can change.
>
> Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers.
> (Pablo Picasso)
>
>
> -
>
>

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joe Germuska <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Seattle based people - HELP others delete this message
Date: 03 Aug 1998 12:02:07 -0500

Everyone interested in the Pacific Northwest improv scene should check out
the hard-working suckers at the tentacle:

>Visit the Tentacle Web site at http://www.tentacle.org for up-to-the-minute
>news and concert listings and comprehensive directories of Northwest labels,
>music sources, radio programs, and links to Northwest creative musicians'
>home pages.

And if you want a more interactive forum, check out the pnw-improv list
<http://www.wnur.org/lists/pnw-improv/>

Joe

--
* Joe Germuska    {[e-mail]} |    Learning Technologies Group
<http://www.nwu.edu/people/j-germuska> |      Northwestern University
"It would be equally incorrect to assume that 'magic', however defined,
    is not a kind of technology."  - George Lewis (composer/trombonist)


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Archery 2XLP for sale
Date: 03 Aug 1998 14:35:46 EDT

Hello,

I hope no one minds that I am posting this here...

I want to sell my copy of the Archery 2XLP set. If you are seriously
intersted, please e-mail me privately. Anyone reading this knows that this is
a rare piece so please send serious offers only. Thanks much.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Lang Thompson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Option Magazine
Date: 03 Aug 1998 19:19:58 -0400

Since this ties into an earlier thread:  I've just received word that
Option Magazine is temporarily suspending publication.  The issue that's
been on stands for a month is the last one; the Sept issue was cancelled.
According to the notification, the main reason for the suspension is to
figure out where  Option should be going, how much should be print or
online, how the spinoff magazines should work, etc.  The publisher seemed
quite confident that it would start up later but you never know with these
things.  Still, if you ever felt like suggesting things that need to be
covered or done differently, now would be the best time.

LT
Lang Thompson
http://www.tcf.ua.edu/wlt4

New at the Funhouse website:  Alternate 100 American
Films, Anthology of American Folk Music, Godzilla Bites!

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Option Magazine
Date: 03 Aug 1998 16:23:32 -0700


On Mon, 03 Aug 1998 19:19:58 -0400  Lang Thompson wrote:
>
> Since this ties into an earlier thread:  I've just received word that
> Option Magazine is temporarily suspending publication.  The issue that's
> been on stands for a month is the last one; the Sept issue was cancelled.
> According to the notification, the main reason for the suspension is to
> figure out where  Option should be going, how much should be print or
> online, how the spinoff magazines should work, etc.  The publisher seemed
> quite confident that it would start up later but you never know with these
                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I got the impression that he was saying that just to be sure that the
creditors would not feel liberated from their obligation of paying their
bills :-). If you take this into account, I think the magazine of over...

> things.  Still, if you ever felt like suggesting things that need to be
> covered or done differently, now would be the best time.

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (bob burnett)
Subject: AMM
Date: 03 Aug 1998 22:28:18 -0400

I've been following the discussion about AMM and am interested in finding
out about the group.  Somehow my net has completely missed them.  Any
background or cd suggestions appreciated.

Thanks

Bob
[e-mail]



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Herb Levy <[e-mail]>
Subject:  Re: More AMM
Date: 03 Aug 1998 21:41:32 -0800

As usual, probably late 'cause I'm on digest, but

Brian Olewnick <[e-mail]> wrote:

>Grrrr...A longstanding pet peeve of mine is the comparison of this or
>that new music to Pollack specifically or, often, Abstract Expressionism
>generally. I know it's tough to gainsay Prevost here, or Feldman vis a
>vis Philip Guston, but I can't help but think that these connections are
>often leaped at by musicians who feel a need to equate their "new" form
>to whatever happens to be "new" in an adjacent field, no matter how,
>IMHO, misaligned they are. Now I happen to hold the (probable minority)
>opinion that Pollack was a piss-poor painter (ahhh, let's say Borah
>Bergman to de Kooning's Cecil Taylor), and I think Prevost's comparison
>above (flat canvas to flat guitar) is trivial but, in any case, there
>are plenty of other recent painters whose work, again IMHO, resonates
>far more sympathetically with AMM's creations than Pollack's (the sand
>paintings of Antonio Tapies spring instantly to mind; Klein, Reinhart
>and Stella also seem more to the point; don't even get me started on
>someone like Vermeer! As to Feldman, Agnes Martin seems far more in sync
>with him than Guston, but maybe that's just me). I think Pollack's name
>often serves as a catch-all for people to cite when they don't really
>know the field; this makes for facile comparisons that do neither
>art-form justice.

Yeah, it's common for analogies between artistic media to be somewhat over
the top and/or wrong-headed & yeah, Pollack serves more often as poster boy
for AbExp than he might should ought to.

I think though, from reading Feldman's various collected writings that he
was more generally interested in his work's similarities to visual art in
general, that the enlarged time frame he used was to be analogous to how
one experiences a work of visual art when viewing it over time.  The
dedication to Guston, was more due to the friendship between the two men
than any specific parallels between the works as such.

Getting back to the ostensible subject line of the thread, in addition to
the forementioned Christian Wolff connection to AMM, Cornelius Cardew had
lots of experience working & performing with several folks from the "NY
School" (Cage, Tudor, etc), in his pre-Maoist phase.

Bests,

Herb


Herb Levy
[e-mail]



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Yves Dewulf <[e-mail]>
Subject: Marclay
Date: 04 Aug 1998 12:00:25 +0200


I was recently in the museum of fine arts of Geneva and was
amazed to find an installation by Christian Marclay between
mummies en remnants of medieval castles.
The installation consisted of a grand piano with some mirrors
inside and won an important price for contemporary art in
Switzerland. (the title was something like "Piano 1994").
My Question: Is this the same Marclay we all know ?

YVes



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Matthew Ross Davis <[e-mail]>
Subject: Staley, Hirsch, Raydeeoh
Date: 04 Aug 1998 08:46:15 -0400 (EDT)

Some of you might be familiar with the Jim Staley albums on which Zorn and
friends play. I'm particularly interested in finding out more about Shelley
Hirsch; anyone have any clues as to what her other projects are?

On another note, I should mention that I have a new show over at WMUC Radio in
College Park, MD. I do all new/experimental/avant-garde music, and this summer
(and hopefully this fall) the time is on Mondays from noon to 3pm. The reason I
can announce this on a mailing list (of all things) is that we have a RealAudio
feed from the station, so you can listen to my show from anywhere in the world!
When the time is right (mondays, 12-3), go to http://www.wmuc.umd.edu and
follow the links to the RealAudio feed.

If you're interested in sending me any recordings or getting our radio station
on your mailing list for new promos, please email me privately and I'll give
you our address.

m

| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | m - a - t - t - h - e - w | r - o - s - s | d - a - v - i - s | |
| | http://www.artswire.org/mrd | | | | | | | UMD school of music | |
| | m-e-t-a-t-r-o-n p-r-e-s-s | | | http://www.artswire.org/comma | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Perfect Sound Forever <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: E#, S. Cain, P. Jones gig
Date: 04 Aug 1998 09:10:18 -0400

> On Mon, 3 Aug 1998 00:53:47 EDT, [e-mail] sed
>
> Did anyone catch the recent gig at Irving Plaza with Elliott Sharp, Sim Cain
> and Percy Jones??  If so, please tell me about it.  And I know its a long
> shot, but if anyone has, or can get a recording of that gig, please email me!!
> I'm sure I have something to offer in trade. Thanks
>
Not too far fetched.  There was at least one crew that night filming the Plastic People.  It looked like the cameras were set up
and maybe on when Elliott did his set (which was excellent, by the way).  So... who knows, maybe we'll see a video of this!

Jason
--
Perfect Sound Forever
online music magazine
[e-mail]
http://www.furious.com/perfect



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Marclay
Date: 04 Aug 1998 08:01:52 -0700


On Tue, 4 Aug 1998 12:00:25 +0200  Yves Dewulf wrote:
>
>
> I was recently in the museum of fine arts of Geneva and was
> amazed to find an installation by Christian Marclay between
> mummies en remnants of medieval castles.
> The installation consisted of a grand piano with some mirrors
> inside and won an important price for contemporary art in
> Switzerland. (the title was something like "Piano 1994").
> My Question: Is this the same Marclay we all know ?

Sure. Now you understand why he was "discographically" discreet all these
past years.

    Patrice.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Corey Marc Fogel <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Marclay
Date: 04 Aug 1998 08:19:18 -0700 (MST)



On Tue, 4 Aug 1998, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:

> On Tue, 4 Aug 1998 12:00:25 +0200  Yves Dewulf wrote:

> > The installation consisted of a grand piano with some mirrors
> > inside and won an important price for contemporary art in
> > Switzerland. (the title was something like "Piano 1994").
> > My Question: Is this the same Marclay we all know ?
>
> Sure. Now you understand why he was "discographically" discreet all these
> past years.

no, I don't understand. please explain.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Marclay
Date: 04 Aug 1998 08:35:36 -0700


On Tue, 04 Aug 1998 08:19:18 -0700 (MST)  Corey Marc Fogel wrote:
>
>
>
> On Tue, 4 Aug 1998, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:
>
> > Sure. Now you understand why he was "discographically" discreet all these
> > past years.
>
> no, I don't understand. please explain.

I meant that Marclay got more interested by visual art/installations in the
late '80s, to the point that he almost stopped recording. There is a long
hole in his discography, testifying of his other interests.

If you do some search on the web, you will find that he has been quite
active in the art field.

The good thing (for us interested by his music) is that there are signs
(altough tenuous ones...) that he might spend more time with music
performance. I am still curious to know what Asphodel will put out (as you
have noticed, all his "recent" recordings are quite old).

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Brent Burton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: AMM (was: Recent Goodies)
Date: 04 Aug 1998 11:46:35 -0400 (EDT)

On Sat, 1 Aug 1998 [e-mail] wrote:

> All that being said, you really can't go too wrong with any of those seven I
> just mentioned (or the two Brian already has). The only ones I don't think are
> essential are the recent one on PSF, the ECM one (just Rowe and Prevost; nice
> record, but not really an AMM record)

let me add a voice of dissent here.  i'm crazy about "...pueblo colorado,"
the record that rowe and prevost recorded for ecm as amm III.  of course,
i'm listening to it in the context of the late '70s and how prescient this
configuration was in terms of subsequent efforts by sonic youth, storm &
stress, william hooker, gastr del sol, crom-tech, etc.  while certainly
nowhere near the density of of the original incarnation of amm, the ecm
record sort of peels back the curtain on the amm mystique, unveiling a
pronounced jazz debt and a future influence on punk.  just guitar and drums.

b


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Scott Handley" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Marclay
Date: 04 Aug 1998 09:34:41 PDT

 Now you understand why he was "discographically" discreet all these
>past years.
>
>    Patrice.
>

Bruce Gallanter told me, maybe two or three years ago, that Marclay was
having hearing problems...or was this David Shea?  One of the two. I
don't suppose it matters, but does anyone know about this?

--scott


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Joseph S. Zitt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Staley, Hirsch, Raydeeoh
Date: 04 Aug 1998 11:54:40 -0500 (CDT)

On Tue, 4 Aug 1998, Matthew Ross Davis wrote:

> Some of you might be familiar with the Jim Staley albums on which Zorn and
> friends play. I'm particularly interested in finding out more about Shelley
> Hirsch; anyone have any clues as to what her other projects are?

I have several Shelley Hirsch recordings. I'll try to remember to bring
them for you when next we get together. Among them is perhaps her best
known, "O Little Town of East New York" on Tzadik, some collaborations
with David Weinstein, and a quartet gig with David Moss, Anna Homler,
and... uh... someone else.

- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: David Keffer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Recent goodies:  Haino/Hayward/Min
Date: 04 Aug 1998 13:03:04 -0400


Hello Folks on the Zorn-list:

After the Haino/Musica Transonic collaboration
came out in June, there was some discussion about
that not being an essential Haino recording...

Well, the 4 new Haino cds on Tokuma have reached
the U.S. (via Forced Exposure and others).   The
real excitement in this set is Haino's
new band "Aihiyo".  This disc features a voice-guitar/bass/drums
trio covering Japanese folks songs (supposedly).  Anyway,
the disc is definitely a new direction for Haino so fans
should be excited by that.  Moreover, the songs are great and
Haino is in peak form.  If you are thinking about sampling one
of the four cds, the Aihiyo disc is the one to check out first.
Also, there are 2 Fushitsusha discs (I have only listened
to the first so far and it is more in the mellow
Fushitsusha vein, which is cool with me, although I know
some folks are fans of the Fushitsusha density and power.)
One of the 4 new Tokuma cds is Haino solo on voice and Hurdy Gurdy.
(I have no idea why Haino is enamored with calling the instrument
the "Hard-y Guide-y".) but it is one 72 minute monster
drone track, more like the 17 minute hurdy gurdy
track on the cd included with Halana! issue 2.  It
seems to my ear to be less abrasive than the first
Haino hurdy gurdy album on PSF "The 21st Century Hard-y Guide-y
Man".

BTW, a ways back, I raised a question about the availability in
the US of the Charles Hayward/Keiji Haino/Otomo Yoshihide/Tatsuya
Yoshida/Peter Brotzmann release "Double Agent(s) Live in Japan Volume
2" on Locus Solus.  That disc is now out via Wayside, even though
I haven't seen it listed in their on-line catalogs.

One more thing:  The new Min Xiao-Fen cd on AVANT is advertised as:
"Min Xiao-Fen is one of the outstanding pipa virtuosos of our time...
and has developed strong working relationships with composers as diverse
as Chen Yi, Tan Dun, Wadada Leo Smith, Carl Stone, George Lewis and John
Zorn.
This CD features the fruit of these collaborative friendships in seven major
new compositions..."   This blurb is a little misleading since
neither George Lewis nor John Zorn have composed any of the music on the cd.

David K.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: benjamin elliot axelrad <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Staley, Hirsch, Raydeeoh
Date: 04 Aug 1998 12:30:31 -0500 (CDT)

On Tue, 4 Aug 1998, Joseph S. Zitt wrote:

> On Tue, 4 Aug 1998, Matthew Ross Davis wrote:
>
> > Some of you might be familiar with the Jim Staley albums on which Zorn and
> > friends play. I'm particularly interested in finding out more about Shelley
> > Hirsch; anyone have any clues as to what her other projects are?
>
> I have several Shelley Hirsch recordings. I'll try to remember to bring
> them for you when next we get together. Among them is perhaps her best
> known, "O Little Town of East New York" on Tzadik, some collaborations
> with David Weinstein, and a quartet gig with David Moss, Anna Homler,
> and... uh... someone else.

Can anyone recommend The September Band's (Hirsch/Rudiger Carl/Hans
Reichel/???) disc on FMP?

Thanks,
Ben


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Dominique Leone" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Tzadik site
Date: 04 Aug 1998 10:53:04 PDT

If you don't already know, the Tzadik no longer delivers CDs directly
through its website.  I got two CDs from Tzadik, shipped from Knitting
Factory.

Dominique

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Adam MacGregor)
Subject: AMM vs. pollock influence...
Date: 04 Aug 1998 15:34:13 -0400

Well, for what it's worth, I did discover in speaking with Keith Rowe (AMM
guitarist) after a AMM gig in Pittsburgh in 1994 or 95 that he is a painter
by trade and does derive much influence and/or inspiration from painters
rather than other musicians that exploit the prepared instrument technique.
I asked him if he had taken anything from Cage's prepared piano experiments
and incorporated them in his style, and he told me that more or less his
technique finds more of an origin in graphical arts, although i dunno if he
meant abstract expressionism in
particular, but he may just have mentioned Pollock....

He said he dug Shostakovich too...

--adam


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Richard C Williams <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: looking for Kurt Weill material
Date: 29 Jul 1998 17:15:33 -0500

Fritz Feger wrote:

> Which recordings are particularly good, especially - but not restricted to
> - with lyrics (i.e. with vocals)?

I'm rather fond of "Supply and Demand" by Dagmar Krause on Hannibal,
which is a pretty common cut-out bin item. All of the material is either
Brecht/Weill or Brecht/Eisler, and Dagmar sounds much more in her
element than on the Frith/Cutler cmpositions that she's mostly known
for.


Rich



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Mark yer calendars
Date: 04 Aug 1998 16:39:31 -0500


     10/17 at the Knitting Factory

     An improv evening with :

        Glenn Branca
        Rudolph Grey
        Z'ev

     Dust off those earplugs!

     Brian Olewnick



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Coleman Greene <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Tzadik Website
Date: 05 Aug 1998 03:33:41 -0400 (EDT)

Hm, I would present an educated guess, and say its due to Zorn stopping
the realaudio broadcasts of him at the knit, forcing changes to be made,
then moving to greener, if not air-conditioned, pastures.  It is extremely
likely that Zorn wants little or nothing to do w/so called 'knitmedia' anymore.
I don't know how many of you witnessed the Masada show when he went
nuts over them broadcasting to the tap bar, and over the internet, but he
wasn't very pleased.
And realistically, I dont think a great percentage of artists playing in the
main space, had any idea they were being broadcast anywhere but to the tap
bar.

 Expanding the knit is one thing, and the old office is a nice lil space,
but I must say, I was quite turned off by being badgered constantly about
my undying requirement to 'buy a drink ticket'. Turned out my drink cost a
good 4 dollars more than my drink ticket.... Somehow i wasn't suprised

 Anyhow,
 Coleman




On Fri, 31 Jul 1998 14:15:32 UT  [e-mail] wrote:
>
> Anyone know what's up with the Tzadik site?  It hasn't been updated since
like, late May.
> Are they going to keep up with that?

> Does anyone know what's new out there from them?
> What's coming?

Looks like a typical KF behavior: on January 1st everybody decides to get t
heir actstogether and stop messing around, then, after a few weeks/months,
things are stopped without any notice or explanation.

Is it that can't keep any solid staff, and rely too much on kids with short
attention span (or kids than they quickly delude)?

Michael Dorf should know by now that getting a larger space is one thing, but
being able to build and keep a good staff is another. I am seriously wondering
if he has the slightest managerial skill...


        Patrice (appaled by the "news" section on the KF web site).



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:    [e-mail] (Patrick Carey)
Subject: VINYL/CD Sale ...
Date: 05 Aug 1998 09:58:28 -0400

Hi,

I'm having a vinyl sale (a couple CDs too, for right now).
About 30 items.  Instead of cluttering the list with all
the titles, I've placed them (and basic info) at the
following website:

http://www.astro.utoronto.ca/~carey/sofa/sale.html

If you are browser challenged, I can email you the list.
Just let me know.

The list includes, among other things ... _lots_ of Scorn
(some rare), Quoit, Possible 12"s, Pan(a)sonic (limited),
Godflesh, Porter Ricks,  Microstoria, L@N, Borbetomagus,
Hijokaidan, Solmania etc.

Thanks for looking.


-Patrick
[e-mail]





-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Chris Hunter" <[e-mail]>
Subject: CD Shops in Tokyo
Date: 05 Aug 1998 21:56:43 +0800

I'm hoping to make it to Japan next month and while there hope to hear as
much as possible of the free/jazz/improv music that you hear on the Tzadik
and Avant labels etc.

When I was last there (years ago) it seemed that while the major stores such
as Tower Records had massive  ranges of the categories they chose to cover
(Rock, Jazz, J-pop, enka, classic etc) I don't recall seeing much marginal
stuff.

Can anyone recommend any venues or CD shops in Tokyo ( or Fukuoka ) with a
more
radical bent?

--
Cheers,
Chris
[e-mail]

"The study of 'non-Euclidian' geometry brings nothing to students but
fatigue, vanity, arrogance and imbecility. 'Non-Euclidian' space is the
false invention of demons, who gladly furnish the dark understandings of the
'non-euclidians' with false knowledge. The non-Euclidians, like the ancient
sophists, see unaware that their understandings have become obscured by the
promptings of the evil spirits".  Matthew Ryan


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Spirer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: CD Shops in Tokyo
Date: 05 Aug 1998 09:48:08 -0700

At 09:56 PM 8/5/98 +0800, Chris Hunter wrote:
>I'm hoping to make it to Japan next month and while there hope to hear as
>much as possible of the free/jazz/improv music that you hear on the Tzadik
>and Avant labels etc.
>

Well it's been a few years since I have been there but Wave in Tokyo was
the place.  However, there were numerous stores in the Akihabara that had
much broader selections than one would find in the US.


Jeff Spirer
B&W Photos: http://www.pomegranates.com/frame/spirer/
Color and B&W Photos: http://www.hyperreal.org/~jeffs/gallery.html
Axiom/Material: http://www.hyperreal.org/axiom/

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Hugues Roulon" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Riessler
Date: 05 Aug 1998 19:52:12 +0200



>
>can someone recommend any Michael Riessler cds? if anyone has any of
>his cds that they could tape for me , please let me know privately and
>i can do something in exchange...  Hywel Davies


I bought, perhaps two years ago, a record named Palude with Michael Riessler
on sax and calrinet, Valentin Clastrier on Hurdy-gurdy and Carlo Rizzo on
tambourine. A good record trying to create a "new hing" by mixing the roots
of european traditionnal music and modern composition and improvisation. I'm
always amazed when I listen to the things Carlo Rizzo can play with a single
tambourine!

Hugues Roulon
[e-mail]
http://www.fennec.digiweb.fr




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Caleb Deupree)
Subject: shelley hirsch
Date: 05 Aug 1998 16:04:59 -0400

Matthew Ross Davis:

    Matthew> I'm particularly interested in finding out more about
    Matthew> Shelley Hirsch; anyone have any clues as to what her
    Matthew> other projects are?

Joseph Zitt mentioned her collaboration with David Weinstein, but
today, as I'm blissfully ignoring my colleages, listening to the first
Filmworks on headphones, and there's this lovely ethereal voice in the
last set of pieces (She Must Be Seeing Things).  I reach to the cover
to see who it is, and lo and behold it's Shelley Hirsch.  And that
reminds me that she has a track on the Burt Bacharach tribute album as
well.

---
Caleb T. Deupree
;; Opinions...  funny thing about opinions, they can change.

Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers.
(Pablo Picasso)


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Perfect Sound Forever <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Marclay
Date: 05 Aug 1998 17:08:28 -0400

I've seen at least one of his installations here in New York at the Whitney a few years ago.  It was a tape spool unwinding onto
floor into a big pile.

As for future activities, here's an interview excerpt:

Otomo Yoshihide is someone I'm working with right now on a collaboration for Asphodel. He's
     an interesting DJ and really knows how to improvise with the records. He has great energy. Then
     there is the New York illbient scene with DJs like Olive, The Audio Janitor, and Toshio Kajiwara.
     They're always telling me about other kids doing interesting things and I'm just discovering new
     things through them. I've collaborated with Toshio and Olive in group improvisations. The other
     project I'm releasing with Asphodel is a compilation of live recordings that I've done over the last
     year with some of these younger DJ's. These are live performances. It's not a solo project -- when
     you think DJs, you think of them as solo artists with big egos. But if the turntable is really an
     instrument then why not have a band and play the instrument in combination with others. To react to
     sounds that don't come out of your own records, that's the ultimate challenge for a DJ. I've been
     trying for many years now to push this notion of the DJ as a band member, and I have been
     interested in groups of DJ's improvising together like a jazz band. So this record will be really
     featuring the instrument as a collaborative tool. It's hard to tell who's doing what when you're listening
     to these recordings. There's certain stylistics particular to each DJ, but when you hear a skipping
     loop, you think 'who's doing it' but who cares really? The result is a real collaborative effort and you
     have to listen to all these sounds democratically.

The whole thing's up at http://www.furious.com/perfect/christianmarclay.html

Jason
--
Perfect Sound Forever
online music magazine
[e-mail]
http://www.furious.com/perfect


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: about Norman Yamada's THE SAD SMILES OF THE YOUNG...
Date: 05 Aug 1998 14:40:29 -0700


        I found mention of the following record in the liner notes of Norman
Yamada's last one (BEING AND TIME, on Tzadik):


*** - THE SAD SMILES OF THE YOUNG NASHVILLIANS: Norman Yamada

    ???? - Kattywampus (???), ??? (??)


Does anybody know about it? I would specially like to know:

        - when was it released?
        - what is the label (never heard of it)?
        - who is playing on the record?
        - catalog number?

    Thanks,

        Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "John Dikeman" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Thomas Chapin's Death
Date: 05 Aug 1998 16:59:48 PDT

Anybody know exactly how and when Thomas Chapin died?

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: James Hale <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Thomas Chapin's Death
Date: 05 Aug 1998 22:00:00 -0500

John Dikeman wrote:
>
> Anybody know exactly how and when Thomas Chapin died?

Leukemia, on Feb. 14.

James Hale

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re:Shelley Hirsch
Date: 06 Aug 1998 14:09:41 EDT

I'm sure anybody has yet mentioned the Butch Morris record "Homeing" where
Hirsch is prominantly featured. I think it's on sound aspects. It's been a
while since I've listened to it but I remember enjoying it quite a bit.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Selling again......:-)
Date: 06 Aug 1998 21:08:47 EDT

Fellow Zornophiles,

For those of you that have been patronizing my CD sale lists (and anyone else
for that matter), I've recently added quite a few items. Email me for the
latest version of the list.

Thanks in advance!

Dale.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Scott Handley" <[e-mail]>
Subject: graewe+houle+leandre=?
Date: 07 Aug 1998 10:44:47 PDT

I seem to hear a lot of talk on this list about Joelle Leandre and
Francois Houle, both of whom I intend to check out.  But how about the
below release w/my man Georg Graewe?

LIVE AT BANLIEUES BLEUES

Joδlle LΘandre, bass, voice; Georg Graewe, piano; Franτois Houle,
clarinet.

Bei-spiel (05.42), Halos (02.57), From limbo (02.53), Aizi (03.22),
DΘmonique (01.26), Qalam (04.29), Such as it is (03.15), Shekinah
(03.39), Let the thus be (04.00), Anaphora (03.57), Cracks and clouds
(02.54), LumiΦre irrΘparable de l'aurore (08.09), Aizimen (05.02).

Recorded at Banlieues Bleues, Paris on 11 April 1996.

Haven't heard it, haven't heard anything about it...but wow! The
firepower.  Anyone heard it?

--scott

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: naked city video
Date: 08 Aug 1998 11:59:00 -0400

I just received a copy of the Naked City Marquee Club video. It's
available for $25 + $5 shipping (unless you happen to be in Chicago)
from:

VideoBeat Music Videos
2616 N Clark Street
Chicago, IL 60614
773-871-6667 FAX: [phone]
[e-mail]
(They also have a Web page, but I've misplaced the URL.)

They have quite a collection, and I got it within 6 days of wandering
into the store and asking about it.

Scott Handley wrote:
>
> Thanks to patrice, this info has been on the web for a while (check the
> videography at the end of his goliathan JZ mediography):
>
> NAKED CITY AT THE MARQUEE CLUB, NYC: 4/9/92 - 120 min. video - 9 (filmed
>     right after RADIO session)

--
---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: naked city video
Date: 08 Aug 1998 16:02:38 EDT

In a message dated 8/8/98 12:02:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[e-mail] writes:

>  I just received a copy of the Naked City Marquee Club video. It's
>  available for $25 + $5 shipping (unless you happen to be in Chicago)
>  from:
>
>  VideoBeat Music Videos
>  2616 N Clark Street
>  Chicago, IL 60614
>  773-871-6667 FAX: [phone]
>  [e-mail]
>  (They also have a Web page, but I've misplaced the URL.)

What a RIP OFF!!  And not to mention the audacity to sell a bootlegged,
audience shot video.  That Marquee show was also professionally shot, and
aired on Japanese TV, but it was only about an hours worth, and I bet this
place is selling 120 minutes of the audience shot video (like that place in MA
was doing).  The whole show was about 150 minutes.  Anyways, this is bad
news!!!  Stay away from this place!



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: naked city video
Date: 08 Aug 1998 17:16:55 EDT

In a message dated 98-08-08 16:06:24 EDT, [e-mail] writes:

<< What a RIP OFF!!  And not to mention the audacity to sell a bootlegged,
 audience shot video.  >>


This is an area I'm very familiar with but not involved in - $25 is the going
rate for any bootlegged video. Its a buyer-driven market, just like bootleg
audio. If people want it, and its available, they'll buy it.

Dale.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: naked city video
Date: 08 Aug 1998 17:32:54 -0400

[e-mail] wrote:

> What a RIP OFF!!  And not to mention the audacity to sell a bootlegged,
> audience shot video.  That Marquee show was also professionally shot, and
> aired on Japanese TV, but it was only about an hours worth, and I bet this
> place is selling 120 minutes of the audience shot video (like that place in MA
> was doing).  The whole show was about 150 minutes.  Anyways, this is bad
> news!!!  Stay away from this place!

I've only watched the first half hour of it (which, if I guess correctly)
is a performance of Leng T'che. I was wondering what was with the other
cameraman seen occasionally on stage.

So: if the professional video is so much better, and if we should stay
away from what appears to be the only other video document of the band
in action, including 90 minutes (yes, it's 150 minutes of video) that
the professional video omits -- please tell us how we might be able to
see the supposedly superior version.

--
---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: naked city video
Date: 09 Aug 1998 03:35:07 EDT

A few years ago, I too would have dropped 25 bucks for this video.  People
will obviously spend the money.  But I was just letting people know that this
is an audience shot video and not professionally done (the place selling it
may neglect to mention that in their catalog...).  My point was- try and find
it somewhere else, find someone who will trade you a copy for free.  And if
you search hard enough you can also get a copy of the pro-shot version.
Believe me, if I had the time I'd make copies of this for everyone that wanted
one.  So search around first, but if all else fails and 25$ seems like a
bargain to you, then by all means buy it.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Felix" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Mori+Coleman+Lindsay+Ribot+Kang
Date: 09 Aug 1998 22:28:14 +0200

WOW! Last night I witnessed to one of the most amazing shows since Zorn
brought Masada to Portugal.

Opening was Carlos Zingaro (violin) with Gunther Mⁿller (percussion), Otomo
Yoshinide (turntables and guitar) and another portuguses Emidio Buchinho
(guitar). They were great, specially Yoshinide and Mⁿller, who kept making
these weird sounds. I strongly suggest them.

Oval was interesting, and the guy was on stage only for about half an hour
so it didn't get too annoying.

Then came the ones I was hoping for - Ikue Mori, Anthony Coleman, Marc
Ribot, Eyvind Kang and Arto Lindsay, all together. They were a little
uninspired at first, and there were some stupid people booing their sounds,
but then they showed what they were really made off. Ikue Mori was very
peacefull and serene. Is she always like that when playing live? Kang and
Ribot were always twisting in their chairs. Lindsay had this look like he
was having the time of his life and Coleman I couldn't see because of the
seat I was in, but his playing was awe inspiring (specially his solo with
piano, organ and effects). All in all it was a great show and the crowd
ended up crying for two encores.

BTW, I reccomend the following portuguese artists and guarantee their
quality: Carlos Zingaro (whom I spoke off above) and Nuno Rebelo (a
guitarrist who makes wonderful experimental music to acompany contemporary
dancing).

Felix
[e-mail]


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:    jascha <[e-mail]>
Subject: Bloodcount
Date: 09 Aug 1998 21:05:42 -0400 (EDT)


The other day i was listening to the Bloodcount 3cd set at a store, and my
random samplings of the three discs landed me at the first song of the
'average daze' disc, 'loose ends'.  EGAD!  I've never quite heard anything
like it.  The stuff on the other discs didn't strike as being
transcendentally cool as that song did, so i'm wondering: i'm too short of
cash to go around buying 3cd sets because of one song, but i could afford
to send a blank tape and a SASE to some kind Bloodcount fan who could
maybe copy that song for me, and perhapse a sampling of other
transcendentally cool tracks from the other CDs so that i might later go
and buy one of my very own (...see, it's not copywrite violation, it's
advertising...).

What are the other albums like, anyway?  The long, long tracks on the
other discs of the set were good, but wouldn't be something i'd listen to
over and over again.  any more stuff along the lines of 'loose ends'?

To my faceless, tape-making e-friend, whoever you are -

                thanks!,
                    -jascha


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: NAKED CITY DISCS
Date: 09 Aug 1998 23:37:56 EDT

hello friends abroad. i am interested in naked city. i own the self-titled
album and abstinthe and bought radio today. now everyone i've talked to
doesn't really think highly of radio, and i want to know why. i think it's an
excellent disc, which is certainly better than abstinthe. it's quite
interesting. there is some really funky shit on hear, and the eye screaming is
somewhat tolerable. so i wanna hear it. what is the problem everyone has with
this album?and if you like it, then support it like i have.

also i'd love to hear some reviews/synopsis' of grand guignol and heretic.
i've heard some of the classical stuff from gg and i like it. oh and also what
is this radio v. 2 thing? the FAQ says it's never been released or anything,
or even recorded, but i'd like to know some more.
thanx
alex

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: naked city video
Date: 10 Aug 1998 00:08:27 -0400

Good points. If I can find the professional video around at a
non-pain-inducing price, I'll definitely grab it, my interest having
been piqued by the bootleg.

I hadn't found either around before, and the bootleg seemed worth the
$25 gamble when I stumbled across it. Others' mileage may vary.

(BTW, who is the long-haired guy who was trading screams with Y.Eye?)

[e-mail] wrote:
>
> A few years ago, I too would have dropped 25 bucks for this video.  People
> will obviously spend the money.  But I was just letting people know that this
> is an audience shot video and not professionally done (the place selling it
> may neglect to mention that in their catalog...).  My point was- try and find
> it somewhere else, find someone who will trade you a copy for free.  And if
> you search hard enough you can also get a copy of the pro-shot version.
> Believe me, if I had the time I'd make copies of this for everyone that wanted
> one.  So search around first, but if all else fails and 25$ seems like a
> bargain to you, then by all means buy it.
>
> -

--
---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: naked city
Date: 10 Aug 1998 00:16:14 EDT

>(BTW, who is the long-haired guy who was trading screams with Y.Eye?)

kevin sharp from brutal truth

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Matthew Ross Davis <[e-mail]>
Subject: Comma to perform with Baltimore's John Berndt
Date: 10 Aug 1998 00:24:32 -0500

Comma, of which I am a third (along with Tom Bickley and Joe Zitt), is
performing this Saturday for those who are interested:

    Saturday, August 15: Brend and Bend
    with John Berndt, saxophone, self-built instruments and electronics
    8:00 PM, $5
    Ruthless Grip Art Project
    1508 U Street, NW
    Washington, DC 20009

The evening will consist of mostly free improvisation with some structure=
d
improv thrown in. Comma will perform a few pieces from their repertory,
followed by a solo by John Berndt, then concluding with all four in
simultaneous/synchronous music making.

I hope those who can will come! It's our last concert at Ruthless Grip th=
is
summer. The final concert of the Comma:summer::new:music series will be o=
n
September 19th, "Masses of Time, Cycles of Light: Stockhausen at 70" at t=
he
University of Maryland and will feature a portion of "Tierkreis" along wi=
th
selections from "Aus den Sieben Tagen" and "F=FCr Kommende Zeiten."

More information about Comma:summer::new:music can be found on our web
pages at http://www.artswire.org/comma/csnm

On another note, the three members of Comma will be featured Monday eveni=
ng
(that's August 10) on live radio, WMUC FM, 88.1 in the College Park, MD
area. WMUC is also available via the Internet and RealAudio, so go to
http://www.wmuc.umd.edu and follow the links to the RealAudio page and tu=
ne
us in!

Contact me if you need directions to Ruthless Grip!


| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | m - a - t - t - h - e - w | r - o - s - s | d - a - v - i - s | |
| | http://www.artswire.org/mrd | | | | | | | UMD school of music | |
| | m-e-t-a-t-r-o-n p-r-e-s-s | | | http://www.artswire.org/comma | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: praxis-metatron
Date: 10 Aug 1998 12:43:31 -0500

i have a copy of praxis "metatron" on cd. i am lookin to trade this for
another cd. if anybody is interested please respond privately. thanks

jason

[e-mail]


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Scott Handley" <[e-mail]>
Subject: relatively cheap stuff
Date: 10 Aug 1998 11:25:34 PDT

I hope nobody gets annoyed by this, but for those who haven't noticed,
CDNow is concurrently having a sale and discount, which ends tomorrow. I
just thought it'd be relevant because I picked up (on backorder, of
course) a couple Winter & Winter releases and Towering Inferno's
KADDISH.  The W&W "jazz" stuff is $13.  And if you fiddle around and go
to "IMUSIC.com" you can get a $10 discount.  This expires tomorrow.

I am in no way connected to CDNow, but I now we could all save coins. If
this is spam, correct me, and apologies.

--scott

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Hugues Roulon" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn List Digest V2 #432
Date: 11 Aug 1998 00:16:53 +0200


>
>Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 10:44:47 PDT
>From: "Scott Handley" <[e-mail]>
>Subject: graewe+houle+leandre=3D?
>
>I seem to hear a lot of talk on this list about Joelle Leandre and
>Francois Houle, both of whom I intend to check out.  But how about the
>below release w/my man Georg Graewe?
>
>LIVE AT BANLIEUES BLEUES
>
>Jo=EBlle L=E9andre, bass, voice; Georg Graewe, piano; Fran=E7ois Houle,
>clarinet.
>
>Bei-spiel (05.42), Halos (02.57), From limbo (02.53), Aizi (03.22),
>D=E9monique (01.26), Qalam (04.29), Such as it is (03.15), Shekinah
>(03.39), Let the thus be (04.00), Anaphora (03.57), Cracks and clouds
>(02.54), Lumi=E8re irr=E9parable de l'aurore (08.09), Aizimen (05.02).
>
>Recorded at Banlieues Bleues, Paris on 11 April 1996.
>
>Haven't heard it, haven't heard anything about it...but wow! The
>firepower.  Anyone heard it?


Sorry for answering so lately but I'm on digest.

I have this record. I have to admit that It's been a long time since I
listened to it but it is good improv stuff. You can buy it if you like bo=
th
Leandre and Houle.
I remember I bought it with another record by Leandre that I listened to =
a
lot: LES DIABOLIQUES with Irene Schweizer (piano) and Maggie Nicols (Voic=
e).
It is a collection of little funny surrealistic songs.

Hugues ROULON

http://www.fennec.digiweb.fr


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rich Williams <[e-mail]>
Subject: Knitting Factory Prog fest
Date: 10 Aug 1998 20:27:53 -0500

Heres some (forwarded)news that should make a few people happy!


Beginning Saturday, September 5th through Tuesday the 8th, New York's
Knitting Factory plays host to a summit of the rock avant-garde's past,
present and future. Pillars of experimental rock's European wing will
gather at the Knit for several exclusive, soon-to-be historic
collaborative
performances.

The festivities commence Saturday with an incendiary performance from
Brainville, teaming the legendary Daevid Allen with his fellow Soft
Machine
alum Hugh Hopper, as well as his former colleague in Gong, drummer Pip
Pyle, alongside hometown eccentric and Shimmy-Disc czar Kramer, best
known
for his work with Bongwater.

Those left standing from Saturday's blowout will gather Sunday evening
for
two intimate shows from the recently resurgent troubadour, Roy Harper.
The
highly revered songwriter of 1970's Britain (and featured guest vocalist
for Pink Floyd) will surely sell out, so devotees nation-wide best act
quickly.

Monday's very special festivities reunite old cohorts from the immortal
Henry Cow. Avant-Rock stalwarts Peter Blegvad, Chris Cutler and John
Greaves will appear in two distinct combos, Unearthed and Breadvan - the
former, joined by famed H. Cow guitarist Fred Frith, highlights
Blegvad's
spoken-word explorations, the latter  showcases the instrumental
capabilities of these innovative giants (fans should also expect a visit
from Mr. Frith during this performance, as well!) Truly, the results
should
be the stuff of lore.

Tuesday the 8th, the aformentioned visionaries will be joined by several
very special guests of the experimental bent, all to celebrate the
groundbreaking work of Robert Wyatt.  A fitting end to four days of
unique
forays into out-sound mania, this event promises to serve as a showcase
for
all the pioneers of rock's Outer Reaches, a State-of-the-Laboratory
address
those in the know cannot afford to miss.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Tucker Dulin" <[e-mail]>
Subject: coleman and trombone
Date: 10 Aug 1998 21:06:18 -0400

    Anybody know of recordings (Selfhaters or otherwise) on which Anthony
Coleman plays trombone? I have the Abysmal Richness ... and his use of the
trombone timbre is interesting, but terse ... wondering if there is more
..
Thank you!

Tucker

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Alan Lankin <[e-mail]>
Subject: seeking info for Myra Melford discography
Date: 10 Aug 1998 21:12:30 -0400

I've recently compiled a discography on jazz pianist Myra Melford and am
looking for any items I've missed.

I'm especially interested in details of her Nisus tapes.

She performed on Zorn's "Cobra Live."

See http://home.att.net/~lankina/melford/mm_discography.html.

Thanks.

--
Alan Lankin
[e-mail]

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: coleman and trombone
Date: 10 Aug 1998 18:24:57 -0700


On Mon, 10 Aug 1998 21:06:18 -0400  "Tucker Dulin" wrote:
>
>     Anybody know of recordings (Selfhaters or otherwise) on which Anthony
> Coleman plays trombone? I have the Abysmal Richness ... and his use of the
> trombone timbre is interesting, but terse ... wondering if there is more
> ..

Only two others to my knowledge:


063 - SELFHATERS: Anthony Coleman

  Anthony Coleman: organ, piano, sampler piano, voice, trombone, accordion;
  James Pugliese: percussion, trumpet; Doug Wieselman (all but (6)): E-flat
  clarinet; David Krakauer (8): bass clarinet; Michael Attias (3,4,5,6):
  clarinet, alto, baritone saxophone; Fred Lonberg-Holm (3,4,5,6): cello,
  banjo; Roy Nathanson (6): clarinet, soprano.

    1996 - Tzadik (USA), TZ 7110 (CD)


075 - GREAT JEWISH MUSIC: BURT BACHARACH: various artists

  This record features Wayne Horvitz (1), Marc Ribot (2), Dave Douglas (3),
  Guy Klucevsek (4), Kramer (5), Erik Friedlander (6), Joey Baron (7), Zeena
  Parkins (8), Marc Ribot (9), Fred Frith (10), Medeski/Martin & Wood (11),
  Elliott Sharp (12), Marie McAuliffe (13), Mike Patton (14), Lloyd Cole and
  Robert Quine (15), Anthony Coleman's Selfhaters (16), Yuka Honda and Sean
  Lennon (17), Shelley Hirsch (18), Bill Frisell (19), Eyvind Kang (20).

  Robin Holcomb (1): vocals; Julie Wolf (1): vocals; Wayne Horvitz (1): pre-
  pared piano; Timothy Young (1): guitars; Marc Ribot (2,9): guitar; Charlie
  Giordano (2): keyboards; Greg Cohen (2): bass; Christine Bard (2): drums;
  Dave Douglas (3): trumpet; Scott Robinson (3): bass saxophone, piccolo,
  flute; Uri Caine (3): piano; Guy Klucevsek (4): accordion; Kramer (5): all
  intruments, vocals; Erik Friedlander (6): cello; Chris Speed (6): clarinet;
  Andrew D'Angelo (6): bass clarinet; Drew Gress (6): bass; Joey Baron (7):
  drums; Zeena Parkins (8): harps, organ; Sara Parkins (8): violin; Ikue Mori
  (8): electric percussion; Fred Frith (10): all instruments, vocals; John
  Medeski (11): mellotron, organ, electric piano; Chris Wood (11): bass; Billy
  Martin (11): drums; Elliott Sharp (12): all instruments; Marie McAuliffe
  (13): piano; David Hofstra (13): bass; Kevin Norton (13): drums; Robert
  Henke (13): flugelhorn; Clare Daly (13): tenor; Chris Washburne (13): trom-
  bone; Mike Patton (14): vocals, keyboards; William Winant (14): percussion,
  hammered dulcimer; David Slusser (14): theremin; Trey Spruance (14): guitar;
  Michael Peloquin (14): harmonica; Lloyd Cole (15): guitar, vocals; Robert
  Quine (15): guitars; Anthony Coleman (16,18): keyboards, trombone, vocals,
  accordion; Doug Wieselman (16): clarinet; Jim Pugliese (16): percussion,
  trumpet; Yuka Honda (17): keyboards, vocals; Sean Lennon (17): guitar,
  keyboards, drums, vocals; Shelley Hirsch (18): vocals; Jim Staley (18):
  trombone; Jon Hodges (18): background vocals; Max Lyandvent (18): background
  vocals; Bill Frisell (19): guitar; Eyvind Kang (20): erhu, acoustic and
  electric violins; Mint (20): bass, keyboard, drums, finger cymbals, alto
  recorder.

    1997 - Tzadik (USA), TZ 7114-2 (2xCD)


    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Simon Hopkins <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: CD Shops in Tokyo
Date: 11 Aug 1998 12:52:06 +0000

At 09:56 PM 8/5/98 +0800, Chris Hunter wrote:
>>I'm hoping to make it to Japan next month and while there hope to hear as
>>much as possible of the free/jazz/improv music that you hear on the Tzadik
>>and Avant labels etc.
>>
>>Well it's been a few years since I have been there but Wave in Tokyo was
>the place.  However, there were numerous stores in the Akihabara that had
>much broader selections than one would find in the US.
>
>something that dan hill & i have been working on state51's motion website
>is a specialist recordshop finder. visitors can look shops up by location
>or genre specialism. what's important though is that the information is
>all provided by the public; visitors can post information on shops and
>leave their own observations/comments. at the moment we haven't got much
>tokyo stuff in there  - which is madness as my own experience indicates
>that there are more specialist record shops per square mile than in any
>city on earth. so, if you come across anything out there, please, please,
>let us know about it it.

cheers!



simon hopkins
an associate member of the state51 conspiracy

check out new reviews on ---+ motion: carla bley & paul haines; sushi
4004;john french; mixmaster mike; men with guns original soundtrack;
subarachnoid space; volume allstars
http://www.state51.co.uk/motion



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "robert ludington" <[e-mail]>
Subject: texaco/jazz fest
Date: 11 Aug 1998 13:30:41 PDT

hello fellow Zorn-sters....
     As this is my first post to the list, i'm not sure if the topic is
either relivant, or warrants discussion, but i sure think so. I
appologize in advance if not.... I'm a student planning to major in
music, and minor in sociology when I start college this fall.  Due to my
intrest in sociology I've been getting more involved in activism,
boycotts, social awareness & other actions that I as a person & consumer
can take to right what I feel is wrong...... but i digress, the point of
this is recently I discovered several things about Texaco that I feel
warrant a boycott of their products, and sponsored events..... and one
such event is the Jazz Fest they sponsor in NY, which Zorn & his fellow
compatriots have performed at..... and I feel that as fans we should
voice to him/them any concerns about this.  I also feel that Jazz, in
past & present, has -totally- been about social change, and
activism..... I realise that it is hard enough for these artists to find
platforms for which to be heard, but I think that if they knew about
Texaco's well guarded secrets that they would reconsider.  They are
guilty of more than just the discrimination suit that was brought
against them recently, and for information you should visit:
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/3199/texaco.html

thanx for your time, and again, i apologize if this either seems
extremist, or isn't relevant to the zorn list.... but i thought it was
worth mentioning.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Uncle Meat <[e-mail]>
Subject: New York, August 26-28
Date: 11 Aug 1998 18:43:18 -0400

Hi, i'll be spending a couple of days in New York City at the end of
this month (August 26-28) and i'd appreciate some recommandations on
musical events to attend and music stores to check out wich would sell
the kind of music discussed on this list.

Thanks
Uncle Meat


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Caleb T. Deupree" <[e-mail]>
Subject: filmworks revisited
Date: 11 Aug 1998 19:03:48 -0400

A while back there was an inquiry about the filmworks set.  Since that time
I picked up III used and VIII new, so I thought I'd pass along a few
comments.

Filmworks III contains four sets of material.  Many will be interested in
the earliest recordings of what was to become the Masada group (with Marc
Ribot on one of the twelve tracks), and not playing Masada material, but a
more bluesy soundtrack reminiscent of Miles' Escalator to the Scaffold.
There are also a number of duets between Ribot and Zorn, which are also
excellent.  But these two sets take up less than half the CD.  Apart from a
draft for the Cynical Hysterie Hour (3 minutes), the bulk of the CD is cues
which Zorn put together for the advertising firm of Weiden and Kennedy.
Now there is some great playing here, but in about a half hour there are 31
tracks, some of which barely have time to introduce all the players before
they fade out.  There's some really great music, but absolutely no room for
anyone to state a theme (much less stretch), and I found the overall effect
very frustrating.

Filmworks VIII is a different story.  The Masada String Trio is augmented
by Ribot, Anthony Coleman on piano, and Min Xiao-Fen on pipa.  Beautiful
renditions of beautiful pieces, highly recommended for Bar Kokhba fans.
The disc is supplemented by equally fine percussion duets between Cyro
Baptista and Kenny Wollesen.  Unlike some of JZ's other two-work disks (I'm
thinking specifically of Duras/Duchamp), the two works on this disc blend
together very well, and I find this to be one of JZ's most listenable outings.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Christian Heslop" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Uncle Meat
Date: 11 Aug 1998 17:25:31 -0700

I don't know anything about New York but I am glad to see a Frank Zappa fan
on this list


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: MY IDEA FOR ZORN'S NEXT PROJECT
Date: 11 Aug 1998 20:42:11 EDT

behold all, i've come up with an idea. it's similar to what charlie hunter did
with natty dread, but not really. basically my idea is for zorn and friends to
cover an entire "important" musical album. the specific album would've been
much better for naked city, but i think zorn could still pull it together. the
album is maggot brain by funkadelic. imagine it! zorn covering every second of
it.

the title track could feature marc ribot or frisell or elliot sharp tearing up
the hazelness of maggot brain. or zorn himself could take that song on. or how
about buckethead? that would be perfect! here is my proposed lineup for this
album

alto saxophone, clarinet, gamecalls, arranger- zorn
guitars- frisell, sharp,ribot, buckethead
organ/piano-wayne horvitz,john medeski, uri caine
drums- joey baron, rashied ali, bobby previte
bass-  kemit driscoll, bill laswell
trumpet- dave douglas
clarinet- don byron
vocals- dean bowman, kramer, arto lindsay, mikepatton, eye for wars of
armageddon,
don byron, zorn, uri caine, yuka honda
stings- mark feldman, carol emaneul, jill jaffe
percussion- cyro baptista

call me crazy. of course they could never get this lineup together. but those
of you familiar with this brilliant funkadelic album, wouldn't this be
beautiful?
please respond everyone i'd love to here whatcha think

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MY IDEA FOR ZORN'S NEXT PROJECT
Date: 11 Aug 1998 21:31:46 EDT

In a message dated 98-08-11 20:44:54 EDT, [e-mail] writes:

<<
 behold all, i've come up with an idea. it's similar to what charlie hunter
did
 with natty dread, but not really. basically my idea is for zorn and friends
to
 cover an entire "important" musical album. >>

I like this idea actually.....and since we're dreaming, I'd vote for The Rite
of Spring!

Dale.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Brian Olewnick <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MY IDEA FOR ZORN'S NEXT PROJECT
Date: 11 Aug 1998 22:42:11 -0400

[e-mail] wrote:
> I like this idea actually.....and since we're dreaming, I'd vote for The Rite
> of Spring!

Y'know, I was actually thinking of the following the other day, as it
would fit comfortably into a "Great Jewish Music" slot, while also
allowing a re-interpretation of a 20th century undervalued masterpiece a
la JZ's 'Grand Guignol' covers: I'd love to hear him tackle Marc
Blitzstein's 'Airborne Symphony'! A somewhat reined-in (until 'The Open
Sky'!) David Moss might make a fine narrator, while David Garland might
sing the lead on lovely songs like 'Ballad of the Bombardier'. Mmmmm.

Brian Olewnick

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: filmworks revisited
Date: 12 Aug 1998 00:39:53 EDT

In a message dated 8/11/98 7:04:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< Filmworks III contains four sets of material.  Many will be interested in
 the earliest recordings of what was to become the Masada group (with Marc
 Ribot on one of the twelve tracks), and not playing Masada material, but a
 more bluesy soundtrack reminiscent of Miles' Escalator to the Scaffold.
 There are also a number of duets between Ribot and Zorn, which are also
 excellent.  But these two sets take up less than half the CD.  Apart from a
 draft for the Cynical Hysterie Hour (3 minutes), the bulk of the CD is cues
 which Zorn put together for the advertising firm of Weiden and Kennedy.
 Now there is some great playing here, but in about a half hour there are 31
 tracks, some of which barely have time to introduce all the players before
 they fade out.  There's some really great music, but absolutely no room for
 anyone to state a theme (much less stretch), and I found the overall effect
 very frustrating. >>

I understand what you're driving at here, but after taking into account what
these tracks were originally intended for- I consider them absolutely
brilliant for doing what they do in such a short length of time, that is,
setting up an atmosphere for an advertisement.  Maybe this is a collection
best intended for the completist Zornie.  Own up, Caleb- we're just spoiled by
the good stuff...;-)

spinning: World Standard- Country Gazette

=dgasque=

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: David Newgarden <[e-mail]>
Subject: Tonic New Music Series continues . . .
Date: 12 Aug 1998 00:55:25 -0400 (EDT)

The New Music Series at Tonic
107 Norfolk St. between Delancey and Rivington St., New York City
(F or J train to Delancey / Essex St.)
info line: 212-358-7503  /  www.tonic107.com

August
Wed 12 John Zorn's COBRA $10
Thu 13 Frank London $8
Fri 14 Mark Helias $10
Sat 15 Guy Klucevsek $8
Sun 16 Rashied Ali, Louis Belogenis & Wilber Morris $10
Wed 19 Judy Dunaway - CRI CD Release Party  FREE

8/20-22 Great Young Percussionist/Composers Weekend
Thu 20  Ben Perowsky Trio $6
Fri 21  John Hollenbeck's Claudia Quintet $6
Sat 22  Lukas Ligeti $6

Wed 26 Andrea Parkins/Jim Black Duo $6
Thu 27 Naftule's Dream $8
Fri 28 Norman Yamada $6
Sat 29 Billy Martin/Calvin Weston Duo $10
Wed 2  Drew Gress's Jagged Sky $6
Thur 3  Ned Rothenberg/Bobby Previte/Marc Ribot $10
9/4 & 5  SOLO STRINGS
Fri 4 Elliott Sharp, Mari Kimura, Nick Didkovsky $10
Sat 5 Loren Mazzacane Connors, Kato Hideki, Chris Cochrane $10

Sun 6  John Zorn & Fred Frith $10 (early show - R. Stevie Moore - 7pm $6)
Wed 9  Oscar Noriega Quartet $6
Thu 10 Karl Berger  $10
Fri 11 Cuong Vu $6
Sat 12 Les Batteries (Rick Brown & Guigou Chenevier) $8
Wed 16 Dorgon $6
Thu 17 Anthony Coleman $8
Fri 18 Paradigm Shift $8
Sat 19 Soultronix $6
Wed 23 Double Bass Drum (Mark Dresser, Gerry Hemingway, Mike Sarin, Skuli
Sverrisson)
9/24-26 John Zorn's Masada $10
Wed 30 Dan Willis CD Release Party $6
10/1-3  John Zorn's Bar Kokhba $10

Performances are at 9:00 and 10:30. No advance tickets.

[Sept./Oct. is being curated by accordionist/composer Ted Reichman, who
has played on numerous albums by Anthony Braxton (including
Braxton/Reichman Duo on Music & Art) and is also a member of David
Krakauer's Klezmer Madness. Ted has also performed with Steve Beresford,
Anthony Coleman, Guy Klucevsek, Alvin Lucier, Christian Wolff and Eugene
Chadbourne among others.

October will feature a special week of diverse performances by Haino
Keiji.

Elliott Sharp will be curating the Tonic New Music Series in November.]





-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: BJOERN <[e-mail]>
Subject: great jewish bolan
Date: 12 Aug 1998 14:03:05 +0200 (MEST)

well,
anyone have any idea when the bolan tribute disc will be released???

BJOERN
www.cityinfonetz.de/uni/homepage/bjoern.eichstaedt


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: great jewish bolan
Date: 12 Aug 1998 08:25:43 -0700


On Wed, 12 Aug 1998 14:03:05 +0200 (MEST)  BJOERN wrote:
>
> well,
> anyone have any idea when the bolan tribute disc will be released???


*** - GREAT JEWISH MUSIC: MARC BOLAN: various artists

  This record features Arto Lindsay (1), Rebecca Moore (2), Kramer (3),
  Melvins (4), Medeski/Martin & Wood (5), Lo Galluccio (6), Mike Patton (7),
  Tall Dwarfs (8), Chris Cochrane (9), Gary Lucas (10), Eszter Balint (11),
  Audio Noir (12), Danny Cohen (13), Elysian Fields (14), Sean Lennon & Yuka
  Honda (15), Cake Like (16), Trey Spruance (17), Buckethead (18), Lloyd Cole
  (19).

    1/ Children Of The Revolution               (Arto Lindsay)
    2/ Telegram Sam                             (Rebecca Moore)
    3/ Get It On                                (Kramer)
    4/ Buick McKane                             (Melvins)
    5/ Groove A Little                          (MM&W)
    6/ Cosmic Dancer                            (Lo Galluccio)
    7/ Chariot Choogle                          (Mike Patton)
    8/ Ride A White Swan                        (Tall Dwarfs)
    9/ Rip-Off                                  (Chris Cochrane)
    10/ Debora Arobed                           (Gary Lucas)
    11/ Mambo Sun                               (Eszter Balint)
    12/ Jeepster                                (Audio Noir)
    13/ Lunacy's Back                           (Danny Cohen)
    14/ Life's A Gas                            (Elysian Fields)
    15/ Would I Be The One                      (Lennon, Honda)
    16/ Love Charm                              (Cake Like)
    17/ Sceneslof                               (Trey Spruance)
    18/ 20th Century Boy                        (Buckethead)
    19/ Romany Soup                             (Lloyd Cole)

    1998 - Tzadik (USA), TZ 7125 (CD)

  Note: not released yet (planned for September 1998).



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Marks, Andy" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: great jewish bolan
Date: 12 Aug 1998 10:28:15 -0500

Anyone know what else is due for release
from Tzadik in September?



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "M. Forrest  Lewis" <[e-mail]>
Subject: zappa
Date: 12 Aug 1998 09:33:03 -0600

>I don't know anything about New York but I am glad to see a Frank Zappa
>fan on this list

ditto. zappa lives.

-louie

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: great jewish bolan
Date: 12 Aug 1998 08:37:28 -0700


On Wed, 12 Aug 1998 10:28:15 -0500  "Marks, Andy" wrote:
>
> Anyone know what else is due for release
> from Tzadik in September?

John Zorn -- Aporias: Requia for Orchestra

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: zappa
Date: 12 Aug 1998 12:11:07 -0500




>I don't know anything about New York but I am glad to see a Frank Zappa
>fan on this list

One thing that's struck me as curious: It would seem clear that Zappa's 'Lumpy
Gravy' (and similar efforts here and there on his early records) was a direct
antecedant to JZ's cut-up efforts of the mid 80's. To the best of my knowledge,
Zorn has never acknowledged this. Does anyone know otherwise?

FWIW, I'm a FZ fan up to and including 'Burnt Weenie Sandwich' (with 'Uncle
Meat', my favorite FZ recording). After that point, he bores me to tears.

Brian Olewnick





-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: re:zappa
Date: 12 Aug 1998 15:38:19 EDT

>FWIW, I'm a FZ fan up to and including 'Burnt Weenie Sandwich' (with 'Uncle

Meat', my favorite FZ recording). After that point, he bores me to tears.



Brian Olewnick

interesting. somehow i would have thought there are more out there who thought
his compositions got more interesting after he stopped using musicians to play
them. have you checked out civilization phase III? i would say try b4 you buy,
but check it out. not that i don't like the older stuff, but i think he got
better...

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: anybody has 300 by Briggan Krauss?
Date: 12 Aug 1998 14:26:15 -0700


    I was wondering if anybody was successful to find 300 by Briggan
Krauss?

    Patrice.

PS: be carefull that if you say yes, you take the risk that I will ask you for
a detailed description of the record...

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "David J. Keffer" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Question regarding Phew
Date: 12 Aug 1998 18:06:22 -0400


Hello Folks on the Zorn list,

I have a question for you all regarding the vocalist Phew.
There are a couple of relatively recent records that feature
her that I am looking for reviews on:

PHEW  "Himitsu No Knife"  CREATIVEMAN DISC CMDD 10, 1995
Here she is backed by a group led by Ground Zero/P.O.N.'s Uemura Masahiro,
with much backing help from Otomo Yoshihide (turntables, guitar).

NOVO TONE "Panorama Paradise" CREATIVEMAN DISC CMDD 38, >1995
A group featuring Phew (vocals), Seiichi Yamamoto (guitar; Boredoms), Otomo
Yoshihide (turntables), Masahiro Uemura (drums; P.O.N.),

All I have heard by Phew are her first self-titled album from 1981 with the
members
of CAN and the 1993 Anton Fier album "Dreamspeed" on AVANT (AVAN 009).  I dug
both of these quite a bit.  Any reviews positive or negative on the
Creativeman discs
would be appreciated.  References to the either of the two albums I have
heard would
be useful.  Thanks.

David K.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Spirer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Question regarding Phew
Date: 12 Aug 1998 15:20:05 -0700

At 06:06 PM 8/12/98 -0400, David J. Keffer wrote:

>All I have heard by Phew are her first self-titled album from 1981 with the
>members
>of CAN and the 1993 Anton Fier album "Dreamspeed" on AVANT (AVAN 009).

She is on the Blind Light CD that was something of a followup to _Dreamspeed_.


Jeff Spirer
B&W Photos: http://www.pomegranates.com/frame/spirer/
Color and B&W Photos: http://www.hyperreal.org/~jeffs/gallery.html
Axiom/Material: http://www.hyperreal.org/axiom/

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Seth Gordon <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: zappa
Date: 12 Aug 1998 20:05:29 PDT

I believe that JZ mentioned Zappa in the liner notes on "The Big Gundown"-
but it might have been somewhere else. I'm at work now and don't have the
CD on me, so I can't check.

As for the early / late period FZ issue- I admit that after "Burnt Weeny"
he got a little tame (Was BWS before or after "Hot Rats"?- I dig that one
alot too.), but I think in his final yeras he put out some of his finest
work. "The Yellow Shark" had some truly beautiful moments, enough to make
up the debacle that was the "LSO" series. I think in his later days, as he
grew accustomed to the idea of himself as a composer he no longer felt it
necessary to put a little "rock" into everything (as on LSO)- to a much
more satisfying listening experience. I especially like the smaller,
chamber works for strings ("Times Beach" in particular) and the piano works
("Ruth is Sleeping" stands out, as does "Girl in the Magnesium Dress").
Granted, some of these pieces he had written upwards of a decade prior- but
I think it's the simplified arrangements that really let them shine. But
hell, that's just my opinion...


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Looking for insight
Date: 12 Aug 1998 20:11:02 EDT

Greetings all....

OK....I feel like I'm showing my ignorance here or something, but I trust the
opinions I see here (usually!). I simply do not "get" Tim Berne!!!! I've got
the following discs:

Diminuitive Mysteries (Mostly Hemphill)
Sanctified Dreams
Caos Totale - Nice View
The Paris Concert - Memory Select
The Paris Concert - Poisoned Minds
The Paris Concert - Lowlife

If someone can point me at what I'm missing, I'd appreciate it. Otherwise, the
discs will probably be on my next sale list!!

Thanks.

Dale.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Steven Nilsen)
Subject: Short track listening.
Date: 12 Aug 1998 21:45:53 -0600

I sorta agree with what was said about finding JZ's short songs attention
draining, and ultimately aggravating.  You really enjoy the musicianship,
but they're difficult to enjoy forthe frustrating lack of themes.

I found a few solutions to this problem.  First, throw a disc with several
short peices in with several other CDs and play them together on random.
Much of JZ's music is fantastic spice to bring out the flavor of other
music- an occational snip between Myra and Medeski sounds super.
Second idea, one I haven't tried but think would work.  Do a listening
session with a friend.  Discuss each little piece, pause before the next,
with little ideas or emotional responses.  Turning up the volume really
loud and doing this while tweaked could be excellent fun.

Just a few thoughts to add life to those dusty Filmworks.
-Steven



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Michael Howes <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Question regarding Phew
Date: 12 Aug 1998 23:02:21 -0700

>
>NOVO TONE "Panorama Paradise" CREATIVEMAN DISC CMDD 38, >1995
>A group featuring Phew (vocals), Seiichi Yamamoto (guitar; Boredoms), Otomo
>Yoshihide (turntables), Masahiro Uemura (drums; P.O.N.),
>
>All I have heard by Phew are her first self-titled album from 1981 with the
>members
>of CAN and the 1993 Anton Fier album "Dreamspeed" on AVANT (AVAN 009).  I dug
>both of these quite a bit.  Any reviews positive or negative on the
>Creativeman discs
>would be appreciated.

 I have and like the Novo Tono (notice it's o note e) disc and like it quit
a bit.
It's all in the "rock" world but I'd put it with the Boredoms or other VERY
tight, high energy, lots of different sounds type bands like the Boredoms.
Most of the lyrics are in Japanese.
 There are a few "ambient" tracks but the more rockin tracks are very tight
borderline amazing.
 Phew plays a major role and sings on most tracks. She does her spoken/sung
thing like on her solo record on a few (a pun waiting to happen) tracks.
 This disc is not perfect by any means...there are some horrendous (almost
humorous) light 70s folk rock songs.

 mike
[e-mail]



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Corey Marc Fogel <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Looking for insight
Date: 13 Aug 1998 00:56:10 -0700 (MST)



On Wed, 12 Aug 1998 [e-mail] wrote:

> Sanctified Dreams
> Caos Totale - Nice View
> The Paris Concert - Memory Select
> The Paris Concert - Poisoned Minds
> The Paris Concert - Lowlife
>
> If someone can point me at what I'm missing, I'd appreciate it. Otherwise, the
> discs will probably be on my next sale list!!

here's what youre missing, Bloodcount - Saturation Point, Loose Cannon with
Jeff Hershfield and Michael Formanek, Miniature with Joey Baron, Fulton Street
Maul. own those, and maybe you'll "Get" him.

but assuming you didnt go buy those. based on what you have, what's not to
"get"? listen to his distinct compositions and the pain in his playing....and
..the end. or just sell your cds to me


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dan Hewins <[e-mail]>
Subject: New MMW
Date: 13 Aug 1998 11:40:29 -0500

Anybody else get the new MMW?  I got it and I have given it quite a few
listenings.  Although I like it, I think I have to agree with the
overwhelming response of my friends wh say that Billy Martin needs some new
beats.  I seem to remember from the other discs that he would play
different beats here and there but this disc has him doing his trademark
groove (which, don't get me wrong, isn't bad) on the majority of the
tracks.  I have to say that I like the inclusion of DJ Olive on three of
the tracks.  I like what he does with the turntable.  (My way into the
DJ/turntable thing has been through the jazz-er side of things, especially
the sort of music that we on this list overlap on.  Take that to mean that
I am relatively new to the sub-genre and am not aware of what is and can be
done by these DJs.)  He's not always scratching, using the turntable as a
rhythm instument.  He uses it to play bits of the records as samples and
gets some really interesting sounds out of it.  The disc as a whole is
mellower than Shack Man.  I'll probably keep listening to it but I think it
will be one that I may get tired of eventually.

Well, I'm considering making the drive up to Chicago (from STL) to see
them.  They'll be playing with DJ Olive, if I have my facts straight.  Has
anyone seen them recently?  Anyone planning on going in Chicago?

Dan



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dan Hewins <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Looking for insight
Date: 13 Aug 1998 11:28:44 -0500

Dale,

You're missing one of the best: Bloodcount "Unwound"
In my opinion, the Paris Concert Bloodcount albums are tame compared to
more recent Bloodcount.  Jim Black seems to have changed in the time that
separates the releases -- and for the better.

"Mutant Variations" and "The Ancestors" are good discs as well.

Big Satan with Marc Ducret and Tom Rainey is kick-ass but I have to say
that, for me, the two other guys are what keep my attention rather that
Tim...

Even with these suggestions, I'm afraid that maybe you just don't/won't
like Tim Berne because "Diminutive Mysteries" is really, really good.  That
is up there on my list as one of the best Berne releases.

I hope this helps,
Dan


>OK....I feel like I'm showing my ignorance here or something, but I trust the
>opinions I see here (usually!). I simply do not "get" Tim Berne!!!! I've got
>the following discs:



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: naked city video
Date: 13 Aug 1998 12:52:43 -0500


i recently offered the "naked city marquee 4.4.92" video for trade on this
list. the copy i have is the audience shot full legth version. the quality is
good. i'm not sure how it is in comparison to the "professional" shot but the
copy i have is the full show, not the 90min version. i've been mostly
interested in trade for this video (it actually fits on two videos). i also
have a copy of naked city on a finnish tv special.

i've had a lot of requests for these videos and unfortunately could not get
them out to everyone interested for reasons such as video format (i can not
dub PAL format) etc. i'm in the middle of taking care of the trades i could
work out.

if anyone is really interested in seeing these videos i could do some more
trades in middle to late september once the trades i am doing now are taken
care of. anyone interested can send me a trade list if they wish. any
questions about these videos or whatever please respond privately. thanks

jason
[e-mail]


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Scott Handley" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Looking for insight (t. berne)
Date: 13 Aug 1998 11:11:34 PDT

>On Wed, 12 Aug 1998 [e-mail] wrote:
>
>> Sanctified Dreams
>> Caos Totale - Nice View
>> The Paris Concert - Memory Select
>> The Paris Concert - Poisoned Minds
>> The Paris Concert - Lowlife
>>
>> If someone can point me at what I'm missing, I'd appreciate it.
[snip]

>here's what youre missing, Bloodcount - Saturation Point, Loose Cannon
with
>Jeff Hershfield and Michael Formanek, Miniature with Joey Baron, Fulton
Street
>Maul. own those, and maybe you'll "Get" him. ...based on what you have,
what's not to
>"get"? listen to his distinct compositions and the pain in his
playing....and
>..the end. ...

Sorry for the long-ass clip, but I'd like to respond to the above.
First the BOTTOM LINE for those of you with less patience and time:

I LIKE BERNE'S MUSIC AND ESPECIALLY BLOODCOUNT BECAUSE OF THE BEAUTIFUL
DEVELOPMENT OF THE MUSIC, WHERE IMPROVISATION AND COMPOSITION COMBINE TO
THE DEGREE OF BEING ALMOST INDISTINGUISHABLE.  I BELIEVE THIS IS MORE
TRUE ON THE THREE BLOODCOUNT CDs ON JMT THAN ON ANY OTHER RECORDINGS.
KEEP THEM!  THEY MAY GROW ON YOU LIKE SOMETHING ORGANIC (LIKE THE MUSIC
ITSELF, WHICH GROWS AND SHAPES ITSELF LIKE NIGHT PLANTS).

BUT IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT: QUE SERA, SERA.

First, ALL music has plenty that one can "not get"; I suspect that I get
punk just fine, and I suspect it's bullshit...but my healthy sense of
personal ignorance motivates me to at least suspend my disbelief and
check out some records.  I think it's great that Dale asked about
Berne's music.  I only have opinions, and most are positive.

I'm not going to talk about the shapes that the music inspires in my
head, but I personally love the spiderweb patterns in Bloodcount's music
in particular, and in Berne's music in general.  In spite of the
formulas  (unison-line grooves backing free-bop solos; the well-placed
noise guitar freak-out; highly angular lines which are pretty
homogeneous, insofar as most stuff written by Wayne Shorter for the mid
sixties Miles group sound the same), I just think the guy is beautifully
creative, and really accessible.  I love listening to the track
"Bloodcount" from LOWLIFE (not the UNWOUND version, though that has its
own charms) and hearing the improvised solos tease and draw out the next
episodic installment of the composition, until one is no longer sure
whether improvisation gives way to composition or vice versa;
abstraction and groove collide: I can have my JBs and my Ayler at the
Vanguard, simultaneously, but all without the kind of pastiche that I
suspect characterizes much of "postmodernism"'s more superficial
casualties (respect to JZ and Schnittke).  The last third of
"Bloodcount" or the last ten minutes of "Eye Contact" are pure emotion
(I agree in those cases with Corey's "pain" comment), and should go down
in the book for apocalyptic endings.  I also feel that at the end of a
long Berne piece I really feel emptied; in the man's own words it's
about the "drama" of it all.  It works like tragedy, at it's best (the
blowing session/head-solo-solo-solo-head approach deters this), and the
effect is accordingly cathartic.

Berne isn't my favorite saxophonist or improvisor, and he's also not
much of a technical master or instrumental innovator, but neither was
Miles Davis.  The similarity, for me, between the two men comes down to
the unlimited contextsa in which they excercised and tested their
respective limitations.  Dave Douglas does this too: he's a
fundamentally linear improvisor who draws liberally from "the"
"tradition", but there's no limit to what his MUSIC can do.  Some on
this list spoke in a qualified fashion about Berne's Paraphrase group
because it's such a player's environment: Berne's is left naked to hold
his own, and he does.  But if you don't care for his
playing...well...there's an awful LOT of it.  I don't "get" a lot of
Braxton's music, and there are aspects of it I KNOW I don't like (I
simply regard them as shortcomings, quite simply shortcomings---genius
has its limits); but Brax is a radical formal innovator who is Mr.
Context as well.  I'd rather listen to DD's SANCTUARY than a seemingly
interminable jumble of thorny lines for four orchestras, but I'm glad
it's all out there.  Same with Evan Parker, who's said himself that
context is everything (in the context of jamming: "that's all that ever
happens when you play with other musicians: you go and play your sound,
they use it in some way, and it goes into the mix" [WIRE article, check
their website]).  Composer-improvisors are the greatest, though, because
they more often than not write FOR the musicians to the point where
cmposition is almost equilaterally a collaborative effort.  In this
regard, Berne belongs to a long line of beautiful musical minds:
Ellington, Cecil Taylor, Charles Mingus, and John Zorn, and those are
just a few super-famous names I can think of right off. I'd also contest
that Berne is one of the greatest current torchbearers for the IDEAS
that the AACM was working with 30 years ago, but now the system's not
the point, or not as much the point as it was then.  I don't think Berne
cares too much about "innovation", but I do think he was motivated by
ennui to make music that sounded like nothing had before.  And he
succeeded.

I think of Berne's music, at its best, as being a great meeting place
for things I can find in more "pure" abundance elsewhere, but in
exclusive abundance.  Energy: Brotzmann.  Intricately composed systems
for working groups: Braxton.  Radical juxtapositions of noise, genre,
and style: John Zorn.  Funky Butt: Maceo parker/F. Wesley/JBs.  I find
all that here.

However, the bottom line is that if you aren't getting much out of
something, great.  That's what plurality is for.  And damn, most of us
on this list will NEVER BE ABLE TO ACQUIRE half the music we might
really enjoy.  That's depressing yet exhilarating.  I'd encourage anyone
to get and keep at least one of the Bloodcount Paris recordings, as they
are landmarks of jazz next to which most of Berne's other stuff pales
(IMNSHO).

Plus Jim Black's a damn good drummer.  And Chris Speed's kind of cute.

\Apologies to Mike for the bandwidth-buster.  thank you for reading
this!

-scott





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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Cobra And Games
Date: 13 Aug 1998 14:48:30 EDT

I know that the list has gone over this topic several times, but i still don't
feel that an accurate definition of the games has been presented. In no way or
form do I understand the graph inside of the Hat release of Cobra, and i would
really like to get an idea on how to perform one of these pieces, or at least
know how they are assembled. Does anyone have any information?

from,
matt

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From: [e-mail] (Theo Klaase)
Subject: Zappa
Date: 13 Aug 1998 14:26:29 -0500 (CDT)

I tend to lean toward the later offerings by Zappa.  Especially when he
used the Synclavier Machine to perform the music.  To hear the
Synclavier in top form check out "Jazz from Hell", "Mothers of
Prevention", and yes "Civilization part 3".   The band he used from '73
to '77 was arguably the best at his disposal but I often prefer the
songs that the '88 band did.  Hey, to each his own.  I like Zorn's stuff
better though.   More room for improve and hypnotic trance shit.  More
alive, I thiink.


-Theo


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From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: new Blind Idiot God out?
Date: 13 Aug 1998 14:20:17 -0700


    Few month ago, somebody mentioned a new Blind Idiot God record to
be released on Avant:

?? - ROCK: Blind Idiot God (1998 - Avant, Avan ?? (CD))

Has anybody seen it?

    Thanks,

    Patrice.

PS: this is not a catch; I am just curious to know if it is out or not.

-



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From: "Benito Vergara" <[e-mail]>
Subject: weird little boy
Date: 13 Aug 1998 14:38:54 -0700

Hey folks,

Did any of you happen to spot the posting on alt.noise by someone named
"Trey" about a week ago? Basically "Trey" (if it really is Trey Spruance)
*completely* trashes "Weird Little Boy" -- he concludes, "Unless wasting
thirty bucks on a turd gives you some kind of sick, giddy
post-modern thrill, avoid this at all costs." (The vitriol goes on and on.)
Can anyone confirm or deny if it was indeed him? Or was I trolled?

I could post the whole message if you folks want (it hardly provoked any
reaction on alt.noise, anyhow).

Later,
Ben

np: john zorn, "pink"

http://www.bigfoot.com/~bvergara/
ICQ# 12832406


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rich Williams <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: zappa
Date: 12 Aug 1998 20:06:16 -0500

[e-mail] wrote:

> Brian Olewnick wrote

> One thing that's struck me as curious: It would seem clear that Zappa's 'Lumpy
> Gravy' (and similar efforts here and there on his early records) was a direct
> antecedant to JZ's cut-up efforts of the mid 80's. To the best of my knowledge,
> Zorn has never acknowledged this. Does anyone know otherwise?

    FWIW, I did once glimpse the famed JZ vinyl collection, and he had most
or all of the early Verve discs.

> >FWIW, I'm a FZ fan up to and including 'Burnt Weenie Sandwich' (with 'Uncle
>
> Meat', my favorite FZ recording). After that point, he bores me to tears.
>
>
>
> interesting. somehow i would have thought there are more out there who thought
> his compositions got more interesting after he stopped using musicians to play
> them.

    I think that is part of what myself, and a lot of others, dislike about
much of FZ's post-Mothers output. The early albums were made by a group
of people who obviously had a ball playing together, where the later
stuff is highly scripted, 100% FZ, and as he readily admitted, Zappa led
a very insulated life. He claimed to have no "friends", only
"employees".  That attitude is bound to find its way into ones art.

> have you checked out civilization phase III? i would say try b4 you buy,
> but check it out.

    I really wanted to like this, but it sounds to me like he re-made Lumpy
Gravy with state of the art digital technology. I would definitely
recommend the live discs that the 1988 touring band made though. They
cover quite a bit of the old repertoire as well as covers of Hendrix,
Stravinsky, and others. And to Brian and others, who prefer the old
stuff, check out the "Lost Episodes" disc. It has some of FZ 's earliest
soundtrack work.
    BTW, The Zappa estate is very open to suggestions of what archival
material to release next, And if enough people request it, maybe someday
we'll see the 75 disc Complete Garrick Theatre 1967 box set...  ;-)


-



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From: "Silent Watcher" <[e-mail]>
Subject: New Blind Idiot God?
Date: 13 Aug 1998 15:17:08 PDT

I think it was me who posted about a new BIG album, after seeing a
listing for it at Music Boulevard, from which it has since disappeared.
I checked around, and someone had a listing for it at gemm.com (it was
called "Rock"), but the catalog number was the same as "Cyclotron".
Didn't Avant give re-releases to some of the older albums in it's
catalog recently, and if so, is it possible that's what it was?

DB
For Sale/Want List & Bill Laswell and Lori Carson Discographys at :
http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Underground/7093

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: ScottRussell <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: weird little boy
Date: 14 Aug 1998 00:05:22 +0100


> Basically "Trey"
> *completely* trashes "Weird Little Boy" --
>
> I could post the whole message if you folks want (it hardly provoked
> any
> reaction on alt.noise, anyhow).
>
    I'd like to see this posting. Considering the rather alarmed
thread that greeted this release on this list I'd like to know what the
beef is?

    Personally I find WLB a perfectly acceptable set of improv/avant
garde noise, not the best I've ever heard but not the worst either. Has
JZ made any comments about it or Spruance's remarks?

    Yours curiously

    Scott Russell


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From: "robert ludington" <[e-mail]>
Subject: God/Lou Ciccotelli
Date: 13 Aug 1998 16:15:56 PDT

     I'm a big fan of God, especially the playing of the
drummer/percussionist Lou Ciccotelli.  I've noticed his influence quite
a bit in my own playing recently, and was wondering if anyone had any
info on him, or any other albums with his playing other than with God?
I've searched the net with little result..... any help would be
appreciated, thanx!

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Two cents on Zappa
Date: 13 Aug 1998 20:12:41 EDT

For what its worth, I wanted to toss in some of my personal observations about
Zappa. I canÆt think of any other artists that I have such polar feelings
about (and I should add, I own every Zappa CD that RykoÆs released, and
several others). Musically, for most of his career, and particularly from the
early æ70Æs on, I feel Frank pushed his work as much as he felt like at the
time and came up with some wonderful results. And I certainly enjoyed that
ride. I could pick any 5-year period from his output and point to something
inspiring from each of those periods that I go back to with some regularlity.
But, the big ôhoweverö: I have to completely ignore, and make an effort to
tune out (with a few exceptions) most of what he was doing lyrically. I am
really incensed by the vast majority of his so-called lyrics. As far as IÆm
concerned, he was a one joke lyricist - the kid in junior high school that
thought it was funny to expose himself. I find nearly every social barb in his
lyrics to be offensive, and even worse, not funny. If that was his
intention...IÆd imagine he could have accomplished much the same thing in the
space of one album. Its not the sort of thing I enjoy seeing someone make a
career of. Then again, I pretty much canÆt stand Jim Carrey either, but
evidently a lot of people like him.

Dale.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Benito Vergara" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: weird little boy
Date: 13 Aug 1998 17:17:16 -0700

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail]
> [mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of ScottRussell
> Sent: Thursday, August 13, 1998 4:05 PM

>     I'd like to see this posting. Considering the rather alarmed
> thread that greeted this release on this list I'd like to know what the
> beef is?

Here ya go: unedited, copied right out of alt.noise. As mentioned earlier,
disclaimers about the truth of the identity of the poster apply:

On Fri, 07 Aug 1998 00:05:46 -0700, in alt.noise Trey
<[e-mail]> wrote:

>Please heed the warnings on this group about the worthless shlock CD
>entitled "Weird Little Boy" and DON'T BUY IT!
>
>I know: I played on the piece of shit. I wish I had'nt.
>It was recorded years ago, and what started off as an OK idea (Zorn,
>Cochrane and myself writing short pieces for each other to be composed,
>recorded and mixed in one day) degenerated into a "scene" jerkoff/hardee
>har har/are'nt we clever/party as it somehow magically stareted to
>incorporate more and more 'big name' people as the day went on.
>The result is totally useless and pathetic.
>
>I take responsibility for being lame enough to be involved in this kind
>of thing ("never again", as they say), but I am shocked at the LOW LINE
>drawn in the Zorn quality control department. And to marry this lump of
>aural dogshit to such great packaging is an inexcusable offense, I
>think.
>
>Yeah, some giddy newcomers to "experimental" music might find layers of
>subversive irony within it, what with all the 'big names' engaging in
>pure musical vacuity along with the additional "absurdity" of it being
>retailed at such a high price. Besides, "There HAS to be something to
>it", otherwise we're not as smart as we thought we were for BUYING it.
>Hmm...  I think most of us have had enough of that kind of thing.
>
>Unless wasting thirty bucks on a turd gives you some kind of sick, giddy
>post-modern thrill, avoid this at all costs.
>
>
>-t


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: ScottRussell <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: weird little boy
Date: 14 Aug 1998 02:13:27 +0100

    I think these comments bring up some interesting points.

    Assuming it IS Trey Spruance (and why would anyone bother
inventing this?) are we to dismiss the thing entirely because one of the
participants is unhappy with it?

    If you actually like the music on WLB are you stupid or is there
'something to it'?

> >Yeah, some giddy newcomers to "experimental" music
>
I am neither giddy nor a newcomer to experimental music and, like I said
before, it isn't the best example of this kind of thing... but neither
is it the worst.

> might find layers of
> >subversive irony within it,
>
I thought there were some interesting textures and soundscapes going on.
Many of which have resemblances to pieces on other Zorn albums, am I to
infer I might be getting 'ripped off' there too?

> Besides, "There HAS to be something to
> >it", otherwise we're not as smart as we thought we were for BUYING
> it.
> >Hmm...  I think most of us have had enough of that kind of thing.
>
    As it happens I got it by accident and I was expecting it to be
bad.

    I buy a great deal of experimental music and generally have no
problem discarding stuff I don't connect with. Of course not being there
when it was done, it's impossible to tell much about the atmosphere of
the event nor the motives of those involved but since this album doesn't
sound (to me at least) as superficial and cynical as Spruance suggests,
I wonder how to bridge the gap between the expectation of the performer
and the actuality of the performance?

    Scott



-



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From: Brian Olewnick <[e-mail]>
Subject: Michel Godard
Date: 13 Aug 1998 21:11:02 -0400

Relistening to the second disc of the La Banda album a few times, I've
come around to enjoy it more and more, especially the piece by French
tubaist Michel Godard. Is anyone familiar with his other work? I know
he's appeared on some of those jazz/Arabic melds on Enja, the ones in
the leatherette sleeves, but I haven't gotten around to checking them
out yet (the current-Summer-issue of Avant has an intriguing review of
one of them).

Thanks,

Brian Olewnick

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re:  God/Lou Ciccotelli
Date: 14 Aug 1998 00:21:45 EDT

<<I'm a big fan of God, especially the playing of the
drummer/percussionist Lou Ciccotelli.  I've noticed his influence quite
a bit in my own playing recently, and was wondering if anyone had any
info on him, or any other albums with his playing other than with God?>>

Ciccotelli is on the recently released Mass on Paratactile, which is a power
trio with Gary Smith on guitar. He's also on Gary Smith's Stereo on
Chronoscope, which is also a guitar trio record. Both of these should be
available through Forced Exposure (www.fe.org) or North Country
(www.cadencebuilding.com).

Jon

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Scott Handley" <[e-mail]>
Subject: re: weird little boy
Date: 13 Aug 1998 21:30:12 PDT

Not that any of this matters at ALL, but I learned about Iancu
Dumitrescu on the Secret Chiefs Trio's Web of Mimicry website.
Insofar as perpetual outrage can be stylistic, the anti-Zorn, anti-
Downtown invective on that site sure sounded like the alt.noise post.
Is it a "Chief"?  Is it Trey Spruance?  Hmmm...
I don't care.  But the breathless kudos to Dumitrescu are fun to read
and I
guess they guided me toward him.
--scott

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joe Weil <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: God/Lou Ciccotelli
Date: 13 Aug 1998 23:57:12 -0500 (EST)

This list is not complete but is what I am aware of as far
as Lou Ciccotelli playing.
1. Slab!
2. God
3. Ice
4. Laika
5. Gary Smith
6. Mass

Good luck finding any Slab!. Some of the Ice may be on Big Cat, Under
the Skin. I think Lou played on most of the Laika releases except
maybe the last one and they are on Too Pure. 5 and 6 can be acquired
through Forced Exposure, as stated earlier.

Any advice on how to get the Ethiopiques vol 1-4 on Buda Musique?
thanks
jw


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Michael Howes <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: God/Lou Ciccotelli
Date: 13 Aug 1998 22:17:06 -0700

>This list is not complete but is what I am aware of as far
>as Lou Ciccotelli playing.
>1. Slab!
>2. God
>3. Ice
>4. Laika
>5. Gary Smith
>6. Mass

 Hmm...I'm a HUGE fan of God, Ice, and Laika and have most everything
they've each released (mostly because of the Justin Broadrick connection)
but I've never even heard of Slab!, Gary Smith or Mass...so what do these
sound like?

 thanks
mike
[e-mail]




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: BJOERN <[e-mail]>
Subject: weird little boy
Date: 14 Aug 1998 13:49:15 +0200 (MEST)

> Did any of you happen to spot the posting on alt.noise by someone named
> "Trey" about a week ago? Basically "Trey" (if it really is Trey Spruance)
> *completely* trashes "Weird Little Boy" -- he concludes, "Unless wasting
> thirty bucks on a turd gives you some kind of sick, giddy
> post-modern thrill, avoid this at all costs." (The vitriol goes on and on.)
> Can anyone confirm or deny if it was indeed him? Or was I trolled?
>
yes thats him...in a private email he warned me to buy it since he called
it complete shit and a goddamn waste of money

BJOERN
www.cityinfonetz.de/uni/homepage/bjoern.eichstaedt


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Marc Downing <[e-mail]>
Subject: cobra review
Date: 14 Aug 1998 08:55:18 -0400

A review of Cobra, seen at Tonic by a NYC friend:

     I went to see Zorn's Cobra last night...it was
     fascinating.  A dozen musicians sat in a semi-circle around John, who
     stood before a table covered with 20 mysteriously coded flashcards.
     They would all gesture excitedly with strange handsignals to each
     other, playing in response to the cards, the noise operating on some
     loosely controlled chaos theorum.  (is that possible?)  The silliness
     escalated, as headbands were incorporated into the code; everyone was
     laughing and snorting through their instruments, frantically putting
     on their headgear in time, while making music that will never be heard
     again.  Some people I haven't seen before:  David Shea, Vernon Reid,
     others that escape my memory.  A man with three didgeridoos.  It was
     good fun.  Afterward as I was standing amongst a crowd outside having
     a cigarette, someone starting hurling eggs at us from some unseen
     height; lethal yolked missiles crashed on the sidewalk at great
     speeds, sounding quite unlike eggs.  Luckily no one was hit (again,
     chaos theorum).
     Those chickens were definately never meant to survive.





-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Two cents on Zappa
Date: 14 Aug 1998 09:47:29 -0500



     > I have to completely ignore, and make an effort to tune out (with a
     >few exceptions) most of what he was doing lyrically. I am really
     >incensed by the vast majority of his so-called lyrics. As far as I'm
     >concerned, he was a one joke lyricist - the kid in junior high school
     >that thought it was funny to expose himself. I find nearly every
     >social barb in his lyrics to be offensive, and even worse, not funny.
     >If that was his intention...

     Dale,

     Good points, though again I'd differentiate, at least a bit, between
     pre and post-1971. For example, the lyrics (and, in fact, the whole
     concept) of 'We're Only In It For the Money' are some of the most
     prescient (and funny) I've ever heard on a rock album, especially
     considering the time and milieu in which it was recorded. I only
     became aware of Zappa about two years after this release, but I can
     imagine the effect this had on the hippie community, who doubtless
     thought this freak was one of their own. I daresay it helped foster my
     own eventual disgust at the whole notion of fashion with lines that
     hit very close to home at the time like, "Oh, my hair's getting good
     in the back."

     Not that they quite qualify as lyrics, but two other eye openers were
     1) Jimmy Carl Black's dead honest whining about not getting paid on
     'Uncle Meat' and 2) the single most honest and trenchant comment I've
     ever heard from a "rock star": Zappa's "uniform" remark on BWS.

     Brian Olewnick



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: God/Lou Ciccotelli
Date: 14 Aug 1998 07:56:23 -0700


On Fri, 14 Aug 1998 00:21:45 EDT  [e-mail] wrote:
>
> Ciccotelli is on the recently released Mass on Paratactile, which is a power
> trio with Gary Smith on guitar. He's also on Gary Smith's Stereo on
        ^^^^^^^^^^

Gary Smith on a power trio?

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: God/Lou Ciccotelli
Date: 14 Aug 1998 11:06:38 EDT

<<On Fri, 14 Aug 1998 00:21:45 EDT  [e-mail] wrote:
>
> Ciccotelli is on the recently released Mass on Paratactile, which is a power
> trio with Gary Smith on guitar. He's also on Gary Smith's Stereo on
        ^^^^^^^^^^

Gary Smith on a power trio?

    Patrice.>>

from the Forced Exposure web site:

Gary Smith-Stereo (Chronoscope)-Studio trio album led by this UK improvising
guitarist. A much expanded sound compared to his previous albums on Impetus
(solo) and Ecstatic Peace! (duo with John Stevens); this is loud, aggressive
instrumental trio action, at times in an almost Caspar Brotzmann-like mold,
with Dave Sturt (bass) & Lou Ciccotelli (drums).

and Gary Smith-Mass (Paratactile)-Debut release by this new UK power trio, led
by guitarist Gary Smith (previous releases on Ecstatic Peace, Chronoscope &
Impetus. "...the earthquaking, sky-kissing beauty of Mass music, a place where
the
dissonant country blues of Son House and Charlie Patton meet the rattled black
space of early electronic composition and the scorched earth improvisations of
Fushitsusha and Tony Williams' Lifetime." David Keenan/The Wire.

Jon

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Charles Gillett" <[e-mail]>
Subject: re: weird little boy
Date: 14 Aug 1998 10:30:06 +0000

On Thu, 13 Aug 1998 21:30:12 PDT, "Scott Handley" wrote:
> Not that any of this matters at ALL, but I learned about Iancu
> Dumitrescu on the Secret Chiefs Trio's Web of Mimicry website.
> Insofar as perpetual outrage can be stylistic, the anti-Zorn, anti-
> Downtown invective on that site sure sounded like the alt.noise post.
> Is it a "Chief"?  Is it Trey Spruance?  Hmmm...

   DejaNews brings up five posts by "mimicry@*," three of which are
from [e-mail] and the balance from [e-mail]
(the address given at Spruance's webpage).  He seems bitter about
Zorn, and I quote: (from http://www.humboldt1.com/~mimicry, verbatim,
wherein he reviews "Angelus Novus")
-----------
The other pieces on the CD are also a noticeable cut above quality-wise
from what we have all come to expect from this Tycoon of the Avant-
Garde. It's reassuring that amid the and very understandable complaints
of Zorn's "Overly Influential" presence in modern music, he has managed
to prove (to me at least) with this CD that he is well deserving of
some high praise. Besides, at this point I doubt that very many
Zornophile's, considering their average mentality, would note the
difference in quality between this CD and, say, Weird Little Boy.
So hey, who said Zorn couldn't spring a GREAT album on his "buy
everything" contingent now and then?
-----------

   He goes on to say "Perhaps the "niche" we are attempting to reach
is the small but ever-growing number of people who have grown
disillusioned with the whole Zorn/Downtown scene for it's lack of
worthwhile recordings."  Obviously he has mixed feelings.  I am
finding more anti-"downtown" talk out there nowadays (it seems like
Walter Horn reviews "downtown" CDs for Cadence just so he can insult
them), but I'm not sure if it's mostly from conservative jazz fans
or disillusioned former-"downtown" fans.

   I think his comments regarding the poor quality of "WLB" are
funny, considering I just finished waiting for the newest Secret
Chiefs 3 album to end--maybe Zorn and those nasty "downtown"
people aren't the problem with "WLB."  If overdubbed guitars
(and guitar-related instruments) cavorting aimlessly with drums
in a field of juvenile tape manipulations while pretending to be
Sun City Girls sounds appealing, "Hurqalya" by Secret Chiefs 3
might be for you.


-- Charles


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zappa lyrics
Date: 14 Aug 1998 12:52:12 -0400 (EDT)


When I first heard Zappa in 1966 and saw him in 1967 I figured at last=20
here was someone who was able to bring together all the strands of=20
instrumental virtuosity of jazz, the power of rock and social commentary=20
and serve it up in a package everyone would "get".

I saw the early versions of the Mothers and felt things still worked up to=
=20
and including "Hot Rats". After that live and on disc Zappa turned into a=
=20
parody of himself lyrically, relying on the sort of pee pee jokes that=20
would amuse the teenage crowd.

However I still think that "Freak Out", "Absolutely Free" and "We're Only=
=20
In It For the Money" had memorable, satiric and, dare I say, important=20
lyrics for the time. You have to remember that FZ was mocking the mass=20
passivity of hippies and others *before* most people even knew who=20
hippies were.

Ken Waxman
[e-mail]


On Thu, 13 Aug 1998 [e-mail] wrote:

>
=94: I have to completely ignore, and make an effort to
> tune out (with a few exceptions) most of what he was doing lyrically. I a=
m
> really incensed by the vast majority of his so-called lyrics. As far as I=
=92m
> concerned, he was a one joke lyricist - the kid in junior high school tha=
t
> thought it was funny to expose himself. I find nearly every social barb i=
n his
> lyrics to be offensive, and even worse, not funny. If that was his
> intention...I=92d imagine he could have accomplished much the same thing =
in the
> space of one album.=20

>=20
>=20
> -
>=20
>=20

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: zorn related films
Date: 14 Aug 1998 12:28:44 -0500

hi. has anyone either seen any of these films or have a copy of any of these
films. thanks
jason

"RISING TONE CROSS"- jazz film by Ebba Jahn
119 mins. English & German w/ subtitles

"OSAKA BONDAGE"- Henry Hills
Music by Naked City
available through Film Makers Coop.

"MONEY"- Henry Hills 16mm film available on VHS tape

"STEP ACROSS THE BORDER"- Nicolas Humber & Werner Penzel

"ART OF MEMORY"- Johanna Heer. German Director

"LE 2EME JOUR"- Robert Cahn. 9mins
made for zorn's "hommage a godard" music

"THE ELEGANT SPANKING"- Maria Beatty & Rosemary Delain
music by john zorn

"CYNICAL HYSTERIE HOUR"-japanese cartoons
music by john zorn


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Brad Elsie" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: God/Lou Ciccotelli
Date: 14 Aug 1998 10:40:58 PDT



>From [e-mail] Thu Aug 13 22:02:10 1998
>Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 1.82 #1)
>    id 0z7BvV-00005d-00; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 22:57:21 -0600
>Received: from (pasture.ecn.purdue.edu) [128.46.199.85]
>    by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 1.82 #1)
>    id 0z7BvT-00005Q-00; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 22:57:19 -0600
>Received: (from weilj@localhost)
>    by pasture.ecn.purdue.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8moyman) id XAA17601;
>    Thu, 13 Aug 1998 23:57:12 -0500 (EST)
>Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 23:57:12 -0500 (EST)
>From: Joe Weil <[e-mail]>
>Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail], [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: God/Lou Ciccotelli
>Sender: [e-mail]
>Precedence: bulk
>
>This list is not complete but is what I am aware of as far
>as Lou Ciccotelli playing.
>1. Slab!
>2. God
>3. Ice
>4. Laika
>5. Gary Smith
>6. Mass
>
>Good luck finding any Slab!. Some of the Ice may be on Big Cat, Under
>the Skin. I think Lou played on most of the Laika releases except
>maybe the last one and they are on Too Pure. 5 and 6 can be acquired
>through Forced Exposure, as stated earlier.
>
Lou did not appear on any Ice releases that I am aware of. John Jobaggy
was the percussionist in Ice, performing with Kevin Martin, Justin
Broadrick, Dave Cochrane (Sweet Tooth, Head Of David)and Alex Buess
(16/17). "Under The Skin" is on Pathological and "Quarantine" is on
Carcrashh.

Kevin, Justin and Dave are members of God. CDs are on Big Cat and
Virgin. Zorn appears on "Possession" on 3 tracks. God's "Appeal To Human
Greed" remix CD is great. It features remixes by Bill Laswell and Kevin
Shields of My Bloody Valentine.

>Any advice on how to get the Ethiopiques vol 1-4 on Buda Musique?
>thanks
>jw
>
>
>-
>
>


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Caleb Deupree <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Two cents on Zappa
Date: 14 Aug 1998 13:37:06 -0400

>>>>> "Brian" == brian olewnick <[e-mail]> writes:

    Brian>      Good points, though again I'd differentiate, at least
    Brian> a bit, between pre and post-1971.

In addition to 'only money', I also remember fondly the lyrics to
Trouble Every Day from Freak Out (FZ's comments on the Watts Riots)
and the satire on Absolutely Free.  My wife (originally from the boot
hill of Missouri -- still a conservative religious backwater in the
1960s) and I were reminiscing a while back about what we listened to
as early teens.  Her jaw dropped at Absolutely Free and made the
comment that they would have burned that record in Missouri.  While
these are the same subjects and potty humor that FZ continued to
inject, the later lyrics are simply crude and don't contain the satire
that characterized the first three Mothers albums.

---
Caleb T. Deupree
;; Opinions...  funny thing about opinions, they can change.

Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers.
(Pablo Picasso)


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Dave Trenkel)
Subject: Re: God/Lou Ciccotelli
Date: 14 Aug 1998 12:25:22 -0700

At 7:56 AM 8/14/98, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:
>On Fri, 14 Aug 1998 00:21:45 EDT  [e-mail] wrote:
>>
>> Ciccotelli is on the recently released Mass on Paratactile, which is a power
>> trio with Gary Smith on guitar. He's also on Gary Smith's Stereo on
>            ^^^^^^^^^^
>
>Gary Smith on a power trio?
>
>        Patrice.

There was a cut by Mass on a Wire magazine compilation from a few months
ago. The liner notes built it up to sound like the best free-improv rock
power trio ever, but the track just didn't do it for me. Certainly doesn't
touch Arcana's last Wave, or even the Derek and the Ruins CD, IMHO. Have
not heard anything else by Gary Smith, though.

________________________________________________________
Dave Trenkel : [e-mail]  : www.peak.org/~improv/

"...there will come a day when you won't have to use
gasoline. You'd simply take a cassette and put it in
your car, let it run. You'd have to have the proper
type of music. Like you take two sticks, put 'em
together, make fire. You take some notes and rub 'em
together - dum, dum, dum, dum - fire, cosmic fire."
                                            -Sun Ra
________________________________________________________



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Felix" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: weird little boy
Date: 14 Aug 1998 20:27:11 +0200



> I think these comments bring up some interesting points.
>
> Assuming it IS Trey Spruance (and why would anyone bother
>inventing this?) are we to dismiss the thing entirely because one of the
>participants is unhappy with it?
>
> If you actually like the music on WLB are you stupid or is there
>'something to it'?


I bought Weird Little Boy some while ago, and my opinion on it was varied.
First, I though to myself "weird, simply weird", then I started ditching the
album, finding flaws everywhere, but then I started liking it. The album is
good (for me, anyway, regardless of what Spruance says), but I think that
part of what makes it special is the text by Dennis Cooper. I think that the
album would be something else without the text. It helps alot when listening
to the music to know what the music is about. It had some disappointments -
I was expecting something completely different from that set of musicians,
and most people were probably expecting something in the lines of Mr.
Bungle. So part of what people see in the album as bad is their
disappointment towards what they expected.

Anyway, you've seen how Mr. Bungle have changed from the self-titled to
Disco Volante, perhaps their next album will be a disappointment also, while
Spruance might think of it as their master-piece. You can never know.
Anyway, the way Spruance speaks, it seems as though the guy was forced to do
the album. There were five musicians, he was one of them, he could have
said: "this is shit, lets not do this.", but no, he releases the album, and
THEN he starts bitching about how bad an album it was and how no one should
buy it. I wonder it Trey is one of those anti-Zorn-ists working
infiltrated...

Felix
[e-mail]




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: weird little boy
Date: 14 Aug 1998 13:27:38 -0700


On Fri, 14 Aug 1998 20:27:11 +0200  "Felix" wrote:
>
> > I think these comments bring up some interesting points.
> >
> > Assuming it IS Trey Spruance (and why would anyone bother
> >inventing this?) are we to dismiss the thing entirely because one of the
> >participants is unhappy with it?
> >
> > If you actually like the music on WLB are you stupid or is there
> >'something to it'?

I think it is pretty clear from Trey's comment that the problem he has with
the record is well beyond what we (the public) see in it: the music.

I assume that something went wrong between him and Zorn (or between him and
Patton, since John and Mike are good pals).

The bitterness of his mail reminds me of a couple which splits. We are
always hearing the trouble from the victim's side :-).

But there is some truth in what he says: who has a clue if some improv/noise
is great or crap? For some people (the "dogmatic") it is good by definition
(or the question about "good" and "bad" is irrelevant). And the vast majority
does not even care of the genre (and they would not believe, anyway, that you
can even make music which is 100% improvised or noise :-). The result?
Zillions of records that are "great" and very few that ten years after you
really remember or put on your turntable...

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: ScottRussell <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: weird little boy
Date: 14 Aug 1998 21:35:53 +0100


> I bought Weird Little Boy some while ago, and my opinion on it was
> varied.
> First, I though to myself "weird, simply weird", then I started
> ditching the
> album, finding flaws everywhere, but then I started liking it. The
> album is
> good (for me, anyway, regardless of what Spruance says), but I think
> that
> part of what makes it special is the text by Dennis Cooper. I think
> that the
> album would be something else without the text. It helps alot when
> listening
> to the music to know what the music is about.
>
How much is the music related to the text? It would seem that the music
is quite old, was the text for it conceived at the same time?

>  It had some disappointments -
> I was expecting something completely different from that set of
> musicians,
> and most people were probably expecting something in the lines of Mr.
> Bungle. So part of what people see in the album as bad is their
> disappointment towards what they expected.
>
    I guess if you were expecting a Mr Bungle/Naked City type rave
up you'd be disappointed but to people used to hearing the likes of Fred
Frith, Derek Bailey, Henry Kaiser, Spontaneous Music Ensemble, Nurse
With Wound etc it isn't at all weird.

> Anyway, the way Spruance speaks, it seems as though the guy was forced
> to do
> the album. There were five musicians, he was one of them, he could
> have
> said: "this is shit, lets not do this.", but no, he releases the
> album, and
>
I rather got the impression Zorn released it but I may be wrong.

> THEN he starts bitching about how bad an album it was and how no one
> should
> buy it.
>
Could be it was hanging about in the vaults and he never expected it to
be released at all. There seems to be a growing trend for cd issues of
'lost' home made tapes which are hailed as underground masterpieces but
are actually just guys jerking off. It would seem that Spruance feels
this way about WLB.

Scott


> -
>

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: weird little boy
Date: 14 Aug 1998 13:41:07 -0700


On Fri, 14 Aug 1998 21:35:53 +0100  ScottRussell wrote:
>
> Could be it was hanging about in the vaults and he never expected it to
> be released at all. There seems to be a growing trend for cd issues of
> 'lost' home made tapes which are hailed as underground masterpieces but
> are actually just guys jerking off. It would seem that Spruance feels
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Do you have anything in mind when writing that? That's exactly what I felt
with LES EVENING GOWNS DAMNEES (56 LUDLOW STREET 1962-1964) by Jack Smith.
My most embarrasssing record buy in ages.

> this way about WLB.

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: ScottRussell <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: weird little boy
Date: 14 Aug 1998 21:50:01 +0100

    Idefinitely agree with Patrice here.

> I think it is pretty clear from Trey's comment that the problem he has
> with
> the record is well beyond what we (the public) see in it: the music.
>
> But there is some truth in what he says: who has a clue if some
> improv/noise
> is great or crap?
>
    I think this is true of any kind of abstract art. It doesn't
rely on established benchmarks so we only have gut feelings and
intuition to discern that what we're hearing or seeing is of some value
and not just some kind of hoax.

    Even so, a hoax could be art too...

    Scott
> -
>

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: ScottRussell <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: weird little boy
Date: 14 Aug 1998 21:57:28 +0100



> On Fri, 14 Aug 1998 21:35:53 +0100  ScottRussell wrote:
> >
> > Could be it was hanging about in the vaults and he never expected it
> to
> > be released at all. There seems to be a growing trend for cd issues
> of
> > 'lost' home made tapes which are hailed as underground masterpieces
> but
> > are actually just guys jerking off. It would seem that Spruance
> feels
>     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> Do you have anything in mind when writing that?
>
I didn't have a specific recording in mind though I have recently
acquired Smegma meets Wild Man Fischer and have a suspicion that I'm
just listening to drivel and not great outsider art that has deep things
to say about our fractured psyches...

Looking at sites such as Forced Exposure one can see this trend growing;
see recordings by Sun City Girls, lost electronic works etc etc I'm not
criticisng either of these outfits but one can see the danger in
overdoing the obscurity value of these things.

> That's exactly what I felt
> with LES EVENING GOWNS DAMNEES (56 LUDLOW STREET 1962-1964) by Jack
> Smith.
> My most embarrasssing record buy in ages.
>
Can you give me some idea what this is like? I've seen it about but
haven't had the nerve to get it. I just got a copy of Smith's collected
writings, Meet Me at the Bottom of the Pool.

Scott

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: weird little boy
Date: 14 Aug 1998 13:56:33 -0700


On Fri, 14 Aug 1998 21:50:01 +0100  ScottRussell wrote:
>
>     Idefinitely agree with Patrice here.
>
> > I think it is pretty clear from Trey's comment that the problem he has
> > with
> > the record is well beyond what we (the public) see in it: the music.
> >
> > But there is some truth in what he says: who has a clue if some
> > improv/noise
> > is great or crap?
> >
>     I think this is true of any kind of abstract art. It doesn't
> rely on established benchmarks so we only have gut feelings and
> intuition to discern that what we're hearing or seeing is of some value
> and not just some kind of hoax.

Except that the trend these days among inovative music fans is to rank
everything from "good" to "outstanding". Does it really means that every
record out is really so good or simply that by pushing the abstraction so
far, we are left with utter confusion where the reputation of the artist
(cult) and the literacy of his fans (persuasion through intimidation) make
the main difference between an OK and a good product?

    Patrice (who is amazed at how indulgent listeners of "innovative"
      music have became ;-).

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: ScottRussell <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: weird little boy
Date: 14 Aug 1998 22:33:16 +0100


> Except that the trend these days among inovative music fans is to rank
>
> everything from "good" to "outstanding".
>
Very true.

> Does it really means that every
> record out is really so good or simply that by pushing the abstraction
> so
> far, we are left with utter confusion where the reputation of the
> artist
> (cult) and the literacy of his fans (persuasion through intimidation)
> make
> the main difference between an OK and a good product?
>
Very good point. It is becoming increasingly diffcult to distinguish
between a genuine example of pioneering experimental music and the
merely routine. One could also argue about the vailidity of qualitative
expressions like 'good' and 'outstanding'.

I think we are in the middle of a fad and it's going to take a while
until the dust settles, so we can actually see what has value. Don't get
me wrong, I think now is absolutely the best time to be a music lover,
ever! There is so much available and so much great stuff that wasn't
available even a few years ago. But along with this comes the less
attractive things like the persuasion by intimidation Patrice mentions
plus the wretchedness of fashion (John Fahey can apparently do no wrong
now even though he has been turning out astonishing work for 30 years)
and let's not forget the critics who use certain artists for their own
agendas.

Scott

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: weird little boy
Date: 14 Aug 1998 14:38:26 -0700


On Fri, 14 Aug 1998 21:57:28 +0100  ScottRussell wrote:
>
> > That's exactly what I felt
> > with LES EVENING GOWNS DAMNEES (56 LUDLOW STREET 1962-1964) by Jack
> > Smith.
> > My most embarrasssing record buy in ages.
> >
> Can you give me some idea what this is like? I've seen it about but
> haven't had the nerve to get it. I just got a copy of Smith's collected
> writings, Meet Me at the Bottom of the Pool.

I am only judging from a music point of view (hey! the record is advertized
as featuring John Cale, Tony Conrad, etc). A sloppy reading of texts with
some sounds in the background. The sound is abominable, but this has never
prevented me from appreciating a record... What is even worse, for me, is
that I find the voice of Jack Smith unbearable... Which means that I can't
even appreciate the voice as an instrument (give me Bryon Gysin everyday!!!).

There is still a possibility that the texts are outstanding, and they would
have to be really exceptional to compensate for the mediocrity (to say the
least) of the music and interpretation.

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Caleb Deupree <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: weird little boy
Date: 14 Aug 1998 17:48:01 -0400

>>>>> "Patrice" == Patrice L Roussel <[e-mail]> writes:

    Patrice> Except that the trend these days among innovative music
    Patrice> fans is to rank everything from "good" to
    Patrice> "outstanding". Does it really means that every record out
    Patrice> is really so good or simply that by pushing the
    Patrice> abstraction so far, we are left with utter confusion
    Patrice> where the reputation of the artist (cult) and the
    Patrice> literacy of his fans (persuasion through intimidation)
    Patrice> make the main difference between an OK and a good
    Patrice> product?

At some point we as innovative music fans are obliged to stop being
cultists and seek out stuff we've never heard before.  We acquire
compilations on new labels, find new suppliers, read new magazines,
keep looking for something that doesn't sound like what we've already
got.  If the only innovative artist we seek out is JZ, we are slaves
to fashion and might as well be listening to David Bowie (creative and
inventive, but solidly entrenched in the Pop Music System).

IMHO, JZ is no longer an artist whose every release breaks new ground.
He's got too much stuff in the vaults and is so prolific that I don't
even try to keep up with him anymore.  There's too many creative
musicians for me to become a completist on JZ.  Part of the
frustration I expressed this past week over Filmworks III is that
these sketches have a much shorter shelf life than his major works
(leave aside for the moment what those might be).

And really, he's allowed to make a lousy record once in a while.
Maybe WLB was fun to make, maybe in combination with the artwork it's
more than the sum of its parts.  Maybe it's just a lousy record.

---
Caleb T. Deupree
;; Opinions...  funny thing about opinions, they can change.

Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers.
(Pablo Picasso)


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dan Hewins <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: New MMW
Date: 14 Aug 1998 16:51:13 -0500

Make that DJ Logic instad of DJ Olive...



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: SUGAR in their vitamins? <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: God/Lou Ciccotelli
Date: 14 Aug 1998 14:51:42 -0700 (PDT)

On Fri, 14 Aug 1998, Brad Elsie wrote:

> Kevin, Justin and Dave are members of God. CDs are on Big Cat and
> Virgin.

don't forget the releases on
Situation Two ("Breach Birth"),
Permis de Construire ("Loco")
and Sentrax ("Consumed").
as far as i know, Justin Broadrick
was not a central member of
GOD up until release of
"Anatomy of Addiction". rather,
it's a project between Kevin Martin,
Dave Cochrane, Lou Ciccotelli
and Tim Hodgkinson. you'll notice
Broadrick isn't even present for
"Breach Birth", "Loco" or "Consumed"
but he may have produced
"Breach Birth".

for more information, check out

Crumbling Flesh
www.albany.edu/~te0011/godflesh.html

Avalanche
www.avalanche.demon.co.uk
(Justin Broadrick's official website)

hasta.

Yes.  Beautiful, wonderful nature.  Hear it sing to us: *snap*  Yes.  natURE.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joe Weil <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: God/Lou Ciccotelli
Date: 14 Aug 1998 17:13:38 -0500 (EST)

I think J. Flesh may have also produced Loco as well as
Breached Birth.
Does anybody know if Martin and Broadrick spent time in
Head of David together?
jw

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Jason J. Tar" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Ice/Lou Ciccotelli
Date: 14 Aug 1998 22:14:24 -0400

At 02:53 PM 8/14/98 -0600, you wrote:
>Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 10:40:58 PDT
>From: "Brad Elsie" <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Re: God/Lou Ciccotelli
>Lou did not appear on any Ice releases that I am aware of.

He is on the new Ice album _Bad Blood_, along with Kevin Martin, Justin
Broadrick, Dave Cochrane, Scott Harding and guests (including DJ Vadim,
Sensational, A-Cyde, Sebestian Laws, Toastie Taylor, Blixa Bargeld, El-P,
and Priest).  [If most of those guest names are unawares to you, they are
rappers from the likes of New Kingdom, Company Flow, Anti-Pop Collective,
Jungle Brothers, and New Flesh 4 Old.]

---
Peace Hugs and Unity            Jason J. Tar
        W.    W.    J.    D?
                  (What would Jason Do?)
      http://pilot.msu.edu/user/tarjason
              ICQ@13792120

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Claudio Koremblit" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Experimenta return to the war
Date: 14 Aug 1998 23:48:19 -0300

Tomorrow saturday 15 will be the opening of Experimenta 98 in
Buenos Aires, Argentina, with Butch Morris and Experimenta=20
Ensemble making the Conduction # 104.
After many troubles with the City of Buenos Aires that=20
tried to cancell the series in may for problems with
budget, Experimenta got the conditions for make
possible the second year of monthly performances
with artists from all over the world.=20
Here the programation:

Programaci=F3n Experimenta 98,=20
Teatros Sarmiento (agosto) y Regio (septiembre a diciembre):


15 de agosto: BUTCH MORRIS (USA) y Ensamble Experimenta
CASUAL (Hernan Vives, Lucio Capece y Zelmar Sarin) (Argentina) /=20
Adriana de los Santos (Argentina)


12 de Septiembre: LEE RANALDO & WILLIAM HOOKER (USA) y la cineasta LEAH
SINGER / Capricornio (Bl=E9fari-Aldana) (Argentina) /=20
Wenchi Lazo/ Gregorio Kazaroff (Argentina)


16 y 17 de Octubre:=20
BOB OSTERTAG /=20
EUGENE CHADBOURNE /=20
MARK DRESSER  (USA) /=20
Maia Monaco & Barbara Togander (Argentina)
PERCEUM  (Uruguay)/=20
Tato Taborda (Brasil) /=20
Joaquin Orellana (Guatemala)/=20
FRICS (Argentina)



12 y 13 de Diciembre: JOHN ZORN y Masada (USA)/=20
GUY KLUCEVSEK (USA) /=20
MARCELO PERALTA (Argentina)


Any information: [e-mail]
www.datamarkets.com.ar/experimenta







-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: weird little boy
Date: 15 Aug 1998 05:12:28 -0400

> At some point we as innovative music fans are obliged to stop being
> cultists and seek out stuff we've never heard before.  We acquire
> compilations on new labels, find new suppliers, read new magazines,
> keep looking for something that doesn't sound like what we've already
> got.  If the only innovative artist we seek out is JZ, we are slaves
> to fashion and might as well be listening to David Bowie (creative and
> inventive, but solidly entrenched in the Pop Music System).

Isn't fashion -- at some level -- the population's collective impulse to
"keep looking for something that doesn't [look/sound/taste/etc.] like what
we've already got"?

Jim


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:    [e-mail] (Patrick Carey)
Subject: Re: God/Lou Ciccotelli
Date: 15 Aug 1998 07:34:55 -0400

>>This list is not complete but is what I am aware of as far
>>as Lou Ciccotelli playing.
>>1. Slab!
>>2. God
>>3. Ice
>>4. Laika
>>5. Gary Smith
>>6. Mass

>>Good luck finding any Slab!. Some of the Ice may be on Big Cat, Under
>>the Skin. I think Lou played on most of the Laika releases except
>>maybe the last one and they are on Too Pure.

If you mean full-length when you say "last one" ... he is
on that, "Sounds Of The Satellites".


"Brad Elsie" <[e-mail]> replied:

>Lou did not appear on any Ice releases that I am aware of. John Jobaggy
>was the percussionist in Ice, performing with Kevin Martin, Justin
>Broadrick, Dave Cochrane (Sweet Tooth, Head Of David)and Alex Buess
>(16/17). "Under The Skin" is on Pathological and "Quarantine" is on
>Carcrashh.

I was just about to say this ... a little late I guess.  :)
There is also the new Ice, "Bad Blood",  and the one (so far)
promo remix 12", both on Morpheus.

You can replace Ice w/ Eardrum in the above list.  This may even be Lou's
own project, but I'm not sure.  I believe they have 2 12"s out (perhaps
other things?), but I don't own them.  One is called "First Mutations"
and is on Soul Static Sound (may be o/p), and the other has "Circular"
(?) in the title (not sure on the label).


-Patrick



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Alan Lankin <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: seeking info for Myra Melford discography
Date: 15 Aug 1998 15:13:34 -0400

Thanks to those who've responded with information about my Myra Melford
discography.  Updated version 1.4.5 is now posted at
http://home.att.net/~lankina/melford/mm_discography.html.

Alan.

>
> I've recently compiled a discography on jazz pianist Myra Melford and am
> looking for any items I've missed.
>
> I'm especially interested in details of her Nisus tapes.
>
> She performed on Zorn's "Cobra Live."
>
> See http://home.att.net/~lankina/melford/mm_discography.html.
>

--
Alan Lankin
[e-mail]
http://home.att.net/~lankina/jazz

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Michael Howes <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: God/Lou Ciccotelli
Date: 15 Aug 1998 14:05:05 -0700

At 05:13 PM 8/14/98 -0500, Joe Weil wrote:
>I think J. Flesh may have also produced Loco as well as
>Breached Birth.
>Does anybody know if Martin and Broadrick spent time in
>Head of David together?

 Justin appears on "Dustbowl", "The Saveana Mixes", and "White Elephant/The
Peal Sessions".
I don't know which Head of David records Martin appears on..
mike
[e-mail]



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Jeff Schuth" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: weird little boy
Date: 15 Aug 1998 20:56:50 PDT




>Fr
>
>I bought Weird Little Boy some while ago, and my opinion on it was
varied.
>First, I though to myself "weird, simply weird", then I started
ditching the
>album, finding flaws everywhere, but then I started liking it. The
album is
>good (for me, anyway, regardless of what Spruance says), but I think
that
>part of what makes it special is the text by Dennis Cooper. I think
that the
>album would be something else without the text. It helps alot when
listening
>to the music to know what the music is about. It had some
disappointments -
>I was expecting something completely different from that set of
musicians,
>and most people were probably expecting something in the lines of Mr.
>Bungle. So part of what people see in the album as bad is their
>disappointment towards what they expected.
>
>Anyway, you've seen how Mr. Bungle have changed from the self-titled to
>Disco Volante, perhaps their next album will be a disappointment also,
while
>Spruance might think of it as their master-piece. You can never know.
>Anyway, the way Spruance speaks, it seems as though the guy was forced
to do
>the album. There were five musicians, he was one of them, he could have
>said: "this is shit, lets not do this.", but no, he releases the album,
and
>THEN he starts bitching about how bad an album it was and how no one
should
>buy it. I wonder it Trey is one of those anti-Zorn-ists working
>infiltrated...
>
>Felix
>[e-mail]
>
>
>These are some good points Felix.  The one thing that upsets me, is
that Trey insists for us that we are not interested in hearing this
album.  For him it might not be a big deal to have a noisy (and perhaps
worthless) jam session with the likes of Mike Patton, John Zorn, and
William Winant, but personally I'll never come close to hearing anything
like this.  These are some of my favorite musicians, and even if its a
very spontanious album, and yes, perhaps even a joke, I don't regret
purchasing this one.
>
>-
>
>


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Silent Watcher" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Massacre
Date: 15 Aug 1998 21:14:22 PDT

Hello all,

I was hoping that someone on the list could either confirm or deny this
one :

Someone emailed me the other day informing me that his friend ran into
Ted Epstein, who claimed to have been contacted about filling Fred
Maher's shoes on a new Massacre album.  This would be great news - if
it's true. Anyone know?

DB
Bill Laswell and Lori Carson Discographies at:
http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Underground/7093

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: BJOERN <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: weird little boy
Date: 16 Aug 1998 12:29:33 +0200 (MEST)

> I rather got the impression Zorn released it but I may be wrong.
thats what it was like
> Could be it was hanging about in the vaults and he never expected it to
> be released at all. There seems to be a growing trend for cd issues of
> 'lost' home made tapes which are hailed as underground masterpieces but
> are actually just guys jerking off. It would seem that Spruance feels
> this way about WLB.
thats exactly what he thinks.....i'll try to find his mail he send to me
and will forward it to the list as soon as i find it

BJOERN
www.cityinfonetz.de/uni/homepage/bjoern.eichstaedt


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: BJOERN <[e-mail]>
Subject: trey's mail
Date: 16 Aug 1998 12:42:36 +0200 (MEST)

this was sent to me from trey spruance in february:

---------- Forwarded message ----------

> what is that WEIRD LITTLE BOY project like that
> everybody is talking about..can it be compared to anything else i could
> know??

No. Quite frankly it SUCKS! It started out as a good idea and then just
degenerated into a stupid party of moronic done-before's. 1 or 2 OK
moments, but THATS IT!! Buy it if you want to laugh at highbrow
incompetence!!!! I hate it...

Ok, bye bye

Trey

BJOERN
www.cityinfonetz.de/uni/homepage/bjoern.eichstaedt


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: BJOERN <[e-mail]>
Date: 16 Aug 1998 12:44:42 +0200 (MEST)

one more from mr. spruance that might bring some light to all that:


---------- Forwarded message ----------

 Let's get one thing straight - I HATE
FREE IMPROV! :) It's fine and dandy and everything, but I HATE IT!! I am
not simply ignorant of free form stuff, believe me. I am Overfamiliar
with it, and that is why I RENOUNCE it!! But this is just for me, and of
course I encourage you to keep exploring all your horizons. It's ME who
is just burnt on it!

                   =t=

BJOERN
www.cityinfonetz.de/uni/homepage/bjoern.eichstaedt


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: BJOERN <[e-mail]>
Subject: one more
Date: 16 Aug 1998 12:46:57 +0200 (MEST)


On Mon, 23 Mar 1998, trey wrote:
>
> you BUY IT, listen to it, and tell me if that's what I'm thinking! Free
> Improv as a concept obviously does NOT suck, and this album is'nt really
> just another bad free improv record. If it were, I'd just say so and
> leave it at that. BUT, it's not really all just improv, AND it sucks the
> green donkey dicks - so theres really no conveinient recourse to the
> "bad improv" arguement. It's just pure, pretentious shit with no brains,
> thought, feeling or value. At least when improv is like that there's
> always the excuse of "searching for a new medium", and I accept that.
> But no such luck here.

=t=

BJOERN
www.cityinfonetz.de/uni/homepage/bjoern.eichstaedt


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: BJOERN <[e-mail]>
Subject: TS on free improv
Date: 16 Aug 1998 12:53:11 +0200 (MEST)

this one from february 1998 might bring some light to all of it:


 Let's get one thing straight - I HATE
FREE IMPROV! :) It's fine and dandy and everything, but I HATE IT!! I am
not simply ignorant of free form stuff, believe me. I am Overfamiliar
with it, and that is why I RENOUNCE it!! But this is just for me, and of
course I encourage you to keep exploring all your horizons. It's ME who
is just burnt on it!

                   =t=
_______________________________________________________________________

BJOERN
www.cityinfonetz.de/uni/homepage/bjoern.eichstaedt


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: BJOERN <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: weird little boy
Date: 16 Aug 1998 13:07:01 +0200 (MEST)

> At some point we as innovative music fans are obliged to stop being
> cultists and seek out stuff we've never heard before.  We acquire
> compilations on new labels, find new suppliers, read new magazines,
> keep looking for something that doesn't sound like what we've already
> got.  If the only innovative artist we seek out is JZ, we are slaves
> to fashion and might as well be listening to David Bowie (creative and
> inventive, but solidly entrenched in the Pop Music System).
right....i am surprised that there are more people than me on this list
havin this opionion...i didnt care about all the zorn-releases since
angelus novus.....hmmmmm.
> IMHO, JZ is no longer an artist whose every release breaks new ground.
> He's got too much stuff in the vaults and is so prolific that I don't
> even try to keep up with him anymore.  There's too many creative
> musicians for me to become a completist on JZ.
true again...there are so many good records in the world that none of us
will ever have the chance to hear all of them...so why the hell buy all
records that zorn did anything for?
> And really, he's allowed to make a lousy record once in a while.
> Maybe WLB was fun to make, maybe in combination with the artwork it's
> more than the sum of its parts.  Maybe it's just a lousy record.
i bought it some weeks ago and to be honest i listened to the first ten
minutes and since then it hasnt reentered my player...i cant say that it
isnt good after that but it doesnt seem interesting enough to play it
again

BJOERN


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:    [e-mail] (Patrick Carey)
Subject: Re: Ice/God/Lou Ciccotelli
Date: 16 Aug 1998 08:21:08 -0400

"Brad Elsie" <[e-mail]> wrote:

>>Lou did not appear on any Ice releases that I am aware of.

"Jason J. Tar" <[e-mail]> responded:

>He is on the new Ice album _Bad Blood_ ...

Well then, I guess we should just _add_ Eardrum to the
list, and _leave_ Ice in there.  :)

>>1. Slab!
>>2. God
>>3. Ice
>>4. Laika
>>5. Gary Smith
>>6. Mass
  7. Eardrum


-Patrick



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:    [e-mail] (Patrick Carey)
Subject: Re: Head Of David
Date: 16 Aug 1998 08:20:51 -0400

At 05:13 PM 8/14/98 -0500, Joe Weil wrote:

>>I think J. Flesh may have also produced Loco as well as
>>Breached Birth.
>>Does anybody know if Martin and Broadrick spent time in
>>Head of David together?

Michael Howes <[e-mail]> replied:

>Justin appears on "Dustbowl", "The Saveana Mixes", and "White Elephant/
>The Peal Sessions".  I don't know which Head of David records Martin
>appears on..

I'm quite positive that Martin was never in, or appeared as a
guest in HoD.


-Patrick



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Brian Olewnick <[e-mail]>
Subject: Attention NYC Shoppers
Date: 16 Aug 1998 08:48:03 -0400

Two things that might be of interest to NYC z-listers:

1) re: the Brotzmann Octet/Tentet. Tower (East 4th) has it for
$50--Other Music, across the street has it for $30. (The copies, BTW,
are numbered--I got 168, Tower had some in the 700's; does anyone know
how many were pressed?)

2) Other Music also has, in its glass-case section, a copy of  "The John
Zorn Radio Hour"....for $50. I demurred and expect to 'til I hit a large
football pool or something, but could anyone who owns this provide a
review? Also, if anyone's gotten any of the four new Keiji Haino discs
of PSF, I'd be curious to hear about them.

Picked up a few items I haven't listened to yet including Dave Douglas'
'Charm of a Night Sky', Kevin Drumm's self-titled release and John
Wall's 'Fractuur'. Will let you know. The first disc of the Brotz set
had several thrilling moments.

Guy Klucevsek at Tonic last night: Wonderful, heart-felt, deep melodies
from one of the world's finest musicians. I retain my special affinity
for artists stretching boundaries who, to all appearences, look like
they should be working in an accounting department, who could care less
if other people think they're hip or not. Fashion be damned.

Brian Olewnick

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Peter Risser <[e-mail]>
Subject: Trey Spruance
Date: 16 Aug 1998 11:20:08 -0400

I think it's funny he renounces WLB so much, when I thought a number of
moments on SC3's first and a few on the second sound exactly like what he's
renouncing.  LIttle boys with their four-track toys, instead of little boys
with their free-improv toys, I suppose.  But still, the first album is rife
with examples of dorkiness that I can't figure how ever made it to record.

Glass houses and all.

:)

Peter
===
Peter Risser
[e-mail]

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Caleb T. Deupree" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: weird little boy
Date: 16 Aug 1998 14:13:54 -0400

At 05:12 AM 8/15/98 -0400, [e-mail] wrote:
>Isn't fashion -- at some level -- the population's collective impulse to
>"keep looking for something that doesn't [look/sound/taste/etc.] like what
>we've already got"?

Even if we agree with Barthes that fashion consists of imitating what was
at first thought inimitable, my admittedly more cynical view is that
fashion is driven by the big corporations and kept within extremely
controlled boundaries.  If the population really had a collective impulse
to seek out something new, commercial radio wouldn't be as vapid as it is.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: your mail
Date: 16 Aug 1998 16:02:53 -0400 (EDT)


Maybe then he and the other "free form" diletantes, such as Thurston
Moore should leave the music to those who know it and *want* to play it
-- the names Coleman, Taylor, E. Parker, W. Parker, Lowe, Guy, Ware,
Gayle, Bailey, Oxley, Brotzmann come immediately to mind.

Ken Waxman
[e-mail]




On Sun, 16 Aug 1998, BJOERN wrote:

> one more from mr. spruance that might bring some light to all that:
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 02:04:39 -0800
>
>  Let's get one thing straight - I HATE
> FREE IMPROV! :) It's fine and dandy and everything, but I HATE IT!! I am
> not simply ignorant of free form stuff, believe me. I am Overfamiliar
> with it, and that is why I RENOUNCE it!! But this is just for me, and of
> course I encourage you to keep exploring all your horizons. It's ME who
> is just burnt on it!
>
>                    =t=
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>
> BJOERN
> www.cityinfonetz.de/uni/homepage/bjoern.eichstaedt
>
>
> -
>
>

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joe Weil <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Ice/God/Lou Ciccotelli
Date: 16 Aug 1998 16:04:29 -0500 (EST)

Yeah,
I was right and wrong on the Ice. The latest Ice was reviewed in
the Wire and I read his name and associated it with the earlier
releases which he does not play on. Sorry for the inaccuracy.
BTW, has anyone seen the latest Ice, Bad Blood, in the stores?
CDEurope has it for 36US$, too much.

As far as Slab!. It has been awhile since I have heard their stuff.
I would say that you were not missing anything special if you did
not listen to them. I have one 12" (Sanity Allergy) and a CD comp.
(Ship of Fools) which has several songs from each LP they put out.
For the most part, I would describe Slab! as hard rock band with
a funky edge. They don`t get as heavy as GOD but they do have their
moments, _Swithchback Ride_.  I have never read anything about them
in any magazine except for musicians mentioning that they have some
Slab! in their collection, next to Maddona. I think that there were
several members of Slab! who migrated with Lou C. to God but as
flimsy as my mind is with musical arcana I will sift through my
collection before I write any names down.


thanks
jw


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re:
Date: 16 Aug 1998 23:44:46 -0400

I'd be honestly interested in what Spruance has tired of about Free
Improv. Is it the act of performance without an explicit score, or
the cliches that frequently happen in performances, or the minimal
hype surrounding it? I wonder what parameters would need to be
fulfilled in a free improvisation for Spruance to find it worthwhile.

(Might we invite him to this list to discuss it openly, since people are
quoting him and he has net.access?)

BJOERN wrote:
>
> one more from mr. spruance that might bring some light to all that:
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 02:04:39 -0800
>
>  Let's get one thing straight - I HATE
> FREE IMPROV! :) It's fine and dandy and everything, but I HATE IT!! I am
> not simply ignorant of free form stuff, believe me. I am Overfamiliar
> with it, and that is why I RENOUNCE it!! But this is just for me, and of
> course I encourage you to keep exploring all your horizons. It's ME who
> is just burnt on it!

--
---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: weird little boy
Date: 16 Aug 1998 23:58:48 -0400

ScottRussell wrote:

> Very good point. It is becoming increasingly diffcult to distinguish
> between a genuine example of pioneering experimental music and the
> merely routine. One could also argue about the vailidity of qualitative
> expressions like 'good' and 'outstanding'.

What might be the characteristics of a bad experimental music recording?
Would it be a failure to break past cliches (though enough cliches
organized well might instead define a genre), an inability to play the
instruments well, or some other factor? I know that in listening back
to Comma's work, I like some of what we've done better than others,
but it's hard to determine what those factors are.

There is, however, a bit of Emperor's New Clothes about it all. I
recently attended (or perhaps I should say "was held hostage in") an
excruciating Tony Conrad performance here in DC. At the end those who
hadn't fled the room, in talking about it were using kind of polite
niceties. When someone asked me what I though (though not until then)
I said flat out that I thought it was a pretty terrible abuse of an
audience, and that it seemed that Conrad neither knew nor cared how
his performance was perceived. At that point, it was like a dam broke.
*Everyone* who said anything admitted to strongly disliking what they
had just endured, yet no one wanted to be the first to admit not liking
this Advanced Serious piece of High Art.

(BTW, this isn't an off-the-cuff opinion: I have the boxed set and
Slapping Pythagorus, have read a lot about his work, and got to speak
to him for a while before the concert. He certainly has an interesting
story to tell about his adventures some 30 years ago, but his recordings
and performances contradict the musical points he seems to want to be
making in his music.)

Still, there is some valid and possibly wonderful music to be made from
aspect of what he did. A lot of people have taken off from there and run
in good directions.

Hm... I didn't intend for this to turn into a rant...

--
---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: weird little boy
Date: 17 Aug 1998 02:00:53 -0400

> At 05:12 AM 8/15/98 -0400, [e-mail] wrote:
> >Isn't fashion -- at some level -- the population's collective impulse to
> >"keep looking for something that doesn't [look/sound/taste/etc.]
> like what
> >we've already got"?
>
> Even if we agree with Barthes that fashion consists of imitating what was
> at first thought inimitable, my admittedly more cynical view is that
> fashion is driven by the big corporations and kept within extremely
> controlled boundaries.

Hmm... here you seem to equate fashion with mainstream culture, while in
your original post you argued that only buying John Zorn records would make
one a slave to fashion.  What kind of fashion are we talking about?

> If the population really had a collective impulse
> to seek out something new, commercial radio wouldn't be as vapid as it is.

I think it's equally valid to see it the other way around:  when we want to
seek out something new (and I didn't mean to suggest that the "masses" as a
whole rise up to embrace the new David Bowie record), the boundaries of
what most of us are able to find -- as well as the criteria by which we
judge what we find -- are defined by commercial radio.

I just don't see the big difference between listening to commercial radio
to find out about the new David Bowie record and reading Zorn's Top 10 to
find out about, umm, serialist film music of Kazakhstan....


Jim


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: weird little boy
Date: 17 Aug 1998 08:37:43 -0700


On Sun, 16 Aug 1998 14:13:54 -0400  "Caleb T. Deupree" wrote:
>
> At 05:12 AM 8/15/98 -0400, [e-mail] wrote:
> >Isn't fashion -- at some level -- the population's collective impulse to
> >"keep looking for something that doesn't [look/sound/taste/etc.] like what
> >we've already got"?
>
> Even if we agree with Barthes that fashion consists of imitating what was
> at first thought inimitable, my admittedly more cynical view is that
> fashion is driven by the big corporations and kept within extremely
> controlled boundaries.  If the population really had a collective impulse
> to seek out something new, commercial radio wouldn't be as vapid as it is.

There is a simpler explanation to that: people at large might have more
important things to do in their life than looking for the last limited
edition of Merzbow.

Which means that yes, the mainstream media are mainstream because they have
to hit an audience for which experimental music is not at the top of their
interest. Is it really so strange?

    Patrice.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Massacre
Date: 17 Aug 1998 09:11:01 -0700


On Sat, 15 Aug 1998 21:14:22 PDT  "Silent Watcher" wrote:
>
> Someone emailed me the other day informing me that his friend ran into
> Ted Epstein, who claimed to have been contacted about filling Fred
> Maher's shoes on a new Massacre album.  This would be great news - if
> it's true. Anyone know?

It is a little bit strange because the upcoming Massacre record is with
Charles Hayward, not Ted Epstein.

Does it mean that the band is really back and will tour?

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Brent Burton <[e-mail]>
Subject:  tony conrad
Date: 17 Aug 1998 12:21:09 -0400 (EDT)

On Sun, 16 Aug 1998, Joseph Zitt wrote:

> There is, however, a bit of Emperor's New Clothes about it all. I
> recently attended (or perhaps I should say "was held hostage in") an
> excruciating Tony Conrad performance here in DC. At the end those who
> hadn't fled the room, in talking about it were using kind of polite
> niceties. When someone asked me what I though (though not until then)
> I said flat out that I thought it was a pretty terrible abuse of an
> audience, and that it seemed that Conrad neither knew nor cared how
> his performance was perceived. At that point, it was like a dam broke.

certainly a valid opinion as it was an extremely tautological experience,
but i saw the same show @ the black cat and i was mesmerized by the
drone.
the whole performance was conrad on violin and a woman named alex on cello
scraping out just intonation at volume 11, backlit behind a scrim.
i liked the fact that this music challenged people.  i liked the fact
that people were leaving early.  i wasn't hoping for a passive
experience.
the volume of the music made it physically taxing, yet i wouldn't have
missed a second.  once i acclimated myself to the extrememly narrow tonal
range i heard a great deal of variation in the movements.  they have the
pure sound.
this of course has nothing to do with john zorn...

b

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Paul Audino <[e-mail]>
Subject: Upcoming Tzadiks
Date: 17 Aug 1998 11:23:43 -0500 (CDT)


After skipping a month for the first time in recent memory, Tzadik makes
up for lost time on September 15th (in the US) with the following
releases :

Naftule's Dream - Smash/Clap
Great Jewish Music : Marc Bolan
John Zorn - Aporias
John Zorn - Bribe
John Zorn - Ganryu Island

Out 2 Lunch With Lunchmeat,

Paul
[e-mail]

  GROOVE
----------
One Nation



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Joseph S. Zitt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: tony conrad
Date: 17 Aug 1998 11:41:18 -0500 (CDT)

On Mon, 17 Aug 1998, Brent Burton wrote:

> the whole performance was conrad on violin and a woman named alex on cello
> scraping out just intonation at volume 11, backlit behind a scrim.

One problem that I had with the performance (as with Conrad's recordings)
was that the just intonation was hampered by the timbres used. The
scratchiness of the sounds and chaotic articulations created a lot of
off-tone noise, which made the intonations' effects much less effective.

> i liked the fact that this music challenged people.  i liked the fact
> that people were leaving early.  i wasn't hoping for a passive
> experience.

I don't see people leaving as necessarily a good thing. If someone had
gotten on stage and played a Hanson record over and over, many people
might have left too, yet that doesn't make listening to Hanson any more or
less of an effective or valuable musical experience.

> the volume of the music made it physically taxing, yet i wouldn't have
> missed a second.  once i acclimated myself to the extrememly narrow tonal
> range i heard a great deal of variation in the movements.  they have the
> pure sound.

What variation I heard seemed to be happening chaotically. I'm not
convinced that Conrad had sufficient control over his instrument to be
getting these differences other than by accident. There was one
captivating moment, about 2/3 of the way in, when difference tones
suddenly sprang out for about 30 seconds. But then they disappeared again
in such a way that made me question whether they were intentionally
produced. (Not that chance is necessarily a bad thing, but from what I
understand from his writings and with talking to him before the show, it
seems to be outside his aesthetic.)

> this of course has nothing to do with john zorn...

This of course is quite relevant to John Zorn. This entire discussion
could as easily be taking place about performances of Leng T'che. Issues
of the presentaation and reception of new music are at the core of much
that we discuss here, with Zorn as a usul focus.

- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Caleb Deupree <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: weird little boy
Date: 17 Aug 1998 12:04:58 -0400

>>>>> "Jim" == jkan  <[e-mail]> writes:

    Jim> Hmm... here you seem to equate fashion with mainstream
    Jim> culture, while in your original post you argued that only
    Jim> buying John Zorn records would make one a slave to fashion.
    Jim> What kind of fashion are we talking about?

Fashion means letting someone else dictate your choices, whether it's
mainstream media, the so-called alternative press, or any other
source.  It's a fine line, perhaps, but an extreme example might be
someone who bought every record JZ made because JZ is so cool, but
doesn't listen to any of the surrounding context (free jazz, thrash,
contemporary classical, musique concrete, etc.) because they are
complete unknowns.

    >> If the population really had a collective impulse to seek out
    >> something new, commercial radio wouldn't be as vapid as it is.

    Jim> I think it's equally valid to see it the other way around:
    Jim> when we want to seek out something new (and I didn't mean to
    Jim> suggest that the "masses" as a whole rise up to embrace the
    Jim> new David Bowie record), the boundaries of what most of us
    Jim> are able to find -- as well as the criteria by which we judge
    Jim> what we find -- are defined by commercial radio.

Maybe it's personal then.  There was a long period in my life where I
never listened to commercial radio and still don't recognize many
'hit' songs from that period.

    Jim> I just don't see the big difference between listening to
    Jim> commercial radio to find out about the new David Bowie record
    Jim> and reading Zorn's Top 10 to find out about, umm, serialist
    Jim> film music of Kazakhstan....

I see a huge difference, between finding a printed list of interesting
music, from a source we respect, where we can contemplate it at our
leisure, and use of whatever music is available to keep us listening
from one advertisement to the next.


---
Caleb T. Deupree
;; Opinions...  funny thing about opinions, they can change.

Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers.
(Pablo Picasso)


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: weird little boy
Date: 17 Aug 1998 13:01:49 -0400 (EDT)


That's the point I've been trying to make about the blind acceptance of
*anyone's* work, even JZ's. Just because an artist decides something is a
piece of high art and presents it as such, doesn't mean that we have to
accept and/or like it.

Saying that *every* piece of work created by so-and-so is a masterpiece
or deserving of our foreshortened time does a disservice to both that
person and others who create equally valid work.

That said most of us like many things which are deemed horrible etc. by
others. But if we don't hold to some critical standards we become as
ignorent and guilty of fanaticism as any so-called pop music fan.

Ken Waxman
[e-mail]





On Sun, 16 Aug 1998, Joseph Zitt wrote:

>
> Very good point. It is becoming increasingly diffcult to distinguis>
> What might be the characteristics of a bad experimental music recording?
> Would it be a failure to break past cliches (though enough cliches
> organized well might instead define a genre), an inability to play the
> instruments well, or some other factor? I know that in listening back
> to Comma's work, I like some of what we've done better than others,
> but it's hard to determine what those factors are.
>
> There is, however, a bit of Emperor's New Clothes about it all. I
> recently attended (or perhaps I should say "was held hostage in") an
> excruciating Tony Conrad performance here in DC. At the end those who
> hadn't fled the room, in talking about it were using kind of polite
> niceties. When someone asked me what I though (though not until then)
> I said flat out that I thought it was a pretty terrible abuse of an
> audience, and that it seemed that Conrad neither knew nor cared how
> his performance was perceived. At that point, it was like a dam broke.
> *Everyone* who said anything admitted to strongly disliking what they
> had just endured, yet no one wanted to be the first to admit not liking
> this Advanced Serious piece of High Art.
>
> (BTW, this isn't an off-the-cuff opinion: I have the boxed set and
> Slapping Pythagorus, have read a lot about his work, and got to speak
> to him for a while before the concert. He certainly has an interesting
> story to tell about his adventures some 30 years ago, but his recordings
> and performances contradict the musical points he seems to want to be
> making in his music.)
>
> Still, there is some valid and possibly wonderful music to be made from
> aspect of what he did. A lot of people have taken off from there and run
> in good directions.
>
> Hm... I didn't intend for this to turn into a rant...
>
> --
> ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
> |||/ Joseph Zitt ===== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
> ||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
> |/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|
>
> -
>
>

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Matthew Colonnese)
Subject: tony conrad's no bomb, but the bomb
Date: 17 Aug 1998 13:02:14 -0400 (EDT)


>There is, however, a bit of Emperor's New Clothes about it all. I
>recently attended (or perhaps I should say "was held hostage in") an
>excruciating Tony Conrad performance here in DC.

This seems, to me, a strange choice for ENC.  I've seen him twice now,
including the the same tour you just did (I assume), and both pieces have
been nothing short of magnificent (ok, the last week's was 10minutes LONG
of magnificent, but that's quibling).  Admitedly, harsh volumous drone
isn't a ubiquitous taste, but I know a number of people who LOVED his
shows--including non-music lover friends I've dragged along who have since
made efforts on their own to see him.  Many more like and listen to
_Slapping Pythagoros_ and _Four Violins_.  I'm not sure how else to defend
him, cause I don't want to make an appeal to innovation, authority ect,
cause my love of his music has nothing to do with those things.  Simply,
his harmonics sound like the mornful end of the universe, and you can't get
much more intense than that.  _Four Violins_ is the perfect tone world; I
don't play it much because it causes so much tension, but when I do I feel
TC's distilled sonic beauty to it's simplest, purest form.  The rest of
_Early Minimalism_ isn't as impressive to me because the violin sounds more
like a tone generator than a actual instrument.

In responce to the thread that few people are willing to respond negatively
to "experimental music," I have two comments.  1)The myth (meaning myth,
not "false myth") of _the misuderstood artist who is later revealed to
become massively imporant player_, is HUGE (in my circle at least), this
makes people reticent to be dismissive of things they didn't imediately
grasp.  This is good, I think.  Furthermore, if an artwork is truely
experimental, reducing it to "good" or "bad" is simply not the point.  The
point is to take what you can from it, 'cause on the whole, it's likely
bound to fail.  2)  In general comming up with opinions that label art
"good" and "crap" is, well, stupid.  It's fun for conversation, but I pitty
someone who looks at things that way.  Vote with your feet, listen to what
you feel compeled to listen again to.

matt


------
"Finally, a thing-a-ma-giggy that would bring people together...even if it
kept them apart, spatially."



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Joseph S. Zitt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: tony conrad's no bomb, but the bomb
Date: 17 Aug 1998 12:21:03 -0500 (CDT)

On Mon, 17 Aug 1998, Matthew Colonnese wrote:

> his harmonics sound like the mornful end of the universe, and you can't get
> much more intense than that.  _Four Violins_ is the perfect tone world; I
> don't play it much because it causes so much tension, but when I do I feel
> TC's distilled sonic beauty to it's simplest, purest form.  The rest of
> _Early Minimalism_ isn't as impressive to me because the violin sounds more
> like a tone generator than a actual instrument.

Hmm... I don't know what the mournful end of the universe would sound
like, so I can't speak to whether another sound approximates it.

I do see that we have reversed reactions to _Four Violins_ vs. the rest of
_Early Minimalism_. In the later works, it's slightly easier to hear
what's going on. His point, as he says repeatedly, is overtone
interactions within long durations. This is easier to perceive in the less
sloppy environment.

Although La Monte Young appears to be being somewhat of a putz about all
of this (though I'd like to get a third opinion on the whole thing -- I
wonder if that John Cale autobiography will ever be published), I do
prefer his recordings (except for that blues band thing) and his
installations, since they get to the heart of the sound more effectively.

> In responce to the thread that few people are willing to respond negatively
> to "experimental music," I have two comments.  1)The myth (meaning myth,
> not "false myth") of _the misuderstood artist who is later revealed to
> become massively imporant player_, is HUGE (in my circle at least), this
> makes people reticent to be dismissive of things they didn't imediately
> grasp.  This is good, I think.

Good, in that it allows some work to develop. Bad, in that it makes it
possible for some wankers to put on the coat of Misunderstood Innovator
while all that they are doing is combining cliches badly.

> Furthermore, if an artwork is truely
> experimental, reducing it to "good" or "bad" is simply not the point.  The
> point is to take what you can from it, 'cause on the whole, it's likely
> bound to fail.

As some well known composer said a while ago (I forget who it was): by the
time it reaches an audience, it had better not be experimental anymore.
Experiment in the lab, if you want. Ap aying audience has a right to
expect at least a modicum of effectiveness.

> 2)  In general comming up with opinions that label art
> "good" and "crap" is, well, stupid.  It's fun for conversation, but I pitty
> someone who looks at things that way.  Vote with your feet, listen to what
> you feel compeled to listen again to.

To say just "good" or "crap" is less than useful. Meaningful discussion of
the content and goals of a performance, how well they achieve them, and
how the audience responds is en essential part of communication within a
musical community.

- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Brent Burton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: tony conrad
Date: 17 Aug 1998 13:23:38 -0400 (EDT)

On Mon, 17 Aug 1998, Joseph S. Zitt wrote:

> One problem that I had with the performance (as with Conrad's recordings)
> was that the just intonation was hampered by the timbres used. The
> scratchiness of the sounds and chaotic articulations created a lot of
> off-tone noise, which made the intonations' effects much less effective.

well, i would argue that you're looking for something in conrad's music
that he isn't trying to achieve.  if you listen to "outside the dream
syndicate" or even conrad's influence on john cale's playing with the
velvet underground, i think that you'll see a singleminded consistency.
i think conrad's doing exactly what he wants to do and he's been doing it
for decades.
maybe check out phill niblock for less atonal experimentation...

> What variation I heard seemed to be happening chaotically. I'm not
> convinced that Conrad had sufficient control over his instrument to be
> getting these differences other than by accident.

well, i was standing where i could see behind the scrim and i would have
to disagree.  the music was indeteminate in many respects, but conrad's
actions and choices betrayed no confusion that i could see.

b

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Marks, Andy" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Upcoming Tzadiks
Date: 17 Aug 1998 12:27:00 -0500



    > John Zorn - Bribe
    Anybody know what this is?


> -

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Herb Levy <[e-mail]>
Subject: A question
Date: 17 Aug 1998 10:14:54 -0800

Hi,

I have a question re: Fred Frith's Pacifica.  I've got the disc & like the
piece pretty well, but I've seen several references, both on the disc &
elsewhere to the length of the piece as "over an hour."  The disc I have is
only about 45 minutes long.  The work seems complete, at least as it's
described in the notes.  Does anybody have an idea what's up here?  Was the
piece as performed an hour-long and then the score was cut for recording or
what.

Bests,

Herb


Herb Levy
[e-mail]



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Herb Levy <[e-mail]>
Subject: Antenna Radio
Date: 17 Aug 1998 10:14:54 -0800

While there are probably shows on Antenna that are relevant to the
interests of folks on this list in most weeks, I think this week that's
particularly the case.

My show, Mappings, presents a range of interactive computer pieces,
including compositions and/or performances by Martin Bartlett, Chris Brown,
George Lewis, Ikue Mori, & Evan Parker.

Phil's show, Intoxication Hour, focuses on recent British improv.

Both available, with 5 or 6 other weekly shows, at
<http://www.antennaradio.com/>

Bests,

Herb


Herb Levy
[e-mail]



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Upcoming Tzadiks
Date: 17 Aug 1998 10:35:52 -0700


On Mon, 17 Aug 1998 12:27:00 -0500  "Marks, Andy" wrote:
>
>
>
>     > John Zorn - Bribe
>     Anybody know what this is?

It is an unreleased 1986 composition.

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Chris Barrett" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: weird little boy
Date: 17 Aug 1998 13:44:16 -0400


>
>    Jim> I just don't see the big difference between listening to
>    Jim> commercial radio to find out about the new David Bowie record
>    Jim> and reading Zorn's Top 10 to find out about, umm, serialist
>    Jim> film music of Kazakhstan....
>
>I see a huge difference, between finding a printed list of interesting
>music, from a source we respect, where we can contemplate it at our
>leisure, and use of whatever music is available to keep us listening
>from one advertisement to the next.


Ahhh, but isn't a "source we respect" different from person to person?
Whether it's option Magazine, Wire, a JZ top ten, Marilyn Manson's Top Ten,
MTV's website, a stray article in Billboard, something from your local
paper, an indie 'zine?  Just because one finds/discovers an artist through,
say Rolling Stone, it doesn't mean that that person is a slave to the media
conglomerate that is Rolling Stone, or shares Rolling Stone's viewpoint.
It also doesn't make the artist any more or less relevant, no matter the
style or the scene.  So it took a little more work to find music via the JZ
top ten than the average pop fan (a term which is used a little too
derisively around here IMHO.  Remember, without the context of pop there is
no out-there, no avant garde, or whatever).  If you continue to gleem
recommendations from JZ's top ten, then the names have changed, but you do
the same as that pop fan who scans Rolling Stone.


A Fan of All Sorts of Music,

Chris



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Chris Genzel)
Subject: Re: Massacre
Date: 17 Aug 1998 19:35:04 +0200


> Someone emailed me the other day informing me that his friend ran into
> Ted Epstein, who claimed to have been contacted about filling Fred
> Maher's shoes on a new Massacre album.  This would be great news - if
> it's true. Anyone know?

 I don't know anything about this, but I'd love to see them perform again,
 though I guess it won't be the same without Fred Maher. I always loved his
 drumming -- too bad he's turned away from "our" musicians. (The same, by the
 way, applies to Michael Beinhorn. I like his style, and I'd love to see him
 perform in a more adventurous set again.)

 Kind regards,
 - Chris.

 ---------------------------------------------
 *    Chris Genzel --- [e-mail]    *
 * Homepage & Herbie Hancock discography at: *
 *    http://home.t-online.de/home/stamil/   *
 ---------------------------------------------


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: tony conrad's no bomb, but the bomb
Date: 17 Aug 1998 14:24:42 EDT

In a message dated 98-08-17 13:04:46 EDT, Matthew Colonnese writes:

<< Furthermore, if an artwork is truely
 experimental, reducing it to "good" or "bad" is simply not the point. >>

I'm not familiar with Tony Conrad, but it strikes me that there's a good
definition lying herein - perhaps "experimental music" is that to which "good"
or "bad" can't be applied?

Just a thought.....

Dale.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: tony conrad's no bomb, but the bomb
Date: 17 Aug 1998 14:27:25 EDT

In a message dated 98-08-17 13:24:27 EDT, Joseph S. Zitt writes:

<< As some well known composer said a while ago (I forget who it was): by the
 time it reaches an audience, it had better not be experimental anymore.
  >>

If I remember right.....I think we concluded this was Varese.

Dale.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: David Keffer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn List Digest V2 #438
Date: 17 Aug 1998 14:34:55 -0400

>From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
>Maybe then he and the other "free form" diletantes, such as Thurston
>Moore should leave the music to those who know it and *want* to play it
>- -- the names Coleman, Taylor, E. Parker, W. Parker, Lowe, Guy, Ware,
>Gayle, Bailey, Oxley, Brotzmann come immediately to mind.

This is news to me.  Has Thurston Moore made some statement that he does
not *want* to participate in the "free form" ensembles that he has been
participating in over the past several years?  To my knowledge, he has not.
Were this the case, he could abandon those projects and stick with his
money maker SY.  If Moore has made no such statement, then your accusation
against him appears to me to be a product of high-brow snobbery, namely,
that someone involved in popular music cannot be simultaneously involved
in music of the marginal culture.  Your accusation seems to have ample proof
against it originating just in this list, where many of the Zorn-listers
are simultaneously interested in Brotzmann/Bailey/Taylor crowd and
popular bands--taking examples from with long threads from past
digests:  King Crimson, Pere Ubu, Frank Zappa, Captain Beefheart...

On the contrary, I have some respect for Thurston Moore in that he chooses
not to just put out one SY record after another (which IMO are pretty good
listens in their own right) but also contributes to many improv records with
the likes of Tom Surgal, Loren MazzaCane Connors, William Winant,
Borbetomagus, etc.

David K.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Felix" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: weird little boy
Date: 17 Aug 1998 12:39:15 +0200

>What might be the characteristics of a bad experimental music recording?
>Would it be a failure to break past cliches (though enough cliches
>organized well might instead define a genre), an inability to play the
>instruments well, or some other factor? I know that in listening back
>to Comma's work, I like some of what we've done better than others,
>but it's hard to determine what those factors are.


Two recent examples: I bought SYR3 by Sonic Youth and Jim O'Rourke a few
months back. In the Echo Canyon list, everyone was saying how great it was,
saying it was free jazz and all, the reviews described it, at the very
least, as the best Sonic Youth release of the decade, possibly of their
entire career. As I happen to like SY's and O'Rourke's work, and seeing as
everyone described the album as great I bought it.

What a disappointment it was. 56 minutes of guitar feedback with some
(really) bad trumpet playing and Kim Gordon's moaning voice in the middle. I
only play the album now because I want to have my money worhtwhile, but I
can't feel what's so great about that album. I was so disappointed that I
found I liked Mystic Fugu Orchestra EP more than SYR3 (because the first
presents something new, it's strange and it has a concept; SYR3 lacks all of
these characteristics). My guess is that SY fans thought it was great
because, for them, it was something really new, something they've never
seen, but for the most people of this list (I assume), SYR3 will present
nothing new or original.

On the other hand, I went to that show I talked about earlier (Mori/
Coleman/ Lindsay/ Ribot/ Kang + Oval + Zφngaro/ Yoshihide/ Mⁿller/ Bochinho)
and I absolutely loved it. That single show made my summer worthwhile (and
missing SY which were playing in the same night). However, the reviews said
the show had been short of bullshit and they used the show to make this lame
piece on how the New York experimental scene was dead (is it, new yorkers?).
They absolutely trashed a show which I loved and still carry a smile in my
face because of it.

SO my guess is that experimental music is all about the feelings it awakens
in somebody when they listen to it, more than any other music, because
experimental has very few structures for you to hang on.

Sorry for THIS rant.
Felix
[e-mail]


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: David Keffer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Tony Conrad
Date: 17 Aug 1998 14:51:39 -0400


>On Sun, 16 Aug 1998, Joseph Zitt wrote:
>> There is, however, a bit of Emperor's New Clothes about it all. I
>> recently attended (or perhaps I should say "was held hostage in") an
>> excruciating Tony Conrad performance here in DC. At the end those who
>> hadn't fled the room, in talking about it were using kind of polite
>> niceties. When someone asked me what I though (though not until then)
>> I said flat out that I thought it was a pretty terrible abuse of an
>> audience, and that it seemed that Conrad neither knew nor cared how
>> his performance was perceived. At that point, it was like a dam broke.

Having seen "Slapping Pythagoras" and "Four Violins" (behind the sheet)
performed and enjoyed them both, I have a different interpretation of
the music.  However, each person interprets on their own terms and
reaches their own conclusions.  I have no problem with that.

What I don't understand in this post is the part where "I thought
it was a pretty terrible abuse of an audience, and that it seemed that
Conrad neither knew nor cared how his performance was perceived."  What
would you have had him do?  He is playing a composed piece from
beginning to end.  If he (somehow) were to sense that the audience
was dissatisfied with the performance, would you have had him abandon
the piece midway through and switch to something a little more "rocking"?
(That would have been something to see. :) )  I think Conrad came
to DC to play a drone.  He did exactly as he intended.  If the merits
of the drone were lost on the (perhaps uninformed or perhaps unwarned
or perhaps informed but unimpressed all the same)
audience, there is nothing he can do about it except play for those
who are enjoying it and finish the night out.

David K.




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: tony conrad's no bomb, but the bomb
Date: 17 Aug 1998 12:02:43 -0700


On Mon, 17 Aug 1998 14:24:42 EDT  [e-mail] wrote:
>
> In a message dated 98-08-17 13:04:46 EDT, Matthew Colonnese writes:
>
> << Furthermore, if an artwork is truely
>  experimental, reducing it to "good" or "bad" is simply not the point. >>
>
> I'm not familiar with Tony Conrad, but it strikes me that there's a good
> definition lying herein - perhaps "experimental music" is that to which "good"
> or "bad" can't be applied?

Right, if you can define what experimental is. Tony Conrad, for example, was
definitely experimental... 35 years ago. Being one of the creators of the
"drone" movement, there is nothing wrong about him still pushing it at the
end of this century, but does it mean it is still "experimental"?

    Patrice.




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Joseph S. Zitt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Tony Conrad
Date: 17 Aug 1998 14:15:46 -0500 (CDT)

On Mon, 17 Aug 1998, David Keffer wrote:

> What I don't understand in this post is the part where "I thought
> it was a pretty terrible abuse of an audience, and that it seemed that
> Conrad neither knew nor cared how his performance was perceived."  What
> would you have had him do?  He is playing a composed piece from
> beginning to end.

Well, then, perhaps the problem is in the composition. A piece designed to
be performed before an audience must take the audience into account.

Do we have any idea what was composed about the piece? In moving the small
number of pitches around, it seemed that he was cycling among identical
sections. In what parameter did the sections differ: rhythm? dynamics?
tempo? articulation?

To believe that a piece must include, say, 63 iterations of a pattern, no
matter the context, because the score says that it does, then to consider
the performance above reproach because it followed the score, is to
consider the score as a sacred text. I find this kind of elevation and
adulation of a composition above the reactions of the people experiencing
it to be a highly distateful disrespect for the audience.

After all, this power situation that he creates is precisely that which he
claims to detest in all his writings.

> If he (somehow) were to sense that the audience
> was dissatisfied with the performance, would you have had him abandon
> the piece midway through and switch to something a little more "rocking"?

He has been playing this same work for many years. He has, no doubt, been
able to hear feedback from his audiences. I found it quite significant
that
every single person speaking up between the sets had the same reaction.
(If others there believed as stronglythat the event was satisfying, why
were they silent?)

Should he have switched pieces in midstream? Probably not (though I do try
to include that kind of flexibility in my own pieces). Should he have
realized that much of the audience would feel trapped the performance, and
perhaps done it in a venue where people other than those in the front rows
could step out and in again without tromping others.

Some try to excuse this music by calling it "experimental". Practially
speaking, he has been performing this work for many years, has recorded
two boxed sets and a few other discs of it, and documented what he is
doing at great length. One would think that at this late date the
"experiment"  would be complete, and that he would have no further need
for quinea pigs.

> (That would have been something to see. :) )  I think Conrad came
> to DC to play a drone.  He did exactly as he intended.  If the merits
> of the drone were lost on the (perhaps uninformed or perhaps unwarned
> or perhaps informed but unimpressed all the same)
> audience, there is nothing he can do about it except play for those
> who are enjoying it and finish the night out.

And there is nothing we can do about it except to alert others that this
is what they might expect in a similar circumstances, and learn how to
improve on it in our own work.

- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Theo Klaase)
Subject: Zorn completist.
Date: 17 Aug 1998 15:33:08 -0500 (CDT)

If I was wealthy, I'd have no problem buying each JZ Cd available.  I
wouldn't want to miss a particular amazing song that's possibly out
there floating on some disc I don't have.  Same goes for Zappa and
others such.  But I do agree that it is good not to fall into a rut of
only purchasing one artist offerings.   It's narrow-mindedness.  Please,
let us avoid that at all cost.


-Theo


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: David Keffer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Tony Conrad
Date: 17 Aug 1998 16:35:05 -0400

[e-mail] wrote:
>Well, then, perhaps the problem is in the composition. A piece designed to
>be performed before an audience must take the audience into account...
>He [Tony Conrad] has been playing this same work for many years.
>He has, no doubt, been able to hear feedback from his audiences.

I hear what you are saying about the performance experience
but I don't think it is within the privileges of the listener
to expect that the performer change what they are doing
based on the listener's response to the music.

I too have attended experimental shows where I could not believe
what I was hearing.  I attended a Borbetomagus show once, with little
advanced warning.  The deafening and piercing cacophony of that band
was news to me. I was staggered and wincing for about fifteen minutes
until I left with a headache.  But I am not about to expect
Borbetomagus to change their sound.

I have also seen Ornette Coleman (with Prime Time) where I had
a good deal of advance information but was simply horrified by
the dismal new age calamity I witnessed.  I stuck it through
just to hear the infrequent sax solos.  Again, I am not going
to expect that Ornette Coleman disavow himself of all doings with
about half of the other members in that performance (which is what I
think would have been a good idea).

It is certainly within the privileges of the listener to leave.
It is also perfectly legitimate and intelligent to comment on the
performance as you did.  However, I don't think one can expect
the performer to alter their music based on critical or mainstream
review.  The fundamental problem of popular music is just this:
recording artists are encouraged to alter their music to fit a mold, in this
case a mold defined by what is commercially marketable.  There is
a virtue in sticking to one's guns.  Admittedly that virtue does not
invariably equate to excellent music, but then again some virtues
are useless and self-defeating but virtuous nonetheless.

>After all, this power situation that he creates is precisely that which he
>claims to detest in all his writings.

I don't think that Conrad's writing of the power situation involved
the power of performer over audience (which is pretty much ubiquitous
in any live setting) as much as the power of one performer over
other members of the ensemble...  (but I could be wrong; it's been a
while since I read the Conrad liner notes in the Table of the Elements
boxed set and his writings in the magazine Halana!.)

>And there is nothing we can do about it except to alert others that this
>is what they might expect in a similar circumstances...

Of course, I agree with you on this, and this is why we subscribe to the
Zorn digest.
But this was not the argument of the original post.  Anyway, thanks for
clarifying your point.

David K.

p.s.  Are there now two boxed sets of Conrad's work?


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Joseph S. Zitt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Tony Conrad
Date: 17 Aug 1998 15:54:22 -0500 (CDT)

On Mon, 17 Aug 1998, David Keffer wrote:

> I hear what you are saying about the performance experience
> but I don't think it is within the privileges of the listener
> to expect that the performer change what they are doing
> based on the listener's response to the music.

Ideally, the performer and audience have a symbiotic relationship, each
affecting the other. (Most ideally, there is no difference between
performer and audience, just people gathered together in a flexible
combination of people contribuing sound and peple contributing attention.)
I think there's a middle ground between being completely at the will of
the audience (at which point you become rather like a player at a piano
bar taking requests (not that that's necessarily a bad thing)) and
completely ignoring the audience (in which case you might as well have
stayed home and let someone play a CD).

> I too have attended experimental shows where I could not believe
> what I was hearing.  I attended a Borbetomagus show once, with little
> advanced warning.  The deafening and piercing cacophony of that band
> was news to me. I was staggered and wincing for about fifteen minutes
> until I left with a headache.  But I am not about to expect
> Borbetomagus to change their sound.

In that case you voted with your feet, being in a situation where it was
possible to do so. But you probably wished you had known what you were in
for ahead of time.

In Comma performances, we try to organise things so people can move in and
out with minimum disruption (which is admittedly hard in conventional
performance spaces). I like the freedom this allows, though it is someimes
more of a challenge.

> I have also seen Ornette Coleman (with Prime Time) where I had
> a good deal of advance information but was simply horrified by
> the dismal new age calamity I witnessed.  I stuck it through

Was this the Civilization shows last year, or something earlier? I saw him
perform a lot in the 80s, and find it hard to imagine a Prime Time show as
a  "dismal new age calamity". But perhaps some of the newer directions on
Tone Dialing were taken to an extreme.

> I don't think that Conrad's writing of the power situation involved
> the power of performer over audience (which is pretty much ubiquitous
> in any live setting) as much as the power of one performer over
> other members of the ensemble...  (but I could be wrong; it's been a
> while since I read the Conrad liner notes in the Table of the Elements
> boxed set and his writings in the magazine Halana!.)

From what I can understand of his writings (and, admittedly, when he gets
off onto the Pythagoras thing it gets a bit hard to follow, he is against
the whole star system in general. That he is now participating in it, with
fancy Web sites, magazine covers, and expensive product, is a
contradiction what he may not yet have consciously addressed.

> p.s.  Are there now two boxed sets of Conrad's work?

From what I've heard, _Early Minimalism: Volume Two_ is due in the fall.

- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|


-



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From: Kevin Neales <[e-mail]>
Subject: Praxis
Date: 17 Aug 1998 17:01:07 -0400

I noticed a Praxis Compilation CD at a record store today. It has all
previously released material including one Death Cube K song.  It is on
the Douglas label, but the packaging looked really cheap.

However, I also noticed on the Koch webpage that there is a new Praxis
album due out this month called Mold on the Yikes label.  Does anyone
know anything about this?? Who plays on it????

                                                   Thanks,
                                                     Kevin N.

-



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From: SUGAR in their vitamins? <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Tony Conrad
Date: 17 Aug 1998 14:24:39 -0700 (PDT)

On Mon, 17 Aug 1998, Joseph S. Zitt wrote:

> completely ignoring the audience (in which case you might as well have
> stayed home and let someone play a CD).

but, isn't this subjective?

> In that case you voted with your feet, being in a situation where it was
> possible to do so. But you probably wished you had known what you were in
> for ahead of time.

i don't know... part of the charm of
discovering new experiences is
not neccessarily being prepared
for what lies ahead. it would
be boring (for me) if everything
was predictable.

hasta.

Yes.  Beautiful, wonderful nature.  Hear it sing to us: *snap*  Yes.  natURE.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Spirer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Praxis
Date: 17 Aug 1998 14:23:10 -0700

At 05:01 PM 8/17/98 -0400, Kevin Neales wrote:
>I noticed a Praxis Compilation CD at a record store today. It has all
>previously released material including one Death Cube K song.  It is on
>the Douglas label, but the packaging looked really cheap.
>
>However, I also noticed on the Koch webpage that there is a new Praxis
>album due out this month called Mold on the Yikes label.  Does anyone
>know anything about this?? Who plays on it????

It's the Material/Praxis "1984" recording, which is about that old, with
remixes.


Jeff Spirer
B&W Photos: http://www.pomegranates.com/frame/spirer/
Color and B&W Photos: http://www.hyperreal.org/~jeffs/gallery.html
Axiom/Material: http://www.hyperreal.org/axiom/

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Joseph S. Zitt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Tony Conrad
Date: 17 Aug 1998 16:36:53 -0500 (CDT)

On Mon, 17 Aug 1998, SUGAR in their vitamins? wrote:

> On Mon, 17 Aug 1998, Joseph S. Zitt wrote:
>
> > completely ignoring the audience (in which case you might as well have
> > stayed home and let someone play a CD).
>
> but, isn't this subjective?

Not in this context, I don't think. If an artist is completely ignoring an
audience, to the point of being effectively unaware of their presence,
what is the point of being in the same room as the audience, other than
perhaps the frisson of excitement that one might get from being in the
same room as a Famous Artist (which can get a bit cannibalistic at times).

> i don't know... part of the charm of
> discovering new experiences is
> not neccessarily being prepared
> for what lies ahead. it would
> be boring (for me) if everything
> was predictable.

If I knew exactly what shapes the next week's worth of clouds would have,
they would be boring. If, however, I weren't be able to predict pretty
well that for the next week the Earth would have a breathable atmosphere,
it might make getting on with life significantly more difficult.

- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|


-



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From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn List Digest V2 #438
Date: 17 Aug 1998 18:13:12 -0400 (EDT)

I called Thurston a free-form dilettante because having seen him
perform twice with good rhythm sections --
at FIMAV and NYC -- I don't think he's a very good improviser.

He'd be better off using the SY $$$$ to fund CDs and concerts by folks
who IMHO can *really* play improvised music.

Ken Waxman
[e-mail]

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Tri-Centric Festival, NYC
Date: 17 Aug 1998 16:09:10 -0500


     Visiting the Braxton-oriented Tri-Centric site at:

        http://www-osf.wesleyan.edu/music/braxton

     I saw the listing of this festival to take place at Greenwich House on
     the weekends of 9/24-9/26 and 10/1-10/3. Though Braxton the composer
     won't, apparently, be represented, he is performing with a number of
     ensembles. Leading those groups will be: Rozanne Levin, Kevin Norton,
     Seth Misterka, Taylor Ho Bynum, Morgan O'Hara, Bruce Morris, David
     Novak, Jackson Moore, Richard McGee III, James Fei, Kevin O'Neil, Joe
     Fonda, Brandon Evans and Chris Jonas, all of whom, I suppose, have
     some relationship with AB at Wesleyan. I'm only familiar with two or
     three of these names, mostly from work with Braxton. If anyone knows
     more about any of these folk, I'd be curious to hear your impressions
     of their music.

     The dates of this festival, by the way, match up exactly with the
     Masada and Bar Kokhba ensemble dates at Tonic. Decisions, decisions...

     Brian Olewnick



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Matthew Colonnese)
Subject: Re: tony conrad's no bomb, but the bomb
Date: 17 Aug 1998 18:40:15 -0400 (EDT)


>Hmm... I don't know what the mournful end of the universe would sound
>like, so I can't speak to whether another sound approximates it.
>
>I do see that we have reversed reactions to _Four Violins_ vs. the rest of
>_Early Minimalism_. In the later works, it's slightly easier to hear
>what's going on. His point, as he says repeatedly, is overtone
>interactions within long durations. This is easier to perceive in the less
>sloppy environment.

As usual there is a difference in basic assumptions here.  I personally
don't care if Tony Conrad was successfull in bringing to fruition the goals
which he set himself.  I don't care if he had complete control over the
notes flying around the room, or even if he was had control of the
paramaters the chaotic note production.  I don't care if there was
movement, composition, complexity, originality or any other arbitrary
prinicple of musical "goodness" (or concern for the audience, or whatnot).
All of these can be usefull descriptors of why one person did or did not
like a piece of music, but too often (and I sense of whiff of this in
Joseph's responces to TC*) they are used as universal measures of success
or failure of piece.  They are nothing of the sort.  They are fairly
arbitrary assumptions about artistic value used to reductively analyze
music and then give these analyses some objectivity.  And for good reason,
it is difficult to professionalize and academize musical analysis if
everyone just stood around and said "well, I liked it" and "yup."  But it
is easy to let these formerly analytical principles become evaluative
criterion, and then eventually to become dominant criterion.

*though this is fairly common assumption underlying most of the criticism
exchanged on this and other lists; and, I guess, critical thought in
general.

I enjoy TC's music because I love the sound.  If it changed too much, or
had too much forward motion it would loose the epic, unwavering quality
that is so important to it power.  LaMonte young may be more sucessfull at
clearly defining and articulating the sonic interactions he is exploring.
This is likely one reason he plays to art establishment and TC play rock
clubs.  But there's more to music than rigorous exploration of basic
prinicples.  One person likes clear articulation, others "sloppier" ones.
That TC plays music that does not corespond exactly to his written goals
only makes him a failure at following through on his written goals, not in
making enjoyable music.

>Good, in that it allows some work to develop. Bad, in that it makes it
>possible for some wankers to put on the coat of Misunderstood Innovator
>while all that they are doing is combining cliches badly.
>

I'm curious if the key word here is "cliches" or "badly"?  And in anycase,
what about all those folks who like wankery misunderstood innovators?  Is
it a real abomination that some folks will get enjoyment out of music
that's been "objectively" identified as poor?

side note, side note:  I have a pet theory re: the David Shine tour.  All
the classical reviewers wrote him up as being quite poor for not having
this or that technical expertise.  The audiences, reportedly, loved it.  I
wonder though if those same foibles which earened him the scorn of the
classical establishment were heard as emotional by the audience?  And that
the properly played piece, with all it's technical excellence comes off as
cold to the untrained ear? Anyone?


>
>As some well known composer said a while ago (I forget who it was): by the
>time it reaches an audience, it had better not be experimental anymore.
>Experiment in the lab, if you want. Ap aying audience has a right to
>expect at least a modicum of effectiveness.

The music biz has become so huge that the "audience" varies.  If I go to
concert at some small downtown space which usually presents "experimental"
sorts of music to mostly other musicians, I (and I think most others) don't
expect a fully worked out piece.  I'm looking for ideas taking shaped,
sometime successfuly, sometimes not.  An outside festival for on the New
Haven Green should probably be something tried and true with great
effectiveness.  Somewhere in between, should be somewhere in between.









------
"Finally, a thing-a-ma-giggy that would bring people together...even if it
kept them apart, spatially."



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Jason J. Tar" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Ice _Bad Blood_
Date: 17 Aug 1998 19:11:35 -0400

>Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 16:04:29 -0500 (EST)
>From: Joe Weil <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Re: Ice/God/Lou Ciccotelli
>BTW, has anyone seen the latest Ice, Bad Blood, in the stores?
>CDEurope has it for 36US$, too much.

I got mine via RoughTrade (www.roughtrade.com).

A domestic (US) issue of it will be out in Sept/Oct via Reprise.

JJTar.

---
Peace Hugs and Unity            Jason J. Tar
        W.    W.    J.    D?
                  (What would Jason Do?)
      http://pilot.msu.edu/user/tarjason
              ICQ@13792120

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dan Hewins <[e-mail]>
Subject: In The Grass (Ducret/Previte)
Date: 17 Aug 1998 19:19:56 -0500

Anyone know what's up with this album?

I looked at ICE Magazine's web site and it lists it as coming out tomorrow
(8/18).  Enja's web site has it up there.

Only thing is is that none of my local record stores have it in their
databases.  Any ideas?  Any info?

Dan



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Christian Heslop" <[e-mail]>
Subject: weird little boy
Date: 17 Aug 1998 18:06:40 -0700

    I have not heard the album under discussion but I have been noticing some
interesting points being brought up around it.  Edgard Varese referred to
his work as "organised sound" and no discussion of modern noise music would
be complete without a nod to his aesthetic purpose. Noise music is to me a
logical step in the direction of freeing music from arbitrarily determined
systems that determine more than they describe the result of "organised
sound". Schoenbergs twelve-tone was once a revolution but quickly became
equally as dogamtic as the tonal system that was it's predecessor. There
are no believable rules for what music is other than Varese's. Questions as
to the quality of a piece of music can only be answered if one is aware of
a musicians purpose-allowing you to judge quality by determining if he/she
has satisfied that purpose. Any question of quality without knowledge of
creators purpose is simply an argument of taste-which is quite obviously
not a functional debate. Which may be very frustrating to those of us who
know that we have "good taste".
    Improv or composed?Depends on the purpose, but I don't think anyone would
say that the music world hasn't been enriched by the introduction of
improv. But there remain some very serious questions about the quality of
noise bands and how it may be determined. If you can't hear it then maybe
you should start at the beginning-Monteverdi or something. Let me present
you with an example from my area. A band in my town formed that was billing
itself as a noise band. Having been acquainted with a few of the members of
this band I knew full well that none of them (not one single one) had any
idea how to even play their instrument. This is not good, improv in
ignorance is akin to having no human intelligence actually attempting to
affect sound. This is not music...it is not "organised sound". It is akin
to an act of nature or the sounds of machines. Without human interference
they may be beautiful but they are not music. Needless to say, the
performances of thisband were embarassing. They managed to pose as
revolutionaries.Locally of course. But again if listening isn't enough to
tell-perhaps you need to reexamine your understanding of music.Sorry about
the essay....


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Charles Gillett" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: weird little boy
Date: 17 Aug 1998 20:36:02 +0000

On Mon, 17 Aug 1998 12:04:58 -0400, Caleb Deupree wrote:
> It's a fine line, perhaps, but an extreme example might be
> someone who bought every record JZ made because JZ is so cool, but
> doesn't listen to any of the surrounding context (free jazz, thrash,
> contemporary classical, musique concrete, etc.) because they are
> complete unknowns.

   It seems like a fair number of more "trad" jazz fans on rec.music.
bluenote think that all JZ fans are this way, and also that the
musicians themselves are only out to fool people into thinking that
they're cool and hip, etc.  Is the currency of cool really that
valuable?  Would someone willingly live a life of poverty, playing
unpopular music, just so some kids will think they're cool?

   Anyway, even though I own a (to me) surprising number of Zorn
albums, I think he's been more valuable to me as a pointer toward
other musics--the free, thrash, classical, concrete that you mention.
Certainly, I like quite a bit of his music, and I have an inexplicable
affection for Masada which drains my wallet regularly, but as a guide
to the underworld he's pretty spiffy.

On Mon, 17 Aug 1998 13:44:16 -0400, "Chris Barrett" wrote:
> Just because one finds/discovers an artist through, say Rolling Stone,
> it doesn't mean that that person is a slave to the media conglomerate
> that is Rolling Stone, or shares Rolling Stone's viewpoint.

   I discovered John Zorn through Rolling Stone.  In one of their year-
end issues they reviewed the first Mr. Bungle record and _Torture
Garden_.  I bought _TG_ shortly thereafter.

On Fri, 14 Aug 1998 13:27:38 -0700, "Patrice L. Roussel" wrote:
> But there is some truth in what he says: who has a clue if some
> improv/noise is great or crap? For some people (the "dogmatic") it
> is good by definition (or the question about "good" and "bad" is
> irrelevant).  And the vast majority does not even care of the genre
> (and they would not believe, anyway, that you can even make music
> which is 100% improvised or noise :-). The result? Zillions of
> records that are "great" and very few that ten years after you
> really remember or put on your turntable...

   To some extent it's that way for all kinds of music, isn't it?
Who's going to be listening to "Hello Nasty" in 10 years?  Maybe
everyone, more likely just a dwindling number of hardcore fans.  I
think the problem with experimental, improv, or noise albums is
not so much that everyone assumes that they're great from the get-go,
but that there's always someone out there who will like any given
album, and in this relatively small scene one voice is pretty loud.
There's no critical consensus, usually (beyond the bit about John
Fahey doing no wrong).  Generally, there are only a few minutes of
any improv album that I can actually point to and say "Mmm, good!"
on the first or second listen.  If there's nothing horrible on the
album, then I continue to listen to it and discover other parts I
think are good, or parts I think are bad.  After a few months, I
might feel confident enough to say that such-and-such an album is
good or bad.

   Sometimes I never figure it out.  I keep buying Loren MazzaCane
Connors CDs, hoping that some important piece will fall into place
and I'll be able to rave about how much I love his music.  Instead
I continue to be held in a state of suspended opinion.  I *think*
I really like his music....


-- Charles


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Matthew Ross Davis <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: tony conrad's no bomb, but the bomb
Date: 17 Aug 1998 17:32:39 -0500

>As some well known composer said a while ago (I forget who it was): by the
>time it reaches an audience, it had better not be experimental anymore.
>Experiment in the lab, if you want. Ap aying audience has a right to
>expect at least a modicum of effectiveness.

John Cage didn't like to use the word 'experimental' for his music for
precisely this reason, that it implied somehow that the music wasn't
"ready" yet.

>To say just "good" or "crap" is less than useful. Meaningful discussion of
>the content and goals of a performance, how well they achieve them, and
>how the audience responds is en essential part of communication within a
>musical community.

And of course, subjectivity plays a lot as well. A Sunday article in the
Washington Post said that nothing Cage wrote beyond 1952 had any musical
merit. For me, that's the equivalent of saying post 1952 Cage is "crap".
There's no way to have an intellegent conversation about music starting off
from a position like this, especially an uninformed one.


| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | m - a - t - t - h - e - w | r - o - s - s | d - a - v - i - s | |
| | http://www.artswire.org/mrd | | | | | | | UMD school of music | |
| | m-e-t-a-t-r-o-n p-r-e-s-s | | | http://www.artswire.org/comma | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |



-



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From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: tony conrad
Date: 18 Aug 1998 00:20:16 -0400

Brent Burton wrote:

> well, i would argue that you're looking for something in conrad's music
> that he isn't trying to achieve.  if you listen to "outside the dream
> syndicate" or even conrad's influence on john cale's playing with the
> velvet underground, i think that you'll see a singleminded consistency.
> i think conrad's doing exactly what he wants to do and he's been doing it
> for decades.

I haven't heard the Faust album, though I have heard the early Velvets
material. That Conrad is consistent in doing what he want is well, good,
and agreed.

> maybe check out phill niblock for less atonal experimentation...

Ooh, yeah! I have several of his CDs, and had his "China and Sunsets"(?)
video for awhile (before a bunch of my stuff was ripped off). Very
clear, quite exciting work (though I don't know if I'd want to hear a
large chunk of it live).

> > What variation I heard seemed to be happening chaotically. I'm not
> > convinced that Conrad had sufficient control over his instrument to be
> > getting these differences other than by accident.
>
> well, i was standing where i could see behind the scrim and i would have
> to disagree.  the music was indeteminate in many respects, but conrad's
> actions and choices betrayed no confusion that i could see.

I don't think he was confused, just that his grasp may have exceeded his
reach.

--
---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|

-



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From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: tony conrad's no bomb, but the bomb
Date: 18 Aug 1998 00:38:16 -0400

Matthew Colonnese wrote:
> All of these can be usefull descriptors of why one person did or did not
> like a piece of music, but too often (and I sense of whiff of this in
> Joseph's responces to TC*) they are used as universal measures of success
> or failure of piece.  They are nothing of the sort.  They are fairly
> arbitrary assumptions about artistic value used to reductively analyze
> music and then give these analyses some objectivity.

One light bulb goes on for me in reading this: if, in experiencing music,
I enjoy it at a gut level, I often don't dissect it very much, unless
it's in the sense of seeing what makes it tick so I can incorporate
those elements in my own work. If I dislike something, though, (and I'm
frequently razzed by my more judgmental friends about how rarely I ever
dislike anything), I tend to try to break it down into figuring out
what was meant, how it was done, the conditions in which it happened,
and the like, in the hopes of learning exactly what it was that didn't
work for me and how to avoid it. Experiencing the Conrad performance
helped me come to some realisations about duration, performance
structure, and performance space organisation that I hope to be able to
use in creating my own performances.

--
---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|

-



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From: [e-mail] (Adam MacGregor)
Subject: Non-musicians can't improv???  Nuts to that!!
Date: 18 Aug 1998 01:07:51 -0400

: Let me present
: you with an example from my area. A band in my town formed that was billing
: itself as a noise band. Having been acquainted with a few of the members of
: this band I knew full well that none of them (not one single one) had any
: idea how to even play their instrument. This is not good, improv in
: ignorance is akin to having no human intelligence actually attempting to
: affect sound. This is not music...it is not "organised sound". It is akin
: "to an act of nature or the sounds of machines. Without human interference
: they may be beautiful but they are not music. Needless to say, the
: performances of thisband were embarassing. They managed to pose as
: revolutionaries.Locally of course. But again if listening isn't enough to
: tell-perhaps you need to reexamine your understanding of music.Sorry about
: the essay....


OK...I have to take issue with this cat...What about the work of the
Nihilist Spasm Band?  For those of you on this list who may be unfamiliar,
I'd highly recommend checking out their stuff, it's all on import from
Alchemy.  These guys started a band with no desire at all to learn how to
play music on traditional instruments, even.  They began as a kazoo band in
1965 in London, Ontario, Canada and are still in existence today.  I had the
great pleasure to catch most of a show that they did in Pittsburgh, PA, last
October and was thoroughly impressed (after I had some time to sort out what
exactly the fuck I had just witnessed).  Their music is wholly improvised on
homemade instruments, and they're led by a cat named Bill Exeley who reads
his own language-poetry type texts in a basso profundo over a total wall of
clattering percussion, violin and guitar scree, kazoo shreiking, and
sometimes a theremin, according to thier webpage.  Check it out at
http://www3.sympatico.ca/pratten/NSB/ for some mind-blowing info.

I think that they provide sort of a nice contrast to improv music as an
otherwise "serious" and "groundbreaking" medium--rather, they sound like a
bunch of guys who are interested in presenting chaotic sound at "play," as
in Romper Room after a truckload of pixie-stix, if you know what i mean.


--adam


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Christian Heslop" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Non-musicians can't improv???  Nuts to that!!
Date: 17 Aug 1998 22:41:26 -0700

Mr. MacGregor,
    I didn't say that non-musicians were incapable of improvisation. That
would indeed be the only thing that they were capable of. My point was that
the "quality" of music can only be judged with knowledge of the performer's
intention otherwise if you enjoy something then there is no need to
persuade yourself otherwise. I personally enjoy The Jackson Fives "Dancin'
Machine" more than I do Stravinsky's Sym. in e-flat major. I see no reason
to question this. My other point was that if you can't determine the
difference between good and bad music when listening to it then you may
have a problem with your understanding of music. How else could you
determine it's quality if not by merely listening to it.
    "Musicians" are of course capable of producing bad music. Non-musicians
are not technically capable of producing good music when improvising, they
may simply find that they have done so. I'm frustrated...what exactly do
you mean by non-musicians? I personally feel that non-musicians would be
more likely to rely on the limited patterns that they can predict when
"improvising" than a skilled player would be. I find abhorrent the notion
that it is some sort of virtue to want to play music in ignorance.  I doubt
that such people can truly be said to love music. And after many encounters
with people who have done these same sorts of projects my assumptions have
been borne out. They seem to be more interested in thumbing their noses at
people who have made an effort to learn something about the medium. "you
don't need to learn music man...you just do it!" I can not verify your
example because I am not familiar with it, but nor can I discount it except
that you didn't really make clear whether they really were non-musicians
(people that don't know how to use an object to make sounds that they can
predict). If they are non-musicians then their product is not music...it is
sound


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Chris Genzel)
Subject: Re: experimental/ skills
Date: 18 Aug 1998 13:45:36 +0200


>> As some well known composer said a while ago (I forget who it was): by the
>> time it reaches an audience, it had better not be experimental anymore.
>> Experiment in the lab, if you want. Ap aying audience has a right to
>> expect at least a modicum of effectiveness.
>
> John Cage didn't like to use the word 'experimental' for his music for
> precisely this reason, that it implied somehow that the music wasn't
> "ready" yet.

    "I'll never forget what I experienced in the 60's when I played with
     Miles Davis. I learned such a lot when I was a member of his quintet.
     Saxophonist George Coleman used to practise in his room all day,
     experimenting on various scales and melodies. One day Miles said to
     him, 'I don't pay you for experimenting up in your room. I pay you
     for doing it with the band on stage.' And Miles was right. Experiment
     takes place in front of an audience, and the audience is a part of it.
     The true experimental field for a musician is the stage, and only
     during the concert there are moments of truth."
    (Herbie Hancock in an interview with Der Spiegel)


> you should start at the beginning-Monteverdi or something. Let me present
> you with an example from my area. A band in my town formed that was billing
> itself as a noise band. Having been acquainted with a few of the members of
> this band I knew full well that none of them (not one single one) had any
> idea how to even play their instrument. This is not good, improv in
> ignorance is akin to having no human intelligence actually attempting to
> affect sound. This is not music...it is not "organised sound". It is akin
> to an act of nature or the sounds of machines. Without human interference
> they may be beautiful but they are not music. Needless to say, the
> performances of thisband were embarassing. They managed to pose as
> revolutionaries.Locally of course. But again if listening isn't enough to

 But Arto Lindsay couldn't play the guitar as well. And he clearly couldn't
 sing. Myself, I can't play an instrument, but I'm the leader of a free-improv
 group. And I feel that we sound interesting nevertheless, and our performances
 could compare to, say, Material's Live From Soundscape (I realized this only
 after some performances, which means it's no plagiatism).

 Kind regards,
 - Chris.

 ---------------------------------------------
 *    Chris Genzel --- [e-mail]    *
 * Homepage & Herbie Hancock discography at: *
 *    http://home.t-online.de/home/stamil/   *
 ---------------------------------------------


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: David Beardsley <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Tri-Centric Festival, NYC
Date: 18 Aug 1998 08:41:24 -0400

>  [e-mail] wrote:
>
>
>      Visiting the Braxton-oriented Tri-Centric site at:
>
>         http://www-osf.wesleyan.edu/music/braxton
>
>      I saw the listing of this festival to take place at Greenwich House on
>      the weekends of 9/24-9/26 and 10/1-10/3. Though Braxton the composer
>      won't, apparently, be represented, he is performing with a number of
>      ensembles. Leading those groups will be: Rozanne Levin, Kevin Norton,
>      Seth Misterka, Taylor Ho Bynum, Morgan O'Hara, Bruce Morris, David
>      Novak, Jackson Moore, Richard McGee III, James Fei, Kevin O'Neil, Joe
>      Fonda, Brandon Evans and Chris Jonas, all of whom, I suppose, have
>      some relationship with AB at Wesleyan. I'm only familiar with two or
>      three of these names, mostly from work with Braxton. If anyone knows
>      more about any of these folk, I'd be curious to hear your impressions
>      of their music.

James Fei has been in Braxton's ensemble for a few years. He'sa student where Braxton
teaches.


--
* D a v i d        B e a r d s l e y
*           [e-mail]
*
* J u x t a p o s i t i o n     E z i n e
* M E L A  v i r t u a l  d r e a m house monitor
*
* http://www.virtulink.com/immp/lookhere.htm



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DR S WILKIE <[e-mail]>
Subject:       Miles Concert tapes
Date: 18 Aug 1998 13:17:06 GMT0BST

Hi,

just an off the cuff request, but if anyone has any Miles davis
concert recordings (audience, radio, whatever) that they'd be willing
to copy/trade, could they mail me off list ([e-mail]) with
the location and date of the concerts?  I'm afraid there's a lot I
don't want, but it would be too long to type out a list either way.
Also, I'll be away for a couple of weeks, so don't expect a quick
reply!  Thanks,

Sean

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Christian Heslop" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: experimental/ skills
Date: 18 Aug 1998 06:16:53 -0700

Chris,
    I think I would have to go with Varese on that question. But I do agree
somewhat with Miles Davis in terms of his purpose, if he wants to
experiment on stage then he isn't doing anything wrong by doing so. The
nature of jazz being improvisational I'm not really sure that you can still
call it experimental to do so in a "jazz" context and call experimenting.
Jazz musicians know what they are doing. I don't think that there is
anything more "experimental" about improv alone-it simply demands that you
compose more quickly.
    As to what you do...you say you are a non-musician?Then what are you
doing?! You and Mr.MacGregor seem to believe that I represent some sort of
classical music establishment or something in my definitions of musicians.
A musician is simply one who organises sound for a purpose-expressing with
sound alone (versus language). I also happen to believe that if the
"musician" is not aware of what they are producing then they are not
involved in any type of organisation-they are simply making sounds. If you
didn't know what it was going to sound like before you made it then you
can't possibly argue that there is a process of building going on that the
performer can take credit for. When you make music are you really unaware
of what you are doing-are your musical decisions based on your limited
musical vocabulary or do you free yourself of these constraints by being
ignorant (you said it). Do you think random noise is music?Do people
seriously believe that years of paractice etc. only limit the creative
wonders of the human ear. That's absurd-keep in mind I'm not saying to
limit yourself to instruments or written music BUT...
    You have to know what you're doing.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Christian Heslop" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Marc Downing
Date: 18 Aug 1998 07:09:23 -0700

I have a much broader def. of musician than you seem to think I do. An
effect of being a non-musician is not a definition (not technically capable
of producing etc.)My point about the Jackson five was exactly that AND I
never have made any statement about loftier purposes or baser purposes.
What does it matter? Your purpose is a personal thing. I draw a distinct
line between quality and preference and that is what the Jackson/Stravinsky
example was for. It seems I am having trouble understanding what you mean
by "non-musician". That was what I was asking you when I said that (your
tech proficiecy quote) try re-reading it.I said exactly that the only way
one could determine the quality of music was by judging it's establishment
of creator purpose. So I don't think you could say that I claim to know the
difference between good and bad music. Musical ignorance is my paraphrase
of a condition expressed by someone in an earlier post-people who don't
know what they are doing musically.I don't think this means someone who
can't read music or play a traditional instrument. There is no virtue in
ignorance.My examples may be offensive but so is your complete
misunderstanding of what I said. My reactions to performers like this are
based only on personal experiences-I have seen nothing of virtue and no
love of music from these people. That is all I know. It might all have been
a little muddy- I have personal reasons why this topic can cloud my reason.
I invite you to email me so that we both have the oppurtunity to hash this
out.I dont want to burden this list any more than I have.
        [e-mail]

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Marc Downing <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Non-musicians can't improv???  Nuts to that!!
Date: 18 Aug 1998 10:08:06 -0400

>the "quality" of music can only be judged with knowledge of the
>performer's intention

>I personally enjoy The Jackson Fives "Dancin'
>Machine" more than I do Stravinsky's Sym. in e-flat major. I see no reason
>to question this. My other point was that if you can't determine the
>difference between good and bad music when listening to it then you may
>have a problem with your understanding of music. How else could you
>determine it's quality if not by merely listening to it.

What were the intentions of the Jackson 5?  Are they, or is their music,
good or bad?  Are their aspirations, and therefore their intentions,
loftier or baser than those of Stravinsky?  Perhaps you consider it
unneccessary to judge the Jackson 5 because you enjoy them.

>    "Musicians" are of course capable of producing bad music. Non-musicians
>are not technically capable of producing good music when improvising, they
>may simply find that they have done so. I'm frustrated...what exactly do
>you mean by non-musicians?

It seems you already have an answer.  They are "not technically capable of
producing good music when improvising".  You also claim to know the
difference between good and bad music, even at a technical level.  I think
your intellectual position on the quality of music is based on your
definition of what musical "ignorance" is (see below).

>I personally feel that non-musicians would be
>more likely to rely on the limited patterns that they can predict when
>"improvising" than a skilled player would be. I find abhorrent the notion
>that it is some sort of virtue to want to play music in ignorance.  I doubt
>that such people can truly be said to love music. And after many encounters
>with people who have done these same sorts of projects my assumptions have
>been borne out. They seem to be more interested in thumbing their noses at
>people who have made an effort to learn something about the medium. "you
>don't need to learn music man...you just do it!" I can not verify your
>example because I am not familiar with it, but nor can I discount it except
>that you didn't really make clear whether they really were non-musicians
>(people that don't know how to use an object to make sounds that they can
>predict). If they are non-musicians then their product is not music...it is
>sound

I understand the "virtue in ignorance".  Intellectualizing something you
love can be the best way to kill it.  Your caricature of the "musically
ignorant" ("... don't need to learn music, man ...") is glib, and a little
offensive.  For some, playing and composing can be lifelong pursuits, but
the idea of "education" can be, at the same time, unproductive and
irrelevant.

The Nihilist Spasm band plays music, and makes sounds.  At the same time.

Marc



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "J.T. de Boer" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Non-musicians can't improv???
Date: 18 Aug 1998 16:37:24 +0200

> From:          "Christian Heslop" <[e-mail]>
> To:            <[e-mail]>
> Subject:       Re: Non-musicians can't improv???  Nuts to that!!
> Date:          Mon, 17 Aug 1998 22:41:26 -0700

> My point was that
> the "quality" of music can only be judged with knowledge of the performer's
> intention otherwise if you enjoy something then there is no need to
> persuade yourself otherwise.

I totally agree with you. I think the problem is the fact that some
of the music from for instance Zorn, Ribot, Baily etc. sounds like a
free experiment, but we all know these guys are absolutely familiar
with their instruments and have very clear visions of how it should
sound like. It's hard to determine though whether *soundsculptures*
of musicians we are not familiar with are meant to sound what they
sound like: are false tones always meant to be false? does the
drummer only want to play unregular rhythms?

>My other point was that if you can't determine the
> difference between good and bad music when listening to it then you may
> have a problem with your understanding of music.

You're right again.

> I find abhorrent the notion
> that it is some sort of virtue to want to play music in ignorance.  I doubt
> that such people can truly be said to love music.

No, they love to be cool... Being avantgarde is cool...

>They seem to be more interested in thumbing their noses at
> people who have made an effort to learn something about the medium. "you
> don't need to learn music man...you just do it!"

A few years ago I read an article in a dutch musicians magazine
called "Music Maker", which consisted of an interview with the
belgian band dEUS. They stated, out of the blue, that musicians like
Pat Metheny and Joe Satriani deserved to die, because they weren't
making music, but only playing notes. Satriani was a 'notefucker'
their guitarist said, because he played fast. I think this statements
of non-musicians or musicians who just can't play as well technically
as the musicians they critisize are just comments of pure
frustration. These people just don't like music! I've been a drummer
for 16 years (I'm 24 now) and I used to be frustrated to see
professional drummers play at clinics or regular concerts, because
they had chops I knew I never could play. But it's not the chops what
it's about, it's about musicality. Of course Satriani, Joey Baron
Chick Corea, Zorn, Ribot etc. can play fast, but they know when to do
it. They know when it's musically interesting. For me it took some
years to recognize the clear distinction between playing notes and
playing music. I know the chops of Joey Baron, I could write them
down and study on them, but what's the use of integrating them in
your own music when you only play it as a note-example? You may be
sounding like someone you respect, but is this what respect is about?
Please create your own ideas and use all the great music around as an
inspiration, don't use it as a symbol for fake-musicality!

>If they are non-musicians then their product is not music...it is
> sound

And anybody can make a scratcing sound on a distorted guitar.


Jeroen de Boer

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DR S WILKIE <[e-mail]>
Subject:       Re: Non-musicians
Date: 18 Aug 1998 15:14:12 GMT0BST

Just an aside to the debate, but isn't there a big difference between
recorded and live music, in this respect?  That the latter means
you're performing: not that the music can't play a BIG part in
that, but it can't JUST be music in that context, surely?
(Sometimes, this is a problem I have at concerts: I don't feel
they're performing - for this audience, at that time - at all).

Sean

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: experimental/ skills
Date: 18 Aug 1998 08:24:25 -0700


On Tue, 18 Aug 1998 06:16:53 -0700  "Christian Heslop" wrote:
>
> Chris,
>     I think I would have to go with Varese on that question. But I do agree
> somewhat with Miles Davis in terms of his purpose, if he wants to

It is fairly funny that people quote Miles Davis when we all know what he
said of most '60s avant garde artists...

Yes, Miles was talking about experimentation, but there were definitely things
that he believed was crap (and I don't agree with him).

This makes using Miles Davis quote fairly innapropriate in the context of this
discussion.

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "dekater" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Michel Godard
Date: 18 Aug 1998 18:43:02 +0200


Brian wrote:


>Relistening to the second disc of the La Banda album a few times, I've
>come around to enjoy it more and more, especially the piece by French
>tubaist Michel Godard. Is anyone familiar with his other work?

I'm not familiar with Godards work but during my vacation I bought a Nato cd
in Lyon ('Les films de ma Ville 1' - nato 112033) on which improvising
musicians play film themes (a.o. Steve Arguelles. Steve Beresford, Tony
Coe...) On it a duo Lol Coxhill-Michel Godard playing the tune from 'Mon
oncle', a film by Jacques Tati. Great!

Jan Luyben


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Scott Handley" <[e-mail]>
Subject: berne's no(h)bag tour: UK / dave Douglas
Date: 18 Aug 1998 10:51:28 PDT

It just occurred to me that I hadn't heard anything about Tim Berne's
medium-large ensemble tour of the UK, only about four or five dates.  It
was called the No(h)bag tour, and featured Evan Parker (!) and Django
Bates, among others.  Anybody catch any of these?  Even if you don't
want to post, could you at least let me know what I missed?

Also, Dave Douglas tapes are wanted!  Did THOUGHTS AROUND MAHFOUZ gig
more than once?

cheers,

scott


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Spirer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Praxis
Date: 18 Aug 1998 10:54:19 -0700

At 02:23 PM 8/17/98 -0700, Jeff Spirer wrote:
>At 05:01 PM 8/17/98 -0400, Kevin Neales wrote:
>>I noticed a Praxis Compilation CD at a record store today. It has all
>>previously released material including one Death Cube K song.  It is on
>>the Douglas label, but the packaging looked really cheap.
>>
>>However, I also noticed on the Koch webpage that there is a new Praxis
>>album due out this month called Mold on the Yikes label.  Does anyone
>>know anything about this?? Who plays on it????

This has been delayed until September 16.  In addition to the original
tracks by Bill, there is new stuff on it by Alex Haas (half of Cypher 7),
Pat Thrall, and David Castelan.


Jeff Spirer
B&W Photos: http://www.pomegranates.com/frame/spirer/
Color and B&W Photos: http://www.hyperreal.org/~jeffs/gallery.html
Axiom/Material: http://www.hyperreal.org/axiom/

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Spirer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Praxis
Date: 18 Aug 1998 10:54:19 -0700

At 02:23 PM 8/17/98 -0700, Jeff Spirer wrote:
>At 05:01 PM 8/17/98 -0400, Kevin Neales wrote:
>>I noticed a Praxis Compilation CD at a record store today. It has all
>>previously released material including one Death Cube K song.  It is on
>>the Douglas label, but the packaging looked really cheap.
>>
>>However, I also noticed on the Koch webpage that there is a new Praxis
>>album due out this month called Mold on the Yikes label.  Does anyone
>>know anything about this?? Who plays on it????

This has been delayed until September 16.  In addition to the original
tracks by Bill, there is new stuff on it by Alex Haas (half of Cypher 7),
Pat Thrall, and David Castelan.


Jeff Spirer
B&W Photos: http://www.pomegranates.com/frame/spirer/
Color and B&W Photos: http://www.hyperreal.org/~jeffs/gallery.html
Axiom/Material: http://www.hyperreal.org/axiom/

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Christian Heslop" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: experimental/ skills
Date: 18 Aug 1998 11:32:53 -0700

I didn't quote Miles Davis someone else on this post did.

----------
> From: Patrice L. Roussel <[e-mail]>
> To: Christian Heslop <[e-mail]>
> Cc: [e-mail]; [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: experimental/ skills
> Date: Tuesday, August 18, 1998 8:24 AM
>
>
> On Tue, 18 Aug 1998 06:16:53 -0700  "Christian Heslop" wrote:
> >
> > Chris,
> >     I think I would have to go with Varese on that question. But I do
agree
> > somewhat with Miles Davis in terms of his purpose, if he wants to
>
> It is fairly funny that people quote Miles Davis when we all know what he
> said of most '60s avant garde artists...
>
> Yes, Miles was talking about experimentation, but there were definitely
things
> that he believed was crap (and I don't agree with him).
>
> This makes using Miles Davis quote fairly innapropriate in the context of
this
> discussion.
>
>     Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:    [e-mail] (Patrick Carey)
Subject: VINYL/CD Sale (Updated 8/18/98) ...
Date: 18 Aug 1998 14:33:15 -0400

Hi,

I've just added a few new items to my vinyl/CD sale list.
They can be found (along with basic info) at the following
website:

http://www.astro.utoronto.ca/~carey/sofa/sale.html

If you are browser challenged, I can email you the list.
Just let me know.

New items include, among other things ... ° (Mika Vainio),
Pan(a)sonic, Coil, Scorn, Gastr Del Sol, Tortoise, Oval etc.

Thanks for looking.


-Patrick
[e-mail]





-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Marc Downing <[e-mail]>
Subject: Praxis recommendation
Date: 18 Aug 1998 15:45:58 -0400

I would like to get a Praxis cd.  It would be my first listening.  Does
anyone have any recommendations?

Marc



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Joseph S. Zitt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Praxis recommendation
Date: 18 Aug 1998 14:54:40 -0500 (CDT)

On Tue, 18 Aug 1998, Marc Downing wrote:

> I would like to get a Praxis cd.  It would be my first listening.  Does
> anyone have any recommendations?

The only one that I've heard is the live album with the Invisible Scratch
Picklez (sp?), which I love and recommend highly.

I just picked up their "Metatron" for $3 during lunch, and will listen to
it after this John Coltrane CD is over...

- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Min Xiao-Fen
Date: 18 Aug 1998 17:01:59 -0300

Hey Zornheads!

I've enjoyed a lot Min Xiao-Fen's playing in Filmworks VIII; is there
any other cd you could recommend me to dig in?

Thanks in advance,

Hugo

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: john shiurba <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: experimental/ skills
Date: 18 Aug 1998 13:13:22 -0700

Christian Heslop wrote:

> I also happen to believe that if the
> "musician" is not aware of what they are producing then they are not
> involved in any type of organisation-they are simply making sounds. If you
> didn't know what it was going to sound like before you made it then you
> can't possibly argue that there is a process of building going on that the
> performer can take credit for.

I have to take exception with this. I have played the guitar for over 20
years, and I'll tell you that whether composing or improvising, my
experience has been precisely the opposite of what you describe above.
The most profound and beautiful music is nearly always produced in those
moments when you don't know what's going to come out. Who if not the
performer should take credit for that music--I'm not sure.

> Do people
> seriously believe that years of paractice etc. only limit the creative
> wonders of the human ear.

No, I'd say that years of practice often go a long away toward opening
the possibilities, either instrumentally, or in terms of the ear. Not
necessarily, of course. There are plenty of well practiced players who
simply recreate what they've practiced when they play, which is quite
useful for classical musicians, but usually pretty uninspiring for
improvisers. I think most musicians who've improvised would say that
they're not completely in control of what comes out of their instrument,
no matter how practiced they are. At least I feel sorry for the bored
egomaniac who would claim otherwise.

--



[e-mail]
http://www.sfo.com/~shiurba

I don't wake up for less than $10,000 a day.
(L. Evangelista)

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Michel Godard
Date: 18 Aug 1998 16:39:41 -0400 (EDT)

Godard is also on Misha Mengelberg's newest disk on hatology.

Ken Waxman
[e-mail]

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Vanheumen, Robert" <[e-mail]>
Subject: klezmer theory
Date: 18 Aug 1998 17:00:50 -0400

hi there

i'm looking for a book to learn more about klezmer, that is to say, a
book with things like scales, chords, typical klezmer patterns etc; just
very dry stuff to practice (mmm)...
now i found dozens of books with completely written out klezmer tunes,
accompanied by chords, but that is not what i want...
i'm just looking for a dry practice book.
can anybody help me with a title?

thanks very much.
robert

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Spirer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Praxis recommendation
Date: 18 Aug 1998 14:06:59 -0700

At 03:45 PM 8/18/98 -0400, Marc Downing wrote:
>I would like to get a Praxis cd.  It would be my first listening.  Does
>anyone have any recommendations?

Start with _Transmutation_ on Axiom.   But you may want to wait for the
compilation CD coming out soon on Douglas.





Jeff Spirer
B&W Photos: http://www.pomegranates.com/frame/spirer/
Color and B&W Photos: http://www.hyperreal.org/~jeffs/gallery.html
Axiom/Material: http://www.hyperreal.org/axiom/

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Douglas Tapia)
Subject: Re: Praxis recommendation
Date: 18 Aug 1998 15:09:19 -0700

>I would like to get a Praxis cd.  It would be my first listening.  Does
>anyone have any recommendations?
>
>Marc

I noticed that Joseph S. Zitt recomends _Transmutations Live_  I would say
start with _Transmutations_  This is easy to find in the rock section filed
under "P"  It's a very funky album w/ Bootsie Collins and Bennie Worral on
board.  Great shreading from Buckethead.  Brain holds it all together.
Bill's production is typically "him".  If you can find _Sacrifist_ used on
CD pick it up.  It's a great recording and is extremely raw.  BTW, Zorn
guests on this one.

Happy listening,

Doug



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re:  Zorn List Digest V2 #434
Date: 18 Aug 1998 20:10:34 EDT

The MM Scofield-Hunter show should be very good. As for the new MMW album I
think it has a place in their discography. If you like move and shake etc.

Andrew

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Trey <[e-mail]>
Subject: Weird Little
Date: 17 Aug 1998 06:42:37 -0700


[NOTE FROM LIST-OWNER: The following message is from
Trey Spruance, he is not a member of the zorn-list so
if you want to include him in a discussion, please
explicitly include his email address.]


Hey, everybody.

Look, I am NOT "ANTI-ZORN". In fact I have quite an affinity for John Zorn as
a person. He has never "fucked me over" or been bad to me, we have not had a
falling out. WLB was ONE faulty project that I, in retrospect (it came out 3
years after the fact) regret having participated in.

      Since I was there (at the recording), I felt that I could help people
in ALT.NOISE avoid making a mistake. I voiced my opinion. It stands.


    No, I'm no Jazz Snob. Jesus, there's SO MUCH great music out there, and
so little $$$ (for some of us, at least). Look, I could keep quiet and just
go along with all this and get my little periodical handouts and back pats
for participating in uninspired/uninspiring "sure sells"...   You know, I've
been involved with some of the best Goddamned Cobra/Xu Feng performances -
improv is a hit-and miss-world and I definately accept that. But in those
performances, every meandering moment of pure searching bullshit is justified
by that one (maybe more) magical moment. In my opinion, WLB failed to produce
anything anywhere near one even remotely worthwhile moment. It was carried
only by extramusical motivations - such as cracking each other up...  Noble,
but it did'nt translate well onto recording. Can I be blamed as a musician
who was INVOLVED if I feel some kind of duty as a musician, with people out
there who follow what I do, to let those people know how I feel?

To the shameless 'scene' apologists, could y'all at least just back off on
the Gestapo-like defensiveness of anything Zorn-ular? I mean Jesus, I like
the guys' music, OK? In my opinion his ability to inspire great performances
in musicians is unparalleled, his compositional intuition is of the highest
order, I'm in awe of his command over instrumentation and orchestration, he
is very nice and congenial personally - I mean, gimme a break! The way I see
it, besides the people whose critical thinking has been completely squelched
by ridiculous over-zealousness, my only offense will be to the "completists".
This, because I hate weak improv! And I especially hate being INVOLVED in
weak improv. Many others (most of us) also hate weak improv. I have a right
to warn people (non-completists, non-zealots) that WLB is just another a weak
improv record.

Trey




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rich Williams <[e-mail]>
Subject: [Fwd: SONNY SHARROCK TRIBUTE@KNITTING FACTORY 8/23RE]
Date: 18 Aug 1998 22:58:51 -0500

Celebrating the Spirit of Sonny Sharrock



An evening of music "Celebrating the Spirit of Sonny Sharrock" will be
presented
in the Knitting Factory's Main Space, 74 Leonard Street between Broadway
and
Church
(six blocks below Canal), on Sunday, August 23rd, 1998 from 8:00 p.m. to
midnight.  The concert is a benefit for the Juvenile Diabetes
Foundation.

The community of players with whom Sonny Sharrock broke ground and
carried the
torch, alongside other players who have been greatly inspired by this
innovative
guitarist, will gather together for a passionate and heartfelt musical
tribute.
The evening will feature music that Sonny wrote and recorded over a
thirty year
span.  The list of performers includes Sonny's bandmates Pheeroan
akLaff, Lance
Carter and Abe Speller (drums), Charles Baldwin, David C. Gross, and
Charnett
Moffett (bass), John Stubblefield (saxophone), Ted Daniel (trumpet), and
several
guitarists who have been deeply inspired by his life and music,
including Jef
Lee Johnson, Robert Musso, Elliott Sharp, Tor Snyder, and James Blood
Ulmer.
There will also be tributes by family and friends, special messages from
such
musicians as Roy Ayers, Peter Brotzmann, Ronald Shannon Jackson, and
Herbie
Mann, and rare video footage of Sonny in concert.

Since making his distinctive mark in the early sixties alongside Don
Cherry,
Miles Davis, Pharoah Sanders, Wayne Shorter and others, Sonny has been
an
influence for generations of musicians.  It was Sonny's desire to expand
the
vocabulary of the electric guitar and give it the range, tonality and
textures
that saxophonists such as Albert Ayler and John Coltrane explored
through their
instruments.  Now, more than four years since his death, with his
stature and
influence continuing to grow, musicians are traveling to New York to
offer a
highly charged celebration of his musical innovations and his beautiful
spirit.

"Celebrating the Spirit of Sonny Sharrock"
The Knitting Factory, 74 Leonard St. betw. Church St. & Broadway
Sunday, August 23rd, 8-midnight
Venue information 212-219-3006 x 417

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Christian Heslop" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Weird Little
Date: 18 Aug 1998 20:14:18 -0700

I understand your sentiments exactly-there is a sort of integrity of
purpose that separates some works from others. Anyone is capable of minor
transgressions.Who hasn't horsed around a little.The WLB cd may be
interesting for this fact alone.I don't think I will buy it though, there
are too many other good works out there to ignore the opinion of a
participant.I personally think that it takes a sort of nobility for you not
to attempt to rationalize it at all but perhaps guilt drives you too far to
criticize it.What Cobra sessions that you have participated in would you
recommend?

----------
> From: Trey <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Weird Little
> Date: Monday, August 17, 1998 6:42 AM
>
>
> [NOTE FROM LIST-OWNER: The following message is from
> Trey Spruance, he is not a member of the zorn-list so
> if you want to include him in a discussion, please
> explicitly include his email address.]
>
>
> Hey, everybody.
>
> Look, I am NOT "ANTI-ZORN". In fact I have quite an affinity for John
Zorn as
> a person. He has never "fucked me over" or been bad to me, we have not
had a
> falling out. WLB was ONE faulty project that I, in retrospect (it came
out 3
> years after the fact) regret having participated in.
>
>       Since I was there (at the recording), I felt that I could help
people
> in ALT.NOISE avoid making a mistake. I voiced my opinion. It stands.
>
>
>     No, I'm no Jazz Snob. Jesus, there's SO MUCH great music out there,
and
> so little $$$ (for some of us, at least). Look, I could keep quiet and
just
> go along with all this and get my little periodical handouts and back
pats
> for participating in uninspired/uninspiring "sure sells"...   You know,
I've
> been involved with some of the best Goddamned Cobra/Xu Feng performances
-
> improv is a hit-and miss-world and I definately accept that. But in those

> performances, every meandering moment of pure searching bullshit is
justified
> by that one (maybe more) magical moment. In my opinion, WLB failed to
produce
> anything anywhere near one even remotely worthwhile moment. It was
carried
> only by extramusical motivations - such as cracking each other up...
Noble,
> but it did'nt translate well onto recording. Can I be blamed as a
musician
> who was INVOLVED if I feel some kind of duty as a musician, with people
out
> there who follow what I do, to let those people know how I feel?
>
> To the shameless 'scene' apologists, could y'all at least just back off
on
> the Gestapo-like defensiveness of anything Zorn-ular? I mean Jesus, I
like
> the guys' music, OK? In my opinion his ability to inspire great
performances
> in musicians is unparalleled, his compositional intuition is of the
highest
> order, I'm in awe of his command over instrumentation and orchestration,
he
> is very nice and congenial personally - I mean, gimme a break! The way I
see
> it, besides the people whose critical thinking has been completely
squelched
> by ridiculous over-zealousness, my only offense will be to the
"completists".
> This, because I hate weak improv! And I especially hate being INVOLVED in

> weak improv. Many others (most of us) also hate weak improv. I have a
right
> to warn people (non-completists, non-zealots) that WLB is just another a
weak
> improv record.
>
> Trey
>
>
>
>
> -

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Weird Little
Date: 18 Aug 1998 23:54:42 EDT

Is anyone else here as fascinated as I am by the reaction that this CD, of all
of Zorn's work discussed here, is generating?

Dale.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Francisco Fonz-GarcΘs" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Weird Little
Date: 19 Aug 1998 13:55:14 +0200

[e-mail] wrote:

> Is anyone else here as fascinated as I am by the reaction that this CD, of all
> of Zorn's work discussed here, is generating?
>
> Dale.

  Yes, I am. I have just come back from a trip where I took with me some Zorn┤s
CDs I┤d had no time to listen to (WLB was one of them) and... when I switch my
computer on I find a big amount of messages on this topic.
WLB is, perhaps, Zorn's recent purchases I┤m going to play less; but some phrases
are, IMHO, good enough to keep on trying afterwards ("Seance"... although is not
representative).
Has anybody found a precise relationship beetween the text and the music? I
haven┤t.

Ciao
Paco Fonz



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Chris Genzel)
Subject: Re: Miles Davis quote
Date: 19 Aug 1998 13:55:09 +0200


> I didn't quote Miles Davis someone else on this post did.

 I did.

>> It is fairly funny that people quote Miles Davis when we all know what he
>> said of most '60s avant garde artists...
>>
>> Yes, Miles was talking about experimentation, but there were definitely
>> things that he believed was crap (and I don't agree with him).
>>
>> This makes using Miles Davis quote fairly innapropriate in the context of
>> this discussion.

  Yeah, but basically, he dismissed every kind of music except his own (and
 the music of his companions). He even dismissed Eric Dolphy, but that's
 probably because Dolphy wouldn't want to play in his band. Nevertheless, Miles'
 music was very out there, at that time and still today.
  Read Lee Jeske's liner notes to "Agharta": "Miles always claimed to hate the
 jazz avantgarde--the only innovations of the post-bebop era that didn't have
 him at the immediate forefront--but Pete Cosey's first solo, a scratching,
 clawing bit of funkified noise over Al Foster's Herculean backbeat, is as
 avant-garde as anything being recorded in 1975. And, as Whitehead pointed
 out, this band--with its two percussionists and two guitarists and fractured
 time signatures--sounds remarkably close to Ornette Coleman and Prime Time
 (especially during Sonny Fortune's soulful alto solo in "Prelude"). But Prime
 Time wouldn't make its first recordings until the following year."

 Kind regards,
 - Chris.

 ---------------------------------------------
 *    Chris Genzel --- [e-mail]    *
 * Homepage & Herbie Hancock discography at: *
 *    http://home.t-online.de/home/stamil/   *
 ---------------------------------------------


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Chris Genzel)
Subject: Re: skills
Date: 19 Aug 1998 13:55:08 +0200


 Dear Chris,

>     As to what you do...you say you are a non-musician?Then what are you
> doing?! You and Mr.MacGregor seem to believe that I represent some sort of
> classical music establishment or something in my definitions of musicians.
> A musician is simply one who organises sound for a purpose-expressing with
> sound alone (versus language). I also happen to believe that if the
> "musician" is not aware of what they are producing then they are not
> involved in any type of organisation-they are simply making sounds. If you
> didn't know what it was going to sound like before you made it then you
> can't possibly argue that there is a process of building going on that the
> performer can take credit for. When you make music are you really unaware
> of what you are doing-are your musical decisions based on your limited
> musical vocabulary or do you free yourself of these constraints by being
> ignorant (you said it). Do you think random noise is music?Do people
> seriously believe that years of paractice etc. only limit the creative
> wonders of the human ear. That's absurd-keep in mind I'm not saying to
> limit yourself to instruments or written music BUT...
>     You have to know what you're doing.

  Let me clarify some things, including some of the things you said in other
 posts regarding this topic. You took many assumptions based on your experiences
 with non-musicians which, however, aren't that true.
  First of all, I never said that there's no need to learn an instrument.
 Musicians who haved learned their instruments and studied them are capable
 of playing lots of stuff which I'll never be able to do. Well, I wish I could
 play the guitar like Buckethead, but I can't, and I know that I don't have
 the endurance to study it long enough to become a "real" guitar player.
 But creating sound collages is a whole nother thang. Other members of the group
 *can* play their instruments, and I'm giving certain guidelines, conducting
 and adding some random noise, unusual percussion and vocalisms to the
 processings. I can't see why I shouldn't do all of this.
  Let me quote Marion Brown from his liner notes to "Afternoon of a Georgia
 Faun": "The music you're listening to is a collective experience involving
 six players, two vocalists, and three assistants. Although I am responsible
 for initiating the music, I take no credit for the results. Whatever they may
 be, it goes to the musicians collectively. The people that I chose to assist
 are not actually musicians, but people who have a sense of rhythm and melody.
 My idea here is that it is possible for non-musicians to participate in a
 musical experience without being technically proficient in a theorerical
 sense. In the future, I intend to use some non-musicians for the same reasons.
 It works. Try it sometimes."
  Second, it it simply nonsense to assume that people like me aren't music
 lovers, but the opposite (what's the opposite of a music lover?). Music is
 the highest and purest art for me, but this includes all kinds of music. A lot
 of "new music" doesn't sound like music, it sounds like sound. So where should
 you draw the borderline?
  Third ... you won't believe it, but I have another project running which
 I'm doing in the home studio I'm currently building up around my PC. The
 music I create there (and please don't ask me whether I use MusicMaker) has
 real harmonies, melodies, rhythms ... so I won't claim myself to be a composer,
 but I'm an arranger, producer, and engineer of sorts ... so would that change
 my status of non-musician? Right, that's difficult. I'm not sure myself.
  And fourth ... "being avantgarde" may be cool in our "community", but it's
 certainly not among others. If I wanted to be cool, I'd pick up a bass, learn
 it for, say, a year and start in a heavy metal or rock band. I don't intend
 to say anything against these styles, but that's what the people I know would
 think is cool.

 Kind regards,
 - Chris.

 ---------------------------------------------
 *    Chris Genzel --- [e-mail]    *
 * Homepage & Herbie Hancock discography at: *
 *    http://home.t-online.de/home/stamil/   *
 ---------------------------------------------


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "J.T. de Boer" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: skills
Date: 19 Aug 1998 15:30:49 +0200

> Date:          Wed, 19 Aug 1998 13:55:08 +0200
> To:            [e-mail]
> Subject:       Re: skills
> From:          [e-mail] (Chris Genzel)


>   Let me quote Marion Brown from his liner notes to "Afternoon of a Georgia
>  Faun": "The music you're listening to is a collective experience involving
>  six players, two vocalists, and three assistants. Although I am responsible
>  for initiating the music, I take no credit for the results. Whatever they may
>  be, it goes to the musicians collectively. The people that I chose to assist
>  are not actually musicians, but people who have a sense of rhythm and melody.
>  My idea here is that it is possible for non-musicians to participate in a
>  musical experience without being technically proficient in a theorerical
>  sense. In the future, I intend to use some non-musicians for the same reasons.
>  It works. Try it sometimes."

You say music is the purest artform for you. Do you consider music
made by non-musicians to be art? Why is music something *anyone* can
make? Have you ever read books (literature) written by someone who
isn't familiar with language, syntax, grammar? No, of course not! Why
should you read anything that's not readable! The language of music
may be harder to define, but that shouldn't be a reason to trie to
copy it and than say it's possible for anyone to make music. I think
that this works out bad for music in general and
experimental/avantgarde music in particular. Please keep that in
mind.

>A  lot  of "new music" doesn't sound like music, it sounds like
>sound. So where should  you draw the borderline?

I admit this is a hard question, but as I said earlier  it's not
about how it sounds like, but about the idea behind it, the theories
used to create the wanted sound. When Stockhausen produced his first
electronic compositions he had a clear vision of what he wanted and
worked out the technology necessary. In modern dance music you now
hear many of the sounds created by Stockhausen but I consider these
sounds alone less artful than the original sounds. In the visual arts
you have the same dilemma with considering childpaintings or works
produced by the mentally ill as art. The tendency is not to
describe it as such, because in most cases these people aren't
familiar with the theoretical/philosophical backgrounds and that's
what the institutionalized artworld is all about (read Arthur C.
Danto or George Dickie).


Jeroen de Boer

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Yves Dewulf <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: skills
Date: 19 Aug 1998 15:37:02 +0200

   From: "J.T. de Boer" <[e-mail]>

>   You say music is the purest artform for you. Do you consider music
>   made by non-musicians to be art? ...

    Music made by non-musicians ?????
    If it makes music, it must be a musician a presume (or a
    recording-device).


    YVes

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "J.T. de Boer" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: skills
Date: 19 Aug 1998 15:41:16 +0200

> Date:          Wed, 19 Aug 1998 15:37:02 +0200
> From:          Yves Dewulf <[e-mail]>
> To:            [e-mail]
> Cc:            [e-mail]
> Subject:       Re: skills

>    From: "J.T. de Boer" <[e-mail]>
>
> >   You say music is the purest artform for you. Do you consider music
> >   made by non-musicians to be art? ...
>
>     Music made by non-musicians ?????
>     If it makes music, it must be a musician a presume (or a
>     recording-device).

Ok Yves, you got me there. Slip of the tongue. I meant sound made by
non-musicians. Btw, do you speak dutch?

Jeroen

>
>
>     YVes
>

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: ScottRussell <[e-mail]>
Subject: Shopping in San Fran
Date: 19 Aug 1998 16:04:02 +0100

I know this has been covered recently so forgive my repetition but would
anyone care to reccomend disc shops in the San Francisco area? I have a
friend who will be there in early September. His interests include
zorn/improv/experimental/psychedelia etc new and used.

Mail me offlist.

Thanks in advance.

Scott Russell

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Allen Gittelson <[e-mail]>
Subject: San Francisco (Zorn, Praxis, Patton, Frith, Negativland, etc.)
Date: 19 Aug 1998 08:05:09 -0700

A few things in SF you might be interested in:

Fred Frith is playing tommorrow (Thursday, August 20, 1998 show at 9 PM)
at Slim's with Miya Masaoka and Phil Ochs.  I experienced this group
about a month or so ago at Yoshi's and thought the show was quite
superb.  Henry Kaiser seemed to enjoy the show, and who knows who else
was there whom I did not recognize (probably some people on this list if
I have to guess).

I found this in today's (Wednesday, August 19, 1998) issue of SF Weekly
(Page 36): [Their web page is: http://www.sfweekly.com , and the current
link to this mention is at
http://www.sfweekly.com/1998/current/riffraff1.html .

"Free Ink:  Aging teen-ager and SF Weekly cover boy Jonathan Richman
will play a Slim's 10th-anniversary party on Saturday, Sept. 19.
Co-owner Boz Scaggs starts a 10-day run of celebration concerts with two
shows and cake and champagne on Sept. 11.  Box Set, Common Sense,
Praxis, John Zorn, Mike Patton --who will debut two new pieces--and a
few others will also play gigs through Sept. 20."

I don't see any details anywhere of the Praxis, Zorn, or Patton shows at
this venue, but I will continue to look.  I have witnessed Zorn and
Patton at this venue previously with Ikue Mori.  The show I experienced
was pretty good, but I much prefer Yoshi's as a venue (even though it is
in Oakland which is quite a hike for me).

There is also quite an entertaining/interesting review of last week's
Spice Girls show at the SF Weekly site (and in the actual paper), but I
will refrain from even mentioning that it exists here as that would not
be appropriate.  (Chuckle.  Discuss amongst yourselves if you like.)

Also, for those of you who are interested in or follow the "goings-on"
of sampling, copyright law, etc.  Check out the latest at
http://www.negativland.com .  Always interesting to see what they are up
to.  They are discussing what amounts to possibly censorship of their
work and the work of others by the RIAA at present.  Further details at
their site.

-Allen

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "M. Forrest  Lewis" <[e-mail]>
Subject: masada 4
Date: 19 Aug 1998 09:13:55 -0600

i just picked up masada 4 from amazon.com (the price was only $12.99).
now the first thing i noticed was the length of the cd being less than 20
minutes. are the rest of the masada's short like this or do they vary in
length?
most of the masada's listed at the web site are this price and i just
wondered if this meant they were all short in play time.
this is my first masada and i'm not complaining, it's what i hoped it would
be (at least musically).
also, i've been offline for a while, but i remember someone saying
something about a masada box set. is this in the works or just a rumor?

-louie

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Robert A. Pleshar" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: San Francisco (Zorn, Praxis, Patton, Frith, Negativland,
Date: 19 Aug 1998 10:17:23 -0500 (CDT)

At 08:05 AM 8/19/98 -0700, Allen Gittelson wrote:
>A few things in SF you might be interested in:
>
>Fred Frith is playing tommorrow (Thursday, August 20, 1998 show at 9 PM)
>at Slim's with Miya Masaoka and Phil Ochs.

Surely you mean Larry Ochs, saxophonist from ROVA.
Phil Ochs is lamentably no longer with us.

Ralph


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Matthew Ross Davis <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: masada 4
Date: 19 Aug 1998 11:32:46 -0400 (EDT)

> i just picked up masada 4 from amazon.com (the price was only $12.99).
> now the first thing i noticed was the length of the cd being less than 20
> minutes. are the rest of the masada's short like this or do they vary in
> length?

Masada 4 is the "special offer" masada that you sent in proofs-of-purchase to
get for free (we could call it the Cereal Offer Masada). It is supposed to be a
lot shorter than all the others, though why they are asking an equal price is
kinda iffy.

| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | m - a - t - t - h - e - w | r - o - s - s | d - a - v - i - s | |
| | http://www.artswire.org/mrd | | | | | | | UMD school of music | |
| | m-e-t-a-t-r-o-n p-r-e-s-s | | | http://www.artswire.org/comma | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: skills
Date: 19 Aug 1998 08:28:27 -0700


On Wed, 19 Aug 1998 15:30:49 +0200  "J.T. de Boer" wrote:
>
> I admit this is a hard question, but as I said earlier  it's not
> about how it sounds like, but about the idea behind it, the theories
> used to create the wanted sound. When Stockhausen produced his first
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

By saying that you implicitely move the focus from the result (product)
to the rethoric surrounding/justifying it.

Read any Art publication where the rethoric seems always miles ahead of
the final product... You know, when it looks so good on paper and so
deceptive when you finally see/listen to the product.

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Silent Watcher" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Masada 10
Date: 19 Aug 1998 08:40:35 PDT

Sorry if this has already been posted. Masada 10 showed up in our
computer at work this week, with a release date of September 15. Knowing
our how these things run, I assume you all know that this is in no way a
steadfast date.

DB
Bill Laswell and Lori Carson Discographies at:
http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Underground/7093

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Marc Downing <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Weird Little
Date: 19 Aug 1998 11:42:05 -0400

>Is anyone else here as fascinated as I am by the reaction that this CD, of all
>of Zorn's work discussed here, is generating?
>
>Dale.
>
>-




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Caleb Deupree <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: masada 4
Date: 19 Aug 1998 11:29:47 -0400

>>>>> "Louie" == M Forrest Lewis <[e-mail]> writes:

    Louie> i just picked up masada 4 from amazon.com (the price was
    Louie> only $12.99).  now the first thing i noticed was the length
    Louie> of the cd being less than 20 minutes. are the rest of the
    Louie> masada's short like this or do they vary in length?  most
    Louie> of the masada's listed at the web site are this price and i
    Louie> just wondered if this meant they were all short in play
    Louie> time.  this is my first masada and i'm not complaining,
    Louie> it's what i hoped it would be (at least musically).

Masada 4 was originally a freebie for people who'd bought 1, 2, and 3,
and was an EP rather than a full length release.  The other Masadas
are full length CDs.  You can see all the tracks and timings at
Patrice's excellent discography at
http://www.nwu.edu/WNUR/jazz/artists/zorn.john/discog.html


---
Caleb T. Deupree
;; Opinions...  funny thing about opinions, they can change.

Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers.
(Pablo Picasso)


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: San Francisco (Zorn, Praxis, Patton, Frith, Negativland, etc.)
Date: 19 Aug 1998 08:38:32 -0700


On Wed, 19 Aug 1998 08:05:09 -0700  Allen Gittelson wrote:
>
> A few things in SF you might be interested in:
>
> Fred Frith is playing tommorrow (Thursday, August 20, 1998 show at 9 PM)
> at Slim's with Miya Masaoka and Phil Ochs.  I experienced this group
> about a month or so ago at Yoshi's and thought the show was quite
> superb.  Henry Kaiser seemed to enjoy the show, and who knows who else
> was there whom I did not recognize (probably some people on this list if
> I have to guess).

In fact, I was a little bit disappointed by their show in Portland. Why?
simply because Larry Ochs was overbearing. His playing was too powerful
most of the time, and as a result, the show ended up to be two trios (the
show was in two parts with a break). I would have loved the show to be made of
of the possible combinations: solos, duos, and trio. For example, I would
have love to listen to Fred and Miya playing in duo, but this did not
happen, except for a couple of seconds.

And no, I am talking of the usual sound engineer who cannot mix a concert.
The problem had nothing to do with mixing.

Talking to friends who saw the same band in Vancouver, they were surprised
because what I was expecting was what they saw. I guess, it was not the
best show of this formation.

    Patrice (who loves Larry's playing but who would have liked him to
        shup up once in a while that night :-).

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Shopping in San Fran
Date: 19 Aug 1998 08:30:06 -0700


On Wed, 19 Aug 1998 16:04:02 +0100  ScottRussell wrote:
>
> I know this has been covered recently so forgive my repetition but would
> anyone care to reccomend disc shops in the San Francisco area? I have a
> friend who will be there in early September. His interests include
> zorn/improv/experimental/psychedelia etc new and used.

This one is fantastic:

        Amoeba Music
        2455 Telegraph Ave
        Berkeley, CA 94704
        Tel: [phone]
        Fax: [phone]


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Allen Gittelson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Larry, not Phil (oops)
Date: 19 Aug 1998 09:08:03 -0700

Yes, I meant Larry Ochs (though Phil would have been interesting in the
mix). My mistake. -Allen

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Spirer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Shopping in San Fran
Date: 19 Aug 1998 09:04:39 -0700

At 08:30 AM 8/19/98 -0700, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:

>This one is fantastic:
>
>        Amoeba Music
>        2455 Telegraph Ave
>        Berkeley, CA 94704
>        Tel: [phone]
>        Fax: [phone]

I'm not sure how long it has been since Patrice visited the area, Amoeba
has a new, and better, store in San Francisco itself, on Haight Street near
the park.


Jeff Spirer
B&W Photos: http://www.pomegranates.com/frame/spirer/
Color and B&W Photos: http://www.hyperreal.org/~jeffs/gallery.html
Axiom/Material: http://www.hyperreal.org/axiom/

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Matthew Ross Davis <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: masada 4
Date: 19 Aug 1998 11:32:46 -0400 (EDT)

> i just picked up masada 4 from amazon.com (the price was only $12.99).
> now the first thing i noticed was the length of the cd being less than 20
> minutes. are the rest of the masada's short like this or do they vary in
> length?

Masada 4 is the "special offer" masada that you sent in proofs-of-purchase to
get for free (we could call it the Cereal Offer Masada). It is supposed to be a
lot shorter than all the others, though why they are asking an equal price is
kinda iffy.

| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | m - a - t - t - h - e - w | r - o - s - s | d - a - v - i - s | |
| | http://www.artswire.org/mrd | | | | | | | UMD school of music | |
| | m-e-t-a-t-r-o-n p-r-e-s-s | | | http://www.artswire.org/comma | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Chris Barrett" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Skills
Date: 19 Aug 1998 12:22:03 -0400


>You say music is the purest artform for you. Do you consider music
>made by non-musicians to be art? Why is music something *anyone* can
>make? Have you ever read books (literature) written by someone who
>isn't familiar with language, syntax, grammar? No, of course not! Why
>should you read anything that's not readable! The language of music
>may be harder to define, but that shouldn't be a reason to trie to
>copy it and than say it's possible for anyone to make music.

Ahhh yes, but a person may be able to tell a good story, even if he (or
she) can't write it down.  While it's anything but detrimental to know your
theory, even to know how to play your instrument,  you still need
creativity to makew it interesting/worthwhile.  And, for me, I find that
those who are technically proficient and have a vast store of formal
musical knowledge BUT are not creative (say, Joe Satriani?) are always less
interesting than someone with no musical knowledge, but very creative at
getting sounds out of whatever they are using.  Of course, the only
examples of this I can think of right now are my various artist friends who
would pick up a guitar or someother instrument and just start messing
around with it.  But usually they would get sounds out using some very
bizarre technique.

Formal music theory is merely the semantics of explaining what you are
doing, or attempting to do with a piece of music and/or an instrument.  It
isn't really required to play something, though it definitely helps.  Look
at all the early Jazz and blues greats who didn't read a note of music and
couldn't explain the theory at all, it just "sounded right".  Of course,
that could be why the established music world took so long in recognizing
them as legitimate forms of music....

-Chris



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Shopping in San Fran
Date: 19 Aug 1998 09:20:43 -0700


On Wed, 19 Aug 1998 09:04:39 -0700  Jeff Spirer wrote:
>
> I'm not sure how long it has been since Patrice visited the area, Amoeba
> has a new, and better, store in San Francisco itself, on Haight Street near
> the park.

A while, as you can guess. Do you have the address?

    Patrice.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Matthew Colonnese)
Subject: Re: skills
Date: 19 Aug 1998 12:22:53 -0400 (EDT)


>You say music is the purest artform for you. Do you consider music
>made by non-musicians to be art? Why is music something *anyone* can
>make? Have you ever read books (literature) written by someone who
>isn't familiar with language, syntax, grammar? No, of course not!

I've never seen a movie by someone who couldn't turn on a camera either.
It's dangerous to over-emphasize the similarities between the arts in this
regard. What aspects of music/sound, literature/writing, or cinema/visuals
are pleasant is an empirical, not rational.  And may not be the same for
different artforms.

Most of this debate seems to be the old "don't exclude me from your
definition" arguement.  As if not having the sound one likes labled "music"
matters.  It's fun to argue deffinition, but does it reduce the enjoyment
of particular sounds should they fall outside the definition.  Perhaps
people should be state more clearly if they are arguing quality or
definition when saying non-musician can or can't make music.


 In the visual arts
>you have the same dilemma with considering childpaintings or works
>produced by the mentally ill as art. The tendency is not to
>describe it as such, because in most cases these people aren't
>familiar with the theoretical/philosophical backgrounds and that's
>what the institutionalized artworld is all about (read Arthur C.
>Danto or George Dickie).

So being familiar with the theories of the institutionalized artworld is
required to make art?  Obviously there's been a long history of trying
remove this world's control over art.

matt


------
"Finally, a thing-a-ma-giggy that would bring people together...even if it
kept them apart, spatially."



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Spirer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Shopping in San Fran
Date: 19 Aug 1998 09:24:00 -0700

At 09:20 AM 8/19/98 -0700, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:
>
>On Wed, 19 Aug 1998 09:04:39 -0700  Jeff Spirer wrote:
>>
>> I'm not sure how long it has been since Patrice visited the area, Amoeba
>> has a new, and better, store in San Francisco itself, on Haight Street near
>> the park.
>
>A while, as you can guess. Do you have the address?

1855 Haight St
San Francisco, CA 94117-2711



Jeff Spirer
B&W Photos: http://www.pomegranates.com/frame/spirer/
Color and B&W Photos: http://www.hyperreal.org/~jeffs/gallery.html
Axiom/Material: http://www.hyperreal.org/axiom/

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: skills
Date: 19 Aug 1998 08:28:27 -0700


On Wed, 19 Aug 1998 15:30:49 +0200  "J.T. de Boer" wrote:
>
> I admit this is a hard question, but as I said earlier  it's not
> about how it sounds like, but about the idea behind it, the theories
> used to create the wanted sound. When Stockhausen produced his first
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

By saying that you implicitely move the focus from the result (product)
to the rethoric surrounding/justifying it.

Read any Art publication where the rethoric seems always miles ahead of
the final product... You know, when it looks so good on paper and so
deceptive when you finally see/listen to the product.

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "M. Forrest  Lewis" <[e-mail]>
Subject: masada 4
Date: 19 Aug 1998 09:13:55 -0600

i just picked up masada 4 from amazon.com (the price was only $12.99).
now the first thing i noticed was the length of the cd being less than 20
minutes. are the rest of the masada's short like this or do they vary in
length?
most of the masada's listed at the web site are this price and i just
wondered if this meant they were all short in play time.
this is my first masada and i'm not complaining, it's what i hoped it would
be (at least musically).
also, i've been offline for a while, but i remember someone saying
something about a masada box set. is this in the works or just a rumor?

-louie

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: David Keffer <[e-mail]>
Subject: everyone can make music
Date: 19 Aug 1998 12:55:48 -0400

> Why is music something *anyone* can make?
> Have you ever read books (literature) written by someone who
> isn't familiar with language, syntax, grammar? No, of course not! Why
> should you read anything that's not readable! The language of music
> may be harder to define, but that shouldn't be a reason to trie to
> copy it and than say it's possible for anyone to make music.

I have to disagree with this statement.  I remember reading in the
liner notes of a Charles Ives record a statement that Leonard Bernstein
made which ran, "The problem with minimalism is that anyone can do it."
The statement posted above is similar in tone to this statement, which
is basically a statement promoting elitism.  Bernstein implies that
"high art" must exclude the vast majority of the population.  His statement
says nothing about the quality of the music, only that something anyone
can do has some intrinsic problem.  The idea, which you voice above, that
not everyone can make music, forgets that everyone has hands and voices
and creative impulses.

With regard to literature, there are works in existence where the
writer was "uneducated", where the writer had only a rudimentary
knowledge of syntax and grammar, and a coarse vocabulary.  For example,
this weekend I was at the Chickamauga National Military Park, which is
a park on a U.S. Civil War battlefield in Georgia.  While I was there
I read some published journals of confederate soldiers.  These soldiers
had no education, misspelled every other word, had no conception of
punctuation, much less the theory of the elements of a classical
narrative.   All the same, those books were brilliant with common sense,
humor, and the humility of one who had no control over the actions, which
he was ordered to commit day after day for three years.

So my point is, just as it is not necessary to be a trained writer to
write an insightful, useful, and enjoyable book, so too is it unnecessary
to be a trained musician to make music.

David K.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Spirer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Praxis Tour (was Re: San Francisco...)
Date: 19 Aug 1998 10:57:51 -0700

At 08:05 AM 8/19/98 -0700, Allen Gittelson wrote:

>"Free Ink:  Aging teen-ager and SF Weekly cover boy Jonathan Richman
>will play a Slim's 10th-anniversary party on Saturday, Sept. 19.
>Co-owner Boz Scaggs starts a 10-day run of celebration concerts with two
>shows and cake and champagne on Sept. 11.  Box Set, Common Sense,
>Praxis, John Zorn, Mike Patton --who will debut two new pieces--and a
>few others will also play gigs through Sept. 20."

Although details aren't final, this is part of a West Coast tour for
Praxis.  Here is more info:

LA: Sept 19, Troubador
SF: Sept 20, Slim's
Seattle: Sept 22, venue not ready to be announced
Vancouver: After Sept 22, no venue yet
Portland: Some possibility of happening on the 21st or after the 22nd.

Praxis will be Buckethead, Bill Laswell, Brain, and a DJ to be announced.

>There is also quite an entertaining/interesting review of last week's
>Spice Girls show at the SF Weekly site (and in the actual paper), but I
>will refrain from even mentioning that it exists here as that would not
>be appropriate.  (Chuckle.  Discuss amongst yourselves if you like.)

I didn't think this review was nearly as interesting as the Chronicle's,
which pointed out that Sporty Spice is called Dykey Spice by some of her
fans.  I would have expected a semi-"alternative" paper like the Weekly to
have given us this tidbit.


Jeff Spirer
B&W Photos: http://www.pomegranates.com/frame/spirer/
Color and B&W Photos: http://www.hyperreal.org/~jeffs/gallery.html
Axiom/Material: http://www.hyperreal.org/axiom/

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Theo Klaase)
Subject: Heretic
Date: 19 Aug 1998 14:19:48 -0500 (CDT)

Would someone please Emial me privately and give me a detailed
description of Naked City's "Heretic" album.  Much thanks.
     If it would make it easier, I have all the other Naked City
records.  (if it can compare)


-Theo


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Eric Bosanko <[e-mail]>
Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #443 -Reply
Date: 19 Aug 1998 16:31:35 -0400

>I would like to get a Praxis cd.  It would be my first listening.  Does
>anyone have any recommendations?

Sacrifist is my Fav Praxis Album and gets my utmost reccomendation

Eric

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Marc Downing <[e-mail]>
Subject: thanks
Date: 19 Aug 1998 15:41:19 -0400

Thanks for the many Praxis recommendations.

Marc



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: San Francisco (Zorn, Praxis, Patton, Frith, Negativland, etc.)
Date: 19 Aug 1998 18:29:42 -0400 (EDT)

Will Phil Ochs be playing guiatr when he appears with Masaoka and Frith?
It seems to me his live appearance have been pretty sparse since the
early 1980s.

There but for fortune...

Ken Waxman
[e-mail]



On Wed, 19 Aug 1998, Allen Gittelson wrote:

> A few things in SF you might be interested in:
>
> Fred Frith is playing tommorrow (Thursday, August 20, 1998 show at 9 PM)
> at Slim's with Miya Masaoka and Phil Ochs.  I experienced this group
> about a month or so ago at Yoshi's and thought the show was quite
> superb.  Henry Kaiser seemed to enjoy the show, and who knows who else
> was there whom I did not recognize (probably some people on this list if
> I have to guess).






-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Chris Genzel)
Subject: Re: skills
Date: 19 Aug 1998 23:42:12 +0200


> You say music is the purest artform for you. Do you consider music
> made by non-musicians to be art? Why is music something *anyone* can
> make? Have you ever read books (literature) written by someone who
> isn't familiar with language, syntax, grammar? No, of course not! Why
> should you read anything that's not readable! The language of music
> may be harder to define, but that shouldn't be a reason to trie to
> copy it and than say it's possible for anyone to make music. I think
> that this works out bad for music in general and
> experimental/avantgarde music in particular. Please keep that in
> mind.

 I see and understand your point, but you got me wrong. I (and Marion Brown
 in his quote) was talking about the participation of non-musicians, which
 includes the participation of (trained) musicians as well. Brown says he
 had 6 players, 2 vocalists and 3 assistants = non-musicians. In my band,
 I am the only one who can't play, but I'm doing all the arranging, conducting,
 and I'm also seeking out ways to contribute sound like tape, samples or
 something like that.
 The question whether something is art or not is really hard. "But, ahhh,
 shouldn't there be some kind of structure?" (No prizes for guessing where this
 quote comes from.) This weekend, my sister visited me and took place behind
 my drum set, started banging around and screamed. I started screaming too.
 That, of course, wasn't art. We didn't follow any purpose, except to have fun.
 But when I'm "playing" with the musicians of my band, I have prepared concepts,
 we're trying out musical ideas and are actually quite serious about what we do.
 I don't know whether it's art, but since there's some effort behind this
 (in preparation and in execution) I just don't like people to dismiss it as
 something everybody could do (if they could do it, why don't they?).

 Kind regards,
 - Chris.

 ---------------------------------------------
 *    Chris Genzel --- [e-mail]    *
 * Homepage & Herbie Hancock discography at: *
 *    http://home.t-online.de/home/stamil/   *
 ---------------------------------------------


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Benito Vergara" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Shopping in San Fran
Date: 19 Aug 1998 16:46:53 -0700

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail]
> [mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Jeff Spirer
> Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 1998 9:05 AM

> I'm not sure how long it has been since Patrice visited the area, Amoeba
> has a new, and better, store in San Francisco itself, on Haight
> Street near
> the park.

Slim pickings for used Zorn right now; just came back from there this
afternoon empty-handed (well, I did come back with the new Bettie Serveert).
(There were used copies of "The Art of Memory," "Locus Solus" and "Yankees"
lying around, though.)

Later,
Ben

np: eric dolphy, "something sweet, something tender"

http://www.bigfoot.com/~bvergara/
ICQ# 12832406


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Keith McMullen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: San Francisco (Zorn, Praxis, Patton, Frith, Negativland, etc.)
Date: 19 Aug 1998 19:10:52 -0700

FWIW, Larry Ochs was anything but overbearing at the LA show. Masaoka plays
the most gorgeous koto I've ever seen and is a delight of delights to watch.
And Frith was absolutely stunning. Oh how he can use the strangest
techniques to make brilliantly crafted and beautiful music. Take something
to toss at Ochs if he returns from the dead or plays too much or too loud,
but by all means go.

Keith McMullen





-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Skills and all aesthetic discussion on zorn list.
Date: 20 Aug 1998 01:21:47 EDT

there is no place for any of us to judge others.  If the artist has an
intention, and by some means creates that, or something he finds to be equally
valid, he will use it. If the artist finds the work to be shit, i doubt it
will be used. Another point is, art shouldn't be judged by the artists who
made it, or how it was made, but on the art itself. This is the only way we
can truly see the art, of course if we are looking for the exact meaning, we
might want to look to the artist. Another issue of art is why it is created.
Art exists for reflection of the society in which it was created, outside of
aesthetic levels. even if someone is playing 1930's swing in modern times, we
can trace everything to questions like, Why is music from the past still valid
now? If we go back to the 1930's we can ask, how did this society encouarge
the evolution of this style? Because for the most part, Artists live in
society, and if not the artists, the art certainly does.
I have countless people who i have tried to turn on to john zorn. And to nit-
pick on which of his pieces are valid, or anyone's pieces are valid, is a
waste of time, because the larger part of the world isn't listening :) I don't
mean to sound angry in anyway, i just sort of hoped that my ideas might help
clear things up.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: SUGAR in their vitamins? <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Shopping in San Fran
Date: 19 Aug 1998 23:45:16 -0700 (PDT)

On Wed, 19 Aug 1998, Benito Vergara wrote:

> Slim pickings for used Zorn right now; just came back from there this
> afternoon empty-handed (well, I did come back with the new Bettie Serveert).

i've found the Berkeley store to be
better for jazz selection.

too, the prices in Berkeley are
significantly cheaper. it's not
surprising. everything in SF is
artificially high. Amoeba is just
going with the flow.

hasta.

Yes.  Beautiful, wonderful nature.  Hear it sing to us: *snap*  Yes.  natURE.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Marc Downing <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Skills and all aesthetic discussion on zorn list.
Date: 20 Aug 1998 09:13:24 -0400

This point:

>art shouldn't be judged by the artists who
>made it, or how it was made, but on the art itself.

may contradict this point:

>Art exists for reflection of the society in which it was created, outside of
>aesthetic levels.

unless you believe that artists must, by necessity and by intention, be
lenses for viewing a culture rather than an individual.  I'm unprepared to
accept that either is absolutely true.

>Because for the most part, Artists live in
>society, and if not the artists, the art certainly does.

So do you. So do I. So does our criticism.

>i just sort of hoped that my ideas might help
>clear things up.

Ideas like these are fascinating, but muckier than Lake Erie in spring.

Marc



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "J.T. de Boer" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: everyone can make music
Date: 20 Aug 1998 15:59:33 +0200



> From: "J.T. de Boer" <[e-mail]>
> > Why is music something *anyone* can make?
> > The language of music
> > may be harder to define, but that shouldn't be a reason to trie to
> > copy it and then say it's possible for anyone to make music.
>
> I have to disagree with this statement.  I remember reading in the
> liner notes of a Charles Ives record a statement that Leonard Bernstein
> made which ran, "The problem with minimalism is that anyone can do it."
> The statement posted above is similar in tone to this statement, which
> is basically a statement promoting elitism.

No it's not. I hate being called an elitist because I have certain
ideas about music, plus I disagree with Berstein that minimalism is
something anyone can do. Of course there are people who take the idea
of minimalist music (by hearing minimal music) and produce a
composition based on the parameters of minimalism, but I make a
distinction between people who can't work out an idea by themselves
and people who use the example to generate individual
ideas/compositions. I admit this is almost impossible to distinguish
but it's the theoretical idea I have. In this case people who can't
play an instrument can be good composers and vice versa.

>  Bernstein implies that
> "high art" must exclude the vast majority of the population.

He's wrong. Art in general  creates a distinction in a sociological
sense. I don't think art must be used to distinct, it's the
inevitable result of the being of art.

>  His statement
> says nothing about the quality of the music, only that something anyone
> can do has some intrinsic problem.  The idea, which you voice above, that
> not everyone can make music, forgets that everyone has hands and voices
> and creative impulses.

So someone who has a pair of legs, a pair of arms and a body plus a
creative idea about dancing can dance? I don't believe that theory
(but of course there are exceptions as in the book-example you
mention). I strongely believe that there are people who have
*creative impulses*  that are musically more valuable than other
peoples ideas. I say *musically*, because I DO think that the less
valuable ideas can be called music also, but we're making
value-judgements now and that's a completely other discussion.


Regards,

Jeroen



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Joseph S. Zitt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: everyone can make music
Date: 20 Aug 1998 09:13:36 -0500 (CDT)

On Thu, 20 Aug 1998, J.T. de Boer wrote:

> So someone who has a pair of legs, a pair of arms and a body plus a
> creative idea about dancing can dance?

Undeniably.

Whether another person might be interested in watching that person dance
is an entirely different, and only distantly related question.

- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Keith McMullen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Skills and all aesthetic discussion on zorn list.
Date: 20 Aug 1998 07:18:56 -0700

<<there is no place for any of us to judge others>>

Sure there is. There are a lot of places from which to judge others and
their ideas and their art. Just making the above statement is a rather
significant judgment in and of itself. What's wrong with discussing
judgements and debating them? Aren't we just pretending when we say we don't
have judgments, especially when it comes to our individual attitudes towards
and appreciation of music?

Keith



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Keith McMullen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: everyone can make music
Date: 20 Aug 1998 07:26:52 -0700

<<No it's not. I hate being called an elitist because I have certain
ideas about music>>

The whole 'elitist' argument is bogus. As soon as someone calls someone
'elitist' they are comitting the same act they are accusing the alleged
'elitist' of. They are saying their idea or opinion as a 'non-elitist' is
higher or better or more accurate than the opinion of the 'elitist' and in
so doing are contradicting themselves. Ken Wilber writes eloquently on this
point and on the nature of hierarchy (nee holarchy) in his book 'Sex,
Ecology, and Spirituality' which may provide a very nice model for
discussing the different levels of music.

np: Kenny G.

Keith




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Skills and all aesthetic discussion on zorn list.
Date: 20 Aug 1998 09:42:27 -0500




Orangejazz wrote:

>there is no place for any of us to judge others.

Oh, of course there is. Humans evolved to judge and differentiate, including
judging other people and their work. Your argument only holds water if you
bring in some religious imperative against judgment delivered from on high, in
which case argument becomes futile.

>  If the artist has an intention, and by some means creates that, or something
>he finds to be equally valid, he will use it. If the artist finds the work to
>be shit, i doubt it will be used.

Yeah, we should be so lucky. You vastly underestimate humans' capacity for
cynical manipulation (he said, cynically). Have you turned on the TV in the
last 30 years? Oh, you might say, but that's not art! Well, who are you to
judge that? TV sitcoms are certainly an art-form, even if 99%+ are god-awful.
Is it that unreasonable to pass judgment that "The Simpsons" is several orders
of magnitude "greater" than [pick your show]? Do you think the creators of "The
Love Boat" (thus risking the wrath of the rare JZ/Love Boat fan) were under the
delusion that they were creating anything other than a piece of shit? Do you
think Kenny G is? Exactly where along the line from Mr. Guralnik to Mr. Zorn do
you decide that it becomes "art"?

(snip)

> Art exists for reflection of the society in which it was created, outside of
>aesthetic levels.

I really hope you meant "as a" instead of "for". If not, I think you're way,
way off base.

     >I have countless people who i have tried to turn on to john zorn. And
     >to nit- pick on which of his pieces are valid, or anyone's pieces are
     >valid, is a waste of time, because the larger part of the world isn't
     >listening :)

     So, we should only discuss and criticize the Spice Girls?

     Brian (who thinks Scary Spice is the prettiest) Olewnick



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:    William York <[e-mail]>
Subject: New Don Byron
Date: 20 Aug 1998 12:51:01 -0400 (EDT)

Anyone else got this?  I think it's awesome, similar to the title trk. on
Tuskeegee EXp with Sadiq narrating, but I have rarely heard such a good
and musical combination of this type of semi-spoken delivery w/ actual
well playedand written music.  Even if you profram out the spoken parts ,
there are still 60 min left nearly all excellent, and surprising that Blue
Note put something so non-lame out.

WY


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Matthew Colonnese)
Subject: Re: Skills and all aesthetic discussion on zorn list.
Date: 20 Aug 1998 13:26:39 -0400 (EDT)

>Orangejazz wrote:
>
>>there is no place for any of us to judge others.
>
>Oh, of course there is. Humans evolved to judge and differentiate, including
>judging other people and their work.Your argument only holds water if you
>bring in some religious imperative against judgment delivered from on high, in
>which case argument becomes futile.

As a biological-anthro major I heard a lot of wacky theories explaining how
and why humans evolved, but this is new.  We also evoloved separation of
work by sex, but this has rightly fallen into disrepute of late (in theory
if not practice so much).  There are a number of cognitive/logical
arguements we, as humans, make that have no firm grounding.  I would turn
your argument around and say the only way we can judge is if the rules of
such judgment are delivered from above.  You can decide not to like
something, come up with very interesting and informative, though ultimately
arbitrary, arguments to explain this dislike.  You could even form whole
schools of these critera, and as long as the rules are well understood, the
judgements would be valid.  But still arbitrary, or at least not
necessitated.

>Is it that unreasonable to pass judgment that "The Simpsons" is several orders
>of magnitude "greater" than [pick your show]? Do you think the creators of
>"The
>Love Boat" (thus risking the wrath of the rare JZ/Love Boat fan) were
>under the
>delusion that they were creating anything other than a piece of shit?

I think the creators of "The Simpsons" play upon the pseudo-rebellious
tastes of its target audience to the same degree as those of the "Love
Boat" (not that this statement does not imply either are cyncial). It's
just that their target is young, urban(e) and hip. And at least the latter
has the straight forward honesty to be all shmarmy about the wonder of love
etc...while "The Simpsons" comes off as tired, hip and cynical and comes to
the same conclusions.

matt, who learned much of the flora and fauna of Australia from a Love Boat
special, but little from The Simpsons.  Yet still watches The Simpsons far
more.




------
"Finally, a thing-a-ma-giggy that would bring people together...even if it
kept them apart, spatially."



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: David Keffer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: everyone can make music
Date: 20 Aug 1998 13:44:22 -0400

Keith McMullen writes:
>The whole 'elitist' argument is bogus. As soon as someone calls someone
>'elitist' they are comitting the same act they are accusing the alleged
>'elitist' of. They are saying their idea or opinion as a 'non-elitist' is
>higher or better or more accurate than the opinion of the 'elitist' and in
>so doing are contradicting themselves.

This statement is sophistry.  All of us know have encountered an
elitist situation at some time and are fully capable of identifying
it as elitism.  To recognize a person as an elitist is not an elitist
act, just as acknowledging that a person is a racist is not a racist
act.

Your statement is a textbook example of the common inability
to distinguish between an intellectual observation and personal
judgment based on the observation.  To identify a person as an
elitist is different from condemning or praising the person
for the elitist act (and thus participating in elitism oneself).

This post has nothing to do with the original musical discussion,
but I felt inclined to argue that "The whole 'elitist' argument is
not bogus."

David K.



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re[2]: Skills and all aesthetic discussion on zorn list.
Date: 20 Aug 1998 14:18:43 -0500




I wrote:

>> Humans evolved to judge and differentiate, including judging other people
>>and their work.Your argument only holds water if you bring in some religious
>>imperative against judgment delivered from on high, in which case argument
>>becomes futile.

     you replied:

>As a biological-anthro major I heard a lot of wacky theories explaining
>how and why humans evolved, but this is new.

Hi Matt,

I may have been less than clear, but I didn't mean to imply that these were
the _only_ reasons humans evolved, but these qualities were certainly opted
for. Early humans, for example, needed to judge the differences in fruit to
determine which were poisonous and which not (or which were more or less
healthy, sweet, etc.). Judgmental abilities were in high demand when
complete information was lacking. Similarly, the ability to read gestures,
facial expressions etc. in otherwise unknown humans would, I think, be
quite beneficial to an individual's chances of survival and would've been
strongly opted for. Eventually, I imagine (I'm no former bio-anthro major
so I defer to your um, judgment, if this is off-base), one's differential
ability was used to judge whose sandals looked better-made and whose icon
was likelier to protect the family tent. From there to art critics...

My point was simply that judging and evaluating everything, including art,
seems to me an innately human attribute. And not, necessarily, a bad one.

     Brian Olewnick









-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Christian Heslop" <[e-mail]>
Subject: skills and all aesthetic discussion on zorn list
Date: 20 Aug 1998 11:43:45 -0700

    "Art exists for reflection of the society in which it was created, outside
of
    aesthetic levels."

I'm not exactly sure what you mean here...(reflection "on" maybe?) but you
seem to be saying that one form of judgement is "valid" and the other is
not. Rather than proscribing criticism you seem to be establishing a new
criterion upon which all works may be judged. Example...

    " Artists live in society, and if not the artists, the art certainly
does."
    "Why is music from the past still valid now?"...
    "how did this society encouarge the evolution of this style?"

I have reversed the order of your comments but I don't believe that I have
changed the meaning by doing so.  You seem to be saying that music can be
considered (judged?) against the relationship of the artist's work to
society.  Is a work without the proper cultural context for it's existence
a "valid" one? You also seem to be assuming that society is the catalyst
for artistic change. I believe however that an artist creates an atmosphere
for artistic revolution..how else can we explain resistance? But whether
symbols influence a culture or culture influences symbols...I don't know.

    "Another issue of art is why it is created"

Then you have given us another criterion for criticism. If art has a "why"
then if that "why" is not satisfied it must be invalid. For criticism to be
invalid, artistic endeavour has to be completely motiveless.

    "If the artist finds the work to be shit, I doubt it
    will be used."

And what if it is? Are we still unable to judge? You have again implied
that there are standards for judging art. I don't really see the difference
between creator judgement and witness judgement if art "exists for the
reflection of society" I don't have the space to finish attacking what you
thought would "clear everything up". Forgive the vitriol but thats pretty
arrogant.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Mike Chamberlain)
Subject: Re: New Don Byron
Date: 20 Aug 1998 19:03:07 GMT

William York,[e-mail],Internet writes:
>Anyone else got this?  I think it's awesome, similar to the title trk. on
>Tuskeegee EXp with Sadiq narrating, but I have rarely heard such a good
>and musical combination of this type of semi-spoken delivery w/ actual
>well playedand written music.  Even if you profram out the spoken parts ,
>there are still 60 min left nearly all excellent, and surprising that Blue
>Note put something so non-lame out.

I've only had a chance to listen to about half of the album.  Nobody can
accuse Byron or Blue Note of playing things safe, that's for sure.  It's
already a subject of discussion on Amos's Sandbox (a/k/a rec.music.bluenote).
 I'll bet the album gets more bad than good reviews, but I like what I have
heard of it.  Both the music and the poetry stand up.

--Mike

WY


-



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: New Don Byron
Date: 20 Aug 1998 13:02:23 -0700


On 20 Aug 1998 19:03:07 GMT  Mike Chamberlain wrote:
>
> I've only had a chance to listen to about half of the album.  Nobody can
> accuse Byron or Blue Note of playing things safe, that's for sure.  It's
> already a subject of discussion on Amos's Sandbox (a/k/a rec.music.bluenote).
                     ^^^^
Amos cares about Byron? I thought he was only annoyed at Peter Brotzmann and
Evan Parker :-).

    Patrice (who's missing the fun).

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: campax <[e-mail]>
Subject: Pizza, mandolini e mamma
Date: 20 Aug 1998 23:21:20 +0200

Curiosity killed the cat, I know : Is there any italian, or italilian
speaking, on this list?


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Claudio Koremblit" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Experimenta en internet
Date: 20 Aug 1998 22:28:17 -0300

Desde hoy el ciclo porte=F1o de musicas experimentales de todo el mundo,
Experimenta, tiene su pagina en la red, con la informacion de los musicos
que se presentaran durante el a=F1o, ensayos, biografias, fotos, y en poc=
o
tiempo mas se agregara la informacion de los artistas que participaron=20
en el 97 y los que lo haran en el futuro. Mucha de esta informacion esta
por primera vez en castellano en la red. Los musicos argentinos=20
participantes no estaban representados en este medio.
Desde el 12 de septiembre se transmitira en vivo por la red.
Cualquier propuesta o sugerencia sera bienvenida.


Since today Experimenta, experimental music series from all over the worl=
d
in Buenos Aires, have a web site on internet, with information about
the musicians that will make presentations during the 98, essays,
bios, pictures, and some time more later will have the information
about 97 and the future. Mostly of this information became to the
internet for the first time in spanish. The argentinian musicians
don't have other sites on line.
Since september 12 will transmite the performances on internet.
Some proposal or suggestion will be grateful.

http://www.datamarkets.com.ar/experimenta

[e-mail]



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Chris Sundberg <[e-mail]>
Subject: Links
Date: 20 Aug 1998 20:41:39 -0600

Does anybody know some good Zorn or Naked City links? I've been to
tzadik.com, and that is great, but I want all I can get.

\mOONS/


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Sibree/Wilkes)
Subject: Auction - Free jazz/avant garde LPs
Date: 21 Aug 1998 18:29:24 +0800

List members might be interested in my latest auction list posted to
rec.music.marketplace.vinyl under the heading of NUMBAT JAZZ AUCTION LIST 5
- MOSTLY FREE JAZZ/AVANT GARDE.  Alternatively, email for details.  Please
note my computer will not be in operation between 23 and 27 August.

Billy



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "J.T. de Boer" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: skills and all aesthetic discussion on zorn list
Date: 21 Aug 1998 15:37:27 +0200



> I have reversed the order of your comments but I don't believe that I have
> changed the meaning by doing so.  You seem to be saying that music can be
> considered (judged?) against the relationship of the artist's work to
> society.  Is a work without the proper cultural context for it's existence
> a "valid" one?

I discussed this with a friend yesterday, and in the case of music
it's difficult to find out in which case music is relevant:
sociological/philosophical/music-theoretical. What's the meaning of a
certain work? Music it's the most abstract artform there is, so
grasping the meaning of a work seems to be most valid (or better
said, the slightest abstract approach) when being familiar with the
sociological background of the musician/composer or the world
surrounding him. Popular music-criticism is almost totally based on
this view.
In the case of "serious music" this sociological point of view isn't
as dominant as in the popular music domain, because theoretical
analysis of the work itself is largely the basis of judgement. But
because of the complexity of the musical language it's almost
impossible to judge a work only on this language.

>  You also seem to be
> assuming that society is the catalyst
> for artistic change. I believe however that an artist creates an atmosphere
> for artistic revolution..how else can we explain resistance?
> "Another issue of art is why it is created"
>
> Then you have given us another criterion for criticism. If art has a "why"
> then if that "why" is not satisfied it must be invalid. For criticism to be
> invalid, artistic endeavour has to be completely motiveless.

There are art-theories that contend the argument that artists work
with an artistic system, a model that justifies a work. Now
(postmodern society) it's precisely the time to use these systems to
judge works of art, because nearly every artist seems to have his own
artistic language. The problem with this theory is the fact whether
an artist really works with this model. A lot of artists only give
meaning to their work after completion, or give a meaning only to
make a work more valid in terms of criticism. Judging works on this
ground is only possible when you know an artist is really working
with such a system.


Jeroen de Boer

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "J.T. de Boer" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: everyone can make music
Date: 21 Aug 1998 16:10:45 +0200

David Keffer wrote:

> With regard to literature, there are works in existence where the
> writer was "uneducated", where the writer had only a rudimentary
> knowledge of syntax and grammar, and a coarse vocabulary. All the same, those books were
> brilliant with common sense, humor, and the humility of one who had
> no control over the actions, which he was ordered to commit day
> after day for three years.
>
> So my point is, just as it is not necessary to be a trained writer
> to write an insightful, useful, and enjoyable book, so too is it
> unnecessary to be a trained musician to make music.
>
> David K.

I wrote:
> <<No it's not. I hate being called an elitist because I have certain
> ideas about music>>

From which position do you judge these works then? You compare my
opinion about not mastering the language of music with your jugements
on not mastering the language of literature. You have to pay
attention to keep in mind where these creators plus the people who
judge come from. In your case first there is a substantial gap
between the time of creation and the time of judgement and second a
totally different sociological background. My judgement is completely
based on contemporary music (whether it's popular or non-popular) and
on contemporary criticism. I don't deny the fact that a work which is
produced by someone who isn't capable to play with the relevant
artistic language can't be interesting/humourous etc, but I don't say
it's art. The books in your example I don't consider as literature
when judged with contemporay parameters, but as an historican I maybe
*can* see it as literature. This argument I can basically use in my
opinion about not judging certain " forms of sound" as music/art. I
believe in the fact that there is a gradation in considering music
as art.


Jeroen

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:    William York <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: New Don Byron
Date: 21 Aug 1998 11:10:35 -0400 (EDT)

> > I've only had a chance to listen to about half of the album.  Nobody can
> > accuse Byron or Blue Note of playing things safe, that's for sure.  It's
> > already a subject of discussion on Amos's Sandbox (a/k/a rec.music.bluenote).
>                      ^^^^
> Amos cares about Byron? I thought he was only annoyed at Peter Brotzmann and
> Evan Parker :-).
>
>     Patrice (who's missing the fun).

I don't know anything about rmb or Amos but I know this is the kind of
album that would annoy precisely the right people I would like it to.  I
mean, I don't agree with all of "Furman", the last song, but its good to
not agree with everything I think.

I feel like people, even conservative jazz fans, are more comfortable with
the supposed "socio-political implications" of Charles Gayle, for example,
or other folks who are so far on the margins that its like they're
screaming into the wilderness, rather than someone like D.B. who has a
more visible, direct approach.  I think in this way D.B. is more
challenging to people's preconceptions, so I would expect criticisms.  (he
has a lot in common with J.Z. and Ken Vandermark for ex. who 'have it
together', and they all 3 seem to catch more crap than the avg. poor as
dirt free jazz player).

Nothing against Charles Gayle, no offense meant to his fans (Of whom I am
not one for what its worth).

William York



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: David Keffer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Not only can everyone make music but...
Date: 21 Aug 1998 11:20:41 -0400

J.T. de Boer wrote:
>"I believe in the fact that there is a gradation in considering
>music as art."
You have switched our argument from
"non-musicians cannot make music" to "non-musicians
make music inferior in various artistic qualities to
the music made by trained musicians."

These statements are two entirely different statements.
We were only discussing the first statement.  In order
to discuss the second statement we must first agree that
your scale of "gradation in considering music as art"
exists.  Of course, there are many people who don't believe
there is any substance to an arbitrary value system assigned
by one segment of the population that ranks one form
of art/music/lit as "esthetically superior" to another.  I am
one of them.  So, I don't think we have a common ground to
discuss the new topic.  But......since I am a son of a bitch
who just likes to argue, let me pretend that I do believe
that art/music/lit can be ranked in terms of merit, that
it can put into various gradations of an undefined "goodness".

Let me use a different sort of hypothetical example.
Surely you will not say that there is a direct correspondence
between the skill of the musician and the "merit" (for lack
of a better word) of the music.    If we lived in a world
of Olympics-style scales, and if we gave a musician a score of 5
(on a scale of 1 to 10, 1 being a non-musician, and 10 being a
virtuoso) in terms of instrument proficiency, that doesn't mean that
we will give his music also an "art factor" of 5 (on a 1-to-10)
scale.  A musician with a lower instrument proficiency ranking
could very well create a piece of music with a higher art factor
than that of a musician of high instrument proficiency.  (I think you
must agree with this.  There are examples of uninspired performances by
virtuosos all over and uninspired compositions by virtuosos.)
In that case, since we have established the existence of such a
discrepancy in our two scales, we imply that it is
possible for a non-musician (low instrument proficiency score)
to create a piece of high compositional merit.  I'm not saying
it is done every day but I am saying it is possible and that it
has been done.  This argument I think illustrates that "Not only can
non-musicians can make music but it is possible for non-musicians
to make music of equal or superior quality to that of trained
musicians."

David "Art Factor" K.



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Not only can everyone make music but...
Date: 21 Aug 1998 08:57:06 -0700


On Fri, 21 Aug 1998 11:20:41 -0400  David Keffer wrote:
>
> J.T. de Boer wrote:
> >"I believe in the fact that there is a gradation in considering
> >music as art."
> You have switched our argument from
> "non-musicians cannot make music" to "non-musicians
> make music inferior in various artistic qualities to
> the music made by trained musicians."

It is fairly common knowledge that when people talk about things and
put them in two boxes (such as "good" and "bad"), this has to be
interpreted as a continuum of values ranging from "bad" to "good",
with, in the middle a region where you keep your judgement for
yourself :-). It is common, in the fire of an argument, and based on
economy principles, to project a complex problem with many degrees
of freedom (such as aesthetic value in art) on a single line with
ordering properties, and, to avoid boring your audience, finally
down to two alternatives: pretty/ugly, good/bad, smart/stupid, etc.
It does not mean that the person using the binary reduction of the
complex problem is naive to the point of believing it literaly. It
is just a commodity of language.

I guess J.T. de Boer realized that this simple evidence about the
most elementary rule of rethoric was still escaping some :-).

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Theo Klaase)
Subject: Help Wanted
Date: 21 Aug 1998 10:43:16 -0500 (CDT)

I have and enjoy the following:
Naked City(self titled) Radio,  Black Box
Zorn - Filmworks 1,3,5,6,and 8
           a few others but this is my favorite stuff.

Could someone Email Me privately on some recomendations.  Something
along the lines of the above albums....Thanks


-Theo





-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: David Keffer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Not only can everyone make music but...
Date: 21 Aug 1998 13:52:39 -0400


Patrice L. Roussel wrote:
>...It does not mean that the person using the binary reduction of the
>complex problem is naive to the point of believing it literaly. It
>is just a commodity of language.
>I guess J.T. de Boer realized that this simple evidence about the
>most elementary rule of rethoric was still escaping some

You speak of the "good/bad binary reduction" but the two statements in
question deal with two different reductions.  One is the music/non-music
binary choice.  The second statement implies the good music/bad music
binary choice.  I think, especially in the arena of experimental music,
that these two reductions are distinct.

David K.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "m. rizzi" <[e-mail]>
Subject: zorn-list Info Sheet (LONG)
Date: 21 Aug 1998 10:57:12 -0700 (PDT)


                    The John Zorn Mailing List
                     Subscriber Information
                         9 July 1998

[NOTE: Please save a copy of this message for later reference]


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Thanks for joining the zorn-list.  Enjoy!

    - mike rizzi, [e-mail]





-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Bob Kowalski <[e-mail]>
Subject: mild dissention / Douglas & Cohen cds = BRAVO !!
Date: 21 Aug 1998 14:49:39 -0400

Thank goodness for the zorn-list-digest format ... whopping % of the
latest discussion threads(music ability, ...et al) have me wondering if
folks are listening / have time to listen to any of the music vaguely hinted
at in said discussions.  Its not without merits and it is a noble cause but
hey folks, its still summer

currently enjoying Dave Douglas and Greg Cohens' excellent latest discs

;^ ) Bob

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: mild dissention / Douglas & Cohen cds = BRAVO !!
Date: 21 Aug 1998 15:23:24 -0500




Bob wrote:

>currently enjoying Dave Douglas and Greg Cohens' excellent latest discs

Ok, ok, musico-philosophical arguments suspended...for at least one post.

Which Douglas do you mean? I picked up "Charms of the Night Sky" (Winter &
Winter) last week and enjoy it quite a bit, though I'm a sucker for anything
with Klucevsek. My wife was pleasantly surprised at the appearence of the Tosca
piece; between this and La Banda, she thinks she'll have me loving Italian opera
yet. Also picked up eight or nine others (birthday splurge). After I give them
another listen, I'll post some mini-reviews. They included:

Rabih Abou-Khalil       Odd Times
Peter Brotzmann         Chicago Octet/Tentet
Cornelius Cardew        Thalmann Variations
Cornelius Cardew        Piano Music 1959-71 (John Tilbury on piano)
Kevin Drumm             Kevin Drumm
Fredric Rzewski         De Profundis, etc (Anthony da Mere on piano)
Howard Skempton         Well, Well, Cornelius (Tilbury)
John Wall               Fractuur

Anyone who's already heard these, I'd love to hear comments. Much of the
Brotzmann is killer.

Brian Olewnick

NP: Barry Adamson, As Above So Below





-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Chris Sundberg <[e-mail]>
Subject: Barbetomagus
Date: 21 Aug 1998 13:54:46 -0600

I was looking at Music Boulevard for a Zorn CD and I looked for related
artists, I found one, name Barbetomagus.  If anyone here could point me
in the direction of how to get a CD or a realaudio sound clip I would
much appreciate it.

\mOONS/


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: mild dissention/ Douglas & Cohen cds= BRAVO!!
Date: 21 Aug 1998 17:07:24 -0300

Brian Olewnick wrote:

>Winter) last week and enjoy it quite a bit, though I'm a sucker for
>anything with Klusevsek

Does it mean it's not a recommendable cd? Not good enough?
Please more light on this.


-Hugo

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: ganryu island and bolan
Date: 21 Aug 1998 16:15:51 EDT

2 questions. what is ganryu island? is it another lost classical composition?
or what? and also can someone please resend the list of performers and songs
on the bolan tribute?

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: ganryu island and bolan
Date: 21 Aug 1998 13:27:27 -0700


On Fri, 21 Aug 1998 16:15:51 EDT  [e-mail] wrote:
>
> 2 questions. what is ganryu island? is it another lost classical composition?
> or what? and also can someone please resend the list of performers and songs
> on the bolan tribute?


031 - GANRYU ISLAND: Michihiro Sato and John Zorn

    1/ Ryu Kyu Heishi (Warrior from Ryu Kyu)                             6:09
    2/ Haguregumo (The Wanderer)                                        14:10
    3/ Two Ronin                                                         3:49
    4/ Kagemusha                                                        10:39
    5/ Odori Dayu (Evening Dance of a Courtesan)                         5:16
    6/ Ganryu Island                                                    11:09
    7/ Yoshiwara Kaidan (Ghosts of the Geisha District)                  3:30

    Recorded on November 23rd, 1984, New York City

  Michihiro Sato: shamisen; John Zorn: reeds.

    1985 - Yukon Records (USA), Yukon Records 2101 (LP)
    1998 - Tzadik (USA), TZ ???? (CD)

  Note: the CD reissue has not been released yet (planned for September 1998).


*** - GREAT JEWISH MUSIC: MARC BOLAN: various artists

  This record features Arto Lindsay (1), Rebecca Moore (2), Kramer (3),
  Melvins (4), Medeski/Martin & Wood (5), Lo Galluccio (6), Mike Patton (7),
  Tall Dwarfs (8), Chris Cochrane (9), Gary Lucas (10), Eszter Balint (11),
  Audio Noir (12), Danny Cohen (13), Elysian Fields (14), Sean Lennon & Yuka
  Honda (15), Cake Like (16), Trey Spruance (17), Buckethead (18), Lloyd Cole
  (19).

    1/ Children Of The Revolution        (Arto Lindsay)
    2/ Telegram Sam                (Rebecca Moore)
    3/ Get It On                (Kramer)
    4/ Buick McKane                (Melvins)
    5/ Groove A Little                (MM&W)
    6/ Cosmic Dancer                (Lo Galluccio)
    7/ Chariot Choogle                (Mike Patton)
    8/ Ride A White Swan            (Tall Dwarfs)
    9/ Rip-Off                    (Chris Cochrane)
    10/ Debora Arobed                (Gary Lucas)
    11/ Mambo Sun                (Eszter Balint)
    12/ Jeepster                (Audio Noir)
    13/ Lunacy's Back                (Danny Cohen)
    14/ Life's A Gas                (Elysian Fields)
    15/ Would I Be The One            (Lennon, Honda)
    16/ Love Charm                (Cake Like)
    17/ Sceneslof                (Trey Spruance)
    18/ 20th Century Boy            (Buckethead)
    19/ Romany Soup                (Lloyd Cole)

    1998 - Tzadik (USA), TZ 71?? (CD)

  Note: not released yet (planned for September 1998).


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "M.A. Piper" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Borbetomagus
Date: 21 Aug 1998 15:32:05 -0500 (EST)

Chris,

Forced Exposure offers several of their CD's

there's a good interview with Jim Sauter (sax) at:
http://www.furious.com/perfect/borbetomagus.html

the borbetomagus website: http://www.j51.com/~borbeto/

The self-titled BORBETOMAGUS is what I'd suggest for starters. Borbeto is
really, really intense free improv and definitely not for the timid.

On Fri, 21 Aug 1998, Chris Sundberg wrote:

    >I was looking at Music Boulevard for a Zorn CD and I looked for related
    >artists, I found one, name Barbetomagus.  If anyone here could point me
    >in the direction of how to get a CD or a realaudio sound clip I would
    >much appreciate it.
    >
    >\mOONS/
    >

Best,
Michael


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Caleb Deupree <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Brian's recent goodies
Date: 21 Aug 1998 16:53:44 -0400


    brian> Rabih Abou-Khalil Odd Times

Isn't this the one with Howard Levy (harmonica)?  I've got a couple of
other Abou-Khalil albums which I really liked (one of the jazz ones
with Kenny Wheeler and Steve Swallow, and Arabian Waltz with the
Balinescu Quartet), but this one hasn't done anything for me yet,
maybe a little too frantic.  As I remember it's kind of percussion
heavy too, and there's no harmonic middle to fill things out.

    brian> John Wall Fractuur

Excellent!  More subtle than Alterstill, moving into a unique sound
world.  The samples are no longer as recognizable, and he blends in
live instruments as well.  I've also splurged recently and got the
Resonance magazine with Wall playing live with some DJs on the CD --
I'll post something when I've had a chance to listen to it.




---
Caleb T. Deupree
;; Opinions...  funny thing about opinions, they can change.

Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers.
(Pablo Picasso)


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Brian Olewnick <[e-mail]>
Subject: [Fwd: Re: Brian's recent goodies]
Date: 21 Aug 1998 17:42:17 -0400

Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-IDT-v5  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <[e-mail]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Caleb Deupree wrote:
>
>     brian> Rabih Abou-Khalil Odd Times
>
> Isn't this the one with Howard Levy (harmonica)?

That's the one. I've only listened to it once, but liked it pretty well.
It's less jazz-oriented than I might have guessed, sounds a lot more
like something Simon Shaheen might have done with this instrumentation
(oud, harmonica, tuba and percussion).

>Fractuur
> Excellent!  More subtle than Alterstill, moving into a unique sound
> world.  The samples are no longer as recognizable, and he blends in
> live instruments as well.

Again, after one listen, I was pretty impressed. As you mentioned, the
samples are virtually unrecognizable (I think I picked out some
Penderecki and Xenakis, but that was about it). In that sense, he seems
much closer to Carl Stone than Oswald and others, though the output is,
musically, much different. I hadn't heard his work before--is his
earlier stuff well worth checking out?

Brian Olewnick


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Caleb T. Deupree" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Brian's recent goodies
Date: 22 Aug 1998 07:31:27 -0400

At 05:42 PM 8/21/98 -0400, you wrote:
>>Fractuur
>> Excellent!  More subtle than Alterstill, moving into a unique sound
>> world.  The samples are no longer as recognizable, and he blends in
>> live instruments as well.
>
>Again, after one listen, I was pretty impressed. As you mentioned, the
>samples are virtually unrecognizable (I think I picked out some
>Penderecki and Xenakis, but that was about it). In that sense, he seems
>much closer to Carl Stone than Oswald and others, though the output is,
>musically, much different. I hadn't heard his work before--is his
>earlier stuff well worth checking out?
>
Alterstill is *definitely* worth checking out.  There's a lot of the same
kind of atmospherics, but then he'll toss in some recognizable Zorn or
Painkiller or some other heavy metal stuff.  The first one (name escapes
me) is much harder to find and embryonic.  The interview with him in
Resonance 6.2 is also worth reading, going into some depth on his methods
and rationales.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Marc Ribot and Tricky
Date: 23 Aug 1998 12:22:19 -0700


    I just bought the CD EP BROKEN HOMES by Tricky and (to my surprise)
noticed that Marc Ribot plays on one track (acoustic guitar!). Does somebody
who has Tricky's last full length record could check if Ribot appears on?
Same question for the other CD EPs (there seen to be at least two).

    Thanks,

    Patrice.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Spirer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Marc Ribot and Tricky
Date: 23 Aug 1998 12:33:31 -0700

At 12:22 PM 8/23/98 -0700, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:
>
>    I just bought the CD EP BROKEN HOMES by Tricky and (to my surprise)
>noticed that Marc Ribot plays on one track (acoustic guitar!). Does somebody
>who has Tricky's last full length record could check if Ribot appears on?
>Same question for the other CD EPs (there seen to be at least two).

Ribot appears on one other track on the CD (_Angels with Dirty Faces),
titled "Talk to Me."


Jeff Spirer
B&W Photos: http://www.pomegranates.com/frame/spirer/
Color and B&W Photos: http://www.hyperreal.org/~jeffs/gallery.html
Axiom/Material: http://www.hyperreal.org/axiom/

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re:  Marc Ribot and Tricky
Date: 23 Aug 1998 15:43:10 EDT

Ribot appears on three songs on Tricky's recent full-length, Angels With Dirty
Faces: 6 Minutes, Talk To Me (Angels With Dirty Faces), and Broken Homes.

Jon

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "J.T. de Boer" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: mild dissention / Douglas & Cohen cds = BRAVO !!
Date: 24 Aug 1998 11:55:35 +0200

> Thank goodness for the zorn-list-digest format ... whopping % of the
> latest discussion threads(music ability, ...et al) have me wondering if
> folks are listening / have time to listen to any of the music vaguely hinted
> at in said discussions.

As a matter of fact I just picked up the following CD's this weekend:

Sheena Parkins-Isabelle
Marc Ribot-Shrek and Don't Blame Me
John Zorn-Masada 1
Cyro Baptista-Villa Lobos Vira Loucos
Dave Douglas-Tiny Bell Trio (second album)

Recommendations are welcome. Btw, has any of you heard the following
album? It's by Zorn, Sharp, Horvitz and Previte. I don't remember the
title.

Jeroen

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "J.T. de Boer" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Not only can everyone make music but...
Date: 24 Aug 1998 12:42:10 +0200

> J.T. de Boer wrote:
> >"I believe in the fact that there is a gradation in considering
> >music as art."
> You have switched our argument from
> "non-musicians cannot make music" to "non-musicians
> make music inferior in various artistic qualities to
> the music made by trained musicians."
>
> These statements are two entirely different statements.

Hi David,

No, for me they're not. When I talk about music in this discussion,
I mean music as art. That's possibly the reason why my point of view
didn't get across and why my opinion seems so rigid. Indeed the
discussion started as the question whether anyone could make music,
but for me it was a logical step to broaden the discussion, because
art became involved. I understand that this could seem like a escape
from the discussion, but it's not.

Furthermore you seem to think that I connect technical ability of
playing an instrument with art. I wrote in an earlier email:

> Of course there are people who take the idea
> of minimalist music (by hearing minimal music) and produce a
> composition based on the parameters of minimalism, but I make a
> distinction between people who can't work out an idea by themselves
> and people who use the example to generate individual
> ideas/compositions. I admit this is almost impossible to distinguish
> but it's the theoretical idea I have. In this case people who can't
> play an instrument can be good composers and vice versa.

Art for me (and I'm sure for many other people) can be defined in a
very broad sense. Judging music as art and/or order it as good/bad is
largely a matter of flexibility. Of course I can use the factor of
technical ability in my judgement, but I trie to be as impartial as
possible. When you say a virtuoso player can have uninspired
performances or ideas I totally agree with you, but maybe there are
other factors that can make their music art, for instance their
motives to play a certain piece, or their artistic system if they
have one.

> We were only discussing the first statement.  In order
> to discuss the second statement we must first agree that
> your scale of "gradation in considering music as art"
> exists.

I think just this question can work out as a clarifying aspect of the
discussion, because we don't share the same point of view.

> In that case, since we have established the existence of such a
> discrepancy in our two scales, we imply that it is
> possible for a non-musician (low instrument proficiency score)
> to create a piece of high compositional merit.  I'm not saying
> it is done every day but I am saying it is possible and that it
> has been done...

...As I said in the above mentioned earlier email...

>  This argument I
> think illustrates that "Not only can
> non-musicians can make music but it is possible for non-musicians
> to make music of equal or superior quality to that of trained
> musicians."

Now you're mingling two totally different aspect of music: the
ability to play and the ability to compose. The art in music for me
only exists if the idea of a piece is existing in the artists' mind.
I think it's essential to determine which aspect of music we're
talking about.


Jeroen


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "J.T. de Boer" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: skills
Date: 24 Aug 1998 15:19:01 +0200



> I take issue with this: I agree with whoever said that learning more
> about music opened up many different doors and showed me that
> different things were possible  in the instruments that i was using,
> yet at the same time - don't consider myself to be a 'better' musician
> than when i started out.

Please let me make clear that I've never said that a better
instrumentalist is also a better musician. Some people on the list
seem to think that, but it's just not the case. I'm not sure whether
it's an argument which is used solely to attack my opinions or a way
of thinking that is based on a defensive attitude against a so-called
'elitist' approach towards 'non-music' which I seem to represent. In
either case these aren't good arguments to discuss with me,because
they aren't applicable to this thread.

>  the 'vocabulary' of
>  music as you put it, is
> something that everyone has.

No, first of all I mean that everybody (in this case anyone who
makes,or think who makes music) *seems* to have it, and besides that
I think that if anyone has a thourough command on this
vocabulary,this doesn't mean that all of these persons can make
music, music as art.

> Also, how about folk musicians (Tuvan overtone singers for example).
> They often have NO musical training of an official nature and
> understand nothing about music in a formal sense.  They understand
> sound and they understand what makes them want to make music.  They
> have SOUL.  (or we hope they do) that's what makes successful music.
> For that matter howabout Chet Baker, most people would call him a
> musician, but he didn't even know what a key signiature was (i
> personally find his playing pleasant but rather dull sometimes).

A I stated in earlier emails one can't compare cultural outings which
come from a complete other culture (Tuvan) or period (Baker), at
least not in this discussion, because I stick to the opinion that
this thread is about contemporay music. You can pass judgement on
them though but in that case it's not  solely about the art as art
anymore, but you integrate history in it as well (it is nice to
discuss though!).

> > I admit this is a hard question, but as I said earlier  it's not
> > about how it sounds like, but about the idea behind it, the theories
> > used to create the wanted sound.
>
> Let me guess, you don't go dancing very much.

Well, I dance a lot:). Please let me make clear that the view you
used from me is now completely separated from the original context:

I wrote:
> When Stockhausen produced his first
> electronic compositions he had a clear vision of what he wanted and
> worked out the technology necessary. In modern dance music you now
> hear many of the sounds created by Stockhausen but I consider these
> sounds alone less artful than the original sounds.

Enjoyment is not the issue here. I mean, I enjoy a lot of
dance-music, blockbuster-movies etc., but you won't hear me say that
all of these forms of culture art artforms.

>  Or i completely misunderstood your
> point of view.

No, not completely:)

Jeroen


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Alan E Kayser <[e-mail]>
Subject: "Downtown NY" comes to Philadelphia
Date: 24 Aug 1998 10:29:08 -0400

For all of you out there in the Greater Philadelphia area who are tired
of the 2 hour journey to NY to see and hear good jazz:
                        SWEETNIGHTER PRODUCTIONS
                                PRESENTS
                        Check out our web site at
                http://home.att.net/~lankina/sweetnighter

                             UPCOMING SHOWS
                             September 4 8PM
                        OTHER DIMENSIONS IN MUSIC
                              October 4 4PM
                            KEN VANDERMARK 5
                             October 10 8PM
                           ANDY LASTER'S HYDRA
                             December 6 4PM
                     URI CAINE'S MAHLER/PRIMAL LIGHT

If you would like to be added to our mailing list  send your info to
[e-mail].


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Jason J. Tar" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Brian's recent goodies
Date: 24 Aug 1998 10:28:31 -0400

>Kevin Drumm             Kevin Drumm

What is his music like?  I noticed that he'll be playing in Chicago in
October with Otomo Yoshihide.


>    brian> John Wall Fractuur
>Resonance magazine with Wall playing live with some DJs on the CD --
>I'll post something when I've had a chance to listen to it.

The track is quite good, though the rest of the disc didn't strike me.
(Except for Ground Zero vs. Xentos.  Anyone ever heard of Xentos before??)

>Again, after one listen, I was pretty impressed. As you mentioned, the
>samples are virtually unrecognizable (I think I picked out some
>Penderecki and Xenakis, but that was about it). In that sense, he seems
>much closer to Carl Stone than Oswald and others, though the output is,
>musically, much different. I hadn't heard his work before--is his
>earlier stuff well worth checking out?

_Alterstill_ is quite good, though a bit noisier and easier to pick out
samples.  _Fear of Gravity_ however isn't so good.  I've only listened to
it a few times, but it never struck me as anything close to as good as the
other two.

The Resonance Magazine does have an interview with him, though I've yet to
read it.

Some recent purchases of mine which may be of note on this list include:
Jon Rose _Techno Mit Strungen_.  live recording featuring some 20+ artists.
 Main three seem to be Frank Schulte (?), Otomo Yoshihide, and Christian
Marclay.  Some notables among the others include Rose, Chris Cutler, Fred
Frith, Mark Ribot, Evan Parker, etc.  Haven't listened to it enough yet,
but seems fairly good.  Lots of diversity and not too meandering.  :)
Broken up into 34 tracks to help future listens.
Orchester 33.3 on Mego.  Not the normal sine wave, noise of Mego, but some
actual compositions.  A 13-piece ensemble lead by Christian Fennesz and
Christof Kurzman, it does combine well several genres of sound.  Again I
haven't listened enough to make too valid of a review, but it seems fairly
well done.  Peter Brotmann guests on one track.

Unfortunately, while both cds have information in English, the liner notes
are in German in both, and the Orchester 33.3 has multimedia in MAC only,
so can't tell if those add any aspects to the works.  Bother.

---
Peace Hugs and Unity            Jason J. Tar
        W.    W.    J.    D?
                  (What would Jason Do?)
      http://pilot.msu.edu/user/tarjason
              ICQ@13792120

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Downtown Lullaby was re:mild dissension
Date: 24 Aug 1998 11:42:23 -0500






>Sheena Parkins-Isabelle

Ah yes, she does that solo harp version of 'Hollyrock' ;-)

>Recommendations are welcome. Btw, has any of you heard the following
>album? It's by Zorn, Sharp, Horvitz and Previte. I don't remember the
>title.

     'Downtown Lullaby'. Got it a few weeks back and think it's very good
     (far superior, IMHO, to the Previte/Zorn duo, though a lot of folk
     here liked that much more than I). This one is also, apparently, all
     improv but finds itself in a more rockish groove, often verging on
     70's Miles territory, but isn't everybody lately?

     My one mild complaint, actually, is the rut I find that JZ gets into
     when working in rock contexts. He seems to pull out that one squeal at
     the drop of a hat. Everyone else, especially Horvitz and Previte, are
     fine.

     Brian Olewnick




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Kevin Drumm was Re[2]: Brian's recent goodies
Date: 24 Aug 1998 11:58:37 -0500





>>Kevin Drumm             Kevin Drumm

>What is his music like?  I noticed that he'll be playing in Chicago in
>October with Otomo Yoshihide.

     I've yet to listen a second time, but the first impression wasn't too
     great. It's solo guitar, almost always played in such a manner as to
     mask the guitar origins. My problem is that on most of the tracks, the
     sounds seem arbitrary, in subtle distinction to random. It's a hard
     distinction to qualify, but someone like Bailey strikes me as making
     _precisely_ the sound he intended at that split-second. Drumm struck
     this listener as mere doodling around. There is one cut (about 9
     minutes) that's a sustained drone and which is much more interesting
     to me than all the hen-scratching.

     Brian Olewnick




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re:  Kevin Drumm was Re[2]: Brian's recent goodies
Date: 24 Aug 1998 13:31:39 EDT

well, clearly it's just a matter of taste, but I do feel somewhat obliged to
defend the Kevin Drumm record (we are talking about the one on Perdition
Plastics, right?) as it was on my top 10 list of 1997. I haven't heard this
record in a few months, but what impressed me about it was, in part, the fact
that Drumm had managed to dredge up a whole new set of sounds from a guitar. I
also felt like there was an internal logic to the record, just not as
continuous of one as is common among most free improvisers. in more plain
words, Drumm uses silences a great deal.

all of this boils down to taste, though. I was just trying to give the flip
side and let people know that I do find this record very worthwhile.

in other solo guitar news:

a flood of Loren Mazzacane records have recently been released. I think with
the upcoming Evangeline on Road Cone, that makes four in the last two months.
of the other three, the one I like the most so far is The Bridge.

for Taku Sugimoto fans, I'm listening to Fragments Of Paradise on Creativeman
Disc. I don't think I like either this or his duet record with the
aforementioned Kevin Drumm on Meme as much as I do his record on Hat Noir.

anyone know where I can get Robbie Basho's Guitar Solo on Takoma in NYC?

Jon
>>>

>>Kevin Drumm             Kevin Drumm



>What is his music like?  I noticed that he'll be playing in Chicago in

>October with Otomo Yoshihide.



     I've yet to listen a second time, but the first impression wasn't too

     great. It's solo guitar, almost always played in such a manner as to

     mask the guitar origins. My problem is that on most of the tracks, the

     sounds seem arbitrary, in subtle distinction to random. It's a hard

     distinction to qualify, but someone like Bailey strikes me as making

     _precisely_ the sound he intended at that split-second. Drumm struck

     this listener as mere doodling around. There is one cut (about 9

     minutes) that's a sustained drone and which is much more interesting

     to me than all the hen-scratching.<<<

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Al T)
Subject: Re: tony conrad's no bomb, but the bomb
Date: 22 Aug 1998 08:04:52 GMT

>> In responce to the thread that few people are willing to respond negatively
>> to "experimental music," I have two comments.  1)The myth (meaning myth,
>> not "false myth") of _the misuderstood artist who is later revealed to
>> become massively imporant player_, is HUGE (in my circle at least), this
>> makes people reticent to be dismissive of things they didn't imediately
>> grasp.  This is good, I think.

>Good, in that it allows some work to develop. Bad, in that it makes it
>possible for some wankers to put on the coat of Misunderstood Innovator
>while all that they are doing is combining cliches badly.

I'm probably way behind the times since I've been trying to work through a dead
email server and am reading digest to boot, but...

Another few relevant myths:

Tibetian: All forms emerge into time from the mouth of the dragon. The closer
you are to the source the more the distorted and the well-formed, order and
chaos, the etc and the etc, are hopelessly mixed together.

Crowley: Thoth, messanger or the Divine, is always accompanied by an Ape. While
Thoth speaks the Ape acts out a parody. Unfortunately we humans can never be
sure which is Thoth and which is the Ape.

It may, in fact, be occasionally impossible to tell the wankers from the
innovators and I suspect there are both wankers and innovators that are
themselves confused<g>.

This, of course, bugs the shit out of us.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Allan Sutherland <[e-mail]>
Subject: Zorn, coleman and Serphadic Tinge.
Date: 25 Aug 1998 07:27:23 +0900

Hello,

Can anyone help?  This summer, I saw John Zorn play with Anthony Coleman
and the Serphadic Tinge at Tonic in New York, July 19, as part of Zorn's
new music series. They were substituting or Myra Melford, who was unwell.
My qustion is, doe anyone know the names of the bassist and the drummer? I
seem to have forgotten, and would like to know.

Thanks for any assistance.

Allan.

I am writing a discography of all of the recorded works of the sublime
pianist McCoy Tyner, as leader and sideman, official and not so official.
Any information that you may think will be even of the slightest help,
please do not hesitate to contact me. Knowledge gained multiple times is
far preferred to that never learned. Any help given will be acknowledged in
the discography, or not if you prefer that.



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Silent Watcher" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Ignore, unless you live in Hawaii
Date: 24 Aug 1998 17:51:08 PDT

Sorry for this post, but I'm trying to locate someone who emailed me a
while back about an X-Legged Sally disc he thought I had. I think his
name was Dan, and that he lived in Hawaii. If that's you, please email
me, I have something that might interest you.

DB
Bill Laswell and Lori Carson Discographies at :
http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Underground/7093

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Not only can everyone make music but...
Date: 24 Aug 1998 22:03:57 -0400

J.T. de Boer wrote:

> Now you're mingling two totally different aspect of music: the
> ability to play and the ability to compose. The art in music for me
> only exists if the idea of a piece is existing in the artists' mind.
> I think it's essential to determine which aspect of music we're
> talking about.

Why do you mean by "the idea of a piece"? Where does this reside in the
case of collaborative free improvisation?

--
---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Brad Syna <[e-mail]>
Subject: new Greg Cohen release???
Date: 25 Aug 1998 00:05:13 -0400

>
>currently enjoying Dave Douglas and Greg Cohens' excellent latest discs
>
>;^ ) Bob
>
Can someone enlighten me about the new Greg Cohen!! What label, whose on
it??? Etc??
Thanks,
Brad


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Keith McMullen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: new Greg Cohen release???
Date: 24 Aug 1998 20:35:37 -0700

Has Cohen's performances in Woody Allen's documentary been discussed to
death here?

Keith



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Kevin Drumm was Re[2]: Brian's recent goodies
Date: 25 Aug 1998 00:36:52 -0400

[e-mail] wrote:

> for Taku Sugimoto fans, I'm listening to Fragments Of Paradise on Creativeman
> Disc. I don't think I like either this or his duet record with the
> aforementioned Kevin Drumm on Meme as much as I do his record on Hat Noir.

Having not yet heard the others mentioned, I second this recommendation of the hat
Noir release.  It's a thing of beauty, the interstice (an old Fripp term) of Derek
Bailey and a Zen rock garden.  One of my favorite records this year (but note that
I've bought much less than usual this year as well so take heed...).

Steve Smith
[e-mail]


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: SUGAR in their vitamins? <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Kevin Drumm was Re[2]: Brian's recent goodies
Date: 24 Aug 1998 21:48:33 -0700 (PDT)

Kevin Drumm's solo disc (released by
Thymme Jones' excellent Perdition Plastics
label) was billed as similar style and
approach to Keith Rowe (AMM) for prepared
guitar playing. Drumm apparently plays live
often with all the usual Chicago suspects,
including Illusion of Safety and
of course Jim O'Rourke and finally had
a chance to do something of his own. from
all accounts i've heard, he's an impressive
guitar player to watch live. i've listened
to the disc a handful of times and still can't
quite grasp it. because the recording is
so very quiet (shades of RLW?), i wonder
if something is lost on most stereos?
i had to really listen carefully on
headphones to hear much of anything.

hasta.

Yes.  Beautiful, wonderful nature.  Hear it sing to us: *snap*  Yes.  natURE.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "J.T. de Boer" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Not only can everyone make music but...
Date: 25 Aug 1998 10:31:13 +0200

> >The art in music for me
> > only exists if the idea of a piece is existing in the artists' mind.
> >
>
> Why do you mean by "the idea of a piece"? Where does this reside in the
> case of collaborative free improvisation?

By the idea of a piece I mean a sort of system an artist might be
using when playing or composing. I'm aware of the fact that I'm
reasoning abstractly here, but I think such a system really exists in
a true ARTists mind. This system, I think, is used also when
improvizing. An aspect which shouldn't be underestimated in the case
of improvizing is the fact that a particular artists uses partly
musical forms that he/she is familiar with, a kind of personal
statement or maybe the easiest way. An appropriate example of the
latter argument was given by Brian Olewnick when he wrote yesterday:

> My one mild complaint, actually, is the rut I find that JZ gets into
> when working in rock contexts. He seems to pull out that one
> squeal at the drop of a hat.

Of course this says nothing about his musicality, but more of the
fact that even the best musicians take it easy now and then:)


Jeroen


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "J.T. de Boer" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Percy Grainger?
Date: 25 Aug 1998 10:51:30 +0200

I recently bought 'Perks' by Jon Rose, an interactive badminton-game
based on the music and writings of Australian composer/pianist Percy
Grainger. Has anyone ever heard his music? The linernotes mentioned
he is one of those unrecognized very talented 20th-century composers.
Btw, anyone who hasn't heard Rose yet should definitely do it. His
music is absolutely fantastic. Some recommended albums IMO are
'Violin Music for Resaurants' (Derek Bailey, E. Chadbourne, Barre Phillips, Alvin
Curran, etc.)  and '/shoppinglive@victo' (Lauren Newton,
Joelle Leandre, Otomo Yoshihide & Chris Cutler).

Jeroen

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Stefan Verstraeten <[e-mail]>
Subject: who can help me find those Bill Laswell albums please
Date: 25 Aug 1998 11:07:12 +0200

Dear Zornies,

I am looking for the following albums by Bill Laswell, but I can't find
them. Does anyone know where I can order them with a credit card
(through a website or by phone/fax). Thank you very much....

(1)Various Artists : Sample Material. It's on a Belgian Label called
Sounds Good. Funny though, I live in Belgium (yes indeed, the country of
Yves Dewulf.... *hi Yves, that buckethead bootleg is on it's way* and
me) but I never heard of this belgian label
(2)Swans : This burning world (on the uni label)

So, if anyone knows where to get these album  or has any contact
addresses of these labels. Please let me know....
ps. Jeff Spirer, perhaps you can help me???
--
Stefan Verstraeten

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re[2]: Kevin Drumm was Re[2]: Brian's recent goodies
Date: 25 Aug 1998 09:07:18 -0500



>Kevin Drumm's solo disc (released by Thymme
>Jones' excellent Perdition Plastics label)
>was billed as similar style and approach to
>Keith Rowe (AMM) for prepared guitar
>playing.

I can see the comparison, in that Drumm (on
the basis of this recording, at least)
concentrates largely on very "un-guitarlike"
sounds and utilizes silence and quiet a great
deal. Now, my exposure to Rowe is still
limited (to late AMM), but the outcome of his
playing results, to me, in the carving out of
a very expansive and breathing space whereas
Drumm's work struck me as more claustrophobic
(not that the former is objectively superior
to the latter, but I tend to find it so). But
that was as of just one listen and, as you
mention below, it might benefit from
headphones or higher volume.

Jon and Steve mentioned Taku Sugimoto's disc
on hat Noir. While similar in many respects,
Sugimoto's work, IMHO, has a (for lack of a
better word) limpidity that I find much more
attractive. Amazing how narrowly one can
split a hair, eh?

Brian Olewnick






-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Caleb Deupree <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Percy Grainger?
Date: 25 Aug 1998 09:20:00 -0400

>>>>> "Jeroen" == J T de Boer <[e-mail]> writes:

    Jeroen> I recently bought 'Perks' by Jon Rose, an interactive
    Jeroen> badminton-game based on the music and writings of
    Jeroen> Australian composer/pianist Percy Grainger. Has anyone
    Jeroen> ever heard his music? The linernotes mentioned he is one
    Jeroen> of those unrecognized very talented 20th-century
    Jeroen> composers.

Grainger has two different kinds of works, piano pieces that are
largely folk song based (the piece Country Gardens is reasonably well
known, and was spoofed by an Allan Sherman comedy hit in the 1960s),
similar perhaps to some of Ralph Vaughn Williams' work.  This music is
represented at least to some extent in recordings.  But he also
supposedly made some extremely experimental music, homemade
instruments, unusual tuning systems, etc., which AFAIK is not
represented in any recording.  I believe he was gay in a time and
place which did not appreciate it, which contributed to his
obscurity.

---
Caleb T. Deupree
;; Opinions...  funny thing about opinions, they can change.

Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers.
(Pablo Picasso)


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Marc Downing <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: new Greg Cohen release???
Date: 25 Aug 1998 09:38:03 -0400

>Has Cohen's performances in Woody Allen's documentary been discussed to
>death here?
>
>Keith

Not at all.  I'd love to hear about it too.

Marc



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Marc Downing <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Not only can everyone make music but...
Date: 25 Aug 1998 10:19:50 -0400


>By the idea of a piece I mean a sort of system an artist might be
>using when playing or composing. I'm aware of the fact that I'm
>reasoning abstractly here, but I think such a system really exists in
>a true ARTists mind. This system, I think, is used also when
>improvizing. An aspect which shouldn't be underestimated in the case
>of improvizing is the fact that a particular artists uses partly
>musical forms that he/she is familiar with, a kind of personal
>statement or maybe the easiest way.

It seems to me that this "system" could be anything from a developed sense
(judgement, style, taste, etc.) of melody to something more
intellectualized (a twelve-tone "system", for example) to  skill with
collage (the ability to blend melodic ideas,"personal statements",
references to other pieces and styles, etc.).

This would mean that there're an awful lot of ARTists out there, which is a
very good thing.

Marc




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: YO! MILES: what a fantastic record!
Date: 25 Aug 1998 08:37:50 -0700


    I could not believe how good YO! MILES (Henry Kaiser and Leo Smith's
2xCD tribute to Miles Davis) is!!! They cover electric Miles (early '70s) and
the playing is fantastic (Leo Smith, in particular, is astonishing, and Rova
Sax. 4tet provides some awesome blowing).

    The first CD is so good that I played it three times (and I am sure
it is close to 74mn). The first track was good enough to make me pause what
I was doing; the second made me stop completely to listen to. And the pressure
seems to never stop. As a result I have no clue how the second CD is. But I
doubt that I will be disappointed.

    Patrice (also waiting for Bobby Previte's The Horse).

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Claudio Koremblit" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Zorn List Digest V2 #449
Date: 25 Aug 1998 11:36:56 -0300

> Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 09:20:00 -0400
> From: Caleb Deupree <[e-mail]>
> Subject: Re: Percy Grainger?
>
> >>>>> "Jeroen" == J T de Boer <[e-mail]> writes:
>
>     > I recently bought 'Perks' by Jon Rose, an interactive
>     > badminton-game based on the music and writings of
>     > Australian composer/pianist Percy Grainger. Has anyone
>     > ever heard his music? The linernotes mentioned he is one
>     > of those unrecognized very talented 20th-century
>     > composers.


    But he also
> supposedly made some extremely experimental music, homemade
> instruments, unusual tuning systems, etc., which AFAIK is not
> represented in any recording.  I believe he was gay in a time and
> place which did not appreciate it, which contributed to his
> obscurity.
>
> Caleb T. Deupree

And, like Ezra Pound, Grainger was marked for his political ideas in
the hard times of the war. He was accussed of Nazi. And for this
was left out of the "great music history", but was a great innovator, like
Pound, sure.

CK


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Keith McMullen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Greg Cohen in Wild Man Blues
Date: 25 Aug 1998 08:55:55 -0700

Not at all. I'd love to hear about it too.

Marc

There's not a lot to say. I sneaked out to the theater to see this
documentary account of a Woody Allen Band Eurpoean tour ashamed to be giving
my support to that licorice stick licking scandal incarnate, and low and
behold who was on stage plucking the bass in the band? Our own Greg Cohen,
grinning and plucking the whole movie through. Is Cohen a regular or even
irregular in Allen's NY gig?

Keith








-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Geoff S Gersh)
Subject: Straylight w/ Joe McPhee
Date: 25 Aug 1998 13:07:53 -0400

Straylight Dialogues w/ Joe McPhee and Michael West
Monday, August 31, 1998  -  9 & 11pm
Alterknit Theater, Knitting Factory, 74 Leonard St. NYC
info / tix  212.219.3006

Straylight Dialogues continues to explore improvised musical languages as
special guests Joe McPhee (reeds, brass, electronics), a jazz and new
music
innovator for over 30 years and Michael West (voice), a specialist in
extended
vocal techniques and vocal traditions of Africa, Asia, and the Americas
join
Straylight's members Jason Finkelman (berimbau, riti, percussion), Geoff
Gersh
(guitar), and Charles Cohen (Buchla music easel) for an evening of music
alone
and in collaboration.

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Spirer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: who can help me find those Bill Laswell albums please
Date: 25 Aug 1998 11:11:23 -0700

At 11:07 AM 8/25/98 +0200, Stefan Verstraeten wrote:

>(1)Various Artists : Sample Material. It's on a Belgian Label called
>Sounds Good. Funny though, I live in Belgium

I don't think that this was ever distributed.  I am fairly certain it was
just created as a tool for musicians.  I have only seen one copy, which was
Bill's, and is the one the cover was scanned from for the web site.

>(2)Swans : This burning world (on the uni label)

This shows up in used bins every now and then.  It has been out of print
for years, but Swans fans generally don't like it and sell it.  But perhaps
by now they have all been sold...


Jeff Spirer
B&W Photos: http://www.pomegranates.com/frame/spirer/
Color and B&W Photos: http://www.hyperreal.org/~jeffs/gallery.html
Axiom/Material: http://www.hyperreal.org/axiom/

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Paul Audino <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: who can help me find those Bill Laswell albums please
Date: 25 Aug 1998 14:39:32 -0500 (CDT)


> >(2)Swans : This burning world (on the uni label)
>
> This shows up in used bins every now and then.  It has been out of print
> for years, but Swans fans generally don't like it and sell it.  But perhaps
> by now they have all been sold...

Some of this material will be re-issued in the near future on Atavistic
Records (USA).  The Swans are in the process of selecting what they
believe to be their best work and re-packaging it to maximize the chance
of it staying in print.  Unfortunately, this means that several albums are
being whittled down.  The Swans themselves apparently dislike _This
Burning World_, so count on it to be diced up.

Out 2 Lunch With Lunchmeat,

Paul
[e-mail]


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "M. Forrest  Lewis" <[e-mail]>
Subject: zorn in boulder
Date: 25 Aug 1998 14:58:06 -0600

does anyone know if zorn has ever played in boulder colorado, or any dates
coming up? i live in a really socially retarded area where the extent of
our concert line-up's consist of loverboy or april wine, and that's if
we're lucky ;(
boulder would be the closest place i can think of that might even come
close to having anything remotely experimental...

-louie

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Percy Grainger?
Date: 25 Aug 1998 19:12:22 -0400

Caleb Deupree wrote:

>     Jeroen> I recently bought 'Perks' by Jon Rose, an interactive
>     Jeroen> badminton-game based on the music and writings of
>     Jeroen> Australian composer/pianist Percy Grainger. Has anyone
>     Jeroen> ever heard his music? The linernotes mentioned he is one
>     Jeroen> of those unrecognized very talented 20th-century
>     Jeroen> composers.
>
> Grainger has two different kinds of works, piano pieces that are
> largely folk song based (the piece Country Gardens is reasonably well
> known, and was spoofed by an Allan Sherman comedy hit in the 1960s),
> similar perhaps to some of Ralph Vaughn Williams' work.  This music is
> represented at least to some extent in recordings.

A huge extent, really... Chandos is issuing a series of all of his music.
I don't know if that will eventually include the more experimental things
you mention below (excellent synopsis, by the way), but it has already
presented most of the orchestral, choral and solo piano music as well as
some of the songs.  Those who are curious should try to find "The
Warriors," a really interesting tone poem with some downright Ivesian
pantonal stuff in it.

> supposedly made some extremely experimental music, homemade
> instruments, unusual tuning systems, etc., which AFAIK is not
> represented in any recording.  I believe he was gay in a time and
> place which did not appreciate it, which contributed to his
> obscurity.

His politics have been mentioned elsewhere in this thread (he was a
virulent racist), but I would add that he was not only gay but an S&M
fetishist and a self-flagellant as well.  Yet he was married in a huge
public ceremony at the Hollywood Bowl, and reportedly wanted to have
children expressly so he could beat them (happily, he had none).

But he wrote some delightful and beguiling music... the popular song
"Danny Boy" is based on the same melody as his "Irish Tune from County
Derry."  And most folks who came up through the American school band
program probably played "Lincolnshire Posy" at some point during junior
high school.

The Percy Grainger Society maintains a good website that talks about the
new music experiments, if not the lifestyle, at
http://www.tisl.co.uk/grainger/PAG.htm

In addition, there is a fine article that talks about all of his music,
his politics and his S&M leanings (inspired by beatings from his mother)
at
http://www.futurenet.com/classicalnet/composers/features/grainger/grainger.html

"People like me ought to be burned at the stake." - Percy Grainger,
1882-1961

Steve Smith
[e-mail]


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: clockwise <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: who can help me find those Bill Laswell albums please
Date: 25 Aug 1998 19:28:27 -0500

>>(1)Various Artists : Sample Material. It's on a Belgian Label called
>>Sounds Good. Funny though, I live in Belgium
>
>I don't think that this was ever distributed.  I am fairly certain it was
>just created as a tool for musicians.  I have only seen one copy, which was
>Bill's, and is the one the cover was scanned from for the web site.


I paid $100 dollars for that piece of shit, and it is total garbage, almost
none of the samples were isolated from the original tracks, so in essence I
spent all that money for 3 second snippits of music I already owned. I
always assumed all Laswell had to do with it was releasing the copyright. I
can't imagine he would think that cd would be a useful tool for anyone
looking for sounds.

peace

clockwise


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Stefan Verstraeten <[e-mail]>
Subject: Swans / Bill Laswell album
Date: 26 Aug 1998 09:12:49 +0200

Dear Zornies,

Thank you everybody for the help on finding the sample material of the
axiom label (especially Rich Williams for giving me an online store,
cheers mate, I owe you one).
As far from the other emails I got, This Burning World by the Swans
seems (a) out of print and (b) is never going to be reissued.
So, does anyone on the zornlist has a copy (or knows someone) that wants
to trade or sell this album or is willing to make a copy of it?

Thank you very much,
--
Stefan Verstraeten

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Benjamin Pequet)
Subject: piano pieces
Date: 26 Aug 1998 06:42:32 -0600

I suppose the question of where to find written music (if it is to be found
at all) has been asked regularly on the zorn-list and I hesitate about
asking the question now. But I didn't see anything about it in the faqs. And
a research on the internet gave nothing either.
I am asking this for a friend who needs specifically Anthony Colemans
scores, where to start looking for that ? Whom to ask, are these musics
published, distributed ? The question goes also for pieces written by others
and played by Coleman.

Last week for instance I saw Klucevsek scores for sale at one of his concerts.
Should we try to reach Coleman through... Tzadik or something ?
Thank you for any answer.  Benjamin


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: YO! MILES: what a fantastic record!
Date: 26 Aug 1998 08:14:17 -0700


On Tue, 25 Aug 1998 22:02:28 -0500  Jeff Schwartz wrote:
>
> Me, I'm unsure what to make of Yo Miles after one
> listening. Yes, everyone plays amazingly, but it's so
> close to the originals-to the point that Henry recreates
> some of the trademark tones of Pete Cosey and John
> McLaughlin and Smith uses a wah-wah for the first time in
> his career. I fear that these cats are just a bit too
> faithful or literal in their tribute, so that the question
> "why should I play Yo Miles when I can play Panagea?"
> comes up. I hope this album is as controversial as
> Panthalassa.

It is true that the music is very faithful. But is it a problem? I mean,
every month there is a new orchestra which puts out a new interpretation of the
5th by Beethoven and nobody would even dare to complain about it. So, in the case
of Miles, who has accumulated so much music in so many different styles, should
we discard any interpretation of his music because we still have Miles' records
with us? What I like with this record is that it shows that Miles' electric
period is also a repertoire (a lost concept in modern jazz), something that you
can cover now and it still sounds fresh. The interpretation could have been trite,
boring, uninspired (common with tributes); it is not.

Also, I am sure that there is more variety in their interpretation of Miles'
music than in what most classical ensemble brings when they put out one more
version of a famous piece :-). Sorry, but cases like Glenn Gould are the
exception, not the rule.

This record makes me feel happy because it is enjoyable music played by people
(I guess) who had great pleasure to do it, and it sounds so good.

But, yes, this is not a record for somebody who's looking for the next
experimentation. It is record which proves that what used to be experimentation
in the early '70 (and late '60), is not anymore. This is a music that new
musicians can borrow and play. It is successful experimentation: it works 30
years after.

    Patrice (not a masochist for this time).
.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Corey Marc Fogel <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: piano pieces
Date: 26 Aug 1998 10:12:01 -0700 (MST)



On Wed, 26 Aug 1998, Benjamin Pequet wrote:

> Last week for instance I saw Klucevsek scores for sale at one of his concerts.
> Should we try to reach Coleman through... Tzadik or something ?
> Thank you for any answer.  Benjamin

transcriptions!!!

thats the best way.




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Recent Goodies
Date: 26 Aug 1998 14:20:15 -0300

New cds, old cds, always music.

The Lounge Lizards  Queen of all Ears  Strange And Beautiful Music

Very beautiful music, and not strange at all. A friend of mine said this
was the best album of the ... next year!.
If you don't have this one, go get it. Highly recommended.

Moguilevsky y Los Acusticos  El Viaje  Epsa

An Argentine five members group with a great sound.
Moguilevsky plays woodwinds and the rest of the band includes
violin/piano-guitar/electric and acoustc basses/drums and percussion.
Their first cd; improvisations and melodies with Jewish elements, local
music (they states in the booklet "with litoraleno or criollo air")
rather close to "folklore" and kind of abstract tango.
Good. Worth hearing.

Astor Piazzolla  Concierto de Nacar  Editions Milan Music

Amazing. Outstanding. All favourable adjectives you'd like to add is
permitted.
Live concert on June 1983, released 1997. This is the late Maestro with
his Conjunto 9 (Ensemble 9) formed with musicians who were not those of
the original 1971-72 group; also there's a Filarmonic Orchestra in the
second part of the cd (Concerto for Bandoneon) that accomplishes a sound
that is unusual for Piazzolla, really a symphonic explosion.
The "Buenos Aires Zero Hour" version is unbelievable.
Just a delicious stroke in my ears and soul.

Not quite "recent", but new to my collection.

Peep;  The Joy of Being  KFW

Probably known to those who assist at the Knit, this group has been an
authentic surprise to me. I'm really amazed with this cd; lots of
energy, wide-ranging influenced music that include free jazz, humour,
European Circus and gipsy-like cadences. IMHO, an authentic masterpiece.

Peep; are: Michael Attias, alto and baritone; Robert Cimino, percussion;
Fred Longberg-holm, cello; Edward Ratliff, trumpet, trombone, euphonium,
accordion.
Not to be missed.
BTW, is there any other Peep;'s cd in the stores?

Sorry for being so longish.

-Hugo

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Herb Levy <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Brian's recent goodies
Date: 26 Aug 1998 10:27:53 -0800

Sorry for the digest delay here:

Brian Olewnick wrote

>>Fractuur
>> Excellent!  More subtle than Alterstill, moving into a unique sound
>> world.  The samples are no longer as recognizable, and he blends in
>> live instruments as well.
>
>Again, after one listen, I was pretty impressed. As you mentioned, the
>samples are virtually unrecognizable (I think I picked out some
>Penderecki and Xenakis, but that was about it). In that sense, he seems
>much closer to Carl Stone than Oswald and others, though the output is,
>musically, much different.

I'm interested in Brian's characterization of Stone, Wall & Oswald here.
In my mind, Wall is the outsider of the three, rather than Oswald.

If by the above you mean that Stone & Wall are similar in that their main
interest is to create new compositions out of sounds from others as opposed
to presenting a new look at an older composition by manipulating its
components (I realize this characterization of "Oswald and others" is
exaggerated & reductive) then I think I understand your point.

But one of the things that makes the output of the two so different is that
Stone works very idiomatically within the traditions of elecronic music,
while Wall seems almost to be making a kind of acoustic instrumental music
using sampling technology to create pieces that could be played by live
musicians, if the right musicians came together.

For the most part Wall's work could be transcribed in music notation and
handed out to musicians who had wareness of contemporary performance
practice.  He rarely, if ever, uses the sampler or other processing devices
to significantly alter the timbre of an instrumental sound.

Again this is something of an exaggeration, but this is one of the things
that makes Wall's music relatively unusual when heard in the context of
most other people who specialize in sampling technology, but significantly
less unusual in the context of the composers who get name checked as being
sampled by him.


Herb Levy
[e-mail]



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Bob Kowalski <[e-mail]>
Subject: Cohen on film and on disc
Date: 26 Aug 1998 15:18:42 -0400

Greg Cohen's new album (on DIW) is called "Way Out" and I highly
recommend it to all. A partial tribute to Ellington and a whole record full of
wonderful tunes -- definately worth the $20 asking price.  Cohen's
performance in "Wild Man Blues" is cool -- he even ranks a joke or two
from the Woodman.  Non Woody Allen fans should stick to the new
album however.
Bob

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tom Benton <[e-mail]>
Subject: David Krakauer in Dallas
Date: 26 Aug 1998 14:48:12 -0500 (CDT)

Well, it's sort of nice to see we're finally down the last few debris of
this intellectual pissing contest that the whole "Can non-musicians make
music" thread boiled into...which seems like an appropriate enough time
for me to make one of my extremely infrequent interjections of Zorn-y
content...

This past weekend I took a little day trip from the home base in Austin
to hear clarinetist David Krakauer's "Klezmer Madness" band (of Tzadik
fame) at the Dallas Jewish Arts Festival.  It's funny, on the drive up I
started to think about my last klezmer road trip: scooting down to Houston
a couple of months ago to hear the Klezmatics who were good but not nearly
as great as I expected them to be and it's sort of undecided whether or
not the trip was entirely worth it.  but oh well.  Too bad for the
Klezmatics.

Krakauer and crew were totally unreal.  The current incarnation of the
band is different from the one of the 'Klezmer Madness' disc, this group
includes Ted Reichman on accordion, Kevin Norton on drums, and Adam Rogers
on guitar.  I don't know anything about Rogers at all, but he pretty much
stole the show for me.  I probably wouldn't have felt anything was missing
had this group shown up as a guitar-less trio, but Rogers was just adding
all of these magical little touches that had me anticipating what was
going to happen every time he started to play.  He was featured
prominently on a piece called 'Klezdrix', which was absolute craziness I
tell you...

And it's funny that David Krakauer's name didn't pop into my head during
the clarinet player thread some weeks ago...I haven't heard him play too
much in non-klez contexts but I suspect he sounds great wherever..I've
never heard anyone with mastery of so many little nuances of the horn, all
sorts of strange little sounds coming from the nooks and crannies of his
instrument.

Kevin Norton told me that Krakauer's 2nd album for Tzadik (featuring this
band plus Oren Bloedow on bass) should be out hopefully next month so be
looking for it.  It's going to include a suite of compositions that
constitute a klezmer tribute to Sidney Bichet which they played various
bits of Sunday.

So that's a random and hopefully semi-informative account of some
happenings here in Texas; and while I'm going on about it, let me offer a
tiny little commercial plug for an Austin event that hopefully might be of
interest to local Zorn-listers:

The Golden Arm Trio, the Blue Noise Band, and the Alien Time Ensemble
appearing Sunday Sept 6 in what we're calling either:

a) An Austin Improvisational Showcase
b) Austin's Jazz Underground

Anyways, it should be a fun and inexpensive time, I certainly invite
interested parties to contact me for more details.

later all,
Tom

(am I the only person who thinks Bloodcount could make a really great
'Fall into the Gap' commercial?)


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: David Krakauer in Dallas
Date: 26 Aug 1998 13:12:27 -0700


On Wed, 26 Aug 1998 14:48:12 -0500 (CDT)  Tom Benton wrote:
>
> And it's funny that David Krakauer's name didn't pop into my head during
> the clarinet player thread some weeks ago...I haven't heard him play too
> much in non-klez contexts but I suspect he sounds great wherever..I've
> never heard anyone with mastery of so many little nuances of the horn, all
> sorts of strange little sounds coming from the nooks and crannies of his
> instrument.

There is a haunting duo (piano + clarinet) on the TANGO LESSON soundtrack.
The piece is so good that Sally Potter uses it (at least) three times in
the movie (when the trend is to have a CD of music which is never used :-).

And yes, control is really what this piece is all about. Slow progression
with bended notes. Like being toasted on a high-wire. You (the listener)
fear that he is gonna fall, but he does not. Awesome...

I am not 100% sure, but I think it is David Krakauer.

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re[2]: Brian's recent goodies
Date: 26 Aug 1998 16:09:40 -0500



     Herb wrote:

>I'm interested in Brian's characterization of Stone, Wall & Oswald here.
>In my mind, Wall is the outsider of the three, rather than Oswald.

>If by the above you mean that Stone & Wall are similar in that their main
>interest is to create new compositions out of sounds from others as opposed
>to presenting a new look at an older composition by manipulating its
>components (I realize this characterization of "Oswald and others" is
>exaggerated & reductive) then I think I understand your point.

     That's more or less what I meant. It seemed relatively clear (this was
     after just one listen to the Wall--I still haven't gotten back around
     to it) that he was less concerned with the "detritus" value or
     nostalgic associations one might have with the sampled material (as
     in, say, 'Plexure') then with constructing something entirely new that
     couldn't have been arrived at any other way (or could it? re: your
     remark below). I think I mentioned (if not, I will now) that the
     ultimate outputs are quite different; nothing in Wall's album sounds
     remotely like 'Ching Kee'.

>But one of the things that makes the output of the two so different is that
>Stone works very idiomatically within the traditions of elecronic music,
>while Wall seems almost to be making a kind of acoustic instrumental music
>using sampling technology to create pieces that could be played by live
>musicians, if the right musicians came together.

>For the most part Wall's work could be transcribed in music notation and
>handed out to musicians who had wareness of contemporary performance
>practice.  He rarely, if ever, uses the sampler or other processing devices
>to significantly alter the timbre of an instrumental sound.

        Yep, you're right there. I still find that, in my mind, I tend to put
Oswald in one "camp" and Stone and Wall in another, but that latter camp
certainly has its share of differences. But maybe this is all over-hair
splitting again, anyway. All of these folk are well worth listening to and
enjoying and I suppose that's good enough!

By the way (free plug here, Herb) any readers who've cared to read this far and
haven't yet checked out Herb's show, should immediately do so at:

        www.antennaradio.com

Best Real Audio on the Net.

Brian Olewnick





-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dan Hewins <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Cohen on film and on disc
Date: 26 Aug 1998 15:51:42 -0500


At 3:18 PM -0400 8/26/98, Bob Kowalski wrote:
>Greg Cohen's new album (on DIW) is called "Way Out" and I highly
                                           ^^^^^^^^^
                                           "Way Low"



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Best Place to buy out of print Laswell/Zorn
Date: 26 Aug 1998 20:17:22 EDT

try Downtown Music Gallery, [e-mail].. Tell mike DJSteve sent ya.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (ashley capps)
Subject: Re: Cohen on film and on disc
Date: 26 Aug 1998 21:39:20 -0400

>At 3:18 PM -0400 8/26/98, Bob Kowalski wrote:
>>Greg Cohen's new album (on DIW) is called "Way Out" and I highly
>                                           ^^^^^^^^^
>                                           "Way Low"

Actually, this one has been out for a couple of years, although DIW's new
distribution deal with Koch has certainly made it more readily available.
There is a much more recent one, however, called "Moment to Moment" with
Teddy Edwards on tenor sax, Gerry Wiggins on piano, and Donald Bailey on
drums. This one has something of a late 1950s "west coast jazz" sound (not
surprising considering the line-up), not unlike Charlie Haden's Quartet
West. I enjoy both records immensely, but those on this list might want to
be aware that they reflect Cohen's love of more traditional and mainstream
jazz, more than anything "avant."

Ashley



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Francisco Fonz-GarcΘs" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Recent Goodies
Date: 27 Aug 1998 13:25:51 +0200



[e-mail] wrote:

> New cds, old cds, always music.
>
> The Lounge Lizards  Queen of all Ears  Strange And Beautiful Music
>
> Very beautiful music, and not strange at all. A friend of mine said this
> was the best album of the ... next year!.
> If you don't have this one...

I don┤t

> , go get it. Highly recommended

Where could I get full references about this album?

Thanks a lot

 Paco Fonz (still enjoying "Live in Berlin")





-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Recent Goodies
Date: 27 Aug 1998 08:33:16 -0700


On Thu, 27 Aug 1998 13:25:51 +0200  "Francisco Fonz-GarcΘs" wrote:
>
> Where could I get full references about this album?


*** - QUEEN OF ALL EARS: The Lounge Lizards

    1/ The First And Royal Queen                (Lurie)                  3:59
    2/ The Birds Near Her House                 (Lurie)                 11:40
    3/ Scary Children                           (Lurie)                  4:07
    4/ She Drove Me Mad                         (Lurie)                  4:21
    5/ Queen Of All Ears                        (Lurie)                  5:25
    6/ Monsters Over Bangkok                    (Lurie)                 10:13
    7/ Three Crowns Of Wood                     (Lurie)                  4:01
    8/ John Zorn's S&M Circus                   (Lurie)                  6:13
    9/ Yak                                      (Lurie)                  5:41
    10/ Queen Reprise                           (Lurie)                  3:46

    Recorded at Powerstation
    Produced by John Lurie and Pat Dillett

  John Lurie: alto, soprano, vocals; Michael Blake: tenor, bass clarinet;
  Steven Bernstein: trumpet; David Tronzo: slide guitar; Evan Lurie: piano,
  organ; Jane Scarpantoni: cello; Erik Sanko: bass; Ben Perowsky: percussion;
  Calvin Weston: drums.

    1996 - Warner Brothers Records (Germany), 9362-46147-2 (CD)
    1998 - Strange & Beautiful Music (USA), SB 0015 (CD)

  Note: the WB pressing was planned for release on May 28, 1996 on Luaka Bop
  but it never happened; some promo copies (issued by Warner Brothers in
  Germany) are flying around...


    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: DIW/Avant
Date: 27 Aug 1998 15:40:23 -0300

Is there any place where to check out old and new DIW and Avant
releases?

Thanks for the light,

Hugo

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dan Hewins <[e-mail]>
Subject: JMT Discs
Date: 27 Aug 1998 17:02:09 -0500

Can anyone post a list of all the JMT Discs that were available?  I am
curious to know what to keep an eye out for.

Thanks,
Dan



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Spring Jazz Festival
Date: 27 Aug 1998 19:31:44 EDT

My name is Dave Lundin - I am trying to put together an April 17, 1999, jazz
festival in Detroit, Michigan featuring the kind of "cutting edge" jazz heard
at the Tonic Club in New York.  My issue is that I have some names of good
artists (Ravi Coltrane, Myra Melford, Joe Lovano, etc.) but could use more
names and mostly need to know how to get hold of these artists either in
person or through their agents. Does anyone have any ideas?  Thanks!!

Dave Lundin

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Lang Thompson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Slusser & Halloween H2O
Date: 27 Aug 1998 22:00:30 -0400

I noticed that one of the music editors on "Halloween H2O" is David
Slusser.  Is this the same guy that has an album out on Tzadik?  (& I don't
know how much creative input an editor has but the music and sound mix are
easily the most interesting things in the film.)

LT
Lang Thompson
http://www.tcf.ua.edu/wlt4

New at the Funhouse website:  Alternate 100 American
Films, Anthology of American Folk Music, Godzilla Bites!

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Caleb T. Deupree" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Slusser & Halloween H2O
Date: 27 Aug 1998 22:41:46 -0400

At 10:00 PM 8/27/98 -0400, Lang Thompson wrote:
>I noticed that one of the music editors on "Halloween H2O" is David
>Slusser.  Is this the same guy that has an album out on Tzadik?  (& I don't
>know how much creative input an editor has but the music and sound mix are
>easily the most interesting things in the film.)

While I am not familiar with this movie, Slusser has done a great deal of
work in sound effects and film.  Some of his radio work is included (with
the NPR logo left in) on the Tzadik album.  A search on his name at imdb
comes up with seven other movies in which he was part of the sound design
crew or musician, including Terminator 2.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Silent Watcher" <[e-mail]>
Subject: X-Legged Sally's "Slow-Up"
Date: 27 Aug 1998 20:28:48 PDT

Hello all,

I'm under the impression that this album is not that easy to find
anymore.  If that's the case, I seem to be able to get some copies from
our distributor at work (actually I have one promised to someone, and
one not) and have some on order. I'd be happy to get them for people
(first come first serve) at cost + $1.50 postage. Let me know if anyone
is interested, or if I'm mistaken as to how hard it is to find.

Peace,
Dave
Lori Carson and Bill Laswell Discographies at :
http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Underground/7093

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: off subject possible rec label?
Date: 28 Aug 1998 00:30:48 EDT

hello i was wondering if anyone has any info on mick harris's label possible?
i know he release's some vinyl... i have scorn leave it out, and quoit
cd...i'm looking for simm or pcm, or anyother artist... any info would be
great!

thanks,
chad

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: BJOERN <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Slusser & Halloween H2O
Date: 28 Aug 1998 13:21:27 +0200 (MEST)

yes he is...thats his "main" job... he also did editing for terminator 2
and indiana jones 3 plus several other stuff..
i think he was also involved in doing the new star wars edition

BJOERN
www.cityinfonetz.de/uni/homepage/bjoern.eichstaedt

On Thu, 27 Aug 1998, Lang Thompson wrote:

> I noticed that one of the music editors on "Halloween H2O" is David
> Slusser.  Is this the same guy that has an album out on Tzadik?  (& I don't
> know how much creative input an editor has but the music and sound mix are
> easily the most interesting things in the film.)
>
> LT
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Lang Thompson
> http://www.tcf.ua.edu/wlt4
>
> New at the Funhouse website:  Alternate 100 American
> Films, Anthology of American Folk Music, Godzilla Bites!
>
> -
>


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Percy Grainger?
Date: 28 Aug 1998 15:24:16 +0200


Steve Smith <[e-mail]> wrote:
> Subject: Re: Percy Grainger?
>
> Those who are curious should try to find "The Warriors," a really
> interesting tone poem with some downright Ivesian pantonal stuff in it.

I'd go along with Steve's recommendation.  The Warriors should also appeal
to those who like Stravinsky.  An excellent recording of it can be found on:

Gustav Holst - The Planets/Percy Grainger - The Warriors
Cond.: John Eliot Gardiner; Orch.: Philharmonia
Deutsche Grammophon 445 860-2

This version has a second conductor for the off-stage brass ensemble, though
the CD booklet indicates that 3 conductors are needed -- though give no details
as to why (or why this version only has 2!!)!

The Warriors was Grainger's longest composition, apparently.  The version on
the above mentioned disc runs approximately 18.5 minutes.

Dem

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From: Herb Levy <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re[2]: Brian's recent goodies
Date: 28 Aug 1998 09:50:17 -0800

Probably someone who's not on digest (& who didn't screw up their return
address, sorry Mike) has already noted that Wall talks about several
instances of digital manipulation in his Resonance interview, which I just
read this morning on the way to work, so my comments along the lines quoted
are somewhat inaccurate.

&, yeah, this is mostly quibbling about how to characterize 3 consistently
interesting composers.

& thanks Brian for plugging Antenna Radio.


I wrote & Brian Olewnick responded:

>>For the most part Wall's work could be transcribed in music notation and
>>handed out to musicians who had wareness of contemporary performance
>>practice.  He rarely, if ever, uses the sampler or other processing devices
>>to significantly alter the timbre of an instrumental sound.
>
>        Yep, you're right there. I still find that, in my mind, I tend to put
>Oswald in one "camp" and Stone and Wall in another, but that latter camp
>certainly has its share of differences. But maybe this is all over-hair
>splitting again, anyway. All of these folk are well worth listening to and
>enjoying and I suppose that's good enough!



Herb Levy
[e-mail]



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From: Michael Howes <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: off subject possible rec label?
Date: 28 Aug 1998 12:09:55 -0700

At 12:30 AM 8/28/98 -0400, [e-mail] wrote:
>hello i was wondering if anyone has any info on mick harris's label possible?
>i know he release's some vinyl... i have scorn leave it out, and quoit
>cd...i'm looking for simm or pcm, or anyother artist... any info would be
>great!

 I don't have a lot of info but I do know (and own) a double CD collection
called "Sonics Everywhere" which is a collection of all the 12" that
Possible put out.
 The comp was actually released by Invisible. It has tracks from PCM,
Scorn, SIMM, Jupiter Crew, Ambush, Quoit, and Interceptor.
 The address for Possible
Possible Records
Unit 28
Birmingham Business Centre
31 Mount Street
Nechells, Birmingham B7 SRD UK

mike
[e-mail]



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From: Dan Kuehn <[e-mail]>
Subject: Yo Henry!  Yo Wadada!
Date: 28 Aug 1998 09:48:53 +0000

Yo Patrice!  Bought 4 copies of the 2-CD set from the label Shanachie (on the
phone they said it like "shana-key"), list was $12.99 but they give one free
when you buy three  -  anyways it came out to less than 11.50 each after
shipping....  And they even shipped a week before release date - soon as they
had'em... so cool

Shanachie:   http://www.shanachie.com
Henry Kaiser's Page:  http://php.indiana.edu/~mpiper/HKMain.html

what's more, Henry hisself responded to a note from me posted on his forum
page - wow - he sez:

||||||||||||||||||

Dear Smokey-san,

         We forced Shanachie to price it low so people could afford it. We
make no money from something like this anyone. (record companies rarely pay
you beyond your original advance - though Shanachie is the most honest and
best that I have worked with) But we wanted you all to be able to get as much
music for as few bucks as possible.

         I have an advance of the 4 CD BITCHES BREW box - October release on
SONY. It's pretty good. They rem-mixed it all from the origianl session (Aug
'69) and then there is more material from sessions that followed thru Feb 6,
1970. about 1/3 of the material is unreleased. It's nice - but nothing earth
shattering. Any electric Miles fan will dig it.

         There are other tributes to this period before the Splatter
recording. A Japanese trumpet player named HINO even made a CD with Miles'
band at the time in '74! Dave Liebman did some stuff a few years back too. I
don't think anyoine has seriously decoded and attacked the compositions form
that period as we have done.

         My old version of ROCK ON on HOPE YOU LIKE OUR NEW DIRECTION was also
a tribute to this period of Miles and we recorded that back in 1990. On the
SIAMESE STEPBROTHERS we did the AGHARTA PRELUDE also.

         HK
|||||||||||||||||||||

There are more notes from HK on his forum page - go and look!

Lemme say the four copies are all in heavy rotation here, now if I could just
find that Terumasa Hino CD....

SmokeyDan

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "brazen stupidity" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: off subject possible rec label?
Date: 28 Aug 1998 14:55:32 -0400




>hello i was wondering if anyone has any info on mick harris's label
possible?
>i know he release's some vinyl... i have scorn leave it out, and quoit
>cd...i'm looking for simm or pcm, or anyother artist... any info would be


Invisible records released a double cd of all (I think) of the Possible
12"s.


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From: Perfect Sound Forever <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Slusser & Halloween H2O
Date: 28 Aug 1998 16:33:06 -0400

More than likely, this is the same person who put out the CD out on Tzadik.  He's a
long and fruitful track record with working in films, including credits with
Coppola, Lynch and Lucas.  Here's what I pulled off of IMDB (great site) though I
know it's not complete (doesn't include the Halloween credit for one thing).

1.Terminator 2: Judgment Day (1991) (assistant sound designer)
         ... aka T2 (1991) (USA: promotional abbreviation)
         ... aka T2 - Terminator 2: Judgment Day (1991)
       2.Five Heartbeats, The (1991) (music editor)
       3.Cold Dog Soup (1990) (music editor)
       4.Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade (1989) (foley recordist)
       5.Always (1989) (foley recordist)
       6.Kamillions (1989) (musician)
       7.Cocoon: The Return (1988) (assistant music editor)

As it so happens, we're going to post an interview with Slusser in a few days- we'll
have the details for the Zorn list when it's online (sorry for the crass promo).

Jason
--
Perfect Sound Forever
online music magazine
[e-mail]
http://www.furious.com/perfect



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From: "Benito Vergara" <[e-mail]>
Subject: zorn in san francisco
Date: 28 Aug 1998 15:27:58 -0700

Just in case you SF Bay Area folks were interested -- picked up the
newspaper today and saw Zorn was coming.

Two dates: Sept. 15-16 at Slim's in SF. (Tickets are on sale now.)

Later,
Ben

np: ornette coleman, "first take"

http://www.bigfoot.com/~bvergara/
ICQ# 12832406


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Julian" <[e-mail]>
Subject: tzadik site
Date: 29 Aug 1998 11:27:15 +1000

Just thought I'd let you all know that the site has been (very scantily)
updated. Included in October releases now are David Krakauer, Sephardic
Tinge and a trio featuring Fred Frith, Bill Laswell and Charles Hayward. No
new sound clips, but hey, Tzadik albums speak for themselves don't they?


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Silent Watcher" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: off subject possible rec label?
Date: 28 Aug 1998 20:53:43 PDT


>>hello i was wondering if anyone has any info on mick harris's label
>>possible? i know he release's some vinyl... i have scorn leave it
>>out, and quoit cd...i'm looking for simm or pcm, or anyother
>>artist... any info would be

>Invisible records released a double cd of all (I think) of the
>Possible 12"s.

From what I know, Possible Recs. as an autonomous label was fairly
short-lived, having only released 6 or so 12", and two CDs (SIMM and
Quoit - both amazing, IMHO) before Mick Harris had to stop because of
the financial strain.  He had worked out a deal with Invisible Records
at some point, and they issued a double CD (Sonics Everywhere) which
contained all the tracks off the 12". They were also supposed to be
re-issuing the SIMM album at some point, along with a new SIMM album and
some other CDs.  From what I gather from the Dub Terrorist site, Mick
Harris isn't happy about much right now, and that might still include
Invisible Records, so who knows what'll happen.

Dave
Bill Laswell and Lori Carson Discographies at :
http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Underground/7093

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Mick Harris
Date: 29 Aug 1998 16:38:56 EDT

In a message dated 98-08-29 00:20:15 EDT, you write:

<< He had worked out a deal with Invisible Records
 at some point, and they issued a double CD (Sonics Everywhere) which
 contained all the tracks off the 12".  >>

If someone could clarify this I'd appreciate it - are these all Mick Harris
projects, or a bunch of different people? If they're all his, I think I'd like
to track this down!!!

Thanks.

Dale.

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From: "Wilson, King of Prussia" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Zorn's Touring Habits/Chicago
Date: 29 Aug 1998 17:58:05 -0600

Question to you people in the know......

  Why is it that Zorn seems to be so phobic about playing in Chicago?  I
see new dates pop up on the list all the time about shows in L.A, San Fran,
and New York, but he hasn't played here in about 4 years. I think his last
shows were a couple of nights with Masada.
  I am hard pressed to think of any of my favorite musicians (and I have
many, in much different genres) of play consistanty here in the states, and
skip Chicago.  In fact, most make a point to play here before they announce
dates anywhere else (Kraftwerk and Bauhaus being the most recent examples)
  This is made all the more perplexing by the recent press attention the
Improv/Noise scene here has been getting.  Maybe this is why he wont
come.......

     and get that guy Laswell over here, too.....


















                                read icculus



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:    William York <[e-mail]>
Subject: Need Sludgy Metal Recommendations
Date: 30 Aug 1998 00:08:51 -0400 (EDT)

Lately I have been listening a lot to Blind Idiot God _Cyclotron, Elliot
Sharp _Tocsin_, and something from Zeni Geva that someone taped for me.
Anyway the connection between these 3 is sort of on the surface at best, I
know, but if anyone could recommend some stuff in this vein I'd appreciate
it.  Vocal or instrumental.

WY



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From: [e-mail] (Sibree/Wilkes)
Subject: LP Auction
Date: 30 Aug 1998 17:08:28 +0800

A reminder that my latest list of mostly free jazz/avant garde lps is
available on rec.music.marketplace.vinyl, or email me for details.

Billy



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Michael Howes <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Mick Harris
Date: 30 Aug 1998 13:47:54 -0700

><< He had worked out a deal with Invisible Records
> at some point, and they issued a double CD (Sonics Everywhere) which
> contained all the tracks off the 12".  >>
>
>If someone could clarify this I'd appreciate it - are these all Mick Harris
>projects, or a bunch of different people? If they're all his, I think I'd
like
>to track this down!!!

 The liner notes are thin but it implies that these "bands" are the
following artists.

PCM = PCM
Scorn = Mick Harris (duh!)
SIMM = SIMM
Jupiter Crew = James Plotkin
Ambush = Glen Eswall
Quoit = Mick Harris
Interceptor = Eraldo Bernocchi

mike
[e-mail]



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Greg Mills <[e-mail]>
Subject: Afro-cuban recos
Date: 31 Aug 1998 15:46:07 -0700

        I'll be visiting Miami next month and I am hoping to
score some excellent CDs. Where's a good place to start with afro-cuban
music, a la Perez Prado?

        Thanks

        G

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Greg Mills <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: zorn in boulder
Date: 31 Aug 1998 15:51:27 -0700

Zorn played in Boulder a couple of times while I was living in a
socially retarded area in Colorado (Colorado Springs). I unfortunately
missed both times. I think the place he plays is the called the Rose
Theater, but I may be mistaken.

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: for John Oswald complete list
Date: 31 Aug 1998 15:55:25 -0700


    John Oswald has a killer remix (with frantic drumming) on the
following record (remixes of Pizzicato Five):


*** - REMIX ALBUM: HAPPY END OF YOU: Pizzicato Five

    1/ Love's Theme (Automator mix)                                      4:11
    2/ Trailer Music (808 State remix)                                   5:11
    3/ The Earth Goes Around (Daddy-O half mix)                          3:43
    4/ Porno 3003 (DJ Dara remix)                                        5:52
    5/ Porno 3003 (Gusgus mix)                                           6:35
    6/ My Baby Portable Player Sound (High Llamas remix)                 6:10
    7/ Happy Ending (Oval mix)                                           5:19
    8/ It's A Beautiful Day (John Oswald mix)                            4:40
    9/ Love's There (Saint Etienne mix)                                  4:49
    10/ Trailer Music (Momus mix)                                        3:05
    11/ Collision And Improvisation (The Shooter remix)                  6:39
    12/ Contact (Dimitri From Paris mix)                                 7:23

    1998 - Matador (USA), ole 282-2 (CD)


A fairly enjoyable record.

    Patrice.

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From: Perfect Sound Forever <[e-mail]>
Subject: Kevin Drumm, David Slusser, Iancu Dumitrescu interviews
Date: 31 Aug 1998 21:09:58 -0400

Greetings,

In the September edition of Perfect Sound Forever online music magazine
<http://www.furious.com/perfect>, you'll find (among other things):

KEVIN DRUMM INTERVIEW
New levels of guitaristics

http://www.furious.com/perfect/kevindrumm.html

IANCU DUMITRESCU INTERVIEW
Tim Hodgkinson interviews this fascinating Romanian composer
(reprint from Resonance magazine)

http://www.furious.com/perfect/iancu.html

DAVID SLUSSER INTERVIEW
First Coppola, Lynch and Lucas and now the world

http://www.furious.com/perfect/slusser.html

r Dealer?  Buying your equipment from someone you can trust

We're always looking for good material so let us know if you have any
writing, ideas for upcoming issues.

See you online,
Jason

Perfect Sound Forever
online music magazine
[e-mail]
http://www.furious.com/perfect

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