ftp.xmission.com/2014.06.ftp.xmission.com.tar/ftp.xmission.com/pub/lists/zorn-list/archive/zorn-list.9805

Internet Message Format | 1998-05-31 | 658KB

From: "Patrick Stockton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: ZAPPA
Date: 30 Apr 1998 23:16:58 -0700

i could go on for hours concerning frank zappa and his work but i will
spare you all..... yes frank  zapppa was a serious and VERY competent
composer.  Having works premiered by Peter Boulez conducting is a very
serious deal.  and even zappa was disappointed on how it turnded out.
Working with the Ensemble Modern, at their request, on "the yellow shark"
is another milestone achievement considering the fact that they play only
the finest "new" music.

coinsidering the fact that new music is not very well funded in the US, and
zappa completely self-financed all of his projects, doing work with large
orchestras was extremely expensive, and frustrating.  especially when the
union musicians walk out in the middle of the rocording of the last take of
a piece because they had gone over time.  ruining the entire days work.
(see it old you i could ramble on and on)

while the fact that FZ composed music in other genres that most do not
consider "serious", keeps him away from the serious composers group, he
deserves a place among the most important american artists of the 20th
century.  not only for his compositional prowess, but also for the extreme
levels of conceptual continuity that exists in ALL of his works recorded
and otherwise.  over thirty years and 60+ albums (with superb player),
zappa created a lifework that cannot be evaluated piecemeal.  just as we
would not want to single out any one particular zorn work or recording to
hold as the ideological or stylistic norm, we need to extend the same to
the late great frank zappa.

additionally, he was never formally trained in music.... that is he never
went to school or a conservatory.  he taught himself how to play the
guitar, very well. yet when you hear him explain his music technically or
creatively, he displays an enormous corpus of musical knowledge.  as far as
i am concerned he is pure musical genius.     and the icing on the cake is
that he is extremely intellectual yet comical in his unrelenting, spare no
one, social critiques.

in conclusion, there is alot more going on than arranging "creepy sounds".
in the same way that zorn is not.  would we ask the same questio of the
newsgroups namesake?

patrick in portland

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From: Alan E Kayser <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Victo festival
Date: 01 May 1998 07:56:54 -0400

R=E9mi Bissonnette wrote:

> Jon wrote:
>
> "So who's going to Victoriaville besides me? It looks like the
> strongest lineup
> of the three I've been to so far."
>
> Well, I am -- but since I live in the area, it's no big feat. I'm
> looking
> forward to the Zorn/Patton/Mori gig, since I've never heard these
> three
> playing together.  I would love to see the Gerry Hemingway Quartet
> (with
> Han Bennink opening, no less!) but sadly I really can't make that one.
>
> Bruno
>
> R=E9mi Bissonnette Ph.D.
>

Remi:

You might want to jump in the car and drive to Philadelphia on May 22.
The Gerry Hemingway Quartet, featuring Ellery Eskelin, Mark Dresser, and
Herb Roberston, will be performing here that evening.  The show will be
held at the Unitarian Church, between 21st and 22nd on Chestnut.  Show
is at 7:30.  Come early!!  Another Sweetnighter Production.

Alan Kayser (Sweetnighter Productions)

> -




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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re[2]: Frank Zappa as composer
Date: 01 May 1998 13:19:34 UT

<<
Greg Mills wrote:

> Was Frank Zappa a "competent" composer? I like his orchestral stuff, but
> I am a mere country rube.Was good at what he did, or was he merely adept
> at making creepy sounds fit together?

He was adept at making sounds fit together... which is about as much of
a definition of a "competent" composer as is needed.
>>

Besides, who gives a fuck what everyone else thinks.  If you like what he does,
then he must have been a good enough composer for you, and that's all that
matters.

PeterR

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From: Sulacco <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re:  Re: Buckethead's Colma
Date: 01 May 1998 09:35:45 EDT

i've seen it at Tower and Barnes&Noble. i rather enjoy the disc. its not
complete shredra like Bucketheadland, but it demonstrates his progression as a
guitarist and composer (whew, that sounded heavy)

-



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From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: ZAPPA
Date: 01 May 1998 08:38:33 -0700


On Thu, 30 Apr 1998 23:16:58 -0700  "Patrick Stockton" wrote:
>
> i could go on for hours concerning frank zappa and his work but i will
> spare you all..... yes frank  zapppa was a serious and VERY competent
> composer.  Having works premiered by Peter Boulez conducting is a very
                    ^^^^^^^^^^^
The fact that Boulez chose Zappa as an "outside" composer has always
looked suspicious to me (but it seems that I am the only one to see
something strange here).

Boulez got attacked quite a bit in the '80s for having a very narrow vision
of what is great contemporary music. I remember how much he dismissed
basically every composer who did not have his card of affiliated serial
composer. Even composers such as Ligetti had a hard time to be accepted
(I don't remember Boulez' comment about Ligetti, but it was far from being
flattering). Anyway, it seems to me that under more and more pressure to
open the range of the Ensemble Intercontemporain program, he decided (against
his will, I am sure), to get "outsiders" (definition easy to match when you
know how narrow Boulez'vision of a good modern composer is). Surprisingly,
he chose Zappa. I will always feel that his choice of Zappa was his way to
show that he was more open that people thought, but, at the same time, he
chose an artist whose "serious" music was more or less falling in the only
cannon he believed was worth pushing: post-serial music!

Can't stop thinking how good he felt seeing a young and popular artist such
as Zappa writing music in the post-serial vein, when so many people were
saying that the genre was a dead-end.

    Patrice.

-



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From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Victo festival
Date: 01 May 1998 12:36:18 -0400 (EDT)

Or if you want to save your American $$$ and experience Canada's jazz/new=
=20
music capital, Hemmingway et.al will be at the=20
Rivoli in Toronto May 16. Probably $15. I'll be at FIMAV at that time,=20
though.

Ken Waxman
[e-mail]





On Fri, 1 May 1998, Alan E Kayser wrote:

> R=E9mi Bissonnette wrote:
>=20
> > Jon wrote:
> >
> > "So who's going to Victoriaville besides me? It looks like the
> > strongest lineup
> > of the three I've been to so far."
> >
> > Well, I am -- but since I live in the area, it's no big feat. I'm
> > looking
> > forward to the Zorn/Patton/Mori gig, since I've never heard these
> > three
> > playing together.  I would love to see the Gerry Hemingway Quartet
> > (with
> > Han Bennink opening, no less!) but sadly I really can't make that one.
> >
> > Bruno
> >
> > R=E9mi Bissonnette Ph.D.
> >
>=20
> Remi:
>=20
> You might want to jump in the car and drive to Philadelphia on May 22.
> The Gerry Hemingway Quartet, featuring Ellery Eskelin, Mark Dresser, and
> Herb Roberston, will be performing here that evening.  The show will be
> held at the Unitarian Church, between 21st and 22nd on Chestnut.  Show
> is at 7:30.  Come early!!  Another Sweetnighter Production.
>=20
> Alan Kayser (Sweetnighter Productions)
>=20
> > -
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> -
>=20
>=20

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From: [e-mail] (Douglas Tapia)
Subject: Re: Gerry @ Victo festival
Date: 01 May 1998 10:50:53 -0700

>I would love to see the Gerry Hemingway Quartet (with
>Han Bennink opening, no less!) but sadly I really can't make that one.


That's really too bad.  I caught Gerry's Quartet at Maxamillion's in Denver
this past sunday and the band was amazing.  The audience sat entranced for
the 3+ hours of the show.  The Quartet out on tour this time around
consists of Ray Anderson-tbn, Elerry Esklin-tnr, Michael Formanek-bs, and
Gerry Hemmingway-drs.

Ray sounded great as always and amazed all the bone geeks with his
superhuman ability on the instrument, playing triads, taking half his slide
off and playing a long solo that way, and of course his range, his range.

I'd never seen Elerry live, but have heard him on quite a few recordings.
He blew me away.  For my money, he stole the show.  I was sitting with Ron
Miles and the guys from his trio (Artie Moore, Tim Sullivan) and some of
the rest of Colorado's great jazz musicians and we were all in awe of
Elerry's playing.  You must see this guy live!

Michael sounded great as always and played with his usually technical
prowess balanced by his uncanny sense of taste and appropriatness.  Michael
is one in a rare group of players who can drone on an onstinato for thirty
minutes without loosing any of the freshness of the idea, and then turn
around and play like Scott LaFarro.

Gerry's composition was stunning and his playing was other worldly.  He was
never not musical.  He played one of the loudest, thrashingest solos I've
ever heard, but his talent and the groups sympathy to what he was doing
made this work in every way.  He delighted the audience by using his breath
to alter the pitch of his floor tom (there was a piece of syrgical tubing
atached to the hole in the side of the tom which he blew into to increase
the air presure inside the drum.)  This was a revelation to me, but a
drummer friend informed me that this had been done in the '70s with Zappa's
band.

One of the best concerts I've seen in a while, this group was so, so, so
musical, and the group payed brief musical tribute to the harmelodic groups
(Ornette, Masada, et al) that have come before and greatly expanded on this
tradition.
___
This after seeing a week worth of the new Art Lande Quartet featuring Paul
McCandless, Dean Johnson, and Eliot Zigmond at the West End in Boulder and
at the UNC Jazz Festival.  This was an amazing group that might just be
coming to a city near you soon, so if you get the chance, check it out.
IMHO this is one of the freshest colective improv groups ever assembled and
reflect the diversity in the member's background.

-Doug




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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Couple of semi-AMM-related questions
Date: 30 Apr 1998 10:48:31 -0500


     Can anyone cite or recommend:

     1) Any piano works by John Tilbury outside of AMM? Including those
     featuring music by other composers. I understand he's recorded a good
     deal of Feldman for the London Hall label.

     2) Any recordings by the British composer (and occasional AMM
     collaborator) Howard Skempton.

     Thanks,

     Brian Olewnick



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From:    William York <[e-mail]>
Subject: Myra Melford in NC
Date: 01 May 1998 12:59:31 -0400 (EDT)

I saw Myra Melford w/ Stomu Takeishi and Kenny Wolleson last night and
they were really amazing.  Wollesen was especially surprising because I
have heard him on records but mostly in a supporting role.  He certainly
isn't an imposing physical presence but he was very musical in his use of
sticks brushes, mallets, hands, and fingers.  Sometimes these extended
techniques can get in the way but generally he was on top of things.
Takeishi makes aa lot of strange movements while he is playing but for an
electric bass player in a jazz setting I thought he did very well.  This
is a great group, and their concept of interplay within Melford's songs is
pretty unique and completely absorbing- rather than more rubato 'insect'
style playing they have a way of playing where every player has an equally
important role.  I would haveprobably enjoyed just seeing Melford play
solo as much.  Does anyone know if her trio recordings (diff. lineup I
know) live up to her live shows?

Also, re: Buckethead 'Colma', I don't get where the appeal would be in
this.  I'm not saying no one would like it, but I was unable to endure the
lenght of any of the songs when listening to it.


-



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From: Perfect Sound Forever <[e-mail]>
Subject: Milford Graves interview
Date: 01 May 1998 13:24:08 -0400

Perfect Sound Forever now has an interview with Professor Milford Graves, who talks about the connection between two life-long passions- music and
therapy: see http://www.furious.com/perfect/milfordgraves.html

You might also be interested in the new articles on Post-Rock cliches  (http://www.furious.com/perfect/postrock.html)  and French Rock
(http://www.furious.com/perfect/frenchrock.html) on the site.

Graves will be opening for Sonic Youth for some of their June dates here in New York at Irving Plaza.  Interestingly, Irving Plaza also has Graves
opening for Cheap Trick (!)



See you online,
Jason



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Couple of semi-AMM-related questions
Date: 30 Apr 1998 14:32:58 -0500


     Can anyone cite or recommend:

     1) Any piano works by John Tilbury outside of AMM? Including those
     featuring music by other composers. I understand he's recorded a good
     deal of Feldman for the London Hall label.

     2) Any recordings by the British composer (and occasional AMM
     collaborator) Howard Skempton.

     Thanks,

     Brian Olewnick



-



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From: David Newgarden <[e-mail]>
Subject: re: Steve Smith's incredibly detailed account of befuddlement at the Roscoe Mitchell concert, NYC 4/27/98 aka 'Spazz At The , Philharmonic'
Date: 30 Apr 1998 16:49:52 -0400 (EDT)


Steve -

Sorry I missed your post-show head-scratching and discussion  -- I
sprinted to catch the 2nd Masada set 8 blocks away (I unfortunately missed
Zorn's camera/tape-recorder escapade, but he had some pretty
thought-provoking comments about it afterwards).

I very much _enjoyed_ the Roscoe Mitchell concert. I'm a long-time fan
and came in knowing what to expect, but honestly I'm not a fanatic. It's
been a few years since I've listened to anything by Mitchell and I
certainly have varying interest in his very different projects (I'd
personally rather watch Teletubbies than listen to his 'Space Ensemble'
extreme register stuff with Thomas Buckner), but I don't know if I'd be
quick to condemn any of it...

Given your intellect and diverse tastes, and with all your analyzing and
discussing of these 3 Mitchell pieces, I'm surprised that you're so
baffled by them, and that you're vexed by the brevity of the program
notes(!?)  It's one thing to not enjoy a concert, but it's surprising that
you completely dismiss it despite giving it so much thought, and it's
surprising knowing you're such a huge Art Ensemble of Chicago fan to find
that you're unfamiliar with one of the major threads of Mitchell's work.
Besides the LRG/The Maze/SII Examples album (1978), there are at least
several other albums in a similar vein - I'm thinking of Solo Saxophone
Concerts (1974), Live At The Muhle Hunziken (1987), Duets with Braxton
(1978) and the stunning Noonah (1977), which is a little more 'obvious'
because of its repetition, but investigates similar terrain.

Steve Smith wrote:
>(L-R-G) I can't say much more than that for me this piece was easily the
>low point of the evening. It seemed like little more than an exercise in
>pointillistic frustration. But let me also mention that the A.A.C.M.
>did no one any favors by not providing notes for the composition in the
>program.  There may have been a compelling method behind the seemingly
>pointless bleeps and burbles that passed from one player to another,
>seldom in tandem.  But lacking those notes, all one heard was what I
>described, and I'd be surprised to hear if anyone else found the piece
>convincing.

LRG seemed to me to be a study of timbre, texture, articulation, tension,
'flow', 'space' 'sound'  (these seem like appropriate words given his
groups SPACE and SOUND Ensemble; Mitchell used 'flow' in the
'controversial' program notes)...  Stripped of melody, harmony, rhythm,
tempo, polyphony  (or 'ensemble work' as you put it), the music's like a
magnifying glass or an x-ray isolating particular musical aspects. I can
dig your comparison to Tony Conrad, focusing on the texture of Conrad's
violin bowing...but I would think of very different comparisons to
ballpark it  -- How about:
Giancinto Scelsi solo instrument compositions
Braxton For Alto Saxophone
Zorn  Classic Guide To Strategy
solo Derek Bailey
Each has developed their own personal language investigating these similar
elements (timbre, texture, flow, space, tension), to varying degrees
eliminating melody, harmony, rhythm, tempos etc.  I find them all
'convincing' - granted, not everyone does.

Mitchell's certainly capable of gorgeous lyricism and intense violent
emotion, as well as hilarious entertainment (no slight intended -- the Art
Ensemble has been one of my favorite groups since I first saw them at age
13), but these characteristics are not the point in L-R-G and its
'success' shouldn't necessarily be judged on those levels. Geez, there
were no lyrics either...   I think it's very sad that you and your friends
equate 'cerebral' with 'dislike.' It seems to me that your need to judge
the piece on your specifications of 'pure music' (not to mention your
expectations of what Leo Smith should do) is reactionary and 'moldy
fig-ish'... Would you judge Painkiller, Masada, Naked City, News For Lulu,
Cobra performances all on the same standards of 'pure music'? Do you judge
rap music on its melody and harmony?

You noted and admired George Lewis' inventiveness and unusual instrumental
technique on LRG and you noted Mitchell's written description ("sound
collages based on the individual vocabularies of the players") and you
even discovered a major clue that I missed: LRG = Leo/Roscoe/George. For
me, these observations bring to mind Ellington's composing specifically
for the personalities of his particular performers, or for some relevance
to this list, compare to Zorn's 'Book of Heads' composed specifically for
Eugene Chadbourne's oddball guitar techniques.

I hadn't listened to the LRG album in at least 10 years, but I've pulled
it out now. Mitchell's album liner notes touch on many other ideas that
I'm not going to mention here (I'll gladly send a xerox by fax or mail to
anyone who wants one), but one simple simile he uses to describe LRG is
'photo snapshots' of the many 'sound worlds' of George Lewis, which
Mitchell as composer has 'pasted into a collage'. To take it a step
further, the 'space' and 'flow' of the piece suggest to me a quickly
moving slide show -- no it's certainly not a motion picture, it's not
'Gone With The Wind' or 'Titanic', but is it valid? Is it 'convincing'? Is
it fascinating? Is it art?

Si, senor!

Anyway - I enjoyed the concert, and I assume I'm not completely alone
considering the loud and enthusiastic applause. As you mentioned it was an
audience of pretty heavy musicians/composers (Marion Brown, Noah Howard,
Jumma Santos, Anthony Coleman, Myra Melford, J.D. Parran, Kelvyn Bell). I
also celeb-spotted Leroy Jenkins, Phill Niblock, Petr Kotik, Tom Surgal,
Alan Licht, David Nuss and Judy Dunaway in the house (as well as Graham
Lock who flew in from London)

It's pretty amusing (and a feather in Mitchell's cap) for a confused
audience member to walk out muttering at him in 1998... It makes me
chuckle that you find this guy noteworthy and that a (sympathetic) nitwit
in the audience yelled 'Shut Up! ' about 10 times louder than the
mutterer. (Mitchell's liner notes to the live Noonah album includes an
amazing description of his 'battle' with the audience). Did you, too, ask
for your money back?

If you require some legit critical nudging, I'll recommend checking out
John Litweiler (The Freedom Principle: Jazz After 1958) in addition to
your Rolling Stone Jazz Guide.  Litweiler has a lot to say about Mitchell
and devotes two pages to these specific pieces (much more enthusiastically
and eloquently than me). Here are a couple of excerpts:

"While the twentieth century is the era of percussion compositions, from
Varese to Stockhausen and Wuorinen, they all seem naive tours de force
next to the immense skill and finesse of The Maze...  a startling
composition...The Maze is a rich chiaroscuro of clearly defined, mobile
wood and metal textures, with a great elegance of detail.

L-R-G is an existentialist statement, a condition of life, a state of
being; it is Mitchell's most intimate revelation."

Hopefully someone will take me to task for dis-ing the Space Ensemble....

-David Newgarden











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From: George Grella <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: ZAPPA
Date: 01 May 1998 12:24:22 -0800

Patrice L. Roussel writes:

> Boulez got attacked quite a bit in the '80s for having a very narrow vision
> of what is great contemporary music. I remember how much he dismissed
> basically every composer who did not have his card of affiliated serial
> composer. Even composers such as Ligetti had a hard time to be accepted
> (I don't remember Boulez' comment about Ligetti, but it was far from being
> flattering). Anyway, it seems to me that under more and more pressure to
> open the range of the Ensemble Intercontemporain program, he decided (against
> his will, I am sure), to get "outsiders" (definition easy to match when you
> know how narrow Boulez'vision of a good modern composer is). Surprisingly,
> he chose Zappa. I will always feel that his choice of Zappa was his way to
> show that he was more open that people thought, but, at the same time, he
> chose an artist whose "serious" music was more or less falling in the only
> cannon he believed was worth pushing: post-serial music!

This is not accurate or fair to Boulez, nor is it understanding of the
context that Zappa/Boulez/Ensemble Intercontemporain fall under.

Boulez has, for DECADES, promoted and performed music that is not serial
music; Messiaen, Carter, Birtwhistle, Ligeti, Ferneyhough and others.
Yeah, he's been peforming Ligeti long before the three concerto CD of
recent issue.  Saying that the Ensemble had to open up their range
completely misunderstands the state of contemporary music, which has the
broadest range of any point in the history of western art music.

This is a sort of anti-snob snobbery I have seen a lot, especially in
regards to Boulez.  When he was a younger composer, he was a rigorous
serialist and, admittedly, very rigid about that in his opinions.  But
the guy has also been one of the world's leading conductors since the
1960's, leading all sorts of non--serial music from the contemporary
composers above through Wagner, Mahler, the second Viennese school
[including their non-serial works, of which there are many], Berlioz,
Debussy, Ravel, Stravinsky.  That's a lot of music.  His own work has
broken free of the same rigid constraints since then as well; listen to
his piece memorializing Bruno Maderna, among others.  And the Ensemble
exists to play contemporary music, whether Boulez is leading them or
not, and that means, yes, non-serial pieces, pieces other than by Boulez
himself.

Don't be so surprised by Zappa, think of it in terms of music, not
fashion or attitude.  Zappa's music is firmly in the vein that Varese
pioneered.  And it is also well made in terms of craft.  Boulez has long
been an exponent of Varese, so why wouldn't he be sympathetic to Zappa's
work on musical terms alone?  I know he's been on the record as saying
it's good music, and he liked it.

Boiulez's ego is certainly such that he has no need to show or prove to
anybody how open his mind is.  What does he care, what does he have to
prove?  Zilch.  Especially in terms of contemporary music, he's THE MAN
there; the only comparable figures I can think of who have done as much
for the whole range of contemporary music are David Robertson [also a
director of the Ensemble Intercontemporain] and Paul Sacher, in terms of
programming and performing.

Boulez is demonstrating a new side lately, but it's quite the opposite
of what Patrice claimed; he's used Berg as a stepping stone BACK in time
to Mahler.  He's been in the midst of recording a Mahler cycle over the
past three or four years.

gg

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From: "m. rizzi" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Masada KF broadcasts
Date: 01 May 1998 12:30:24 -0700 (PDT)

Jack Blanton, demi-God and Icon sez:
>
>I am quite suprised that Zorn didn't know that this was happening, I mean
>I've know about it for a while and I didn't have a video camera pointed at
>me while performing.

    Ever been on stage before? If you're lucky
    you can see peoples faces in the second row
    (due to all the direct light facing the stage
    area) which makes it real hard to see a dinky
    video camera up in the hot sweaty balcony.

    m

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From: chad edwards <[e-mail]>
Subject: Leng Tche
Date: 01 May 1998 12:49:45 -0700 (PDT)


I noticed in the liner notes of NAKED CITY's Leng
Tche. that there is special thanks given to Mike
Patton and the Melvins.
I noticed that Leng Tche is fairly Melvinesque from
the first time I heard it.
Did Mike or any of the Melvis perform on this album?
Why was thanks given?

Chad.




_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


-



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From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Myra Melford in NC
Date: 01 May 1998 16:02:04 -0400 (EDT)

On Fri, 1 May 1998, William York wrote:

.  Does anyone know if her trio recordings (diff. lineup I
> know) live up to her live shows?
>
Yes, they do. Try "Alive In The House of Saints" on hatArt with her
"real" trio Lindsay Horner (b) and Reggie Nicholson (d) and you'll see
what I mean. The power that comes from those small hands ...

Ken Waxman
[e-mail]

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From: TWHY666 <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Leng Tche
Date: 01 May 1998 16:31:15 EDT

>>>I noticed in the liner notes of NAKED CITY's Leng
Tche. that there is special thanks given to Mike
Patton and the Melvins.
I noticed that Leng Tche is fairly Melvinesque from
the first time I heard it.
Did Mike or any of the Melvis perform on this album?
Why was thanks given?

Chad<<<

listen to The Melvins "Joe Preston" album the idea for Leng T'che was taken
from the third song "Hands First Flower" 20 min. of slow chords and ambient
noise's!

Chad Boltz

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From: Tony Reif <[e-mail]>
Subject: Chris Speed
Date: 01 May 1998 14:04:55 -0700 (PDT)

I know it's gauche for a label to hype its own artists, but, like the hair
replacement VP in the commercial, "I'm also a fan", and for me Yeah No's
recent concert at the Western Front in Vancouver was a real high point.
Anyone on the list near Santa Cruz (tonight), SF, San Diego or LA, do check
out their remaining concerts. Good as the record is, you gotta hear them
live.

Some of the things I love about this group:

- the way they really play together: transitions, counterpoint, the
sometimes dense and shifting give-and-take of textures and gestures that
maintains an almost hallucinatory clarity.

- Chris's melodies, stringent and delicate, and his beautiful take on
Coltrane on the tenor (though I wish he'd play more clarinet!)

- the sheer fun of Jim Black. Watching him make action-music by for example
"randomly" and teasingly dangling a heavy chain over, around and across
several stainless steel bowls, more or less daring things to take their own
course (while his other appendages offer the occasional comment)
foregrounds the falseness of such apparent dichotomies as freedom and
necessity, improvisation and composition, elegance and crudeness...

- Skuli Sverrisson's chops, imagination and great sound(s) on electric
bass, an instrument I'm not always overly fond of. And when he starts
preparing and bowing it...

Nuff said.














Tony Reif (Songlines Recordings)



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From: Tony Reif <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: CIMP recording
Date: 01 May 1998 14:04:52 -0700 (PDT)

I've only heard a couple of CIMPs and people tell me that some come off
better than others sonically. I have audiophile leanings myself: I think
dynamic range is generally a good thing and obvious audible compression
always a bad thing, I like to hear a realistic soundstage and
dimensionality to instruments and a sense of ambience (qualities that with
panned mono multimiking, especially in 16 bit digital, tend to be in short
supply), and I hate tasteless and artificial sounding reverb, but I also
feel that many of the best sounding jazz records hide their artifice rather
than adhering to a purist recording approach.

When it comes down to it, any way you can get the music's emotion and
aliveness on record is an accomplishment. I don't want a document of the
sound of a studio or even necessarily that of a good hall, if it draws
attention to the recording process and the recording space rather than the
music. And for me the CIMP (and before them the Chesky) approach can do
that in not-so-subtle ways that rob the music of its impact and even its
supposed naturalness: for example, problems of perspective. Example: if a
trumpet isn't going to overpower a double bass it has to be farther from
the mikes, but then it has too much room sound around it compared to the
bass...and in the process the trumpet timbre is compromised. Or else you
have to ask the performers to second guess their own playing volume in
relation to the dynamics of what the mike placement requires...not a good
idea in improvised music that depends on abandon...

I'm not saying that two mikes in a room can't ever work, sometimes indeed
less is more, because it's inevitable that the more electronics you put
between the players and the listener the greater the potential loss of
realism. I am saying that talented engineers who know their mikes and have
really good recording equipment can do live mixes (or even multitrack and
mix later), whether it takes 2 mikes or 10, and even out the
anomalies/artefacts of the recording situation while maintaining a degree
of presence, texture and detail that helps get the spirit of music across
the aluminum barrier. Finally it's not just acoustics but psychoacoustics
and the very significant differences between seeing/hearing music live and
hearing it on disc that have to be taken into account. Live, the listener
sees the music and up to a point (but only up to a point - I still prefer
the front row and no sound reinforcement!) unconsciously corrects for sonic
inadequaces in the heat of a real, unfolding and never-to-be-repeated
experience. On disc, with only sonic cues and a severely circumscribed
setting (yeah, your house could still burn down but with the music you know
that nothing can happen that hasn't already happened), what you hear is
what you get.


Tony Reif (Songlines Recordings)



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re[2]: Leng Tche
Date: 01 May 1998 22:07:27 UT


>>>I noticed in the liner notes of NAKED CITY's Leng
Tche. that there is special thanks given to Mike
Patton and the Melvins.
I noticed that Leng Tche is fairly Melvinesque from
the first time I heard it.
Did Mike or any of the Melvis perform on this album?
Why was thanks given?

Chad<<<

Well, it's been said from, I think, Zorn's mouth that neither played on the
album.

<<
listen to The Melvins "Joe Preston" album the idea for Leng T'che was taken
from the third song "Hands First Flower" 20 min. of slow chords and ambient
noise's!
>>

Melvins were doing this way before Joe, with Charmicarmicat on Eggnog and the
beginning of the Lysol album.  Even way back on Ozma with Eyes Flys.

PeterR

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: ZAPPA
Date: 01 May 1998 16:30:17 -0700


    I was just giving my perception of what happened in France. You
know, what you learn and feel when things are happening in front of your
eyes or from the mouth of other artists who were not moving in the alleys
of power. I guess I should read more about how Boulez is interpreted
these days, instead of trusting what I saw and heard when it was happe-
ning.

    Patrice (who starts to wonder how far from France you have to be
      to see IRCAM as a glamourous institution).

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Lang Thompson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Resoundings Fest in Atlanta
Date: 01 May 1998 23:30:02 -0400

Just thought some of you might want to know about the Resounding(s)
festival which will be held in Atlanta July 16, 17 & 18.  It's co-sponsored
by the National Black Arts Festial and the Goethe Institute.  Though the
line-up doesn't seem to be entirely confirmed just yet, it's planned to
include Peter Brotzmann, Leo Smith, Alexander von Schilppenbach, George
Lewis, Peter Kowald, Andrew Cyrille, Paul Lovens, Roscoe Mitchell, Conrad
Bauer, Gunter Sommer and others.  The info number is 888-836-6223.
Lang Thompson
http://www.tcf.ua.edu/wlt4
New at Funhouse:  Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan obituary.

"Zathras beast of burden to many others.  Is sad
life.  Probably have sad death.  But at least
there is symmetry."  --  Zathras

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Nathaniel Dorward <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zappa as a composer
Date: 02 May 1998 02:50:41 -0300 (ADT)

A few bits from Ben Watson/Out to Lunch's comments on Zappa's orchestral
writing in _Frank Zappa: The Negative Dialectics of Poodle Play_: this on
the LSO albums (sorry for the big textual swatch here, but here goes):

    "The beauty of Zappa's orchestral music is a fresh, unacademic
weighing of particular sounds: you can hear him think as he balances drum
rolls and string scratching against the clarinet line....
    "Zappa is an extremely linear--or real-time--composer.  His
musical decisions result from the attention of the listening ear.  Whereas
Darmstadt composers frequently pursue a dialectic of schematic,
mathematical invention versus playability and audibility, Zappa uses
scores to direct musicians rather than to figure abstract shapes.  This
means that he very rarely attains the complex simultaneity that
characterizes Boulez or early Stockhausen.  In writing for full orchestra,
without the automatic simultaneity of playing with an improvising band of
musicians, he does not exploit the specific potential of scores, which is
to generate separate--but simultaneous--events.  However, what he does
contribute is a sense of freewheeling absurdity that academic composers
find impossible to attempt without sounding tiresome. ...
    "This orchestral music is an essential adjunct to the
project/object.  Not only does it allow us to hear Zappa's music refracted
through the traditional vehicle of bourgeois expression, it also
demonstrates the economic vicissitudes and social contradictions involved
in the area.  Just as much as the _200 Motels_ court case, Zappa uses the
opportunity to make all kinds of fissures appear in the for-granted status
of traditional practices.  But it cannot be said that Zappa has left the
field of classical composition behind as he has left fusion (or 'abstract
music using rock sonorities'): a burnt-up field.  If the postmoderns were
correct, and the high-art avant-garde were utterly moribund, Zappa's work
would stand out heroically against minimal piety and neo-religious
obfuscation.  However, new sounds are still being generated with the
symphony orchestra, as the work of James Dillon demonstrates.  In this
context, Zappa's orchestral style sounds like an intriguing burlesque in a
side alley."

A few pages later, in connection with Boulez and _The Perfect Stranger_,
Watson notes that "However, he would not let the collaboration be read as
'endorsement' of Zappa, and puzzled the press with his reticence in
praising Zappa's scores.  'I reserve judgement about all the qualities of
Zappa's music,' he told _Liberation_.  Out of the press conferences,
though, he replied to a question asking if he liked Zappa's music by
saying, 'Certainly.  I found a kind of vitality and it was very good for
our musicians to do that: they were not accustomed at all to it, and
that's good to work on it.'"

Don't know how much I'd agree with all the foregoing, but thought it worth
an airing. --N

                        *

                    Nate Dorward  ([e-mail])
                    website: http://is2.dal..ca/~ndorward/

                        *

        And I hear
            what's missing there
            music is core of the missing
                the code of fly time

                        --Clark Coolidge


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: George Grella <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Boulez
Date: 02 May 1998 08:11:41 -0800

Patrice L. Roussel writes:

> I was just giving my perception of what happened in France. You
> know, what you learn and feel when things are happening in front of your
> eyes or from the mouth of other artists who were not moving in the alleys
> of power. I guess I should read more about how Boulez is interpreted
> these days, instead of trusting what I saw and heard when it was happe-
> ning.

I know that Boulez has a personality that has rubbed a lot of people the
wrong way, but to complain about his character and/or personal
motivations is just to indulge in gossip.  And attacking him because his
musical style is a certain way, not another way, isn't fair; Zorn, Cecil
Taylor, all the other musicians that people on this list admire could be
attacked in the same manner.

Whether one likes him as a person, or even likes his music, Boulez has
done a great deal for contemporary music and his international stature
has come from hard work and ability, he earned it.  Coincidentally, when
I got home a new copy of the New York Review of Books had arrived with
an article by Charles Rosen, "Who's Afraid of the Avant-Garde?" in which
he mentions Boulez many times, including this relevant footnote:

"It is significant that when Pierre Boulez took over the New York
Philharmonic and started to schedule many unfamiliar works, the
subscription dropped from the 100 percent achieved under Leonard
Bernstein, but that when he left a few years later, it had mounted back
to over 95 percent - and, most important of all, the average age of the
subscribers had fallen by ten years.  And when Boulez initiated a
two-week series at the end of the season called "Rug Concerts," for
which the seats in the parterre were removed and young people could sit
on the floor (like the Prom Concerts in London), 1500 people were turned
away every day for seven days a week.  After he left, there was an
attempt to continue the project, but it failed.  Young music lovers
would come to hear Boulez if they could sit on the floor, but they would
not buy a ticket to sit in a chair or come for a conductor less
adventurous."

You can check out the rest at "www.nybooks.com."

gg

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: ZAPPA
Date: 01 May 1998 12:58:20 -0700


On Fri, 01 May 1998 12:24:22 -0800  George Grella wrote:
>
> Patrice L. Roussel writes:
>
> > Boulez got attacked quite a bit in the '80s for having a very narrow vision
> > of what is great contemporary music. I remember how much he dismissed
> > basically every composer who did not have his card of affiliated serial
> > composer. Even composers such as Ligetti had a hard time to be accepted
> > (I don't remember Boulez' comment about Ligetti, but it was far from being
> > flattering). Anyway, it seems to me that under more and more pressure to
> > open the range of the Ensemble Intercontemporain program, he decided (against
> > his will, I am sure), to get "outsiders" (definition easy to match when you
> > know how narrow Boulez'vision of a good modern composer is). Surprisingly,
> > he chose Zappa. I will always feel that his choice of Zappa was his way to
> > show that he was more open that people thought, but, at the same time, he
> > chose an artist whose "serious" music was more or less falling in the only
> > cannon he believed was worth pushing: post-serial music!
>
> This is not accurate or fair to Boulez, nor is it understanding of the
> context that Zappa/Boulez/Ensemble Intercontemporain fall under.
>
> Boulez has, for DECADES, promoted and performed music that is not serial
> music; Messiaen, Carter, Birtwhistle, Ligeti, Ferneyhough and others.

I was not implying at all that Boulez started to program music outside
serial music after getting Zappa...

Yes, Boulez, has been programming music that is not serial music for a long
time. But when it came to younger composers (than him), he was fairly reluctant
to do so in the '60, and '70s.

Boulez has been highly critical of most of the genres that are not derivative
from serial music (again, I am talking about the period when his power was
in full action).

I don't even want to start with how he treated, for a long time, composers of
his age: Cage (yes, I know, Cage is 13 years older that Boulez), Stockhausen
(after their "dispute"), Xenakis (who had to fight to keep his music studio
alive when IRCAM was gobbling down huge resources for the results we know),
Ligetti, Kagel.

The fact that he has cooled down in that past 20 years does not change what
he did for a long time. With his fascination for power, he ended up to control
a large portion of what contemporary music was in France. Some composers
started seriously to breath when he had to retire from many of his official
positions; unfortunately, it was already too late for many of them.

> Yeah, he's been peforming Ligeti long before the three concerto CD of
                ^^^^^^
I don't know why he ended up to play Ligetti, but it was certainly not
for liking his music.

> recent issue.  Saying that the Ensemble had to open up their range
> completely misunderstands the state of contemporary music, which has the
> broadest range of any point in the history of western art music.
>
> This is a sort of anti-snob snobbery I have seen a lot, especially in
> regards to Boulez.  When he was a younger composer, he was a rigorous
> serialist and, admittedly, very rigid about that in his opinions.  But
> the guy has also been one of the world's leading conductors since the
> 1960's, leading all sorts of non--serial music from the contemporary
> composers above through Wagner, Mahler, the second Viennese school
> [including their non-serial works, of which there are many], Berlioz,
> Debussy, Ravel, Stravinsky.  That's a lot of music.  His own work has
> broken free of the same rigid constraints since then as well; listen to
> his piece memorializing Bruno Maderna, among others.  And the Ensemble
> exists to play contemporary music, whether Boulez is leading them or
> not, and that means, yes, non-serial pieces, pieces other than by Boulez
> himself.
>
> Don't be so surprised by Zappa, think of it in terms of music, not
> fashion or attitude.  Zappa's music is firmly in the vein that Varese
> pioneered.  And it is also well made in terms of craft.  Boulez has long
> been an exponent of Varese, so why wouldn't he be sympathetic to Zappa's
> work on musical terms alone?  I know he's been on the record as saying
> it's good music, and he liked it.
>
> Boiulez's ego is certainly such that he has no need to show or prove to
> anybody how open his mind is.  What does he care, what does he have to
> prove?  Zilch.  Especially in terms of contemporary music, he's THE MAN
                                  ^^^^^^^

I am not sure that I follow you there either. Yes, Boulez put out some
interesting compositions in the late '40s and '50s. Anything major after
that? I am not sure. It seems to me that the more unproductive he became
in the '60s, the more bitter he ended up. Have you ever tried to understand
why the supposed "greatest modern composer after WWII" stopped composing
and turned to conducting?

> there; the only comparable figures I can think of who have done as much
> for the whole range of contemporary music are David Robertson [also a
> director of the Ensemble Intercontemporain] and Paul Sacher, in terms of
> programming and performing.
>
> Boulez is demonstrating a new side lately, but it's quite the opposite
            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I have not stated anything related the the "current" Boulez. I don't care
how nice he is becoming in his old age.

> of what Patrice claimed; he's used Berg as a stepping stone BACK in time
> to Mahler.  He's been in the midst of recording a Mahler cycle over the
> past three or four years.

    Patrice.



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Patrice L. Roussel writes:

[I can't say for sure that I know what this all actually means, but I
still disagree with what I think it indicates.]

> Yes, Boulez, has been programming music that is not serial music for a long
> time. But when it came to younger composers (than him), he was fairly reluctant
> to do so in the '60, and '70s.
>


Casting aside the subjective judgement ["fairly reluctant"] I would have
to say, so what?  This is not criticism, this is just saying that you
don't have the same taste that Boulez had in the 60s and 70s, although I
don't feel you have a good idea of what that taste was. As music
director the the NYPO, for example, Boulez was under no obligation to
program music he didn't like, much less music by composers younger than
him.  I don't see the point of judging him on that basis anyway; is the
only criteria that mattered that the composers were younger than him?
Do you mean that if the composer was a younger contemporary even, Boulez
would reject their work, based on AGE?  If their music was not like his,
but if they were older, he'd program them?  Nonsense.  At New York,
Chicago, Cleveland, Boulez brought a lot of contemporary music, which
meant music that was contemporary to him and the audiences, regardless
of the composers exact birthdate.  And much of this music was not serial
music.  Try "Sinfonia" for example, and please, please don't bother to
look up Berio's birthdate.

>
>
> Boulez has been highly critical of most of the genres that are not derivative
> from serial music (again, I am talking about the period when his power was
> in full action).
>
What is his full power and when was it in action?  Was he more powerful
30 years ago or today?  How in the world can you measure it?  And what
does it matter anyway?  Yes, Boulez has been critical of non serial
music, and guess what, he's also been praiseworthy of it.

> I don't even want to start with how he treated, for a long time, composers of
> his age: Cage (yes, I know, Cage is 13 years older that Boulez), Stockhausen
> (after their "dispute"), Xenakis (who had to fight to keep his music studio
> alive when IRCAM was gobbling down huge resources for the results we know),
> Ligetti, Kagel.
>
From mentioning his "treatment" of Cage, I can assume you've read the
Cage-Boulez correspondence?  Cage had a long, productive career full of
premieres and performances.  His musical path in no way intersected with
nor siphoned interest from Boulez's, and vice-versa.  Again, so what?
Are you saying that his "treatment" of Cage, by which I feel you imply
something harsh, was his not agreeing with Cage's ideas, not wanting to
perform Cage's works?  That is/was Boulez's choice, and it is/was an
absolutely valid one.  Unless down to the great, all-powerful Cage.

IRCAM is government funded, but you make it sound like it was/should
have been Xenakis's own home studio.  What do you mean?  Are you
implying that IRCAM bought equipment so Xenakis couldn't buy it?  The
Xenakis deserved French government funding all for himself and not for
French resources?

Now, Stockhausen.  Again, how did Boulez "treat" him?  I get the feeling
that you have your favorites, and if Boulez disagreed with them, that
makes him a bad man in your eyes.  As if Stockhausen never had a
critical word to say about another composer/musician!  These guys are
allowed to dispute, argue and disagree with each other.  Boulez's power
didn't seem to prevent German Radio and Harmonia Mundi from including
many of his works, and many works by other contemporaries who were
perhaps younger than Boulez, on a ten-volume, four-LP-in-each-volume
collection of contemporary music.  Yep, Kagel was there too.


>
>
> The fact that he has cooled down in that past 20 years does not change what
> he did for a long time. With his fascination for power, he ended up to control
> a large portion of what contemporary music was in France. Some composers
> started seriously to breath when he had to retire from many of his official
> positions; unfortunately, it was already too late for many of them.
>

Have you been reading the Joan Peyser biography?  It sounds like it.
The problem with the biography is that it really has very little to do
about music itself.  But if "power" is the issue, well then, the book is
full of it.  As if it matters.

These composers you're talking about, who are they?  What did Boulez do
to them?  How were they unable to breath?  And what does it mean that it
is too late for many of them?  Too late for what?  Say something that
means something, not this emotional assertions.


> I don't know why he ended up to play Ligetti, but it was certainly not
> for liking his music.
>
Wrong.  Boulez records Ligeti's music, with Ligeti's supervision,
because he likes the music.  Like you say, you don't know why.  If you
don't want to believe me, then keep it at that.  Unless he was hoping
for that elusive platinum selling pop hit?


> I am not sure that I follow you there either. Yes, Boulez put out some
> interesting compositions in the late '40s and '50s. Anything major after
> that? I am not sure. It seems to me that the more unproductive he became
> in the '60s, the more bitter he ended up. Have you ever tried to understand
> why the supposed "greatest modern composer after WWII" stopped composing
> and turned to conducting?
>
Boulez has not stopped composing.  You are totally wrong; there is
nothing to understand.  Next time you're in the record store, go the the
bin and find his recent DG recording of "Explosante-Fixe," a world
premiere recording of a recent work.  And as for important Boulez pieces
from post 1950s, "Eclat," "Rituel," "Pli Selon Pli," "Notations,"  the
above mentioned work.  Like you said, you're not sure.  Leave it at
that; I get the impression that you're not close friends with the man,
so I don't trust your judgement as to how "bitter he ended up."  From
what I can see, he's still going, what with his recording of Mahler 9
released last month.


> I have not stated anything related the the "current" Boulez. I don't care
> how nice he is becoming in his old age.
>
But of course, Patrice, you have mentioned the "current" Boulez, you did
so when you gave your idea of his reasons for recording Zappa.  That's
the current Boulez, not just in my terms, but in yours as well.  This is
the Boulez who "cooled down in the last 20 years."

Look, if you don't like Boulez's work and personality, that's your
taste.  But to claim he is this power hungry figure who ruined composers
lives and who ignored some specious obligation to perform music that
wasn't to his taste, but to yours, is ridiculous.  Your criticism of him
is entirely personal, general, emotional and has nothing of substance in
it about his music and his career.  Instead of at least giving him his
due for recording Zappa's work, you have to put him down, say he was
trying to court some sort of public regard which wouldn't seem likely
for a person you also feel is so power mad.  A lot of what you're
claiming here are myths that I have seen many other places.  Boulez
rubbed some people the wrong way.  So did Charles Ives.  So what?  He's
an extremely important musician who has done a great deal for
contemporary music, whether you like him as a human being or not.


gg









-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: David's incredibly detailed account of befuddlement at Steve's review
Date: 02 May 1998 03:46:21 -0400

David Newgarden wrote:

> Given your intellect and diverse tastes, and with all your analyzing and
> discussing of these 3 Mitchell pieces, I'm surprised that you're so
> baffled by them, and that you're vexed by the brevity of the program
> notes(!?)  It's one thing to not enjoy a concert [snip]

Hmmm, I think something must have gotten lost in the translation, David!  I'm
certain I was clear that I enjoyed the concert (if I hadn't I guarantee I
wouldn't have written about it for the Zornlist or anoyone else), and that in
fact there's no chance I would ever have missed it.  I don't recall writing
anywhere that I dismissed the concert completely, and I'm a bit taken aback
that that's how you read it.

Also, I'm far from unaware of the "other" side of Roscoe's output and have
explored much of it; the particular album of the repertoire in question was
one that I had missed (being from Texas and all), but one of the few.  I
wasn't exactly vexed by the overall lack of program notes, either; it's just
that lacking the identification of what Roscoe was aiming at in "LRG," all I
could go on was the actual sound events that comprised the piece, and those
events did not add up to a satisfying piece of absolute music to this one
listener at that particular time.

I think even given the notes printed on the sleeve of the album, to which you
eventually refer in your own overview of the music, I would have had a better
idea of how best to frame my reactions to "LRG."  Roscoe's "snapshots" analogy
is well suited (your own "slideshow" analogy even more so) to what we heard.
Seen in that light the piece in theory "works" just fine, which still does not
make it in retrospect a pleasurable listening experience for me.

> LRG seemed to me to be a study of timbre, texture, articulation, tension,
> 'flow', 'space' 'sound'  [snip]  Stripped of melody, harmony, rhythm,
> tempo, polyphony  (or 'ensemble work' as you put it), the music's like a
> magnifying glass or an x-ray isolating particular musical aspects.

A very illuminating description, which I can understand and appreciate.  (You
always were an outstanding reviewer at CMJ!)  I wish I'd felt as positively
about the music of "LRG" as you but there's not a lot I can do about that.
But you provided the reasoned rebuttal I'd hoped for.

> I can dig your comparison to Tony Conrad, focusing on the texture of
> Conrad's
> violin bowing...

No, no... I only compared "S II Examples" to Conrad (and Feldman), both for
the emphasis on texture and for the smeared, slurred, indeterminite tonalities
and near-constant legato phrasing.  "LRG" didn't remind me of Conrad at all.

> I would think of very different comparisons to ballpark it  -- How about:
> Giancinto Scelsi solo instrument compositions
> Braxton For Alto Saxophone
> Zorn  Classic Guide To Strategy
> solo Derek Bailey

Now these I can see as analogous in a variety of ways to the "LRG"
experience.  It also opens up a whole 'nuther can of worms... the nature of
the true relationship between improvisation and composition.  In each of the
examples you cite - all music I know and admire - there is virtually no
audible difference between the music identified as being in one or the other
category.  The arrival of aleatoric music and extended technique in modern
composition rendered the two performance practices indistinguishable at
times.  A piece by any number of modern composers can either be structured so
loosely and so open to interpretation as to sound like an improvisation each
and every time it is played, or so rigorously and with such technical detail
that it may sound like improvisation but can be more or less exactly
duplicated by any performer with the requisite skills.

Perhaps the only consistent element in composition from ancient times to the
present is the presence of some form of physically stated preconception as to
what the piece is intended to be prior to the moment in which it is being
played and heard, whether we are talking about notes on staves, elaborately
rendered pictographic diagrams or Braxton's "You must become the dog."  To
varying degrees the Scelsi, Zorn and Braxton examples you cite all fit this
description.

And then there is the completely free improviser such as Derek Bailey.  I
would posit that Bailey is every bit as much a composer as "fill-in-the-blank"
- the difference being he does not preconceive his works and does not write
them down for posterity and future performance.  Those things aside, I think
Bailey places each and every note with care and precision - his music contains
a certain inevitability that I find very compelling.  (Which is certainly not
to preclude the possibility that Bailey's pieces as recorded could not be
physically transcribed and duplicated by a guitarist with the patience, skill
and craft to transcribe them from recordings, developing along the way a
notation that I suspect might look rather like "Book of Heads" by the time it
was done.)

I confess that it represents a shortcoming in my openmindedness, but I freely
admit, as a veteran of hours and hours of new music both composed and
improvised, that any knowledge of what Mitchell intended to communicate in the
composition "LRG" would have had an effect on the way I heard the music.  The
simple words "photo snapshots" (from the Mitchell notes you quote later in
your message) convey volumes.  Lacking that, I could only hear the piece with
a completely open mind -- and it was in precisely that mindset that I found
"LRG" an unsuccessful totality.

The beauty of aesthetic judgments, however, is that there are simply no
absolutes.  I *am* right about how I heard "LRG," and so *are* you.  *We* will
both agree that Roscoe Mitchell's lifework is more important than James
Horner's, yet 250 thousand people a week have outvoted both of us with their
wallets since December.  You and I see eye to eye on a great number of things
but not absolutely everything.  Would any of us want to be on a list, or a
planet, where there was complete agreement?

> I think it's very sad that you and your friends
> equate 'cerebral' with 'dislike.'

May lightning strike me if I ever in my life do this!  Remember, I'm the one
whose favorite *rock* band is King Crimson! :-)  I do think, however, that
"LRG" is not music given to naturally cause a visceral or emotional response,
and therefore cerebral (as in "we were all scratching our heads...") seemed to
be not a dig but an accurate description.  We were wondering what was going on
up there, to put it simply.

> It seems to me that your need to judge
> the piece on your specifications of 'pure music' (not to mention your
> expectations of what Leo Smith should do) is reactionary and 'moldy
> fig-ish'...

In the sense in which I used it, "pure music" does not amount to a graphic
breakdown and analysis of the music's structure -- much the opposite, in
fact.  Rather, it is the notion of hearing a piece with absolutely no
preconceived notion of what it is meant to be.  In the days of the Romantic
composers "program music" was that music which required you to know the story
or idea represented by the music in order to "understand" the piece - think
Tchaikovsky's "Romeo and Juliet" or Lizst's "Les Preludes."  Yet without
knowing the storylines these pieces are quite lovely and acceptable as simply
musical compositions.

Similarly, the level of organization of notes in the typical composition of
Webern or Xenakis, to name two examples, is extraordinary, and frequently such
composers need the listener to know just what processes went into the writing
of the music to "fully" convey the depth of the piece.  Yet I find the average
Webern piece to be a beguiling and perfect little sonic gem without ever once
wanting to ponder its serial rigors, and with Xenakis I find I have a visceral
response to the sheer violence and power of the music without having to know
the mathematical schemata behind the piece's processes.

To have had a clue as to what was intended in "LRG" would have meant a better
grasp of what was unfolding before my ears.  Lacking that, all I had was the
sounds the performers were playing, and on the basis of that alone, the only
musician whose efforts I enjoyed were Lewis's.  To have found only a portion
of the piece in any way satisfying despite (or perhaps because of) all the
years of music I have absorbed and assimilated, I was left with but one
option: to state that I didn't like the piece.

But you must understand: if I call a piece unsuccessful, it is what I alone
believe.  Even if several others chimed in with agreement (and I surely
expected and even expressed a wish for rebuttals) I would never hold my
opinion to be universal truth.  Critics on whatever level and in whatever
medium, from internet mailing lists to the New York Times, perform a valuable
and necessary function in the arts world, that of fostering thought and
debate, but that hardly means that they/we/whoever speak universal truths.

Your "moldy fig" analogy is faulty in that I didn't express what the music
"should have been," as the moldy figs demanded that bop was unsuccessful
because it wasn't swing (to make things simple).  If I'd demanded that it be
an Art Ensemble set and declared it unsuccessful on the grounds that it was
not an Art Ensemble set then you'd be correct.  But again, I think you wrote
this under the impression that I didn't know of Mitchell's work outside the
Art Ensemble.

> It's pretty amusing (and a feather in Mitchell's cap) for a confused
> audience member to walk out muttering at him in 1998... It makes me
> chuckle that you find this guy noteworthy and that a (sympathetic) nitwit
> in the audience yelled 'Shut Up! ' about 10 times louder than the
> mutterer. (Mitchell's liner notes to the live Noonah album includes an
> amazing description of his 'battle' with the audience). Did you, too, ask
> for your money back?

David, this paragraph, more than anything, makes me concerned that you misread
my original posting or only saw fragments of it cited in the replies of
others.  I found the "protester" noteworthy for precisely the same reason you
did, no more, no less.  And to suggest that I might have wanted my money back
after reading what I actually wrote is frankly preposterous, but let me state
it again very clearly:  I disliked "LRG," I liked the remaining three pieces
(including the final collage which included "LRG") very much, I felt grandly
honored to be in attendance at such an extraordinary musical event, and had I
paid five times as much for my ticket I would still have been quite happy with
the sum total of the experience.  If you surmised anything other than that
then I am a shitty journalist.

> If you require some legit critical nudging, I'll recommend checking out
> John Litweiler (The Freedom Principle: Jazz After 1958)

This book for me was grad school, master's degree level, between two covers.
I've read it roughly every two years since around 1986.  For all free jazz
novices there is no better companion than this book.  (Doctoral candidates
will proceed from there to Ekkehard Jost's "Free Jazz" and John Corbett's
"Extended Play.")

> Litweiler has a lot to say about Mitchell
> and devotes two pages to these specific pieces (much more enthusiastically
> and eloquently than me). Here are a couple of excerpts:
>
> "While the twentieth century is the era of percussion compositions, from
> Varese to Stockhausen and Wuorinen, they all seem naive tours de force
> next to the immense skill and finesse of The Maze...  a startling
> composition...The Maze is a rich chiaroscuro of clearly defined, mobile
> wood and metal textures, with a great elegance of detail.

"The Maze" was a marvelous composition, as I stated, but "Ionisation" is no
naive tour-de-force.  I agree with Litweiler's sentiment regarding "The Maze"
but also find it unfortunate in the extreme that he has to praise it by
damning its European predecessors.  Smells like liner notes...  Furthermore,
it's apples and oranges... I doubt Varese ever anticipated writing for a
facepainted musician improvising on a pair of crutches.

> L-R-G is an existentialist statement, a condition of life, a state of
> being; it is Mitchell's most intimate revelation."

Wishy washy, namby pamby, the kind of prose usually ascribed to "apologists."
It's liner note puffery, that's all.  It says nothing substantive, and poetic
language can't hide that.  Your own few lines of description told me more
about the music of "LRG" than this little quasi-haiku did.

David, I really think you must have misread what I posted.  Let me know if you
want me to send it again (it's one of the few reviews I've ever posted that
I've felt compelled to save a copy of), and by all means, for the sake of the
others on the list, let's take this to private e-mail if there's anything left
to debate.

Steve Smith
[e-mail]





-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Scott Handley" <[e-mail]>
Subject: CDs anyone? also: Sonic Youth/Milford Graves  and: Masada
Date: 02 May 1998 13:55:07 PDT

This was mentioned not too long ago, but WHEN and WHERE are the
Youth/Graves shows going to be?

And the last I heard, the prospects for the masada box coming out this
year were pretty good.  Anyone know the news on this?

The below might be considered SPAM, and for that I'm sorry, but this is
semi-urgent.  Go no further if you do not wish to see what I'm
moving.....


*********************************************************

I have CDs for sale.  All prices inc. shipping.  E.mail me.
Miles Davis Quintet, each $7, whole set $30, all condition very good
NEFERTITI
ESP
SORCERER
FILLES DE KILIMANJARO
MILES SMILES

Ornette Coleman: BEAUTY IS A RARE THING, 6 CD box, very good cond.,
      some writing on bottom of box; $54

Tribe called Quest: MIDNIGHT MARAUDERS; $7, very good

Peter Brotzmann / Hamid Drake / Mahmoud Gania : The WELS Concert
      mint cond., 70 min, $12

Loren Mazzacane Connors: CALLODEN HARVEST,  solo elec guitar, '97
      cracked case, but not bad; $6

FUSHITSUSHA: Double live (PSF 15/16) 2cds, barely played, mint, $31

I would need a check by this Thursday.  The goods would go out Friday.
No bull.  Excellent deal if you buy the entire lot (plus I'll throw in
Masada's ALEF or Azonic's HALO for an additional $4).





______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Caleb Deupree)
Subject: Re: Books (was David's incredibly ...)
Date: 03 May 1998 11:32:59 -0400

At 03:46 AM 5/2/98 -0400, Steve Smith wrote:
>
>> If you require some legit critical nudging, I'll recommend checking out
>> John Litweiler (The Freedom Principle: Jazz After 1958)
>
>This book for me was grad school, master's degree level, between two covers.
>I've read it roughly every two years since around 1986.  For all free jazz
>novices there is no better companion than this book.  (Doctoral candidates
>will proceed from there to Ekkehard Jost's "Free Jazz" and John Corbett's
>"Extended Play.")

I'm always interested in books which discuss interesting contemporary
music, and I've already requested these at our local library.  I'd like to
know if there are other books which might also be pertinent to jazz or
other varieties.  In particular, I've been seeing a lot of references to
Jacques Attali's book _Noise: _The_Political_Economy_of_Music_, and I'd be
interested in some opinions on this, if there are any.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: ROLAND JOST <[e-mail]>
Subject: john zorn's attitude
Date: 03 May 1998 12:12:05 -0400

>Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 13:55:40 -0400
>From: Glenn Lea <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Masada Snit

> =

>
>> For what we pay for his
>> >CDs, and how many of them I'm sure a great deal of us own....its real=
ly
>> >starting to make me wonder..

>Oh please.  You buy a CD, you have the CD.  End of transaction.  Buy man=
y,
you
>have many.    Ditto.  No artist "owes" you anything further.  =


first of all, i'm not in the u.s. of a. - so getting a freebie is out of
the question for me.
however, you're right, no artist "owes" us anything. *and* i don't owe
anything to any artist.
john zorn (who's releasing albums at a rate of about 100 new ones a week)=

would be
well advised to remember who's bread he eats.

i mean, i do religiously buy every album that mr. zorn releases. never
faltering once.
the least i (or in this case, his fans in the u.s. of a.) can expect, is
not being treated
like shit by mr. zorn. i've seen a few of his gigs and one (about the onl=
y
one for that
matter) thing that is getting on my nerves with him, is his punk attitude=

(i like punk,
just not from mr. zorn). i've seen him screaming at the audience, trying =
to
kick
journalists etc. (o.k. if it were the sex pistols - they're a tired old
bunch of farts anyway).

i will buy john zorn's albums in future as well, but even my patience is
ending one
day, be it from the sheer mass of albums he releases (and i ought to buy)=

or from the
way he's behaving himself towards us (his fans). mr. zorn, there's lots a=
nd
loads of
good music out there and other artists would like to get your share of th=
e
sales.

cheers
roland

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dora Agiotis <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Victo festival
Date: 03 May 1998 13:40:59 -0400



I am going to the Victoriaville Festival as well.  I live near it too, so it won't be hard getting there.  Yeah, I think the Zorn/Patton?Mori show
will be very interesting.  I can't wait.
hope to see you there.
Dora Agiotis


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Nastifyer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Tim Berne
Date: 03 May 1998 14:44:34 EDT

Hello, I will be seeing Tim Berne's Paraphrase tonight at chief Ike's Mambo
Room here in Washington D.C. I'm a big fan of both his playing and his
compositional work, however I haven't bought anything of his since he was
dropped by JMT. I figure he'll be selling some of his new screwgun stuff at
the concert and I was wondering if anybody had any recommendations. I would
buy it all if I had the money, but my funds are limited. One of the things
that most attracts me to Berne's work, aside from the excellent music, is the
recording quality of his releases. From the CIMP discussion I've gathered that
because many of his recordings are done live, he has moved away from the close
miking techniques that were used on his earlier recordings. I'm thinking
specifically of Joe Ferla's excellent engineering and recording on Nice View.
Does anyone know what techniques are used for the live recordings. The last
three Bloodcounts on JMT, which I own all sound excellent, so I guess what I'm
asking is do the screwgun recordings sound as great as his older stuff.
                    Eric Gordon

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Artur Nowak" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Recent CDs - Ground Zero
Date: 03 May 1998 21:07:49 +0200

I have to thank the guy, who recommended Ground Zero "Plays Standars" CD. Sorry
for forgetting your name, I will bless you to the end of my life for this
recommendation.
The CD cost $20, but I could spend lots more for this kind of music. I was
amazed from the first time I've heard this album: power, power, power, and -
what is most important - it's played with true, fresh involvement of the
musicians. You can hear that they give everything they can. Even comparing with
over-intellectualized Naked City, Ground Zero is phenomenal, because they play
with vigor, drive, punch, vitality, ardor and zip (add as many synonyms from
thesaurus, as you can).
BTW: can anybody who knows other Otomo activities recommend other works, similar
to "Plays Standars"? The tracks I like most are these less-experimental, rocking
ones (yeah, Ground Zero rocks!)
And: thanks to Alan E. Kayser and his friend Craig - they know what for.

Other highlight is obvious: John Zorn "Circle Maker". Marvelous album, more
oriental then last klezmeric (klezmatic?) records, a classic. PhiloZorners, be
prepared for invarions of profanes, who will go crazy after listening to this
album, and spam this list with questions like "I love _Circle Maker_, what sould
I listen to next?".

OK, no added value in this message, just excitement, I'm gone...

Artur (who loves to be member of this list, just to know, what to buy next...)

       ____________________________________________________________________
       Artur Nowak
       www.silesia.top.pl/~arno/emd/pl40/artists/f/frisell_bill/default.htm




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Benjamin Pequet <[e-mail]>
Subject: Sharp/Steiner
Date: 03 May 1998 23:36:07 +0200

Hi. How come I feel like it's not spoken of Elliot Sharp over here ?
Actually I've been on this list for a few weeks only but his name didn't
appear once.
Is there a separate E# list ?
He was playing last thursday in Brussels, a show I only heard of by chance,
very obscurely announced, with the cellist Frances-Marie Uitti. They seemed
to be promoting a cd of improvisations recorded in Amsterdam and Bern a few
months ago.
Uitti was perfect.

The Sharp was drowning under his machinery, obsessed with it, lost in it,
litterally subject to it - not in control of his technique. Postmodern, the
machine he launched has become friable. Actually the picture was one of a
man trying to figure out how to make things work (how to get what he wanted
from the machine and what would come out of the machine) but not concentrated.
I did not go to him during the breaks and ask what technical stuff he was
using - merely delaying stuff and according to me sampling and
transformations, playing back of his sound or of Uitti's - in loops or
transformed into kind of percussion sounds.

But what an interesting forehead he has, such interesting lines, a
landscape... Standing there motionless, manipulating his computer from a
control attached to his guitar - the music seemed to come and be shaped
directly from his thinking. Some awkward maybe-fractal patterns of a drum
machine, that's what it sounded like at times.
Sharp finally seemed to be experimenting his machinery more than his music,
somehow trying to catch up with the development of his work.
Is a staff working for him building new machines, samplers and stuff ?

Well these visions are just lines that crossed my mind. To be continued...

I am just manifesting my presence here and curious - any reflection, any
hint from one of you about what was going on and what is going with Sharp ?
Or related reflections or experiences ? Sources ?

Hey. Something else has been burning me for some time now. I've been
wondering if there is somewhere a connection to be found between any of the
topics we are dealing with here and Anthroposophy - or Theosophy. If any of
you has the slightest or a peculiar indication in that sense, can he or she
please email me ? Anyone involved with these ideas in some way ?

Cheers.
Benjamin


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Books (was David's incredibly ...)
Date: 03 May 1998 18:36:10 -0400 (EDT)

Val Wilmer's "As Serious As Your Life" is a must read. Francis Davis'
"Outcats" and "Bebop and Nothingness" are well-written with good profiles.
And John Szwed's "Space Is The Place" is *the* book on Sun Ra.

Ken Waxman
[e-mail]

P.S. If only someone would have the time, knowledge and (probably) a
grant to write a history of "free" music since 1975, that book would be
an answer to many people's fondest wishes.








On Sun, 3 May 1998, Caleb Deupree wrote:

> At 03:46 AM 5/2/98 -0400, Steve Smith wrote:
> >
> >> If you require some legit critical nudging, I'll recommend checking out
> >> John Litweiler (The Freedom Principle: Jazz After 1958)
> >
> >This book for me was grad school, master's degree level, between two covers.
> >I've read it roughly every two years since around 1986.  For all free jazz
> >novices there is no better companion than this book.  (Doctoral candidates
> >will proceed from there to Ekkehard Jost's "Free Jazz" and John Corbett's
> >"Extended Play.")
>
> I'm always interested in books which discuss interesting contemporary
> music, and I've already requested these at our local library.  I'd like to
> know if there are other books which might also be pertinent to jazz or
> other varieties.  In particular, I've been seeing a lot of references to
> Jacques Attali's book _Noise: _The_Political_Economy_of_Music_, and I'd be
> interested in some opinions on this, if there are any.
>
> -
>
>

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Tim Berne
Date: 03 May 1998 18:48:10 -0400 (EDT)

The Bloodcount single CD and the Paraphrase CD are both great, but in
different ways. Once you see Tom Rainey tonight, you'll see how a new drummer
 has entered the pantheon and want some of his work to take home.

Ken Waxman
[e-mail]






On Sun, 3 May 1998, Nastifyer wrote:

> Hello, I will be seeing Tim Berne's Paraphrase tonight at chief Ike's Mambo
> Room here in Washington D.C. I'm a big fan of both his playing and his
> compositional work, however I haven't bought anything of his since he was
> dropped by JMT. I figure he'll be selling some of his new screwgun stuff at
> the concert and I was wondering if anybody had any recommendations. I would
> buy it all if I had the money, but my funds are limited. One of the things
> that most attracts me to Berne's work, aside from the excellent music, is the
> recording quality of his releases. From the CIMP discussion I've gathered that
> because many of his recordings are done live, he has moved away from the close
> miking techniques that were used on his earlier recordings. I'm thinking
> specifically of Joe Ferla's excellent engineering and recording on Nice View.
> Does anyone know what techniques are used for the live recordings. The last
> three Bloodcounts on JMT, which I own all sound excellent, so I guess what I'm
> asking is do the screwgun recordings sound as great as his older stuff.
>                     Eric Gordon
>
> -
>
>

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: SUGAR in their vitamins? <[e-mail]>
Subject: clusone trio
Date: 03 May 1998 17:25:15 -0700 (PDT)


the Clusone Trio will be playing
at Beanbenders 19 May.
i would very much like to host
them for a live-mic on KFJC, or
even just Han Bennink, if at all
possible. if there is someone
here who could help make this
possible, please contact me off-list.
too, i want to set up live-mics
with "thislisty" musicians.
for example, Dave Douglas was in
town recently and unfortunately
we couldn't get it arranged in time,
but it would have been splendid.
this offer is extended to local
SF Bay Area artists as well.

thanks!

hasta.

Yes.  Beautiful, wonderful nature.  Hear it sing to us: *snap*  Yes.  natURE.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Books (was David's incredibly ...)
Date: 03 May 1998 22:52:34 -0400

On Sun, 3 May 1998, Caleb Deupree (or was it Steve Smith?) wrote:

> This book for me was grad school, master's degree level, between two covers.
> I've read it roughly every two years since around 1986.  For all free jazz
> novices there is no better companion than this book.  (Doctoral candidates
> will proceed from there to Ekkehard Jost's "Free Jazz" and John Corbett's
> "Extended Play.")

I just picked up the Corbett, based on this high recommendation, as well
as Graham Lock's "Chasing the Vibration" (I already have his "Forces in
Motion" and am rereading his "Mixtery"). The Jost book is quite good --
its discussion of Cecil Taylor in particular has kicked some of my own
composing into new directions (strangely, I get more musical ideas from
reading about music than from hearing it...). Had I actually caught the
Anthony Braxton performance at the Library of Congress Friday night
rather than being stranded on the Beltway with a dead alternator for
three hours, my mind would no doubt be spinning in yet other directions!
--
---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Christopher Hamilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Books (was David's incredibly ...)
Date: 04 May 1998 00:08:20 -0400 (EDT)



On Sun, 3 May 1998, Caleb Deupree wrote:

> I'm always interested in books which discuss interesting contemporary
> music, and I've already requested these at our local library.  I'd like to
> know if there are other books which might also be pertinent to jazz or
> other varieties.

Amiri Baraka has at least three books of interest to fans of
African-American free jazz.  _Blues People_ is a seminal work on the
relation of music to the African-American experience written around
the time free jazz was first emerging into the light of publicity;
it doesn't focus on the new music, but it's there as a subtext, and
the book arguably influenced a number of jazz avant-gardists.  _Black
Music_, recently reprinted by Da Capo, collects articles from the early to
mid-60's, and is nice as a blow-by-blow account of the New York energy
scene of the day as it was actually happening, written by someone closely
involved with the scene.  _The Music_, published in the 80's, is another
collection, including both journalism and poetry (and also, if memory
serves, including work by Baraka's wife, Amini).  Baraka's critical
listening is, in my opinion, sometimes obscured by ideological blinders,
but he's usually thought-provoking, and nearly always a brilliant prose
stylist.

Chris Hamilton


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Zorn-related news from new ICE column
Date: 04 May 1998 00:12:35 -0400

Hey all -

The May issue of ICE Magazine marks the debut of a most welcome new
feature, "Independents Day," a new column by the quite knowledgeable
David Sprague.  The column focuses on new and upcoming releases from
indie labels and largely alternative musics, from Ui and Firewater to
Diamanda Galas and Don Caballero (a new album in June, in case you're
wondering).  For the present collected audience I'd like to mention the
following goodies from the column, all due for June 16 release:

Fred Frith: Pacifica (Avant) - described as a solo guitar album
Derek Bailey and Min Xiao-Fen: Viper (Avant)
Ruins: Symphonic Ruins (Tzadik)
Norman Yamada: Being and Time (Tzadik)
Phillip Johnston: Film Music (Tzadik)
David Weinstein: Perfume (Tzadik)
and a resolicitation of John Oswald's "Plexure" on Avant

Word!
Steve Smith
[e-mail]


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Christopher Hamilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Roof
Date: 04 May 1998 00:22:48 -0400 (EDT)



On Thu, 30 Apr 1998, Tom Pratt wrote:

> Luc Ex (bass - I'm not
> familiar with him),

Sorry if I'm duplicating information.  This is the bassist in the fine
Dutch punk rock band the Ex, who have collaborated with Tom Cora
(_Scrabbling at the Lock_, _And the Weathermen Shrug Their Shoulders_) and
Han Bennink (I forget the title), as well as releasing a 2-CD set of free
improv called _Instant_ with guests like Bennink, Michael Vatcher, and
Tristan Honsinger.  Go for the Cora collaborations if you're interested in
following up on this.

Chris Hamilton


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Scott Handley" <[e-mail]>
Subject: books/zines/and turntables
Date: 03 May 1998 21:30:03 PDT

I found the William Duckworth book of interviews, read the Zorn
interview (about a year ago), and stuck around for the other stuff.  I
found it to be really interesting.  Ya'll might like it too.  Robin
Maconie's book THE MUSIC OF KARLHEINZ STOCKHAUSEN is excellent, and
fantastic for Stockhausen newbies, like me (I only have the couple
things on HatArt).  Maconie's STOCKHAUSEN ON MUSIC I found not as
interesting (and that's the one I BOUGHT...)

Also, as far as reading is concerned, I thought some of you might be
interested in the following (most of which I haven't even seen):

*********************
      John Zorn: "JZ at the Knitting Factory Fest 1993"  program from
      the
        month long festival

      Musica Jazz (Italy) magazine with CD from the Verona Jazz fest.
      w/ Bill Dixon,
      Andrew Hill, Ornette's Skies of America excerpt, John Zorn,
      Butch Morris ens.
      and more.

      Eugene Chadbourne: Bye Bye DDR (Ridgeway Press) Dr. Chad's diary
      of his
      Eastern Bloc tours and how things changed after the wall came
      down.

      Andrew Jones: Plunderphonics, 'Pataphysics + Pop Mechanics"
        articles about Cutler, Frith, Goebbles, Threadgill, ROVA, Amy
      Denio, Oswald,
      Zorn, FAT, Residents and more more more

      Edwin Prevost: No Sound Is Innocent
        AMM drummer Prevost's first book looks at the "meta-music" of
      AMM as well as
      the meaning of sound itself in aesthetic, social and political
      contexts.
      Essential!

      v/a: CRAYON: Festschrift for Jackson MacLow's 75th Birthday:
        Nice book of new and old writings for the master MacLow plus a
      _great CD_
      that includes performances by Jim Staley, Ikue Mori, Davey
      Williams, Splatter
      Trio, Gerry Hemingway, Malcolm Goldstein, Gordon Mumma, Alvin
      Curran, David
      Behrman, and many more.

      Something Else!!!! (zine w/ cassette)
         The only issue of a zine that explores improvised music as
      "Punk without
      the Rock". Interviews w/ Evan Parker, Barry Guy, Marilyn
      Crispell, Dan
      Plonsey, Joe Baiza, Gino Robair, etc. as well as unreleased
      recordings from
      them (ie: Parker/Guy/Lytton Trio at Beanbenders in '95). A
      little naive in its
      outlook, but it's a zine, right?

*****************************

I got this list off an e.mailed import catalog provided by an online
label.  I erased the prices because then I guess it would be SPAM.  But
thought ya'll would want to see the above....

How is the Jones PLUNDERPHONICS book?

And speaking of John Corbett, for those not on the chi-improv listserv,
check out the below, courtesy of Mr. Seth Tisue's infamous CHICAGO NOW
calendar:
***************************
Late breaking news:

         Mon 5/4/98 6:00 Film Center
         Experimental
         "Turntable Roundtable": solo performances and interviews
      (John
         Corbett, moderator) with turntablists Christian Marclay, John
      Oswald,
         DJ Tone B Nimble, Bobby Hill, Lou Malozzi
****************************

I wish i didn't live in hell.

Thanks everyone, for the suggestions.

Scott

P.S.  Could anyone who got the Miles Quintet 1964-8 Box tell me about
how much unreleased music one gets?  I'm thinking about reinvesting, and
I never got WATER BABIES or MILES IN THE SKY.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Warsaw Summer Jazz Days '98
Date: 04 May 1998 09:51:38 +0200

Here is the programm of Warsaw Summer Jazz Days '98:

18.06 - Polish Day: Stanko - Litania (Stanko septet plays music of
Krzysztof Komeda);
Barcik; Pieronczyk Quartet; Konikiewicz

19.06 - James Blood Ulmer; Jonas Hellborg Trio; Allan Holdsworth Quartet

20.06 - Ronald Shannon Jackson; James Carter; Ekstasis (B.Laswell,
A.Dieng, Nicky Skopelitis etc.)

21.06 - Grassy Knoll; Vernon Reid; Wynton Marsalis

Tickets will be available very soon.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Yves Dewulf <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Roof
Date: 04 May 1998 10:08:35 +0200


For all those living in/near Belgium:

The Roof-concert at the Vooruit (Ghent,May 9th) will be replaced by
a tribute to Tom Cora.

Musicians will include:
Roof (Luc Ex,Michael Vatcher,Phil Minton), Tom's wife :Catherine
Jauniaux, Zeena Parkins and Fred Frith

This concert is part of the Vooruit-music festival, more information
can be found on:
http://www.vooruit.be  (only in Dutch)

YVes


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: avant CDs for sale
Date: 04 May 1998 09:42:10 -0400 (EDT)

I have the following Avant CDs for sale:
AVAN 003, 006, 007, 008, 010, 012, 013, 033
They are all in excellent condition, with a couple that are still sealed.  If anyone could point me to a better forum for selling these, I'd appreciate it, and I apologize for any bother I have caused my fellow list-members.  thanks.



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Caleb Deupree)
Subject: Re: books/zines/and turntables
Date: 04 May 1998 09:55:51 -0400

>>>>> "Scott" == Scott Handley <[e-mail]> writes:

    Scott> How is the Jones PLUNDERPHONICS book?

Anecdotal, a compilation of a bunch of interviews and short articles
which originally appeared in various magazines (like Option, if I
remember correctly).  It's interesting because there are so few
interviews and information about most of the people he discusses, but
the chapters tend to concentrate more on the people and less on the
music.  I enjoyed the book, but it's a very quick read and left me
hungry for more.

There's a longer and more negative review of this at
http://www.panix.com/userdirs/zampino/ReR/Glandien.Kersten.PPP.html.
---
Caleb T. Deupree
;; Opinions are not necessarily shared by management

Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers.
(Pablo Picasso)


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Perfect Sound Forever <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Recent CDs - Ground Zero
Date: 04 May 1998 10:18:53 -0400

Otomo is amazing.  PLAYS STANDARDS is great and I'd also recommend Ground Zero's Tzadik release.  He's going to be in town for a few gigs here in NYC this week.

     May 8th at the Cooler
     May 9th at Fakeshop
     May 10th at the Knitting Factory (Alterknit)

Check out this site for more details:  http://www2.gol.com/users/miyuki/yotomo/yotomo.html

BTW, someone didn't care for the Plunderphonic book (Jones) but I thought I was much more substantial and well-written than Extended Play (I thought the subject matter was more interesting than a lot of the writing itself).

Jason

--
Perfect Sound Forever
online music magazine
[e-mail]
http://www.furious.com/perfect



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: more on the Avant CDs for sale
Date: 04 May 1998 10:34:41 -0400 (EDT)

http://www.acns.nwu.edu/wnur/jazz/artists/zorn.john/discog.html#avant_catalog

03 - RADIO: Naked City (1993 - Avant, Avant 003 (CD))

06 - DNA LAST LIVE AT CBGB: DNA (1993 - Avant, Avan 006 (CD))

07 - BUCKETHEADLAND: Buckethead (1992, Avant, Avan 007 (2xCD))

08 - ALLEGORICAL MISUNDERSTANDING: Fushitsusha (1993, Avant, Avan 008 (CD))

10 - CYCLOTRON: Blind Idiot God (1992 - Avant, Avan 010 (CD))

12 - NANA + VICTORIO: Peter Garland (1992 - Avant, Avan 012 (CD))

13 - SHOCK CORRIDOR: David Shea (1992 - Avant, Avan 013 (CD))

33 - SHREK: Marc Ribot (1994 - Avant, Avan 033 (CD))




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Stefan Verstraeten <[e-mail]>
Subject: information concerning elliot sharp
Date: 04 May 1998 16:57:46 +0200

Dear Zornheads,

Someone on the list (also someone from Belgium, you know the country of
Marc Dutroux and chocolate) asked for information concerning Elliot
Sharp......
For those interested in elliot sharp:

check out his official website:
www.algonet.se/~repple/esharp/es.html

It is possible to subscribe to a newsletter, but there seems to be no
discussion list that deals with elliot sharp.

A shame though, because the (recently released) album 'Timebomb (Live at
the clocktower gallery)' contains an improvised song by elliot sharp and
john zorn (about 10 min. and sheer beautiful noise)
But I'm afraid that this album is not well-known. People seem to prefer
albums like 'weird little boy' (i call it crap, others call it
avant-art) instead of albums like this one...

ELLIOT SHARP RULES..........................
(allmighty steve smith, please support this sentence with lots of
information that you have.....)
--
Stefan Verstraeten
Belgium (Europe)
[e-mail]

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Eric Saidel <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: clusone trio
Date: 04 May 1998 11:58:37 -0500



SUGAR in their vitamins? wrote:

> the Clusone Trio will be playing
> at Beanbenders 19 May.

Anyone know anything about their tour?  They're playing in Chicago on the 12th (I
think); other than that I know nothing about their stops.  I'll do whatever I can
to see them.

thanks,
- eric


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: JonAbbey2 <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: clusone trio
Date: 04 May 1998 13:16:44 EDT


In a message dated 5/4/98 1:07:03 PM, [e-mail] wrote:

<<Anyone know anything about their tour?  They're playing in Chicago on the
12th (I think); other than that I know nothing about their stops.>>

They're playing the Knitting Factory in NYC on May 13, and they're playing
Victoriaville on May 15.

Jon


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Aaron Hertzmann <[e-mail]>
Subject: Sign at Knitting Factory
Date: 04 May 1998 13:31:08 -0400 (EDT)

On the door to the Main Space at the Knitting Factory on Sunday night,
there was a note to the performers, asking for permission to broadcast the
show on the web, noting all the benefits (spread the word, push the
envelope of technology, or something like that), noting the AM
radio-quality of the shows.  Signed "MD".

The Hasidic New Wave played a cover of "California Uber Alles," called
"Giuliani Uber Alles."  I wish that group would be more David Fiuczinsky
and less Greg Wall.

Aaron


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jesse Simon <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn-related news from new ICE column
Date: 04 May 1998 12:18:43

>Ruins: Symphonic Ruins (Tzadik)

I shudder to think. The first thing that comes to mind is "The London
Symphony Orchestra plays Pink Floyd", or other similarly bad ideas. I'm
hoping this is something different.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Kelley Kirkpatrick <[e-mail]>
Subject: Clusone tour
Date: 04 May 1998 11:20:07 -0700

I received the following itinerary from Michael Moore last
week, but I've heard a rumor that the Arcata  date may have
been
canceled-- I'd check with venues before showing up!

"the itinerary is as follows:
9 May/Pittsburgh,
10 Chicago,
11 Ann Arbor,
12/13 New York,
14 Boston,
15 Victoriaville,
16 Buffalo,
17 L.A./Jazz Bakery,
18 Santa Cruz/Kuumba,
19 Berkeley/Yoshi's,
20 Arcata!,
21 Seattle,
22 Vancouver;
then we have to go to England."



Kelley Kirkpatrick


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: JonAbbey2 <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re:  Clusone tour
Date: 04 May 1998 14:30:08 EDT


In a message dated 5/4/98 2:15:15 PM, [e-mail] wrote:

<<"the itinerary is as follows:
9 May/Pittsburgh,
10 Chicago,
11 Ann Arbor,
12/13 New York,>>

Anyone know where in NYC the concert on the 12th is?

Jon

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Scott Handley" <[e-mail]>
Subject: ground zero plays standards --question
Date: 04 May 1998 15:38:22 PDT

I don't have the disc in front of me, but track 9, with the
double-thrash drums and Jan Garbarek soprano arcing over the top--who is
the original composer(s)/performer(s), and what are they like, and are
there interesting recording by them, and where can they be found?

I love that track.

Also, somebody please e.mail me offlist and remind me what Yoshihide/Bob
Ostertag TWINS and Yoshihide/John Rose ??? are like (both on
Creativeman, Japan).  I seem to recall talk about these, several weeks
back.

Thanks everyone.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tag Yr It <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Ground Zero Plays Standards
Date: 04 May 1998 18:58:41 EDT

...and since we're on this subject, could someone please email me the label
and number of this CD? I've been trying to order it here in Cleveland, and no
one seems to have a clue...

Thanks,

Dale.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Uncle Meat <[e-mail]>
Subject: New look/1973
Date: 04 May 1998 19:54:35 -0400

Tzadik has a brand new look ... but there is still no info on that
collectors corner...

By the way, did any of you get the "first recordings 1973" cd.  Is it
good?  I think i've never seen anybody write about it (at least in the
last 6 months) here.

Uncle Meat


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Uncle Meat <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Recent CDs - Ground Zero
Date: 04 May 1998 20:13:48 -0400

Here is the complete info on Plays Standards
GROUND ZERO      PLAYS STANDARDS   1CD  NANI        NCD 201

                                                    Uncle Meat


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Boulez
Date: 04 May 1998 18:25:05 -0700


On Sat, 02 May 1998 08:11:41 -0800  George Grella wrote:
>
> Patrice L. Roussel writes:
>
> > I was just giving my perception of what happened in France. You
> > know, what you learn and feel when things are happening in front of your
> > eyes or from the mouth of other artists who were not moving in the alleys
> > of power. I guess I should read more about how Boulez is interpreted
> > these days, instead of trusting what I saw and heard when it was happe-
> > ning.
>
> I know that Boulez has a personality that has rubbed a lot of people the
> wrong way, but to complain about his character and/or personal
> motivations is just to indulge in gossip.  And attacking him because his
            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
And I guess seeing him as you see him is OK, right?

I would like to know where you ended up getting such rosy picture of him? What
magazines, books should I read to realize how fooled I was? Don't hesitate to
enlight me.

You seem to refuse the main point in my argument: Boulez was not just an
artist making music or a conductor interpreting his/other's music (like Cage,
Stockhausen, Xenakis, etc). He was in power, meaning controlling where the
money goes and who should be played. His fascination for power has been the
subject of puzzlement among his piers. I am really surprised that you never
heard of it.

Did I say that Boulez stopped composing in the '60s? No, I said worse than
that: nothing really major after the '50s. Check around, you will only see
polite comments (best case) on what he did after the '50s. For someone who
was unanimously considered as the incarnation of the future of music in the
'50s, I find that a little bit strange. You don't. That's fine.

Financing art in France? Or you are naive, or you just refuse any negative
comment on your man (and everybody will notice that my mail was not about
Wynton Marsalis on r.m.b. :-). IRCAM ended up to gobble most of the credits
allocated to research in music (like the Opera does with budget for classical
music). Boulez' strong acceptance among the people in charge of financing the
arts was instrumental in favoring some forms of contemporary music, and not
others. I remember reading about Xenakis' bitterness at not being able to get
any serious financement for his studio (when IRCAM was running full swing in
creating the music of the future :-). I have not checked Georgie Born's book
on IRCAM. I will.

You don't seem to know anything about the intellectual atmosphere in France
when Boulez was the darling of the French establishment. It is easy to dismiss
all that as jealousy of "inferior" composers, or "gossipers" like me, and I am
sure that in many cases this is true. You might blame the politicians who are
looking for the "providential man" on whom they can download all their
responsabilities. Boulez was such a man for music. When he was in control,
there was not any room left for anybody else.

I never doubted about the brightness of Boulez. As far as talent is concerned
I have no doubt that LE MARTEAU SANS MAITRE will keep shining as one of
The masterpieces of the post-WWII music. But that's all. Yes, I think he is
a great conductor, but by saying that I just repeat what many people said
(although I think his version of LES NOCES is boring -- but JEUX is superb).

Anyway, I am happy to know that French culture still exports well.

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: THEE ALLMIGHTY
Date: 05 May 1998 00:42:06 -0400

Stefan Verstraeten wrote:

> ELLIOT SHARP RULES..........................
> (allmighty steve smith, please support this sentence with lots of
> information that you have.....)

YIKES!  Now this is the scariest thing I've seen this year.  Stefan, I'm
flattered, but everybody around here knows that the almighty is actually
Patrice Roussel, the man with more hours in his day than any of the rest of
us.  I'm a mere pretender next to him.

Hell, Zorn walked past me on the street Saturday and he DIDN'T EVEN NOTICE
ME.  So what kind of almighty could *I* possibly be? ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-)

Besides, when it comes to E#, his website gives you the dish better than
anyone else could.  I'm a fan, but I'm months behind in getting through his
output...  I did notice that he's going to be at the Knit in June, after the
Texaco fest, with a trio comprised of himself, Percy Jones and Marc
Edwards.  The mind reels.  Only Elliott could draw a line between those two
points.

Best,
Steve Smith
[e-mail]


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Stephane Vuilleumier" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Roof
Date: 05 May 1998 09:21:22 +0200

Sorry for the delayed answer,
I had to resubscribe to the list for some reason.
Yves DeWulf already alluded to a memorial concert in Belgium;
I think there is another one at Vandoeuvre as indicated below.

-From: Tom Pratt <[e-mail]>


>I just picked up Roof's THE UNTRACEABLE CIGAR and absolutely love it!
>The group consists of the late Tom Cora (cello), Luc Ex (bass - I'm not
>familiar with him), Phil Minton (vocals) and Michael Vatcher (drums -
>was on Spy Vs. Spy right?) and they play composed music (with, granted,
>plenty of improv within). Rock-tinged, super-compositions and playing as
>could be expected from these guys. They do a rendition of Harry Partch's
>"The Letter" and a couple tracks have Minton singing lyrics (in addition
>to his standard wack shit). Super disc! I recommend it lots. Anyway, has
>this group released anything else worthy of buying?? >-
>
>


THE UNTRACEABLE CIGAR is one of my favourite Tom Cora records.
Roof was also a great live band, with which Tom made his
last concert appearance in Lucerne on March 30.

Roof also has one live track on a deleted sampler I still have to
get hold of:
093 - COMPIL A ZOO: various artists
    1996 - Zoorganization?? (??), ?? (CD)

If anybody sees one, please get one for
me to and/or forward the details of it...

I think a follow-up to the first CD was planned but I
don't know what the situation is now.
A concert of a Tom Cora project (quoting by memory), featuring the
three other Roof members, Catherine Jauniaux and Zeena Parkins
is scheduled at the Vandoeuvre festival in Nancy (France) for
Saturday, May 23.

Stephane







-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Jeff Schuth" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Why Zorn
Date: 05 May 1998 05:29:39 PDT

   It just occured to me that mosto of the discussions that take place
here, are either about recent CD purchases or favorite artists.  While
this is interesting, I was wondering why no one talks about the music
itself.  I guess I am just curious why everyone here is drawn to this
sort of music.  I'm not even sure myself.  This music obviously cannot
be listened or appreciated like anything you'll here on the top ten.  So
would anyone like to tell me exactly what to listen for in Zorn's music
and how?
Thank you

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re:Ground Zero - Plays Standards
Date: 05 May 1998 13:53:51 UT

Does anyone know of a mail order or net-based distributer where I can order this
title?
I desperately want a copy, but here in the heartlands, we can't "just go to our
local Tower records" as the closest store is probably eight hours away.

If anyone could supply info, I'd be appreciative.
Thanks,
Peter


now playing:
Calexico - Black Light - Quarterstick Records

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Caleb Deupree)
Subject: Re: Ground Zero - Plays Standards
Date: 05 May 1998 09:04:42 -0400

>>>>> "peter" == peter risser <[e-mail]> writes:

    peter> Does anyone know of a mail order or net-based distributer
    peter> where I can order this title?  I desperately want a copy,
    peter> but here in the heartlands, we can't "just go to our local
    peter> Tower records" as the closest store is probably eight hours
    peter> away.

    peter> If anyone could supply info, I'd be appreciative.  Thanks,
    peter> Peter

Forced Exposure, www.forcedexposure.com.

---
Caleb T. Deupree
;; Opinions are not necessarily shared by management

Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers.
(Pablo Picasso)


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Yves Dewulf <[e-mail]>
Subject: James Bond
Date: 05 May 1998 15:33:28 +0200


Strange, I never noticed this before:
The James Bond Theme on the Naked City is credited as a
John Barry composition, while it is a Monty Norman tune.
(however John Barry wrote most of the other music of the Bond-movies)
How could a film-freak like John Zorn make such a mistake ?

YVes


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Julian" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Why Zorn
Date: 05 May 1998 23:51:36 +1000


> itself.  I guess I am just curious why everyone here is drawn to this
> sort of music.  I'm not even sure myself.  This music obviously cannot
> be listened or appreciated like anything you'll here on the top ten.

I think you just hit the nail on the head.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Julian" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: James Bond
Date: 05 May 1998 23:53:58 +1000

> Strange, I never noticed this before:
> The James Bond Theme on the Naked City is credited as a
> John Barry composition, while it is a Monty Norman tune.
> (however John Barry wrote most of the other music of the Bond-movies)
> How could a film-freak like John Zorn make such a mistake ?

I've got a John Barry compilation CD and James Bond is on it.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: James Bond
Date: 05 May 1998 16:02:39 +0200


> > Strange, I never noticed this before:
> > The James Bond Theme on the Naked City is credited as a
> > John Barry composition, while it is a Monty Norman tune.
> > (however John Barry wrote most of the other music of the Bond-movies)
> > How could a film-freak like John Zorn make such a mistake ?
>
> I've got a John Barry compilation CD and James Bond is on it.

Of course. If I were to put out a Barry compilation CD, I'd also include the
James Bond theme, whether he has written it or not. It's the music he has
become most closely associated with.

But wasn't the original James Bond theme credited to both Norman and Barry?
His best music for any Bond film remains Thunderball, in my opinion.

Frankco.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Joseph S. Zitt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: James Bond
Date: 05 May 1998 09:10:16 -0500 (CDT)

On Tue, 5 May 1998, Julian wrote:

> I've got a John Barry compilation CD and James Bond is on it.

This seems to be one of those ongoing questions. From
http://italy.imdb.com/StudioBrief/1997/19971013.html#4 :

COMPOSER BARRY CLAIMS HE WROTE 007 THEME

John Barry, an Oscar-winning composer who scored most of the James Bond
movies, is claiming that he, not Monty Norman, a London musician, composed
the signature Bond theme. In a sworn statement submitted to the British
rock magazine Mojo, Barry claims that originally Norman, who receives sole
credit as the writer of the theme, was signed in 1962 to score the Bond
films. "But they the producers had problems so I got brought in. I'd had
two or three hits by then.  I didn't care that Norman took the credit."
The London Sunday Times said that Norman was unavailable for comment but
added that associates of the musician "suspect that Barry simply wants
more glory."

- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Andrew p McMullen)
Subject: Re: Ground Zero - Plays Standards
Date: 05 May 1998 06:51:14 -0700

If one could only own either Satndards or Consume Red, which should one
choose and why?

DF Sinner

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Sulacco <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re:  Re: Why Zorn
Date: 05 May 1998 10:09:45 EDT

its like what someone said on the zappa ng:

"i just got tired of the ordinary"

(of course, i don't remember who said it, so i can't credit them.)

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Andy Marks" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Ground Zero - Plays Standards
Date: 05 May 1998 10:18:36 -0400

> If one could only own either Satndards or Consume Red, which should one
> choose and why?

I would have to say Standards because:
1. It rawks! :-)
2. Variety. Consume Red is one big long piece.
3. More of a group feel. Consume Red seems more like an Otomo solo piece.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Tosh)
Subject: Re: Why Zorn
Date: 05 May 1998 07:27:09 -0700 (PDT)

Besides Zorn making good music, he also represents a culture that is pretty
wide and textured.   Gainsbourg, Godard, Japanese porn, fashion,
soundtracks, artist films, etc. and of course - etc.

-----------------
Tosh Berman
TamTam Books
----------------



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Tosh)
Subject: Re: James Bond
Date: 05 May 1998 07:29:49 -0700 (PDT)

I think John Barry did write the main Bond theme.  Due to music business
practices he didn't get credit for it.  But I don't fully understand what
happened and why he didn't get credit for the piece.  But I am pretty sure
Barry wrote the theme.

-----------------
Tosh Berman
TamTam Books
----------------



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Caleb Deupree)
Subject: Re: Ground Zero - Plays Standards
Date: 05 May 1998 10:42:08 -0400

>>>>> "Andrew" == Andrew p McMullen <[e-mail]> writes:

    Andrew> If one could only own either Satndards or Consume Red,
    Andrew> which should one choose and why?

Standards is what the name says, a number of covers of various tunes
which may or may not be previously known.  Being covers of pop songs
and movie music, the form is relatively traditional, and there is a
higher degree of familiarity in the music.  The tracks are all
separate, so you could put it in a CD shuffle, either by itself or
with other CDs, if you're so inclined.  My colleague who likes GZ
prefers Standards.

Consume Red is one long track focused on a long drawn-out sound of the
hojok, one of the Korean classical instruments, which is played by
itself in the beginning of the piece, then interrupted more and more
often by the GZ brand of chaos.  By the end, the classical instrument
is completely obscured.  Some people really don't like the hojok, and
I admit it takes a little getting used to, and has a much lower level
of familiarity than the pop songs of Standards, really nasal and
abrasive, somewhat similar to Tibetan monks, maybe.  I feel exhausted
after listening to this piece, but I'm dazzled by it every time.  It's
much more experimental and ambitious in form than Standards.  If I
could only choose one, I'd choose Consume Red.

So, if your taste runs to more experimental stuff and you like long
forms and Asian classical music, try Consume Red.  If you're more
conservative (relatively speaking of course) and you're more
comfortable with songs, try Standards.



---
Caleb T. Deupree
;; Opinions are not necessarily shared by management

Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers.
(Pablo Picasso)


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re[2]: Ground Zero - Plays Standards
Date: 05 May 1998 10:38:42 -0500




If one could only own either Satndards or Consume Red, which should one
choose and why?

     'Standards' is a great deal of fun and a fine record; 'Consume Red' is
     the best "rock" album I've heard since 'Leng T'che' (haters of that
     album can take that as they please). 'Consume Red' is what alternative
     bands will sound like in ten years though, of course, much worse. An
     extraordinary album, my personal choice for best release of 1997,
     narrowly edging out Braxton's 'Quartet, Santa Cruz, 1993'.

     Obsessive, dense, staggeringly powerful. Get it.

     Brian Olewnick





-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Yves Dewulf <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Why Zorn
Date: 05 May 1998 17:27:51 +0200


>   Besides Zorn making good music, he also represents a culture that is pretty
>   wide and textured.   Gainsbourg, Godard, Japanese porn, fashion,
                                ------
>   soundtracks, artist films, etc. and of course - etc.

    What's Zorn's involvement with fashion ?
    (Besides his orange Masada-T-shirt and camouflage-pants?)


   -


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Julien Quint <[e-mail]>
Subject: Roof / Compilazoo
Date: 05 May 1998 17:33:03 +0200

[I don't know who wrote this:]

> Roof also has one live track on a deleted sampler I still have to  get
> hold of:  093 - COMPIL A ZOO: various artists
>     1996 - Zoorganization?? (??), ?? (CD)
>
> If anybody sees one, please get one for  me to and/or forward the
> details of it...

The Compilazoo CD was released to support the Zoorganisation, a French
association booking "punk" bands (in a very broad term) like The Ex, the Dog
Faced Hermans, God Is My Co-Pilot, Uz Jsme Doma; a lot of Scottish, Dutch,
Eastern European (Hungary, Czech Republic, Poland, etc.), French or American
bands in that "tradition". Officially the CD was released by the Hungarian
label Trottel (run by the *band* Trottel), was sold rather cheap and mainly
before the actual release on a subscription basis. From memory, the bands on
the CD include: Roof of course, Dragibus, Donkey, Rhythm Activism, Uz Jsme
Doma, Cornice, The Ex, God Is My Co-Pilot, and a few more. Overall, this is a
really good compilation CD, especially considering the low price, but the Roof
track is really nothing special (as opposed to their wonderful full-length CD).

If someone's interested, I can try and see if it is still possible to find a
copy of this CD, or at least get the contact address for Zoorganisation (they
keep moving... they must be in Rouen now) and/or Trottel in Budapest. If it
doesn't work out, I could do a tape dub for someone *really* desperate.

*
Julien, who just happened to make a mix tape with a song off the Compilazoo on
it...

Julien Quint                                Member of the MLTT Resarch Staff
Xerox Research Centre Europe                     [e-mail]
6, chemin de Maupertuis                          phone: [phone]
38240 Meylan, France                               fax: [phone]



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Dragon -------- Frog)
Subject: Ground Zero-Consume Red
Date: 05 May 1998 08:56:16 -0700

Thanks to all. My question is completely answered by your descriptions.
While I'll eventually get both, CONSUME RED is the place for me to begin,
and my local source has a copy in stock. I'm on my way.

Roarrribbit

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Have you heard....?
Date: 05 May 1998 12:50:45 -0500


     (Or, Why I'll never catch up...)

     The following appeared in ad or review form in the current (June)
     WIRE. If anyone's heard them and has comments, I'd be much obliged.

     Taku Sugimoto              Opposite                Hat Noir
     Pat Thomas                 Remembering             NJC
     Guillermo Gregorio         Ellipsis                Hatology
     Braxton/Newton (Lauren)    Composition 192         Leo
     Barry Adamson              As Above So Below       Mute
     Iva Bittova                Iva Bittova             Nonesuch
     Bernard Parmegiani         De Natura Sonorum       INA
     Lucier/Nilsson/Jeney       With a Minimum of Means Content
     Howard Skempton            Home and Abroad         Content
     Joe Maneri                 Paniots Nine            Avant
     Cuncordu de Orosei         Miserere                Winter & Winter

     The last is music from Sardinia, which seems to be becoming the
     'Balkana' of this year; if anyone's heard other stuff from this
     island, please let me know.

     Thanks,

     Brian Olewnick




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Snap" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Why Zorn
Date: 06 May 1998 13:55:50 -0400

Why . . . Korn?
-----Original Message-----


>   It just occured to me that mosto of the discussions that take place
>here, are either about recent CD purchases or favorite artists.  While
>this is interesting, I was wondering why no one talks about the music
>itself.  I guess I am just curious why everyone here is drawn to this
>sort of music.  I'm not even sure myself.  This music obviously cannot
>be listened or appreciated like anything you'll here on the top ten.  So
>would anyone like to tell me exactly what to listen for in Zorn's music
>and how?
>Thank you
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>-
>




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: JonAbbey2 <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re:  Have you heard....?
Date: 05 May 1998 14:56:07 EDT


In a message dated 5/5/98 1:29:14 PM, [e-mail] wrote:

<<The following appeared in ad or review form in the current (June)

     WIRE. If anyone's heard them and has comments, I'd be much obliged.>>

<<Taku Sugimoto              Opposite                Hat Noir>>

A Japanese guitarist with Mazzacane's tone but using as many notes as Bailey.
This is a really beautiful record and one of the best things I've heard
lately.

 <<Bernard Parmegiani         De Natura Sonorum       INA>>

No self-respecting music fan should be without this. One of a handful of the
greatest electroacoustic records ever made, along with Hymnen, La Legende
D'Eer and a few others.

<<Joe Maneri                 Paniots Nine            Avant>>

Nice for its historical value, but less than essential musically in my
opinion. There are many better places to start with Maneri.

<<Pat Thomas                 Remembering             NJC

     Guillermo Gregorio         Ellipsis                Hatology

     Braxton/Newton (Lauren)    Composition 192         Leo>>

I heard the Gregorio briefly and was underwhelmed. The Thomas and Braxton I
have but haven't played yet.

Hope that helps,
Jon

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Snap" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Towering Inferno
Date: 06 May 1998 15:00:40 -0400

    Just yesterday, casually perusing the CD bins of a Best Buy, of all
places, I happened to pick up Towering Inferno's remarkable opus "Kaddish"
(Island Independent), a stunning 'debut', if I've ever known one, from one
Richard Wolfson and one Andy Saunders - both of whom I've never before
heard - , with guest vocalizations by Marta Sebestyen and Endre Szkarosi.
Seventy-five unforgettable, unrelenting minutes of Balkan threnodies,
Hungarian funeral orations, death-metal guitars, shofars . . . Hasidic
cantors droning over the pounding of anvils leading into serene string
quartets colliding into blatantly interruptive Nazi diatribes which
themselves recede into ambient screeches of bald eagles while the sonic
Diaspora amalgamates and erects its aural Babel, all of which has been
played live for the last year-and-a-half in Europe in accompaniment of a
multi-media visual collage of burning swastikas, an old and erie
black-and -white silent cartoon documenting Hansel and Gretel's purported
fate, demolished Greek statues, and synagogues-in-construction . . . a show
which, although well-received across the Atlantic, unfortunately lacks funds
and/or label support to be shown here.
    Check it out. For an aperitif venture on over to
http://musiccentral.com/WeeklyFeatures/Article/109/1
    Has anyone happened to have seen this show live?





-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tom Pratt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: THEE ALLMIGHTY
Date: 05 May 1998 16:10:07 -0400

> Besides, when it comes to E#, his website gives you the dish better than
> anyone else could.  I'm a fan, but I'm months behind in getting through his
> output...

Well, you'd be psyched to hear his two SUPER, hand-packaged zOaR discs
SPRING & NEAP and RHEO-UMBRA. Both are limited edition of 300 so grab
'em quick!!!! I can't recommend SPRING & NEAP enough. It's a single
composition of E#'s (he conducts too) for a bunch of shamisen, kotos,
hrap, piano, basses, percussions, etc. that is a build-up & release of
tension/noise/chaos kind of thing. Super disc!

  I did notice that he's going to be at the Knit in June, after the
> Texaco fest, with a trio comprised of himself, Percy Jones and Marc
> Edwards.  The mind reels.  Only Elliott could draw a line between those two
> points.

Marc Edwards is a drummer, eh??? Sounds like a reincarnation of Percy
Jones' Scanners with E# and Previte from back in the day. I love hearing
e# in a rock trio format - I hope they record something!

                -Tom Pratt

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rich Williams <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Why Zorn
Date: 05 May 1998 16:11:20 -0500

Yves Dewulf wrote:
>
> >   Besides Zorn making good music, he also represents a culture that is pretty
> >   wide and textured.   Gainsbourg, Godard, Japanese porn, fashion,
>                                                             ------
> >   soundtracks, artist films, etc. and of course - etc.
>
>     What's Zorn's involvement with fashion ?
>     (Besides his orange Masada-T-shirt and camouflage-pants?)


I once saw him wearing puffy pants,tucked into loud striped leggings,
with 2 different colored sneakers on his feet. If that aint a fashion
statement, then nothing is.

Rich

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jan-Wen Lu <[e-mail]>
Subject: Kato Hideki new solo disc
Date: 06 May 1998 06:41:42 +0800

Kato Hideki has a new electric bass solo CD "Turbulent Zone" on his own
label- Music for Expanded Ears. For more information, please check out
their web-site:

http://www.expandedears.com/


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tom DiStefano <[e-mail]>
Subject: Seattle Listening Group
Date: 05 May 1998 18:46:00 -0400

Hello fellow Zornophiles:

First, thanks to everyone for their contributions to this list.  Since I
joined in December, I've learned an enoromous amount about music without
having to wade through a lot of flames.  Keep up the good work!

Four of us here in Seattle have started a monthly listening group, and we=
'd
like to invite fellow ZornListers to join us.  We usually meet on a
weeknight, have a quick dinner, and then listen and talk from about 6:30 =
to
10 or 11, whenever we run out of steam.  Meetings rotate mong members'
houses, but everybody is free to bring whatever CD or vinyl they'd like t=
o
expose others to.  We are very open to new stuff; so far, we have gone fr=
om
Henry Cow & Faust in the 70's through Glass and Reich right up to Zorn,
Horvitz, Frisell, etc.  To connect with us, e-mail any of us:

Bear:   [e-mail]
Dave:   [e-mail]
Tom:    [e-mail]

Tom

P.S. Patrick in Portland, thanks for putting into words so eloquently wha=
t
made Joey Baron's drumming so special.  If you're ever in Seattle, look u=
s
up!


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Terence Sin" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn List Digest V2 #353
Date: 05 May 1998 19:21:04 +0500

> Other highlight is obvious: John Zorn "Circle Maker". Marvelous album

I was totally knocked out by one of the variation on the theme of Track
10, Disc 1 (Malkhut).  It kicks in at 00:17 and 1:41.  I would kill to
hear it developed into a full-length tune.

I'm surprised more people didn't rant and rave about this release.  Disc
1 is just fabulous.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: dennis summers <[e-mail]>
Subject: Quick notes
Date: 05 May 1998 17:49:07 -0600

Hi guys, I've been out of the picture for at least a few weeks. When I ran
out of time to read all this stuff, you all were doing the top 20 lists. I
can't offer a list, it'd be jus too damn hard. However, the one thing on
that list for sure would by the Harry Smith Anthology of American Music,
which I recently got, and continues to blow me away.

Also thanx to whoever raved about the Butch Lawrence 10 disc Conductions set
which I recently bought based solely on the couple of records I already had
and your fave review. I've only gotten through 3 discs so far, but am
enjoying it immensely.

I may have missed this so ignore me if you want, but I also just picked up
the Weird Little Boy disc, and although on first listen only think the music
is average (for Zorn, still years ahead of anyone else) I more curious if
anyone knows the story behind the book, and how it's supposed to relate to
the music.

yours in zornocity --ds
***Quantum Dance Works***
****http://ic.net/~denniss****


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Coleman Greene <[e-mail]>
Subject: Clusone Trio Tour Re:Boston
Date: 05 May 1998 20:24:35 -0400 (EDT)

The trio isn't actually playing boston, they are playing
May 14
Killian Hall, Mass Institute of Technology.
Cambridge, MA
8pm
Tickets are $16 cash, there is a student discount, was $10 at the Tim
Berne Show they put on.
Booked & promoted by the newly formed Boston Creative Music Alliance. Look
them up for further info, I work at MIT, and they havent even advertised
this show in their art/music/performance listings,(shame) so I doubt you
could get much useful info from MIT. (except directions to Killian Hall)



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Christopher Hamilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Have you heard....?
Date: 05 May 1998 23:19:42 -0400 (EDT)



On Tue, 5 May 1998 [e-mail] wrote:

>      Guillermo Gregorio         Ellipsis                Hatology

My favorite 1998 release so far.  I picked this up on impulse because of
Jim O'Rourke's presence.  The closest comparisons I can think of are
Tristano's 1949 free pieces, but Gregorio's work is based on compositions
(I think), more developed, and involves far more attention to timbre.  In
the last respect, Gregorio sounds influenced by Ayler, but avoids the
emotional expressionism associated with energy music.  Fine stuff.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: George Grella <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Boulez
Date: 05 May 1998 09:38:10 -0800

Patrice L. Roussel writes:


> And I guess seeing him as you see him is OK, right?
>
> I would like to know where you ended up getting such rosy picture of him? What
> magazines, books should I read to realize how fooled I was? Don't hesitate to
> enlight me.
>
> You seem to refuse the main point in my argument: Boulez was not just an
> artist making music or a conductor interpreting his/other's music (like Cage,
> Stockhausen, Xenakis, etc). He was in power, meaning controlling where the
> money goes and who should be played. His fascination for power has been the
> subject of puzzlement among his piers. I am really surprised that you never
> heard of it.
>
> Did I say that Boulez stopped composing in the '60s? No, I said worse than
> that: nothing really major after the '50s. Check around, you will only see
> polite comments (best case) on what he did after the '50s. For someone who
> was unanimously considered as the incarnation of the future of music in the
> '50s, I find that a little bit strange. You don't. That's fine.
>
> Financing art in France? Or you are naive, or you just refuse any negative
> comment on your man (and everybody will notice that my mail was not about
> Wynton Marsalis on r.m.b. :-). IRCAM ended up to gobble most of the credits
> allocated to research in music (like the Opera does with budget for classical
> music). Boulez' strong acceptance among the people in charge of financing the
> arts was instrumental in favoring some forms of contemporary music, and not
> others. I remember reading about Xenakis' bitterness at not being able to get
> any serious financement for his studio (when IRCAM was running full swing in
> creating the music of the future :-). I have not checked Georgie Born's book
> on IRCAM. I will.
>
> You don't seem to know anything about the intellectual atmosphere in France
> when Boulez was the darling of the French establishment. It is easy to dismiss
> all that as jealousy of "inferior" composers, or "gossipers" like me, and I am
> sure that in many cases this is true. You might blame the politicians who are
> looking for the "providential man" on whom they can download all their
> responsabilities. Boulez was such a man for music. When he was in control,
> there was not any room left for anybody else.
>
> I never doubted about the brightness of Boulez. As far as talent is concerned
> I have no doubt that LE MARTEAU SANS MAITRE will keep shining as one of
> The masterpieces of the post-WWII music. But that's all. Yes, I think he is
> a great conductor, but by saying that I just repeat what many people said
> (although I think his version of LES NOCES is boring -- but JEUX is superb).
>
> Anyway, I am happy to know that French culture still exports well.
>

Patrice, my point is that I regard Boulez, critically, as a musician.  I
don't know the man personally, I can't pass judgement on his aesthetic
and bureaucratic politics, nor do I care to.  It doesn't matter to me,
because that kind of thing quickly becomes a contest over who belongs to
the better/cooler/more moral side of the equation, as seems to be
happening.

Remember, this all started for me when you criticized Boulez for doing
something you supported, recording Zappa, but criticizing him because
you didn't like his reasons, or what you assumed his reasons to be!  I
found that totally unfair, on both counts.  Unless you know the man,
regard him as a musician.  You are criticizing him as you see him as a
public figure, which is subjective and emotional, all arguing by
assertion; not just what Boulez did, but how you feel about it as an
aggrieved party.  There's parties who are NOT aggrieved by Boulez's
actions.

I can pick out so many musicians, once you obviously seem to favor, and
apply your own words to them.  Power hungry?  Fine, I'll accept your
premise.  Then I'll call Cage power hungry, because in those terms
[ideology, performances] he was.  He wanted what he wanted, and didn't
believe aesthetically in other things.  Believe it or not, a ton of
major musicians have that same attitude; they like and they dislike -
Ives, Stockhausen, Mozart.  Power hungry?  Whatever.  It's a meaningless
criticism, it just means that Boulez didn't favor what you favor.
Mahler didn't favor what other people favored either, and in terms of
power he developed his whole career around acquiring it.  He did the
pieces HE wanted at the opera, he promoted the music he believed in,
like Bruckner, and criticized the work of other composers, like
Schoenberg.  That was his job and his artistic choice.  Yeah, it was
tough for his detractors, but since when do we all have to have the same
taste?  To you, it can be called a "fascination with power," to me, it's
a strong willed musician exercising his artistic beliefs.  I would do
the same thing in  his position.  As the producer of a record label,
John Zorn does the EXACT SAME THING.  Power mad, obviously.

Your criticism of Boulez's composing is plainly clouded by your
emotional problems with him as a man.  He has written several major
works since the 1940s-50s, and that's that.  The San Francisco Symphony
has programmed one of his pieces for next fall.  "Notations" circa
1978.  I guess that means they don't know what they're doing, perhaps
you can consult on this for them?  What I find ironic is that you've
spent a lot of energy attacking Boulez for his taste in post-serial
music, implying that his is ideologically narrow-minded while yours is
far more catholic, and yet the example of his work that shines for you
is "Le Marteau."  While that piece is interesting and important for its
technique, as music, a piece that rewards listening, it is far less
successful than other Boulez works, "Pli Selon Pli," for example.  The
only people I see describing it, as you do, as a masterpiece, are serial
and post-serial ideologues to whom the serial technique is everything.
Your admiration for that piece indicates a closer fit between your taste
and Boulez's than you may feel comfortable with.

As for government funding, again, it's a matter of whose ox is gored.
You feel Xankis deserved all those government resources because he's
your man.  Other people had differing opinions.  Too bad for Xenakis,
but he still managed to produce work, didn't he?  This is one of my
ambivalent problems with government funding; everyone feels they deserve
some.  Not true.  There's never enough to go around, and choices have to
be made.  Tell me, did any of it have to do with the French wanting to
spend money on the French, not the Greek?  Percectly valid choice for
them to make, if they wanted to.  Yes, French government money, with or
without Boulez as adjunct, influenced contemporary music.  But Patrice,
plenty of contemporary music got made without that money, and continues
to do so.  I have no taste for the sort of political intrigues that got
Myung-Wun Chung fired, for example, but music still got made; Messiaen,
Dutilleux, Vivier.  Dutilleux would seem to me the kind of musician you
would claim Boulez smothered, but nothing like that happened.

The part of French culture that seems to be exported in this case is the
philosophical bickering.  I couldn't care less about that.  I am
interested in the music.  What you're missing is that Boulez is the
great icon ]love him or hate him] of the high Modernist International
Style, the aim of which was to break down nationalistic qualities in
music, so it's strange that your comments seem so wrapped up in French
navel-gazing.  Boulez is like Elliot Carter or Stockhausen is so many
ways, not just in terms of exemplifying that international style, but in
engendering so much animosity in their own countries through their
personal success.  More power to them, I say.

gg





-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: George Grella <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Music & Jargon
Date: 04 May 1998 11:02:46 -0800

Nathaniel Doward quotes Ben Watson:


>         "The beauty of Zappa's orchestral music is a fresh, unacademic
> weighing of particular sounds: you can hear him think as he balances drum
> rolls and string scratching against the clarinet line....
>         "Zappa is an extremely linear--or real-time--composer.  His
> musical decisions result from the attention of the listening ear.  Whereas
> Darmstadt composers frequently pursue a dialectic of schematic,
> mathematical invention versus playability and audibility, Zappa uses
> scores to direct musicians rather than to figure abstract shapes.  This
> means that he very rarely attains the complex simultaneity that
> characterizes Boulez or early Stockhausen.  In writing for full orchestra,
> without the automatic simultaneity of playing with an improvising band of
> musicians, he does not exploit the specific potential of scores, which is
> to generate separate--but simultaneous--events.  However, what he does
> contribute is a sense of freewheeling absurdity that academic composers
> find impossible to attempt without sounding tiresome. ...
>         "This orchestral music is an essential adjunct to the
> project/object.  Not only does it allow us to hear Zappa's music refracted
> through the traditional vehicle of bourgeois expression, it also
> demonstrates the economic vicissitudes and social contradictions involved
> in the area.  Just as much as the _200 Motels_ court case, Zappa uses the
> opportunity to make all kinds of fissures appear in the for-granted status
> of traditional practices.  But it cannot be said that Zappa has left the
> field of classical composition behind as he has left fusion (or 'abstract
> music using rock sonorities'): a burnt-up field.  If the postmoderns were
> correct, and the high-art avant-garde were utterly moribund, Zappa's work
> would stand out heroically against minimal piety and neo-religious
> obfuscation.  However, new sounds are still being generated with the
> symphony orchestra, as the work of James Dillon demonstrates.  In this
> context, Zappa's orchestral style sounds like an intriguing burlesque in a
> side alley."
>

Quite a statment, and it actually manages to mean something!  It's
frustrating, because while he actually says something about the music in
the first paragraph, does a good job of conveying how it sounds to him
[Watson], he goes on to nullify any cogent criticism with the type of
red herrings and jargon-filled nonsense that I am so passionately
against.  There's an enormous quality of elitist value judgment here,
which goes beyond liking things as a mark of hipness, but liking them
for the right reasons.  The best way to screw things, and oneself, up
when talking about music is to inject ideology into the mix.

Why the straw-man of Darmstadt?  A lot of composers were there during
it's epoch, and not only did their work differ in personal ideas and
style, but, as with most artist, their work changed throughout their
careers.  This monolith of "Darmstadt" is a myth, as the variety of
contemporary music [or the variety within Stockhausen's ouvre alone]
shows. And why Darmstadt alone, why not set Zappa against other
"movements" like Black Mountain or the west coast?  If Watson wanted to
prove a critical point, he was unfair to only pitch Zappa against such a
narrow definition of his contemporaries.  He also fails to point or
[perhaps he's ignorant of . . .] Zappa's debt to Varese and, before
that, Darmstadt's debt to Varese.  Varese liberated sound from both
tonality and structured atonality, he pushed timbre as it's own
structure, successfully.

Watson also implies that Zappa did things that no other "academic" and
or "bourgeois" composer did, which may be true when you compare him to
Randy Newman or Billy Joel, but not when you put Zappa into the context
of contemporary art music, where the work under dicussion belongs.  Go
back to Varese again, or Stravinsky, and someone please tell me that the
intended humor and absurdity in Stravinsky's music is tiresome.  It's
certainly far more concise than Zappa's, and if brevity is the soul of
wit . . . and Watson should know that every score "directs musicians,"
it's how they play the damn music!

His class-based comments are incoherent.  The symphony orchestra is the
traditional vehicle of expression for symphonic composers, not for an
economic/social class.  I can imagine the number of composers who would
have been amazed had they found themselves classed as bourgeois.  But
Watson can't seem to admit that music was created out of the desires and
ideas of the composers, not out of bourgeois demands.  If that were
true, then all reviews of new works would be good ones.  Economics and
politics are one thing, the economic and political aspects of art are
another, and, fortunately for us listeners, music is another thing
altogether!

The Boulez appendix is interesting, not least because what other
contemporary composer generates any such press coverage?  Not a one.
But Zappa was a rock star making a new foray with these recordings, a
commercial success in a commercial field [of course an artistic one was
well] with a popular audience, not the cult-like public interest in
contemporary music.  There's a disconnect here when musicians that have
been mentioned in this list are successful when they sell 3,000.  If
Zappa regularly had sales like that, no one would know who he was, and
no orchestra would have recorded him.  So I can understand if Boulez
felt a little ambivalent about the project.  Obviously, he had enough
regard for the music to perform it, and perform it well.  He was
probably a little put off by a press that demanded instant response and
reaction from a musician who is used to spending decades with scores,
his ideas changing the whole time.  And I think it would be only human
of him to feel conflicted in some ways about the popular response to
Zappa's orchestral work, when Boulez's record sales in his lifetime
probably don't match even one Mothers of Invention LP.  What I can
imagine hm thinking in his comments [and this is entirely subjective],
is that he wanted to reserve judgement on the scores so he could spend
enough time with them to go as deep as he could into them [what
conductors and composers actually do at home anyway], but his initial
reaction was quite favorable, as shown in his praise of the vitality of
the music, which he obviously found refreshing.  That is no small
comment of praise on anyone's music, be in Zappa or Beethoven.  At the
very least, Boulez regarded the music, not the esoteric, vapid,
nonsensical pseudo-intellectual [de]structural/post[whatever] context.

gg





-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Lang Thompson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Avant magazine
Date: 06 May 1998 00:08:15 -0400

The new issue of Cadence lists a few issues of a magazine called Avant.  Is
it worth getting and do the cassettes with it have any unreleased music?
Lang Thompson
http://www.tcf.ua.edu/wlt4
New at Funhouse:  Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan obituary.

"Zathras beast of burden to many others.  Is sad
life.  Probably have sad death.  But at least
there is symmetry."  --  Zathras

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Lang Thompson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: James Bond
Date: 06 May 1998 00:28:04 -0400

This is one of those on-going controversies that seems unlikely to be
resolved either way, at least not anytime soon.  It seems worth noting
though that while Barry has claimed he actually wrote it (sworn statement
to Mojo?), he doesn't seem to have made any official attempt to have the
credit changed which tends to indicate that he doesn't think his claim
would stand up.  And I seem to remember stronger evidence in favor of Monty
Norman, such as witnesses or chronology discrepancies, but maybe that's old
age playing tricks on my mind.

LT
Lang Thompson
http://www.tcf.ua.edu/wlt4
New at Funhouse:  Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan obituary.

"Zathras beast of burden to many others.  Is sad
life.  Probably have sad death.  But at least
there is symmetry."  --  Zathras

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Marc Edwards and E#
Date: 06 May 1998 00:35:41 -0400

Tom Pratt wrote:

> Marc Edwards is a drummer, eh??? Sounds like a reincarnation of Percy
> Jones' Scanners with E# and Previte from back in the day. I love hearing
> e# in a rock trio format - I hope they record something!

Marc Edwards is indeed a drummer, but I don't know how forthcoming the rock trio
content might be, unless Marc's got a side I've not heard.  The records from
which I know his playing are Cecil Taylor's "Dark to Themselves" and David S.
Ware's "Flight of i" ......... That, in a sense, makes it all the more
interesting to me, though I agree E# can be mighty compelling in a straight-ish
situation.

Steve Smith
[e-mail]


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Christopher Hamilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Music & Jargon
Date: 06 May 1998 01:33:18 -0400 (EDT)



I started to write a lengthy, point-by-point criticism of George's
criticisms of the Watson quote, but I decided it would be petty.  Two main
points worth briefly mentioning were: (1) The quote is an excerpt from a
vastly larger work, and shouldn't be taken as a complete critical
discussion of Zappa's work.  (2) The quote compares Zappa negatively to
Darmstadt composers specifically; George's eloquent defense of the breadth
of contemporary European art music is thus misdirected, and in fact serves
to support Watson's final point.  What really set me off was the
following:

On Mon, 4 May 1998, George Grella wrote regarding a lengthy Ben Watson
quote:

> His class-based comments are incoherent.  The symphony orchestra is the
> traditional vehicle of expression for symphonic composers, not for an
> economic/social class.  I can imagine the number of composers who would
> have been amazed had they found themselves classed as bourgeois.  But
> Watson can't seem to admit that music was created out of the desires and
> ideas of the composers, not out of bourgeois demands.

You objected to bringing ideology into discussions of music, but the
romantic individualism you defend in the above is as much
an ideology as Watson's Marxism.  Similarly you seem perfectly happy to
use jargon in your criticisms of Watson, but you nail him for using
different jargon.  It comes off (to me at least) as if you're trying to
smuggle in your own ideology without actually arguing for it.  I doubt
this is your intention, but you might want to be more careful about making
presuppositions of your own when chastising others for theirs.

     (I might add I think ideological lenses can sometimes shed light on
music, so long as one isn't blinded to other perspectives by them.)

Chris Hamilton
Sensitive Former Marxist

P.S. Where might I look in Varese's and Stravinsky's works for absurdity?
I know some work by each, but just the big famous stuff, and I don't hear
it there.




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Yves Dewulf <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: James Bond
Date: 06 May 1998 10:05:32 +0200


Well, I seems that my original statement on the composer of the
James Bond Theme was wrong. Some more evidence:

I found this on a John Barry-fan page:
(http://users.cybercity.dk/~ccc7447/barry2.html)

>> In 1962 in happened. Barry was asked to arrange the title-tune for
the very first James Bond-Movie: Dr.No based on Ian Fleming's novel.
The used title theme is composed by John Barry, disregarding that
Monty Norman is still being credited for the theme, because of the old
contract made in 1962. The disclosure came in 1990 by the late Terence
Young, the director of Dr.No. Barry got 200 pounds for the job in
1962.<<

YVes



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Yves Dewulf <[e-mail]>
Subject: Shea
Date: 06 May 1998 10:19:23 +0200


Yesterday was the world-premiere of the
Electric Chamber symphony Nr.1 by David Shea for
Chamber Orchestra (Ictus-ensemble) and Sampler.

It was amazing. Imagine something like  Ligeti's Atmospheres meets
Zorn's Elegy meets Carl Stalling and you're not even close to what it
sounded like. Nice Job!

Before the symphony, there was a mind-blowing version of Tex
(piano/sampler) and a solo-sampler version of Satyricon
(nice to see that about half the audience (well-known Belgian
composers included), were putting their
fingers in their ears during the drum'n'bass finale))

YVes

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Alan E Kayser <[e-mail]>
Subject: Gerry Hemingway in Philadelphia
Date: 06 May 1998 09:53:26 -0400

<HTML>
Zorn listers:

<P>The Gerry Hemingway Quartet will be in Philadelphia on May 22.
Check out the info at
<BR><A HREF="http://www.erols.com/aek1">http://www.erols.com/aek1</A>
<BR><A HREF="http://www.cdchoice.com">http://www.cdchoice.com</A><BR CLEAR=BOTH>
<BR>
<BR><A HREF="http://www.cdchoice.com"></A>
<BR><A HREF="http://www.cdchoice.com"></A> </HTML>


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Brent Burton <[e-mail]>
Subject: wha?
Date: 06 May 1998 10:45:31 -0400 (EDT)

> Nathaniel Doward quotes Ben Watson:
> However, what he does contribute is a sense of freewheeling absurdity
> that academic composers find impossible to attempt without sounding
> tiresome. ...

"academic" is synonymous with tedium in classical music.  why bother with
the comparison?  is zappa only interesting when contrasted with the driest
of academic composers?

b


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Benjamin Pequet <[e-mail]>
Subject: Faqts
Date: 06 May 1998 17:29:03 +0200

Also I was wondering... where actually to find information about the Zorn ?
I mean the person and his work. I don't have the opportunity to be roaming
the net through hundreds of sites now, so I ask if there are some sites I
should consider ? Other than the Knit's ?
Probably this is a very trite request, but I don't know where to find the
faqs either. And this could be of interest for not just me but if that's too
frequently asked questions you can email me privately and sorry for taking
space on your hard discs.
I was told some time ago that he doesn't give interviews and that the
sources should be what he writes in the booklets of his cds. Is that still
true ? Is there a place on the net where these texts are posted ? And where
these texts and other things are commented, sociological perspective or so ?

Well, thanks a lot.  Benj


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Joseph S. Zitt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Avant magazine
Date: 06 May 1998 10:31:22 -0500 (CDT)

On Wed, 6 May 1998, Lang Thompson wrote:

> The new issue of Cadence lists a few issues of a magazine called Avant.  Is
> it worth getting and do the cassettes with it have any unreleased music?

If it's the same magazine that I picked up a copy of recently, It's
wonderful -- makes The Wire looks like Teen Beat.... Wow, looking at the
Cadence listing for Avant issue 5, it looks like it's the one. I'm
ordering ASAP. Thanks for the pointer!

- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: BJOERN <[e-mail]>
Subject: american musicians wanted
Date: 06 May 1998 18:06:33 +0200 (MSZ)

well,
this is a bit off-topic but i am sure some of the people on this list can
help me:
we (some free improv musicians from tuebingen/germany) got a relatively
big amount of money from our local GERMAN-AMERICAN INSTITUTE to do a
series of concerts with free improvising musicians from the states....
that means..some of us will play with the musician comin from abroad..

since it is not THAT much money we are looking for musicians who are in
germany or near germany between october 97 and mai 98 and who are
interested to play here (i guess we`ll be able to pay a few hundred
dollars....)
anyone who is a musician and is interested please contact me...
if you know musicians please forward this email to em...
\
thankx

BJOERN

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Brent Burton <[e-mail]>
Subject: ducret
Date: 06 May 1998 12:31:42 -0400 (EDT)

i picked up the new marc ducret solo guitar cd this weekend @ tim berne's
paraphrase show here in d.c.  the disc starts out with some distorted,
energy-sound playing reminiscent of sonny sharrock's _guitar_, ian
williams heavier riffing in storm & stress, and of course ducret's own
spazzed-out fretwork on berne's _pace yourself_.  subsequent songs are
cleaner and more minimal.  ducret manages to skirt around the edges of
the more conventional jazz guitar idiom without ever sounding conventional.
the recording sounds great and from what i can tell, it doesn't appear to
have any overdubs.
like the other screwgun releases, _un certain malaise_ is packaged in
a tortoise-style, brown cardboard case, but what really sold me was the
cover's robotic spanking motif.

b

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Stephane Vuilleumier" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Avant magazine
Date: 06 May 1998 18:30:02 +0200

may I formulate some objections on Avant Magazine
related to Wire...
It has more to do with Jazz than the current Wire, no question.
But the graphics and layout of Avant magazine make it
a very difficult read (or you can't photocopy them).
Some articles are great (the one on Morton Feldman springs to mind),
but others really read like a local newspaper blurb for
a fast-food store that just has opened.

The CDs are great and often contain unreleased stuff
(eg. Parker/Casserley), but the music often almost treads
on the trad side. The concept is to showcase one label per CD,
so you often end up with a clear picture of what label
carries mostly stuff you should NEVER buy...

BTW, is the issue 6 out yet? this is meant to be a monthly,
and number 5 came out ages ago...oh well, at least the subscription
was cheap.

Stephane

Stephane Vuilleumier
Mikrobiologisches Institut
ETH-Zurich                  Tel:   [phone]
ETH-Zentrum/LFV             Fax:   [phone]
8092 Zurich                 email: [e-mail]
Switzerland                 http://www.micro.biol.ethz.ch/~svuilleu



-----Original Message-----
Cc: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>


>On Wed, 6 May 1998, Lang Thompson wrote:
>
>> The new issue of Cadence lists a few issues of a magazine called Avant.
Is
>> it worth getting and do the cassettes with it have any unreleased music?
>
>If it's the same magazine that I picked up a copy of recently, It's
>wonderful -- makes The Wire looks like Teen Beat.... Wow, looking at the
>Cadence listing for Avant issue 5, it looks like it's the one. I'm
>ordering ASAP. Thanks for the pointer!
>
>- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
>|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
>||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
>|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|
>
>
>-
>
>


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dan Given <[e-mail]>
Subject: re: Have you heard...?
Date: 06 May 1998 13:31:23 +0100


Brian Olewnick asked if anyone had heard:
> Braxton/Newton (Lauren)    Composition 192         Leo

One of the Ghost Trance compositions.  Braxton is playing repetitive
motifs, on his usual large arsenal of reeds, Newton is singing letters and
numbers.  I guess if you are interested in hearing this for 62 minutes,
pick it up.  It is... interesting? different?..., I don't think I will
listen to it often.  Not wholly unenjoyable, but low on my list of fave
Braxton's (as you know, Brian, that is a long list!)

Dan


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Artur Nowak" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Kang's theater of mineral NADES
Date: 06 May 1998 20:11:15 +0200

Can anybody share some feelings about Eyvind Kang's recent release?
I'm pretty confused about this music, some pieces are Zorn-filmworks-like
(good), some medieval (hmmm...), some done with reagge-dubs and vocals (grrrrr),
some are very oriental (yes!); it seems to be too eclectic to me. Kang is
supposed to be very promissing musician and composer - at least the Tzadik
propagandist professes so.

BTW: who is the guy, who writes the comments for Tzadik releases spine wrappers?

Artur

       ____________________________________________________________________
       Artur Nowak
       www.silesia.top.pl/~arno/emd/pl40/artists/f/frisell_bill/default.htm




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:    William York <[e-mail]>
Subject: Zappa/Watson
Date: 06 May 1998 21:30:01 -0400 (EDT)

As for ben Watson, while his writing is interesting and entertaining, I
don't put a lot of stock in his reviews because he can't get through more
than a few without citing Adorno or whatever.  Some of his reviews in the
Wire are pretty absurd.  Oh, but I definately wouldn't say he
underestimated the influence of Varese on FZ's music.  It seems like he
mentioned it on every other page.

Re: Zappa, I would think that if he had never recorded with Boulez or the
LSO his overall career would not be at much of a loss.  The whole idea of
being 'legitimate' or that classical music is by definition superior to
other forms really gets in the way, even with high culture/low culture
types like Zorn or Zappa.  While I like some of the things they've done in
classical settings, I think it's often more interesting and enjoyable to
hear them working with out ideas in more popular formats.  I think playing
"The Black Page" during a dance contest in front of a big rock crowd is a
bigger achievement than working with Boulez, and I would put almost any
Mothers album against any of his classical work.  But that's just my
perspective of course.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: ScottRussell <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Avant magazine
Date: 07 May 1998 07:35:34 +0100

--MimeMultipartBoundary
Content-Type: text/plain


> On Wed, 6 May 1998, Lang Thompson wrote:
>
> > The new issue of Cadence lists a few issues of a magazine called
> Avant.  Is
> > it worth getting and do the cassettes with it have any unreleased
> music?
>
> If it's the same magazine that I picked up a copy of recently, It's
> wonderful -- makes The Wire looks like Teen Beat.... Wow, looking at
> the
> Cadence listing for Avant issue 5, it looks like it's the one. I'm
> ordering ASAP. Thanks for the pointer!
>
I really feel I have to take issue with Joseph on this point. Avant (and
I'm assuming we're talking about the UK publication) is a worthy enough
magazine but it is seriously marred in two ways. Firstly it has the
WORST layouts I have ever seen in a magazine (and I speak as a former
print/design house professional). It is amateurishly laid out with too
much fussiness over  effects and esoteric typefaces. This is worsened by
an incomplete understanding of printing which means pages are often
difficult to read because of too much or too little ink coverage,
inappropriate choice of inks or simpy layouts which are too busy.

The second problem is the quality of the writing. The standard of many
articles in Avant is that of the enthusiastically amateurish.
Gramatically and syntactically many pieces simply do not read well at
all. I certainly disagree with your asessment that Avant makes The Wire
look like 'Teen Beat'. Whatever you may think of The Wire (it is
certainly esoteric, many of it's writers are deliberatley obtuse and
have their own agendas and it can run to 'pretentious') it is a mature
publication with writers who are capable of expressing arguments
(however outlandish) in a logical and cohesive manner (most of the
time!). It also has some of the best magazine design you could wish to
see, stylish but always legible which, lets face it is the point of  a
magazine.

I don't mean to dismiss Avant entirely, I'm glad to see another
publication try and address the outer fringes of music and I hope to
watch it develop into something really interesting, but it has a very
long way to go. Remember The Wire has been running for the best part of
twenty years!

My advice to others is seek out Avant by all means but don't mistake
it's earnestness for sophistication.

Scott Russell
--MimeMultipartBoundary--

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: BJOERN <[e-mail]>
Subject: american musicians wanted again
Date: 07 May 1998 10:39:54 +0200 (MSZ)

sorry,
of course i was talkin bout october 98 to may 99...not 97 to 98

BJOERN

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rusty Crump <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zappa/Watson
Date: 07 May 1998 08:20:45 -0500

>As for ben Watson, while his writing is interesting and entertaining, I
>don't put a lot of stock in his reviews because he can't get through more
>than a few without citing Adorno or whatever.  Some of his reviews in the
>Wire are pretty absurd.  Oh, but I definately wouldn't say he
>underestimated the influence of Varese on FZ's music.  It seems like he
>mentioned it on every other page.
>
>Re: Zappa, I would think that if he had never recorded with Boulez or the
>LSO his overall career would not be at much of a loss.  The whole idea of
>being 'legitimate' or that classical music is by definition superior to
>other forms really gets in the way, even with high culture/low culture
>types like Zorn or Zappa.  While I like some of the things they've done in
>classical settings, I think it's often more interesting and enjoyable to
>hear them working with out ideas in more popular formats.  I think playing
>"The Black Page" during a dance contest in front of a big rock crowd is a
>bigger achievement than working with Boulez, and I would put almost any
>Mothers album against any of his classical work.  But that's just my
>perspective of course.
>
>
>-

I agree with you, but with one addition. I have a hunch that if the Boulez
and LSO albums hadn't happened, "The Yellow Shark" would never have
occurred to the Ensemble Modern, and that would be a major loss to the FZ
canon. I have this image of someone in the Ensemble listening to one of the
LSO albums and saying, "This is scheisse. Wouldn't this be valuable if it
were done RIGHT!?"

Which brings up a question to the Zornoscenti on the list -- are there any
Zorn albums with which JZ was as unhappy about the playing as FZ was with
the LSO? It seems to me that JZ's had a lot more luck (or control) in that
department than FZ did.

But then there are transcendent moments like Uncle Meat, the Yellow Shark,
and the 1974 Helsinki concert. Wow!

Rusty Crump
Oxford, Mississippi



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: George Grella <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Music & Jargon
Date: 06 May 1998 08:52:17 -0800

Chris Hamilton writes:


> I started to write a lengthy, point-by-point criticism of George's
> criticisms of the Watson quote, but I decided it would be petty.  Two main
> points worth briefly mentioning were: (1) The quote is an excerpt from a
> vastly larger work, and shouldn't be taken as a complete critical
> discussion of Zappa's work.  (2) The quote compares Zappa negatively to
> Darmstadt composers specifically; George's eloquent defense of the breadth
> of contemporary European art music is thus misdirected, and in fact serves
> to support Watson's final point.  What really set me off was the
> following:
>
> On Mon, 4 May 1998, George Grella wrote regarding a lengthy Ben Watson
> quote:
>
> > His class-based comments are incoherent.  The symphony orchestra is the
> > traditional vehicle of expression for symphonic composers, not for an
> > economic/social class.  I can imagine the number of composers who would
> > have been amazed had they found themselves classed as bourgeois.  But
> > Watson can't seem to admit that music was created out of the desires and
> > ideas of the composers, not out of bourgeois demands.
>
> You objected to bringing ideology into discussions of music, but the
> romantic individualism you defend in the above is as much
> an ideology as Watson's Marxism.  Similarly you seem perfectly happy to
> use jargon in your criticisms of Watson, but you nail him for using
> different jargon.  It comes off (to me at least) as if you're trying to
> smuggle in your own ideology without actually arguing for it.  I doubt
> this is your intention, but you might want to be more careful about making
> presuppositions of your own when chastising others for theirs.
>
>      (I might add I think ideological lenses can sometimes shed light on
> music, so long as one isn't blinded to other perspectives by them.)
>
> Chris Hamilton
> Sensitive Former Marxist
>
> P.S. Where might I look in Varese's and Stravinsky's works for absurdity?
> I know some work by each, but just the big famous stuff, and I don't hear
> it there.
>

Chris, I understand that the quote from Ben Watson was an excerpt; I
can't, and wouldn't want to begin, comment on the entire
subject/article, what concerned me in the quote itself was the type of
jargon that not only obfuscates the issue - music - but makes no sense
in its own right.  It passes too frequently for criticism, IMO.  In that
respect I can only work with the context it provides me, i.e. Zappa vs
Darmstadt; if there was a discussion of the greater breadth of music in
the quote provided, obviously my reponse would have been different.

I have to completely disagree with your last full paragraph, though.  I
don't see how, in any way, the notion that composers create music out of
their own needs, interests and desires as autonomous human beings is
ideology.  It's reality, fact!  I'm speaking as a composer, firmly in
the contemporary context of the western tradition, but I am confident
that I can speak in general for composers from the initial beginnings of
the symphony orchestra in the Baroque to the present day.  Again,
composers who write for the orchestra write the pieces they write, the
bourgeoisie as a class is not writing squat for the orchestra.  This is
so obvious to me I'm baffled I have to point it out; it is the
individual doing the work, not the class system.

There's some implied aspects to this that I think are mistaken.  One is
the common misconception that composers are compelled, either directly
or implicitly, to write music that the bourgeois patrons of the
orchestra want to here.  This is not, nor never has been, the truth,
except perhaps for the most crave, forgettable composers.  The entire
history of orchestral music is full of instances where pieces have been
misunderstood and/or rejected by their contemporary audiences.  This is
hard to understand from our perspective, because most of that music is
so common to our listening experience, has had so much time to permeate
itself among listeners and other composers.  Also, the experimental
nature of much of the music of the past is now part of a history of
"archaic" techniques.  In it's day, the work of C.P.E. Bach was highly
experimental, Haydn [even while supported by the Emporer] was doing
deeply innovative and new things with the developing forms, Mozart was
commonly rejected and lay fallow for most of the 19th century, and
Beethoven was considered a shocking avant-gardist.  When Schumann's 2nd
Symphony premiered, no one had ever heard polyphony in that context
before, and the Berlioz "Symphony Fantastique" was beyond comprehension
to it's first audiences.  I could go on and on, listing works through
Bruckner, Mahler, Debussy, Stravinsky, Vaughn Williams [the 4th],
Sibelius, Ives [who was an insurance executive, no less!] al the way to
works by Scelsci, Kancheli, Zimmerman, Dutilleux and Vivier I have heard
performed in the past 12 months.  The symphony orchestra, especially in
its current state in American cities, is supported by mainly bourgeois
dollars, that is indisputable.  But composers who write music for it are
writing their own music, regardless of what the bourgeoisie, desires.  I
cannot see how this, when all the jargon is set aside, can be
questioned.  To do so, one would have to begin by defining/describing
the contemporary music the bourgeoisie wants to hear their orchestra
plays [as if they are even aware of contemporary music] and then prove
that composers are writing that music!

And regards your P.S., I first want to say I didn't mean to imply
absurdity in Varese, because I've never heard a sense of humor in his
work, but for Stravinsky, you can start with the "Grand March" of
"L'Histoire du Soldat," and look for the snippet of "Anchors Aweigh" in
"Concerto for Piano and Wind Instruments."  Of course, he's not the
first, there's a whole history of jokes and absurdity in music, with
some of the most famous examples being the Haydn "Farewell Symphony,"
Mozart's "Musical Joke," the entire third movement of the Mahler 1st
Symphony and a great deal of the work of Charles Ives.

gg


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Benjamin Pequet <[e-mail]>
Subject: Sharpish
Date: 06 May 1998 13:20:43 +0200

Stefan Verstraeten wrote:
>Someone on the list (also someone from Belgium, you know the country of
>Marc Dutroux and chocolate) asked for information concerning Elliot

I was rather asking for feed back than for information. Actually still
wondering about places of real discussion about... stuff. I mean places that
defend expressions and where voices can be heard. It's definitely not in the
medias or anywhere to be bought in stores, so if some of you have hints, I
would really like to hear.

In talking about the Sharp and saying he had been pretty mild that night I
didn't mean to denigrate or anything of that kind. Even if he had become
real bad me think it would be important and appropriate to feel free to talk
about it, strategic to talk about it, nice to feel free to talk about it.
And by the way I had a good time at that concert, thanks.

I repeat I am relatively new to the list.
Everyone on this list seems to be very cautious about how expressing their
opinions and I appreciate this a lot. I am amazed at the knowledge of some
and how you seem to be able to keep the pace at which the cds are released,
and how you can afford to buy them.

Just something hit me though, actually before I posted my thing the other
day. I had chills everywhere reading this:

Steve Smith about some concert:
>certain I was clear that I enjoyed the concert (if I hadn't I guarantee I
>wouldn't have written about it for the Zornlist or anoyone else), and that in
>fact there's no chance I would ever have missed it.  I don't recall writing

If you hadn't enjoyed the concert you wouldn't have written about it ?
Unfortunately I don't know whose concert you were talking about, that's for
sure that if you happen to see an insignificant band you won't feel the need
to talk about that.
But what's behind what you write ? Are we talking here about the music we
like, the music we enjoy listening to, the music we think is important to
support for some reason, or what ?
I am really wondering. And to whom asked why Zorn ? I couldn't come up with
an answer (have you noticed all the answers to that question were a couple
of lines long ?)
I ask myself the question quite often, though not in these terms. Generally
I just go through my tapes, pick one and start listening - thanks God not
necessarily a Zorn thing.

I find a Sharp more consistent than a Zorn for example (regarding to his
discography). But I would be soon short on words if I had to explain that.
Must be as many reasons to listen to Zorn than moments in my day, and the
same probably goes for all of us - and probably many more reasons to not
listen to him.

Because he can play anything ? Because he has around him the greatest
musicians of this time and seems to know exactly what to ask each of them ?
Because he blows hard ?
Because he thinks he's an angel ? Because he really is something of that kind ?

Anyone some insight about this ?

On the list lately also I found things that seem to me totally outrageous,
like:

>Patrice, my point is that I regard Boulez, critically, as a musician.  I
>don't know the man personally, I can't pass judgement on his aesthetic
>and bureaucratic politics, nor do I care to.  It doesn't matter to me,
>because that kind of thing quickly becomes a contest over who belongs to

and :

>found that totally unfair, on both counts.  Unless you know the man,
>regard him as a musician.  You are criticizing him as you see him as a
>public figure, which is subjective and emotional, all arguing by
>assertion; not just what Boulez did, but how you feel about it as an

Alright George Grella, only the music... no politics.
Have you heard, all ? Let's not get into subjective or emotional about music
then. About politics well ?

But isn't music a political thing, when someone for example (why am I
thinking of Boulez ?) holds such a position as the one occupied by Boulez in
France ?
Or isn't it a political statement to be listening to some kind of music than
another ? Why on earth are we on a Zorn list ?

Jeff Schuth wrote:
>here, are either about recent CD purchases or favorite artists.  While
>this is interesting, I was wondering why no one talks about the music
>itself.  I guess I am just curious why everyone here is drawn to this
>sort of music.  I'm not even sure myself.  This music obviously cannot

About Boulez, isn't that obvious to everybody that there is Boulez the great
conductor and Boulez the old fart ? Of course he's not totally bad, for
example I remember him quoting Henri Michaux and using some in his works.

But can't we lift the debate to some kind of objectivity ? I know we don't
have many models for objectivity around us, especially about questions of
music, but...

Patrice Roussel,
I think you shouldn't lose your time argueing with GG. Your patience and
gentleness, your consideration here are admirable. (I think GG is Pierre
Boulez subscribed for some reason on this list under a nickname.)

George Grella,your last statements are simply dreadful.

>interested in the music.  What you're missing is that Boulez is the
>great icon ]love him or hate him] of the high Modernist International
>Style, the aim of which was to break down nationalistic qualities in
>music, so it's strange that your comments seem so wrapped up in French
>navel-gazing.  Boulez is like Elliot Carter or Stockhausen is so many
>ways, not just in terms of exemplifying that international style, but in
>engendering so much animosity in their own countries through their
>personal success.  More power to them, I say.

The High Modernist International Style ?

What you seem to be have missed is that the society became post-modern
around 1950 and that we already need to find alternatives to the post-modern
views on this society. Yes, things changed a lot around the middle of this
century... That's by the way for a part why I see so many things in Zorn's
work. And not at all in Boulez's statements. I think we are talking about
very different things, that Boulez himself through his career contributed to
hold as separate as he could.

Come back to me with a definition of fascism will you ? I always consider
useful the one that states fascism as the violence of power.

But please now don't misunderstand what I write, I'm not accusing anyone of
anything.
Wow. Anyway enough for now.
Thanks for your attention if you read.

Benj






-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Robert A. Pleshar" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Avant magazine
Date: 06 May 1998 12:27:12 -0500 (CDT)

Hi-

Does anyone have the subscription address for this magazine. I'd like to try
to get my library to subscribe to it.

Thanks,
Rob


At 10:31 AM 5/6/98 -0500, Joseph S. Zitt wrote:
>On Wed, 6 May 1998, Lang Thompson wrote:
>
>> The new issue of Cadence lists a few issues of a magazine called Avant.  Is
>> it worth getting and do the cassettes with it have any unreleased music?
>
>If it's the same magazine that I picked up a copy of recently, It's
>wonderful -- makes The Wire looks like Teen Beat.... Wow, looking at the
>Cadence listing for Avant issue 5, it looks like it's the one. I'm
>ordering ASAP. Thanks for the pointer!

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Joseph S. Zitt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Avant magazine
Date: 07 May 1998 09:18:44 -0500 (CDT)

From the reactions of others, I may have been unduly swayed by the one
issue I've seen so far. I didn't mind the writing (but most of what I read
nowadays is on the Net, so i may have grown too forgiving of inept
writing). The layout is problematic -- but compared to arrogant botches
like *urp* Raygun, it's the essence of clarity.

I didn't mean to slam The Wire -- I read it religiously, and hope to
subscribe soon. I'd love to subscribe to Avant, too, if I could figure out
how (the issue I have doesn't say); meanwhile I'm ordering some back
issues from Cadence, which may give a clearer idea of what the zine is
like as a whole.

- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|





-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Scott Handley" <[e-mail]>
Subject: kaoru abe
Date: 07 May 1998 10:00:29 PDT

After hearing the Ground Zero "cover" of a Kaoru Abe improvisation (?)
on PLAYS STANDARDS, I'm curious about him.  I hear he was nuts...extreme
noise terror!

What does everyone think of tis guy?  I really want to find couple of
the DIW records, but forcedexposure says they're out of print.  Any
light to shed on this?  Any FAVORITES?

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Avant /magazines
Date: 07 May 1998 14:05:38 -0300

Scott Russell wrote:
"The standard of many articles in Avant is that of the enthusiastically
amateurish"

By the way; which is/are the best magazine/s zornies (worldwide) choose
concerning all the music?

-Hugo

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: George Grella <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zappa/Watson
Date: 07 May 1998 10:38:18 -0800

William York writes:

> Re: Zappa, I would think that if he had never recorded with Boulez or the
> LSO his overall career would not be at much of a loss.  The whole idea of
> being 'legitimate' or that classical music is by definition superior to
> other forms really gets in the way, even with high culture/low culture
> types like Zorn or Zappa.  While I like some of the things they've done in
> classical settings, I think it's often more interesting and enjoyable to
> hear them working with out ideas in more popular formats.  I think playing
> "The Black Page" during a dance contest in front of a big rock crowd is a
> bigger achievement than working with Boulez, and I would put almost any
> Mothers album against any of his classical work.  But that's just my
> perspective of course.

That's an excellent perspective, IMO.  One of the big things I like
about the Zappa orchestral music is that it's just his music, stuff he
wanted to do, that was well written and got played.  It came out of his
personal ideas and desires and was unselfconscious, not like the kind of
stuff that comes out of the demonstration of the musician as the
"serious" type, not just the "popular" type, wherein the attempt to
prove a point makes for same bad music that betrays the point
completely.  See; Joe Jackson and the horrible John Cale settings of
Dylan Thomas poetry.

gg

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Craig Rath <[e-mail]>
Subject: Magazines
Date: 07 May 1998 13:02:08 -0500


>By the way; which is/are the best magazine/s zornies (worldwide) choose
>concerning all the music?

I would definitely agree with the many previous people who seem to like the
Wire.  I've never been disappointed in it.

Another mag which used to be rather good but is losing a lot of it's appeal
for me is Option.  It used to have a lot of articles on the more
avant/unusual artists, but is now featuring mostly the "alternative" scene.
 The one thing it still has going for it is more album reviews than any
other mag I've read.  almost a quarter of each issue is devoted to reviews
(Most of which seem to not have much to do with the slant of the rest of
the magazine - while their articles tend to be about people like Trent
Reznor, the reviews are of albums by Zorn or Haino and the like).  Now,
while I tend to not always agree with or even pay attention to the opinions
of the reviewers, it is a good place to find out what is out there.  The
only problem is that they tend to review many things LONG after they have
been released (over a year in some cases).  Even though the rest of the
magazine seems doomed to become another in the Rolling Stone / Spin lineup,
at least it has some useful information left (and it only comes out every
other month, so it doesn't cost a lot to keep up).






-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Joseph S. Zitt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Music & Jargon
Date: 07 May 1998 13:18:25 -0500 (CDT)

On Wed, 6 May 1998, George Grella wrote:

> I have to completely disagree with your last full paragraph, though.  I
> don't see how, in any way, the notion that composers create music out of
> their own needs, interests and desires as autonomous human beings is
> ideology.  It's reality, fact!  I'm speaking as a composer, firmly in
> the contemporary context of the western tradition, but I am confident
> that I can speak in general for composers from the initial beginnings of
> the symphony orchestra in the Baroque to the present day.  Again,
> composers who write for the orchestra write the pieces they write, the
> bourgeoisie as a class is not writing squat for the orchestra.  This is
> so obvious to me I'm baffled I have to point it out; it is the
> individual doing the work, not the class system.

For a clear explanation of the orchestra as bourgeois capitalist whatever,
see Chris Cutler's book "File Under Popular".

As a composer myself, much of what I have written is not necessarily "out
of [my] own needs, interests and desires as autonomous human beings" but
due to requests from others, writing a work to their specifications.
Many other write to commissions. It's a valid way of writing, but doesn't
seem to fit into your "reality, fact". (The American mythos of
individualism, so prevalent on the Net, sometimes gets in the way of
people seeing that some people do, indeed, do things to help other
people.)

And writing a piece and getting it heard are radically different
situations. A fellow composer was telling me  few days ago about a piece
he's been writing for the past few years involving a full orchestra, tape,
and 40 readers seated among the audience. He may well write this
marvelously, but I'll bet my hat that, within the current
artistic/economic landscape, nobody ever hears it.

- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Brian Olewnick <[e-mail]>
Subject: Whitehead book
Date: 07 May 1998 18:32:36 -0400

A poster on rmb mentioned a new book by Kevin Whitehead covering, I
think, the Dutch jazz scene. Anyone know of its availability in the NYC
area, publisher, etc? Any reviews? (You finished yet, Dan?).

Brian Olewnick

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: JonAbbey2 <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re:  Whitehead book
Date: 07 May 1998 21:31:13 EDT


In a message dated 5/7/98 6:35:12 PM, [e-mail] wrote:

<<A poster on rmb mentioned a new book by Kevin Whitehead covering, I
think, the Dutch jazz scene. Anyone know of its availability in the NYC
area, publisher, etc? Any reviews? (You finished yet, Dan?).

Brian Olewnick>>

The book is called New Dutch Swing and is on Billboard Books. I got a free
copy today, so I'm not sure as to its availability although I had heard
something about a book release party in NYC in conjunction with the Clusone
Trio's appearance next week. You might try giving Billboard Books a call;
they're at 1515 Broadway in NYC. After a very brief glance through it, if you
think you're interested , you probably are. It looks pretty darned
comprehensive and does in fact cover the Dutch jazz scene.

So does anyone know if the Clusone are actually playing NYC next Tuesday or
are they just playing the Knitting Factory on Wednesday?

Jon

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Christopher Hamilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zappa/Watson
Date: 08 May 1998 00:19:10 -0400 (EDT)



On Wed, 6 May 1998, William York wrote:

> The whole idea of
> being 'legitimate' or that classical music is by definition superior to
> other forms really gets in the way, even with high culture/low culture
> types like Zorn or Zappa.

Maybe especially.  There's a danger of treating some of their work as
merely conceptual art if one focuses on this.

Chris Hamilton


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Magazines
Date: 08 May 1998 00:26:54 -0400

Craig Rath wrote:

> >By the way; which is/are the best magazine/s zornies (worldwide) choose
> >concerning all the music?
> [snip]
> Another mag which used to be rather good but is losing a lot of it's appeal
> for me is Option.  It used to have a lot of articles on the more
> avant/unusual artists, but is now featuring mostly the "alternative" scene.
>  The one thing it still has going for it is more album reviews than any
> other mag I've read.

The problem in my opinion is that many of their better writers seem to have
jumped ship.  And some of those who are left writing about adventurous jazz
seem to have little knowledge of and no real regard for the music itself.  I
enjoy Russ Summers, but as an example of what's wrong with the magazine, try
this passage from the March/April issue's review of Matt Shipp and Joe Morris's
"Thesis"......

"People who are really into this sort of thing might be able to tell you, in a
blindfold test, that this was in fact not Cecil Taylor and Derek Bailey.  It's
difficult to know how they would know that..."

Now I'm as guilty of musicial elitism as anyone, but any writer who would make
that statement should under no circumstances be in a position to do so.

Lately I've been enjoying Magnet as the best substitute for Option.  Even so,
although their jazz/improv writer is excellent, the magazine as a whole is not
quite at the level Option once occupied about 11-12 years ago, when they put
Zorn on the cover... literally a magazine that changed my life.  Also found out
about :Zoviet-France: in those pages.

The Wire remains the staple of my diet.

Steve Smith
[e-mail]


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: An apology to Litweiler
Date: 08 May 1998 00:42:00 -0400

Just a thought...

After my swipe at John Litweiler during the Roscoe Mitchell thread, I
went back to the book to put the passage David quoted into context.

I still think the line David quoted is pretty puffery, but it follows a
passage of pretty interesting and detailed analysis of the piece in
question.

I still don't care for Mitchell's "L-R-G" but I've gotta say, "The
Freedom Principle" remains an outstanding book and required reading for
anyone looking for a nicely written introduction to the major innovators
of avant garde jazz.  Its exploration of Roscoe Mitchell's work in
particular is fascinating and full of detail, and no one should avoid
the book based on my own mean-spirited jabs made during the heat of a
rebuttal.

Steve Smith
[e-mail]


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Magazines
Date: 08 May 1998 00:54:54 -0400

Steve Smith wrote:

> I enjoy Russ Summers, but as an example of what's wrong with the magazine, try
> this passage from the March/April issue's review of Matt Shipp and Joe Morris's
> "Thesis"......

Oh MAN, did that read badly.  It makes it look as if I'm saying that Russ Summers
wrote the stupid review quote that followed.  No!  No!  Not at all.  What I meant
to state was that I enjoy Russ but that other jazz reviewers are writing some
grievous text.

Steve Smith
[e-mail]


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Christopher Hamilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Music & Jargon (a bit long)
Date: 08 May 1998 00:57:26 -0400 (EDT)



On Wed, 6 May 1998, George Grella wrote:

> I have to completely disagree with your last full paragraph, though.  I
> don't see how, in any way, the notion that composers create music out of
> their own needs, interests and desires as autonomous human beings is
> ideology.  It's reality, fact!

This is only obviously right if all you mean by this is that it's the
composer who composes music.  That's trivially true, and so surely
couldn't be what Watson is denying.  But your use of the word "autonomous"
suggests that you think composers compose freely (in some sense).  Free
from what?  Bourgeois values?  I don't think it's obviously true that
anyone alive today does anything free from those.  (I realize this may not
be what you have in mind.  You're using jargon here yourself, I think.)

> Again,
> composers who write for the orchestra write the pieces they write, the
> bourgeoisie as a class is not writing squat for the orchestra.  This is
> so obvious to me I'm baffled I have to point it out; it is the
> individual doing the work, not the class system.

If you think, as Marxists like Watson typically do, that individuals are
always part of the class system, it can be both.  (Compare with your last
statement "It is the individual auditing my tax returns, not the I.R.S.")

> There's some implied aspects to this that I think are mistaken.  One is
> the common misconception that composers are compelled, either directly
> or implicitly, to write music that the bourgeois patrons of the
> orchestra want to here.

Well, if they want their music performed and listened to, someone had
better want to hear it.  But the claim that orchestral music functions as
bourgeois expression could be more complicated than this.  It could be
that the composer's own artistic values are determined by bourgeois
hegemony.  It would be perfectly consistent with this for the bourgeoisie
themselves not to like the end product.  (Watson is, even in the full
work, vague about this, and had you just criticized him for this, and not
gone on to give your own vague take, we wouldn't be having this
discussion.)

     My point isn't, of course, that Watson's right and you're wrong, but
that you're both invoking ideologically packed views of how composition
works, which is fine with me in both cases, so long as nobody assumes
without further argument that either one of you is onto the One Truth
About Music.  (Nor are yours the only two ideologies that might have
something to say about this.)

Chris Hamilton



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Dragon -------- Frog)
Subject: Re: Magazines
Date: 08 May 1998 06:21:51 -0700

>>By the way; which is/are the best magazine/s zornies (worldwide) choose
concerning all the music?

THE WIRE

CADENCE

CODA

OPTION

In that order. I know OPTION sucks, but I still find a nugget in each
issue important enough to keep me subscribed. THE WIRE is invaluable
across genres. CADENCE and CODA are essential for the 'creative and
improvised' end of the spectrum.

DF Sinner

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Sulacco <[e-mail]>
Subject: Only Slightly Related to Zorn
Date: 08 May 1998 09:58:07 EDT

i don't know why this kind of thing bugs me, but it does. i was thumbing
through the latest issue of Guitar (i believe that is the mag) because it had
an article about Buckethead in it. it was a little one page deal where it
discusses "Buckethead nee Herbie Ross." i don't know who is kidding who, but
Herbie Ross is not Buckethead's real name. at least, not how its listed in the
notes for Hope You Like Our New Direction by Henry Kaiser. i don't know if he
told them that on purpose or what, but if he didn't, where did this name come
from? i thought Herbie was his robot buddy. i don't know if he wants to keep
his name a secret or what. any ideas? its kinda silly, but i'm curious, and i
figure if anyone can help me out, it would be one of you guys...

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Spirer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Only Slightly Related to Zorn
Date: 08 May 1998 07:08:03 -0700

He doesn't want to have his real name known.

At 09:58 AM 5/8/98 EDT, Sulacco wrote:
>i don't know why this kind of thing bugs me, but it does. i was thumbing
>through the latest issue of Guitar (i believe that is the mag) because it had
>an article about Buckethead in it. it was a little one page deal where it
>discusses "Buckethead nee Herbie Ross." i don't know who is kidding who, but
>Herbie Ross is not Buckethead's real name. at least, not how its listed in
the
>notes for Hope You Like Our New Direction by Henry Kaiser. i don't know if he
>told them that on purpose or what, but if he didn't, where did this name come
>from? i thought Herbie was his robot buddy. i don't know if he wants to keep
>his name a secret or what. any ideas? its kinda silly, but i'm curious, and i
>figure if anyone can help me out, it would be one of you guys...
>
>-
>
>
>
Jeff Spirer
B&W Photos: http://www.pomegranates.com/frame/spirer/
Color and B&W Photos: http://www.hyperreal.org/~jeffs/gallery.html
Axiom/Material: http://www.hyperreal.org/axiom/

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Magazines
Date: 08 May 1998 08:23:19 -0700


On Fri, 08 May 1998 00:26:54 -0400  Steve Smith wrote:
>
> Craig Rath wrote:
>
> > >By the way; which is/are the best magazine/s zornies (worldwide) choose
> > >concerning all the music?
> > [snip]
> > Another mag which used to be rather good but is losing a lot of it's appeal
> > for me is Option.  It used to have a lot of articles on the more
> > avant/unusual artists, but is now featuring mostly the "alternative" scene.
> >  The one thing it still has going for it is more album reviews than any
> > other mag I've read.
>
> The problem in my opinion is that many of their better writers seem to have
> jumped ship.  And some of those who are left writing about adventurous jazz
> seem to have little knowledge of and no real regard for the music itself.  I

Not to mention big blunders which show that the actual staff of the magazine
has completely forgotten about the awareness of a good part of their readers.

I remember the pathetic person in charge of letters to the magazine. One day
somebody sent a very smart letter related to Peter Greenaway; the OPTION person
did not get it at all and embarrassed himself with the dumbest comment I have
ever read!

Also I am wondering how they choose their reviewers. Few years ago a pathetic
one got a batch of improv/noise he had no clue at all (Keiji Haino, trombone 4tet,
etc). His reviews were totally embarrassing.

If you write in OPTION, you should not assume (like a record store seller) that
everytime somebody makes a comment you don't understand, that person has no
clue. Being a writer in a magazine does not mean a lot.

I also miss the old OPTION (and EAR),

And talking about good people leaving the boat, Stuart Kremsky was invited to
leave OPTION because he was not representative of the new magazine's direction
(which is currently: don't miss any fashion and react in real-time (which means
at least 2 months) to changes).

But the magazine is still hard to dismiss and brings quite a lot, but not anymore
in experimental/avant music. I always wait for it, even though I go through it
in barely 20 mn.

    Patrice.

> enjoy Russ Summers, but as an example of what's wrong with the magazine, try
> this passage from the March/April issue's review of Matt Shipp and Joe Morris's
> "Thesis"......
>
> "People who are really into this sort of thing might be able to tell you, in a
> blindfold test, that this was in fact not Cecil Taylor and Derek Bailey.  It's
> difficult to know how they would know that..."

Wow, this is really dumb in that case.

But as I always say (and getting old does not help :-), let's not forget that
the confusion of music writers (or they blunders) is just the tip of the
iceberg of the audience in general.

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Nastifyer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Paraphrase/Yoshihide recs
Date: 08 May 1998 11:25:42 EDT

All right, it's been almost a week but I wanted to thank those folks who
recommended Berne's screwgun releases to me. Berne was selling this stuff
cheap at the Paraphrase concert here in DC Sunday night. I got unwound ($25),
saturation point, discretion, and the Ducret disk (all $10 each). There is a
definite difference in recording techniques between these and the JMT
releases, but its more a matter of personal preference than good or bad. The
music, which is what's really important, is great. As Brent mentioned, the
Ducret disc has some very interesting artwork. I think this artist, Jonathon
Rosen, did some artwork/animation for the Residents' "Bad Day at The Midway"
CDROM. I seem to remember those floating mechanical spanking disembodied heads
somewhere in there.
As was also previously noted, the Paraphrase concert was unbelievable, esp.
Rainey. There was some discussion earlier about Berne's compositional work, as
compared to the pure improvisatory nature of Paraphrase. I, surprisingly,
found the listening experience of hearing Paraphrase not that much different
from listening to Berne's composed/improvised work. I think this is because
some of what Berne writes for ensemble is intertwining lines, esp. for the
horns. With paraphrase, Tim is the only horn and so he's playing similar sort
of stuff without the need for composition. I am probably not articulating this
very well, I apologize. The other thing that accounts for this similarity is
the remarkable sensitivity between the three musicians. Although I like what
Derek Bailey does with company etc., there is something to be said for
improvising night after night with the same musicians. Also, I must reiterate,
Rainey is the fucking bomb!!! Everybody should catch this band or get the CD.
Drew Gress is no sloucher either, by any means.
On a totally unrelated note, I want to purchase some more of Otomo's stuff.
I'm particularly interested in the stuff he did with Phew. Does anybody own
any of that, and if so what does it sound like? Also, what's Bass Army sound
like, I'm very intrigued by this as well.
thanks,
EGG

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Dragon -------- Frog)
Subject: Re: Magazines
Date: 08 May 1998 08:37:44 -0700


On Fri, 08 May 1998 08:23:19 -0700 "Patrice L. Roussel"
<[e-mail]> writes:

>And talking about good people leaving the boat, Stuart Kremsky was
>invited to
>leave OPTION because he was not representative of the new magazine's
>direction

I have found Kremsky rather dismissive of most of the music I like.
Rather mainstream tastes.

DF Sinner

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:    William York <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Performances of Zorn compared w/ Zappa
Date: 08 May 1998 12:06:37 -0400 (EDT)

I may be wrong but the only Zorn CD I've seen or heard which was performed
by people other than NYC (or Japanese) musicians is Angelus Novus, which
was well done and the performers seemed to put a lot more energy into it
than the average classical-type performance.  The Ensemble Modern/ Yellow
Shark seems somewhat comparable to me.

I think Zorn has had better luck because he has worked with people that he
is familiar with and who are creative musicians.  With Zappa, they could
all play but their creative certainly has not always been so impressive,
as their solo albums show (there's a LONG list of hideous albums there)

But, Zorn hasn't worked with a 100 piece orch. has he?

Sorry if this is basic or redundant...


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re[2]: Performances of Zorn compared w/ Zappa
Date: 08 May 1998 18:04:27 UT

<<
But, Zorn hasn't worked with a 100 piece orch. has he?
>>

I seem to remember that just recently he premiered something for full orchestra,
but I forget.  Also, that it might be recorded (hopefully?)

PeterR

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Magazines
Date: 08 May 1998 13:26:54 -0400 (EDT)

    Best sources for jazz/new improvised music are Cadence and CODA,
which should be read monthly or bi-monthly as the case may be. The Wire
has some interesting sections, but too often the feature stories are on
flavor-of-the-moment "pop-alt" groups. There's sometimes good stuff in
downbeat, Jazz Times (the most conservative) and Jazziz (the most pop,
though it did have Matthew Shipp on the cover this year). Overall, though,
glossy jazz mags are in such a precarious financial situations that the
advertisers (i.e. the major companies) have more of an influence then
they should.

My perspective from reading these (and other) rags for 35 plus years

Ken Waxman
[e-mail]

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Magazines
Date: 08 May 1998 13:38:47 -0400 (EDT)


>
> I have found Kremsky rather dismissive of most of the music I like.
> Rather mainstream tastes.
>
> DF Sinner
>
> -


So let me get this right. If a reviewer doesn't like the music you like,
he's not any good? Sorta reminds me of the letters poor music journalists
have to put up with the day after they've expressed reservations about a
concert. The letters are usually signed "a great fan" and start  "I don't
know what concert X saw last night, but the one I saw with Y was the
greatest show ever in the universe..."

Ken Waxman
[e-mail]
(whose first jazz reviews appeared in the Gazette's second edition
in 1971 when they'd remake the obit page to fit in extra stuff from that
night)

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dan Given <[e-mail]>
Subject: re: Whitehead book
Date: 08 May 1998 14:09:32 +0100

>From: Brian Olewnick <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Whitehead book

>A poster on rmb mentioned a new book by Kevin Whitehead covering, I
>think, the Dutch jazz scene. Anyone know of its availability in the NYC
>area, publisher, etc? Any reviews? (You finished yet, Dan?).


Not finished yet, about 1/2 way through.  It give lots of info on many of
the important musicians, their backgrounds, etc.  Easy to read, lots of
fun. Combination history, oral history, criticism.  Not the normal "these
people are wonderful" type of bio.  At one point he says there hasn't been
a good Breuker album since sometime in the 80's, that Kollektief shows have
become boring and Breuker needs to dump them and start up a quartet again
to get some inspiration back.  He describes Mengelberg's playing during
some ICP show as drivel.  I like it.  He shows the bad (lots of it) as well
as the good.  Lots of stuff about the conflicts between Han, Misha, and
Willem.

My main criticsm is that it focusses on the Amsterdam scene exclusively,
people who are associated with Mengelberg, Bennink, Andriessen and Breuker.
 There is no mention of Luc Houtkamp or Gert-Jan Prins, and the rest of
that X-OR bunch, who I think deserve some recognition.

My other criticism, not of the book but of the world in general, is the
amout of music that Whitehead discusses which I know I will never get to
hear.  All those ICP records, the old BVHaast material, some label called
VARAJAZZ that sounds like it has good stuff...

A good companion piece to this book is the ICP 30 years book that comes as
the packaging for the MiHa disc last year.  It has an essay by Whitehead,
as well as cover photos of all the records on te ICP label.  And a damn
good Bennink/Mengelberg duet album as well.

Dan


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Willem Breuker, was Re: Whitehead book
Date: 08 May 1998 15:35:27 -0500



     Dan wrote:

>Not finished yet, about 1/2 way through.  It give lots of info on many of
>the important musicians, their backgrounds, etc.  Easy to read, lots of
>fun. Combination history, oral history, criticism.  Not the normal "these
>people are wonderful" type of bio.  At one point he says there hasn't been
>a good Breuker album since sometime in the 80's, that Kollektief shows
>have become boring and Breuker needs to dump them and start up a quartet
>again to get some inspiration back.

Hmmm, that sounds like a valid point. While I have enormous love and
admiration for Breuker's music, the band has gotten a bit stale over the
last decade (Though I'd differentiate between the Kollektief in its aspect
as jazz band and its work as a 'repertoire' group; as the latter, it still
produces fine work like 'Metropolis' and 'Parade'). I wouldn't go so far as
to say the live shows have become boring--I've found them far better than
the recorded work in recent years--but the schtick has certainly worn thin.
They're doing some of the same routines that they did in 1978 and, while
initially very funny, well, once is enough (though I retain fond memories
of trumpeter Andy Altenfelder surreptitiously filling his mute with mineral
water then emptying some 'saliva' on the front row!). The Kollektief does
still contain a _lot_ of incredible players, who go largely unrecognized;
for example, for my money, Altenfelder and Boy Raaymakers are easily the
two greatest trumpet players around who almost no one has heard of. Anyway,
for WB to return to a quartet or other small group might be a nice change
of pace--isn't Leo Cuypers back playing again?

Zorn-related question: Back when JZ was releasing 'Big Gundown',
'Spillane', etc., one of the first connections made by my internal
similarities engine was to Breuker. For years Breuker had been leaping from
style to (hitherto) unrelated style over the course of single pieces.
However, I've never heard Zorn cite Breuker as an influence. Considering
how he's name-checked virtually every other musician alive or dead, this
strikes me as curious.

By the way, Breuker is tentatively scheduled to play in NYC on June 24. I
think this may be within the JVC festival and, at a guess, I imagine it
might be for free in Damrosch Park.

Brian Olewnick






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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rusty Crump <[e-mail]>
Subject: Magazines (& reviews & reviewers)
Date: 08 May 1998 15:09:22 -0500

>>
>> I have found Kremsky rather dismissive of most of the music I like.
>> Rather mainstream tastes.
>>
>> DF Sinner
>>

>So let me get this right. If a reviewer doesn't like the music you like,
>he's not any good? Sorta reminds me of the letters poor music journalists
>have to put up with the day after they've expressed reservations about a
>concert. The letters are usually signed "a great fan" and start  "I don't
>know what concert X saw last night, but the one I saw with Y was the
>greatest show ever in the universe..."
>
>Ken Waxman
>[e-mail]
>(whose first jazz reviews appeared in the Gazette's second edition
>in 1971 when they'd remake the obit page to fit in extra stuff from that
>night)
>
>-

A valid point. A critic or reviewer is most valuable not when they confirm
how much of a cool dude I am by liking stuff I like, but rather when the
tastes they express are so consistent that I know whether to buy/avoid
based on them. But even more importantly, they have to have the writerly
chops to be able to get across in words what a recording sounds like, feels
like, tastes like...all that stuff.

I get a little irritated with the philosophy (held by Zappa, perfected by
Zorn) that the only good critic is a dead critic. Good reviewers provide a
valuable service to folks like me, not the least of which is discographic
-- just to alert us to the existence of material we wouldn't otherwise know
about.

Even the Tzadik web site attempts to get across a sense of what the music
in question is like and what it's about, IN WORDS. But Zorn has shown
"strong evidence of hostile aggression"* towards anyone so pathetic as to
write about music rather than make music. I wonder if the perfume of a
hypocrite's burning flesh would be so different.

A lot of what passes for music reviewing and criticism has devolved into a
clever (perhaps Christgauesque) phrase and a couple of comparisons, like
"This new group is reminiscent of My Bloody Valentine if Elvis Costello
were the lead singer." That sort of crap does nothing for me, and it's why
I've stopped buying music magazines except for the occasional issue of The
Wire (that, and reading Option on the rack then putting it back). In that
regard, I'm completely behind JZ's and FZ's lack of respect for critics and
reviewers insofar as what they do WASTES MY TIME. Time is the only valuable
thing I have (except for my copies of Fantastic Four #48-50).

BUT!! I have to say the Penguin Guide to Jazz on CD is the most successful
volume of reviews and criticism I've ever seen. It was more of a
page-turner than the most exciting, potboiling, testosterone-soaked crime
novel in existence. For me, that is.

So, that leads to a question: Does anybody know when the next edition of
the Penguin Guide is going to be published? I can't wait to read a more
thorough assessment of Zorn in light of his last four or five years' work.

Ramblingly,
Rusty Crump
Oxford, Mississippi

PS -- Bonus points to whoever can guess what order I wrote the above
paragraphs.



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: George Grella <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Music & Jargon (a bit long)
Date: 08 May 1998 13:18:26 -0800

Chris Hamilton writes:


> > I have to completely disagree with your last full paragraph, though.  I
> > don't see how, in any way, the notion that composers create music out of
> > their own needs, interests and desires as autonomous human beings is
> > ideology.  It's reality, fact!
>
> This is only obviously right if all you mean by this is that it's the
> composer who composes music.  That's trivially true, and so surely
> couldn't be what Watson is denying.  But your use of the word "autonomous"
> suggests that you think composers compose freely (in some sense).  Free
> from what?  Bourgeois values?  I don't think it's obviously true that
> anyone alive today does anything free from those.  (I realize this may not
> be what you have in mind.  You're using jargon here yourself, I think.)
>

By autonomous I mean that the composer makes his/her own artistic
decision based on their own artistic ideas.  Of course, these ideas come
about through the complex blend of education, experience, environment,
i.e. living.  Bourgeois values, whether accepted or rejected, are part
of that.  But to say that music expressed via the composer is therefore
an expression of bourgeois values [even in the most abstract sense] is
far too broad; "epater le bourgeoisie" depends on the existence of the
object, but expresses the opposite of what the object stands for.
Although he lives in a bourgeois world [in general], I cannot see how
Charles Gayle's music is bourgeois in any way, for example.


> > Again,
> > composers who write for the orchestra write the pieces they write, the
> > bourgeoisie as a class is not writing squat for the orchestra.  This is
> > so obvious to me I'm baffled I have to point it out; it is the
> > individual doing the work, not the class system.
>
> If you think, as Marxists like Watson typically do, that individuals are
> always part of the class system, it can be both.  (Compare with your last
> statement "It is the individual auditing my tax returns, not the I.R.S.")
>

I'm sure you can tell that I think in no way like a Marxist!  I think
that individuals can be part of a class system, but that they can also,
through self-awareness, step outside that system if they choose to, if
they reject those values, say, as discussed above.  I especially think
of Harry Partch here.


> > There's some implied aspects to this that I think are mistaken.  One is
> > the common misconception that composers are compelled, either directly
> > or implicitly, to write music that the bourgeois patrons of the
> > orchestra want to here.
>
> Well, if they want their music performed and listened to, someone had
> better want to hear it.  But the claim that orchestral music functions as
> bourgeois expression could be more complicated than this.  It could be
> that the composer's own artistic values are determined by bourgeois
> hegemony.  It would be perfectly consistent with this for the bourgeoisie
> themselves not to like the end product.  (Watson is, even in the full
> work, vague about this, and had you just criticized him for this, and not
> gone on to give your own vague take, we wouldn't be having this
> discussion.)
>
>      My point isn't, of course, that Watson's right and you're wrong, but
> that you're both invoking ideologically packed views of how composition
> works, which is fine with me in both cases, so long as nobody assumes
> without further argument that either one of you is onto the One Truth
> About Music.  (Nor are yours the only two ideologies that might have
> something to say about this.)
>

Granted, peformance is a whole other issue, very problematic.  Again,
though, the individual composer can decide, damn it all, that they're
going to write what they want, and not try and pander, and then work
hard to get performances, or at least work hard on their music and be
patient for the public results.  Examples again; Ives, Nancarrow, Cage.
It can be done.  The composers artistic values may be determined in
regard to bourgeois hegemony, but the result can embrace or reject.  It
may start with the bourgeoisie, but can end with the individual.

If you want to call it an ideology, what some have described as the
romantic artistic hero, the American individual, go ahead.  There will
always be a crucial difference for me, though; while Watson's ideology,
as an example, starts with the general and thereby assumes it explains
the particular, I start with the particular, and try and stay there.
The particular for me is the individuals who are real, those I've listed
above, not myths.  I take their work and ideas, and all others', as they
are, on their own terms, measure their success against their particular
stated aims, not against a theoretical world-view.  Call it what you
like, it works for me.

gg




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: David Keffer <[e-mail]>
Subject: mags
Date: 08 May 1998 16:24:51 -0400


Hello folks on the zorn list,

I have read the last two issues of a relatively
new magazine called "Halana!"  It features
five or six long articles/interviews, then reviews,
and a compilation cd, featuring the five or six musicians
featured in the long articles.

This magazine is just great and worth reading the whole way=20
through.  It's not like "The WIRE", where usually the most
useful thing is the reviews.  This magazine focuses on
serious, sometimes intellectual, documentary-type articles,
much more similar to the sort of discussion that goes on
in this list than anything in "The WIRE".

The last issue (#3) featured interviews and tracks from:
Charlemagne Palestine, Bernhard G=FCnter, David Grubbs,=20
Motoharu Yoshizawa, Alan Licht, John Fahey
(This issue has a short story by Fahey that is=20
really pretty hysterical.)

Issue #2 featured the interviews and tracks from:
KEIJI HAINO, WILLIAM PARKER, TONY CONRAD,
ALAN LAMB and PAULINE OLIVEROS.=20

More info available at the Halana! site
http://members.aol.com/halanazine/

David K.







-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Joseph S. Zitt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: mags
Date: 08 May 1998 15:49:03 -0500 (CDT)

On Fri, 8 May 1998, David Keffer wrote:

> I have read the last two issues of a relatively
> new magazine called "Halana!"  It features
> five or six long articles/interviews, then reviews,
> and a compilation cd, featuring the five or six musicians
> featured in the long articles.
>
> This magazine is just great and worth reading the whole way
> through.

Definitely! The first issue has an amazingly extensive (less-interested
people might call it interminable) interview with La Monte Young, and the
three issues I've seen have all been wonderful.

 -
---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Michael Howes <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Magazines
Date: 07 May 1998 22:10:09 -0700

>> >By the way; which is/are the best magazine/s zornies (worldwide) choose
>> >concerning all the music?

 I haven't seen mention of a few of my favorite zines that sorta relate to
the list....
And yea Wire is a staple...and I don't subscribe to Option anymore....

 Others worth noting...

MusicWorks - Exploration in Sound
    More "classical" oriented but my current favorite music magazine. About
15% of it is in french (which I can't read) but it's still well worth it.
The subscription can come with or without a CD that has music from most of
the artists talked about in that issue....
 Check http://www.musicworks-mag.com/ for more info

ND
    This comes out only 3 or 4 times a year...I don't know if the March one
came out yet...I haven't subscribed (really should) but I haven't found it
yet....The web pages lists Stelarc, Alvin Lucier, Maggi Payne, Bernard
Parmegiani, and others for this issue...
 Check http://www.nd.org/intro.html

and how could we forget............

Browbeat
 Our very own list owners and I'm not mentioning this because of that it is
by far one of my favorite zines. He reviews old and well as new music....
 Check http://www.browbeat.com/

So does this Avant magazine have a web page? Is it connected to the
Japanese label of the same name?

Anybody ever read Tuba Frenzy when it was around? That was solid but I
haven't seen an issue in a year or so....

mike
[e-mail]





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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: George Grella <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Sharpish
Date: 08 May 1998 09:34:54 -0800

Benjamin Pequet writes:


> Alright George Grella, only the music... no politics.
> Have you heard, all ? Let's not get into subjective or emotional about music
> then. About politics well ?
>
> But isn't music a political thing, when someone for example (why am I
> thinking of Boulez ?) holds such a position as the one occupied by Boulez in
> France ?
> Or isn't it a political statement to be listening to some kind of music than
> another ? Why on earth are we on a Zorn list ?
>
  and

> The High Modernist International Style ?
>
> What you seem to be have missed is that the society became post-modern
> around 1950 and that we already need to find alternatives to the post-modern
> views on this society. Yes, things changed a lot around the middle of this
> century... That's by the way for a part why I see so many things in Zorn's
> work. And not at all in Boulez's statements. I think we are talking about
> very different things, that Boulez himself through his career contributed to
> hold as separate as he could.
>
> Come back to me with a definition of fascism will you ? I always consider
> useful the one that states fascism as the violence of power.
>
> But please now don't misunderstand what I write, I'm not accusing anyone of
> anything.
>

????  Music is a poltiical thing if it wants to be, or if listeners make
it so for themselves.  Eisler is consciously political and can be
listened to and evaluated that way.  Rzewski is consciously poltiical
and consciously musical and can be listened to either way or both ways.
Shostakovich tried not to be political but was listened to that way and
suffered for it.  But does any of this have to be this way?  No.  No
composer is compelled to make political music and no listener is obliged
to listen politically.  It's a choice.  Benjamin, if you feel you are
making a political statement by listening to John Zorn, more power to
you.  However, the personal IS NOT the political TO ME, and shouldn't
that be my personal/political choice?  I am on the John Zorn list
because I like this stuff as MUSIC, which also means that if there's a
Zorn work I don't like as MUSIC, like "Kristallnacht," then I don't like
it, regardless of politics, which just clouds all the issues of
listening and thinking and enjoying, IMO.

For me, that choice means that I have no taste for Eisler, because I
find his music inferior, regardless of his politics; I love Rzeswki,
because in pieces like "The People United" he writes great f*cking
music, beautiful, inspired and masterfully written; and I think
Shostakovich is one of the paradigmatic artists of the 20th century
because he managed to survive politicial forces that could easily and
literally have snuffed out his life to create music so layered with
seeming supplication [to the political listener] and so steeped in
personal expression and struggle, the two often comingled in endless
later of meaning.

As for a Post-Modernist society, where is it?  How do I live in a
different way philosophically and aesthetically than I would have prior
to 1950?  A lot has changed in the arts since then, obviously, but this
is just too much generalizing.  "Post-Modernism" covers too much ground
with too soft a core to have any real useful meaning to me.  And just
because artist creat consciously Post -Modern works doesn't mean that
the world is Post-Modern for everybody and every musician.  I'm not
speaking philosophically here, I'm talking fact.  Do I have to name
names yet again?  And it's use here by you, Benjamin, along with your
implication of fascism [yes, you did accuse by making that statement],
is far, far more dreadful than my mere mention of a Modernist style.
There is a stench of the tyranny of the orthodox here, that if I'm not a
politically aware, Post-Modern, properly genuflecting Zorn fan here than
I'm wrong as a person on a social, political, asethetic and moral
level.  That looks like a pretty clear definition of fascism to me.

If you [singular and plural] see yourselves and the world as a big ball
of proper political thinking and political music appreciation, as a
place where a vague aesthetic philosophy of pastiche and irony-laden
references is the "right" way to think, then I don't want to be a part
of that world.  I'm frankly surprised that there is a
political/aesthetic orthodoxy to this list at all; I would have expected
the spirit to be far more anarchic and inclusive.  I'm afraid too many
people take the step over from Zorn appreciation to Zorn fan-worship,
where Zorn becomes the object of a cult of personality and his attitudes
and taste become a political litmus test.  Do you think he'd find that
attitude appealing?

I personally find this question of fascism vis-a-vis my arguments
incredibly offensive and then, on second thought, I think it's just
pathetic that that is the reaction when I articulate an opinion and
reasons for it that differ from the orthodox here.  But then, while my
name recognition means nothing here, my "fascism" puts me in good
company.  I don't have the booklet on hand to quote directly, but a
composer favorable to many "right-thinking" listeners here, Gyorgy
Ligeti, wrote a concise, eloquent and devastating rejection of
Post-Modernism in the liner notes for the recent Sony recording of his
Piano Etudes [Ligeti series #6, I believe, performed by Pierre-Laurent
Aimard, pianist with that horrible Ensemble Intercontemporain, under
that dreadful old-fart who recorded Zappa for all the wrong reasons and
who obviously ignored all the signs that one morning he woke up in a
world that was suddenly Post-Modern, Pierre Boulez].  If that makes
Ligeti a fascist, that count me as one.

gg





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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: George Grella <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Music & Jargon
Date: 07 May 1998 12:27:40 -0800

Joseph S.  Zitt writes:

> For a clear explanation of the orchestra as bourgeois capitalist whatever,
> see Chris Cutler's book "File Under Popular".
>
> As a composer myself, much of what I have written is not necessarily "out
> of [my] own needs, interests and desires as autonomous human beings" but
> due to requests from others, writing a work to their specifications.
> Many other write to commissions. It's a valid way of writing, but doesn't
> seem to fit into your "reality, fact". (The American mythos of
> individualism, so prevalent on the Net, sometimes gets in the way of
> people seeing that some people do, indeed, do things to help other
> people.)
>
> And writing a piece and getting it heard are radically different
> situations. A fellow composer was telling me  few days ago about a piece
> he's been writing for the past few years involving a full orchestra, tape,
> and 40 readers seated among the audience. He may well write this
> marvelously, but I'll bet my hat that, within the current
> artistic/economic landscape, nobody ever hears it.

We'll have to agree to disagree then.  I am not one for
political/social/economic theory when applied to the arts.  That was not
always the case, but experience made me an empiricist.  And as such, I
don't seen how the evidence, my, and our, reality and fact support the
notion that a symphony orchestra is a bourgeois expression.

Your personal experience with the commissioning process makes me
curious, though.  The requests from others, what were the
specifications?  If they were for just plain symphony orchestra, in
other words, the only specification being for that ensemble, I don't see
how that makes it a bourgeois expression, and not your own.  You wrote
the piece(s), after all.  That would fit my reality.

Was the form of the piece specified, a concerto for a particular
instrument, for example, or a specific number of movements?  Again, my
view is that the music produced is still the composer's own expression,
and while the commissioner provided limits, those are the same sort of
limits that composers choice when making their pieces, albeit in this
case that decision is out of the composer's hand.  Or were actual
elements of the music provided, i.e. melody, harmony, rhythm, thereby
making your work more arrangement than composition?  In that case I
would agree that expression would primarily be someone elses, but not
only would that other person have to be safely defined as a bourgeoisie,
I would also have to point out that it would be a highly unique
commissioning situation, one where the original material/idea is not the
composers.  I have not heard nor seen such a commissioning proposal
before.

Does the commissioner necessarily have to be bourgeois?  Are ensembles
that commission pieces from composers ensembles of bourgeois
expression?  That's an assumption that has to be made, and I'm not going
to make it.  It's not an orchestral piece, but I think of Carter's
"Night Fantasies" that was commissioned by four pianists.  If it had
been a symphonic work commissioned by four orchestras, would we call the
result a bourgeois expression?

Getting a piece heard once written is a whole different process which
obviously has a lot more to do with taste and economics, but again I
can't agree that it all has to do with "bourgeois expression," which by
the way no one who believes in has defined.  This is where I stand,
ultimately, on the case that no one can tell me what bourgeois
expression, vis-a-vis the symphony orchestra, is, and without that,
there is no way to find actual music that is the bourgeois expression
rather than the composer's own.  That is my empiral evidence, the music,
listening to it, it's sound, it's style, the different ways it is made
by different composer's.  Some contemporaneous orchestral composers were
Howard Hanson, Luciano Berio, Giacinto Scelsci, Roger Sessions and Hans
Werner Henze.  Their work, taken together, is stupendously varied in
techniques, ideas, aesthetic values, sound and style.  Can someone tell
me which pieces among them were bourgeois expressions?  They can't all
be, or else the bourgeoisie has far more varied, deep, sensitive,
adventurous and educated taste in orchestral music that I think anyone
would like to give them credit for.

Unless someone can prove to me otherwise, people are still individuals.
These individuals, if we look at individual composers, may wish to do
things to help others, as Joseph writes.  That in no way at all
eliminates their ability to compose orchestral music, even when
commissioned, that is their own personal expression.  It's not a
zero-sum game.  If we posit that a composer can write a piece of music
for a beneficial purpose, a donation or fund raising situation of some
kind, I would also posit that the music produced is what the composer
decides to produce!  I would say that is an intuitive idea, but it's far
more basic than that, and I'm amazed that there are questions about it.
It's pretty late in the game to still make generalized and deterministic
class-based arguments, especially on behalf of theories that, unlike so
many economic and political ideas, have been tried in the real world and
found wanting.  If the opposite of claims that the symphony orchestra is
a bourgeois expression are those of individualism, than count me as
heterodox.  The basic fault of dialectical materialism is it's dismissal
of individual human qualities and talents.  Fans of John Zorn alone
should realize the power of individual expression every time they listen
to his records.

gg




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: George Grella <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Magazines (& reviews & reviewers)
Date: 08 May 1998 15:57:22 -0800

Rusty Crump writes:


> BUT!! I have to say the Penguin Guide to Jazz on CD is the most successful
> volume of reviews and criticism I've ever seen. It was more of a
> page-turner than the most exciting, potboiling, testosterone-soaked crime
> novel in existence. For me, that is.
>
> So, that leads to a question: Does anybody know when the next edition of
> the Penguin Guide is going to be published? I can't wait to read a more
> thorough assessment of Zorn in light of his last four or five years' work.
>

Amen, brother!  The Guide is great, indispensible!  It was given to me
as a Christmas present, and although I already haev a fairly extensive
collection and don't use it that often to guage purchases, it's a
pleasure to read and re-read the discussion of music I already know or
of music I've never imagined.  What is so invaluable, IMO, is how
through the reviews the Guide gives dense and concise musical
biographies of so many musicians.

It's got it's inconsistencies [why are so many Dave Holland records
praised and given three stars, which is "good," not "great"] and it's
got an obvious bias towards English musicians [the Penguin Classical
Guide is the same] but there's nothing else like it.  It's so much more
than a collection of reviews.  I've been wondering, same as you, when
the next editrion is coming out, also very curious about the new Zorn
CDs they may cover, especially in light of their wonderful comment on
him in the last edition as the "ambivalent superstar of the
avant-garde."

gg


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Dragon -------- Frog)
Subject: Critics
Date: 08 May 1998 18:10:39 -0700

I didn't say Kremsky was a poor critic, I said he dismissed music I liked
and seemed to have mainstream tastes. The first is an objective fact. The
second is an impression which may or not be true. I actually had a very
integrous discussion with him via post about our differences, and he
wasn't the least bit defensive. I have great respect for the man. But
different musical tastes.

DF "Strawman" Sinner

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Benjamin Pequet <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Sharpish
Date: 09 May 1998 03:50:26 +0200

George,-

Thank you for your answer, that clarifies much of the way I may have
understood some statements you made and I wanted to reply to. Do I have to
say I didn't mean to be personal and offend you ? I am sincerely sorry if I
did.

In your answer you clearly put things right about the meaning in which you
take the word politic, and hence why we can't agree. So do you with
post-modernism.
You say music is a political thing if it wants to be or if listeners make it
so for themselves. No, music is economic and music is politic, not just if
it wants to be (and by the way I have no clue how music could ever chose
anything for itself). My point was that I am really fighting and having a
hard time to find my way into the music I listen to because it is meaningful
to me - be it for esthetic reasons or politic or whatever you wish to
qualify my reasons.
If your status of musician or composer lifts you above all that then what
can I tell you, it's great. For me
whatever I am and wherever I live and however clever and free thinker I try
to be I am not above that, it doesn't work. I can't nor do I want to get rid
of the thought that expressions are screened by an amount of political and
economical parameters, canalized in the press and media, that our tastes are
shaped in a way or another by what we get to listen, etc.
To me this is political, in the way that it affects social life. And it
becomes violent, in the way that as individuals we don't really have a
choice or that our choices are considerably limited, expressions disappear
everyday because they don't get to be listened to.

In my acception that's political also because there are things to do here,
expressions to support and things to make change.
It is a fact we all who are on this list listen to Zorn I guess so I am not
sure what point you try to make,
I hope we all listen to Zorn's work for different reasons that you would
never have me here starting to phrase - and not for some kind of homogenous
big-ball-of-proper-political-thinking-and-political-music-appreciation you
talk about (and that in the first place you imply would be possible, well I
think that's a bit delirious of you).

I think you chose to take a definition of what is political and what is not
that is less inclusive than mine. In my sense then you don't make a
political choice when you think you are making one. But I understand that
you are logical with your way of looking at things.

I really do think that an objectivity has to be reached at another level
that where you see it though. But I understand I have nothing to convince
you of.
Same thing when you talk about a Post-Modern society.

Post-modernity in my acception is for example the point of view of a society
that relies on past experiences and assumes that the same causes will lead
to the same consequences. From the moment mondialisation occured (which is
only one element of post-modernity) don't we have to face that when we touch
on a parameter of the whole system, the change has repercussions at every
esthetic, social, psychological and at any other level you can consider
culture, and at a pace ever-increasing that the world didn't know before ? I
am not talking philosophically, I am talking facts.
Isn't in that environment that Zorn explodes the frontiers between classical
music and the other music, the music-that-is-not-serious ? Isn't Uitti ?
Isn't Sharp ?
Was a change like that only possible before 1950 ?
My understanding, that you may find simple, is that someone like Boulez is
perpetuating a savant difference between classical music and the other
music. Even if numerous examples can be found that he made things evolve, my
point is that the changes he brought about were superficial and only
clouding the issues I am trying to talk about (and I think you do too).

In what you say something strikes me each time, it is when you shield your
opinion behind your status of composer or musician, as if this allowed you a
position outside of the game and hence gave an objective and indiscutable
quality to your statements.
You can decide for you that you are not making politics if you decide not
to, but for me it's a politic statement as well, and with which thus I can't
agree, at any level. But if that's just to do with the definition I have of
politics and you of yours that's fine and I don't want to fight for that, as
long as we understand that our mutual views are valid.

You know, I used the word post-modern and you put capitals to it,
Post-Modernism, and you attribute to it a meaning I don't recognize. You
seem to make it a Country on which some kind of Orthodoxy rules and that
tries to submit the rest of the world, accusing you and who doesn't accept
it of Fascism.
Well again, being against post-modernism doesn't make any sense. How is it
to be against mondialisation and the proliferation of informations, how is
it to be against the liberation of nuclear energy ? If I am against the
internet, so what ? I am not sure what you mean and what you are talking
about that Ligeti rejects post-modernism, I don't think we have the option
to reject what the world has become. Rejecting it, yes but in aknowledging
it first and finding alternatives, proposing action on it. Am I making
myself clear ?

I am sorry if you thought I accused you of being a fascist. I wouldn't like
you treating me of Zorn-worshipper for example so I'm really sorry if I
seemed to be saying that your views were on the edge...

Actually I can't really believe you accused me of defending or representing
some kind of a Zorn-cult in your reply, hell I hate the idea. Did I really
say something that made you think so ?

Otherwise I understand we might get to such a ridiculous situation where you
would for example be ready to quote a booklet (as gospel ?) that you don't
have right there, to denounce and prove wrong some kind of orthodoxy and
fan-worship that you see me represent and defend.
Or you would ask me if I think Zorn (gospel ?) would find appealing the view
you accuse me of.
Maybe you would even get to the point of accusing me of the precise thing
you think I accuse you of.

I haven't been on this list long enough to really see orthodoxy. Except
maybe what I tried to articulate in the precise letter you react to, when I
said people here seem to be very cautious not to talk in a way that might
seem negative, of a musician, or a composer for example.

>Piano Etudes [Ligeti series #6, I believe, performed by Pierre-Laurent
>Aimard, pianist with that horrible Ensemble Intercontemporain, under
>that dreadful old-fart who recorded Zappa for all the wrong reasons and
>who obviously ignored all the signs that one morning he woke up in a
>world that was suddenly Post-Modern, Pierre Boulez].  If that makes

I don't think Boulez woke up in a world that was suddenly post-modern,
that's precisely his problem.

But hey, George. I like your sarcasm too and I understand that you were
pissed off at what I wrote. I repeat my apologies if you felt personnally
offended, it was not my intend.
Besides that I appreciate the valuable information you distil in your
answer, and I'll look forward to read from you again.

Sincerely,  Benjamin



>????  Music is a poltiical thing if it wants to be, or if listeners make
>it so for themselves.  Eisler is consciously political and can be
>listened to and evaluated that way.  Rzewski is consciously poltiical
>and consciously musical and can be listened to either way or both ways.
>Shostakovich tried not to be political but was listened to that way and
>suffered for it.  But does any of this have to be this way?  No.  No
>composer is compelled to make political music and no listener is obliged
>to listen politically.  It's a choice.  Benjamin, if you feel you are
>making a political statement by listening to John Zorn, more power to
>you.  However, the personal IS NOT the political TO ME, and shouldn't
>that be my personal/political choice?  I am on the John Zorn list
>because I like this stuff as MUSIC, which also means that if there's a
>Zorn work I don't like as MUSIC, like "Kristallnacht," then I don't like
>it, regardless of politics, which just clouds all the issues of
>listening and thinking and enjoying, IMO.
>
>For me, that choice means that I have no taste for Eisler, because I
>find his music inferior, regardless of his politics; I love Rzeswki,

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Wilfredo Casas" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Cage
Date: 08 May 1998 21:21:17 PDT

In which recording I find Cage's "4'33''"? Or can you recommend some
Cage CD's for me?

I'll appreciate your help.

Thank you,
Juan

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Bob Boster <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Magazines
Date: 09 May 1998 11:23:53 -0700 (PDT)


On Thu, 7 May 1998, Michael Howes wrote:

>
> Anybody ever read Tuba Frenzy when it was around? That was solid but I
> haven't seen an issue in a year or so....


new issue just went to the printer, available in maybe 3 weeks...

Bob Boster
sometimes Tuba Frenzy contributor and Chapel Hill expatriate


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Vincent Martin <[e-mail]>
Subject: Magazines
Date: 09 May 1998 22:15:26 +0200

In English :
THE WIRE is the most professional
In French :
OCTOPUS, subjects similar to the Wire, but not regular
REVUE ET CORRIGEE : best, concrete music, contemporary, rock, video ...
IMPROJAZZ : very nice interview from Wyatt in the last one
PEACE WARRIOR : including the special Fred Frith (complete discography
ART ZERO : Free Webezine (see address below)
Is there a Web site showing all the links and addresses ?

Vincent
--
             Alors
les lettres d'un neon surnaturel a l'arete de basalte
     d'un promontoir taille de prismes
guidees par les hesitations d'un solo d'orgue
            ont ecrit
          SAVE YOURSELF       Dashiell Hedayat (Le Bleu Le Bleu)
      Art Zero : http://www.mygale.org/~bsadour/




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Brian Olewnick <[e-mail]>
Subject: Recent Goodies
Date: 10 May 1998 13:07:39 -0400

JOHN LUTHER ADAMS    CLOUDS OF UNKNOWING, CLOUDS OF FORGETTING
            (New World)

The other John Adams. Between the title and the new-agey cover design,
I'm sure I would've passed this up on my own, but I was intrigued by an
enthusiastic review given by Kyle Gann in the Voice a couple of months
back. Should've followed my instincts. It's a piece for chamber
orchestra, aggravatingly (to me) mystical in tone (and explicitly meant
to be, according to the composer's liner notes), that hovers in the
territory between Feldman, Anthony Davis and the other Adams, though
coming nowhere near the beauty and brilliance of the former two and only
approaching generic non-Luther Adams. Bland and fuzzy. The drop-off from
first-rate to second-rate Feldman strikes me as precipitous. If anyone
has heard other, better works from this guy, please let me know.

EARLE BROWN        FOUR SYSTEMS        HAT NOW

My first time really listening to Brown and it's a winner. There are two
versions of 'Folio II' for solo (overdubbed) flute performed by Eberhard
Blum (using slide-whistle and vocalisation techniques as well as
'normal' flute-playing) following three calligraphic scores, both
enjoyable. The title track (37 min.), again for overdubbed flutes (the
the score calls for any instrument), is gorgeous. The score, in four
sections, consists of several layers of dashes of varying thicknesses
and lengths for the performer to interpret as he pleases. Blum tends
towards long, held tones with a somewhat harsh edge that give the piece
a sensuous, tactile quality. The work raises the obvious question: How
much is Brown, how much Blum? I'd enjoy hearing descriptions of other
versions of the piece as I imagine they vary widely. Do they all have
'something' of Earle Brown (some, ahem, Brownian movement)?
Recommendations of other Brown work would also be appreciated.

LEE HYLA        WE SPEAK ETRUSCAN        NEW WORLD

I had heard bits of Hyla's Avant release and had been underwhelmed, but
when I found this in the HMV bin for $2.99, I figured it was worth the
risk and, basically, it was. Five pieces arranged symetrically, the
first and fifth for chamber orchestra (the latter a piano concerto), the
second and fourth are string quartets and the central piece is a duet
for baritone sax and bass clarinet, performed by Tim Berne and Tim
Smith. This last is a good bit of fun, with much energetic playing and
writing. I also enjoyed the piano concerto, some of it reminding me a
bit of Anthony Davis' great 'Variations in Dream-Time', if not quite up
to that level. Throughout, Hyla's writing is solid in a kind of jazzy
post-Bartok vein. Not bad.

All for now,

Brian Olewnick

Listening to: Bob Telson's 'The Gospel at Colonus'. Whatever became of
Jevetta Steele? What a voice!

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Peter Hollo <[e-mail]>
Subject: Serialism
Date: 10 May 1998 17:06:06 +1000

This sounds more like an article from the satirical magazine The Onion
(www.theonion.com) than a real news article but apparently it's genuine.
Speaking as a musician (and indeed one who's not particularly keen on
twelve-tone music on the whole) it seems like it's a joke (note the
"comments" from various minimalists and so on)... what do y'all think?

Actually, rereading it, it seems like it's claiming Serialism was a Nazi
plot (?), which betrays perhaps a lack of knowledge that Schoenberg was
Jewish, if nothing else...

Seen on another list:
>> Composer Webern was Double Agent for Nazis
>>
>> By Heinrich Kincaid
>>
>> .c The Associated Press
>>
>> BERLIN, GERMANY (AP) - Recent admissions by an ex-Nazi official
>> living in Argentina have confirmed what some musicologists have
>> suspected for years: that early twentieth century German composer
>> Anton Webern and his colleagues devised the so-called "serial"
>> technique of music to encrypt messages to Nazi spies living in the
>> United States and Britain.
>>
>> In what can surely be considered the most brazen instance of Art
>> Imitating Espionage to date, avant garde composers of the Hitler
>> years working in conjunction with designers of the Nazi Enigma code
>> were bamboozling unsuspecting audiences with their atonal thunderings
>> while at the same time passing critical scientific data back and
>> forth between nations.
>>
>> "This calls into question the entire Second Viennese School of
>> music," announced minimalist composer John Adams from his home in the
>> Adirondack Mountains.  "Ever since I first encountered compositions
>> by Arnold Schonberg I wondered what the hell anyone ever heard in it.
>> Now I know."
>>
>> Gunned down by an American soldier in occupied Berlin, 62 year old
>> Anton Webern's death was until now considered a tragic loss to the
>> musical world. At the time the U.S. Army reported that the killing
>> was "a mistake", and that in stepping onto the street at night to
>> smoke a cigarette Webern was violating a strict curfew rule.
>>
>> It is now known that Webern was using music to shuttle Werner
>> Heisenberg's discoveries in atomic energy to German spy Klaus Fuchs
>> working on the Manhattan atom bomb project in New Mexico.  Due to the
>> secret nature of the project, which was still underway after the
>> invasion of Berlin, Army officials at the time were unable to
>> describe the true reason for Webern's murder.
>>
>> Hans Scherbius, a Nazi party official who worked with Minister of
>> Propaganda Joseph Goebbels, admitted at age eighty-seven that the
>> Nazis secretly were behind the twelve-tone technique of composition,
>> which was officially reviled to give it the outlaw status it needed
>> to remain outside of the larger public purview.
>>
>> "These pieces were nothing more than cipher for encoding messages,"
>> he chuckled during an interview on his balcony in Buenos Aires.  "It
>> was only because it was 'naughty' and difficult that elite audiences
>> accepted it, even championed it."
>>
>> Physicist Edward Teller, who kept a 9-foot Steinway piano in his
>> apartment at the Los Alamos laboratory, was the unwitting deliverer
>> of Heisenburg's data to Fuchs, who eagerly attended parties thrown by
>> Teller, an enthusiastic booster of Webern's music.
>>
>> Arnold Schonberg, the older musician who first devised the serial
>> technique at the request of the Weimar government of Germany,
>> composed in America to deliver bomb data stolen by Fuchs back to the
>> Nazis, who worked feverishly to design their own atomic weapons.
>>
>> As an example, Scherbius showed Associated Press reporters the score
>> of Webern's Opus 30 "Variations for Orchestra" overlayed with a
>> cardboard template.  The notes formed a mathematical grid that
>> deciphered into German a comparison between the neutron release
>> cross-sections of uranium isotopes 235 and 238.
>>
>> Schonberg responded with a collection of songs for soprano and
>> woodwinds that encrypted the chemical makeup of the
>> polonium-beryllium initiator at the core of the Trinity explosion.
>>
>> And in Japan, Toru Takemitsu took time out from his own
>> neo-romanticism to transmit data via music of his nation's progress
>> with the atom.
>>
>> "The most curious thing about it," says composer Philip Glass in New
>> York City, "is that musicians continued to write twelve-tone music
>> after the war, even though they had no idea why it was really
>> invented.  Indeed, there are guys who are churning out serialism to
>> this day."
>>
>> Unlike the diatonic music, which is based on scales that have been
>> agreed upon by listeners throughout the world for all of history,
>> twelve-tone music treats each note of the chromatic scale with equal
>> importance, and contains a built-in mathematical refusal to form
>> chords that are pleasing by traditional standards.  Known also as
>> serialism, the style has never been accepted outside of an elite
>> cadre of musicians, who believe it is the only fresh and valid
>> direction for post-Wagnerian classical music to go.
>>
>> "Even if this is really true," states conductor Pierre Boulez, a
>> composer who continues to utilyze serial techniques, "the music has
>> been vindicated by music critics for decades now.  I see no reason to
>> suddenly invalidate an art form just because of some funny business
>> at its inception."
>>
>> AP-NY-05-06-98 1716EDT

Yeah, well reading it again, it's certainly a parody... I think?

Peter.
--
Peter Hollo    [e-mail]    http://www.cia.com.au/raven/
             FourPlay - Eclectic Electric String Quartet
              http://www.cia.com.au/raven/fourplay.html
"Of course, dance music can be a music where you lie on your back and
your brain cells dance" -Michael Karoli of Can, quoted in Wire mag.




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Brian Olewnick <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Serialism
Date: 10 May 1998 14:06:33 -0400

Peter Hollo wrote:

(hilarious article snipped)

> Yeah, well reading it again, it's certainly a parody... I think?

I'm sure, but it was wonderful. Sounds like something Umberto Eco
would've come up with. More likely, the source might have been 'The
Journal of Irreproducible Results' or a similar publication which
produces scholarly-sounding articles on the most ridiculous subjects. My
favorite concerned the impending disaster facing the US Eastern
seaboard: Due to the weight of billions of copies of National Geographic
in closets and attics, the entire East Coast is threatened with
submersion!

Brian Olewnick

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Eric C. Honour, Jr." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn List Digest V2 #361
Date: 10 May 1998 15:40:06 -0500


>------------------------------
>
>Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 21:21:17 PDT
>From: "Wilfredo Casas" <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Cage
>
>In which recording I find Cage's "4'33''"? Or can you recommend some
>Cage CD's for me?
>
>I'll appreciate your help.
>
>Thank you,
>Juan
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


Is this a joke?  (The "4:33" part, I mean)  You can find it in any
recording you own -- just hit the pause button and wait for 4:33. :)

My favorite Cage recording is of his "Atlas Eclipticalis" performed by the
Chicago Symphony Orchestra with James Levine (DG 431 698-2).  This disc
also has Carter's Variations for Orchestra, Schuller's Spectra, and
Babbitt's Correspondences.

If the 4:33 thing wasn't a joke... perform it yourself!  That is almost
certainly going to be more interesting than any recording that exists.  BTW
-- you should check into it, as the original piece was not even technically
4:33, but a three-movement piece for any instrument(s) where nothing was
played in any of the movements.

Eric

--------------------------
Eric C. Honour, Jr.
Composer * Saxophonist * Graphic Designer
MMus (Saxophone Performance and Composition)
Northwestern University
[e-mail]
--------------------------
Black holes are where God divided by zero.



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Recent Goodies
Date: 10 May 1998 18:55:43 -0400

Brian Olewnick wrote:
>
> JOHN LUTHER ADAMS       CLOUDS OF UNKNOWING, CLOUDS OF FORGETTING
>                         (New World)
>
> The other John Adams.

Other than John D.F. Adams, I take it... or maybe that third guy who
does the operas :-)

>  It's a piece for chamber
> orchestra, aggravatingly (to me) mystical in tone (and explicitly meant
> to be, according to the composer's liner notes),

Hmm... what makes a piece sound "mystical in tone"?

--
---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn List Digest V2 #361
Date: 10 May 1998 19:05:25 -0400

Eric C. Honour, Jr. wrote:

> If the 4:33 thing wasn't a joke... perform it yourself!  That is almost
> certainly going to be more interesting than any recording that exists.  BTW
> -- you should check into it, as the original piece was not even technically
> 4:33, but a three-movement piece for any instrument(s) where nothing was
> played in any of the movements.

Not quite accurate. Cage carefully calculated and notated the durations.
It was only some years later that he loosened the idea.

See the archives of the Silence list at
http://newalbion.com/artists/cagej/silence/ for discussions of this. (We
gotta do an FAQ someday...)
--
---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Cage
Date: 10 May 1998 16:15:24 -0700


On Fri, 08 May 1998 21:21:17 PDT  "Wilfredo Casas" wrote:
>
> In which recording I find Cage's "4'33''"? Or can you recommend some
> Cage CD's for me?

The problem is not to find a version of it, but a good one. I have yet
to find one that I am very satisfied with. The interprets on the one
currently available are fairly overbearing. In fact, one day I thought
that I had found the ultimate interpretation of it, to finally realized
that I had just forgotten to plug on my CD player. Also, be careful
about the freedom some players take with its duration.

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Eric C. Honour, Jr." <[e-mail]>
Subject: More Cage's 4:33 stuff
Date: 10 May 1998 18:53:01 -0500

>Eric C. Honour, Jr. wrote:
>
[snip] the original piece was not even technically
>> 4:33, but a three-movement piece for any instrument(s) where nothing was
>> played in any of the movements.
>
>Not quite accurate. Cage carefully calculated and notated the durations.
>It was only some years later that he loosened the idea.
>
>See the archives of the Silence list at
>http://newalbion.com/artists/cagej/silence/ for discussions of this. (We
>gotta do an FAQ someday...)
>--
>---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
>|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
>||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
>|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|



Actually I knew that, but I couldn't remember the exact durations he
specified, so I just mentioned that there was more than just the 4:33
everyone remembers.  I know David Tudor (piano) did the premiere and
signaled the three "nonmovements" (as Bob Machlis puts it) by raising and
lowering his arms (as though to play).  I think that the entire piece WAS
4:33 long, but I seem to remember reading somewhere that the title was
originally something else.  True?

Eric

--------------------------
Eric C. Honour, Jr.
Composer * Saxophonist * Graphic Designer
MMus (Saxophone Performance and Composition)
Northwestern University
[e-mail]
--------------------------
Black holes are where God divided by zero.



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: john shiurba <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Cage
Date: 10 May 1998 17:57:54 -0700

> In which recording I find Cage's "4'33''"? Or can you recommend some
> Cage CD's for me?

i have three versions. one is actually 4:33 (No. 2) in which the piece was
'reorchestrated' for any player doing anything for 4:33. this is featured on
a hatART cd called 'music for five' but i recommend more heartily a
recording of the original, in which a musician is instructed to play nothing
(tacet) for 4:33. there's a recording on Cramps where the piece is
performed by Gianni Emilio Simonetti. this version was recorded in the
70s and due to the inaccuracies of analog mastering runs a bit over 4:33 on
the cd counter, but the analog fidelity is exquisite. then there's one of my
favorite cds, containing just a recording of 4:33 by Wayne Marshall
recorded in top notch, noise free digital sound-- this is on Floating Earth
records. Call it a joke if you like. Would that we all could have composed
such a joke.

--



[e-mail]

http://www.sfo.com/~shiurba

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: More Cage's 4:33 stuff
Date: 10 May 1998 23:04:38 -0400

Eric C. Honour, Jr. wrote:

> Actually I knew that, but I couldn't remember the exact durations he
> specified, so I just mentioned that there was more than just the 4:33
> everyone remembers.  I know David Tudor (piano) did the premiere and
> signaled the three "nonmovements" (as Bob Machlis puts it) by raising and
> lowering his arms (as though to play).  I think that the entire piece WAS
> 4:33 long, but I seem to remember reading somewhere that the title was
> originally something else.  True?

Well, he had talked earlier about doing a piece without intentional
sound named "Silent Prayer", I believe (my copy of James Pritchett's
indispensible "The Music of John Cage" is still in a box here
someplace).
--
---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Lang Thompson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Cage
Date: 10 May 1998 23:19:34 -0400

At 09:21 PM 5/8/98 PDT, you wrote:
>In which recording I find Cage's "4'33''"?
>Thank you,
>Juan


Why not just perform it for yourself?
Lang Thompson
http://www.tcf.ua.edu/wlt4
New at Funhouse:  Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan obituary.

"Zathras beast of burden to many others.  Is sad
life.  Probably have sad death.  But at least
there is symmetry."  --  Zathras

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Dragon -------- Frog)
Subject: Best Version I've Found Of 4'33"
Date: 10 May 1998 20:32:49 -0700



_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Lang Thompson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Option magazine
Date: 11 May 1998 00:04:22 -0400

Since I've been writing for Option since the third issue, maybe I can
answer some of the recent questions about the magazine.  Every other month,
reviewers are sent a package of five or six albums to review.  The editor
makes the decision based on what he (or at one time she) knows about the
reviewer's tastes and experience; we can't request specific titles.  The
idea is to match album with reviewer and several years back there was even
supposed to be some kind of card file for each reviewer but I don't know
how closely that works out anymore.  It's in the nature of the process that
some mismatches will occur and perhaps that's not really such a bad thing
as long as it's only a few.  I don't know what experiences others have had
but in all the time I've been writing for Option (14, 15 years?), there's
never been anything that could even remotely be considered an attempt to
influence my opinion.  In fact, several times my negative review has
appeared in the same issue (a couple of times on the same page) as an ad
from the record label.

As for the change in emphasis, some of this may be inevitable as people
come and go or interests change.  (Though it's worth noting that two former
editors are now at Rolling Stone.)  Though much of Option's early edge is
certainly gone and the political pieces that used to run are much missed,
it does still cover quite a bit of worthwhile music.  Whether it covers
enough, of course, is for you to decide.  Though they certainly get too
many "Why don't you write about..." letters, a few that indicated interest
in improv or whatever couldn't hurt.  After all, if the editors don't know,
they aren't likely to change anything.  (And it can't hurt when I again
propose profiling the Shaking Ray Levis for them to know there are people
who want to read it.)
Lang Thompson
http://www.tcf.ua.edu/wlt4
New at Funhouse:  Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan obituary.

"Zathras beast of burden to many others.  Is sad
life.  Probably have sad death.  But at least
there is symmetry."  --  Zathras

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Scott Handley" <[e-mail]>
Subject: icecream w/evan parker (+zoviet:france)for five or six hours
Date: 10 May 1998 22:59:06 PDT

I saw a totally sick set w/Evan Parker and Georg Graewe at Frank Lloyd
Wright's Unity Temple this past Saturday.  EP is a protean monster whose
shtick modifies itself in more ways than reconfiguration: this I now
know.  And Graewe is a gorgeous pianist, whose sensitivity is easily as
impressive as, just to drop two names who've got me off over the last
couple years, Marilyn Crispell and Paul Plimley, w/ a "serial" feeling
and lots Cecil-at-his-best heavy left-hand shifting lava harmony
happening.  It wasawesome.  The solo set by Park the night before was
intense and showed his latest solo-tenor stylings in a way the CHICAGO
SOLO on Okka didn't even approximate (still liked that record, tho).

I had ice cream w/ Mr. Parker and others afterword and asked him about
the sort-of recent Zoviet:France gig.  He said ZF were one of several
groups at the all-night rave in question, and he (EP) played with the
group for five or six hours until he packed up (at 6:00 in the morning,
and ZF wanted to keep going!).  I have NO IDEA where to start
w/Zoviet:France, so if anyone has recommendations, I'd love to hear
them. (Maybe you should reply off-list.)

Also saw a sick noise improv by Ab Baars, two guys from the Ex, and Han
Bennink.  I don't think I liked it, but I was also ina foul state of
mind and that might have poisoned my ears.  It was intense, at least.
And Han Bennink definitely earned his BMF degree a long time ago.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Option magazine
Date: 11 May 1998 02:26:57 -0400

Lang Thompson wrote:

> (Though it's worth noting that two former
> editors are now at Rolling Stone.)

One, actually.  Jason Fine is still at Rolling Stone; Mark Kemp has moved on to
MTV...

Steve Smith
[e-mail]


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: BECK / UNAUTHORIZED DISTRIBUTION OF SOUND RECORDINGS
Date: 11 May 1998 13:08:08 UT

    "'[e-mail]'" <[e-mail]>,
    "'[e-mail]'" <[e-mail]>,
    "'[e-mail]'" <[e-mail]>
Cc: "'Denise_Incorvaia/[e-mail]'" <*@riaa.com>,
    "Rosenblatt, Eddie" <*@geffen.com>,
    "Bennett, Bill" <*@geffen.com>, "Lapidus, Greg" <*@geffen.com>,
    "Kenin, Melissa" <*@geffen.com>,
    "Schiller, Jennifer" <*@GEFFEN-LA.Geffen.com>

May 8, 1998

Illegal Art
RTMark

RE: BECK / UNAUTHORIZED DISTRIBUTION OF SOUND RECORDINGS

To Whom It May Concern:

Geffen Records, Inc. ("Geffen") is party to an exclusive recording
agreement with the recording artist professionally known as Beck
("Artist"), and accordingly Geffen is the copyright owner of, with
exclusive rights to, the performances of Artist recorded during the term
of such agreement and the exclusive owner of the right to use the
Artist's name and likeness for record purposes in connection with such
recordings.

It has come to Geffen's attention that you intend to distribute, and
have distributed, without Geffen's authorization, an album entitled
Deconstructing Beck containing master recordings embodying Artist's
performances and using Artist's name and likeness (the "Record").  As
Geffen has not granted permission for the use of the foregoing master
recordings or name and likeness, or the distribution of the Record, such
use and distribution of the Record violates the U.S. copyright laws and
the law of the State of California, and may subject you to other
actionable claims under relevant state and federal laws.

Geffen hereby demands that you immediately cease and desist from any
further distribution or other use of the Record, that you cause any and
all third parties to whom you have entered into any agreement with
respect to the Record or to whom you have distributed the Record to
immediately cease and desist from exploiting or distributing same, and
that you furnish us with an affidavit in which you represent that you
have complied with the foregoing demand.

In the event Geffen has not received the affidavit requested within
seven (7) days from the date hereof, Geffen will pursue appropriate
legal redress against you and any other infringing parties, including,
without limitation, the immediate commencement of proceedings seeking
profits as well as actual and/or statutory damages, and injunctive
relief.

Nothing contained herein shall be deemed an admission of any fact or a
waiver of any of Geffen's rights or remedies in connection with this
matter, whether at law or in equity, all of which rights and remedies
are hereby expressly reserved.


Sincerely,


Susan Hilderley


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Marc Downing <[e-mail]>
Subject: Recent Goodies
Date: 11 May 1998 09:30:37 -0400

Many thanks to the person recommended Miles' Dark Magus. It is unbelievably
good.

A recommendation (but no critique - I've heard it only once so far):

Astor Piazzola and Gerry Mulligan 1974.

It is, as is typical of anything Astor Piazzola plays on or writes, beautiful.

Marc




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Jeff Schuth" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Why Zorn
Date: 11 May 1998 07:26:36 PDT

   I don't think that anyone got the point of my initial comment, so Ill
just come out and say it: there is hardly any discussion here on the
actual music.  Doesn't anyone else get tired about people talking about
what is good, instead of why something is good?
   I want to know how people listen to their music.  It might sound
elementary, but I'm willing to bet that everyone listens to this music
differently; so it could prove to be an interesting conversation. For
example: Torture Garden can be listened to rather straight forward and
for pure musical enjoyment--but how should one listen to Parachute
years, which to many sounds like plain noise
Thanx!

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Louis Schwartz <[e-mail]>
Subject: Henry kaiser Web Page
Date: 11 May 1998 11:21:49 -0400

A month or so ago someone posted the URL for a Henry Kaiser Web Page.  I've
recetly lost all my bookmarks and can't find the page.  Could that some one
please post it again or send it to me privately?

Thanks,

Louis Schwartz


========================
Louis Schwartz
English Department
University of Richmond
Richmond, VA 23173
[phone]
[e-mail]

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Magazines (& reviews & reviewers)
Date: 11 May 1998 10:21:06 -0300

On Friday 8, May 1998 Rusty Crump wrote:
"A lot of what passes for music reviewing and criticism has devolved
into a clever (perhaps Christgauesque) phrase and a couple of
comparisons, like "This new group is reminiscent of My Bloody Valentine
if Elvis Costello were the lead singer." That sort of crap does nothing
for me, and it's why I've stopped buying musci magazines except for the
occasional issue of The Wire..."

I DISAGREE WITH THIS.
COMPARISONS OFTEN ARE USEFUL BOTH FOR CRITICS AND READERS JUST TO PLACE
A LISTENING CONTEXT. I THINK YOU MUST BE SMART ENOUGH TO TAKE WHAT YOU
NEED; BUT YOU NEED READ FIRST.
AMOUNG OTHERS COMMENTS, RICHARD COOK (The Wire- Feb. '98) WROTE ON
ESKELIN/PARKINS/BLACK CD (One great day...-Hatology) THAT "...they are
serious about their humour, they can create some amazingly moving music
next to a madcap episode..."
I BOUGHT THE CD AND BEYOND LIKES AND DISLIKES I HAVE TO SAY THAT COOK
WAS PRETTY ACCURATE AND HIS REVIEW HAS BEEN ABSOLUTELY VALUABLE FOR ME.
ON THE OTHER HAND, IF YOU "stopped buying music magazines" YOU MISSED
READING FOR EXAMPLE:
ON JAZZIZ (APRIL '98):
BRAD SHEPIK & THE COMMUTERS, PACHORA, BEBOP & DESTRUCTION AND PIGPEN.
ALSO REVIEWS ON JOE MANIERI, TIM BERNE, CHRIS KELSEY TRIO, KISMET, THE
JULIUS HEMPHILL SEXTET, ARTHUR DOYLE AND JOHN ZORN CDS.

ON DOWN BEAT (MARCH '98):
REVIEWS ON JOE MORRIS, MARC JOHNSON, ARCANA, MATTHEW SHIPP DUO WITH JOE
MORRIS, JOE MORRIS & WILLIAM PARKER, R. PREVITE/J. ZORN CDS.
NOT ONLY - I REPEAT- WE MUST READ FIRST BUT WE OUGHT TO BE PATIENT,
CURIOUS AND OPEN-MINDED (NOT ONLY MUSICALLY), MAYBE THIS IS ONE OF THE
KEYS TO AVOID PATRICE'S SAYING: "Let's not forget that the confusion of
music writers (or they blunders) is the tip of the iceberg of the
audience in general".
This is my opinion.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: George Grella <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Recent Goodies
Date: 11 May 1998 09:20:46 -0800

Brian, your comments about your new purchases as intriguing.  Like you,
I find J.L. Adams too bland. ambience without an idea.  And the little I
know of Lee Hyla's work I've found interesting and energetic.  On Earle
Brown, though, I think I can add some more constructive comments.

It's great that Hat is recordings some of his work, but as far as I know
their stuff, and one Mode record with George Crumb, only features
Brown's solo and small chamber work.  He was the first lecturer we had
in when I started grad school at the San Francisco Conservatory of Music
and he made a big impression on me.  I had only know his scores for the
first "Folio," beautiful graphic notation.  He played some tapes for
larger ensembles and orchestral works, intriguing stuff.  He also had a
great quote; "I want my pieces to sound different each time they're
played, but I always want them to sound like Earle Brown."

From that you can get the idea of his basic technique, structured
freedom (improvisation) for the performer.  The performer gets to make
certain choices, depending on the piece, but the core idea is Brown's.

gg


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Lang Thompson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Jazz Rock bk
Date: 11 May 1998 12:24:29 -0400

Has anybody read the new Stuart Nicholson book "Jazz Rock"?  Has an
introduction by Bill Laswell.  Looks fairly interesting but the discography
doesn't seem to be in any useful order.

LT
Lang Thompson
http://www.tcf.ua.edu/wlt4
New at Funhouse:  Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan obituary.

"Zathras beast of burden to many others.  Is sad
life.  Probably have sad death.  But at least
there is symmetry."  --  Zathras

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: George Grella <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Serialism
Date: 11 May 1998 09:26:36 -0800

That is hilarious!  That's definitely a parody; not only is the idea
ridiculous, in the best way, but if you bothered to check dates,
records, etc. you'd see it was off the mark historically.

BUT . . .  it's based vaguely in life, which is that there is a
continuing controversy over Webern's political values, how much of a
Nazi was he/wasn't he?  I don't know enough about the issue to add
anything of my own, but there are musicologist and historians who have
been pursuing the idea that Webern was, at least, a Nazi sympathizer.

Of course, being actual members of the Nazi party hasn't hurt the
posthumous reputations of Richard Strauss, Karl Boehm, Elizabeth
Schwartzkopf, or Willem Mengelberg [who was a Dutch sympathizer].  I
think that Weben being s subject of such an inquiry at so late a date
[nothing substantiated] marks how deeply antipathetic people still are
to the serial technique.

gg


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "M.A. Piper" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Henry kaiser Web Page
Date: 11 May 1998 11:32:49 -0500 (EST)

The URL is:

 http://php.indiana.edu/~mpiper/HKMain.html

On Mon, 11 May 1998, Louis Schwartz wrote:

    >A month or so ago someone posted the URL for a Henry Kaiser Web Page.  I've
    >recetly lost all my bookmarks and can't find the page.  Could that some one
    >please post it again or send it to me privately?

Best,
M. A. Piper






-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Joseph S. Zitt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Recent Goodies
Date: 11 May 1998 11:40:08 -0500 (CDT)

On Mon, 11 May 1998, George Grella wrote:

> >From that you can get the idea of his basic technique, structured
> freedom (improvisation) for the performer.  The performer gets to make
> certain choices, depending on the piece, but the core idea is Brown's.

That's an interesting idea, which I've mulled around a lot in my own
composing and performing. How does one identify what one is hearing as a
performance of a given piece? For example, if one were to come in in the
middle of an Ornette Coleman performance, how would one know (not having
heard the head) that, say, "Lonely Woman" was being played, rather than
"All my Life"? Is it possible to tell by ear that one is hearing Zorn's
"Cobra" rather than a free improv or a different game being played by that
group of musicians?

This first struck me, BTW (though, of course many people had thought about
it in previous decades) when I heard two performances of a string quartet
by Anthony Braxton: the two performances (one by Kronos and one by the
Robert Schumann Quartet) had no audible connection.

- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: SUGAR in their vitamins? <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Why Zorn
Date: 11 May 1998 09:48:06 -0700 (PDT)

On Mon, 11 May 1998, Jeff Schuth wrote:

> actual music.  Doesn't anyone else get tired about people talking about
> what is good, instead of why something is good?

i'm not sure what you expect,
but it seems to me people have
been discussing exactly that
since the list's inception.

perhaps the only rub is "good"
and "bad" are generally subjective
terms and most people speak
from personal perspective.
i don't think there's any way
around that.

> example: Torture Garden can be listened to rather straight forward and
> for pure musical enjoyment--but how should one listen to Parachute
> years, which to many sounds like plain noise

i bristle at the idea of a prescribed
method. this is one of those things
best left up to the individual.

hasta.

Yes.  Beautiful, wonderful nature.  Hear it sing to us: *snap*  Yes.  natURE.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dan Given <[e-mail]>
Subject: re: icecream w/evan parker (+zoviet:france)for five or six
Date: 11 May 1998 12:33:36 +0100

>I had ice cream w/ Mr. Parker and others afterword and asked him about
>the sort-of recent Zoviet:France gig.  He said ZF were one of several
>groups at the all-night rave in question, and he (EP) played with the
>group for five or six hours until he packed up (at 6:00 in the morning,
>and ZF wanted to keep going!).  I have NO IDEA where to start
>w/Zoviet:France, so if anyone has recommendations, I'd love to hear
>them. (Maybe you should reply off-list.)

Did Parker happen to say if, during this 5 or 6 hours, he stopped and took
the horn out of his mouth, or was this one of his amazing feats of circular
breathing?

Dan


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: George Grella <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Recent Goodies
Date: 11 May 1998 10:18:31 -0800

Joseph S. Zitt writes:

> That's an interesting idea, which I've mulled around a lot in my own
> composing and performing. How does one identify what one is hearing as a
> performance of a given piece? For example, if one were to come in in the
> middle of an Ornette Coleman performance, how would one know (not having
> heard the head) that, say, "Lonely Woman" was being played, rather than
> "All my Life"? Is it possible to tell by ear that one is hearing Zorn's
> "Cobra" rather than a free improv or a different game being played by that
> group of musicians?

I believe this is a structural problem that the composer must solve, and
one in which the comparison between Brown and "Cobra" works better than
between Brown and Ornette; while I do think that "Lonely Woman," as
played, can be picked out even if you start in the middle [the
harmonic/melodic materials mark it instantly for me], the point of the
structure of Ornette's is different than Brown's.

Brown's first "Folio" contains several different pieces, one of which is
entirely graphically notated, another which is written on staves in such
a way that the paper can be turned "upside-down" and the music can still
be read and played.  In each way, this gives structure to the player
throughout the duration of the piece, from specific pitches and rhythms
in the latter to specific, but complete, abstraction in the former.
While performances would be different, the performer(s) is working with
the same score each time.

That's Browns idea.  I can't say how well it works, since the only
performances of "Folio" I've heard are on the "New York School" CD.  I
think it can work, definitely, but it takes a sensitive performance from
players who really know that ideas behind the paper in Brown's work, I
don't think one can pick up the abstract scores in particular and just
start "blowing" them without regard to the context in which they were
produced.

This is all just an example from what I know of Brown's work; I have not
scene all his types of notation, and they are more varied than I've
mentioned above.

gg

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Joseph S. Zitt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Recent Goodies
Date: 11 May 1998 12:39:26 -0500 (CDT)

On Mon, 11 May 1998, George Grella wrote:

> I believe this is a structural problem that the composer must solve, and
> one in which the comparison between Brown and "Cobra" works better than
> between Brown and Ornette; while I do think that "Lonely Woman," as
> played, can be picked out even if you start in the middle [the
> harmonic/melodic materials mark it instantly for me], the point of the
> structure of Ornette's is different than Brown's.

Hmm... while the harmonic/melodic matterials might mark the more
sensitively played versions of "Lonely Woman", I don't think that any
aspects of the piece are prescribed as necessary in the middle, in the way
that bebop changes or the time frames and choices of instruments in Cage's
number pieces are.

> Brown's first "Folio" contains several different pieces, one of which is
> entirely graphically notated, another which is written on staves in such
> a way that the paper can be turned "upside-down" and the music can still
> be read and played.  In each way, this gives structure to the player
> throughout the duration of the piece, from specific pitches and rhythms
> in the latter to specific, but complete, abstraction in the former.
> While performances would be different, the performer(s) is working with
> the same score each time.

Not having seen the score or heard them: in the invertable piece, are the
note streams identifiable as the same piece either way they're played?

The only score of his that I've seen is "November 1952", which is
completely abstract, consisting of lines on a sort of grid (I don't recall
whether the grid is visible).

Playing graphic scores is interesting. At a Comma performancea couple of
weeks ago, we used a painting as a graphic score, though we didn't
pre-plan how we would approach it. The result went over well.

(When I was in high school, I walked out of a workshop with Donald Erb,
since I thought his idea of playing graphic scores was ridiculous. I have
since kicked myself repeatedly for doing so...)

- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Pierre Toussaint <[e-mail]>
Subject: painkiller and zorn interview
Date: 11 May 1998 13:44:42 -0400

Painkiller will play in Montreal on july 8 at Theatre Maisonneuve (same
building as the MSO but not the same stage). This concert is in the
Montrea Jazz Festival series of 1998. Tickets are on sale now.

Other news, there's an interview with Zorn in the Montreal "Mirror" of
may 7 through 14. It's a free newspaper. He's talking about is
participation for the Victoriaville festival of next weekend.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Pierre Toussaint <[e-mail]>
Subject: re: painkiller and zorn interview
Date: 11 May 1998 13:50:07 -0400

If you want more details for yhe painkiller show in montreal go here

http://www.montrealjazzfest.com/

if you want to read the zorn interview go here

http://www.montrealmirror.com/meat/music1.html


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: George Grella <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Sharpish
Date: 11 May 1998 09:14:02 -0800

Oooh, baby,  I thought I had said all I could, but I realize there's a
bit more, mostly for clarification.  But I also want to take the
opportunity to apologize to Zorn listeners in general for for drawing
too broad a picture of the group in my comments, as Chris Hamilton
pointed out to me.  No for the good stuff:

Benjamin Pequet writes:


> In your answer you clearly put things right about the meaning in which you
> take the word politic, and hence why we can't agree. So do you with
> post-modernism.
> You say music is a political thing if it wants to be or if listeners make it
> so for themselves. No, music is economic and music is politic, not just if
> it wants to be (and by the way I have no clue how music could ever chose
> anything for itself). My point was that I am really fighting and having a
> hard time to find my way into the music I listen to because it is meaningful
> to me - be it for esthetic reasons or politic or whatever you wish to
> qualify my reasons.
>

You provide the clue right there, Benjamin.  Music can't choose politics
and economics for itself, music is music.  That's how I take it.  It's
important to me to make the distinction that because YOU say music is
political and economic, it doesn't make it that way for
anyone/everyone.  I raise my voice in opposition to point out that it's
up to you, or me, or whomever.


> I can't nor do I want to get rid
> of the thought that expressions are screened by an amount of political and
> economical parameters, canalized in the press and media, that our tastes are
> shaped in a way or another by what we get to listen, etc.
> To me this is political, in the way that it affects social life. And it
> becomes violent, in the way that as individuals we don't really have a
> choice or that our choices are considerably limited, expressions disappear
> everyday because they don't get to be listened to.
>

But we do have choices.  Don't listen to the radio, don't watch MTV,
don't read the music press.  Explore/Listen/Decide for yourself.  It's
not a perfect world and not every musician with something worth saying
gets their worl distributed, but enough do to provide a huge humber of
choices for active, dedicated listeners.


> I think you chose to take a definition of what is political and what is not
> that is less inclusive than mine. In my sense then you don't make a
> political choice when you think you are making one. But I understand that
> you are logical with your way of looking at things.
>

Benjamin, your definitions or politics and the "post-modern society" are
so broad and thin that they mean nothing to me.  By defining everything
as politicial and post-modern you allow nothing to exist outside those
definitions, allow no opposition with which to sharpen your definition.
It's circular reasoning; everything is politicial, even the things you
don't consider political - that choice alone is political.  It's
tautology and it doesn't hold.


> In what you say something strikes me each time, it is when you shield your
> opinion behind your status of composer or musician, as if this allowed you a
> position outside of the game and hence gave an objective and indiscutable
> quality to your statements.
> You can decide for you that you are not making politics if you decide not
> to, but for me it's a politic statement as well, and with which thus I can't
> agree, at any level. But if that's just to do with the definition I have of
> politics and you of yours that's fine and I don't want to fight for that, as
> long as we understand that our mutual views are valid.
>
  It's not a shield, Benjamin, one doesn't have to be a musician to
express and informed opinion.  I'm trying to make clear and emphasize
that for me, my feelings about music are much more strongly aesthetic
and craft-oriented that political, something that my training as a
musician has influenced.  You see that as a political statement, but as
I write above, seeing EVERYTHING as political makes nothing worth any
politicial currency.  You harm your own views by by making such claims.


> Otherwise I understand we might get to such a ridiculous situation where you
> would for example be ready to quote a booklet (as gospel ?) that you don't
> have right there, to denounce and prove wrong some kind of orthodoxy and
> fan-worship that you see me represent and defend.
>

I quote his statement because it's apposite.  The CD is Ligeti Edition
#3, Works for Piano, featuring his first two books of Etudes and the
first one from the third book.  This is some of the greatest piano music
ever written in the history of music, and Ligeti is forthright in the
notes about writing it because he loves the instrument and the music it
makes.  His ideas are purely aesthetic.  He is just writing music, which
he describes as "neither tonal nor atonal."  It is what it is.  And he
adds "the ironic theatricalizing of the past that is post-modernism is
quite foreign to me."  The guy just wants to make music, free of
politics and theory.  And he has done so, regardless of how wrong you
could tell him he is, Benjamin.  This is a long way of saying "Speak for
yourself," don't presume to describe how music is for everyone.

gg





-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "m. rizzi" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Masada in SF
Date: 11 May 1998 10:50:48 -0700 (PDT)


Yesterdays paper had an advert for a Masada concert at Slim's
in San Francisco on May 30th.

Is this a one-off gig (like last weeks NYC shows) or part
of a tour?

mike

-
[e-mail] -------------------------------------- www.browbeat.com
                   "Another nerd with a soulpatch"
-------- browbeat magazine, po box 11124, oakland, ca 94611-1124 -------

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Joseph S. Zitt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Sharpish
Date: 11 May 1998 13:28:51 -0500 (CDT)

On Mon, 11 May 1998, George Grella wrote:

> You provide the clue right there, Benjamin.  Music can't choose politics
> and economics for itself, music is music.  That's how I take it.  It's
> important to me to make the distinction that because YOU say music is
> political and economic, it doesn't make it that way for
> anyone/everyone.  I raise my voice in opposition to point out that it's
> up to you, or me, or whomever.

I think the point that some of us are making is that while the sheer
sounds of the music are simply sounds, the means of making those sounds
are deeply entangled in politics and economics -- but then, so is any
interaction with other people, some of whom control resources (recording
studios, instruments, performance spaces, publishing companies) that are
necessary for absolutely any type of music to be heard (with the single
exception of body-produced sounds made for whoever happens to be within
earshot). Can you describe any situation, other than that exception (and
the trivial case in which someone has written markings on paper intended
to be turned into music but not yet realized), in which that is not the
case?

(Hmmm... come to think of it, what do _you_ mean when you say "politics"?
We may be working from completely disjunct definitions...)

> But we do have choices.  Don't listen to the radio, don't watch MTV,
> don't read the music press.  Explore/Listen/Decide for yourself.  It's
> not a perfect world and not every musician with something worth saying
> gets their worl distributed, but enough do to provide a huge humber of
> choices for active, dedicated listeners.

It's significant that each choice that you mention is a *negative*,
choosing not to experience something that is out there already. Can we
choose to listen to music that no one is performing?

> I quote his statement because it's apposite.  The CD is Ligeti Edition
> #3, Works for Piano, featuring his first two books of Etudes and the
> first one from the third book.  This is some of the greatest piano music
> ever written in the history of music, and Ligeti is forthright in the
> notes about writing it because he loves the instrument and the music it
> makes.  His ideas are purely aesthetic.  He is just writing music, which
> he describes as "neither tonal nor atonal."  It is what it is.  And he
> adds "the ironic theatricalizing of the past that is post-modernism is
> quite foreign to me."  The guy just wants to make music, free of
> politics and theory.  And he has done so, regardless of how wrong you
> could tell him he is, Benjamin.  This is a long way of saying "Speak for
> yourself," don't presume to describe how music is for everyone.

Considering that he has managed to get his work played by major orchestra
and widely recorded, it appears that he has negotiated the politics and
economics of getting his music heard rather well.

- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re[2]: Cage
Date: 11 May 1998 17:02:03 UT

<<
At 09:21 PM 5/8/98 PDT, you wrote:
>In which recording I find Cage's "4'33''"?
>Thank you,
>Juan


Why not just perform it for yourself?
>>

I would agree.  Walk outside and perform it yourself.
Cage talks in later literature about how he performs it occasionally when he's
out doing one of his mushroom gatherings or anything else.

I've done it a number of times, the most powerful of which was when my wife was
in labor in the triage room and hooked up to the fetal heart monitor.  The room
was so still and the only sound was this intense, liquidy bulbous, rhythmic
zoom.  Not to mention that particular performance had immense emotional value.

I've done it in other places too.  I like empty buildings and stairwells.  Those
are my favorites.  Places that echo and have interesting mechanical noises.  Old
factories or printing shops.  Stuff like that.

The key is to realize that you're listening and to just stop and listen and
appreciate.  If you done that, you've performed the piece, at least how Cage
interpreted it later on.

PeterR

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: George Grella <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Recent Goodies
Date: 11 May 1998 12:05:55 -0800

Joseph S. Zitt writes:


> Hmm... while the harmonic/melodic matterials might mark the more
> sensitively played versions of "Lonely Woman", I don't think that any
> aspects of the piece are prescribed as necessary in the middle, in the way
> that bebop changes or the time frames and choices of instruments in Cage's
> number pieces are.
>

Not prescribed in theory, but in practice . . .  let's just say that I
can identify "Lonely Woman" almost instantly, because of the way people
play it!


> Not having seen the score or heard them: in the invertable piece, are the
> note streams identifiable as the same piece either way they're played?
>
> The only score of his that I've seen is "November 1952", which is
> completely abstract, consisting of lines on a sort of grid (I don't recall
> whether the grid is visible).
>

The note streams should be identifiable with enough experience of the
piece.  The pitches and their order don't change, regardless of what
part of the page you start on.  "November 1952" is part of the first
"Folio," it doesn't have a visible grid, just horizontal and vertical
blocks [I think that's more accurate than lines, since they're not
long].  It's quite beautifully made.

gg


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: George Grella <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Sharpish
Date: 11 May 1998 12:28:29 -0800

Joseph s. Zitt writes:


> I think the point that some of us are making is that while the sheer
> sounds of the music are simply sounds, the means of making those sounds
> are deeply entangled in politics and economics -- but then, so is any
> interaction with other people, some of whom control resources (recording
> studios, instruments, performance spaces, publishing companies) that are
> necessary for absolutely any type of music to be heard (with the single
> exception of body-produced sounds made for whoever happens to be within
> earshot). Can you describe any situation, other than that exception (and
> the trivial case in which someone has written markings on paper intended
> to be turned into music but not yet realized), in which that is not the
> case?
>

Allow me to qualify first; the means of writing a piece are determined
by a composer, the means of making the sound of that music is another
thing.  Our lives to begin with are deeply and irretrievably entangled
in economics, and music is made out of the grist of people's lives.
That entanglement is so intrinsic, however, that it it is no argument at
all to say that all music is economic, it's a tautology.  Might as well
say our lives our deeply entangled in eating and breathing and shitting
and that therefore music is as well.  In fact, that is my personal view;
I know my music is informed by eating and breathing and shitting becuase
I want it to be, I don't want it to be informed by the economics of my
life.

Performance, as I've said before, is a different thing.  Performances
cost money, either the composers own or that of another
person/organization.  So a composer can take a job that pays enough for
them to save up for the cost of performance, or put their energy into
finding a source for funding, among other methods.  A composer may
choose to write music they know will be cheaper to peform, but is NOT
OBLIGATED TO DO SO.

Now, politics, again.  Tell me, what is politics?  If you define it as
relationships betwenn colleagues, for example, then yes, cadging
performances does have its political side.  But if politics is a
constructed theory/ideology that defines one's mediation of public and
private life, then a composer may choose to entangle their music in
politics but is NOT OBLIGATED TO DO SO.  Again, if politics covers every
aspect of living, as Benjamin implied, so that the rejection of politics
is also politicis, then that's simply an argument I will avoid, because
it is an unfair one.

I believe in free will.  I try and exercise it as much as I can, I
especially try to think for myself.  The results of that, and the
results I've seen in the lives of other musicians, shows me that this
political aspect of creativity is OPTIONAL, a CHOICE.  I reject,
absolutely, the deterministic view that politics and economics are the
controlling factors in creating music.  It smacks of the Soviets
proscribing the tritone for political reasons; what political values are
expressed by the tritone?  What are the economic features of a harmonic
minor scale?  If someone believes they can describe them, more power to
them.  I wonder how anyone would know if they were right or not.


> It's significant that each choice that you mention is a *negative*,
> choosing not to experience something that is out there already. Can we
> choose to listen to music that no one is performing?
>

I have 1,000 CDs of music that will never be on MTV.  I have 1,000 CDs
of music for which I've never read any reviews of whatsoever.  They are
actual, physcially existing recordings, a positive presence.  Avoiding
the mainstream, commercially controlled music media does not negate all
music choices; there's other stuff out there; listen to those CDs, go to
those concerts.  That's the "significance" of my choices; I feel like
I'm having to state the stultifyingly obvious here.  As for your
question, I'll leave that to the spirit of John Cage.

gg


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Joseph S. Zitt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Sharpish
Date: 11 May 1998 14:42:04 -0500 (CDT)

On Mon, 11 May 1998, George Grella wrote:

> Performance, as I've said before, is a different thing.  Performances
> cost money, either the composers own or that of another
> person/organization.  So a composer can take a job that pays enough for
> them to save up for the cost of performance, or put their energy into
> finding a source for funding, among other methods.  A composer may
> choose to write music they know will be cheaper to peform, but is NOT
> OBLIGATED TO DO SO.

Hmmm... well, music is sound, no? If one writes notation on a piece of
paper, can that person be said to have made music?

> Now, politics, again.  Tell me, what is politics?  If you define it as
> relationships betwenn colleagues, for example, then yes, cadging
> performances does have its political side.

Good, then we agree.

> But if politics is a
> constructed theory/ideology that defines one's mediation of public and
> private life, then a composer may choose to entangle their music in
> politics but is NOT OBLIGATED TO DO SO.

I don't define politics that way, though some others do and act that way.

> Again, if politics covers every
> aspect of living, as Benjamin implied, so that the rejection of politics
> is also politicis, then that's simply an argument I will avoid, because
> it is an unfair one.

Well, every interaction with other does involve some aspect of politics,
as in your first definition.

> > It's significant that each choice that you mention is a *negative*,
> > choosing not to experience something that is out there already. Can we
> > choose to listen to music that no one is performing?
> >
>
> I have 1,000 CDs of music that will never be on MTV.  I have 1,000 CDs
> of music for which I've never read any reviews of whatsoever.  They are
> actual, physcially existing recordings, a positive presence.  Avoiding
> the mainstream, commercially controlled music media does not negate all
> music choices; there's other stuff out there; listen to those CDs, go to
> those concerts.  That's the "significance" of my choices; I feel like
> I'm having to state the stultifyingly obvious here.

And I feel like the stultifyingly obvious is being missed. Tell me: how
did you learn of and acquire these CDs?

> As for your
> question, I'll leave that to the spirit of John Cage.

The way I see it, music is a way of perceiving sound, not a way of making
it. Can one hear a sound that is not sounded?

- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rich Williams <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: BECK / UNAUTHORIZED DISTRIBUTION OF SOUND RECORDINGS
Date: 11 May 1998 14:57:49 -0500

[e-mail] wrote:


>
> RE: BECK / UNAUTHORIZED DISTRIBUTION OF SOUND RECORDINGS

(a whole bunch of corporate legalese snipped)

    From what Ive heard about "Deconstructing Beck" it seems that it would
easily fall under the category of Parody, and as such, would be
protected from this kind of prosecution.

Rich

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: BECK / UNAUTHORIZED DISTRIBUTION OF SOUND RECORDINGS
Date: 11 May 1998 13:04:35 -0700


On Mon, 11 May 1998 14:57:49 -0500  Rich Williams wrote:
>
> [e-mail] wrote:
>
>
> >
> > RE: BECK / UNAUTHORIZED DISTRIBUTION OF SOUND RECORDINGS
>
> (a whole bunch of corporate legalese snipped)
>
>     From what Ive heard about "Deconstructing Beck" it seems that it would
> easily fall under the category of Parody, and as such, would be
> protected from this kind of prosecution.
        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I hope for them that it won't be the case, because if it is really the way
things end up, the affair will be immediately closed and they won't have
any reasons to complain and act like martyrs.

Let's pray that Geffen gives a hard time to our heros (who are taking so
much risks at trying to piss the big business :-)! If not, we will immediately
forget them, and it would be so sad.

    Patrice.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: George Grella <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Sharpish (now Philoso-fish)
Date: 11 May 1998 13:16:57 -0800

Joseph S. Zitt writes:

First, the hard stuff:


> > I have 1,000 CDs of music that will never be on MTV.  I have 1,000 CDs
> > of music for which I've never read any reviews of whatsoever.  They are
> > actual, physcially existing recordings, a positive presence.  Avoiding
> > the mainstream, commercially controlled music media does not negate all
> > music choices; there's other stuff out there; listen to those CDs, go to
> > those concerts.  That's the "significance" of my choices; I feel like
> > I'm having to state the stultifyingly obvious here.
>
> And I feel like the stultifyingly obvious is being missed. Tell me: how
> did you learn of and acquire these CDs?
>

A lot of them I picked up out of curiousity, they led to others, through
acceptance or rejection, in the same manner.  Others I remembered from
listening to the records of a friend's parents in their basement.  Still
othe; music I had played, or music by people whose music I had play.
Then there was word or mouth, or reputation passed on by other musicians
I had learned from.  There's a lot of options out there other than
"Option," "Wired," "downbeat," MTV, "The New York Times," commercial
radio.  The one radio station that I will gladly thank for pointing out
a lot of unrealized music to me was WKCR, but if anyone wants to claim
that WKCR is part of mainstream, commercial society than I live in a
different universe than they do.

Now, this:


> Hmmm... well, music is sound, no? If one writes notation on a piece of
> paper, can that person be said to have made music?
>


> The way I see it, music is a way of perceiving sound, not a way of making
> it. Can one hear a sound that is not sounded?
>

If someone writes music on a piece of paper, then they have made a piece
of music.  If it is played, then that music has been realized.

I agree that music is a way of perceiving sound.  Your phrasing implies
that it is nothing else, which I would reject.  Music is also something
that is made, it is produced as music, and when played exists as music
in a physical way before the sound waves have actually reached the
listener.  I would not exclude that idea.

And as a composer, I hear sounds that are not sounded, i.e. physically
manifested, all the time, in my head.  That's an indispensible part of
the process for me, since I write away from the piano.

gg


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re[2]: Recent Goodies
Date: 11 May 1998 16:25:43 -0500


     George Grella wrote:

>It's great that Hat is recordings some of his work, but as far as I
>know their stuff, and one Mode record with George Crumb, only features
>Brown's solo and small chamber work.  He was the first lecturer we had
>in when I started grad school at the San Francisco Conservatory of
>Music and he made a big impression on me.  I had only know his scores
>for the first "Folio," beautiful graphic notation.  He played some
>tapes for larger ensembles and orchestral works, intriguing stuff.  He
>also had a great quote; "I want my pieces to sound different each time
>they're played, but I always want them to sound like Earle Brown."

>From that you can get the idea of his basic technique, structured
>freedom (improvisation) for the performer.  The performer gets to
>make certain choices, depending on the piece, but the core idea is
>Brown's.

     Joseph Z. mentioned the piece in a subsequent post, but the one I
     thought of upon reading yours was Zorn's COBRA. I recall JZ (the, um,
     other JZ) likening COBRA to a baseball game: There are a specific set
     of rules such that the result is always a baseball game, but within
     those parameters, the result can vary widely. The "baseballness" will,
     however, always be apparent.

     I love this analogy (and not just bacause I happen to be a wild-eyed
     baseball fan!) though I'm not sure it comes across, audibly, in COBRA.
     I've heard perhaps four or five versions and, while I enjoy most of
     them, don't detect a particularly "Cobraic" aspect. Perhaps I simply
     need to hear more "games" to form a fuller understanding.

     Whether that Brownian quality also percolates up through other
     performances of his graphic scores is something I'm quite interested
     to hear.

     Anyway, thanks to George and Joseph for some enlightening
     back-and-forth.

     Brian Olewnick





-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Robert C. Auten)
Subject: BECK / UNAUTHORIZED DISTRIBUTION OF SOUND RECORDINGS
Date: 11 May 1998 16:50:31 EDT

Just reminding you all that you can get copies (for only 5 bucks, inc.
shipping) by mailing:  [e-mail]  The disc is awesome, believe
me.


And no I have nothing to do w/ this, just proud that a fellow student could
cause all this brouhaha.


Tom Pratt, youre taken care of, btw.


rob

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Dragon -------- Frog)
Subject: Hendrix
Date: 11 May 1998 14:19:12 -0700

I was in my car and suddenly and unexpectedly Hendrix was coming out of
my speakers via an NPR station.

I felt tempted to put lighter fluid to my CD collection and never say
another word about music.

Philosophize all you like.

But, give me Jimi.

DG Sinner

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: SUGAR in their vitamins? <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: BECK / UNAUTHORIZED DISTRIBUTION OF SOUND RECORDINGS
Date: 11 May 1998 15:13:42 -0700 (PDT)

On Mon, 11 May 1998, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:

> I hope for them that it won't be the case, because if it is really the way
> things end up, the affair will be immediately closed and they won't have
> any reasons to complain and act like martyrs.

LOL!

well, i spoke with one of the
participants the other week and
apparently the cease and desist
letter was just a matter of course.
Geffen doesn't plan to enforce
or persue the matter. it's
probably a disappointment for
Mr. Hostler, though. he wanted a court
battle so they could, once and for all,
have a definitive court decision
ala 2 Live Crew, setting a legal
precident for his battle against
the copyright law.

hasta.

Yes.  Beautiful, wonderful nature.  Hear it sing to us: *snap*  Yes.  natURE.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Gauthier Michelle A <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Masada in SF
Date: 11 May 1998 18:21:42 -0400 (EDT)



Hey Mike,


    Yes-- this is only one show that John decided to do at the last
minute.  Not a tour.  This was pretty much decided only within the past
week!  I'm not sure who will be playing exactly yet... but it should be
nice.


m.

On Mon, 11 May 1998, m. rizzi wrote:

>
> Yesterdays paper had an advert for a Masada concert at Slim's
> in San Francisco on May 30th.
>
> Is this a one-off gig (like last weeks NYC shows) or part
> of a tour?
>
> mike
>
> -
> [e-mail] -------------------------------------- www.browbeat.com
>                    "Another nerd with a soulpatch"
> -------- browbeat magazine, po box 11124, oakland, ca 94611-1124 -------
>
> -
>
>


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re[2]: Cage
Date: 11 May 1998 17:02:03 UT

<<
At 09:21 PM 5/8/98 PDT, you wrote:
>In which recording I find Cage's "4'33''"?
>Thank you,
>Juan


Why not just perform it for yourself?
>>

I would agree.  Walk outside and perform it yourself.
Cage talks in later literature about how he performs it occasionally when he's
out doing one of his mushroom gatherings or anything else.

I've done it a number of times, the most powerful of which was when my wife was
in labor in the triage room and hooked up to the fetal heart monitor.  The room
was so still and the only sound was this intense, liquidy bulbous, rhythmic
zoom.  Not to mention that particular performance had immense emotional value.

I've done it in other places too.  I like empty buildings and stairwells.  Those
are my favorites.  Places that echo and have interesting mechanical noises.  Old
factories or printing shops.  Stuff like that.

The key is to realize that you're listening and to just stop and listen and
appreciate.  If you done that, you've performed the piece, at least how Cage
interpreted it later on.

PeterR

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Date: 11 May 1998 18:19:15 -0600

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George <[e-mail]> wrote:

>Oooh, baby,  I thought I had said all I could, but I realize there's a
>bit more, mostly for clarification.  But I also want to take the

Alright, my understanding indeed is that most of what you add in your las=
t
posts don't add much to what's been said already. In what you answer
directly to me I often feel like you say what I said already or you phras=
e
exactly what I tried to articulate - so I think we finally got somewhere.
And for now I don't feel like I have much to add. I am glad Joseph
<[e-mail]> joined and gave new impulses and clarifications.

Dammit, have you noticed how ironic it is that the humansystems joins the
conversation and answers to the decisionanalytics of George ?=20

I don't want to quote everything you write and with which I agree George.
Simply to say that I agree wholeheartedly. Nor quote what I can't agree
with and actually repeat what I said already, why I can't agree with you =
on
these ones.=20
Just two or three points, for the sake of being complete I guess, not for
having the last word or something like that.=20

>But we do have choices.  Don't listen to the radio, don't watch MTV,
>don't read the music press.  Explore/Listen/Decide for yourself.  It's
>not a perfect world and not every musician with something worth saying
>gets their worl distributed, but enough do to provide a huge humber of
>choices for active, dedicated listeners.

I join Joseph on his comments to that. And George what you write there is=
 a
bit optimistic I think.=20
But that is merely the point I defend from the beginning, we do have
choices, we do have to make choices. And that's politics in the way that
you finally admitted in your answer to Joseph, we all agree.=20

>> I think you chose to take a definition of what is political and what i=
s not
>> that is less inclusive than mine. In my sense then you don't make a
>> political choice when you think you are making one. But I understand t=
hat
>> you are logical with your way of looking at things.
>>
>
>Benjamin, your definitions or politics and the "post-modern society" are
>so broad and thin that they mean nothing to me.  By defining everything
>as politicial and post-modern you allow nothing to exist outside those
>definitions, allow no opposition with which to sharpen your definition.
>It's circular reasoning; everything is politicial, even the things you
>don't consider political - that choice alone is political.  It's
>tautology and it doesn't hold.

Actually I don't remember posting my definitions of politics or
post-modernism on this list (mainly for the two reasons that I feel I mis=
s
theoretic background of what's been said and written on the topic already=
,
to feel free to post it as 'mine' and that it's not really the point of
this list to get too theoretical, I assumed would lead a bit far and you
would accuse me of talking philosophy and not facts). Okay it probably di=
d
lead us to misunderstandings.
Whatever. I just want to point to the fact that you tell me that my
definitions don't hold but I didn't give my definitions. What I did is I
made statements and I based my statements on what for me was political an=
d
what for me was post-modern. And I explained, I said why for me something
was political or not and I put what you were saying in relation to that.
But I never gave a definition here as such.=20
In clear you can't sum up what I said to the 'everything is in everything=
'
like you seem to do here. I think I've been a bit more subtle than that.
But it's true I don't ask you to follow me that far. =20

>  It's not a shield, Benjamin, one doesn't have to be a musician to
>express and informed opinion.  I'm trying to make clear and emphasize
>that for me, my feelings about music are much more strongly aesthetic
>and craft-oriented that political, something that my training as a
>musician has influenced.  You see that as a political statement, but as
>I write above, seeing EVERYTHING as political makes nothing worth any
>politicial currency.  You harm your own views by by making such claims.

You are saying that we come from different backgrounds and look at things
from different angles. I understand and agree with all that you write,
except of course the last sentence.

>makes.  His ideas are purely aesthetic.  He is just writing music, which
>he describes as "neither tonal nor atonal."  It is what it is.  And he
>adds "the ironic theatricalizing of the past that is post-modernism is
>quite foreign to me."  The guy just wants to make music, free of
>politics and theory.  And he has done so, regardless of how wrong you
>could tell him he is, Benjamin.  This is a long way of saying "Speak for
>yourself," don't presume to describe how music is for everyone.

Same thing. It would be very stupid of me to say Ligeti is wrong. We're n=
ot
talking about the same thing. Or we're talking about the same thing with
different words. Or with the same words, but with different acceptions. I
never said Ligeti is wrong. I didn't know the text you were referring to.=
=20


INTERLUDE

- When I use a word, Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, it
means just what I choose it to mean neither more or less.=20
- The question is, said Alice, whether you can make words mean so many
different things.=20
- The question is, said Humpty Dumpty, which is to be master - that=92s a=
ll.=20
Lewis Carroll









-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Brian Olewnick <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Why Zorn (or anyone else?)
Date: 11 May 1998 21:53:18 -0400

Jeff Schuth wrote:

>    I want to know how people listen to their music.

For me, not so much "how" as "why"? Psychologist Nicholas Humphrey,
author of the wonderful book, "Leaps of Faith" (a study of why people
feel the need to adopt supernatural belief systems), put it well when
asked, along with many others, for his most important unanswered
question: "Why is music such a pleasure?"

Now, there's a question!

Brian Olewnick

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Jeff Schuth" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Why Zorn (or anyone else?)
Date: 11 May 1998 19:05:21 PDT



>From [e-mail] Mon May 11 18:55:09 1998
>Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 1.82 #1)
>    id 0yZ4Ft-0004C0-00; Mon, 11 May 1998 19:53:21 -0600
>Received: from (u3.farm.idt.net) [169.132.8.12] (root)
>    by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 1.82 #1)
>    id 0yZ4Fr-0004Bm-00; Mon, 11 May 1998 19:53:19 -0600
>Received: from brian---linda-s (ppp-20.ts-8.nyc.idt.net
[169.132.98.164])
>    by u3.farm.idt.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA23172;
>    Mon, 11 May 1998 21:53:16 -0400 (EDT)
>Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
>Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 21:53:18 -0400
>From: Brian Olewnick <[e-mail]>
>Reply-To: [e-mail]
>X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-IDT-v5  (Win95; U)
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>To: [e-mail], Jeff Schuth <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Re: Why Zorn (or anyone else?)
>References: <[e-mail]>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
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>
>Jeff Schuth wrote:
>
>>    I want to know how people listen to their music.
>
>For me, not so much "how" as "why"? Psychologist Nicholas Humphrey,
>author of the wonderful book, "Leaps of Faith" (a study of why people
>feel the need to adopt supernatural belief systems), put it well when
>asked, along with many others, for his most important unanswered
>question: "Why is music such a pleasure?"
>
>Now, there's a question!
>
Yeah, I think that is the more appropriate question Brian; I just found
it to be a difficult question to put into writing.  However, how music
is enjoyed might answer the question: "why is music such a pleasure?"
For people who say, music is personal and enjoyed on a personal level (I
agree with this), then why are certain albums or performers enjoyed  at
such a grand scale?  Or is that just hype?
>Brian Olewnick
>
>-
>
>


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Christopher Hamilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Why Zorn (long)
Date: 11 May 1998 22:28:00 -0400 (EDT)



On Mon, 11 May 1998, Jeff Schuth wrote:

>    I don't think that anyone got the point of my initial comment, so Ill
> just come out and say it: there is hardly any discussion here on the
> actual music.

I suspect the problem was that your original post was so broad.  It seems
unlikely that anyone enjoys music as different as _Locus Solus_ and
_Redbird_ for the same reasons.  Focusing on a specific work as you did in
this post might be more productive.

> Torture Garden can be listened to rather straight forward and
> for pure musical enjoyment--but how should one listen to Parachute
> years, which to many sounds like plain noise

Your choice of albums here is kind of amusing; _Torture Garden_ is pretty
darn noisy, and, while I think it's great stuff, it doesn't hit my
turntable nearly as often as the Parachute stuff hits my CD player.

     Having said that, I think free music and similar-sounding stuff is
usually best approached first as pure sound, without trying to
conceptualize it. I usually respond to this music physically, letting it's
rhythms jerk me around or tapping out little counterrhythms.  I bathe in
the textures.  If I can identify an sound source, I get vicarious pleasure
from the physical production of the sound (at least with certain
instruments).

     On a more conceptual level I listen for interaction, both between
players and between individual players and their earlier selves.  More
specifically with the Parachute material, I try to follow the structure of
the piece as best I can glean it from liner notes and experiences with
other game pieces. Sometimes I think about the performances' similarity to
other music I know: work by Stockhausen or Roscoe Mitchell for a lot of
this stuff.  Or I think about it in the context of Zorn's earlier and
later work.  And a lot of times I sit around and zone out or write to it,
treating it as ambient music.

     What I don't do with this music is slap a generic label on it and
understand it as an instance of a musical type with a prescribed reaction.
_Torture Garden_ (and, to a much greater extent, _Naked City_ and
_Radio_), it seems to me, require this sort of response to a large degree.
The music does its work by playing on that response.  For me, that pushing
of a very intellectual, conceptual aspect of the music to the foreground
short circuits my physical reaction, making it more difficult to listen
for pleasure.  But obviously I'm in the minority here; different people
get pleasure differently.  (Or maybe others find that the genre play makes
the visceral reaction easier?)

Chris Hamilton


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Christopher Hamilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: BECK / UNAUTHORIZED DISTRIBUTION OF SOUND RECORDINGS
Date: 11 May 1998 22:36:00 -0400 (EDT)



On Mon, 11 May 1998, Rich Williams wrote:

>     From what Ive heard about "Deconstructing Beck" it seems that it would
> easily fall under the category of Parody, and as such, would be
> protected from this kind of prosecution.

I'm not a lawyer, but I'm under the impression that parody doesn't
constitute fair use of recorded material.  (The 2 Live Crew/Roy Orbison
case involved parodic use of Orbison's song not his recordings.)  If I'm
wrong, I'd like to be told about it.

Chris Hamilton


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Benjamin Pequet <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Sharp/Arthur (2)
Date: 12 May 1998 08:24:51 +0200

Joseph <[e-mail]> wrote :

>I think the point that some of us are making is that while the sheer
>sounds of the music are simply sounds, the means of making those sounds
>are deeply entangled in politics and economics -- but then, so is any
>interaction with other people, some of whom control resources (recording
>studios, instruments, performance spaces, publishing companies) that are
>necessary for absolutely any type of music to be heard (with the single
>exception of body-produced sounds made for whoever happens to be within
>earshot). Can you describe any situation, other than that exception (and
>the trivial case in which someone has written markings on paper intended
>to be turned into music but not yet realized), in which that is not the
>case?

and

>It's significant that each choice that you mention is a *negative*,
>choosing not to experience something that is out there already. Can we
>choose to listen to music that no one is performing?

This reminds me of comments made by and on Arthur Doyle after the release
of recordings he had made during his French incarceration, basically
recorded on a magnetophone, in the context of his isolation - and as he
states himself, from the material of his incarceration, explaining later in
the interview that his music exposes him to social incarceration anyway.
Making sense to you ? I would have to listen to that now (Songbook, on
Audible Hiss) and read the interviews again.

And what George <[e-mail]> replies:

>Allow me to qualify first; the means of writing a piece are determined
>by a composer, the means of making the sound of that music is another
>thing.  Our lives to begin with are deeply and irretrievably entangled
>in economics, and music is made out of the grist of people's lives.
>That entanglement is so intrinsic, however, that it it is no argument at
>all to say that all music is economic, it's a tautology.  Might as well
>say our lives our deeply entangled in eating and breathing and shitting
>and that therefore music is as well.  In fact, that is my personal view;
>I know my music is informed by eating and breathing and shitting becuase
>I want it to be, I don't want it to be informed by the economics of my
>life.

This reminds me of:
'I'd like to have the strength to write in this diary things of this kind:
today I shitted this way, I made love this way, I thought this of this or
that person, I wanked, I ate well, I laughed at this stupidity, at that
moment of the day I thought I had some genius, I was flattered by this or
that thing I got told, I hoped to be published in this magazine, by this
editor, I was scared by this thing, etc...'
Michel Leiris 'Journal', 1929

But whatever.
George:

>I have 1,000 CDs of music that will never be on MTV.  I have 1,000 CDs
>of music for which I've never read any reviews of whatsoever.  They are
>actual, physcially existing recordings, a positive presence.  Avoiding
>the mainstream, commercially controlled music media does not negate all
>music choices; there's other stuff out there; listen to those CDs, go to
>those concerts.  That's the "significance" of my choices; I feel like
>I'm having to state the stultifyingly obvious here.  As for your
>question, I'll leave that to the spirit of John Cage.

I'd like to have the strength, George.
Not to make you feel guilty or anything but I have a couple of cds. I can't
afford buying cds and it's been months that I can't even rent them anymore.
It's not really a choice you know.

Not to speak again of the limitations imposed on me by the medias for what
I will listen, I am dependent also on what concerts are programmed in my
country and in what city. I am very much dependent on the train schedules.
Which means I can go to almost nothing. And also I have to screen a great
deal of events lately because I can't pay for them anyway George... it's
true I can take a job that pays enough for me to save up for the cost of
performance, or put my energy into finding a source for funding, among
other methods, or may choose music I know will be cheaper... ).

Not only that the day has been long and that I am falling asleep now
(Joseph ! I think I hear sounds that are not sounded !).

More power to me !
Benjamin


> person/organization.  So a composer can take a job that pays enough for
> them to save up for the cost of performance, or put their energy into
> finding a source for funding, among other methods.  A composer may
> choose to write music they know will be cheaper to peform, but is NOT
> OBLIGATED TO DO SO.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Eric C. Honour, Jr." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Socio-political composition
Date: 12 May 1998 03:00:31 -0500


>INTERLUDE
>
>- - When I use a word, Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, it
>means just what I choose it to mean neither more or less.=20
>- - The question is, said Alice, whether you can make words mean so many
>different things.=20
>- - The question is, said Humpty Dumpty, which is to be master - that=92s a=
>ll.=20
>Lewis Carroll
>

Here we have a quote from Carroll dealing with the issue of the creator's
intent (as viewed through vocabulary choice) used to illustrate the point
that we are all trapped in our own socio-political worlds when it comes to
composition -- does this make sense?  I would agree that everyone is shaped
by the world around them; I don't believe that any composer composes in a
vacuum (possible space shuttle projects notwithstanding).

I also don't believe, though, that the majority of composers out there are
intending for their music to carry political content.  Any socio-political
content derived from a piece of music is necessarily  a product of the
listener, possibly influenced by extra-musical content such as the title of
the piece, program notes, text/libretto, etc.  The sounds themselves do not
carry political content -- an individual can HEAR symphonic music as
bourgeois, but that is because of the way that individual has been shaped
by experience and education.  In truth, if a composer TRIES to communicate
a political message, you won't get it unless you've been primed for it.  If
you played a recording of "The Star-Spangled Banner" performed by the U.S.
Marine Band for someone raised in a bubble -- someone who had never heard
Western music, never heard of the United States, never heard band music,
etc., they would not be prepared to take any sort of political message from
that music.  On the other hand, when Jimi Hendrix played the Star-Spangled
Banner, it was for an audience inculcated with the necessary information to
appreciate political content.  When the Red-Hot Chili Peppers included a
snippet of it on one of their albums, the content had to ALSO include the
fact that Jimi played it.

What I'm getting at is that it's pretty silly to judge music based on its
socio-political content (except as a purely personal judgement) and even
sillier to believe that other people will automatically agree -- we've all
been shaped differently.

> I can't
>afford buying cds and it's been months that I can't even rent them anymore.
>It's not really a choice you know.
>
>Not to speak again of the limitations imposed on me by the medias for what
>I will listen, I am dependent also on what concerts are programmed in my
>country and in what city. I am very much dependent on the train schedules.
>Which means I can go to almost nothing. And also I have to screen a great
>deal of events lately because I can't pay for them anyway George... it's
>true I can take a job that pays enough for me to save up for the cost of
>performance, or put my energy into finding a source for funding, among
>other methods, or may choose music I know will be cheaper... ).
[snip]
>More power to me !
>Benjamin
>

This argument has been occurring on two levels from the beginning, which is
frustrating to watch.  George seems to have been speaking of the composer
and the process of composition while Benjamin and Joseph seem to have been
talking about the world in which the composer, performer, and listener all
live; not only the special sub-world containing the three of them in
relation to each other, but the complex meta-world that is created by the
union of all their experieces in the "real world" outside.

Yes, Benjamin, we are all trapped by the world around us.  This is true of
composers, too.  While I will agree that this shapes the music we write, I
believe the constraints and shapes a composer consciously imposes on the
work are the truly important ones, as these are the only ones over which
the composer has control.

As to the whole idea of composers manipulating the political world around
them... it happens, of course.  I don't know what to say exactly, except
that composers are all (in my experience) idealistic people.  Those ideals
are not always the same from composer to composer.  I'm sure that there are
as many musicians who do not believe in the worth of Cage's or Zorn's music
as those who dislike the music of Boulez (in MOST cases, musicians would
deny the worth of any of these composers -- especially classical and pop
musicians).  Given that there is only so much money to go around, it's a
surety that someone will be shortchanged.  Any composer who doesn't take
maximum advantage of his or her opportunities is volunteering to be the
shortchangee.

Politically shaped by Ayn Rand,
Eric

--------------------------
Eric C. Honour, Jr.
Composer * Saxophonist * Graphic Designer
MMus (Saxophone Performance and Composition)
Northwestern University
[e-mail]
--------------------------
Black holes are where God divided by zero.



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Yves Dewulf <[e-mail]>
Subject: steve zorn
Date: 12 May 1998 11:07:06 +0200


The Knitting factory-page mentions an improv-night with Zorn.
(Mainspace, May 14)
It features a certain Steve Zorn on drums,
is this an KF-error or is this guy related to one of the JZ's .

YVes

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Marc Downing <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Why Zorn (or anyone else?) (long)
Date: 12 May 1998 09:06:55 -0400

>>"Why is music such a pleasure?"
>>
>>Now, there's a question!
>>
>Yeah, I think that is the more appropriate question Brian; I just found
>it to be a difficult question to put into writing.  However, how music
>is enjoyed might answer the question: "why is music such a pleasure?"
>For people who say, music is personal and enjoyed on a personal level (I
>agree with this), then why are certain albums or performers enjoyed  at
>such a grand scale?  Or is that just hype?

Tough question, and disturbing.  I think of it as the "Mona Lisa" question.
"Hype" has so many component parts; you've got the piece itself, you've got
a body of critical work discussing the piece, you've got the mental image
of the piece stored in the minds of its audience either through media or
through personal experience (actually seeing the painting, hearing the
music, etc.), you've got spin-off pieces based on the original (Mona Lisa
T-shirts, "Ode to Joy" television advertisements selling dairy products,
etc.), the fame of which sometimes exceeds the original ...

"Hype", too, is different for different art forms.  Let's say that
Beethoven's Ninth is "hyped".  I can now hear it performed eighty times
more frequently than Ligeti's Requiem precisely because it's already hyped.
Hype can be self-propagating.  For me, the most extreme and horrifying
example is the Mona Lisa:

A handful of security guards wheezing "No flash!  No flash!" every twenty
seconds, all day, to prevent the painting, which is veiled by a slab of
bulletproof glass, from being damaged by flashbulbs, trying to make
themselves heard over a mob which has a complete personnel change about
every seven minutes.  Thousands of people a day, clawing at the
sweat-soaked shirt of the person in front, to see this painting.  The
painting which has, for about a decade, been a reproduction.  The real Mona
Lisa is in storage.

Now THAT's hype.

Since none of us are listening to music in a vacuum, we can't ignore the
impact hype has on what it is that we do.  In the last exchange between JZ
and GG, we've seen two approaches to it, (1) an acceptance of it as an
inextricable factor of our lives and (2) a self-conscious avoidance of it
(1000 CD's? NONE of which have been reviewed? Wow ...).

My collection of CD's is quite different from GG's.  I have plenty of hyped
pieces alongside my more obscure recordings.  I like the physical reaction
I have to music.  I like the mental landscapes that seem to conjure
themselves for me when I listen to music.  I love spending energy simply on
listening, which in iteself can be an intensely creative activity.  But I
can't ignore the fact that hype can, in itself, in some people, produce a
similar reaction.

Ever known anyone who's cried watching a television ad (ar at least anyone
who's admitted to it)?

Ever seen Cats?  The horror ...





-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Caleb Deupree)
Subject: ground zero/cassiber
Date: 12 May 1998 09:18:17 -0400

The new Wayside catalog was delivered to my house yesterday, and it
lists the 2cd set of live Cassiber and Ground Zero remixes as a new
release on ReR, due in stock June 15.  It was apparently the final
Cassiber tour, so it is claimed to be the last album from both groups.
The more-or-less domestic release on ReR should make this fairly
easily available, although the catalog still refers to the label as
originating in the UK.

---
Caleb T. Deupree
;; Opinions...  funny thing about opinions, they can change.

Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers.
(Pablo Picasso)


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Burton's Ed Wood
Date: 12 May 1998 10:26:39 -0300

Back to Earth!!
Last night I watched (for the sixth time) on TV the amazing,
outstanding, terrific Tim Burton's "Ed Wood".
Is there anybody out there who enjoyed anytime this film? And the Howard
Shore's soundtrack ? Reviews?

You can email me privately as it isn't (maybe) a Zorn related subject.

-Hugo

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re:Hendrix
Date: 12 May 1998 13:52:06 UT

<<
I was in my car and suddenly and unexpectedly Hendrix was coming out of
my speakers via an NPR station.

I felt tempted to put lighter fluid to my CD collection and never say
another word about music.

Philosophize all you like.

But, give me Jimi.

DG Sinner
>>

Every time I catch a tune on the radio or go back and listen to an album, I
can't help but think where did this guy come from and how could he be so
awesome.

And I don't even particularly like electric guitar.

What a man.

PeterR

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re[2]: Why Zorn
Date: 12 May 1998 13:49:31 UT

<<
> actual music.  Doesn't anyone else get tired about people talking about
> what is good, instead of why something is good?
>>

I think that one of the biggest problems with that is that everyone listens to
music for different reasons, even if it's the same music.  Take the Top 20's as
examples, there's tons of stuff on there I'd never care to listen to, as it's
just not my bag.  But I can still come here and read, share and discuss with
people with similar (but not the SAME) interests.  That's important.

My favorite example is Can, who I dearly love, but nobody seems to hear the same
things in Can as I do, as evidenced by all those post-rock bands I dislike so
much who all say they were "influenced" by Can.  Clearly they're listening to a
different band than I am, or at least in a different way, even though we all
agree Can is "good."

Then there the "I love King Crimson" syndrome, where a group of people all agree
they love King Crimson, but I love the 72-74 era, someone else loves the early
orcehstral era and someone else absolutely digs the Adrian Belew early 80's era.
 It's the same band, we all agree it's good, but for completely different
reasons.

Zorn is like that, but more so, in that his brush is so broad.  We all agree
that Zorn has something going, but we'll never agree what among his canon of
work is "good", as it's all personal.

Maybe you'd like to find out "why something is good for me."  But I think we get
a lot of that in the subtext of the discussions here, if not direct ponderings.
Plus, "why something is good to me" posts sorta read like diary excerpts and can
seem fairly self-serving.  I'd much rather read an accurate description of the
music and maybe some reflection on it, as opposed to a rambling missive of what
a person likes or doesn't like.

But that's just me.
Anyway.
I guess that's my rambling missive.

PeterR

now playing: Secret Chiefs 3 - Second Grand Constitution and Bylaws

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DR S WILKIE <[e-mail]>
Subject:       Re: Why we listen to music
Date: 12 May 1998 14:40:24 GMT0BST

Leibniz said something to the effect that music is the pleasure that
the soul takes from numbers (or their relationships?) without being
conscious of that fact.  Anyone know the quote?  It's probably
limited to the extent that it doesn't say anything about certain
aspects of music (timbre); otherwise, it's the best I've heard.

On another thread:
Saying that everything is politics is totally unhelpful, for the
reasons indicated (tautology, lack of contrast, ...)  On the other
hand, it would or could be interesting to develop an argument
thatclaimed there were political aspects to the decision of someone
to eschew politics for aesthetics (in their pursuit of music): after
all, just because one says it ("it's not political") doesn't
necessarily mean it's so.  It's characteristic of truly dominant
ideas about the organisation of society and the dependence and
interdependence of its various aspects, to pass themselves off as not
political at all, but merely common sense, brute fact, the real
world, etc.  And one might say; if it's political to believe that
music can't avoid, and should face up to being tangled in the web of
money power love war profit unemployment etc.  isn't it just as
political to believe that it can and should avoid all this (in the
sense that they're equally ideas about the relationship of music to
life)?

Well, I think there've been enough long mails about this

Sean Wilkie













-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Julian" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Why Zorn
Date: 13 May 1998 00:16:05 +1000

> now playing: Secret Chiefs 3 - Second Grand Constitution and Bylaws

Kind of an interesting album, isn't it? The inclusion of some real
instruments instead of keyboards this time, courtesy of Eyvind Kang on
violin and Trey Spruance on trumpet is a particularly nice touch. William
Winant does some excellent work here too. Check it out folks...


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Brent Burton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Magazines
Date: 12 May 1998 10:54:29 -0400 (EDT)

On Fri, 8 May 1998, Steve Smith wrote:

> but as an example of what's wrong with the magazine, try this passage
> from the March/April issue's review of Matt Shipp and Joe Morris's
> "Thesis"......
>
> "People who are really into this sort of thing might be able to tell you,
> in a blindfold test, that this was in fact not Cecil Taylor and Derek
> Bailey.  It's difficult to know how they would know that..."

i remember reading this and being completely pissed off.  it's like, "why
bother with this music because it all sounds the same"!  you would hope
for something less inane from a music magazine, which purports to
cover musical *options*.  hell, even rolling stone writers would have
the dignity to @ least pretend they knew what they were talking about
when reviewing jazz.  i know that option sends out packs of discs that
reviewers oftfew writers who knew a little bit about jazz.

b

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Brent Burton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Magazines
Date: 12 May 1998 11:04:39 -0400 (EDT)

On Tue, 12 May 1998, Brent Burton wrote:

> i remember reading this and being completely pissed off.  it's like, "why
> bother with this music because it all sounds the same"!  you would hope
> for something less inane from a music magazine, which purports to
> cover musical *options*.  hell, even rolling stone writers would have
> the dignity to @ least pretend they knew what they were talking about
> when reviewing jazz.  i know that option sends out packs of discs that
> reviewers oftfew writers who knew a little bit about jazz.

sorry, that last sentence was supposed to say:
i know that option sends out packs of discs to reviewers who often don't
care for 90% of the music included therein, but you would think the
editors could @ least keep a couple writers around who knew a little bit
about jazz.

b


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: George Grella <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [none]
Date: 12 May 1998 09:03:23 -0800

Someone, Benjamin I think, writes:


> I join Joseph on his comments to that. And George what you write there is=
>  a
> bit optimistic I think.=20
> But that is merely the point I defend from the beginning, we do have
> choices, we do have to make choices. And that's politics in the way that
> you finally admitted in your answer to Joseph, we all agree.=20
>

Optimistic to you, maybe, but actual experience to me.  If anyone looks
at the music they listen to, finds it wanting, and then blames the media
for that, then they've given up.  As listeners, we have a lifetime to be
curious and explore our aural desires in many, many ways.  One way I'd
like to add is find a good music library, go there and pull things off
the shelves at random to listen to.  See what you find.  Yes, blame the
media for marketing the lame and the bland, but blame yourself if you
don't bother to put in the personal energy to get beyond that.

And I want to be clear about this politics issue; what we are agreeing
on is that politics exists in all music if we accept a certain
definition of politics, i.e. the dynamics of human relationships.  I
used that as an example for argument's sake; to me personally, that is
politics only in its most trivial sense, like office politics, and don't
personally agree with that definition.  So we'll have to each have our
own, differing beliefs, which will usually be my point anyway.

gg


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: George Grella <[e-mail]>
Subject: Baseball
Date: 12 May 1998 09:06:06 -0800

Brian Olewnick mentioned that he's a big baseball fan, and I'm with him
there.  And it got me to thinking something last night, after listening
to William Schuman and reading about Charles Ives.  Both composers
played baseball, Schuman professionally in the minor leagues, and I
would assume they remained fans of the game [Ives even has a piano piece
called "Some Southpaw Pitching"].  Anyone else know of any definite
baseball fan musicians?  Does the packaging and titling of "Yankees"
indicate a personal interest in the game on the part of John Zorn?

gg


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: George Grella <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Why Zorn (or anyone else?) (long)
Date: 12 May 1998 09:47:10 -0800

Marc Downing writes:

> Since none of us are listening to music in a vacuum, we can't ignore the
> impact hype has on what it is that we do.  In the last exchange between JZ
> and GG, we've seen two approaches to it, (1) an acceptance of it as an
> inextricable factor of our lives and (2) a self-conscious avoidance of it
> (1000 CD's? NONE of which have been reviewed? Wow ...).
>
> My collection of CD's is quite different from GG's.  I have plenty of hyped
> pieces alongside my more obscure recordings.  I like the physical reaction
> I have to music.  I like the mental landscapes that seem to conjure
> themselves for me when I listen to music.  I love spending energy simply on
> listening, which in iteself can be an intensely creative activity.  But I
> can't ignore the fact that hype can, in itself, in some people, produce a
> similar reaction.

Folks, let me point out that I was using a bit of hyperbole.  Of course
I've purchased CDs based on reviews and advertising, but I also
purchased many, many CDs based on NONE of that.  I'm seeing so many
self-assured, sweeping comments in here that "all things are this way"
that, when accumulated,  make me want to point out the exceptions.
Forgive my license to hyperbole to counter the equally hyperbolic claims
of Objective Truth.

Like the claim of 'Hype.'  I'll grant that, but it's also a subjective
measure.  Marc says the Beethoven 9th is hyped, I say it's a great piece
of music.  We can both be right, but to only say it's 'hyped' sounds
pejorative.  Somethings can be hyped because they're worth it, other
things can be hyped when they're not worth it at all.  I read a
favorable review of a recording of Mahler 6 in the American Record
Guide, and I purchased it based on that, my experience with the magazine
and the peformers.  It sucked.  So yeah, I bought into the 'hype,' but
then when I experienced it for myself, I rejected the hype.  It can
happen.  Just as I bought "Full Force" out of plain curiousity when the
original LP came out; I had never even heard of the AAOC before, I just
wanted to try something new.  That can happen to.

I realize perhaps what the basic difference between my views and others'
here is; I try to be as inclusive and open-minded as possible, defer to
the possibilities of human experience and ideas, while I see many
reductive, deterministic viewpoints in opposition to that.  I would
grant those latter viewpoints, but I disagree that they speak for
everyone and everything.

gg

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Chris from Zeke's" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Baseball
Date: 12 May 1998 12:55:32 -0400

George Grella brought up the fact that:

Ives even has a piano piece
called "Some Southpaw Pitching".

Schuman turned Casey at the Bat into an Opera that has been recorded at
least twice.
Danny Kaye was a huge Brooklyn Dodgers fan.
I also have a copy of The Brooklyn Baseball Cantata (although I can't
remember if it was Danny Kaye, Robert Merrill, or somebody else who sang
it.)

And while trying to find out who sang it, I came across this link, A
Bibliography of Baseball Music Titles.

http://www2.ari.net/home/odenwald/ballb/intro.html

Anyone else know of any definite
baseball fan musicians?

Also, although it he is more of a "pop" singer, at a recent Dan Bern show he
made 4 separate references (3 in song) to baseball. Sandy Koufax, Willie
Mays, Jackie Robinson, and Felipe Alou.

S'later
Zeke


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Joseph S. Zitt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Baseball
Date: 12 May 1998 12:01:49 -0500 (CDT)

On Tue, 12 May 1998, George Grella wrote:

> Brian Olewnick mentioned that he's a big baseball fan, and I'm with him
> there.  And it got me to thinking something last night, after listening
> to William Schuman and reading about Charles Ives.  Both composers
> played baseball, Schuman professionally in the minor leagues, and I
> would assume they remained fans of the game [Ives even has a piano piece
> called "Some Southpaw Pitching"].  Anyone else know of any definite
> baseball fan musicians?  Does the packaging and titling of "Yankees"
> indicate a personal interest in the game on the part of John Zorn?

Milton Babbitt is a huge baseball fan. His piece "Around the Horn", as
well as some others, are based on aspects of the game. (Amusingly, the
speakers giving excruciatingly detailed analyses of the piece at the
recent Babbitt symposium at the Library of Congress never spotted this,
and, as Babbitt told us in his closing remarks, gave completely erroneous
analyses... which I guess show us again that a complicsted enough system
of analysis can make anything appear to fit its mold (hence, also, the
Bible Code).)

Going farther infield, I understand that Meat Loaf and Bruce Springsteen
are also very into baseball...

 -
---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Joseph S. Zitt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Why Zorn (or anyone else?) (long)
Date: 12 May 1998 12:06:44 -0500 (CDT)

On Tue, 12 May 1998, George Grella wrote:

> I realize perhaps what the basic difference between my views and others'
> here is; I try to be as inclusive and open-minded as possible, defer to
> the possibilities of human experience and ideas, while I see many
> reductive, deterministic viewpoints in opposition to that.  I would
> grant those latter viewpoints, but I disagree that they speak for
> everyone and everything.

Hmm... I don't recall seeing any messages that reflect those supposed
reductive, deterministic, opposing viewpoints. Will those who hold them
please raise your hands?

- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Mark Saleski <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Why Zorn (or anyone else?)
Date: 12 May 1998 13:25:23 -0400





> Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 09:06:55 -0400
> From: Marc Downing <[e-mail]>
> Subject: Re: Why Zorn (or anyone else?) (long)
>
> >>"Why is music such a pleasure?"
> >>
> >>Now, there's a question!
> >>

i've been reading a book called Music,The Brain and Ecstacy that deals with some of
these issues.it's about a lot more that that but i thought some of you out there
might be interested. here's a review:

http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/books/Jourdain97.html



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Joseph S. Zitt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Socio-political composition
Date: 12 May 1998 12:28:14 -0500 (CDT)

On Tue, 12 May 1998, Eric C. Honour, Jr. wrote:

>
> This argument has been occurring on two levels from the beginning, which is
> frustrating to watch.  George seems to have been speaking of the composer
> and the process of composition while Benjamin and Joseph seem to have been
> talking about the world in which the composer, performer, and listener all
> live; not only the special sub-world containing the three of them in
> relation to each other, but the complex meta-world that is created by the
> union of all their experieces in the "real world" outside.

That looks like an accurate summary to me. Benjamin's description of the
financial realities involved in access to outside music hits several nails
on the head: while I would guess that the income and lifestyle of people
on this list (as shown by being Net-connected) is at least a bit higher
than the world norm, how many people in, as you call it, the "real world"
are financially able to go out and attend concerts and buy CDs on a whim
knowing nothing about the music -- or even to go to a nearby well-clued,
well-stocked CD store and listen to what's in stock?

> Yes, Benjamin, we are all trapped by the world around us.  This is true of
> composers, too.  While I will agree that this shapes the music we write, I
> believe the constraints and shapes a composer consciously imposes on the
> work are the truly important ones, as these are the only ones over which
> the composer has control.

Hmm... I don't see either set of constraints as more or less important
than the other.  Both affect the shape of the work. What is most important
is to recognize the parameters within which you're working, both
externally and self-imposed, and to do your best between them.

> Politically shaped by Ayn Rand,
> Eric

Literarily annoyed by Ayn Rand (and politically shaped by Pete Seeger),
Joe

- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Joseph S. Zitt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Why Zorn (or anyone else?)
Date: 12 May 1998 12:37:32 -0500 (CDT)

On Tue, 12 May 1998, Mark Saleski wrote:

> i've been reading a book called Music,The Brain and Ecstacy that deals with some of
> these issues.it's about a lot more that that but i thought some of you out there
> might be interested. here's a review:
>
> http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/books/Jourdain97.html

Thanks for the pointer! From reading that review (and others posted at
amazon.com), it looks like a must-read. The publication info, snarfed from
amazon, is:

Music, the Brain & Ecstasy : How Music Captures Our
Imagination
by Robert Jourdain
Paperback, 377 pages
Published by Avon Books (Pap Trd)
Publication date: March 1998
Dimensions (in inches): 1.13 x 8.08 x 5.36
ISBN: 038078209X
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---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: George Grella <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Baseball
Date: 12 May 1998 11:02:00 -0800

Joseph S. Zitt writes:


> Going farther infield, I understand that Meat Loaf and Bruce Springsteen
> are also very into baseball...
>

I like the remarks on Babbitt, who woulda thunk it?  I know the Boss is
a big fan, I often wonder about jazz musicians, though, which ones like
to go out to the ballpark.

gg


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: George Grella <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Why Zorn (or anyone else?) (long)
Date: 12 May 1998 11:04:10 -0800

Joseph S. Zitt writes:


> Hmm... I don't recall seeing any messages that reflect those supposed
> reductive, deterministic, opposing viewpoints. Will those who hold them
> please raise your hands?
>

HUH?!?!?!  After all this discussion of whether politics/economics are
the determining factors in musical expression?  I've not been talking to
my alter egos out here.

gg


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Joseph S. Zitt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Why Zorn (or anyone else?) (long)
Date: 12 May 1998 13:07:30 -0500 (CDT)

On Tue, 12 May 1998, George Grella wrote:

> Joseph S. Zitt writes:
>
>
> > Hmm... I don't recall seeing any messages that reflect those supposed
> > reductive, deterministic, opposing viewpoints. Will those who hold them
> > please raise your hands?
> >
>
> HUH?!?!?!  After all this discussion of whether politics/economics are
> the determining factors in musical expression?  I've not been talking to
> my alter egos out here.

Er, what? Has anyone here said that "politics/economics are the
determining factors in musical expression" ?

- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: George Grella <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Why Zorn (or anyone else?) (long)
Date: 12 May 1998 11:46:08 -0800

Joseph S. Zitt writes:


> Er, what? Has anyone here said that "politics/economics are the
> determining factors in musical expression" ?
>

I'm only going to go back as far as yesterday, because this whole thing
has gotten tiresome for me, personally [speaking only for myself], but
we had an exchange that touched on the political/economic entanglements
of composition, where I repeated the vital, IMO, delineation between
creation and performance, all of which came from a response to Benjamin
who has been highly deterministic in his economic/political/"media"
views on making and listening to music, which all originally began with
an amalgam of Boulez/Zappa/Ben Watson and Watson's comment the the
symphony orchestra is a bourgeois expression which I responded to by
saying the music played by the orchestra was the composers expression
which began this whole mess of whether the composer can handle their own
bag, the American rugged individualist mythos as you described, or
whether they were helpless in their creative process before
political/economic forces, which, if they composer is helpless, are
deterministic forces, whether someone, anyone, has used that exact word
or not.  Now I shut up.  Thankfully to most, I'm sure.

gg


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Joseph S. Zitt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Why Zorn (or anyone else?) (long)
Date: 12 May 1998 13:54:24 -0500 (CDT)

On Tue, 12 May 1998, George Grella wrote:

> I'm only going to go back as far as yesterday, because this whole thing
> has gotten tiresome for me, personally [speaking only for myself], but
> we had an exchange that touched on the political/economic entanglements
> of composition, where I repeated the vital, IMO, delineation between
> creation and performance, all of which came from a response to Benjamin
> who has been highly deterministic in his economic/political/"media"
> views on making and listening to music, which all originally began with
> an amalgam of Boulez/Zappa/Ben Watson and Watson's comment the the
> symphony orchestra is a bourgeois expression which I responded to by
> saying the music played by the orchestra was the composers expression
> which began this whole mess of whether the composer can handle their own
> bag, the American rugged individualist mythos as you described, or
> whether they were helpless in their creative process before
> political/economic forces, which, if they composer is helpless, are
> deterministic forces, whether someone, anyone, has used that exact word
> or not.  Now I shut up.  Thankfully to most, I'm sure.

Ah, OK -- you saw the rational consideration of one's environment as
helplessness. It all becomes clear.

- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Michael Howes <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: ground zero/cassiber
Date: 12 May 1998 12:02:34 -0700

>The new Wayside catalog was delivered to my house yesterday, and it
>lists the 2cd set of live Cassiber and Ground Zero remixes as a new
>release on ReR, due in stock June 15.

 Is the Ground Zero release;
"Conflagration, Project : Consume / Consuming Ground-Zero Vol. 2" ?

 If it is it's the 2nd part in the 3 part series. All three are out and
I've had this one for 3 or 4 months.
Remixes of tracks from Consumed Red (if I remember) from Ground Zero by
Gastr Del Sol, Stock, Hausen & Walkman (who have a new album out), Violent
Onsen Geisha, Bob Ostertag and a couple others.

mike
[e-mail]





-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tom Benton <[e-mail]>
Subject: The Webern Nazi thing...
Date: 12 May 1998 14:17:39 -0500 (CDT)

I shouldn't have deleted that mail, but oh well.  I'm going to ask anyway.
To whoever posted the 'Webern Was A Double Agent for the Nazis' article:
Any idea of the origin of this?  It's gotten me very intrigued, despite
the questionable amount of truth involved...



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: ground zero/cassiber
Date: 12 May 1998 12:27:41 -0700


On Tue, 12 May 1998 12:02:34 -0700  Michael Howes wrote:
>
> >The new Wayside catalog was delivered to my house yesterday, and it
> >lists the 2cd set of live Cassiber and Ground Zero remixes as a new
> >release on ReR, due in stock June 15.
>
>  Is the Ground Zero release;
> "Conflagration, Project : Consume / Consuming Ground-Zero Vol. 2" ?

No, it is this one:


099 - LIVE IN TOKYO: Cassiber

  Disc 1: Cassiber Live In Tokyo
    1/ A Screaming Comes Across The Sky         (Cassiber, Pynchon)      2:15
    2/ They Have Begun To Move                  (Cassiber, Pynchon)      5:11
    3/ They Go In Under Archways                (Cassiber, Pynchon)      2:49
    4/ Philosophy                               (Cassiber, Cutler)       0:54
    5/ Gut                                      (Rene Lussier, Anders)   3:03
    6/ Prisoner Chorus                          (Cassiber, Anders)       3:38
    7/ Todo Dia                                 (Cassiber)               3:12
    8/ Come On! Start The Show!                 (Anders, Pynchon)        3:10
    9/ It's Never Quiet                         (Cassiber, Cutler)       2:49
    10/ O Cure Me                               (Cassiber, JS Bach)      3:32
    11/ Our Colourful Culture                   (Cassiber, Cutler)       2:29
    12/ Prometheus                              (Cassiber, Cutler)       5:01
    13/ Remember                                (Cassiber, Cutler)       2:24
    14/ I Was Old                               (Cassiber, Cutler)       5:14
    15/ Orpheus Mirror                          (Cassiber, Anders)       4:39
    16/ I Tried To Reach You                    (Cassiber, Cutler)       2:42
  Disc 2: "Cassiber Live In Tokyo" Re-mixed by Ground Zero
    17/ Across The Sky #1                         20:27
    18/ O Cure @ Me                              6:15
    19/ Gutt                                  4:34
    20/ Across the Sky #2 (4:25)
    21/                                    12:49
      21a/ Across the Sky #3
      21b/ At Last I Am Free
      21c/ Across the Stars

    (1-16) recorded at Shin-okubo R's Art Court, Tokyo on October 23, 1992
    (17-21) sampled and re-mixed at A-102, Tokyo in September-November 1997
    (17-21) additional recording at Gok Sound, Tokyo in October-November 1997
    (1-16) produced by Heiner Goebbels
    (17-21) produced by Otomo Yoshihide
    Produced by Shigenori Noda

  Christoph Anders: vocals, sampler, guitar; Chris Cutler: drums, percussion,
  electronics; Heiner Goebbels: piano, sampler, Chinese violin, guitar,
  vocals; Masami Shinoda: alto; Otomo Yoshihide (17-21): turntables, CD-J,
  hard-disk recorder, rythm box, self-made guitar; Tatsuki Masuko (17,19):
  DX-7; Mizuhiro (17,19): Mono-Poly; Kazunao Nagata (17): ARP 2600; Haco (18):
  voice; Michiyo Yagi (18): 20-string koto, teeth clack; Sachiko M (18,19,21):
  sampler; Masahiro Uemura (18,19): drums; Yoshimitsu Ichiraku (18): electro-
  nic sounds; Shuichi Chino (19-21): piano, combo organ; Junji Hirose (21):
  tenor; Naruyoshi Kikuchi (21): tenor; Yasuhiro Otani (21): computer; Mitsuru
  Nasuno (21): bass; Yasuhiro Yoshigaki (21): drums.

    1997 - Off Note (Japan), ON-25 (2xCD)

  Note: all the music on (17-21) is based on source material from "Cassiber
  Live In Tokyo."


    Patrice.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DJaySteve <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn List Digest V2 #366
Date: 12 May 1998 15:29:11 EDT

In a message dated 5/12/98 12:15:28 PM EDT, owner-zorn-list-
[e-mail] writes:

> Steve Zorn on drums,
I once saw zorn at the Village Gate in an early hardorepunk project. The
drummer was zorns cousin and at the time, early/mid 1980s, he was about 13
years old, and one of John Zorns punk influences. Maybe Steve Zorn?

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Baseball
Date: 12 May 1998 15:31:53 -0400 (EDT)


    Let's not get sidetracked into a discussion of which musician
*likes* baseball (or hockey or chess or etc.). It's a question of how
that interest affected his or her music. I personally abhor all sports in
general, but that doesn't mean that I ignore Albert Ayler's playing
because he was a good golfer or Cecil Taylor's because he played
basketball in high school.
    As I said let's talk about sports influence on art. Right now, in
fact, David Murray, DD Jackson, Taj Mahal and, I think, another writer
are working on a musical based on the Negro League of the 1940s. That's
something I would go see, though you couldn't pay me (well maybe bribe
me with an unreleased Ayler tape) to watch a professional baseball game.

Ken Waxman
[e-mail]







On Tue, 12 May 1998, George Grella wrote:

> Joseph S. Zitt writes:
>
>
> > Going farther infield, I understand that Meat Loaf and Bruce Springsteen
> > are also very into baseball...
> >
>
> I like the remarks on Babbitt, who woulda thunk it?  I know the Boss is
> a big fan, I often wonder about jazz musicians, though, which ones like
> to go out to the ballpark.
>
> gg
>
>
> -
>
>

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Why Zorn (or anyone else?) (long)
Date: 12 May 1998 12:37:11 -0700


On Tue, 12 May 1998, George Grella wrote:
>
> I realize perhaps what the basic difference between my views and others'
> here is; I try to be as inclusive and open-minded as possible, defer to
            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This is the kind of things you left to other to say... But I understand
that if they don't, you are left to yourself to preach the gospel.

> the possibilities of human experience and ideas, while I see many
> reductive, deterministic viewpoints in opposition to that.  I would
> grant those latter viewpoints, but I disagree that they speak for
> everyone and everything.

That's the problem with life: people never understand how great your
vision about things is :-).

Being a composer, I am sure it is a serious dilemna to you. Seriously,
when people dismisses your music, do you complain the same way (like:
"I try my best to make the greatest and most original music ever
written, but people just don't get it").

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: George Grella <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Baseball
Date: 12 May 1998 12:38:36 -0800

Ken Waxman writes:


>         Let's not get sidetracked into a discussion of which musician
> *likes* baseball (or hockey or chess or etc.). It's a question of how
> that interest affected his or her music. I personally abhor all sports in
> general, but that doesn't mean that I ignore Albert Ayler's playing
> because he was a good golfer or Cecil Taylor's because he played
> basketball in high school.
>

No, let's DO get sidetracked.  Why the hell not?  After all, that was
exactly what I was curious about.  A love of baseball is something that
I have and would view favorably in someone else.  I'd like to know what
musicians love the game.  Maybe I'd give them a second chance!

William Schuman wrote a short opera, "Casey At The Bat," which is
exactly what it says.  Would you, Ken, go see that if you were
interested in Schuman's work?

gg


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Baseball
Date: 12 May 1998 16:02:35 -0400 (EDT)


Sure, if I liked Schuman. But what about you? What if you found out that
someone you admire, Zorn, let's say, absolutely hated baseball? Would
that downgrade his music in your estimation?

Ken Waxman
[e-mail]



On Tue, 12 May 1998, George Grella wrote:

> Ken Waxman writes:
>
>
> >         Let's not get sidetracked into a discussion of which musician
> > *likes* baseball (or hockey or chess or etc.). It's a question of how
> > that interest affected his or her music. I personally abhor all sports in
> > general, but that doesn't mean that I ignore Albert Ayler's playing
> > because he was a good golfer or Cecil Taylor's because he played
> > basketball in high school.
> >
>
> No, let's DO get sidetracked.  Why the hell not?  After all, that was
> exactly what I was curious about.  A love of baseball is something that
> I have and would view favorably in someone else.  I'd like to know what
> musicians love the game.  Maybe I'd give them a second chance!
>
> William Schuman wrote a short opera, "Casey At The Bat," which is
> exactly what it says.  Would you, Ken, go see that if you were
> interested in Schuman's work?
>
> gg
>
>

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Matthew R Levitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: What makes jewish music?
Date: 12 May 1998 15:15:55 -0500 (CDT)


I'm looking for all of the good discussion on Jewish music and I've been
having trouble finding any of it in the archives.  I'm specifically
referring to the talk about what makes Jewish music....and the two Great
Jewish Music comps.  If anyone has their original posts they could forward
me that would be great...otherwise if you have any idea of what
months/weeks this thread took place let me know.  I'm working on a project
dealing with essentialism in Zorn's theory of music.

    -Matt




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Knutboy <[e-mail]>
Subject: Discographys
Date: 12 May 1998 16:23:33 EDT

Anyone out there have discography's for both Actuel and Shander labels? I'm
desperately looking for both. Please e-mail me privately if you can help.

Thanks!
Steve Knutson

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rob DeNunzio <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: steve zorn
Date: 12 May 1998 13:35:56 -0700

I know that John has family out here in Oregon (Eugene, Salem area
notably), including a nephew who's got a wonderful reputation as a drummer.
Problem is, I can't remember his name. More than likely it's the same guy.
All in the family... not bad, really

Rob DeNunzio
Hi-Fi Mundo
http://www.teleport.com/~hifim

At 11:07 AM 5/12/98 +0200, Yves Dewulf wrote:
>
>The Knitting factory-page mentions an improv-night with Zorn.
>(Mainspace, May 14)
>It features a certain Steve Zorn on drums,
>is this an KF-error or is this guy related to one of the JZ's .
>
>YVes
>
>-
>
>
>


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Mike Chamberlain)
Subject: Re: Baseball
Date: 12 May 1998 20:25:40 GMT

[e-mail],Internet writes:
>Brian Olewnick mentioned that he's a big baseball fan, and I'm with him
>there.  And it got me to thinking something last night, after listening
>to William Schuman and reading about Charles Ives.  Both composers
>played baseball, Schuman professionally in the minor leagues, and I
>would assume they remained fans of the game [Ives even has a piano piece
>called "Some Southpaw Pitching"].  Anyone else know of any definite
>baseball fan musicians?  Does the packaging and titling of "Yankees"
>indicate a personal interest in the game on the part of John Zorn?

If you are not referring exclusively to contemporary musicians who might be
discussed on this list, I know of a number of jazz musicianers who were
baseball fans, beginning with Louis Armstrong.  Harry James was apparently a
very good ballplayer, I think an outfielder.  Lionel Hampton was an honorary
third base coach for the Kansas City Monarchs at one time.  Stories abound of
swing-era musicians who would stop the band bus at ball fields for impromptu
games.

BTW, George, I am new to this list, but I think I may have met you at the
Cooperstown Synposium a couple of years ago (1995 actually).  Could this be
possible.

--Mike Chamberlain

gg


-


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Mike Chamberlain)
Subject: Re: Baseball
Date: 12 May 1998 20:57:26 GMT

Ken Waxman,[e-mail],Internet writes:

> What if you found out that
>someone you admire, Zorn, let's say, absolutely hated baseball? Would
>that downgrade his music in your estimation?

Of course not.  But everything I know about a musician obviously in some way,
no matter how vague or ill-defined, enhances my appreciation of what he/she
does.

--Mike

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Mike Chamberlain)
Subject: Re: Baseball
Date: 12 May 1998 20:29:43 GMT

[e-mail],Internet writes:
Joseph S. Zitt writes:


>> Going farther infield, I understand that Meat Loaf and Bruce Springsteen
>> are also very into baseball...
>>
>
>I like the remarks on Babbitt, who woulda thunk it?  I know the Boss is
>a big fan, I often wonder about jazz musicians, though, which ones like
>to go out to the ballpark.

George Thorogood played semipro ball in his younger days.

I forgot to mention this in my previous post: I have a friend who went to his
first major league game at Yankee Stadium in the eary 60s with Pepper Adams,.
Tommy Flanagan, and Art Taylor.  Tommy (perhaps I should call him Mr.
Flanagan) is still a baseball fan.

--Mike


gg



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Brian Olewnick <[e-mail]>
Subject: More Roscoe Mitchell in NYC
Date: 12 May 1998 18:08:35 -0400

Petr Kotik's SEM Ensemble is presenting a concert on Wednesday, May 20,
8PM at Alice Tully Hall. Program:

Kotik        Fragment for Orchestra 2
Mitchell    Fallen Heroes
Handel        Solomon
Feldman        For Samuel Beckett

Tix $18-30.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Benjamin Pequet <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [none] but the world is 1
Date: 12 May 1998 23:03:51 +0200

George this is a message I hesitated to send just to you or to the list,
because I think this is getting a bit personal and not really leading us
anywhere anymore. This is true for the first part of it.

I understand the argument that it is probably frustrating to look at
(Eric). And I agree also there have been enough long posts about this (Dr
Wilkie).

>> I join Joseph on his comments to that. And George what you write there is=
>>  a
>> bit optimistic I think.=20
>> But that is merely the point I defend from the beginning, we do have
>> choices, we do have to make choices. And that's politics in the way that
>> you finally admitted in your answer to Joseph, we all agree.=20
>>
>
>Optimistic to you, maybe, but actual experience to me.  If anyone looks
>at the music they listen to, finds it wanting, and then blames the media
>for that, then they've given up.  As listeners, we have a lifetime to be
>curious and explore our aural desires in many, many ways.  One way I'd
>like to add is find a good music library, go there and pull things off
>the shelves at random to listen to.  See what you find.  Yes, blame the
>media for marketing the lame and the bland, but blame yourself if you
>don't bother to put in the personal energy to get beyond that.

George what makes you say that I blame the medias and am doing nothing,
that I gave up ! This I could find insulting because I believe in the exact
opposite than what you seem to attribute to me. I think I never wrote
anything that can make you assume that I don't do exactly what you advice
me to do. Yes, find a good music library and pull things off the shelves.
But I want to do more than that. If you think I'm grumpy I think a capacity
of indignation is healthy and also really needed. I mean in what I wrote
from the beginning is present the idea that for a bunch of reasons not
everybody finds his or her way to a good music library, and that once you
are in the place you still have to make your own trajectory through the
shelves.
For being of the two sides of the counter of such a music library actually
I see a bit of how hectic the trajectory of the average listeners, people
who don't have the chance that you have or that I have (I taped more music
that you have cds) to listen to music all day. And somehow I feel
concerned. But I never tried to impose my way of looking at things to
anyone, for as far as I can know.
I think Joseph is right in pointing that we are probably here a bit higher
than the world norm in some way (even if I am sorry to use expressions such
as 'average listener' and 'higher than the world norm'... these are just
convenient for what we are trying to say and also I am sure Joseph don't
use that expression with pejorative, or meliorative connotations).

I believe that there is certainly a good study to make about the patterns
of listening and the trajectories people develop in what they listen. And I
believe nothing at all of that kind has ever been done scientifically -
here again if I'm wrong I would very much appreciate to be put right.

Where do people look for their aural pleasure and where do they find it ?
Personally I don't listen to music for my pleasure. Not that I would force
myself to listen to something that I don't want to listen, what I mean is
that I did hit walls within me when I started to listen to some things.
Some things of Zorn by the way were painful to listen to. But appealing for
some reason, that I started to find out only later. And rewarding.
And if at some point I am used to listening to what I listen to I think
it's a really bad sign. Or if sometime I can say I know exactly why I
listen to what I listen to, then I guess it's time for me to retire.

Hmm. Well.
Now 1. Is someone up to explain an European the rules of Baseball ?
2. I'm listening to a to me enigmatic volume 2 of Keiji Haino/Loren
MazzaCane Connors cd. There is no comment or anything on the cover or on
the disc. I didn't see a volume 1 yet but I'm sure soon. But I suspect
there could be no more comment on it. Who is Loren MazzaCane Connors ?
He/she reveals a Keiji Haino that I didn't know.
3. Who are Ayn Rand and Pete Seeger ?

Benjamin

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Benjamin Pequet <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: decomposition & reconstruction (was: Socio-political)
Date: 12 May 1998 23:58:58 +0200

>Here we have a quote from Carroll dealing with the issue of the creator's
>intent (as viewed through vocabulary choice) used to illustrate the point
>that we are all trapped in our own socio-political worlds when it comes to

I agree. A quote used to illustrate whatever you want to see it illustrate.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "David J. Strauss" <[e-mail]>
Subject: VISION ONE ltd. COMPILATION (fwd)
Date: 12 May 1998 20:29:36 -0400 (EDT)


I was asked to forward this. As it includes a previously unreleased Zorn
track, it seems more than appopriate.

DS
[e-mail]

---------- Forwarded message ----------

Hello so quickly again,

I've made a few mentions of this here and there and received a number of
inquiries;but FINALLY (like the previous e..) I am sitting down to send
the word:::

The tremendous (and it is...) compilation outlined below will be arriving
here by next Monday May 18th, the first day of the Third Annual Vision
Festival, where it will be sold that entire week.   The AUM mail order
price is $25 per set; send your checks in now and you will be assured a
copy.   At the end of the festival; the remaining copies will be made
available and sold to Aum's distributors.

All exclusive recordings made at the Second Annual Vision Festival/NYC in
May 1997;

Strictly Limited Edition of 1000.

This compilation was produced by AUM Fidelity as a benefit for VISION FEST
'98; remarkably during this past month of April for readiness on MAY 18th.


VISION ONE: Vision Fest 1997 Compiled  (AUM007/8)  2xCD

   DISC 1
HURRICANE: Trio Hurricane                                            6.30
MARK DRESSER QUARTET: Bosnia                                   7.30
JOHN ZORN / SUSIE IBARRA: Untitled             5.15
WILLIAM PARKER & THE LITTLE HUEY
 CREATIVE MUSIC ORCHESTRA: Excerpt from Hoang      13.30
THURSTON MOORE / LAWRENCE COOK / JON VOIGT:
  Fuzz Against Junk                      7.50
ROB BROWN / MATTHEW SHIPP: Vision Statement 2          9.25
DAVID S. WARE QUARTET: Lockup '97              8.20
BORAH BERGMAN+DENIS CHARLES+ROY CAMPBELL:
  We Remember You                      7.20

   DISC 2
COOPER-MOORE QUARTET: Coleus In Bloom/Paradox          13.30
PATRICIA NICHOLSON ENSEMBLE: Song                5.15
RASHIED ALI'S PRIMA MATERIA: Excerpt from Meditation   7.30
BILL COLE'S UNTEMPERED ENSEMBLE:
  Excerpt from Seasoning The Greens              15.10
BUTCH MORRIS: Excerpt from Conduction #7                     7.30
ASSIF TSAHAR TRIO with JOHN TCHICAI: Event Horizon    10.00
OTHER DIMENSIONS IN MUSIC: Dewey's Banquet            12.30



And again, now is a good time to double or triple up your order with the 2
additional new / 3 outstanding Aum titles.

Kind Regards,

Steven Joerg
AUM  FIdelity
PO Box 170147
Brooklyn, NY 11217
http://www.aumfidelity.com







-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Christopher Hamilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Socio-political composition
Date: 12 May 1998 21:04:04 -0400 (EDT)



On Tue, 12 May 1998, Eric C. Honour, Jr. wrote:

> The sounds themselves do not
> carry political content --

The sounds themselves don't carry any content at all.

<Reasonable argument that socio-political content depends on the
listener's background snipped>

> What I'm getting at is that it's pretty silly to judge music based on its
> socio-political content (except as a purely personal judgement)

Which is to say music shouldn't be judged on its content?  (I'm not saying
that all content is socio-political, just that the things you say about
socio-political content are true of every other kind as well.)

Chris Hamilton



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Peter Hollo <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Why Zorn (or anyone else?) (long)
Date: 13 May 1998 12:33:53 +1000

Funny, I don't find the Mona Lisa all that compelling. And I HATE the
Ode to Joy, but then I dislike most Beethoven. Gimme Schubert chamber
music over any Beethoven any day!
Is that because I also hate advertising in general? Am I immune to hype?
Or am I just susceptible to a different kind of hype, in the realm I
find cool? I don't think so - I listen to a lot of "idm" ("intelligent
dance music") but when something's hyped on the email list and I listen
to it and am not interested, I'm not interested. I like what conforms to
my own criteria. Similarly I like certain John Zorn releases, and the
cacophanic type ones just don't interest me. I like powerful noisy stuff
but not if sounds totally random.
Whatever, some thoughts I guess.
Why Zorn? Because some of his music is impeccably created and
extraordinarily powerful and being Jewish I'm susceptible to the Jewish
related music in particular. It appeals to the musician in a lot of us
too, I think - musicians' music in a way, because it yields a lot to
performers and composers too.

Peter.
--
Peter Hollo    [e-mail]    http://www.cia.com.au/raven/
             FourPlay - Eclectic Electric String Quartet
              http://www.cia.com.au/raven/fourplay.html
"Of course, dance music can be a music where you lie on your back and
your brain cells dance" -Michael Karoli of Can, quoted in Wire mag.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [none] but the world is 1
Date: 13 May 1998 00:13:20 -0400

Benjamin Pequet wrote:

> He/she reveals a Keiji Haino that I didn't know.

This reminds me: I recently got a Nijiumu (sp?) CD, and was quite taken
with Keiji Haino's singing. Are there other releases that focus on that,
rather than his instrumental work?

> 3. Who are Ayn Rand and Pete Seeger ?

Pete Seeger is one of the key figures in American folk music. Both alone
and with his group The Weavers he did a lot to popularize folk, as well
as writing many memorable songs of his own. He has also been quite
active politically in areas such as the environment, union organizing,
and civil rights.

Ayn Rand was a novelist and, according to some, a philosopher. I leave
it to anyone who thinks she was competent in either field to say more.

--
---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Charles Gillett" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [none] but the world is 1
Date: 13 May 1998 00:24:40 +0000

On Tue, 12 May 1998 23:03:51 +0200, Benjamin Pequet wrote:
> 2. I'm listening to a to me enigmatic volume 2 of Keiji Haino/Loren
> MazzaCane Connors cd. There is no comment or anything on the cover or on
> the disc. I didn't see a volume 1 yet but I'm sure soon. But I suspect
> there could be no more comment on it. Who is Loren MazzaCane Connors ?
> He/she reveals a Keiji Haino that I didn't know.

   There is a brief biography at the RoadCone website:

http://www.teleport.com/~roadcone/MazzaCane.html

It's hard to find information about him.  I get the impression that
there is no "Volume 1" as such, but there is an album documenting an
earlier performance of Haino with Connors.  Someone on this list
mentioned that Haino seems to somewhat imitate the people he plays
with (on the Connors duet, the Derek Bailey duet, etc.) but I can't
back that up with my own observations.

   Bouncing back to an earlier topic, I purchased "Consume Red" on
Monday.  Grueling.  The last ten minutes were a chore, but I made it
through to the end and seem to be unharmed.  I also got a Sun City
Girls CD, which was more immediately enjoyable.  Whatever that's worth.


-- Charles



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Eric C. Honour, Jr." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Babbitt and baseball
Date: 13 May 1998 00:43:29 -0500


>
>Milton Babbitt is a huge baseball fan. His piece "Around the Horn", as
>well as some others, are based on aspects of the game. (Amusingly, the
>speakers giving excruciatingly detailed analyses of the piece at the
>recent Babbitt symposium at the Library of Congress never spotted this,
>and, as Babbitt told us in his closing remarks, gave completely erroneous
>analyses... which I guess show us again that a complicsted enough system
>of analysis can make anything appear to fit its mold (hence, also, the
>Bible Code).)
>
>Going farther infield, I understand that Meat Loaf and Bruce Springsteen
>are also very into baseball...
>
> -
>- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
>|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
>||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
>|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|
>
>


Babbitt has written an excellent piece for saxophone titled "Whirled Series."

Eric

P.S.  It's hard as nails, if any of you saxophonists out there would like
to give it a shot.

--------------------------
Eric C. Honour, Jr.
Composer * Saxophonist * Graphic Designer
MMus (Saxophone Performance and Composition)
Northwestern University
[e-mail]
--------------------------
Black holes are where God divided by zero.



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Eric C. Honour, Jr." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Content in music
Date: 13 May 1998 00:56:05 -0500


>------------------------------
>
>Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 21:04:04 -0400 (EDT)
>From: Christopher Hamilton <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Re: Socio-political composition
>
>On Tue, 12 May 1998, Eric C. Honour, Jr. wrote:
>
>> The sounds themselves do not
>> carry political content --
>
>The sounds themselves don't carry any content at all.
>
><Reasonable argument that socio-political content depends on the
>listener's background snipped>
>
>> What I'm getting at is that it's pretty silly to judge music based on its
>> socio-political content (except as a purely personal judgement)
>
>Which is to say music shouldn't be judged on its content?  (I'm not saying
>that all content is socio-political, just that the things you say about
>socio-political content are true of every other kind as well.)
>
>Chris Hamilton
>

That's a really excellent point -- I guess that I should have carried my
statement through to its conclusion, which is that each person has to judge
for him- or herself (since reactive content of all types is relative to the
listener).

I don't agree, though that the sounds do not carry any content at all.
There are all the (simple or complex) relationships between acoustics,
rhythm, pacing, and the like which actually exist in the real, physical
world.  Granted that psychological interpretation of those parameters may
change from person to person, I think that there ARE deterministic
statements that can be made about music (i.e. "a sound occurred and it
lasted for 5 seconds").  In the sense, then, that content is transmitted
information, I have to say that music can deliver unencumbered content.

I do not believe that there is anyone who can listen to music solely on the
basis of this sort of content, though, so it's purely sophistry on my part
to bring it up.  :)

Eric

--------------------------
Eric C. Honour, Jr.
Composer * Saxophonist * Graphic Designer
MMus (Saxophone Performance and Composition)
Northwestern University
[e-mail]
--------------------------
Black holes are where God divided by zero.



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Stefan Verstraeten <[e-mail]>
Subject: reissue john zorn
Date: 13 May 1998 09:08:55 +0200

Dear Zornies,

A few days ago I bought the new reissue of the 1982 celluloid album
'Yankees' by Derek Bailey, George Lewis and John Zorn.

Anyway, for those who like the duck call, the games pieces and other
stuff.... check this album out...

The label is Charly (german label) and the product number is cdgr221

See ya
--
Stefan Verstraeten

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Craig Rath <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [none] but the world is 1
Date: 13 May 1998 03:53:16 -0500

> 2. I'm listening to a to me enigmatic volume 2 of Keiji Haino/Loren
> MazzaCane Connors cd. There is no comment or anything on the cover or on
> the disc. I didn't see a volume 1 yet but I'm sure soon. But I suspect
> there could be no more comment on it.


For the best listing of Haino's output go to Dave Keffer's site at:

http://www.planetc.com/users/keffer/haino/index.html


Information on volume 1 of Haino/Conners can be found there.




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DR S WILKIE <[e-mail]>
Subject:       Re: Leibniz
Date: 13 May 1998 09:37:39 GMT0BST

"... further, even the pleasures of the senses reduce to intellectual
pleasures known confusedly.

"Music charms us, even though its beauty consists only in the
harmonies of numbers and in a calculation that we are not aware of,
but which the soul nevertheless carries out, a calculation concerning
the beats or vibrations of sounding bodies, which are encountered at
certain intervals.  The pleasures that sight finds in proportions are
of the same nature, and those caused by the other senses amount to
something similar, even though we might not be able to explain it so
distinctly"

- Leibniz, Principles of Nature and Grace, #17

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Craig Rath <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [none] but the world is 1
Date: 13 May 1998 04:05:01 -0500

At 12:13 AM 5/13/98 -0400, you wrote:
>
>This reminds me: I recently got a Nijiumu (sp?) CD, and was quite taken
>with Keiji Haino's singing. Are there other releases that focus on that,
>rather than his instrumental work?
>

A Challenge to Fate has some interesting vocals on it, although I still
have trouble with the three "Blackness" songs.  Also, try his
collaborations with Peter Brotzmann (Evolving Blush or Driving Original
Sin) and Alan Licht (Gerry Miles).  Also the group Black Stage has some
great vocal stuff in it as well.

Most of his solo stuff and a lot of the Fushitsusha stuff will have a large
amount of vocals, although as you said he tends to have a lot of long
instrumental sections.

For more info on albums and labels check out Dave Keffer's site:

http://www.planetc.com/users/keffer/haino/index.html





-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DR S WILKIE <[e-mail]>
Subject:       Re: "higher than the world norm"
Date: 13 May 1998 10:09:09 GMT0BST

My understanding is that over half the population of the planet have
never made a telephone call.  I call this fact to mind whenever I
hear shit about the internet being the ultimate democratisation of
information ...

Absolutely unrelated, but: has anyone been keeping up with David
Murray's releases in the past few years?  Any comments on, in
particular, the one with Ray Anderson, and the Quartet follow-up to
"Aunt Louise"?

In response to "who are...?": Ayn Rand was a woman who articulated a
kind of crazy individualism, backed up by some extremely ropey
middle-brow philosophical porridge: she was a big influence on Steve
Ditko, leading him to cram the panels of "The Question" and,
even moreso, "Mr.A", with overwordy sermons about theories of
objectivity (Alan Moore's take on this, however, was inspired).

Pete Seeger wrote or popularised some of the finest songs of the 20th
century, tho' personally i favour Woody Guthrie.  Seeger was on the
right side, and was clear about what side he was on (neither of these
things are true of Rand).

Sean Wilkie


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Benjamin Pequet <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [none] but the world is 1
Date: 13 May 1998 12:40:44 +0200

>> He/she reveals a Keiji Haino that I didn't know.
>
>This reminds me: I recently got a Nijiumu (sp?) CD, and was quite taken
>with Keiji Haino's singing. Are there other releases that focus on that,
>rather than his instrumental work?

Other releases that focus on the voice in the way of Nijiumu I don't know.
But there are a lot of Keiji Hainos ! Right now I think of the Andy Haas
thing called Arnhem Land. Also I recently listened to Keiji Haino and Peter
Br=F6tzmann duets.=20
The way I see it, things changed for Keiji Haino at the moment of Tenshi No
Gijinka, where my feeling is that he swallowed his guitar.=20

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Marc Downing <[e-mail]>
Subject: Why Zorn (or anyone else?)
Date: 13 May 1998 09:15:10 -0400

>Like the claim of 'Hype.'  I'll grant that, but it's also a subjective
>measure.  Marc says the Beethoven 9th is hyped, I say it's a great piece
>of music.

I also think the 9th is a great piece of music.

>We can both be right, but to only say it's 'hyped' sounds
>pejorative.

Quite true.  It does sound perjorative.  But nonetheless, it's hyped.

>Somethings can be hyped because they're worth it, other
>things can be hyped when they're not worth it at all.

This is why the question, originally asked by Jeff, is complicated.
Without, I hope (I REALLY hope), rekindling the politics/economics
misunderstanding, I wonder who determines 'worth'.  It's one of those
nebulous terms like "good" and "quality".  These terms only operate
successfully within a very subjective frame of reference, which I suspect
is why we all witnessed an extremely lengthy argument between two people
who couldn't match definitions of key terms.  Maybe 'worth' is an economic
term, maybe it's an artistic one (supposing the two can be separated).
From you, George, I suspect it's an artistic one.

>I realize perhaps what the basic difference between my views and others'
>here is; I try to be as inclusive and open-minded as possible, defer to
>the possibilities of human experience and ideas, while I see many
>reductive, deterministic viewpoints in opposition to that.

I haven't read any reductive or deterministic viewpoints.

Marc



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re:Why Zorn (or anyone else?)
Date: 13 May 1998 14:35:05 UT

<<
This is why the question, originally asked by Jeff, is complicated.
Without, I hope (I REALLY hope), rekindling the politics/economics
misunderstanding, I wonder who determines 'worth'.  It's one of those
nebulous terms like "good" and "quality".  These terms only operate
successfully within a very subjective frame of reference.
>>

I maintain that "worth" is defined solely by the consumer, and I don't mean that
in just an economic sense, but also in an artistic sense.

My childrens' paintings have great worth to me, and virtually none to anyone
else.

This doesn't mean that a subset of people can't get come to some agreement on
what some of their common interests are worth.  For example, there are people
who would gladly pay hundreds of dollars for particular Beanie Babies, which
most of the sentient world thinks is an insane gesture (I hope).  Me, I think
Beanie Babies are worthless, except maybe as an investment.  Thus, the worth of
the object is only what a person confers on it.

Hype has the effect of convincing people affected by it of something's worth.
Most everyone schooled in the Western European tradition agrees that the 9th is
worth something, so for those who agree, it is, but if you hate Beethoven or
symphonies or choral music, or maybe you're some sort of "wild savage" in a
non-western country, it's worthless.

Whereas, the Cynical Hysterie Hour or John Oswald's Plunderphonics are very
important to me (and probably others on the list) and are thus "worth" a great
deal, both artistically and economically, to me, whereas to my wife, they're
mostly noise and are worthless (except, of course, they have worth to her,
because they have worth to me, yada yada yada).

Anyway, that's the way I've been thinking recently.
Which makes the why so difficult.  We all have different why's.

PeterR

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Brent Burton <[e-mail]>
Subject: resoundings?
Date: 13 May 1998 10:52:52 -0400 (EDT)

could someone repost the line-up and dates for this festival in atlanta.
i'd greatly appreciate it.

b

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: George Grella <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Baseball
Date: 13 May 1998 09:14:29 -0800

Ken Waxman writes:

> Sure, if I liked Schuman. But what about you? What if you found out that
> someone you admire, Zorn, let's say, absolutely hated baseball? Would
> that downgrade his music in your estimation?

You don't like Schuman?  Well, you had better get started.

If I found out that a musician absolutely hated baseball, I would see
that as a grave moral/spiritual deficiency, and would try to listen very
hard to hear how their music expressed that personal fault, as well as
to perhaps hear the root cause of the fault.  Were they, as a child, a
Dodger fan who witnessed the Shot Heard Round the World, thereby
embittering them forever?  Are baseball prices too high for them to
attend games, creating seething feelings of victimization by class
warfare and economic injustice?  These are obviously vital
considerations.

gg

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [none] but the world is 1
Date: 13 May 1998 12:32:35 -0400 (EDT)

    Pete Seeger and Ayn Rand were just being used for examples. To
make things very, very simple (and I know people will jump on me for
this), Seeger is a representative of the left wing and Rand a rightist.

Ken Waxman
[e-mail]

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Bruno Bissonnette" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Painkiller live
Date: 13 May 1998 10:52:25 PDT

Hi all Zornophiles,

If you can't make it to the Victo festival, here's some interesting
news: Painkiller will be playing at the Montreal Jazz Festival this
summer, on July 8th.  Tickets are already on sale.  I've got my front
row seats (and earplugs!!) :)  Not in a hundred years did I expect
PAINKILLER to play in Montreal.  I wasn't even sure these guys were
still together!

Also, Cecil Taylor will be doing two nights, one solo and the other trio
(with bass and drums, but I haven't seen any particular names). Pharoah
Sanders also does one night.

On a completely different note, has anyobody heard of the next Blind
Idiot God release, since it's been mentionned here on the list as
possibly being called "Rock" and to be released on Avant on May 19th?
Was that just a rumour?

Finally can anybody recommend the following Peter Brotzmann discs: "The
Dried Rat-Dog" and "Daredevil"?

Thanks
Bruno

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Caleb Deupree)
Subject: Re: Painkiller live
Date: 13 May 1998 14:30:03 -0400

>>>>> "Bruno" == Bruno Bissonnette <[e-mail]> writes:

    Bruno> Finally can anybody recommend the following Peter Brotzmann
    Bruno> discs: "The Dried Rat-Dog" and "Daredevil"?

Yes, I'll recommend Dried Rat-Dog, a duet between Brotzmann and Hamid
Drake on percussions.  Excellent sound, plenty of room for the two of
them to spread out, and lots of interesting details (meaning it's not
a huge blow-fest like Machine Gun or Last Exit, but there are quiet
parts too).

---
Caleb T. Deupree
;; Opinions...  funny thing about opinions, they can change.

Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers.
(Pablo Picasso)


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Al T)
Subject: re: Sharp
Date: 14 May 1998 04:05:10 GMT

quoting George--

Allow me to qualify first; the means of writing a piece are determined
by a composer, the means of making the sound of that music is another
thing.  Our lives to begin with are deeply and irretrievably entangled
in economics, and music is made out of the grist of people's lives.
That entanglement is so intrinsic, however, that it it is no argument at
all to say that all music is economic, it's a tautology.  Might as well
say our lives our deeply entangled in eating and breathing and shitting
and that therefore music is as well.  In fact, that is my personal view;
I know my music is informed by eating and breathing and shitting becuase
I want it to be, I don't want it to be informed by the economics of my
life

end quote

Geez I tried my best to stay out of it but I was thinking in terms of the
breathing analogy myself, so forgive me please...I am weak.

Okay, first, logic cop here: Tautologies, in the sense that you are using the
term here are not meaningless. "Mammals ares mammals" is a meaninglessness
tautology. "Mammals need air" is not. If it is obvious that politics, music, and
economics are deeply entertwined (which you admit) why bother to argue that it
isn't which is how you're coming accross. What's you're stake in denying the
obvious.

Take breathing...you do *not* as you claim get to choose in any absolute sense
whether or not your music is informed by breathing. Do music without breathing
for oh, say, 25 minutes and have your heirs let me know how it comes out.

You can, of course, choose how you want to work with the various aspects of
breathing in your composition...or delegate the breathing stuff to background
and not really worry about it at all...

...provided no one has a boot on your air hose.

The thing that send up red flags for me about the argument that this or that is
somehow outside or above politics is that this argument is generally the first
refuge of folks who do tend to have their boot on somebody's air hose and
pretend that voices of resistence, or of the marginalized, of the suffering, or
of the just plain offbeat are, in fact, simply inferior voices and that their
exclusion is simply a matter of quality control.

I get the sense that you are defending your right to make your music in the
terms it presents itself to you using an argument that, looked at in terms of
historically probabilities, has a greater chance of ending up used against you.

Perhaps it would be expedient to choose to involve yourself in politics just
long enough to get a better argument that does the same job<g>.

I'm reading the digest so apologies if I'm off the beat.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Jeff Schuth" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re:Why Zorn (or anyone else?)
Date: 13 May 1998 18:10:48 PDT




>Anyway, that's the way I've been thinking recently.
>Which makes the why so difficult.  We all have different why's.
>

>
>-
>
>


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Jeff Schuth" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re:Why Zorn (or anyone else?)
Date: 13 May 1998 18:18:50 PDT




>Anyway, that's the way I've been thinking recently.
>Which makes the why so difficult.  We all have different why's.
>

>  Yes, I think you did an excellent job pointing out that everyone has
their own reason to be attracked to a piece.  However, everyone has
different reasons, yet many are attracted to it; there must be one
characteristic that enables this.  In other words, we might all get
something different out of the music, but there are definite factors
that attract us all to the music.
  This all goes back to my original question; how do people listen to
this music?  I think it is the HOW that determines the WHO and WHY of
music.  Your wife may think it is noise, but she listens to it
differently than you.  I love Cynical Hysteria Hour also, but probably
for different reasons.  This is because music, as any art, is dependent
on personal experiences and interpetaion of the viewer.  All of us in
this group are here because we like the music.  Somewhere along the way
we all heard something that your wife didn't in this music.  And that is
the question.  Yes it is a personal question, but it will result in
interesting answers.
>-
>
>


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Christopher Hamilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Content in music
Date: 13 May 1998 21:41:36 -0400 (EDT)



On Wed, 13 May 1998, Eric C. Honour, Jr. wrote:

> I don't agree, though that the sounds do not carry any content at all.
> There are all the (simple or complex) relationships between acoustics,
> rhythm, pacing, and the like which actually exist in the real, physical
> world.

Oh, absolutely.  I just wouldn't call this "content".  It wouldn't be
totally insane to think that the above is all you should consider when
judging a work, just really extreme.

Chris Hamilton


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Christopher Hamilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re:Why Zorn (or anyone else?)
Date: 13 May 1998 22:09:22 -0400 (EDT)



On Wed, 13 May 1998 [e-mail] wrote:

> Most everyone schooled in the Western European tradition agrees that the 9th is
> worth something, so for those who agree, it is, but if you hate Beethoven or
> symphonies or choral music, or maybe you're some sort of "wild savage" in a
> non-western country, it's worthless.

I think this brushes over the fact that our judgements are usually set in
the framework of a loose system of values.  Within the context of such a
system, it's not just down to whether I like something; I can make right
or wrong judgements.  So, if I hate Beethoven (and I do), I may still not
be entitled to say his work is worthless, because, in the context of the
value system I hold, the 9th might really be great stuff, whether I like
it or not.  So it's possible that Peter's just wrong about the value of
Plunderphonics (or that his wife is, or that neither or both are).

     I also don't think it's obvious that people's value systems are all
that different from one another, so real arguments about value are
possible.  Although often not worth the trouble.  (But I daresay any
musician who collaborates with other musicians has them all the time.)

Chris Hamilton


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Silent Watcher" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Tom Cora recommendations needed
Date: 13 May 1998 19:45:40 PDT

Hello all,

Sorry if this has been requested before (I'm sure it has), but some days
I have to pick and choose what emails to read, and this subject wasn't
relevant to me before.  I just got a copy of the first Curlew album, and
am absolutely amazed by Tom Cora's playing.  I've only come into contact
with it before on a few Zorn projects, but definitely none have quite
stood out to me like this one has.  The question is, can someone
recommend some other solid albums that feature Cora as the centerpiece,
or part of the centerpiece of the particular ensemble?  Please respond
privately, unless by some chance this hasn't come up before.  Thanks in
advance.

SW
For Sale/Want List and Bill Laswell discography at
http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Underground/7093

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: James Hale <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Baseball
Date: 13 May 1998 23:27:02 -0500

Ken Waxman wrote:
> Right now, in
> fact, David Murray, DD Jackson, Taj Mahal and, I think, another writer
> are working on a musical based on the Negro League of the 1940s.

It's Murray, Jackson, Taj, Butch Morris and Bob Weir of the Grateful
Dead. The musical is about the life of Satchel Paige.

James Hale



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Scott Handley" <[e-mail]>
Subject: brotzmann / e. parker "news"
Date: 13 May 1998 22:18:56 PDT

The following pertains the upcoming triple-album box by Peter Brotzmann
and the upcoming double solo album by Evan Parker.

I talked to Bruno Johnson of Okkadisk in Chicago this past weekend (I
was visiting Chicago for the Empty Bottle Fest 1998), and it looks like
the fabled three-CD Brotzmann Octet/Tentet box set is scheduled for this
upcoming July.  An awful lot of firepower, and from what I've heard, it
really was a tremendous session w/ zero egotism and a net result
indicative of the vast range of the project (my sources for this
statement include, on different occasions, Mr. Johnson, Peter Brotzmann,
Mats Gustafsson, Joe McPhee, Mars Williams, and Kent Kessler).  Fred
Lonberg-Holm, who is on the first Selfhaters record, is in the Tentet
and contributed one of his "clock" compositions (??) to the session,
though I don't know if it will appear on the release .  There will be
studio and live material.

Also, Okka plans on releasing a double-disc of Evan Parker solos, and
for those of you who were a bit underwhelmed by the Chicago tenor solos
album (I was a bit uninterested myself), or for those who think we DON"T
NEED ANOTHER SOLO ALBUM, I heard the man split time between solo tenor
and solo soprano for an hour in Chicago a week ago, and NO RECORDING
I've heard could have prepared me for the developemnt and intensity he's
currently generating. This album should possibly be expected this year.

Sorry if this seems like an ad (I'm not affiliated w/ Okka in any way),
but I just thought these might be of significant interest to those of
you who have followed or are interested in the careers of these great
musicians.  Thought I'd pass the word best I can.

--s

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Yves Dewulf <[e-mail]>
Subject: zorn goes drum'n'bass II
Date: 14 May 1998 09:39:21 +0200



Zorn goes drum & bass part II,

Bill Laswell samples the piano in the beginning of Duras in the last
track of his new oscillations 2 -album.
(which makes it by far the best track on the album)

YVes

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Stefan Verstraeten <[e-mail]>
Subject: where to get cassiber / ground zero
Date: 14 May 1998 12:21:27 +0200

Dear Zornies,

I know about the discussion on the live cassiber album remixed by ground
zero.
But I have one little question: does anyone know where I can get this
disc??? But since I live in Belgium (Europe), I'd prefer an online
distributor (like forced exposure, DMG, ...) who might have this disc.
You may email me privately in case this is a stupid question i.e. a
question not interesting enough for the discussion list

Thank you very much
--
Stefan Verstraeten

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re[2]:Why Zorn (or anyone else?)
Date: 14 May 1998 12:55:24 UT

<<
I think this brushes over the fact that our judgements are usually set in
the framework of a loose system of values.  Within the context of such a
system, it's not just down to whether I like something; I can make right
or wrong judgements.  So, if I hate Beethoven (and I do), I may still not
be entitled to say his work is worthless, because, in the context of the
value system I hold, the 9th might really be great stuff, whether I like
it or not.  So it's possible that Peter's just wrong about the value of
Plunderphonics (or that his wife is, or that neither or both are).
>>

I can't be wrong about the value of Plunderphonics to me.  That's impossible.  I
know what it's value is to me, and I know what it's value is in comparison to
Beethoven's 9th, to me.  My wife is also not wrong about the worth of
Plunderphonics to her, zero.  We are both correct in judging the value of the
work in our own framework.  That's undebatable.

You are perfectly within your right to say Beethoven's work is worthless to you.
 How could anyone debate that?

Can you debate it was influential in the framework of the entire western musical
historical tradition?  No.  But even then, can anyone say that gives it worth?
Not necessarily.  Fifty years ago, people thought that Christopher Columbus was
a great man, a figure worthy of praise.  Ten years ago, everyone despised him as
the great white oppressor, worthy only of scorn.  Now we're somewhere in
between, a bold guy, but with oppressive ideas.  Whatever.  His "worth" changed
over time, and with public opinion.

So, what I'm saying is, the societal concept of worth only comes from an
aggregate of a lot of individuals' concept of worth, ie: Beethoven's 9th.  Still
worthless to you, but generally accepted as worthy, simply because so many
people agree that it is.  If all the sudden everybody on the planet agreed with
you, it'd be worthless.

<<
I also don't think it's obvious that people's value systems are all
that different from one another, so real arguments about value are
possible.  Although often not worth the trouble.  (But I daresay any
musician who collaborates with other musicians has them all the time.)
>>
Hmm, I bet if we compared our top ten most worthy bands, we'd have very few
common ones.  ARguments are possible, but not worth the trouble, true, because I
know what's good to me and you know what's good to you.  Can't argue with that.
You could argue the relative influence of something on society, or the
interesting things about it, and that might influence how someone perceives that
thing's worth, but that's about it.


Peter

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Marc Downing <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re:Why Zorn (or anyone else?)
Date: 14 May 1998 08:46:46 -0400

>I think it is the HOW that determines the WHO and WHY of
>music.  Your wife may think it is noise, but she listens to it
>differently than you.  I love Cynical Hysteria Hour also, but probably
>for different reasons.  This is because music, as any art, is dependent
>on personal experiences and interpetaion of the viewer.

`...Most compositions lack a specific, agreed-upon reference to the
contents of the world.  But when we bring our own life situations to music,
we can make of music what we will.  Music idealizes emotions negative and
positive alike.  By so doing, it momentarily perfects our individual
emotional lives.  The "meaning" we feel is not in the music as such, but in
our own responses to the world, responses that we carry about with us
always.  Music serves to perfect those responses, to make them beautiful.
By so doing, music imparts dignity to experience that often is far from
dignified.  And by imparting pleasure even to negativbe emotions, music
serves to justify sufferings large and small, assuring us that it has not
all been for nothing.

... It is the force of our own lives that drives musical anticipation, and
our own joys and pains that are rewarded by musical resolutions.'

This is a quote from a book that Mark Saleski recommended to the list on
Tuesday.  Again, it's "Music, the Brain, and Ecstasy" by Robert Jourdain.
Thanks, Mark.  I bought it and so far think it's excellent.

Marc




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Saidel Eric J <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Re[2]:Why Zorn (or anyone else?)
Date: 14 May 1998 08:08:40 -0500 (CDT)

According to [e-mail]:

>
> You are perfectly within your right to say Beethoven's work is worthless to you.
>  How could anyone debate that?

If "worthless to you" means "you don't like it" then no one could debate it.
If "worthless to you" means - as Chris meant it - "without value in a system
that structures your values," then anyone could debate it.

> Can you debate it was influential in the framework of the entire western musical
> historical tradition?  No.  But even then, can anyone say that gives it worth?
> Not necessarily.  Fifty years ago, people thought that Christopher Columbus was
> a great man, a figure worthy of praise.  Ten years ago, everyone despised him as
> the great white oppressor, worthy only of scorn.  Now we're somewhere in
> between, a bold guy, but with oppressive ideas.  Whatever.  His "worth" changed
> over time, and with public opinion.

Hmm.  It sounds like you're contradicting yourself.  The 9th was - as you
point out - influential (of worth) in the framework of the western musical
tradition.  That won't change, even if public opinion changes and we all
agree with Chris that it's not an enjoyable piece of music.

That other Chris (Columbus) didn't have his "worth" change with public
opinion.  What changed (if anything did) was public opinion about his
worth.  Claims, for example, that he's worthy only of scorn are claims
about him and his acts, and they are meant to apply to him timelessly.
This, I think, is important: these are not claims that he is worthy
of scorn today, but won't be tomorrow when "public opinion" changes.
They are claims that he always was and always will be worthy of scorn.
Our recognition of this worthiness may change.  (Compare to claims
that the earth is spherical: the shape of the earth doesn't change
with changing public opinion; the earth has been spherical as long
as there has been public opinion about its shape, and it'll remain
so, despite opinion to the contrary.)

> So, what I'm saying is, the societal concept of worth only comes from an
> aggregate of a lot of individuals' concept of worth, ie: Beethoven's 9th.  Still
> worthless to you, but generally accepted as worthy, simply because so many
> people agree that it is.  If all the sudden everybody on the planet agreed with
> you, it'd be worthless.

Again, no.  The 9th is of value not because so many people agree it is,
but because it is influential in shaping the framework (or whatever
determines something's value).  There is a difference between saying
a work is good and saying "I like it".  That's how many of us are
able to recognize that some works of art are good, even though we
don't like them.  Or the contrary, recognize that a work is bad, even
though we like it (think "guilty pleasure").

- eric



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Caleb Deupree)
Subject: Re: Tom Cora recommendations needed
Date: 14 May 1998 09:12:06 -0400

>>>>> "Silent" == Silent Watcher <[e-mail]> writes:

    Silent> Hello all, Sorry if this has been requested before (I'm
    Silent> sure it has), but some days I have to pick and choose what
    Silent> emails to read, and this subject wasn't relevant to me
    Silent> before.  I just got a copy of the first Curlew album, and
    Silent> am absolutely amazed by Tom Cora's playing.  I've only
    Silent> come into contact with it before on a few Zorn projects,
    Silent> but definitely none have quite stood out to me like this
    Silent> one has.  The question is, can someone recommend some
    Silent> other solid albums that feature Cora as the centerpiece,
    Silent> or part of the centerpiece of the particular ensemble?

The Skeleton Crew albums, just Cora and Fred Frith, are an excellent
starting point.  I think there were two albums, most of which have
been released together on one CD.

---
Caleb T. Deupree
;; Opinions...  funny thing about opinions, they can change.

Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers.
(Pablo Picasso)


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Gary Lucas Radio Broadcast
Date: 14 May 1998 10:02:56 -0500


     NYC area z-listers might be interested to tune in to WNYC's New Sounds
     program this evening at 11:00 PM (93.9). Gary Lucas will be performing
     what he described as "a blistering set" of pieces from 'Busy Being
     Born' (recorded a couple of days ago).

     Brian Olewnick



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Stephane Vuilleumier" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fw: Tom Cora recommendations needed
Date: 14 May 1998 16:14:36 +0200

The mention of Skeleton Crew prompts me to add that the CD reissue
(lacking 2 rather anecdotic tracks) is apparently also out of print.
There is a really interesting recent collection of samples by Fred Frith
and Tom Cora (from the not-yet-quite-ready current versions of
Tom's and Fred's discographies) called ETYMOLOGY: 95 tracks of 1-12 samples
each (with individual names!), meant for use in sound design I guess.
In the case of Tom's solo tracks, painfully/beautifully recognizable,
pure Tom Cora cello sound.

There is a website to check this out (beware: the CD's not cheap)
http://www.rarefaction.com
it also has a short biography of Cora and Frith.

Stephane



107 - ETYMOLOGY: Fred Frith, Tom Cora, Skeleton Crew

    Recorded at the Koeinverhuurbdrijf Studio, Purmerland (Netherlands)
    during Fall 1995

    Produced by Tom Dimuzio

  Fred Frith (1-54): guitar, electromagnetic translations; Tom Cora (37-95):
  cello, cello resonated objects.

    1997 - Rarefaction (USA), RF13 (CD)
    1997 - Rarefaction (USA), RF12 (CD-ROM)



Calob Deupree suggested (server crashed, message gone):

> the two Skeleton Crew albums


>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Silent Watcher <[e-mail]>
>>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>>Date: Thursday, 14. Mai 1998 04:48
>>Subject: Tom Cora recommendations needed
>>
>>can someone
>>recommend some other solid albums that feature Cora as the centerpiece,
>>or part of the centerpiece of the particular ensemble?




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rich Williams <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Tom Cora recommendations needed
Date: 14 May 1998 10:12:44 -0500

Silent Watcher wrote:
 I just got a copy of the first Curlew album, and
> am absolutely amazed by Tom Cora's playing.  I've only come into contact
> with it before on a few Zorn projects, but definitely none have quite
> stood out to me like this one has.  The question is, can someone
> recommend some other solid albums that feature Cora as the centerpiece,
> or part of the centerpiece of the particular ensemble?


Dave,

    That Curlew LP is great, One of my fave Laswell-related albums. Another
great record with Tom Cora is Nimal's  "Voix De Surface" on the French
AYAA label. This features Tom, and Pipin Barnett with former members of
Begnegrad and Debile Menthol.The music is not unlike Fred Frith's
Gravity LP, which is to say, Its Great.
    Ive also heard good things about "Roof", Cora's last working band. And
of course lets not forget Skeleton Crew, although their albums never
approached their live performances. But the best way to experience Toms
unique playing has got to be the Curlew Video "The Hardwood" available
from Wayside.

Rich

PS There is a tune from the Nimal CD on my web page
(though I mis-credited it to another CD, Doh!)

www.geocities.com/~punkjazz

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Francisca" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Selling a couple of cds
Date: 14 May 1998 12:53:39 -0400


Contact me if interested.
Sorry for taking up bandwidth.

---------------
Francisca
[e-mail]

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Christopher Hamilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Tom Cora recommendations needed
Date: 14 May 1998 19:47:08 -0400 (EDT)



In addition to the Skeleton Crew and Curlew albums, I highly recommend the
two collaborations with the Ex, _Scrabbling at the Lock_ and _...And the
Weathermen Shrug Their Shoulders_.  Cora's cello fits surprisingly
naturally into a basically punk-rock contexts.  Some nice use of Eastern
European/Middle Eastern influences as well.  Live, this combination was
one of the best bands I've ever seen, and it's a shame their or no concert
performances available.

Chris Hamilton



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Christopher Hamilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Re[2]:Why Zorn (or anyone else?)
Date: 14 May 1998 20:03:01 -0400 (EDT)



On Thu, 14 May 1998 [e-mail] wrote:

> We are both correct in judging the value of the
> work in our own framework.

You (or anyone) might be confused about the way your own framework works.
Perhaps an analogy with morality will make my point clearer.  At least
some 18th-century Americans presumably bought into the moral framework
of the Declaration of Independence (all men created equal, etc.), believed
that Africans were human beings, and thought that slavery was morally
acceptable.  By their own standards, they were wrong about the last point.
Similarly, one might buy into a system of artistic values but make
mistakes in judging particular works of music within that context.

> You could argue the relative influence of something on society, or the
> interesting things about it, and that might influence how someone perceives that
> thing's worth, but that's about it.

For example, you might think that works of music with many interesting
qualities are necessarily good.  (I'm pretty sure I think something like
this.)  If your wife buys into this view, and you convince her that
Plunderphonics has many interesting qualities, she'd have to admit that
she's wrong.  (But I don't recommend having that sort of discussion
too often with spouses 8^).)

I should note that, given that you admit you could argue that something is
interesting for such-and-such a reason, we may just be using words
differently, since that sounds an awful lot like arguing that something
has value to me.

Chris Hamilton


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tag Yr It <[e-mail]>
Subject: Ground Zero Plays Standards
Date: 14 May 1998 20:34:40 EDT

Greetings list people,

Can someone give me an idea why I can't find a place that can order this? None
of the shops I've asked seem to have a clue about where to get it.

Thanks for any help.

Dale.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dan Kuehn <[e-mail]>
Subject: Live Knit
Date: 14 May 1998 15:03:37 +0000

Somebody tell me what's with the livecam at the Knitting Factory - ever since
John Zorn had it turned off, it REALLY got turned off.  I check almost every
day and I've gotten various realaudio messages (the site doesn't exist, is not
available, etc.) or an NBC network feed or a blue screen or a black screen or
once very, breifly, picture but no sound.

What gives? Politics?  Technical problems?  Legal beef?  Artist beef?

The livecam is certainly revolutionary, giving us free-thinking folks in the
outback a window into a world of new musiks formerly available only to those
able to bear life in the City, but isn't that a good thing?

I just hope it's not gone forever.  I expected that bastard Zorn would turn it
off for his precious improv nite tonite, but what about the clusone trio last
night?  Never heard'em, probably never will...

I for one have bought at least a dozen albums based on what i've caught on
that miserable little screen -

At this point I don't even know what's wrong:  kid has ice cream cone, kid
loses ice cream cone, kid feels bad.

As Nancy Kerrigan said so well, "Why, why?"

Dan

--
Dan Kuehn
resident manager
Kailua Maui Gardens
http://www.maui.net/~kmg/

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: SUGAR in their vitamins? <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Ground Zero Plays Standards
Date: 14 May 1998 20:27:14 -0700 (PDT)


On Thu, 14 May 1998, Tag Yr It wrote:

> Can someone give me an idea why I can't find a place that can order this? None
> of the shops I've asked seem to have a clue about where to get it.

Forced Exposure has copies.

www.forcedexposure.com

hasta.

Yes.  Beautiful, wonderful nature.  Hear it sing to us: *snap*  Yes.  natURE.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re[2]: Re[2]:Why Zorn (or anyone else?)
Date: 15 May 1998 13:53:57 UT

<<
I should note that, given that you admit you could argue that something is
interesting for such-and-such a reason, we may just be using words
differently, since that sounds an awful lot like arguing that something
has value to me.

Chris Hamilton
>>

Which is, I think, the key.  You feel that something needs to be interesting to
have value.  I find most of Vivaldi completely UNinteresting, but apparently,
the western doctrinal system feels that it has plenty of value.  I dunno.  It
may have some historical significance, but frankly, I'd have to say his music is
pretty worthless, right up there with Kenny G, Yanni and that pan-flute guy.

Similarly, eric wrote:
<<
Hmm.  It sounds like you're contradicting yourself.  The 9th was - as you
point out - influential (of worth) in the framework of the western musical
tradition.  That won't change, even if public opinion changes and we all
agree with Chris that it's not an enjoyable piece of music.
>>

Right there, he defines anything influential as having worth or value.  I don't
know that this is necessarily true.  I personally agree, but there are lots of
things that were influential, like tonal serialism, that the vast majority would
find completely worthless, in fact, being negatively influential, leading the
music establishment away from "pretty music" and into the no man's land of
twentieth century classical.  I think we'd all disagree and try to argue for the
movement's worth.

Also, I really feel like we're coming at this from a completely Western point of
view.  I don't know enough about the differing cultures from East to West,
except to say that there's the classic story of the missionaries who played
Handel (another worthless composer, in my estimation) to the "savages" in Bali,
who laughed their heads off over such unsophisiticated children's music.
Meanwhile, the music of Bali is almost completely uninfluential in our Western
society and I'd say most people would find it pretty uninteresting and maybe
even annoying.  So, is it worthless then, because the majority of Americans
would agree that it sucks?

Certainly, it's not worthless to the people of Bali.

So, yeah, your culture can fit you with a certain set of value judgements for
music, which you can choose to accept, alter or deny.  You're not completely
divorced from your culture.  But don't mistake cultural judgements for absolute
truths.

PeterR

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tom Benton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Masada at Slim's in SF
Date: 15 May 1998 18:19:44 -0500 (CDT)

To those of you who were curious about the upcoming Bay Area Masada show
(on the 30th I think), the band is going to be: Zorn, Ben Goldberg
(clarinet), John Schott (guitar), John Shifflett (bass), and Scott
Amendola (drums).

Sounds like nothing short of a total blast...


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: David Newgarden <[e-mail]>
Subject: New Music Series (New York City)
Date: 15 May 1998 22:48:25 -0400 (EDT)


The New Music Series at Tonic
Curated by John Zorn

JUNE
Wed 24 @11pm Opening Night Improv Party w/Zorn & many special guests FREE
Thu 25 Dave Douglas $10
Fri 26 Josh Roseman $8
Sat 27 Mike Patton $15
Sun 28 Derek Bailey & Suzie Ibarra $10

JULY
Wed 1 Masada String Trio $10
Thu 2 Butch Morris $10
Fri 3 Arto Lindsay $10
Sat 4 Medeski, Martin & Wood $10
Sun 5 Zorn, Ribot, Medeski & Wollesen $10
Wed 8 Vernon Reid $10
Thu 9 Painkiller / Ikue Mori solo $15
Fri 10 Marc Ribot y los Cubanos Postisos $10
Sat 11 Previte / Sharp / Zorn $10
Sun 12 David Krakauer's Klezmer Madness $10
Wed 15 EasSide Percussion $6
Thu 16 Charles Gayle $10
Fri 17 Joe Lovano $10
Sat 18 Anthony Coleman's Sephardic Tinge $8
Sun 19 Myra Melford & Crush $8
Wed 22 Zeena Parkins $6
Thu 23 Spanish Fly $8
Fri 24 Ravi Coltrane $10
Sat 25 Min Xiao-Fen $8
Sun 26 William Parker $10
Wed 29 Erik Friedlander's Chimera $8
Thu 30 Alicia Svigals $8
Fri 31 Joey Baron & Baron Down $10

August
Sat 1 Roy Campbell's Other Dimensions $8
Sun 2 Chris Speed & Pachora $6
Wed 5 Eyvind Kang $10
Thu 6 Tim Berne $10
Fri 7 Cyro Baptista's Beat the Donkey $10
Sat 8 Liminal Lounge with Perowsky, Blume and guests $6
Sun 9 Mark Feldman $8
Wed 12 John Zorn's COBRA $10
Thu 13 Frank London $8
Fri 14 Mark Helias $10
Sat 15 Guy Klucevsek $8
Sun 16 Rashied Ali, Louis Belogenis & Wilber Morris $10

All Shows at 9 & 10:30

Every Friday at Midnight - Sex Mob
Every Saturday at Midnight - The Wollesens
except Jun 27 at midnight Erik Friedlander's Topaz

Tonic is at 107 Norfolk between Rivington and Delancey ( F or J train )
phone [phone]

Tonic also has an already-in-progress free Wednesday night music series,
curated by Ted Reichman (accordionist with David Krakauer's Klezmer
Madness, Braxton/Reichman Duo, Refuseniks, Eugene Chadbourne, Eszter
Balint etc.).

5/20 Cuong Vu
Jim Black-percussion, Holly Palmer-voice, Brad Shepik-guitar,
Stomu Takeishi-electric bass, Cuong Vu-trumpet

5/26 Sideshow (Songs of Charles Ives)
Adam Good-guitar, John Hollenbeck-percussion, Matt Moran-vibraphone,
Oscar Noriega-winds

6/3 Soultronix
Christine Bard-percussion & electronics, Chris Cochrane-guitar,
Michael Evans-percussion & theremin, Kato Hideki-electric bass,
Karen Mantler-organ, Jim Pugliese-percussion & electronics

6/10 Irena Jarosjewski
Laura Cromwell-drums, Curtis Hasselbring-guitar & trombone, Irena
Jarosjewski-voice, Ted Reichman-accordion, bass,organ

6/17 John Hollenbeck's Claudia Quintet
Drew Gress-bass, John Hollenbeck-percussion, Matt Moran-vibes,
Ted Reichman-accordion, Chris Speed-winds

6/24 Peter Epstein Quartet
Chris Dahlgren-bass, Peter Epstein-winds, Jamie Saft-keyboards,
Mike Sarin-percussion






-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: David Newgarden <[e-mail]>
Subject: haino / mazzacane connors
Date: 15 May 1998 23:19:06 -0400 (EDT)


>> 2. I'm listening to a to me enigmatic volume 2 of Keiji Haino/Loren
>> MazzaCane Connors cd. There is no comment or anything on the cover or
>> the disc. I didn't see a volume 1 yet but I'm sure soon. But I suspect
>> there could be no more comment on it.

>It's hard to find information about him.  I get the impression that
>there is no "Volume 1" as such, but there is an album documenting an
>earlier performance of Haino with Connors.

The earlier performance (1992) wasn't called "Vol. 1" and was on a
different label (Father Yod/persona non grata). It's  more-or-less sold
out (2 pressings) but I have a few CDs which I'll gladly sell cheap ($8,
sorry for the advertisement) -- I wrote liner note comments... Email me
privately.



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: David Newgarden <[e-mail]>
Subject: New Music Series (advert)
Date: 15 May 1998 23:25:32 -0400 (EDT)

Zorn is curating a New Music Series at Tonic (Lower East side / NYC) June
24-August 16. The schedule is too long for posting here - email
[e-mail], or look for flier at the usual places (Downtown Music
Gallery, Other Music, etc.)



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Matthew Colonnese)
Subject: FITV
Date: 14 May 1998 11:39:16 -0400 (EDT)

>>News Release                                      Michael Ehlers
>>For Immediate Release                             P.O. Box 812
>>May 16, 1998                                      Northampton, MA  01061
>>                                                  [e-mail]
>>
>>
>>
>>Announcing: FIRE IN THE VALLEY '98
>>
>>SATURDAY, JULY 25, 1:00PM-11:00PM, IN TWO PROGRAMS WITH A TWO HOUR BREAK
>>BEZANSON RECITAL HALL AT THE FINE ARTS BUILDING
>>UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS, AMHERST
>>[phone] OR (800)999-UMAS FOR ADVANCE TICKETS
>>
>>PETER BROTZMANN'S DIE LIKE A DOG QUARTET
>>THE JOE MCPHEE WIND AND STRING ENSEMBLE
>>PAUL FLAHERTY/RANDALL COLBOURNE DUO
>>JEMEEL MOONDOC/WILLIAM PARKER DUO
>>THE GLENN SPEARMAN TRIO
>>
>>  On Saturday, July 25, 1998, the Conway New Music Society, consisting
>>of Eremite Inc., Dynamite Records, Toonerville Trolley Records, & the
>>Ecstatic Yod Collective, will present a third massive, day-long festival
>>of jazz and new music at the Bezanson Auditorium in the Fine Arts Center
>>at the University of Massachusetts, Amherst.
>>  Beginning at 1:00 PM, Fire in the Valley '98 will attempt to briefly
>>contain the talents of an incendiary group of musicians whose roots
>>crisscross the avant garde tradition. The setting for this beautiful
>>madness
>>will be the intimate 220 seat Bezanson Auditorium, a room whose
>>audience-stroking acoustics have been documented on several Eremite
>>Records releases.
>>  The afternoon program will start right where Fire in the Valley '97
>>ended-- with the rich blare of tenor saxophonist Glenn Spearman.  1998
>>will be the third overall Festival appearance, the second as a leader,
>>by this huge-toned Bay Area power-hitter. Pianist Matthew Goodheart and
>>drummer Rashid Bakr will comprise Mr. Spearman's trio.  Goodheart is a
>>young San Francisco-based hammerman who has worked with Leo Smith,
>>Pauline Oliveros, & Marco Eneidi, among others.  Bakr drove the Cecil
>>Taylor Unit for a number of fine seasons, & recently played through the
>>Valley as a member of Other Dimensions in Music.
>>This combo should start the proceedings on an extremely high note.
>>  The afternoon program will continue with the Jemeel Moondoc/William
>>Parker Duo. Altoist Moondoc and bassist Parker have been frequent guests
>>at Festivals and Meeting House performances prior to this, but Fire in
>>the Valley '98 will be the first local event that pairs their unique
>>talents. Since the 1970s both Mr. Moondoc and Mr. Parker have been
>>creative centers of the New York loft scene, leading various small
>>groups, orchestras and recombinations-thereof through various paces of
>>human
>>emotion and expansion. Although the pair worked together closely through
>>much of the second New York loft era & into the '80s, this show will be
>>their first reunion in many years. It is guaranteed to remove your soul
>>from your body and take it somewhere nice.
>>  The afternoon program will be capped by a duo performance between
>>saxophonist Paul Flaherty and drummer Randall Colbourne.  Mr. Flaherty
>>and Mr. Colbourne's roots as THE champion exponents of HARDCORE free
>>music in New England can be traced back well over two decades, & seeing
>>them play is one of the great benefits of living here.  Their most
>>recent release, Resonance (Zaabway), recorded at the Meeting House last
>>year, gives a pretty good indication of their musical direction.
>>High-level, high-intensity bursts into the infinity of music, with heart
>>enough for a whale.
>>  After a two hour intermission, the evening program will begin with the
>>Joe
>>McPhee Wind and String Ensemble. Multi-instrumentalist McPhee is one of
>>the great outsider lions of the new music. For three decades he has been
>>recording and performing work of exquisitely high emotional and
>>intellectual content.  His solo appearance at the Meeting House earlier
>>this year set the torch to many heads, and we are certain that Mr.
>>McPhee's set this evening will be another wonder of invention. Joining
>>McPhee will be cellist Monica Wilson, reedplayer/flautist Joe Giardullo,
>>and violinist Rosie Hertlein.
>>  The evening program concludes with the killers, German reed colossus
>>Peter Brotzmann's collective improvisational meditation on Albert Ayler,
>>Die Like A Dog. For this occasion Die Like A Dog will consist of
>>trumpeter Roy Campbell (Other Dimensions in Music), bassist William
>>Parker, and the absolutely slamming Chicago-based drummer, Hamid Drake.
>>These men are all veterans of many avant garde campaigns, but recent
>>shows (both locally and afield) have shown that none of them have come
>>anywhere near cresting.  Each of them is constantly exploring other
>>planes of now.  Together they will move things to A WHOLE NEW LEVEL.
>>  As we have pointed out before, it will be a long time (at least
>>another year) before the area witnesses another such collection of
>>talent. And
>>it is certain that this is a show you will never want to explain having
>>missed.
>>  Tickets for the day are $18 in advance, $20 at the door. They may be
>>charged by calling the UMASS box office (monday-to-friday 10-4) at
>>800-999-UMASS, or purchased at For The Record in Amherst.



------
"Finally, a thing-a-ma-giggy that would bring people together...even if it
kept them apart, spatially."






-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dan Kuehn <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Why, why?
Date: 15 May 1998 23:03:48 +0000

I sent a copy of the mail I posted here concerning trouble with the knitfact
webcam to steve gratzer who forwarded it to... well, here:

Hi Dan,

Steve forwarded your email to me.
>What gives? Politics?  Technical problems?  Legal beef?  Artist beef?
Yes. They all give. Essentially we're trying to work out a whole host of
unexpected problems at the same time. I hope to have this all dealt with in
2 weeks.

Thanks,

Dave

>Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 15:09:25 +0000
>From: Dan Kuehn <[e-mail]>
>Reply-To: [e-mail]
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Why, why?
>X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
>
>Hey, Steve,
>
>Can you tell me what's with the livecam at the Knitting Factory - ever since
>John Zorn had it turned off, it REALLY got turned off.  I check almost every
>day and I've gotten various realaudio messages (the site doesn't exist, is not
>available, etc.) or an NBC network feed or a blue screen or a black screen or
>once very, breifly, picture but no sound.
>
>What gives? Politics?  Technical problems?  Legal beef?  Artist beef?
>
>The livecam is certainly revolutionary, giving us free-thinking folks in the
>outback a window into a world of new musiks formerly available only to those
>able to bear life in the City, but isn't that a good thing?
>
>I just hope it's not gone forever.  I expected that bastard Zorn would turn it
>off for his precious improv nite tonite, but what about the clusone trio last
>night?  Never heard'em, probably never will...
>
>I for one have bought at least a dozen albums based on what i've caught on
>that miserable little screen -
>
>At this point I don't even know what's wrong:
>Kid has ice cream cone, kid loses ice cream cone, kid feels bad.
>
>As Nancy Kerrigan said so well, "Why, why?"
>
>Dan

Dave Brenner
CTO, KnitMedia
74 Leonard Street
New York, NY 10013
http://www.knittingfactory.com
http://www.tzadik.com
http://www.jewmu.com

--
Dan Kuehn
resident manager
Kailua Maui Gardens
SR1, Box 9
Haiku
Maui
Hawaii 96708
http://www.maui.net/~kmg/

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Jamie F Graves)
Subject: Re: Why Zorn?
Date: 16 May 1998 10:49:10 -0400

>For example, you might think that works of music with many interesting
>qualities are necessarily good.  (I'm pretty sure I think something like
>this.)  If your wife buys into this view, and you convince her that
>Plunderphonics has many interesting qualities, she'd have to admit that
>she's wrong.  (But I don't recommend having that sort of discussion
>too often with spouses 8^).)

Hmm, I think you've hit the nail on the head here. It seems to me that
admitting something is interesting in music does not necessarily mean
someone will like it. From what I've read on this list, people here
listen to Zorn and other experimental artists because they're
interesting. Yanni devotees won't disagree with us on that, but they'll
still listen to Yanni over Zorn because it goes down easier, and its a
pleasure for them to listen to (same with easy listening). I have a few
friends whose ideal music fits a very rigid definition, and while I've
gotten a few to admit that Masada and Naked City are "interesting", they
have never asked to borrow the CD's again. Just because someone realizes
something is original doesn't mean they'll start listening to it on a
regular basis, that is usually reserved for their four or five favorite
CD's that they've been listening to forever. Nothing wrong with that,
just a view of listening to music as a pure pleasure experience rather
than an intellectual/pleasure one. At least that's why I listen to Zorn.

Jamie

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Alan E Kayser <[e-mail]>
Subject: gerry hemingway
Date: 17 May 1998 11:26:42 -0400

The Gerry Hemingway Quartet, featuring Gerry, Ellery Eskelin, Mark
Dresser, and Herb Robertson, will be performing in Philadelphia on
Friday, May 22.  This will take place at the Unitarian Church on
Chestnut St between 21st and 22nd at 7:30 PM.  For more details

http://www.erols.com/aek1







-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Brian Olewnick <[e-mail]>
Subject: Dutch Music recommendations sought
Date: 17 May 1998 11:40:19 -0400

Just finished Kevin Whitehead's book, 'New Dutch Swing'. If you're at
all interested in Dutch (and other European) new music developments over
the last 40 years it's well worth checking out--very comprehensive with,
if anything, an overabundance of detail and many interesting oral
histories (I ordered it from Amazon.com). Refreshingly, Whitehead is
pretty critical of a lot of the people he writes about; in fact, finding
musicians or records he's unabashedly enthusiastic about is difficult.

In any case, though I've heard much of the music of some of the
(relatively) major figures he writes of (Breuker, Mengelberg, Bennink)
and bits and pieces of others, Whitehead does provoke a lot of interest
in other, less documented musicians. So, if anyone out there can
recommend recordings by any of the following folk or groups, I'd be much
obliged: Maarten Altena (I've heard some of the Hat Art stuff from the
late 80's), Available Jelly, Ab Baars, Peter van Bergen, Michael Braam,
Guus Janssen, Paul Termos and Wolter Wierbos.

Thanks,

Brian Olewnick

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Mark Stott)
Subject: ZORN in Australia?
Date: 18 May 1998 01:48:25 +1000

Is there any substance to the rumour of Zorn coming to do shows in OZ?

The embellished version includes PRAXIS as support, playing at The Sydney
Opera House (?!).

Any news at all please reply, cheers!

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Caleb Deupree)
Subject: Re: Dutch Music recommendations sought
Date: 17 May 1998 13:43:43 -0400

At 11:40 AM 5/17/98 -0400, Brian Olewnick wrote:

>[...] Peter van Bergen [...]

I have a very strange album by Loos, a quintet headed by van Bergen and
also featuring Huib Emmer and Patricio Wang on electric guitar, Gerard
Bouwhuis on piano, and Paul Koek on percussion, for which van Bergen wrote
most of the music (_Fundamental_ on GeestGronden 10, probably still
available from Cadence).  Extremely abstract and pointillistic, an exercise
in chords, silence, and improvisation.  The CD comes with extensive and
very technical liner notes.  I like van Bergen's playing a lot, he gets a
lot of strange growls and interesting noises from the sax and clarinets,
but the pointillism is unique.

I've heard van Bergen in other contexts, where he makes a distinctive
contribution.  He's a member of Altena's octet on at least a couple of the
Hat disks, and I think he's on the FMP King Ubu orchestra cd as well.



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tom Pratt <[e-mail]>
Subject: looking for...
Date: 17 May 1998 15:07:30 -0400

Hey! I'm trying to locate copies of two CD's that I'm having an
absolutely impossible time finding. They are 'Impropositions' by Mats
Gustafsson (1996 - Phono Suecia, PSCD 99) and 'Live At Fasching' by Gush
(1996 - Dragon, DRCD 313). North Country doesn't have them and neither
does Allegro (whom I believe carries both these labels?). They aren't at
Forced Exposure or Wayside either.

If anybody knows how I can find these titles (at a decent price) or if
you see either in stock at your local stores and would be willing to
pick them up for me (obviously I'd give you the money!), please let me
know. Thanks!

                -Tom Pratt

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Dutch Music recommendations sought
Date: 17 May 1998 18:11:11 -0400

Brian Olewnick wrote:

> ...Wolter Wierbos.

Wolter is heard to great effect on the Gerry Hemingway discs "Special
Detail," "Down to the Wire," "Demon Chaser," and "The Marmalade King," all
on hat Art, as well as "Slamadam" and "Perfect World" on Random Acoustics.
These might actually *all* be out of print officially speaking, but they
still turn up here and there, and Gerry's got "Maramalade King" and the two
Random Acoustics for sale on his website, which is at
http://www.interactive.net/~gerryhem/

I like the Random Acoustics best, "Perfect World" most of all, but they're
all pretty fine.  Thanks for the book review.

Steve Smith
[e-mail]


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: New Zornian Releases for May and June [long]
Date: 17 May 1998 03:43:54 -0400

Hey kids:

While I'm still reeling over that incredible list of gigs coming up at
Tonic (talk about back to the good old days at 47 E. Houston!
Bailey/Ibarra... yum!), I paid a visit to my *other* "old office" today,
that being Koch.  Here's the for-real skinny on Avant, Tzadik and other
Zorn-related releases coming on May 19 and June 16.  Get yer wallets
ready, it's a gob and a half:  All copy that follows is transcribed from
Koch release books except where clearly noted.

MAY 19, 1998

TZADIK

Selfhaters: The Abysmal Richness of the Infinite Proximity of the Same
TZA CD 7123
Radical Jewish Culture
Anthony Coleman, Michael Attias, Fred Lonberg-Holm, Jim Pugliese, Doug
Wieselman

Jazz, classical, Klezmer and improvisational traditions blend and crash
in Selfhaters, Anthony Coleman's most personal project.  A disturbing
and all-too-close peek into the very Jewish world of alienation and
self-revulsion.  Two long masterful compositions separated by a strange
solo piece for voice and piano, The Abysmal Richness of the Infinite
Proximity of the Same is one of Anthony's greatest creations.  A CD that
will vex you to the crack of doom.

Tetsu Inoue: Psycho-Acoustic
TZA CD 7213
New Japan

Perhaps the most interesting electronic music since the classic period
of Stockhausen and Xenakis, Tetsu Inoue is a composer and sound artist
who has worked in a variety of musics - ambient, sound installation,
dance music, techno and is a frequent collaborator of Bill Laswell and
Haruomi Hosono.  This CD features some of the most intricate and
fascinating computer generated compositions you've ever heard.
Literally thousands of hours went into the ceration of these miniature
masterpieces charting a world of sound as yet unexplored.  Also included
is a powerful duet with brilliant electronic percussionist Ikue Mori.

Merzbow: 1930
TZA CD 7214
New Japan

The Japanese Noise scene has received much attention in the past several
years, and countless bands have flooded the market with CDs filled with
horrible sounds and indiscriminate noise.  "Merzbow" is the one and only
original Japanese noise band, begun by Masami Akita over 20 years ago
and he is still the best of them all.  This special release for the
Tzadik label is one of his most important compositional creations - an
adventurous travelogue into his world of analog and digital noises,
taking unexpected twists and turns that will surprise even hardcore
Merzbow fans.  Merzbow is the undisputed king of the Japanese noise
scene and 1930 is one of his very finest releases.

DIW

Rereleases of Dougie Bowne's "One Way Elevator" and Masada 8.

AVANT

Rereleases of G-d Is My Co-Pilot's "Mir Shlufn Nisht," Bobby Previte's
"Slay the Suitors," Blind Idiot God's "Cyclotron" and James Plotkin's
"The Joy of Disease."

OTHER RELEASES OF INTEREST

Joe Morris/Ken Vandermark/Hans Poppel: Like Rays (Knitting Factory)
Microscopic Septet: Take the Z Train (Koch Jazz, reissue)
Howard Skempton: Surface Tension (Mode)


JUNE 16, 1998

DIW

Dave Douglas: Moving Portrait
DIW CD 934
Dave Douglas, Bill Carrothers (piano), James Genus (bass), Billy Hart
(drums)

Following his homages to Booker Little and Wayne Shorter, Moving
Portrait is Dave's tribute to an important and brilliant influence, Joni
Mitchell.  This beautiful quartet plays three of Joni's tunes - "Roses
Blue" (from Clouds), "My Old Man" (from Blue) and "The Same Situation"
(from Court and Spark), along with Douglas originals dedicated to Joni
and the lasting influence of his parents.  This is a truly thoughtful
and moving recording. [Steve's note: I'm listening to this as I type and
agree completely with the Koch copy writer - it's Dave's most
conventional record to date but it's also a simply gorgeous jazz record,
which in a more just world would be moving 6000 units a week just like
the new Wynton Marsalis disc...]

AVANT

Derek Bailey & Min Xiao-Fen: Viper
AVA CD 050

Derek Bailey, one of the founding fathers of the European improvising
scene and Min Xiao-Fen, one of China's greatest pipa (Chinese lute)
virtuosos met for the first time in front of these sensitive microphones
to record this document of free improvisation at its best and most
adventurous.  Over the past 35 years, Bailey has been one of the most
highly influential innovators in music, with dozens of albums
demonstrating his highly influential improvisational style and guitar
technique.  The young Min Xiao-Fen has recorded two stunningly beautiful
albums of traditional and modern works for pipa and was featured on John
Zorn's Filmworks 8.  Two of the world's most exciting string players
cross boundaries head-to-head in creating a musical meeting of East and
West unlike anything you've ever heard before.

David Weinstein: Perfume
AVA CD 020

David Weinstein is a composer who uses electronic and recording
technology to fashion improbable orchestral and musical juxtapositions.
Utilizing rigorous compositional techniques and hackneyed Hollywood
tricks as well as the experimental process, Weinstein composes with an
appreciation of the divine in the pedestrian.  As a composer /
keyboardist Weinstein has recorded and performed in collaboration with
the singer / composer Shelley Hirsch, in Elliott Sharp's Carbon, with
John Zorn, and a variety of other composer / musicians from Arto Lindsay
to Zeena Parkins.  Five years in the making, Weinstein's first solo CD
Perfume charts a dyslexic and exotic path through microtonal scales
towards the world of "just intonation."

Rerelease of John Oswald's "Plexure"

TZADIK

Fred Frith: Pacifica (1993-95)
TZA CD 7034
Composers Series

Pacifica is a major new composition by the world-famous guitarist,
improviser and composer Fred Frith.  Over an hour in length and composed
for a large ensemble of winds, strings and percussion, Pacifica sets the
poetry of Pablo Neruda into a seductive and hypnotizing sound world that
slowly metamorphoses into something altogether different.  Lyrical
written passages, inspired improvisations, sensual vocals and
provocative sound effects all come together into a fascinating whole -
one of Fred Frith's most brilliant orchestral creations.

Norman Yamada: Being and Time
TZA CD 7035
Composers Series

Norman Yamada is a brilliant young composer who has worked with Anthony
Coleman, Marc Ribot, the Crosstown Ensemble, the Agon Orchestra and was
previously heard on the Avant CD by Rough Assemblage.  Being and Time,
the first CD dedicated to his compositions for small ensembles, is an
atavistic exploration of rock gestures, ambient noise and today's
post-modern malaise.  A unique compositional statement from a new
generation of genre-busting musical thinkers.

Ruins: Symphonica
TZA CD 7215
New Japan
Yoshida Tatsuya, Sasaki Hisashi, Oguchi Kenichi, Emi Eleonora, Kubota
Aki

For more than a decade, the Ruins have been one of the most consistently
exciting groups out of the Japanese underground.  Known worldwide for
their complex multi-layered compositions and dynamic live performances,
the Ruins' groundbreaking music starts and stops on a dime, with the
precision of a watch and the power of a sledgehammer.  Symphonica is a
new direction for this innovative band, which until now has worked
solely as a duo.  Augmenting their core unit of drums and bass with two
female vocalists and a keyboard player of astonishing virtuosity, these
brilliant orchestral arrangements of new compositions and Ruins classics
display aspects of their music that have been waiting to emerge for
years.

Phillip Johnston: Music for Films
TZA CD 7510
Film Music

Phillip Johnston has been charming and perplexing audiences for over
twenty years with his lyrical music and ascetic wit.  The mastermind
behind such bands as the Microscopic Septet and the Transparent Quartet,
Phillip has spent much of the past five years composing music for
films.  From silent classics by George M'lies and Tod Browning's The
Unknown, to award-winning contmeporary features like Music of Chance,
Phillip's film music shows him to be a brilliant tunesmith and creative
arranger with a sophisticated sense of the dramatic.  Music for Films
compiles Phillip's finest soundtrack work on one disc.  A surprising and
marvelous compendium of the best of one of jazz's quirkiest and most
delightful composers.

OTHER LABELS

Zorn, Previte, Sharp, Horvitz: Downtown Lullaby (Depth of Field)
The Lounge Lizards: Queen of All Ears (Strange and Beautiful)
John Lurie: Fishing with John - Soundtrack Music (Strange and Beautiful)

Briggan Krauss w/ Wayne Horvitz and Kenny Wollesen: 300 (Knitting
Factory)




Gotta go soak my fingers... hope you found this of interest.  Me, I
gotta find a pile of stuff to sell to raise money towards the vast
amount of music I'll have to buy this summer...

Steve Smith
[e-mail]





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From: "m. rizzi" <[e-mail]>
Subject: zorn-list ADMIN notice
Date: 17 May 1998 23:51:31 -0700 (PDT)


I'll be out of town for the next week, so all
zorn-list related administration will have to
wait until I return.

Also, messages over 5K in size get automatically
sent to me for approval by the list software (this
helps prevent spam and accidental posting of huge
files -- usually attachments or images).

Thus, if you are one of the verbose members of
our list, then your message will sit in my mailbox
until I return. To avoid this horrible fate for
your precious prose, please keep your messages
short and concise for the next week.

mike
zorn-list-administrator-and-fascist


--
[e-mail] -------------------------------------- www.browbeat.com
                   "Another nerd with a soulpatch"
-------- browbeat magazine, po box 11124, oakland, ca 94611-1124 -------

-



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From: "Artur Nowak" <[e-mail]>
Subject: "JUST SO HAPPENS" - Gary PEACOCK
Date: 18 May 1998 23:49:13 +0200

Hi Philozorners!

I'm looking for info about this record:
- "JUST SO HAPPENS" - Gary PEACOCK
__ POSTCARDS INC. (1005)  19__.

Can anybody please tell what kind of music it is? I know Frisell plays some
guitar on this record, but is it any good?

I would appreciate also track listing, lineup, release date and other
details.

Thaks

Artur
       ____________________________________________________________________
       Artur Nowak
       www.silesia.top.pl/~arno/emd/pl40/artists/f/frisell_bill/default.htm




-



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From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Dutch Music recommendations sought/Whitehead book
Date: 18 May 1998 21:44:55 -0400 (EDT)

You can hear Wierbos on a few of Gerry Hemmingway's hatArt
recordings, The Marmalade King comes quickest to mind.

As for Whitehead's book, I think it's well done, but whoever did the
index should be shot. It's so limited and skimpy as to necessitate
looking through the entire volume to find additional information.

To take one example, Burton Greene has one reference in the index. At my
count he's mentioned at least six times.

Mr. Information

Ken Waxman
[e-mail]

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dan Given <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Dutch Music recommendations sought
Date: 18 May 1998 22:55:19 +0100

Brian Olewnick asked:
>So, if anyone out there can
>recommend recordings by any of the following folk or groups, I'd be much
>obliged: Maarten Altena (I've heard some of the Hat Art stuff from the
>late 80's), Available Jelly, Ab Baars, Peter van Bergen, Michael Braam,
>Guus Janssen, Paul Termos and Wolter Wierbos.

Brian-congratulations on finishing the book. I got too busy and had to set
it aside for a while.

As for what Dutch music I think is worth checking out, beyond the obvious
(not all from your list):

Wolter Wierbos- X Caliber (ICP)-solo trombone from a couple of years ago.
Often quiet,     melodic, and fun, not really things generally associated with
solo trombone.  One of my     favs from last year.

    If you ever happen across the Podium Trio disc (Van Kamenade, Wierbos,
Kuiper) on     Diskus, pick it up.  Odd.  Free improv, bebop, fusion, all over
the place.  Not really     what I would call good, but interesting.  Probably
not easy to find though.

Sean Bergin- Kids Mysteries (Nimbus)- many great players here (Bennink,
Reijseger, Wierbos,     Honsinger, Glerum, Moore...).  Lots of fun.  African
inspired compositions setting up     improvs.  Some of the best writing I can
think of.

Tobias Delius- The Heron (ICP)- Delius has a big tenor sound (reminds me of
someone like     Dexter Gordon).  With Bennink and Honsinger.  I don't know
what to say, except I really     like it.

Eric Boeren- Crossbreeding (BIMhuis)- Dutch (read: off beat)
interpretations of Ornette.     Boeren on trumpet leading various quartets w/
Baars, Bergin, Glerum,...Good     introduction to many of the players.

Wim Janssen- Lighter (Geestgronden)- Wim and Guus Janssen, Ernst Glerum.
The title says it     all; a lighter (but not fluffy) version of, say, a
Mengelberg trio record. very nice.

I have yet to hear any Altena I really like, except for his contribution to
Marion Brown's Porto Novo.  Recommendations welcome.

As an aside, in the book Wilbert De Joode mentions playing with Denis
Charles and Jemeel Moondoc. This recording has recently been issued  as
Captain of the Deep on Eremite.  A must have.  Heavily Ornette influenced,
Moondoc is great, De Joode is wonderful and really well recorded, Charles
was the master of rimshots.  Will be at the top of my list for this years
best.

Dan


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Oger <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: looking for...
Date: 19 May 1998 12:39:11 +0200 (MET DST)

There is a good mail order service : Metamkine (located in France)
Adress is : [e-mail].
They have "Impropositions" and a lot of great, hard to find music.

Jacques Oger

>Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 15:07:30 -0400
>From: Tom Pratt <[e-mail]>
>Subject:
>
>Hey! I'm trying to locate copies of two CD's that I'm having an
>absolutely impossible time finding. They are 'Impropositions' by Mats
>Gustafsson (1996 - Phono Suecia, PSCD 99) and 'Live At Fasching' by Gush
>(1996 - Dragon, DRCD 313). North Country doesn't have them and neither
>does Allegro (whom I believe carries both these labels?). They aren't at
>Forced Exposure or Wayside either.
>
>If anybody knows how I can find these titles (at a decent price) or if
>you see either in stock at your local stores and would be willing to
>pick them up for me (obviously I'd give you the money!), please let me
>know. Thanks!
>
>                -Tom Pratt
>



-



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From: Alan E Kayser <[e-mail]>
Subject: Clusone
Date: 19 May 1998 08:26:05 -0400

Was anyone out there lucky enough to tape Clusone at the KF?  I have
lots to trade, so get in touch.

Thanks
Alan


-



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From: DR S WILKIE <[e-mail]>
Subject:       Re: Penguin Guide To Jazz On CD
Date: 19 May 1998 13:08:35 GMT0BST

An indispensable reference book, yes.  But, having noticed so many
people mention it, I wonder if y'all would like to help me with a
little project I've had in mind for a while now.  basically, this
would involve compiling the many ERRORS in the book: e.g. (my
favourite) the review of David Murray's "Children" album (this is in
both the first and second edition, maybe the third too) where they
complain about James Blood Ulmer and Don Pullen "getting in each
other's way"; unlikely, really, as both play on just one track each
and - you guessed it - it isn't the same track.

Now, I'm not interested in matters of disagreement, tho' i do include
things like the different rating given to Paul Motian Trio "one Time
Out" when it's reviewed under Lovano's name!

There are plenty of albums reviewed but not listed, and listed but
not reviewed.  And some where it's hard to work out which - if
either - of these is the case (eg Paul Motian, where they talk
of a Soul Note [album] which covers The Man I Love and other
standards, but which looks as though it can only be wrongly referring
to One Time Out).  Also, mistaken catalogue numbers??

And, an interesting category would consist of gullibly following
mistaken info from album sleeves (there's one about David Murray, the
bass clarinet, Butch Morris' tune, Red Car, and the sleeve note
to the I Want To Talk About You live album, which is too complicated
to go into here)

The idea would be to forward the end result to the authors.

If you've got any favourite bloopers, then, please post them to me
personally, [e-mail], though I'm happy for them to go on
the list too if they're entertaining (ie NOT wrong catalogue numbers
eg).  Please put "Penguin Guide" in the message subject line (so I
can file them easily).  Also, PLEASE, indicate which edition or
editions you're referring to (and page no. too would be super!).


Sean Wilkie

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From: Vadim Marmer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Kronos in the Katmandu box
Date: 19 May 1998 19:16:32 +0300 (WET)

i think, it was the strangest purchase in my life. i saw the disc of
"katmandu" ( i don`t know anything about that band, late i was told that
they play heavy metal) on sale for something like $4. i don`t know why
(may be cheapness) i decided to check it... but inside the box i found
Kronos Quartet`s "Released 1985-1995(disc one)". i picked up it,
and it`s really great, it`s my favorite now, and i feel that i have to buy
more. i understand, that it`s compilation, but because instead KQ i have
only "katmandu" sleeve i cann`t know the where songs are taken from.

can anybody send me the list of songs (and info from which albums they are
taken)? also any recommendation of others KQ albums will be appreciated
(before that, i heard them only on Spillane).


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Joseph S. Zitt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Kronos in the Katmandu box
Date: 19 May 1998 11:25:04 -0500 (CDT)

On Tue, 19 May 1998, Vadim Marmer wrote:

> can anybody send me the list of songs (and info from which albums they are
> taken)? also any recommendation of others KQ albums will be appreciated
> (before that, i heard them only on Spillane).

See http://www.lochnet.com/client/gs/kq_released8595.html
(Someday the idea of Web searching will catch on...)

- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Snap" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Kronos in the Katmandu box
Date: 20 May 1998 14:15:31 -0400

Vadim wrote:


>can anybody send me the list of songs (and info from which albums they are
>taken)? also any recommendation of others KQ albums will be appreciated
>(before that, i heard them only on Spillane).
>



    Although a good album - yet by no means an archtypal compendium of
Kronos at their best, IMHO - "Released" seems to present their sunnier side,
considering that more extravagant peices of Crumb's "Black Angels" remain
exclusively on the album of the same name. Other good 'uns are:
        Short Stories - probably their most eclectic (and my personal
favorite), with arrangements from Elliott Sharp, Steven Mackey, John Oswald,
and John Zorn.
        Night Prayers - a dark offering of Eastern European composers like
Sofia Gubaidulina, Osvaldo Golijov, et al.
        The Dreams and Prayers of Isaac the Blind - by Osvaldo Golijov, for
string quartet and clarinets (David Krakauer).
        Ghost Opera - for string quartet, water, rocks, paper, and chinese
pipa (Wu Man) by Tan Dun.

    The double CD Salome and the Last Dance for Peace (sic?) by Terry Riley
is all right, as is Early Music, which, I believe is their latest. Not too
familiar with White Man Sleeps or their albums of Philip Glass or Morton
Feldman, as I didn't find them interesting enough at the used CD shops to go
beyond just listing through them and actually buying them. There are a few
more full lengths and around a dozen of EPs, one of which is Bob Ostertag's
All the Rage, which I'd like to check out. Anyone heard this one yet?




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Christopher Hamilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Kronos in the Katmandu box
Date: 19 May 1998 17:39:01 -0400 (EDT)



On Tue, 19 May 1998, Vadim Marmer wrote:

> can anybody send me the list of songs (and info from which albums they are
> taken)? also any recommendation of others KQ albums will be appreciated
> (before that, i heard them only on Spillane).

Not knowing what you liked on the compilation (or what's on it), I'd
recommend buying albums featuring compositions by composers you're into or
with guest instrumentalists you like.  I'm currently biggest on their
mid-80's Landmark records, featuring mostly pretty cool arrangements of
compositions by Monk, Ellington, Bill Evans and Miles Davis, and available
as a cheap 2-disc set on 32 Jazz.  But if you don't like the original
composers, this probably isn't a good place to start with them or Kronos.

Chris Hamilton


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tom Pratt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Kronos in the Katmandu box
Date: 19 May 1998 17:39:22 -0400

Snap wrote:
>
> Vadim wrote:
>
> >can anybody send me the list of songs (and info from which albums they are
> >taken)? also any recommendation of others KQ albums will be appreciated
> >(before that, i heard them only on Spillane).
> >
>
>     Although a good album - yet by no means an archtypal compendium of
> Kronos at their best, IMHO - "Released" seems to present their sunnier side,
> considering that more extravagant peices of Crumb's "Black Angels" remain
> exclusively on the album of the same name. Other good 'uns are:
>         Short Stories - probably their most eclectic (and my personal
> favorite), with arrangements from Elliott Sharp, Steven Mackey, John Oswald,
> and John Zorn.
>         Night Prayers - a dark offering of Eastern European composers like
> Sofia Gubaidulina, Osvaldo Golijov, et al.
>         The Dreams and Prayers of Isaac the Blind - by Osvaldo Golijov, for
> string quartet and clarinets (David Krakauer).
>         Ghost Opera - for string quartet, water, rocks, paper, and chinese
> pipa (Wu Man) by Tan Dun.
>
>     The double CD Salome and the Last Dance for Peace (sic?) by Terry Riley
> is all right, as is Early Music, which, I believe is their latest. Not too
> familiar with White Man Sleeps or their albums of Philip Glass or Morton
> Feldman, as I didn't find them interesting enough at the used CD shops to go
> beyond just listing through them and actually buying them. There are a few
> more full lengths and around a dozen of EPs, one of which is Bob Ostertag's
> All the Rage, which I'd like to check out. Anyone heard this one yet?
>
> -

Also, their Nonesuch disc of Henryk Gorecki's first two String Quartets
is pretty amazing. Very dark and intense... check it out!

                -Tom Pratt

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: gsliepen <[e-mail]>
Subject: naked city
Date: 20 May 1998 00:27:13 +0200

I'm looking for some Naked City CD's.Can anybody give me some suggestions
for their
albums?

Ol

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Matthew Colonnese)
Subject: Yoshihide recs
Date: 19 May 1998 18:47:48 -0400 (EDT)


>On a totally unrelated note, I want to purchase some more of Otomo's stuff.
>I'm particularly interested in the stuff he did with Phew. Does anybody own
>any of that, and if so what does it sound like?

So this is old, I've been meaning to get to it, but hoping someone else
would.  The only Phew/Otomo thing I know of the Novo Tono album on Creative
Man (name escapes me).  It's a decent solid recording of an arty sometimes
noisy rock band.  Phew, of course, does alot of talk vocalizing over quiet
numbers and an occasional more "out" piece, though nothing really crazed.
I rarely get the urge to listen to this, and given the participants I
expected more.  No sampling craziness from Otomo, certainly.

I had the same reaction the Dragon Blue album on Avant.  Stellar lineup,
decent rock band.  While I guess it's nice that these folks can just have
fun and play rock and roll once in a while, I'm not sure I needed to hear
it.  The drummer is very good, certain prog appeal overal throughout, but
overall I feel a studied distance in everyone's playing.  What else has
Tenko done?  I really liked her duet album with Ikue Mori.

matt


------
"Finally, a thing-a-ma-giggy that would bring people together...even if it
kept them apart, spatially."



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Bas Stienen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: naked city
Date: 20 May 1998 08:17:21 +0100


> I'm looking for some Naked City CD's.Can anybody give me some suggestions
> for their
> albums?

There are several excellent CD's from Naked City. I've got:
        Radio
        Torture Garden
        Heretic
There are all noise albums with lovely sreaming of EYE
I recommend these albums

greetings

SC


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DR S WILKIE <[e-mail]>
Subject:       Perception?
Date: 20 May 1998 12:00:07 GMT0BST

Jeff Schuth wrote:

>Somewhere along the way, we all heard something that your wife
>didn't in this music

The difficulty with this, I think, is akin to ambiguity.  It veers
between being true just because "we" like it and "your wife" doesn't -
that is, just a way of expressing that fact - and being instead
possibly true, in the way in which "your wife" MIGHT like it anyway,
EVEN THOUGH she didn't hear what "we" heard in it.

In the second sense, what "we" hear can be quite simple (a particular
instrument, or a particular phrase or quote, or even a mistake) or
something more complex (inversions, some large scale organisational
feature, some relationship with another piece of music, or even
perhaps that elusive "content" stuff that folks have been jabbering
about)

My worry is that there may be a tendency to think if it's true
in the first sense then that MUST BE because there is something
(probably of the complex variety) in the second sense that "we" hear
but that "your wife" doesn't.  They seem to me instead to be separate
questions, even though it MAY BE that "your wife"'s failure to hear
something (2nd sense) contributes to her not liking it.


Sean Wilkie

-



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From: [e-mail] (Caleb Deupree)
Subject: recent goodies
Date: 20 May 1998 09:21:11 -0400

Some recent acquisitions.

Elliot Sharp, Spring & Neap (Zoar).  Listmember Tom Pratt's been
raving about this one since the top 20 thread a while back, so I
decided to take the plunge into this tidal sensory overload.  One
medium-short piece (35 min) of waves which start quietly enough, but
build into a most delightful chaos.  Excellent recommendation, but it
would definitely be a candidate for the too-short-CDs thread that
crops up periodically.

Teiji Ito, Meshes (Non Sequitur).  Experimental film music from the
1950s and 1970s.  Lots of primitive sounding percussion and wooden
flutes, sounding almost native American sometimes.  On the weekends,
early in the morning, we've been opening the windows at home and
listening to all of the birds before the traffic and power tool noises
become too loud, and this CD fits in perfectly with the birdsong.
It's fairly sparse, and mostly acoustic instruments, although the
techniques to construct the original tapes required fairly
sophisticated studio work.

Ulrich Kreiger, Walls of Sound (O.O.).  Three pieces for multitracked
sax and one for multitracked didgeridoo.  Three of the four pieces are
based on drones, and one of them, a version of John Cage's Four, is
stunningly beautiful.  The non-drone piece, Video Sax by Joseph Celli,
is somewhat out of place, but the other three works are very nice.

Christian Marclay, Records (Atavistic).  My first exposure to
Marclay's solo work leaves me somewhat disappointed.  While the work
that he does is certainly interesting, my expectations are set by
Plexure (since I've been seeing the word 'plunderphonic' applied to
Marclay's work).  I'm starting to think that Plexure is the ne plus
ultra of plunderphonics, so I need to set this one aside and come back
to it when my expectations have been revised.  Very similar to Martin
Tetrault's cutup vinyl work on Ambiences Magnetiques.

ReR Contemporary Music CMCD.  ReR's collection of musique concrete was
another mild disappointment, first because I'd forgotten how much of
this I have on vinyl, but also because one of the two pieces which I
didn't have (Richard Trythall's Omaggio a Jerry Lee Lewis), and for
which I had the same too-high plunderphonic-type expectations as
Marclay, moved me much less than I'd hoped.  Sigh.  The Oswald piece
on this CD is one of his more subtle works, based on Satie's music.
Lutz Glandien has an amazing work for tuba and tape, and Steve Moore
contributes a very moving environmental soundscape.

Fred Frith, The Previous Evening (ReR).  Overall my favorite from this
bunch, three composed pieces based on the methods of Cage, Feldman,
and Brown.  The Cage piece, which is first on the CD, is chaotic,
starting with demonic laughter, having random quotes from Cage's
books, episodic noises, etc.  The Feldman piece is for (mostly) piano,
isolated notes across the whole range of the instrument, very
delicate.  I'm least familiar with Earle Brown's methods, but this
also sounds episodic, pointillistic (not as much as the Feldman, which
really concentrates on individual notes), featuring violin, piano, and
clarinet.  I'm very impressed with this CD, one of the best
compositional efforts I've heard from Frith.

And, as an extra bonus, as I'm writing this my colleague has brought
in volume 3 of Ground Zero's Project Consume, the remixes from the
general public.  There are fourteen tracks (so mostly short) from
complete unknowns, most of whom are from Japan, but a couple of US and
Australia, one Germany, one China.  This is my first listening, but
even after volume 2 I felt that the effect of remixing only diluted
the power of the original.  Some of these remixes have recognizable
sounds from the original, but most of them have chosen the noisy bits
as source material.  Interesting listening, but not really a Ground
Zero album.  My colleague's initial reaction: There's a lot of people
who listen to Ground Zero for reasons other than why *I* listen to
Ground Zero.


---
Caleb T. Deupree
;; Opinions...  funny thing about opinions, they can change.

Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers.
(Pablo Picasso)


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Zorn List Digest V2 #373
Date: 20 May 1998 12:28:51 -0400

Ken Waxman wrote:

     As for Whitehead's book, I think it's well done, but
     whoever did the index should be shot. It's so limited and
     skimpy as to necessitate looking through the entire volume
     to find additional information.

Hm...  My copy came with an addendum to the index which is actually
longer than the index in the book.  Problem is, now i have to look up
things twice!  If I were you, I'd write to the publisher for the update.




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Recent Sharp; was: recent goodies
Date: 20 May 1998 12:38:09 -0500


Caleb wrote:

>Elliot Sharp, Spring & Neap (Zoar).  Listmember Tom Pratt's been
>raving about this one since the top 20 thread a while back, so I
>decided to take the plunge into this tidal sensory overload.  One
>medium-short piece (35 min) of waves which start quietly enough, but
>build into a most delightful chaos.  Excellent recommendation, but it
>would definitely be a candidate for the too-short-CDs thread that
>crops up periodically.

     (BTW, thanks for the reviews)

     As someone who's been listening to Sharp since ISM in the early 80's
     but who has tired of his recorded output in recent years, I'd be
     interested to hear some z-listers' recommendations of his best recent
     work.

     For some context, I think he peaked with the extraordinary LARYNX on
     SST. I also enjoyed earlier work like CARBON (Zoar) and FRACTAL
     (Dossier) as well as the relatively recent TERRAPLANE. Often I find
     his ideas more interesting than the realization (MARCO POLO'S ARGALI,
     TWISTMAP) and sometimes I think the projects simply fail (K!L!A!V!,
     and tripe like the adolescent--at best--IN THE LAND OF THE YAHOOS).
     So, given all this, which releases from the last five years or so do
     you think this crabby listener would enjoy?

     Thanks.

     Brian Olewnick

     PS. Did the Bootstrappers group ever release anything other than the
     original CD (on Enemy, I think?)?



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Scott Handley" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn List Digest V2 #373
Date: 20 May 1998 12:13:45 PDT

When I saw Whitehead read from NEW DUTCH SWING at the Bottle Fest in
Chicago, he said that anyone who wanted a list of errata and (I think
maybe) additional index material could e.mail him at
[e-mail].  Just so ya'll know.


>From: [e-mail]
>To: [e-mail]
>Cc: [e-mail]
>Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 12:28:51 -0400
>Subject: Re: Zorn List Digest V2 #373
>
>Ken Waxman wrote:
>
>     As for Whitehead's book, I think it's well done, but
>     whoever did the index should be shot. It's so limited and
>     skimpy as to necessitate looking through the entire volume
>     to find additional information.
>
>Hm...  My copy came with an addendum to the index which is actually
>longer than the index in the book.  Problem is, now i have to look up
>things twice!  If I were you, I'd write to the publisher for the
update.
>
>
>
>
>-
>
>


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: D Royko <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Penguin Guide
Date: 20 May 1998 15:14:21 EDT

In a message dated 98-05-20 13:46:09 EDT, you write:
>If you've got any favourite bloopers, then, please post them to me
>personally, [e-mail], though I'm happy for them to go on
>the list too if they're entertaining (ie NOT wrong catalogue numbers
>eg).

Here's one:

In all 3 editions, p. 670 in the third ed., Ibrahim:

Refering to KAZ CD 7 as a "live" set by Ekaya, when in fact it is a selection
of studio tracks taken from the "Ekaya" and "Water From An Ancient Well"
recordings.

Dave Royko

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Herb Levy <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: New Zornian Releases
Date: 20 May 1998 12:20:49 -0800

Steve Smith wrote:

>Rerelease of John Oswald's "Plexure"

Steve, do you know if this is a straight re-issue or if it's been
re-recorded or added to?

Oswald has been quoted as saying there were some changes he wanted to make
in the piece.

Bests,

Herb


Herb Levy
[e-mail]



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "M.A. Piper" <[e-mail]>
Subject: YO MILES!
Date: 20 May 1998 14:18:40 -0500 (EST)

Hi all,

I have just updated the Henry Kaiser website with the liner notes from the
forthcoming YO MILES!, an album of Miles Davis interpretations by Henry
and Wadada Leo Smith. Included in the notes is "Procession of the Great
Ancestry," a beautiful piece of poetry by Mr. Smith, and a great essay
by Enrico Merlin, noted Davis authority.

The liner notes for YO MILES! are available at:
    http://php.indiana.edu/~mpiper/HKYOMILES.html

Best,

M. A. Piper

IU School of Library and Information Science
    "Tu id inveni tibi...
        quid videor -- bibliothecarius?"

The Official Henry Kaiser Website
    http://php.indiana.edu/~mpiper/HKMain.html
        "The best in contemporary improvisation..."



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Keldon Drudge <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Kronos in the Katmandu box
Date: 20 May 1998 15:22:50 -0400 (EDT)

also well worth the (rather modest) price is the ep _five tango
sensations_ featuring astor piazzola on bandoneon (compositions
by same).

On Wed, 20 May 1998, Snap wrote:

> Vadim wrote:
>
>
> >can anybody send me the list of songs (and info from which albums they are
> >taken)? also any recommendation of others KQ albums will be appreciated
> >(before that, i heard them only on Spillane).
> >
>
>
>
>     Although a good album - yet by no means an archtypal compendium of
> Kronos at their best, IMHO - "Released" seems to present their sunnier side,
> considering that more extravagant peices of Crumb's "Black Angels" remain
> exclusively on the album of the same name. Other good 'uns are:
>         Short Stories - probably their most eclectic (and my personal
> favorite), with arrangements from Elliott Sharp, Steven Mackey, John Oswald,
> and John Zorn.
>         Night Prayers - a dark offering of Eastern European composers like
> Sofia Gubaidulina, Osvaldo Golijov, et al.
>         The Dreams and Prayers of Isaac the Blind - by Osvaldo Golijov, for
> string quartet and clarinets (David Krakauer).
>         Ghost Opera - for string quartet, water, rocks, paper, and chinese
> pipa (Wu Man) by Tan Dun.
>
>     The double CD Salome and the Last Dance for Peace (sic?) by Terry Riley
> is all right, as is Early Music, which, I believe is their latest. Not too
> familiar with White Man Sleeps or their albums of Philip Glass or Morton
> Feldman, as I didn't find them interesting enough at the used CD shops to go
> beyond just listing through them and actually buying them. There are a few
> more full lengths and around a dozen of EPs, one of which is Bob Ostertag's
> All the Rage, which I'd like to check out. Anyone heard this one yet?
>
>
>
>
> -
>


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Mark Logan and Kathleen O'Grady" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Victoriaville
Date: 20 May 1998 18:05:56 -0400

Hi all
   Just got back from a wonderful few days in Victoriaviile.  It was my
first time in the area and at the festival.  Gorgeous part of Quebec and
a first rate fest.  The 2 Zorn performances were a highlight among many
excellent shows.  The saturday evening was billed as "Modern Chamber
Music".  Feldman, Friedlander, Anthony Coleman (subbing for David Shea),
William Winant along with another percussionist and keyboardist whose
names I didnt catch.  The centerpiece of the performance was Duras,
which was performed in it's entirity in the second half of the show.
The first portion consisted of 3 pieces, Etant Donnes, something called
Music for Children I think and a drum duet.  The drum piece was
interesting in that the volume of William's drum was such that it verged
on feeding back quite often.  Zorn was at the back by the soundboard for
this piece and was clearly manipulating the volume and toying with the
feedback.  Duras was magnificent and IMHO, the most successful piece of
the night.
    Zorn/Patton/Mori was fantastic as well.  Zorn's sax playing was
otherworldly and his five-minute-straight-circular-breathing was a joy
to witness !!!
    Too many other highlights to get into, but overall the festival
seemed really well attended and superbly executed.
    Finally, anyone interested in trading live tapes, get in touch !!
Id love to hear more
of this sort of music in a live setting !!!


bye
mark



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Christopher Hamilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Victoriaville
Date: 20 May 1998 20:37:24 -0400 (EDT)



On Wed, 20 May 1998, Mark Logan and Kathleen O'Grady wrote:

>     Zorn/Patton/Mori was fantastic as well.  Zorn's sax playing was
> otherworldly and his five-minute-straight-circular-breathing was a joy
> to witness !!!

Aw, he'll have to go a lot longer than that if he wants to break the
G-man's record...8^)

Chris Hamilton




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Christopher Hamilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: _Plexure_ vs._ Records_
Date: 20 May 1998 20:43:34 -0400 (EDT)



On Wed, 20 May 1998, Caleb Deupree wrote:

> Some recent acquisitions.
> Marclay's solo work leaves me somewhat disappointed.  While the work
> that he does is certainly interesting, my expectations are set by
> Plexure (since I've been seeing the word 'plunderphonic' applied to
> Marclay's work).  I'm starting to think that Plexure is the ne plus
> ultra of plunderphonics, so I need to set this one aside and come back
> to it when my expectations have been revised.

Probably so.  Other than the fact that both involve taking sounds produced
by other people and recontextualizing them, the work on _Records_ doesn't
have much in common with _Plexure_.  Marclay seems more interested in the
physicality of his records, layering of sounds, more straightforward
rhythmic devices, and real-time performance than Oswald does (on these
records).  I think they're both great, but totally different.

>  Very similar to Martin
> Tetrault's cutup vinyl work on Ambiences Magnetiques.

FIrst I've heard of him.  Any recommendations?

Chris Hamilton


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: JonAbbey2 <[e-mail]>
Subject: Tetreault/Victoriaville
Date: 20 May 1998 23:24:55 EDT


In a message dated 5/20/98 8:46:08 PM, [e-mail] wrote:

<<>  Very similar to Martin
> Tetrault's cutup vinyl work on Ambiences Magnetiques.

FIrst I've heard of him.  Any recommendations?>>

Tetreault's set was one of the highlights of this past weekend's Victoriaville
festival. His piece consisted of taking three plastic turntables and using the
needles on the platters themselves, as well as inside the turntables. He had a
ton of different techniques and ideas and put together a really coherent set.

Tetreault has 4 CDs avialble, to the best of my knowledge. The first is a
record released on Ambiances Magnetiques in 1990, which I haven't heard but is
supposedly fairly primitive compared to the work he's doing now. Then he
seemed to kind of disappear from the scene for a while. The second, La Nuit Ou
J'Ai Dit Non, just came out recently on the Belgian label Lowlands and is a
collage of various twentieth century classical fragments (including Henry,
Subotnick, Wuorinen) stitched together to form one seamless whole. One of my
favorite records of the year so far.

He also just put out two collaborative efforts on Ambiances Magnetiques, one
with Rene Lussier and one with Ikue Mori and Diane Labrosse. I haven't heard
either of these yet.

I'd recommend checking Tetreault's work out for fans of Marclay or Otomo.
Actually, Tetreault and Otomo have a duet record coming out at some point that
I'm looking forward to.

A few more quick Victoriaville thoughts:

I've been to the last three and this was easily the most successful musically.
My personal highlights included Tetreault, the Clusone Trio,
Leimgruber/Crispell/Leandre/Hauser, and the Nihilist Spasm Band.

But the band that stole the festival was Doppelmoppel. Two trombones (the
Bauer brothers), an electric guitar (the brillaint Joe Sachse, who I had never
heard before), and an acoustic guitar (Uwe Kropinski). Unfortunately, the only
records they've made are an out of print LP from 1981 and a superb FMP cd that
was recorded in 1986. Hopefully, Victo will release the tape of this set.

I didn't find the Zorn sets especially compelling. The Modern Chamber Music
program was Music For Children, Dark River, Etant Donnes, and Duras. My
impressions of this ranged from nice but unessential to downright aggravating
in the case of the Duchamp tribute. The Zorn/Mori/Patton set I found enjoyable
for a while, but Patton's ideas are few and far between and Zorn seems to have
no middle range when he's doing free improv between long circular breathing
solos and quiet, prettier passages. I found myself wishing for a more nuanced
sax player and singer about twenty minutes in.

Just my opinion,
Jon

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: NYLifer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Gary Lucas Radio Broadcast
Date: 21 May 1998 00:25:19 EDT

In a message dated 98-05-14 10:18:56 EDT, [e-mail]
writes:

>       NYC area z-listers might be interested to tune in to WNYC's New Sounds
>       program this evening at 11:00 PM (93.9). Gary Lucas will be performing
>       what he described as "a blistering set" of pieces from 'Busy Being
>       Born' (recorded a couple of days ago).

Did anybody tape this, hopefully on DAT? Plenty to offer in trade.

Robert

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jan-Wen Lu <[e-mail]>
Subject: Martin Tetreault
Date: 21 May 1998 17:38:49 +0800



> Tetreault has 4 CDs avialble, to the best of my knowledge. The first
> is a
> record released on Ambiances Magnetiques in 1990, which I haven't
> heard but is
> supposedly fairly primitive compared to the work he's doing now. Then
> he
> seemed to kind of disappear from the scene for a while. The second, La
> Nuit Ou
> J'Ai Dit Non, just came out recently on the Belgian label Lowlands and
> is a
> collage of various twentieth century classical fragments (including
> Henry,
> Subotnick, Wuorinen) stitched together to form one seamless whole. One
> of my
> favorite records of the year so far.

Tetreault also has a cassette on Ambiances Magnetiques titled
"Snippettes", a limitededition of 250 copies. Besides this, he is also
the member of the wonderful trio-
Bruire, with M.F. Cote and Robert M. Lepage. They have several titles
available.


> I'd recommend checking Tetreault's work out for fans of Marclay or
> Otomo.
> Actually, Tetreault and Otomo have a duet record coming out at some
> point that
> I'm looking forward to.

In my own point of view, Tetreault's early works are similar to Marclay
and Otomo.For the new CD on Audioview, he seems to change his style.
More multi-layered
abstract sounds. Unlike his early cut-up, plunderphonics works.


Tetreault's collaboration disc with Otomo will be available on Ambiances
Magnetiques.
Otomo will release a live recording of Tetreault, Otomo, Yasuhiro Otani,
and Sachiko
M on his own Amoebic label later this year.



Jan-Wen Lu


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Caleb Deupree)
Subject: Re: Tetreault/Victoriaville
Date: 21 May 1998 08:58:45 -0400

>>>>> "Jon" == JonAbbey2  <[e-mail]> writes:

    Jon> Tetreault has 4 CDs avialble, to the best of my
    Jon> knowledge. The first is a record released on Ambiances
    Jon> Magnetiques in 1990, which I haven't heard but is supposedly
    Jon> fairly primitive compared to the work he's doing now.

I've probably got this first one, Des Pas et Des Mois.  I don't
remember much about it, except that on one track he took three records
and cuts them like pieces of a pie, then glued them together, one
piece from each separate record.  Very similar to some of the tracks
on the Marclay CD.

---
Caleb T. Deupree
;; Opinions...  funny thing about opinions, they can change.

Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers.
(Pablo Picasso)


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "pfMENTUM" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Hemingway In SoCalifornia
Date: 21 May 1998 09:53:53 -0700

The Gerry Hemingway Quartet with Dresser, Eskelin, and Ray Anderson will be
performing at City Hall in Ventura CA at 8:00 PM on Saturday, June 13.
Tickets are 7 bucks at the door.

Private e-mail for more info.

pfMENTUM



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Douglas Tapia)
Subject: Re: All the rage.
Date: 21 May 1998 11:16:20 -0700


>> There are a few
>> more full lengths and around a dozen of EPs, one of which is Bob Ostertag's
>> All the Rage, which I'd like to check out. Anyone heard this one yet?


Yeah, I've had this for I think going on 3 or so years.  I've not listened
to it much, not for any real reason, I just forget that I have it.  What I
can remember is that it's a spoken word thing, with prose centered around
"being queer" and what that means to the author.  (perhaps, subconsiously,
I was slightly put off by this)  There is interplay of the quartet along
with generous helpings of sampling, most notably sounds from a gay pride
parade.

Now that I'm thinking about it, I really don't remember too much of this
work, perhaps I'll have to go home tonight and give it another listen.  I
let you know if I discover something cool that I may have missed or
forgotten.

Peace,

-Doug



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Benjamin Pequet <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Recent Sharp etc
Date: 22 May 1998 11:59:35 +0200

>     As someone who's been listening to Sharp since ISM in the early 80's
>     but who has tired of his recorded output in recent years, I'd be
>     interested to hear some z-listers' recommendations of his best recent
>     work.

# with Ronny Someck (reading) a cd called Revenge of the stuttering child
(psycho-blues, post-klezmer, just beautiful) [TZ7117]

# with someone named Princess Esther I think, or Queen Esther or something
like that (singing) was well worth a listening (Elliott Sharp playing
guitars, one on each channel, in the same vein but more interesting than
Terraplane if you allow me a comparison. In the notes the girl thanks her
family and Sharp wishes to thank the devil)

# with queen Zeena Parkins and Optical 8 and Melt Banana some time ago, a cd
called Chipfarm (Japanese noise terrorists, lots of Japanese and lots of
noise, nice and sweet, you have to follow that stuff) [God Mountain GMCD016]

# with Zeena Parkins on about half the tracks of a cd called Slut (Japanese
witch, on the cover. I know nothing about who are the other musicians, I
hear Marc Ribot on a few tracks too, but all the cd is really good)

There's so much stuff. With Godco on the cd Straight not for example. The cd
Interference, that put an end to Carbon is almost music to dance on
[Atavistic ALP50CD]. Apparition on the Haymish groove cd [Extraplatte
EX316155CD]. The Shambala cd with William Hooker [KFWCD151].
And I am sure I will recommend the cd of improvisations of the Sharp and
Frances-Marie Uitti as soon as I get to listen to it.

I can find more info on these ones if you want me to, title of the cd, with
whom exactly, record company etc, just get back to me privately. Or maybe
all that could be filed at www.lamediatheque.be and you could find the info
there ? It should but, sorry I can't check now, I don't have internet access
anymore. Sorry for being vague and maybe repeat things that can have been
said by others now, I have only a periodic email access.
I hope this helps anyway. I guess you can do a search and find more info
about this somewhere on the net. I don't know if you would enjoy these
records Brian, these are as different from each other as possible... yet
still Sharp.
Well, I did enjoy these recordings and I relate totally to the comments you
made about the discs of Sharp you mention - except that I got to listen to
them about ten years later.

Later.  Benj


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Benjamin Pequet <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Recent Sharp etc
Date: 22 May 1998 12:02:58 +0200

>     As someone who's been listening to Sharp since ISM in the early 80's
>     but who has tired of his recorded output in recent years, I'd be
>     interested to hear some z-listers' recommendations of his best recent
>     work.

# with Ronny Someck (reading) a cd called Revenge of the stuttering child
(psycho-blues, post-klezmer, just beautiful) [TZ7117]

# with someone named Princess Esther I think, or Queen Esther or something
like that (singing) was well worth a listening (Elliott Sharp playing
guitars, one on each channel, in the same vein but more interesting than
Terraplane if you allow me a comparison. In the notes the girl thanks her
family and Sharp wishes to thank the devil)

# with queen Zeena Parkins and Optical 8 and Melt Banana some time ago, a cd
called Chipfarm (Japanese noise terrorists, lots of Japanese and lots of
noise, nice and sweet, you have to follow that stuff) [God Mountain GMCD016]

# with Zeena Parkins on about half the tracks of a cd called Slut (Japanese
witch, on the cover. I know nothing about who are the other musicians, I
hear Marc Ribot on a few tracks too, but all the cd is really good)

There's so much stuff. With Godco on the cd Straight not for example. The cd
Interference, that put an end to Carbon is almost music to dance on
[Atavistic ALP50CD]. Apparition on the Haymish groove cd [Extraplatte
EX316155CD]. The Shambala cd with William Hooker [KFWCD151].
And I am sure I will recommend the cd of improvisations of the Sharp and
Frances-Marie Uitti as soon as I get to listen to it.

I can find more info on these ones if you want me to, title of the cd, with
whom exactly, record company etc, just get back to me privately. Or maybe
all that could be filed at www.lamediatheque.be and you could find the info
there ? It should but, sorry I can't check now, I don't have internet access
anymore. Sorry for being vague and maybe repeat things that can have been
said by others now, I have only a periodic email access.
I hope this helps anyway. I guess you can do a search and find more info
about this somewhere on the net. I don't know if you would enjoy these
records Brian, these are as different from each other as possible... yet
still Sharp.
Well, I did enjoy these recordings and I relate totally to the comments you
made about the discs of Sharp you mention - except that I got to listen to
them about ten years later.

Later.  Benj


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Brian Olewnick <[e-mail]>
Subject: Bailey, Lucier, McPhee, Parmegiani
Date: 22 May 1998 11:39:50 -0400

Four recent acquisitions:

DEREK BAILEY        TAKES FAKES & DEAD SHE DANCES    INCUS

Ten solo performances from two dates in 1997 ranging from merely great
to astonishing. Nothing much I can say, except that if you've been
waiting to get into Bailey, this is a fine entry point. For long-time
fans, IMHO this is his finest solo effort, and that's saying a lot.
Early contender for record of the year.

ALVIN LUCIER        PANORAMA            LOVELY MUSIC

Lucier continues to straddle the line between music and science
experiment. Four pieces featuring trombonist Roland Dahinden and pianist
Hildegard Kleeb. One for trombone and two oscillators, where Dahinden
tries to play along closely with some low electronic drones. Another for
piano and positioned snare drums which resonate with various piano
frequencies (if you've ever been annoyed during live shows where the
snare drum buzzed off and on--and who hasn't?--you'll, um, appreciate
this piece). A beautiful work for piano with amplified "sonorous
vessels" placed on the strings. And one for trombone and piano, where
the score is a photo of a Swiss mountainscape; features awe-inspiring
tonal control by Dahinden. Good, _extremely_ minimal, music.

JOE MCPHEE        AS SERIOUS AS YOU LIFE        HATOLOGY

I first heard Joe in my high school auditorium (!) in 1971. Since then,
he's alternately fascinated and baffled me. I often find myself wishing
he'd stay true to his strong, Romantic side and do less dabbling in
somewhat derivative experimentalism. Here he does both, the latter
represented by a bland keyboard homage to Ra and Nancarrow and some
pointless kalimba-oriented drum machine work beneath an otherwise
beautiful rendition of 'The Man I Love'. Best track is a gorgeous
reading of Coltrane's 'After the Rain'. A mixed effort, but worth
hearing.

BERNARD PARMEGIANI    DE NATURA SONORUM        INA

Amazing electro-acoustic suite from 1975. Extraordinarily rich sounds
presented within a very natural, unforced sounding framework. Think of a
gentler, though equally inventive, Xenakis. Big tip o' the hat to Jon
Abbey for the recommendation. If anyone has other work by Parmegiani
they'd care to suggest, or other related music they'd like to cite,
please do. Annoys me that this has been around over 20 years and I'd
bypassed it entirely.

All for now,

Brian Olewnick (hoping this is less than 5K)

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Artur Nowak" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fred Frith about Tom Cora
Date: 22 May 1998 18:05:41 +0200

 > -----Original Message-----
 > From: [e-mail] [mailto:[e-mail]]
 > Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 1998 5:25 AM
 > To: [e-mail]
 > Subject: [e-mail] digest, Volume 4 #3
 >

   [...]

 > From: Fred Frith <[e-mail]>
 > Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 20:04:53 +0200
 > Subject: Re: [e-mail] digest, Volume 4 #2
 >
 > ** Message 2: **
 >
 > hi,
 > just to say - there are two more benefits and tributes to Tom Cora, one
 > on 20/05 at the Knitting Factory in New York, and the other at Vandoevre
 > (Nancy, France) on 23/05 at the Centre Culturel AndrΘ Malraux during the
 > Festival of New Music. (There already was one at The Geluid Festival at
 > the Vooruit, Gent, Belgium last week).  I hope some of you will be able
 > to attend, or tell friends who can..
 >
 > To correct a couple of small details - Tom was originally diagnosed with
 > skin cancer, and despite early preventive treatment, it spread into his
 > whole body.  When he died he had tumours in the brain, lungs, and
 > elsewhere (technically it was called Melanoma, familiar to anyone who
 > knows anything about AIDS for example, though this was not Tom's
 > problem).
 >
 > And speaking as someone who played with Tom shortly before his death, I
 > can't say I found his playing especially lacking in energy, in fact I
 > was shocked at how his frailty left him as soon as he got behind his
 > cello.  It was both humbling and inspiring ( and he played several more
 > concerts with Roof afterwards which from everything I've heard were
 > similarly intense).
 >
 > Finally, we are planning a box set tribute to Tom, and many contributors
 > have already provided material, this should be finished over the
 > Summer,  & I'll update this when I know definitely who will release it.
 > I hope that corresponds to your idea of a celebration - there's a lot to
 > celebrate!
 >
 > all the best
 >
 > Fred


Forwarded by:
       ____________________________________________________________________
       Artur Nowak ([e-mail])
       www.silesia.top.pl/~arno/emd/pl40/artists/f/frisell_bill/default.htm
       For MS Internet Explorer 4 only!



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Bruno Bissonnette" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Microtonal musicians
Date: 22 May 1998 09:22:57 PDT

Here's a question for all of you:  Who are the most interesting
musicians out there who use microtonality?  I've heard a bit of Joe
Maneri and LaMonte Young, and wouldn't mind knowing more about them, but
who else is there?  Whether they use just-intonation or another system,
I'm really curious about this stuff.

Bruno Bissonnette
Musician/Guitarist
Math Student, Sherbrooke University


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: JonAbbey2 <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re:  Parmegiani
Date: 22 May 1998 12:34:31 EDT


In a message dated 5/22/98 11:42:57 AM, [e-mail] wrote:

<<BERNARD PARMEGIANI    DE NATURA SONORUM        INA

Amazing electro-acoustic suite from 1975. Extraordinarily rich sounds
presented within a very natural, unforced sounding framework. Think of a
gentler, though equally inventive, Xenakis. Big tip o' the hat to Jon
Abbey for the recommendation. If anyone has other work by Parmegiani
they'd care to suggest, or other related music they'd like to cite,
please do. Annoys me that this has been around over 20 years and I'd
bypassed it entirely.>>

Thanks for the props, Brian. All the Parmegiani discs on INA-GRM are pretty
amazing but the next one to get is La Creation Du Monde. It's the only work of
his that I've heard that I consider in the same class as De Natura Sonorum.

Jon

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Parmegiani
Date: 22 May 1998 09:44:53 -0700


On Fri, 22 May 1998 12:34:31 EDT  JonAbbey2 wrote:
>
>
> In a message dated 5/22/98 11:42:57 AM, [e-mail] wrote:
>
> <<BERNARD PARMEGIANI    DE NATURA SONORUM        INA
>
> Amazing electro-acoustic suite from 1975. Extraordinarily rich sounds
> presented within a very natural, unforced sounding framework. Think of a
> gentler, though equally inventive, Xenakis. Big tip o' the hat to Jon
> Abbey for the recommendation. If anyone has other work by Parmegiani
> they'd care to suggest, or other related music they'd like to cite,
> please do. Annoys me that this has been around over 20 years and I'd
> bypassed it entirely.>>
>
> Thanks for the props, Brian. All the Parmegiani discs on INA-GRM are pretty
> amazing but the next one to get is La Creation Du Monde. It's the only work of
                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Any connection to Darius Milhaud's composition?

    Patrice.

> his that I've heard that I consider in the same class as De Natura Sonorum.
>
> Jon
>
> -
>


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joshua A Miller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: tenko recs
Date: 22 May 1998 10:31:09 -0700 (PDT)



On Tue, 19 May 1998, Matthew Colonnese wrote:

>
>   What else has
> Tenko done?  I really liked her duet album with Ikue Mori


she has an excellent record called slope with fred frith, tom cora, arto
lindsay, kramer, and some others. noisy rock-ish songs with a little bit
of marching band... it's on recrec, i think.

josh


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rob DeNunzio <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Microtonal musicians
Date: 22 May 1998 12:28:40 -0700

At 09:22 AM 5/22/98 PDT, Bruno Bissonnette wrote:
>Here's a question for all of you:  Who are the most interesting
>musicians out there who use microtonality?  I've heard a bit of Joe
>Maneri and LaMonte Young, and wouldn't mind knowing more about them, but
>who else is there?  Whether they use just-intonation or another system,
>I'm really curious about this stuff.
>
>Bruno Bissonnette
>Musician/Guitarist
>Math Student, Sherbrooke University
>

I recently got to listen to a group called the Catler Bros. that you might
be interested in, especially being a guitarist. The group is a
guitar/bass/drums trio who perform in just intonation, using fretted
(rescaled) and fretless guitars/basses. It's a shockingly funky/groovy
band, which I haven't seen much (in just intonation, that is). Interesting
stuff. There's a review and some sound-files at my website:

http://www.teleport.com/hifim

They also have information at their website, FreeNote records (can't
remember the URL, sorry). I'm curious to hear what other Zornies think -
anybody out there heard these guys?

Rob DeNunzio
Hi-Fi Mundo


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Eric C. Honour, Jr." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Circular breathing
Date: 22 May 1998 15:06:16 -0500


>Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 18:05:56 -0400
>From: "Mark Logan and Kathleen O'Grady" <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Victoriaville

>    Zorn/Patton/Mori was fantastic as well.  Zorn's sax playing was
>otherworldly and his five-minute-straight-circular-breathing was a joy
>to witness !!!

>
>bye
>mark


It's nice to see that Zorn and Evan Parker fans are just as discriminating
as fans of Kenny G.  I mean, I wouldn't want the fact that these guys can
circular breathe to be overlooked in any discussion of their playing.

BTW, yes I can and do circular breathe, so I'm not just blowing smoke here.
It's really not that difficult and is becoming just as much a standard
technique as flutter-tonguing.  I think it's only impressive if you haven't
figured out how to do it yet.

Concentrating on the music and ignoring the athletics,
Eric

--------------------------
Eric C. Honour, Jr.
Composer * Saxophonist * Graphic Designer
MMus (Saxophone Performance and Composition)
Northwestern University
[e-mail]
--------------------------
The United States has never lost a war in which mules were used.



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Brian Olewnick <[e-mail]>
Subject: Julie Tippetts--Sunset Glow
Date: 22 May 1998 16:14:49 -0400

(For those wondering, this is a beautiful record issued on the Utopia
Buli label in 1975, distributed by RCA, and includes folk like Elton
Dean, Marc Charig, Louis Moholo, Harry Miller and, of course, hubby
Keith performing Ms. Tippetts' songs).

It's probably been asked before, possibly by me, but does anyone know if
this is ever scheduled to make it to disc? My vinyl copy grows
statickier with each listen. For that matter, does anyone know of other
work by her in this vein? The liners for the 'Couple In Spirit' CD
mention a record called '1969', about which I know nothing further. I'm
pretty familiar with much of her free improv work but, for me, her
performances here and on Carla Bley's 'Tropic Appetites' (and when is
THAT going to be released to disc!?!?) stand out as extraordinary.

Thanks,

Brian Olewnick

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Circular breathing
Date: 22 May 1998 13:38:36 -0700


On Fri, 22 May 1998 15:06:16 -0500  "Eric C. Honour, Jr." wrote:
>
>
> >Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 18:05:56 -0400
> >From: "Mark Logan and Kathleen O'Grady" <[e-mail]>
> >Subject: Victoriaville
>
> >    Zorn/Patton/Mori was fantastic as well.  Zorn's sax playing was
> >otherworldly and his five-minute-straight-circular-breathing was a joy
> >to witness !!!
>
> It's nice to see that Zorn and Evan Parker fans are just as discriminating
> as fans of Kenny G.  I mean, I wouldn't want the fact that these guys can
> circular breathe to be overlooked in any discussion of their playing.
>
> BTW, yes I can and do circular breathe, so I'm not just blowing smoke here.
> It's really not that difficult and is becoming just as much a standard
> technique as flutter-tonguing.  I think it's only impressive if you haven't
> figured out how to do it yet.
>
> Concentrating on the music and ignoring the athletics,

Right, but Evan Parker does more than just keeping the air column uninterrupted
for few minutes. Circular breathing is an integral part of his way to playing
the soprano.

In the case of Zorn's solo, it was basically just that (a shrilling note held
for few minutes).

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Douglas Tapia)
Subject: Re: Circular breathing
Date: 22 May 1998 15:01:33 -0700

>>    Zorn/Patton/Mori was fantastic as well.  Zorn's sax playing was
>>otherworldly and his five-minute-straight-circular-breathing was a joy
>>to witness !!!
>
>>
>>bye
>>mark
>
>
>It's nice to see that Zorn and Evan Parker fans are just as discriminating
>as fans of Kenny G.  I mean, I wouldn't want the fact that these guys can
>circular breathe to be overlooked in any discussion of their playing.

Gosh, someone's bitter, eh?  I'm personally not impressed by circular
breathing either _UNLESS_ it serves a musical purpose, eg. forward motion
within an improvisition, building of tension, etc.  I don't gather from
context of the quote that the fasination was so much with the _technique_
of circular breathing so much as it's inclusion within Zorn's
"otherworldly" playing.

Does the fact that Zorn uses a particular technique weaken his stature as a
player in your estimation?  If not, why this fixation on an otherwise
inocent remark about a simple technique.  In western music there are many
techniques that have been so overused that they might be considered by some
to be trite, but they are just techniques, incapabale of being intrinsiclly
good or bad.

So again, we are left with the question of context.  And it is, after all,
context that defines the value of a musical statement, not the technique
used to get that statement across.  (I can play a bunch of Ornette "licks"
in no particular order and this does not mean that I play like Ornette)  By
the same token, things of value do not have to be shrowded in obscurity to
be meaningful.  Some of the most moving statements have been made in the
language of the people.  If this means that Zorn uses a technique more
closely associated with that "G" person to pull in the last two rows of the
audience who's minds might be wandering, more power to him.

>BTW, yes I can and do circular breathe, so I'm not just blowing smoke here.

This sounds like the standard academic position that "if I can do it, it
must not be really that impressive."

>It's really not that difficult and is becoming just as much a standard
>technique as flutter-tonguing.  I think it's only impressive if you haven't
>figured out how to do it yet.

Or perhaps, if you have something of value to say using said technique.
>
>Concentrating on the music and ignoring the athletics,
>Eric
>
But the athletics serve a purpose.  (Bird wouldn't be Bird and Trane
wouldn't be Trane without them)  The trick is to transend the pedestrian
conception of  "isolated" technical mastery and put all your various bags
'o trick to work in service of the music.

Respectfully,

-Doug



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Caleb Deupree)
Subject: Re: Microtonal musicians
Date: 22 May 1998 17:27:50 -0400

>>>>> "Bruno" == Bruno Bissonnette <[e-mail]> writes:

    Bruno> Here's a question for all of you: Who are the most
    Bruno> interesting musicians out there who use microtonality?
    Bruno> I've heard a bit of Joe Maneri and LaMonte Young, and
    Bruno> wouldn't mind knowing more about them, but who else is
    Bruno> there?  Whether they use just-intonation or another system,
    Bruno> I'm really curious about this stuff.

Recently I picked up Mamoru Fujieda's Patterns of Plants, on Tzadik
(Hey! a real Zorn connection!).  This is a collection of short pieces
for a variety of instruments, including kotos, harpsichords, viola da
gamba, etc. in a variety of tunings, including Pythagorean, just
intonation, etc.  The first track sounds *very* out of tune, but after
a few more tracks (remember, they're mostly short) it becomes
positively tranquil.

I should also note that I'm not much of a harpsichord (or
medieval/renaissance/baroque) music fan, but this work is sufficiently
unusual to overcome such resistances.  I'd also recommend Fujeida's
other Tzadik album, The Night Chant, which combines traditional
Japanese instruments with the computer to create a unique sound
sculptural work.

More info on both at the Tzadik web site.


---
Caleb T. Deupree
;; Opinions...  funny thing about opinions, they can change.

Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers.
(Pablo Picasso)


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Eric C. Honour, Jr." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Circular Breathing
Date: 22 May 1998 17:57:19 -0500

>Right, but Evan Parker does more than just keeping the air column
>uninterrupted
>for few minutes. Circular breathing is an integral part of his way to playing
>the soprano.
>
>In the case of Zorn's solo, it was basically just that (a shrilling note held
>for few minutes).
>
>    Patrice.
>
>- -
>Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 15:01:33 -0700
>From: [e-mail] (Douglas Tapia)
>Subject: Re: Circular breathing
>

>Gosh, someone's bitter, eh?  I'm personally not impressed by circular
>breathing either _UNLESS_ it serves a musical purpose, eg. forward motion
>within an improvisition, building of tension, etc.  I don't gather from
>context of the quote that the fasination was so much with the _technique_
>of circular breathing so much as it's inclusion within Zorn's
>"otherworldly" playing.
>

See now, that's exactly what I did NOT get from the context of the original
post (or of the post that talked about Parker's circular breathing last
week).  Instead of saying something along the lines of "man, the way [he]
circular-breathed was incredible:  it just kept building the tension and
intensity," the posts just said "wow, and they circular breathed."
Patrice's comment above says more about what Parker's up to.  Not just that
he can circular breathe but that he uses it in some musical fashion.

>Does the fact that Zorn uses a particular technique weaken his stature as a
>player in your estimation?  If not, why this fixation on an otherwise
>inocent remark about a simple technique.

God, no.  I love his playing.  The "fixation" reflects the fact that I find
it awfully fatuous to admire the use of one particular extended technique
just as a technique.  If someone uses a technique particularly musically,
that's completely a different story.  My point was that Kenny G fans are
renowned for going crazy when he circular breathes.  Not because of what
he's playing, but because he can do this cool trick.  The posts I read here
seemed to be saying the same thing.  I find that annoying because I think
it gets away from what's really important (to me) -- the music.

In western music there are many
>techniques that have been so overused that they might be considered by some
>to be trite, but they are just techniques, incapabale of being intrinsiclly
>good or bad.
>
>So again, we are left with the question of context.  And it is, after all,
>context that defines the value of a musical statement[snip]

I agree and that was my point.  It's not that I consider circular breathing
to be trite, but it IS now standard.  Let's get away from being amazed that
people can do it and get on to an appreciation of what they're doing with
it.

>>BTW, yes I can and do circular breathe, so I'm not just blowing smoke here.
>
>This sounds like the standard academic position that "if I can do it, it
>must not be really that impressive."

Interesting take on academics.  It's more saying that I can do it and thus
I know from personal experience what is involved in it.  Based on that
experience, I do not find the technique itself impressive.  What is being
said musically is much more important.  THAT'S what I would call the
"standard academic position."

>Or perhaps, if you have something of value to say using said technique.

Exactly.

>>
>>Concentrating on the music and ignoring the athletics,
>>Eric
>>
>But the athletics serve a purpose.  (Bird wouldn't be Bird and Trane
>wouldn't be Trane without them)  The trick is to transend the pedestrian
>conception of  "isolated" technical mastery and put all your various bags
>'o trick to work in service of the music.

I agree and I play very athletic music myself.  But the point is the MUSIC.
The fact that Bird and Trane could both do amazing things on their horns in
terms of technique pales beside the music they made with that technique.

Eric

--------------------------
Eric C. Honour, Jr.
Composer * Saxophonist * Graphic Designer
MMus (Saxophone Performance and Composition)
Northwestern University
[e-mail]
--------------------------
The United States has never lost a war in which mules were used.



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: D Royko <[e-mail]>
Subject: Masada/Bar Kokhba questions
Date: 22 May 1998 19:44:32 EDT

I posted this a few days ago, and I don't think it ever made it. If it did, I
apologize for the repeat.

I'm new to the list (though not so new to JZ's music), so these questions were
possibly covered some time ago, and if so, sorry for the repitition.

Four questions:

1- I purchased Bar Kokhba immediately upon its release. Soon after, I read (I
believe in rmb) that a second version was issued that differed in one track.
Is this accurate, and if so, what exactly is the difference? And, is there any
way to tell the difference (visually) between the two versions of the set?

2- Is the version of "Bikkurim" that appears on the various artists anthology
"Festival of Lights" (Six Degrees/Island) the same version that appears on Bar
Kokhba, or is it a different version/take?

3- Similar question with "Ziphim" from the "Klezmer '93" album (Knitting
Factory): Is this a live version unique to that CD (if so, how is it?), or is
it a track pulled from Masada "3" on DIW?

4- I understand that a CD called "Zattere Alle Deriva" on the More Music
(Italy) label contains an alternate take of (Masada #3's) "Ziphim". Is this
accurate? If so, how is this take, and how might one get a copy of this disc?
What else is on the disc?

Thanks,

Dave Royko

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: leon lee <[e-mail]>
Subject: re: Yo Miles
Date: 22 May 1998 11:36:42 -0700 (PDT)

what was said:


Hi all,

I have just updated the Henry Kaiser website with the liner notes from the
forthcoming YO MILES!, an album of Miles Davis interpretations by Henry
and Wadada Leo Smith. Included in the notes is "Procession of the Great
Ancestry," a beautiful piece of poetry by Mr. Smith, and a great essay
by Enrico Merlin, noted Davis authority.

is this YO MILES! the same project that is the 70's miles tribute w/ nels
cline, kaiser, rova sax 4, leo smith etc etc.  is the poetry by l.smith or
is it h.smith, his wife who is a poet?  if it is, when it is available. if
not, what is the rumored release that i'm talking about?  anyone?

queries:
what is Human Feel up to?  what was the audience reception of Milford
Graves opening for Sonic Youth?  is there pt.2 of panthalassa w/ drum/bass
remixes?  is laswell planning on doing more bob marley dubs?  so many
questions...  also, can anyone refer me to some serevino gazelloni?  or
any other flute recordings, readings, transcriptions etc etc.

thanks
leon

listening to 'interboogieology' -- what about this amrta contreras?  who
is she?



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Masada/Bar Kokhba questions
Date: 22 May 1998 17:34:08 -0700


    Hi Dave,

On Fri, 22 May 1998 19:44:32 EDT  D Royko wrote:
>
> I posted this a few days ago, and I don't think it ever made it. If it did, I
> apologize for the repeat.
>
> I'm new to the list (though not so new to JZ's music), so these questions were
> possibly covered some time ago, and if so, sorry for the repitition.
>
> Four questions:
>
> 1- I purchased Bar Kokhba immediately upon its release. Soon after, I read (I
> believe in rmb) that a second version was issued that differed in one track.
> Is this accurate, and if so, what exactly is the difference? And, is there any
> way to tell the difference (visually) between the two versions of the set?

We would have to download the files on a computer drive and compare them :-).

> 2- Is the version of "Bikkurim" that appears on the various artists anthology
> "Festival of Lights" (Six Degrees/Island) the same version that appears on Bar
> Kokhba, or is it a different version/take?
>
> 3- Similar question with "Ziphim" from the "Klezmer '93" album (Knitting
> Factory): Is this a live version unique to that CD (if so, how is it?), or is
> it a track pulled from Masada "3" on DIW?

It can't be the same because KLEZMER 1993 was released in 1993 and GIMEL was
recorded in 1994. Also, one version is 7:06 minutes long, and the one GIMEL
is 9:17.

> 4- I understand that a CD called "Zattere Alle Deriva" on the More Music
> (Italy) label contains an alternate take of (Masada #3's) "Ziphim". Is this
> accurate? If so, how is this take, and how might one get a copy of this disc?
> What else is on the disc?


195 - ZATTERE ALLA DERIVA: various artists

  This record features John Zorn & Masada, Die Knoedel, Iva Bittova, Lingua
  Franca & Val Resia Ensemble, Quartetto Vocale Giovanna Marini, Pascal
  Comelade & Bel Canto Orquestra, Phil Minton & Veryan Weston, Fred Frith &
  Bob Ostertag, B-Shops for the Poor, Rale, Makam, Amy Denio, Boris Kovac &
  Ritual Nova Ensemble.

  John Zorn plays on one track with Masada:

    2/ Abidan                                   (Zorn)                   6:51

    Recorded by Jim Anderson at Power Station, New York City on June 22, 1994

  John Zorn: alto; Joey Baron: drums; Greg Cohen: bass; Dave Douglas: trumpet.

    1995 - More Music (Italy), MOMus 003 (CD)

  Note: the Masada track is an outtake from a Masada studio session (it was a
  second take previously unreleased).


    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Yo Miles
Date: 23 May 1998 02:13:20 -0400

leon lee wrote:

> is this YO MILES! the same project that is the 70's miles tribute w/ nels
> cline, kaiser, rova sax 4, leo smith etc etc.

Yes.  Due out July or later on Shanachie, 2 CD.

> what is Human Feel up to?

Not much... all of the members are keeping so busy with other projects that HF
is on a back burner right now...

>  what was the audience reception of Milford
> Graves opening for Sonic Youth?

Doesn't happen until June 8.  I'll be seeing Milford tonight in a quartet with
Charles Gayle, Kidd Jordan and William Parker... chewy!

>  is there pt.2 of panthalassa w/ drum/bass
> remixes?

The drum'n'bass remixes may not be commerically available, or they may be
pressed as a vinyl only piece to be added to LP pressings of Panthalassa being
imported from England.  I'll keep you posted.  There are four remix tracks
planned.

>  is laswell planning on doing more bob marley dubs?

Don't know, but if Panthalassa sells well Columbia plans to let Bill play
around with the Herbie Hancock and Carlos Santana archives...

Steve Smith
[e-mail]


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Artur Nowak" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Circular breathing
Date: 23 May 1998 09:57:50 +0200

 > In the case of Zorn's solo, it was basically just that (a
 > shrilling note held for few minutes).

So, Zorn likes to impress people! Pure technique seems to be pretty
important for him.

     ______________________________________________________________________
     Artur Nowak ([e-mail]) (spam filter in use)
     www.silesia.top.pl/~arno/emd/pl40/artists/f/frisell_bill/default.htm
     For MS Internet Explorer 4 only!



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Cappy D'Angelo" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Dave Douglas
Date: 23 May 1998 11:05:12 -0700 (PDT)

Does anyone know how to get info on Dave Douglas tour dates? Trying
to confirm rumours of a June 4 show in Vancouver...

Cappy D'Angelo
Student at Law - Intellectual Property
Dabbler in Recording - Sonic Solutions Digital Editing and Mastering
Twanger of Guitar & Blower of Eb Horns of Alto & Bari Persuasion
Victoria, B.C., CANADA








-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Chris Genzel)
Subject: serial music & why Zorn
Date: 24 May 1998 22:50:53 +0200


 Hi all,

 Sorry that this comes in so late, but I was somewhat behind with reading all
 the digests.
 Just an afterthought to two recent discussions:

 1) The article on serial music invented by the Nazis:

  I guess this expands on an idea William S. Burroughs had, see "The Western
  Lands" for reference:

   "Musical intelligence. Agent attends a concert and receives his instructions."

 2) The question of why we like the music we hear:

   I don't really care why I like the stuff I like. I just like it, and I'm
   feeling very comfortable with this. The "why"s and "how"s are not only
   different from person to person, but also for me from piece to piece.
   Question: do you like watching the stars? why?

 Kind regards,
 - Chris.

 ---------------------------------------------
 *    Chris Genzel --- [e-mail]    *
 * Homepage & Herbie Hancock discography at: *
 *    http://home.t-online.de/home/stamil/   *
 ---------------------------------------------


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: CuneiWay <[e-mail]>
Subject: re: Julie Tippetts
Date: 24 May 1998 20:05:15 EDT

Brian Olewnick <[e-mail]> wrote:

>Subject: Julie Tippetts--Sunset Glow

>It's probably been asked before, possibly by me, but does anyone know if
>this is ever scheduled to make it to disc?

I think it's owned by RCA, now BMG, & it's doubtful that they will issue it.
It *IS* a great album. Maybe I should ask Julie who owns it.

>Carla Bley's 'Tropic Appetites' (and when is
>THAT going to be released to disc!?!?) stand out as extraordinary.

This I unfortunately have the answer for; I spoke to Carla's assistant about
the possibility of reissuing this project & other old o/p Watt releases about
18 - 24 months ago, & was basically told that they are not really interested
in having anyone else other than ECM do it [even though we can all die of old
age before THAT will happen].

Steve
Cuneiform Records

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Christopher Hamilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: serial music & why Zorn
Date: 24 May 1998 20:31:02 -0400 (EDT)



On Sun, 24 May 1998, Chris Genzel wrote:

>    I don't really care why I like the stuff I like. I just like it, and I'm
>    feeling very comfortable with this. The "why"s and "how"s are not only
>    different from person to person, but also for me from piece to piece.
>    Question: do you like watching the stars? why?

Trying to answer this question might well teach you something important
about yourself or the stars or both.  I'm regularly surprised by the
anti-intellectualism adopted by so many people when it comes to music.

Chris Hamilton



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Stefan Verstraeten <[e-mail]>
Subject: information about brandon ross 'the overflow'
Date: 25 May 1998 08:36:32 +0200

Dear Zornheads,

A few days ago, I was listening to some old Live at the KF -cd's, and
one track really knocked me out. It was a track called 'the ugly waiter'
and was performed by Brandon Ross' the overflow (consisting of Ross
himself on guitar, Gibbs on bass and Bowne on drums).

Anyway, My question was: does someone know if this band put out some
cd's and on what label....

Thank you very much.....
--
Stefan Verstraeten
Licentiaat Rechten & MBA
Mandaat - assistent Rechten
Faculteit T.E.W. - H.I.
U.F.S.I.A. - Universiteit Antwerpen
Bureau B - 421
Prinsstraat 13
B - 2000 Antwerpen
Belgium (Europe)
TEL.:    [phone]
FAX :    [phone]
GSM :    [phone]
[e-mail]
http://www.ufsia.ac.be

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tom Pratt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: information about brandon ross 'the overflow'
Date: 25 May 1998 02:20:35 -0400

Stefan Verstraeten wrote:
>
> Dear Zornheads,
>
> A few days ago, I was listening to some old Live at the KF -cd's, and
> one track really knocked me out. It was a track called 'the ugly waiter'
> and was performed by Brandon Ross' the overflow (consisting of Ross
> himself on guitar, Gibbs on bass and Bowne on drums).
>
> Anyway, My question was: does someone know if this band put out some
> cd's and on what label....
>
> Thank you very much.....

The Overflow recorded an album in '89 or '90, but it remains unreleased.
They sort of evolved into a new and as of yet unrecorded group, Harriet
Tubman, with JT Lewis instead of Dougie Bowne (who I think is still not
well).

                -Tom Pratt

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Snap" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: serial music & why Zorn
Date: 26 May 1998 18:14:02 -0400


>On Sun, 24 May 1998, Chris Genzel wrote:
>
>>    I don't really care why I like the stuff I like. I just like it, and
I'm
>>    feeling very comfortable with this. The "why"s and "how"s are not only
>>    different from person to person, but also for me from piece to piece.
>>    Question: do you like watching the stars? why?


And on that very same day Mr. Hamilton mordantly wrote:

>    Trying to answer this question might well teach you something important
>about yourself or the stars or both.  I'm regularly surprised by the
>anti-intellectualism adopted by so many people when it comes to music.

    And I myself am not at all surprised by the unerring elitism and
two-dimensional attempts at aesthetic erudition adopted by those on this
list who have the unmitigated propensity to objectify and thus coronate
their personal system of valuing a medium of art which is wholly palatial,
by that I mean pertinent to one's own tastes, and even at times to one's own
causality - a sequence of events and fixations in life may lead up to one's
preference of a genre over another; an observation as demanded, I know, but
entirely arbitrary when all that really might matter to a person is
gastro-intestinal bliss.
    So, are we expected to scribble out an exhaustive dissertation on peach
cobbler prior to shoving the spoon into our mouths? Hmm? (Perhaps it's the
color in relation to the granular state which easily adheres to the
silverware, our mouths delighting in the taboo of segregating the clustery
substance from its envoy) Because some of us here are not entirely concerned
with polemics as much as a nice sculpture of sound, the likes of whose aural
properties may merely do us cathartic good, or may even, yes, lean us toward
introspection. But that, as Chris Genzel so honestly put, may vary from
piece to piece.
    That you failed to extract from what he had said about his attraction to
Zorn's recordings shows that your attention is channeled toward some red
herring of a demagogic ideal - or ideals - with which some of us may be
unaware (they say age is requisite to wisdom) and therefore unconcerned. For
Chris Genzel HAS just told us why he likes Zorn's music: FOR
NON-INTELLECTUAL REASONS. [In tandem with some of his personality traits,
perhaps, albeit intrinsically, the Vedantic method of defrocking things like
"science" and "reason"(which has been stood upon its head for quite some
time now) clearly his way of dispensing with demons of sophistry and
possibly even enriching his listening pleasure.]
    If that doesn't seem like a sufficient reason to keep the headphones on,
then one probably doesn't exist. Sure, I could tell you why I am drawn to a
particular recording and tangentally summon causal ramifications by giving
my Psyche an autopsy or two, but I choose to more often than not just let
Orpheus twang away at his fucking lyre. Whether I am of Thracian descent as
he was, or that my father-in-law's brand-name company is responsible for his
instrument matters not to us sonic sybarites.
    The last thing we need is a musical Rush Limbaugh (who is a big fat
idiot) flinging his corpulence that way and this, parading down his
rose-strewn path of righteousness, kicking all thorns onto those who see the
path not as an end in itself, but as a means toward some nectar of sound.
    Now, whether your remark about Chris Gunzel's refusal to extrapolate the
behavior of his tympanic membranes was intentionally supercillious or just
impulsively thought up and typed in casual, elbow-in-the-side amiability
determines whether this obliquy of mine is likewise hawkish or aloof.

    Suo,
    Snap (who just heard a certain raga exude what he was told was intended
to be regret . . . )





-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Snap" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Microtonal musicians
Date: 26 May 1998 18:19:26 -0400



Bruno Bossonnette wrote:


>Here's a question for all of you:  Who are the most interesting
>musicians out there who use microtonality?  I've heard a bit of Joe
>Maneri and LaMonte Young, and wouldn't mind knowing more about them, but
>who else is there?  Whether they use just-intonation or another system,
>I'm really curious about this stuff.

    For a generous listing of microtonal - or xenharmonic - music, mosey on
over to ftp://ella.mills.edu/ccm/tuning/papers/discs.html (and good luck
prioritizing your curiosities).

    P.S.: Yesterday I picked up Virgil Moorefield's "The Temperature in Hell
is Over Three-Thousand Degrees" (microtonal and on Tzadik). Quite good.

    P.P.S.: Any gamelan music from Indonesia, which antedates all Western
frolickings with xenharmonica by who-knows-how-many years, is by virtue
microtonal, and arguably the progenitrix for many an overtly curious and
aesthetically petulant composer, i.e., Harry Partch, Lou Harrison, Wendy
Carlos, Larry Polansky. 43-notes per octave or thereabouts. While
entertaining in its own right, the gamelan output wouldn't be what I'd call
an ideal launchpad for those interested, at least not as much as something
by Subotnick, Darreg, Ives, Penderecki,  Dumitrescu, and myriad others of
their ilk, who all in different ways suggest what microtonality means in a
Western context, should that be what your seeking. A majority of  all
"musique concrete" and "electro-acoustic" efforts are microtonal,
conscientiously or un-.
        My personal favorites're:
        Lou Harrison: "Lo Koro Sutro".
        Harry Partch: "Castor and Pollux", "The Bewitched" "And on the
Seventh(")__gosh, anything!
        George Crumb: "Black Angels", "Ancient Voices of Children", "Idyll
of the Misbegotten".
        Jeffrey Harrington: "Acid Bach Suite", "Oneiroscope".

P.P.P.S.: My ultimately favorite KIND of microtonal music is noise. O the
therapeutic sound of two 81/2 by 11 sheets of paper crumbling together
behind the castrato of a Hewlett-Packard 5LX-tra paper jam running the
entire solfeggio (and more) into aural esoterica to which only dogs' and
frogs' ears be properly tuned, ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh . . .
        Death to the Fret!!










-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Mans Engman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: looking for...
Date: 26 May 1998 03:13:29 +0200

[re: Tom Pratt looking for CDs]

_Impropositions_ and _Live at Fasching_ are both in stock at
Skivhugget (www.skivhugget.se). They'll probably ship anywhere
in this galaxy if you ask them nicely and pay the shipping.

Talking about Mats Gustafsson, one of my favourite CDs right now
is _Aaly Trio+Ken Vandermark: Hidden in the stomach_ (SHCD149).
The lineup is Mats on tenor & bari sax, Ken on tenor sax and
soprano & bass clarinet, Peter Janson on double bass, and Kjell
Nordeson on drums. My terminology isn't the best, but I'd describe
this as free jazz with various improvised-instrument-noise parts.
Sometimes it's slow and melancholic, but often very intense and
mind-blowing. IMHO they play truly great; there's an awful lot of
interaction, emotion, noise, and hyper-active drumming. :-)

This is a Silkheart release, and as some of you might know
already (?), they have a web site at www.silkheart.se.

/Mans

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Jason J. Tar" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Filament Live.
Date: 25 May 1998 21:34:18 -0400

www.bentcrayon.com put up a MP3 of the recent Filament [Otomo
Yoshihide/Sachiko M] live show in Cleveland.  It's about 23 minutes long,
and probably worth downloading if you're interested.  (I have yet to hear
it, but having witnessed the show I can attest to how good it was.  The
audio might lack without the added excitement of their wonderful playing,
but should still be interesting to hear.)

JJTar

---
Peace Hugs and Unity            Jason J. Tar
        W.    W.    J.    D?
                  (What would Jason Do?)
      http://pilot.msu.edu/user/tarjason

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Christopher Hamilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: serial music & why Zorn
Date: 25 May 1998 22:16:58 -0400 (EDT)



On Tue, 26 May 1998, Snap wrote:

[a pretty funny parody of pretentious jargon]

>     Now, whether your remark about Chris Gunzel's refusal to extrapolate the
> behavior of his tympanic membranes was intentionally supercillious or just
> impulsively thought up and typed in casual, elbow-in-the-side amiability
> determines whether this obliquy of mine is likewise hawkish or aloof.

After making sure I knew what 'supercilious' meant, neither.  At worst, my
intentions were merely a bit pedantic.  Chris Gunzel seemed to be saying
that discussion of the whys and hows of music appreciation was worthless.
Others have said similar things on this list in the past.  I find such
discussion both enjoyable and useful.  I don't mind if others aren't
interested in that sort of discussion, but it surprises me when they feel
the need to attack it.  Chris's attack was, of course, very gentle and
good-humored, and I'm sorry if the style of my post suggested to him,
Snap, or anyone else that I was offended, hostile, or supercilious.

Chris Hamilton


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Charles Gillett" <[e-mail]>
Subject: everything is as good as everything else
Date: 26 May 1998 00:58:14 +0000

On Tue, 26 May 1998 18:14:02 -0400, "Snap" wrote:
> Chris Hamilton wrote:
> >    Trying to answer this question might well teach you something important
> >about yourself or the stars or both.  I'm regularly surprised by the
> >anti-intellectualism adopted by so many people when it comes to music.
>
>     And I myself am not at all surprised by the unerring elitism and
> two-dimensional attempts at aesthetic erudition adopted by those on this
> list who have the unmitigated propensity to objectify and thus coronate
> their personal system of valuing a medium of art which is wholly palatial,
> by that I mean pertinent to one's own tastes,
[etc.]
>     The last thing we need is a musical Rush Limbaugh (who is a big fat
> idiot) flinging his corpulence that way and this, parading down his
> rose-strewn path of righteousness, kicking all thorns onto those who see the
> path not as an end in itself, but as a means toward some nectar of sound.

   I believe Mr. Hamilton was just saying that thinking about why you
like what you like might lead toward a better understanding of who you
are.  I don't think he was telling us that there is a true and right
way to understand and enjoy music.  The point isn't to answer the
question, it's to *try* to answer the question.

   I'd be surprised if you actually think that it isn't worth doing,
that we should wander through life without ever asking "Why?"  And I
don't see how asking yourself "why" has anything to do with elitism
or musical fascism.  If you share the results of your introspection,
I see it as a valuable insight into another point of view; if you
share the results of your introspection and tell me that it's the
only right way to be, then I call you a jerk, but I don't think Mr.
Hamilton was doing this or encouraging this.

   The problem, of course, is that the various aesthetic issues
which are debated at a low level here and on every other list I get
have been wrestled with for a couple thousand years with precious
little advancement.  If you got a group of non-musicians together
and told them to play Beethoven's 5th, the only people who wouldn't
think it was horrid would be a) people who know nothing about the
piece and b) people who think it's all groovy, man, just do what you
feel.  Now, maybe what these non-musicians came up with would be
interesting and fun to listen to, but it wouldn't be Beethoven's
5th--though I wouldn't be surprised if someone argued that it was.
People seem to like to do that sort of thing (witness the argument
on the Robyn Hitchcock list, of all places, over whether D-sharp
is actually the same as E-flat).

   What does that mean?  It seems like the big issue is whether
or not you can take a rather absurd example like mine and develop
it into a coherent and universal aesthetic, and it seems like the
answer is no.  Why do we talk about it?  Hell if I know.  This
kind of talk puts me in a foul mood.  Let's just blow up the planet
and be done with it.  Rap isn't music, Derek Bailey is a faker, and
Bill Laswell has destroyed jazz for an entire generation.


-- Charles

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Kronos in the Katmandu box
Date: 26 May 1998 12:47:09 -0300

"Pieces of Africa" (Nonesuch) is perhaps one the most inspired detour
yet for the Kronos.
The album is neatly framed by buoyant pieces by Zimbabwe musician
Dumisani Masaire. Foday Muso Suso's "Tilliboyo" balances Suso's own kora
playing with pizzicato responses from the quartet. Sudanese Hamza El
Din's passionate "Escalay" is -in my opinion- the album's centerpiece;
though tragic, this song will knock you out.
If you want to try nice string playing of African tunes, check this out
and don't miss it.

-Hugo, from Argentina

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Masada in Argentina
Date: 26 May 1998 14:40:59 -0300

This excerpt was taken from a local newspaper (Clarin) on May 20th, last
week.

New edition of "Experimenta '98".
Experimental and avant artists will play in Argentina from June to
December '98, as follows.

JUNE 24, 25 & 26
Alvin Lucier, Ron Kuivila and Nic Collins

JULY 10,11 & 12
Jin Hi Kim and Joseph Celli

AUGUST 13,14 & 15
Palinckx (from Holland)- Tony Buck and 15 musicians who will improvise
conducted by Butch Morris

SEPTEMBER 11,12 & 13
Lee Ranaldo, William Hooker and Leah Singer

OCTOBER
Mark Dresser, Bob Ostertag and Eugene Chadbourne- Guy Klusevsek

NOVEMBER
Dr. Nerve, Earle Brown and Michael Schell
Tato Taborda, Chico Mello and Tim Rescala (Brazil)

DECEMBER 11,12 & 13
John Zorn Masada (w/Baron, Zorn, Cohen & Douglas)- Fred Frith Guitar
Quartet- John Sandborn

From Argentina:J. Casalla, D. Bolotin, A. Teran, M. Iannaccone (Sring
Quartet)- Adriana de los Santos (piano)- Jorge Sad & Ensemble.

Incidentally, Buenos Aires is not New York City so it will be amazing to
listen to all these musicians, for the first time ever in many cases.

And Masada, you know...

(very excited)-Hugo, from Argentina




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Recent Goodies
Date: 26 May 1998 15:06:00 UT

Okay, I been away for a week, but I saw Caleb's questioning of Marclay's
Records.  I'd say, yeah, it's definitely a historical collection, some of which
is interesting, and some which sort of drags, but if you liked Black Stucco or
the last piece or, um, Night Music, then you'd probably like Marclay's release
on ReR, which I forget the title of.  There he dedicates each track to a
particular artist and uses only recordings of that artist.  There's your
plunderphonics.  It's next on my to get list, but I've heard "Maria Callas" and
it's excellent.  Plus, I dig Marclay as the master phono-blaster, and so maybe
I'm biased.  In any case, I'd go there.

A fellow plunderphile,
PeterR

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Jeff Schuth" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: serial music & why Zorn
Date: 26 May 1998 13:56:00 PDT



>>
>    And I myself am not at all surprised by the unerring elitism and
>two-dimensional attempts at aesthetic erudition adopted by those on
this
>list who have the unmitigated propensity to objectify and thus coronate
>their personal system of valuing a medium of art which is wholly
palatial,
>by that I mean pertinent to one's own tastes, and even at times to
one's own
>causality - a sequence of events and fixations in life may lead up to
one's
>preference of a genre over another; an observation as demanded, I know,
but
>entirely arbitrary when all that really might matter to a person is
>gastro-intestinal bliss.
>    Just who the hell do you think your kidding?  Do you always sit and
write an informal response with a thesaurus?  I mean, your not talking
above my level or anything, but the language is not fluent.  Besides, if
you were really that naturally efficient in English, shouldn't your
grammar be perfect?


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Chris Genzel)
Subject: Feeling = "Anti-Intellectualism"?
Date: 26 May 1998 22:57:11 +0200


 On Sun, 24 May 1998, I wrote:

>>    I don't really care why I like the stuff I like. I just like it, and I'm
>>    feeling very comfortable with this. The "why"s and "how"s are not only
>>    different from person to person, but also for me from piece to piece.
>>    Question: do you like watching the stars? why?

 Mr. Hamilton answered:

>    Trying to answer this question might well teach you something important
> about yourself or the stars or both.

 What possible important information could you get by just looking up to the
 sky and watching the stars, getting lost in thoughts and appreciating the
 beauty of a night sky?

> I'm regularly surprised by the
> anti-intellectualism adopted by so many people when it comes to music.

 Actually, my friends would laugh at the idea of me being
 anti- or non-intellectualistic. :)

 There are two ways of enjoying music: on a intellectual level or on a, say,
 visceral one. The first one has to do with analyzing, the second one with
 feeling. Now tell me, how can you appreciate a ballad when saying "ah, there
 are A chords followed by D chords" etc. instead of feeling the melancholy of
 these chords? I won't say you shouldn't analyze music. I often do it myself,
 but I do it to see what's there in a track, how it works, and not to figure
 out why or why not I like it. I like something just because of it.

 May I give you an example of why I can't apply certain characteristics
 (reasons) to music based on which I like or dislike something. One of my
 recent purchases was Ground-Zero's "Revolutionary Pekinese Opera" (thanks to
 the person on the list who recommended GZ!). I really love this record. If
 I'd be asked what exactly is so great about it, I'd say it's so chaotic,
 noisy and full of manic energy that I feel like being high. On the other
 hand there are the Y.Eye tracks on "Naked City", which ... well, I don't
 really dislike them, but I also wouldn't mind if they were missing. And why?
 Because I find them too chaotic and noisy, and Eye's manic energy is some-
 times getting on my nerves. You see, I can name the same reasons for liking
 and for disliking something. The truth is that Ground-Zero feels right for
 me and the Eye tracks don't. This may be (and certainly is) completely
 different for other people, but that's the whole point.

 And snap wrote to Mr. Hamilton:

>     That you failed to extract from what he had said about his attraction to
> Zorn's recordings shows that your attention is channeled toward some red
> herring of a demagogic ideal - or ideals - with which some of us may be
> unaware (they say age is requisite to wisdom) and therefore unconcerned. For
> Chris Genzel HAS just told us why he likes Zorn's music: FOR
> NON-INTELLECTUAL REASONS. [In tandem with some of his personality traits,
> perhaps, albeit intrinsically, the Vedantic method of defrocking things like
> "science" and "reason"(which has been stood upon its head for quite some
> time now) clearly his way of dispensing with demons of sophistry and
> possibly even enriching his listening pleasure.]

 I guess that this adds to my listening pleasure, because I can surrender to
 the flow of the piece, get lost in its sounds, and I often get a good idea of
 what the musicians/composer wanted to express. Actually, more often than not,
 this leads me to liking most music in one way or another.

 Kind regards,
 - Chris.

 ---------------------------------------------
 *    Chris Genzel --- [e-mail]    *
 * Homepage & Herbie Hancock Discography at: *
 *    http://home.t-online.de/home/stamil/   *
 ---------------------------------------------


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Snap" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: serial music & why Zorn
Date: 27 May 1998 18:48:45 -0400


Jeff Shuth wrote:


>
>>>
>>    And I myself am not at all surprised by the unerring elitism and
>>two-dimensional attempts at aesthetic erudition adopted by those on
>this
>>list who have the unmitigated propensity to objectify and thus coronate
>>their personal system of valuing a medium of art which is wholly
>palatial,
>>by that I mean pertinent to one's own tastes, and even at times to
>one's own
>>causality - a sequence of events and fixations in life may lead up to
>one's
>>preference of a genre over another; an observation as demanded, I know,
>but
>>entirely arbitrary when all that really might matter to a person is
>>gastro-intestinal bliss.
>>    Just who the hell do you think your kidding?  Do you always sit and
>write an informal response with a thesaurus?  I mean, your not talking
>above my level or anything, but the language is not fluent.  Besides, if
>you were really that naturally efficient in English, shouldn't your
>grammar be perfect?
>
    First of all, I don't even own a thesaurus. Secondly, my grandiloquence
(ahem - I'm sorry, how about "overtly wordy writing or speaking") is a way
of cramming as much information into as brief a space as possible. Why's
everything got to be so simple? Verbosity is like an inside-joke or a
musician's homogeneous dialect based upon preconceptions, much like Zorn's
"The Classic Guide to Strategy". Have you considered yet that my scattergun
approach to words was a deliberate lampooning of what seems to creep its way
onto this list quite often?
    Epistolary vindications aside, I do feel comfortable knowing that I
never confuse "your" (possessive determiner) with "you're" (contraction). So
much for mellifluity.

You're pal,
Snap




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Recent Goodies
Date: 26 May 1998 15:06:00 UT

Okay, I been away for a week, but I saw Caleb's questioning of Marclay's
Records.  I'd say, yeah, it's definitely a historical collection, some of which
is interesting, and some which sort of drags, but if you liked Black Stucco or
the last piece or, um, Night Music, then you'd probably like Marclay's release
on ReR, which I forget the title of.  There he dedicates each track to a
particular artist and uses only recordings of that artist.  There's your
plunderphonics.  It's next on my to get list, but I've heard "Maria Callas" and
it's excellent.  Plus, I dig Marclay as the master phono-blaster, and so maybe
I'm biased.  In any case, I'd go there.

A fellow plunderphile,
PeterR

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Weird Little Boy question
Date: 26 May 1998 15:36:18 +0200

Hello
I know that Weird Little Boy was a special band project spearheaded by
John Zorn and Mike Patton. Music by Chris Cochrane, John Zorn and
members of the Mr. Bungle.

Does anybody own any of that, and if so what does it sound like?

Thanks
Marcin





-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Christopher Hamilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Feeling = "Anti-Intellectualism"?  (long)
Date: 26 May 1998 19:24:18 -0400 (EDT)



On Tue, 26 May 1998, Chris Genzel wrote:

>  What possible important information could you get by just looking up to the
>  sky and watching the stars, getting lost in thoughts and appreciating the
>  beauty of a night sky?

I'm too lazy to make the obvious joke about a huge meteor on a collision
course with the Earth.  My point wasn't that you would learn something
from just looking at the stars, but from considering why you like to look
at the stars.

> > I'm regularly surprised by the
> > anti-intellectualism adopted by so many people when it comes to music.

I'm apparently using 'anti-intellectualism' in a nonobvious way.  I mean
by this opposition to self-conscious consideration of something.  Your
explanation here suggests that it was a mistake on my part to imply that
you're anti-intellectual when it comes to music; you're just
anti-intellectual about music appreciation.

>  May I give you an example of why I can't apply certain characteristics
>  (reasons) to music based on which I like or dislike something.

Oddly enough, your example demonstrates my point as well.

>  One of my
>  recent purchases was Ground-Zero's "Revolutionary Pekinese Opera" (thanks to
>  the person on the list who recommended GZ!). I really love this record. If
>  I'd be asked what exactly is so great about it, I'd say it's so chaotic,
>  noisy and full of manic energy that I feel like being high.

Here you've told us something interesting about the Ground Zero record and
about yourself.

>  On the other
>  hand there are the Y.Eye tracks on "Naked City", which ... well, I don't
>  really dislike them, but I also wouldn't mind if they were missing. And why?
>  Because I find them too chaotic and noisy, and Eye's manic energy is some-
>  times getting on my nerves.

Here you've told us something interesting about the Naked City record and
about yourself.

> You see, I can name the same reasons for liking
>  and for disliking something.

And here, to my mind, you've raised an interesting puzzle.  You may be
right that it's not one that can be solved.  (Or that the solution comes
down to saying "I like this one, and I don't like that one.)  I don't
know.  But I don't think it's obvious that it's not worth thinking about.
In any case, my main point was just that thinking and talking about these
sorts of issues isn't pointless.  I remain surprised that so many people
seem to think it is.  Obviously, no one who isn't part of the music
industry has a responsibility to think and talk about them.  Sorry for the
length.

Chris Hamilton


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Jeff Schuth" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: serial music & why Zorn
Date: 26 May 1998 18:29:56 PDT



>From [e-mail] Tue May 26 15:46:09 1998
>Received: from default - 153.34.15.126 by email.msn.com with Microsoft
SMTPSVC;
>     Tue, 26 May 1998 15:45:41 -0700
>Message-ID: <000c01bd89c1$9d360ae0$7e0f2299@default>
>From: "Snap" <[e-mail]>
>To: "Jeff Schuth" <[e-mail]>
>Cc: <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Re: serial music & why Zorn
>Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 18:48:45 -0400
>X-Priority: 3
>X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
>X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
>X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
>Return-Path: [e-mail]
>
>
>Jeff Shuth wrote:
>
>
>>
>>>>
>>
>    First of all, I don't even own a thesaurus. Secondly, my
grandiloquence
>(ahem - I'm sorry, how about "overtly wordy writing or speaking") is a
way
>of cramming as much information into as brief a space as possible.
Why's
>everything got to be so simple? Verbosity is like an inside-joke or a
>musician's homogeneous dialect based upon preconceptions, much like
Zorn's
>"The Classic Guide to Strategy". Have you considered yet that my
scattergun
>approach to words was a deliberate lampooning of what seems to creep
its way
>onto this list quite often?
>    Epistolary vindications aside, I do feel comfortable knowing that I
>never confuse "your" (possessive determiner) with "you're"
(contraction). So
>much for mellifluity.
>
>You're pal,
>Snap
    I don't think you get my point.  I realize that in an e-mail I may
forget to add an apostraphe. Actually, that letter got sent before I
could even finish it, due to the slip of my finger. I'm not here to
proof read all my work; I have better things to do than try to impress a
group of pseudo-intellects like yourself.  When I sit down and right an
essay however, I am meticulous in detail.  I don't think your being
verbose at all, I just think you sound awkward.  Read any newspaper,
essay or novel and you won't find the author trying to fit every single
12 letter word that they can into the letter.  Zorn doesn't do this
either.  His wording is often even crude.  He swears, slangs and
rambles.  His linear notes do hold a lot of valuable information,
something that your notes lack.
>
>


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tom Benton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Cool NYC Stuff
Date: 26 May 1998 21:46:44 -0500 (CDT)

The above is what I'm looking for.  As luck would have it I'm going to be
coming up for five days of the NY JazzFest and it occurs to me that I
have nothing planned to do with my daylight hours.  Sites, shops, I'm open
to anything.  Especially the inside scoop from all you native NYCers out
there.

And I would certainly love to meet any Zorn-listers who are going to be
around, so if anybody wants to get together and hang then please get in
touch.

later all,
  Tom


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tag Yr It <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: serial music & why Zorn
Date: 26 May 1998 23:15:56 EDT

In a message dated 98-05-26 22:25:31 EDT, you write:

<<    I don't think you get my point.  I realize that in an e-mail I may
 forget to add an apostraphe. Actually, that letter got sent before I
 could even finish it, due to the slip of my finger. I'm not here to
 proof read all my work; I have better things to do than try to impress a
 group of pseudo-intellects like yourself.  When I sit down and right an
 essay however, I am meticulous in detail.  I don't think your being
 verbose at all, I just think you sound awkward.  Read any newspaper,
 essay or novel and you won't find the author trying to fit every single
 12 letter word that they can into the letter.  Zorn doesn't do this
 either.  His wording is often even crude.  He swears, slangs and
 rambles.  His linear notes do hold a lot of valuable information,
 something that your notes lack.
  >>

This grammar is so sad, I'm not even going to attempt to comment on it. But is
there a 6th grader out there who would?

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rich Williams <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: serial music & why Zorn
Date: 26 May 1998 21:36:37 -0500

Jeff Schuth wrote:

>     I don't think you get my point.  I realize that in an e-mail I may
> forget to add an apostraphe. Actually, that letter got sent before I
> could even finish it, due to the slip of my finger. I'm not here to
> proof read all my work; I have better things to do than try to impress a
> group of pseudo-intellects like yourself.  When I sit down and right an
> essay however, I am meticulous in detail.  I don't think your being
> verbose at all, I just think you sound awkward.  Read any newspaper,
> essay or novel and you won't find the author trying to fit every single
> 12 letter word that they can into the letter

Umm...Have you considered the possibility that the original post was a
pun?


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Jeff Schuth" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: serial music & why Zorn
Date: 26 May 1998 13:56:00 PDT



>>
>    And I myself am not at all surprised by the unerring elitism and
>two-dimensional attempts at aesthetic erudition adopted by those on
this
>list who have the unmitigated propensity to objectify and thus coronate
>their personal system of valuing a medium of art which is wholly
palatial,
>by that I mean pertinent to one's own tastes, and even at times to
one's own
>causality - a sequence of events and fixations in life may lead up to
one's
>preference of a genre over another; an observation as demanded, I know,
but
>entirely arbitrary when all that really might matter to a person is
>gastro-intestinal bliss.
>    Just who the hell do you think your kidding?  Do you always sit and
write an informal response with a thesaurus?  I mean, your not talking
above my level or anything, but the language is not fluent.  Besides, if
you were really that naturally efficient in English, shouldn't your
grammar be perfect?


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Chris Genzel)
Subject: Feeling = "Anti-Intellectualism"?
Date: 26 May 1998 22:57:11 +0200


 On Sun, 24 May 1998, I wrote:

>>    I don't really care why I like the stuff I like. I just like it, and I'm
>>    feeling very comfortable with this. The "why"s and "how"s are not only
>>    different from person to person, but also for me from piece to piece.
>>    Question: do you like watching the stars? why?

 Mr. Hamilton answered:

>    Trying to answer this question might well teach you something important
> about yourself or the stars or both.

 What possible important information could you get by just looking up to the
 sky and watching the stars, getting lost in thoughts and appreciating the
 beauty of a night sky?

> I'm regularly surprised by the
> anti-intellectualism adopted by so many people when it comes to music.

 Actually, my friends would laugh at the idea of me being
 anti- or non-intellectualistic. :)

 There are two ways of enjoying music: on a intellectual level or on a, say,
 visceral one. The first one has to do with analyzing, the second one with
 feeling. Now tell me, how can you appreciate a ballad when saying "ah, there
 are A chords followed by D chords" etc. instead of feeling the melancholy of
 these chords? I won't say you shouldn't analyze music. I often do it myself,
 but I do it to see what's there in a track, how it works, and not to figure
 out why or why not I like it. I like something just because of it.

 May I give you an example of why I can't apply certain characteristics
 (reasons) to music based on which I like or dislike something. One of my
 recent purchases was Ground-Zero's "Revolutionary Pekinese Opera" (thanks to
 the person on the list who recommended GZ!). I really love this record. If
 I'd be asked what exactly is so great about it, I'd say it's so chaotic,
 noisy and full of manic energy that I feel like being high. On the other
 hand there are the Y.Eye tracks on "Naked City", which ... well, I don't
 really dislike them, but I also wouldn't mind if they were missing. And why?
 Because I find them too chaotic and noisy, and Eye's manic energy is some-
 times getting on my nerves. You see, I can name the same reasons for liking
 and for disliking something. The truth is that Ground-Zero feels right for
 me and the Eye tracks don't. This may be (and certainly is) completely
 different for other people, but that's the whole point.

 And snap wrote to Mr. Hamilton:

>     That you failed to extract from what he had said about his attraction to
> Zorn's recordings shows that your attention is channeled toward some red
> herring of a demagogic ideal - or ideals - with which some of us may be
> unaware (they say age is requisite to wisdom) and therefore unconcerned. For
> Chris Genzel HAS just told us why he likes Zorn's music: FOR
> NON-INTELLECTUAL REASONS. [In tandem with some of his personality traits,
> perhaps, albeit intrinsically, the Vedantic method of defrocking things like
> "science" and "reason"(which has been stood upon its head for quite some
> time now) clearly his way of dispensing with demons of sophistry and
> possibly even enriching his listening pleasure.]

 I guess that this adds to my listening pleasure, because I can surrender to
 the flow of the piece, get lost in its sounds, and I often get a good idea of
 what the musicians/composer wanted to express. Actually, more often than not,
 this leads me to liking most music in one way or another.

 Kind regards,
 - Chris.

 ---------------------------------------------
 *    Chris Genzel --- [e-mail]    *
 * Homepage & Herbie Hancock Discography at: *
 *    http://home.t-online.de/home/stamil/   *
 ---------------------------------------------


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Jeff Schuth" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: serial music & why Zorn
Date: 27 May 1998 05:19:53 PDT



>From [e-mail] Tue May 26 20:37:06 1998
>Received: from 204.60.24.189 (brpt-sh4-port189.snet.net
[204.60.24.189])
>    by smtp1 (8.8.8/8.8.8/SNET-bmx-1.1) with SMTP id XAA03257;
>    Tue, 26 May 1998 23:37:03 -0400 (EDT)
>Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
>Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 21:36:37 -0500
>From: Rich Williams <[e-mail]>
>Reply-To: [e-mail]
>Organization: The United States of Amnesia
>X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC)
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>To: Jeff Schuth <[e-mail]>
>CC: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: serial music & why Zorn
>References: <[e-mail]>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>Jeff Schuth wrote:
>
>>     I don't think you get my point.  I realize that in an e-mail I
may
>> forget to add an apostraphe. Actually, that letter got sent before I
>> could even finish it, due to the slip of my finger. I'm not here to
>> proof read all my work; I have better things to do than try to
impress a
>> group of pseudo-intellects like yourself.  When I sit down and right
an
>> essay however, I am meticulous in detail.  I don't think your being
>> verbose at all, I just think you sound awkward.  Read any newspaper,
>> essay or novel and you won't find the author trying to fit every
single
>> 12 letter word that they can into the letter
>
>Umm...Have you considered the possibility that the original post was a
>pun?
>   Yes I have considered that possability.  I also think I was an ass
hole for writing this letter--must have been in a bad mood or something,
sorry
>


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Brian Olewnick <[e-mail]>
Subject: Terraplane
Date: 27 May 1998 09:43:34 -0400

Though I enjoyed Sharp's initial release from this band a couple of
years back, two things nagged at me: the somewhat thin overall group
sound and the often plodding drumwork. Well, these problems have been
rectified.

Caught Terraplane at the Knit last evening and they were ferocious. The
line-up was Sharp (guitar, steel guitar, tenor), Sam Furnace (alto and
baritone), Dave Hofstra (electric bass and tuba) and Sim Cain (drums).
The addition of Furnace is crucial; he and Sharp balance each other
perfectly, both in the tight heads and in the roaring free playing and
he contributes a rich, full sound that the band needed. Cain was
extraordinary, always varying the rhythms (even tossing in a few d 'n' b
licks) and playing with enormous enthusiasm. They stretched things a lot
farther than the disc, expanding the blues form 'til it burst. Wonderful
stuff. I trust they're planning to record.

Brian Olewnick

PS. To forestall anyone asking, I did manage to last three songs into
Eszter Balint's set. The less said, the better.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Redman/Dixon
Date: 27 May 1998 11:41:57 -0300

Hi Zornheads!
A friend of mine is looking desperately for Joshua Redman's "Captured
Live" (Jazzdoor); is there anybody out there who can give us a clue?

And what about cellist Akua Dixon from Quartette Indigo? Any
information/reviews on her?

Thanks in advance.

-Hugo, from Argentina

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Craig Rath <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Recent Goodies
Date: 27 May 1998 13:07:59 -0500

At 03:06 PM 5/26/98 UT, you wrote:

>then you'd probably like Marclay's release
>on ReR, which I forget the title of.


It's called "More Encores", which makes me assume there is an earlier album
called "Encores" which I have never seen.


>There he dedicates each track to a
>particular artist and uses only recordings of that artist.  There's your
>plunderphonics.  It's next on my to get list, but I've heard "Maria
Callas" and
>it's excellent.  Plus, I dig Marclay as the master phono-blaster, and so
maybe
>I'm biased.  In any case, I'd go there.


I second the recommendation.  While I really like "Records" a lot, this one
seems to find its way into the CD player much more often.



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Snap" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: serial music & why Zorn
Date: 28 May 1998 15:12:45 -0400



>>
>>Jeff Shuth wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>    First of all, I don't even own a thesaurus. Secondly, my
>grandiloquence
>>(ahem - I'm sorry, how about "overtly wordy writing or speaking") is a
>way
>>of cramming as much information into as brief a space as possible.
>Why's
>>everything got to be so simple? Verbosity is like an inside-joke or a
>>musician's homogeneous dialect based upon preconceptions, much like
>Zorn's
>>"The Classic Guide to Strategy". Have you considered yet that my
>scattergun
>>approach to words was a deliberate lampooning of what seems to creep
>its way
>>onto this list quite often?
>>    Epistolary vindications aside, I do feel comfortable knowing that I
>>never confuse "your" (possessive determiner) with "you're"
>(contraction). So
>>much for mellifluity.
>>
>>You're pal,
>>Snap
>    I don't think you get my point.  I realize that in an e-mail I may
>forget to add an apostraphe. Actually, that letter got sent before I
>could even finish it, due to the slip of my finger. I'm not here to
>proof read all my work; I have better things to do than try to impress a
>group of pseudo-intellects like yourself.  When I sit down and right an
>essay however, I am meticulous in detail.  I don't think your being
>verbose at all, I just think you sound awkward.  Read any newspaper,
>essay or novel and you won't find the author trying to fit every single
>12 letter word that they can into the letter.  Zorn doesn't do this
>either.  His wording is often even crude.  He swears, slangs and
>rambles.  His linear notes do hold a lot of valuable information,
>something that your notes lack.
>>
    Christ, don't you realize a joke when you sea one? Why are you Stoic
aestheticians so stern about everything? Sheesh!
    Are you being philologically subtle up their, or are you really that
homophonically challenged? Do my 12-letter words bother you? It's been
awhile since I saw a laconic essay, serious OR frivolous. The first thing
one does when he/she doesn't understand something (like a 12-letter word) is
deplore it, dub it useless and false. In response to my post I have been
called pretentious. Damn straight! Pretentious AND verbose. Bullseye. I've
heard tell by many that these are bad things, whether or not utilized
seriously or jokingly.
    Schopenhaeur had said that music was the "thing in itself", the most
independent of all mediums of art, drawing naught but from its own device,
while painting and literature framed reality and relied upon it for survival
while plagiarizing it, negating it, and sanctifying it simultaneously. But
that's Schopenhaeur. Had he forsaken 12-letter words and played Rainman,
we'd have on our hands a text whose picking-up would induce hernia.
    As for my metaphor of Zorn's "Classic Guide to Strategy", you are WAY of
base. I'm sorry; I dont even see you on the field. In defending my verbosity
(which was all a big intentional joke poking fun at "What Zorn Means to Me,
and Why You Should Listen", a rather good read, I'll admit), I was alluding
to his claim that what he does at times, both on the alto and as a composer,
is based on preconceptions, like the evolution of an inside-joke. It had
absolutely nothing to do with his prose. His prose is fine; but it means
nothing to me, as I am interested in his music, not his sartorial
trailblazings or family tree.
    Now, with the admittingly convoluted post of mine I was not trying to
deride musical exegesis; I happen to find these analytics very interesting,
and yes, very self-revealing. I was just a bit frustrated with always having
to wade my way through interminable self-portraits to get to something
useful, like "who's in town", "recent goodies", and "similiarities between
Zappa and Zorn". The eruption of my parodic volcano, as it were, was not
caused by innocent debates, which was why this list was established - and I
hope they keep on going -, but by intellectual bullying of those not
interested in exegesis by those who seem to monopolize the list with an
average of three to four posts a day. That I singled out Chris Hamilton was
admittingly ruthless, and I apologize.





-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Bob Kowalski <[e-mail]>
Subject:  cohen
Date: 27 May 1998 16:00:02 -0500

Anyone have the lowdown on how Greg Cohen ended up on stage with
Mr. Woody Allen in the documentary "Wild Man Blues" (covered Woodman
& co.'s  European tour dates and was an excelent and funny piece)?

Also, I look forward to Cohen and Baron on the upcoming Misha
Merhlengberg Trio (sp...) disc.  Has anyone heard this yet?

caio

Bob in Somerville

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Bob Kowalski <[e-mail]>
Subject:  cohen
Date: 27 May 1998 16:00:02 -0500

Anyone have the lowdown on how Greg Cohen ended up on stage with
Mr. Woody Allen in the documentary "Wild Man Blues" (covered Woodman
& co.'s  European tour dates and was an excelent and funny piece)?

Also, I look forward to Cohen and Baron on the upcoming Misha
Merhlengberg Trio (sp...) disc.  Has anyone heard this yet?

caio

Bob in Somerville

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: cohen
Date: 27 May 1998 19:24:55 -0400 (EDT)

Easy, when he's not making the Zorn scene or producing records (Madeline
Peyroux [sp] is trhe one I know about), Cohen is part of that white
Dixieland scene which always needs strong bassists. A friend of mine ran
into him at the recent Milwaukee Hot Jazz Party, where in some cases Greg
was 20 to 40 years younger than the musicians (and 30 to 60 years
younger than the fans)

Ken Waxman
[e-mail]



On Wed, 27 May 1998, Bob Kowalski wrote:

> Anyone have the lowdown on how Greg Cohen ended up on stage with
> Mr. Woody Allen in the documentary "Wild Man Blues" (covered Woodman
> & co.'s  European tour dates and was an excelent and funny piece)?
>
> Also, I look forward to Cohen and Baron on the upcoming Misha
> Merhlengberg Trio (sp...) disc.  Has anyone heard this yet?
>
> caio
>
> Bob in Somerville
>
> -
>
>

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Toby Dodds <[e-mail]>
Subject: Zony Mash, NYC 6/3/98
Date: 27 May 1998 16:36:25 -0700 (PDT)


Just a reminder that Wayne Horvitz & Zony Mash will be performing at the
Hudson Tent as part of the NY Jazzfest on Wednesday June 3rd.  They are
scheduled to perform between 7 & 8 PM followed by the Jazz Passengers &
Squirrel Nut Zippers.  I know Wayne's got something special planned for
this one night only appearance by Zony Mash on the east coast so
definiately don't miss out!!

BYE!
Toby

[e-mail]
www.zonymash.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DR S WILKIE <[e-mail]>
Subject:       UK radio
Date: 28 May 1998 11:57:38 GMT0BST

just a note to tell people in the UK that "jazz on three" has the
Clusone trio on Saturday from Bath, and also an interview with Bill
Laswell, discussing the 29th anniversary (today!) of "emergency"!

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: BJOERN <[e-mail]>
Subject: black music question
Date: 28 May 1998 21:41:36 +0200 (MEST)

question: anyone can give me any info on good late 60s to early 70s black
music records that i do not know.....please answer privately since this is
not that list related i guess.......
i already know the stuff of:
stevie wonder, isaac hayes, roberta flack, funkadelic, parliament, bobby
womack, kool & the gang, earth, wind and fire, curtis mayfield...so you
guys dont have to metion these

BJOERN


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "David J. Keffer" <[e-mail]>
Subject: anti-intellectualism
Date: 26 May 1998 18:18:16 -0400

>
> Chris Hamilton mordantly (sic) wrote:
>
>>I'm regularly surprised by the
>>anti-intellectualism adopted by so many people when it comes to music.
>

I had some ideas in response to Chris Hamilton's surprise
at the anti-intellectualism used by many to interpret music.
What I would have said is that music is a medium that can be accepted without
intellectualism.  Anti-intellectualism is a response to the idea that
music cannot be appreciated without an intellectual insight into the music.
Music can be appreciated without intellectual dissection.
The intellectual understanding deepens the appreciation.  It is a generally
accepted philosophical viewpoint of aesthetics that "The more you know about
something, the more things there are to like (appreciate) about it."
However,
intellectual appreciation is not essential; it is just an added bonus for
the dedicated listener.  Surely you admit there is a pleasure in just "digging
the music."

Then I read this response:

"Snap" <[e-mail]> wrote:
>    And I myself am not at all surprised by the unerring elitism and
>two-dimensional attempts at aesthetic erudition adopted by those on this
>list who have the unmitigated propensity to objectify and thus coronate
>their personal system of valuing a medium of art which is wholly palatial,
>by that I mean pertinent to one's own tastes, and even at times to one's own
>causality - a sequence of events and fixations in life may lead up to one's
>preference of a genre over another; an observation as demanded, I know, but
>entirely arbitrary when all that really might matter to a person is
>gastro-intestinal bliss.

This must be a joke.  Here we have an argument for non-intellectual
appreciation
of music written in pompous and intellectual language.  I believe the
slang term for this sort of writing is "academese" or "technicalese".
It would be a satire if it was humorous.  I think Snap's argument serves no
purpose except to flaunt his vocabulary.  His argument is basically
nonsensical
and contradictory.  Take for example, "unerring elitism" from the paragraph
above.
It is obvious that Snap thinks this elitism is very much in error, judging
from the
tone of the rest of the paragraph.

[One reason the Zorn group is great is due to the new vocabulary
I learn in various postings.  In Snap's posting, there were
a variety of words or word usages new to me.  I looked the words
I did not know up in Webster's Encyclopedic Unabridged Dictionary.  FYI:
mordantly = sarcastically
Vedantic = in the philosophy of the Hindu Upanishadic doctrine of the
identity of
Brahman and Atman, that reached it's highest development A.D. circa 800
through the philosopher Shankara--what the philosophy says, I still don't
know.
sybarite = one devoted to luxury and pleasure
obliquy = (not in Webster's encyclopedic unabridged dictionary).  However
obliquity
means a "confusing or obscure statement or passage of writing, especially one
deliberately made obscure.)  If "obliquy" is intended to be obliquity,
then it applies perfectly to Snap's post, although I don't know why Snap
wanted
to point this deficiency out him/herself.
Some words I knew but couldn't figure out what they meant as used by Snap:
defrock =  to deprive a priest or monk of ecclesiastical rank
coronate = (actually an adjective, though used as a verb by Snap) having or
wearing a crown
supercillious = (actually supercilious) haughtily disdainful]

Another example:
>[In tandem with some of his personality traits,
>perhaps, albeit intrinsically, the Vedantic method of defrocking things like
>"science" and "reason"(which has been stood upon its head for quite some
>time now) clearly his way of dispensing with demons of sophistry and
>possibly even enriching his listening pleasure.]

This sentence is also nonsensical, partially because it is grammatically
incorrect and therefore difficult to understand.  The subject of the sentence
is apparently "method" or "way" but neither has a verb.  I have no idea
what this sentence intends to express.

Snap continues:
>    The last thing we need is a musical Rush Limbaugh (who is a big fat
>idiot) flinging his corpulence that way and this, parading down his
>rose-strewn path of righteousness, kicking all thorns onto those who see the
>path not as an end in itself, but as a means toward some nectar of sound.

But this is exactly the role that Snap is playing by using such phrases as
"unmitigated propensity", "two-dimensional attempts at aesthetic erudition",
and "intentionally supercillious".  Snap attempts to establish his/her
point of view
as the fuller and exclusively rational perspective.

Lastly, Snap writes:
>    Now, whether your remark about Chris Gunzel's refusal to extrapolate the
>behavior of his tympanic membranes was intentionally supercillious or just
>impulsively thought up and typed in casual, elbow-in-the-side amiability
>determines whether this obliquy of mine is likewise hawkish or aloof.

I believe this long sentence is logically false.  How can Chris Hamilton's
mood or intention in writing of his surprise at musical non-intellectualism
determine the tone of Snap's response?  Snap's response is obviously
intentionally supercilious and not impulsive.  Whether it is hawkish (meaning:
in the manner of a hawker of wares, presumably intended to be intrepreted as
loud and annoying) or aloof (meaning, disinterested), has nothing to do
with Chris Hamilton's original tone, which was neither hawkish nor aloof.

The point of this post?  Snap is not the only poster on the Zorn list guilty
of pompous and meaningless postings.  I think it does not take any great
stretch of the imagination to say that those of us who subscribe to this
list would be more interested in reading earnest and straight-forward
discussions.
It's not useful or enlightening to the the other members of the
list to hear these various (and quite possibly interesting opinions) if we
can't understand them, owing to careless or intentionally obtuse language.

Thanks.

David K.

p.s. But keep the new vocabulary words coming; those I enjoy.





-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Christopher Hamilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: anti-intellectualism
Date: 28 May 1998 21:44:59 -0400 (EDT)



On Tue, 26 May 1998, David J. Keffer wrote:

> However,
> intellectual appreciation is not essential; it is just an added bonus for
> the dedicated listener.  Surely you admit there is a pleasure in just "digging
> the music."

Yes, yes, yes, to everything in this paragraph including the parts I
snipped.  My objection is to active hostility towards taking the added
bonus (though I now realize that Chris Genzel's position is more
complicated than this).

Chris Hamilton


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: anti-intellectualism
Date: 29 May 1998 08:26:49 -0700


On Tue, 26 May 1998 18:18:16 -0400  "David J. Keffer" wrote:
>
> >
> > Chris Hamilton mordantly (sic) wrote:
> >
> >>I'm regularly surprised by the
> >>anti-intellectualism adopted by so many people when it comes to music.
> >
>
> I had some ideas in response to Chris Hamilton's surprise
> at the anti-intellectualism used by many to interpret music.
> What I would have said is that music is a medium that can be accepted without
> intellectualism.  Anti-intellectualism is a response to the idea that
> music cannot be appreciated without an intellectual insight into the music.
> Music can be appreciated without intellectual dissection.
> The intellectual understanding deepens the appreciation.  It is a generally
> accepted philosophical viewpoint of aesthetics that "The more you know about
> something, the more things there are to like (appreciate) about it."
> However,
> intellectual appreciation is not essential; it is just an added bonus for
> the dedicated listener.  Surely you admit there is a pleasure in just "digging
> the music."

I guess I see some historical reasons to a form of "anti-intellectualism".

The fact that artists get rejected by so-called intellectual (based on what
they think are solid argumentation) for not being "cutting-edge" or for being
"commercial". On the other side, some artists produce a level of infatuation
that has more to do with the rethoric associated to their art that the final
product... Fortunately time is here to restablish the priorities :-).

When you think of all the brain cells that have been used (wasted?) in many
fashionable political/aesthetical theories, you can't stop feeling indulgent
for anti-intellectuels (and ashamed for the ones who were supposed to know).

I have become very sceptic about criticism of music recently, specially of
improv. The standard deviation of judgements of concerts/records is appalling
and only the dialectical skills of one critic can sometimes make a difference
in an ocean of confusion.

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Brent Burton <[e-mail]>
Subject: vision festival
Date: 29 May 1998 16:42:54 -0400 (EDT)


this past saturday i caught the 6th night of the 3rd annual vision
festival in nyc, featuring the redoubtable quartet of milford
graves/charles gayle/kidd jordan/william parker.  let me just say that if
you *ever* get a chance to see milford graves you should kill, maim, and
steal to do so.  graves defines the word heavy.  just like the beginning
of the mid-70's milford graves lp _babi_, the quartet played full-on from
the drop of the very first beat.  graves and parker provided a nearly
impenetrable wall of free rhythm sound over which gayle's tenor-playing
sounded uncharacteristically lyrical and relaxed.  certainly thick
energy-sound playing @ it's finest, but not the frenzied skronk and skree
that i was expecting.  (hopefully kidd jordan, who is from the big easy,
will get invited back for more spontaneous blowing sessions)  for me, the
highlight of their set came when graves began simultaneously chanting and
soloing, before abandoning his homemade kit altogether to indulge in some
freaky quasi-african dance and a stage-dive.  wow!

subsequent sets by rob brown's quartet and other dimensions were rock
solid but seemed almost anticlimactic after graves and company.

bassist peter kowald's group was the other real highlight for me on
saturday night.  kowald's quartet, which featured gunda gottschalk on
violin, jin hi kim on komoungo (a traditional korean stringed instrument)
and xu feng xia on ghuzeng (a traditional chinese stringed instrument), was
the most subdued group of the evening and rooted more firmly in european and
asian classical traditions than the gutbucket, freewheeling americanisms of
free jazz.  gottschalk did get a bit freaky, emitting random high-pitched
screams while playing, but the group's improvisations mostly sustained a
minimal, almost devotional quality.

i just wish i could have seen more of the festival.

b

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Friedrich Feger <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: anti-intellectualism
Date: 30 May 1998 16:08:54 +0200

Hi everybody,

Chris Genzel wrote:
>There are two ways of enjoying music: on a intellectual level or on a, say,
> visceral one. The first one has to do with analyzing, the second one with
> feeling. [...] I won't say you shouldn't analyze music. I often do it
myself,
> but I do it to see what's there in a track, how it works, and not to figure
> out why or why not I like it.

First, I don't think that those two ways can be decoupled completely. I. e.
in complete absence of reason, a purely extatic state of mind, you won't
recognize anything, whereas in a completely non-emotional state of mind you
won't recognize music as music but as meaningless noises. Ergo: it's not a
neither-nor question, but only a question of proportions. Secondly, I think
it to be operational to decompose the intellectual grip on music depending
from the purpose. This D major E flat minor thing is a technical matter
which can be very far away from an analysis of the effects of music. It
seems to be of interest for imitation purposes rather than for an aesthetic
analysis.

Consequently I do not completely agree with David, when he says:
>Music can be appreciated without intellectual dissection.
>The intellectual understanding deepens the appreciation.

I think a concept of music appreciation WITHOUT intellectual participation
is naive. Plus the latter must not infinitely extendible; it depends from
the kind of music. I wouldn't think that a dissection of very earthy,
simple structured folk music would deepen my appreciation, cause the
intellectual content is that few, as well as the technical complexity
(purposefully in many cases, I think).

Chris Genzel says:
>You see, I can name the same reasons for liking
>and for disliking something.

No, the same parameter, but a different amount of it. What you did is a
reasonable analysis of your appreciation.

Patrice says:
>The fact that artists get rejected by so-called intellectual (based on what
>they think are solid argumentation) for not being "cutting-edge" or for
being
>"commercial".

Even if so, this shoudn't keep us listeners from ignoring the artist's
intention and taking the music the way we like to, be it possibly emotional
or possibly intellectual

Patrice:
>I have become very sceptic about criticism of music recently, specially of
>improv. The standard deviation of judgements of concerts/records is appalling
>and only the dialectical skills of one critic can sometimes make a
difference
>in an ocean of confusion.

I think this calls for another differentiation: is an intellectual way of
listening to music identical with revealing objective properties of it? I
don't think so. The critic has the difficult and often impracticable
problem of beeing expected to say intersubjective things about what he
critisizes. To me, the emotional AND the intellectual content of art is
mainly subjective, i.e. recipient-specific, so that the publication of my
interpretation of an artwork may only match other people's judgements
insofar as they share my dispositions of understanding.

Fritz

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Stefan Verstraeten <[e-mail]>
Subject: Funny stuff E# and Feldman
Date: 29 May 1998 08:56:21 +0200

Dear Zornies,

For those of you interested in Elliot Sharp, I post these mails that
appeared on the Elliot Sharp mailing list.

It deals with some funny stuff that happened between Sharp en Feldman,
enjoy these....

> > Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 14:34:27 EDT
> > From: [e-mail]
> > Subject: Re: Datacide #09
> >
> > **Devin, regarding your post...yes, there is truth to the E# vs. Feldman stry,
> > I believe,
> >    as he told me a similar story with some additional info...
> >
> > In a message dated 98-05-27 13:54:13 EDT, you write:
> >
> > <<
> >  Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 09:39:02 -0700
> >  From: "Devin Hurd"
> >  Subject:  E# and Feldman
> >
> > Here's something from the John Cage list.  This is a great story.  Is there
> >  any truth to it?
> >  ------------------------------
> >
> >  Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 20:02:37 -0400
> >  From: Kristen Rigney <[e-mail]>
> >  Subject: Re: Was Re: True? You be the judge...
> >
> >  A story for the budding composer;
> >
> >  While at Hallwalls in Buffalo, I had the pleasure of programming Elliott
> >  Sharp, once with Zeena and once with Carbon. E# was an undergraduate at
> >  SUNY Buffalo while Morton Feldman was still alive. Elliott, as a young
> >  budding composition student in the 70's was very interested, as were others
> >  of his classmates, Bobby Previte included, in the idea of improvisation
> >  as a tool of the composer...and made no bones about it. Morton Feldman,
> >  however, had other ideas...and also made no bones about it. Elliott told me
> >  Feldman accosted him in the hallway of the old Baird Music Building
> >  immediately after a recital and said in a very loud voice:
> >
> >  "Improvisation just doesn't wash!"
> >
> >  E# quit the program some time later that year and moved to NY.
> >
> >  So, who's experimentalism is it anyway?
> >
> >  Hope that helps. ;)
> >
> >  Dan Rigney >>
> >
> > **Elliott also mentioned another incedent, which I'm pretty sure was also with
> > Feldman....Elliott had composed a piece for a student concert, or a class or
> > something...and Feldman was in the audience "holding court", I believe Eliott
> > refered to it as...Well, just as Elliott's group was about to start, Feldman
> > yelled out "wait...where is the percussionist's music stand?".  Elliott
> > explained that the percussionist did not need a stand because, although the
> > rest of the musician's had scores to read, the percussionist would be
> > improvising.  Feldman then grabbed a stand, walked up onto the stage in a
> > huff, placed it (without a music score!) before the percussionist, and said
> > "THERE!  NOW you can start"
> >
> > The next day, Feldman asked Elliott to step into his office, and said
> > "Improvisation....I don't buy it!"  He also said, at some point, "Mr.
> > Sharp...music is intended to be listened to while sitting in plush red velvet
> > seats...YOUR music however seems to be meant for listening to while squatting
> > on a dirt floor..." or something to that nature....pretty funny, considering
> > Feldman fancied himself a pioneer of innovation!
> >
> > Jonathan LaMaster
> > Sublingual Records
> > www.sublingual.com
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 20:20:40 +0100
> > From: elliott sharp
> > Subject: tales of feldman
> >
> > i always enjoy witnessing the transformation of information.  here's the
> > story on some of my dealings with Morton Feldman (excerpted from
> > unpublished writings "In Passing"):
> >
> > Shortly after my arrival in Buffalo in August '74 I joined the Composer's
> > Forum at the University where I was taking two music courses and working as
> > the Maintenance Guy/Electronicist for the Music Department.  The Forum met
> > weekly and planned a concert or two for each semester.   Morton Feldman
> > held court - waxing egotistically philosophical, reminiscing about the good
> > old days of avant-garde music in the Fifties, issuing pronouncements about
> > what should and should not be done in the composition of music, and
> > intimidating the generally fearful and awed students (except, of course,
> > those anointed by him to carry the torch via insipid imitation of Feldman.)
> > He cut quite a figure with his horn rims, greasy pompadour, huge belly,
> > and the ever-present Camel with an inch of ash ready to drop.  Certainly,
> > he was entertaining (and i was a great fan of his music and writings.)
> >         For the October event, I decided to present HUDSON RIVER #7 - a
> > piece for soprano sax and tape.  On the tape was a 90" through-composed
> > melody played on the soprano through a ring modulator.  This track was
> > slowed down to half-speed and another ring-modulated sax track improvised
> > and overdubbed to the now 180" line.  This was then slowed down to
> > half-speed again for the performance yielding a 360" heterophonic
> > background over which I improvised a third sax part.  Morty called me into
> > his office the next morning, sat me down, and quickly dismissed me (in
> > thick Brooklynese): "You know, improvisation, I don't buy it." I muttered
> > that I wasn't selling and slipped out.
> >         In November '74, I began work on ATTICA BROTHERS for presentation
> > at the March '75 concert. Composed for violin, cello, electric guitar,
> > contrabass, orchestral percussionist, rock drummer (the beginning of my
> > friendship and musical association with Bobby Previte), and conga drummer;
> > the piece was structured in two parts over a continuous pulse played by the
> > conga.  A conductor with time cards cued the various entries and
> > transitions.   The first part featured a through-composed seven-note melody
> > in a pentatonic "blues scale" for the strings stretched over five minutes
> > and harmonized microtonally to produce an angry buzzing with the drummers
> > exchanging  short, intense blasts.  The second part (three minutes long)
> > featured a through-composed groove for rock drums and bass while the
> > strings wailed like sirens, the percussionist earthquaked, and I improvised
> > fuzzed out glissandi.  As we prepared to commence the performance, Feldman
> > stood up from the packed house and yelled "Where's his music stand?"
> > pointing at the conga drummer.  I replied that he didn't need one because
> > his entrance and exit were cued by the conductor.  Feldman's reply was to
> > climb on stage, grab a music stand from the wings, bang it down in front of
> > the percussionist (jaw-dropped, eyes glazed with fear) and announce, "Now
> > you can play the piece."  Like before,  Morty called me into his office the
> > next morning: "You know, you put too much sociology in your music.  Music
> > should be listened to sitting in red plush seats, but your music, you have
> > to sit on the floor."
> --
--
Stefan Verstraeten




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rich Williams <[e-mail]>
Subject: Tom Cora Tribute
Date: 30 May 1998 12:07:01 -0500

Can anyone provide a review of the Tom Cora Tribute at the Knit last
week?

Rich

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Chris Genzel)
Subject: Music appreciation & anti-intellectualism
Date: 30 May 1998 20:54:47 +0200


 Chris Hamilton wrote:

> My point wasn't that you would learn something from just looking at the stars,
> but from considering why you like to look at the stars.

 I think we're talking about two different points here. I can agree with you.
 Considering why I like to look at the stars, I see that I'm a romantic guy
 whose imagination gets a kick when he looks at the bright dots on the dark sky.
 It gives me the feeling of sweet melancholy which I like so much. You're right,
 asking "why?" might bring up some interesting thoughts. My point actually was
 that I don't always *want* to ask "why?", but instead just lay back and
 appreciate. Asking "why?" creates a sort of distance between you and the
 object of your appreciation, and more often than not I want to get as close to
 it as possible.

> And here, to my mind, you've raised an interesting puzzle. You may be
> right that it's not one that can be solved. (Or that the solution comes
> down to saying "I like this one, and I don't like that one.) I don't
> know. But I don't think it's obvious that it's not worth thinking about.

 Again: agreed. It's fascinating sometimes to think about puzzles which have
 no solution. It can be worth the time. But it can also be worth *not* thinking
 about it, but just accept it.

 David J. Keffer wrote:

> However,
> intellectual appreciation is not essential; it is just an added bonus for
> the dedicated listener.  Surely you admit there is a pleasure in just "digging
> the music."

 Right, there is no intellect necessary to appreciate music. A dumb person can
 like music as well, and even retarded people can appreciate music.
 But I wouldn't say that analysis is an "added bonus". Well, sometimes it is.
 But sometimes, again, it can be the other way round. Some things have more
 power when you just let them engulf you instead of analyzing the components.

 Then Chris Hamilton wrote:

> Yes, yes, yes, to everything in this paragraph including the parts I
> snipped.  My objection is to active hostility towards taking the added
> bonus (though I now realize that Chris Genzel's position is more
> complicated than this).

 Please explain this to me.

 Friedrich Feger wrote:

> Chris Genzel says:
> >You see, I can name the same reasons for liking
> >and for disliking something.
>
> No, the same parameter, but a different amount of it. What you did is a
> reasonable analysis of your appreciation.

 It's absurd. Ground-Zero's "RPO" is certainly more noisy and chaotic than the
 Eye tracks on Naked City. But I'd say the Eye tracks are too noisy and chaotic
 for me. To make this even more confusing: I love Material's "Memory Serves"
 because it's slightly noisy and chaotic, but not too much. I love Ground-Zero's
 "Revolutionary Pekinese Opera" because it's over-the-top noisy and choatic.
 I love Herbie Hancock's "Dis Is Da Drum" because it's not the slightest bit
 noisy and chaotic. And I do not like Anthony Braxton's "Open Aspects (Duo) 1982"
 because it's noisy and chaotic. And I do not like Kenny G because he isn't
 noisy and chaotic at all. You see, the amount seems to be no criterium.

 Sorry that this was so long.

 Best wishes,
 - Chris.

 ---------------------------------------------
 *    Chris Genzel --- [e-mail]    *
 * Homepage & Herbie Hancock discography at: *
 *    http://home.t-online.de/home/stamil/   *
 ---------------------------------------------


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Brian Olewnick <[e-mail]>
Subject: Available Jelly etc.
Date: 30 May 1998 15:26:50 -0400

Kevin Whitehead mentioned this band in 'New Dutch Swing' and, lo and
behold, I found their HAPPY CAMP on Ramboy in the West 72nd St HMV
(NYC'ers take note, this branch has a pretty decent jazz section these
days, with much Cadence-distributed stuff). The band (and, yes, I could
do without the dated/silly name) is Eric Boeren (cornet), Tobias Delius
(tenor), Michael Moore (clarinets, alto), Wolter Wierbos (trombone),
Ernst Glerum (bass) and Michael Vatcher, who zornies will remember from
the SPY VS SPY record, (drums). A very nice disc--fans of the Clusone 3
should enjoy it greatly. Features a couple of obscure Ellington tunes
(including a lovely version of 'The Village of the Virgins') as well as
one partially based on that same gorgeous Madagascaran theme that
Klucevsek used for his 'Union Hall' on the FLYING VEGETABLES... disc.
Moore seems to be the nominal leader; at least he gets the lion's share
of compositional work on this one. Check it out.

Also, belatedly, picked up Cyro Batista's VIRA LOUCOS, which I imagine
most here already own. Very tasty.

In the $2.99 bin, I scrounged up the original Rootless Cosmopolitans
disc (somewhat disjointed and unfulfilling, I find; I think Ribot's
conception has greatly matured in the intervening years--JZ's
influence?) and the Laswell/Thaemlitz collaboration on Subharmonic, WEB.
I had pretty much given up on Laswell's ambient stuff a few years
back--too much fluff for my tastes, but for three bucks, I took the
chance. It's not too bad, actually, a bit more enjoyable than the
Divination discs which it otherwise resembles.

All for now,

Brian Olewnick

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Dominique Leone" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn List Digest V2 #379
Date: 30 May 1998 12:55:16 PDT

Anyone caught in an argument about the intellectualism of music acts as
a proponent, no?


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Perfect Sound Forever <[e-mail]>
Subject: James Blood Ulmer, Christian Marclay interviews
Date: 30 May 1998 18:53:14 -0400

Greetings,

In the latest edition of Perfect Sound Forever
<http://www.furious.com/perfect>, you'll find (among other things):

CHRISTIAN MARCLAY INTERVIEW
Turntable instrumentalist- not just a DJ, he's still got his own (proudly
lo-fi) wheels of steel

JAMES BLOOD ULMER INTERVIEW
Tales of Captain Black with his thoughts on Harmolodic music

You might also be interested in:

CUL DE SAC INTERVIEW
Epiphanies from Glenn Jones

JACK KEROUAC'S STORY IN MUSIC
From a recent tribute CD- interviews with project organizers Jim Sampas and
Lee Renaldo (Sonic Youth)

MOONDOG INTERVIEW
Swingin' counterpoint from this reclusive genius

CHRISTIAN WOLFF INTERVIEW
'the New York school' lives!  Wolff is an unjustly lesser-known part of the
movement that spawned Cage and Feldman

We're always looking for good material so let us know if you have any
material or ideas for upcoming issues.

See you online,
Jason

Perfect Sound Forever
online music magazine
[e-mail]

http://www.furious.com/perfect

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Christopher Hamilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Ribot, ambient Laswell
Date: 31 May 1998 12:32:35 -0400 (EDT)



On Sat, 30 May 1998, Brian Olewnick wrote:

> In the $2.99 bin, I scrounged up the original Rootless Cosmopolitans
> disc (somewhat disjointed and unfulfilling, I find; I think Ribot's
> conception has greatly matured in the intervening years--JZ's
> influence?)

How so?  I'm not challenging you; I just haven't been able to extract a
more focused conception from recent Ribot than the older stuff (which I
agree is disjointed, albeit great fun).  This has probably kept me from
listening to the disc of film music more, so tips would be helpful.

> and the Laswell/Thaemlitz collaboration on Subharmonic, WEB.
> I had pretty much given up on Laswell's ambient stuff a few years
> back--too much fluff for my tastes, but for three bucks, I took the
> chance. It's not too bad, actually, a bit more enjoyable than the
> Divination discs which it otherwise resembles.

I'm not sure which Laswell ambient discs you've heard.  The "duos" are
generally much more austere than the Divination records.  If you're
interested in this vein, I'd especially recommend the Laswell/Harris
_Somnific Flux_ and the Laswell/Sharp _Visitation_.  Divination's
_Distill_ is also much more austere than the earlier Divination records.

Chris Hamilton


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn List Digest V2 #379
Date: 31 May 1998 09:38:06 -0700


On Sat, 30 May 1998 12:55:16 PDT  "Dominique Leone" wrote:
>
> Anyone caught in an argument about the intellectualism of music acts as
> a proponent, no?

A wanna-be intellectual for sure.

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tom Pratt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Ribot
Date: 31 May 1998 12:44:52 -0400

Christopher Hamilton wrote:
>
> On Sat, 30 May 1998, Brian Olewnick wrote:
>
> > In the $2.99 bin, I scrounged up the original Rootless Cosmopolitans
> > disc (somewhat disjointed and unfulfilling, I find; I think Ribot's
> > conception has greatly matured in the intervening years--JZ's
> > influence?)
>
> How so?  I'm not challenging you; I just haven't been able to extract a
> more focused conception from recent Ribot than the older stuff (which I
> agree is disjointed, albeit great fun).  This has probably kept me from
> listening to the disc of film music more, so tips would be helpful.

As eclectic as the Film Music disc is, I find it remarkably seemless and
has a very "whole album" feel to it (I would certainly not describe it
as unfocused). I loved the Rootless Cosmos disc. It's INTENTIONALLY
disjointed - I mean come on, it's Ribot! How could you not fall for the
version of "While My Guitar Gently Weeps"?

'Shrek' is much more focused but I think the least fulfilling of all his
discs.

Anxiously awaiting the Cubanos disc (anyone know the release date?)...

                -Tom Pratt

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Music appreciation & anti-intellectualism
Date: 30 May 1998 15:52:25 -0400

Chris Genzel wrote:

>  It's absurd. Ground-Zero's "RPO" is certainly more noisy and chaotic than the
>  Eye tracks on Naked City. But I'd say the Eye tracks are too noisy and chaotic
>  for me. To make this even more confusing: I love Material's "Memory Serves"
>  because it's slightly noisy and chaotic, but not too much. I love Ground-Zero's
>  "Revolutionary Pekinese Opera" because it's over-the-top noisy and choatic.
>  I love Herbie Hancock's "Dis Is Da Drum" because it's not the slightest bit
>  noisy and chaotic. And I do not like Anthony Braxton's "Open Aspects (Duo) 1982"
>  because it's noisy and chaotic. And I do not like Kenny G because he isn't
>  noisy and chaotic at all. You see, the amount seems to be no criterium.

It might be worth looking at what else is happening in the music that
creates a setting for the noise and chaos, either as an accepting bed
for it or as a contrast to it.

For example, I like the noise and chaos of the ending of King Crimson's
"21st Century Schizoid Man" partially because it grows out of an
extremely orderly song and jump cuts into the simply slow tonality of
the mellotron  flutes (I think) of "I Talk to the Wind". I don't know
that I'd want to listen to an entire album of it. It's rather like
textures and seasonings in food: the context and presentation are
essential. I like some spicy food, but wouldn't chow down on a plate
of raw chili peppers.

I've been scratching my head on this trying to figure out why Zorn's
"Duras" works for me while Anthony Coleman's "The Abysmal Richness of
the Infinite Proximity of the Same" doesn't. To describe them verbally,
they seem very similar, yet I find the impact different. I'm wondering
if I listen to things in the Radical Jewish Culture series differently,
and with different expectations, than I do to stuff in the Composers
series, and whether I would have the opposite reactions if the
packaging were swapped...

--
---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Brian Olewnick <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Ribot
Date: 31 May 1998 16:26:15 -0400

> Christopher Hamilton wrote:

> How so?  I'm not challenging you; I just haven't been able to extract > a more focused conception from recent Ribot than the older stuff
> (which I agree is disjointed, albeit great fun).  This has probably   > kept me from listening to the disc of film music more, so tips would > be helpful.

I was thinking more of his work with JZ and Ikue Mori, I guess, though I
do enjoy his solo disc on DIW and the Tzadik 'Shoestring...' release
more than this one. It's not the stylistic jump cuts that bother me here
as much as the, IMHO, lack of inspiration on the covers and lack of very
interesting ideas in the originals.

Tom Pratt replied:

> As eclectic as the Film Music disc is, I find it remarkably seemless  > and has a very "whole album" feel to it (I would certainly not        > describe it as unfocused). I loved the Rootless Cosmos disc. It's     > INTENTIONALLY disjointed - I mean come on, it's Ribot! How could you  > not fall for the version of "While My Guitar Gently Weeps"?

Well, I remain unfelled. Admittedly, I don't find the original
particularly worthwhile. On the other hand, IMHO, 'The Wind Cries Mary'
is one of the more beautiful things Hendrix ever created,
guitaristically _and_ vocally, and Ribot's dissection of it sounds
uninspired in a peculiarly late-80's cut 'n' paste kind of way. Perhaps
my main complaint with the record is the plodding drumming of Richie
Schwarz, of whom I've otherwise been blissfully ignorant. Not that the
disc doesn't have its moments: for me, the highlight occurs towards the
end of the wonderfully titled 'Nature Abhors a Vacuum Cleaner' where the
band approaches Lifetime territory, albeit with Steve Gadd rather than
Tony Williams.  ;-)

Still looking forward to the Los Cubanos disc,

Brian Olewnick

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Edvin Berntsen <[e-mail]>
Subject: Touring summer 1998
Date: 31 May 1998 23:26:11 +0200

I'm new to the zorn-list !!!
I know that John Zorn with his Painkiller will perform at the
International Jazz Festival in Molde, Norway - July 16. My question is -
do anybody know if Painkiller will perform somewhere else in Scandinavia
this summer ??? ...or do you know where to get touring information.

Edvin B

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Silent Watcher" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Ambient Laswell
Date: 31 May 1998 14:34:22 PDT

>I'm not sure which Laswell ambient discs you've heard.  The "duos" >are
generally much more austere than the Divination records.

I agree completely, at least as far as the first two Divination albums
and half of _Akasha_.

>If you're interested in this vein, I'd especially recommend the
>Laswell/Harris _Somnific Flux_ and the Laswell/Sharp _Visitation_.
>Divination's _Distill_ is also much more austere than the earlier
>Divination records.

I'll second the Laswell/Harris album, also.  I guess "dark ambience" is
probably a good way to describe it. 2 very deep, dark, rumbling pieces.
I think it's a good compliment to Lull's _Cold Summer_. _Visitation_ has
never completely grown on me, though. I'm not quite sure why, to tell
you the truth.

SW
For Sale/Want List and Laswell Discography at
http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Underground/7093


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rich Williams <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Touring summer 1998
Date: 31 May 1998 16:56:28 -0500

Edvin Berntsen wrote:
>
> I'm new to the zorn-list !!!
> I know that John Zorn with his Painkiller will perform at the
> International Jazz Festival in Molde, Norway - July 16. My question is -
> do anybody know if Painkiller will perform somewhere else in Scandinavia
> this summer ??? ...or do you know where to get touring information.
>

Jeff at Axiom posted the following to alt.fan.bill-Laswell



June 20   Ekstasis - Poland
July 4    Praxis - Wallisau Switzerland
July 8    Painkiller - Montreal
July 9    Painkiller - NYC
July 12   Painkiller - North Sea Jazz Festival, Holland
July 16   Painkiller - Molde Festival, Norway
August 1  Sacred System - Expo 98, Portugal
August 26 Bill Laswell/Graham Haynes/Jack DeJohnette/Unamed Guitar
           Player Roncella, Italy
August 28 Ditto, Wallisau
August 29 Ditto, Zurich


Ekstasis: Nicky Skopelitis, Raoul Bjorkenheim, Amina Claudine Myers,
Aiyb
Dieng, Hamid Drake, Graham Haynes, Bill
Sacred System: Same as Ekstasis minus Raoul
Praxis: Buckethead, Bill, Cindy Blackman
Painkiller: John Zorn, Mick Harris, Bill

-



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From:    William York <[e-mail]>
Subject: Selfhaters/recent CDs
Date: 31 May 1998 22:42:18 -0400 (EDT)

Does anybody have an opinion on the new A. Coleman/ Selfhaters album? The
best word I can come up with is "inconclusive".  Doesn't seem to start,
end, or do anything, but I can hear them playing. Oh well.

Some recent for me CDs
Tim Berne/M. Formanek/J. Hirschfield: Loose Cannon - great tunes, great
 playing
Gerry Hemingway 4tet: Johnny's Corner Song - only avvail. at shows and
 thru his website, but its great, I like it better than the European band
FJF (Vandermark/Gustafson/Kessler/Hunt): Blow Horn - Pretty much straight
 ahead (well...) and it rocks, but I have to say I prefer to Vandermark to
 Gustafson's painful sound most of the time
Brotzman/Gania/Drake: WELS conncert - This has Brotzmann playing more
 subdued than I'm used to, a relative description of course.  This is
 really something else.  Can anyone compare this to "Die Like a Dog" in
 terms of Brotzmann's playing?
Microscopic 7tet: Offbeat Glory- I found this on used vinyl, light but
 good.  Anyone hear the reissued CD yet?

That's all for now.  WY


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From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: James Blood Ulmer, Christian Marclay interviews
Date: 01 Jun 1998 00:34:27 -0400

Perfect Sound Forever wrote:

> In the latest edition of Perfect Sound Forever
> <http://www.furious.com/perfect>, you'll find (among other things)

[SNIP]

And in the latest edition of The Wire (June 1998), you'll find a glowing
recommendation of Perfect Sound Forever which goes a little something like
this...

"This eclectic American site - named after the early marketing tagline for CDs
propagated by Sony and Philips - is the business.  Check the What's New page:
interviews with John Fahey, The Fall, and Neu!'s Michael Rother; and a
perceptive critical swipe at the limitations of so-called 'experimental' 90s
post-rock.  The PSF archive is a vast store of Q&A interviews and thinkpieces.
Some examples of the latter: 'African Instruments: How They Changed America';
'Music as a Deadly Weapon'; 'Deep in the Heart of Tuva'; 'The DJ as Shaman.'  An
overview of French rock by Matthew Martens accuses The Wire, among others, of
ignoring the subject - obviously he didn't catch our survey of current Gallic
avant rock (The Wire 165).  The editorial team also runs an unofficial but
comprehensive Howlin' Wolf site."

Just felt like sharing.  Nice work, Jason.

Steve Smith
[e-mail]


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From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Touring summer 1998
Date: 01 Jun 1998 00:46:22 -0400

Rich Williams wrote:

> Jeff at Axiom posted the following to alt.fan.bill-Laswell

[bitchin' list of Laswell activities snipped]

Damn, Jeff, don't you post 'round here anymore?

Steve Smith
[e-mail]


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