ftp.xmission.com/2014.06.ftp.xmission.com.tar/ftp.xmission.com/pub/lists/zorn-list/archive/zorn-list.200203

Internet Message Format | 2002-03-31 | 1MB

From: "carlos torres" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: new fella' thankyou's/ New Model Army
Date: 28 Feb 2002 23:12:22 -0800

i like new model army, really good "post punk" band, with a great great
album "No Rest for the Wicked"...hey since ive gone on a post punk tangent
here...what are some of the list favorite "post punk/art punk" bands...im
sure gang of four, wire, joy division will top most lists, but im curious as
to what obscure bands some of the more "in the know" members will list.
(like  this heat or 23 skidoo!!)


>From: "gorilla thing" <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: new fella' thankyou's/ New Model Army
>Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 15:57:05 -0800
>
>Hello,
>
>thank you all for the recommendations, I'm doing some fishing to find out
>your results.
>since it seems most of the Zornies are huge music fans, what is your take
>on New Model Army?
>One of my favorites since high school that continue to bash out great
>music.
>
>Thanks to all for their help.
>
>Chad
>
>_________________________________________________________________
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>
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From: Tosh <[e-mail]>
Subject: Pete Shelley & Associates
Date: 28 Feb 2002 23:27:10 -0800

I don't know about post-punk, but for sure any project that has to do
with Pete Shelley of the Buzzcocks - plus I am a huge fan of Billy
MacKenzie (Associates).
--
Tosh Berman
TamTam Books
http://www.tamtambooks.com

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From: "Marcel Kranendonk" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Utrecht
Date: 01 Mar 2002 13:38:50 -0800

Whenever you are in the Utrecht-The Netherlands aeria the upcoming SJU
Festival might be interesting:

Friday march 15:
Simon Nabatov Trio
Zapp! plus guests
Don Byron Sextet: "MORE MUSIC FOR SIX MUSICIANS"

saturday march 16
Ellery Eskelin/Jim Black/Andrea Parkins
DDJackson Trio
Marc Ribot y Los Cubanos Postizos

sunday march 17:
Seafood
Wayne Horvitz Zony Mash

Kind regards,

Marcel Kranendonk

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From: William Crump <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: gamelan
Date: 01 Mar 2002 06:39:05 -0800 (PST)

Joseph Zitt recommended some gamelan:

>>There's also a very good triple disc,
"The Bali Sessions", produced by Mickey Hart on
Rykodisc. <<

I second the recommendation for this one. I appreciate
that Hart went to Bali strictly to record the local
musicians, and not to play or influence music. Good
liner notes, too.

Evan Ziporyn's "Gamelan Galak Tika" is an interesting
new-music-composer approach to gamelan, as well. New
World Records 80565-2.

William Crump

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From: Dan Given <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: mini LP
Date: 01 Mar 2002 07:37:29 -0800


> >mini LP's are cd packages made to look just
> >like, well, mini lp's.
>
> oh. yeah. i like those. stupid name for them, tho,
> yeah?

Seems to be a name only used by companies like Verve and BlueNote who are hung up on reissues and nostalgia.
Haven't seen the term used by OKKA, who've been using this type of sleeve for several years.




Find the best deals on the web at AltaVista Shopping!
http://www.shopping.altavista.com

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From: "Steve Smith" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Calling William York
Date: 01 Mar 2002 12:11:34 -0500

Hi all:

Sorry for the all-points bulletin. Will, drop me a line privately when you
have a moment.

Steve Smith
[e-mail]
NP - Beethoven, Violin Concerto - Fritz Kreisler, BSOO/Blech (Naxos)


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From: Chris Selvig <[e-mail]>
Subject: Mini-LPs
Date: 01 Mar 2002 13:45:24 -0800

Mini-LP is also used to refer to 12" records of the shortish variety,
though I think "EP" does an adequate job in that arena.  And as a former
retailer, I have to say that the oversized CD packages are a giant pain in
the ass.

Chris Selvig


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From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Mini-LPs
Date: 01 Mar 2002 13:46:38 -0800

on 3/1/02 1:45 PM, Chris Selvig at [e-mail] wrote:

> Mini-LP is also used to refer to 12" records of the shortish variety,
> though I think "EP" does an adequate job in that arena.  And as a former
> retailer, I have to say that the oversized CD packages are a giant pain in
> the ass.
>
> Chris Selvig
>

in the early 80s, IRS Records had the annoying 10" mini-lp with the
odd-shaped cover.

sh


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From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Mini-LPs
Date: 01 Mar 2002 18:00:26 -0600

On Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 01:46:38PM -0800, skip Heller wrote:

> in the early 80s, IRS Records had the annoying 10" mini-lp with the
> odd-shaped cover.

Wow, that's one for the wayback machine. It was the Klark Kent record,
right?

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
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From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Mini-LPs
Date: 01 Mar 2002 15:31:13 -0800

on 3/1/02 4:00 PM, Joseph Zitt at [e-mail] wrote:

>
> Wow, that's one for the wayback machine. It was the Klark Kent record,
> right?

Yes.  And a Squeeze one, one by the Reds, and, I believe, one by Skafish.

sh


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From: "Steve Smith" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Mini-LPs
Date: 01 Mar 2002 20:58:56 -0500

Epic did a few of these, as well. I had one by Cheap Trick ('Found All the
Parts,' I think) and one by the Clash (the very fine 'Black Market Clash').
Columbia/Epic called them Nu-Disks, though.

Steve Smith
[e-mail]
(P.S. Thanks to everyone who provided pointers to the Hong Kong DVD of the
'Twin Peaks' pilot, which I finally got around to ordering... I'd forgotten
that our man David Slusser had an editing credit on that...)

-----Original Message-----
[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of skip Heller
Sent: Friday, March 01, 2002 6:31 PM
Cc: Chris Selvig; [e-mail]


on 3/1/02 4:00 PM, Joseph Zitt at [e-mail] wrote:

>
> Wow, that's one for the wayback machine. It was the Klark Kent record,
> right?

Yes.  And a Squeeze one, one by the Reds, and, I believe, one by Skafish.


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From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Mini-LPs
Date: 01 Mar 2002 19:15:03 -0800

on 3/1/02 5:58 PM, Steve Smith at [e-mail] wrote:

> Epic did a few of these, as well. I had one by Cheap Trick ('Found All the
> Parts,' I think) and one by the Clash (the very fine 'Black Market Clash').
> Columbia/Epic called them Nu-Disks, though.
>
> Steve Smith

Not just the Clash and Cheao Trick, but let us not foret Propaganda, New
Musik, and those one or two other deathless new wave bands that found out
the hard way that it taeks more than just 10" and a skinny tie to stay in
business.

sh


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Gamelan
Date: 01 Mar 2002 23:46:10 EST


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The classical composer Lou Harrison has written a number of pieces based on,
or containing, gamelan.  You can usually recognize them by their titles
(containing the word "gamelan").  Those that I have heard are well worth
seeking out and compare favorably to "authentic" gamelan, at least to these
Western ears.

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Verdana" LANG="0">The classical composer Lou Harrison has written a number of pieces based on, or containing, gamelan.  You can usually recognize them by their titles (containing the word "gamelan").  Those that I have heard are well worth seeking out and compare favorably to "authentic" gamelan, at least to these Western ears.</FONT></HTML>

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From: "Arthur Gadney" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Frith + Bailey
Date: 02 Mar 2002 12:22:06 +0000

Hello.

Did Massacre just play in New York? Was it good??

Did Fred Frith's Maybe Monday group just release a new CD called "Digital
Wildlife"?? Is it a bit more electronic/studio manipulative?? Is it good?

And what on earth is going on here...!?:

"April 23rd: Derek Bailey: "Ballads" cd on Tzadik"

Thanx.

NP: Jim O'Rourke: "Insignificance" (why do I love this?)
NR: http://www.edge.org/


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From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Efr=E9n=20del=20Valle?= <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fwd: Frith + Bailey
Date: 02 Mar 2002 14:54:02 +0100 (CET)


> NP: Jim O'Rourke: "Insignificance" (why do I love
> this?)

Very good question, Arthur! :-)

Best,

EfrΘn del Valle
n.p: Tim Berne "Open, Coma"

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From: Herb Levy <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Game Theory
Date: 02 Mar 2002 08:14:37 -0600

Clint Nation <[e-mail]>

>Mr. Zitt and Mr. Levy,
>There doesn't have to be a winner or loser in a noncompetitive game.
>Also, the fact that there "rules" (once again set out by Mr. Zorn)
>implies that the choices the players makes are not arbitrary.  However,
>as in real life, or in baseball, people are free to play within this
>rules.  I realize that Mr. Zorn's game pieces are like "real" games with
>sets of rules, in which each individual player plays within these
>rules.
>    I realize now that I may have been asking to much when I asked which
>peices actually worked out.  However it may not be to much to ask which
>pieces actually followed the structure of the game and which strategies
>where available to the players?  In addition, what are the rules that
>Mr. Zorn set up for some of these game(are they available anywhere)?
>I realize that this discussion may not be considered in the realm of
>game theory(yet!!!) but given this information I will be able to model
>the interactions between the musicians and model the game more
>formally(possibly using game theory).
>If you have an more information please feel free to add a comment.....
>P.S. Thank you Mr. Zitt and Mr. Levy for your response.
>P.P.S.  I am writing my undergraduate honors essay(mathematics) on
>modelling musical interactions using game theory.....I figured the best
>place to start would be Mr. Zorn's Cobra.
>XQuiQ

In general, the rules seem to have more to do with how subsets of
musicians from a larger ensemble are selected for group or solo
improvisations within a piece and how they interact with other
musicians who may already be playing (whether they interrupt,
respond, ignore, contrast, etc.). In some of the earliest games there
are (very) small composed gestures for musicians to play, but for the
most part, it's about groupings. Figuring out this aspect of the
works from recordings alone can be difficult, though.

Because there are several recordings, Cobra may be a good place to
start, IF you can get access to the rules, which do float around
among players (there used to be folks on the list that had them).

But the CD set The Parachute Years has some good recordings of
earlier games (Lacrosse, Hockey, Pool, and Archery) and some
anecdotal discussions of the development of the works. Unfortunately,
it lacks most of the score excerpts that were printed with the
original LP releases.

If you can get hold of the LPs it would probably be helpful. I recall
the score for Hockey as being very clear, because it's pretty much
about three players rotating among a small gamut of distinct sounds
and there are a lot of recorded takes available.

The CDs of Archery include a list of events (which was previously
available with the LP release) that might be useful, but most of this
kind of material from the LPs is not reproduced in the re-issues.

Good luck.


--
Herb Levy
Mappings on Antenna Internet Radio
<http://www.antennaradio/avant/mappings/>
[e-mail]

Mappings  P O Box 9369  Forth Wort, TX 76147  USA

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From: "Alan Kayser" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fuji anti-semitism
Date: 02 Mar 2002 11:40:14 -0500

>-----Original Message-----

>
>A letter from Professor Earl Prohofsky, Purdue University, Dept. of Physics
>Sorry if this is a duplicate for you, but I feel it is important enough to
>
>forward to everyone.   Sandy
>
>"Fuji Anti-Semitism"
>
>  Fuji Co. removed Israel from its complimentary world map that they give
>to their customers with the purchase. Yes, in Fuji stores abroad you
>receive the world map without Israel!!! According to Fuji, we just don't
>exist...
>
>It is most likely done to entice Arab customers. I am sure, that map
>without Israel makes Arabs happy, very happy... It is a very dangerous
>precedent - it looks like an indication that Arab calls for boycott of
>Israel start bearing fruits. Many Israelis today called for boycott of all
>Fuji products - film, cameras, batteries etc (see readers' responses in
>today's Yediot Aharonot). Luckily - there are alternatives: film - Kodak,
>Agfa, cameras - Nikon, Olympus, Samsung, Canon etc.
>
>I personally consider this Fuji's action the worst possible insult for our
>country and for me personally, and, until they apologize and re-print the
>map, I'm never buying anything made by Fuji and encourage you to do the
>same! Also, please spread the word around - I believe that Jewish buying
>power can do wonders. Even 3-5% reduction in Fuji's sales will cause them
>to reconsider. Also important to note - Subaru is Fuji. It somewhat narrows
>down selection of cars, but I still won't be able not to take it into
>consideration when the time comes.
>
>
>
>  Sincerely yours,  E. W. Prohofsky  Purdue University  Department of
>Physics  W. Lafayette, IN 47907-1396  Tel: [phone] Fax: [phone]
>
>



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From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Fuji anti-semitism
Date: 02 Mar 2002 11:57:20 -0600

Before those who believe everything they read go into a panicked
boycott, read the debunking by the Ant-Defamation League at
http://www.adl.org/rumors/fuji_rumors.asp

On Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 11:40:14AM -0500, Alan Kayser wrote:
> >-----Original Message-----
>
> >
> >A letter from Professor Earl Prohofsky, Purdue University, Dept. of Physics
> >Sorry if this is a duplicate for you, but I feel it is important enough to
> >
> >forward to everyone.   Sandy

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


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From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Game Theory
Date: 02 Mar 2002 12:06:42 -0600

On Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 08:14:37AM -0600, Herb Levy wrote:

> But the CD set The Parachute Years has some good recordings of
> earlier games (Lacrosse, Hockey, Pool, and Archery) and some
> anecdotal discussions of the development of the works. Unfortunately,
> it lacks most of the score excerpts that were printed with the
> original LP releases.

I believe the issue of Materiali Sonori on Zorn contains some tiny
scores.  You can get it from (among other places)
http://www.artist-shop.com/materiali/index.htm

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


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From: "Alan Kayser" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fuji anti-semitism
Date: 02 Mar 2002 12:30:14 -0500


The ADL provides an answer at

http://www.adl.org/rumors/fuji_rumors.asp

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From: " A.VanValin" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Fuji anti-semitism
Date: 02 Mar 2002 12:03:17 -0800


----- Original Message -----


> >-----Original Message-----
>
> >
> >A letter from Professor Earl Prohofsky...[etc]

Another valuable net-lore fact checking resource:
http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/blfuji-map.htm?terms=fuji.

have fun,
van


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: New Tim Berne (NO JZ)
Date: 02 Mar 2002 20:18:30 EST

This just in from Screwgunrecords.com:


I am proud to bring you the best Screwgun newsletter ever.  Here's why:

SCIENCE FRICTION now available!
*The new quartet album, featuring Tim Berne, Marc Ducret, Craig Taborn and
Tom Rainey, is on sale right now at www.screwgunrecords.com.  See artwork,
hear samples, and make your move.  Two complete tracks are available for free
download as MP3's.

OPEN, COMA still available!
*Pick up a copy of the two-disc big band album, and find out what ensues when
Tim, Marc Ducret, Herb Robertson and the Copenhagen Art Ensemble play songs
longer than every Olympic Speed Skating event combined.

TOM RAINEY interview!
*Have you been reading these interviews?  If not, I am sad for you.  All-star
interviewer Nate Chinen brings another great installment, this time with Tom
Rainey.    And there are more on the web site.

NEW BYRAM graphics!
*Cardboard enters the 21st century


Aaron
Executive Vice Luge, Screwgun Records


By the way (this is me, not the Screwgun newsletter), I saw Hank Roberts
playing with a band of four last night in Ithaca.  It was not what I expected
at all.  He and the other members sang quite a bit and it was more
song/spacejam-centered than jazz.  His playing was excellent -- very diverse
with lots of gorgeous, squawky solos.  The band itself was funky and tight,
the drummer (name escapes me) being especially impressive.  If you're in the
Ithaca area you might want to check him/them out.  If you're not (which
accounts for about 99.99% of you), I highly recommend his discs which are
currently being sold on www.hankrobertsmusic.com.

Cheers,
Tom

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From: Perfect Sound Forever <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fwd: Oskar Sala R.I.P.
Date: 03 Mar 2002 10:26:48 -0500


>Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 07:19:25 -0800
>From: Thomas Ziegler
>
>Hello unto you.
>
>      It is with great sadness that I announce the passing of Oskar Sala,
>one of our oldest creators and one of the founding fathers of
>experimental music.  From the Associated Press:
>
>"BERLIN (AP) =97 Oskar Sala, the German composer and physicist whose novel
>musical instrument produced the sound effects for Alfred Hitchcock's
>"The Birds," died Tuesday, February 26.  He was 91.
>
>Born in the eastern German town of Greiz, Sala is known for developing
>and mastering the trautonium, billed as the world's first electronic
>musical instrument on its invention in 1929.
>
>He performed with the Berlin Philharmonic several times, and the
>instrument =97 a precursor to the synthesizer =97 was frequently used in
>German ads in the 1940s and 1950s.
>
>The trautonium was most famously employed to produce the bird calls in
>Hitchcock's 1963 film.  Few people realized the cacophonous calls on the
>film were produced electronically.
>
>Sala donated his original Mixtur-Trautonium to the German Museum for
>Contemporary Technology in Bonn in 1995."


Perfect Sound Forever
online music magazine
[e-mail]
http://www.furious.com/perfect


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From: "Duke Wong" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Massacre,  Europe Recs
Date: 03 Mar 2002 12:47:52 -0500

Hi All,

    The Massacre gig last MOnday at the knit was sick, high energy and chuck
full of intensity, which led to 3 encores before the trio retired to get
ready for set two.

     Who shows up for about half of the second set with his alto but Mr.
Zorn himself, adding his tricks and sounds to the group. Of course the tunes
and first encore Zorn sat in for were more free improv and less composed
than when the trio were left to do the massacre thing but, man, was I glad I
was there for both sets!!

     On another subject:

     I am currently in Europe and am looking for good live musical
recommendations in the towns of Salzburg, Munich, and Venice for this week
til next Sunday (10th). A private e-mail is greatly appreciated.

     Duke




Hello.

Did Massacre just play in New York? Was it good??

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From: "Sh" <[e-mail]>
Subject:  Tribal Tech/JLJ shows
Date: 03 Mar 2002 13:56:51 -0500

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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    charset="iso-8859-1"
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'Lo Folks.  I'm looking for a couple of [excellent sounding] live shows.
Any Tribal Tech shows that have Rocket Science material on them, =
preferably
from the current European tour.  Also, any Jef Lee Johnson.  This guy is =
not
really well known.  I came across him from James Carter's "Layin' in the
Cut," which is co-guitared with Ribot.  He's got a  few solo releases =
which
are all super, and there are some live tracks on some of them, leaving =
me
drueling for some live content.  I know he played the Knitting Factory =
on
April 17 and 23 of 1999.  Anyone have this show, or any other?
   Drop me a reply if you can help me out, and I'll send you my list.
Thanks.


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<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>'Lo Folks.  I'm looking for a couple of [excellent =
sounding]=20
live shows.<BR>Any Tribal Tech shows that have Rocket Science material =
on them,=20
preferably<BR>from the current European tour.  Also, any Jef Lee=20
Johnson.  This guy is not<BR>really well known.  I came across =
him=20
from James Carter's "Layin' in the<BR>Cut," which is co-guitared with=20
Ribot.  He's got a  few solo releases which<BR>are all super, =
and=20
there are some live tracks on some of them, leaving me<BR>drueling for =
some live=20
content.  I know he played the Knitting Factory on<BR>April 17 and =
23 of=20
1999.  Anyone have this show, or any other?<BR>   Drop me =
a reply=20
if you can help me out, and I'll send you my =
list.<BR>Thanks.<BR></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_019C_01C1C2BB.44EADC80--

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From: Alan Lankin <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: New Tim Berne (NO JZ)
Date: 03 Mar 2002 14:08:03 -0500

Well, Hank Roberts was also on Phil Haynes's Free Country, which IIRC
was kind of open-ended song oriented, if still instrumental.

Alan Lankin

--
Jazzmatazz
http://jazzmatazz.home.att.net
[e-mail]




[e-mail] wrote:


>
> By the way, I saw Hank Roberts
> playing with a band of four last night in Ithaca.  It was not what I expected
> at all.  He and the other members sang quite a bit and it was more
> song/spacejam-centered than jazz.  His playing was excellent -- very diverse
> with lots of gorgeous, squawky solos.  The band itself was funky and tight,
> the drummer (name escapes me) being especially impressive.



-



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From: Alan Lankin <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: minilp
Date: 03 Mar 2002 14:12:46 -0500

Verve is now calling them "LPR"s.  Maybe that stands for "LP replica."

None of these LPRs will have bonus tracks.

Like many, I'm torn between the ugly look/easy replacement of jewel
cases and the nicer asthetics/damagability of alternate packaging...

Alan Lankin

--
Jazzmatazz
http://jazzmatazz.home.att.net
[e-mail]




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From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Tribal Tech/JLJ shows
Date: 03 Mar 2002 11:35:29 -0800

> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

--MS_Mac_OE_3098000130_900434_MIME_Part
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on 3/3/02 10:56 AM, Sh at [e-mail] wrote:




'Lo Folks.  I'm looking for a couple of [excellent sounding] live shows.
Any Tribal Tech shows that have Rocket Science material on them, preferably
from the current European tour.  Also, any Jef Lee Johnson.  This guy is not
really well known.  I came across him from James Carter's "Layin' in the
Cut," which is co-guitared with Ribot.  He's got a  few solo releases which
are all super, and there are some live tracks on some of them, leaving me
drueling for some live content.  I know he played the Knitting Factory on
April 17 and 23 of 1999.  Anyone have this show, or any other?
  Drop me a reply if you can help me out, and I'll send you my list.
Thanks.


You might wanna check the Dreambox Media website for additional Jef Lee
Johnson info.  He's notorious for not playing out, but he's played with
Reverie and -- I think -- also recorded with 'em.  Sweetest and most
talented guy in life, but ultimately the least self-assertive.  Every guitar
player in Philly 9with any sense) fears him, but he never shows up anywhere,
so he's almost Bigfoot.

skip h

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<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Re: Tribal Tech/JLJ shows</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
on 3/3/02 10:56 AM, Sh at [e-mail] wrote:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE> <BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
'Lo Folks.  I'm looking for a couple of [excellent sounding] live show=
s.<BR>
Any Tribal Tech shows that have Rocket Science material on them, preferably=
<BR>
from the current European tour.  Also, any Jef Lee Johnson.  This=
 guy is not<BR>
really well known.  I came across him from James Carter's "Layin'=
 in the<BR>
Cut," which is co-guitared with Ribot.  He's got a  few solo=
 releases which<BR>
are all super, and there are some live tracks on some of them, leaving me<B=
R>
drueling for some live content.  I know he played the Knitting Factory=
 on<BR>
April 17 and 23 of 1999.  Anyone have this show, or any other?<BR>
   Drop me a reply if you can help me out, and I'll send you my l=
ist.<BR>
Thanks.<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
You might wanna check the Dreambox Media website for additional Jef Lee Joh=
nson info.  He's notorious for not playing out, but he's played with Re=
verie and -- I think -- also recorded with 'em.  Sweetest and most tale=
nted guy in life, but ultimately the least self-assertive.  Every guita=
r player in Philly 9with any sense) fears him, but he never shows up anywher=
e, so he's almost Bigfoot.<BR>
<BR>
skip h
</BODY>
</HTML>


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From: Michael Brooker <[e-mail]>
Subject: Music Composition Software
Date: 03 Mar 2002 11:33:15 -0800 (PST)

Hello,

I'm sure this question has been posed many times, but
I was curious to know if anyone was aware of competent
music production software, specifically used
especially with found sound processing.

Any suggestions would be great, thanks.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - sign up for Fantasy Baseball
http://sports.yahoo.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rich Williams <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Tribal Tech/JLJ shows
Date: 03 Mar 2002 14:52:10 -0500

>
>
>
>'Lo Folks.  I'm looking for a couple of [excellent sounding] live shows.
>Any Tribal Tech shows that have Rocket Science material on them, preferably
>from the current European tour.  Also, any Jef Lee Johnson.  This guy is not
>really well known.  I came across him from James Carter's "Layin' in the
>Cut," which is co-guitared with Ribot.  He's got a  few solo releases which
>are all super, and there are some live tracks on some of them, leaving me
drueling for some live content.

    JLJ  was with Ronald Shannon Jacksons Decoding Society in the
early 90's,
He's on Red Warrior, Raven Roc and Shannon's House.

Rich

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From: "Zachary Steiner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Break Up Music
Date: 03 Mar 2002 20:05:39 -0500

What are some albums/songs that make people feel better when they break
up or are just feeling down?

Thanks
Zach



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From: "Andrew" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Break Up Music
Date: 03 Mar 2002 20:24:50 -0500

> What are some albums/songs that make people feel better when they break
> up or are just feeling down?

It totally depends on what it takes to make you feel better; whether you
want dark, depressing music that you'll empathize with (and vice versa), or
you want cheery, happy music that will pick you up.

Dark, depressing stuff that I like to listen to when I'm filled with
despair:

Leonard Cohen
Joy Division
Nick Drake

Stuff that picks me up because it's happy:

Beat Happening
the Flaming Lips
Wire's "pink flag"
Spiritualized's rendition of "Oh, Happy Day"


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: breakin' up is hard to doo(wop).
Date: 04 Mar 2002 01:00:09 EST


In a message dated 03.03.02 21.43.13, [e-mail] writes:

>Stuff that picks me up because it's happy:
>
>the Flaming Lips

interesting.  the song 'feeling yourself disintegrate' is probably one of the
saddest songs i've ever heard.  although my perennial depressive favourite
songs include:

'a summer wasting' by belle and sebastian
'trust'  by the cure
'end' by the cure (both off of wish)
all of r.e.m.'s 'out of time' (except 'shiny happy people', obviously - but
especially 'country feedback')
elvis costello ballads (especially 'days')
all of robyn hitchcock's 'perspex island'
and while i'm embarassed to admit it
'crash' by dave matthews band...  it's such a pretty song.  it makes me cry.

love,
  k8.  (who has spent a lot of time on this topic for the past ten years.)




---
[.n0thing.is.what.is.sAid.]
k a t e  p e t e r s o n
c o m p o s e r / p e r f o r m e r

http://www.geocities.com/uforbk8/kate.html
http://www.icefoundation.org (roundtable)

-



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From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: breakin' up is hard to doo(wop).
Date: 03 Mar 2002 22:33:34 -0800


BLOOD ON THE TRACKS -- Bob Dylan
"I Loved You Yesterday" -- Lyle Lovett
"Valerie" -- Jackie & the Starlights
IN THE WEE SMALL HOURS -- Sinatra/Riddle
"Lonely Lonely Nights" -- Johnny "Guitar' Watson (If you don't respond to
this, I don't wanna know you)
"Yes It Is" -- Beatles
"Caroline, No" -- Beach Boys

or, if you're good and pissed off:
"She's Your Problem Now" -- Ben Vaughn (his only truly great song, but you
only have to be this great once)
"A Girl Like That" -- NRBQ
"Fool Fool Fool" -- The Clovers
"God Will" -- Lyle Lovett
"Any Way The Wind Blows" -- Mothers Of Invention
"How Could I Be Such A Fool" -- Mothers Of Invention

no stranger to heartbreak --
skip h


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: breakin' up is hard to doo(wop).
Date: 04 Mar 2002 01:33:35 EST


In a message dated 03.04.02 01.30.27, [e-mail] writes:

>"Caroline, No" -- Beach Boys

shit, how could i forget?  don't stop at 'caroline, no', though, let's take
all of pet sounds.  for an ostensibly happy album, that one can be a real
downer.  'sloop john b', anyone?  'wouldn't it be nice'?  i really think
'wouldn't it be nice' is one of the saddest happy songs i've ever heard.
it's so forlorn...  ah, poor brian wilson...  <bemoans the plight of brian
wilson just once more>

k.

---
[.n0thing.is.what.is.sAid.]
k a t e  p e t e r s o n
c o m p o s e r / p e r f o r m e r

http://www.geocities.com/uforbk8/kate.html
http://www.icefoundation.org (roundtable)

-



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From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: breakin' up is hard to doo(wop).
Date: 03 Mar 2002 22:47:14 -0800

on 3/3/02 10:33 PM, [e-mail] at [e-mail] wrote:

>
> shit, how could i forget?  don't stop at 'caroline, no', though, let's take
> all of pet sounds.  for an ostensibly happy album, that one can be a real
> downer.  'sloop john b', anyone?  'wouldn't it be nice'?  i really think
> 'wouldn't it be nice' is one of the saddest happy songs i've ever heard.
> it's so forlorn...  ah, poor brian wilson...  <bemoans the plight of brian
> wilson just once more>
>
> k.

I trhink Brian described the emotional effect of PS best -- "I can't listen
to it without getting into some kind of mood."

sh


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From: aaron chua <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: breakin' up is hard to doo(wop).
Date: 03 Mar 2002 22:56:06 -0800 (PST)


--- skip Heller <[e-mail]> wrote:
> or, if you're good and pissed off:
> "She's Your Problem Now" -- Ben Vaughn (his only
> truly great song, but you
> only have to be this great once)
<snip>
off the top of my head how bout
(i'm not yr) stepping stone by the Monkees(say does
anyone know  of a live version that's countrified and
raw with i recall to sound like strings or guitar
breaking??? not sure that this was done by any
ex-Monkee)
&
don't think twice its alright by dylan




__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - sign up for Fantasy Baseball
http://sports.yahoo.com

-



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From: jason tors <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: breakin' up is hard to doo(wop).
Date: 04 Mar 2002 05:13:35 -0800 (PST)

there are select waits tunes that do it for me, jersey girl, anything
off closing time, the slower tunes off mule. I have a hard time
listening to lyrics, esp waits its usually the sound and feeling that
hit me.




__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - sign up for Fantasy Baseball
http://sports.yahoo.com

-



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: breakin' up is hard to doo(wop).
Date: 04 Mar 2002 11:19:13 EST

should we overlook motley crue's "don't go away mad, just go away"?

;)

a few more -

'dilate' by ani difranco
'hyper-ballad' by bjork (if you read into the lyrics, it's a good angry tune)
'you are the everything' by r.e.m.
'you woke up my neighbourhood' by billy bragg
'sally (would ya be my girl)' by the police
'anna begins' by the counting crows
'euphoria'  by school of fish
'laid' by james (such a sad happy song!)
'out to get you' by james (such a sad SAD song!)
'fake plastic trees' by radiohead
'someone to pull the trigger' by matthew sweet
'the long and winding road' by the beatles
'nothing worth living for' by the violent femmes
'there she goes' by the la's (another sad happy song)

and so many more...

k8.


---
[.n0thing.is.what.is.sAid.]
k a t e  p e t e r s o n
c o m p o s e r / p e r f o r m e r

http://www.geocities.com/uforbk8/kate.html
http://www.icefoundation.org (roundtable)

-



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From: "Sean Westergaard" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Break Up Music
Date: 04 Mar 2002 11:23:33 -0500



>What are some albums/songs that make people feel better when they break
>up or are just feeling down?


this one may or may not be appropriate:

Ben Folds Five-Song for the Dumped   has anyone said it better than this?

i would also echo/expand Skip's suggestion for Mothers of Invention songs to
the entire Cruisin' with Ruben and the Jets album.  it's all greasy in
love/out of love doo-wop

there are also some great pouty early Roxy Music tunes:
In every dream home a heartache
chance meeting
2HB
bitter sweet



enjoy/feel better

sean
-



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: ben folds!
Date: 04 Mar 2002 12:10:08 EST


In a message dated 03.04.02 11.34.42, [e-mail] writes:

>Ben Folds Five-Song for the Dumped   has anyone said it better than this?

how could i forget?

give me my money back / give me my money back you bitch / i want my money
back / and don't forget / to give me back my black t-shirt

<laugh>




---
[.n0thing.is.what.is.sAid.]
k a t e  p e t e r s o n
c o m p o s e r / p e r f o r m e r

http://www.geocities.com/uforbk8/kate.html
http://www.icefoundation.org (roundtable)

-



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Fwd: Break Up Music
Date: 04 Mar 2002 12:32:46 EST


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When i'm down, i listen to Tom Waits because I just like to wallow in my own
greif.


In a message dated 3/3/02 7:06:36 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<< What are some albums/songs that make people feel better when they break
up or are just feeling down?

Thanks
Zach >>



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What are some albums/songs that make people feel better when they break
up or are just feeling down?

Thanks
Zach



-


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From: Perfect Sound Forever <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: breakin' up is hard to doo(wop).
Date: 04 Mar 2002 12:29:50 -0500

I know it's definitely not the regular fare for this list but I'd recommend Ray
Charles' early stuff on ABC records.  I mean, the guy is just so f-ing depressed
and down that you think "Shit, at least my life's not THAT bad!"

Best,
Jason
--
Perfect Sound Forever
online music magazine
[e-mail]
http://www.furious.com/perfect



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From: Dan Given <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: breakin' up is hard to do (wop).
Date: 04 Mar 2002 09:59:20 -0800

> From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
> Subject: Re: breakin' up is hard to doo(wop).
>
> BLOOD ON THE TRACKS -- Bob Dylan
> "I Loved You Yesterday" -- Lyle Lovett
>
> or, if you're good and pissed off:
> "God Will" -- Lyle Lovett

Lovett's "L.A County" may also be required listening for anyone who has just been dumped and is contemplating revenge.

Dan


Find the best deals on the web at AltaVista Shopping!
http://www.shopping.altavista.com

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From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: breakin' up is hard to do (wop).
Date: 04 Mar 2002 10:17:07 -0800

on 3/4/02 9:59 AM, Dan Given at [e-mail] wrote:

>
> Lovett's "L.A County" may also be required listening for anyone who has just
> been dumped and is contemplating revenge.
>
> Dan

actually, all of PONTIAC got me through a divorce.  "If I Had A Boat" is
definitely the best song about nautical independance and Lone Ranger
abandonment I've ever heard.  And "She's No Lady" is misogyny as art, to be
sure.

skip h


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From: Ricardo Reis <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Break Up Music
Date: 04 Mar 2002 18:24:26 +0000 (WET)


    i just point to "excerpts from a love circus" by Lisa Germano.
She's sad, weird and darkly happy (meaning i can't get really down by
hearing it and come up in the other end of the song sadly happy... like
i'm the good guy who did the right thing and didn't enjoy it kind of
compensation). it's on 4AD...

                 Ricardo Reis

                "Non Serviam"


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From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: and the opposite of not sex
Date: 04 Mar 2002 10:27:56 -0800

Yep, the opposite of breaking up, when a young man's thought turn to gettin'
it regular... What records do you put on when spring has sprung and you're
mood is elevated?

Last time I enjoyed this phenomenon, it was just about anything by Los
Lobos, for which my then-new girlfriend (now wife) shared a deep love (and
between us had all their records, which is infinitely more useful than an
amulet).

Also, a lot of old school rhythm'n'blues (Bloodstone, Grover stuff on Kudu,
Earth, Wind, and Fire etc).  There's something about that period of R&B that
is perfect for long car trips and so forth, which we took a lot of early on.

So -- what does the list list as best "new love in bloom" music?

sh


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: breakin' up is hard to do (wop).
Date: 04 Mar 2002 13:31:02 EST

Best break up album for me has always been Elvis Costello's "King of
America."

"Well the way that I feel is no longer news, you know my love and how to
refuse it, 'cause you know where the door is and how to use it...oh you know
you do."

or,

Our Little Angel

This is the place where I made my best mistakes
This is the place even angels don't understand
I've seen the disappointment in her face
And the collection of engagement rings on her right hand
She sits alone apart from the crowd
In a white dress she wears like a question mark
Friends speak of her fondly
Enemies just think out loud
You think you're man enough to please her
And you're fool enough to start
You're not going to do a thing to our little angel
There's nothing you're thinking tonight that tomorrow won't change Now the
cabaret is frozen and the laughter comes in cans
And the lonely hearts club clientele don't know what to do with their hands
You think that you'll be sweet to her but everybody knows
That you're the marshmallow valentine that got stuck on her clothes
But you're not going to do a thing to our little angel
There's nothing you're thinking tonight that tomorrow won't change So you mix
your drinks and words
You make bad jokes you make bad time
The floors are there to walk over
The walls are there to climb
You swear that you'll never go back again once you're inside
You're never the bridegroom she's always the bride
And you're not going to do a thing to our little angel
There's nothing you're thinking tonight that tomorrow won't change You'll
come in a sweetheart and you'll go out a stranger
Well you try to love her but she's so contrary
Like a chainsaw running through a dictionary
So get your mind off the sweet behind of our little angel
You're not going to do a thing
You're not going to do a thing
You're not going to do a thing to our little angel





______________________________________________________________________
Phil Spector: "I've been listening to a lot of Andrew Lloyd Webber lately,
and enjoying it. Someday I hope to set his stuff to music."


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From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Break Up Music
Date: 04 Mar 2002 10:31:55 -0800


UPBEAT:

    The Divine Comedy: "The Pop Singer's Fear of the Pollen Count"

DOWNBEAT

    The Blue Nile: "A Walk Across the Rooftops"
    Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds: "The Carny"
    Georges Brassens: "La Non-Demande en Mariage"
    Robert Wyatt: "Sea Song"
    American Music Club: "Ex-Girlfriend"
    The Beatles: "The Long and Winding Road"
    Randy Newman: "Baltimore"
    Elton John: "Love Song"

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From: Maurice Rickard <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: and the opposite of not sex
Date: 04 Mar 2002 13:52:09 -0500

At 10:27 AM -0800 3/4/02, skip Heller wrote:
>So -- what does the list list as best "new love in bloom" music?

There are some wonderful tunes (mostly Barry Phipps's) on the
Coctails' _Peel_:  "Miss Maple" and "Postcard" come to mind.  Dizzy's
"Say Eh!" has grabbed us lately, too.  And you can't go wrong with
Big Star: "Life Is Right," "When My Baby's Beside Me," "September
Gurls," many, many others.   Late Chet Baker can do it as well, when
his voice got that smokier hint of pathos.  The Ramones "Oh Oh I Love
Her So" is prime, as is lots of Beat Happening...and there are some
great tunes in the Fuck ouvre (like "Monkey Doll," "Italy," and
"Laundry Shop" from _Conduct_).   I've noticed, however, that most of
my collection is either noisy or sad, even though I'm not.
--
Maurice Rickard
http://mauricerickard.com/

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From: "William W. Schonbein" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Los Angeles, march 3-9?
Date: 24 Feb 2002 11:01:11 -0600 (CST)


hello, i'll be in LA from march 3 till the 9th.  a glance of the knitting
factory hollywood website was even more dissapointing than usual.  can
anyone make any other suggestions for improv/jazz events (ranging from
electroacoustic to good straightish jazz e.g., chris potter) ?  any
suggestions much appreciated.  thanks,
whit
[e-mail]






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From: patRice <[e-mail]>
Subject: Bye For Now... :-(
Date: 24 Feb 2002 21:58:24 +0100


Hello y'all...

Feel like saying goodbye before unsubscribing tomorrow or Tuesday.

Even though I am a lucky person, since this coming Friday I'll be off
travelling for (hopefully quite) some time, I know I'll miss a lot of
your mails and useful information...

Can't wait until I re-subscribe again!

Take care all of you!

Yours,
patRice

np: Underground Resistance, various 12"s
nr: Alex Kerr, Dogs & Demons






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From: [e-mail]
Subject: music to fall in love to.
Date: 04 Mar 2002 14:56:56 EST

the best album i ever fell in love to:

music for airports (ambient 1) - brian eno.

what a great album to stay up all night and talk and kiss and make up dreams about the future the two of you will share when you get older...  simply transporting...

another:

if you're feeling sinister - belle and sebastian.

i can pinpoint very brilliantly happy times to this album...  maybe that's why i don't listen to it so much anymore.

suddenly depressed,
  k8.  :)

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Blue Nile
Date: 04 Mar 2002 15:36:38 EST


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In a message dated 3/4/2002 1:32:19 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:


> DOWNBEAT
>
>     The Blue Nile: "A Walk Across the Rooftops"
>

Well, I don't know about this one...Ever since I first heard it when it first
came out (and I still own it) I always found this album to be beautifully
stark.

Dale.

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  COLOR="#0000a0" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SCRIPT" FACE="Comic Sans MS" LANG="0"><B>In a message dated 3/4/2002 1:32:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, [e-mail] writes:<BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></B><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">DOWNBEAT<BR>
<BR>
    The Blue Nile: "A Walk Across the Rooftops"<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0000a0" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SCRIPT" FACE="Comic Sans MS" LANG="0"><B><BR>
Well, I don't know about this one...Ever since I first heard it when it first came out (and I still own it) I always found this album to be beautifully stark.<BR>
<BR>
Dale.</B></FONT></HTML>

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From: "s~Z" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Los Angeles, march 3-9?
Date: 04 Mar 2002 14:21:42 -0800



Bill Roper opening for Carl Stone in Eagle Rock was sensational
last night. Did you find that one?



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From: "Steve Smith" <[e-mail]>
Subject: New Frisell project, NYC, June 7-8
Date: 04 Mar 2002 17:41:47 -0500

June 7, 8 2002
Bill Frisell: Mysterio Simpatico
Music by Bill Frisell, art by Jim Woodring
Commissioned by Arts at St. Ann's
Featuring Bill Frisell, guitar, Jenny Scheinman, violin, Ron Miles, trumpet,
Jim Woodring, charcoal

Arts at St. Ann's has commissioned guitarist Bill Frisell's new Mysterio
Simpatico, which he will perform June 7 and 8 at St. Ann's Warehouse.
Frisell's guitar style combines the heartland sensibility of American roots
music, the improvisational flights of jazz, the energy of rock and the
compositional power of Copland, Ives and Stravinsky. Inspired by award
winning cartoonist Jim Woodring and the multi-faceted musicians, violinist
Jenny Scheinman and trumpeter Ron Miles, Frisell brings his protean style to
this multimedia suite, performing live to Woodring's projected landscape of
animations, collages and crisp, moody tone drawings.

Fri, Sat 8pm    $30

For tickets, call Arts at St. Ann's, 718-858-2424

Steve Smith
[e-mail]
(I have no connection to St. Ann's, just wanted to pass this along...)


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dan Given <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: breakin' up is hard to do (wop).
Date: 04 Mar 2002 14:55:14 -0800

On Mon, 04 March 2002, [e-mail] wrote:

>
> Best break up album for me has always been Elvis Costello's "King of
> America."

One of my favorite albums of all time, but brings back so many memories of a girl I once knew I can hardly listen to it...


Find the best deals on the web at AltaVista Shopping!
http://www.shopping.altavista.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Steve Smith" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: breakin' up is hard to do (wop).
Date: 04 Mar 2002 17:59:43 -0500

It's a sad thing when personal cirmcumstances force you to more or less
abandon a piece of music that's been important to you. Thankfully, when my
marriage ended, the only things I lost were Barenaked Ladies and Moxy
Fruvous. I find that I'm doing just fine without both.

I don't have a "best breakup album," personally, but I've noticed that every
time a relationship has hit the rocks in recent memory, I've tended to
wallow in American Music Club discs. Sometimes I have a hard time listening
to them when I'm in a better frame of mind now, even though 'California,'
'Everclear' and 'Mercury' are three of my all-time favorites.

Steve Smith
[e-mail]

-----Original Message-----
[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Dan Given
Sent: Monday, March 04, 2002 5:55 PM
Cc: [e-mail]; [e-mail]


On Mon, 04 March 2002, [e-mail] wrote:

>
> Best break up album for me has always been Elvis Costello's "King of
> America."

One of my favorite albums of all time, but brings back so many memories of a
girl I once knew I can hardly listen to it...


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: New Frisell project, NYC, June 7-8
Date: 04 Mar 2002 15:11:30 -0800


On Mon, 4 Mar 2002 17:41:47 -0500  "Steve Smith" wrote:
>
> June 7, 8 2002
> Bill Frisell: Mysterio Simpatico
> Music by Bill Frisell, art by Jim Woodring
> Commissioned by Arts at St. Ann's
> Featuring Bill Frisell, guitar, Jenny Scheinman, violin, Ron Miles, trumpet,
> Jim Woodring, charcoal
>
> Arts at St. Ann's has commissioned guitarist Bill Frisell's new Mysterio
> Simpatico, which he will perform June 7 and 8 at St. Ann's Warehouse.
> Frisell's guitar style combines the heartland sensibility of American roots
> music, the improvisational flights of jazz, the energy of rock and the
> compositional power of Copland, Ives and Stravinsky. Inspired by award
> winning cartoonist Jim Woodring and the multi-faceted musicians, violinist
> Jenny Scheinman and trumpeter Ron Miles, Frisell brings his protean style to
> this multimedia suite, performing live to Woodring's projected landscape of
> animations, collages and crisp, moody tone drawings.

Looks like it's gonna be hard to not fall asleep :-).

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: breakin' up is hard to do (wop).
Date: 04 Mar 2002 15:27:44 -0800

on 3/4/02 2:59 PM, Steve Smith at [e-mail] wrote:

> It's a sad thing when personal cirmcumstances force you to more or less
> abandon a piece of music that's been important to you.

 I had to go about eight yrs without Hank Williams for this reason, which
was a loss.

Important advice  -- resist the temptation  to upgrade the musical tastes of
your signifigant others (Steve notwithstanding -- she your ex obviously knew
some stuff already).  Back when I lived in Philly, if you wanted to see
every old girlfriend I ever had, all you had to do was wait for NRBQ, Mose
Allison, or Ahmad Jamal to come to town, and they'd all be there, thoroughly
indoctrinated, grooving hard, and generally with a new boyfriend whose
tastes THEY were seeking to upgrade.  The irony of this was never lost on me
-- I paid too much attention to music and not to the relationship, the
relationship ends, and my taste in music seemed to last forever.

skip h


-



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Break Up Music
Date: 04 Mar 2002 18:25:26 EST

I tend to go for the music that matches the mood- in other words, if I'm upset, the last thing I want to hear is "happy" music.

Therefore, in times of gloom, I heartily recommend Talk Talk's _Laughing Stock_ as an album to cure one's ills.

However I do realize that Mark Hollis' vocals could make some *want* to slit their wrists...

--
=dg=

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Maurice Rickard <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: and the opposite of not sex
Date: 04 Mar 2002 19:24:55 -0500

I'll agree also with Eno as a great soundtrack, although for me it's
_Discreet Music_ and _Another Green World_, both of which I have on
vinyl and sorely need to be replaced.

And I'll point out "Up North Kids" and "Arundel" from Papa M's _Live
 From a Shark Cage_--the former makes me want to rent a convertible
and blast it on the car stereo, once Spring finally arrives.
--
Maurice Rickard
http://mauricerickard.com/

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: and the opposite of not sex
Date: 04 Mar 2002 16:30:44 -0800



On Mon, 4 Mar 2002 19:24:55 -0500  Maurice Rickard wrote:
>
> I'll agree also with Eno as a great soundtrack, although for me it's
> _Discreet Music_ and _Another Green World_, both of which I have on
> vinyl and sorely need to be replaced.

Talking about Eno, somebody is telling me that the soundtrack GRUTZI ELVIS was
planned to be released on a 2xLP, with the second LP being entirely devoted to
Brian Eno!!!

Even stranger, somebody claims to have seen that record...

    Patrice.


*** - GRUTZI ELVIS: various artists

  This record features James Chance and the Contortions, DNA, Brian Eno,
  Policeband, Rosa Yemen, Snatch, Teenage Jesus, Tuxedo Moon.

    1979 - Ze Records (France?), ZE 3302 (LP or 2xLP?)

  Note: this record was never released.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Mads Ruby" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: and the opposite of not sex
Date: 05 Mar 2002 01:42:37 +0100

Patrice wrote:

> Talking about Eno, somebody is telling me that the soundtrack GRUTZI =
ELVIS was
> planned to be released on a 2xLP, with the second LP being entirely =
devoted to
> Brian Eno!!!
>=20
> Even stranger, somebody claims to have seen that record...
>=20
> Patrice.
>=20
> =
-----
>=20
> *** - GRUTZI ELVIS: various artists
>=20
>   This record features James Chance and the Contortions, DNA, Brian =
Eno,
>   Policeband, Rosa Yemen, Snatch, Teenage Jesus, Tuxedo Moon.
>=20
>     1979 - Ze Records (France?), ZE 3302 (LP or 2xLP?)
>=20
>   Note: this record was never released.
>=20
> =
-----
>=20

I used to have a 12" on Ze Records with the 4 tracks by James Chance, =
James White, or whatever he decided to call himself that day. I think it =
was a French pressing. It had some great playing from Arto Lindsay and =
included a completely hysterical version of "That=B4s When Your =
Heartaches Begin". That must have been the one somebody claims to have =
seen...=20

Anybody know if that one ever came out on CD, perhaps as bonus tracks on =
a James Chance reissue? I=B4m desperate to get hold of a new copy - one =
of the best recordings James Chance ever made

cheers
Mads


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: and the opposite of not sex
Date: 04 Mar 2002 16:55:57 -0800

on 3/4/02 4:42 PM, Mads Ruby at [e-mail] wrote:

> Anybody know if that one ever came out on CD, perhaps as bonus tracks on =
a
> James Chance reissue? I=B4m desperate to get hold of a new copy - one of th=
e
> best recordings James Chance ever made

Didn't Infinite Zero reissue the entire White/Chance/Contortions catalogue
at one point?

skip h


-



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From: "Mads Ruby" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Chance
Date: 05 Mar 2002 02:17:46 +0100

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C1C3EB.F0D4E6E0
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

In the earlier message I completely forgot:

Heard something about James Chance playing a show with Marc Ribot and =
Ikue Mori earlier this year. Anybody see that show or know if he has a =
band these days?

Mads

------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C1C3EB.F0D4E6E0
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    charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.3105.105" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>In the earlier message I completely =
forgot:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Heard something about James Chance playing a show =
with Marc=20
Ribot and Ikue Mori earlier this year. Anybody see that show or know if =
he has a=20
band these days?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Mads</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C1C3EB.F0D4E6E0--


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: William Crump <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: and the opposite of not sex
Date: 04 Mar 2002 17:27:44 -0800 (PST)

At 10:27 AM -0800 3/4/02, skip Heller wrote:
>So -- what does the list list as best "new love in
bloom" music?

Al Green, Al Green, Al Green and Al Green. I was in a
bar in Berkeley once and suddenly found myself
duetting "Still in Love With You" with a woman I'd
never met before in my life, just because we'd both
just happened to walk to the bar for another round at
the same time. It was amazing -- he's ATOMIC SPANISH
FLY!

William Crump

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - sign up for Fantasy Baseball
http://sports.yahoo.com

-



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From: "s~Z" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: breakin' up is hard to do (wop).
Date: 04 Mar 2002 17:45:26 -0800

Rolling Stones/Emotional Rescue
Marianne Faithful/Broken English


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: and the opposite of not sex
Date: 04 Mar 2002 17:50:46 -0800


On Tue, 5 Mar 2002 01:42:37 +0100  "Mads Ruby" wrote:
>
> I used to have a 12" on Ze Records with the 4 tracks by James Chance, James
> White, or whatever he decided to call himself that day. I think it was a French
> pressing. It had some great playing from Arto Lindsay and included a completely
> hysterical version of "That┤s When Your Heartaches Begin". That must have been
> the one somebody claims to have seen...

I agree, that's likely to be the one he thought was GRUTZI ELVIS. The error is
understandable since track #4 is called:

    "Theme From Grutzi Elvis"

> Anybody know if that one ever came out on CD, perhaps as bonus tracks on a James
> Chance reissue? I┤m desperate to get hold of a new copy - one of the best
> recordings James Chance ever made

Not as far as I know.

    Patrice.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Steve Smith" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Break Up Music
Date: 04 Mar 2002 21:13:09 -0500

I momentarily wanted to slit my wrists when I recently learned that Hollis
has "retired from music." Thankfully, I realized that I'll always have the
last two Talk Talk discs and the solo album. (In general, I prefer 'Spirit
of Eden' to 'Laughing Stock,' though.)

Steve Smith
[e-mail]
NP - Sven-Ake Johansson, Axel Dorner, Andrea Neumann, "3," 'Barcelona
Series' (hatOLOGY)

-----Original Message-----
[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of [e-mail]
Sent: Monday, March 04, 2002 6:25 PM


I tend to go for the music that matches the mood- in other words, if I'm
upset, the last thing I want to hear is "happy" music.

Therefore, in times of gloom, I heartily recommend Talk Talk's _Laughing
Stock_ as an album to cure one's ills.

However I do realize that Mark Hollis' vocals could make some *want* to slit
their wrists...


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Steve Smith" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: and the opposite of not sex
Date: 04 Mar 2002 21:19:12 -0500

Stevie Wonder, "Knocks Me Off My Feet," 'Songs in the Key of Life'
Madonna, "Crazy for You," 'The Immaculate Collection'
Bob Marley, "Is This Love," 'Legend'

Steve Smith
[e-mail]


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: stevie...
Date: 04 Mar 2002 22:01:15 EST

howzabout "talking book"??

<jams out to 'you are the sunshine of my life'>

xo
k8.



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: RE: Break Up Music
Date: 04 Mar 2002 22:20:47 EST

In a message dated Mon, 4 Mar 2002  9:15:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Steve Smith" <[e-mail]> writes:

> I momentarily wanted to slit my wrists when I recently learned that Hollis
> has "retired from music." Thankfully, I realized that I'll always have the
> last two Talk Talk discs and the solo album. (In general, I prefer 'Spirit
> of Eden' to 'Laughing Stock,' though.)

Hey Steve- I suppose you've picked up the two post-TT 'O'Rang albums, featuring bassist Webb and drummer Harris.  They're sort of a ambient/tribal extension of TT's _SoE_ and _LS_, for lack of a better description.  They're well worth the search for anyone into late-era TT, in any case.  I think they were re-issued Stateside on some indie label (Big Hit???)

I guess in a more jazzy mode, Miles' _Kind of Blue_ would definitely qualify, 'least under my guidelines...

--
=dg=

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: stevie...
Date: 04 Mar 2002 20:18:03 -0800

on 3/4/02 7:01 PM, [e-mail] at [e-mail] wrote:

> howzabout "talking book"??
>

one of THE great sex albums

sh


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Broken-up music
Date: 04 Mar 2002 23:38:03 -0600

I can see the infomercial now -- "K-Tel Presents: Songs for the Unrequited:
All the Hits That Hurt."

Of course, the whole point in having a heart is so that you can get it
broken into tiny little sharp-edged piaces and properly wallow in the
following:

Hands down the greatest wallowing to be had: early Fleetwood Mac, esp.
"Love That Burns" and "Man of the World."  Peter Green had to be pretty
much the most tortured soul of the century.

One of the saddest songs ever:  NRBQ's "Ridin' in My Car," by former
guitarist Al Anderson.  The contrast between the jaunty melody and the
understated melancholy in the lyrics is exquisitely sad.  (NRBQ also has an
I'm-breaking-up-with-you song that is unspeakably sad, "Big Goodbyes")

Dinah Washington "This Bitter Earth" and "I Don't Hurt Anymore"

Ann Peebles' "I Can't Stand the Rain." (And then listen to her "I'll Get
Along" to cheer up)

Bonnie Raitt "Love Has No Pride"

Harold Melvin & the Bluenotes' "The Love I Lost."

Teddy Pendergrass, "Love TKO"

Hall & Oates "She's Gone" and "Had I Known You Better Then" (a shame they
had to go and besmirch their name with all that bad pop later on)

"Tonight the Bottle Let Me Down" -- Haggard's original or the Elvis
Costello version

"It All Came Down" -- a very uncharacteristic weird indie-rock-y sort of
track that snuck onto an Iguanas album, which they never play live.

Elvis Costello's "I Want You" from "Blood & Chocolate," a great album for
down times, overall

Brian Ferry's "Slave to Love," and most of Roxy Music is properly angst-ridden

American Music Club is, of course, tops for reaching new depressive peaks

Then there's the Zulus' "Down on the Floor," a cathartic classic for the
cuckolded.  When they did it live, basically you'd break your neck banging
your head and not have to worry about your stupid heart any more.

And when you're ready to laugh at yourself again, the ultimate in
over-the-top self-pity: Glyn Styler's "You Killed My Love."  The Chandler
Travis Philharmonic and a salsa group from North Carolina -- Bioritmo, I
think is the name -- have both done funny covers of this.

I can't think of as many love-in-bloom songs, love thwarted is so much more
fun.  But there's "Teach Me Tonight," by Dinah Washington (the Johnny Adams
version is also grand), and "I Don't Know Enough About You," by the late
great Peggy Lee. And I have to say Van Morrison's T.B. Sheets, which I know
is really strange, but my ex-quasi-fiance and I used to have rendezvous at
the Waffle House and somebody had put Van Morrison's "Brown-Eyed Girl" in
the jukebox wrong, so every time somebody tried to play it, which was about
three times an hour, they got "T.B. Sheets," which amused us no end. So I
always think of romance when I hear "T.B. Sheets."  The other big things we
shared were Paul Westerberg's first solo album and Townes Van Zandt, so no
wonder we both eventually just got too depressed and had to start seeing
other people's record collections.


Parry











-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Skip's important advice
Date: 04 Mar 2002 23:38:06 -0600

>
>>Important advice  -- resist the temptation  to upgrade the musical tastes of
>>your signifigant others (Steve notwithstanding -- she your ex obviously knew
>>some stuff already).  Back when I lived in Philly, if you wanted to see
>>every old girlfriend I ever had, all you had to do was wait for NRBQ, Mose
>>Allison, or Ahmad Jamal to come to town, and they'd all be there, thoroughly
>>indoctrinated, grooving hard, and generally with a new boyfriend whose
>>tastes THEY were seeking to upgrade.  The irony of this was never lost on me
>>- -- I paid too much attention to music and not to the relationship, the
>>relationship ends, and my taste in music seemed to last forever.
>>


The corollary to this, I guess, is not to regard blissfully compatible
musical taste as a sign that Love Was Meant To Be. I've learned, to my
sorrow, that more is required for a successful long-term relationship.  Of
course, I still would not go out with someone without performing a complete
musical inquisition, and inspecting his entire record collection to make
sure he wasn't harboring, say, a Big Country album.

Parry



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "josephneff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Break Up Music
Date: 05 Mar 2002 01:03:14 -0500

Hello,
     ...John Lee Hooker's "When My First Wife Left Me" is an absolutely
devastating break up song. I'm thinking specifically of the version on an
old    GNP Crescendo 2LP "Best of...".
    Also, (though this doesn't really count as break up music) the Violent
Femmes' "Good Feeling", which received rather frequent play in my bedroom
back in those dysfunctional high school days when I was trying desperately
for some contact w/ the opposite sex, and failing miserably, natch.
    Lastly....Stephen Merritt. "69 Love Songs" in particular. Especially when
he's singing. His throat just drips w/ melancholy ache.

I remain....

Joseph

NP: feedtime- "Shovel" LP
NR: Stanley Elkin- "Criers and Kibitzers, Kibitzers and Criers"


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tosh <[e-mail]>
Subject: Break up Music
Date: 04 Mar 2002 21:54:37 -0800

I always found Procol Harum's 'Whiter Shade Than Pale' an extremely
sad song.  In fact that whole album sounds so sad.  I haven't heard
this album for at least  25 years.  Should I give it another listen?
Oh and their Grand Hotel album strikes me as very sad too!  All that
waltzing and drinking fancy liquor - it al adds to the failure of
romance.  Also a good Noel Coward song affects me that way too.
--
Tosh Berman
TamTam Books
http://www.tamtambooks.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: the femmes.
Date: 05 Mar 2002 01:58:30 EST


In a message dated 03.05.02 00.46.46, [e-mail] writes:

>Also, (though this doesn't really count as break up music) the Violent
>Femmes' "Good Feeling", which received rather frequent play in my bedroom
>back in those dysfunctional high school days when I was trying desperately
>for some contact w/ the opposite sex, and failing miserably, natch.

damn.  i'd forgotten all about that song.  i knew there was a reason i was
trying to get my friend darren to download and subsequently burn that first
VF album.  that song was on my listening list all through 7-8-9-10th
grades...  i was such an angstful child, really.  so depressive.  i don't
have any idea how my parents dealt with me, until i started listening to
crazy loud shit.

love,
  k8.




---
[.n0thing.is.what.is.sAid.]
k a t e  p e t e r s o n
c o m p o s e r / p e r f o r m e r

http://www.geocities.com/uforbk8/kate.html
http://www.icefoundation.org (roundtable)

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Skip's important advice
Date: 04 Mar 2002 23:17:40 -0800

on 3/4/02 9:38 PM, [e-mail] at [e-mail] wrote:

>
> The corollary to this, I guess, is not to regard blissfully compatible
> musical taste as a sign that Love Was Meant To Be. I've learned, to my
> sorrow, that more is required for a successful long-term relationship.  Of
> course, I still would not go out with someone without performing a complete
> musical inquisition, and inspecting his entire record collection to make
> sure he wasn't harboring, say, a Big Country album.
>
> Parry
>
It's true, true, sad but true.

Of course, my wife could identify Johnny "Guitar" Watson before I ever met
her, so I'm a freakin' lottery winner.

sh

and "Ridin' In My Car" is the best sad song with the best sad guitar solo
since JGW's "Lonely Lonely Nights".  I you disgaree with this, you are just
plain wrong.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "> chromasoom audio visuele communicatie >" <[e-mail]>
Subject: from Belgium with love
Date: 05 Mar 2002 09:11:03 +0100

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Hallo,


I'm from Europe>Belgium>Mechelen and new on this list (actualy, this is =
the first time I subscribe to a 'list').
I hope to learn a lot from you people, since I'm also planning to visit =
NY as soon as possible. Suggestions on that topic are always welcome.
As expected, I'm a lot into the music of Zorn and the downtown scene, =
and what 'they' call avant-garde.
I also have (had) a great interest in European elektro music.
Professionally, I have an audio-visual production company, check out the =
website - leave comments.
Hope to hear from you all.

best,

Jan Weynants
Mechelen, Belgium
http://www.chromasoom.be

------=_NextPart_000_013E_01C1C425.AD12D090
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    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana size=3D2>Hallo,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana size=3D2>I'm from =
Europe>Belgium>Mechelen and new on=20
this list (actualy, this is the first time I subscribe to a=20
'list').</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana size=3D2>I hope to learn a lot from you =
people, since I'm=20
also planning to visit NY as soon as possible. Suggestions on that topic =
are=20
always welcome.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana size=3D2>As expected, I'm a lot into the music =
of Zorn and=20
the downtown scene, and what 'they' call avant-garde.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana size=3D2>I also have (had) a great interest in =
European=20
elektro music.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana size=3D2>Professionally, I have an =
audio-visual production=20
company, check out the website - leave comments.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana size=3D2>Hope to hear from you =
all.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana size=3D2>best,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana size=3D2>Jan Weynants</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana size=3D2>Mechelen, Belgium</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"http://www.chromasoom.be">http://www.chromasoom.be</A></FONT></DI=
V></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_013E_01C1C425.AD12D090--


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: duncan youngerman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: breakin' up is hard to do (wop).
Date: 06 Jan 2002 21:36:40 +0100


----10cc: "I'm not in love"



>


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: duncan youngerman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Break up Music/ "Whiter shade"
Date: 06 Jan 2002 21:50:03 +0100



Tosh a =E9crit :

> I always found Procol Harum's 'Whiter Shade Than Pale' an extremely
> sad song=2E

One of the greatest singles of all times (with it's contemporaries "Good
vibrations", "Groovin'", "Ode to Billy Joe", "When a man loves a woman",
"Dock of the bay", "Somebody to love", etc --what a YEAR that was for
pop---), which I find sad,yes, but also incredibly
uplifting/romantically inspiring=2E "Fifteen hundred vestal virgins",
etc=2E=2E)

Gainsbourg's "Je t'aime/ moi non plus" is clearly inspired by it (the
Bach-like organ)=2E

DY=2E

> -


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "David Evans" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Mark Hollis/Talk Talk (no JZ content)
Date: 05 Mar 2002 11:08:52 +0000

Greetings to all you Mark Hollis/Talk Talk fans out there.

I too am grateful that Hollis left us with Spirit of Eden (my favourite),
Laughing Stock and his solo album before he retired. 'Colour of Spring' is
also a pretty good record.

The last stuff I heard he was invovled with was UNKLE - Psyence Fiction,
which he was very unhappy with and had his name removed from the credits.
The track 'Rabbit in your headlights' also features a sample of Lee Harris'
drums from New Grass off Laughing Stock, which I don't think is credited.

He also co-wrote and co-produced some of 'Smiling and Waving' by Anja
Garbarek, and you can tell. A lot of it has that '2-mics-in-a-room-chamber
feel of his solo record.

I heard 'O'-rang had split up. Any news on that?

Dave Evans

_________________________________________________________________
Join the worldÆs largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
http://www.hotmail.com


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Sean Westergaard" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: eno
Date: 05 Mar 2002 08:50:23 -0500



>I'll agree also with Eno as a great soundtrack, although for me it's
>_Discreet Music_ and _Another Green World_, both of which I have on
>vinyl and sorely need to be replaced.


the Eno catalogue is in serious need of a remastering.  if you can find and
afford them, the Eno boxes (out of print on Virgin) are the way to go.  the
sound is vastly superior.  the individual cd's are sounding pretty flat
nowadays.

sean, who re-buys way too many reamstered recordings


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Mark Saleski <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: and the opposite of not sex
Date: 05 Mar 2002 09:22:34 -0500


NRBQ - I Love Her, She Loves Me

actually, anything by NRBQ.

--
Mark Saleski - [e-mail] | http://www.foliage.com/~marks
"Music is spiritual. The music business is not." - Van Morrison



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Nirav Soni" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: breakin' up is hard to doo(wop).
Date: 05 Mar 2002 10:05:20 -0500

Put on Morton Feldman's "For Phillip Guston." Open bottle of cheap alcohol.
Repeat. Or, go swimming.

Also, any number of Indian film soundtracks from the 50's and 60's work
equally well...I like "Pakeezah." When I'm feeling really relationship low,
I'll watch Raj Kapoor's "Sangam" over and over. Westerns are great
too....all that heroic solitude.

Nirav
--
AIM: Icefactory37
"Duration is to the consciousness as light is to the eye" - Bill Viola


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Herb Levy <[e-mail]>
Subject: Ingram Marshall in RealAudio, Mappings for the week beginning
Date: 05 Mar 2002 07:28:51 -0600

Hi y'all,

This week on Mappings <http://www.antennaradio.com/avant/mappings/>,
you'll hear works for electronics and ensembles by composer Ingram
Marshall.

The show went online Tueday morning around 6:00 AM (-0600 GMT) and
will remain online at the above URL for a week. Last week's program
(featuring works for multiple instruments by Chris Brown, Joseph
Celli, Annie Gosfield, José Maceda, Phill Niblock, Salvatore
Sciarrino, Lois V Vierk, and Samuel Vriezen) is still available in
the Mappings archive
<http://www.antennaradio.com/avant/mappings/index1.htm>, where you
can also find play lists for the program since it began in March 1998.

Earlier this morning the new Antenna Web site was working, but it's
not right now. If you use these URLs, you'll be directed to the new
pages when they're really up & running. Please let me know if you
have any trouble navigating the new site.  Thanks a lot.

Hope you tune in to the program.

Bests,

Herb

--
Herb Levy
Mappings on Antenna Internet Radio
<http://www.antennaradio/avant/mappings/>
[e-mail]

Mappings  P O Box 9369  Forth Wort, TX 76147  USA

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tosh <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: eno & remastering
Date: 05 Mar 2002 07:36:21 -0800

I think I am going to start another theme that will last at
least...for a week!  Anyway here it goes: and it is sort of a naive
question:

Is it worth buying something you have already if it has been
remasterd?  For instance, I purchased Love 'Forever Changes' some
years ago.  Love the album, but besides the bonus cuts - is it worth
it to buy the remaster vision for its sound.

On the Zorn front, I do have the two versions of the Morricone
tribute - and I bought the new remastered one because of the bonus
cuts.  But is the sound better than the Nonsuch version?

My ears or stereo is not that sophisticated, so I would like to hear
some opinions on the subject matter of remastering.

P.S.  Oh, and for the last three or four months I have been
purchasing the remasterd Miles stuff.  The sound is incredible - but
how was the sound on the original release of the CD's?
--
Tosh Berman
TamTam Books
http://www.tamtambooks.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tosh <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Break up Music/ "Whiter shade"
Date: 05 Mar 2002 07:39:23 -0800

>Ahh, the roots of my obsession with Gainsbourg!  Procol Harum is cool!
>
>Gainsbourg's "Je t'aime/ moi non plus" is clearly inspired by it (the
>Bach-like organ).
>
>DY.
>
>  > -


--
Tosh Berman
TamTam Books
http://www.tamtambooks.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: James Hale <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: eno & remastering
Date: 05 Mar 2002 10:44:49 -0500

The sound on the earlier/initial CDs of Miles' Columbia stuff was pretty
awful... harsh, metallic, shallow.
The biggest difference is discernable on Kind Of Blue. The initial CD
accentuated the tape hiss on the session and didn't fix the pitch
problem that was introduced when the LP was mastered. Both the gold and
regular remasterings are miles ahead (sorry), and the gold one is one of
the warmest recordings I've ever heard. Listen to it through headphones
and you'll swear you're in the studio.

James

Tosh wrote:

> P.S.  Oh, and for the last three or four months I have been
> purchasing the remasterd Miles stuff.  The sound is incredible - but
> how was the sound on the original release of the CD's?


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Sean Westergaard" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: eno & remastering
Date: 05 Mar 2002 10:36:16 -0500

>Is it worth buying something you have already if it has been
>remasterd?  For instance, I purchased Love 'Forever Changes' some
>years ago.  Love the album, but besides the bonus cuts - is it worth
>it to buy the remaster vision for its sound.

>how was the sound on the original release of the CD's?



the original versions of the Miles stuff sounds like shit in comparison.  I
think the deluxe version of Forever Changes will blow your mind (plus you
get the single Your Mind and We Belong Together.  What a guitar solo!)  I
think if an album was released on cd more than 7 years or so ago, a
remastering will very likely be a major sonic improvement.  I've done side
by side tests on albums like Thembi by Pharoah Sanders and the difference
was staggering.  same with albums like Agharta by Miles, where the domestic
version still sounds crappy.

but i stated up front i have a "problem" with repurchasing for better sound.
anyone else care to chime in?

sean


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: eno & remastering
Date: 05 Mar 2002 10:59:19 EST


In a message dated 03.05.02 10.47.14, [e-mail] writes:

>but i stated up front i have a "problem" with repurchasing for better sound.
>anyone else care to chime in?

i'm chiming.  i have never repurchased an album for a remaster, or for that
matter, for the bonus tracks.  well, maybe once.  but it was a weird and rare
orb maxi single that had been reworked, not really remastered.

the only example i can think of off hand is Pet Sounds.  i have a copy of Pet
Sounds on cassette, in all of its mono glory, and i just heard the 'stereo'
remaster of it about three weeks ago.  it was actually almost physically
painful for me to listen to.  i think that Pet Sounds is resplendent in its
original form.

some things were destined to sound better in their analogue glory.

although i can see impetus for buying remasters of old jazz and the like for
cleaner recordings.  but then again, some people *like* dirty recordings...
i know i would feel ill if i heard a remaster of stravinsky conducting
stravinsky doing 'rite of spring'...  so i've avoided it!

i guess i'm just not enough of a snob to buy both the regular and the
remaster.  but my ears can decidedly tell the difference.

i would be curious about what a remaster of one of the eno ambient albums
would sound like.  although one of the things i find most appealing about
music for airports is the slight tape hiss / buzzing you can hear in between
the piano/vibraphone stuff in the first movement.  mmm...

palindrome of the day:

eno, do me mod one!

love,
  k8.




---
[.n0thing.is.what.is.sAid.]
k a t e  p e t e r s o n
c o m p o s e r / p e r f o r m e r

http://www.geocities.com/uforbk8/kate.html
http://www.icefoundation.org (roundtable)

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: RE: Break Up Music
Date: 05 Mar 2002 11:31:26 EST

Not to forget "You've Changed" by Billie Holliday (and the rest of Lady in
Satin)  Whew!

jb

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Break Up Music
Date: 05 Mar 2002 11:49:30 EST

Harry Nilsson "You're Breaking My Heart, you've torn it apart, so fuck you."

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Efr=E9n=20del=20Valle?= <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fwd: Re: breakin' up is hard to doo(wop).
Date: 05 Mar 2002 17:59:48 +0100 (CET)

Hi,

Whenever I'm feeling down, Carla Bley always works,
specially "Dinner Music" or "4X4". A good therapy is
going out on the street and checking that there's life
after whoever- specially in summer: tight clothes,
tanned skins,... :-)

Cheer up!

EfrΘn del Valle

_______________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Messenger
Comunicaci≤n instantßnea gratis con tu gente.
http://messenger.yahoo.es

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dave Trenkel <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: eno & remastering
Date: 05 Mar 2002 09:59:50 -0800

At 7:36 AM -0800 3/5/2002, Tosh wrote:
>I think I am going to start another theme that will last at
>least...for a week!  Anyway here it goes: and it is sort of a naive
>question:
>
>Is it worth buying something you have already if it has been
>remasterd?  For instance, I purchased Love 'Forever Changes' some
>years ago.  Love the album, but besides the bonus cuts - is it worth
>it to buy the remaster vision for its sound.
>
>On the Zorn front, I do have the two versions of the Morricone
>tribute - and I bought the new remastered one because of the bonus
>cuts.  But is the sound better than the Nonsuch version?
>
>My ears or stereo is not that sophisticated, so I would like to hear
>some opinions on the subject matter of remastering.
>
>P.S.  Oh, and for the last three or four months I have been
>purchasing the remasterd Miles stuff.  The sound is incredible - but
>how was the sound on the original release of the CD's?
>--

I do a fair amount of mastering, and I'd say, generally, if something
has been remastered with some care, it's worth getting the new
version. Especially if the original CD was released in the first few
years of CD's. The Miles discs are a good example, the original CD's
rushed to market in the early years sounded pretty atrocious. The new
remasters, as you mention, sound pretty fantastic. The same is true
of the Jimi Hendrix catalog, the original CD reissues were just
horrible.

Digital sound technology has gotten much much better in the past few
years, and we engineers are getting a few clues about using it. If
the original analog recording is done well, there's a lot of detail
that earlier generations of analog to digital converters just missed.
I don't think you need sophisticated ears or technology to tell when
something sounds good, it just does.
--
Dave Trenkel                                New and Improv Music
http://www.newandimprov.com         [e-mail]
                 Now Available: Minus: Dark Lit
"This is music all-consuming in its beauty and power"
                                -Jake TenPas OSU Daily Barometer


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: eno & remastering
Date: 05 Mar 2002 10:15:09 -0800

on 3/5/02 9:59 AM, Dave Trenkel at [e-mail] wrote:


>> Is it worth buying something you have already if it has been
>> remasterd?


I think it's conditionally worth it.  Obviously, to have KIND OF BLUE
playing at the right speed is a big improvement.

But a great many things came out on CD sounding okay in the first reissue --
espec stuff that wasn't on major labels, where it just seemed like there was
a rush to digitize everything as quickly as possible.

Probably the most dramatic digital facelift went to Stevie Wonder's TALKING
BOOK.  Arguably the greatest album of the seventies, and arguably the
worst-sounding great album ever made.  the recent remastering job unmasked
so much that we never heard before, like the fact that Stevie was using his
left hand as well as his right on many of those parts.  I would say
regaining about 50% of the performance makes it worth it.

skip h


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Zachary Steiner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: eno & remastering
Date: 05 Mar 2002 13:13:50 -0500

We just got a nice surround sound stereo set up in our basement and I
tried listening to some of my favorite albums.  To appease my parents
the first CD I played was Dark Side of the Moon.  I was appalled by the
hiss that was so noticeable on the good speakers; it almost obscured
some of the quieter sections.  The same problem with Bitches Brew (I
have the Box Set).  I've found that I can't listen to older albums (no
matter how well they were remastered) on that stereo.  I have to stick
to my shelf system or my computer speakers with sub to listen to music
recording more than 10-15 years ago.

I'm a fan of the new Big Gundown.  It sounds better and I love the bonus
tracks, especially the string pieces and the Ballad of Hank McCain.  I
think that it's more because of the extra tracks than the fidelity.

Zach



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "carlos torres" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: breakin' up is hard to doo(wop).
Date: 05 Mar 2002 10:28:27 -0800

What was the name of that blues single Thora Birch's character in Ghost
World fell in love with?



_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Efr=E9n=20del=20Valle?= <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fwd: RE: eno & remastering
Date: 05 Mar 2002 19:32:27 +0100 (CET)

HI,

Zach wrote:
>
> I'm a fan of the new Big Gundown.  It sounds better
> and I love the bonus
> tracks, especially the string pieces and the Ballad
> of Hank McCain.  I
> think that it's more because of the extra tracks
> than the fidelity.

Certainly. Or maybe i'm deaf, but I didn't notice
anything special in the sound of the old tracks.
With regards to the extras, they're good of course,
but I don't think they're at the same level as the old
ones. Maybe too faithful to the originals in
comparison with the Nonesuch release, which I found
much more thought out.

Greetings,

EfrΘn del Valle (who'll see Marty Ehrlich's Song
Quartet in about three hours but missed the Tomahawk
show yesterday. You can't afford everything)


_______________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Messenger
Comunicaci≤n instantßnea gratis con tu gente.
http://messenger.yahoo.es

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Benito Vergara" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: breakin' up is hard to do (wop).
Date: 05 Mar 2002 10:39:34 -0800

The Blue Nile's "Hats" album I find deeply melancholy, as I do some tracks
from American Music Club's "Everclear" and "Mercury."

And when I was in college, huge chunks of The Smiths' "Strangeways, Here We
Come" and "The Queen Is Dead" was good for wallowing in. The titles alone
said it all: I Know It's Over, Last Night I Dreamt That Somebody Loved Me --
and then of course Unhappy Birthday to make you feel a little better.

And at a truly weak moment, a rather cheesy version of Burt Bacharach's "A
House Is Not A Home" (probably sung by the Anita Kerr Singers or something)
really sucker-punched me one time.

Later,
Ben


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: breakin' up is hard to doo(wop).
Date: 05 Mar 2002 13:16:25 -0600

On Tue, Mar 05, 2002 at 10:05:20AM -0500, Nirav Soni wrote:
> Put on Morton Feldman's "For Phillip Guston." Open bottle of cheap alcohol.
> Repeat. Or, go swimming.

"For Phillip Guston" is so long that there's no need to repeat. But
the end, you'll either have passed out from the cheap booze or gotten
over it.

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Mark Hollis/Talk Talk (no JZ content)
Date: 05 Mar 2002 14:53:38 EST

In a message dated 3/5/02 6:09:45 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< He also co-wrote and co-produced some of 'Smiling and Waving' by Anja
 Garbarek, and you can tell. A lot of it has that '2-mics-in-a-room-chamber
 feel of his solo record. >>

Have not heard Anja's album, but I have a copy of a concert of hers that was
aired over BBC R3 last year.  Like you mention above, almost everything is
credited to Hollis.

<< I heard 'O'-rang had split up. Any news on that? >>

No studio albums since '96 and nothing at all since 98's _Remixes_ , which
I've not heard.  Probably safe to call it a split...

--
=dg=

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: William Crump <[e-mail]>
Subject: remastering
Date: 05 Mar 2002 11:56:37 -0800 (PST)

One amazing side-by-side comparison is Zappa's Hot
Rats (him again?!). I have an old vinyl edition and
the 1987 Ryko CD, and they're almost different albums.
Of course, this is a case of a completely new mix, not
just remastering, but it's still amazing. "There was a
piano in that song?!"
William Crump

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email!
http://mail.yahoo.com/

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Zachary Steiner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Infinite Zero
Date: 05 Mar 2002 15:03:46 -0500

Infinite Zero was mentioned a couple of days ago in reference to James
Chance.  I tried to find a website for the label, but all the links that
I found on other sites did not work.  Is there a running site for this
label or any documentation on its catalogue?  Thanks.

Zach



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Infinite Zero
Date: 05 Mar 2002 12:11:45 -0800

on 3/5/02 12:03 PM, Zachary Steiner at [e-mail] wrote:

> Infinite Zero was mentioned a couple of days ago in reference to James
> Chance.  I tried to find a website for the label, but all the links that
> I found on other sites did not work.  Is there a running site for this
> label or any documentation on its catalogue?  Thanks.
>
> Zach
>
>
If there's a comprehensive Henry Rollins site out there, they may have it.
IZ was his pet project.

sh


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Sean Westergaard" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: remastering
Date: 05 Mar 2002 15:08:27 -0500


>One amazing side-by-side comparison is Zappa's Hot
>Rats (him again?!). I have an old vinyl edition and
>the 1987 Ryko CD, and they're almost different albums.
>Of course, this is a case of a completely new mix, not
>just remastering, but it's still amazing. "There was a
>piano in that song?!"

if you can ever manage to track down the ultra short-lived Gold disc of Hot
Rats (on ryko), it's the original mix.  happy hunting

sean


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Sean Westergaard" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Infinite Zero
Date: 05 Mar 2002 15:10:54 -0500

infinite zero went under a few years back and all the stuff is out of print.

sean

-----Original Message-----
[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Zachary Steiner
Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2002 3:04 PM


Infinite Zero was mentioned a couple of days ago in reference to James
Chance.  I tried to find a website for the label, but all the links that
I found on other sites did not work.  Is there a running site for this
label or any documentation on its catalogue?  Thanks.

Zach



-



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Infinite Zero
Date: 05 Mar 2002 16:04:37 EST

if any of it is available, it would be on www.two1361.com

That's the Rollins website.

T

______________________________________________________________________
Phil Spector: "I've been listening to a lot of Andrew Lloyd Webber lately,
and enjoying it. Someday I hope to set his stuff to music."

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: thesubtlebody <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Infinite Zero
Date: 05 Mar 2002 13:11:13 -0800 (PST)

--- Sean Westergaard <[e-mail]> wrote:
> infinite zero went under a few years back and all
> the stuff is out of print.

It would seem that a small handful of the discs are
still available through Rollins' site, including the
James Chance BUY THE CONTORTIONS:

http://209.85.29.22/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=2&Category_Code=CDs

-----s

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email!
http://mail.yahoo.com/

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: remastering
Date: 05 Mar 2002 16:36:46 EST


--part1_8c.14dfe643.29b6946e_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 3/5/2002 2:57:23 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:


> One amazing side-by-side comparison is Zappa's Hot
> Rats (him again?!). I have an old vinyl edition and
> the 1987 Ryko CD, and they're almost different albums.
> Of course, this is a case of a completely new mix, not
> just remastering, but it's still amazing. "There was a
> piano in that song?!"
>

If I'm not mistaken, isn't Hots Rats one of the controversial Zappa CD's that
he actually DID add parts to in the remix/remaster process? That would indeed
make them different albums.

Dale.

--part1_8c.14dfe643.29b6946e_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  COLOR="#0000a0" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SCRIPT" FACE="Comic Sans MS" LANG="0"><B>In a message dated 3/5/2002 2:57:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, [e-mail] writes:<BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></B><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">One amazing side-by-side comparison is Zappa's Hot<BR>
Rats (him again?!). I have an old vinyl edition and<BR>
the 1987 Ryko CD, and they're almost different albums.<BR>
Of course, this is a case of a completely new mix, not<BR>
just remastering, but it's still amazing. "There was a<BR>
piano in that song?!"<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0000a0" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SCRIPT" FACE="Comic Sans MS" LANG="0"><B><BR>
If I'm not mistaken, isn't Hots Rats one of the controversial Zappa CD's that he actually DID add parts to in the remix/remaster process? That would indeed make them different albums. <BR>
<BR>
Dale.</B></FONT></HTML>

--part1_8c.14dfe643.29b6946e_boundary--

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: remastering
Date: 05 Mar 2002 16:38:52 EST


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In a message dated 3/5/2002 3:19:00 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:


>
> if you can ever manage to track down the ultra short-lived Gold disc of Hot
> Rats (on ryko), it's the original mix.  happy hunting
>
> sean
>

Thanks Sean, I was wondering if the original version existed on CD, and got
no response at all to my inquiry to the Zappa "estate." Is this a Mobile
Fidelity gold disc?

Dale.

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  COLOR="#0000a0" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SCRIPT" FACE="Comic Sans MS" LANG="0"><B>In a message dated 3/5/2002 3:19:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, [e-mail] writes:<BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></B><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
if you can ever manage to track down the ultra short-lived Gold disc of Hot<BR>
Rats (on ryko), it's the original mix.  happy hunting<BR>
<BR>
sean<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0000a0" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SCRIPT" FACE="Comic Sans MS" LANG="0"><B><BR>
Thanks Sean, I was wondering if the original version existed on CD, and got no response at all to my inquiry to the Zappa "estate." Is this a Mobile Fidelity gold disc?<BR>
<BR>
Dale.</B></FONT></HTML>

--part1_144.a8a5a9c.29b694ec_boundary--

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From: "Steve Smith" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Infinite Zero
Date: 05 Mar 2002 16:38:53 -0500

And getting damned hard to find, as I discovered when I finally got around
to looking for the Gang of Four reissues. I had to turn to eBay for 'Songs
of the Free,' and still haven't found 'Solid Gold' and 'Hard.' (So if
anybody's sitting on spares...)

Steve Smith
[e-mail]

-----Original Message-----
[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Sean Westergaard
Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2002 3:11 PM


infinite zero went under a few years back and all the stuff is out of print.


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From: Thierry Raguin <[e-mail]>
Subject: Naked City Live
Date: 05 Mar 2002 23:07:46 +0100

Hi everyone,

Does anyone one know the release date of Naked City Live vol. 1:
Knitting factory 1989? On Tzadik website, they only say March...

- TR


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From: "Steve Smith" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Mark Hollis/Talk Talk (no JZ content)
Date: 05 Mar 2002 17:08:01 -0500

First I thought that .O.rang split up, then later it appeared that while
Paul Webb had left, Lee Harris was continuing on. There's a website at
http://users.cybercity.dk/~bcc11425/orang/ which contains a lot of
information, but apparently it hasn't been updated since last October.
Still, one thing it does mention is a collaboration between Lee and Paul,
backing Portishead's Beth Gibbons, which does sound kinda promising if it's
still happening.

The same guy who does the .O.rang site, by the way, also runs the very nice
Within Without site dedicated to Mark Hollis:
http://users.cybercity.dk/~bcc11425/. But that doesn't appear to have been
updated recently either - not that there's really been anything to report.

What's the Anja Garbarek disc like? As an import, it's damned expensive, but
I see that in addition to Hollis, it's got contributions from Robert Wyatt,
Steve Jansen and Richard Barbieri. The "reviewer" at Amazon describes her
earlier album as "Bjork meets Laurie Anderson," though, which makes me a bit
wary. Any pointers?

Steve Smith
[e-mail]


-----Original Message-----
[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of [e-mail]
Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2002 2:54 PM

<< I heard 'O'-rang had split up. Any news on that? >>

No studio albums since '96 and nothing at all since 98's _Remixes_ , which
I've not heard.  Probably safe to call it a split...


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From: "Marcin Gokieli" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Odp: eno & remastering
Date: 06 Mar 2002 01:30:36 +0100


----- Original Message -----
> was staggering.  same with albums like Agharta by Miles, where the
domestic
> version still sounds crappy.

Ok... you want to make me spend more money on electric miles... ;-)
As you see, I agree that  the 'columbia masterpieces' cds of agharta/pangaea
do sound flat. 'Dark Magus' sounds very dangerous in comparison, and obne
may wonder whether the show was THAT MUCH better.
The time has come to buy new editions, I think
Marcin


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From: "Marcin Gokieli" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Odp: eno & remastering
Date: 06 Mar 2002 01:34:57 +0100


----- Original Message -----


> i know i would feel ill if i heard a remaster of stravinsky conducting
> stravinsky doing 'rite of spring'...  so i've avoided it!

but there's no new (24/96?) remaster, all we have is the early '90s digital
version (I mean the new mini lp version is not remastred)?
And I WANT ENO POP ALBUMS TO BE REMASTRED.
Marcin (you can see my opinion on some, at least, some of the remasters from
the posts on miles, be & IS)


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From: "Marcin Gokieli" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Odp: eno & remastering
Date: 06 Mar 2002 01:40:21 +0100


----- Original Message -----

> the original analog recording is done well, there's a lot of detail
> that earlier generations of analog to digital converters just missed.
> I don't think you need sophisticated ears or technology to tell when
> something sounds good, it just does.

I fully agree - and i have to point out that my listening equipment is
nowhere near top class (HK 7325 cd / old grundig vinyl player/ pioneer a503R
amp/ qln 122 speakers). On my beloved 'filles de kilimajaro', i found that
the bass was doubled by e pinao at some moments - it sounded just like 'low
sound' on the original version.
That being said, a good idea is just to keep your vinyls. they sound
inceridble.
BTW - as for records that need some remaster: '70s Carla Bley stuff.
Marcin


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From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Odp: eno & remastering
Date: 05 Mar 2002 16:32:57 -0800

on 3/5/02 4:40 PM, Marcin Gokieli at [e-mail] wrote:

> BTW - as for records that need some remaster: '70s Carla Bley stuff.
> Marcin
>

remix, remaster, and remove any post-recorded organ that tended to  crowd
the canvas and obscure what was actually happening in the the studio when
those guys were paying together (espec on EUROPEAN TOUR 77)

sh


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From: "Marcin Gokieli" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Odp: Odp: eno & remastering
Date: 06 Mar 2002 01:48:52 +0100


----- Original Message -----

> remix, remaster, and remove any post-recorded organ that tended to  crowd
> the canvas and obscure what was actually happening in the the studio when
> those guys were paying together (espec on EUROPEAN TOUR 77)

Ain't that a live album?
I just got that one on vinyl - MUCH more power then the cd.



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From: "Marcin Gokieli" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Odp: Odp: eno & remastering
Date: 06 Mar 2002 01:51:43 +0100


----- Original Message -----

> those guys were paying together (espec on EUROPEAN TOUR 77)

the one that needs some serious work uregntly is Musique mechanique, IMHO.
Typical no- remaster sound with poor dynamics and electric bass sounding
like a piece of whale (whatever it might mean ;-)
Marcin


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Odp: Odp: eno & remastering
Date: 05 Mar 2002 16:48:43 -0800

on 3/5/02 4:48 PM, Marcin Gokieli at [e-mail] wrote:

>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
>
>> remix, remaster, and remove any post-recorded organ that tended to  crowd
>> the canvas and obscure what was actually happening in the the studio when
>> those guys were paying together (espec on EUROPEAN TOUR 77)
>
> Ain't that a live album?
> I just got that one on vinyl - MUCH more power then the cd.
>
>
studio.  I have both, and the LP does sound fuller.

sh


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From: "Steve Smith" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Stravinsky and remastering [was RE: eno & remastering]
Date: 05 Mar 2002 21:01:07 -0500

If you feel like coughing up $54, Andante has just issued a 3CD set of
Stravinsky's earliest recordings, including the 1940 New York Phil 'Rite'
(sharing a well-filled disc one with the Firebird Suite (1945 version),
Petroushka Suite (1910-11 version) and Fireworks. Lots of other good stuff
on the set, and Andante generally does a knockout job of remastering from 78
rpm sources (though I've not heard this particular set as yet). But ooofff,
that price...

http://www.andante.com/boutique/CDCOllection/stravinsky1960.cfm

Steve Smith
[e-mail]
(who joins the hordes in demanding updated versions of the Eno discs...
Virgin's recent Crimson and Roxy runs are pretty spectacular...)

-----Original Message-----
[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Marcin Gokieli
Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2002 7:35 PM

----- Original Message -----


> i know i would feel ill if i heard a remaster of stravinsky conducting
> stravinsky doing 'rite of spring'...  so i've avoided it!

but there's no new (24/96?) remaster, all we have is the early '90s digital
version (I mean the new mini lp version is not remastred)?


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From: "Steve Smith" <[e-mail]>
Subject: New Berne clips at the Screwgun site - GO, y'all
Date: 06 Mar 2002 01:32:37 -0500

Further to the recent PSA - and with absolutely nothing whatsoever to gain
in personal compensation except good karma when I die - please do let me
urge everyone and everyone to go download the sample MP3s from the new Tim
Berne quartet disc (w/Ducret, Taborn & Rainey) at the Screwgun website
(www.screwgunrecords.com - gawsh, but I knew ye when...). I just got around
to hearing them for the first time a few minutes ago, and I'm quite amazed.
One of the tracks is funky as all git out, set to a geometrical rhythm
construction located somewhere squarely between bloodcount and Paraphrase,
and the other... is... other. And neither is like anything I've previously
heard from Tim, which is more than enough reason to investigate, no?

Steve Smith
[e-mail]
NP - nada, cuz it's still downloading, but it's something by Anja Garbarek,
that much I know...


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From: duncan youngerman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Stravinsky and remastering
Date: 06 Mar 2002 10:10:02 +0100



Steve Smith a =E9crit :

> If you feel like coughing up $54, Andante has just issued a 3CD set of
> Stravinsky's earliest recordings, including the 1940 New York Phil 'Rite'
> (sharing a well-filled disc one with the Firebird Suite (1945 version),
> Petroushka Suite (1910-11 version) and Fireworks=2E Lots of other good stu=
ff
> on the set, and Andante generally does a knockout job of remastering from =
78
> rpm sources (though I've not heard this particular set as yet)=2E But ooof=
ff,
> that price=2E=2E=2E
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <UFOrbK8@aol=2Ecom>
>
> > i know i would feel ill if i heard a remaster of stravinsky conducting
> > stravinsky doing 'rite of spring'=2E=2E=2E  so i've avoided it!

I'm not sure Strawinsky conducting Strawinsky is really a reference in itsel=
f,
whether remastered or not=2E

If you want to own a definitive, breathtaking, state-of-the-art recording of
"Sacre du Printemps", I would recommend you spend your bucks on the 1992
Deutsche Grammophon CD by Pierre Boulez with the Cleveland Orchestra (also
including "Petrushka"), and which is not to be confused with a ca=2E1970 ver=
sion=2E

DY=2E




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From: "David Evans" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Anja Garbarek (no JZ content)
Date: 06 Mar 2002 11:13:24 +0000


Thanks for the website addresses Steve. IÆll check them out later (I should
actually be working now instead of writing this)

>"Bjork meets Laurie Anderson,"

I really donÆt want to reopen the Bjork debate, but I think comparing any
female singer to Bjork is either laziness or ignorance of who else is out
there. I havenÆt heard Balloon Mood so I canÆt comment. If pushed IÆd say
Stina Nordenstam is a better comparison.

>What's the Anja Garbarek disc like?

I like it, I think itÆs a very consistent album but I wouldnÆt spend a
fortune on it (and IÆm British and used to being ripped off for CDs). Hollis
produced and co-arranged (not co-wrote as I said earlier) 2 tracks; he plays
bass, melodica and piano on one of those. The rest of the album is produced
by Garbarek and Steven Wilson of No-Man/Porcupine Tree. What makes it sound
more like HollisÆ solo album is that Lawrence Pendrous plays piano and Chris
Laurence plays bass virtually all the way through. ThereÆs also a lot of
oboe and bassoon and some strings that give it that æchamberÆ feel

YouÆre right that it does also feature Steve Jansen (whoÆs already working
with her on the follow-up), but not Richard Barbieri. Robert WyattÆs
performance is excellent û and IÆm not normally a fan of his.

According to what IÆve heard, Smiling and Waving is much more mature and
individual than her first album. Apparently she wanted to fuse electronics
with acoustic instruments, and S & W subtly achieves that. The best thing
about it is, because she doesnÆt have a particularly strong voice sheÆs
worked hard to integrate it with the instruments and this works really well.
IMHO! Hope this helps!

By the way, does anyone know what that strange object is lurking on the
cover of HollisÆ solo album? It looks like a cross between a cat after a
road accident and a gingerbread man.


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From: "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: book recommendations
Date: 06 Mar 2002 11:19:53 +0000


I guess the choice these days is either travel or fall behind on the Zorn
list digests, and now that I'm only a week behind, I found this request by
our pal Benito.   Have you looked at the one by George Lipsitz, Ben?  Check
the link at Amazon below for his book Dangerous Crossroads:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1859849350/qid=1015410572/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/002-3798012-3753634

You might also want to check out Tricia Rose's work on rap as well as
Richard Shusterman's essay, "the Fine Art of Rap" in his book Pragmatist
Aesthetics.  I've used a volume edited by Andrew Ross for some of my
classes, but it's a bit dated now:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0415909074/qid=1015413183/sr=1-8/ref=sr_1_8/002-3798012-3753634

Also perhaps, simon Reynolds' book Generation Ecstasy.  You might also
consider using the films of Iara Lee, including Modulations and Synthetic
Pleasures.

Back to combing through the ever-prolific Z-list digests.  One week to go,
thank god.





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From: [e-mail]
Subject: re:breakup songs
Date: 06 Mar 2002 13:12:34 +0000 (GMT)

------=_Part_5045_7436461.1015420354222
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All this talk of break up songs and no-one has mentioned Peter Hammill?

His entire 70s catalogue has helped/hindered me through heartbreaks old and new. If you're looking for unremitting bleakness, I recommend "Over", or Van Der Graaf Generator's almost-contemporaneous "Still Life", which tempers the misery with a bit of Arthur C Clarke.

Alastair


--
Personalised email by http://another.com
------=_Part_5045_7436461.1015420354222--


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From: "Sean Westergaard" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: remastering
Date: 06 Mar 2002 09:11:53 -0500

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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    charset="US-ASCII"
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Thanks Sean, I was wondering if the original version existed on CD, and got
no response at all to my inquiry to the Zappa "estate." Is this a Mobile
Fidelity gold disc?

Dale.
[Sean Westergaard]

no, it was put out by Ryko.  I think it was available for about 5 seconds.

------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C1C4EE.F516FEB0
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4913.1100" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT lang=3D0 =
style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff"=20
face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#0000a0 size=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SCRIPT"><B>
<DIV><BR>Thanks Sean, I was wondering if the original version existed on =
CD, and=20
got no response at all to my inquiry to the Zappa "estate." Is this a =
Mobile=20
Fidelity gold disc?<BR><BR>Dale.</B></FONT> <BR><SPAN=20
class=3D362471014-06032002><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>[Sean=20
Westergaard] </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D362471014-06032002></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D362471014-06032002><SPAN =
class=3D362471014-06032002><FONT=20
face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>no, it was put out by Ryko.  =
I think it was=20
available for about 5=20
seconds.</FONT></SPAN> </SPAN></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C1C4EE.F516FEB0--


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From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Stravinsky and remastering
Date: 06 Mar 2002 08:26:54 -0800


On Wed, 06 Mar 2002 10:10:02 +0100  duncan youngerman wrote:
>
> I'm not sure Strawinsky conducting Strawinsky is really a reference in itself,
> whether remastered or not.
>
> If you want to own a definitive, breathtaking, state-of-the-art recording of
> "Sacre du Printemps", I would recommend you spend your bucks on the 1992
> Deutsche Grammophon CD by Pierre Boulez with the Cleveland Orchestra (also
> including "Petrushka"), and which is not to be confused with a ca.1970 version.

Strawinsky is quite interesting since, if I remember well, the rhythm on one
of his direction of the Rite of the Spring is quite different from anybody
else.

Also, who else would have dare to record The Wedding with... English voices!!!

    Patrice.


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From: "gorilla thing" <[e-mail]>
Subject: world music
Date: 06 Mar 2002 09:22:36 -0800

Hello and once again welcome to the
world of help Chad find new music.

I'm looking for any suggestions of 'World Music'
I like Nusrat, Jajouka, and Hamzel El Din and I'm still on the hunt for
more.

Thanks ahead of time.

Chad

P.S. regarding break-up cd's
any Leonard Cohen cd satisfies my mood swing heartaches




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From: "Michael Berman" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: world music
Date: 06 Mar 2002 13:13:01 -0500

i am particularly addicted to gnawa Moroccan music.  laswell put out a =
nice selection of stuff on his axiom label- Night Spirit Masters.  =
actually laz, fwiw, has a lot of 'world' stuff-check out his new one of =
Gigi on Palm.  ive liked everything he put out on axiom and the =
celluloid stuff (toure kunda, etc.), though many might disagree.  Hassan =
Hakmoun has a few good ones out too, one with Don Cherry - the man who =
pretty much brought 'world' music to jazz, imo.

of course Fela is a must too.

also, i strongly recommend Amelia Rodriguez for soulful Portuguese Fado =
singing.

for starters.....
m

----- Original Message -----=20
Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2002 12:22 PM


> Hello and once again welcome to the
> world of help Chad find new music.
>=20
> I'm looking for any suggestions of 'World Music'
> I like Nusrat, Jajouka, and Hamzel El Din and I'm still on the hunt =
for=20
> more.
>=20
> Thanks ahead of time.
>=20
> Chad
>=20
> P.S. regarding break-up cd's
> any Leonard Cohen cd satisfies my mood swing heartaches
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at =
http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
>=20
>=20
> -
>=20
>=20


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From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Efr=E9n=20del=20Valle?= <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fwd: Re: world music
Date: 06 Mar 2002 19:52:58 +0100 (CET)

Hi,

I regularly check a collection from UNESCO that covers
many great folk music. I specially dig their Bali and
China releases. I think a nice Japanese Gagaku album
was also in that collection. If you decide to check
out don't miss "Guitare Hawaiene Authentique" (I don't
speak French, sorry about the spelling) and a
collection of Sephardic tunes.
Sorry about the rachitic info but I don't have those
Cds at hand right now.

Best,

EfrΘn del Valle

> To: <[e-mail]>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2002 12:22 PM
> Subject: world music
>
>
> > Hello and once again welcome to the
> > world of help Chad find new music.
> >
> > I'm looking for any suggestions of 'World Music'
> > I like Nusrat, Jajouka, and Hamzel El Din and I'm
> still on the hunt for
> > more.
> >
> > Thanks ahead of time.
> >
> > Chad
> >
> > P.S. regarding break-up cd's
> > any Leonard Cohen cd satisfies my mood swing
> heartaches
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
_________________________________________________________________
> > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
> http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
> >
> >
> > -
> >
> >
>
>
> -
>

_______________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Messenger
Comunicaci≤n instantßnea gratis con tu gente.
http://messenger.yahoo.es

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From: Geert Buelens <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: and the opposite of & something completely different
Date: 06 Mar 2002 19:57:29 +0100

> At 10:27 AM -0800 3/4/02, skip Heller wrote:
> >So -- what does the list list as best "new love in
> bloom" music?
>
> Al Green, Al Green, Al Green and Al Green. I was in a
> bar in Berkeley once and suddenly found myself
> duetting "Still in Love With You" with a woman I'd
> never met before in my life, just because we'd both
> just happened to walk to the bar for another round at
> the same time. It was amazing -- he's ATOMIC SPANISH
> FLY!

i kinda like bill withers 'lovely day'.

on an entirely different note: for a piece on (free) jazz and policital
(freedom) movements in the 1960s, i'm looking for interesting
books/articles dealing with this subject. (i already have valerie
wilmer's "as serious as your life"). thanks,

geert




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From: Mark Saleski <[e-mail]>
Subject: Miles Copeland defends the record industry
Date: 06 Mar 2002 15:12:25 -0500



the following article surfaced in one of my exotica mailing list
digests. i was wondering what you all thought about it.

http://www.riaa.org/Guest_Column031500.cfm

--
Mark Saleski - [e-mail] | http://www.foliage.com/~marks
"Music is spiritual. The music business is not." - Van Morrison



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From: "s~Z" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Just My Luck
Date: 06 Mar 2002 12:44:49 -0800

She's looking into my eyes, she's holding my hand
She's looking into my eyes, she's holding my hand
She says, "You can't repeat the past." I say, "You can't? What do
you mean, you can't? Of course you can."

Where do you come from? Where do you go?
Sorry that's nothin' you would need to know
Well, my back has been to the wall for so long, it seems like it's
stuck
Why don't you break my heart one more time just for good luck

   --from 'Summer Days' off _Love and Theft_.


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From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Miles Copeland defends the record industry
Date: 06 Mar 2002 15:44:57 -0500

> the following article surfaced in one of my exotica mailing list

Most of it's true enough but stops short.  Anybody who's ever worked in any kind of retail industry realizes that the claims that since a CD costs only $1 (his example but I've more often heard anywhere from $3 to $6) to manufacture doesn't mean that $16 final price is overcharging.  The physical costs are usually the least important.  But what he doesn't point out is that this final price might be high because of inept or entrenched management, outdated industry practices, overspending, short changing artists because the companies have the position of power, or simply because they want the prices to be the same as everybody else's.  In other words, $16 might not be overpriced under the current system but that doesn't mean the system is a good one.  As for the companies not showing much of a profit on their annual reports, well maybe and maybe not but that doesn't mean that some of the people working for them aren't well compensated.  (Certainly not all since the lower level e!
mployees at a major label probably aren't any better off than they would be anywhere else.)  And the "Internet geniuses" who can't make money?  No, it's the business people like Copeland who can't.  The Internet geniuses built the damn thing and designed peer-to-peer file sharing and compression technology and historically have actually opposed making money off the Internet.  And just look at the recent report in the New York Times about the major labels' own online services where not only were they paying artists an almost trivial amount but the labels didn't even get permission (several bands like No Doubt had their music removed until the labels negotiated properly).

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Miles Copeland defends the record industry
Date: 06 Mar 2002 12:59:55 -0800

on 3/6/02 12:12 PM, Mark Saleski at [e-mail] wrote:

>
>
> the following article surfaced in one of my exotica mailing list
> digests. i was wondering what you all thought about it.
>
> http://www.riaa.org/Guest_Column031500.cfm

Gee, Miles is painting in broad strokes, isnt he?

He makes a few valid points, espec with regard to new companies not having
catalog to rely on for bedrock sales over time, but he's ignoring some basic
stuff.

One of the things that has screwed the industry is greed on boths sides of
the table.  Labels offer big advances to artists, advances that are unlikely
to be recouped.  Artists want the money, but the unfortunately tendancy is
to be short-sighted.

Let's look at this from a theoretical downtown music standpoint and you'll
see what I mean.

Say Mark Feldman catches the ear of an A&R guy at Sony, just at a time when
Sony is feeling the need to revamp their jazz roster and what it represents
out in the marketplace.

So Mark is courted and eventually wooed by Mr Sony, who tells him to
contract any players he likes as artistic freedom is part of the deal.  Mr
Feldman responds by hiring, say, Klucevsek on accordion, Erik friedlander on
cello, and Milford Graves (as long as we're being theoretical, let's dream
big).  he gets Dave Douglas to play on a couple tunes.  The advahnce is
healthy enough that he not only pays everybody three times what they usually
get, but he pockets a helluva a lot more than you will with HatArt.

So Feldman makes his album, and the Zorn list thinks it's bitchen, ads are
taken in Downbeat and similar publications, but mainstream jazz radio (who
have had fantastic luck with Brad and Josh R) won't touch it.  There no
standard songs, and -- with no bass or piano -- nothing straight-ahead
enough to program next to "Dat Dere" or any of their other perennial
choices.  The record barely sells, and Feldman's deal is done.  Record
stores return the thing in droves.  Also, he's paying anywhere from five to
seven dollars a copy for copies to sell off the bandstand.

The party is over in a hurry.  Even worse, when the artist returns to smmall
label-land to put out his new record, his advance sales to stores suffer,
because stores remember returning his last opus in DROVES.  It's a very
effective form of negative publicity for his next record, and probably the
most concrete.  And the jazz sections of stores are given less physical
(floor space) expansion opportunities, because jazz records sell less than
rock, and new rock always will beat jazz for pure dollars and therefore
floorspace.

In the non-mainstream world, sales of 30,000 are multi-platinum.  Straight
ahead jazz records are really really lucky to do 5,000 copies, and in many
if not most cases the kind of stuff we beat our chests over on this list
barely break 1,000.  To a label as big as Sony, we'd have to escalate to be
worth peanuts.  We're micro-peanuts.

One thing Miles Copeland does not seem to understand is that, because
audiences have been developed in super-specific ways, there is more
splintering of clientele than there used to be.  "Jazz" used to mean a
certain thing, but the average Bill frisell consumer is not neccessarily the
average Cecil Taylor consumer is not neccessarily the average Art Blakey
consumer and so forth.

But major labels do not want to deal with small sales, even though a record
with low sales numbers can make money if it's recorded for a reasonable
budget and promoted accordingly.

Oone practical answer might be if majors opened up their own outpost
branches and saw how well what they signed and recorded for $10,000 did in
the marketplace before dumping $30,000 into it.  But everybody is deeply
into playing a numbers game to the point where that looks unlikely anytime
soon.

As for the net, what Miles does not seem to realize is that audiences know
how to use the net more than labels do.  Davedouglas.com has probably been a
more relevant promo tool than just about anything else for Dave's various
projects and how his profile is maintained.  It works like that for most of
us who live in the margins, too.

But until the "bigger is better" mentality is dismissed both by artists and
labels alike, there will be trouble.  The first question the artist should
ask is, "Am I better off at Sony, or at [fill in the name of smaller label
who actually stays in business selling this stuff]? "

The practical reality is that he's better off at [    ], but will take the
major label payday, when he probably should have stayed small, as his
records are not really made for a crossover audience (think of a Josh redman
fan checking out Ellery eskelin to dig what I mean by "crossover").

To wit -- those of you who attend the Alex/Nels Cline-promoted shows in
Eagle Rock might know an Italian restaurant up the street called Julio's,
which closed not so long ago, even tho it did big business.  The buiding and
liquor license came up for sale for big $.

Up the street is a smaller, Mom & Pop establishment called the Capri, a
little joint with probably a dozen tables.  I asked Pop (whose name is
actually Dick) if he was going to look into moving into Julio's.

"Hell no.  How many pizzas do you think I can sell?"

If record labels and artists took this attitude, things might be healthier
for us all.

skip h


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Perfect Sound Forever <[e-mail]>
Subject: Oskar Sala obit- German translation
Date: 06 Mar 2002 16:02:13 -0500

Hello all,

I was given another obituary for German electronic music pioneer Oskar
Sala <http://www.furious.com/perfect/ohm/oskarsala.html>.  Sad to say,
it's all in German and it's about a page or two long.  If I may be so
bold, can anyone out there help with translation?  The online services
like Babblefish really aren't sufficient for this kind of thing.

Thanks in advance,
Jason Gross
--

Perfect Sound Forever
online music magazine
[e-mail]
http://www.furious.com/perfect



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Ricardo=20Campillo?= <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: world music
Date: 06 Mar 2002 22:26:38 +0100 (CET)

 --- gorilla thing <[e-mail]>
escribi≤: > Hello and once again welcome to the
> world of help Chad find new music.
>
> I'm looking for any suggestions of 'World Music'
> I like Nusrat, Jajouka, and Hamzel El Din and I'm
> still on the hunt for
> more.
>
> Thanks ahead of time.
>
> Chad
>
> P.S. regarding break-up cd's
> any Leonard Cohen cd satisfies my mood swing
> heartaches
>
>
>
>
>
_______________________________________________________

I'm not a speciallist, but i find something
interesting:
Obbiously Ravi Shankar.
A magical singer Lakshmi Shankar.
A strange cd called "Arnhem Land"-australian
aboriginal songs and dances.
And some japanese: Gagaku.
And tibetan ritual music: Lamas and Monks of The Four
Great Orders.
and that's all.

Regards.

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ricardo Reis <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: world music
Date: 06 Mar 2002 22:03:03 +0000 (WET)


> also, i strongly recommend Amelia Rodriguez for soulful Portuguese Fado =
> singing.
>
> for starters.....
> m

    :) that's a great recommendation but she is Rodrigues with an 's'
at the end and not a 'z' (oh, hell, who cares?). but if you're going that
way naybe you could check Simone de Oliveira and, from what is called
"fado malandro" (devious fado, a kind of fado who appeals to the "little
bad guys") try Alfredo Marceneiro.

            greets,
                 Ricardo Reis

                "Non Serviam"


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: William Crump <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: World Music
Date: 06 Mar 2002 18:23:25 -0800 (PST)

A Gorilla-Thing named Chad wrote:

>>I'm looking for any suggestions of 'World Music'<<

There's an Indian mandolin player (no, really) named
U. Srinivas who really knocks my socks out. I don't
have much of his stuff, but I can definitely recommend
"Rama Sreerama," on the Realworld label.

William Crump

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: World Music/Just My Luck
Date: 06 Mar 2002 22:03:54 -0600

You can't really go wrong w/ any of the recent Fela Kuti reissues -- at
least, I haven't found one yet that I don't love or at least like very
much.

I've heard some real wussy stuff on Putamayo, but I like the Habib Koite
album I got as a bonus in the WWOZ pledge drive.  It has that circularity I
love in Sunny Ade's music, and Koite's voice has a lovely warmth. The music
has a lightness but it's very percussive, a neat combination.

I loved the first Manu Chao album, didn't pick up the second because it
seems to sound too much like a rehash of the first, from what I've heard --
if anyone thinks it's really worth getting, let me know.  I wish I could
remember which of the Ethiopiques series were my favorites, they're lost in
the morass at the moment.  And I like everything I've heard of Khaled so
far, three or four albums.

Baaba Maal has such a wonderful voice, but there was that one album that
was too crossover for me, maybe someone else knows the one I mean.... Has
anyone heard any recent Les Negresses Vertes?  I had a couple of theirs on
vinyl and saw some new import CDs at Tower but I seem to recall one of the
main guys had died?  They used to sound kind of like French Gypsy Pogues.

>Why don't you break my heart one more time just for good luck?

My favorite line in a song all year.  All the lyrics on that album are
brilliant, but that song is just especially sublimely funny.

Parry



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Efr=E9n=20del=20Valle?= <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fwd: World Music/Just My Luck
Date: 07 Mar 2002 09:42:09 +0100 (CET)

 > I loved the first Manu Chao album, didn't pick up
> the second because it
> seems to sound too much like a rehash of the first,
> from what I've heard --
> if anyone thinks it's really worth getting, let me
> know.

Absolutely not.

EfrΘn del Valle

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Marcin Gokieli" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Odp: Stravinsky and remastering
Date: 07 Mar 2002 11:52:09 +0100

The '92 Boulez version is really great. But the stravinsky recording has
more attention paid to the quieter parts, and, without being that explosive,
certainly has its merits. And Petroushka is smuch better on 'stravinsky
conducts stravinsky' then on the boulez disc.
Other good versions of the rite are the Ozawa recording from the '60s with
Boston SO - very wild, with a very dirty, aggresive sound. Ant a fantastic
recording by Claudio Abbado & LSO  from the '70s, now avaialble as a part of
a great (and cheap - kind of 'two for the proce of one') 2CD Deutsche
Grammophon set. Fast, loud, and brillant
Marcin

----- Original Message -----


I'm not sure Strawinsky conducting Strawinsky is really a reference in
itself,
whether remastered or not.

If you want to own a definitive, breathtaking, state-of-the-art recording of
"Sacre du Printemps", I would recommend you spend your bucks on the 1992
Deutsche Grammophon CD by Pierre Boulez with the Cleveland Orchestra (also
including "Petrushka"), and which is not to be confused with a ca.1970
version.





-



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Marcin Gokieli" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Odp: Stravinsky and remastering
Date: 07 Mar 2002 11:57:27 +0100


----- Original Message -----

> Strawinsky is quite interesting since, if I remember well, the rhythm on
one
> of his direction of the Rite of the Spring is quite different from anybody
> else.

He was very critical of many version of the rite. he criticised von
Karajan's recording very strongly, saying that he conducts the piece as if
it had been Brahms, and wrote, as a  conclusion of his critique  (one of the
best statemnts on music): "In the Rite of sprong there's no place for
anxiety of the soul"
Marcin


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Sean Westergaard" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: World Music
Date: 07 Mar 2002 08:33:24 -0500


There's an Indian mandolin player (no, really) named
U. Srinivas who really knocks my socks out. I don't
have much of his stuff, but I can definitely recommend
"Rama Sreerama," on the Realworld label.

William Crump

i second the motion for U. Srinivas.  Dawn Raga is another winner.  also on
the Indian tip, there's a great slide guitar player named Brij Bhushan
Kabra.  His recordings aren't so easy to find, but there is one called Call
of the Valley on EMI Hemishperes.  It's Kabra, Hariprasad Chaurasia on flute
and Shivkumar Sharma on santoor.  it's absolutely beautiful.

there's also a series that i believe has been discussed on the list earlier.
it's the Ethiopiques series on Buda and it's amazing. Ethiopian pop music
from the 60's and 70's.  i've got the first 7 volumes and i've heard stuff
off 8 & 9.  wow.

sean


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Mark Saleski <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Miles Copeland defends the record industry
Date: 07 Mar 2002 09:04:26 -0500


when miles was listing all of the costs of producing a recording
(signing, marketing, etc)...he does in fact list 'recording'...i thought
that it was quite common for the company to charge this cost to the
artist, to be subtracted from royalties (assuming that there are any).


>Gee, Miles is painting in broad strokes, isnt he?

>He makes a few valid points, espec with regard to new companies not having
>catalog to rely on for bedrock sales over time, but he's ignoring some basic
>stuff.


--
Mark Saleski - [e-mail] | http://www.foliage.com/~marks
"Music is spiritual. The music business is not." - Van Morrison



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tosh <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Miles Copeland defends the record industry
Date: 07 Mar 2002 06:18:56 -0800

I thought his comments were interesting, but can we trust someone
who's father was the head of the CIA?  He he
--
Tosh Berman
TamTam Books
http://www.tamtambooks.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: the copelands...
Date: 07 Mar 2002 09:35:48 EST


In a message dated 03.07.02 09.18.23, [e-mail] writes:

>I thought his comments were interesting, but can we trust someone
>who's father was the head of the CIA?  He he

in an old book about athens, georgia, called 'Party Out of Bounds', there is
a great piece of information about the copelands -

the CIA connection,
IRS records,
and The Police.

just a factoid...

l,  k8.




---
[.n0thing.is.what.is.sAid.]
k a t e  p e t e r s o n
c o m p o s e r / p e r f o r m e r

http://www.geocities.com/uforbk8/kate.html
http://www.icefoundation.org (roundtable)

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:    [e-mail] (Patrick Carey)
Subject: Re: Anja Garbarek (no JZ content)
Date: 07 Mar 2002 10:54:56 -0500

* "David Evans" <[e-mail]>:
>According to what I've heard, Smiling and Waving is much
>more mature and individual than her first album.

"Balloon Mood" (1996) is Anja's _second_ record.
Her debut, "Velkommen Inn", which is oop, came out in 1992. ;)


-Patrick





-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: hyper-ballad
Date: 07 Mar 2002 12:54:41 EST

i'm not sure that the lyrics i perceive as sad are a subtext --

i go through all this
before you wake up
so i can feel happier
to be safe up here with you

i don't hear that as a declaration of love so much as i hear it as a woman saying "being with you is really awful, but would i be better off alone?" --

i imagine what my body would sound like
slamming against those rocks
and when it lands
will my eyes
be closed or open?

i just see it as "will i see my demise (alone or with this relationship) or will it strike me as a surprise?"

<shrug>  never thought of it as a subtext.

love,
  k8.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: jason tors <[e-mail]>
Subject: software: Ikue Mori and others [njzc]
Date: 07 Mar 2002 09:56:51 -0800 (PST)

I started dabbling in digital sound manipulation, and I am wondering
what applications laptop musicians [like ikue] tend to use. I am really
at the beginning stages of discovery using soundedit in conjunction
with protools, do any of you know of any other helpful [free or not]
apps.

thanks
J

np: waits, mule variations [in anticipation of the new releases]

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Zachary Steiner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Scott Fields and Jeff Parker
Date: 07 Mar 2002 13:12:38 -0500

Has any one heard the new Scott Fields and Jeff Parker collaboration?
I'm really curious as to what they sound like.  We are considering
presenting them and I want to know what to expect so that I can make an
informed decision.  Thanks in advance.

Zach



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: thesubtlebody <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: software: Ikue Mori and others [njzc]
Date: 07 Mar 2002 10:50:32 -0800 (PST)

--- jason tors <[e-mail]> wrote:
> I started dabbling in digital sound manipulation,
> and I am wondering
> what applications laptop musicians [like ikue] tend
> to use.

If you use a PC, there's a great piece of graphic
sound software called Audiomulch
(http://www.audiomulch.com) that's intended for
performance as well as composition.  An expensive but
ridiculously powerful program called Reaktor is
available for both PC and Mac platforms
(http://www.native-instruments.de), and a really
inetersting and fertile environment for Mac (and
allegedly, for PC, any month now...) called MAX/MSP
(technically two programs, see
http://www.cycling74.com), which are also widely used
(at one point at least, this is apparently mainly what
Tetsu Inoue was using...and I highly recommend his
Tzadik record FRAGMENT DOTS, fine record...I wonder
how PSYCHO ACOUSTIC compares?).  MAX and Reaktor are
pretty pricey, though.  The inventor of MAX is
developing freeware called PD (aka Pure Data), which I
think runs on Windows NT only
(http://gige.xdv.org/pages/pd/pages/links).  There is
also the mighty Csound (http://www.csounds.com ),
which is free for both Mac and PC, and if you choose
this path, I highly recommend checking out the CSOUND
BOOK, edited by Richard Boulanger (I think).  You
might also check out:
http://music.calarts.edu/~tre/CompMusMac/
http://shoko.calarts.edu/CompMusPC/

I would also welcome any pointers; this is just
something I've been getting into lately myself.  I
hope the field matures and develops further; there's
exciting stuff being done.  Has Ikue Mori gone purely
to computer music now?  Does she not use her older
sampling equipment in performance?

-----s

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Re: software: Ikue Mori and others [njzc]
Date: 07 Mar 2002 15:05:08 -0500

>If you use a PC, there's a great piece of graphic
>sound software called Audiomulch

I've also used Gold Wave with good results, often in conjunction with Audiomulch.  Gold Wave is more of an editor and Audiomulch more a sound generator but that's only very roughly speaking.  There are other editors with more tracks than Gold Wave's two but Gold Wave was fine for what I was doing (& I kinda liked the restriction).  I've toyed with about a dozen other programs with more specific functions but can't remember any of their names off-hand.

The big industry powerhouse Power Tools offers a smaller home use version for free.  I've heard from people who were quite happy with it but the system requirements were pretty high and would have been right on the edge for my computer so I never felt it was worth fiddling with.

LT

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: software: Ikue Mori and others [njzc]
Date: 07 Mar 2002 15:07:36 -0600

On Thu, Mar 07, 2002 at 10:50:32AM -0800, thesubtlebody wrote:

>  The inventor of MAX is
> developing freeware called PD (aka Pure Data), which I
> think runs on Windows NT only
> (http://gige.xdv.org/pages/pd/pages/links).

It's also available on (and native to) Linux and other UNIX-like
OSes (I use it on a Linux laptop). http://www.pure-data.org/

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Efr=E9n=20del=20Valle?= <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fwd: Re: software: Ikue Mori and others [njzc]
Date: 07 Mar 2002 22:36:15 +0100 (CET)

Hi,

Has Ikue Mori gone
> purely
> to computer music now?  Does she not use her older
> sampling equipment in performance?
>
> -----s

It depends. On the DD's "Witness" show I saw here she
was only using the Mac laptop but her latest CD on
Tzadik, Labyrynth, features both computer and drum
machines. I guess the laptop is much more confortable
to go on tour!

Best,

EfrΘn del Valle
n.p: Chicago Underground Quartet "s.t" (Thrill Jockey)

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Kurt Gottschalk" <[e-mail]>
Subject: early zorn box set
Date: 08 Mar 2002 16:00:23 +0000

i'm nowhere near paying $500 for this, but it's worth a look. i just saw it
on ebay -- a handmade (by jz) box set of the parachute titles. the seller
(not i) has a lot of photos up, too.

have a look: Item # 850135812



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Efr=E9n=20del=20Valle?= <[e-mail]>
Subject: Patton's bad taste?!
Date: 08 Mar 2002 17:26:28 +0100 (CET)

Hi,

Last week a Catalan newspaper supplement seems to have
featured a brief article on Mike Patton/Tomahawk and a
trustable source that read it says it also mentioned
some curious Patton
projects/collaborations/performances, being one of
them Patton himself with a chorus of kids with DownÆs
sindrome. Funny? Certainly not. Could be a joke in a
very poor taste or something Patton just made up, like
when he declared in a press conference that he was an
homosexual (as far as I know, heÆs not)

Anyone knows something about this? I havenÆt read
anything on the list about it, so I guess itÆs just a
rumour- otherwise it would have come up, thatÆs for
sure.

However, I remember reading once about an American
producer who gathered five or six boys with DownÆs
syndrome for a recording session and the LP actually
hit the streets and has become a collectorÆs item (for
some freaks, I assume). Awful.

Best,
EfrΘn del Valle


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Patton's bad taste?!
Date: 08 Mar 2002 11:42:44 EST

the project you are talking about is The Kids of Widney High. patton's record label, ipecac recordings, released one of their albums. patton is not involved with the project. it's not meant to be funny, patton genuinly likes these guys. there is some info about them at: www.ipecac.com
jason

> Last week a Catalan newspaper supplement seems to have
> featured a brief article on Mike Patton/Tomahawk and a
> trustable source that read it says it also mentioned
> some curious Patton >projects/collaborations/performances, being one of
> them Patton himself with a chorus of kids with Down’s
> sindrome. Funny? Certainly not.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Efr=E9n=20del=20Valle?= <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fwd: Re: Patton's bad taste?!
Date: 08 Mar 2002 17:51:54 +0100 (CET)

>I knew about this project, but looking at the
> pictures
> of the kids I didn't find any treats that made them
> look as suffering from any mental diseases. I'd
> swear
> I'd read they had problems, but not of this nature.
>
> EfrΘn del Valle
>
> >
> > the project you are talking about is The Kids of
> > Widney High. patton's record label, ipecac
> > recordings, released one of their albums. patton
> is
> > not involved with the project. it's not meant to
> be
> > funny, patton genuinly likes these guys. there is
> > some info about them at: www.ipecac.com
> > jason
> >
> > > Last week a Catalan newspaper supplement seems
> to
> > have
> > > featured a brief article on Mike Patton/Tomahawk
> > and a
> > > trustable source that read it says it also
> > mentioned
> > > some curious Patton
> > >projects/collaborations/performances, being one
> of
> > > them Patton himself with a chorus of kids with
> > DownÆs
> > > sindrome. Funny? Certainly not.
> >
> > -
> >
>
>
_______________________________________________________________
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> Yahoo! Messenger
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> http://messenger.yahoo.es
>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Efr=E9n=20del=20Valle?= <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fwd: Re: Patton's bad taste?!
Date: 08 Mar 2002 18:25:33 +0100 (CET)


> >I knew about this project, but looking at the
> > pictures
> > of the kids I didn't find any treats that made
> them
> > look as suffering from any mental diseases

When I said "treats" I actually ment "traits".

EfrΘn del Valle

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "josephneff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: World Music/Skip James/Procol Harum/Fields & Parker
Date: 08 Mar 2002 13:16:11 -0500

Hello,
     ....on the topic of world sounds, I want to recommend the first vol. of
"The Secret Museum of Mankind" on Yazoo. It's a compilation of music from
various countries, all recorded before 1950 that presents a very engaging
cross section of sounds that were captured by an embryonic recording
industry that had yet to form solid ideas regarding what would sell. So,
they tried just about anything. Most of the stuff comes from the '20's, and
the variety of artistry that has been preserved is quite formidable. Hearing
Effisio Melis of Sardinia throw down a completely timeless and alien
sounding workout on the launeddas (an ancient triple pipe)is just one of the
joys of this disc. There are further vol.'s in the series that I've yet to
buy, but I can recommend this on w/out reservation.
    I have the fist two vol.'s in the "Ethiopiques" series, and will third or
fourth the praise for those discs.

    ...someone asked who performed the blues song from "Ghost World". I didn't
see a reply, so here you go, a bit late. It's "Devil Got My Woman" by Skip
James. Great movie, IMO.

    ...the talk on Procol Harum prompted me to pull out there first album and
"A Salty Dog", both great LP's. I've always admired how they used the organ
in their music. Organs in rock music can often come out sounding quite
grizzly. Not here. The first rec. has "Whiter Shade", plus "Conquistador",
and my fave track from "A Salty Dog" is "Boredom", which reminds me of early
Traffic.

    ...regarding the post on Scott Fields and Jeff Parker, I'd recommend the CD
"Denouement" by the Scott Fields Ensemble which has Parker, Hamid Drake,
Michael Zerang, Hans Sturm, and Jason Roebke. I haven't heard the new one,
but this one is great. Two electric guitars, two drummers, two basses. The
disc is jazzy improv that slowly builds into a snakey interweaving of
strings and rhythm. The guitars are distortionless, and the way Fields and
Parker's playing mingles together sounds rather nice to me. Drake is Drake,
and everyone sounds good, also. If this disc is still around (released 1999)
it's worth it. I'd like to hear them expand this group to include a horn or
two.

    I remain....

    Joseph

    NP: Lothar and the Hand People- "Presenting..." CD
    NR: Stanley Elkin- "Criers and Kibitzers, Kibitzers and Criers"


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Patton's bad taste?!
Date: 08 Mar 2002 12:53:23 -0600

On Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 05:26:28PM +0100, Efr=E9n del Valle wrote:
> Last week a Catalan newspaper supplement seems to have
> featured a brief article on Mike Patton/Tomahawk and a
> trustable source that read it says it also mentioned
> some curious Patton
> projects/collaborations/performances, being one of
> them Patton himself with a chorus of kids with Down=92s
> sindrome. Funny? Certainly not. Could be a joke in a
> very poor taste or something Patton just made up, like
> when he declared in a press conference that he was an
> homosexual (as far as I know, he=92s not)=20

Why would this be considered a joke in bad taste when, say, Reynols is
not and the Special Olympics are lauded?

--=20
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Silent Watcher" <[e-mail]>
Subject: OT: More Knitting F/Shimmy Disc ebay CDsà
Date: 08 Mar 2002 14:00:48 -0500

Sorry for the intrusion again, but I just posted another small batch of
Knitting Factory/Shimmy Disc CDs on ebay again. Pachora, Mark Dresser (w/
Dave Douglas), King Missle and others.

http://cgi6.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?MfcISAPICommand=ViewListedItems&userid=SLNTWTCHR&include=0&since=-1&sort=3&rows=25

more to follow, but please let me know if anyone is bothered by these
postsà.

Dave


_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: OT: More Knitting F/Shimmy Disc ebay CDs
Date: 08 Mar 2002 11:08:03 -0800


On Fri, 08 Mar 2002 14:00:48 -0500  "Silent Watcher" wrote:
>
> Sorry for the intrusion again, but I just posted another small batch of
> Knitting Factory/Shimmy Disc CDs on ebay again. Pachora, Mark Dresser (w/
> Dave Douglas), King Missle and others.

What's the use of putting on E-bay things that are still available?

Are people using E-bay like a record store selling second hand records?

    Patrice (just curious).

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: duncan youngerman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Winwood/Traffic
Date: 08 Mar 2002 20:46:37 +0100



josephneff a =E9crit :

>
>
>         =2E=2E=2Ethe talk on Procol Harum prompted me to pull out there fi=
rst album and
> "A Salty Dog", both great LP's=2E I've always admired how they used the or=
gan
> in their music=2E Organs in rock music can often come out sounding quite
> grizzly=2E Not here=2E The first rec=2E has "Whiter Shade", plus "Conquist=
ador",
> and my fave track from "A Salty Dog" is "Boredom", which reminds me of ear=
ly
> Traffic=2E

-Let's hear it for Steve Winwood and Traffic (early, middle or late)!

DY=2E

>


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Alan Marshall" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn List Digest V3 #811
Date: 08 Mar 2002 19:59:40 -0000

Hi

Alternatively you could think that Patton is giving these kids a break by
putting out their records on www.ipecac.com see The Kids of Widney High. I'm
guessign that's the band the article was refering to.

From what I've read in interviews with Patton and the lable co-manager  Greg
Werckman , he was given a tape, and was impressed, so is giving
them a chance, to prove to others that their disabilities are not a problem
for them making music, or maybe I'm just too gullible ;)

I haven't heard there music so I can't comment on that though

Al

> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 17:26:28 +0100 (CET)
> From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Efr=E9n=20del=20Valle?= <[e-mail]>
> Subject: Patton's bad taste?!
>
> Hi,
>
> Last week a Catalan newspaper supplement seems to have
> featured a brief article on Mike Patton/Tomahawk and a
> trustable source that read it says it also mentioned
> some curious Patton
> projects/collaborations/performances, being one of
> them Patton himself with a chorus of kids with DownÆs
> sindrome. Funny? Certainly not. Could be a joke in a
> very poor taste or something Patton just made up, like
> when he declared in a press conference that he was an
> homosexual (as far as I know, heÆs not)
>
> Anyone knows something about this? I havenÆt read
> anything on the list about it, so I guess itÆs just a
> rumour- otherwise it would have come up, thatÆs for
> sure.
>
> However, I remember reading once about an American
> producer who gathered five or six boys with DownÆs
> syndrome for a recording session and the LP actually
> hit the streets and has become a collectorÆs item (for
> some freaks, I assume). Awful.
>
> Best,
> EfrΘn del Valle
>
>
> _______________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Messenger
> Comunicaci≤n instantßnea gratis con tu gente.
> http://messenger.yahoo.es
>
> - -



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Efr=E9n=20del=20Valle?= <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fwd: Re: Patton's bad taste?!
Date: 08 Mar 2002 22:09:26 +0100 (CET)

Hi,

Joseph Zitt wrote:
>
> Why would this be considered a joke in bad taste
> when, say, Reynols is
> not and the Special Olympics are lauded?
>

I wouldn't regard Patton as very supportive with
humanitary causes at first sight, and I'd look a
project of his in this vein with suspicion.

EfrΘn del Valle
n.p: Radiohead "Amnesiac"

_______________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Messenger
Comunicaci≤n instantßnea gratis con tu gente.
http://messenger.yahoo.es

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Efr=E9n=20del=20Valle?= <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fwd: Re: Patton's bad taste?!
Date: 08 Mar 2002 22:09:26 +0100 (CET)

Hi,

Joseph Zitt wrote:
>
> Why would this be considered a joke in bad taste
> when, say, Reynols is
> not and the Special Olympics are lauded?
>

I wouldn't regard Patton as very supportive with
humanitary causes at first sight, and I'd look a
project of his in this vein with suspicion.

EfrΘn del Valle
n.p: Radiohead "Amnesiac"

_______________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Messenger
Comunicaci≤n instantßnea gratis con tu gente.
http://messenger.yahoo.es

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jim Flannery <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Patton's bad taste?!
Date: 08 Mar 2002 14:22:39 -0800

Efr=E9n del Valle wrote:

>=20
> I wouldn't regard Patton as very supportive with
> humanitary causes at first sight, and I'd look a
> project of his in this vein with suspicion.

Why is this any more or less "humanitary" than releasing a Fred Frith=20
record? Are people with DS somehow disqualified from making music?

--=20
Jim Flannery                                           [e-mail]



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:    [e-mail] (Patrick Carey)
Subject: Manu Chao (was: World Music/Just My Luck)
Date: 08 Mar 2002 18:42:34 -0500

* [e-mail]:
>I loved the first Manu Chao album, didn't pick up the second because it
>seems to sound too much like a rehash of the first, from what I've heard
>-- if anyone thinks it's really worth getting, let me know.

* [e-mail]:
>Absolutely not.

Well, I _completely_ disagree, but that's what this list is for ...

;-)


-Patrick



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Patton's bad taste?!
Date: 08 Mar 2002 18:08:47 -0600

On Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 10:09:26PM +0100, Efr=E9n del Valle wrote:

> Joseph Zitt wrote:
> >=20
> > Why would this be considered a joke in bad taste
> > when, say, Reynols is
> > not and the Special Olympics are lauded?
>=20
> I wouldn't regard Patton as very supportive with
> humanitary causes at first sight, and I'd look a
> project of his in this vein with suspicion.

Why? Do you have any evidence of antihumanitarian tendencies, or is
this just a baseless  prejudice?

--=20
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Arthur Gadney" <[e-mail]>
Subject: A bit more cello
Date: 09 Mar 2002 12:30:59 +0000

Hey people.

Thanks for all your recommendations on cello records a while back.

I just have one more question: Fred Lonberg-Holm?

I saw him play with The Flying Luttenbachers which was pure grindcore impro.
He basically tortured his intrument and made it feedback in ways which would
make Thurston Moore cover his ears (okay, maybe it doesn't take all that
much to do that, after all... :-)

But, then I just heard him play some of the most beautiful improvised
melodic cello on one of the Boxhead Ensemble CDs.

So what gives. Any further recommendations for this guy?

Thanks again.

NP: Eugene Chadbourne: "America's New New War" (new batch of protest country
songs. Good!)
NR: "9-11" by Noam Chomsky (very good and informative)

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Efr=E9n=20del=20Valle?= <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fwd: Re: Fwd: Re: Patton's bad taste?!
Date: 09 Mar 2002 14:51:05 +0100 (CET)

>
> Why? Do you have any evidence of antihumanitarian
> tendencies, or is
> this just a baseless  prejudice?
>
> --
> | [e-mail]

It's absolutely baseless. But after reading tons of
Patton interviews I've created an image of him to
myself, and it's not exactly close to Mother Teresa of
Calculta, so to speak.

And with regard to what Jim Flannery said, it's
obviously not the same to release a Fred Frith album
than one featuring kids with DS, unless the latter is
published with a clear purpose. Let's not be na∩ve.

EfrΘn del Valle


_______________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Messenger
Comunicaci≤n instantßnea gratis con tu gente.
http://messenger.yahoo.es

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jim Flannery <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Fwd: Re: Patton's bad taste?!
Date: 09 Mar 2002 12:58:16 -0800

Efr=E9n del Valle wrote:

>=20
> And with regard to what Jim Flannery said, it's
> obviously not the same to release a Fred Frith album
> than one featuring kids with DS, unless the latter is
> published with a clear purpose. Let's not be na=EFve.

Really, when I said "HOW is it different", I wasn't looking for an=20
adverb like OBVIOUSLY, I was looking for an explanation of *what that=20
obvious difference IS*, because I think the answer might be errrr=20
"interesting". Let's neither of us be "na=EFve".

--=20
Jim Flannery                                           [e-mail]

         "Unexamined assumptions and axioms can be collected the
          way one might collect stamps."
                                                 -- James Elkins
np: Stooges, _Funhouse Sessions_, Disc Six
nr: Philip K. Dick, _The Dark Haired Girl_


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: hatta <[e-mail]>
Subject: *Sigh* Record Players
Date: 09 Mar 2002 14:57:22 -0800

First off let me state that I hate records and "vinyl" &c. I know I
have just alienated a fraction of the group but perhaps this mea
culpa will suffice:  I need to buy a "turntable" due to this
increasing amount of records I have been acquiring from the
pretentious "vinyl only" trend.  So what do people recommend for a
person to purchase who doesn't want to blow the "proverbial wad" and
intends to only use the record player to transfer the records to the
more user friendly CD.

(As a side note I do have quite a bit of sympathy for the audiophile
crowd, I just hate the ~30min per side, flipping them over, low
durability, large size etc of records. I hate laserdiscs too ;) I am
holding out for SACD, DVD-audio what have you for my audiophile
needs.  Plus my amp/speakers are too cut rate to really worry much
about it at all.  My real dream is high bit rate solid state storage
of some kind.)

Another thing has anybody caught 'Mono' (of recent Tzadik release
"fame") on their current US tour and if so what do you think?  I
missed them by one day due to work, and am wondering if I should
regret it.

thanks,
Robert
--
"It would be a dangerous delusion, were a confidence in the men of
our choice to silence our fear for the safety of our rights.
Confidence is everywhere the parent of despotism.  Free government is
founded in jealousy and not in confidence."

-Thomas Jefferson

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jim Flannery <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: *Sigh* Record Players
Date: 09 Mar 2002 16:08:22 -0800

hatta wrote:

> So what do people recommend for a person to purchase who doesn't

 > want to blow the "proverbial wad" and intends to only use the record
 > player to transfer the records


The only limits there are, you want the player to be good *enough* that
you're getting a reasonable reproduction of what's actually on the
vinyl, and you want to not *damage* the record in the process.


For your purposes, you'd probably be happy with the Music Hall MMF-2.1,
a decent entry-level table that'll run you less than $300. I *would*
advise buying from a real (meatspace) dealer rather than mail/web order,
as you're probably better off having the shop set up the table (install
cartridge, balance arm, etc.) than trying to do it yourself the first
time at home.

--
Jim Flannery                                           [e-mail]

         "Unexamined assumptions and axioms can be collected the
          way one might collect stamps."
                                                 -- James Elkins
np: Ash Castles on the Ghost Coast, _s/t_
nr: Philip K. Dick, _The Dark Haired Girl_


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Masada -- First Live Performance?
Date: 10 Mar 2002 02:21:45 EST

Has anyone heard about Koch releasing a disc called Masada: First Live 1993?
CDUNIVERSE.com has it listed as being released on 4/23 -- the same day as the
live Naked City disc.

http://www.cduniverse.com/productinfo.asp?pid=3070497&cart=118628234&
style=music

Tom

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: James Hale <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Masada -- First Live Performance?
Date: 10 Mar 2002 09:42:48 -0500


--------------306F9AA7E5E59C98E6DE7B50
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Dave Douglas told me a couple of years ago that JZ was going to put this out.
Dave is sight-reading all his parts on it.

James Hale

[e-mail] wrote:

> Has anyone heard about Koch releasing a disc called Masada: First Live 1993?
> CDUNIVERSE.com has it listed as being released on 4/23 -- the same day as the
> live Naked City disc.
>
> http://www.cduniverse.com/productinfo.asp?pid=3070497&cart=118628234&
> style=music
>
> Tom
>
> -

--------------306F9AA7E5E59C98E6DE7B50
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
Dave Douglas told me a couple of years ago that JZ was going to put this
out.
<br>Dave is sight-reading all his parts on it.
<p>James Hale
<p>[e-mail] wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>Has anyone heard about Koch releasing a disc called
Masada: First Live 1993?
<br>CDUNIVERSE.com has it listed as being released on 4/23 -- the same
day as the
<br>live Naked City disc.
<p><a href="http://www.cduniverse.com/productinfo.asp?pid=3070497&cart=118628234&">http://www.cduniverse.com/productinfo.asp?pid=3070497&cart=118628234&</a>
<br>style=music
<p>Tom
<p>-</blockquote>
</html>

--------------306F9AA7E5E59C98E6DE7B50--


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Mathieu =?iso-8859-1?Q?B=E9langer?=  <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: A bit more cello
Date: 10 Mar 2002 12:27:36 -0500

Hello,

>I just have one more question: Fred Lonberg-Holm?
>(...)
>So what gives. Any further recommendations for this guy?

I can only comment on what I've heard, but I guess it's better than nothing.=
=2E.

If you liked what you've heard with the Boxhead Ensemble, then you
probably will want to pick up the other Boxhead's album he was
involved in. He played on their last three releases: _The Last Place
To Go_, _Niagara Falls EP_ and _Two Brothers_. The first one is from
the European tour for the _Dutch Harbor_, the second from the
American tour. My favorite is the ep followed by the recent _Two
Brothers_.

In the melodic/quiet/etc. genre, Terminal 4 and Pillow have some nice
moments. Terminal 4 is FLH with Ben Vida on guitar, Jeb Bishop on
guitar and trombone and Josh Abrams on bass. They have one album on
Truck Stop Media. I was not so impressed at first, but I played it
again yesterday and it's quite nice actually. There is one song with
a singer which doesn't fit so well with the rest in my opinion, but
the song itself and the rest is very good.

Pillow is Micheal Colligan on reeds and dry ice, Liz Payne on bass,
Ben Vida on guitar and FLH. They have three albums. The first one is
on Boxmedia, but I doubt it's still available. It was a 250
edition... It's quite good though and could be my favorite of the
three. The second is called _Fields on Water_ and was an lp-only
release. It's good (actually played it this week and better than the
impression I had from the previous times), but probably not enough to
buy a turntable just to play it. The third one was released in
September if I remember correctly and is called Three Henries. It's
better than the second one and it explores similar paths.

Both of these projects have similarities with Town & Country, which
is not so surprising considering Josh Abrams, Ben Vida and Liz Payne
play in Town & Country. You probably will want to look for their
albums even though FLH is not involved in this band. _It All Has To
Do With It_ is definitely my favorite. The first one is good too but
I can't say the _Decoration Day_ ep impressed me. I haven't heard the
recent _C'mon_, but they apparently explore more repetition.

There are also a few "non-melodic" improv albums: _Claque_ with Axel
D=F6rner and Michael Zerang, _First Meeting_ with Jaap Blonk and
Micheal Zerang, _35 Grapes (19 Shown)_ with Michael Zerang, _Site
Specific_ with various guitarists and a solo album called _Personal
Scratch_. I haven't listened to most of these recently, but I
remember enjoying the duo album with Michael Zerang and _Site
Specific_. Not that the others are bad though...

If you don't already own them, both albums by the Peter Br=F6tzmann
Chicago Tentet on Okka are essential: the eponymous 3 cd set and
_Stone/Water_. FLH is sometimes a little in the back in the mix, but
the music is great. He was also involved in Cornelius Cardew's
_Treatise_ with Guillermo Gregorio, Carrie Biolo, Jim O'Rourke, Jim
Baker, piano & synthesizer and Art Lange.

If you liked what you've heard with the Flying Luttenbachers, there
is an album with Walter Weasael and Jim O'Rourke on Grob. Heavy
improv!

There is also a cd with John Corbett and another guy whose name I
forget at the moment and another one called _I'm Sick About My Hat_
by John Corbett and Heavy Friends where JC is joined by some
"friends/musicians". Nothing essential here in my opinion.

There is an interview with Lonberg-Holm that I have just found where
he discuss some of his projects:
http://www.croutonmusic.com/zine_lonberg.html A search on Google for
=46red Lonberg-Holm could probably be helpful too.

I'm sure I'm forgetting some, but I guess it's a start...

Hope it helps,

Mathieu

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Masada -- First Live Performance?
Date: 10 Mar 2002 10:00:19 -0800

> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

--MS_Mac_OE_3098599219_189001_MIME_Part
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

on 3/10/02 6:42 AM, James Hale at [e-mail] wrote:

Dave Douglas told me a couple of years ago that JZ was going to put this
out.
Dave is sight-reading all his parts on it.

James Hale


Yeah, but Dave, Joey, and Greg are all spotless readers.  Not a deterrent.

skip h


--MS_Mac_OE_3098599219_189001_MIME_Part
Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Re: Masada -- First Live Performance?</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
on 3/10/02 6:42 AM, James Hale at [e-mail] wrote:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE>Dave Douglas told me a couple of years ago that JZ was going to=
 put this out. <BR>
Dave is sight-reading all his parts on it. <BR>
<BR>
James Hale <BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
Yeah, but Dave, Joey, and Greg are all spotless readers.  Not a deterr=
ent.<BR>
<BR>
skip h<BR>
</BODY>
</HTML>


--MS_Mac_OE_3098599219_189001_MIME_Part--


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: James Hale <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Masada -- First Live Performance?
Date: 10 Mar 2002 14:23:37 -0500


--------------8F57811CE5756BC675B49A00
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Absolutely, but even Dave was interested in hearing what he sounded like
negotiating the early Masada book on their first date.

James

skip Heller wrote:

> on 3/10/02 6:42 AM, James Hale at [e-mail] wrote:
>
>
>      Dave Douglas told me a couple of years ago that JZ was going
>      to put this out.
>      Dave is sight-reading all his parts on it.
>
>      James Hale
>
>
>
> Yeah, but Dave, Joey, and Greg are all spotless readers.  Not a
> deterrent.
>
> skip h

--------------8F57811CE5756BC675B49A00
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
Absolutely, but even Dave was interested in hearing what he sounded like
negotiating the early Masada book on their first date.
<p>James
<p>skip Heller wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>on 3/10/02 6:42 AM, James Hale at [e-mail]
wrote:
<br>
<blockquote>Dave Douglas told me a couple of years ago that JZ was going
to put this out.
<br>Dave is sight-reading all his parts on it.
<p>James Hale
<br> </blockquote>

<p><br>Yeah, but Dave, Joey, and Greg are all spotless readers.  Not
a deterrent.
<p>skip h</blockquote>
</html>

--------------8F57811CE5756BC675B49A00--


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jonas Leddington <[e-mail]>
Subject: Zorn's Rituals
Date: 10 Mar 2002 15:11:11 -0500

Hi - Zorn's Rituals received its US premier last night (see below).  I
understand it has been performed elsewhere (Japan, more?) and that it may
have been recorded.  Has anyone heard it?  I found it convoluted and
repetitive, and am eager for other views.  His other compositions --
including such ones as Memento Mori, for instance -- I've found much more
inriguing, inviting and whole.  (Obviously, I disagree with Lubman's
characterizations below, but could be convinced to re-approach the piece.)

Rgds,
Jonas

AMERICAN PREMIERE OF ZORN'S 'RITUALS' PRESENTED BY
EASTMAN'S MUSICA NOVA AT COOPER UNION

New York, NY - "It's as multi-faceted as the composer himself," is how
Bradley Lubman, music director of the Eastman School of Music's Musica Nova,
describes John Zorn's Rituals, a 30' work being given its American premiere
by that ensemble in The Great Hall at Cooper Union (East 7th Street at 3rd
Avenue) on Saturday, March 9, at 7:30 p.m.

Lubman has been studying the score to this mammoth 1998 work for singer plus
10 instruments, and calls the piece "an amazing adventure," with "virtuoso
writing and original sound textures that make the piece absolutely
refreshing."




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jim Flannery <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: A bit more cello
Date: 10 Mar 2002 13:50:26 -0800

Mathieu B=E9langer wrote:

>=20
> I'm sure I'm forgetting some, but I guess it's a start...

To cover a different base, tho I'm sure not exhausting the discography,=20
there's _Theory of Motion_ from 1990 (Curious/Pogus) which includes=20
Braxton and Winant, among others, often in more of an=20
academic/composition vein, with some very nice solo tracks folded in the=20
middle.

Oh, and on yet another planet, FLH also plays on Zeek Sheck's _Good Luck=20
Suckers_.

--=20
Jim Flannery                                           [e-mail]

         "Unexamined assumptions and axioms can be collected the
          way one might collect stamps."
                                                 -- James Elkins
np: Music Emporium, _s/t_
nr: Philip K. Dick, _The Dark Haired Girl_


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Steve Smith" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Zorn's Rituals
Date: 10 Mar 2002 17:34:21 -0500

I found Rituals to be another pretty damned exceptional recent Zorn concert
music piece - and in general, I find that his concert pieces are becoming
more and more convincing and less derivative.

The piece, in five movements stretching out over 30 minutes, was scored for
soprano vocalist, violin, cello, bass, flute (doubling piccolo), clarinet
(doubling E-flat and bass clarinets), oboe, bassoon (doubling
contrabassoon), trombone, piano (doubling organ and harpsichord) and two
percussionists (with massive resources to marshall, from tuned percussion to
gongs, wind chimes, water gong, two wind machines, two bull roarers, bird
calls and even more surprising elements). The Eastman students played with
remarkable skill and poise, meeting Zorn's outrageous demands with more
success than quite a number of "professional" performances I've heard.

The essentially episodic nature of Zorn's compositional voice continues to
come through, but I refuse to hear this as a liability - it's just who he
is. But I must admit, I did wonder if there was an unstated "program" of
some sort behind the piece. Given the title and the fact that at one point
during the final movement, one of the percussionists was called upon to
shovel dirt in a wooden box, you couldn't help but wonder who was being
buried, and why. Anyway, it certainly made for a welcome and engaging
theatricality. As Jonas noted, there was an element of repetition of certain
elements across the movements, but I thought this added a certain unity and
a conceptual through-line to the relatively large-scale work.

I'll just add to this that as a percussionist by training, I've noted that
many composers don't seem to have an intuitive grip on writing effectively
for percussion: for instance, Varese and Rouse certainly do; Carter, aside
from the solo timpani pieces, generally doesn't. I've said it before and
I'll say it again - Zorn does, absolutely. He calls for extremely unorthodox
effects - at one point, the two percussionists were both whirling ball
bearings in metal mixing bowls of different sizes at different speeds; at
another, one percussionist removed the canvas cover from his wind machine
and rotated its handle while sticking a bit of 2x4 wooden plank between the
barrel's ribs. Zorn seems to be able to realize and score virtually any
sonority he can imagine; wedded to that imagination, the results can be
impressive indeed.

(As visiting Texan Z-lister Brent Fariss and I returned to the empty
auditorium to retrieve something we'd left behind, I saw the two
percussionists carrying the sandbox out. I offered them a personal round of
applause and some witty and original observation like, "Oh-My-Gawd." One of
them replied, "Dude, that's what WE'VE been saying all week...")

This is not to sell anyone else's efforts short. In particular, the
woodwinds, violinist and pianist were especially distinguished. From a
nostalgic point of view, it was a pleasant surprise to hear an electronic
organ making "that sound" we all know so well from the Elektra recordings
like 'Big Gundown' and 'Spillane.' The soprano had little more to sing than
raltively conservative wordless vocalises - no Shelley Hirsch glossolalia or
Diamanda shrieks - but these she handled quite well. The cellist played
well, breaking a string at one point and recovering nicely; the trombonist
also seemed to handle Zorn's demands, and if I felt a certain shortcoming in
that department, it's most likely only in comparison to the very individual
and agressive style of the Downtown trombonists of Zorn's earlier
recordings, like Lewis and Staley - which is a hell of a lot to expect a
student to live up to. Only the bassist seemed curiously detatched.

The audience was on the smallish side, filling less than half of the hall;
how much this had to do with a new concert series and limited publicity and
how much it had to do with a pairing with the frequently arid serialism of
Charles Wuorinen is up for debate. To be honest, I enjoyed parts of the two
Wuorinen pieces, but ultimately they weren't anything for I could work up a
great deal of general enthusiasm, though Wuorinen has in fact written some
damned engaging music in his day, including the wonderful Percussion
Symphony. (Interesting to note that Tzadik is about to issue a Wuorinen
disc, including a new remastering of his Pulitzer-winning electronic piece
'Time's Encomium.')

But the crowd was populated by a number of New York new-music concert scene
movers and shakers (including programmers from the Miller Theatre, the
Chamber Music Society of Lincoln Center and the Lincoln Center Festival) and
fellow composers and artists (Ikue Mori, Annie Gosfield, Fred Sherry and
Fred Ho), which made it feel a bit more like the significant event it was.
Avant-minded senior citizens mixed with students with jeans and backpacks.
The Times, alas, couldn't be bothered to send out a reviewer, to the concert
promoter's bitter chagrin, but a newly shorn Zorn seemed quite happy with
the performance.

I don't mean to rebut anything that Jonas stated - certainly music remains
among the more subjective artistic experiences - but alongside the string
quartets and the violin concerto Contes des Fees, I actually thought Rituals
was one of Zorn's more fully realized and engaging concert pieces, and one
I'd be happy to hear again. There was no sign of any recording activity in
the hall (Bruce Gallanter aside, perhaps), but I for one would welcome it.

Steve Smith
[e-mail]
NP - Derek Bailey and Jamie Muir, "I soon learned to know this flower
better," 'Dart Drug' (Incus)


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Masada -- First Live Performance?
Date: 10 Mar 2002 17:22:16 -0800

on 3/10/02 4:04 PM, Banjology at [e-mail] wrote:

>
>
>> Yeah, but Dave, Joey, and Greg are all spotless
>> readers.  Not a deterrent.
>>
>> skip h
>
> Joey Baron doesn't read music
>
That's completely incorrect.  I don't know who told you that.

skip h



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "nors5379" <[e-mail]>
Subject: re: zorn's ritual
Date: 11 Mar 2002 02:13:40 GMT

not to burst your bubble but the premier performance of
'ritual' was not last night at cooper union, but actually
thursday night at eastman school of music where lubman
teaches. a friend who goes there, attended and said it was
an amazing performance. another friend who is on this list
may care to comment because he was in attendance as well
(andy? haha)
-darryl.
Darryl Norsen
db.etree.org/shortround
[e-mail]
[e-mail]

if I were an easy bright boy I think
I would say something like, "cleaning
the fingernails with a dirty fingernail
file is a form of masterbation." and I
would probably win a scholarship, a grant,
the king's sword on shoulder and 14 hot
pieces of ass. -charles bukowski


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Michael=20Gillham?= <[e-mail]>
Subject: MARK BEYER ("Spy Vs. Spy" artist)
Date: 11 Mar 2002 04:18:57 +0000 (GMT)


Does anyone here know how/where to contact Mark Beyer
(artist of "Spy Vs. Spy" cover)?

If so, please contact me OFFLIST at:
[e-mail]

__________________________________________________
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from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Efr=E9n_del_Valle?= <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Fwd: Re: Patton's bad taste?!
Date: 10 Mar 2002 19:05:32 +0100

HI,

As the story was told to me, the supposed Patton collaboration had just been
a single performance with a chorus of kids with DS.  This doesn't obviously
correspond to what the project actually is.

As far as giving kids with DS the chance to get into a studio, it's Ok with
me, of course. But if we are objective, it's obvious (again) that their
musical skills are limited as a results of their own disease.  If this
accepted, then  the real musical interest there is potentially arguable. And
therefore, why would someone purchase a record like that? Curiosity? I hope
it's only that.

And yes, you could ask again, what with the Special Olympics? I've never
seen or attended SO, but I know that some people take it seriously and
understand it as an essential support for handicapped people, while others
(certainly CRUEL) find in entertaining (to avoid "funny").

I'll check that Cd. Maybe I'm wrong and their musical skills are not as
limited as I think. I'm feeling curious (and nothing more).

Greetings,

EfrΘn del Valle
Ground Zero: "Plays Standards"


EfrΘn del Valle wrote:

>
> And with regard to what Jim Flannery said, it's
> obviously not the same to release a Fred Frith album
> than one featuring kids with DS, unless the latter is
> published with a clear purpose. Let's not be na∩ve.

Really, when I said "HOW is it different", I wasn't looking for an
adverb like OBVIOUSLY, I was looking for an explanation of *what that
obvious difference IS*, because I think the answer might be errrr
"interesting". Let's neither of us be "na∩ve".

--
Jim Flannery                                           [e-mail]

         "Unexamined assumptions and axioms can be collected the
          way one might collect stamps."
                                                 -- James Elkins
np: Stooges, _Funhouse Sessions_, Disc Six
nr: Philip K. Dick, _The Dark Haired Girl_


-


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Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Theo Klaase <[e-mail]>
Subject: Melvins
Date: 11 Mar 2002 03:55:37 -0800 (PST)

   Anyone on this list like the Melvins?

__________________________________________________
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Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email!
http://mail.yahoo.com/

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Adam Rock" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Die Like A Dog Quartet- "Aoyama Crows"
Date: 12 Mar 2002 00:30:54 +1100

Has anyone heard Die Like a Dog Quartet - "Aoyama Crows"? Any comments?
Curiously it is currently "Record of the Week" at 78 Records in Perth,
Australia.

Regards,

Adam



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Andreas Dietz" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: A bit more cello
Date: 11 Mar 2002 15:06:22 +0100

>Mathieu BΘlanger wrote:
>
>>
>>I'm sure I'm forgetting some, but I guess it's a start...

here are some more records with participation of FLH (to make the selection
not too easy)

Misha Mengelberg - Two Days In Chicago (hatOLOGY)
Cobra - Live At The Knit (Knit)
God Is My Co-Pilot - Mir Shlufn Nisht
Jim O'Rourke - Eureka
Gary Lucas - Bad Boys Of The Arctic

and not to forget he┤s doing TAXMAN on Downtown Does Beatles

Andreas

_________________________________________________________________
Testen Sie MSN Messenger fⁿr Ihren Online-Chat mit Freunden:
http://messenger.msn.de


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: A bit more cello
Date: 11 Mar 2002 14:14:06 -0000


Let's not forget FLH's participation in Anthony Coleman's great =
Selfhater's project.



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Patton's bad taste?!
Date: 11 Mar 2002 11:35:43 EST


In a message dated 03.11.02 05.42.23, [e-mail] writes:

>But if we are objective, it's obvious (again) that their
>musical skills are limited as a results of their own disease.  If this
>accepted, then  the real musical interest there is potentially arguable.
>And therefore, why would someone purchase a record like that? Curiosity? I
>hope it's only that.

why would a person's musical ability be hampered because of a condition?  and
could we please stop calling down's syndrome a disease?  diseases are
communicable, transmittable - down's syndrome is neither.

why couldn't someone purchase this record of which we speak for its pure
musical value?  while it might be different from the music that "normal"
people would create, why is its musicality worth any less?

>And yes, you could ask again, what with the Special Olympics? I've never
>seen or attended SO, but I know that some people take it seriously and
>understand it as an essential support for handicapped people, while others
>(certainly CRUEL) find in entertaining (to avoid "funny").

i don't think too many people find the special olympics "funny".  let's not
avoid "funny", either, because i know i for one find the "real" olympics to
be entertaining.  why is it cruel to find something entertaining?  i know,
efren, that you mean entertaining as in ignorant people saying "gee it sure
is 'entertaining' to watch 'retards' run around a track" - but i think that
you underestimate the capacity of the disabled to take on challenges (and
rise to said challenges) just as any person with no presupposed physical or
mental limitations would do.

has been sitting back listening but just can't do it anymore since ignorance
breeds intolerance,
  k8.




---
[.n0thing.is.what.is.sAid.]
k a t e  p e t e r s o n
c o m p o s e r / p e r f o r m e r

http://www.geocities.com/uforbk8/kate.html
http://www.icefoundation.org (roundtable)

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Patton's bad taste?!
Date: 11 Mar 2002 12:29:07 -0600

On Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 11:35:43AM -0500, [e-mail] wrote:
>
> In a message dated 03.11.02 05.42.23, [e-mail] writes:
>
> >But if we are objective, it's obvious (again) that their
> >musical skills are limited as a results of their own disease.  If this
> >accepted, then  the real musical interest there is potentially arguable.
> >And therefore, why would someone purchase a record like that? Curiosity? I
> >hope it's only that.
>
> why would a person's musical ability be hampered because of a condition?  and
> could we please stop calling down's syndrome a disease?  diseases are
> communicable, transmittable - down's syndrome is neither.

A telling (though not definitive) question would be whether someone
hearing the record without knowing its source or context would find it
interesting.

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dave Trenkel <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Melvins
Date: 11 Mar 2002 10:00:08 -0800

At 3:55 AM -0800 3/11/2002, Theo Klaase wrote:
>    Anyone on this list like the Melvins?

I do! First time I saw 'em was a life-changing experience.

--
Dave Trenkel                                New and Improv Music
http://www.newandimprov.com         [e-mail]


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Michael=20Gillham?= <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Melvins
Date: 11 Mar 2002 17:59:42 +0000 (GMT)


>Anyone on this list like the Melvins?

OF COURSE.




__________________________________________________
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Everything you'll ever need on one web page
from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Efr=E9n=20del=20Valle?= <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fwd: Re: Patton's bad taste?!
Date: 11 Mar 2002 19:48:39 +0100 (CET)

Hi K8 and everyone,
>
> why would a person's musical ability be hampered
> because of a condition?  and
> could we please stop calling down's syndrome a
> disease?  diseases are
> communicable, transmittable - down's syndrome is
> neither.

People's abilities are definitively hampered because
of a condition, Kate.
As an example, I'm color blind and I love painting
(mostly drawing) and it does jeopardize my practice in
many ways- to the point that i felt very limited and
put it aside for a while. Many people were interested
in seeing my (colored) paintings, because they found
them funny, mainly since the sky is not usually lilac,
at least in my country!
My cousin is deaf, and she loves singing. It's
paradoxical too. And her singing is a real nightmare,
but we'll never tell her to shut up, which doesn't
mean that we are enjoying it. One thing is to let
those people grow up in what they love and support
them to the max but putting them at the same level as
those who CAN develop their skills in a """"normal""""
way is quite another.
I'm not sure if I'm making myself clear and maybe
sounding a bit narrow-minded but maybe some of you
grasp what i'm trying to express (i hope so).

I really think that these activities performed by
handicapped people are looked at by some in a cruel
way, that's what I mean. And Patton backed up by a
chorus of SD kids appeared to me as something
suspicious.


> why couldn't someone purchase this record of which
> we speak for its pure
> musical value?  while it might be different from the
> music that "normal"
> people would create, why is its musicality worth any
> less?

I never said it's musicality is not worth our
attention, but a color-blinded person will never
reflect reality on canvas in a virtuosistic way, to
keep with my own example (touching SD kids is getting
too dangerous). Rembrandt wasn't colour-blind, you
know?


> be entertaining.  why is it cruel to find something
> entertaining?  i know,
> efren, that you mean entertaining as in ignorant
> people saying "gee it sure
> is 'entertaining' to watch 'retards' run around a
> track" - but i think that
> you underestimate the capacity of the disabled to
> take on challenges (and
> rise to said challenges) just as any person with no
> presupposed physical or
> mental limitations would do.

I don't underestimate their capacity to take on
challenges but their ability to achieve some of them
as a results OF THEIR OWN HANDICAPS is limited.
>
> has been sitting back listening but just can't do it
> anymore since ignorance
> breeds intolerance,
>   k8.

Oh, thank you.

EfrΘn del VAlle



> ---
> [.n0thing.is.what.is.sAid.]
> k a t e  p e t e r s o n
> c o m p o s e r / p e r f o r m e r
>
> http://www.geocities.com/uforbk8/kate.html
> http://www.icefoundation.org (roundtable)
>
> -
>


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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Patton's bad taste?!
Date: 11 Mar 2002 13:52:05 EST


--part1_158.a4d8f19.29be56d5_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 3/11/02 12:49:07 PM Central Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:


> I never said it's musicality is not worth our
> attention, but a color-blinded person will never
> reflect reality on canvas in a virtuosistic way, to
> keep with my own example (touching SD kids is getting
> too dangerous). Rembrandt wasn't colour-blind, you
> know?

i respectfully disagree.  i think that colour blind persons can definitely
reflect reality on canvas in a virtuosic way.  just their (YOUR) own
virtuosic way.  i would love to see some of your paintings!  and not for the
humour value, either.  seriously.

love,
  k8.

and efren, the ignorance comment wasn't directed at you, it was a general
remark.






--part1_158.a4d8f19.29be56d5_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 3/11/02 12:49:07 PM Central Standard Time, [e-mail] writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">I never said it's musicality is not worth our<BR>
attention, but a color-blinded person will never<BR>
reflect reality on canvas in a virtuosistic way, to<BR>
keep with my own example (touching SD kids is getting<BR>
too dangerous). Rembrandt wasn't colour-blind, you<BR>
know?</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">i respectfully disagree.  i think that colour blind persons can definitely reflect reality on canvas in a virtuosic way.  just their (YOUR) own virtuosic way.  i would love to see some of your paintings!  and not for the humour value, either.  seriously.<BR>
<BR>
love,<BR>
  k8.<BR>
<BR>
and efren, the ignorance comment wasn't directed at you, it was a general remark.<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
--part1_158.a4d8f19.29be56d5_boundary--

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Thierry Raguin <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Melvins
Date: 11 Mar 2002 20:02:44 +0100

Theo Klaase wrote:

>   Anyone on this list like the Melvins?
>
YES!!! And I'm really looking forward to the Fant⌠mas/Melvins Big Band
live (release date: April, 2nd)!!!

- TR


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Patton's bad taste?!
Date: 11 Mar 2002 11:06:06 -0800


On Mon, 11 Mar 2002 13:52:05 EST  [e-mail] wrote:
>
> i respectfully disagree.  i think that colour blind persons can definitely
> reflect reality on canvas in a virtuosic way.  just their (YOUR) own
> virtuosic way.  i would love to see some of your paintings!  and not for the

Not all personal expression is worth our time. In fact very few people have
something to say that is worth our time.

I have nothing against personal expression and its value, but this list
is about people who do more than just feeling good about themselves. For
group therapy, there are other mailing lists.

    Patrice.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Efr=E9n=20del=20Valle?= <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fwd: Re: Patton's bad taste?!
Date: 11 Mar 2002 21:56:22 +0100 (CET)

As far as I'm concerned, I was just trying to clarify
what I meant with regard to the S.D subject, which is
quite tricky. That's why I've used personal examples
so there's no room for misunderstandings. I was not
intending anyone to care for my "problems".
Fortunately, I don't need group therapies at this
point.


> Not all personal expression is worth our time. In
> fact very few people have
> something to say that is worth our time.
>
> I have nothing against personal expression and its
> value, but this list
> is about people who do more than just feeling good
> about themselves. For
> group therapy, there are other mailing lists.
>
>     Patrice.
>

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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Patton's bad taste?!
Date: 11 Mar 2002 16:37:48 -0600

On Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 07:48:39PM +0100, Efr=E9n del Valle wrote:
=20
> I never said it's musicality is not worth our
> attention, but a color-blinded person will never
> reflect reality on canvas in a virtuosistic way, to
> keep with my own example (touching SD kids is getting
> too dangerous). Rembrandt wasn't colour-blind, you
> know?

But reflecting reality on canvas is hardly necessary, or even
particularly relevant. What reality, in this sense, did Mark Rothko's
work reflect?

--=20
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: mwoodwor <[e-mail]>
Subject: Ellery and the World
Date: 11 Mar 2002 17:48:32 -0400

Hey I just remembered now (not sure why) that someone about one month ago
on the list said they had a live recording of Ellery Eskelin/William Parker.
I'd be very interested in hearing this, if whoever has this would be at all
interested in trading this for something (I've got a number of things you may
be potentially interested in) get ahold of me off-list.

Also, chiming in with the world music rec.'s - I HIGHLY rec. the 'Music of
Indonesia' series on Smithsonian Folkways label - truly amazing stuff,

Mike.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: good, affordable turntable
Date: 11 Mar 2002 13:53:52 -0800

I replaced a turntable about two years ago, and did some research. I ended
up with something called a Music Hall, which needle and cartidge installed,
for about $320. It was well reviewed -- some raved that it was easily
better than anything else in its price range and some said it was as good
or better than tables two or three times the price. It is very basic.
On/off switch. No auto return when the record's over. I'm very pleased with
it, and I spin vinyl a few times a week at least (at 45 y.o., a good chunk
of my collection is pre-CD).... Originally, I believe, the table was put
together by a high-end distributor who had access to all the parts and
wondered why a better table was available for under $500. There's a place
for a name plate on it, but there is no name plate, so maybe he was
thinking of selling them to somebody who wanted to put their own name on
them, I dunno. I think he's come out with a second table too, also under
the name Music Hall.... www.musichallaudio.com ... yes, he's come out with
a second and preparing for a third. i believe i have something similar to
the 2.1....

Martin

np. silva/jordan/parker "emancipation"


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Patton's bad taste?!
Date: 11 Mar 2002 14:04:27 -0800

on 3/11/02 2:37 PM, Joseph Zitt at [e-mail] wrote:

> But reflecting reality on canvas is hardly necessary, or even
> particularly relevant.

If that's what you're compelled to do, it's completely neccessary, and if
people want to view stuff like that, it's completely relevant.  Neccessity
is the province of any person who feels like they have to make a thing,
whether it's a poem, a painting, a song, whatever.  And relevant is left up
to the people who encounter these things.  It's not my job or yours to sit
here and decree what is neccessary, relevant or whatever.  Only to say what
we like or don't and why.

skip h


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Patton's bad taste?!
Date: 11 Mar 2002 16:57:25 -0600

On Mon, Mar 11, 2002 at 02:04:27PM -0800, skip Heller wrote:
> on 3/11/02 2:37 PM, Joseph Zitt at [e-mail] wrote:
>
> > But reflecting reality on canvas is hardly necessary, or even
> > particularly relevant.
>
> If that's what you're compelled to do, it's completely neccessary, and if
> people want to view stuff like that, it's completely relevant.  Neccessity
> is the province of any person who feels like they have to make a thing,
> whether it's a poem, a painting, a song, whatever.  And relevant is left up
> to the people who encounter these things.  It's not my job or yours to sit
> here and decree what is neccessary, relevant or whatever.  Only to say what
> we like or don't and why.

Exactly the point I'm making (when my comment is read in context).

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "john schuller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Melvins / Eyvind Kang
Date: 11 Mar 2002 14:17:23 -0800

In my opinion the Melvins are the greatest band that has ever existed. Ever.
Period. No Question about it. The world is Miles Davis, Frank Zappa and
Melvins. The three big ones in my book.

John Schuller
www.johnschuller.da.ru

Also if anyone on the list lives in/near Seattle. Eyvind Kang is playing at
the Rainbow on NE 45th st.

_________________________________________________________________
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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "john schuller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Melvins / Eyvind Kang
Date: 11 Mar 2002 14:17:42 -0800

In my opinion the Melvins are the greatest band that has ever existed. Ever.
Period. No Question about it. The world is Miles Davis, Frank Zappa and
Melvins. The three big ones in my book.

John Schuller
www.johnschuller.da.ru

Also if anyone on the list lives in/near Seattle. Eyvind Kang is playing at
the Rainbow on NE 45th st. TONIGHT.

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Rhys Chatham 3xCD set finally announced!
Date: 11 Mar 2002 14:24:23 -0800


    The last issue of MAGNET has the following exciting ad:


*** - AN ANGEL MOVES TOO FAST TO SEE: SELECTED WORKS 1971-1989: Rhys Chatham

    1/ An Angel Moves Too Fast To See
    2/ Guitar Trio
    3/ Panic On MacDougal Street
    4/ ...

    2002 - Table of the Elements (USA), TDE-CD-57 (3xCD)

  Note: not released yet.


As far as release date, T.O.T.E. is careful and only gives: 2002.

    Rhys Chatham might be one of the most under-documented and overlooked
artists of the NY scene. With practically just a few records (the fingers of
one hand being enough to count them), mainly out of print (it would have been
too easy), this set is finally bringing him justice.

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: duncan youngerman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Melvins / Eyvind Kang
Date: 11 Mar 2002 23:58:22 +0100


john schuller a =E9crit :

> In my opinion the Melvins are the greatest band that has ever existed=2E E=
ver=2E
> Period=2E No Question about it=2E

NO WAY you're gonna make a statement like that without giving us (those who
don't know) SOME information about WHO the FUCK they ARE and WHAT kind of SH=
IT
they DO=2E=2E?$!*!%*+

D=2E

>
>


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "john schuller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Melvins / Eyvind Kang
Date: 11 Mar 2002 15:14:52 -0800

The Melvins are King Buzzo, Dale Crover and a revolving cast of bass players
(Currently Kevin Rutmanis). The have existed since 1983 or 1984. Pretty much
Guitars, Bass, Drums and Vocals. Their songs are heavy, creepy, funny, ugly,
sad, smart, dumb, big, small. Their lyrics go like this -

"Los ticka toe rest. Might likea sender doe ree. Your make a doll a ray day
sender bright like a penelty.
Exi-tease my ray day member half lost a beat away. Purst in like a one way
sender war give a heart like a fay. Cuz I can ford a red eed only street a
wide a ree land. Die-mond make a mid-evil bike a sake a like a ree caste.
Cuz I can ford a red eed only street a wide a ree land. On a ree land. Find
a ree land.
You sink a my swan. Rolly a get a worst in. Maybe minus way far central poor
forty duck a pin.
Milk maid dud bean. Master a load a head. Pill pop a dope a well run general
hash pump a gonna led."

There album covers might either have a two-headed dog or a handicapped
child. They hate their audience and love their audience. They are totally
cynical and serious, totally joking and totally fucking with you. The best I
can do them justice is to recommend you seek out their music.

John Schuller



>From: duncan youngerman <[e-mail]>
>Reply-To: [e-mail]
>To: john schuller <[e-mail]>,
>    "[e-mail]" <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Re: Melvins / Eyvind Kang
>Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 23:58:22 +0100
>
>
>john schuller a Θcrit :
>
> > In my opinion the Melvins are the greatest band that has ever existed.
>Ever.
> > Period. No Question about it.
>
>NO WAY you're gonna make a statement like that without giving us (those who
>don't know) SOME information about WHO the FUCK they ARE and WHAT kind of
>SHIT
>they DO..?$!*!%*+
>
>D.
>
> >
> >
>


_________________________________________________________________
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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Melvins / Eyvind Kang
Date: 11 Mar 2002 18:35:14 EST

In a message dated Mon, 11 Mar 2002  6:00:30 PM Eastern Standard Time, dunca=
n youngerman <[e-mail]> writes:

>=20
> john schuller a =E9crit :
>=20
> > In my opinion the Melvins are the greatest band that has ever existed. E=
ver.
> > Period. No Question about it.
>=20
> NO WAY you're gonna make a statement like that without giving us (those wh=
o
> don't know) SOME information about WHO the FUCK they ARE and WHAT kind of=20=
SHIT
> they DO..?$!*!%*+

They also admit to being influenced by Cardiacs, who in actually, are the gr=
eatest band that's ever existed, period.

And if you want to hear *that* band, hit their website at MP3.com and downlo=
ad their stuff.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: duncan youngerman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Melvins
Date: 12 Mar 2002 01:04:29 +0100



Alright!!...
Thanx,
D.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Efr=E9n=20del=20Valle?= <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fwd: Re: Melvins
Date: 12 Mar 2002 11:47:35 +0100 (CET)

Hi,

I think in late March or early April a live recording
with the Melvins/Fant⌠mas Big Band will be released on
Ipecac. Great news!

Best,

EfrΘn del Valle

>
>
> -
>

_______________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Messenger
Comunicaci≤n instantßnea gratis con tu gente.
http://messenger.yahoo.es

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Brent Fariss" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Zorn's Rituals
Date: 12 Mar 2002 15:03:12

I attended the Rituals premiere with Steve (I'm on vacation in NY coming
from Austin), and have to agree with his views on the piece.  I found it
quite engaging.  I often feel that many of Zorn's recent "classical" works
have shown his influences more than his own ideas.  But recently he seems to
be coming into his own.  His orchestration has always been wonderful, but as
he is moving into larger ensembles his timbral palette is expanding.  I
particularly enjoyed the percussion work (Steve is right in that Zorn KNOWS
percussion), as well as the interaction of the string instruments - the use
of harmonics, the "typical" Zorn violin writing (thrilling to see performed
live), and the use of the detuned string on the contrabass (which blended
well with the percussion, creating a very unusual timbre).

It makes me curious to see what Zorn is going to do next...I hope a
recording of Rituals is released soon.  I think it would be a great addition
to his catalogue.

Brent

>From: "Steve Smith" <[e-mail]>
>Reply-To: <[e-mail]>
>To: "'Jonas Leddington'" <[e-mail]>
>CC: "Zorn-List (E-mail)" <[e-mail]>
>Subject: RE: Zorn's Rituals
>Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 17:34:21 -0500
>
>I found Rituals to be another pretty damned exceptional recent Zorn concert
>music piece - and in general, I find that his concert pieces are becoming
>more and more convincing and less derivative.
>
>The piece, in five movements stretching out over 30 minutes, was scored for
>soprano vocalist, violin, cello, bass, flute (doubling piccolo), clarinet
>(doubling E-flat and bass clarinets), oboe, bassoon (doubling
>contrabassoon), trombone, piano (doubling organ and harpsichord) and two
>percussionists (with massive resources to marshall, from tuned percussion
>to
>gongs, wind chimes, water gong, two wind machines, two bull roarers, bird
>calls and even more surprising elements). The Eastman students played with
>remarkable skill and poise, meeting Zorn's outrageous demands with more
>success than quite a number of "professional" performances I've heard.
>
>The essentially episodic nature of Zorn's compositional voice continues to
>come through, but I refuse to hear this as a liability - it's just who he
>is. But I must admit, I did wonder if there was an unstated "program" of
>some sort behind the piece. Given the title and the fact that at one point
>during the final movement, one of the percussionists was called upon to
>shovel dirt in a wooden box, you couldn't help but wonder who was being
>buried, and why. Anyway, it certainly made for a welcome and engaging
>theatricality. As Jonas noted, there was an element of repetition of
>certain
>elements across the movements, but I thought this added a certain unity and
>a conceptual through-line to the relatively large-scale work.
>
>I'll just add to this that as a percussionist by training, I've noted that
>many composers don't seem to have an intuitive grip on writing effectively
>for percussion: for instance, Varese and Rouse certainly do; Carter, aside
>from the solo timpani pieces, generally doesn't. I've said it before and
>I'll say it again - Zorn does, absolutely. He calls for extremely
>unorthodox
>effects - at one point, the two percussionists were both whirling ball
>bearings in metal mixing bowls of different sizes at different speeds; at
>another, one percussionist removed the canvas cover from his wind machine
>and rotated its handle while sticking a bit of 2x4 wooden plank between the
>barrel's ribs. Zorn seems to be able to realize and score virtually any
>sonority he can imagine; wedded to that imagination, the results can be
>impressive indeed.
>
>(As visiting Texan Z-lister Brent Fariss and I returned to the empty
>auditorium to retrieve something we'd left behind, I saw the two
>percussionists carrying the sandbox out. I offered them a personal round of
>applause and some witty and original observation like, "Oh-My-Gawd." One of
>them replied, "Dude, that's what WE'VE been saying all week...")
>
>This is not to sell anyone else's efforts short. In particular, the
>woodwinds, violinist and pianist were especially distinguished. From a
>nostalgic point of view, it was a pleasant surprise to hear an electronic
>organ making "that sound" we all know so well from the Elektra recordings
>like 'Big Gundown' and 'Spillane.' The soprano had little more to sing than
>raltively conservative wordless vocalises - no Shelley Hirsch glossolalia
>or
>Diamanda shrieks - but these she handled quite well. The cellist played
>well, breaking a string at one point and recovering nicely; the trombonist
>also seemed to handle Zorn's demands, and if I felt a certain shortcoming
>in
>that department, it's most likely only in comparison to the very individual
>and agressive style of the Downtown trombonists of Zorn's earlier
>recordings, like Lewis and Staley - which is a hell of a lot to expect a
>student to live up to. Only the bassist seemed curiously detatched.
>
>The audience was on the smallish side, filling less than half of the hall;
>how much this had to do with a new concert series and limited publicity and
>how much it had to do with a pairing with the frequently arid serialism of
>Charles Wuorinen is up for debate. To be honest, I enjoyed parts of the two
>Wuorinen pieces, but ultimately they weren't anything for I could work up a
>great deal of general enthusiasm, though Wuorinen has in fact written some
>damned engaging music in his day, including the wonderful Percussion
>Symphony. (Interesting to note that Tzadik is about to issue a Wuorinen
>disc, including a new remastering of his Pulitzer-winning electronic piece
>'Time's Encomium.')
>
>But the crowd was populated by a number of New York new-music concert scene
>movers and shakers (including programmers from the Miller Theatre, the
>Chamber Music Society of Lincoln Center and the Lincoln Center Festival)
>and
>fellow composers and artists (Ikue Mori, Annie Gosfield, Fred Sherry and
>Fred Ho), which made it feel a bit more like the significant event it was.
>Avant-minded senior citizens mixed with students with jeans and backpacks.
>The Times, alas, couldn't be bothered to send out a reviewer, to the
>concert
>promoter's bitter chagrin, but a newly shorn Zorn seemed quite happy with
>the performance.
>
>I don't mean to rebut anything that Jonas stated - certainly music remains
>among the more subjective artistic experiences - but alongside the string
>quartets and the violin concerto Contes des Fees, I actually thought
>Rituals
>was one of Zorn's more fully realized and engaging concert pieces, and one
>I'd be happy to hear again. There was no sign of any recording activity in
>the hall (Bruce Gallanter aside, perhaps), but I for one would welcome it.
>
>Steve Smith
>[e-mail]
>NP - Derek Bailey and Jamie Muir, "I soon learned to know this flower
>better," 'Dart Drug' (Incus)
>
>
>-
>


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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Mathieu =?iso-8859-1?Q?B=E9langer?=  <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: A bit more cello
Date: 12 Mar 2002 12:08:59 -0500

Hello,

Again on the Fred Lonberg-Holm subjet, I think this project is kind
of dead, but for some more "rock"-oriented music, there is (was?) In
Zenith with FLH, Jeb Bishop on guitar, bass and trombone and Michael
Zerang on drums.

I know they have one album on Miguel called _Building A Better
Future_. Nothing groundbreaking, but nevertheless enjoyable. I am not
sure how available this is though. I only saw it once and it was when
Pillow played in Montreal over a year and a half ago...

Hope it helps,

Mathieu

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jonas Leddington <[e-mail]>
Subject: An aside: Rothko (was Patton's bad taste?!)
Date: 12 Mar 2002 12:26:47 -0500

Joseph Zitt:

>But reflecting reality on canvas is hardly necessary, or even
>particularly relevant. What reality, in this sense, did Mark Rothko's
>work reflect?

Fascinating to sit with a book of Rothko's paintings and inspect their
progression in clear stages from his early work (primarily detailed
portraits) to his late (the stripes for which he's famous).  One could argue
that Rothko's late works are all portraits.

Cheers.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Samuel Haase" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Melvins
Date: 12 Mar 2002 11:40:57 -0600


well, i know Zorn likes the Melvins.  a friend of mine asked him what metal
he was into, and he listed The Melvins, Napalm Death, and Death.
  i recomended Khanate, a band anyone who liked Leng Tche should definitely
check out.
     -samuel


    Anyone on this list like the Melvins?

__________________________________________________


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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:    [e-mail] (Patrick Carey)
Subject: Non-JZ FS: Miles Davis, Alboth!, Cheesecake
Date: 12 Mar 2002 12:45:25 -0500

A few items of possible interest to Zorn-listees ...

** PRICES ARE US$ POSTAGE PAID ** in North America (more for overseas)
If you don't like a price, make me an OFFER.

$20 -- Alboth! - "Liebefeld" GER CD (PDCD: cdppp112) 1992
       [Brilliant sophomore album from this Swiss quartet.  Produced
       by Kevin Martin (God, Ice, Techno Animal).  Feat. Alex Buess
       (16-17), Werner L=FCdi, and Hans Koch.  Deleted.]

$18 -- Miles Davis - "Agharta" US 2CD (Columbia/Legacy: c2k46799) 1991
       [Recorded live at Osaka Festival Hall, Japan - 2/1/75.  Davis
       with Sonny Fortune, Michael Henderson, Pete Cosey, Al Foster,
       Reggie Lucas & Mtume.  Digitally remastered.  Mint.]

$18 -- Miles Davis - "Pangaea" US 2CD (Columbia/Legacy: c2k46115) 1991
       [Recorded live at Osaka Festival Hall, Japan - 2/1/75.  Davis
       with Sonny Fortune, Michael Henderson, Pete Cosey, Al Foster,
       Reggie Lucas & Mtume.  Digitally remastered.  Mint.]

$10 -- Terminal Cheesecake - "Unhealing Wound" UK etched 7"
       (World Serpent: ws7-001) 1991 [Actside: recorded live at the
       Paradiso in Amsterdam, 2/21/91.  Artside: etching, Augustus
       Blowhound - "Mnxnena Hashassassin in E".  Limited to 1000
       copies.  Out of print.]

-Patrick
[e-mail]







-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: duncan youngerman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: An aside: Rothko (..?*%!)
Date: 12 Mar 2002 18:52:27 +0100



Jonas Leddington a =E9crit :

>
> Fascinating to sit with a book of Rothko's paintings and inspect their
> progression in clear stages from his early work (primarily detailed
> portraits) to his late (the stripes for which he's famous)=2E

Sorry to be a drag, but abstract Rothko is all blurry rectangles and squares=
,
not stripes=2E Perhaps you meant Barnett Newman (his vertical "zips"), Frank
Stella, or Kenneth Nolan=2E=2E=2E?

D=2E

>


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: future Zorn rituals
Date: 12 Mar 2002 13:13:55 EST

I wish that someone would have posted that this performance was happening
before it happened.  I was at Kim's video at the time of the show, just one
block away from where the performance occured.  Reading all these reviews has
been killing me because I could have been there.  Would someone please be
nice enough to post upcoming shows outside of Tonic?  Thank you very much.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jonas Leddington <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: An aside: Rothko (..?*%!)
Date: 12 Mar 2002 13:44:56 -0500

Duncan wrote:

>Sorry to be a drag, but abstract Rothko is all blurry rectangles and
squares,
>not stripes. Perhaps you meant Barnett Newman (his vertical "zips"), =
Frank
>Stella, or Kenneth Nolan...?

Perhaps stripes was a poor description; instead, let's say very large
stripes, or bars, or blocks, or rectangles, or squares.  In any case, I =
did
mean Rothko.

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 12:52 PM




Jonas Leddington a =E9crit :

>
> Fascinating to sit with a book of Rothko's paintings and inspect =
their
> progression in clear stages from his early work (primarily detailed
> portraits) to his late (the stripes for which he's famous).

Sorry to be a drag, but abstract Rothko is all blurry rectangles and
squares,
not stripes. Perhaps you meant Barnett Newman (his vertical "zips"), =
Frank
Stella, or Kenneth Nolan...?

D.

>

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jonas Leddington <[e-mail]>
Subject: Xu Feng (was Zorn's Rituals)
Date: 12 Mar 2002 13:47:58 -0500

Thanks Steve and Brent for your thoughtful comments on Rituals.  It's
interesting to
hear such praise for a piece I maintain was somewhat overwrought, the
movements blending into a morass of sound (however intriguing and unique
those sounds admittedly were). Frustrating I can't push play for another
listen...

As for Zorn knowing drums, I entirely agree.  He recently performed Xu
Feng at the Miller Theatre in New York as a closing tribute to the actress
during a mini-fest of Hong Kong cinema.  While I understand it was
originally recorded as a piece for two guitars, two electronics players, and
two drums, the Miller performance was for six drums.  (Of the six, I recall
only Susie
Ibarra.)

I have not heard the original piece, but the drum performance was
outstanding, at the same time focused and varied, employing multifarious
rhythms and abundant improvisation over a unity just hidden from view, as it
were.  Zorn directed various combinations of all six players, each of whom
assumed a distinct personality.  From where I sat I could see a number of
the cards, which were surprisingly simple: "rhythmic", "fast", "slow",
"quiet" -- and, seeing the cards, it became very clear that the drummers
were working within distinct if broad parameters that must have been laid
out quite carefully before hand (the source of the unity).

Any comments on the recorded Xu Feng would be much appreciated.

Rgds,
Jonas

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Theo Klaase <[e-mail]>
Subject: the Melvins
Date: 12 Mar 2002 11:58:48 -0800 (PST)


Fantomas led me to the Melvins...  After "Stoner
Witch" I have proceeded to buy 7 other albums on my
way to the entire collection....

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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: future Zorn rituals
Date: 12 Mar 2002 15:32:35 -0500

Actually, I posted a notice about the Rituals performance a little
while back, and I'm pretty sure one or two other people also
mentioned it. Sorry you didn't see these. I know the Zornlist is not
New York-centric, but I always try to mention special concerts like
this. In some cases, people coming in from out of town (Brent
Farris, for instance) might have a lucky opportunity  to catch one
of these performances - and of course, the pointers here can
often lead to, shall we say, covert documentation.

Sucks that you were only a block away, though.

Steve Smith
[e-mail]


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: what do people feel about Ponty's KING KONG?
Date: 12 Mar 2002 13:25:09 -0800


    Since this list is quite loaded with Zappa fans, I was wondering if
people could share their opinion on Ponty's KING KONG: PLAYS THE MUSIC OF
FRANK ZAPPA?

    Patrice (who should know by now...).

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: what do people feel about Ponty's KING KONG?
Date: 12 Mar 2002 16:49:34 -0500 (EST)

Patrice :

I have it on LP somewhere. Judging it as jazz music
without thinking of Zappa it's one of of JLP's better
sessions. It's not as good as the disc he made with
George Duke where he was playing the violin like a
tenor saxophone, but it (to mix metaphors) stands head
and shoulders above his later jazz-rock efforts where
he was trying to play his fiddle like an electric
guitar.

I also suppose it's the LP that got JLP his Mothers
gig.

Ken Waxman

--- "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
wrote:
>
>     Since this list is quite loaded with Zappa fans, I
> was wondering if
> people could share their opinion on Ponty's KING
> KONG: PLAYS THE MUSIC OF
> FRANK ZAPPA?
>
>     Patrice (who should know by now...).
>
> -
>


=====
Ken Waxman
[e-mail]
www.jazzword.com - Jazz/improv news, CD reviews and photos

______________________________________________________________________
Find, Connect, Date! http://personals.yahoo.ca

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "s~Z" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: what do people feel about Ponty's KING KONG?
Date: 12 Mar 2002 13:49:08 -0800

Maybe Ponty will show up Thursday:

3/14/02
8:00 PM
Knitting Factory Hollywood

Project/Object w/ Ike Willis & Napoleon Murphy Brock
plus The Grandmothers w/many Mothers alumni

Ike and Napoleon are both Zappa band vets and are not
to be missed. "It's not fair to call Project/Object a Frank Zappa
tribute. The late composer's gargantuan, technically imposing
output doesn't exactly lend itself to facile cover songs by bar-
band hacks. It's more like a repertory for a fine-tuned
philharmonic
with a collective case of Tourette's." -- San Francisco Chronicle



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ben Axelrad" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: An aside: Rothko (was Patton's bad taste?!)
Date: 12 Mar 2002 16:03:39 -0600

This argument has, in fact, been made by Anna Chave (in a book based on her
dissertation?).  Don't have any further details (sorry), I ran across it a
long time ago in my college library, probably avoiding a problem set or
two...

Ben

>From: Jonas Leddington <[e-mail]>
>To: "'[e-mail]'" <[e-mail]>
>Subject: An aside: Rothko (was Patton's bad taste?!)
>Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 12:26:47 -0500
>
>Joseph Zitt:
>
> >But reflecting reality on canvas is hardly necessary, or even
> >particularly relevant. What reality, in this sense, did Mark Rothko's
> >work reflect?
>
>Fascinating to sit with a book of Rothko's paintings and inspect their
>progression in clear stages from his early work (primarily detailed
>portraits) to his late (the stripes for which he's famous).  One could
>argue
>that Rothko's late works are all portraits.
>
>Cheers.



_________________________________________________________________
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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: what do people feel about Ponty's KING KONG?
Date: 12 Mar 2002 14:11:25 -0800

I like it, but it's never been a heavy rotation record for me.  A lot of
that one sounds undercooked to me.

skip h


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Melvins
Date: 12 Mar 2002 22:23:07 +0000


john schuller a =E9crit :

 > In my opinion the Melvins are the greatest band that has ever existed=2E
E=
ver=2E
 > Period=2E No Question about it=2E

NO WAY you're gonna make a statement like that without giving us (those who
don't know) SOME information about WHO the FUCK they ARE and WHAT kind of
SH=
IT
they DO=2E=2E?$!*!%*+

Check out the early Naked City recordings.  Zorn sites them as an influence.



_________________________________________________________________
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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Michael=20Gillham?= <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Melvins
Date: 13 Mar 2002 02:34:20 +0000 (GMT)


This is the 2nd or 3rd time that Melvins have been the
topic of conversation on the Zorn list.

I certainly don't have a problem with it, but I don't
really want to repeat myself reagrding Melvins and
related/similar bands. But, if I have too...

It's old news that Melvins "Lysol" was partly the
inspiration for "Leng Tch'e", etc.

If anyone is interested in hearing Melvins, the best
thing I could say is to start at the start and work
your way through their discography.





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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Steve Smith" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Melvins
Date: 12 Mar 2002 22:18:45 -0500

Funny thing about old news is that it always remains new news to someone,
somewhere. I just learned a few days ago that Debussy and Ravel considered
Grieg a major influence on their piano music. Go figure.

Speaking as an instigator of one of those two or three recent Melvins
threads, I bought seven of their discs over the course of three weeks last
year based on that conversation. I also put the list of Melvins suggestions
from Z-lister Richard Allen* on my Palm Pilot, and continue to use it when
I'm shopping.

Until Mike Rizzi can get the new Zornlist Archive Search Appliance up and
running - at which point we can just all sniff at questions about old news
and imperiously type, "Check the FAQ, maaannnnnn"** - I'm just as happy to
see new folks asking redundant questions and getting redundant answers.

Now, who can tell me something more substantial about the Thrones than just
the fact that "they" are actually Lysol-era Melvins bassist Joe Preston?
That much I've learned, but what's worth hearing? ("They" are opening for
Khanate and Sigh here in early May, in what already portends to be the
alterna-metal show of the year.)

Steve Smith
[e-mail]

* Richard's primer for Melvins beginners, which I've found pretty useful,
was as follows: Houdini, Bullhead, Eggnog, Stoner Witch, Gluey Porch
Treatments, Stag, 10 Songs, the Amphetamine Reptile 2CD collection of
monthly 7"s, Your Choice Live. (Obviously, some of these have been harder to
find than others...) He also added, "Note: Prick and Honky are noise records
a la Colossus of Destiny." Richard, if you're still here, continued thanks.

** I'm not picking on you, Michael. Poking you in the ribs, maybe, but not
picking on you.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Herb Levy <[e-mail]>
Subject: Electro-Acoustic in RealAudio, Mappings for the week beginning
Date: 12 Mar 2002 23:01:54 -0600

Hi y'all,

This week on Mappings
<http://www.antennaradio.com/mappings/show.htm>, you'll hear works
for electronics and instruments by composer/performers Howard
Frederics, Jonathan Harvey, If Bwana, Greg Kelley & Jason Lescalleet,
Thomas Lehn & Gerry Hemingway, Gordon Mumma, Pauline Oliveros, Mark
Trayle & Vinnie Golia, and Stephen Vitiello.

The show went online Tueday morning around 6:00 AM (-0600 GMT) and
will remain online at the above URL for a week. Last week's program
(featuring works by Ingram Marshall) is still available in the
Mappings archive
<http://antennaradio.com/mappings/last_list_notes.htm>, where you can
also find play lists for the program since it began in March 1998.

Hope you tune in to the program.

Bests,

Herb

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Melvins
Date: 13 Mar 2002 00:08:19 -0600

On Tue, Mar 12, 2002 at 10:18:45PM -0500, Steve Smith wrote:
> Funny thing about old news is that it always remains new news to someone,
> somewhere. I just learned a few days ago that Debussy and Ravel considered
> Grieg a major influence on their piano music. Go figure.

I recall hearing that John Cage was a heavy Grieg fan when quite young
and at one point contemplating devoting his life to Grieg's music.

Which leads to some sort of musicological Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon.

BTW, you get all sorts of interesting results when you mistype "Edvard
Grief" into Google.

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Zorn List Digest V3 #815
Date: 13 Mar 2002 08:31:11 +0100




> well, i know Zorn likes the Melvins.  a friend of mine asked him what metal
> he was into, and he listed The Melvins, Napalm Death, and Death.

Aha, Zorn likes them, so they *must* be good, right? And the other two metal
bands he likes must probably also be the absolute bomb, then?

The Melvins are but one (but, admittedly, a very good one), in a string of
bands that have sport a very thick, droney sound. Others are Earth, Isis
(now on Mike Patton's Ipecac), SunO))), and the Japanese bands Corrupted and Boris
(I bet you Zorn is totally into Corrupted).

We've had this metal discussion before, and it must be repeated that there are
tons of good metal records coming out, some even ground-breaking, some even more
avant-garde than the self-declared avant-garde; a lot more than The Wire would dare to
admit.

Check out:

Mortician "Domain of Death"
    NY gore core, super-fast drumming, intros from all kinds of horror movies, totally
    excellent; they will have a new album later this year with live drums for the first
    time.
Morbid Angel "Formulas Fatal to the Flesh"
    Stunning guitar extravaganza from Trey Azagthoth, who would be hailed as an
    avant-garde guitar genius by The Wire if only he didn't play metal.
Nile "Black Seeds of Vengeance"
    Probably the best death metal in recent years; super-complex songs with hardly
    any room to breathe, everything at break-neck speed, multi-layered, fascinating.
    They'll also have a new album out this year.
Burnt by the Sun "Soundtrack to the Personal Revolution"
    I caught their drummer live with Melt-Banana (so there's another tie-in for the
    Zorn afficionados) last year, and have been looking forward to this album ever
    since; I haven't heard it yet, but it's getting rave reviews everywhere, and
    it is said to be the best thing Relapse did since Dillinger Escape Plan.
Enslaved "Monumension"
    Incredible album from these black metal descendants, totally misunderstood by
    the metal community for its reliance on Pink Floyd and King Crimson influences,
    heavy organ tracks, complex song-structures, etc.
Converge "Jane Doe"
    A blow in the face. A knife in the back. Fuckin' intense. Incredibly noisy.
    For those who have always wondered how Merzbow would translate to metal.
Meshuggah "Chaosphere"
    My favorite metal album of all time. Incredibly complex, I've seen tablatures
    where time signatures like 28/16, 25/16, 23/16, etc. were running amock in
    one and the same song. This is also an album that is widely misunderstood by
    the metal community. The much heard complaint that "all the tracks sound the
    same" goes a long way to support the theorem that a lot of people just don't
    have ears.
Arcturus "The Sham Mirrors" (4/9)
    If this is going to be anything like their previous masterpiece "La masquerade
    infernale" then we're up for something... Heavy prog-rock influences, operatic
    vocals, E.A.Poe poems for lyrics, carnival organ parts, drum'n'bass,...

Frankco





-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "john schuller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: More Melvins / Thrones
Date: 13 Mar 2002 00:49:03 -0800

I have to pipe in about the Melvins some more. I think that given some of
the desciptions I have been reading here that a lot of people think of them
as just "Metal" or "Drone". This is partly true and partly not.

Lysol is a huge influence on the "Leng Tche" album, yet WAY stronger and
more effective.

The Melvins are grounded in Metal in the way you could say Zorn is grounded
in Jazz. And their music stretches out and around all over the place as
well.

I guess I just don't want some people here to disregard them as just another
"metal" band. They are way beyond that.

As far as the Thrones. Go buy "Sperm Whale" right away. Joe Preston on bass
and vocals, and a drum machine. Very creative, very sick, very heavy, very
much the way the future of music should be. You will not be disappointed.
Live - he is a force to be reckoned with.

John Schuller

_________________________________________________________________
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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Bernie hotmail" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Meshuggah
Date: 13 Mar 2002 12:41:25 +0100

I would add the album "Destroy Erase Improve" by Meshuggah which is balanced
and highly intensive in good music features.

Bernie.

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 8:31 AM


>
>
>
> > well, i know Zorn likes the Melvins.  a friend of mine asked him what
metal
> > he was into, and he listed The Melvins, Napalm Death, and Death.
>
> Aha, Zorn likes them, so they *must* be good, right? And the other two
metal
> bands he likes must probably also be the absolute bomb, then?
>
> The Melvins are but one (but, admittedly, a very good one), in a string of
> bands that have sport a very thick, droney sound. Others are Earth, Isis
> (now on Mike Patton's Ipecac), SunO))), and the Japanese bands Corrupted
and Boris
> (I bet you Zorn is totally into Corrupted).
>
> We've had this metal discussion before, and it must be repeated that there
are
> tons of good metal records coming out, some even ground-breaking, some
even more
> avant-garde than the self-declared avant-garde; a lot more than The Wire
would dare to
> admit.
>
> Check out:
>
> Mortician "Domain of Death"
>     NY gore core, super-fast drumming, intros from all kinds of horror
movies, totally
>     excellent; they will have a new album later this year with live drums
for the first
>     time.
> Morbid Angel "Formulas Fatal to the Flesh"
>     Stunning guitar extravaganza from Trey Azagthoth, who would be hailed
as an
>     avant-garde guitar genius by The Wire if only he didn't play metal.
> Nile "Black Seeds of Vengeance"
>     Probably the best death metal in recent years; super-complex songs
with hardly
>     any room to breathe, everything at break-neck speed, multi-layered,
fascinating.
>     They'll also have a new album out this year.
> Burnt by the Sun "Soundtrack to the Personal Revolution"
>     I caught their drummer live with Melt-Banana (so there's another
tie-in for the
>     Zorn afficionados) last year, and have been looking forward to this
album ever
>     since; I haven't heard it yet, but it's getting rave reviews
everywhere, and
>     it is said to be the best thing Relapse did since Dillinger Escape
Plan.
> Enslaved "Monumension"
>     Incredible album from these black metal descendants, totally
misunderstood by
>     the metal community for its reliance on Pink Floyd and King Crimson
influences,
>     heavy organ tracks, complex song-structures, etc.
> Converge "Jane Doe"
>     A blow in the face. A knife in the back. Fuckin' intense. Incredibly
noisy.
>     For those who have always wondered how Merzbow would translate to
metal.
> Meshuggah "Chaosphere"
>     My favorite metal album of all time. Incredibly complex, I've seen
tablatures
>     where time signatures like 28/16, 25/16, 23/16, etc. were running
amock in
>     one and the same song. This is also an album that is widely
misunderstood by
>     the metal community. The much heard complaint that "all the tracks
sound the
>     same" goes a long way to support the theorem that a lot of people just
don't
>     have ears.
> Arcturus "The Sham Mirrors" (4/9)
>     If this is going to be anything like their previous masterpiece "La
masquerade
>     infernale" then we're up for something... Heavy prog-rock influences,
operatic
>     vocals, E.A.Poe poems for lyrics, carnival organ parts,
drum'n'bass,...
>
> Frankco
>
>
>
>
>
> -
>
>

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ricardo Reis <[e-mail]>
Subject: music resource on-line
Date: 13 Mar 2002 12:16:57 +0000 (WET)


Hi!

    The Fonoteca de Lisboa is part of the Camara Municipal de Lisboa
(the city hall here) and is a library of sound records (so to speak). one
can freely go to their installations and listen to CDs or music related
publications or... go to their site and do the same thing! just found out
they have most of their CD catalog on mp3 format for home listening
through the net. a search engine is also available. the record collection
is vast and enlarging and it is also a chance for you to listen to some
portuguese music and deciding if you like it before expending money on it
(the same goes for oher music but as portuguese seems difficult to get out
it would be a waste not to point it). url is as follows:

    http://www.cm-lisboa.pt/Fonoteca/oqueee.htm

            greets,
                 Ricardo Reis

                "Non Serviam"


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Efr=E9n=20del=20Valle?= <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fwd: Meshuggah
Date: 13 Mar 2002 14:44:47 +0100 (CET)

HI,

Since we're into metal, I'd also like to add one more
name that didn't came up: Today is the Day. I only
heard their first album, "Supernova" when it came out,
and it's some of the most intense, oppresive and
overwhelming music I've ever heard. I don't know what
their later works sound like, just listened to "Temple
of the Morning Star" and didn't like that sort of more
"straight-ahead" heavy metal.

Best,

EfrΘn del VAlle
n.p: John Zorn "Duras"


>
> I would add the album "Destroy Erase Improve" by
> Meshuggah which is balanced
> and highly intensive in good music features.
>
> Bernie.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <[e-mail]>
> To: <[e-mail]>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 8:31 AM
> Subject: Re: Zorn List Digest V3 #815
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> > > well, i know Zorn likes the Melvins.  a friend
> of mine asked him what
> metal
> > > he was into, and he listed The Melvins, Napalm
> Death, and Death.
> >
> > Aha, Zorn likes them, so they *must* be good,
> right? And the other two
> metal
> > bands he likes must probably also be the absolute
> bomb, then?
> >
> > The Melvins are but one (but, admittedly, a very
> good one), in a string of
> > bands that have sport a very thick, droney sound.
> Others are Earth, Isis
> > (now on Mike Patton's Ipecac), SunO))), and the
> Japanese bands Corrupted
> and Boris
> > (I bet you Zorn is totally into Corrupted).
> >
> > We've had this metal discussion before, and it
> must be repeated that there
> are
> > tons of good metal records coming out, some even
> ground-breaking, some
> even more
> > avant-garde than the self-declared avant-garde; a
> lot more than The Wire
> would dare to
> > admit.
> >
> > Check out:
> >
> > Mortician "Domain of Death"
> >     NY gore core, super-fast drumming, intros from
> all kinds of horror
> movies, totally
> >     excellent; they will have a new album later
> this year with live drums
> for the first
> >     time.
> > Morbid Angel "Formulas Fatal to the Flesh"
> >     Stunning guitar extravaganza from Trey
> Azagthoth, who would be hailed
> as an
> >     avant-garde guitar genius by The Wire if only
> he didn't play metal.
> > Nile "Black Seeds of Vengeance"
> >     Probably the best death metal in recent years;
> super-complex songs
> with hardly
> >     any room to breathe, everything at break-neck
> speed, multi-layered,
> fascinating.
> >     They'll also have a new album out this year.
> > Burnt by the Sun "Soundtrack to the Personal
> Revolution"
> >     I caught their drummer live with Melt-Banana
> (so there's another
> tie-in for the
> >     Zorn afficionados) last year, and have been
> looking forward to this
> album ever
> >     since; I haven't heard it yet, but it's
> getting rave reviews
> everywhere, and
> >     it is said to be the best thing Relapse did
> since Dillinger Escape
> Plan.
> > Enslaved "Monumension"
> >     Incredible album from these black metal
> descendants, totally
> misunderstood by
> >     the metal community for its reliance on Pink
> Floyd and King Crimson
> influences,
> >     heavy organ tracks, complex song-structures,
> etc.
> > Converge "Jane Doe"
> >     A blow in the face. A knife in the back.
> Fuckin' intense. Incredibly
> noisy.
> >     For those who have always wondered how Merzbow
> would translate to
> metal.
> > Meshuggah "Chaosphere"
> >     My favorite metal album of all time.
> Incredibly complex, I've seen
> tablatures
> >     where time signatures like 28/16, 25/16,
> 23/16, etc. were running
> amock in
> >     one and the same song. This is also an album
> that is widely
> misunderstood by
> >     the metal community. The much heard complaint
> that "all the tracks
> sound the
> >     same" goes a long way to support the theorem
> that a lot of people just
> don't
> >     have ears.
> > Arcturus "The Sham Mirrors" (4/9)
> >     If this is going to be anything like their
> previous masterpiece "La
> masquerade
> >     infernale" then we're up for something...
> Heavy prog-rock influences,
> operatic
> >     vocals, E.A.Poe poems for lyrics, carnival
> organ parts,
> drum'n'bass,...
> >
> > Frankco
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -
> >
> >
>
> -
>

_______________________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Messenger
Comunicaci≤n instantßnea gratis con tu gente.
http://messenger.yahoo.es

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Efr=E9n=20del=20Valle?= <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fwd: music resource on-line
Date: 13 Mar 2002 14:52:31 +0100 (CET)

Hi,

I'd encourage everyone to check this resource. I've
done it and I'm amazed by the results!

Thanks a lot, Ricardo.

Best,

EfrΘn del Valle

>
> Hi!
>
>     The Fonoteca de Lisboa is part of the Camara
> Municipal de Lisboa
> (the city hall here) and is a library of sound
> records (so to speak). one
> can freely go to their installations and listen to
> CDs or music related
> publications or... go to their site and do the same
> thing! just found out
> they have most of their CD catalog on mp3 format for
> home listening
> through the net. a search engine is also available.
> the record collection
> is vast and enlarging and it is also a chance for
> you to listen to some
> portuguese music and deciding if you like it before
> expending money on it
> (the same goes for oher music but as portuguese
> seems difficult to get out
> it would be a waste not to point it). url is as
> follows:
>
>     http://www.cm-lisboa.pt/Fonoteca/oqueee.htm
>
>             greets,
>                  Ricardo Reis
>
>                 "Non Serviam"
>
>
> -
>

_______________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Messenger
Comunicaci≤n instantßnea gratis con tu gente.
http://messenger.yahoo.es

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Michael=20Gillham?= <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Melvins
Date: 13 Mar 2002 14:44:42 +0000 (GMT)


>Funny thing about old news is that it always remains
>new news to someone somewhere.
Absolutely, but I think what I meant to say was, "I
can't be BOTHERED to repeat myself...".

>I'm not picking on you, Michael. Poking you in the
>ribs, maybe, but not picking on you.
I think I've explained myself above. Ha. Even if you
were picking on me, I'm a big boy now, and can handle
it. And the last time someone poked me in the ribs, I
punched them in the gut.

"Prick" and "Honkey" certainly aren't "noise" albums.
"Prick" is often described as an "experimental" album
(alot of people don't like it), but to me it's just
Melvins being Melvins.

Bravo to the chap who listed those Melvins titles as
recommendations, but my favourite Melvins record is
the one I'm listening to at the time. I really can't
recommend  particular title for beginners. Again, for
anyone interested, just start at the start and work
your way through the discography.

Indeed, I like Thrones alot. Obviously Joe was in
Earth, Melvins, etc. My favourite Thrones release is
"Alraune" CD (Communion), and this is the first title
I recommend to anyone interested, and then
"Sperm Whale" (Kill Rock Stars).

Thrones website :
http://www.killrockstars.com/bands/thrones/

Without going completely OTT, personally, I think Joe
is one of the most interesing musicians active today,
and one that I have alot of time for.

And don't get me talking about Earth, because I like
to think of myself as an 'expert' and/or 'authority'
on them, and this'd never end...






__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Everything you'll ever need on one web page
from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
http://uk.my.yahoo.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "graham stephenson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: birth & happy apple, minneapolis, thursday
Date: 13 Mar 2002 16:35:32 +0000

two great modern jazz trios are performing in minneapolis tomorrow (thursday
3/14).  just wanted to give the heads-up and the recommendation.

they are both drums/sax/electric bass groups that i suppose you could
compare to tim berne's bloodcount, medeski martin wood and squarepusher.

i've never seen Birth (birthsound.com), but they are based in cleveland and
NYC, and consist of joshua smith (ts/as), joe tomino (d), jeremy bleich (b).
  Cuong Vu guests on their new cd.

i've been to dozens of happy apple (happyapplegroup.com) shows, and they
consist of david king (d) michael lewis (ts, as, ss), and eric fratzke (b).
amazing group.  according to city pages, john zorn has voiced support for
these hometown favorites.

they're going to play a set each, and then a combined set under the name
Orange Car Crash 14 Times.  should be awesome.

10pm, loring pasta bar (in dinkytown) 18+, cheap


     __  (\_
    (_ \ ( '>
      ) \/_)=
      (_(_ )_
     squirrel


_________________________________________________________________
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http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ricardo Reis <[e-mail]>
Subject: Scelsi
Date: 13 Mar 2002 16:47:09 +0000 (WET)


    A friend just introduced me to Giacinto Scelsi through "AION /
PFHAT / KONX-OM-PAX" from orchestre and choeur da la radio-television
polonaise.
    impressive. the voices span and fill up space. the feeling is of
crushing futurism, the futurism i see in the sound that is not in "2001,
space odissey" (this is a hard concept but i'm failing on words). check it
out.
            greets,
                 Ricardo Reis

                "Non Serviam"


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: David Slusser <[e-mail]>
Subject: Xu Feng
Date: 13 Mar 2002 10:37:59 -0800

Jonas Leddington wrote:

>As for Zorn knowing drums, I entirely agree.  He recently performed Xu
>Feng at the Miller Theatre in New York as a closing tribute to the actress
>during a mini-fest of Hong Kong cinema.  While I understand it was
>originally recorded as a piece for two guitars, two electronics players, and
>two drums, the Miller performance was for six drums.  (Of the six, I recall
>only Susie
>Ibarra.)
>
>I have not heard the original piece, but the drum performance was
>outstanding, at the same time focused and varied, employing multifarious
>rhythms and abundant improvisation over a unity just hidden from view, as it
>were.  Zorn directed various combinations of all six players, each of whom
>assumed a distinct personality.  From where I sat I could see a number of
>the cards, which were surprisingly simple: "rhythmic", "fast", "slow",
>"quiet" -- and, seeing the cards, it became very clear that the drummers
>were working within distinct if broad parameters that must have been laid
>out quite carefully before hand (the source of the unity).
>
>Any comments on the recorded Xu Feng would be much appreciated.

I'm pretty sure it was originally, or at least alternatively, conceived
for six drummers.  The configuration on the record is the "concerto"
version, as in concerto for two drummers, where the guitars and electronics
provide the ensemble relief.  You wouldn't know it from the score, which
is Cobra based; very democratic, with no favoritism for the drums, but it
works out that way.  Cobra on steroids, adding a few more complicated
strategies and detours.  In the six drummer version, it resembles Cobra
even more, for the players are on equal footing.  What may seem to
have been laid out quite carefully before hand (I don't think Zorn
would go for that)
is actually the result of properly performing the intricate score; playing
the game piece following its Byzantine rules.  One particular operation
called fencing, more readily apparent in the concerto version, requires
a trio to simultaneously play in three different genres.  Once you start
in that section, you have to stick to your genre, staying in character
as it were - perhaps what you observed in the players assuming a distinct
personality.  Done well, it would seem to have been laid out beforehand;
something that can be said of the entire piece.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Samuel Haase" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: More Melvins / Thrones
Date: 13 Mar 2002 14:16:01 -0600


I guess I just don't want some people here to disregard them as just another
"metal" band. They are way beyond that.

  And I want anyone who read that who hasn't checked out metal yet not to
assume metal bands suck or make unsophisticated music.  some do, but if you
speak in terms like "just another metal band" then you haven't heard the
good metal and you are missing out imho.
  -samuel

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From: "Samuel Haase" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: More Melvins / Thrones
Date: 13 Mar 2002 14:15:55 -0600


I guess I just don't want some people here to disregard them as just another
"metal" band. They are way beyond that.

  And I want anyone who read that who hasn't checked out metal yet not to
assume metal bands suck or make unsophisticated music.  some do, but if you
speak in terms like "just another metal band" then you haven't heard the
good metal and you are missing out imho.
  -samuel

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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Samuel Haase" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: More Melvins / Thrones
Date: 13 Mar 2002 14:15:55 -0600


I guess I just don't want some people here to disregard them as just another
"metal" band. They are way beyond that.

  And I want anyone who read that who hasn't checked out metal yet not to
assume metal bands suck or make unsophisticated music.  some do, but if you
speak in terms like "just another metal band" then you haven't heard the
good metal and you are missing out imho.
  -samuel

_________________________________________________________________
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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Samuel Haase" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: More Melvins / Thrones
Date: 13 Mar 2002 14:16:11 -0600


I guess I just don't want some people here to disregard them as just another
"metal" band. They are way beyond that.

  And I want anyone who read that who hasn't checked out metal yet not to
assume metal bands suck or make unsophisticated music.  some do, but if you
speak in terms like "just another metal band" then you haven't heard the
good metal and you are missing out imho.
  -samuel

_________________________________________________________________
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Samuel Haase" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: More Melvins / Thrones
Date: 13 Mar 2002 14:16:10 -0600


I guess I just don't want some people here to disregard them as just another
"metal" band. They are way beyond that.

  And I want anyone who read that who hasn't checked out metal yet not to
assume metal bands suck or make unsophisticated music.  some do, but if you
speak in terms like "just another metal band" then you haven't heard the
good metal and you are missing out imho.
  -samuel

_________________________________________________________________
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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Samuel Haase" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: More Melvins / Thrones
Date: 13 Mar 2002 14:16:02 -0600


I guess I just don't want some people here to disregard them as just another
"metal" band. They are way beyond that.

  And I want anyone who read that who hasn't checked out metal yet not to
assume metal bands suck or make unsophisticated music.  some do, but if you
speak in terms like "just another metal band" then you haven't heard the
good metal and you are missing out imho.
  -samuel

_________________________________________________________________
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Samuel Haase" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: More Melvins / Thrones
Date: 13 Mar 2002 14:16:15 -0600


I guess I just don't want some people here to disregard them as just another
"metal" band. They are way beyond that.

  And I want anyone who read that who hasn't checked out metal yet not to
assume metal bands suck or make unsophisticated music.  some do, but if you
speak in terms like "just another metal band" then you haven't heard the
good metal and you are missing out imho.
  -samuel

_________________________________________________________________
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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Samuel Haase" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: More Melvins / Thrones
Date: 13 Mar 2002 14:16:16 -0600


I guess I just don't want some people here to disregard them as just another
"metal" band. They are way beyond that.

  And I want anyone who read that who hasn't checked out metal yet not to
assume metal bands suck or make unsophisticated music.  some do, but if you
speak in terms like "just another metal band" then you haven't heard the
good metal and you are missing out imho.
  -samuel

_________________________________________________________________
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Samuel Haase" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: More Melvins / Thrones
Date: 13 Mar 2002 14:17:12 -0600


I guess I just don't want some people here to disregard them as just another
"metal" band. They are way beyond that.

  And I want anyone who read that who hasn't checked out metal yet not to
assume metal bands suck or make unsophisticated music.  some do, but if you
speak in terms like "just another metal band" then you haven't heard the
good metal and you are missing out imho.
  -samuel

_________________________________________________________________
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Samuel Haase" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: More Melvins / Thrones
Date: 13 Mar 2002 14:17:12 -0600


I guess I just don't want some people here to disregard them as just another
"metal" band. They are way beyond that.

  And I want anyone who read that who hasn't checked out metal yet not to
assume metal bands suck or make unsophisticated music.  some do, but if you
speak in terms like "just another metal band" then you haven't heard the
good metal and you are missing out imho.
  -samuel

_________________________________________________________________
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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "john schuller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Re: More Melvins / Thrones
Date: 13 Mar 2002 12:32:31 -0800

Exactly. Please also check out Electric Wizard, High On Fire, SUNN0))),
Khanate, Spirit Caravan and Warhorse for some good current METAL!

By the way...when I speak of "Just another Metal Band" I am talking about
the garbage shit that is out there...Death to false METAL!

John Schuller


I guess I just don't want some people here to disregard them as just another
"metal" band. They are way beyond that.

  And I want anyone who read that who hasn't checked out metal yet not to
assume metal bands suck or make unsophisticated music.  some do, but if you
speak in terms like "just another metal band" then you haven't heard the
good metal and you are missing out imho.
  -samuel


_________________________________________________________________
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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Thierry Raguin <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: the Melvins
Date: 13 Mar 2002 21:48:35 +0100

Theo Klaase wrote:

>Fantomas led me to the Melvins...  After "Stoner
>Witch" I have proceeded to buy 7 other albums on my
>way to the entire collection....
>
Same with me, but the greatest band on earth is and will remain
MAGMA!!!!!!

- TR



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "William York" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Melvins and beyond...
Date: 13 Mar 2002 21:12:46

I'm behind here so apologies if this stuff has been covered already, but I
had to...

A):

>* Richard's primer for Melvins beginners, which I've found pretty >useful,
>was as follows: Houdini, Bullhead, Eggnog, Stoner Witch, Gluey >Porch
>Treatments, Stag, 10 Songs, the Amphetamine Reptile 2CD >collection of
>monthly 7"s, Your Choice Live. (Obviously, some of these >have been harder
>to find than others...) He also added, "Note: Prick >and Honky are noise
>records a la Colossus of Destiny." Richard, if >you're still here,
>continued thanks.

This is a good list but I can't believe Ozma isn't on it! I have the CD that
has Ozma and GPT together and it is still my favorite of theirs. Bullhead
and Houdini (first half of it, mainly) are my two other faves.

B)

Re: Thrones: It is the one-man band of Joe Preston. He plays bass with cheap
but still imaginatively drum machine accompaniment and uses lots of vocal
effects. Very eccentric sludge rock/metal. I recommend downloading his cover
of Rush's "Oracle." It is my favorite thing I have heard by him, and not
currently available (was on a 7" I believe).

You can DL it here:

http://www.killrockstars.com/bands/thrones/audio/Oracle.mp3

C):

Someone mentioned Melvins as an influence on early Naked City, but actually
I only hear them on the "tribute" song on Radio (I think that song is
actually pretty weak) and of course Leng T'ch'e. But ultimately -- and this
is coming from someone who was way into Zorn way before I ever heard Melvins
-- stuff like Ozma and Gluey Porch Treatments makes Leng T'ch'e look (well,
sound) pretty puny.

D):

Re: Melvins/Fantomas Big Band: I don't know, I was at that show, and while I
basically enjoyed it, I don't have any real desire to get the CD.
Considering the musicians involved, this could have really been something --
maybe they could have done a real "definitive" version of Leng T'ch'e or
something. But instead it was more of a giant medley of first-album Fantomas
and recent Melvins, with a lot of Patton's control-freak antics and over
self-consciousness, something that bothers me with many of his live
performances.

E:)

Someone mentioned a few other sludge-type bands that fall into a similar
category as Melvins: Earth, Sunn0))), Boris, etc. But anyway, I would
recommend checking out these albums as great examples of
sludge/doom/metal/etc.:

Boris - Absolutego -- one track, 65 minutes of slow motion sludge agony
(plus a bonus track)

Eyehategod - Dopesick -- www.lastplanetojakarta.com just had a good article
on these guys, asking whether this or 'Confederacy of Ruined Lives' was the
better album. I vote for this one ...

Old Man Gloom -- Seminar III -- someone mentioned ISIS, but I like these
guys (who do include a member of ISIS) a little better.

I should stop here, this is just the tip of the iceberg.....

Will



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "William York" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: More metal
Date: 13 Mar 2002 21:38:36

>Burnt by the Sun "Soundtrack to the Personal Revolution"

>I caught their drummer live with Melt-Banana (so there's another tie->in
>for the Zorn afficionados) last year, and have been looking forward >to
>this album ever since; I haven't heard it yet, but it's getting >rave
>reviews everywhere, and it is said to be the best thing Relapse >did since
>Dillinger Escape Plan.

Yes, this is great, although minute for minute I like their s/t EP (8
minutes) a tad better than this (25 minutes + a brief guitar inst.). The
lyrics very occasionally lapse into some righteous/sociological
complaint-oriented territory that I don't really like, but in terms of this
not-exactly metal, not-exactly hardcore, not-exactly grindcore type of thing
(Relapse's specialty), yes, it "delivers the goods."

If you like BBTS be on the lookout for the Human Remains 2CD anthology that
is coming out (same drummer and one of the same guitarists). Very
influential post-grindcore (?) band that gets props from Dillinger Escape
Plan, Gorguts, many others.

>Converge "Jane Doe"
>A blow in the face. A knife in the back. Fuckin' intense. Incredibly
> >noisy. For those who have always wondered how Merzbow would translate >to
>metal.

Right, the first two tracks on this are absolutely amazing, although the
rest doesn't quite grab me as much. And I hate to be pedantic or anal, but I
guess technically this gets called "hardcore" rather than metal (well,
noisecore or metalcore are two other terms...).

Oh yeah! Speaking of Merzbow and metal, I forgot to mention the new Sunn0)))
album, which is not quite metal, but which does have Merzbow mixing two of
the tracks. So, if you were wondering how Merzbow would translate to
Melvins-type sludge (minus the drums or song structures) ... this is an
amazing album.

Merzbow also did a remix of Discordance Axis' (another band with Burnt by
the Sun's drummer) album 'The Inalienable Dreamleass', which is grindcore
and a lot choppier and noisier (the remix, that is). You can still download
this at the DA site, I think.

>Meshuggah "Chaosphere"
>My favorite metal album of all time. Incredibly complex, I've seen
>tablatures where time signatures like 28/16, 25/16, 23/16, etc. were
> >running amock in one and the same song.

The weird thing is that I find them musically very interesting but don't
really totally get into them, in large part b/c of the vocals.

>Arcturus "The Sham Mirrors" (4/9)
>If this is going to be anything like their previous masterpiece "La
>masquerade infernale" then we're up for something... Heavy prog-rock
> >influences, operatic vocals, E.A.Poe poems for lyrics, carnival organ
> >parts, drum'n'bass,...

I love that album, although I was physically repulsed by it at first. I
think Garm (or whatever he's calling himself now) is just one of the best
vocalists in rock/metal/whatever, based on his singing and/or screaming in
Arcturus, Ulver, and the first two Borknagar albums (love those Norewgian
band names). I'm listening to an MP3 from the new one right now (go to
www.theendrecords.com) and it does sound pretty great. I'm excited.

I do need to shut up now, but I'm always happy to talk metal, especially the
weird stuff!

WY

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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rick Lopez <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: birth & happy apple, minneapolis, thursday
Date: 13 Mar 2002 17:41:40 -0500

on 02.03.13 11:35 AM, graham stephenson at [e-mail] wrote:

> two great modern jazz trios are performing in minneapolis tomorrow (thursday
> 3/14).  just wanted to give the heads-up and the recommendation.
>
> i've never seen Birth (birthsound.com), but they are based in cleveland and
> NYC, and consist of joshua smith (ts/as), joe tomino (d), jeremy bleich (b).

Fantastic young trio, really thrilling.

Consider: Joe Maneri chose to tour with them several months back, and they
sounded like an actual working group with only a few rehearsals. I
immediately bought multiple copies of their CD.

Next: Mr. Ernest Dawkins. Just caught him for the first time with Ethnic
Heritage (and I'd never heard Zabar on traps before-- he was like Nature
With Sticks) and Dawkins and Ari Brown together were a beautifully
contrasted pair of horns-- but anyway my question is, what discs do I want
to hear that have the Dawkins fellow present?

aiyiyi,
RL

http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k CRISPELL;  IBARRA; Wm. PARKER; RIVERS; SHIPP;
D.S. WARE; COURVOISIER; ENEIDI; MANERI; MORRIS; SPEARMAN; THREADGILL;
WORKMAN; Beckett Eulogy; Baseball & the 10,000 Things; Time Stops; LOVETORN;
HARD BOIL; LUCILLE, a Reverential Journal of the Care of the Beloved Hag...


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Herb Levy <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Xu Feng
Date: 13 Mar 2002 19:55:07 -0600

David Slusser <[e-mail]>

>
>Jonas Leddington wrote:
>
>  >As for Zorn knowing drums, I entirely agree.  He recently performed Xu
>  >Feng at the Miller Theatre in New York as a closing tribute to the actress
>  >during a mini-fest of Hong Kong cinema.  While I understand it was
>  >originally recorded as a piece for two guitars, two electronics players, and
>  >two drums, the Miller performance was for six drums.  (Of the six, I recall
>  >only Susie
>  >Ibarra.)
>  >
>  >I have not heard the original piece, but the drum performance was
>  >outstanding, at the same time focused and varied, employing multifarious
>  >rhythms and abundant improvisation over a unity just hidden from view, as it
>  >were.  Zorn directed various combinations of all six players, each of whom
>  >assumed a distinct personality.  From where I sat I could see a number of
>  >the cards, which were surprisingly simple: "rhythmic", "fast", "slow",
>  >"quiet" -- and, seeing the cards, it became very clear that the drummers
>  >were working within distinct if broad parameters that must have been laid
>  >out quite carefully before hand (the source of the unity).
>  >
>  >Any comments on the recorded Xu Feng would be much appreciated.
>
>I'm pretty sure it was originally, or at least alternatively, conceived
>for six drummers.  The configuration on the record is the "concerto"
>version, as in concerto for two drummers, where the guitars and electronics
>provide the ensemble relief.  You wouldn't know it from the score, which
>is Cobra based; very democratic, with no favoritism for the drums, but it
>works out that way.  Cobra on steroids, adding a few more complicated
>strategies and detours.  In the six drummer version, it resembles Cobra
>even more, for the players are on equal footing.  What may seem to
>have been laid out quite carefully before hand (I don't think Zorn
>would go for that)
>is actually the result of properly performing the intricate score; playing
>the game piece following its Byzantine rules.  One particular operation
>called fencing, more readily apparent in the concerto version, requires
>a trio to simultaneously play in three different genres.  Once you start
>in that section, you have to stick to your genre, staying in character
>as it were - perhaps what you observed in the players assuming a distinct
>personality.  Done well, it would seem to have been laid out beforehand;
>something that can be said of the entire piece.

I can't say anything definitively about an "original" version, but I
heard the piece live at what I think was the first Vancouver Jazz
festival in 1985 (though it may have been the 2nd year) with a group
that included Eugene Chadbourne, Wayne Horvitz, Bobby Previte, Davey
Williams as well as a couple of BC musicians on keyboard & drums who
I don't remember now. The layering of genres that David Slusser
describes was the thing that struck me most then. At the time it made
sense as a piece for the whole ensemble made up of the New Traditions
in East Asian Bar Bands duets, though I don't know which pieces came
first.
--
Herb Levy
P O Box 9369  Forth Wort, Texas  76147  USA
817  377-2983
[e-mail]

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Stephen Scott bowed piano ensemble in St. Louis
Date: 14 Mar 2002 00:41:04 -0600

The Stephen Scott bowed piano ensemble can be heard in St. Louis, MO
tonight(March 14) at Christ Church Cathedral.  This is the first show of
their current tour which continues to Berlin and Prague.  This ensemble of
ten players will manipulate a single piano with guest soloist soprano
Victoria Hansen.  There are more details about the show at
http://newmusiccircle.org

Josh


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: More metal
Date: 14 Mar 2002 08:28:39 +0100





> Yes, this is great, although minute for minute I like their s/t EP (8
> minutes) a tad better than this (25 minutes + a brief guitar inst.). The
> lyrics very occasionally lapse into some righteous/sociological
> complaint-oriented territory that I don't really like, but in terms of this
> not-exactly metal, not-exactly hardcore, not-exactly grindcore type of thing
> (Relapse's specialty), yes, it "delivers the goods."

Speaking of grindcore, what *real* grindcore would you recommend? I was at a
Mortician show a couple of weeks ago, and the DJ played the most incredible
grindcore; the only band name I remember though was Prostitute Dismemberment,
which was a local band.

And, yes, Converge is in the hardcore section in record stores, but they sound
more metal to me (except for the vocals).

[Meshuggah]

> The weird thing is that I find them musically very interesting but don't
> really totally get into them, in large part b/c of the vocals.

There are many who hold this opinion. But the music is *so* amazing that even
without a top-notch singer you can't pass it by. I'm looking forward to their
new album "Turbulence" in the summer, even though I really think that they
will not be able to reach the same level of intensity and complexity, if only
because most of their fanbase would like them to return to the more ecclectic
sounds of "Destroy Erase Improve". And I know that I am in a definite minority
when I state that that album cannot stand in "Chaosphere"'s shadow in terms of
sheer brilliance and heaviness.

> I love that album, although I was physically repulsed by it at first. I
> think Garm (or whatever he's calling himself now) is just one of the best
> vocalists in rock/metal/whatever, based on his singing and/or screaming in
> Arcturus, Ulver, and the first two Borknagar albums (love those Norewgian
> band names). I'm listening to an MP3 from the new one right now (go to
> www.theendrecords.com) and it does sound pretty great. I'm excited.

Garm is amazing, and I think his main project Ulver is getting better all the
time. They are now completely in dark ambient/Coil territory, and everything
they released last year has been brilliant. Since the relation of Ulver's recent
material to metal is nil, I fail to understand why The Wire doesn't review it
Arcturus to me sounds like Edgar Allen Poe put to music, and that is not just
because they actually put an E.A.Poe poem to music ("Alone"). They have this weird
late-18th century decadent thing going on, the entire album reminds me mysterious
goings-on at the orgy scene in "Eyes Wide Shut". The "Deception Genesis" track which
is the most recent thing I've heard by them showed new, darker directions and I am
hoping they have developed along these lines. The lyrics had become more abstract
as well. With Garm's ever-decreasing interest in metal, I wonder where this project
will go.

Speaking of Merzbow, there are plans to release an Ulver remix album, and Merzbow
has already agreed to collaborate.

My favorite Melvins album has got to be "Ozma", by the way.

Frankco






-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: " A.VanValin" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Re: More Melvins / Thrones
Date: 14 Mar 2002 00:17:29 -0800


----- Original Message -----



> ...Death to false METAL!
>
> John Schuller

Cool. I knew I couldn't be the only Manowar fan on this list.

van


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: " A.VanValin" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Melvins
Date: 14 Mar 2002 00:23:35 -0800


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, 12 March, 2002 22:08



> Which leads to some sort of musicological Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon.

I thought the musical version was Six Degrees of Ritchie Blackmore...


van


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Herb Levy <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: More Melvins / Thrones
Date: 14 Mar 2002 06:17:06 -0600

"Samuel Haase" <[e-mail]> wrote & sent again & again:

>I guess I just don't want some people here to disregard them as just another
>"metal" band. They are way beyond that.
>
>   And I want anyone who read that who hasn't checked out metal yet not to
>assume metal bands suck or make unsophisticated music.  some do, but if you
>speak in terms like "just another metal band" then you haven't heard the
>good metal and you are missing out imho.
>   -samuel

Perhaps if you sent this e-mail to the list just one more time, your
message would get through ;)


--
Herb Levy
Mappings on Antenna Internet Radio
<http://www.antennaradio/mappings/show.htm>
[e-mail]

Mappings  P O Box 9369  Forth Wort, TX 76147  USA

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ricardo Reis <[e-mail]>
Subject: Frankenstein [NZC]
Date: 14 Mar 2002 12:46:36 +0000 (WET)


Greets!

    I've been given the chance to watch the first two Frankenstein
movies and in none of it the assistante to the Doctor is named Igor (it's
Fritz on the first movie). does anyone knows from where the "Igor" name,
related to the assistant of D.Frankenstein come? maybe I have been
imaginating things...

            greets,
                 Ricardo Reis

                "Non Serviam"


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ricardo Jorge" <[e-mail]>
Subject: slan (zorn, sharp, epstein)
Date: 14 Mar 2002 13:25:50 +0000


can anyone point me to a place were I can find any info on this band? all I
know is the line up and the tracks on "live at the knitting factory vol 3"


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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tosh <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Melvins
Date: 14 Mar 2002 06:20:56 -0800

>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Joseph Zitt" <[e-mail]>
>Sent: Tuesday, 12 March, 2002 22:08
>Subject: Re: Melvins
>
>
>
>>  Which leads to some sort of musicological Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon.
>
>I thought the musical version was Six Degrees of Ritchie Blackmore...
>
>
>van
>That would be great because I would love to add Joe Meek to this list!
>
>-


--
Tosh Berman
TamTam Books
http://www.tamtambooks.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Andreas Dietz" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fred Records
Date: 14 Mar 2002 15:48:22 +0100

ReR (www.rermegacorp.com/news/fredRecords.shtml) made an announcement about
the release schedule of the long awaited Fred records:

Release Schedule:
    Early Spring 2002
    Gravity
    Accidental (Music for Dance Volume 3)

    Summer 2002
    Guitar Solos
    Step Across the Border
    Prints (collection of songs and fragments)

    Fall 2002
    Middle of the Moment
    Keep the Dog Live (double CD)
    Speechless

    Spring 2003
    Helter Skelter
    Skeleton Crew/Learn to Talk & Country of Blinds
    Cheap at Half the Price

    Fall 2003
    Portraits d'Inconnus (versions of the installation from 1994)
    Massacre/Killing Time
    Propaganda (complete version)


Accidental (Music for Dance Volume 3) should be out in february - anyone
heard it?

Andreas

np: Greg Cohen - Way Low (DIW)


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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "PHILIP  PLENCNER" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn List Digest V3 #818
Date: 14 Mar 2002 09:31:33 -0600

 Theo Klaase wrote:
>
> >Fantomas led me to the Melvins...  After "Stoner
> >Witch" I have proceeded to buy 7 other albums on my
> >way to the entire collection....
> >
> Same with me, but the greatest band on earth is and will remain
> MAGMA!!!!!!
>
> - - TR
>
I'm going to have to wholeheartedly agree with this statement.  Magma was=
 an
astounding band!

  Do a lot of people on this list listen to Magma or other Zeuhl related
bands?  If not, might I recommend getting a hold of the Magma albums 'Udu
Wudu' ,'1001 Degres Centigrades' and 'K=F6hntark=F6sz'

As far as other related bands to check out obviously The Ruins and Happy
Family.  Also, the new Flying Luttenbachers album ('Infection and Decline=
')
has a cover of 'De Futura' on it that is really amazing.

Phil




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Kurt Gottschalk" <[e-mail]>
Subject: ernest dawkins
Date: 14 Mar 2002 15:46:54 +0000

i'm not up on all the dawkins, but i think the best example of his working
band, new horizons ensemble, is their first release, a live disc on
silkheart (i'm pretty sure) and the only one with the great reggie nicholson
on drums. 'south side street songs' is pretty nice, too.

his stuff is a little more laid back than alot of the aacm folks, strikes a
sorta lee morgan groove alot of the time.

he's only been in kahil el'zabar's longstanding trio ethnic heritage
ensemble (chicago cats have never been much for naming bands) for a few
years -- well, maybe 5 or 6, but a few for a decades-old band anyway. big
shoes, with ed wilkerson and light henry huff having previously filled the
chair. i don't think it's the best version of the band, but none of the
ethnic heritage discs will disappoint.

not sure the ethnic heritage is my fave kahil stuff, though. the
instrumentation is interesting, but the ritual trio (see what i mean?) stuff
is far stronger. i mean, how can you argue with malachi favors? and kahil's
david murray duos are fantastic.

so rick, you saw kahil, ernest, joe bowie *and* ari brown? that musta been
hot. when they played the knit, joe wasn't there (although billy bang sat in
for a cut or two).

http://aacmchicago.org/members/Dawkins.html

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Frankenstein [NZC]
Date: 14 Mar 2002 10:47:10 -0500

>does anyone knows from where the "Igor" name,
>related to the assistant of D.Frankenstein come

The best place to ask is the Mobius Home Video Board, one of the four or five best films sites.  Though it covers all types of movies (several recent discussions have focused on Godard and Rivette) there's a separate section devoted to horror/SF films that's frequented by numerous scholars, critics, collectors and just plain fans.

http://www.mhvf.net/forum/scifihorror/index.shtml


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Sean Westergaard" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: ernest dawkins
Date: 14 Mar 2002 10:51:04 -0500

I don't know how easy this will be to find, but there's a project called the
Aesop Quartet consisting of Dawkins, Rollo Radford on bass (Sun Ra, Corky
Seigel(?!)), Jeff Parker on guitar (Tortoise etc) and Hamid Drake on drums.
Some Chicago poet does some spoken word on a track, and DJ Rob Swift plays
turntable on a track as well.  it's on the 8th Harmonic Breakdown label, and
i thought it was pretty cool.

sean


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: aesop quartet (was Re: ernest dawkins)
Date: 14 Mar 2002 11:52:46 EST


In a message dated 03.14.02 11.01.53, [e-mail] writes:

>I don't know how easy this will be to find, but there's a project called
>the Aesop Quartet consisting of Dawkins, Rollo Radford on bass (Sun Ra, Corky
>Seigel(?!)), Jeff Parker on guitar (Tortoise etc) and Hamid Drake on drums.
>Some Chicago poet does some spoken word on a track, and DJ Rob Swift plays
>turntable on a track as well.  it's on the 8th Harmonic Breakdown label,
>and i thought it was pretty cool.

i don't know how easy this is to find, but i saw a copy come through the
record store i work at - and it was bought the same day it came in.  i did
manage to sneak in listening to the first two tracks on the disc, and it was
really interestingly weird.  it is kind of like backup slam-music...

love,
  k8.



---
[.n0thing.is.what.is.sAid.]
k a t e  p e t e r s o n
c o m p o s e r / p e r f o r m e r

http://www.geocities.com/uforbk8/kate.html
http://www.icefoundation.org (roundtable)

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Fwd: Re: Frankenstein [NZC]
Date: 14 Mar 2002 11:58:52 EST


------_Part_3c90d6cc-00af-4cd0-010203040506
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



------_Part_3c90d6cc-00af-4cd0-010203040506
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Return-Path: <[e-mail]>
Received: from  web46.aolmail.aol.com (web46.aolmail.aol.com [205.188.161.7]) by air-id12.mx.aol.com (v83.45) with ESMTP id MAILINID123-0314100319; Thu, 14 Mar 2002 10:03:19 -0500
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The third installment in the Universal series, SON OF FRANKENSTEIN (1939) features Bela Lugosi as the broken-necked shepard, Ygor.  He also reprises the role in GHOST OF FRANKENSTEIN (1942).

------_Part_3c90d6cc-00af-4cd0-010203040506--

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dave Trenkel <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: More metal
Date: 14 Mar 2002 10:14:11 -0800

At 9:38 PM -0800 3/13/2002, William York wrote:
>
>The weird thing is that I find them musically very interesting but
>don't really totally get into them, in large part b/c of the vocals.
>
I have the same problem with Fredrik Thordendal's (Meshuggah
guitarist) solo release, great music, probably the closest to Naked
City that I've heard in a metal band, but the vocals are pretty
annoying. Are there any great, I mean really great, instrumental
metal bands? I love Meshuggah, Morbid Angel, etc., but find I listen
around the "cookie monster" vocals. I'm aware of stuff like Blind
Idiot God, Don Caballero and the whole math-rock scene, and various
other stuff, but what about true, ultra complex, ultra heavy metal?
I'd love an instrumental remix of "chaosphere", for example.

BTW, I saw Morbid Angel live last year in a tiny club, totally
mind-blowing. Trey Azagathoth (sp?) is an absolute virtuoso.
--
Dave Trenkel                                New and Improv Music
http://www.newandimprov.com         [e-mail]


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Thierry Raguin <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn List Digest V3 #818
Date: 14 Mar 2002 19:19:56 +0100

PHILIP PLENCNER wrote:

> Theo Klaase wrote:
>
>>>Fantomas led me to the Melvins...  After "Stoner
>>>Witch" I have proceeded to buy 7 other albums on my
>>>way to the entire collection....
>>>
>>Same with me, but the greatest band on earth is and will remain
>>MAGMA!!!!!!
>>
>>- - TR
>>
>I'm going to have to wholeheartedly agree with this statement.  Magma was an
>astounding band!
>
>  Do a lot of people on this list listen to Magma or other Zeuhl related
>bands?  If not, might I recommend getting a hold of the Magma albums 'Udu
>Wudu' ,'1001 Degres Centigrades' and 'K÷hntark÷sz'
>
No! Magma IS! Not WAS! They still exist and are quite active!

Concerning albums to listen to, I would definitely suggest Mδkan∩k
Dδstrukt∩w K÷mmand÷h, and the whole Theusz Hamtaahk trilogy. For people
interested in knowing more: http://www.seventhrecords.com/ and
http://ddesassis.free.fr/magma/index2.htm

- TR


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: re: more metal
Date: 14 Mar 2002 13:21:11 EST

It is funny that you said cookie monster.  I have a 4 year old brother.  I
played Morbid Angel for him, and that was exactly what he called the vocals.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Kurt Gottschalk" <[e-mail]>
Subject: vision
Date: 14 Mar 2002 18:26:37 +0000


the vision fest schedule is up at visionfestival.org. (then, hollering)
Joelle Leandre Hamid Drake duo!


_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: aesop quartet (was Re: ernest dawkins)
Date: 14 Mar 2002 15:43:12 -0600

On Thu, Mar 14, 2002 at 11:52:46AM -0500, [e-mail] wrote:
>
> it is kind of like backup slam-music...

Uh, okay, what is "backup slam-music"?

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Dawkins
Date: 13 Mar 2002 18:26:32 -0500 (EST)

Rick (et. al):

Dawkins is featured on several Ethnic heritage
Ensemble discs on Delmark with Kahil El Zabar and Joe
Bowie. His own band has two discs on Silkheart, one on
Delamark and one on his own DAWK label.

Get 'em all.

Ken Waxman
--- Rick Lopez <[e-mail]> wrote:
> on 02.03.13 11:35 AM, graham stephenson at
> [e-mail] wrote:
>
> Next: Mr. Ernest Dawkins. Just caught him for the
> first time with Ethnic
> Heritage (and I'd never heard Zabar on traps
> before-- he was like Nature
> With Sticks) and Dawkins and Ari Brown together were
> a beautifully
> contrasted pair of horns-- but anyway my question
> is, what discs do I want
> to hear that have the Dawkins fellow present?


=====
Ken Waxman
[e-mail]
www.jazzword.com - Jazz/improv news, CD reviews and photos

______________________________________________________________________
Find, Connect, Date! http://personals.yahoo.ca





-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Chris Selvig <[e-mail]>
Subject: The Ornette Fight
Date: 24 Jan 2002 14:33:02 -0800

Julian wrote: 'On these other lists it is quite common to have one person
say "just my opinion" and another to say "no, well it's wrong" - they just
don't know any better. I thought the Zorn list was above this, but I guess
I was wrong...'   While I feel a bit silly about defending Mr Heller, who
seems more than capable of carrying the argument on his own, I'm not seeing
the problem with Mr Heller's arguments against Ornette.  I have since
deleted the rest of the recent Ornette thread, but I don't remember Skip
saying "You are wrong to like Ornette;" rather, that he does not like
Ornette and he then gave his reasons for why he thinks that why.  Jeez, he
even keeps an Ornette record or two around and pulls them out to make sure
he is not wrong.


Chris Selvig






-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Efr=E9n=20del=20Valle?= <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fwd: Fred Records
Date: 14 Mar 2002 16:27:58 +0100 (CET)

Hi,

Talking about FF, his two new releases are already
out, Maybe Monday on W&W and "Freedom in Fragments" on
Tzadik. I already made my reservation but if anyone
heard this and thinks I must cancel them... (which is
unlikely).

Thanks in advance.

Best,

Efrin del Valle
>
> ReR (www.rermegacorp.com/news/fredRecords.shtml)
> made an announcement about
> the release schedule of the long awaited Fred
> records:
>
> Release Schedule:
>     Early Spring 2002
>     Gravity
>     Accidental (Music for Dance Volume 3)
>
>     Summer 2002
>     Guitar Solos
>     Step Across the Border
>     Prints (collection of songs and fragments)
>
>     Fall 2002
>     Middle of the Moment
>     Keep the Dog Live (double CD)
>     Speechless
>
>     Spring 2003
>     Helter Skelter
>     Skeleton Crew/Learn to Talk & Country of Blinds
>     Cheap at Half the Price
>
>     Fall 2003
>     Portraits d'Inconnus (versions of the
> installation from 1994)
>     Massacre/Killing Time
>     Propaganda (complete version)
>
>
> Accidental (Music for Dance Volume 3) should be out
> in february - anyone
> heard it?
>
> Andreas

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rick Lopez <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: ernest dawkins
Date: 14 Mar 2002 17:55:35 -0500

on 02.03.14 10:46 AM, Kurt Gottschalk at [e-mail] wrote:

> so rick, you saw kahil, ernest, joe bowie *and* ari brown? that musta been
> hot. when they played the knit, joe wasn't there (although billy bang sat in
> for a cut or two).

No-- it was Kahil, with just the two horns of Brown and Dawkins.

It was a very beautiful evening.

yup,
rl

http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k CRISPELL;  IBARRA; Wm. PARKER; RIVERS; SHIPP;
D.S. WARE; COURVOISIER; ENEIDI; MANERI; MORRIS; SPEARMAN; THREADGILL;
WORKMAN; Beckett Eulogy; Baseball & the 10,000 Things; Time Stops; LOVETORN;
HARD BOIL; LUCILLE, a Reverential Journal of the Care of the Beloved Hag...


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Caleb T. Deupree" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: More metal
Date: 14 Mar 2002 21:03:56 -0500

At 10:14 AM 3/14/02 -0800, Dave Trenkel wrote:
>great music, probably the closest to Naked
>City that I've heard in a metal band, but the vocals are pretty
>annoying.

You mean, as opposed to Yamantaka Eye's (sorry, couldn't resist...)
--

Caleb Deupree
[e-mail]

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "&c." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Captain Beefheart
Date: 14 Mar 2002 21:42:23 -0500

I would like some recommendations on Capt Beefheart albums to check out
both as good starting places and personal favorites.  Thanks in advance.

Zach

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Lang Thompson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Captain Beefheart
Date: 14 Mar 2002 22:05:08 -0500

>I would like some recommendations on Capt Beefheart albums to check out
>both as good starting places and personal favorites.  Thanks in advance.

I remember years ago reading about Beefheart and thinking he sounded fairly
interesting but since he was a buddy of Zappa decided he couldn't be too
good.  But then Beefheart played on Saturday Night Live (those were the
days, eh?) and I was blown away.  My roommate screamed to turn that junk
off but it was my TV so Beefheart stayed.  The next morning I went out and
bought Doc at the Radar Station so that's always had a sentimental
attachment but my personal favorite is probably Shiny Beast (Bat Chain
Puller).  Of course the "masterpiece" is Trout Mask Replica which nobody on
this list should pass up but to be honest I pretty much think all of
Beefheart's albums are good (yes even the "pop" Bluejeans & Moonbeams and
Unconditionally Guaranteed though they certainly should be heard last out
of everything).  There's a Rhino double-CD career overview that looks
pretty decent.


Lang


Freedom Is Free Form
WFMU  http://wfmu.org
Fund Drive March 4 to 17

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Captain Beefheart
Date: 14 Mar 2002 19:32:19 -0800

on 3/14/02 7:05 PM, Lang Thompson at [e-mail] wrote:

>> I would like some recommendations on Capt Beefheart albums to check out
>> both as good starting places and personal favorites.  Thanks in advance.
>
TROUT MASK is everyone's fav, but I prefer the follow-up, LICK MY DECALS OFF
BABY, because the band is playing together intensely.

SAFE AS MILK is really great, too, although maybe not outski enough for
some, and ICE CREAM FOR CROW is about as formidable a late-period record as
anyone ever made.

skip h


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tosh <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Captain Beefheart
Date: 14 Mar 2002 20:17:17 -0800

Safe as Milk.  Great tunes, great voice, and great playing.  His
'masterpieces' leaves me cold, and I know so many who like 'the
masterpiece' but for personal reasons I think 'Safe as Milk' is as
good as music can be.
--
Tosh Berman
TamTam Books
http://www.tamtambooks.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: aesop quartet (was Re: ernest dawkins)
Date: 15 Mar 2002 01:43:51 EST


In a message dated 03.14.02 15.52.51, [e-mail] writes:

>Uh, okay, what is "backup slam-music"

music which does and would back up slam poetry...  sorry, i realise after
re-reading my sentence that it's beyond unclear in my typing...  go figure.

love,
  k8.




---
[.n0thing.is.what.is.sAid.]
k a t e  p e t e r s o n
c o m p o s e r / p e r f o r m e r

http://www.geocities.com/uforbk8/kate.html
http://www.icefoundation.org (roundtable)

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Andreas Dietz" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: aesop quartet (was Re: ernest dawkins)
Date: 15 Mar 2002 09:11:08 +0100

there┤s a label website with some mp3 samples:
www.8th-harmonic-breakdown.com/index.shtml

I haven┤t heard this project so far but will trying to get hold of this
item.

Andreas

np: Cinematic Orchestra - Motion

>In a message dated 03.14.02 11.01.53, [e-mail] writes:
>
> >I don't know how easy this will be to find, but there's a project called
> >the Aesop Quartet consisting of Dawkins, Rollo Radford on bass (Sun Ra,
>Corky
> >Seigel(?!)), Jeff Parker on guitar (Tortoise etc) and Hamid Drake on
>drums.
> >Some Chicago poet does some spoken word on a track, and DJ Rob Swift
>plays
> >turntable on a track as well.  it's on the 8th Harmonic Breakdown label,
> >and i thought it was pretty cool.


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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Bernie hotmail" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Captain Beefheart
Date: 15 Mar 2002 09:22:55 +0100

As a Captain Beffheart fan, I'd recommend you almost all his albums except
"Bluejeans & moonbeans", "Unconditionally guaranteed" & "Ice cream for
Crow".

So the list of my recommendations is the following:

Official Albums
==========
DOC AT THE RADAR STATION
LICK MY DECALS OFF, BABY
MIRROR MAN  (2 bonus tracks on CD)
SAFE AS MILK (6 bonus tracks on CD)
SHINY BEAST (BAT CHAIN PULLER)
STRICTLY PERSONAL
THE SPOTLIGHT KID / CLEAR SPOT
TROUT MASK REPLICA

Bootlegs & compilations
=================
CAPTAIN HOOK
I MAY BE HUNGRY BUT I SURE AIN'T WEIRD
IF YOU GOT EARS
THE EARLY YEARS 1959 1969

Bernie.

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, March 15, 2002 3:42 AM


> I would like some recommendations on Capt Beefheart albums to check out
> both as good starting places and personal favorites.  Thanks in advance.
>
> Zach
>
> -
>
>

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Magma
Date: 15 Mar 2002 09:53:08 +0100






> Do a lot of people on this list listen to Magma or other Zeuhl related
> bands?  If not, might I recommend getting a hold of the Magma albums 'Udu
> Wudu' ,'1001 Degres Centigrades' and 'K=F6hntark=F6sz'

Surely Kohntarkosz is one of the more outre prog-rock albums of the 1970s,
and comes heavily recommended. When I was at Disk Union in Tokyo, there was
a virtual Magma deification taking place, with Magma discs and parafernalia
on display all over the prog-rock department.

There seems to be a huge interest in prog-rock in Japan, whereas most people
in Europe (at least the self-proclaimed "avant-gardists") either loathe the
genre, or will only admit to liking Yes and King Crimson as a kind of guilty
pleasure.

> As far as other related bands to check out obviously The Ruins and Happy
> Family.  Also, the new Flying Luttenbachers album ('Infection and Decline')
> has a cover of 'De Futura' on it that is really amazing.

Ruins are amazing, but Tatsuya Yoshida has various other projects that are
even more Magma-influenced. Most prominent amongst these are Koenjihyakkei aka
Hundred Sights of Koenji (check out their amazing self-titled debut, which is
by far the best of their three releases so far), and Tairikuotoko vs. Sanmyakuonna,
whose "Viva Young Florida" album also comes highly recommended (if you can still
find it). It is silly at times, but when it grows on you it turns out to be an
excellent album.

I recently saw Ruins in The Hague at their sole concert in Holland before a crowd
of 60, and they were absolutely mind-bogglingly excellent. The musicianship is at a
level I have rarely seen before, yet the music has a complete punk feel to it at
times.

Are there any people on this list who are into the kind of prog-rock as evidenced
by Nordic bands like Anglagard, Anekdoten, and Morte Macabre (their ill-titled
"Symphonic Holocaust" album is my favorite soundtrack cover album of all time -
yes, folks, I like it better than Fantomas's "The Director's Cut"; only listen
to THEIR version of "Rosemary's Baby" to hear why).

Frankco
np: Cannibal Ox "The Cold Vein" (a-ma-zing)
nr: The Strugatsky Brothers "Roadside Picnic"




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeroen de Boer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: More metal
Date: 15 Mar 2002 11:29:27 +0100

> annoying. Are there any great, I mean really great, instrumental
> metal bands? I love Meshuggah, Morbid Angel, etc., but find I listen
> around the "cookie monster" vocals. I'm aware of stuff like Blind
> Idiot God, Don Caballero and the whole math-rock scene, and various
> other stuff, but what about true, ultra complex, ultra heavy metal?
> I'd love an instrumental remix of "chaosphere", for example.

Great complex metal with vocals, although unlike cookiemonster, is for
instance Spiral Architect, in my opinion one of the most innovative bands
around. In terms of complexity it's in the vein of Meshuggah and Watchtower.
Ron Jarzombek, Watchtower's guitarist, also has a soloproject named Spastic
Ink.: quite similar to Watchtower, although with more melody.

Another band worth mentioning is Aghora, a post-Cynic project. Their music
is a mixture of deathmetal and progressive rock with female vocals. Another
post-Cynic project, this time without vocals, is Gordian Knot. The music is
by Sean Malone, Cynic's bassplayer.

Jeroen


Jeroen de Boer
content director Cyberslag Content Providing
Damsterdiep 15  9711SG Groningen    The Netherlands

t   [phone]
m   [phone]
f   [phone]
[e-mail]

www.cyberslag.nl


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Bruno Bissonnette" <[e-mail]>
Subject: happy birthday to...
Date: 15 Mar 2002 08:45:57 -0500

Cecil Taylor, today March 15th.  The official year is somewhat debatable,
but one source I have states he'd be 69.  But who knows really...

It would also be Lightnin' Hopkins birthday, and Ry Cooder's.

Bruno

_________________________________________________________________
Join the worldÆs largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
http://www.hotmail.com


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: throw me a word problem. (was Re: More metal)
Date: 15 Mar 2002 09:25:09 EST


In a message dated 03.15.02 05.29.59, [e-mail] writes:

>I'm aware of stuff like Blind
>> Idiot God, Don Caballero and the whole math-rock scene,

hey people,

as resident hipster-record store-employee in st. louis, i really feel that i
need a decent definition of what 'math rock' is.  satan forbid that there be
any more stupid classifications within rock...  post-rock, alt-rock, anything
ending in -core, blah blah blah...  but this is one i really want to know the
freakin' meaning of.

thanks.

love,
  k8.




---
[.n0thing.is.what.is.sAid.]
k a t e  p e t e r s o n
c o m p o s e r / p e r f o r m e r

http://www.geocities.com/uforbk8/kate.html
http://www.icefoundation.org (roundtable)

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Maurice Rickard <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: throw me a word problem. (was Re: More metal)
Date: 15 Mar 2002 09:55:12 -0500

At 9:25 AM -0500 3/15/02, [e-mail] wrote:
>as resident hipster-record store-employee in st. louis, i really feel that i
>need a decent definition of what 'math rock' is.

Lots of unusual time signatures requiring that the whole band keep
count of where they are.  (Otherwise the whole "band changes gears on
a dime" effect is lost.)  While I guess you could imagine
twee-math-rock or something, it usually tends toward the heavier
side, showing those 70s prog roots.
--
Maurice Rickard
http://mauricerickard.com/

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Bruno Bissonnette" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Ground-Zero live video?
Date: 15 Mar 2002 10:22:44 -0500

I was looking around in the Japan Improv website and stumbled upon the
following information in an Otomo Yoshihide discography:

Ground Zero. Last Concert. Videocassette. Valve/Amoebic, AMO-VA-02, not yet
released.

Does anyone here know of any plans for this to be eventually released, or is
this just some old idea that was tossed around but was forgotten and will
never acutally happen?

Thanks,
Bruno

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Michael=20Gillham?= <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: More metal
Date: 15 Mar 2002 16:01:22 +0000 (GMT)

>Blind Idiot God
Not bad. Everything I've heard by them is "alright".

>Don Caballero
I like 'em alot. Good drummer, and he knows it...

>Watchtower.
FUCKING HELL! I can't believe Watchtower has been
brought up on the Zorn list! Ha Ha.

Incidentally, I don't mind Confessor.


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Everything you'll ever need on one web page
from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
http://uk.my.yahoo.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Michael=20Gillham?= <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Captain Beefheart
Date: 15 Mar 2002 16:04:28 +0000 (GMT)


Contary to popular opinion, my favourite album is
"Strictly Personal".



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From: "s~Z" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Captain Beefheart
Date: 15 Mar 2002 08:19:26 -0800

As a Captain Beffheart fan, I'd recommend you almost all his
albums except
"Bluejeans & moonbeans", "Unconditionally guaranteed" & "Ice cream
for
Crow".

Do not miss Ice Cream For Crow. Otherwise agreed.




-



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From: David Beardsley <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Captain Beefheart
Date: 15 Mar 2002 11:25:47 -0500

----- Original Message -----


> As a Captain Beffheart fan, I'd recommend you almost all his
> albums except
> "Bluejeans & moonbeans", "Unconditionally guaranteed" & "Ice cream
> for
> Crow".
>
> Do not miss Ice Cream For Crow. Otherwise agreed.

ICFC is a great album. One of his best.


* David Beardsley
* http://biink.com
* http://mp3.com/davidbeardsley




-



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From: nme <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: throw me a word problem. (was Re: More metal)
Date: 15 Mar 2002 09:04:54 -0800 (PST)

Also, you spend a lot of time figuring out Least Common Multiples when the piece is being written.

I have no idea where the line between math and prog is drawn, but it seems that math-rock is used
to describe prog-rock made by and 'indie' band.


-nathan





--- Maurice Rickard <[e-mail]> wrote:
> At 9:25 AM -0500 3/15/02, [e-mail] wrote:
> >as resident hipster-record store-employee in st. louis, i really feel that i
> >need a decent definition of what 'math rock' is.
>
> Lots of unusual time signatures requiring that the whole band keep
> count of where they are.  (Otherwise the whole "band changes gears on
> a dime" effect is lost.)  While I guess you could imagine
> twee-math-rock or something, it usually tends toward the heavier
> side, showing those 70s prog roots.
> --
> Maurice Rickard
> http://mauricerickard.com/
>
> -
>


=====
"Are you amplified to rock?
Are you hoping for a contact?"  -GbV

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From: nme <[e-mail]>
Subject: Gamelan (NZC)
Date: 15 Mar 2002 09:12:56 -0800 (PST)

I know someone was looking for Gamelan music recently.

Cdbaby.com has a cd by the Schubert Club's (St Paul, MN) Gamelan ensemble.  You can listen before
you buy at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/schubertclub .


-nathan

=====
"Are you amplified to rock?
Are you hoping for a contact?"  -GbV

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - live college hoops coverage
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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Maurice Rickard <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: throw me a word problem. (was Re: More metal)
Date: 15 Mar 2002 12:13:30 -0500

At 9:04 AM -0800 3/15/02, nme wrote:
>I have no idea where the line between math and prog is drawn, but it
>seems that math-rock is used
>to describe prog-rock made by and 'indie' band.

That seems fair enough.  And math-rock tends to be instrumental, as
opposed to having the D&D imagery of prog.

Now, of course, I'm kind of intrigued by the twee-math-rock concept...
--
Maurice Rickard
http://mauricerickard.com/

-



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From: Dave Trenkel <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Captain Beefheart
Date: 15 Mar 2002 09:24:58 -0800

At 9:42 PM -0500 3/14/2002, &c. wrote:
>I would like some recommendations on Capt Beefheart albums to check out
>both as good starting places and personal favorites.  Thanks in advance.
>
>Zach
>
>-
You'll probably hear this echoed a hundred times, but Trout Mask
Replica is, IMHO, one of the all-time essential records, any artist,
any genre, period.
--
Dave Trenkel                                New and Improv Music
http://www.newandimprov.com         [e-mail]


-



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: progressive rock
Date: 15 Mar 2002 12:21:15 EST

>Are there any people on this list who are into the >kind of prog-rock as
>evidenced
>by Nordic bands like Anglagard, Anekdoten, and >Morte Macabre

Sure I like all this stuff.
Have seen Anekdoten a number of times, and they were once pretty good, and the other 2-3 times, they were fantastic.

afaik, Morte Macabre is a studio project only; I don't think they ever played a gig.

There's lots, lots more of this stuff out there. You might even want to try some of the sound clips on our website
www.cuneiformrecords.com

I suggest you start with Nebelnest, & see if that does it for you...

Steve

-



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Magma
Date: 15 Mar 2002 12:23:09 EST

In a message dated 3/14/02 1:16:07 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< No! Magma IS! Not WAS! They still exist and are quite active! >>

Even though, like The Who, The Stones, and Black Sabbath, every tour they go
on is supposedly their "last" tour.

--
=dg=

-



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From: Richard Gardner <[e-mail]>
Subject:  Subject: Re: Captain Beefheart
Date: 15 Mar 2002 17:56:54 +0000

With this renewed interest in the good Captain. This month's UK magazine
Mojo has a recent bizarre telephone conversation between Don and Bono.

Of far more interest Mojo also carries an advert for a new Beefheart and the
Magic Band album called Dust Sucker which will include: some of the original
mixes of Shiny Beast i.e. the proper Bat Chain Puller album (which was only
around for a very brief time due to WB and Virgin contractual battles)
unreleased tracks from that session including five live versions, Well Well,
Well featuring Rockette Morton (also interviewed in the same magazine) and a
live festival version of My Human Gets Me Blues. UK release date is Monday.

Richard Gardner


-



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From: "Andrew" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: throw me a word problem. (was Re: More metal)
Date: 15 Mar 2002 13:28:02 -0500

> as resident hipster-record store-employee in st. louis, i really feel that
i
> need a decent definition of what 'math rock' is.  satan forbid that there
be
> any more stupid classifications within rock...  post-rock, alt-rock,
anything
> ending in -core, blah blah blah...  but this is one i really want to know
the
> freakin' meaning of.


C'mon, Kate; Math Rock has been around since Polvo, if not before. From the
usually cluless all music guide:

"Math Rock is a relation to post-rock, a better known indie-rock style that
shares similar aesthetics. Where post-rock has distinct jazz influences,
math rock is the opposite side of the same coin - it's dense and complex,
filled with difficult time signatures and intertwining phrases. Also, the
style is a little more rockist than post-rock, since it's usually played by
small, guitar-led bands. Math rock peaked in the mid-'90s, when groups like
Polvo and Chavez had small, dedicated followings among indie rockers on
collegiate campuses."

In other words, mathy stuff has "weird" time signatures, start-stop
dynamics, and usually finds the band locking into jarring, angular grooves.
Modern stuff like US Maple has eschewed the whole "indie" side of the sound,
whereas many post-hardcore bands have also appropriated mathy ideas.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Kim, Pei-Yi" <[e-mail]>
Subject: -- Rope @ Tonic last night (low zc) --
Date: 15 Mar 2002 16:42:42 -0500

Dear Folks,

    Hope this message finds all in good spirits and music.

    Last night I headed into the city to check out Erik Friedlander's
Rope, with bassist Hill Greene on upright and Satoshi Takeishi on
percussion. Although I missed about 30mins of the set, what I experienced
was nothing less than fantastic:

    Rope was different than I expected -- very nice free improv within
the frameworks of each of the three musicians' individual styles -- they
were meshing quite nicely, too. Friedlander was technically brilliant: I saw
him pull some tricks/effects off that cello I did not think possible (like
first time seeing Zorn on the sax) -- very sweet. At one point in the set he
teased a bit of Nostalgia I from Filmworks X, so I'm sure other compositions
(which I'm too ignorant to recognize) were also inundated. And Satoshi
Takeishi (heard him once before and committed the name to memory --- so so
amazing!) was very soulful and rhythmic. Sounds like he studied some African
rhythms and also Indian music. I dug his participation lots; it was
delicious. Hill Greene was not weak in his contribution in the least.
Besides role-reversals with Friedlander from time to time (main voice vs
rhythm section), during the heart of a couple tunes he would bust out with
some vocal roars and chants that can only come from the heart. It was
definitely worth checking out. Can't wait till the next time they get
together.

    I was very glad to have caught that. A real treat. If they added
special guests, like piano or maybe sax, into the mix, that will surely kick
things around a bit more, too. But the trio was definitely an ear-ful
already.

    Appreciating life,
    Pei-Yi

NP: Frank Kimbrough Trio - Chant (Igmod)





-



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: throw me a word problem. (was Re: More metal)
Date: 15 Mar 2002 17:54:07 EST

so is polvo math rock?

k8.

-



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: throw me a word problem. (was Re: More metal)
Date: 15 Mar 2002 19:29:34 EST

In a message dated Fri, 15 Mar 2002  5:55:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, [e-mail] writes:

> so is polvo math rock?
>
> k8.
>
> -

I think they're classified emo over math rock.

--
=dg=

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ricardo Reis <[e-mail]>
Subject: win a Naked City minidisc!
Date: 16 Mar 2002 10:04:30 +0000 (WET)


    Hi folks! A tape with naked city live, here at lisbon, in 1990
just arrived to my hands. I'm able to put it in minidisc but would like to
have a CD version of it. so, if any of you is able to make a minidisc to
cd transfer and is willing to do it for me i would send in the minidisc in
exchange of a cd version of it. preference is made on european community
zornlisters because of post rates.

            greets,
                 Ricardo Reis

                "Non Serviam"


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Alan Lankin <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: throw me a word problem. (was Re: More metal)
Date: 16 Mar 2002 09:40:44 -0500

Calculus rock never really caught on.  Most musicians just couldn't do
differentials in their heads.

nme wrote:

> Also, you spend a lot of time figuring out Least Common Multiples when the piece is being written.
>
> I have no idea where the line between math and prog is drawn, but it seems that math-rock is used
> to describe prog-rock made by and 'indie' band.
>
>
> -nathan
>



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Michael=20Gillham?= <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: win a Naked City minidisc!
Date: 16 Mar 2002 17:17:51 +0000 (GMT)


I'm in England.

I can do it, but if you there's someone closer to
where you are who can, it'd probably be easier for you
to arrange something with them.

But I can do it...

[e-mail]




-- Ricardo Reis <[e-mail]> wrote: >
>     Hi folks! A tape with naked city live, here at
> lisbon, in 1990
> just arrived to my hands. I'm able to put it in
> minidisc but would like to
> have a CD version of it. so, if any of you is able
> to make a minidisc to
> cd transfer and is willing to do it for me i would
> send in the minidisc in
> exchange of a cd version of it. preference is made
> on european community
> zornlisters because of post rates.
>
>             greets,
>                  Ricardo Reis
>
>                 "Non Serviam"
>
>
> -
>

__________________________________________________
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from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: throw me a word problem. (was Re: More metal)
Date: 16 Mar 2002 12:45:08 EST


In a message dated 03.16.02 09.42.17, [e-mail] writes:

>Calculus rock never really caught on.  Most musicians just couldn't do
>differentials in their heads.


i would also be willing to bet that this is why 99.99999% of all fractal
music sounds like complete doodie...

love,
 k8.

---
[.n0thing.is.what.is.sAid.]
k a t e  p e t e r s o n
c o m p o s e r / p e r f o r m e r

http://www.geocities.com/uforbk8/kate.html
http://www.icefoundation.org (roundtable)

-



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From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: FW: R.I.P. Shirley Scott
Date: 16 Mar 2002 10:04:34 -0800

for those who don't know:


Shirley Scott, Performer Known as the Queen of the Organ, Dies at 67
from NY TIMES
March 16, 2002

Shirley Scott, a jazz organist who recorded dozens of albums from the 1950's
to the 90's, earning her the nickname "Queen of the Organ," died on Sunday
at a hospital in Philadelphia. She was 67 and lived in West Chester, Pa.

The cause was heart disease brought on by the diet drug known as fen-phen,
said Everett Yancey, her son.

Ms. Scott had sued both American Home Products, now known as Wyeth, the
manufacturer of one of the drug's components, and the doctor who prescribed
it to her. In February 2000 a Philadelphia jury awarded her $8 million.

She had begun using fen-phen in 1995 and within two years developed
extensive heart and lung problems, Mr. Yancey said..

Ms. Scott emerged in the mid- 1950's, the golden age of Hammond B3 organ
jazz, with a quick, punchy sound that merged bebop, gospel and the blues.
She had a lighter touch than Jimmy Smith, the leading organist in jazz, and
relied on the blues less heavily than he did. In her groups with the
saxophonists Eddie Davis, known as Lockjaw, and Stanley Turrentine, to whom
she was married for a number of years, Ms. Scott produced some of the most
influential recordings in the smoother, more pop-oriented soul-jazz style.

Her recorded output was great, with more than 50 albums as a leader to her
credit, most on the Prestige and Impulse labels. Her first recordings were
with Davis, and she played with him on a number of classics, including his
"Cookbook" albums and the 1958 hit song "In the Kitchen."

In 1960 she married Turrentine and made a number of albums with him over the
next decade, including "Soul Shoutin'," "Blue Flames" and "Hip Soul." Their
music together was often intense, but Ms. Scott also recorded plenty of
easygoing tracks, often including show tunes and pop covers like the
Beatles' "Can't Buy Me Love."

A lifelong Philadelphian, Ms. Scott continued to play clubs in the city into
the 90's, though she eventually switched to piano.

In the 90's she also began teaching jazz history and piano at Cheyney
University in Cheyney, Pa., and worked as the musical director for Bill
Cosby's short-lived television quiz show, "You Bet Your Life."

In addition to Mr. Yancey, of Philadelphia, she is survived by her son
Thomas, also of Philadelphia; three daughters, Lisa Turrentine, of West
Chester, Pa., and Pamela and Nicole Turrentine, of Philadelphia; nine
grandchildren; and two great-grandchildren.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dave Trenkel <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: throw me a word problem. (was Re: More metal)
Date: 16 Mar 2002 11:22:08 -0800

>Calculus rock never really caught on.  Most musicians just couldn't
>do differentials in their heads.

A drummer friend came up with the idea that what get's called Math
Rock is actually Arithmetic Rock it's all about addition and
subtraction of beats. Calculus Rock would be about beats that speed
up and slow down.

>
>nme wrote:
>
>>Also, you spend a lot of time figuring out Least Common Multiples
>>when the piece is being written.
>>
>>I have no idea where the line between math and prog is drawn, but
>>it seems that math-rock is used
>>to describe prog-rock made by and 'indie' band.
>>
>>
>>-nathan
>>
>
>
>
>-


--
Dave Trenkel                                New and Improv Music
http://www.newandimprov.com         [e-mail]


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Philippe Dupuis <[e-mail]>
Subject: Strange records
Date: 16 Mar 2002 15:49:25 -0500

Hello,

A local run down video store has started stocking some
cd's and I've run by some really surprising records.

There's a bunch, so I was wondering if anyone could
say if any of these are good. I'm a bit lost and don't know
what to pick up.

LEWIS, GEORGE: Voyager
HYLA, LEE: In Double Light
OSWALD, JOHN: Plexure
PIGPEN: V as in Victim
PREVITE, BOBBY: Slay the Suitors
ARCADO STRING TRIO: Live In Europe
BAPTISTA, CYRO: Villa Lobos Vira Loucos

Real Time One: an Ictus reissue with Evan Parker
Iwontinnwonsi: Cecil taylor
Utopia Americana: bunch of american artists inc Zorn
Art Ensemble of Chicago : Naked

A BUNCH of DIW (label) stuff with japanese borders
on the disks ... John Patton, tlots of stuff from this guy
called David Murray ... some Avant titles that I don't
really recognize off the bat. Sainko: Naked Spirit. Lots
of records off this italian label New Tone Records ...

Any kind of help would be appreciated!!!
Martin Dupuis




-



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From: "Caleb T. Deupree" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Strange records
Date: 16 Mar 2002 18:09:24 -0500

At 03:49 PM 3/16/02 -0500, Philippe Dupuis wrote:
>
>A local run down video store has started stocking some
>cd's and I've run by some really surprising records.
>
>OSWALD, JOHN: Plexure

Zorn commissioned John Oswald, creator of Plunderphonics, for this Avant
Records release.  It's my favorite Oswald, 1000 of our favorite 80s rock
tunes run through the blender.  Be warned that it's very short (~20 min),
but feels like a perfect length to me.  If you don't know Oswald's work,
you can read about him at http://www.plunderphonics.com.

>BAPTISTA, CYRO: Villa Lobos Vira Loucos

I like this one too, but haven't listened to it in a while.  Baptista put
together a group that includes Ribot and Greg Cohen plus a second guitarist
Romero Lubambo and accordionist Chango Spasluk, with Zorn, Nana Vasconcelos
and others guesting on a few cuts.  Although the cover says that they play
music of Villa Lobos, only half the tracks are written by the prolific
Brazilian composer, the rest by Baptista.  Villa Lobos was a significant
modern composer from Brazil, most well known for his guitar works, and his
love of the dance and folk music comes through in most of his pieces.
--

Caleb Deupree
[e-mail]

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Strange records
Date: 16 Mar 2002 18:28:11 -0500 (EST)

Phillipe:

Voyager is a fine electronics and trombone session,
joined by Roscoe Mitchell on some tracks.

Arcado String Trio is/was Mark Dresser (b); Mark
Feldman (vi) and either Hank Roberst or Ernest
Reijinger (cello). I have another of its discs which
is quite good.

Real Time One: an Ictus reissue with Evan Parker is EP
being EP, but interacting with an Italian
percussionist

Iwontinnwonsi: Cecil Taylor: het it's Cecil how can
you go wrong?

The DIW John Patten has Zorn on it, I think. I've
heard though that it's not as good as his earlier
stuff --which I like -- on Blue Note

David Murray has made many, many CDs. Some of the good
ones are on DIW. Another expert could tell you which.

Just as a matter of interest, where are you located?
Montreal?

Hope this helps.

Ken Waxman


--- Philippe Dupuis <[e-mail]> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> A local run down video store has started stocking
> some
> cd's and I've run by some really surprising records.
>
> There's a bunch, so I was wondering if anyone could
> say if any of these are good. I'm a bit lost and
> don't know
> what to pick up.
>
> LEWIS, GEORGE: Voyager
> HYLA, LEE: In Double Light
> OSWALD, JOHN: Plexure
> PIGPEN: V as in Victim
> PREVITE, BOBBY: Slay the Suitors
> ARCADO STRING TRIO: Live In Europe
> BAPTISTA, CYRO: Villa Lobos Vira Loucos
>
> Real Time One: an Ictus reissue with Evan Parker
> Iwontinnwonsi: Cecil taylor
> Utopia Americana: bunch of american artists inc Zorn
> Art Ensemble of Chicago : Naked
>
> A BUNCH of DIW (label) stuff with japanese borders
> on the disks ... John Patton, tlots of stuff from
> this guy called David Murray ... some Avant titles
that I don't really recognize off the bat. Sainko:
Naked Spirit. Lots of records off this italian label
New Tone Records
>
> Any kind of help would be appreciated!!!
> Martin Dupuis


=====
Ken Waxman
[e-mail]
www.jazzword.com - Jazz/improv news, CD reviews and photos

______________________________________________________________________
Find, Connect, Date! http://personals.yahoo.ca

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Cameron Wood" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Aniara (nzc)
Date: 16 Mar 2002 16:01:34 -0800

Hi there,
Sorry about this totally off topic post, but I'm searching for info on something and I thought this list'd be the best place. Does anyone out there have a recording of Karl-Birger Blomdahl's opera Aniara?
I bought an old record of the 2001 soundtrack a while ago, and the second side of the record contains 'highlights' from this opera.
It's performed by the orchestra of the Vienna Volksoper conducted by Werner Janssen if that helps. Can anyone provide info on where to find a decent quality (CD) recording of this, or any more info?
Thanks heaps, email me off list.
Later,
Cameron.

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Hundreds of choices. It's free!
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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: florid oratory <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: calculus rock
Date: 16 Mar 2002 16:45:00 -0800

one could argue that the nested tuplets of Zappa's most complex music is as
close as rock will get to calculus.....

G C

> From: [e-mail] (Zorn List Digest)

>> Calculus rock never really caught on.  Most musicians just couldn't
>> do differentials in their heads.
>
> A drummer friend came up with the idea that what get's called Math
> Rock is actually Arithmetic Rock it's all about addition and
> subtraction of beats. Calculus Rock would be about beats that speed
> up and slow down.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Brent Fariss" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Eric Qin
Date: 17 Mar 2002 01:47:35

I was going through my cd collection the other day and came across the Rough
Assemblege cd on Avant.  Does anyone remember that one?  The liner notes
mention a full cd of the music of Eric Qin that was in the works.  Does
anyone know what has come of the project?  Are the any cd's of his music
available?

thanks.

brent

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>
Subject: ethiopiques
Date: 17 Mar 2002 03:58:07 +0000

Has anyone been collecting this series from Buda Musique?  How are they?
Any favorites thus far?  And is there a reasonably cheap place to buy them
rather than Other Music?  Thanks.



_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Japanese Independent Music--book
Date: 17 Mar 2002 04:06:44 +0000

I bought this recently and have been pretty impressed with the discographies
of Japanese music.  Most of the text is a large dictionary of Japanese
music, but there are a few essays at the beginning.  The accompanying CD is
quite nice as well with music samples from Yuko Nexus 6, Haino Keiji, Hoppy
Kamiyama, KK Null, Nakamura & Sachiko M from a live date in Bordeaux, Haco,
the Ruins, and an excellent piece by Acid Mothers Temple.  The CD is 76
minutes in length and the whole package is put out by Sonore in France for
about $33 US.  Available at DMG when I ordered about two months ago.  Other
comments?

On a similar note, did anyone pick up the DIW releases of Abe and Takayangi
last year, Gradually and Mass Projection?  I'd be curious as to opinions of
Smith, Waxman, Chamberlain, or the Braxton scholars.  I thought these were
powerful recordings, not unlike the Brotzmann/Sharrock collaborations.



_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: mike patton (low zc).
Date: 17 Mar 2002 02:30:41 EST

hey alls ya'lls...

i was wondering if someone (or anyone, or everyone) would brief me on the two
solo patton releases?  i am particularly interested in the just him vocal
album, being that i love abject guttural noises.  i have a veritable conflict
of interest in gathering opinion, since i am obsessive about crazy vocal
technique (and mike patton, but that's another story) but am simultaneously
dismayed that there is a recent huge feature in a Magazine Which Shall Remain
Unnamed about mike patton.

lemme know the deal.

thanks!

love,
  k8.



---
[.n0thing.is.what.is.sAid.]
k a t e  p e t e r s o n
c o m p o s e r / p e r f o r m e r

http://www.geocities.com/uforbk8/kate.html
http://www.icefoundation.org (roundtable)

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: re: Mike Patton
Date: 17 Mar 2002 02:49:49 EST

Speaking of Patton's solo album of just him, I saw him do it live at Tonic in
October.  It was incredible and any attempt for me to put it to words would
be a waste.  It made the cd sound like a bunch of crap.  However, there was a
girl videotaping the show.  If anyone knows if this video can somehow be
obtained, please let me know.  I would love to have this show on tape, even
if it was just the audio.

Also, one funny moment of the evening:
Pattons lying on the floor screaming, making sounds and doing what he does.
The vein in his neck that looks the Alien is popping out while I turn to the
side and see a bum from outside looking into the window of the club with a
look of "What the hell is going on in there?" on his face.  Maybe you had to
be there, but I thought it was funny.

Seth

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ronald Hiznay <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Calculus Rock
Date: 17 Mar 2002 06:17:01 -0800 (PST)

>A drummer friend came up with the idea that what
>get's called Math
>Rock is actually Arithmetic Rock it's all about
>adition and
>subtraction of beats. Calculus Rock would be about
>beats that speed
>up and slow down.


That would be Differential Calculus Rock, relating to
the rates of change of the music, there would then
have to be another school of Integral Calculus Rock in
which the area under the notes(rather than the notes
themselves) would be most important.


mushmush


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - live college hoops coverage
http://sports.yahoo.com/

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Efr=E9n_del_Valle?= <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: mike patton (low zc).
Date: 16 Mar 2002 23:48:03 +0100

Hi,

I heard "Adult Themes for Voice" and I remember I enjoyed it quite a lot. It
was recorded during a tour (with FNM I think) mostly in hotel rooms and
probably directly to 4-track- If I recall, the sound quality was not exactly
superb. If you are interested in gutural noises, you'll find the whole gamut
here.

"Pranzo Oltranzista" is quite another thing. I was listening to it yesterday
and, well, I'm a Patton-fanatic but there are some things I can't swallow,
and Pranzo is one of them. It's mainly sound effects and pretty noisy, but
there are some great moments, like the first track, "Elettricitα
Atmospheriche Candite" and "I Rumori Rugienti", which is the sound of an
engine and John Zorn playing really soft on top. Other than that, don't
expect too much substance. A guy recommended it to me and told me it was
really influenced by Zorn's "Elegy", but I'm still looking for similarities.

Best,

EfrΘn del Valle
n.p: Bob Dylan: "Highway 61 Revisited"




> hey alls ya'lls...
>
> i was wondering if someone (or anyone, or everyone) would brief me on the
two
> solo patton releases?  i am particularly interested in the just him vocal
> album, being that i love abject guttural noises.  i have a veritable
conflict
> of interest in gathering opinion, since i am obsessive about crazy vocal
> technique (and mike patton, but that's another story) but am
simultaneously
> dismayed that there is a recent huge feature in a Magazine Which Shall
Remain
> Unnamed about mike patton.
>
> lemme know the deal.
>
> thanks!
>
> love,
>   k8.
>
>
>
> ---
> [.n0thing.is.what.is.sAid.]
> k a t e  p e t e r s o n
> c o m p o s e r / p e r f o r m e r
>
> http://www.geocities.com/uforbk8/kate.html
> http://www.icefoundation.org (roundtable)
>
> -



_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Franz Fuchs" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Ben Watson's book about Derek Bailey
Date: 17 Mar 2002 21:59:25 +0100

A seemingly up-to-date account of this project:

http://www.militantesthetix.co.uk/bailey/quartet.htm

<Quote>
After the book is published Ben is planning to put full transcripts of
his heated and hilarious interviews with Bailey online.
<Quote>

Sounds promising...

Regards
Franz Fuchs

JFLT*: CD1/Studio of the Anthony Braxton's "Willisau (Quartet) 1991".
Holy dissonance, isn't this great?

*Just Finished Listening To


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Ricardo=20Campillo?= <[e-mail]>
Subject: Teiji Ito
Date: 18 Mar 2002 00:01:32 +0100 (CET)

Someone knows if Teiji Ito was made a record or if
exists a recording of his music?
I only heard his music on the films of Maya Deren, but
I want more.
Thanks in advance.
Regards for everyone.

_______________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Messenger
Comunicaci≤n instantßnea gratis con tu gente.
http://messenger.yahoo.es

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jim Flannery <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Teiji Ito
Date: 17 Mar 2002 15:16:40 -0800

Ricardo Campillo wrote:

> Someone knows if Teiji Ito was made a record or if
> exists a recording of his music?

The only release I'm familiar with is a CD released by =BFWhat=20
Next?/Nonsequitur in 1997, that included the scores for _Meshes_ and=20
_Very Eye of Night_, along with _Axis Mundi_, a score for a theatre=20
piece from 1982; according to the liner notes, he did a lot of work for=20
the Living Theatre, and did soundtracks for Marie Menken, Willard Maas,=20
Ed Emschwiller, "and others".

It'd certainly be nice </hint> to see some of those other recordings=20
released; if I'm reading the notes correctly, they're preserved in the=20
archives of the New York Public Library, and Guy Klucevsek seems to have=20
been involved in the logging of the original tapes.

--=20
Jim Flannery                                          [e-mail]

         "Unexamined assumptions and axioms can be collected the
          way one might collect stamps."
                                                 -- James Elkins
np: Bardo Pond, _Vol. 3_
nr: Philip K. Dick, _The Dark Haired Girl_


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Lang Thompson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Teiji Ito
Date: 17 Mar 2002 18:33:03 -0500

>The only release I'm familiar with is a CD released by =BFWhat=20
>Next?/Nonsequitur in 1997, that included the scores for _Meshes_ and=20

Plus the Tzadik release of King Ubu.

LT

Freedom Is Free Form
WFMU  http://wfmu.org
Fund Drive March 4 to 17

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Hugo Linares" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Ken Vandermark
Date: 17 Mar 2002 21:41:29 -0300

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_003B_01C1CDFC.7F8108A0
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi folks,

A friend of mine is "desperately" looking for Ken Vandermark's Funky-Do =
when he was a member of "The Crown Royals".

Any information where to get it? On-line stores or something?

Thanks in advance.

Hugo Linares
NP: Jean-Michel Pilc Trio _Together live at Sweet Basil - Vol.2_  (A =
Records)





------=_NextPart_000_003B_01C1CDFC.7F8108A0
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2014.210" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>Hi folks,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>A friend of mine is "desperately" looking for Ken Vandermark's =

Funky-Do when he was a member of "The Crown Royals".</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Any information where to get it? On-line stores or something?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Thanks in advance.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Hugo Linares</DIV>
<DIV>NP: Jean-Michel Pilc Trio _Together live at Sweet Basil - =
Vol.2_  (A=20
Records)</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><BR><BR> </DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_003B_01C1CDFC.7F8108A0--


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Julian" <[e-mail]>
Subject: jmt
Date: 18 Mar 2002 23:39:49 +1100

Hey folks, saw a handful of JMT reissues today, just curious whether anyone
has or can point me to a schedule of which albums are being reissued and
when?


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Sean Westergaard" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: ethiopiques
Date: 18 Mar 2002 08:49:23 -0500



>Has anyone been collecting this series from Buda Musique?  How are they?
>Any favorites thus far?  And is there a reasonably cheap place to buy them
>rather than Other Music?  Thanks.

I've got the first seven volumes, and I've heard thru vol. 9.  not a clinker
in the bunch, although I'm at work now and couldn't really name my favorites
off hand.  as for purchasing, you might try their US distributor, Allegro
Music.

http://www.allegro-music.com/


you can become a "member" for free, and get stuff at 20% off.  I recently
picked up what must have been the last copy of the Raga Guide from them.

sean





-



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "patbor" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Cuong Vu content
Date: 18 Mar 2002 09:30:28 -0500

Hello,

which are the main differences in sound

and composition between

Cuong Vu's "come play with me"

(which I have listened to) and

his latest work "bound"?

Thanks
PatB

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Steve Smith" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Aniara (nzc)
Date: 18 Mar 2002 11:32:08 -0500

There was a CD release of Blomdahl's complete opera released by the Swedish
label Caprice many years ago (early CD era), I'm pretty sure. But it's not
listed at Amazon or any of the usual suspects I turn to for rare/deleted
classical (broinc.com, cybermusicsurplus.com, gemm.com - the latter had a
copy of your '2001' LP, though). There are a handful of other releases
featuring music by Blomdahl on other labels like Bis, but none as trippy as
'Aniara.'

Caprice has a website at http://www.caprice.rikskonserter.se/Eng/index.htm.
The search engine doesn't seem to be working this morning, but at the very
least you might be able to shoot them off an e-mail inquiring about the
availability of remaindered copies.

Don't ask me to describe it in detail, though - I haven't heard it since
college!

Steve Smith
[e-mail]

-----Original Message-----
[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Cameron Wood
Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2002 7:02 PM

Sorry about this totally off topic post, but I'm searching for info on
something and I thought this list'd be the best place. Does anyone out there
have a recording of Karl-Birger Blomdahl's opera Aniara?
I bought an old record of the 2001 soundtrack a while ago, and the second
side of the record contains 'highlights' from this opera.
It's performed by the orchestra of the Vienna Volksoper conducted by Werner
Janssen if that helps. Can anyone provide info on where to find a decent
quality (CD) recording of this, or any more info?


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Steve Smith" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Japanese Independent Music--book
Date: 18 Mar 2002 11:00:12 -0500

The comparison to Brotzmann and Sharrock is appropriate, but I hear these as
being even more unhinged and dangerous. Abe is damn near uncontainable. The
whole thing is so overwhelming and abrasive; I'm glad I've got 'em, but I
can't imagine pulling them out that often.

Steve Smith
[e-mail]

-----Original Message-----
[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Bill Ashline
Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2002 11:07 PM

On a similar note, did anyone pick up the DIW releases of Abe and Takayangi
last year, Gradually and Mass Projection?  I'd be curious as to opinions of
Smith, Waxman, Chamberlain, or the Braxton scholars.  I thought these were
powerful recordings, not unlike the Brotzmann/Sharrock collaborations.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Theo Klaase <[e-mail]>
Subject: Melvins - Stag
Date: 18 Mar 2002 08:37:00 -0800 (PST)

   I've been trying to buy "Stag" from the Melvins but
it appears that it's unavailable everywhere I look on
the net.  Suggestions?

E-mail me privately, thank you...

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - live college hoops coverage
http://sports.yahoo.com/

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Teiji Ito
Date: 18 Mar 2002 09:09:55 -0800


On Sun, 17 Mar 2002 18:33:03 -0500  Lang Thompson wrote:
>
> >The only release I'm familiar with is a CD released by ┐What
> >Next?/Nonsequitur in 1997, that included the scores for _Meshes_ and
>
> Plus the Tzadik release of King Ubu.

Definitely not a record to overlook! The record on Nonsequitur got reissued
on O.O. Discs:


*** - MESHES - MUSIC FOR THEATRE & FILM: Teiji Ito

    1999 - O.O. Discs (USA), ??? (CD)


Talking about Klucevsek/Ito, I can't remember where I heard that one of his
record would feature compositions by:

  John Zorn, Pauline Oliveros, Lois V. Vierk, Teiji Ito, Johann Strauss, Guy
  Klucevsek

I thought it was for BLUE WINDOW, but the compositions selected on that record
are different:

  John Zorn, Pauline Oliveros, Lois V. Vierk, Guy Klucevsek

    Needless to say, if somebody can shed some light on this enigma.

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Steve Smith" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Cuong Vu content
Date: 18 Mar 2002 12:20:55 -0500

'Bound' was actually recorded and issued before 'Come Play With Me' (and
'Pure,' the previous trio release on Knitting Factory). It's more
conventionally and tightly constructed, less ethereal and wandering, and
certainly less electronically-oriented, even though it boasts Jamie Saft's
keyboards (mostly piano and Fender Rhodes). Jim Black is the spark plug,
Stomu's the engine room, and Cuong even sings on one of the tunes in a
light, clear voice which I like very, very much - it's probably why Metheny
just hired him. Recorded sound is excellent, as usual for the OmniTone
label - much clearer than the Knit discs, which are purposefully diffuse and
sort of ambient.

Steve Smith
[e-mail]

-----Original Message-----
[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of patbor
Sent: Monday, March 18, 2002 9:30 AM

which are the main differences in sound

and composition between

Cuong Vu's "come play with me"

(which I have listened to) and

his latest work "bound"?


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Steve Smith" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Sylvian Mash?
Date: 18 Mar 2002 12:27:24 -0500

Out of sheer curiosity, does anyone know how Zony Mash's Tim Young and Keith
Lowe came be to be part of David Sylvian's backing band on his upcoming
North American tour in April and May?

Steve Smith
[e-mail]


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Sean Westergaard" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Sylvian Mash?
Date: 18 Mar 2002 12:24:04 -0500

my best guess would be a recommendation from fellow Seattle-ite Bill Frisell
who particpated on the last Sylvian project.  I'm pretty sure Frisell has a
group that includes Keith Lowe.  they certainly know each other thru
Horvitz.

sean

-----Original Message-----
[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Monday, March 18, 2002 12:27 PM


Out of sheer curiosity, does anyone know how Zony Mash's Tim Young and Keith
Lowe came be to be part of David Sylvian's backing band on his upcoming
North American tour in April and May?

Steve Smith
[e-mail]


-



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "PHILIP  PLENCNER" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Ken Vandermark
Date: 18 Mar 2002 12:09:55 -0600


Hugo Linares Wrote:
> Hi folks,
>
> A friend of mine is "desperately" looking for Ken Vandermark's Funky-Do =
> when he was a member of "The Crown Royals".
>
> Any information where to get it? On-line stores or something?

You can order is straight off of Estrus Records website. It's the label that
released the CD:
http://www.estrus.com/

Phil




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ricardo Reis <[e-mail]>
Subject: music catalogue program (NZC)
Date: 18 Mar 2002 18:32:40 +0000 (WET)


Hi!

    I'm looking for a program o catalogue my sound artefacts (CDs,
LPs, so on...). anyone has sugestions?

            greets,

                 Ricardo Reis

                "Non Serviam"


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Scott Menhinick <[e-mail]>
Subject: Ran Blake Accepting Students
Date: 18 Mar 2002 13:32:36 +0000


--------------8CCFA3F94459FD07588C7C81
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit


Ran Blake Is Accepting New Students
Veteran Boston-based pianist and educator Ran Blake is now accepting
private students in the areas of ear training, Jazz piano, accompaniment
for other semi-improvised music, development of personal musical style,
and instrumental improvisation.  These studies, with the obvious
exception of jazz piano, are open to musicians of all instruments and
styles and held in Blakeφs studio in Brookline, Massachusetts.

About Ran Blake
Ran Blake is currently celebrating 35 years at New England Conservatory,
where he has been Chair of the Third Stream/Contemporary Improvisation
Department since its inception in 1973.  Believing music is
traditionally taught by the wrong sense, his innovative ear and style
development process elevates listening to the same status as the written
score.  This approach compliments the stylistic synthesis of the
original Third Stream concept, while also providing an open, broad based
learning environment that promotes the development of innovation and
individuality.  Musicians of note Marty Ehrlich, Michael Moore, Matthew
Shipp, Don Byron and John Medeski have studied with Blake at NEC among
countless others.

Still a vital musician himself, this year marks Blakeφs 40th anniversary
as an active recording artist.  His most recent recording, Sonic Temples
(GM Recordings), was called one of the ten best of 2001 by both the
Chicago Tribune and allaboutjazz.com, and Down Beat reviewer James Hale
called him "so hip it hurts."

For more information, go to http://www.ranblake.com or leave a message
for Ran Blake directly at [phone].  Serious inquiries only,
please.

--
Scott Menhinick
Improvised Communications
[phone]
[e-mail]


--------------8CCFA3F94459FD07588C7C81
Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>

<br><u>Ran Blake Is Accepting New Students</u>
<br>Veteran Boston-based pianist and educator Ran Blake is now accepting
private students in the areas of ear training, Jazz piano, accompaniment
for other semi-improvised music, development of personal musical style,
and instrumental improvisation.  These studies, with the obvious exception
of jazz piano, are open to musicians of all instruments and styles and
held in BlakeÆs studio in Brookline, Massachusetts.
<p><u>About Ran Blake</u>
<br>Ran Blake is currently celebrating 35 years at New England Conservatory,
where he has been Chair of the Third Stream/Contemporary Improvisation
Department since its inception in 1973.  Believing music is traditionally
taught by the wrong sense, his innovative ear and style development process
elevates listening to the same status as the written score.  This
approach compliments the stylistic synthesis of the original Third Stream
concept, while also providing an open, broad based learning environment
that promotes the development of innovation and individuality.  Musicians
of note Marty Ehrlich, Michael Moore, Matthew Shipp, Don Byron and John
Medeski have studied with Blake at NEC among countless others.
<p>Still a vital musician himself, this year marks BlakeÆs 40th anniversary
as an active recording artist.  His most recent recording, Sonic Temples
(GM Recordings), was called one of the ten best of 2001 by both the Chicago
Tribune and allaboutjazz.com, and Down Beat reviewer James Hale called
him "so hip it hurts."
<p>For more information, go to <a href="http://www.ranblake.com">http://www.ranblake.com</a>
or leave a message for Ran Blake directly at [phone].  Serious
inquiries only, please.
<p>--
<br>Scott Menhinick
<br>Improvised Communications
<br>[phone]
<br>[e-mail]
<br> </html>

--------------8CCFA3F94459FD07588C7C81--


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Zachary Steiner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Masada
Date: 18 Mar 2002 13:31:55 -0500

There is an upcoming April Masada performance in Chicago with the Maria
Schneider Orchestra.  Is the orchestra opening or is Masada being
expanded to a large group?

Zach



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Masada
Date: 18 Mar 2002 10:36:30 -0800

on 3/18/02 10:31 AM, Zachary Steiner at [e-mail] wrote:

> There is an upcoming April Masada performance in Chicago with the Maria
> Schneider Orchestra.  Is the orchestra opening or is Masada being
> expanded to a large group?
>
> Zach
>
We want some VERY deep and serious details on this!!!!!

skip h


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dan Given <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Japanese Independent Music--book
Date: 18 Mar 2002 12:13:25 -0700

>
> Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 04:06:44 +0000
> From: "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>
> Subject: Japanese Independent Music--book
>
> On a similar note, did anyone pick up the DIW releases of Abe and Takayangi
> last year, Gradually and Mass Projection?  I'd be curious as to opinions of
> Smith, Waxman, Chamberlain, or the Braxton scholars.  I thought these were
> powerful recordings, not unlike the Brotzmann/Sharrock collaborations.


I have Mass Projection. I listened to it a couple of times, and it goes
beyond any Sharrock I have heard (I'm not much of a Sharrock fan, can't
stand his tone, and think that the Last Exit stuff is the least interesting
of Brotzmann's output), though I think Brotzmann could hold his own with
these guys.

Mass Projection isn't something I would be likely to pull off the shelf to
listen to at home, but I'll look for it next time I have a few hours on the
highway coming up.

Dan


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "D Dvb" <[e-mail]>
Subject: kids of widney high
Date: 18 Mar 2002 11:22:30 -0800

Sorry to jump into this a little late but I've been out of town for a week
or so.

As for the Kids of Widney High, I've only seen them open for Mr. Bungle.  I
can't really say that I'd pay money for the cd but I did enjoy their set
more than, say...the last Built to Spill set or the last David Ware set or
the last AMM set that I saw.  I'm not sure what Efren's point was (should
there by "prerequisites" before you are making valid art?), but a lot of
people enjoyed them at that show.  I guess I have a point in here somewhere
but damn me if I can figure it out.  It's all about communication and
touching people and as long as you can do that, it's valid.  As for Patton's
motivations, he seems like a pretty enlightened guy to me and I don't know
why someone would get the impression that he's using handicapped kids for
some sort of Elephant Man gimmick.

--davy

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Arthur Gadney" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Japanese Independent Music--book
Date: 18 Mar 2002 19:27:57 +0000


>I bought this recently and have been pretty impressed with the
>discographies
>of Japanese music.  Most of the text is a large dictionary of Japanese
>music, but there are a few essays at the beginning.  The accompanying CD is
>quite nice as well with music samples from Yuko Nexus 6, Haino Keiji, Hoppy
>Kamiyama, KK Null, Nakamura & Sachiko M from a live date in Bordeaux, Haco,
>the Ruins, and an excellent piece by Acid Mothers Temple.  The CD is 76
>minutes in length and the whole package is put out by Sonore in France for
>about $33 US.  Available at DMG when I ordered about two months ago.  Other
>comments?

Nice book, but be aware that it's quite full of factual errors. So you might
want to double check. Still a good place to start further explorations, and
a great CD to boot.

Cheers.

NP: Fred Frith "Clearing"
NR: "Searching For Peacer: The Road To Transcend" by Johan Galtung


_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Zachary Steiner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Quine Tapes
Date: 18 Mar 2002 15:13:25 -0500

What is the sound quality like on the new Velvet Underground Bootleg
set?  Is it worth shelling out the money for?

Zach



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Sean Westergaard" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Quine Tapes
Date: 18 Mar 2002 15:11:16 -0500

i haven't heard the whole thing, but the cuts I have heard were pretty poor
sound.  not totally unlistenable, but pretty bad.  I guess it depends on how
badly you need to hear more live VU.  what I've heard of their live output
tells me they weren't really a live band, and Lou is kind of a hack on
guitar (is that too balsphemous?).  anyone with a different take on live
Velvets?

sean

-----Original Message-----
[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Zachary Steiner
Sent: Monday, March 18, 2002 3:13 PM


What is the sound quality like on the new Velvet Underground Bootleg
set?  Is it worth shelling out the money for?

Zach



-



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "D Dvb" <[e-mail]>
Subject: kids of widney high
Date: 18 Mar 2002 11:22:30 -0800

Sorry to jump into this a little late but I've been out of town for a week
or so.

As for the Kids of Widney High, I've only seen them open for Mr. Bungle.  I
can't really say that I'd pay money for the cd but I did enjoy their set
more than, say...the last Built to Spill set or the last David Ware set or
the last AMM set that I saw.  I'm not sure what Efren's point was (should
there by "prerequisites" before you are making valid art?), but a lot of
people enjoyed them at that show.  I guess I have a point in here somewhere
but damn me if I can figure it out.  It's all about communication and
touching people and as long as you can do that, it's valid.  As for Patton's
motivations, he seems like a pretty enlightened guy to me and I don't know
why someone would get the impression that he's using handicapped kids for
some sort of Elephant Man gimmick.

--davy

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


-

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Arthur Gadney" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Japanese Independent Music--book
Date: 18 Mar 2002 19:27:57 +0000


>I bought this recently and have been pretty impressed with the
>discographies
>of Japanese music.  Most of the text is a large dictionary of Japanese
>music, but there are a few essays at the beginning.  The accompanying CD is
>quite nice as well with music samples from Yuko Nexus 6, Haino Keiji, Hoppy
>Kamiyama, KK Null, Nakamura & Sachiko M from a live date in Bordeaux, Haco,
>the Ruins, and an excellent piece by Acid Mothers Temple.  The CD is 76
>minutes in length and the whole package is put out by Sonore in France for
>about $33 US.  Available at DMG when I ordered about two months ago.  Other
>comments?

Nice book, but be aware that it's quite full of factual errors. So you might
want to double check. Still a good place to start further explorations, and
a great CD to boot.

Cheers.

NP: Fred Frith "Clearing"
NR: "Searching For Peacer: The Road To Transcend" by Johan Galtung


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-

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Thierry Raguin <[e-mail]>
Subject: Bumblefoot (no JZ content)
Date: 18 Mar 2002 23:45:33 +0100

By the way, as I see that some people are interested in Mike Patton, do
you know about this band called Bumblefoot? I discovered it with their
Uncool CD (another one called Uncool was just released and is quite
similar to the one I have, but Bumblefoot is now the name of the great
guitar player Ron Thal who initiated the band). I bought the CD mainly
because of a critic I read: "Bumblefoot: when Mike Patton meets the Love
Boat"!!!! It's really good if you like "Patton's crooner singing" style ;-)

Ron Thal is really a great guitar player and he sings really well...
(and I love his cheese guitar ;-)

- TR


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Zachary Steiner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Quine Tapes
Date: 18 Mar 2002 15:13:25 -0500

What is the sound quality like on the new Velvet Underground Bootleg
set?  Is it worth shelling out the money for?

Zach



-

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Andrew" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: kids of widney high
Date: 18 Mar 2002 14:25:12 -0500

Are we actually having a debate as to whether or not the Kids of Widney High
album is a gimmick? OF COURSE it's a gimmick- it's a novelty cd, released
for the sole purpose of eliciting a reaction of "Huh huh huh...Retards are
funny. Huh huh huh."

It's fucking stupid, and anyone who seriously entertains the idea that
Patton/Ipecac released this as a beautiful piece of moving art is a fucking
idiot.

andrew


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: RE: Japanese Independent Music--book
Date: 19 Mar 2002 01:07:13 +0000





William L. Ashline
Department of English Language and Literature
Yonsei University
Seoul, Korea 120-749
http://www.yonsei.ac.kr/YSI/ysi?a=eng.academic.AcademicView&Depth=4&Code=030010002003

>From: "Steve Smith" <[e-mail]>
>Subject: RE: Japanese Independent Music--book
>
>The comparison to Brotzmann and Sharrock is appropriate, but I hear these
>as
>being even more unhinged and dangerous. Abe is damn near uncontainable. The
>whole thing is so overwhelming and abrasive; I'm glad I've got 'em, but I
>can't imagine pulling them out that often.

I agree with this assessment.  These recordings are on fire.  They're
basically too much to listen to for long stretches.  I enjoy them for the
pure energy of the playing, but they're so damned aggressive, I feel like
I'm on aural overload after about 15 minutes or so.


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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: kids of widney high
Date: 18 Mar 2002 21:26:26 -0600

On Mon, Mar 18, 2002 at 02:25:12PM -0500, Andrew wrote:

> It's fucking stupid, and anyone who seriously entertains the idea that
> Patton/Ipecac released this as a beautiful piece of moving art is a fucking
> idiot.

To many listeners this seems far from obvious. Please enlighten us with
evidence, o master.

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Herb Levy <[e-mail]>
Subject: New Music in RealAudio, Mappings for the week beginning March 19,
Date: 18 Mar 2002 23:26:25 -0600

Hi y'all,

This week on Mappings
<http://www.antennaradio.com/mappings/show.htm>, you'll hear works
for strings and pianos played in unusual ways by composers Louis
Andriessen, Gloria Coates, Ellen Fullman, Yannis Kyriakides, Alvin
Lucier, and Stephen Scott.

The show went online Tueday morning around 6:00 AM (-0600 GMT) and
will remain online at the above URL for a week. Last week's program
(featuring electro-acoustic music by composer/performers Howard
Frederics, Jonathan Harvey, If Bwana, Greg Kelley & Jason Lescalleet,
Thomas Lehn & Gerry Hemingway, Gordon Mumma, Pauline Oliveros, Mark
Trayle & Vinnie Golia, and Stephen Vitiello) is still available in
the Mappings archive (click on the link to last week's show on the
page noted above), soon you will again find play lists for the
program since it began in March 1998.

Hope you tune in to the program.

Bests,

Herb

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Pei-Yi Kim" <[e-mail]>
Subject: -- Masada in Chicago --
Date: 19 Mar 2002 01:11:22 -0500

Hi All,

      The best I'm able to come up with is:

      Chicago Symphony Center April 19th 8pm

      John Zorn?s Masada
      Maria Schneider Orchestra

      It is unclear for the moment who is playing in which order, but my
guess is that Maria Schneider Orchestra will open. I found a couple of links
for more information:

      http://www.cso.org/sat_subcategory.taf?subcategoryid=111#4


http://metromix.com/top/1,1419,M-Metromix-Events-X!EventDetail-66856,00.html

      Incidentally I will also be in Chicago that weekend visiting my best
friend.
      Lucky me/us,
      Pei-Yi

----Original Message Follows----

on 3/18/02 10:31 AM, Zachary Steiner at [e-mail] wrote:

 > There is an upcoming April Masada performance in Chicago with the Maria
 > Schneider Orchestra.  Is the orchestra opening or is Masada being
 > expanded to a large group?
 >
 > Zach
 >
We want some VERY deep and serious details on this!!!!!

skip h




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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "David Egan" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Sylvian Mash?
Date: 18 Mar 2002 22:47:02 -0800

Seems like I've heard a story kind of like this, but I can't swear to it.
Bill and Keith have worked together pretty extensively in Bill's band "The
Willies" who have a CD coming out in June.  Bill attends a lot of shows
around town (I run into him once or twice a month it seems) and Keith works
in probably a dozen bands, so it's no surprise that they found each other.
This will be Sylvian's second tour with Tim and Keith - the first was
September/October 2001.

Dave

> my best guess would be a recommendation from fellow Seattle-ite
> Bill Frisell who particpated on the last Sylvian project.  I'm
> pretty sure Frisell has a group that includes Keith Lowe.
> they certainly know each other thru Horvitz.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "David Egan" <[e-mail]>
Subject: FW: RE: Quine Tapes
Date: 18 Mar 2002 22:47:41 -0800

Yes, the sound quality in The Quine Tapes truly sucks.  Haven't been able to
get through the whole thing either, but one of these evenings when I'm in
the mood, I'll get through it.

Sean, have you heard "1969 Live?"  I can't believe you could hear that and
think that Lou Reed is a hack.  Once you're past the obnoxious cover art,
that is a stunning set IMHO.  The solo in white light/white heat is one of
my all-time favorite rock guitar solos.

Dave
i haven't heard the whole thing, but the cuts I have heard were pretty poor
sound.  not totally unlistenable, but pretty bad.  I guess it depends on how
badly you need to hear more live VU.  what I've heard of their live output
tells me they weren't really a live band, and Lou is kind of a hack on
guitar (is that too balsphemous?).  anyone with a different take on live
Velvets?

sean


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: ethiopiques
Date: 19 Mar 2002 01:49:03 EST

In a message dated 3/16/02 10:59:38 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< Has anyone been collecting this series from Buda Musique?  How are they?
 Any favorites thus far?  And is there a reasonably cheap place to buy them
 rather than Other Music?  Thanks. >>

When my local store hasn't had them, I've been picking 'em up from Dusty
Groove.  IIRC, they price 'em @ $15/each.

--
=dg=

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Re: Japanese Independent Music--book
Date: 19 Mar 2002 06:58:19 +0000


>From: "Arthur Gadney" <[e-mail]>

>Nice book, but be aware that it's quite full of factual errors. So you
>might
>want to double check. Still a good place to start further explorations, and
>a great CD to boot.


That's interesting.  Could you elaborate further on some of the factual
errors, Arthur.  I'm curious as to where those are.  Thanks.

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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Quine Tapes
Date: 18 Mar 2002 23:04:25 -0800

 anyone with a different take on live
> Velvets?
>
> sean
>
Yes, and you'd never believe that it's me of all people.

Personally, I think their attempts at extended improvising are a joke, and
one that wears thin in nanoseconds.  Sonny Sharrock or Bill Harkleroad he
ain't.   But I take the third VU album (and, to a lesser extent, LOADED)
real seriously.  When Lou Reed puts down the artsy-fartsy pose and really
goes after songwriting by the throat, he's deadly (I'd also cite BLUE MASK,
and some each of NEW YORK, and LEGENDARY HEARTS as examples of this).

skip h
(apparently, the loyal opposition)

NP: the louvin bros, satan is real


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Remco Takken" <[e-mail]>
Subject: original non-remastered cd's, Was: Re: eno & remastering
Date: 18 Mar 2002 11:39:10 +0100


> P.S.  Oh, and for the last three or four months I have been
> purchasing the remasterd Miles stuff.  The sound is incredible - but
> how was the sound on the original release of the CD's?
>

> Tosh Berman
Sometimes it's a matter of choice, I feel.

On the 'old' Kind of Blue cd, there's almost no hiss, and the sound is
really warm. However, the de-noiser studio system was used so extensively,
that even Jimmy Cobb's brushes were removed from one track. I have no idea
if they were considered as 'hiss', or that this Dolby machine decided to
cancel that sound.

Any way, the 'new' cd hisses your ass of, all of the old original analog
studio tape is there, but you do hear the brushed drum sounds again...

Regards, Remco


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "john schuller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: RE: Sylvian Mash?
Date: 19 Mar 2002 00:14:03 -0800

Keith Lowe was recommended by Bill Frisell.
Timothy Young was recommended by both Keith Lowe and Eyvind Kang.

John Schuller
www.johnschuller.da.ru

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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "john schuller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Vincent Gallo
Date: 19 Mar 2002 00:17:13 -0800

Has anyone here checked out the new Vincent Gallo record "When"? It is
creepy and pretty.

John Schuller
www.johnschuller.da.ru

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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Vincent Gallo
Date: 19 Mar 2002 03:19:08 EST


In a message dated 03.19.02 03.17.36, [e-mail] writes:

>Has anyone here checked out the new Vincent Gallo record "When"? It is
>creepy and pretty.

isn't this disc on warp?  i'm almost positive it is.  vincent gallo freaks
the shit out of me, but i've heard great things about this album.  those
buffalo boys...

k



---
[.n0thing.is.what.is.sAid.]
k a t e  p e t e r s o n
c o m p o s e r / p e r f o r m e r

http://www.geocities.com/uforbk8/kate.html
http://www.icefoundation.org (roundtable)

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Andrew" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Vincent Gallo
Date: 19 Mar 2002 03:18:09 -0500

> Has anyone here checked out the new Vincent Gallo record "When"? It is
> creepy and pretty.

I absolutley love "when"- it's one of my favorite records from last year. It
has that perfectly muted, minimal vibe....there are a few times when Gallo's
voice suddenly reminds me of Billie Holiday on "Gloomy Sunday"- especially
on that last track...."I'm always sad." What a beautiful album.




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Arthur Gadney" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Boredoms in USA
Date: 19 Mar 2002 09:47:47 +0000



Hey guys.

So, the All Tomorrow's Parties thing must be over by now, right? Did anybody
go? How was Boredoms?????

Cheers

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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Stephen Fruitman)
Subject: Pretty Nifty Balkan Swing With a Twist
Date: 19 Mar 2002 10:49:43 +0100 (MET)

An interesting new album arrived the other day: The Harmonia Ensemble
(piano, cello, clarinet) and the Kocani Orkestar, a brilliant
Macedonian-Gypsy outfit, combining to reinterpret the saga of Ulysses.
_Ulixes_ (Materiali Sonori - www.matson.it/ulixes) combines wild Balkan
boogie (you know the kind, where everybody seems to want to play lead at
once, backed up by rock solid bleating rhythms) very, very nicely with
touches here and there from the chamber ensemble. The HE have embarked on
some pretty ill-advised projects in the past (though I heartily recommend
their Gavin Bryars interpretations on _The North Shore_, same label), but
this is a little gem. Fans of Hasidic New Wave etc. will love it. Stephen

Stephen Fruitman
Dept of Historical Studies
Ume=E5 University
SE-901 87 Ume=E5 Sweden



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Philip Clarkson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Sylvian Mash
Date: 19 Mar 2002 10:21:30 +0000

Correct on the Frisell connection - I heard a Sylvian interview where he
said that Frisell had put him on to them. I saw the band in London last year
& for my money, I thought they were competent players, but not outstanding.
Maybe Sylvian never gave them the opportunity to bring something personal to
the music. I felt a lot of the arrangements trampled on the subtleties of
much of Sylvian's work, but then Sylvian is a notorious control-freak & must
have thought that rocking-out was the way to go. The worst culprit in the
band was the UK keyboard-player, Matt Cooper, who gave the most extravagant
performance of gurning & hair-tossing whilst playing, the likes of which I
hadn't seen since Nigel Tuffnel played a solo  on "Sex Farm".

Phil Clarkson

>
> Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 12:24:04 -0500
> From: "Sean Westergaard" <[e-mail]>
> Subject: RE: Sylvian Mash?
>
> my best guess would be a recommendation from fellow Seattle-ite Bill Frisell
> who particpated on the last Sylvian project.  I'm pretty sure Frisell has a
> group that includes Keith Lowe.  they certainly know each other thru
> Horvitz.
>
> sean
>
> - -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail]
> [mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Steve Smith
> Sent: Monday, March 18, 2002 12:27 PM
> To: Zorn-List (E-mail)
> Subject: Sylvian Mash?
>
>
> Out of sheer curiosity, does anyone know how Zony Mash's Tim Young and Keith
> Lowe came be to be part of David Sylvian's backing band on his upcoming
> North American tour in April and May?
>
> Steve Smith
> [e-mail]


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "tp.schakenbos" <[e-mail]>
Subject: fractal music?
Date: 19 Mar 2002 12:13:32 +0100

> i would also be willing to bet that this is why 99.99999% of all
fractal
> music sounds like complete doodie...

Fractal music!? Are there bands around trying this out? I only am aware
of the visual fractals.

Bram <--- who will introduce himself soon


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: =?Windows-1252?Q?Efr=E9n_del_Valle?= <[e-mail]>
Subject: Previte/Frith/Some Questions
Date: 18 Mar 2002 21:28:27 +0100

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C1CEC3.D78EF760
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

HI everyone,

I'd like to add to those who recommended Bobby Previte's "The 23 =
Constellations of Joan Mir=F3". I've never really been into Previte's =
compositional style - although I never heard his Avant release, which is =
supposed to be one of his best works to date- but this tribute is a =
major achievement, IMHO. The compositions are great, the execution =
superb and the choice of instrumentation seems perfect to me. The record =
sounds soft all over, with the profusion of celeste, vibes, marimbas, =
harp, piano, keyboards, soprano sax, ... etc, and the melodic character =
of the pieces grabbed me from the very first notes. Although the general =
tone is really cohesioned, "Constellations" is styllistically varied and =
makes 55 minutes look like an eye-blink. It's hard for me to discern the =
many generes colliding, or more specifically, gracefully coexisting in =
Previte's music, which makes this record even more interesting to my =
ears. Furthermore, as a Catalan myself, this homage to the figure of =
Joan Mir=F3 makes me (humbly) proud. I'd like to encourage everyone to =
check it out.=20

I also had the chance to listen to the new Fred Frith/Maybe Monday =
release on W&W, which is a whole different story. Just one listening is =
definitely not enough to swallow this wild improv, noisy record. Frith's =
playing is really aggresive, as opposed to previous releases of his like =
the wonderful "Traffic Continues" and "Clearing". It's certainly an =
adventurous recording that surprised me in comparison with the rest of =
the W&W catalogue. If you expected melodies, stay away from it!

Also, did anyone hear the first volume of Hamid Drake/William Parker =
duets on AUM Fidelity? Any orientative info would be greatly =
appreciated.
And what about Fred Frith's "Freedom in Fragments" on Tzadik?

Thanks in advance,

Efr=E9n del Valle
n.p: Ruins "Live at Kichijoji Mandala II" (Tzadik)

------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C1CEC3.D78EF760
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dwindows-1252" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2919.6307" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>HI everyone,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I'd like to add to those who recommended Bobby =
Previte's "The=20
23 Constellations of Joan Mir=F3". I've never really been into Previte's =

compositional style - although I never heard his Avant release, which is =

supposed to be one of his best works to date- but this tribute is a =
major=20
achievement, IMHO. The compositions are great, the execution superb and =
the=20
choice of instrumentation seems perfect to me. The record sounds soft =
all over,=20
with the profusion of celeste, vibes, marimbas, harp, piano, keyboards, =
soprano=20
sax, ... etc, and the melodic character of the pieces grabbed me from =
the very=20
first notes. Although the general tone is really cohesioned, =
"Constellations" is=20
styllistically varied and makes 55 minutes look like an eye-blink. It's =
hard for=20
me to discern the many generes colliding, or more specifically, =
gracefully=20
coexisting in Previte's music, which makes this record even more=20
interesting to my ears. Furthermore, as a Catalan myself, this homage to =
the=20
figure of Joan Mir=F3 makes me (humbly) proud. I'd like to encourage =
everyone to=20
check it out. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I also had the chance to listen to the new Fred =
Frith/Maybe=20
Monday release on W&W, which is a whole different story. Just one =
listening=20
is definitely not enough to swallow this wild improv, noisy record. =
Frith's=20
playing is really aggresive, as opposed to previous releases of his like =
the=20
wonderful "Traffic Continues" and "Clearing". It's certainly an =
adventurous=20
recording that surprised me in comparison with the rest of the W&W=20
catalogue. If you expected melodies, stay away from it!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Also, did anyone hear the first volume of Hamid =
Drake/William=20
Parker duets on AUM Fidelity? Any orientative info would be greatly=20
appreciated.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>And what about Fred Frith's "Freedom in Fragments" =
on=20
Tzadik?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Thanks in advance,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Efr=E9n del Valle</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>n.p: Ruins "Live at Kichijoji Mandala II"=20
(Tzadik)</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C1CEC3.D78EF760--


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "tp.schakenbos" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Das Gold Der Liebe
Date: 19 Mar 2002 13:53:08 +0100

HI Guys and GirlS!!!
I am a gay boy from the Netherlands and 23 years old.
I have a little website under contruction at
http://www.geocities.com/vampire4karma.
I am always interested in new music and I love the works of John Zorn
much
(not everything though, but most of it nevertheless).

Here is a little list of other artists I enjoy:
Tuck and Patti, Lydia Mendoza, Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan, La Lupe, Current
93, Jane Siberry,
Serge Gainsbourg, Nick Drake, Patty Waters, Barry Adamson,  Miles Davis,
Diamanda Galas,
Angelo Badelamenti, Rachmaninov, Miranda Sex Garden, John Cage, Lydia
Lunch, Erasure,
The Cranes, Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds, Screaming JH, Gavin Friday, My
Life With The
Thrill Kill Kult, Nina Hagen, Divine, Yma Sumac Oxbow, John Zorn, Tori
Amos, Christian Wolz,
Mozart, etc

Recently I have been trying to hunt down cultmovie soundtracks...
I especially enjoy good quality weird music.
Perhaps you have any suggestions for me on where to look.
I have a lot to catch up with Rock music 2!!
My favorite rock album is 'The Sporting Life' John Paul Jones/Diamanda
Galas.
I will check out The Melvins and Magma.. Fantomas...<-- I heard one
track of them...
they sound pretty cool. I also enjoy the Painkiller albums.
So I am a sissy...but honey you aint my pimp. One final question!
A while ago I have seen a film called 'Das Gold der Liebe' (The Gold of
Love)
it is a german horror movie about a girl who walks the streets of berlin
with bleeding
eyes in search for 'Gaby and Robert'. Does anyone know what band plays
the music
for this film?

Thank you!
Bram





-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Quine tapes (VU)
Date: 19 Mar 2002 14:24:05 +0100

>=20
> Personally,=A0I=A0think=A0their=A0attempts=A0at=A0extended=A0improvising=
=A0are=A0a=A0joke,=A0and
> one=A0that=A0wears=A0thin=A0in=A0nanoseconds.

Is "Sister Ray" being referred to here?  really?  "wears thin in=20
nanoseconds"?

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Zachary Steiner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Quine Tapes
Date: 19 Mar 2002 08:38:04 -0500

>> But I take the third VU album (and, to a lesser extent, LOADED)
real seriously.

I do too but I enjoy White Light/White Heat a lot more and & Nico to a
lesser extent.  Maybe I need to give the Velvets' albums more time (I
only recently started listening to them) but WL/WH struck me the most.

Zach



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Sean Westergaard" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Quine Tapes
Date: 19 Mar 2002 08:30:09 -0500




 anyone with a different take on live
> Velvets?
>
> sean
>


>   But I take the third VU album (and, to a lesser extent, LOADED)
>real seriously.  When Lou Reed puts down the artsy-fartsy pose and really
>goes after songwriting by the throat, he's deadly (I'd also cite BLUE MASK,
>and some each of NEW YORK, and LEGENDARY HEARTS as examples of this).

don't get me wrong, i love those Velvets albums, it's the live stuff that
really doesn't do it for me.

>NP: the louvin bros, satan is real

Hooray for the Louvin Bros! "that word BROADMINDED is spelled S-I-N"
-


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Sean Westergaard" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: fractal music?
Date: 19 Mar 2002 08:31:47 -0500






> i would also be willing to bet that this is why 99.99999% of all
fractal
> music sounds like complete doodie...

>Fractal music!? Are there bands around trying this out? I only am aware
>of the visual fractals.

Elliott Sharp has done albums based on both fractals and the Fibonacci (?)
series.  speaking as a fan, i can't say which i enjoy less.

sean


-



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Perfect Sound Forever <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Japanese Independent Music--book
Date: 19 Mar 2002 10:12:52 -0500

> Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 19:27:57 +0000
> From: "Arthur Gadney"
>
> Nice book, but be aware that it's quite full of factual errors. So you might
> want to double check. Still a good place to start further explorations, and
> a great CD to boot.
>

Definitely agree with this.  As a beginner's reference, it's worthwhile but not much analysis or
explanation about any artist's work.  I kind of think of it like 'Cracks in the Cosmic Egg,' the
tome on Krautrock- decent book too if only because nothing detailed is out there otherwise
(though the Cope book was entertaining).

Best,
Jason
--
Perfect Sound Forever
online music magazine
[e-mail]
http://www.furious.com/perfect



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Arthur Gadney" <[e-mail]>
Subject: That's All Folks - new Stalling CD
Date: 19 Mar 2002 15:28:42 +0000

Hey guys.

Any comments on "That's All Folksá:áMerrie Melodies & Looney Tunes"?

I'm wondering if it's worth the price. I'm as happy as anyone to see more of
Stalling's incredible stuff released, but some of the comments I have heard
has made me a bit reluctant. Apparantly, some of the tracks are the
"complete" sounds from the cartoons, sound effect, voices and all. So why
not jsut watch the video???

Cheers.

HTTP://WWW.TRANSCEND.ORG/



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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: fractal music?
Date: 19 Mar 2002 10:32:33 EST


In a message dated 03.19.02 06.17.43, [e-mail] writes:

>Fractal music!? Are there bands around trying this out? I only am aware
>of the visual fractals.

i certainly don't know of any bands who are using fractal business, but there
is a wide array of composers (perhaps i should use the term lightly, here)
who use fractal mathematics and chaos theory principles to generate sound.  i
personally do not generally like the random soundbursts that this creates...
charles wuorinen is probably the largest proponent of this b.s. i can think
of...

k8.




---
[.n0thing.is.what.is.sAid.]
k a t e  p e t e r s o n
c o m p o s e r / p e r f o r m e r

http://www.geocities.com/uforbk8/kate.html
http://www.icefoundation.org (roundtable)

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Quine Tapes
Date: 19 Mar 2002 10:35:02 EST


In a message dated 03.19.02 08.40.56, [e-mail] writes:

>don't get me wrong, i love those Velvets albums, it's the live stuff that
>really doesn't do it for me.

i've got to second sean's emotion here.  the thing i probably love most about
VU is the way they sound in a studio recording - the way the guitars ring and
the clean/dirty mix, and the clarity of the vocals.  this is all washed away
in live recordings (imo) to make a big amalgam of icky...

and i think i'm the only person on earth who hates nico.  and man, i hate
nico.

love,
  k8.


---
[.n0thing.is.what.is.sAid.]
k a t e  p e t e r s o n
c o m p o s e r / p e r f o r m e r

http://www.geocities.com/uforbk8/kate.html
http://www.icefoundation.org (roundtable)

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Arthur Gadney" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Japanese Independent Music--book
Date: 19 Mar 2002 15:38:38 +0000

Hello.
á
>That's interesting.á Could you elaborate further on some of the factual
>errors, Arthur.á I'm curious as to where those are.á Thanks.

Well, I can't give you an actually example right now, as I don't have the
book with me here. You might want to go to the Japanese Psychedelia list,
where it has been discussed in more detail.
But I'm very tolerant of this type of thing normally, but in this book it
actually stuck out enough to really annoy me. And not only is it rather full
of mistakes, also some of the articles were very bad. I remember one, which
is basically one line saying "this is the best girl punk band in Japan". Not
very useful. The part on Boredoms, for example, was a scandal.

Some of the text was obviously clipped out from other places. I think the
one on Satoko Fuji is the one were they just took a part from a review of
one of her CDs, so the text actually says "this CD...", which doesn't really
make sense.

>Definitely agree with this.  As a beginner's reference, it's worthwhile but
>not much analysis or
>explanation about any artist's work.

Some of the articles are quite good, like on Ruins, but I suspect it's
because they have releases on Sonore ;-)

>I kind of think of it like 'Cracks in the Cosmic Egg,' the
>tome on Krautrock- decent book too if only because nothing detailed is out
>there otherwise
>(though the Cope book was entertaining).

I totally agree.

When will somebody translate Masami Akita's book on japanese noise? I
suspect it's probably mroe insingthful.

Cheers.

http://www.nd.edu/~milind/posts/hoodbhoy.html

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Arthur Gadney" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re:  Previte/Frith/Some Questions
Date: 19 Mar 2002 16:30:41 +0000

Ohoy!

>I also had the chance to listen to the new Fred Frith/Maybe Monday release
>on W&W, which is a whole different story. Just one listening is definitely
>not enough to swallow this wild improv, noisy record. Frith's playing is
>really aggresive, as opposed to previous releases of his like the wonderful
>"Traffic Continues" and "Clearing". It's certainly an adventurous recording
>that surprised me in comparison with the rest of the W&W catalogue. If you
>expected melodies, stay away from it!

Oh, that does sound good!

Any more info? Title of album, lineup, is it free impro...?

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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Previte/Frith/Some Questions
Date: 19 Mar 2002 08:59:39 -0800


On Mon, 18 Mar 2002 21:28:27 +0100  =?Windows-1252?Q?Efr=E9n_del_Valle?= wrote:
>
> I'd like to add to those who recommended Bobby Previte's "The 23
> Constellations of Joan Miro". I've never really been into Previte's
> compositional style - although I never heard his Avant release, which is
> supposed to be one of his best works to date- [...]

You mean SLAY THE SUITORS? That's strange, because it is usually fairly down
the list of top Previte records. IMHO, not to the level of excitement of the
Gramavision/Enja material.

Maybe some people mention it because it is hard to find and we all know that
the hard to find records are the best :-).

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Lang Thompson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: That's All Folks - new Stalling CD
Date: 19 Mar 2002 12:11:22 -0500

>Any comments on "That's All Folks=A0:=A0Merrie Melodies & Looney Tunes"?

My (brief) review is at
http://www.turnerclassicmovies.com/News/Index/0,3371,30|17|,00.html


Definitely pick up the two Stalling Project discs first though.

LT


Freedom Is Free Form
WFMU  http://wfmu.org
Fund Drive March 4 to 17

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Quine tapes (VU)
Date: 19 Mar 2002 09:22:39 -0800

on 3/19/02 5:24 AM, [e-mail] at [e-mail] wrote:

>>=20
>> Personally,=A0I=A0think=A0their=A0attempts=A0at=A0extended=A0improvising=A0are=A0a=A0joke,=A0a=
nd
>> one=A0that=A0wears=A0thin=A0in=A0nanoseconds.
>=20
> Is "Sister Ray" being referred to here?  really?  "wears thin in
> nanoseconds"?
>=20
> -
Particularly "Sister Ray", for me.  In fact, the WHITE LIGHT/WHITE HEAT
ALBUM is a general thing.

sh


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Efr=E9n=20del=20Valle?= <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fwd: Re: Previte/Frith/Some Questions
Date: 19 Mar 2002 18:27:26 +0100 (CET)

Yes, that's the record I meant. I didn't know it was
underrated. Certainly, not here. Curiously, it's not a
hard to find item in Barcelona, at least it wasn't a
couple of years ago, and it was damn CHEAP! (i never
understood why US imports are more expensive here than
those coming from Japan- It's absurd!!)

I guess you are right, hard to find records are always
"better", even more if they smell like Japan imports
(their writing is so cute ;-))

Best,

EfrΘn
>
> You mean SLAY THE SUITORS? That's strange, because
> it is usually fairly down
> the list of top Previte records. IMHO, not to the
> level of excitement of the
> Gramavision/Enja material.
>
> Maybe some people mention it because it is hard to
> find and we all know that
> the hard to find records are the best :-).
>
>     Patrice.

_______________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Messenger
Comunicaci≤n instantßnea gratis con tu gente.
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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: fractal music?
Date: 19 Mar 2002 09:41:02 -0800


On Tue, 19 Mar 2002 10:32:33 EST  [e-mail] wrote:
>
> i certainly don't know of any bands who are using fractal business, but there
> is a wide array of composers (perhaps i should use the term lightly, here)
> who use fractal mathematics and chaos theory principles to generate sound.  i
> personally do not generally like the random soundbursts that this creates...
> charles wuorinen is probably the largest proponent of this b.s. i can think
> of...

Wuorinen's B.S.? Where does is put your own stuff?

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: fractal music?
Date: 19 Mar 2002 09:49:13 -0800

on 3/19/02 9:41 AM, Patrice L. Roussel at [e-mail] wrote:

>> charles wuorinen is probably the largest proponent of this b.s. i can think
>> of...
>
> Wuorinen's B.S.? Where does is put your own stuff?
>
> Patrice.
>
> -

It probably puts her stuff in an aesthetic place opposed to Wuorinen, which
is not the same as a place where you can level an attack on her work.

sh


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Toby Dodds" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Ethipiques
Date: 19 Mar 2002 09:55:23 -0800

I was lucky enough to pick a few volumes of these for $10 at a Ethipian
record store in DC (can't remember the name but it's in Adams Morgan).  Vol.
4 "Ethio Jazz & Musique Instrumentale 1969 - 1974" comes with the highest
recomendation.
Cheers,
Toby




In a message dated 3/16/02 10:59:38 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< Has anyone been collecting this series from Buda Musique?  How are they?
 Any favorites thus far?  And is there a reasonably cheap place to buy them
 rather than Other Music?  Thanks. >>

When my local store hasn't had them, I've been picking 'em up from Dusty
Groove.  IIRC, they price 'em @ $15/each.

- --
=dg=



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "\"*:-.,_,.-:*'``'*:-." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Quine tapes (VU)
Date: 18 Mar 2002 19:12:30 +0100

>>> Personally, I think their attempts at extended improvising are a joke=
,
and
>>> one that wears thin in nanoseconds.
>>
>> Is "Sister Ray" being referred to here?  really?  "wears thin in
>> nanoseconds"?
>>
>> -


>Particularly "Sister Ray", for me.  In fact, the WHITE LIGHT/WHITE HEAT
>ALBUM is a general thing.


OK, in that case I can understand.  Huh : too bad.  If you don't get it, =
you
don't get it (I don't get a lot of things either).  What got me from the
very first time I heard it, Sister Ray, was the fact that somehow they
managed to achieve something -- a certain pitch of noise, maybe momentum,
maybe a certain je-ne-sais-quoi -- and sustain it for, counting, eight
minutes, ten minutes, thirteen, fifteen minutes, in some respects absolut=
ely
unchanging, until it all sort of falls apart in chaos and a final dzzzzzt
guitar note.  The second thing that really got me about "Sister Ray" is t=
he
fact that it SWINGS like a muthafucka:  once at an undergrad party (at
Berkeley?!) I managed to slip on "Sister Ray" and people quite happily
danced way WAY into it, until just about the final stages, when the major=
ity
of partygoers decided that they absolutely COULD NOT stand hearing it any
longer and turned it off.  But the band keep the beat and that wwwWHHOOMM=
PPH
swing much later into it than you would think [arguably, throughout].  An=
d
every now and then, Uncle Lou cuts in and gives us more narrative in his
brilliantly detached way, also unchanging throughout the duration, if you
can keep track of who's sucking on whose dingdong.  =80-;  [ <-- chowing =
down
on the Big 'Basa, hereby nominated as the "best new use of the euro symbo=
l
in an emoticon of the week" award]




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: fractal music?
Date: 19 Mar 2002 10:00:06 -0800


On Tue, 19 Mar 2002 09:49:13 -0800  skip Heller wrote:
>
> on 3/19/02 9:41 AM, Patrice L. Roussel at [e-mail] wrote:
>
> >> charles wuorinen is probably the largest proponent of this b.s. i can think
> >> of...
> >
> > Wuorinen's B.S.? Where does is put your own stuff?
> >
> > Patrice.
> >
> > -
>
> It probably puts her stuff in an aesthetic place opposed to Wuorinen, which
> is not the same as a place where you can level an attack on her work.

And we are supposed to see K8 and Wuorinen on the same level, right?

If she can dismiss Wuorinen's music so easily based on what she calls B.S. (his
use of fractals, I suppose), I would expect similar intellectual rigor from
her part concerning her approach using Godel's theorem(s) and Julia's fractals.
From an outsider, Wuorinen's timid attempt looks like cream to me :-). I
definitely see B.S., but not in Wuorinen's work.

For someone who has exhibited recently such little pity for what many consider
as heros (with of course the usual IMHO, which allows to say the meanest things
and covering his ass at the same time), why such a sudden rash of indulgence
for K8?

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Zachary Steiner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Sharrock Inquiry
Date: 19 Mar 2002 13:00:47 -0500

This is for Steve Smith and any one else that wants to answer: What are
some good settings to listen to Sonny Sharrock?  Groups or individual
albums. Thanks.

Zach



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Oger <[e-mail]>
Subject: OLIVER JOHNSON
Date: 19 Mar 2002 19:05:38 +0200

Oliver Johnson, the drummer who played a long time with Steve Lacy
was found dead some days ago in a Paris square. There is a police
investigation. He seems to have been murdered.

Jacques Oger


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Sean Westergaard" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Sharrock Inquiry
Date: 19 Mar 2002 12:56:16 -0500

>What are some good settings to listen to Sonny Sharrock?  Groups or
individual
>albums. Thanks.

start with Guitar for solo action and the amazingly beautiful Ask the ages
with Pharoah Sanders and Elvin Jones.  for a more rock-style fix, check out
Seize the Rainbow.  stay clear of live in NYC.  for a more serious sonic
assault, try Last Exit.

sean

ask the ages is THE place to start






-



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: OLIVER JOHNSON
Date: 19 Mar 2002 10:07:27 -0800


    Yes, a really sad news.

On Tue, 19 Mar 2002 19:05:38 +0200  Oger wrote:
>
> Oliver Johnson, the drummer who played a long time with Steve Lacy
> was found dead some days ago in a Paris square. There is a police
> investigation. He seems to have been murdered.

Jeff Beer (on r.m.b.) heard that he was beaten up to death by skinheads
near Les Halles. Do you know where this is coming from?

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Benito Vergara" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Boredoms in USA
Date: 19 Mar 2002 10:11:35 -0800

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail]
> [mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Arthur Gadney
> Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2002 1:48 AM

> How was Boredoms?????

Saw Boredoms at Slim's in San Francisco last week (Jackie-O Motherfucker
opened for them; skronk-scree-drone; no great shakes).

I'd never seen the Boredoms live before, but I was preparing myself for
people collapsing from exhaustion. It wasn't quite like that, but people in
the audience were screaming spontaneously anyway. =)

This particular lineup happened to be four people (77, the kid, happened to
be sitting this one out and was with her mom, their manager, at the T-shirt
booth -- at least that's what my friend was telling me):
vocals/synth/samples/computer (Eye), and three drummers (Yoshimi, Eda and
Atr, I assume).

Despite the fact that the band involved three seated drummers and a
knob-twiddling Eye (he would shout into the mic every now and then), the
show was one of the more intense ones I've ever been to. They essentially
played one "song" for -- an hour? an hour and a half? I lost all track of
time -- pummeling the audience into a trance. Around 15 minutes into the
show Eye starts conducting the drummers in a lovely little cymbal interlude,
and then they go into full-tilt, high-speed, drum-circle mode, with Eye
jacking up the frequencies all through out.

Later,
Ben

http://members.tripod.com/~tamad2/
ICQ/AIM: thewilyfilipino / Yahoo!: sunny70


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dave Trenkel <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Previte/Frith/Some Questions
Date: 19 Mar 2002 10:36:20 -0800

At 8:59 AM -0800 3/19/2002, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:
>On Mon, 18 Mar 2002 21:28:27 +0100
>=?Windows-1252?Q?Efr=E9n_del_Valle?= wrote:
>>
>>  I'd like to add to those who recommended Bobby Previte's "The 23
>>  Constellations of Joan Miro". I've never really been into Previte's
>>  compositional style - although I never heard his Avant release, which is
>>  supposed to be one of his best works to date- [...]
>
>You mean SLAY THE SUITORS? That's strange, because it is usually fairly down
>the list of top Previte records. IMHO, not to the level of excitement of the
>Gramavision/Enja material.
>
>Maybe some people mention it because it is hard to find and we all know that
>the hard to find records are the best :-).
>
I've always like "Slay the Suitors" quite a lot, it seems to have
more of a live band in a room feel than some of Previte's other
projects. It may not be his strongest disc, but it's one of my
favorites.

--
Dave Trenkel                                New and Improv Music
http://www.newandimprov.com         [e-mail]


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: fractal music?
Date: 19 Mar 2002 10:32:16 -0800

on 3/19/02 10:00 AM, Patrice L. Roussel at [e-mail] wrote:

> And we are supposed to see K8 and Wuorinen on the same level, right?
>
> If she can dismiss Wuorinen's music so easily based on what she calls B.S.
> (his
> use of fractals, I suppose), I would expect similar intellectual rigor from
> her part concerning her approach using Godel's theorem(s) and Julia's
> fractals.
> From an outsider, Wuorinen's timid attempt looks like cream to me :-). I
> definitely see B.S., but not in Wuorinen's work.
>
> For someone who has exhibited recently such little pity for what many consider
> as heros (with of course the usual IMHO, which allows to say the meanest
> things
> and covering his ass at the same time), why such a sudden rash of indulgence
> for K8?
>
> Patrice.

If Wourinen -- or Lou Reed or Ornette Coleman -- was a participant in this
list, your point would be salient.  They can be praised or damned and it's
nothing personal.  But if they were participants on this list, they would
rate the same manners as anyone else when it comes down to personally
calling someone's output on the carpet, which is something that is out of
bounds.

skip h


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: fractal music?
Date: 19 Mar 2002 10:39:24 -0800


On Tue, 19 Mar 2002 10:32:16 -0800  skip Heller wrote:
>
> If Wourinen -- or Lou Reed or Ornette Coleman -- was a participant in this
> list, your point would be salient.  They can be praised or damned and it's
> nothing personal.  But if they were participants on this list, they would
> rate the same manners as anyone else when it comes down to personally
> calling someone's output on the carpet, which is something that is out of
> bounds.

Are you trying to say that by simply being part of a mailing list you get
total immunity? That you can diss anybody as long as they are dead or not
on the list (with the careful sprinkling of IMHO)?

    Thanks for the clarification,

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: fractal "musik"...
Date: 19 Mar 2002 13:39:57 EST

i'll jump in.

i'm no great mathematician.  i don't pretend to be.  but i, as many of my friends and colleagues, use mathematics as a means to an aesthetic end.  i have found that wuorinen's music uses mathematics as the basis for a specific idiom, and not to produce interesting results within a more acceptable aesthetic.

i, as many, do not find wuorinen's music to be aesthetically pleasing.  and gauging from your comment, i'm not entirely sure you're familiar with his output.  i say this because you readily defended him, not something many people do except for the sake of argument, because it is widely accepted that his music is shit and the concept is interesting.

on that note, you haven't heard my music either, and i think it's pretty amusing that you'd see fit to make an aesthetic judgement call on it.

so maybe you ought to throw some of your output onto the table of public opinion so we can be as nasty to you publicly as you are to so many of us.

love,
  k8.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Kurt Gottschalk" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fwd: christine bard 3/23 at the brecht
Date: 19 Mar 2002 18:51:48 +0000


>Neues Kabarett presents:
>Christine Bard
>with dancers Deborah Stamos and Marija Krtolica
>
>Saturday, March 23
>9 pm SHARP
>doors open 8:30
>$8
>at The Brecht Forum/122 W. 27th Street, 10th Floor
>between 6th and 7th Avenues
>F or C/E train to 23rd St.; 1/9 train to 28th St.
>
>Neues Kabarett is thrilled to welcome Christine Bard
>back to the Brecht Forum. Bard will perform soundscape
>(pre-made and live processed), solo drums and
>percussion. She will be joined by dancers Deborah
>Stamos and Marija Krtolica, who will be seen shadow
>dancing and will join Bard in improvisational trios
>with dance and percussion.
>
>
>
>_____________________________________________________________
>Get a free "Jump Mail" account.
>Free e-mail for artists & art lovers!
>Log on to http://JumpArts.org
>
>_____________________________________________________________
>Run a small business? Then you need professional email like [e-mail]
>from Everyone.net  http://www.everyone.net?tag


_________________________________________________________________
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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "s~Z" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: fractal "musik"...
Date: 19 Mar 2002 10:52:00 -0800

>>>i say this because you readily defended him, not something many
people do except for the sake of argument, because it is widely
accepted that his music is shit and the concept is interesting.<<<

Whew!


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: fractal "musik"...
Date: 19 Mar 2002 13:51:02 -0600

On Tue, Mar 19, 2002 at 01:39:57PM -0500, [e-mail] wrote:

> i, as many, do not find wuorinen's music to be aesthetically pleasing.  and gauging from your comment, i'm not entirely sure you're familiar with his output.  i say this because you readily defended him, not something many people do except for the sake of argument, because it is widely accepted that his music is shit and the concept is interesting.

"widely accepted" by whom? While I find much of his stuff uninvolving,
the Percussion Concerto rocks, and I find the "Mass for the
Restoration of St Luke's in the Field" beautiful. If you haven't heard
these, hunt them down. I believe they're both in print.

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: fractal music?
Date: 19 Mar 2002 11:16:01 -0800

on 3/19/02 10:39 AM, Patrice L. Roussel at [e-mail] wrote:


> Are you trying to say that by simply being part of a mailing list you get
> total immunity? That you can diss anybody as long as they are dead or not
> on the list (with the careful sprinkling of IMHO)?
>
> Thanks for the clarification,
>
> Patrice.
>
In a word, yes.  When you're talking about someone's work in a non-personal
sense, that's one thing.  Then you can debate the merits of their work as
you wish, and nobody's personal feelings are on the chopping block because
the merits of the thing in question are not really of personal import to
anyone.  To level a personal attack on someone in the (virtual) room is
another matter, and nothing is more personal to creative people than the
stuff they create.  As I said before, I would leave my opinions to myself if
it meant hurting the feelings of someone in on the discussion.  If Lou Reed
was a zorn-lister, I would not say a word (as I have not when I have been in
a room with Lou Reed).

I don't agree with Kate about a lot of things she holds dear, and, on those
subjects, I feel okay saying I don't agree with her.  But to call her work
-- or anybody's with whom I am having a discussion --  into question because
I don't agree with her opinion is something with which I would not feel
right.  It certainly doesn't elevate the status of the person presenting the
argument.

skip h


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "john schuller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Timothy Young / Keith Lowe
Date: 19 Mar 2002 11:29:16 -0800

"I thought they were competent players, but not outstanding.
Maybe Sylvian never gave them the opportunity to bring something personal to
the music."--

Exactly. Timothy Young is in my opinion the "BEST" living guitarist. I would
have to recommend seeing him live in Zony Mash for his best playing. Luckily
there is a live Zony Mash album coming out next week!(the studio albums
never seem to do him justice). Also please check out his solo album "With
Very Special People" on Endless Records. www.endlessrecords.com it is one of
the greatest albums ever released. You can find more of his music at
www.veryspecialforces.com this is his twisted pop music band
VSF(unfortunatly they no longer exist)....

Keith Lowe is the shit. That is all I can say about him. He is everywhere.
There must be 5 or 6 Keith Lowe's....you can find out about all of his
projects at www.moonliner.com

John Schuller
www.johnschuller.da.ru

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "s~Z" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: fractal music?
Date: 19 Mar 2002 11:54:15 -0800

>>>As I said before, I would leave my opinions to myself if
it meant hurting the feelings of someone in on the discussion.<<<

Well, I'm sitting here in tears, so back off.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: fractal music?
Date: 19 Mar 2002 12:02:36 -0800


    Skip,

    You are too nice. You seem to assume that simply because somebody
expresses his/her opinions on a mailing list, they automatically deserve top
respect. I totally disagree with that. I do not see anything special about
mailing lists (and certainly do not consider them as "little villages") and
I tend to be irritated at people who try to use them as a tribune to inflate
their sense (rarely shared) of self-importance.

    Bottom line (for me at least): on one side a composer who has
something to put on the table (regardless of what you think of him), on the
other a young aspiring composer who feels intitled to dismiss the older one
and have not proven anything yet (I can't remember anybody on this list
expressing an opinion that might trigger a vague remote attempt at checking
her out). Sorry, but I side with the old composer, one of the least reasons
being that he has better things to do than lurking on this mailing list.

    Sorry if I destroy your sense of conviviality,

    Patrice.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: fractal music?
Date: 19 Mar 2002 12:17:20 -0800

on 3/19/02 12:02 PM, Patrice L. Roussel at [e-mail] wrote:

>
> Skip,
>
> You are too nice. You seem to assume that simply because somebody
> expresses his/her opinions on a mailing list, they automatically deserve top
> respect.

I think everybody deserves the same respect.


> I totally disagree with that. I do not see anything special about
> mailing lists (and certainly do not consider them as "little villages") and
> I tend to be irritated at people who try to use them as a tribune to inflate
> their sense (rarely shared) of self-importance.

I agree with you to a point.  But I think mailing lists should be held to
the same manners as any other social setting.

> Bottom line (for me at least): on one side a composer who has
> something to put on the table (regardless of what you think of him), on the
> other a young aspiring composer who feels intitled to dismiss the older one
> and have not proven anything yet (I can't remember anybody on this list
> expressing an opinion that might trigger a vague remote attempt at checking
> her out). Sorry, but I side with the old composer, one of the least reasons
> being that he has better things to do than lurking on this mailing list.

I don't think you need a track record in a given field in order to decide
whether or not you percieve something as fraudulent.  Similarly, I think you
are allowed to say you think something is fraudulent without being subjected
to a personal attack.


> Sorry if I destroy your sense of conviviality,

It's less conviviality than the fact that, the less time people spend
defending their right to an opinion, the more you get to hear different
opinions and information.  Call it enlightened self-interest on my part.
The arguments are only interesting to me in that they bring different points
of view to the party.  When it gets down to "You don't have the right to
render a negative opinion of [insert name] because you don't have the track
record", it impedes the flow of information.

As for how valuable the time is spent on a mailing list, you could do worse
than to keep yourself plugged into an enlightened consumer group.  Some of
us do a lot of mailing list time and also manage to generate enough music to
feel okay with our output.

skip h


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: duncan youngerman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: fractal music?
Date: 19 Mar 2002 21:23:52 +0100



UFOrbK8@aol=2Ecom a =E9crit :

> In a message dated 03=2E19=2E02 06=2E17=2E43, tp=2Eschakenbos@wanadoo=2Enl=
 writes:
>
> >Fractal music!? Are there bands around trying this out? I only am aware
> >of the visual fractals=2E
>
> i certainly don't know of any bands who are using fractal business, but th=
ere
> is a wide array of composers (perhaps i should use the term lightly, here)
> who use fractal mathematics and chaos theory principles to generate sound=
=2E  i
> personally do not generally like the random soundbursts that this creates=
=2E=2E=2E
> charles wuorinen is probably the largest proponent of this b=2Es=2E i can =
think
> of=2E=2E=2E

I know Ligeti's been very influenced by fractal maths and visuals & chaos th=
eory
for the past 20 years, with amazing musical results (Piano Etudes, Piano
Concerto, Violin Concerto, to mention a few)=2E
Key French composers such as G=E9rard Grisey, Tristan Murail, Pascal Dusapin=
 and
others have also been involved with that stuff for years as well, with
impressive results=2E
Xenakis in his own way as well=2E

(=2E=2E=2ENot =2E=2E=2Eexactly=2E=2E=2E=2E b=2Es=2E)

D=2E



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: fractal music?
Date: 19 Mar 2002 12:38:53 -0800


On Tue, 19 Mar 2002 12:17:20 -0800  skip Heller wrote:
>
> > You are too nice. You seem to assume that simply because somebody
> > expresses his/her opinions on a mailing list, they automatically deserve top
> > respect.
>
> I think everybody deserves the same respect.

Typical statement that is easy to say, hard to apply. Sorry, but few of us
are Mother Theresa.

I totally disagreee. I think that people should only get the respect that
they deserve (which is very different), and sure, we are likely to disagree
with the criteria. Respect is something that you win.

What everybody deserves is that you pay attention to what they say before you
start to know them. After that, based on your opinion and your level of
indulgence or patience, respect can grow or not.

I am wondering if we have the same meaning for the word respect. Am I supposed
to believe that you have the same respect for Uri Caine and Ornette Coleman? It
is hard to believe based on what you said on the latter.

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "s~Z" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: fractal music?
Date: 19 Mar 2002 12:48:26 -0800

>>>Wuorinen's B.S.? Where does this put your own stuff?<<<

Not the most vicious personal attack I've seen recently.

And so what if it alters the flow so that K8 can say more about
what she does and why she thinks it, as opposed to Wuorinen's
oeuvre, is not BS? If K8 stands on ground which gives her the
right to pronounce Wuorinen BS, surely it is no big deal for her
to speak about her own aesthetic and its merits. Perhaps Skip's
'defense' is motivated by presuppositions about K8 and her art
that are not really all that flattering.



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: fractal music?
Date: 19 Mar 2002 13:04:01 -0800

on 3/19/02 12:38 PM, Patrice L. Roussel at [e-mail] wrote:

>
> On Tue, 19 Mar 2002 12:17:20 -0800  skip Heller wrote:
>>
>>> You are too nice. You seem to assume that simply because somebody
>>> expresses his/her opinions on a mailing list, they automatically deserve top
>>> respect.
>>
>> I think everybody deserves the same respect.
>
> Typical statement that is easy to say, hard to apply. Sorry, but few of us
> are Mother Theresa.

You give my aims credit for far too much humanity, but on the other hand, I
am far from cynical.  I tend to assume that people are credible until they
prove me wrong.  They do, often enough.

> I totally disagreee. I think that people should only get the respect that
> they deserve (which is very different), and sure, we are likely to disagree
> with the criteria. Respect is something that you win.

Actually, I am of the opinion that respect is something that you lose.  I
try to govern myself of the principal that everyone starts out worthy of
respect, until they prove themselves idiotic.


> I am wondering if we have the same meaning for the word respect. Am I supposed
> to believe that you have the same respect for Uri Caine and Ornette Coleman?
> It
> is hard to believe based on what you said on the latter.

Loaded  question -- I've never thrown up in front of Ornette Coleman, and
the gentlemanly comportment with which Uri handled the situation only served
to enforce my respect.

Actually, that's too glib.  Let me put it is this way -- when I first read
and heard about Ornette and took note of the stature accorded him by a
certain segment of critical and musical community, I felt respectful enough
to go out and buy, in one shot, all the Atlantic albums, because I felt that
it was warranted.  We all know the feeling I came away with after that.  So
I guess you could say he lost my respect.  I take those albums out every so
often to re-examine them in hopes that he will win back my respect, but
that's not how it's gone.

skip h


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Kurt Gottschalk" <[e-mail]>
Subject: items on ebay
Date: 19 Mar 2002 21:01:31 +0000

pardon my crassness, but i've got a few things up on ebay. selling things
off to raise a guarantee for an upcoming show. check 'em out.

thanks,

kurt

852855334 blind idiot god "cyclotron" (avant)
852852787 mike boner, danny cohen, horsecock kids "self indulgent music"
(tzadik)
851639958 tricky "nearly god"
851633499 v/a "out of their mouths m2k" atavistic 2cd comp w/vandermark,
alan licht, lee ranaldo, elliot sharp, mx-80, others.

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: fractal music?
Date: 19 Mar 2002 13:09:15 -0800

on 3/19/02 12:48 PM, s~Z at [e-mail] wrote:

>
> Not the most vicious personal attack I've seen recently.
>
> And so what if it alters the flow so that K8 can say more about
> what she does and why she thinks it, as opposed to Wuorinen's
> oeuvre, is not BS? If K8 stands on ground which gives her the
> right to pronounce Wuorinen BS, surely it is no big deal for her
> to speak about her own aesthetic and its merits. Perhaps Skip's
> 'defense' is motivated by presuppositions about K8 and her art
> that are not really all that flattering.
>

No, they're founded on the fact that, whether or not syhe is a composer, she
has the right to render an opinion without taking on personal attacks.  I
have no presupposition about Kate's output, except that it probably doesn't
reach out to my personal aesthetic.

skip h


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: fractal music?
Date: 19 Mar 2002 13:14:42 -0800


On Tue, 19 Mar 2002 13:09:15 -0800  skip Heller wrote:
>
> No, they're founded on the fact that, whether or not syhe is a composer, she
> has the right to render an opinion without taking on personal attacks.  I
> have no presupposition about Kate's output, except that it probably doesn't
> reach out to my personal aesthetic.

Because "Wuorinen's B.S." is the kind of balanced and sophisticated opinion
we long for on this list.

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: fractal music?
Date: 19 Mar 2002 13:25:04 -0800

on 3/19/02 1:06 PM, s~Z at [e-mail] wrote:

>>>> I have no presupposition about Kate's output, except that it
> probably doesn't
> reach out to my personal aesthetic.<<<
>
> If K8 had spoken in the manner in which you just spoke, she
> wouldn't have attracted the attack.
>
> She pronounced someone's art, bullshit.
>
>
>
There's a quantity of difference between saying "your opinion doesn't seem
well-rendered or even articulate" and ""Oh yeah, let ME judge YOUR work",
and that's the distinction I am making.

skip h


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Dave Smey" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: fractal music?
Date: 19 Mar 2002 17:20:39 -0500

>
> Bottom line (for me at least): on one side a composer who has
> something to put on the table (regardless of what you think of him),

So what, exactly, does this mean?  ("regardless of what you think of him"?)
Wuorinen seems to attract frequent, sharp criticism because he is fairly
prolific and still frequently performed (with some major accolades in the
bad old days), but the works are somewhat boring.  (Even the only real W
booster here, Joseph Zitt, admits that he "finds much of his stuff
uninvolving.")  In checking him out I was pleasantly surprised that the
music didn't sound like *total* shit (contrary to his bad rep) but still it
was hard to hear what earns him his frequent programming.  Such phenomena
will inspire bitter complaints.

> on the
> other a young aspiring composer who feels [e]ntitled to dismiss the older
one
> and have not proven anything yet

young enough to still be in school, actually.  How many grad students have
you already heard about?

K8's opinion, while not particularly subtle or substantiated, makes more
sense to me than your mindless appeal to status.

- Dave Smey
Ph.D. Candidate, CUNY Grad Center
(still unpublished, so I guess I also don't count.  why don't you just bar
me from the list until I beef up my CV.)




(I can't remember anybody on this list
> expressing an opinion that might trigger a vague remote attempt at
checking
> her out). Sorry, but I side with the old composer, one of the least
reasons
> being that he has better things to do than lurking on this mailing list.
>
> Sorry if I destroy your sense of conviviality,
>
> Patrice.
>
>
> -
>


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: dIRTYlAUNDRY (was Re: fractal music? )
Date: 19 Mar 2002 17:22:57 EST

a public airing.

dear patrice,

i would just like to inquire as to why you feel the need to air your dirty (elitist, annoying, mean) laundry on this list.  i think i speak for quite a few people as to wondering why you take up so much of our bandwith with your glib one word responses to emails which are presupposed to be witty but are really ill-conceived and just downright silly.

love,
  kate.

p.s. - be looking for a performance piece...  <tangelos?>

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: fractal music?
Date: 19 Mar 2002 14:27:17 -0800


On Tue, 19 Mar 2002 17:20:39 -0500  "Dave Smey" wrote:
>
> young enough to still be in school, actually.  How many grad students have
> you already heard about?
>
> K8's opinion, while not particularly subtle or substantiated, makes more
> sense to me than your mindless appeal to status.

Appeal to status... I sincerely wish that in thirty years you will have that
dilemma (instead of being one more casualty of a system that can survive
without you).

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: zorn?
Date: 19 Mar 2002 17:29:01 EST

uh - so you think we will ever discuss zorn on here?

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: dIRTYlAUNDRY (was Re: fractal music? )
Date: 19 Mar 2002 14:29:10 -0800


On Tue, 19 Mar 2002 17:22:57 EST  [e-mail] wrote:
>
> a public airing.
>
> dear patrice,
>
> i would just like to inquire as to why you feel the need to air your
> dirty (elitist, annoying, mean) laundry on this list.  i think i speak for
> quite a few people as to wondering why you take up so much of our bandwith

At least we have that in common :-).

    Patrice.

> with your glib one word responses to emails which are presupposed to be
> witty but are really ill-conceived and just downright silly.



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: original non-remastered cd's, Was: Re: eno & remastering
Date: 18 Mar 2002 23:49:27 -0800

on 3/18/02 2:39 AM, Remco Takken at [e-mail] wrote:

> On the 'old' Kind of Blue cd, there's almost no hiss, and the sound is
> really warm. However, the de-noiser studio system was used so extensively,
> that even Jimmy Cobb's brushes were removed from one track. I have no idea
> if they were considered as 'hiss', or that this Dolby machine decided to
> cancel that sound.

With systems like Sonic Solutions, the way to cancel out noise relies
largely on the system being able to recognize noise.  Often, the engineer
will run about three seconds of hiss from the source tape so the system can
learn the undesirable sound, and the system recognizes that sound at that
frequency as undesirable and as such cancels it.  Unfortunately, drum
brushes on a jazz ballad have really similar charactaristics as hiss.

skip h






-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: fractal music?
Date: 19 Mar 2002 17:22:17 -0600

On Tue, Mar 19, 2002 at 12:38:53PM -0800, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:

> I totally disagreee. I think that people should only get the respect that
> they deserve (which is very different), and sure, we are likely to disagree
> with the criteria. Respect is something that you win.

No. Respect is something that you lose. An appropriate ethical stance
*begins* with respect for all as a default, until proven otherwise.

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: zorn?
Date: 19 Mar 2002 17:43:12 -0500

I maintain that *everything* we discuss here -- from fractals to death metal to Latina pop -- is a meta-discussion of Zorn.

You wanna talk about Zorn, pick a topic and let's go...

Steve Smith
[e-mail]
NP - Frank Bridge, 'Isabella' - BBC Natl Orch of Wales / Hickox (Chandos)

[e-mail] wrote:
> uh - so you think we will ever discuss zorn on here?
-



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Matthew W Wirzbicki  (S)" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: zorn?
Date: 19 Mar 2002 15:43:42 -0700



will we discuss Zorn?

maybe you could check out the archives as Zorn has been discussed quite
frequently (sorry not to have actual dates but I think the subject headers
will help).  Actually, when the last public clash of opinion occured,
discussion drifed toward Zorn in a manner the likes of which I haven't seen
in the four or so years I've been subscribed and not contributing much of
value here.

Within all the other non-zorn posts you might learn about some music, ideas,
literature etc....which were totally unknown to you and prove very
interesting.


Matt


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: dIRTYlAUNDRY (was Re: fractal music? )
Date: 19 Mar 2002 17:34:11 -0600

On Tue, Mar 19, 2002 at 05:22:57PM -0500, [e-mail] wrote:

> p.s. - be looking for a performance piece...  <tangelos?>

Ah, I love Tangelos, especially the Blade Runner soundtrack.

:-)

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Mike Rizzi <[e-mail]>
Subject: Personal Attacks (Re: fractal music?)
Date: 19 Mar 2002 14:48:11 -0800 (PST)

    I direct all of your attention to the zorn-list guidelines:

    "Courtesy: To make this mailing list useful for the
    greatest number of people, please treat your fellow
    list members with courtesy. Please refrain from actions
    that would detract from the value of the list for
    other members. "

    and

    "DO treat every post as though you were sending a copy
    to your boss, your minister, and your worst enemy."

    Obviously, I wasn't clear last month. Let me try again.

    ***Personal attacks will not be tolerated on the zorn-list.***

    I consider the following a personal attack that warrants a warning.

>Wuorinen's B.S.? Where does is put your own stuff?

    Let's play nice people. If you don't like
    someone, KEEP IT TO YOUR FUCKING SELF.
    I really don't want to forcibly remove someone
    from the list.  Comprende?

    sigh,
    mike
    zorn-list-maintainer-comma-den-mother-and-fascist


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: RE: Sharrock Inquiry
Date: 19 Mar 2002 17:52:01 -0500

I agree wholeheartedly with everything Sean said here, and I'd add that you should also hear Pharoah Sanders' 'Tauhid,' on which Sharrock plays a major role (and it's just great music besides). It makes a nice bookend to 'Ask the Ages,' and there's all kinds of great stuff in between.

Anyone know if they've found any Sharrock outtakes from 'Jack Johnson' for the upcoming box set?

Steve Smith
[e-mail]
NP - Frank Bridge, Two Poems for Orchestra - BBC Natl Orch Wales / Hickox (Chandos)

Sean Westergaard <[e-mail]> wrote:
> >What are some good settings to listen to Sonny Sharrock?  Groups orindividual
>albums. Thanks.

start with Guitar for solo action and the amazingly beautiful Ask the ages
with Pharoah Sanders and Elvin Jones.  for a more rock-style fix, check out
Seize the Rainbow.  stay clear of live in NYC.  for a more serious sonic
assault, try Last Exit.

sean

ask the ages is THE place to start






-



-



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Matthew W Wirzbicki  (S)" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: dIRTYlAUNDRY (was Re: fractal music? )
Date: 19 Mar 2002 15:52:15 -0700


Kate to Patrice:
>clip<
wondering why you take up so much of our
bandwith with your glib one word responses to emails which are
presupposed to be witty but are really ill-conceived and just downright
silly.

be looking for a performance piece
>clip<

Is this intended to be contradictory?
critical comments about ill-conceived, silly wastes of bandwith followed by
a threat/promise to behave in sed manner?

Matt

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Personal Attacks (Re: fractal music?)
Date: 19 Mar 2002 15:03:48 -0800


On Tue, 19 Mar 2002 14:48:11 -0800 (PST)  Mike Rizzi wrote:
>
>     I direct all of your attention to the zorn-list guidelines:
>
>     "Courtesy: To make this mailing list useful for the
>     greatest number of people, please treat your fellow
>     list members with courtesy. Please refrain from actions
>     that would detract from the value of the list for
>     other members. "

I sincerely doubt that the actual thread prevents people from posting
interesting Zorn stuff.

I have just noticed that between two Tzadik batches, some of us tend to
be restless and indulge in some squirmishes.

If the lurkers are so desperate for Zorn material, they should start to
get out of the consummer seat (to say it nicely) and participate (for
a change).

> >Wuorinen's B.S.? Where does is put your own stuff?
>
>     Let's play nice people. If you don't like
>     someone, KEEP IT TO YOUR FUCKING SELF.
>     I really don't want to forcibly remove someone
>     from the list.  Comprende?

Mike, you know that it is likely to repeat (although I will try my best...),
if you are really serious about that point, you might better remove me from
the list right away (for the little that I contribute these days it won't
be a loss and will make the list more cosy).

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Tal G." <[e-mail]>
Subject: From "The Onion"
Date: 20 Mar 2002 01:02:50 +0200

Atonal Composers Gather For Atony Awards

HOLLYWOOD, CA

The recording industry's top atonal composers gathered in Los Angeles Monday
for the gala seventh annual Atony Awards.

"Tonight is hostile music's biggest night," said Krzysztof Penderecki,
nominee in the Most Dissonant Piece category. "I can't tell you what a
thrill it is to be here, surrounded by so many legends of arrhythmic
cacophony."

The highlight of the evening is expected to be the awarding of the Olivier
Messiaen Lifetime Achievement Award to Karlheinz Stockhausen for "more than
five decades of aggressively impenetrable anti-music."



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: rebuttal
Date: 19 Mar 2002 18:22:01 EST

look i understand there is plenty of worth while info and discussion about
music and yes even a little john zorn on the list. i was joking around
because i thought it was getting a bit out of hand with this whole who
respects who blah blah blah discussion.

my apologies to the list.

-mike

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: dIRTYlAUNDRY (was Re: fractal music? )
Date: 19 Mar 2002 15:37:15 -0800


On Tue, 19 Mar 2002 17:22:57 EST  [e-mail] wrote:
>
> i would just like to inquire as to why you feel the need to air your dirty
> (elitist, annoying, mean) laundry on this list.  i think i speak for quite a

Elitist? That's really funny. This is the Zorn mailing list, right? Who is
Zorn? One of the most amazing composer/musician to pop up on the music scene
in the past twenty years. I can barely imagine another artist who is such in
control of his career (Breuker, maybe). Zorn does not come up with questions,
but with solutions. In a genre where there is so much whinning, he just does
and usually succeeds. It is as if he could pick up any genre, work on it for
a few months, and start a project that would baffle everybody (like he did
with Masada). It is hard to think of somebody more talented in his field
(quite large in fact since he operates in so many genres), and he is defini-
tely the proof that you can make a living without prostituting your art.

In short, this is a list named after somebody quite exceptional. Elitist?
Maybe, but discovering somebody like Zorn in the early eighties does not
leave a lot of room for something else. And I guess that other people are
on this list for similar reasons (and not for it becoming a forum for
amateurs desperatly looking for an audience). If you call that elitism,
that's fine with me.

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: James Miller <[e-mail]>
Subject: I know we've talked about HipHop a lot, but...
Date: 19 Mar 2002 17:59:36 -0600 (CST)

Zorn people:

Not long ago there was a discussion on this list about recent, more
adventurous hiphop records (Cannibal Ox, Clouddead, that sort of thing).
As usual, I took the suggestions very seriously, went out and bought a lot
of this stuff: it's AMAZING.

So anyway, I want to investigate further, and have some open-ended
questions:

Where do I go to hear the roots of modern hip hop? What are the original
classic records? How to get a sense of the big picture: influences,
scenes, regional dialects (so to speak), that sort of thing. I started out
with punk as a kid and could talk all day about the various pieces of the
punk puzzle; I'd like to be able to do the same for this stuff.

Has anybody written anything interesting on the subject? It could be
academic sort of stuff, or something more personal/idiosyncratic?

Thanks in advance to our music scholars,

Andy


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: dIRTYlAUNDRY (was Re: fractal music? )
Date: 19 Mar 2002 16:26:29 -0800

on 3/19/02 3:37 PM, Patrice L. Roussel at [e-mail] wrote:


> Maybe, but discovering somebody like Zorn in the early eighties does not
> leave a lot of room for something else.

You're right -- that's not elitism.  That's monochromaticism.  I'm pretty
sure Zorn would say something to the effect of "Make room for everything you
can get your hands on".  It's certainly been his practice, and he must be
spending more time making things than any of us is spending listening to the
things he makes.

> And I guess that other people are
> on this list for similar reasons (and not for it becoming a forum for
> amateurs desperatly looking for an audience).

who are these amatuers?

skip h


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: dIRTYlAUNDRY (was Re: fractal music? )
Date: 19 Mar 2002 19:52:04 -0600

On Tue, Mar 19, 2002 at 03:37:15PM -0800, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:

> In short, this is a list named after somebody quite exceptional. Elitist?
> Maybe, but discovering somebody like Zorn in the early eighties does not
> leave a lot of room for something else. And I guess that other people are
> on this list for similar reasons (and not for it becoming a forum for
> amateurs desperatly looking for an audience). If you call that elitism,
> that's fine with me.

I doubt that the act of shutting off one's ears based on deciding that
one has found a favorite artist can be called a good thing.

As Schoenberg said, there's a lot of good music yet to be written in C
major.

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: I know we've talked about HipHop a lot, but...
Date: 19 Mar 2002 19:33:29 EST

of course everyone knows about the sugar hill gang and "rapper's delight" but
i think the more important innovators of the original form of hip hop were
Grand Master Flash. they were more than just a one hit wonder unlike sugar
hill.

after that the most important records (in my opinion) would be:

Run DMC's - raising hell
Public Enemy's - it takes a nation of millions to hold us back (this was the
first to really push the sonic envelope and tempo to where it's at today.
PE's stuff from way back then is still way ahead of the times - not to
mention it was the first to have truly important lyrical subjects)
Beastie Boys - license to ill (yes it was an important record! though very
similar to raising hell thanks to rick rubin's production on both albums).

but definatley check out Gtrand Master Flash and the Furious Five - "greatest
messages"

-mike (i too was weened on punk and death metal - but this is what i've
discovered with my own research) - hope that helps.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "William York" <[e-mail]>
Subject: ornette reissues on blue note
Date: 20 Mar 2002 00:35:55

hi,

has anyone heard the new/recent RVG-series reissues of the ornette trio's
golden circle discs on blue note? if so, any commentary on the bonus
material, improvement in sound quality, etc.?

thanks in advance,

wy



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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: I know we've talked about HipHop a lot, but...
Date: 19 Mar 2002 17:29:45 -0800

For me, the big ones are PE's FEAR OF A BLACK PLANET, De La Soul's  3 FEET
HIGH AND RISING, and GRANDMASTER FLASH GREATEST MESSAGES.

skip h


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: re: hiphop
Date: 19 Mar 2002 20:33:49 EST

my favorite hip hop cd's would be It takes a Nation of Millions and
Wu Tang's Enter the Wu-Tang/36 Chambers

Seth

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "john schuller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: How Come?
Date: 19 Mar 2002 17:43:31 -0800

How come Zorn has categories in the Tzadik catalog that are
race/religion/gender based? I can understand the Composer series/Film
Series/Key Series...but what gives with the Jewish/Woman/Asian series?

Curious,
John Schuller

_________________________________________________________________
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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: How Come?
Date: 19 Mar 2002 20:46:23 -0600

On Tue, Mar 19, 2002 at 05:43:31PM -0800, john schuller wrote:

> How come Zorn has categories in the Tzadik catalog that are
> race/religion/gender based? I can understand the Composer series/Film
> Series/Key Series...but what gives with the Jewish/Woman/Asian series?

It's probably to focus attention on groups which either represent
particular viewpoints (the Radical Jewish Culture series) or groups,
such as women and Asian composers whom he sees as underrepresented in
other recordings.

Or maybe just because he feels like it :-)

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Thomas Choate <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: FW: RE: Quine Tapes
Date: 19 Mar 2002 19:12:12 -0800 (PST)

us?).  anyone with a
> different take on live
> Velvets?
>
> sean
>
i always heard that live was the velvet's thing.
when warhol 'produced' them they were (in a show)
"exploding plastic inevitable" ...lights and name tags
of names not belonging to the owners....movies...
or maybe andy did it b/c they were that 'outrageous'
live.
but i have no experience with the VU

amor fati,
sq thom

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - live college hoops coverage
http://sports.yahoo.com/

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Caleb T. Deupree" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: OLIVER JOHNSON
Date: 19 Mar 2002 22:16:54 -0500

Here's an article from Agence France Presse:

Homeless man arrested for death of US jazz drummer Oliver Johnson

PARIS, March 19

A homeless man has been arrested in Paris for the death of a US jazz
musician, Oliver Johnson, whose body was found on a park bench in the city
earlier this month, French police said Tuesday.

Investigators said they believed the man, whom they did not identify, had
gotten into a drunken row with Johnson and beaten him to death. Johnson,
born in Oakland, California, on December 5, 1944, moved to Paris in the
1960s, where he became a mainstay of the free jazz movement. He played in
some of the capital's renowned nightspots up to a few years ago, but, for
unknown reasons, he had recently taken to living on the street.

When his body was discovered in the central Les Halles district on March 6,
police initially thought he had passed away of natural causes.

But an autopsy revealed his injuries and an investigation was started,
involving police talking to many night owls and homeless people before they
made their arrest last weekend.

Johnson was a respected drummer in a jazz movement which dispensed with
traditional notions of melody, harmony and rhythm, and which was often seen
as an offshoot of both the anti-Vietnam war and black civil rights
movements in the United States.

He performed with many well-known free jazz figures -- such as Anthony
Braxton, Sam Rivers and Archie Shepp -- as well as more mainstream
performers like George Duke and Johnny Griffin.

After his move to Paris he became a regular collaborator with saxophonist
Steve Lacy, another of the many US jazz musicians who relocated to the
French capital.

He played on Lacy's "Woe," one of the period's most outspoken anti-war jazz
albums, which included the sounds of actual explosions and a reading of
French writer Eugene Guillevic's poem "Massacres."


--

Caleb Deupree
[e-mail]

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Oger <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: OLIVER JOHNSON
Date: 20 Mar 2002 08:43:54 +0200

>
>From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
>
>    Yes, a really sad news.
>
>On Tue, 19 Mar 2002 19:05:38 +0200  Oger wrote:
>>
>>  Oliver Johnson, the drummer who played a long time with Steve Lacy
>>  was found dead some days ago in a Paris square. There is a police
>>  investigation. He seems to have been murdered.
>
>Jeff Beer (on r.m.b.) heard that he was beaten up to death by skinheads
>near Les Halles. Do you know where this is coming from?
>
>    Patrice.

Yes it's true. I saw Steve Lacy yesterday and he confirmed to me. I
don't have any details.
Oliver Johnson had many problems. He had no work and he was homeless.

Jacques


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: duncan youngerman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: From "The Onion"
Date: 20 Mar 2002 09:05:57 +0100

What a sad self-depreciating ghetto mentality is displayed here!
(whether it's a joke or whether it's for real=2E)
Reminds me of the American Atheist organisation=2E=2E=2E

D=2E

"Tal G=2E" a =E9crit :

> Atonal Composers Gather For Atony Awards
>
> HOLLYWOOD, CA
>
> The recording industry's top atonal composers gathered in Los Angeles Mond=
ay
> for the gala seventh annual Atony Awards=2E
>
> "Tonight is hostile music's biggest night," said Krzysztof Penderecki,
> nominee in the Most Dissonant Piece category=2E "I can't tell you what a
> thrill it is to be here, surrounded by so many legends of arrhythmic
> cacophony=2E"
>
> The highlight of the evening is expected to be the awarding of the Olivier
> Messiaen Lifetime Achievement Award to Karlheinz Stockhausen for "more tha=
n
> five decades of aggressively impenetrable anti-music=2E"
>
> -


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: From "The Onion"
Date: 20 Mar 2002 03:28:44 EST

   anything is that is, was, or will ever be printed in the onion article
wise is of course a JOKE! - those who are upset by this supposed
self-degrading joke of an article are taking themselves way too seriously and
have no identifiable sense of humor.

    i thought the article was witty and it cleverly poked fun at people - not
unlike some on this list - who take all things music too serious. i love john
zorn to death, i think he's an absolute genius, but i've encountered some
types that would buy an album of him farting and belching profusely and then
discuss how well he blended the two styles together and or his brilliantly
suttle use of dynamics in the first movement. get the point?

someones new enemy - mike

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: From "The Onion"
Date: 20 Mar 2002 00:41:18 -0800

on 3/20/02 12:28 AM, [e-mail] at [e-mail] wrote:

> anything is that is, was, or will ever be printed in the onion article
> wise is of course a JOKE! - those who are upset by this supposed
> self-degrading joke of an article are taking themselves way too seriously and
> have no identifiable sense of humor.
>
> i thought the article was witty and it cleverly poked fun at people - not
> unlike some on this list - who take all things music too serious. i love john
> zorn to death, i think he's an absolute genius, but i've encountered some
> types that would buy an album of him farting and belching profusely and then
> discuss how well he blended the two styles together and or his brilliantly
> suttle use of dynamics in the first movement. get the point?
>
> someones new enemy - mike
>
> -
>
I keep waiting for The Onion to get around to the Black Country Music Awards
myself.  Lifetime Achievement Award to Charlie Pride.  And next -- uh-oh.

Incidentally, the Zorn bleching and farting remix project (with armpit
noises by Derek Bailey and Mark Feldman) is rumored to be powerful, moving,
above ridicule and makes a bold new statement about emission.  It is not to
be taken lightly, and I resent your levity about this matter.

skip h


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ronald Hiznay <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: "Zorn" List
Date: 20 Mar 2002 00:40:52 -0800 (PST)

You see the problem is one of semantics, there are
actually two different lists here one set of people
subscribes to the Zorn list, as in John Zorn list and
the other set of people subscribes to the Zorn list as
in "der Zorn" list.

mushmush

__________________________________________________
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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Efr=E9n=20del=20Valle?= <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fred Frith on W&W
Date: 20 Mar 2002 10:09:58 +0100 (CET)

Hi,

Yesterday someone asked for further info on the FF
record on W&W (sorry, I don't have the original
message now):

The line-up is FF on electric guitars, Miya Masaoka on
koto and electronics and Larry Ochs on sax. I don't
recall the title.

As to your question, I'd swear the album is 100%
lengthy improvisations (if there are notations,
they're too complex for me to pereceive them, I must
admit).

I'd really love to have more info...;-)

Greetings,

EfrΘn del Valle

_______________________________________________________________
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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Efr=E9n=20del=20Valle?= <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fwd: How Come?
Date: 20 Mar 2002 10:17:35 +0100 (CET)

Hi,
>
> How come Zorn has categories in the Tzadik catalog
> that are
> race/religion/gender based? I can understand the
> Composer series/Film
> Series/Key Series...but what gives with the
> Jewish/Woman/Asian series?
>
> Curious,
> John Schuller

The religious thing was laaargerly discussed here a
while ago. I don't see the problem in documenting a
particular ethnic/religious group on a music label if
said group is offering an interesting output. Of
course, doing this can be controversial and a bit
dangerous, as proved the arguments it raised when
discussed here (and probably elsewhere).
However, this leads again to the "Radical" term and in
which sense records like Tim Sparks' "Tanz" or
Jennifer Charles/Oren Bloedow "La Mar Enfortuna", for
instance, are RADICAL, or  what's the actual
contribution that Anthony Coleman's Selfhaters or
Ribot's Shrek live make to contemporary Jewish music
(aside of the fact that the performers are Jewish-...
some of them).

Best,

EfrΘn del Valle



_________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
> http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
>
>
> -
>

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Yahoo! Messenger
Comunicaci≤n instantßnea gratis con tu gente.
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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: skip's proven himself
Date: 20 Mar 2002 04:44:25 EST

well well well - skip has proven he is not without a sense of humor. thank
god

well done skip - mike

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Stephen Drury <[e-mail]>
Subject: summer new music festival in Boston
Date: 20 Mar 2002 07:36:30 -0500

Hello everyone -

Subscribers to this list - especially pianists - may be interested in the
new music workshops and concerts this summer which make up the Summer
Institute for Contemporary Piano Performance at New England Conservatory.
From June 24 to June 29, the week features daily workshops and masterclasses
led by internationally renowned musicians who have spent their lives
studying and performing contemporary music, along with free evening concerts
featuring music by Cage, Xenakis, Stockhausen, Ives, Feldman, Boulez, Crumb,
Scelsi, and other suspects. Students will have the opportunity to play for
and be coached by guest artists and faculty who have worked with many of the
great composers of our time.  (The program is also open to auditors who just
want to come, listen, learn and discuss.)  The week concludes on Saturday
with a concert of performances by students of the Institute.


    Summer Institute for Contemporary Piano Performance
    New England Conservatory, Boston, MA
    Monday, June 24  - Saturday, June 29, 2002

An intensive performance seminar on music of the twentieth century for
pianists of all levels.


Stephen Drury, Artistic Director
Faculty: John Mark Harris, Shannon Wettstein, Yukiko Takagi
Special guest artist:  Marc Ponthus
Featured guests:  Ensemble Sirius  (piano and percussion)



WORKSHOPS: The Institute will feature discussions and masterclasses (held
Monday thru Friday, June 24  to 28 from 10am to 1pm in Williams Hall at New
England Conservatory) on a broad range of modern repertoire for pianists and
percussionists, conducted by Stephen Drury and guest artists working with
the seminar participants. Every student will have an opportunity to perform
and be coached in masterclass.  Selected students will be asked to perform
on the final evening concert on Saturday June 29. We welcome the opportunity
to hear any contemporary music you may be performing. Auditors who do not
perform are also welcome. Repertoire suggestions are available at

http://www.stephendrury.com/SICPP/repertoire.htm


CONCERT SERIES: The Summer Institute for Contemporary Piano Performance will
present six evening concerts of modern music for piano.  All concerts are FREE!


HOUSING: Some housing may be available at a reduced rate if reserved early.
Please call 617-585-1126 for information.


COMPOSER IN RESIDENCE:  Dr. Linda Dusman from the University of Maryland
Baltimore County will be the 2002 Composer in Residence.

SICPP 2002 is open to intermediate and advanced students working at the
college level or higher.  In addition, we will again offer Introductory
SICPP for less experienced or younger students - and their teachers.  The
emphasis will be on "dipping your toes in the water", exploring some ways of
creating new and exciting sounds, and developing teaching tools to introduce
modern music at earlier stages.  Junior SICPP will meet in the afternoons;
participants may also attend morning classes. A list of suggested
compositions offering lesser technical demands is available at

http://www.stephendrury.com/SICPP/jrRepertoire.htm


To register, or for more information:

New England Conservatory School for Continuing Education
290 Huntington Ave., Boston, MA  02115
phone [phone]; fax [phone] (attn: Summer School)
http://www.stephendrury.com/SICPP/SICPP2002.htm


- Stephen Drury
Artistic Director, Summer Institute for Contemporary Piano Performance


--steve
info on SICPP 2002 now available at
http://www.stephendrury.com


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Sean Westergaard" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: RE: Sharrock Inquiry
Date: 20 Mar 2002 08:43:40 -0500




>Anyone know if they've found any Sharrock outtakes from 'Jack Johnson' for
the upcoming box set?

I haven't heard about Sharrock outtakes per se, but i did hear that the box
has been delayed because they found a bunch more unmarked tapes from the
sessions.

sean








-



-



-



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Taylor McLaren <[e-mail]>
Subject: ethiopiques/nerdy hip-hop
Date: 20 Mar 2002 09:16:26 -0500 (EST)

ETHIOPIQUES: I don't know what the situation is like back home, but
after being intrigued by the sound of the series a couple of weeks
back, I was happy to find that the series is widely distributed here
in Japan and can be found in good-sized chain stores (Virgin, etc.)
and even the corner-filling retail hovels that you can find in train
stations around Osaka. Heck, being imports, they're even relatively
cheap by local standards (usually in the 2000-yen range, or about
$16US), and I'm quite taken with the fourth one thus far... I know
it's the oddball of the litter, but still... it strikes me as being
the kind of thing that the Morricone geeks would appreciate.

NERDY HIP-HOP: On the vocal side of things, you're probably going to
find De La Soul and Public Enemy on everybody's list of influences;
musically, you could probably get a rough sampling of what the
culpable parties were into as kids/students/whatever by asking the
same question of the people on this list... huge variance, etc., but
almost all of it will have its merits. Prog rock, early hip-hop
(especially DJs like Marley Marl, DXT, Bambaata, etc., who
blenderized everything in sight), jazz, whatever... much as I hate
the phrase, it's all good.

USELESS TRIVIA: You know junken, that rock-scissors-paper game that
you used to play when you were a kid? I was informed earlier today
that it has a strip equivalent (ie. strip poker, strip Happy Days
game, etc.) that isn't completely out-of-the-ballpark-strange fodder
for hanami (cherry-blossom-viewing) parties with really close friends
in this neck of the woods. I love this country.

-me


______________________________________________________________________
File your taxes online! http://taxes.yahoo.ca

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: hiphop
Date: 20 Mar 2002 15:31:37 +0100





On the subject of hip-hop:

> my favorite hip hop cd's would be It takes a Nation of Millions and
> Wu Tang's Enter the Wu-Tang/36 Chambers

In my opinion, and I don't speak as someone who is very knowledgeable
about hip-hop, the Cannibal Ox record "The Cold Vein" is one of the most
intelligent and most highly enjoyable records of recent times.

Their "Straight Off The D.I.C." track is the first hip-hop track I've
ever heard which really left me with a lump in my throat.

Frankco



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Sean Westergaard" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: hiphop
Date: 20 Mar 2002 09:26:55 -0500



another great, fairly recent release is Jurassic 5's Quality Control.  solid
old school rhyming and great jazzy beats.  there's even a quick cameo by
Sherman Helmsly! (George Jefferson)

sean


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: hiphop/sonny clark
Date: 20 Mar 2002 09:45:38 EST

Beastie Boys....all the way.

Can anyone recommend a good starting place for Sonny Clark (other than the
Horvitz tribute)?

Thanks,
Tom

______________________________________________________________________
Phil Spector: "I've been listening to a lot of Andrew Lloyd Webber lately,
and enjoying it. Someday I hope to set his stuff to music."

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Arthur Gadney" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Bristol
Date: 20 Mar 2002 15:24:44 +0000

Hey ,

I'm in Bristol in England looking for good record shops. Any
recommendations?

thanks

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tosh <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: From "The Onion"
Date: 20 Mar 2002 07:47:55 -0800

>The fact is that I published a novel by a pop music genius
>(Gainsbourg) about an artist who farts, which helps him make his
>art.  So believe me, I don't take this as a joke!


Ciao,
Tosh








>   anything is that is, was, or will ever be printed in the onion article
>wise is of course a JOKE! - those who are upset by this supposed
>self-degrading joke of an article are taking themselves way too seriously and
>have no identifiable sense of humor.
>
>     i thought the article was witty and it cleverly poked fun at people - not
>unlike some on this list - who take all things music too serious. i love john
>zorn to death, i think he's an absolute genius, but i've encountered some
>types that would buy an album of him farting and belching profusely and then
>discuss how well he blended the two styles together and or his brilliantly
>suttle use of dynamics in the first movement. get the point?
>
>someones new enemy - mike
>
>-


--
Tosh Berman
TamTam Books
http://www.tamtambooks.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "s~Z" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Name that tune
Date: 20 Mar 2002 08:10:35 -0800

http://www.philipglass.com/glassengine/#



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ricardo Reis <[e-mail]>
Subject: explanation for a child
Date: 20 Mar 2002 17:07:08 +0000 (WET)


    can someone explain me the concept behind "music concrete"?

                greets,
                 Ricardo Reis

                "Non Serviam"


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Geert Buelens <[e-mail]>
Subject: fire music
Date: 20 Mar 2002 18:06:20 +0100

dear list-members,

has any one of you read "Fire Music. A Political History of Jazz" (by
Rob Backus, 1976)? it seems very hard to find and I'd like to know if I
should continue my quest or just forget about it. Other interesting
titles (books, articles) about the same subject (especially free jazz &
black arts movement) are also very welcome.
thanks,

geert



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Arthur Gadney" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Laswell and The Dub
Date: 20 Mar 2002 17:16:17 +0000

Hello!

Can somebody tell me when Bill Laswell recorded his first dub piece??
Sometime late 80s, is that right? Discovering dub must have been quite a big
turn around for him, so I'm just curious when he really became a born again
dubster.

Thanks.

NR: http://www.bullatomsci.org/media/current_print.html
NP: PainKiller: "Guts Of A Virgin" (What, no dub!??!)


_________________________________________________________________
Join the worldÆs largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: hiphop
Date: 20 Mar 2002 09:25:09 -0800

on 3/20/02 6:26 AM, Sean Westergaard at [e-mail] wrote:

>
>
> another great, fairly recent release is Jurassic 5's Quality Control.  solid
> old school rhyming and great jazzy beats.  there's even a quick cameo by
> Sherman Helmsly! (George Jefferson)
>
> sean
>
>
> -
>
I second that one.  That "jazz" cut is unbelieveable virtuoso turntabling,
too.

sh


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: hiphop/sonny clark
Date: 20 Mar 2002 09:25:31 -0800

on 3/20/02 6:45 AM, [e-mail] at [e-mail] wrote:

> Beastie Boys....all the way.
>
> Can anyone recommend a good starting place for Sonny Clark (other than the
> Horvitz tribute)?
>
COOL STRUTTIN'.

skip h


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: explanation for a child
Date: 20 Mar 2002 09:26:12 -0800


On Wed, 20 Mar 2002 17:07:08 +0000 (WET)  Ricardo Reis wrote:
>
>
>     can someone explain me the concept behind "music concrete"?

Musique Concrete was created by Pierre Schaeffer in the late forties (quickly
joined by Pierre Henry with whom he made the masterpiece of the genre:
SYMPHONIE POUR UN HOMME SEUL). The idea was to make music with sounds
usually not considered as musical. Basically sounds made by objects associated
to all human activities. It could the noise of a squeaky door, the noises from
steam machines, etc. Schaeffer gathered all the theoretical foundations of his
baby in the awesome T.O.M. (TRAITE DES OBJETS MUSICAUX). In its purest form,
the music was not supposed to use sounds prooduced by electronic equipements,
although these were heavily used for processing (including the weird machine
to slow/speed sounds without changing the pitches!). You also need to know that
Schaeffer was quite desilusioned with the whole idea by the end of his life.
In the early fifties, every modern European composers had created his piece
of music concrete. Very few are unfortunately available (Boulez, for example,
erased it from his catalog).

The idea of musique concrete, as a separate genre, did not last long since
after the creation of electronic music in 1953 in Koln by Herbert Heimer, both
genres quickly fused to become electroacoustic music (or acousmatic, if you
follow the French school).

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Big John Patton left us...
Date: 20 Mar 2002 09:52:09 -0800


    Another sad news.

There is a message on r.m.b. saying that Big John Patton passed away on
Tuesday 3/19/02.

    Patrice.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Efr=E9n=20del=20Valle?= <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fwd: Re: explanation for a child
Date: 20 Mar 2002 18:55:24 +0100 (CET)

Hi,

I could be wrong but I think Pierre Henry's "Messe
Pour le Temps Present" is still available and it's a
good example of musique concrete. However, according
to Patrice's insightful description and taking it
strictly, only the last section of the record could be
included within that category, if I recall (with all
those furniture noises, etc). It includes the famous
"Psyche-Rock"!.

Best,

EfrΘn del VAlle


>
> On Wed, 20 Mar 2002 17:07:08 +0000 (WET)  Ricardo
> Reis wrote:
> >
> >
> >     can someone explain me the concept behind "music
> concrete"?
>
> Musique Concrete was created by Pierre Schaeffer in
> the late forties (quickly
> joined by Pierre Henry with whom he made the
> masterpiece of the genre:
> SYMPHONIE POUR UN HOMME SEUL). The idea was to make
> music with sounds
> usually not considered as musical. Basically sounds
> made by objects associated
> to all human activities. It could the noise of a
> squeaky door, the noises from
> steam machines, etc. Schaeffer gathered all the
> theoretical foundations of his
> baby in the awesome T.O.M. (TRAITE DES OBJETS
> MUSICAUX). In its purest form,
> the music was not supposed to use sounds prooduced
> by electronic equipements,
> although these were heavily used for processing
> (including the weird machine
> to slow/speed sounds without changing the pitches!).
> You also need to know that
> Schaeffer was quite desilusioned with the whole idea
> by the end of his life.
> In the early fifties, every modern European
> composers had created his piece
> of music concrete. Very few are unfortunately
> available (Boulez, for example,
> erased it from his catalog).
>
> The idea of musique concrete, as a separate genre,
> did not last long since
> after the creation of electronic music in 1953 in
> Koln by Herbert Heimer, both
> genres quickly fused to become electroacoustic music
> (or acousmatic, if you
> follow the French school).
>
>     Patrice.
>
> -
>

_______________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Messenger
Comunicaci≤n instantßnea gratis con tu gente.
http://messenger.yahoo.es

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "josephneff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: fire music
Date: 20 Mar 2002 13:13:32 -0500

Hello,
     ....Valarie Wilmer's "As Serious As Your Life" springs to mind. It is a
very good read, and is very much in tune with the political spirit of fire
music/free jazz/new thing/whatever. And it shouldn't be hard to find. I
ordered my from a local (Winchester, VA)independant bookstore.

I remain....
Joseph

NP: Eugene Chadbourne- "I Talked To Death In Stereo" CD
NR: Oxford American Southern Movie Issue

-----Original Message-----
[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Geert Buelens
Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2002 12:06 PM
Cc: [e-mail]


dear list-members,

has any one of you read "Fire Music. A Political History of Jazz" (by
Rob Backus, 1976)? it seems very hard to find and I'd like to know if I
should continue my quest or just forget about it. Other interesting
titles (books, articles) about the same subject (especially free jazz &
black arts movement) are also very welcome.
thanks,

geert



-


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: explanation for a child
Date: 20 Mar 2002 10:01:29 -0800


On Wed, 20 Mar 2002 18:55:24 +0100 (CET)  =?iso-8859-1?q?Efr=E9n=20del=20Valle?= wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I could be wrong but I think Pierre Henry's "Messe
> Pour le Temps Present" is still available and it's a

In fact a lot is available. A fairly complete set of Pierre Schaeffer and
numerous boxes for Pierre Henry (at least three, if I remember well).

    Patrice.


*** - L'OEUVRE MUSICALE: Pierre Schaeffer

  Disc 1:
    1/ Cinq Etudes De Bruits                    (Schaeffer)             16:12
    2/ Diapason Concertino                      (Schaeffer)              9:49
    3/ Variations Sur Une Flute Mexicaine       (Schaeffer)              3:45
    4/ Suite Pour 14 Instruments                (Schaeffer)             25:24
    5/ L'Oiseau RAI                             (Schaeffer)              2:55
  Disc 2:
    6/ Symphonie Pour Un Homme Seul             (Schaeffer, Henry)      21:30
    7/ Bidule En Ut                             (Schaeffer, Henry)       1:51
    8/ Echo D'Orfee, Pour P. Schaeffer          (Pierre Henry)          39:58
  Disc 3:
    9/ Quatre Etudes De Bruits                  (Schaeffer)             12:25
    10/ Concertino Diapason                     (Schaeffer)              4:20
    11/ Suite 14                                (Schaeffer)              9:15
    12/ Masquerage                              (Schaeffer)              3:37
    13/ Les Paroles Degelees                    (Schaeffer)              4:19
    14/ Etude Aux Allures                       (Schaeffer)              3:28
    15/ Etude Aux Sons Animes                   (Schaeffer)              4:12
    16/ Etude Aux Objets                        (Schaeffer)             17:10
    17/ Le Triedre Fertile                      (Schaeffer)             11:37
    18/ Bilude                                  (Schaeffer)              2:17

    1998 - Musidisc/INA GRM (France), 292572 (3xCD)
    ???? - EMF (USA), EM114 (3xCD)


*** - ANTAGONISMES IV: Pierre Henry

    1/ Antagonismes IV

    2001 - Philips (France), PHI 8525 (CD)


*** - FUTURISTIE: Pierre Henry

    1/ Futuristie

    2001 - Philips (France), PHI 8524 (CD)


*** - VARIATIONS POUR UNE PORTE ET UN SOUPIR & LA REINE VERTE: Pierre Henry

    1/ Variations Pour Une Porte Et Un Soupir
    2/ La Reine Verte

    2001 - Philips (France), PHI 8523 (CD)


*** - MIX 03.0: Pierre Henry

  CD 1:
    1/ Variations Pour Une Porte Et Un Soupir
    2/ La Reine Verte
  CD 2:
    3/ Futuristie
  CD 3:
    4/ Antagonismes IV
  CD 4:
    5/ Hugosymphonie/Gouttes D'Eau

    2001 - Philips (France), PHI 8522 (4xCD)


*** - MIX 02.0: Pierre Henry

    1/ Symphonie Pour un Homme Seul
    2/ Le Voyage
    3/ Mouvement-Rythme-Etude
    4/ Le Livre des Morts Egyptien

    2000 - Philips (France), PHI 4645322 (4xCD)


*** - MIX: Pierre Henry

    1999 - Philips (France), PHI 4644032 (5xCD)




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "josephneff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Hip Hop
Date: 20 Mar 2002 13:42:25 -0500

Hello,
     ...now, as far as the old, old school stuff goes, I seem to remember
that Rhino assembled something like a 4 CD comp. series of the early stuff
(back when it was called rap). I don't own it, but a friend used to spin it
at parties, and it was always fun. I need to hunt these down....

Yeah, PE's "It Takes a Nation..." is classic, but don't sleep on the first
one "Yo, Bum Rush The Show". It's a great glimpse at the pre-political PE,
with absolutely SLAMMIN' beats and the riveting voice of Chuck.

On the subject of Beastie Boys, "Paul's Boutique" is the closest in spirit
to the hip hop modus operandi. It's absolutely drenched in samples (some
would say too much so)and in many ways is a kind of tribute to much early
hip hop culture. The Dust Brothers play a big part in the success of the
album, um, IMHO.

So, anybody want to recommend some good starter discs for Washington DC's
indigenous music, Go-Go? Comps or single artist albums, it doesn't matter.

I remain...

Joseph

NP: Eugene Chadbourne- "I Talked To Death In Stereo" CD
NR: Oxford American Southern Movie Issue


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Zachary Steiner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Coltrane Gold Collection
Date: 20 Mar 2002 13:29:17 -0500

A friend gave me this Coltrane CD and told me to figure out what it is.
It is entitled "The John Coltrane Gold Collection."  It appears to be
made in Italy by a company by the name of "Digital Dejavu" and it was
released in 1992.  On the CD there is a version of A Love Supreme that
is split into 4 tracks, as opposed to 3, which total 39:36 and then a
version of Spiritual at 12:20.  The sound quality could be live but it
is a very well recorded live sound.  Does any one know what this is?  Is
it live? When was it recorded?

Zach



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Hip Hop
Date: 20 Mar 2002 10:31:23 -0800


On Wed, 20 Mar 2002 13:42:25 -0500  "josephneff" wrote:
>
> Hello,
>      ...now, as far as the old, old school stuff goes, I seem to remember
> that Rhino assembled something like a 4 CD comp. series of the early stuff
> (back when it was called rap). I don't own it, but a friend used to spin it
> at parties, and it was always fun. I need to hunt these down....
>
> Yeah, PE's "It Takes a Nation..." is classic, but don't sleep on the first
> one "Yo, Bum Rush The Show". It's a great glimpse at the pre-political PE,
> with absolutely SLAMMIN' beats and the riveting voice of Chuck.

And what about N.W.A.'s STRAIGHT OUT OF COMPTON?

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ricardo Reis <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: explanation for a child
Date: 20 Mar 2002 18:43:54 +0000 (WET)


    thanks for everyone input. i figure i grasp it now :)

                 Ricardo Reis

                "Non Serviam"


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: From "The Onion"
Date: 20 Mar 2002 13:35:46 -0600

On Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 12:41:18AM -0800, skip Heller wrote:

> I keep waiting for The Onion to get around to the Black Country Music Awards
> myself.  Lifetime Achievement Award to Charlie Pride.  And next -- uh-oh.

Ray Charles?

> Incidentally, the Zorn bleching and farting remix project (with armpit
> noises by Derek Bailey and Mark Feldman) is rumored to be powerful, moving,
> above ridicule and makes a bold new statement about emission.  It is not to
> be taken lightly, and I resent your levity about this matter.

That's good to hear. In this corporate world, all projects need a strong
emission statement.

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Bob Sweet <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: fire music
Date: 20 Mar 2002 13:52:47 -0500

Geert:

You might be interested in reading about the community in Woodstock, New
York, which grew out of the free jazz movement. The Creative Music Studio,
which was founded by Ornette Coleman and Karl Berger was a nexus for the
evolution of free jazz into a world-music orientation. CMS was powered, in
large part, by free-jazz pioneers Ed Blackwell and Don Cherry and by the
"black arts movement" collectives Association for the Advancement of
Creative Musicians (represented by the Art Ensemble of Chicago, Douglas
Ewart, Anthony Braxton, Jack DeJohnette, Leroy Jenkins, and Leo Smith) and
the Black Arts Group in St. Louis (represented by Oliver Lake, J.D. Parran,
and others).

My book, a history of the Creative Music Studio, is called Music Universe,
Music Mind: Revisiting the Creative Music Studio, Woodstock, New York. You
can find out more at http://www.arborville.com, or email me off list.

Bob Sweet
[e-mail]

--On Wednesday, March 20, 2002 6:06 PM +0100 Geert Buelens
<[e-mail]> wrote:

> dear list-members,
>
> has any one of you read "Fire Music. A Political History of Jazz" (by
> Rob Backus, 1976)? it seems very hard to find and I'd like to know if I
> should continue my quest or just forget about it. Other interesting
> titles (books, articles) about the same subject (especially free jazz &
> black arts movement) are also very welcome.
> thanks,
>
> geert
>
>
>
> -





-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "gorilla thing" <[e-mail]>
Subject: ETHIOPIQUES
Date: 20 Mar 2002 10:56:35 -0800

Hello,

Could you fella's give me an idea of
what ETHIOPIQUES sounds like before I jump on the
wagon as well.

-Chad

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: straight outta ...
Date: 20 Mar 2002 11:17:19 -0800

It's nice to see hip-hop discussed so knowledgably in these parts.

For what it's worth, I think what De La Soul, PE, and NWA sprang on us in
the mid/late 80s was the true avant-garde American music, more than any
other.  For all the sociological hogwash we've read about "consumer-driven
culture", "pop culture", and all those other after-the-fact-of-creation
terms, the fact of the matter was that some guys with innate musicality took
what they had at hand and reinvented the wheel in their own collective
image.  Not only did they come up with an electronic music that didn't sound
like an eletric shaver being played over a broken AM radio, but they made it
in a way that communicated to real people without dumbing down either the
musical content or the lyric data.  It was the hip-hop crowd that finally
made the American music for American people the way that Charles Ives spoke
of it: out on the edge, embracing the reality of American life, and using
existing elements of Americana without academic pretense.  And it connected
with an audience, big time, without kowtowing to the niceties.

To my mind, the failure of the avant-garde has been that it has been
proudly, even arrogantly, insular -- not only in its expression, but also
its audience.  These may seem like strong words, but, with the exception of
Zorn and a scant few others, who has been able to develop a growing
audience? Even Zappa admitted he had to churn out stuff like "Dinah Moe
Humm" if he wanted to sell some records.  Granted, much of what presents
itself as avant-garde does not pretend to be designed for a big audience,
but then again much of what presents itself as avant-garde doesn't work very
well in the minds of most listeners, no matter what degree of
adventurousness they seem primed for.

But the hip-hop guys seemed to have gotten out of this by coming out on the
cusp of the rhythm'n'blues world, a world which has never been given credit
for how much truly avant-garde content it has generated.  In the rock world,
the overblown aesthtics of prog seemed to crave the insular modus operandi,
which led to the commercial acceptance of prog lite corpo style (ie Kansas),
prog fusion (which appealed to the jock mentality of the teen males of the
time, because faster is better, especially with some fuzztone), and finally
the Ramones (because when stuff gets as pretentious and overblown as rock
was by 1976, you need two minute songs with no guitar solos).  But none of
this stuff connected to the extent that hip-hop connected.  The often
wished-for Next Beatles turned out to be Run DMC.  Not only did their music
connect big, but anything advertised at young people from 1987 on had some
sort of hip-hop quotient attatched to it.  And the musical/sonic intensity
of it -- and the aggression of its message -- only got nastier.  yeah, you
had some rap lite, but groups like PE were outselling it over time.

Ives often wrote of his wish that American music would not only live up to
the ldeals this country's frontier nature, but that also would mean
something to the average American.  Well, it happened just like he hoped.
But it doesn't seem like the avant-garde has really acknowledged it in any
meaningful way.  Go figure.

skip h
NP: elvis presley, the sun sessions


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Sean Westergaard" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Hip Hop
Date: 20 Mar 2002 14:16:59 -0500


>So, anybody want to recommend some good starter discs for Washington DC's
>indigenous music, Go-Go? Comps or single artist albums, it doesn't matter.

this list has to start with Troublefunk.  I don't really remember what's out
there by them, but i think there was a live album that was VERY good.  their
studio stuff was not quite as hot, but they were a fun band.   i think there
was a troublefunk album that was another casualty of the Infinite Zero label
closure.

sean

-



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: straight outta ...
Date: 20 Mar 2002 11:40:47 -0800


On Wed, 20 Mar 2002 11:17:19 -0800  skip Heller wrote:
>
> It's nice to see hip-hop discussed so knowledgably in these parts.
>
> For what it's worth, I think what De La Soul, PE, and NWA sprang on us in
> the mid/late 80s was the true avant-garde American music, more than any
> other.  For all the sociological hogwash we've read about "consumer-driven
> culture", "pop culture", and all those other after-the-fact-of-creation
> terms, the fact of the matter was that some guys with innate musicality took
> what they had at hand and reinvented the wheel in their own collective
> image.  Not only did they come up with an electronic music that didn't sound
> like an eletric shaver being played over a broken AM radio, but they made it
> in a way that communicated to real people without dumbing down either the
> musical content or the lyric data.  It was the hip-hop crowd that finally
> made the American music for American people the way that Charles Ives spoke
> of it: out on the edge, embracing the reality of American life, and using
> existing elements of Americana without academic pretense.  And it connected
> with an audience, big time, without kowtowing to the niceties.

Skip, your cheerleading of hip hop is moving, but don't you go a little bit
too far?

I am not an expert in popular American music, but I have the impression that
what hip hop did in the early 80's happened many times before (blues,
country, pop, etc).

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: a hip hop ammendment
Date: 20 Mar 2002 14:49:41 EST

ok look - i've have thought of some other very important hip hop records that
need to be added to my original and very short list.

of course NWA's - "straight outta compton" was an incredibly important and
influencial recording, but it didn't come early enough to really qualify as
part of the birth of hip hop/rap music. (which was the original question)
that is why i gave you it's predecesors (sugar hill, grand master falsh and
the furious five, run dmc, and pe). now if you wanna seek the origins of
"gangster rap" then look no further than straight outta compton. no question
it was it's genesis.

other notables that shant be left out:
Slick Rick
LL Cool J
Doug E Fresh
Ice T
Too Short
KRS - 1

those are the originators.

as far as newer rap records go, few impress me. one artist stands above the
rest and he is relatively unknown. BROTHA LYNCH HUNG out of sacremento
california on Black Market Records. by far the most amazing and dramatic
stuff ive ever heard hip hop wise. his songs mix gangster rap with
cannibalistic horror and serial killing very smoothly and it comes across
extremely sincere and powerful. the music behind his stuff has no equal
either. amazing stuff.
check the "season of the sicc" and "loaded" albums. the music on loaded alone
will scare you. then when he speaks of real life gang killings and losing his
cousin to gang violence, you'll be rooting for him to exact revenge.

other newer releases to check out:
First Degree the D.E. - "Farenhiet Underbelly"
Twalib Kwali with the Youngblood Brass Band - "y'all stay up" (this is an
eight or nine piece brass band of 20 somethings doing all the music behind
twalib).

get brotha lynch. it's amazing.

we've talked way too much about hip hop now. oh well. - mike


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: straight outta ...
Date: 20 Mar 2002 11:54:49 -0800

on 3/20/02 11:40 AM, Patrice L. Roussel at [e-mail] wrote:

> Skip, your cheerleading of hip hop is moving, but don't you go a little bit
> too far?
>
> I am not an expert in popular American music, but I have the impression that
> what hip hop did in the early 80's happened many times before (blues,
> country, pop, etc).
>
> Patrice.

I'd love to say that it did.  But two big things count against me saying so:
1. Nobody invented a whole new style of country, or pop, or blues that
required a whole new vocal technique or, for that matter, a completely
different set of instruments that were required to put the music together
promforma.

2. A lot of pop music had been designed and built for non-academic audiences
and had relevent lyric data, but Springsteen, Dylan, Haggard, Guthrie etc
didn't play with any of musical norms (structure, texture, rhythms etc) in
any major way.  You could say there were things leading up to it, but I
think it's safe to say there was nothing like it before.  It's almost like
having Harry Partch hit the top 40, on terms of how much new stuff was
instigated and invented by hip hop guys.

skip h


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: explanation for a child
Date: 20 Mar 2002 15:00:08 -0600

On Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 05:07:08PM +0000, Ricardo Reis wrote:

> can someone explain me the concept behind "music concrete"?

Different building materials have different densities and resonances.
Music concrete was an attempt to construct spaces from a variety of
these so that, for example, footsteps would play a melody when you
walked across a bridge. It was dicovered, however, that hard wood,
though more expensive and fragile, still worked better than stone.

(And hopefully someone will supply the real answer *grin*)

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: straight outta ...
Date: 20 Mar 2002 15:12:56 EST

WOW - to mention Harry Partch in order to describe the creativity of Hip Hop?
bold move my friend. that's a little hard to comprehend. hip hop pioneers
didn't build their own freaking instrument and devise a entirely new 48 tone
scale to free themselves from all confines of traditional western music. no
no no, rather they started out by rhyming over a 4/4 drum beat. not unlike
school girls using a jump rope as their metronome to sing - uhh RHYMES over.

I like hip hop, as you can tell from previous posts, but to say they were as
creative as harry partch is too much.

-mike with his mind blown

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: explanation for a child
Date: 20 Mar 2002 15:07:45 -0600

On Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 09:26:12AM -0800, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:

> The idea of musique concrete, as a separate genre, did not last long since
> after the creation of electronic music in 1953 in Koln by Herbert Heimer, both
> genres quickly fused to become electroacoustic music (or acousmatic, if you
> follow the French school).

This "creation", of course, happened in an alternate universe where,
to name a few people, John Cage, Otto Luening, Leon Theremin, and
Olivier Messiaen didn't work with electronic music well before then.
The history of music here on Earth differs significantly from that
story.

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: explanation for a child
Date: 20 Mar 2002 12:37:17 -0800


On Wed, 20 Mar 2002 15:07:45 -0600  Joseph Zitt wrote:
>
> On Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 09:26:12AM -0800, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:
>
> > The idea of musique concrete, as a separate genre, did not last long since
> > after the creation of electronic music in 1953 in Koln by Herbert Heimer, both
> > genres quickly fused to become electroacoustic music (or acousmatic, if you
> > follow the French school).
>
> This "creation", of course, happened in an alternate universe where,
> to name a few people, John Cage, Otto Luening, Leon Theremin, and
> Olivier Messiaen didn't work with electronic music well before then.
> The history of music here on Earth differs significantly from that
> story.

Joseph is right since Haydn was using clocks in his symphonies, we
should make him the founder of musique concrete. Unfortunately we
don't know enough about prehistoric composing method which means
that we might miss the point here.

Concerning Messiaen I am a little bit puzzled. Do you mean his use
of the Ondes Martenot? As far as I know Messiaen, his usage of
Ondes Martenot did not open a completely new approach to the
creative process. He used the new instrument in an old context.

When I talked about the creation of electronic music it was the way
many books on contemporaty music describe it. Basically, that is
more than just using some electronic instruments.

Anyway, excuse me if I hurted your American feelings.

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: straight outta ...
Date: 20 Mar 2002 15:30:04 -0600

On Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 03:12:56PM -0500, [e-mail] wrote:
> WOW - to mention Harry Partch in order to describe the creativity of Hip Hop?
> bold move my friend. that's a little hard to comprehend. hip hop pioneers
> didn't build their own freaking instrument and devise a entirely new 48 tone
> scale to free themselves from all confines of traditional western music. no
> no no, rather they started out by rhyming over a 4/4 drum beat. not unlike
> school girls using a jump rope as their metronome to sing - uhh RHYMES over.

Well, while I'm not as sure as Skip that the stuff was utterly
unprecedented, they did bring in the use of electronics, turntables,
sampling, and the like, which was, in a sense more distinctive than
Partch's instrument building: when you get down to it, Partch was
still creating oddly shaped percussion, keyboard, and stringed
instruments with new tunings. The hip-hop instrument was a new set of
sounds and interfaces, often freed from dealing with tunings at all,
being based on the non-pitched and mutable tonalities of common
speech.

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ben Axelrad" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Hip Hop
Date: 20 Mar 2002 14:48:11 -0600

These stand the test of time:

Standard Stuff:
Ultramagnetic MCs -- Critical Beatdown, The Four Horseman
Dr. Octagon (Kool Keith)
Boogie Down Productions -- Criminal Minded
Souls of Mischief -- 93 til Infinity
Jungle Brothers -- Straight Out the Jungle
De La Soul -- De La Soul Is Dead
Common (Sense) -- Resurrection
Outkast -- ATLiens, Aquemini (newer ones are good but not as good as
everyone says)
Goodie Mob -- (first one)


Chicago:
E.C. -- Illa LP
Molemen compilations (any one is good)
Rhymefest -- presents Raw Dawg

West Coast:
Aceyalone -- anything!
Freestyle Fellowship -- Innercity Griots
Project Blowed (v/a)
Volume 10 -- HipHopera


Political Stuff:
Brand Nubian -- (the first one)
X-Clan -- (the first one -- isn't Verbal Milk the best rap track ever?)
Public Enemy -- Fear of a Black Planet (was the "Still they got me like
Jesus" line from "Welcome to the Terrordome" anti-Semitic?)
The Coup -- Genocide & Juice

Compilations:
Stretch Armstrong/Bobbito freestyles -- the one with Mad Skillz/Lonnie B, IG
Off & Hazardous, etc
Soundbombing

Websites:
www.hiphopsite.com
www.sandbox.com

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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: straight outta ...
Date: 20 Mar 2002 12:50:31 -0800


On Wed, 20 Mar 2002 15:30:04 -0600  Joseph Zitt wrote:
>
> On Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 03:12:56PM -0500, [e-mail] wrote:
> > WOW - to mention Harry Partch in order to describe the creativity of Hip Hop?
> > bold move my friend. that's a little hard to comprehend. hip hop pioneers
> > didn't build their own freaking instrument and devise a entirely new 48 tone
> > scale to free themselves from all confines of traditional western music. no
> > no no, rather they started out by rhyming over a 4/4 drum beat. not unlike
> > school girls using a jump rope as their metronome to sing - uhh RHYMES over.
>
> Well, while I'm not as sure as Skip that the stuff was utterly
> unprecedented, they did bring in the use of electronics, turntables,

Joseph, why being so squeamish? Didn't John Cage started it all (hip hop)
with CARTRIDGE MUSIC?

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: straight outta ...
Date: 20 Mar 2002 12:59:25 -0800

on 3/20/02 12:12 PM, [e-mail] at [e-mail] wrote:

> WOW - to mention Harry Partch in order to describe the creativity of Hip Hop?
> bold move my friend. that's a little hard to comprehend. hip hop pioneers
> didn't build their own freaking instrument and devise a entirely new 48 tone
> scale to free themselves from all confines of traditional western music. no
> no no, rather they started out by rhyming over a 4/4 drum beat. not unlike
> school girls using a jump rope as their metronome to sing - uhh RHYMES over.
>
> I like hip hop, as you can tell from previous posts, but to say they were as
> creative as harry partch is too much.
>
> -mike with his mind blown
>
> -
>
Partch -- devised new instruments and notation, techniques and brought
previously unused structures to the music.

Hip-hop guys -- devised new instruments, techniques, and brought previously
unused structures to the music.

The only thing missing for me fr the hip-hop side is the notation.  As for
the 4/4-ness of it, the way those beats got messed around -- both texturally
and in terms of actually subdivision of the beats themselves -- was
something we hadn;t heard before.  As Mr Zitt pointed out, Schoenberg
mentioned that there was still a lot of music left to be written in C ("In
C" comes to mind).  4/4 was and is far from over, and the practice of
subdividing it texturally as much as rhythmically (look at a Tower Of Power
horn chart and you'll notice that 4/4 is not all that limited) is an amazing
step.

As for the confines of western music, those seem largely to be harmony and
melody, and hip-hop certainly treats those elements as options, not law.
Partch was definitely seeing himself as much in line with Eastern theatrical
presentation at least as he was with American(/Western).  I think it's
pretty easy to say the same thing about the general relationship of rappers
to the griot.

Honestly, I don't see that much difference.  Partch defintely had his ideas
about low art/high art, and I think that hip-hop actually managed to carry
them out.  Partch used bottles, lightbulbs, and whatever other consumer
goods he could make something out of.  The deejay's are using old records.
I don't see a big split here, except in how and where people are taught
about it.

skip h


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: straight outta ...
Date: 20 Mar 2002 13:01:58 -0800

on 3/20/02 12:50 PM, Patrice L. Roussel at [e-mail] wrote:

>
> Joseph, why being so squeamish? Didn't John Cage started it all (hip hop)
> with CARTRIDGE MUSIC?
>
> Patrice.

That's exactly the type of music that sounds to many of us like a recording
of an electric shaver being played as someone tunes in a broken AM radio.
Also, do you think Dr Dre is taking his cues from Cage? Honestly?

skip h


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: straight outta ...
Date: 20 Mar 2002 13:00:25 -0800


On Wed, 20 Mar 2002 13:01:58 -0800  skip Heller wrote:
>
> on 3/20/02 12:50 PM, Patrice L. Roussel at [e-mail] wrote:
>
> >
> > Joseph, why being so squeamish? Didn't John Cage started it all (hip hop)
> > with CARTRIDGE MUSIC?
> >
> > Patrice.
>
> That's exactly the type of music that sounds to many of us like a recording
> of an electric shaver being played as someone tunes in a broken AM radio.
> Also, do you think Dr Dre is taking his cues from Cage? Honestly?

I was joking since it is usually impossible to talk about something new in
music without Joseph reminding you than Cage did it first :-).

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: hip hop
Date: 20 Mar 2002 16:01:39 EST

I doubt that Dr. Dre even knows who John Cage is.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: straight outta ...
Date: 20 Mar 2002 13:06:06 -0800


>It is usually impossible to talk about something new in
> music without Joseph reminding you than Cage did it first :-).
>
> Patrice.

My gaff.  It's often hard to tell what is or isn't literal when people are
citing historical precedent.

sh


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: hip hop
Date: 20 Mar 2002 13:06:44 -0800

on 3/20/02 1:01 PM, [e-mail] at [e-mail]
wrote:

> I doubt that Dr. Dre even knows who John Cage is.
>
> -
>
... and somehow I would never count this against him.

skip h


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: hip hop
Date: 20 Mar 2002 13:04:33 -0800


On Wed, 20 Mar 2002 16:01:39 EST  [e-mail] wrote:
>
> I doubt that Dr. Dre even knows who John Cage is.

And he can make music? That's really astonishing. Surely another proof (if
needed) of a large scale conspiracy to keep the masses in total ignorance to
better manipulate them :-).

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: David Keffer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: explanation for a child
Date: 20 Mar 2002 17:00:28 -0500


>>On Wed, 20 Mar 2002 17:07:08 +0000 (WET)  Ricardo Reis wrote:
>>     can someone explain me the concept behind "music concrete"?

>From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
>Musique Concrete was created by Pierre Schaeffer in the late forties ...

This sort of concise and insightful description is precisely the reason I
remain a member of the list.  Thanks.

David K.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Re: Fwd: Re: explanation for a child
Date: 20 Mar 2002 23:05:38 +0000


>From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: explanation for a child
>
>On Wed, 20 Mar 2002 18:55:24 +0100 (CET)
>=?iso-8859-1?q?Efr=E9n=20del=20Valle?= wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > I could be wrong but I think Pierre Henry's "Messe
> > Pour le Temps Present" is still available and it's a
>
>In fact a lot is available. A fairly complete set of Pierre Schaeffer and
>numerous boxes for Pierre Henry (at least three, if I remember well).
>

There's a fourth mix box that just became available.  I've been collecting
them and they have good liner notes in French about musique concrete.
As usual, thanks for the discographies, Patrice.

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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: explanation for a child
Date: 20 Mar 2002 15:13:00 -0800


On Wed, 20 Mar 2002 23:05:38 +0000  "Bill Ashline" wrote:
>
> There's a fourth mix box that just became available.  I've been collecting
> them and they have good liner notes in French about musique concrete.

That's a great news! I dream that the following piece is part of it:


*** - MISE EN MUSIQUE DU CORTICALART DE ROGER LAFOSSE: Pierre Henry


Could it be the resdiscovery of Henry by techno artists the reason why Philips
decided to reissue most of Henry's production?

    Patrice.



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Laswell and The Dub
Date: 20 Mar 2002 23:28:05 +0000


>From: "Arthur Gadney" <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Laswell and The Dub
>
>Hello!
>
>Can somebody tell me when Bill Laswell recorded his first dub piece??
>Sometime late 80s, is that right? Discovering dub must have been quite a
>big
>turn around for him, so I'm just curious when he really became a born again
>dubster.
>

Probably in the studio working with Sly and Robbie in the late eighties and
with King Yellowman.  The 1988 release of Blind Idiot God's Undertow on
Enemy, which he produced, perhaps encouraged the move away from a more
funk-based aesthetic into dub.  But I don't think the decision to create a
new hybrid genre really happened until about 92 or 93.

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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: explanation for a child
Date: 20 Mar 2002 23:48:06 +0000




>From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
>To: "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>
>CC: [e-mail], [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: explanation for a child
>Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 15:13:00 -0800
>
>On Wed, 20 Mar 2002 23:05:38 +0000  "Bill Ashline" wrote:
> >
> > There's a fourth mix box that just became available.  I've been
>collecting
> > them and they have good liner notes in French about musique concrete.
>
>That's a great news! I dream that the following piece is part of it:
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>*** - MISE EN MUSIQUE DU CORTICALART DE ROGER LAFOSSE: Pierre Henry
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Could it be the resdiscovery of Henry by techno artists the reason why
>Philips
>decided to reissue most of Henry's production?
>
>    Patrice.


I'm not sure what's on the new Mix 4 box as I deleted the original email I
got on it.  But I've been buying these box sets from David Hodgson in New
Mexico and he can probably give you the details again.  You can write him at
[e-mail]

I'm sure that techno's rediscovery had much to do these reissues.

NP:  An unbelievable fog as the Gobi Desert blows it's annual quota of dust
over the atmosphere of Seoul.  Must be seen to be believed.


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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: duncan youngerman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: From "The Onion"
Date: 21 Mar 2002 01:01:57 +0100

My only problem is that that's the kind of corny joke the Reader's Digest or=
 the
St Louis Gazette used to make more than 50 years ago about Picasso, Jackson
Pollock, or John Cage or  any form of modernity (beatniks, etc=2E)=2E
Aside from that, laugh on, man!
D=2E

RainDog138@aol=2Ecom a =E9crit :

>    anything is that is, was, or will ever be printed in the onion article
> wise is of course a JOKE! - those who are upset by this supposed
> self-degrading joke of an article are taking themselves way too seriously =
and
> have no identifiable sense of humor=2E
>
>     i thought the article was witty and it cleverly poked fun at people - =
not
> unlike some on this list - who take all things music too serious=2E i love=
 john
> zorn to death, i think he's an absolute genius, but i've encountered some
> types that would buy an album of him farting and belching profusely and th=
en
> discuss how well he blended the two styles together and or his brilliantly
> suttle use of dynamics in the first movement=2E get the point?
>
> someones new enemy - mike
>
> -


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "William York" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Hip Hop
Date: 21 Mar 2002 00:55:40

>For what it's worth, I think what De La Soul, PE, and NWA sprang on us >in
>the mid/late 80s was the true avant-garde American music, more than >any
>other.

You could make a similar point about death metal in this same period and
slightly after (late 80s/early 90s) -- e.g., Suffocation, Morbid Angel.
(Although I hate to say anything is the "true" anything.) (Un)fortunately, I
don't have time to go into a long essay or point by point analysis at the
moment...

Cheers,

WY




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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Hip Hop
Date: 20 Mar 2002 20:17:11 EST

In a message dated 3/20/02 2:27:41 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< this list has to start with Troublefunk.  I don't really remember what's
out
 there by them, but i think there was a live album that was VERY good.  their
 studio stuff was not quite as hot, but they were a fun band.   i think there
 was a troublefunk album that was another casualty of the Infinite Zero label
 closure. >>

Oh yeah!  Their song "Let's Get Small" was a staple on my local college radio
station when it was released in the mid-80's.

--
=dg=

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Hip Hop
Date: 20 Mar 2002 20:29:02 EST

death metal didn't start with morbid angel nor suffocation. i am sorry. i
know you didn't have time to explain yourself, but i just couldn't let anyone
say that morbid angel originated anything as important as this.

i would say it's originators were napalm death (just ask zorn himself),
death, macabre, and a few others. certainly not the new york or miami based
stuff that came years after. look into the history of napalm death (there are
various sites for this) and you'll find the almost accidental genesis of
death metal and grindcore. anyone who doesn't own ND's first two albums
(scum, and from enslavement to obliteration) they are still to this day the
most extreme death metal recordings ever made based on pure raw energy.
nothing has come close to capturing the intensity and extremity before or
since). they are for lack of a better word amazing. (for a better
understanding of how they got there, seek out the very rare hatred surge
demos that came out just prior to scum)

any other comments on death metal are certainly welcome.

-mike

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: florid oratory <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: sonny clark
Date: 20 Mar 2002 17:34:26 -0800

in addition to the aforementioned Cool Struttin', also on Blue Note are
Leapin' and Lopin' and Sonny's Crib. great originals on both albums, the
former's personnel includes Charlie Rouse and Billy Higgins, the latter has
Coltrane.

and as a sideman with Jackie McLean: Jackie's Bag and Tippin' the Scales
as a sideman with Dexter Gordon: Go and A Swingin' Affair.

all of the above on Blue Note

--GC


>
> From: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: hiphop/sonny clark
>

>
> Can anyone recommend a good starting place for Sonny Clark (other than the
> Horvitz tribute)?
>
> Thanks,
> Tom


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Benito Vergara" <[e-mail]>
Subject: thanks for the book recommendations
Date: 20 Mar 2002 18:18:45 -0800

Just wanted to thank everyone (Bob Sweet, Jason Bivins, Skip Heller, Kevin
Fellezs and Bill Ashline, among others) for your recommendations.

After a cursory examination of some of the books (our library isn't very
good, and neither is the bookstore), I decided to settle on Sarah Thornton's
"Club Cultures: Music, Media and Subcultural Capital," mainly because of her
discussion of authenticity (something I like) and Bourdieu (someone I really
like, may he rest in peace). Plus, I think the kids would get into it more.
=)

A close runner-up was Tricia Rose's "Black Noise: Rap Music and Black
Culture in Contemporary America," which looked awfully promising, and which
I still might switch for the main text at the last moment. (The chapter on
sampling looks fantastic, for one.)

Tia DeNora's "Music in Everyday Life" and Robert Walser's "Running with the
Devil" both looked totally up my alley (especially the former), but read too
jargony (or too technical) for the students. Plus I have "Microphone Fiends"
and "Performing Rites" on its way to me, but the textbook deadlines are
coming soon. It doesn't matter -- in any case, I own them all now. =)

Thanks again,
Ben

----------------------------
Benito M. Vergara, Jr.
Assistant Professor
Department of Asian American Studies /
   Department of Anthropology
San Francisco State University


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Sanchez" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: ornette reissues on blue note and Japanese Independent Music--book
Date: 20 Mar 2002 21:35:03 -0600



> has anyone heard the new/recent RVG-series reissues of the ornette trio's
> golden circle discs on blue note? if so, any commentary on the bonus
> material, improvement in sound quality, etc.?
>
Just thought I'd de-lurk to offer my opinion on two things. First, the
Ornette re-issues. The re-mastering on both discs is a revelation - leaves
the old CDs sounding flat and lifeless. There are five unissued takes and
one new piece appended to the discs so that each one is approx. 35 min.
longer than the previous issue. With new liner notes from John Litweiler and
a $9.99 price, I'd say they're well worth picking up.

..and while I'm here: as for the shortcomings of the Japanese Independent
Music book, while the essays and interviews are good - and the CD is great -
the discographies leave a lot to be desired. Labels get mixed up with
distributors quite a bit (don't think the Boredoms have any releases on
Black Saint as listed in their discog - not that that wouldn't be a good
idea), accuracy of cat. #'s is hit-and-miss, and most of the discographies
have the feel of being moused up rather than researched. And personally, I'm
not completely on board with the editorial stance. I think the entry for
Cornelius goes something like: "Cornelius sucks. Now here's a discography of
50+ listings from his website." But, again, overall the book is worth the
scratch, just not worth your best money, like the Ornette re-issues.

-Sanchez

nw: Profondo Rosso (1975) d. Argento


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: dr. octagon.
Date: 21 Mar 2002 01:33:14 EST


In a message dated 03.20.02 15.48.37, [e-mail] writes:

>Dr. Octagon (Kool Keith)

will someone tell me more about this dr. octagon album?  i've read maybe
twenty reviews of this album and everyone seems to widely respect / like /
dig / whatever it, but i know nothing about it...

love,
  k8.




---
[.n0thing.is.what.is.sAid.]
k a t e  p e t e r s o n
c o m p o s e r / p e r f o r m e r

http://www.geocities.com/uforbk8/kate.html
http://www.icefoundation.org (roundtable)

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: The origins of musique concrete
Date: 21 Mar 2002 08:33:26 +0100




> Musique Concrete was created by Pierre Schaeffer in the late forties (quickly
> joined by Pierre Henry with whom he made the masterpiece of the genre:
> SYMPHONIE POUR UN HOMME SEUL). The idea was to make music with sounds
> usually not considered as musical. Basically sounds made by objects associated
> to all human activities. It could the noise of a squeaky door, the noises from
> steam machines, etc. Schaeffer gathered all the theoretical foundations of his
> baby in the awesome T.O.M. (TRAITE DES OBJETS MUSICAUX). In its purest form,
> the music was not supposed to use sounds prooduced by electronic equipements,
> although these were heavily used for processing (including the weird machine
> to slow/speed sounds without changing the pitches!). You also need to know that
> Schaeffer was quite desilusioned with the whole idea by the end of his life.
> In the early fifties, every modern European composers had created his piece
> of music concrete. Very few are unfortunately available (Boulez, for example,
> erased it from his catalog).

Pierre Schaeffer is always mentioned as the one who first came up with the idea
of musique concrete, but I believe the origin of the genre can be traced at least
as far back as Walter Rutman, who used the sound-track of pieces of celluloid
to record "non-musical sounds" as far back as 1928. There is a 3" CD in Metamkine's
"Cinema d'oreil" series called "Weekend" documenting this.








-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "William York" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Hip Hop
Date: 21 Mar 2002 08:45:47

>death metal didn't start with morbid angel nor suffocation. i am >sorry. i
>know you didn't have time to explain yourself, but i just >couldn't let
>anyone say that morbid angel originated anything as >important as this.

I'm sorry if there was a misunderstanding, but if you reread what I wrote
you will see that I didn't claim that they originated the genre. I was
merely pointing them out as two of the better examples of death metal that,
depending on how you look at it, could be viewed as a type of American
(hence no mention of ND) avant-garde music from that era. (No hard feelings,
of course ...)

And yes I have the early Napalm Death stuff ... (My favorite from that era
is the Peel Sessions stuff, though, not the studio recs.) I agree, the pure
energy/sound aspect of the ND stuff is amazing. I was mentioning Suffocation
and MA more based on how out the songwriting was.

Take care,

WY

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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ricardo Jorge" <[e-mail]>
Subject: kato hideki+nuno rebelo + marco F. in UK
Date: 21 Mar 2002 09:15:11 +0000

Nuno Rebelo + Kato Hideki + Marco Franco
U.K. Tour
May / June 2002
After the gig at Atlantic Waves / London Jazz Festival, the trio was invited
by Music Stuff - Tour production for a tour of about 10 concerts in England.
More info about the venues and dates as soon as it's set.
NR - guitar, KH - bass, MF - drums.





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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Efr=E9n=20del=20Valle?= <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fwd: Re: Hip Hop
Date: 21 Mar 2002 10:21:01 +0100 (CET)

Mike wrote:

anyone who doesn't own
> ND's first two albums
> (scum, and from enslavement to obliteration) they
> are still to this day the
> most extreme death metal recordings ever made based
> on pure raw energy.
> nothing has come close to capturing the intensity
> and extremity before or
> since).

Carcass' first album DID capture "intensity and
extremity" at that level, IMHO. It's one of the most
brutal records I've ever heard. Unfortunately, they
seem to have softened in subsequent releases.

Best,

EfrΘn del Valle
n.p: Bob Dylan "Blonde on Blonde"

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Efr=E9n=20del=20Valle?= <[e-mail]>
Subject: Sean Lennon/Cibo Matto
Date: 21 Mar 2002 10:43:19 +0100 (CET)

Hi,

I'd like to know your thoughts on Sean Lennon's "Into
the Sun" and Cibo Matto's "Viva La Woman". From the
former I've read anything but good reviews here but
I'm still curious.
Also, did anyone have a chance to hear the Yuka
Honda's release on Tzadik?

I'm always asking...

Thanks in advance.

Best,

EfrΘn del Valle

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Arthur Gadney" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Sean Lennon/Cibo Matto
Date: 21 Mar 2002 10:10:54 +0000

Hello.

>I'd like to know your thoughts on Sean Lennon's "Into
>the Sun"

Well, it's kind of a pop thing... Nothing too special. I wouldn't pay more
than $5 for it;

>and Cibo Matto's "Viva La Woman".

This I really love. My first impresion was rather bad, actually, but now I
think it's one of the best pop albums of the last ten years. Cute and
creative. (Note: avoid their next album "Stereotype A". It's very bad,
except for one song called "Spoon" which is perfect and features Dave
Douglas, Marc Ribot and all the others...)

Buy buy.

NP: Can: "Tago Mago"
NR: http://www.veteransforpeace.com/

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Taylor McLaren <[e-mail]>
Subject: re: straight outta...
Date: 21 Mar 2002 05:17:42 -0500 (EST)

skip heller wrote:
> The often wished-for Next Beatles turned out to be Run DMC.
> Not only did their music connect big, but anything advertised
> at young people from 1987 on had some sort of hip-hop quotient
> attatched to it.  And the musical/sonic intensity of it --
> and the aggression of its message -- only got nastier.  yeah,
> you had some rap lite, but groups like PE were outselling it
> over time.
I know this going right off on a tangent now, since the original
question was about the influences behind the early stuff (I think),
but I think it's funny that (1) Run-DMC had to cover an Aerosmith
song before commercial radio would even consider playing this weirdo
brand of music (remember, this was around the same time that MTV
wouldn't play Michael Jackson's videos because he was black... er...
um... because of their "objectionable content", yeah, that's
right...), and (2) most of the "rap lite" stuff in today's market is
easily outselling PE and all of the classics by virtue of its
violent, nasty appeal.
  A quick look at the RIAA site and its gold/platinum certification
lists shows that PE hasn't exactly torn up the charts since
"Apocalypse '91", which went platinum in the year of its release.
("Fear of a Black Planet" did the same sort of business; "Nation of
Millions" took the better part of a year to go platinum.) Sure,
"Muse-Sick-n-Hour-Mess-Age" has gone gold, but I don't even see
"There's a Poison Goin' On" listed... who knows if this has anything
to do with how it was released or not, but still... Meanwhile,
offerings from the likes of Busta Rhymes, Maxwell, and even $@&#ing
Jennifer Lopez have gone platinum or multi-platinum in the space of a
couple of months, judging from recent entries to the bestsellers
lists. In terms of their influence on anything contemporary, sure, PE
are right near the top of the list, but in terms of actual sales...
well, you're looking at a situation that a major label bean counter
would consider only somewhat less dire than the one facing somebody
like Marc Ribot or Don Byron, ie. you're into bloodletting territory
these days.
  (Point of interest: De La Soul have only gone platinum once, with
"3 Feet High and Rising", and "Straight Outta Compton" was actually
certified multi-platinum in '92... interesting how the violent stuff
does really well, isn't it? Even now, I'm amazed that people once
considered Chuck D to be a violent person and not just incredibly
pissed off with the state of the universe.)

I'm probably going to look back on this when it shows up in the
digest in a few hours' time and think that I'm babbling on to no real
effect, so I'll shut up now.

-me



______________________________________________________________________
File your taxes online! http://taxes.yahoo.ca

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Caleb T. Deupree" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: explanation for a child
Date: 21 Mar 2002 07:18:05 -0500

At 09:26 AM 3/20/02 -0800, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:
>
>The idea of musique concrete, as a separate genre, did not last long since
>after the creation of electronic music in 1953 in Koln by Herbert Heimer,
both
>genres quickly fused to become electroacoustic music (or acousmatic, if you
>follow the French school).

Although this statement is the conventional wisdom, the genre is alive and
well.  There are quite a few new cds that claim very legitimately to be
musique concrete, including (among others) most of the Metamkine Cinema
pour l'oreille and the empreintes digitales label in Canada.  Ralf Wehowsky
and Kevin Drumm's recent release says 'musique concrete realized in Chicago
and Mainz' in great big letters on the cover.
--

Caleb Deupree
[e-mail]

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Mike Chamberlain <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: explanation for a child
Date: 21 Mar 2002 09:17:35 -0500

on 3/21/02 7:18 AM, Caleb T. Deupree at [e-mail] wrote:

> At 09:26 AM 3/20/02 -0800, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:
>>
>> The idea of musique concrete, as a separate genre, did not last long since
>> after the creation of electronic music in 1953 in Koln by Herbert Heimer,
> both
>> genres quickly fused to become electroacoustic music (or acousmatic, if you
>> follow the French school).
>
> Although this statement is the conventional wisdom, the genre is alive and
> well.  There are quite a few new cds that claim very legitimately to be
> musique concrete, including (among others) most of the Metamkine Cinema
> pour l'oreille and the empreintes digitales label in Canada.

As for the empreintes digitales material, while musique concrete is
definitely a significant part of many recordings, I think it would more
properly be labeled electroacoustic according to the definition above.
Indeed, the press material and liner notes generally refer to the music as
electroacoustic, FWIW.  I'm not that big on labels, I just found your point
interesting in light of the way that empreintes digitales produces their
albums.  The packaging is excellent, if ultimately a bit fragile.

--Mike


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From: James Miller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: hip Hop
Date: 21 Mar 2002 08:25:06 -0600 (CST)

Zorn people:

First, thanks for the interesting responses to my questions about hip hop.
It's interesting that the discussion has focused on hip hop as something
"totally new" or "revolutionary." While I don't necessarily disagree with
that argument, my original question had more to do with locating links,
secret histories, trajectories of influence. I was thinking of things like
the following (which may or may not be accurate, that's why I asked):

Hip hop's links to disco, dance culture of the 70s-- club culture, etc.
The Last Poets
Reggae, dub and stdio technology (Big Youth, etc)
Amiri Baraka, Black Arts, etc
Oneness of Juju, other 60s-70s collectives (if they exist?)
obviously, funk and soul culture

That sort of thing. Are these genuine links, and has anyone researched
them? I don't want to make claims for the music yet, I just want to grasp
how it fits into the cultural/historical matrix, so to speak.

Thanks again,

Andy


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Moudry <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fwd: How Come?
Date: 21 Mar 2002 09:02:52 -0600

>X-Originating-IP: [67.40.17.209]
>From: "john schuller" <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: How Come?
>Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 17:43:31 -0800
>X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Mar 2002 01:43:31.0403 (UTC)
>FILETIME=[A3E5E1B0:01C1CFB0]
>Sender: [e-mail]
>Status:
>
>How come Zorn has categories in the Tzadik catalog that are
>race/religion/gender based? I can understand the Composer
>series/Film Series/Key Series...but what gives with the
>Jewish/Woman/Asian series?
>
>Curious,
>John Schuller
><snip!>

In a word: minorities, in that they are series for those who are not
male, Western European, and with other attributes of the Old Boy
Network. And more power to Zorn for doing these series: the more
diverse of offerings, the better a chance I have of being knocked out
by something that would never be had from Sony/Time-Wqwrner/EMI and
the other bean-counter dominated labels.

Saturnally,
--
Joe Moudry
Office of Academic Computing & Technology
School of Education, UAB

Master of Saturn Web (Sun Ra, the Arkestra & Free Jazz);
<http://www.dpo.uab.edu/~moudry>
Producer/Host of Classic Jazz & Creative Improv on Alabama Public Radio

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Arthur Gadney" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Fwd: How Come?
Date: 21 Mar 2002 15:23:23 +0000

Hello.

>>How come Zorn has categories in the Tzadik catalog that are
>>race/religion/gender based?

Why not??

>>I can understand the Composer
>>series/Film Series/Key Series...but what gives with the
>>Jewish/Woman/Asian series?

Yes, composers are fine, but women, jews and asians have no place in music
;-)

I must say I don't care much for Zorn labelling of the stuff; I just buy
whatever I like and that's it. I would, however, like to see A LOT more
releases in the women's series!

Cheers,

NP: Massacre: "Meltdown"
NR: "The Trial Of Henry Kissinger" by Christopher Hitchens

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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Arthur Gadney" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Dave Douglas with strings
Date: 21 Mar 2002 15:56:46 +0000

"Parallel Worlds" or "Five"????

Thanks.



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Efr=E9n=20del=20Valle?= <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fwd: Dave Douglas with strings
Date: 21 Mar 2002 17:10:58 +0100 (CET)

"Parallel Worlds" or "Five"????
>
> Thanks.

"Five"!!!!!

The most important Spanish jazz magazine even included
it among the best 10 or 20 records of the last decade-
this is obviously not a guarantee but somehow shows
how welcome it was when released. I like it quite a
lot, much more than "Parallel Words". I have no
specific reasons to recommend it to you. Just a good
album with great performers and fine compositions
(which is a lot, isn't it?).

Best,

EfrΘn del Valle

_______________________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Messenger
Comunicaci≤n instantßnea gratis con tu gente.
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Arthur Gadney" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Curlew = the Paradox and Arcada trios.
Date: 21 Mar 2002 16:17:51 +0000

Hello again guys.

1) How many Arcada String Trio CDs are there? As of right now, I can only
manage to track down the "Live In Europe" CD, but it's an import so rather
expensive. Is it worth it??

2) A also want to pick up a Curlew disc, and was thinking of either "A
Beautiful Western Saddle" or "Bee", since I like Tom Cora. I understand that
"A Beautiful..." is with vocals, so I think I should probably go for "Bee",
since vocals rarely cut it in there parts. Seems like a good idea?

Any recommendations for the Paradox Trio? I hear they are kind of related to
Pachora, which I really like.

Thanx.











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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Sean Lennon/Cibo Matto
Date: 21 Mar 2002 11:19:31 EST


In a message dated 03.21.02 04.43.57, [e-mail] writes:

>I'd like to know your thoughts on Sean Lennon's "Into
>the Sun" and Cibo Matto's "Viva La Woman". From the
>former I've read anything but good reviews here but
>I'm still curious.

i waited and waited for "into the sun" to come out.  for like a year.  "into
the sun" has a pretty amazing cast of performers on it (yuka honda, john
medeski and more), and the music portion of the album i really dig.  i also
have to give a shout out to sean lennon who plays about a zillion instruments
on this disc and also did all of the liner note artwork, which is really
cool.  HOWEVER, a precautionary note - bob dylan (or john lennon) sean is
not.  the lyric writing on this album is pretty awful, in my opinion.  there
are a few exceptions - i really like "sean's theme" - 'waiting and waiting
for my eggs to hatch / waiting and waiting for something to catch' is cool
when reiterated - but for the most part the lyrics are extremely poor.  and
to make matters worse, he printed the lyrics in the j-card.

ick.

i'm incredibly sick of cibo matto, so i'm not going to review viva la woman!.
 :)

love,
  k8.




---
[.n0thing.is.what.is.sAid.]
k a t e  p e t e r s o n
c o m p o s e r / p e r f o r m e r

http://www.geocities.com/uforbk8/kate.html
http://www.icefoundation.org (roundtable)

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Curlew
Date: 21 Mar 2002 11:37:48 EST

Arthur wrote:

>A also want to pick up a Curlew disc, and was thinking of either "A
>Beautiful Western Saddle" or "Bee", since I like Tom Cora. I understand
>that
>"A Beautiful..." is with vocals, so I think I should probably go for "Bee",
>since vocals rarely cut it in there parts. Seems like a good idea?

The most well known version of Curlew (George Cartwright, Tom Cora, Davey
Williams, Ann Rupel & Pippin Barnett) despite having been together for the
longest period of time in the band's history (about 5-6 years) only made two
albums "Bee" and A Beautiful Western Saddle + one live video.

This was a great version of the band, so picking up "Bee" would not be a bad
idea at all. And Tom has some very very fine moments on this album.

We (Cuneiform Records) will be reissuing Curlew's 2nd album, North America,
in September with mucho bonus live tracks. This album & these live tracks
will also feature Tom Cora.

FYI: Tom appears also appeared on:
Curlew - Curlew (1st ) (out of print)
        - Live In Berlin

Steve /
Cuneiform

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Sean Westergaard" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Curlew = the Paradox and Arcada trios.
Date: 21 Mar 2002 11:30:01 -0500



>2) A also want to pick up a Curlew disc, and was thinking of either "A
>Beautiful Western Saddle" or "Bee", since I like Tom Cora. I understand
that
>"A Beautiful..." is with vocals, so I think I should probably go for "Bee",
>since vocals rarely cut it in there parts. Seems like a good idea?

go for Bee.  it's fantastic. I wasn't wild about Beautiful Western Saddle,
but i'm not really a Paul Haines fan (he did Escalator over the Hill lyrics
too)  curlew's sound changed a bit with the absence of Cora, but there is
other good stuff.  What I've heard of the new one, Meet the Curlews, has
been good too, with the sound changing again with the addition of a piano
player.  Davey Williams still rocks

>Any recommendations for the Paradox Trio? I hear they are kind of related
to
>Pachora, which I really like.

start with Flying at a Slant, then the self titled one.  I wasn't so wild
about the source, which was a collaboration with Lorin Sklamberg of the
Klezmatics doing some vocals, but i'm often not vocally oriented.  if you
dig Pachora, you'll like Paradox trio.  Rufus Cappadoccia is a monster on
cello.  if you like that sound, look into Brad Shepik's albums with the
Commuters (on Songlines)

sean











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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Curlew = the Paradox and Arcada trios.
Date: 21 Mar 2002 08:43:33 -0800


On Thu, 21 Mar 2002 16:17:51 +0000  "Arthur Gadney" wrote:
>
> Hello again guys.
>
> 1) How many Arcada String Trio CDs are there? As of right now, I can only
> manage to track down the "Live In Europe" CD, but it's an import so rather
> expensive. Is it worth it??

As far as I know:


008 - ARCADO: Arcado

  Mark Dresser: bass; Mark Feldman: violin; Hank Roberts: cello.

    1989 - jMT (Germany), JMT 834 429-1 (CD)
    1989 - jMT (Germany), JMT 834 429-2 (CD)


009 - BEHIND THE MYTH: Arcado

  Mark Dresser: bass; Mark Feldman: violin; Hank Roberts: cello.

    1990 - jMT (Germany), 834 441-2 (CD)


013 - FOR THREE STRINGS AND ORCHESTRA: Arcado

    Recorded in June 1991

  Mark Dresser: contrabass; Mark Feldman: violin; Hank Roberts: cello; Kolner
  Rundfunk Orchester conducted by David De Villiers.

    1992 - jMT (Germany), 849 152-2 (CD)


053 - GREEN DOLPHY SUITE: Double Trio

    Recorded at Tonstudio Bauer, Ludwigsburg, Germany on September 14 and 15,
    1994

  Trio de Clarinettes: Louis Sclavis, Armand Angster, Jacques Di Donato;
  Arcado String Trio: Mark Feldman, Ernst Reijseger, Mark Dresser.

    1995 - Enja (Germany), ENJ-9011 2 (CD)


062 - LIVE IN EUROPE: Arcado String Trio

    Recorded March-April 1994

  Mark Feldman: violin; Mark Dresser: bass; Ernst Reijseger: cello.

    1996 - Avant (Japan), Avan 058 (CD)


    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Kurt Gottschalk" <[e-mail]>
Subject: O Canada
Date: 21 Mar 2002 16:47:17 +0000

hi -- i'm looking for new jersey connections to the victo fest, in the
audience or performers. any nj denizens planning to go? (brian, you in this
year?) and i know gerry hemingway lives in nj. anyone else? is lee ranaldo a
garden state native, or did i just make that up?

thanks.

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Stockhausen's Light
Date: 21 Mar 2002 11:47:08 EST

Hey,

I was just wondering if any of you knew where I could find videos of the parts of Light that have been already performed that don't cost 50 kazillion dollars.  KS only sells parts of Thursday and Monday on his site.

Thanks,
Ryan

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Stockhausen's Light
Date: 21 Mar 2002 11:56:32 EST


In a message dated 03.21.02 11.48.05, [e-mail] writes:

>I was just wondering if any of you knew where I could find videos of the
>parts of Light that have been already performed that don't cost 50 kazillion
>dollars.  KS only sells parts of Thursday and Monday on his site.

if it's not on the stockhausen website, it's probably not available
commercially - stockhausen-verlag is the only publisher handling scores and
recordings (including video) of stockhausen's stuff currently, to my
knowledge.

(i love stockhausen so much)

love,
  k8.




---
[.n0thing.is.what.is.sAid.]
k a t e  p e t e r s o n
c o m p o s e r / p e r f o r m e r

http://www.geocities.com/uforbk8/kate.html
http://www.icefoundation.org (roundtable)

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Whit Schonbein <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Arcado string trio
Date: 21 Mar 2002 10:56:21 -0600 (CST)


"Arthur Gadney" <[e-mail]> wrote:

1) How many Arcada String Trio CDs are there? As of right now, I can only
manage to track down the "Live In Europe" CD, but it's an import so rather
expensive. Is it worth it??

I have 'live in europe' and 'double trio' (the latter is actually a band
called 'double trio', the title of the album is 'green dolphy suite', it's
on ENJA, and consists in the arcado trio and the trio de clarinettes
(sclavis, angster, di donato) combined).  I think the latter is great.
Live in europe has never grabbed me like the double trio disc.  One reason
is that the compositions (one from each member) on the double disc are
very nice - i especially enjoy mark feldman's 'cold water music'.  another
is that the sound on the live in europe is more distant, with 'concert
hall echo'.  the end result is that, when i go to play a disc with arcado,
it tends to be the double trio disc.  perhaps i need to listen to live in
europe again soon...but i don't hesitate to endorse the double trio disc
over live in europe.

whit


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Sean Lennon/Cibo Matto
Date: 21 Mar 2002 09:01:53 -0800


On Thu, 21 Mar 2002 10:10:54 +0000  "Arthur Gadney" wrote:
>
> Hello.
>
> >I'd like to know your thoughts on Sean Lennon's "Into
> >the Sun"
>
> Well, it's kind of a pop thing... Nothing too special. I wouldn't pay more
> than $5 for it;

It is a sweet record. Nothing earth shattering like the others said, but
there are some moments that are quite moving by their fragility.

Does anybody know about the fate of the second Sean Lennon record on Grand
Royal (now that the label is dead)?

Also, since we are dealing with the son a famous artist, what happened to
Eric Mingus's TOO MANY BULLETS...NOT ENOUGH SOUL? Should have been out last
year but I have not seen it yet.

Talking about kids of famous people,
> >and Cibo Matto's "Viva La Woman".
>

This is a really fun and upbeat record. It goes well with any kind of
drinks :-).

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: stockhausen
Date: 21 Mar 2002 12:02:21 EST

what is stockhausen's website?

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: hip Hop
Date: 21 Mar 2002 12:17:13 -0600

On Thu, Mar 21, 2002 at 08:25:06AM -0600, James Miller wrote:

> Hip hop's links to disco, dance culture of the 70s-- club culture, etc.
> The Last Poets
> Reggae, dub and stdio technology (Big Youth, etc)
> Amiri Baraka, Black Arts, etc
> Oneness of Juju, other 60s-70s collectives (if they exist?)
> obviously, funk and soul culture

There's one interesting punk/noise link: the hip-hop classic "White
Lines" is apparently derived (there's a decades old argument about it)
from "Cavern" by Liquid Liquid. Liquid Liquid (did I just type "Liquid
Liquid. Liquid Liquid"? Oy.) started out as a punk/noise band at
Rutgers named Liquid Idiot, who revelled in being utterly unable to
play their instruments -- IIRC, they would switch when they started
getting competent.  I think I was the first to play their stuff on the
radio, on our college station; the small number of complaints i got
was probably due to the miniscule on-campus audience :-)

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Verstraeten Stefan" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: musique concrete dead???
Date: 21 Mar 2002 18:28:04 +0100

I'd like to second that opinion....
There is indeed a very (and i mean indeed very) active "musique concrete"
scene in france (thanks to promotors such as Metamkine). I have seen lotsa
concerts based on the sound of organ pipes activated by hoovers, amplified
metal office bureaus, toys (think of pierre bastien and pascal comelade),
and so on and on.

But yes, most performers have no record deal so there is little
documentation..... but the music is alive and very active (both performers
and audience)

Best wishes,
Stefan Verstraeten

np Chas Smith: Wolverine blues (wich is based on musique concrete)

> From: Mike Chamberlain <[e-mail]>
> Subject: Re: explanation for a child
>
> on 3/21/02 7:18 AM, Caleb T. Deupree at [e-mail] wrote:
>
> > At 09:26 AM 3/20/02 -0800, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:
> >>
> >> The idea of musique concrete, as a separate genre, did not last long
since
> >> after the creation of electronic music in 1953 in Koln by Herbert
Heimer,
> > both
> >> genres quickly fused to become electroacoustic music (or acousmatic, if
you
> >> follow the French school).
> >
> > Although this statement is the conventional wisdom, the genre is alive
and
> > well.  There are quite a few new cds that claim very legitimately to be
> > musique concrete, including (among others) most of the Metamkine Cinema
> > pour l'oreille and the empreintes digitales label in Canada.
>
> As for the empreintes digitales material, while musique concrete is
> definitely a significant part of many recordings, I think it would more
> properly be labeled electroacoustic according to the definition above.
> Indeed, the press material and liner notes generally refer to the music as
> electroacoustic, FWIW.  I'm not that big on labels, I just found your
point
> interesting in light of the way that empreintes digitales produces their
> albums.  The packaging is excellent, if ultimately a bit fragile.
>
> - --Mike



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Stockhausen's Light
Date: 21 Mar 2002 12:26:57 -0600

On Thu, Mar 21, 2002 at 11:56:32AM -0500, [e-mail] wrote:

> (i love stockhausen so much)

Honsetly curious here: what do you love about Stockhausen, that you
find missing in other very similar sounding music that you referred to
earlier as "bullshit"?

I love some Stockhausen, don't care for other parts of his stuff -- he's
had a long and varied career.

np: MP3's from "Montaug aus Licht", by coincidence.

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: stockhausen
Date: 21 Mar 2002 12:32:03 -0600

On Thu, Mar 21, 2002 at 12:02:21PM -0500, [e-mail] wrote:
> what is stockhausen's website?

http://www.stockhausen.org/

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: musique concrete dead???
Date: 21 Mar 2002 09:46:16 -0800


On Thu, 21 Mar 2002 18:28:04 +0100  "Verstraeten Stefan" wrote:
>
> I'd like to second that opinion....
> There is indeed a very (and i mean indeed very) active "musique concrete"
> scene in france (thanks to promotors such as Metamkine). I have seen lotsa
> concerts based on the sound of organ pipes activated by hoovers, amplified
> metal office bureaus, toys (think of pierre bastien and pascal comelade),
> and so on and on.
>
> But yes, most performers have no record deal so there is little
> documentation..... but the music is alive and very active (both performers
> and audience)

It would be interesting to shed some light on the motives behind the use of
the name MUSIQUE CONCRETE (by these younger composers). Could it be simply
that electronic music these days encompasses so many different genres from
the most obscure to the most commercial, that a different label was
needed?

On the other side, MUSIQUE CONCRETE belongs to a bigone era and has a
quaint charm. It might help young creators of experimental electroacoustic
music to differentiate themselves from an expression ("electronic music")
that has lost any power of classification (and I know, reading REVUE &
CORRIGEE, that has annoyed some of these new composers).

I feel that these composers who produce music under the MUSIQUE CONCRETE
umbrella espoused more the philosophy of the MUSIQUE CONCRETE than really
its fairly draconian methodology.

Anyway, historically, after Stockhausen's GESANG DER JUNGLINGE (1956), the
differentiation between MUSIQUE CONCRETE and electronic music lost its
relevance. Happy to know that some composers want to open the debate
again :-).

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: hip Hop
Date: 21 Mar 2002 09:50:15 -0800

on 3/21/02 10:17 AM, Joseph Zitt at [e-mail] wrote:

> On Thu, Mar 21, 2002 at 08:25:06AM -0600, James Miller wrote:
>
>> Hip hop's links to disco, dance culture of the 70s-- club culture, etc.
>> The Last Poets
>> Reggae, dub and stdio technology (Big Youth, etc)
>> Amiri Baraka, Black Arts, etc
>> Oneness of Juju, other 60s-70s collectives (if they exist?)
>> obviously, funk and soul culture
>
> There's one interesting punk/noise link: the hip-hop classic "White
> Lines" is apparently derived (there's a decades old argument about it)
> from "Cavern" by Liquid Liquid. Liquid Liquid (did I just type "Liquid
> Liquid. Liquid Liquid"? Oy.) started out as a punk/noise band at
> Rutgers named Liquid Idiot, who revelled in being utterly unable to
> play their instruments -- IIRC, they would switch when they started
> getting competent.  I think I was the first to play their stuff on the
> radio, on our college station; the small number of complaints i got
> was probably due to the miniscule on-campus audience :-)
>
The Last Poets are certainly an early influence, as are Gil Scott Heron,
Iceberg Slim, Rudy Ray Moore, and, obviously, Richard Pryor.  The African
music influence was not universal, but was definitely string in some
people's music.

As for its relationship to club culture, it's not as automatically strong as
one might suppose, for two reasons -- the early proponents of the music were
often too young to get into clubs, and also, since the music was not seen
yet as a commercial force, it wasn't really something clubs were willing to
take a chance on (and, later, its alleged potential for violence kept many
club owners from wanting to take a chance on it).  The early guys  like
Spoonie G or Jekyll & Hyde  and them were most often putting their shows on
at neighborhood youth centers or independently promoted parties etc.  Radio
helped early on as well.

The dub connection was, at least in the early period, tenuous at best.
Until "The Message" (1982), most rap records were really about a party
atmosphere.  Probably the most written-about dub LP in this country up to
that point was Linton Kwesi Johnson's FORCES OF VICTORY, which, if the Flash
guys heard it at all, they probably would have heard fr one of the guys in
the Clash, for whom they opened at least one show at Bond's.  I remember Joe
"I'm One of the PEOPLE" Strummer making it a point to get his picture taken
with Melle Mel in some big rock mag.

Hip-hop's connection to existing rhythm and blues culture is obviously much
stronger.  Bottom line -- it IS a rhythm and blues form, just by nature of
what community it comes out of and what the raw materials are.  You think
all them James Brown samples were an accident? These guys were definitely
sending up a huge message about what they related to and where they feel
they came from.

skip h
NP: norman blake - back home in sulphur springs (talk about a guitar
record...)


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: From "The Onion"
Date: 21 Mar 2002 10:08:29 -0800


On Thu, 21 Mar 2002 01:01:57 +0100  duncan youngerman wrote:
>
> My only problem is that that's the kind of corny joke the Reader's Digest or the
> St Louis Gazette used to make more than 50 years ago about Picasso, Jackson
> Pollock, or John Cage or  any form of modernity (beatniks, etc.).
> Aside from that, laugh on, man!

But the joke is mainly directed to music that has been around for more than
50 years and still puzzle 99.9999% of the people. The joke is not making fun
of music made now by young artists looking for new avenues (which was the
cases that you list above -- like Pollock in the 50s). Basically the joke can
be interpreted as:

    Fifty years ago you [the composers made fun of] came up with music
    so abstract that only a few elite seemed to get it. But you also
    claimed that you were making the music of the future, and that one day
    the masses would finaly see the light [put you political vision here
    to explain how this would happen]. But here we are at the begining of
    the XXI century, and it does not appear that after all these years,
    all these books, thesis, records, etc, that this music has been
    able to convince anybody out of the usual group of specialists and
    unconditional fans of the obscure. Hence we [the people who are
    making fun of these composers] feel that it would not hurt to shake
    a little bit the holy cow.

For people (and they are numerous) who feel that a genre of modern music
promissed much more that it effectively delivered, the joke makes some
sense. I do not agree with the joke (since the composers mentioned are among
my favorites), but I completely understand what motivates making such a
joke. I feel sometimes that the ball in our camp to explain to people why
so much abstract music is worth listening, and why after so many decades it
appears as abstract as it was at its creation (without the freshness
associated to its creation).

    Patrice.

>
> [e-mail] a Θcrit :
>
> >    anything is that is, was, or will ever be printed in the onion article
> > wise is of course a JOKE! - those who are upset by this supposed
> > self-degrading joke of an article are taking themselves way too seriously and
> > have no identifiable sense of humor.
> >
> >     i thought the article was witty and it cleverly poked fun at people - not
> > unlike some on this list - who take all things music too serious. i love john
> > zorn to death, i think he's an absolute genius, but i've encountered some
> > types that would buy an album of him farting and belching profusely and then
> > discuss how well he blended the two styles together and or his brilliantly
> > suttle use of dynamics in the first movement. get the point?
> >
> > someones new enemy - mike
> >
> > -
>
>
> -
>


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Benito Vergara" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: hip Hop
Date: 21 Mar 2002 10:09:10 -0800

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail]
> [mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of skip Heller
> Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2002 9:50 AM

> The dub connection was, at least in the early period, tenuous at best.
> Until "The Message" (1982), most rap records were really about a party
> atmosphere.  Probably the most written-about dub LP in this country up to
> that point was Linton Kwesi Johnson's FORCES OF VICTORY, which,

I can see what you're saying: no reverbs, no echo delays, no dropping in and
out of vocals. But surely Kool Herc, a Jamaican himself, wouldn't have been
able to set up his sound system (okay, not dub) and start toasting over the
breakbeats (okay, not dub either) without knowledge of what King Tubby and
Lee Perry were able to do in the studio.

In any case, I can't see how hip-hop could have emerged without DJs like Big
Youth, I-Roy or Prince Jazzbo -- but again, you're partially right, in the
sense that folks in the U.S. were listening to Bob or Peter or Jimmy
instead...

Later,
Ben

np: nico fidenco, "black emmanuelle's groove"

http://members.tripod.com/~tamad2/
ICQ/AIM: thewilyfilipino / Yahoo!: sunny70


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: hip Hop
Date: 21 Mar 2002 10:19:32 -0800

on 3/21/02 10:09 AM, Benito Vergara at [e-mail] wrote:

> I can see what you're saying: no reverbs, no echo delays, no dropping in and
> out of vocals. But surely Kool Herc, a Jamaican himself, wouldn't have been
> able to set up his sound system (okay, not dub) and start toasting over the
> breakbeats (okay, not dub either) without knowledge of what King Tubby and
> Lee Perry were able to do in the studio.
>
> In any case, I can't see how hip-hop could have emerged without DJs like Big
> Youth, I-Roy or Prince Jazzbo -- but again, you're partially right, in the
> sense that folks in the U.S. were listening to Bob or Peter or Jimmy
> instead...

I apologize for leaving out Kool Herc, because he was so important, but I
don't really think he was looking at Big Youth and taking his cues there,
otherwise the actual content of what he did would have been much different.
Surely he would have been more studio-oriented, which he never did become.
Also, if that was the case, wouldn't he have then used reggae-oriented
beats? From what I know of him, it was a lot of "part 2"'s of dance records.

Also, Bob, Jimmy, and Peter made more of a splash in the white world than
the black music community (dancability was an issue, I'm sure) in this
country.

skip h


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Chris Selvig <[e-mail]>
Subject: Pierre Henry
Date: 21 Mar 2002 10:32:41 -0800

I recently saw a Pierre Henry CD filed in the Pop section of a Best Buy
store under the name "Henry Pierre."  Tee hee!

Chris Selvig


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Efr=E9n=20del=20Valle?= <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fwd: Pierre Henry
Date: 21 Mar 2002 19:28:49 +0100 (CET)

Not so long ago, Marc Ribot's "Shoe String
Symphonettes" was filed in FNAC under Latin
Music!??!!!

Greetings,

EfrΘn del Valle

>
> I recently saw a Pierre Henry CD filed in the Pop
> section of a Best Buy
> store under the name "Henry Pierre."  Tee hee!
>
> Chris Selvig
>
>
> -
>

_______________________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Messenger
Comunicaci≤n instantßnea gratis con tu gente.
http://messenger.yahoo.es

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: From "The Onion"
Date: 21 Mar 2002 13:19:46 -0600

On Thu, Mar 21, 2002 at 10:08:29AM -0800, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:

> But the joke is mainly directed to music that has been around for more than
> 50 years and still puzzle 99.9999% of the people. The joke is not making fun
> of music made now by young artists looking for new avenues (which was the
> cases that you list above -- like Pollock in the 50s). Basically the joke can
> be interpreted as:

But note that the music had a direct influence on a lot of music that
people experience everyday, to the extent that they take them for
granted: film and TV soundtracks. Perhaps the difference is that the
music was taken from its "abstract" beginnings and applied to a more
concrete (in the English, not French sense) situation and attached to
a visual correlation.

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: the message
Date: 21 Mar 2002 13:36:22 EST

is anyone or everyone aware that Grandmaster Flash's "The Message" is
basically a Talking Heads song with different lyrics over it. I mean it's
much more of a rip-off than vanilla ice or mc hammer's sampling
controversies. why was this ok when rap was in it's infancy, but  once it
(rap music) started making money it became an issue. i have never heard
mention anywhere about the fact that that song (the message - renowned as an
important early rap recording, even by me earlier in these posts) was
basically kareoke. am i wrong? if so someone please set me straight. the
talking heads song did come out first right?

a curious grand master flash fan - mike thompson

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: the message
Date: 21 Mar 2002 13:32:19 -0600

On Thu, Mar 21, 2002 at 01:36:22PM -0500, [e-mail] wrote:
> is anyone or everyone aware that Grandmaster Flash's "The Message" is
> basically a Talking Heads song with different lyrics over it. I mean it's
> much more of a rip-off than vanilla ice or mc hammer's sampling
> controversies. why was this ok when rap was in it's infancy, but  once it
> (rap music) started making money it became an issue. i have never heard
> mention anywhere about the fact that that song (the message - renowned as an
> important early rap recording, even by me earlier in these posts) was
> basically kareoke. am i wrong? if so someone please set me straight. the
> talking heads song did come out first right?

We repeat, stay away from the brown acid.

Which Talking Heads track do you imagine they copped for "The Message"?

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: the message
Date: 21 Mar 2002 10:45:35 -0800

on 3/21/02 10:36 AM, [e-mail] at [e-mail] wrote:

> is anyone or everyone aware that Grandmaster Flash's "The Message" is
> basically a Talking Heads song with different lyrics over it. I mean it's
> much more of a rip-off than vanilla ice or mc hammer's sampling
> controversies. why was this ok when rap was in it's infancy, but  once it
> (rap music) started making money it became an issue. i have never heard
> mention anywhere about the fact that that song (the message - renowned as an
> important early rap recording, even by me earlier in these posts) was
> basically kareoke. am i wrong? if so someone please set me straight. the
> talking heads song did come out first right?
>
> a curious grand master flash fan - mike thompson
>
> -
>
which talking heads song?
sh


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: are we sure about his "message" ref?
Date: 21 Mar 2002 10:49:52 -0800

"It's Nasty" was based on "Genius Of Love" (Tom Tom Club was a TH spinoff).

Listening to the track to "The Message" (I am now), it sounds strikingly
close to part of the bass/drum track to Warren Zevon's "Nightime In The
Switching Yard" slowed down.

skip h


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: are we sure about his "message" ref?
Date: 21 Mar 2002 13:42:41 -0600

On Thu, Mar 21, 2002 at 10:49:52AM -0800, skip Heller wrote:

> Listening to the track to "The Message" (I am now), it sounds strikingly
> close to part of the bass/drum track to Warren Zevon's "Nightime In The
> Switching Yard" slowed down.

The instrumental track of "The Message" is close to identical to that
of "Cavern" by Liquid Liquid. A google search on "cavern liquid
grandmaster" brings up a lot of interesting links about this.

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "john schuller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: How Come?
Date: 21 Mar 2002 10:59:50 -0800

""""In a word: minorities, in that they are series for those who are not
male, Western European, and with other attributes of the Old Boy
Network. And more power to Zorn for doing these series: the more
diverse of offerings, the better a chance I have of being knocked out
by something that would never be had from Sony/Time-Wqwrner/EMI and
the other bean-counter dominated labels.

Saturnally,
- --
Joe Moudry
Office of Academic Computing & Technology
School of Education, UAB"""

Actually I think it is sad. I really can understand the idea of a Composer
Series, Film Series, Key Series etc. For the reson that those have to do
with MUSIC. I think that it is sad to further racial/religious/gender
division in the 21st Century. I don't see why it should matter if the music
is made by a Jew or an Atheist or a Hindu, if it is good music I would like
to hear it. It should not matter if the music is made by a male or female or
transgendered person. It should not matter if you are Asain, European,
African in descent- if the music is good- bring it on...

And I will go ahead and go on the record about the Japanese series---It is
cool with me. Just because it gives a specific location of the planet.

I don't know. Maybe I am dumb. Maybe people that actually already search out
music on a label like Tzadik still need that shit forced down are throats?




_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: How Come?
Date: 21 Mar 2002 14:02:09 -0600

On Thu, Mar 21, 2002 at 10:59:50AM -0800, john schuller wrote:

> Actually I think it is sad. I really can understand the idea of a Composer
> Series, Film Series, Key Series etc. For the reson that those have to do
> with MUSIC. I think that it is sad to further racial/religious/gender
> division in the 21st Century. I don't see why it should matter if the music
> is made by a Jew or an Atheist or a Hindu, if it is good music I would like
> to hear it. It should not matter if the music is made by a male or female or
> transgendered person. It should not matter if you are Asain, European,
> African in descent- if the music is good- bring it on...

As a Jew, I find Jewish music interesting. I suspect that Zorn does, too.
I would not be likely to seek out Radical Buddhist Culture, but it wouldn't
bother me if someone would want to start such a label.

It is often difficult for people who are not themselves members of a
group to understand the interest by members of that group in a
collective identity. It is also often true that members of the group
who have assimilated and wish to downplay that group identity's importance
for others to resent instances of representation of that collective
identity. Is either of these the case here?

> And I will go ahead and go on the record about the Japanese series---It is
> cool with me. Just because it gives a specific location of the planet.

So why the prejudice in favor of location-based organization? Is that in
any sense more interesting or worthwhile than music by members of a
culture who happen to be geographically dispersed? If so, why?

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: your right im an idiot
Date: 21 Mar 2002 14:15:56 EST

i meant the tom tom club. i am an idiot.

truth is i heard it in a class i'm in at school. we where doing critical
listening in the studio for production techniques and a student brought in th
tom tom club (which i, having just woken up, mistakingly put on here as the
talking heads). anyways, i was taken back by the fact it was identical to the
message. and frankly i was a bit dissapointed. anyways, all apologies for the
mix up. can you ever trust anything i say again? i doubt it.

self-loathing and sorry - mike

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: more on the tom tom club
Date: 21 Mar 2002 14:31:05 EST

ok - the tom tom club song is called "genuis of love" and it's clearly what
grand master used as a sample or whatever. no NOT the talking heads, though
if you do a search on "genius of love" on morpheus it comes up as a talking
heads song as well as the tom tom club. wierd huh? guess i am not the only
one who has mistaken this for a talking heads song.

ps. ice cube also used the music from the message on "check yo self (remix)"

pehaps i'll shut the hell up from now on - mike

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "john schuller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: How Come?
Date: 21 Mar 2002 11:33:09 -0800


>
>As a Jew, I find Jewish music interesting. I suspect that Zorn does, too.
>I would not be likely to seek out Radical Buddhist Culture, but it wouldn't
>bother me if someone would want to start such a label.
>
>It is often difficult for people who are not themselves members of a
>group to understand the interest by members of that group in a
>collective identity. It is also often true that members of the group
>who have assimilated and wish to downplay that group identity's importance
>for others to resent instances of representation of that collective
>identity. Is either of these the case here?


Actually I am part of a group. Everyone is. But I truly think that in the
age of "Political Correctness" that we really need to stop exploiting or
segregating people further based upon their ethnicity/ gender. (I now take
back the religion part...it just occured to me since a life style choice -
not something you are born as) It really doen not matter to me if the person
I am listening to is whatever. But to set it aside as something seperate of
music - "hey, here is some music made by a woman! Buy it because of that!" I
think it is wrong. I think in this day and age you should be able to make
music, sell music whatever based upon the music. Otherwise it is just as sad
as "Buy this Jennifer Lopez album! She is HOT!". A bunch of Minstrel show
shit.
>
> > And I will go ahead and go on the record about the Japanese series---It
>is
> > cool with me. Just because it gives a specific location of the planet.
>
>So why the prejudice in favor of location-based organization? Is that in
>any sense more interesting or worthwhile than music by members of a
>culture who happen to be geographically dispersed? If so, why?

Location is just location.

_________________________________________________________________
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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: more on the tom tom club
Date: 21 Mar 2002 14:24:11 -0600

On Thu, Mar 21, 2002 at 02:31:05PM -0500, [e-mail] wrote:

> ok - the tom tom club song is called "genuis of love" and it's clearly what
> grand master used as a sample or whatever. no NOT the talking heads, though
> if you do a search on "genius of love" on morpheus it comes up as a talking
> heads song as well as the tom tom club. wierd huh? guess i am not the only
> one who has mistaken this for a talking heads song.

If you're referring to "The Message", you're still wrong. Actually
listening to the songs you're talking about might prove useful.

> ps. ice cube also used the music from the message on "check yo self (remix)"
>
> pehaps i'll shut the hell up from now on - mike

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: more on the tom tom club
Date: 21 Mar 2002 11:37:43 -0800

on 3/21/02 12:24 PM, Joseph Zitt at [e-mail] wrote:

> On Thu, Mar 21, 2002 at 02:31:05PM -0500, [e-mail] wrote:
>
>> ok - the tom tom club song is called "genuis of love" and it's clearly what
>> grand master used as a sample or whatever. no NOT the talking heads, though
>> if you do a search on "genius of love" on morpheus it comes up as a talking
>> heads song as well as the tom tom club. wierd huh? guess i am not the only
>> one who has mistaken this for a talking heads song.
>
> If you're referring to "The Message", you're still wrong. Actually
> listening to the songs you're talking about might prove useful.
>
It was "It's Nasty".  Now play nice.

sh


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: The Talking Tom club
Date: 21 Mar 2002 14:48:27 EST


--part1_89.154f4137.29cb930b_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Well Mike, technically it is a Tom Tom Club song, but I could see it being
mistakenly considered a T-Heads song, because it is included on the T-Heads
Stop Making Sense soundtrack.

Dale.

In a message dated 3/21/2002 2:31:41 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:


> ok - the tom tom club song is called "genuis of love" and it's clearly what
> grand master used as a sample or whatever. no NOT the talking heads, though
>
> if you do a search on "genius of love" on morpheus it comes up as a talking
>
> heads song as well as the tom tom club. wierd huh? guess i am not the only
> one who has mistaken this for a talking heads song.
>


--part1_89.154f4137.29cb930b_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  COLOR="#0000a0" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SCRIPT" FACE="Comic Sans MS" LANG="0"><B>Well Mike, technically it is a Tom Tom Club song, but I could see it being mistakenly considered a T-Heads song, because it is included on the T-Heads Stop Making Sense soundtrack.<BR>
<BR>
Dale.<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 3/21/2002 2:31:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, [e-mail] writes:<BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></B><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">ok - the tom tom club song is called "genuis of love" and it's clearly what <BR>
grand master used as a sample or whatever. no NOT the talking heads, though <BR>
if you do a search on "genius of love" on morpheus it comes up as a talking <BR>
heads song as well as the tom tom club. wierd huh? guess i am not the only <BR>
one who has mistaken this for a talking heads song.<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0000a0" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SCRIPT" FACE="Comic Sans MS" LANG="0"><B><BR>
</B></FONT></HTML>
--part1_89.154f4137.29cb930b_boundary--

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: How Come?
Date: 21 Mar 2002 14:38:45 -0600

On Thu, Mar 21, 2002 at 11:33:09AM -0800, john schuller wrote:

> Actually I am part of a group. Everyone is. But I truly think that in the
> age of "Political Correctness" that we really need to stop exploiting or
> segregating people further based upon their ethnicity/ gender.

*sigh* It's continually dismaying that people, at this late date,
continue to complain about others' "Political Correctness" to deflect
people's attention from their own prejudices, insensitivities, and
misunderstandings.

Who do you imagine is being "segregated" here?  Aggregated, perhaps,
though I don't see how you could complain about that.

> (I now take
> back the religion part...it just occured to me since a life style choice -
> not something you are born as)

Again, not exactly true. The huge majority of people never change
religion from the one that they were born into.

To avoid hitting the Godwin Point of bringing up the Nazis
immediately, do you imagine that the conflicts in the Balkan, Ireland,
etc, are due to "lifestyle choices"?

(One usually sees that phrase used to denigrate gay identity. It is
disappointing to see it further misused here.)

> It really doen not matter to me if the person
> I am listening to is whatever.

So why dost thou protest so much? Does it bother you that the person
chooses to identify him/herself as a member of a group?

> But to set it aside as something seperate of
> music - "hey, here is some music made by a woman! Buy it because of that!" I
> think it is wrong. I think in this day and age you should be able to make
> music, sell music whatever based upon the music.

And, indeed, you are. The situation that you are imagining is one in
which you might be *forced* in some unsaid way to buy music based on
some aspect of a musician's identity. Can you point to any situation
whatsoever in which this is the case? Can you point to any situation
in which a musician was forced in any way to identify him/herself in
such a way?

Why does it bother you that some musicians choose to identify
themselves as members of groups? What is conceivably lost to anyone by
their making that choice?

> Otherwise it is just as sad
> as "Buy this Jennifer Lopez album! She is HOT!". A bunch of Minstrel show
> shit.

The jaw simply drops at such a characterization.

> > > And I will go ahead and go on the record about the Japanese series---It
> >is
> > > cool with me. Just because it gives a specific location of the planet.
> >
> >So why the prejudice in favor of location-based organization? Is that in
> >any sense more interesting or worthwhile than music by members of a
> >culture who happen to be geographically dispersed? If so, why?
>
> Location is just location.

And therefore what?

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
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| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: more on the tom tom club
Date: 21 Mar 2002 14:40:42 -0600

On Thu, Mar 21, 2002 at 11:37:43AM -0800, skip Heller wrote:

> > If you're referring to "The Message", you're still wrong. Actually
> > listening to the songs you're talking about might prove useful.
> >
> It was "It's Nasty".  Now play nice.

Well, in the next paragraph, he continued the thought with a reference
to "Check Yourself" (sp?), which is based on "The Message", so either
he was talking about that or he was writing unclearly.

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Whit Schonbein <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Pierre Henry
Date: 21 Mar 2002 13:58:56 -0600 (CST)


A local record store here in St. Louis, Missouri, has the ruins filed
under 'Misc. Classical, R.'.  Normally, I would assume that some
non-employee stashed it there to keep someone else from buying it, but
knowing this place, you never can tell.  Other observations from the same
store: Kevin Drumm goes in Jazz, but Taku Sugimoto & Kevin Drumm duo goes
under pop/rock.  Aube goes under dance/electronica, along with pierre
henry, but morton subotnick goes under 'Misc. Classical S'., and merzbow
goes under pop/rock. The fake soundtrack to 'soul ecstacy' (a non-existent
movie) by dj me, dj you goes under, what else, 'soundtracks'. Otomo
yoshihide duo with christain marclay goes under electronica/dance, while
otmo's new jazz quintet goes under 'jazz', and Cathode goes under 'Misc.
Classical Y'.  Bernard Gunter goes under both 'pop/rock' and
'Misc. new age G'.  Vandermark 5 oscillates between jazz and pop/rock,
depending on who stocks it. Unknown Tzadik titles often get put in the
john zorn section (but not masada - someone makes a new card for that).
it's quite random.  I often wonder what i might find in the country
section, but by that time i'm too tired from looking through everything
else.

whit



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Matt S" <[e-mail]>
Subject: anthology film archives
Date: 21 Mar 2002 15:03:34 -0500


A few year back, Zorn and friends played a benefit at and for Anthology Film
Archives (http://www.anthologyfilmarchives.org/).

I think they played two sets, one each before and after a film...

does anyone have more details about this fundraising performance?
who played with zorn (I think it was masada or one of the expanded
permutations) ? what movie was shown?

Relatedly, does anyone maintain a "jamband-like" list of tourdates and
setlists?



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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Kurt Gottschalk" <[e-mail]>
Subject: grandtomtomchic(no onion content)
Date: 21 Mar 2002 20:10:29 +0000

"the message" came out WAY before genius of love, and both cop a riff from a
song by chic.

>>>
ok - the tom tom club song is called "genuis of love" and it's clearly what
grand master used as a sample or whatever. no NOT the talking heads, though
if you do a search on "genius of love" on morpheus it comes up as a talking
heads song as well as the tom tom club. wierd huh? guess i am not the only
one who has mistaken this for a talking heads song.


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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Sean Westergaard" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: grandtomtomchic(no onion content)
Date: 21 Mar 2002 15:02:48 -0500

the Chic song is "Good Times"

sean



>"the message" came out WAY before genius of love, and both cop a riff from
a
>song by chic.

>>>
ok - the tom tom club song is called "genuis of love" and it's clearly what
grand master used as a sample or whatever. no NOT the talking heads, though
if you do a search on "genius of love" on morpheus it comes up as a talking
heads song as well as the tom tom club. wierd huh? guess i am not the only
one who has mistaken this for a talking heads song.


_
-



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: last time - let's let it go
Date: 21 Mar 2002 15:17:23 EST

yes i am an idiot for accidentally referring to "the message" insted of "it's
nasty" and confusing the tom tom club with the talking heads in one fail
swoop.

the simple fact remains that nobody was nice enough to actually comment on
the original inquiry, but rather crucify me for writing unclearly. even after
i apologized.

lastly yes ice cube's remix is based on "the message" had i chosen my words
better things might not have gotten so ugly. occasionally my brain moves
faster than my typing skills or in this case i think it was reversed.

thanks to the few who actually pointed out the tom tom club/talking heads
connection.

slandered - mike

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: grandtomtomchic(no onion content)
Date: 21 Mar 2002 15:19:17 EST

THANK YOU!!!!!! an answer! bravo!!!!!! thank you thank you thank you.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: grandmastertomtommalrightallready
Date: 21 Mar 2002 15:40:40 EST

ok - i was just looking at my liner notes on grand master flash and they list
"it's nasty" as being "it's nasty (genius of love)" and basically say it's a
tom tom club cover. though the vocals are entirely different. sorry i didn't
do my research first.

-mike

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "john schuller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: How Come?
Date: 21 Mar 2002 12:45:54 -0800


>
>*sigh* It's continually dismaying that people, at this late date,
>continue to complain about others' "Political Correctness" to deflect
>people's attention from their own prejudices, insensitivities, and
>misunderstandings.

I am not complaining about others political correctness. I think it is only
right to look past things such as Gender/Race. I think this is important in
all walks of life. Whether it is hiring for a job, who you fall in love
with, who you hang out with, civil rights - whatever. Please tell me where I
am being insensitive? The only areas I see for use of prejudice is in
whether that person is qualified for whatever. Of course if the person is
someone you could not love (incompatible, they are an idiot etc.) you will
show prejudice against that and therefore not choose them. Would you agree
that it is important to look past things you are born as?

>
>Who do you imagine is being "segregated" here?  Aggregated, perhaps,
>though I don't see how you could complain about that.

I think that further division is wrong. Whether Segregated, aggregated,
whatever. Wouldn't you?


>
> > (I now take
> > back the religion part...it just occured to me since a life style choice
>-
> > not something you are born as)
>
>Again, not exactly true. The huge majority of people never change
>religion from the one that they were born into.

The word "change" is the crucial one. Are you born knowing Jesus? As long as
you know how to make a decision you can change your mind about something
like a religion. Of course I know there are circumstances where you cannot
"announce" that you do not believe a certain way, but that does not make a
final end all decision in one's mind does it?
>
>To avoid hitting the Godwin Point of bringing up the Nazis
>immediately, do you imagine that the conflicts in the Balkan, Ireland,
>etc, are due to "lifestyle choices"?
>
>(One usually sees that phrase used to denigrate gay identity. It is
>disappointing to see it further misused here.)

How is using "lifestyle choice" misused when talking about a religion?

I do not believe that Sexual Preference is a lifestyle choice. If it is,
where is the instruction manual?


>
> > It really doen not matter to me if the person
> > I am listening to is whatever.
>
>So why dost thou protest so much? Does it bother you that the person
>chooses to identify him/herself as a member of a group?

No, I think if someone wants to identify with a certain group they should.
But I also think there is something weird/wrong about Malt Liquor
advertising targeted towards African-Americans.

>And, indeed, you are. The situation that you are imagining is one in
>which you might be *forced* in some unsaid way to buy music based on
>some aspect of a musician's identity. Can you point to any situation
>whatsoever in which this is the case? Can you point to any situation
>in which a musician was forced in any way to identify him/herself in
>such a way?

Of course not. I don't believe that I am ever forced to buy music. I choose
to buy music. Do you think that one should buy music because it is made by a
woman? Or a man? Or because it is good music?
>
>Why does it bother you that some musicians choose to identify
>themselves as members of groups? What is conceivably lost to anyone by
>their making that choice?

Well, if further separation by races or gender is something that someone
wants- nothing. Otherwise, I say lets all be cool and hang at each others
parties.
>
> > Otherwise it is just as sad
> > as "Buy this Jennifer Lopez album! She is HOT!". A bunch of Minstrel
>show
> > shit.
>
>The jaw simply drops at such a characterization.

Why? To me a beauty show is just as repulsive and sick. I am born this way
so let me entertain the masses, because this is my option right now. It is
all sick.

>
> > > > And I will go ahead and go on the record about the Japanese
>series---It
> > >is
> > > > cool with me. Just because it gives a specific location of the
>planet.
> > >
> > >So why the prejudice in favor of location-based organization? Is that
>in
> > >any sense more interesting or worthwhile than music by members of a
> > >culture who happen to be geographically dispersed? If so, why?
> >
> > Location is just location.
>
>And therefore what?
>

And therefore a location on the planet. Nothing more, nothing less...



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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Thierry Raguin <[e-mail]>
Subject: Music Categories [was: Re: Fwd: Pierre Henry]
Date: 21 Mar 2002 21:29:50 +0100

EfrΘn del Valle wrote:

>Not so long ago, Marc Ribot's "Shoe String
>Symphonettes" was filed in FNAC under Latin
>Music!??!!!
>
>Greetings,
>
>EfrΘn del Valle
>
Did you ever see something at the correct place in FNAC??? ;-) And
classification changes according to the FNAC you're going to (or it can
even change almost each month like it is the case in the FNAC of my home
town...)
At the Virgin in Paris, Magma is under "VariΘtΘs Franτaises"!!

BTW where would you classify Zorn's music (e.g. Naked City, Masada,
etc.) if not to a Zorn specific section? I always wonder when people ask
me what kind of music I listen to... For Naked City, I would describe it
as a mix between jazz, death metal and country (and then people think
I'm crazy!).

- TR



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: duncan youngerman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: How come?(Radical Jewish Kultur)
Date: 21 Mar 2002 22:02:46 +0100

(...Hi Joseph!)
The atomisation of humanity into little closed ethnic or religious
clubs, besides being the surest way to rapid destruction of the species,
has never been very interesting artistically either.
2 cases among many:
Germanic music was at it's best (Bach through Romanticism) when it
did'nt think of itself as historically superior, or even germanic in the
first place(Mozart wrote  operas in french and italian, Beethoven loved
the French Revolution and Hinduist philosophy, etc.)!. When it did think
itself as this falsly homogeneous, distinct and superior culture
(post-Wagnerianism to the present, by way of the Third Reich) it stopped
to produce things of much interest.
Bela Bartok would have hated the label "Radical Hungarian" label and
studied musics from all around central and eastern Europe (not to
mention Turkey or North Africa) with equal interest and complete lack of
nationalistic or ethnic vanity (his mother was Serbian and German, in
fact).

I also happen to find the Radical Jewish Culture series in dreadful
taste in relation to the daily bulldozing and shooting in the occupied
territories of Palestine.

As for the remarketing of Serge Gainsbourg or Burt Bacharach under this
umbrella, it's a clever, eye-catching provocation but as unconnected to
reality as the  linking by some of Iran to North Korea.

Jaco Pastorius: Radical Italian culture.
Edgar Allen Poe: Radical Protestant culture.
Mao Tse Toung: Radical Confucian culture.

D.



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Music Categories [was: Re: Fwd: Pierre Henry]
Date: 21 Mar 2002 13:06:30 -0800


On Thu, 21 Mar 2002 21:29:50 +0100  Thierry Raguin wrote:
>
> classification changes according to the FNAC you're going to (or it can
> even change almost each month like it is the case in the FNAC of my home
> town...)
> At the Virgin in Paris, Magma is under "VariΘtΘs Franτaises"!!

Hey ! Stella Vander was a popular singer in the 60's :-).

    Patrice.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Thierry Raguin <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Music Categories [was: Re: Fwd: Pierre Henry]
Date: 21 Mar 2002 22:13:23 +0100

Patrice L. Roussel wrote:

>On Thu, 21 Mar 2002 21:29:50 +0100  Thierry Raguin wrote:
>
>>classification changes according to the FNAC you're going to (or it can
>>even change almost each month like it is the case in the FNAC of my home
>>town...)
>>At the Virgin in Paris, Magma is under "VariΘtΘs Franτaises"!!
>>
>
>Hey ! Stella Vander was a popular singer in the 60's :-).
>
>    Patrice.
>
Right! And Jannick Top played for Johnny Halliday!!! Shame on him :-)

- TR


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Mark Saleski <[e-mail]>
Subject: sound-alikes
Date: 21 Mar 2002 16:14:58 -0500


like the grandmaster flash/tomtomclub thing, i've always wondered about
the tune "Mickey's Monkey" by Mother's Finest.

the music on the tune appears to be an exact copy of Led Zep's "Custard
Pie". (words are different tho..)

Mother's Finest - Another Mother Further (1977)
Led Zeppelin - Physical Graffiti (1975)

this is a case of obscure (at least to me...i only know of Mother's
Finest because a friend of mine bought it used somewhere) vs. not so
obscure....

i remember trying to find any mention of zeppelin in the liner notes
...nothing there.

--
Mark Saleski - [e-mail] | http://www.foliage.com/~marks
"Music is spiritual. The music business is not." - Van Morrison



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Sean Westergaard" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: sound-alikes
Date: 21 Mar 2002 16:03:40 -0500




like the grandmaster flash/tomtomclub thing, i've always wondered about
the tune "Mickey's Monkey" by Mother's Finest.

the music on the tune appears to be an exact copy of Led Zep's "Custard
Pie". (words are different tho..)

>Mother's Finest - Another Mother Further (1977)
>Led Zeppelin - Physical Graffiti (1975)

>this is a case of obscure (at least to me...i only know of Mother's
>Finest because a friend of mine bought it used somewhere) vs. not so
>obscure....

>i remember trying to find any mention of zeppelin in the liner notes
>...nothing there.


i think that one (if actually a rip-off) falls under "turnabout is fair
play" since Led Zep took songwriting credits on several Willie Dixon tunes

sean


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Mark Saleski <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: sound-alikes
Date: 21 Mar 2002 16:21:32 -0500


oh ya, i've never been pissed off at Mother's Finest or anything...just
always wondered exactly what the deal was with that particular tune.


Zeppelin definitely did some of their own, uh, borrowing...


Sean Westergaard wrote:

>
>
>
>i think that one (if actually a rip-off) falls under "turnabout is fair
>play" since Led Zep took songwriting credits on several Willie Dixon tunes
>
>sean
>

--
Mark Saleski - [e-mail] | http://www.foliage.com/~marks
"Music is spiritual. The music business is not." - Van Morrison




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Chris Selvig <[e-mail]>
Subject: Record Store (mis)filing systems (was Pierre Henry)
Date: 21 Mar 2002 13:34:40 -0800

Now that I've started this thread, I should confess to some deliberate
misfiling in my record-store days.  When I worked for The Candyman in Santa
Fe, NM, I had carte blanche to expand the Pop section, but had I even
suggested an "Experimental" section, I would have been the target of much
yelling, pounding on desks, etc from the rather irascible owner.  So our
Pop section had such hummable folks as Hijokaidan, Merzbow, Nurse With
Wound, A Handful of Dust, amidst the Led Zeppelin and Doors and
Madonna.  On the other hand, there are stores which take genre
hairsplitting to such an extreme that one has to look in four or five
sections just to make sure they haven't missed, say, Fushitsusha.  The
worst offender is the Rasputin's chain in the Bay Area, which has separate
sections for Rock, Indie Rock, Punk Rock, Oldies, Prog Rock (that's where
they keep Fushitsusha)... quite maddening.  Amoeba is almost as bad, but it
is still a great record store.
   My own collection is just filed alpha by artist/composer/group name,
though I would never do that with a store.

Chris Selvig


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Kurt Gottschalk" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE:HOWCOME?
Date: 21 Mar 2002 21:33:24 +0000

>
>Who do you imagine is being "segregated" here?  Aggregated, perhaps,
>though I don't see how you could complain about that.

I think that further division is wrong. Whether Segregated, aggregated,
whatever. Wouldn't you?
>>>

what's crucial in defending tzadik's catagorization is, as has been pointed
out here before, the divisions aren't ghettos. there are women, asians and
jews all in the composer series, for example.

tzadik is pretty damn savy at marketing, and if people interested in hearing
women in new music, for example, hear about something called "the oracle
series", they might well be more likely to investigate than if they were
just told "oh, there's this label in new york." and then maybe they'll move
on to the ruins or alvin lucier or danny cohen. don't bother me none.

but whilst pigeonholing, this has come up before, but any new thoughts on
what defines the key series? zorn apparently won't say why it is what it is.
seems like it's works that are sort of building blocks to different realms
of music, like a starter series in a way, but there aren't really enough out
yet to test the theory.

kurt

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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Perfect Sound Forever <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: hip Hop
Date: 21 Mar 2002 16:52:07 -0500

Skip Heller said:

> The dub connection was, at least in the early period, tenuous at best.
>

Well, to some extent but check out David Toop's "Rap Attack" for a counter-argument.  Besides' Flash's own Caribbean connection, note that a lot of Jamaican hits in the '70's were made from another popular reggae song
being played in the background that a new singer (toaster) would free-associate over- basically, the same thing that rappers were all doing in the beginning (and now).

Best,
Jason
--
Perfect Sound Forever
online music magazine
[e-mail]
http://www.furious.com/perfect



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: William Crump <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Record Store (mis)filing systems (was Pierre Henry)
Date: 21 Mar 2002 16:20:58 -0600

Amoeba's categorizations seem a little more thought out to me, whereas
Rasputin's sound like some A&R guy made them up. I like that Amoeba
takes the time to distinguish between in their SF Japanese section
between J-Pop and Japanese noise (Boredoms, Ruins). Wouldn't want to get
those mixed up.

Speaking of the Bay Area, a pal in Nottingham England of all places
turned me on to the Aquarius Records mailing list and website. Judging
from their biweekly "New Arrivals" e-newsletter, the folks there spend
an incredible amount of time listening carefully and writing
decently-thought-out reviews for the education of their customers, a
true public service. Their selection looks almost as eclectic as
Amoeba's and best of all, they do mail order, which Amoeba doesn't. I've
already started ordering from them since moving back to Missippistan
from Californabad.  They're at www.aquariusrecords.org, and highly
recommended.

William Crump

Chris Selvig wrote:

>   The worst offender is the Rasputin's chain in the Bay Area, which
> has separate sections for Rock, Indie Rock, Punk Rock, Oldies, Prog
> Rock (that's where they keep Fushitsusha)... quite maddening.  Amoeba
> is almost as bad, but it is still a great record store.




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Record Store (mis)filing systems (was Pierre Henry)
Date: 21 Mar 2002 14:26:16 -0800


On Thu, 21 Mar 2002 16:20:58 -0600  William Crump wrote:
>
> Amoeba's categorizations seem a little more thought out to me, whereas
> Rasputin's sound like some A&R guy made them up. I like that Amoeba
> takes the time to distinguish between in their SF Japanese section
> between J-Pop and Japanese noise (Boredoms, Ruins). Wouldn't want to get
> those mixed up.

One (in)famous record store in Paris (Puces, Clignancourt, if I remember well)
used to put records in alphabetical order... by first name first! One of the
few advantages of this system was that if you were looking for MUSIQUE
CONCRETE you could go right away to the "Pierre" section :-).

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: How Come?
Date: 21 Mar 2002 17:46:51 -0600

On Thu, Mar 21, 2002 at 12:45:54PM -0800, john schuller wrote:

> I am not complaining about others political correctness.

Well, yes, you were.

> I think it is only
> right to look past things such as Gender/Race.

Stated in the abstract, perhaps, which shows a bug in the
generalization.

> I think this is important in
> all walks of life. Whether it is hiring for a job, who you fall in love
> with, who you hang out with, civil rights - whatever.

The examples you choose are revealing. In each of these cases, it
could be argued that you've chosen situations where somebody might
rule someone out of a position/situation because of that other
person's group identity.

But what could be wrong with someone choosing to opt in to a group of
people of similar backgrounds, influences, and experiences?

> Please tell me where I
> am being insensitive?

See above.

> The only areas I see for use of prejudice is in
> whether that person is qualified for whatever.

Yet you insist that location is a valid parameter for prejudice. Why?

> Of course if the person is
> someone you could not love (incompatible, they are an idiot etc.) you will
> show prejudice against that and therefore not choose them. Would you agree
> that it is important to look past things you are born as?

Would you agree that it helps to consider common backgrounds,
influences, and experiences?

> >Who do you imagine is being "segregated" here?  Aggregated, perhaps,
> >though I don't see how you could complain about that.
>
> I think that further division is wrong. Whether Segregated, aggregated,
> whatever. Wouldn't you?

See above.

> >Again, not exactly true. The huge majority of people never change
> >religion from the one that they were born into.
>
> The word "change" is the crucial one. Are you born knowing Jesus? As long as
> you know how to make a decision you can change your mind about something
> like a religion. Of course I know there are circumstances where you cannot
> "announce" that you do not believe a certain way, but that does not make a
> final end all decision in one's mind does it?

Er, what? (I find your quick reference to being "born knowing Jesus"
revealing. As a strongly-identified Jew, I probably would not have
made that reference.)

> >To avoid hitting the Godwin Point of bringing up the Nazis
> >immediately, do you imagine that the conflicts in the Balkan, Ireland,
> >etc, are due to "lifestyle choices"?
> >
> >(One usually sees that phrase used to denigrate gay identity. It is
> >disappointing to see it further misused here.)
>
> How is using "lifestyle choice" misused when talking about a religion?

How is it appropriate?

> I do not believe that Sexual Preference is a lifestyle choice. If it is,
> where is the instruction manual?

And yet you believe that it is so for religion? That belief would
show, at best, a shallow understanding of what religion is and means
for its adherents.

> > > It really doen not matter to me if the person
> > > I am listening to is whatever.
> >
> >So why dost thou protest so much? Does it bother you that the person
> >chooses to identify him/herself as a member of a group?
>
> No, I think if someone wants to identify with a certain group they should.
> But I also think there is something weird/wrong about Malt Liquor
> advertising targeted towards African-Americans.

Well, I find something wrong with most advertising.

> >And, indeed, you are. The situation that you are imagining is one in
> >which you might be *forced* in some unsaid way to buy music based on
> >some aspect of a musician's identity. Can you point to any situation
> >whatsoever in which this is the case? Can you point to any situation
> >in which a musician was forced in any way to identify him/herself in
> >such a way?
>
> Of course not. I don't believe that I am ever forced to buy music. I choose
> to buy music. Do you think that one should buy music because it is made by a
> woman? Or a man? Or because it is good music?

The problem is your use of "should". I enjoy being able to find music
that comes from people of similar backgrounds, influences, and
experience, and find that I tend to enjoy that music. Why does this
bother you?

> >Why does it bother you that some musicians choose to identify
> >themselves as members of groups? What is conceivably lost to anyone by
> >their making that choice?
>
> Well, if further separation by races or gender is something that someone
> wants- nothing. Otherwise, I say lets all be cool and hang at each others
> parties.

And, of course, nothing prevents a man from buying "women's music", or
a Christian from buying anything on the Radical Jewish Culture series.

> > > Otherwise it is just as sad
> > > as "Buy this Jennifer Lopez album! She is HOT!". A bunch of Minstrel
> >show
> > > shit.
> >
> >The jaw simply drops at such a characterization.
>
> Why? To me a beauty show is just as repulsive and sick.

You find the existence of Jewish music repulsive and sick?

> I am born this way
> so let me entertain the masses, because this is my option right now. It is
> all sick.

But I am in no sense obligated to buy music presented in this way, any
more than you are obligated to buy Jewish music.

> > > > > And I will go ahead and go on the record about the Japanese
> >series---It
> > > >is
> > > > > cool with me. Just because it gives a specific location of the
> >planet.
> > > >
> > > >So why the prejudice in favor of location-based organization? Is that
> >in
> > > >any sense more interesting or worthwhile than music by members of a
> > > >culture who happen to be geographically dispersed? If so, why?
> > >
> > > Location is just location.
> >
> >And therefore what?
> >
>
> And therefore a location on the planet. Nothing more, nothing less...

And how does this differ from the aggregations of music that you think
are bad?

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
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| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Pierre Henry
Date: 21 Mar 2002 17:53:54 -0600

On Thu, Mar 21, 2002 at 01:58:56PM -0600, Whit Schonbein wrote:
>
> A local record store here in St. Louis, Missouri, has the ruins filed
> under 'Misc. Classical, R.'.  Normally, I would assume that some
> non-employee stashed it there to keep someone else from buying it, but
> knowing this place, you never can tell.  Other observations from the same
> store: Kevin Drumm goes in Jazz, but Taku Sugimoto & Kevin Drumm duo goes
> under pop/rock.  Aube goes under dance/electronica, along with pierre
> henry, but morton subotnick goes under 'Misc. Classical S'., and merzbow
> goes under pop/rock. The fake soundtrack to 'soul ecstacy' (a non-existent
> movie) by dj me, dj you goes under, what else, 'soundtracks'. Otomo
> yoshihide duo with christain marclay goes under electronica/dance, while
> otmo's new jazz quintet goes under 'jazz', and Cathode goes under 'Misc.
> Classical Y'.  Bernard Gunter goes under both 'pop/rock' and
> 'Misc. new age G'.  Vandermark 5 oscillates between jazz and pop/rock,
> depending on who stocks it. Unknown Tzadik titles often get put in the
> john zorn section (but not masada - someone makes a new card for that).
> it's quite random.  I often wonder what i might find in the country
> section, but by that time i'm too tired from looking through everything
> else.

Sounds like several people, with varying amount of knowledge, are
shelving the discs, with "pop/rock" serving as the default.

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: grandtomtomchic(no onion content)
Date: 21 Mar 2002 17:56:15 -0600

On Thu, Mar 21, 2002 at 08:10:29PM +0000, Kurt Gottschalk wrote:

> "the message" came out WAY before genius of love, and both cop a riff from a
> song by chic.

Uh, OK, this is getting weird. What Chic song might this be?

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: grandtomtomchic(no onion content)
Date: 21 Mar 2002 18:00:16 -0600

On Thu, Mar 21, 2002 at 05:56:15PM -0600, Joseph Zitt wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 21, 2002 at 08:10:29PM +0000, Kurt Gottschalk wrote:
>
> > "the message" came out WAY before genius of love, and both cop a riff from a
> > song by chic.
>
> Uh, OK, this is getting weird. What Chic song might this be?

Waitaminnit, my brain was still set on "White Lines". Never mind.

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: How come?(Radical Jewish Kultur)
Date: 21 Mar 2002 18:15:01 -0600

On Thu, Mar 21, 2002 at 10:02:46PM +0100, duncan youngerman wrote:

> Germanic music was at it's best (Bach through Romanticism) when it
> did'nt think of itself as historically superior, or even germanic in the
> first place(Mozart wrote  operas in french and italian, Beethoven loved
> the French Revolution and Hinduist philosophy, etc.)!. When it did think
> itself as this falsly homogeneous, distinct and superior culture
> (post-Wagnerianism to the present, by way of the Third Reich) it stopped
> to produce things of much interest.

The difference here is that Radical Jewish Culture in no way presents
itself as "superior" to other music. And the artists in the series
continue to work within other contexts.

> Bela Bartok would have hated the label "Radical Hungarian" label and
> studied musics from all around central and eastern Europe (not to
> mention Turkey or North Africa) with equal interest and complete lack of
> nationalistic or ethnic vanity (his mother was Serbian and German, in
> fact).

And I don't think anyone would argue with his choices there.

> I also happen to find the Radical Jewish Culture series in dreadful
> taste in relation to the daily bulldozing and shooting in the occupied
> territories of Palestine.

That evinces either a confusion of Judaism as a whole with the specific
implementation of Zionism regrettably in prectice there, or simple
anti-Jewish prejudice. Which is it?

> As for the remarketing of Serge Gainsbourg or Burt Bacharach under this
> umbrella, it's a clever, eye-catching provocation but as unconnected to
> reality as the  linking by some of Iran to North Korea.

I raised my eyebrow at those choices too, and didn't get them. But I
don't begrudge Zorn his ability to choose to package and release these
recordings in this way, and am intrigued by the way that these
releases raised the issue of what Jewish Culture actually is.

> Jaco Pastorius: Radical Italian culture.
> Edgar Allen Poe: Radical Protestant culture.
> Mao Tse Toung: Radical Confucian culture.

And you would, indeed, be as free to release them as such as Tzadik is
to release the Radical Jewish Culture series. Congratulations.

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: grandtomtomchic(no onion content)
Date: 21 Mar 2002 15:31:31 -0800

on 3/21/02 3:56 PM, Joseph Zitt at [e-mail] wrote:

> On Thu, Mar 21, 2002 at 08:10:29PM +0000, Kurt Gottschalk wrote:
>
>> "the message" came out WAY before genius of love, and both cop a riff from a
>> song by chic.
>
> Uh, OK, this is getting weird. What Chic song might this be?

"Good Times", wasn't it? That was an early staple for MCs back in the day.
It was the backing track for "Rapper's Delight" and several other things
(whose names slip my memory).

skip h


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "john schuller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: How Come?
Date: 21 Mar 2002 15:35:26 -0800

What the hell are you talking about?


> > I am not complaining about others political correctness.
>
>Well, yes, you were.

where? Please show me. Tell me how I did it.
>
> > I think it is only
> > right to look past things such as Gender/Race.
>
>Stated in the abstract, perhaps, which shows a bug in the
>generalization.

What? Wow. How deep and methodical you are. Yes, I take it back. Let's start
treating people differently. Since Women are "so" inferior to men why not
just keep it that way right? I don't think so. I don't think that we have to
get all "Mr. Literature Professor" style either...
>
> > I think this is important in
> > all walks of life. Whether it is hiring for a job, who you fall in love
> > with, who you hang out with, civil rights - whatever.
>
>The examples you choose are revealing. In each of these cases, it
>could be argued that you've chosen situations where somebody might
>rule someone out of a position/situation because of that other
>person's group identity.
>
>But what could be wrong with someone choosing to opt in to a group of
>people of similar backgrounds, influences, and experiences?

Reveal What? Answer this or I will not reply to anymore of your questions. I
am serious. Reveal what?

No. As I have said before opt in with whatever group you want.
>

>
> > The only areas I see for use of prejudice is in
> > whether that person is qualified for whatever.
>
>Yet you insist that location is a valid parameter for prejudice. Why?

Location is the answer.
>

> > final end all decision in one's mind does it?
>
>Er, what? (I find your quick reference to being "born knowing Jesus"
>revealing. As a strongly-identified Jew, I probably would not have
>made that reference.)

Reveal what again? Answer please.
>> > How is using "lifestyle choice" misused when talking about a religion?
>
>How is it appropriate?

Because there are things in the world that you make a choice to do and
things you don't. Religion is a choice. Simple as that. Is it not? I can
choose to be buddhist, mormon, christian, or have no religion. Therefore it
is a lifestyle choice.


>
> > I do not believe that Sexual Preference is a lifestyle choice. If it is,
> > where is the instruction manual?
>
>And yet you believe that it is so for religion? That belief would
>show, at best, a shallow understanding of what religion is and means
>for its adherents.

Sorry. It is.

> >
> > Why? To me a beauty show is just as repulsive and sick.
>
>You find the existence of Jewish music repulsive and sick?

Oh yes. Sure. It smells bad too. Really stinky. Yeah, I am in favor of
everyone being treated equally in all aspects of life except Jewish Music.
Why do you even say that?

>>And therefore a location on the planet. Nothing more, nothing less...
>
>And how does this differ from the aggregations of music that you think
>are bad?
>

Because it is location. And I know this answer bothers you.

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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "john schuller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: How come?(Radical Jewish Kultur)
Date: 21 Mar 2002 15:37:21 -0800

Mr. Zitt - Who has hurt you so bad to be so angry?

_________________________________________________________________
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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: How come?(Radical Jewish Kultur)
Date: 21 Mar 2002 15:53:20 -0800


On Thu, 21 Mar 2002 15:37:21 -0800  "john schuller" wrote:
>
> Mr. Zitt - Who has hurt you so bad to be so angry?

I don't think he is. Joseph is quite consistent when arguing. I know, by
experience, that if I say that the sky is blue, he will try to prove me
that this is a biased statement exhibiting my lack of perspective. If
I insist, he will add that since the sun does not produce a pure spectral
line, my statement is unfounded. If I keep on insisting, he will wonder
from what part of the universe I am coming from. Usually we get both
tired and the argument dies based on mutual implicit consensus.

    Patrice.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: How Come?
Date: 21 Mar 2002 19:12:00 -0600

On Thu, Mar 21, 2002 at 03:35:26PM -0800, john schuller wrote:
> What the hell are you talking about?

See below.

> > > I am not complaining about others political correctness.
> >
> >Well, yes, you were.
>
> where? Please show me. Tell me how I did it.

"But I truly think that in the age of "Political Correctness" that we
really need to stop exploiting or segregating people further based
upon their ethnicity/ gender."

> > > I think it is only
> > > right to look past things such as Gender/Race.
> >
> >Stated in the abstract, perhaps, which shows a bug in the
> >generalization.
>
> What? Wow. How deep and methodical you are. Yes, I take it back. Let's start
> treating people differently. Since Women are "so" inferior to men why not
> just keep it that way right? I don't think so. I don't think that we have to
> get all "Mr. Literature Professor" style either...

Is that supposed to be intelligible? What *are* you talking about?

> > > I think this is important in
> > > all walks of life. Whether it is hiring for a job, who you fall in love
> > > with, who you hang out with, civil rights - whatever.
> >
> >The examples you choose are revealing. In each of these cases, it
> >could be argued that you've chosen situations where somebody might
> >rule someone out of a position/situation because of that other
> >person's group identity.
> >
> >But what could be wrong with someone choosing to opt in to a group of
> >people of similar backgrounds, influences, and experiences?
>
> Reveal What? Answer this or I will not reply to anymore of your questions. I
> am serious. Reveal what?

Reveal that, at the least, you have not considered why people might
choose to associate themselves with others of like backsgrounds,
influences, and experiences.

> No. As I have said before opt in with whatever group you want.

This contradicts your dislike for these recording projects.  Care to
reconsider one or the other?

> > > The only areas I see for use of prejudice is in
> > > whether that person is qualified for whatever.
> >
> >Yet you insist that location is a valid parameter for prejudice. Why?
>
> Location is the answer.

Why? I find it intruiguing that you keep ducking this.

> > > final end all decision in one's mind does it?
> >
> >Er, what? (I find your quick reference to being "born knowing Jesus"
> >revealing. As a strongly-identified Jew, I probably would not have
> >made that reference.)
>
> Reveal what again? Answer please.
> >> > How is using "lifestyle choice" misused when talking about a religion?
> >
> >How is it appropriate?
>
> Because there are things in the world that you make a choice to do and
> things you don't. Religion is a choice. Simple as that. Is it not? I can
> choose to be buddhist, mormon, christian, or have no religion. Therefore it
> is a lifestyle choice.

Either this is ridiculously simplistic, or you are using an odd
meaning for "lifestyle". What *are* you talking about?

> > > I do not believe that Sexual Preference is a lifestyle choice. If it is,
> > > where is the instruction manual?
> >
> >And yet you believe that it is so for religion? That belief would
> >show, at best, a shallow understanding of what religion is and means
> >for its adherents.
>
> Sorry. It is.

I take it you cede the point, having found yourself unable to support
your previously stated view?

> > > Why? To me a beauty show is just as repulsive and sick.
> >
> >You find the existence of Jewish music repulsive and sick?
>
> Oh yes. Sure. It smells bad too. Really stinky. Yeah, I am in favor of
> everyone being treated equally in all aspects of life except Jewish Music.
> Why do you even say that?

On the basis of your own comments.

> >>And therefore a location on the planet. Nothing more, nothing less...
> >
> >And how does this differ from the aggregations of music that you think
> >are bad?
> >
>
> Because it is location. And I know this answer bothers you.

If it were an answer, it might. But, as rereading your messages shows,
it is not an answer but a repeated evasion.

What is your answer?

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: How come?(Radical Jewish Kultur)
Date: 21 Mar 2002 19:14:13 -0600

On Thu, Mar 21, 2002 at 03:37:21PM -0800, john schuller wrote:

> Mr. Zitt - Who has hurt you so bad to be so angry?

Into what text are you injecting a perception of anger? Since the anger
does not come from me, its source is worth examination/

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: How come?(Radical Jewish Kultur)
Date: 21 Mar 2002 19:17:25 -0600

On Thu, Mar 21, 2002 at 03:53:20PM -0800, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:

> I don't think he is. Joseph is quite consistent when arguing. I know, by
> experience, that if I say that the sky is blue, he will try to prove me
> that this is a biased statement exhibiting my lack of perspective.

You know you would find life much easier if you just admitted that
John Cage invented the sky :-)

> If
> I insist, he will add that since the sun does not produce a pure spectral
> line, my statement is unfounded.

(Weirdly, here in New Jersey where I grew up and am now (stuck?), the
sky is almost always overcase and off-white. I used to wonder, until I
moved to Texas, why people referred to the sky as "blue".)

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Stockhausen's Light
Date: 21 Mar 2002 19:29:32 EST


In a message dated 03.21.02 12.36.59, [e-mail] writes:

>Honsetly curious here: what do you love about Stockhausen, that you
>find missing in other very similar sounding music that you referred to
>earlier as "bullshit"?

because i honestly believe that some of stockhausen's less 'aesthetically
appealing' pieces were project pieces - a means to an end.  pieces like the
licht cycle and stimmung and kreuzpiel and zyklus make up for it ten or
twenty-fold.

love,
  k8.


---
[.n0thing.is.what.is.sAid.]
k a t e  p e t e r s o n
c o m p o s e r / p e r f o r m e r

http://www.geocities.com/uforbk8/kate.html
http://www.icefoundation.org (roundtable)

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "john schuller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: How come?(Radical Jewish Kultur)
Date: 21 Mar 2002 16:30:45 -0800

Thanks for clearing that up. I was beginning to wonder what planet I was
from.


>From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
>To: "john schuller" <[e-mail]>
>CC: [e-mail], [e-mail],
>[e-mail],   [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: How come?(Radical Jewish Kultur)
>Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 15:53:20 -0800
>
>On Thu, 21 Mar 2002 15:37:21 -0800  "john schuller" wrote:
> >
> > Mr. Zitt - Who has hurt you so bad to be so angry?
>
>I don't think he is. Joseph is quite consistent when arguing. I know, by
>experience, that if I say that the sky is blue, he will try to prove me
>that this is a biased statement exhibiting my lack of perspective. If
>I insist, he will add that since the sun does not produce a pure spectral
>line, my statement is unfounded. If I keep on insisting, he will wonder
>from what part of the universe I am coming from. Usually we get both
>tired and the argument dies based on mutual implicit consensus.
>
>    Patrice.
>


_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Stockhausen's Light
Date: 21 Mar 2002 19:26:24 -0600

On Thu, Mar 21, 2002 at 07:29:32PM -0500, [e-mail] wrote:

> because i honestly believe that some of stockhausen's less 'aesthetically
> appealing' pieces were project pieces - a means to an end.  pieces like the
> licht cycle and stimmung and kreuzpiel and zyklus make up for it ten or
> twenty-fold.

OTOH, couldn't it be said that all of a composer's works are, in some
sense, transitional? Perhaps more than most, Stockhausen has had the
support and opportunity to evolve along varied paths.  (Including,
perhaps most strikingly, the Intuitive Pieces, which were a hard break
from the formula-based (though not formulaic!) work that he continues
through Licht.)

I wonder what Wuorinen could have done in Stockhausen's situation. I
wonder what either of us would do if funded to create and produce a
seven opera cycle...

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ronald Hiznay <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Dr. Octagon
Date: 21 Mar 2002 16:37:53 -0800 (PST)

Ok, Dr Octagon is probably (in many people's opinions)
the best Kool Keith album so far....
Kool Keith's lyrics on this are absolutely rediculous,
at times he sounds like he's reading notes for a first
year college biology exam. you will be pleasantly
rewarded through many listens of this album at the
mastery with which he manipulates these into a rap
style which is both intellectualy stimulating and
funny as all get out...
it's also a DJ Q-bert album so the samples are
incredible. At times this album is insanely stupid
(that's a good point) as it provides well timed comic
relief for the Biology text passages....
It can be occasionally misogynistic, but overall it's
not a theme of the album. If you like this one you
should get Paul Barman's CD


mushmush



In a message dated 03.20.02 15.48.37,
[e-mail] writes:



>Dr. Octagon (Kool Keith)

will someone tell me more about this dr. octagon
album?  i've read
maybe
twenty reviews of this album and everyone seems to
widely respect /
like /
dig / whatever it, but i know nothing about it...

love,
  k8.



__________________________________________________
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http://movies.yahoo.com/

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "john schuller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: How Come?
Date: 21 Mar 2002 16:44:14 -0800


>"But I truly think that in the age of "Political Correctness" that we
>really need to stop exploiting or segregating people further based
>upon their ethnicity/ gender."

OK Mr. Zitt. How does this complain about Political Correctness? Tell me.
How?

>
>Reveal that, at the least, you have not considered why people might
>choose to associate themselves with others of like backsgrounds,
>influences, and experiences.

As I have said, I do not care if people associatte themselves with other
people of like backgrounds, influences and experiences.
>
> > No. As I have said before opt in with whatever group you want.
>
>This contradicts your dislike for these recording projects.  Care to
>reconsider one or the other?

How? I don't dislike the recording projects. I dislike that they are
marketed the way they are.


> > Location is the answer.
>
>Why? I find it intruiguing that you keep ducking this.

Location is just a location. It just has to do with what part of the planet
it comes from. Not a race or gender.

>
>Either this is ridiculously simplistic, or you are using an odd
>meaning for "lifestyle". What *are* you talking about?

I think it is rather simplistic. things such as whether or not you choose to
eat meat, practice religion, abstain from sex, use drugs, have children, get
married are all lifestyle choices. Do you want to eat meat? Yes or no.
Choice. Simple.
>

>
>I take it you cede the point, having found yourself unable to support
>your previously stated view?

No. Religion is a choice. Sexual Preference is not.

>And how does this differ from the aggregations of music that you think
> > >are bad?
> > >
> >
> > Because it is location. And I know this answer bothers you.
>
>If it were an answer, it might. But, as rereading your messages shows,
>it is not an answer but a repeated evasion.
>
>What is your answer?

Location.


_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Mike Chamberlain <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Record Store (mis)filing systems (was Pierre Henry)
Date: 21 Mar 2002 19:48:05 -0500

on 3/21/02 5:26 PM, Patrice L. Roussel at [e-mail] wrote:

>
> One (in)famous record store in Paris (Puces, Clignancourt, if I remember well)
> used to put records in alphabetical order... by first name first! One of the
> few advantages of this system was that if you were looking for MUSIQUE
> CONCRETE you could go right away to the "Pierre" section :-).
>
Well, I've seen Sun Ra under "S" and under "R".  I've had phone books where
I put the numbers in by the person's first name.  You know, "Susie",
"Nancy", "Michelle" .......  :-)

Hey, Mr. Rizzi, I thought that this Parisian snob was being taken off the
list.

--Mike


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "john schuller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: How come?(Radical Jewish Kultur)
Date: 21 Mar 2002 16:49:07 -0800

You just "appear" to be bitter about things. Perhaps it is my own delusional
mind running through a series of distortions based upon nothing but my own
perception and interpretation of how I read your posts.

Now please. Take it easy in life. You "appear" to me (probably my own
delusions again) to have a problem with anything said to you.

Now please, do yourself a favor. Do not waste time dissecting every piece of
deluded grammar in your life.

>From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
>To: john schuller <[e-mail]>
>CC: [e-mail], [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: How come?(Radical Jewish Kultur)
>Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 19:14:13 -0600
>
>On Thu, Mar 21, 2002 at 03:37:21PM -0800, john schuller wrote:
>
> > Mr. Zitt - Who has hurt you so bad to be so angry?
>
>Into what text are you injecting a perception of anger? Since the anger
>does not come from me, its source is worth examination/
>
>--
>| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
>| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
>|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
>| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
>| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |
>


_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: How Come?
Date: 21 Mar 2002 19:41:17 -0600

On Thu, Mar 21, 2002 at 04:44:14PM -0800, john schuller wrote:

> >"But I truly think that in the age of "Political Correctness" that we
> >really need to stop exploiting or segregating people further based
> >upon their ethnicity/ gender."
>
> OK Mr. Zitt. How does this complain about Political Correctness? Tell me.
> How?

In what way are you incapable of seeing this?

> >Reveal that, at the least, you have not considered why people might
> >choose to associate themselves with others of like backsgrounds,
> >influences, and experiences.
>
> As I have said, I do not care if people associatte themselves with other
> people of like backgrounds, influences and experiences.

Yet you complained about projects that do precisely this. How do you
explain your self-contradiction?

> > > No. As I have said before opt in with whatever group you want.
> >
> >This contradicts your dislike for these recording projects.  Care to
> >reconsider one or the other?
>
> How? I don't dislike the recording projects. I dislike that they are
> marketed the way they are.

How are you drawing this distinction?

> > > Location is the answer.
> >
> >Why? I find it intruiguing that you keep ducking this.
>
> Location is just a location. It just has to do with what part of the planet
> it comes from. Not a race or gender.

Yet you find it, and not the others, as a valid parameter for
aggregation. I ask again: why?

> >Either this is ridiculously simplistic, or you are using an odd
> >meaning for "lifestyle". What *are* you talking about?
>
> I think it is rather simplistic. things such as whether or not you choose to
> eat meat, practice religion, abstain from sex, use drugs, have children, get
> married are all lifestyle choices. Do you want to eat meat? Yes or no.
> Choice. Simple.

Thus confirming the earlier suggestion that you are unfamiliar with
more than a trivial concept of religious belief and practice.

> >I take it you cede the point, having found yourself unable to support
> >your previously stated view?
>
> No. Religion is a choice. Sexual Preference is not.

See above.

> >And how does this differ from the aggregations of music that you think
> > > >are bad?
> > > >
> > >
> > > Because it is location. And I know this answer bothers you.
> >
> >If it were an answer, it might. But, as rereading your messages shows,
> >it is not an answer but a repeated evasion.
> >
> >What is your answer?
>
> Location.

And again, not an answer but an evasion.  Which is the banging head,
and which the wall?

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: How come?(Radical Jewish Kultur)
Date: 21 Mar 2002 19:43:59 -0600

On Thu, Mar 21, 2002 at 04:49:07PM -0800, john schuller wrote:

> You just "appear" to be bitter about things. Perhaps it is my own delusional
> mind running through a series of distortions based upon nothing but my own
> perception and interpretation of how I read your posts.

I suggest that that is indeed the case.

> Now please. Take it easy in life. You "appear" to me (probably my own
> delusions again) to have a problem with anything said to you.

See above.

> Now please, do yourself a favor. Do not waste time dissecting every piece of
> deluded grammar in your life.

And from where is this perception injected?

I take it that you finally acknowledge your inability to answer the
questions asked?

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "john schuller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: How Come?
Date: 21 Mar 2002 17:23:29 -0800


>
>On Thu, Mar 21, 2002 at 04:44:14PM -0800, john schuller wrote:
>
> > >"But I truly think that in the age of "Political Correctness" that we
> > >really need to stop exploiting or segregating people further based
> > >upon their ethnicity/ gender."
> >
> > OK Mr. Zitt. How does this complain about Political Correctness? Tell
>me.
> > How?
>
>In what way are you incapable of seeing this?

Explain your view of how that is complaining about Political Correctness and
I will see the way the I am currently incapable of seeing this. Do it. I
dare ya.
>
> > >Reveal that, at the least, you have not considered why people might
> > >choose to associate themselves with others of like backsgrounds,
> > >influences, and experiences.
> >
> > As I have said, I do not care if people associatte themselves with other
> > people of like backgrounds, influences and experiences.
>
>Yet you complained about projects that do precisely this. How do you
>explain your self-contradiction?

Because the marketing of those projects promotes seperation. People hanging
out with others of like backgrounds etc. just promotes people hanging out.
Not "Look at me, I am different because I was born with different
genetalia"...
>

> > How? I don't dislike the recording projects. I dislike that they are
> > marketed the way they are.
>
>How are you drawing this distinction?

Here is our "People with Vagina" series. Etc. Etc.

>
>Yet you find it, and not the others, as a valid parameter for
>aggregation. I ask again: why?

It is valid just because all it is a geographical spot. In different
countries the music can be very different from others. Sort of like how
people with penises make different music than those with vaginas. They
should all be in seperate a seperate Music Series.
>

>
>Thus confirming the earlier suggestion that you are unfamiliar with
>more than a trivial concept of religious belief and practice.

That is because religion is a lifestyle choice that I have ZERO interest in.
It is a life style that is not for me. To me- all religious practices and
belief are trivial.


_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Stockhausen's Light
Date: 21 Mar 2002 17:28:40 -0800

on 3/21/02 5:26 PM, Joseph Zitt at [e-mail] wrote:

> OTOH, couldn't it be said that all of a composer's works are, in some
> sense, transitional?

wouldn't that question best be asked on a case by case basis?

skip h


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "john schuller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: How come?(Radical Jewish Kultur)
Date: 21 Mar 2002 17:27:54 -0800


> > Now please, do yourself a favor. Do not waste time dissecting every
>piece of
> > deluded grammar in your life.
>
>And from where is this perception injected?

It is what you do.
>
>I take it that you finally acknowledge your inability to answer the
>questions asked?

Nope I was being sarcastic. I feel sorry for your friends, family and co
workers if this is how you always act. Do you such "intellectual debates" in
your head when you wipe your butt? Do I wipe forward? Do I wipe from behind?
Do I fold it twice, if I do will I contradict all of my previous wipings in
the past?

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jim Flannery <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Music Categories [was: Re: Fwd: Pierre Henry]
Date: 21 Mar 2002 17:57:43 -0800

I once got a copy of Nurse With Wound's _Sylvie & Babs_ for $4 (marked
down several times) out of the "Jazz S" section of a store in
Sacramento. Damn moldy figs just weren't interested in jazz by women I
guess.

--=20
Jim Flannery                                           [e-mail]

         "When I say =91no=92 I=92m always right and when I say =91yes=92=
=20
          I=92m almost always wrong."
                                           -- Dwight Macdonald
np: nothing
nr: John Lanchester, _The Debt to Pleasure_

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: duncan youngerman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: How come?(Radical Jewish Kultur)
Date: 22 Mar 2002 02:53:55 +0100



Joseph Zitt a =E9crit :

> On Thu, Mar 21, 2002 at 10:02:46PM +0100, duncan youngerman wrote:
>
> > Germanic music was at it's best (Bach through Romanticism) when it
> > did'nt think of itself as historically superior, or even germanic in the
> > first place(Mozart wrote  operas in french and italian, Beethoven loved
> > the French Revolution and Hinduist philosophy, etc=2E)!=2E When it did t=
hink
> > itself as this falsly homogeneous, distinct and superior culture
> > (post-Wagnerianism to the present, by way of the Third Reich) it stopped
> > to produce things of much interest=2E
>
> The difference here is that Radical Jewish Culture in no way presents
> itself as "superior" to other music=2E And the artists in the series
> continue to work within other contexts=2E

There's something dubious in this age of globalisation, single European
currency, and Eucumenical United Nations organisations to emphasize
"radically" the racial or religious nature of a cultural group, especially
when it has little if anything to do with the activity at hand, and comes ou=
t
of an utterly cosmopolitan cultural environment=2E It can only be perceived =
as
a gratuitous provocation or agression (albeit in this case an innocuous one)
when the (civilized) world at large is making unprecedented efforts to tone
down and transcend its shrill particularisms=2E

> > I also happen to find the Radical Jewish Culture series in dreadful
> > taste in relation to the daily bulldozing and shooting in the occupied
> > territories of Palestine=2E
>
> That evinces either a confusion of Judaism as a whole with the specific
> implementation of Zionism regrettably in prectice there, or simple
> anti-Jewish prejudice=2E Which is it?

John Ashcroft or Donald Rumsfeld react just like you at the slightest
questionning of America=2E
You cannot deny that Judaism (just like Islam or Christianity, and even now
Hinduism) is being used as a pretext for dehumanisation and hatred of what's
different=2E And therefore to wave that flag implies a responsability=2E A p=
erson
claiming to be a Radical Germanic Artist in the 1930's would have faced
criticism, and rightfully so=2E

> > As for the remarketing of Serge Gainsbourg or Burt Bacharach under this
> > umbrella, it's a clever, eye-catching provocation but as unconnected to
> > reality as the  linking by some of Iran to North Korea=2E
>
> I raised my eyebrow at those choices too, and didn't get them=2E But I
> don't begrudge Zorn his ability to choose to package and release these
> recordings in this way, and am intrigued by the way that these
> releases raised the issue of what Jewish Culture actually is=2E
>
> > Jaco Pastorius: Radical Italian culture=2E
> > Edgar Allen Poe: Radical Protestant culture=2E
> > Mao Tse Toung: Radical Confucian culture=2E
>
> And you would, indeed, be as free to release them as such as Tzadik is
> to release the Radical Jewish Culture series=2E Congratulations=2E

I'd be a radical asshole!
D=2E




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: How Come?
Date: 21 Mar 2002 21:05:26 -0600

On Thu, Mar 21, 2002 at 05:23:29PM -0800, john schuller wrote:

> >In what way are you incapable of seeing this?
>
> Explain your view of how that is complaining about Political Correctness and
> I will see the way the I am currently incapable of seeing this. Do it. I
> dare ya.

Explain to me how you are not seeing it, and I will fill in the gap.

> Because the marketing of those projects promotes seperation. People hanging
> out with others of like backgrounds etc. just promotes people hanging out.

Again: you find some unstated problem with people creating projects
(which, of course, are inextricable from that to which I am guessing
that you refer by the term "marketing") based on that which they find
that they have in common with some others. If you do not find this to
be a problem, then explain why you approve of other projects that can
safely be predicted not to be of interest to any other subset of the
world population.

> Not "Look at me, I am different because I was born with different
> genetalia"...

If you consider women's issues to be a simple matter of "genitalia",
you demonstrate your further incomprehension of the lives of people
other than yourself.

> > > How? I don't dislike the recording projects. I dislike that they are
> > > marketed the way they are.
> >
> >How are you drawing this distinction?
>
> Here is our "People with Vagina" series. Etc. Etc.

Again: how are you drawing the difference between the recording and marketing of the Radical Jewish Culture series? With the possible exception of the Great Jewish Composers trilogy (which I suspect is the joker in the deck), the other items in the series are particularly relevant to Jewish culture, and were primarily created expressly for that series.

Your repeated issue with "genetalia" (sic) and "Vagina" is best left
as a matter for your therapist.

> >Yet you find it, and not the others, as a valid parameter for
> >aggregation. I ask again: why?
>
> It is valid just because all it is a geographical spot. In different
> countries the music can be very different from others. Sort of like how
> people with penises make different music than those with vaginas. They
> should all be in seperate a seperate Music Series.

Unfortunately, possibly as a result of the displayed psychosexual issues, the above paragraph has lost even syntactical coherence. Try again?

> >Thus confirming the earlier suggestion that you are unfamiliar with
> >more than a trivial concept of religious belief and practice.
>
> That is because religion is a lifestyle choice that I have ZERO interest in.
> It is a life style that is not for me. To me- all religious practices and
> belief are trivial.

"trivial"... "ZERO interest"... yet you repeatedly and vociferously
condemn its expression in art. Curious.

That you project your lack of interest in it into a demand that you
place on others fits snugly into the arrogant solipsism which you have
revealed so far.

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Stockhausen's Light
Date: 21 Mar 2002 21:16:07 -0600

On Thu, Mar 21, 2002 at 05:28:40PM -0800, skip Heller wrote:
> on 3/21/02 5:26 PM, Joseph Zitt at [e-mail] wrote:
>
> > OTOH, couldn't it be said that all of a composer's works are, in some
> > sense, transitional?
>
> wouldn't that question best be asked on a case by case basis?

Well, it would seem to me that the only case in which a piece were not
transitional would be if the composer had determined never to compose
again. (Even a composer's last works tend to be written without the
knowledge that they would be his last.) Otherwise, doesn't the
continuing output reflect at least, to some extent, the experience
gained in writing previous pieces?

Looking at the composers with whom I'm most familiar, the ongoing
mutation of materials, techniques, and style seem to be pretty
clear. Even when they have reapproached their earlier methods and
styles, it is with the added information and experience of the elapsed
years.

I can imagine instances where a composer would get stuck writing
pretty much the same piece over and over for the rest of his life. But
I would hope that this would be the exception, and suspect that, even
there, we might find ongoing elements of change.

(Which all sounds way stuffier than I intended.)

Does this correlate with your experience?

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: How come?(Radical Jewish Kultur)
Date: 21 Mar 2002 21:30:36 -0600

On Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 02:53:55AM +0100, duncan youngerman wrote:

> There's something dubious in this age of globalisation, single European
> currency, and Eucumenical United Nations organisations to emphasize
> "radically" the racial or religious nature of a cultural group, especially
> when it has little if anything to do with the activity at hand, and comes out
> of an utterly cosmopolitan cultural environment. It can only be perceived as
> a gratuitous provocation or agression (albeit in this case an innocuous one)
> when the (civilized) world at large is making unprecedented efforts to tone
> down and transcend its shrill particularisms.

Part of these efforts are the recognition that there is something to
be gained from appreciating and working with the colourful and mostly
benign variety within humankind. To look at one of the most egregious
exemplars of globalism, I understand that McDonald's franchises in
Israel, Japan, and France, for example, are far from identical.

Do you believe homogenous globalisation to be an unadulterated boon? If
not, why would you not celebrate cultural variety?

> > > I also happen to find the Radical Jewish Culture series in dreadful
> > > taste in relation to the daily bulldozing and shooting in the occupied
> > > territories of Palestine.
> >
> > That evinces either a confusion of Judaism as a whole with the specific
> > implementation of Zionism regrettably in prectice there, or simple
> > anti-Jewish prejudice. Which is it?
>
> John Ashcroft or Donald Rumsfeld react just like you at the slightest
> questionning of America.
> You cannot deny that Judaism (just like Islam or Christianity, and even now
> Hinduism) is being used as a pretext for dehumanisation and hatred of what's
> different. And therefore to wave that flag implies a responsability. A person
> claiming to be a Radical Germanic Artist in the 1930's would have faced
> criticism, and rightfully so.

Thus, again, you confuse religion and state action.

I recognize that the religion is being used by some as a pretext for
brutality. In other forums, I am working to change that. But to
completely decry a religion due to a particular set of acts by some of
its adherents is, at best, unconscionable.

I understand that the European viewpoint is somewhat more touchy on
terms of apparent nationalism than viewpoint in the States tend to
be. Thus, perhaps, the impulse to miscategorize religion-based culture
outside of political contexts as such?

And can you point to any belief system with a sufficiently large number
of adherents that never been used as a cover for negative action? If
not, why the vehemence here?

> > > As for the remarketing of Serge Gainsbourg or Burt Bacharach under this
> > > umbrella, it's a clever, eye-catching provocation but as unconnected to
> > > reality as the  linking by some of Iran to North Korea.
> >
> > I raised my eyebrow at those choices too, and didn't get them. But I
> > don't begrudge Zorn his ability to choose to package and release these
> > recordings in this way, and am intrigued by the way that these
> > releases raised the issue of what Jewish Culture actually is.
> >
> > > Jaco Pastorius: Radical Italian culture.
> > > Edgar Allen Poe: Radical Protestant culture.
> > > Mao Tse Toung: Radical Confucian culture.
> >
> > And you would, indeed, be as free to release them as such as Tzadik is
> > to release the Radical Jewish Culture series. Congratulations.
>
> I'd be a radical asshole!

If that is what you wish to be, that is what you are free to be.

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: How come?(Radical Jewish Kultur)
Date: 21 Mar 2002 21:32:19 -0600

On Thu, Mar 21, 2002 at 05:27:54PM -0800, john schuller wrote:
>
> > > Now please, do yourself a favor. Do not waste time dissecting every
> >piece of
> > > deluded grammar in your life.
> >
> >And from where is this perception injected?
>
> It is what you do.

Based on your perception of a single day's writing?

> >I take it that you finally acknowledge your inability to answer the
> >questions asked?
>
> Nope I was being sarcastic. I feel sorry for your friends, family and co
> workers if this is how you always act. Do you such "intellectual debates" in
> your head when you wipe your butt? Do I wipe forward? Do I wipe from behind?
> Do I fold it twice, if I do will I contradict all of my previous wipings in
> the past?

Ah, does this fit is with your repeated references to genitalia in
other messages?

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: duncan youngerman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re:flag-waving
Date: 22 Mar 2002 04:22:59 +0100

>
> Do you believe homogenous globalisation to be an unadulterated boon?

Surely not, but chauvinism (of any sort) has got to go. Very dangerous stuff.

> If not, why would you not celebrate cultural variety?

Celebrate it in your work, or in your life. Just don't wave a flag about it.
The problem here is flags (very popular right now in the U.S., I understand)

> Thus, again, you confuse religion and state action.
>
> And can you point to any belief system with a sufficiently large number
> of adherents that never been used as a cover for negative action? If
> not, why the vehemence here?

I never said, however much you'd like to hear it, that the Jewish faith was any
different from any other in that respect (in fact it's been better than others, if
only out of necessity).
I do believe in strict separation of State and Church. But Israel being a
religious state (like the Vatican or Saudi Arabia), I don't see how one could
conveniantly perform the separation.

> > > > Jaco Pastorius: Radical Italian culture.
> > > > Edgar Allen Poe: Radical Protestant culture.
> > > > Mao Tse Toung: Radical Confucian culture.
> > >
> > > And you would, indeed, be as free to release them as such as Tzadik is
> > > to release the Radical Jewish Culture series. Congratulations.
> >
> > I'd be a radical asshole!
>
> If that is what you wish to be, that is what you are free to be.

Where did I say I'd wish to be one?
D.

>
>
>
>
> -


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Herb Levy <[e-mail]>
Subject: Mike Patton in new Dennis Hopper movie
Date: 21 Mar 2002 21:35:55 -0600

Some of y'all will be more interested in this than I am, but the
current issue of Film Comment includes a brief listing about a
forthcoming Dennis Hopper movie, Firecracker, the cast of which
includes Edward Furlong, Debbie Harry, Mike Patton, Jane Wiedlin.

That's pretty much all it says.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Stockhausen's Light
Date: 21 Mar 2002 19:42:05 -0800

on 3/21/02 7:16 PM, Joseph Zitt at [e-mail] wrote:

> On Thu, Mar 21, 2002 at 05:28:40PM -0800, skip Heller wrote:
>> on 3/21/02 5:26 PM, Joseph Zitt at [e-mail] wrote:
>>
>>> OTOH, couldn't it be said that all of a composer's works are, in some
>>> sense, transitional?
>>
>> wouldn't that question best be asked on a case by case basis?
>
> Well, it would seem to me that the only case in which a piece were not
> transitional would be if the composer had determined never to compose
> again. (Even a composer's last works tend to be written without the
> knowledge that they would be his last.) Otherwise, doesn't the
> continuing output reflect at least, to some extent, the experience
> gained in writing previous pieces?
>
> Looking at the composers with whom I'm most familiar, the ongoing
> mutation of materials, techniques, and style seem to be pretty
> clear. Even when they have reapproached their earlier methods and
> styles, it is with the added information and experience of the elapsed
> years.
>
> I can imagine instances where a composer would get stuck writing
> pretty much the same piece over and over for the rest of his life. But
> I would hope that this would be the exception, and suspect that, even
> there, we might find ongoing elements of change.
>
> (Which all sounds way stuffier than I intended.)
>
> Does this correlate with your experience?

Not neccessarily.  Some composers fall into periods where they've kind of
reached their conclusions about certain concepts and they write what they
found (re: Mahler around the Kindertotlieder and the 5), or have a
methodology that bypasses the popular definition of "transitional" (Ives
after the 3) because they visit and revisit, or because maybe the phase
they're in involves older materials (just about anybody's neo-classical
phase, especially Stravinsky).  I think just because you're returning to an
earlier form with different experience doesn't mean a transition.  I think
that's putting too philosophical abent on things.  A lot of it just comes
down to getting the music done on your deadline instead of the loftier art
stuff, and I say this as someone who pays the rent mostly as a composer.

skip h


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Perfect Sound Forever <[e-mail]>
Subject: Walter Ruttman
Date: 21 Mar 2002 22:44:59 -0500

Since someone mentioned Walter Ruttman on this list recently, I decided to
find his work.  "Weekend" (Metamkine 3"CD) is an excellent collage record-
much more interesting than anything I've heard from Nurse With Wound.  If
anyone's interested, it's available from forcedexposure.com

Best,
Jason

Perfect Sound Forever
online music magazine
[e-mail]
http://www.furious.com/perfect


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Mike Patton in new Dennis Hopper movie
Date: 21 Mar 2002 22:49:25 EST

I heard an interview done with Mike Patton (during Fantomas's last tour) and
he mentioned doing two films. both of which he vaguely described himself as
gangster or thug type. he gave no titles, but made it clear he is not an
actor and he was specifically asked to do both of the aforementioned films,
he didn't seek the roles out.

-mike thompson

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: flag-waving
Date: 21 Mar 2002 23:25:24 -0600

On Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 04:22:59AM +0100, duncan youngerman wrote:
> >
> > Do you believe homogenous globalisation to be an unadulterated boon?
>
> Surely not, but chauvinism (of any sort) has got to go. Very dangerous stuff.

So how would you balance these? And where you choose to paint
"chauvinism" in this issue?

> > If not, why would you not celebrate cultural variety?
>
> Celebrate it in your work, or in your life.

Yet you protest Zorn, et al, doing exactly that. Do you see the
contradiction?

> Just don't wave a flag about it.
> The problem here is flags (very popular right now in the U.S., I understand)

The problem here is that you misperceive the issue as being about
"flags".

Again, you confuse religion and state action.

> > Thus, again, you confuse religion and state action.
> >
> > And can you point to any belief system with a sufficiently large number
> > of adherents that never been used as a cover for negative action? If
> > not, why the vehemence here?
>
> I never said, however much you'd like to hear it, that the Jewish faith was any
> different from any other in that respect (in fact it's been better than others, if
> only out of necessity).

Then why do you choose specifically to denigrate just Judaism?

> I do believe in strict separation of State and Church. But Israel being a
> religious state (like the Vatican or Saudi Arabia), I don't see how one could
> conveniantly perform the separation.

Do you understand that not all Jews support the actions of the current
Israeli government, and some do not even recognize the government, or
even the existence of the state of Israel in the first place, as
valid?

To assume that every Jew agrees with every action of the government of
Israel is precisely the same as assuming that every Christian (yes,
including Russian Orthodox and Protestant) agrees with every action of
the Vatican or that every Muslim agreed with every action of the
Taliban. Or perhaps, for that matter, that every atheist agrees with
every action of People's Republic of China.

I note that you also find it difficult to conceive of an American
disagreeing with Donald Rumsfeld or George W. Bush. I think the
problem is that you have, mistakenly and far too easily, mapped the
statements and actions of people who happen to be in office at a given
time onto the supposed thoughts of all those who ostensibly are in
their jurisdiction. (And even in that, your perception of the
jurisdiction of the Israeli government is phenomenally inaccurate.)

Do you agree with every statement and action of every official in
France? If not, why do you assume this of others?

To quote Daniel Pearl, "I am a Jew. My mother and father are Jews." I
live within a rich religious culture, as well as a rich secular
culture in which the religious culture is able to flourish and
celebrate itself, and in a country where I am able to work within both
these religious and secular areas and, yes, able to protest when I
disagree with the officials of this and other governments.

I offer no apologies for this, and suggest that your misperceptions
might benefit from considering it.

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Stephen Fruitman)
Subject: "Religious" State Statement
Date: 22 Mar 2002 10:24:42 +0100 (MET)

>>Israel being a
>> religious state (like the Vatican or Saudi Arabia)

Just to clear the air, Israel is not a religious state. That would imply a
theocracy, where the religious leadership dictated government policy.

Stephen Fruitman
Dept of Historical Studies
Ume=E5 University
SE-901 87 Ume=E5 Sweden



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "john schuller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: How Come?
Date: 22 Mar 2002 02:10:14 -0800

Wow. This is more fun than a chatroom now. You are a knob of which I do not
care to spend much more time with. Do you even have an opinion? Or are you
here to question every sentence typed? I truly think you are a sad sad
person in need of some serious outside activity. I really do.

You cannot sense sarcasm.

1. I never complained about "Political Correctness".
2. Religion is a trivial matter. I do not see it's relevance to whether or
not the music is good. I can't wait to try some good Muslim food. How about
that new Christian Car? Have you checked out that Jehovah Witness Stereo?
3. Women have issues. Men have issues. Whites have issues. Blacks have
issues. Welcome to life. I think you have the most issues.
4. Religion is a lifestyle choice. I was born a European-American Male. Not
my choice. I am an atheist. My choice. My cousin was born a Europan-American
male. Not his choice. He is Mormon. His choice.
5. I believe in equality among men, women and all races and ethnicities. I
guess that makes me bad in your eyes.

John Schuller

Who is done with Mr. Zitt.


>From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
>To: john schuller <[e-mail]>
>CC: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: How Come?
>Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 21:05:26 -0600
>
>On Thu, Mar 21, 2002 at 05:23:29PM -0800, john schuller wrote:
>
> > >In what way are you incapable of seeing this?
> >
> > Explain your view of how that is complaining about Political Correctness
>and
> > I will see the way the I am currently incapable of seeing this. Do it. I
> > dare ya.
>
>Explain to me how you are not seeing it, and I will fill in the gap.
>
> > Because the marketing of those projects promotes seperation. People
>hanging
> > out with others of like backgrounds etc. just promotes people hanging
>out.
>
>Again: you find some unstated problem with people creating projects
>(which, of course, are inextricable from that to which I am guessing
>that you refer by the term "marketing") based on that which they find
>that they have in common with some others. If you do not find this to
>be a problem, then explain why you approve of other projects that can
>safely be predicted not to be of interest to any other subset of the
>world population.
>
> > Not "Look at me, I am different because I was born with different
> > genetalia"...
>
>If you consider women's issues to be a simple matter of "genitalia",
>you demonstrate your further incomprehension of the lives of people
>other than yourself.
>
> > > > How? I don't dislike the recording projects. I dislike that they are
> > > > marketed the way they are.
> > >
> > >How are you drawing this distinction?
> >
> > Here is our "People with Vagina" series. Etc. Etc.
>
>Again: how are you drawing the difference between the recording and
>marketing of the Radical Jewish Culture series? With the possible exception
>of the Great Jewish Composers trilogy (which I suspect is the joker in the
>deck), the other items in the series are particularly relevant to Jewish
>culture, and were primarily created expressly for that series.
>
>Your repeated issue with "genetalia" (sic) and "Vagina" is best left
>as a matter for your therapist.
>
> > >Yet you find it, and not the others, as a valid parameter for
> > >aggregation. I ask again: why?
> >
> > It is valid just because all it is a geographical spot. In different
> > countries the music can be very different from others. Sort of like how
> > people with penises make different music than those with vaginas. They
> > should all be in seperate a seperate Music Series.
>
>Unfortunately, possibly as a result of the displayed psychosexual issues,
>the above paragraph has lost even syntactical coherence. Try again?
>
> > >Thus confirming the earlier suggestion that you are unfamiliar with
> > >more than a trivial concept of religious belief and practice.
> >
> > That is because religion is a lifestyle choice that I have ZERO interest
>in.
> > It is a life style that is not for me. To me- all religious practices
>and
> > belief are trivial.
>
>"trivial"... "ZERO interest"... yet you repeatedly and vociferously
>condemn its expression in art. Curious.
>
>That you project your lack of interest in it into a demand that you
>place on others fits snugly into the arrogant solipsism which you have
>revealed so far.
>
>--
>| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
>| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
>|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
>| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
>| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |
>


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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "john schuller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: How come?(Radical Jewish Kultur)
Date: 22 Mar 2002 02:14:08 -0800

I am done with you. You outta check out female genetalia sometime. It's
nice.


>From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
>To: john schuller <[e-mail]>
>CC: [e-mail], [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: How come?(Radical Jewish Kultur)
>Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 21:32:19 -0600
>
>On Thu, Mar 21, 2002 at 05:27:54PM -0800, john schuller wrote:
> >
> > > > Now please, do yourself a favor. Do not waste time dissecting every
> > >piece of
> > > > deluded grammar in your life.
> > >
> > >And from where is this perception injected?
> >
> > It is what you do.
>
>Based on your perception of a single day's writing?
>
> > >I take it that you finally acknowledge your inability to answer the
> > >questions asked?
> >
> > Nope I was being sarcastic. I feel sorry for your friends, family and co
> > workers if this is how you always act. Do you such "intellectual
>debates" in
> > your head when you wipe your butt? Do I wipe forward? Do I wipe from
>behind?
> > Do I fold it twice, if I do will I contradict all of my previous wipings
>in
> > the past?
>
>Ah, does this fit is with your repeated references to genitalia in
>other messages?
>
>--
>| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
>| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
>|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
>| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
>| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |
>


_________________________________________________________________
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Caleb T. Deupree" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: musique concrete dead???
Date: 22 Mar 2002 05:59:06 -0500

I haven't read Schaeffer's TOM, but my understanding of musique concrete is
as composition with materials sampled from a given sound source, no longer
dependent on preconceived sound abstractions, but on existing sound
fragments considered as defined and complete sound objects.  In his own
work, Schaeffer used not only environmental sounds, most famously the
locomotives in his first noise =E9tude, but also more traditional
instrumental sounds (one of the other noise =E9tudes used the piano as the
sole sound source).

With this definition, it's easy to find compositions from the last 10-15
years that are musique concrete and do not contain any electronically
produced sound (the common denominator for all 'electronic music').
Bernhard G=FCnter generally doesn't specify his sound sources, but hasn't
generated any electronic sounds since his earliest compositions.  Francisco
L=F3pez has used rain forest or city noise for several compositions.
Soundscape artists like Eric La Casa and Hildegard Westerkamp don't use
electronically generated sound, although pure soundscapes use the sound as
a reference to a real place and not as a sound object.  Jonathan
Coleclough's composition Windlass is composed solely from sounds from a
lock at a dam.  John Wall and Paul Dolden have composed several pieces from
recorded instrumental sounds.  Robert Normandeau's Tangram album has pieces
composed solely from sounds of children reading from a dictionary.  A more
recent empreintes digitales release by Adrian Moore has an amazing piece
composed solely from sounds from a whiteboard marker.  I would not consider
Oswald's plunderphonics to be musique concrete because it relies on the
listener's recognition of the underlying sound source, which is contrary to
Schaeffer's sound object definition.

It is undeniable that Stockhausen's Gesang ended *a* debate that was raging
in the late 1940s-early 1950s about concrete vs. electronic music.  But if
there is a *musical* definition of musique concrete instead of just a
historical one (and I believe there is), the genre is clearly alive and
well. =20

At 09:46 AM 3/21/02 -0800, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:
>
>It would be interesting to shed some light on the motives behind the use of
>the name MUSIQUE CONCRETE (by these younger composers). Could it be simply
>that electronic music these days encompasses so many different genres from=
=20
>the most obscure to the most commercial, that a different label was=20
>needed?=20
>
>On the other side, MUSIQUE CONCRETE belongs to a bigone era and has a=20
>quaint charm. It might help young creators of experimental electroacoustic
>music to differentiate themselves from an expression ("electronic music")=
=20
>that has lost any power of classification (and I know, reading REVUE &=20
>CORRIGEE, that has annoyed some of these new composers).
>
>I feel that these composers who produce music under the MUSIQUE CONCRETE
>umbrella espoused more the philosophy of the MUSIQUE CONCRETE than really
>its fairly draconian methodology. =20
>
>Anyway, historically, after Stockhausen's GESANG DER JUNGLINGE (1956), the=
=20
>differentiation between MUSIQUE CONCRETE and electronic music lost its=20
>relevance. Happy to know that some composers want to open the debate=20
>again :-).
>
>    Patrice.
>
>-
>
>
>
--

Caleb Deupree
[e-mail]

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ricardo Reis <[e-mail]>
Subject: Pascal comelade (was: Musique concrete dead?)
Date: 22 Mar 2002 11:14:37 +0000 (WET)


> metal office bureaus, toys (think of pierre bastien and pascal comelade),

> Best wishes,
> Stefan Verstraeten

    can you shed some more light about Pascal Comelade?

            greets,
                 Ricardo Reis

                "Non Serviam"


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: duncan youngerman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: flag-waving, packaging and martyrdom
Date: 22 Mar 2002 12:31:57 +0100



Joseph Zitt a =E9crit :

> On Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 04:22:59AM +0100, duncan youngerman wrote:
> > >
> > > Do you believe homogenous globalisation to be an unadulterated boon?
> >
> > Surely not, but chauvinism (of any sort) has got to go=2E Very dangerous=
 stuff=2E
>
> So how would you balance these? And where you choose to paint
> "chauvinism" in this issue?

See below=2E

> > > If not, why would you not celebrate cultural variety?
> >
> > Celebrate it in your work, or in your life=2E
>
> Yet you protest Zorn, et al, doing exactly that=2E Do you see the
> contradiction?

The music has never been the issue=2E The packaging, yes=2E Packaging can be=
 important=2E
Wagner's packaging offends many and all too often obscures the remarkable an=
d universal
qualities of his music=2E

> > Just don't wave a flag about it=2E
> > The problem here is flags (very popular right now in the U=2ES=2E, I und=
erstand)
>
> The problem here is that you misperceive the issue as being about
> "flags"=2E

Come on, you know perfectly well what is meant here: proselitism, clanic thi=
nking,"Us"
vs=2E"Them", "the N=2EY=2E Mets kick the Miami Dolphins' asses", not so inno=
cuous when
connected to religion or race (as you pointed out, this is better understood=
 in Europe
for obvious reasons) and placed just a little bit outside of rarified cosmop=
olitan
intellectual circles=2E
If there is only one God, then he also made the Quakers and the Hindus and t=
he
atheists, so why not just leave it at that and come off of our little pedest=
als and
cubicles, embrace one another, stop bickering or boasting about "Our" Shiny =
City on the
Hill or "Our" Chosen People=2E

> Again, you confuse religion and state action=2E
>
> > > Thus, again, you confuse religion and state action=2E
> > >
> > > And can you point to any belief system with a sufficiently large numbe=
r
> > > of adherents that never been used as a cover for negative action? If
> > > not, why the vehemence here?
> >
> > I never said, however much you'd like to hear it, that the Jewish faith =
was any
> > different from any other in that respect (in fact it's been better than =
others, if
> > only out of necessity)=2E
>
> Then why do you choose specifically to denigrate just Judaism?

First, I denigrate proselitism, if anything=2E
Second, did'nt this start out as a discussion of Zorn's Radical Jewish serie=
s?
Had it been about so and so's Radical Basque series, I would question that l=
abeling in
exactly the same way=2E
Why do you need to paint anybody who questions or criticizes your viewpoint =
as an
antisemite?

> > I do believe in strict separation of State and Church=2E But Israel bein=
g a
> > religious state (like the Vatican or Saudi Arabia), I don't see how one =
could
> > conveniantly perform the separation=2E
>
> Do you understand that not all Jews support the actions of the current
> Israeli government, and some do not even recognize the government, or
> even the existence of the state of Israel in the first place, as
> valid?
>
> To assume that every Jew agrees with every action of the government of
> Israel is precisely the same as assuming that every Christian (yes,
> including Russian Orthodox and Protestant) agrees with every action of
> the Vatican or that every Muslim agreed with every action of the
> Taliban=2E Or perhaps, for that matter, that every atheist agrees with
> every action of People's Republic of China=2E

I find "radical atheists" narrow-minded, and the crimes of Stalin, Hitler, M=
ao and Pol
Pot would forever prevent me from claiming to be a "Radical Atheist"=2E

> I note that you also find it difficult to conceive of an American
> disagreeing with Donald Rumsfeld or George W=2E Bush=2E

Of course not, since I and my family happen to be American=2E
However, Rumsfeld and W=2E do share your problem of not understanding why so=
me people
find certain wordings unnecessarily provocative, like "Crusade", "Evil", "Zi=
onist",
"Radical Jewish", etc=2E

> I think the problem is that you have, mistakenly and far too easily, mappe=
d the
> statements and actions of people who happen to be in office at a given
> time onto the supposed thoughts of all those who ostensibly are in
> their jurisdiction=2E (And even in that, your perception of the
> jurisdiction of the Israeli government is phenomenally inaccurate=2E)

> Do you agree with every statement and action of every official in France? =
If not, why
> do you assume this of others?

When France collaborated with and covered up the genocide of the Tutsis in R=
wanda
(1994), I did'nt go around waving a French flag=2E
Even less a Radical Hutu one=2E

> To quote Daniel Pearl, "I am a Jew=2E My mother and father are Jews=2E"

Daniel Pearl was murdered by people who define themselves as "radical muslim=
s"=2E
That's just the problem I have with the self-definition as "radical", radica=
lism as a
whole, and religious or ethnic fervor in general=2E
You don't have to remind me that many religious or ethnic radicals are peace=
-loving=2E It
does'nt change the problematic connection=2E
In fact, where are the mass demonstrations of Muslims against Osama Bin Lade=
n, of Jews
against Sharon or the settlers, Catholics and Protestants against Irish terr=
orism and
for reconciliation? The smallest local soccer game gets more crowds than all=
 of the
above in a decade=2E

> I live within a rich religious culture, as well as a rich secular
> culture in which the religious culture is able to flourish and
> celebrate itself, and in a country where I am able to work within both
> these religious and secular areas and, yes, able to protest when I
> disagree with the officials of this and other governments=2E
>
> I offer no apologies for this, and suggest that your misperceptions
> might benefit from considering it=2E

To imply that I would have expected you to apologize for something is to put=
 me falsely
in the position of an oppressor which nothing I've written to you justifies=
=2E
Your identification with Daniel Pearl during this discussion (what is that s=
upposed to
make me?) confirms the impression that for you criticism and debate can only=
 be
connected to martyrdom or not be=2E

I have no problem saying that I respect your approach to culture, art and re=
ligion, and
in fact that I've learned some things from some of your answers=2E
I hope you've come to at least seeing how and why one can think like I (and =
several
others) do=2E
D=2E

>
>


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Arthur Gadney" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fela Kuti
Date: 22 Mar 2002 11:37:18 +0000

Hey guys.

My local shop has a bunch of Fela Kuti things for sale, and I'm wondering if
I should pick them up. There is so much of his stuff suddenly rereleased and
frankly, not all of it is worth owning.
So, has anybody heard any of the following:

"Upside Down?Music Of Many Colors"
"Open & Close/Afrodisiac"
"Monkey Banana/Excuse"

I think "Shuffering & Shmiling" is a masterpiece and "Live In berlin" is
really great as well. The newer stuff, like "Beast Of No Nation" I find
really dreadful.

And while we are at it. Both Antibalas Afrobeat Orchestra and Secret Chiefs
3 have excellent covers of a song called "Safina". Who worte that, and where
is it origianlly from?? Other great recording of this beautiful composition
out there???

Thanks.

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Efr=E9n=20del=20Valle?= <[e-mail]>
Subject: Ooops!... Britney again!
Date: 22 Mar 2002 12:42:48 +0100 (CET)

Hi,

Today the Spanish audience will enjoy the theatrical
release of "Crossroads" with our pop-icon Britney
Spears as the main subject (virginity,
sex-discovering, ...). But what shocked me is the name
of the director: Tamra Davis.
If my memory serves, Davis is the wife of one of
Beastie Boys' members and has directed some Sonic
Youth videos. In fact, SY dedicated one song to her,
"Tamra" in their album "Goo" if I recall. Are the
"underground" filmmaker and the Hollywood-puppet the
same person?!

Everyone's got a price...

Best,

EfrΘn del Valle
n.p: William Parker "O'Neals Porch"

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Darti Bastamai" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Safina (from Fela Kuti)
Date: 22 Mar 2002 07:40:45 -0500

"And while we are at it. Both Antibalas Afrobeat Orchestra and Secret Chiefs
3 have excellent covers of a song called "Safina". Who worte that, and where
is it origianlly from?? Other great recording of this beautiful composition
out there??? "

I believe it is a variation on "Musicawi Sitt" by a band called The
Daktari's .



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Darti Bastamai" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Ooops!... Britney again!
Date: 22 Mar 2002 07:46:47 -0500

>Are the
"underground" filmmaker and the Hollywood-puppet the
same person?!<
It probably the same person, but I think it is the difference of a Britney
Spears movie being a means to make money, where as "underground filmmaker"
is an expression of art.

A good example is Henry Miller... he was an excellent writer, but also wrote
porn-for-hire stories when he was broke... its a matter of getting by, and I
don't think anyone would confuse a money job for art...

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "patbor" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Reed-Bacharach
Date: 22 Mar 2002 08:33:25 -0500

Hello,

do I find someone who thinks that Bacharach

has influenced Lou Reed's songwriting?

Reed has payed tribute to Kurt Weill and

Doc Pomus but never arranged a song by Bacharach.

Still I think there are many connections between

the two, especially in ballads. What do You think?

Bye
PatB

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Reed-Bacharach
Date: 22 Mar 2002 08:55:55 EST

In a message dated 3/22/02 8:36:00 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<<
 do I find someone who thinks that Bacharach

 has influenced Lou Reed's songwriting?
  >>
As we all know, Elvis was influenced by Dean Martin

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: aaron chua <[e-mail]>
Subject: Gil Scott Heron (wuz hip hop)
Date: 22 Mar 2002 06:12:38 -0800 (PST)

while on the topic of GSH, i'm curious where to start
with him. seems to be a heap of comps out there.
rgrds
aaron
ps for a funny take on hiphop check out  Gold Chains (
i believe Kit Clayton is involved somehow). Very slick
production. i think they (?) are touring w/ Super
Collider. (the band not the software)

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards«
http://movies.yahoo.com/

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: jason tors <[e-mail]>
Subject: [berne] scifri .nzc.
Date: 22 Mar 2002 06:57:10 -0800 (PST)

I got science friction in the mail yesterday. Its a real surprise, a
bit of a departure, but a logical one for tim. The combination of craig
taborn and ducret works really well, providing very distinct texture
leaving the punchy drums, btw I think that rainey has to be telepathic,
there are some things that he catches on to that are just uncanny. Tim
is on quite a recording growth spurt, I am still digesting open, coma
and now this. On my second run thru I am noticing greater integration
of written sections and freewheeling. Craig creates some interesting
electronic sections, he is really impressing me lately, his trio disc
is super dense.

On the ornette tip, this might be me just reading into things, but the
title, science friction, one of the song titles is manatee woman [tim
has the best song titles!] something about the surface sound of this
instrumentation reminds me slightly of ornette's song x, but its really
surface. Is there a connection?

Any thoughts on the new cobra release?

np: berne.sciencefriction

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards«
http://movies.yahoo.com/

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Re: How come?(Radical Jewish Kultur)
Date: 22 Mar 2002 15:16:18 +0000

>From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Re: How come?(Radical Jewish Kultur)
>
>Part of these efforts are the recognition that there is something to
>be gained from appreciating and working with the colourful and mostly
>benign variety within humankind. To look at one of the most egregious
>exemplars of globalism, I understand that McDonald's franchises in
>Israel, Japan, and France, for example, are far from identical.

Indeed.  If you go to Bombay, you can buy a Maharashtra Burger made
naturally from pork.  In Bangkok, pork burgers are preferred over beef ones.
  Here in Seoul, Burger King has decided that a diner aesthetic with photos
of Marilyn Monroe, James Dean, and jazz record albums of the fifties and
sixties in the US is what sells burgers.  If you go to a 7-11 in Bangkok or
Seoul, you can get dried squid rather than beef jerky.  All of the major US
corporations abroad play the game this way.  The multinational sells itself
by adopting local taste.




William L. Ashline
Department of English Language and Literature
Yonsei University
Seoul, Korea 120-749
http://www.yonsei.ac.kr/YSI/ysi?a=eng.academic.AcademicView&Depth=4&Code=030010002003


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: knocking on the floodgates
Date: 22 Mar 2002 10:31:01 EST

ok - i was issued a challenge in one of my music theory classes to bring in a
piece of music that is truly innovative and has never been done before. this
was thought to be impossible according to the discussion among the rest of
the class. this came about sadly because of another critical listening
session where someone brought in scott wieland's "twelve bar blues" album and
called it extremely innovative and "way out there". well, this comment rubbed
a certain classmate (who happens to be a zorn fan) very much in the wrong
way. so he (a normally reserved student) scoffed openly at the idea of
weiland's work on that album being innovative or really even remotely new and
thought it was unfair to call him innovative in any respect (except maybe
drug abuse).

then the challenge was issued due to the fact that the instructor said it's
all been done before in some degree or another. the class agreed. the student
and I did not.

immediately i began thinking of perhaps bringing in some Partch (who again,
quite sadly, i discovered my "instructor" has never even heard before. then I
thought of Patton's "Adult themes for Voice" or Zorn's "songs from the
hermetic theater" and a of course a very few other's. my collection is
limited as I lived in a small town until last fall and these things are hard
to come by when the only record store is a wal mart. i've done a lot of
driving just get my john zorn and tom waits collection built up!

it's too easy to say well "at the time this came out it was very innovative"
because then we could spend a year or two on this subject (beatles, pink
floyd, radiohead) on really popular music that was a little different than
most at the time it came out. No, my challenge is now to you (who seem to be
infinitely more experienced in this field than I) to help me with this and
point out some truly innovative works and point out why you think that they
are just that. (hense the title of this e-mail)

p.s. - i am new to this "musique concrete" you've been discussing lately and
i am very interested in this. could you recommend your favorite works? also,
at the risk of sounding ignorant, would you say that zorn's "beuysblock"
contains elements of musique concrete or no? just trying to terribly hard to
learn all i can.

your friend - mike


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "John Thomas"<[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Fela
Date: 22 Mar 2002 09:34:44 -0600



> Hey guys.
>
> My local shop has a bunch of Fela Kuti things for sale, and
> I'm wondering if
> I should pick them up. There is so much of his stuff suddenly
> rereleased and
> frankly, not all of it is worth owning.
> So, has anybody heard any of the following:
>
> "Upside Down?Music Of Many Colors"
> "Open & Close/Afrodisiac"
> "Monkey Banana/Excuse"

I have 3 Felas and "Monkey Banana/Excuse-O" is my favorite by
far, it is fantastic. Great tunes, grooving, cool horn playing.
My taste runs more to jazz in general and the music on this is
something I identified with immediately. It even reminded me of
Sun Ra in some ways.

John

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: knocking on the floodgates
Date: 22 Mar 2002 10:39:27 EST

mmm.  innovative works.

i think what i'd do is continue making a huge stink over scott weiland's lack
of innovation, carry it out for a few days, and then bring in some john
corigliano and proclaim its innovation.  ;)

but seriously, some works i would consider innovative (whether i like them or
not):

In C (Riley)
Piano Phase (Reich)
Stimmung (Stockhausen)
any Ives symphony or concert band piece
Symphony No. 1 (Branca)
any old Sonic Youth album
Velvet Underground with Nico (Warhol album)
Pet Sounds (Beach Boys)
any Meredith Monk

:) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .



---
[.n0thing.is.what.is.sAid.]
k a t e  p e t e r s o n
c o m p o s e r / p e r f o r m e r

http://www.geocities.com/uforbk8/kate.html
http://www.icefoundation.org (roundtable)

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Gil Scott Heron (wuz hip hop)
Date: 22 Mar 2002 08:29:01 -0800

on 3/22/02 6:12 AM, aaron chua at [e-mail] wrote:

> while on the topic of GSH, i'm curious where to start
> with him. seems to be a heap of comps out there.
> rgrds
> aaron

find the old LP THE MIND OF GIL SCOTT HERON, which, to me, is a perfect
primer of him

skip h


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Reed-Bacharach
Date: 22 Mar 2002 08:32:42 -0800

on 3/22/02 5:55 AM, [e-mail] at [e-mail] wrote:

> In a message dated 3/22/02 8:36:00 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> [e-mail] writes:
>
> <<
> do I find someone who thinks that Bacharach
>
> has influenced Lou Reed's songwriting?
>>>
> As we all know, Elvis was influenced by Dean Martin
>
> -
>
"Candy Says" always sounded to me like it was Burt-influenced (specifically
the chord progression).  I looked all over the place thru Lou interviews to
see if he designed it that way on purpose, but no luck.

sh


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Kurt Gottschalk" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: grandtomtomchic(no onion content)
Date: 22 Mar 2002 16:46:15 +0000


> >> "the message" came out WAY before genius of love, and both cop a riff
>from a
> >> song by chic.
> >
> > Uh, OK, this is getting weird. What Chic song might this be?
>
>"Good Times", wasn't it? That was an early staple for MCs back in the day.
>It was the backing track for "Rapper's Delight" and several other things
>(whose names slip my memory).

ok, since the chic thread is surprisingly staying alive, i get the chance to
tell the TRUE STORY of where the riff came from, as told to me directly by
nile rogers.

nile and bernie had a mtg with some record exec, before chic and before
recording. took their demos in, all excited, and were flat-out rejected.
they went home and wrote "good times", except the original lyrics were "fuck
you".

c'est freak,

kurt


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: grandtomtomchic(no onion content)
Date: 22 Mar 2002 08:57:18 -0800

on 3/22/02 8:46 AM, Kurt Gottschalk at [e-mail] wrote:

> nile and bernie had a mtg with some record exec, before chic and before
> recording. took their demos in, all excited, and were flat-out rejected.
> they went home and wrote "good times", except the original lyrics were "fuck
> you".

makes you hope the demo turns up real soon, in light of the current state of
the industry.

skip h


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Steve Smith" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Big John Patton left us...
Date: 22 Mar 2002 12:06:50 -0500

Geez, right after Shirley Scott?!?

Steve Smith
[e-mail]
NP - Geirr Tveitt, A Hundred Hardanger Tunes, Suite No. 5 - RSNO/Engeset
(Naxos)

-----Original Message-----
[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Patrice L.
Roussel

    Another sad news.

There is a message on r.m.b. saying that Big John Patton passed away on
Tuesday 3/19/02.

    Patrice.


-


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:    [e-mail] (Patrick Carey)
Subject: Non-JZ FS: New Miles Davis 2CDs
Date: 22 Mar 2002 12:13:06 -0500

Of possible interest ... NEW COPIES of these classic live Miles 2CDs:

** PRICES ARE US$ POSTAGE PAID ** in North America (more for overseas)

$16 -- Miles Davis - "Agharta" US 2CD (Columbia/Legacy: c2k46799) 1991
       [Recorded live at Osaka Festival Hall, Japan - 2/1/75.  Davis
       with Sonny Fortune, Michael Henderson, Pete Cosey, Al Foster,
       Reggie Lucas & Mtume.  Digitally remastered.  Mint.]

$16 -- Miles Davis - "Pangaea" US 2CD (Columbia/Legacy: c2k46115) 1991
       [Recorded live at Osaka Festival Hall, Japan - 2/1/75.  Davis
       with Sonny Fortune, Michael Henderson, Pete Cosey, Al Foster,
       Reggie Lucas & Mtume.  Digitally remastered.  Mint.]

Email if interested,


-Patrick
[e-mail]







-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Kurt Gottschalk" <[e-mail]>
Subject: please
Date: 22 Mar 2002 17:28:07 +0000

the self-annointed herbivore rises again, now that hopefully this latest fog
has passed.

look, mssr rizzi has repeatedly posted about personal insults, and i don't
like reading them. the latest round of freudian refs and thinly veiled
accusations of homosexuality is
goddamn-motherfucking-piece-of-rotten-shit-quit-acting-like-assholes
uncalled for. really.

good times/these are such good times/leave your cares behind...

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Steve Smith" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: hip hop
Date: 22 Mar 2002 12:23:54 -0500

Oh, I bet Dre's watched 'Ally McBeal' once or twice... ;-)

Steve Smith
[e-mail]
NP - Geirr Tveitt, Hundred Hardanger Tunes Suite No. 5 - RSNO/Engeset
(Naxos)

-----Original Message-----
[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of
[e-mail]

I doubt that Dr. Dre even knows who John Cage is.

-


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: hip hop
Date: 22 Mar 2002 09:34:20 -0800

on 3/22/02 9:23 AM, Steve Smith at [e-mail] wrote:

> Oh, I bet Dre's watched 'Ally McBeal' once or twice... ;-)
>
> Steve Smith
> [e-mail]
> NP - Geirr Tveitt, Hundred Hardanger Tunes Suite No. 5 - RSNO/Engeset
> (Naxos)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail]
> [mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of
> [e-mail]
>
> I doubt that Dr. Dre even knows who John Cage is.
>
> -
>
>
> -
>
Of the two John Cage's, that's the one I prefer myself.

sh


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: flag-waving
Date: 22 Mar 2002 09:40:47 -0800


On Thu, 21 Mar 2002 23:25:24 -0600  Joseph Zitt wrote:
>
> I note that you also find it difficult to conceive of an American
> disagreeing with Donald Rumsfeld or George W. Bush. I think the

And I think he has some good reason to believe that (80% of positive rating
and 95% who believe in god, right?). It is true that the polls do not claim
that Joseph Zitt is behind this administration, but you can excuse outsiders
(read: outside USA) to have some concerns when comparing the arrogant and
bully attitude of this admistration (which seems to equate good for America
with good for the rest of the world) with its amazingly high rating.

If intellectuals were not nitpicking on irrelevant and frivolous issues and
open their mouth, maybe the outsiders would feel that there is some reaction
in this country. Right now they only notice a big silence from the ones who
are supposed to react. Is it only temporary apathy? The rest of the world
hopes so.

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Steve Smith" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: hip Hop
Date: 22 Mar 2002 12:50:01 -0500

Isn't it much more tenable, though, that Jamaican toasting played a pretty
major role in rap's development, especially in the diaspora of the Bronx? I
certainly hear that kind of influence in some of the really fast rapping in
vogue right this minute...

Steve Smith
[e-mail]
NP - Gloria Coates, String Quartet No. 5 - Kreutzer Quartet (Naxos)

-----Original Message-----
[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of skip Heller
Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2002 12:50 PM

The dub connection was, at least in the early period, tenuous at best.
Until "The Message" (1982), most rap records were really about a party
atmosphere.  Probably the most written-about dub LP in this country up to
that point was Linton Kwesi Johnson's FORCES OF VICTORY, which, if the Flash
guys heard it at all, they probably would have heard fr one of the guys in
the Clash, for whom they opened at least one show at Bond's.  I remember Joe
"I'm One of the PEOPLE" Strummer making it a point to get his picture taken
with Melle Mel in some big rock mag.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "s~Z" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Cecil at UCLA
Date: 22 Mar 2002 10:00:25 -0800

"It was left to Cecil Taylor to ravage the countryside. This he
did, skullcapped and white-robed, dancing around the stage like a
deranged monk to dynamo-babble stuff about "subatomic trucks from
the bubble chamber" between extended forays into cultural
condensation on his huge Stealth-like pianoforte. Restructured
flashes of everything from Prokofiev to Scott Joplin sped by in a
whirling trance, profound and inspiring. This man fills you up."

 http://www.laweekly.com/ink/02/18/music-angel.shtml



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jim Flannery <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Ooops!... Britney again!
Date: 22 Mar 2002 10:02:05 -0800

Efr=E9n wrote:

> Are the
> "underground" filmmaker and the Hollywood-puppet the
> same person?!<

Um, yeah they are ... judging by her earlier work (_Billy Madison_,=20

_CB4_, _Gun Crazy_), I'm not sure where the word "underground" comes=20

into it though ... I've never heard of her doing anything more=20

"experimental" than a Bangles video ... what position is she supposed

to be "selling out" from?


--=20
Jim Flannery                                           [e-mail]

np: Carlos Zingaro/Peggy Lee, _Western Front, Vancouver 1999_
nr: John Lanchester, _The Debt to Pleasure_


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: flag-waving
Date: 22 Mar 2002 10:18:47 -0800

on 3/22/02 9:40 AM, Patrice L. Roussel at [e-mail] wrote:

>
> On Thu, 21 Mar 2002 23:25:24 -0600  Joseph Zitt wrote:
>>
>> I note that you also find it difficult to conceive of an American
>> disagreeing with Donald Rumsfeld or George W. Bush. I think the
>
> And I think he has some good reason to believe that (80% of positive rating
> and 95% who believe in god, right?). It is true that the polls do not claim
> that Joseph Zitt is behind this administration, but you can excuse outsiders
> (read: outside USA) to have some concerns when comparing the arrogant and
> bully attitude of this admistration (which seems to equate good for America
> with good for the rest of the world) with its amazingly high rating.
>
> If intellectuals were not nitpicking on irrelevant and frivolous issues and
> open their mouth, maybe the outsiders would feel that there is some reaction
> in this country. Right now they only notice a big silence from the ones who
> are supposed to react. Is it only temporary apathy? The rest of the world
> hopes so.
>
> Patrice.
>

I don't know that intellectuals speaking out has ever solved anything --
were it only that simple.  During the Vietnam era, the perception of the US
citizenry -- such as it could be viewed by those in the international
elsewhere -- was definitely that our rank-and-file citizenry were far more
motivated to say something publicly about the decisions our leadership made
and how they were being implemented.  That it looked interesting on the news
didn;t hurt, either.  Bunch of weird-lookin' young people gathered in one
place is always a good start.  If there can be a riot, even better.

Now, those events have been replaced by TV news stories -- little "human
interest" items" -- about the 90 year old woman with a flag on the antenna
of her car.

The intellectual community has rarely spoken for the interests of the
blue-collar community, and the blue-collar community forms the bulk of this
democracy.  That they don't have control of things is another matter
entirely.  But I don't think their collective attitudes are represented by
the intellectual community, or "those who are supposed to react".  And, when
you think about it, "those who are supposed to react" have never been held
up as the people we wanna show to the rest of the world.  Think about this
-- the USA is probably the only major country without a Minister Of Culture.
We're not holding up Elliot Carter or Sonny Rollins as the ambassadors of
our best kind of thinking.  We send out Garth Brooks.  If he typifies the
culture (and, to most Americans, he does), what makes you think the
leadership of this country isn't similarly Garth-tastic? Show me a guy in a
leadership in this country that you would call "the Eliot Carter of American
statesmen" at this time.

I doubt that Jospeh Zitt owns any Garth Brooks records.  I would also doubt
that he's read THE BRIDGES OF MADISON COUNTY.  I hold neither of these
things against him, and neither do you.  I don't think any of us on this
list are really in a poisition to speak on behalf of our neighbors.  We're
the weird guys.  The normal folks are putting flag decals on their
windshields and getting behind the administration (and are not all-the-way
informed about what they're endorsing).  And these are the people who are on
the news when they want a "man on the street" soundbyte.  When they get
college professors or political analysts for commentary, you usually see
something really boring.  And nobody from the news media seems intent on
getting Chuck D, Jello Biafra, or -- on the extreme other side -- Ted Nugent
to go into depth on camera about this stuff.

Why is this? Look at who owns our biggest media outlets.  These are the
richest, old boy network fat cats in history.  These are the guys who
contributed insane amounts of money to getting the W elected.  They also run
companies like AOL and Clear Channel.  They bring you the Shania Twain's of
the world.   They're not going to give Michael Moore international airtime.

skip h


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: hip Hop
Date: 22 Mar 2002 10:19:51 -0800

on 3/22/02 9:50 AM, Steve Smith at [e-mail] wrote:

> Isn't it much more tenable, though, that Jamaican toasting played a pretty
> major role in rap's development, especially in the diaspora of the Bronx? I
> certainly hear that kind of influence in some of the really fast rapping in
> vogue right this minute...
>
> Steve Smith
> [e-mail]
> NP - Gloria Coates, String Quartet No. 5 - Kreutzer Quartet (Naxos)

I agree to a point, but I think the really fast stuff is influenced by
something later -- dancehall.

sh


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Efr=E9n=20del=20Valle?= <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fwd: Re: Ooops!... Britney again!
Date: 22 Mar 2002 19:20:31 +0100 (CET)

My suspicions on Tamra Davis come from a Spanish book
on Sonic Youth that defines her as an experimental
filmmaker and video director. I just wanted to confirm
the newspapers and me were talking about the same
person that directed SYÆs ôBull in the Heatherö video
and BritneyÆs first theatrical effort. ItÆs curious,
to say the least.
>
> EfrΘn wrote:
>
> > Are the
> > "underground" filmmaker and the Hollywood-puppet
> the
> > same person?!<
>
> Um, yeah they are ... judging by her earlier work
> (_Billy Madison_,
>
> _CB4_, _Gun Crazy_), I'm not sure where the word
> "underground" comes
>
> into it though ... I've never heard of her doing
> anything more
>
> "experimental" than a Bangles video ... what
> position is she supposed
>
> to be "selling out" from?
>
>
> --
>
> Jim Flannery
>   [e-mail]
>
> np: Carlos Zingaro/Peggy Lee, _Western Front,
> Vancouver 1999_
> nr: John Lanchester, _The Debt to Pleasure_
>
>
> -
>

_______________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Messenger
Comunicaci≤n instantßnea gratis con tu gente.
http://messenger.yahoo.es

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Steve Smith" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Willie Nels(on) Cline
Date: 22 Mar 2002 13:18:33 -0500

A most delightful thing coming up at Tonic that I couldn't help sharing...

--Fri, Apr 19--
* Carla Bozulich & Friends Play Willie Nelson's Red Headed Stranger at 8pm,
$10
Nels Cline will be backing Carla up on guitar and lap steel with his new
trio,
The Nels Cline Singers. Both Carla and Nels are members of The (long
sleeping)
Geraldine Fibbers. Performance of this classic Willie Nelson album is a
heartfelt compulsion. The new arrangements you'll hear at this concert
reflect
possible risks and variations inspired by the free spirit of the original
album.

* The Nels Cline Singers at 10pm, $10
With Nels Cline (guitar), Scott Amendola (drums) and Devin Hoff (upright
bass).
Cline calls his new trio The Nels Cline Singers even though there are no
singers in the band. Nels displays a mastery of guitar expression that
encompasses delicate lyricism, sonic abstractions, and skull crunching
flights
of fancy, inspiring Jazz Times to call him, "The World's Most Dangerous
Guitarist."

Steve Smith
[e-mail]
NP - G. Brent Fariss, Piano Sonata No. 2 - G. Brent Fariss (Spectral House)


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "DJ Steve" <[e-mail]>
Subject: John Patton RIP ( Zorn content)
Date: 22 Mar 2002 13:23:40 -0500

Big John Patton passed away Tuesday 3/19/02, may he rest in peace.  Here's
a bio I wrote a while back...( By Gilles Bacon)

John Patton was born in 1935 in Kansas City, Missouri. His mother played
piano in local churches and social groups, but he says he's mostly
self-taught, picking up the instrument at the age of 12. John had planned
to attend Howard University, and was working in a service station and
sitting in at clubs when he auditioned for Lloyd Price. John stayed with
Lloyd for almost 6 years, becoming the musical director and de facto band
manager. He wrote several songs for Lloyd, and recorded some 10 albums
during that time, which also saw him touring the US and Australia. John
says he'd fool around with any organ that would happen to be in a club, but
he didn't switch until later.

In the summer of 1961, John moved to New York City because he wanted to
play Jazz. He got a room at the Flanders Hotel on 47th Street which was a
musician's hangout. There were often jam sessions in someone's room, and he
got to know many musicians that way. Thanks to Luther Dixon who worked with
Lloyd Price, John got a job at Sceptre Records capitalizing on his talents
as a songwriter. Among other tunes, he wrote "Wedding Day" performed by The
Shirelles.

During this time, John played around town at clubs like Brankers, Basie's,
Minton's, The Barron, The Red Rooster, The 5 Spot, Shalimar, and at the New
York World's Fair. He played with musicians like Calvin Newborn, Donald
Byrd, Ben Dixon, Babs Gonzales, Harold Vick and Grant Green. Later on, he
also became friends with Clifford Jarvis and sat in with the Sun Ra band
several times.

He also met Herman Greene (of Lionel Hampton's band) while playing the
strip in Asbury Park. It was Greene who, along with Ben Dixon, persuaded
John to switch to the organ. He got a chance to play exclusively the organ
with Greene, and decided to go with it. Grant Green, who was working with
Gloria Coleman at the time, told Lou about John and invited him over to
Blue Note. That was the start of a 10 year stay with the label.

1963 was John's most prolific year, as he recorded 9 albums: 2 as a leader
(although Blue John was only released in 1986), 2 with Lou Donaldson, and 1
each with Grant Green, Johnny Griffin & Mathew Gee, Red Holloway, Harold
Vick, and Don Wilkerson. In fact, John, Green and Ben Dixon formed Blue
Note's strongest rhythm section in the Soul-Jazz vein, backing artists like
Donaldson, Vick, Wilkerson, George Braith, as well as playing on John's and
Green's own albums as leaders. John went on to record 10 more albums as a
leader for Blue Note, including the classics The Way I Feel with Fred
Jackson and Let 'Em Roll with Bobby Hutcherson both with Green and Dixon,
and his most daring Understanding with Harold Alexander and Hugh Walker.

Blue Note not only issued for the first time Blue John in 1986, but in the
last two years have issued 2 of John's shelved projects, Boogaloo also with
Alexander and George Edward Brown on drums, and more recently Memphis to
New York Spirit with Marvin Cabell and James Ulmer. Among the many
musicians John has played with, his two most memorable associations were
with Alexander, and with Pharoah Sanders during a tour of Austria with
Betty Carter in the late 60's.

Unfortunately, the death of Alfred Lion and the drastic changes at Blue
Note from its purchase by United Artists, along with the "death" of the B-3
organ and birth of cheap synthesizers, forced John out of the recording
industry. Aside from 5 sessions as a sideman with Johnny Lytle, Jimmy
Ponder and John Zorn, John only recorded one album as a leader during the
70's and 80's, Soul Connection, with Grachan Moncur III, Melvin Sparks,
Grant Reed and Alvin Queen.

In the 90's however, with the resurrection of the Hammond B-3 organ, John's
career is picking up again. On top of the 2 recently released Blue Note
sessions from the 60's, he recorded two new albums. Blue Planet Man is
mostly new material played in a sextet with John Zorn, Bill Saxton, Pete
Chavez, Ed Cherry, Eddie Gladden, with Lawrence Killian and Rorie Nichols
adding some color with the congas and vocals on one track. This album,
produced by John's wife Thelma, was recently issued domestically by
Evidence.

DIW released Minor Swing, re-recordings of John's tunes from the 60's in a
quartet setting with John Zorn, Ed Cherry and Kenny Wolleson. This album
(produced in an elegant packaging like a miniature record with folding
sleeve), while not yet available domestically, has gotten excellent reviews
and is widely available as an import. The band opened up for Medeski Martin
& Wood four nights in a row in November 1995! DIW also recorded John doing
new material with Dave Hubbard, Ed Cherry, Eddie Gladden and Lawrence
Killian. This One's For Ja was Patton's last release

On a last note, while John's songwriting credits may come as a surprise to
some fans of his organ playing, it will probably surprise most people to
know that he has also coached musicians, most recently and notably,
Cassandra Wilson.






-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Ooops!... Britney again!
Date: 22 Mar 2002 10:29:42 -0800

on 3/22/02 10:02 AM, Jim Flannery at [e-mail] wrote:

> Efr=E9n wrote:
>=20
>> Are the
>> "underground" filmmaker and the Hollywood-puppet the
>> same person?!<
>=20
> Um, yeah they are ... judging by her earlier work (_Billy Madison_,
>=20
> _CB4_, _Gun Crazy_), I'm not sure where the word "underground" comes
>=20
> into it though ... I've never heard of her doing anything more
>=20
> "experimental" than a Bangles video ... what position is she supposed
>=20
> to be "selling out" from?
>=20

the underground filmmaker is generally struggling hard for the right to be =
a
Hollywood puppet.  You think these guys like making movies on a budget that
is slightly less than what the trailer for a Spielberg movie costs?

skip h


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: How Come?
Date: 22 Mar 2002 13:28:44 -0600

On Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 02:10:14AM -0800, john schuller wrote:
> Wow. This is more fun than a chatroom now. You are a knob of which I do not
> care to spend much more time with. Do you even have an opinion? Or are you
> here to question every sentence typed? I truly think you are a sad sad
> person in need of some serious outside activity. I really do.

A "knob"?

> You cannot sense sarcasm.

Except when expressed effectively. (And, as anyone who has been online
awhile knows, email, without the additional channels of communication
available through live speech, such as facial expressions, is
specifically ill-suited to sarcasm.)

As for the other supposed points, I see that you are set in your
dogmatism, and that no amount of explanation will have any effect
other that spawning your further flights of nonsense. I suggest
Remedial Reading, less caffeine, and maybe even meeting people other
than yourself.

> 1. I never complained about "Political Correctness".
> 2. Religion is a trivial matter. I do not see it's relevance to whether or
> not the music is good. I can't wait to try some good Muslim food. How about
> that new Christian Car? Have you checked out that Jehovah Witness Stereo?
> 3. Women have issues. Men have issues. Whites have issues. Blacks have
> issues. Welcome to life. I think you have the most issues.
> 4. Religion is a lifestyle choice. I was born a European-American Male. Not
> my choice. I am an atheist. My choice. My cousin was born a Europan-American
> male. Not his choice. He is Mormon. His choice.
> 5. I believe in equality among men, women and all races and ethnicities. I
> guess that makes me bad in your eyes.
>
> John Schuller
>
> Who is done with Mr. Zitt.
>
>
> >From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
> >To: john schuller <[e-mail]>
> >CC: [e-mail]
> >Subject: Re: How Come?
> >Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 21:05:26 -0600
> >
> >On Thu, Mar 21, 2002 at 05:23:29PM -0800, john schuller wrote:
> >
> > > >In what way are you incapable of seeing this?
> > >
> > > Explain your view of how that is complaining about Political Correctness
> >and
> > > I will see the way the I am currently incapable of seeing this. Do it. I
> > > dare ya.
> >
> >Explain to me how you are not seeing it, and I will fill in the gap.
> >
> > > Because the marketing of those projects promotes seperation. People
> >hanging
> > > out with others of like backgrounds etc. just promotes people hanging
> >out.
> >
> >Again: you find some unstated problem with people creating projects
> >(which, of course, are inextricable from that to which I am guessing
> >that you refer by the term "marketing") based on that which they find
> >that they have in common with some others. If you do not find this to
> >be a problem, then explain why you approve of other projects that can
> >safely be predicted not to be of interest to any other subset of the
> >world population.
> >
> > > Not "Look at me, I am different because I was born with different
> > > genetalia"...
> >
> >If you consider women's issues to be a simple matter of "genitalia",
> >you demonstrate your further incomprehension of the lives of people
> >other than yourself.
> >
> > > > > How? I don't dislike the recording projects. I dislike that they are
> > > > > marketed the way they are.
> > > >
> > > >How are you drawing this distinction?
> > >
> > > Here is our "People with Vagina" series. Etc. Etc.
> >
> >Again: how are you drawing the difference between the recording and
> >marketing of the Radical Jewish Culture series? With the possible exception
> >of the Great Jewish Composers trilogy (which I suspect is the joker in the
> >deck), the other items in the series are particularly relevant to Jewish
> >culture, and were primarily created expressly for that series.
> >
> >Your repeated issue with "genetalia" (sic) and "Vagina" is best left
> >as a matter for your therapist.
> >
> > > >Yet you find it, and not the others, as a valid parameter for
> > > >aggregation. I ask again: why?
> > >
> > > It is valid just because all it is a geographical spot. In different
> > > countries the music can be very different from others. Sort of like how
> > > people with penises make different music than those with vaginas. They
> > > should all be in seperate a seperate Music Series.
> >
> >Unfortunately, possibly as a result of the displayed psychosexual issues,
> >the above paragraph has lost even syntactical coherence. Try again?
> >
> > > >Thus confirming the earlier suggestion that you are unfamiliar with
> > > >more than a trivial concept of religious belief and practice.
> > >
> > > That is because religion is a lifestyle choice that I have ZERO interest
> >in.
> > > It is a life style that is not for me. To me- all religious practices
> >and
> > > belief are trivial.
> >
> >"trivial"... "ZERO interest"... yet you repeatedly and vociferously
> >condemn its expression in art. Curious.
> >
> >That you project your lack of interest in it into a demand that you
> >place on others fits snugly into the arrogant solipsism which you have
> >revealed so far.
> >
> >--
> >| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
> >| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
> >|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
> >| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
> >| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |
> >
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
> http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
>

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Steve Smith" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: [berne] scifri .nzc.
Date: 22 Mar 2002 13:36:39 -0500

Thanks, Jason, for the succinct and insightful view of the new Berne, which
I've yet to hear apart from the MP3s available on the website. This one's
certainly on my shopping list now (but then, that's kind of a given...).

Steve Smith
[e-mail]
NP - G. Brent Fariss, Piano Sonata No. 2 - G. Brent Fariss (Spectral House)


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: flag-waving
Date: 22 Mar 2002 10:38:53 -0800


On Fri, 22 Mar 2002 10:18:47 -0800  skip Heller wrote:
>
> I don't know that intellectuals speaking out has ever solved anything --
> were it only that simple.  During the Vietnam era, the perception of the US
> citizenry -- such as it could be viewed by those in the international
> elsewhere -- was definitely that our rank-and-file citizenry were far more
> motivated to say something publicly about the decisions our leadership made
> and how they were being implemented.  That it looked interesting on the news
> didn;t hurt, either.  Bunch of weird-lookin' young people gathered in one
> place is always a good start.  If there can be a riot, even better.

In fact I was not really thinking about the minority of true intellectuals
(although I would feel better if they were more outspoken -- assuming they
care). The real tragedy (but I am a pessimistic person by nature) right now
is that even among the liberals, there is very little reaction (and US is
still 50/50 as far as the main two parties, right?). And if the rest of the
world believes that US is one behind its leader, they have good reasons to do
so. If Americans were paying a little attention to what is happening in the
rest of the world (on which a good part of their wealth is based), they would
be surprised. Before September 11, there was a growing concern that US was
becoming a problem (for peace, for economic stability, for environment, etc).
After the tragic event, these concerns were overshadowed by US (fairly) well
accepted answer to the tragedy. But many indicators seem to indicate that the
honeymoon is over. More and more people in this world are starting again to
feel that the main problem right now is US, as represented by the Bush admi-
nistration. And the silence of the opposition is quite disturbing (maybe
trying to recover from 8 years of easy life and hangover with Clinton).

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Kurt Gottschalk" <[e-mail]>
Subject: our long national nightmare is over
Date: 22 Mar 2002 18:47:28 +0000

just got this in the mail at the paper here.

"Just think of a single product able to stop scratches, fingerprints and
smudge marks from damaging your CDs. DVDs and CD-ROMs, by taking the worry
out of how carefully you try to handle them by hand. It's called the CD-LIFT
and it enables you to pick up your CDs without your fingers even touching
the CD surface. The CD-LIFT works by a gentle vacuum suction that allows you
to lift and transport your CDs from the CD case to the PC drive or CD player
and vice versa, thereby avoiding the manual touch-and-grab way CDs are
usually handled."

essentially, it's a suction cup that you can use to take the cd out of the
case. available in grass green, raspberry, ocean blue, sunflower, purple
grape and walnut, for a mere $12.95.

ok, single-file please, no pushing.

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "john schuller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: How Come?
Date: 22 Mar 2002 10:55:46 -0800


>A "knob"?
>
> > You cannot sense sarcasm.
>
>Except when expressed effectively. (And, as anyone who has been online
>awhile knows, email, without the additional channels of communication
>available through live speech, such as facial expressions, is
>specifically ill-suited to sarcasm.)

That would lead me to think then, that someone of your intellect needs
smiley faces :) after each piece of sarcasm?

>
>As for the other supposed points, I see that you are set in your
>dogmatism, and that no amount of explanation will have any effect
>other that spawning your further flights of nonsense. I suggest
>Remedial Reading, less caffeine, and maybe even meeting people other
>than yourself.

I have to ask where this misconception comes from? Is this some way to say
perhaps that if someone is illiterate, enjoys caffeine and agoraphobic that
they are less then human? That they are less than you?

And please explain to me how religion is not a choice? Explain how it is
something you are born as such as Race or Gender. I don't think you can and
that is why you avoid the issue. If you can, then I will believe that you
are the intellect you use the internet arena to pretend that you are.

_________________________________________________________________
Join the worldÆs largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
http://www.hotmail.com


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Mark Saleski <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: flag-waving
Date: 22 Mar 2002 14:02:21 -0500


skip wrote:


>I don't know that intellectuals speaking out has ever solved anything --
>were it only that simple.


in this country, intellectuals aren't allowed to speak out unless
they're conservative. everyone else is tarred with the "liberal elite"
label. dissent is certainly shouted down as being un-patriotic. it's a
sad thing.

>Now, those events have been replaced by TV news stories -- little "human
>interest" items" -- about the 90 year old woman with a flag on the antenna
>of her car.

now the whole flag phenomenon...i've never been comfortable with the whole flag-waving-america-love-it-or-leave-it-you-commie-bastard thing. after september 11 tons and tons of american flags showed up on houses in every us location. i even put one up on my house. why? mostly as a tribute lost lives. i have more ambivalent feelings about the war. the pressure here is to get behind the government because, of course, it's doing the right thing? well is it? how the hell would we know? as skip points out, because of corporate ownership of all of the major media outlets, you're getting only part of the story. i became concerned with loss of civilian life over there. there were a few (very few) stories about this over here...much more in europe (at least in the websites is was checking out).

so in my mind the issues are pretty complicated. from looking at the polling numbers, most folks are indeed behind our government's actions. i'm not sure what exactly that means.

oh...i don't own any garth brooks records....but i do have a couple of shania twain cds...

mark

--
Mark Saleski - [e-mail] | http://www.foliage.com/~marks
"Music is spiritual. The music business is not." - Van Morrison



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: duncan youngerman <[e-mail]>
Subject: flag-waving and anti-heroes
Date: 22 Mar 2002 20:00:54 +0100

Il s'agit d'un message multivolet au format MIME.
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Reply-To: [e-mail]
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [fr] (Macintosh; I; PPC)
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>
> We're not holding up Elliot Carter or Sonny Rollins as the ambassadors of
> our best kind of thinking.  We send out Garth Brooks.

I don't know how to break the news, skip, but Garth Brooks is litterally unknown
outside the US.
Country music in my experience is almost strictly an internal U.S.consumption
thing.
It's people such as Lou Reed, Mink DeVille or Tom Waits who are big respectable
stuff in Europe (perenial sucker for "anti-heroes", preferably junkies and
dressed in black).
D.


>


--------------12610FFEF9A525B98566E646--


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: flag-waving, packaging and martyrdom
Date: 22 Mar 2002 14:01:35 -0600

On Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 12:31:57PM +0100, duncan youngerman wrote:

> > > > If not, why would you not celebrate cultural variety?
> > >
> > > Celebrate it in your work, or in your life.
> >
> > Yet you protest Zorn, et al, doing exactly that. Do you see the
> > contradiction?
>
> The music has never been the issue. The packaging, yes. Packaging can be important.

As explained in other messages, and can be seen from examining the content of the series, the music and the packaging are inextricable.

> Wagner's packaging offends many and all too often obscures the remarkable and universal
> qualities of his music.

Universal qualities? I find Wagner boring as hell. But the Marvel
comics series based on the Ring cycle rocked.

> > > Just don't wave a flag about it.
> > > The problem here is flags (very popular right now in the U.S., I understand)
> >
> > The problem here is that you misperceive the issue as being about
> > "flags".
>
> Come on, you know perfectly well what is meant here: proselitism, clanic thinking,"Us"
> vs."Them", "the N.Y. Mets kick the Miami Dolphins' asses", not so innocuous when
> connected to religion or race (as you pointed out, this is better understood in Europe
> for obvious reasons) and placed just a little bit outside of rarified cosmopolitan
> intellectual circles.

The problem is grouping all this together into a single generalisation.

> If there is only one God, then he also made the Quakers and the Hindus and the
> atheists, so why not just leave it at that and come off of our little pedestals and
> cubicles, embrace one another, stop bickering or boasting about "Our" Shiny City on the
> Hill or "Our" Chosen People.

I think every one agrees that, if there is a deity who created people,
that deity created all. However, each religion questions the
perceptions of that deity (sometimes perceived in the plural) by
others. Most, however, agree to co-exist in most cases.

May I guess from your writing that you do not, yourself, believe in a
deity, yet have the audacity to demand how those who do should believe
and behave? As the saying goes, "If you don't play the game, you don't
make the rules."

> Why do you need to paint anybody who questions or criticizes your viewpoint as an
> antisemite?

That is a misperception. When you go back and actually read what was
written, what I challenged was your statement calling the RJC series
distateful specifically because of the actions of the current
administration of Israel. Do you now deny saying that, or retract the
statement?

> > > I do believe in strict separation of State and Church. But Israel being a
> > > religious state (like the Vatican or Saudi Arabia), I don't see how one could
> > > conveniantly perform the separation.
> >
> > Do you understand that not all Jews support the actions of the current
> > Israeli government, and some do not even recognize the government, or
> > even the existence of the state of Israel in the first place, as
> > valid?
> >
> > To assume that every Jew agrees with every action of the government of
> > Israel is precisely the same as assuming that every Christian (yes,
> > including Russian Orthodox and Protestant) agrees with every action of
> > the Vatican or that every Muslim agreed with every action of the
> > Taliban. Or perhaps, for that matter, that every atheist agrees with
> > every action of People's Republic of China.
>
> I find "radical atheists" narrow-minded, and the crimes of Stalin, Hitler, Mao and Pol
> Pot would forever prevent me from claiming to be a "Radical Atheist".

This, however, evades the point of the statement above.

> However, Rumsfeld and W. do share your problem of not understanding why some people
> find certain wordings unnecessarily provocative, like "Crusade", "Evil", "Zionist",
> "Radical Jewish", etc.

I understand why you find "Radical Jewish" "provocative": it is
because of a simple misperception of Judaism.

> > I think the problem is that you have, mistakenly and far too easily, mapped the
> > statements and actions of people who happen to be in office at a given
> > time onto the supposed thoughts of all those who ostensibly are in
> > their jurisdiction. (And even in that, your perception of the
> > jurisdiction of the Israeli government is phenomenally inaccurate.)
>
> > Do you agree with every statement and action of every official in France? If not, why
> > do you assume this of others?
>
> When France collaborated with and covered up the genocide of the Tutsis in Rwanda
> (1994), I did'nt go around waving a French flag.
> Even less a Radical Hutu one.

Then why do you refuse to understand that many Jews disagree with and
protest the actions of the current Israeli administrations?

And why do you refuse to recognize that the actions of that
administration are not identical to Judaism?

> > To quote Daniel Pearl, "I am a Jew. My mother and father are Jews."
>
> Daniel Pearl was murdered by people who define themselves as "radical muslims".
> That's just the problem I have with the self-definition as "radical", radicalism as a
> whole, and religious or ethnic fervor in general.
> You don't have to remind me that many religious or ethnic radicals are peace-loving. It
> does'nt change the problematic connection.

To change the "problematic connection", you must open your mind to the
fact that the word "radical" has wider meanings than the single one
that you impose upon it.

> In fact, where are the mass demonstrations of Muslims against Osama Bin Laden, of Jews
> against Sharon or the settlers, Catholics and Protestants against Irish terrorism and
> for reconciliation? The smallest local soccer game gets more crowds than all of the
> above in a decade.

Do you understand that there are more effective ways of protesting
than standing around in a street shouting? Are you capable of
understanding the difference between activism and soccer? (Oh, right,
you generalize them both into the rigid "Us vs. Them" paradigm.)

> To imply that I would have expected you to apologize for something is to put me falsely
> in the position of an oppressor which nothing I've written to you justifies.

Reread your messages.

> Your identification with Daniel Pearl during this discussion (what is that supposed to
> make me?) confirms the impression that for you criticism and debate can only be
> connected to martyrdom or not be.

That is a truly odd viewpoint to inject into the discussion.

> I have no problem saying that I respect your approach to culture, art and religion, and
> in fact that I've learned some things from some of your answers.
> I hope you've come to at least seeing how and why one can think like I (and several
> others) do.

I have seen what you think, and where it might come from, and, I hope,
helped in debugging it.

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Steve Smith" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Coltrane Gold Collection
Date: 22 Mar 2002 14:12:30 -0500

Zach:

That 'Love Supreme' pretty much has to be the radio broadcast of the
performance from the Juan-Les-Pins Jazz Festival on July 26, 1965. I'm
reasonably sure that's the only live 'Love Supreme' in wide circulation.
It's been issued by numerous labels, and the sound quality is so good
because it's from a radio broadcast.

If it's performed by the classic Coltrane quartet, the "Spiritual" tacked on
at the end is most likely from the Koncerthuset in Stockholm, Sweden,
October 22, 1963. It's been issued widely by pirates and also officially by
Pablo, and it actually appears to be the only time Coltrane played the tune
live aside from the Village Vanguard sessions with the expanded band. (But
I've learned through hard experience to never say never...)

All data culled from David Wild's "Wildspace," at
http://home.att.net/~dawild/. It's still the best resource out there for
Coltrane discographical information. He doesn't list the disc you've got,
but you know how these live things get copied over and over... (One note:
when you look at this site, try to make sure you're using Microsoft Explorer
[yecchh] - it doesn't look right in Netscape.)

Steve Smith
[e-mail]
NP - Stan Kenton, "Two Guitars," 'Balboa Bash' (Naxos)


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: flag-waving and anti-heroes
Date: 22 Mar 2002 11:19:26 -0800

on 3/22/02 11:00 AM, duncan youngerman at [e-mail] wrote:

>
>>
>> We're not holding up Elliot Carter or Sonny Rollins as the ambassadors of
>> our best kind of thinking.  We send out Garth Brooks.
>
> I don't know how to break the news, skip, but Garth Brooks is litterally
> unknown
> outside the US.
> Country music in my experience is almost strictly an internal U.S.consumption
> thing.
> It's people such as Lou Reed, Mink DeVille or Tom Waits who are big
> respectable
> stuff in Europe (perenial sucker for "anti-heroes", preferably junkies and
> dressed in black).
> D.
>
I'm not referring to what the Europeans choose to consume.  I'm talking
about the cultural/consumer choices that Americans make.  I could have used
"John Wayne" as a similar icon, but this being a music list.

Incidentally, if the French charts are to be believed, Neil Diamond and
madonna are our chief cultural exports to that country.

skip h


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Steve Smith" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: How Come?
Date: 22 Mar 2002 14:14:34 -0500

Hey! No fair! You promised that you were "done" with Zitt.

;-)

Steve Smith
[e-mail]
NP - Stan Kenton, "Blues in Asia Minor," 'Balboa Bash' (Naxos)

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "john schuller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: How Come?
Date: 22 Mar 2002 11:22:57 -0800

That was the encore. :0




>From: "Steve Smith" <[e-mail]>
>Reply-To: <[e-mail]>
>To: "'john schuller'" <[e-mail]>,
><[e-mail]>
>CC: <[e-mail]>
>Subject: RE: How Come?
>Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 14:14:34 -0500
>
>Hey! No fair! You promised that you were "done" with Zitt.
>
>;-)
>
>Steve Smith
>[e-mail]
>NP - Stan Kenton, "Blues in Asia Minor," 'Balboa Bash' (Naxos)


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: original non-remastered cd's, Was: Re: eno & remastering
Date: 18 Mar 2002 23:49:27 -0800

on 3/18/02 2:39 AM, Remco Takken at [e-mail] wrote:

> On the 'old' Kind of Blue cd, there's almost no hiss, and the sound is
> really warm. However, the de-noiser studio system was used so extensively,
> that even Jimmy Cobb's brushes were removed from one track. I have no idea
> if they were considered as 'hiss', or that this Dolby machine decided to
> cancel that sound.

With systems like Sonic Solutions, the way to cancel out noise relies
largely on the system being able to recognize noise.  Often, the engineer
will run about three seconds of hiss from the source tape so the system can
learn the undesirable sound, and the system recognizes that sound at that
frequency as undesirable and as such cancels it.  Unfortunately, drum
brushes on a jazz ballad have really similar charactaristics as hiss.

skip h

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Efr=E9n=20del=20Valle?= <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fwd: Re: knocking on the floodgates
Date: 22 Mar 2002 17:49:12 +0100 (CET)

k8 wrote:
> any old Sonic Youth album

Sorry, but ANY Sonic Youth album, I'd say, except for
maybe A thousand Leaves. "Experimental Jet Set Trash
and No Stars" is one of the most innovative rock
albums I ever heard. And, like it or not, "NY Ghosts &
Flowers" is one more step in SY's unstoppable
evolution.

Call me fanatic... ;-)

Best,

EfrΘn del Valle

_______________________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Messenger
Comunicaci≤n instantßnea gratis con tu gente.
http://messenger.yahoo.es





-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: knocking on the floodgates
Date: 22 Mar 2002 12:09:17 EST


In a message dated 03.22.02 11.49.17, [e-mail] writes:

>Sorry, but ANY Sonic Youth album, I'd say, except for
>maybe A thousand Leaves. "Experimental Jet Set Trash
>and No Stars" is one of the most innovative rock
>albums I ever heard. And, like it or not, "NY Ghosts &
>Flowers" is one more step in SY's unstoppable
>evolution.

i can dig on that.  i was actually thinking directly of '...leaves' when i
made the qualifier for not all sonic youth...  and maybe 'dirty'...

k



---
[.n0thing.is.what.is.sAid.]
k a t e  p e t e r s o n
c o m p o s e r / p e r f o r m e r

http://www.geocities.com/uforbk8/kate.html
http://www.icefoundation.org (roundtable)





-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: flag-waving
Date: 22 Mar 2002 14:16:43 -0600

On Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 09:40:47AM -0800, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:
>
> On Thu, 21 Mar 2002 23:25:24 -0600  Joseph Zitt wrote:
> >
> > I note that you also find it difficult to conceive of an American
> > disagreeing with Donald Rumsfeld or George W. Bush. I think the
>
> And I think he has some good reason to believe that (80% of positive rating
> and 95% who believe in god, right?).

Uh, are you suggesting that someone believes that Rumsfeld==God? If not, what are you saying?

> It is true that the polls do not claim
> that Joseph Zitt is behind this administration, but you can excuse outsiders
> (read: outside USA) to have some concerns when comparing the arrogant and
> bully attitude of this admistration (which seems to equate good for America
> with good for the rest of the world) with its amazingly high rating.

But when you take more than a trivial look beyond the surface
headlines, you will see a lot more dissent that you might
expect. Note, for example, in the current scandal which, many hope,
will bring down the current US admistration (which many believe was
not appropriately elected anyway), only 17% of Americans believe that
Bush et al are telling the whole truth about Enron. This is far from
the image of monolithic dullards that some like to project as a
stereotype.

> If intellectuals were not nitpicking on irrelevant and frivolous issues and
> open their mouth, maybe the outsiders would feel that there is some reaction
> in this country. Right now they only notice a big silence from the ones who
> are supposed to react. Is it only temporary apathy?

"nitpicking"? "irrelevant"? "frivolous"? To what might these refer? I
see no context in the current conversation.

> The rest of the world  hopes so.

Ah, does this indicate a similar projection of monolithic-mindedness
upon "the rest of the world" to the one that you project upon
Americans?  It would be consistent with the paradigm, I suppose... but
a more than simplistic view of humanity will reveal a thriving
diversity of opinion.

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Zachary Steiner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Joseph Jarman, et al
Date: 22 Mar 2002 14:34:45 -0500

Yesterday I had the pleasure of attending a clinic given by Joseph
Jarman and Robbie Hunsinger at IU.  They then played that night with
Tatsu Aoki and Avreaal Ra.  I was completely blown away by both the
concert and some of the remarks that Jarman made during the clinic.  He
had a very collective perspective on improvisation; where the players
blend into one voice as opposed to the usual one-upmanship of jazz
improvising.  I was also impressed with his view of where the audience
fits into a performance not intended for entertainment.  He believes
that there is a give and take of energy between the players and
audience, so the audience is just as essential as the musicians to the
overall feel of a performance.

The concert itself was amazing.  All the players were contributed to the
overall sound equally, but did not lose their identity in the
collectiveness of the group.  I was actually surprised at how little
Jarman played during the performance and when he did it was either
backing or counterpoint to Hunsinger's playing.  They maintained an
incredible intensity through out the performance with only rarely
approaching a loud and abrasive sound.  I went with friends that had
never heard of any of the players and they were even impressed by the
intensity and power of the music.

Has any one else seen this group perform? Are their recordings
available?

Zach



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: re: hip hop
Date: 22 Mar 2002 14:51:37 EST

maybe I dont get it.  Is there a character named John Cage on Ally McBeal?  I
remember there was an old twilight zone episode with a character named Zorn.

> Oh, I bet Dre's watched 'Ally McBeal' once or twice... ;-)
>
> Steve Smith
> [e-mail]
> NP - Geirr Tveitt, Hundred Hardanger Tunes Suite No. 5 - RSNO/Engeset
> (Naxos)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail]
> [mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of
> [e-mail]
>
> I doubt that Dr. Dre even knows who John Cage is.
>
> -
>
>
> -
>
Of the two John Cage's, that's the one I prefer myself.

sh



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: knocking on the floodgates
Date: 22 Mar 2002 11:54:44 -0800

gee, nobody's mentioned REVOLVER here.  That's still, for me, the
rock'n'roll album that stands head and shoulders above 'em all for pure
invention and re-invention.

skip h


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: flag-waving
Date: 22 Mar 2002 14:56:39 -0600

On Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 10:18:47AM -0800, skip Heller wrote:

> Show me a guy in a
> leadership in this country that you would call "the Eliot Carter of American
> statesmen" at this time.

Hmm, someone who says several conflicting and difficult things at
once, but everyone agrees he's profound? :-)

(I actually do like some Elliott Carter...)

> I doubt that Jospeh Zitt owns any Garth Brooks records.

Well, I do have a "Chris Gaines" CD single, which I got outa curiosity.

> I would also doubt
> that he's read THE BRIDGES OF MADISON COUNTY.  I hold neither of these
> things against him, and neither do you.  I don't think any of us on this
> list are really in a poisition to speak on behalf of our neighbors.  We're
> the weird guys.  The normal folks are putting flag decals on their
> windshields and getting behind the administration (and are not all-the-way
> informed about what they're endorsing).

Note also that many people who have put up the flags strongly disagree
with the current administration. This is consonant with the idea (only
the first half of which is well known, unfortunately): "My country,
right or wrong: if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set
right." (And no, I haven't put up a flag... and I remain curious about
the strong correlation between vehicles with flags on them and lousy
driving that I consistently saw driving around the country this
winter.)

> And these are the people who are on
> the news when they want a "man on the street" soundbyte.  When they get
> college professors or political analysts for commentary, you usually see
> something really boring.  And nobody from the news media seems intent on
> getting Chuck D, Jello Biafra, or -- on the extreme other side -- Ted Nugent
> to go into depth on camera about this stuff.

BTW, there is a lot of good independent media up at
http://www.indymedia.org/ though it doesn't have a fraction of the
impact of the huge media.

And another problem with our media is that "discussions" of issues on
the news talk shows usually consist of hardliners from each of two
supposedly-equal-powered sides going at each other like psychotic
starved pitbulls.

> Why is this? Look at who owns our biggest media outlets.  These are the
> richest, old boy network fat cats in history.  These are the guys who
> contributed insane amounts of money to getting the W elected.  They also run
> companies like AOL and Clear Channel.  They bring you the Shania Twain's of
> the world.   They're not going to give Michael Moore international airtime.

And this is only getting worse. Between AOL Time Warner,
MS-NBC-GE-Newsweek-WashingtonPost, Viacom-HBO-CBS, and Disney-ABC,
it's getting tight out there.

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: flag-waving
Date: 22 Mar 2002 15:07:58 -0600

On Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 10:38:53AM -0800, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:

> In fact I was not really thinking about the minority of true intellectuals
> (although I would feel better if they were more outspoken -- assuming they
> care).

I would question, however, the efficacy of "intellectuals". Pretty
much by definition, they are sort of outside the realm of action, no?
When they speak out, who listens? Other intellectuals?

When it comes to getting people to notice issues, I question whether a
roomful of intellectuals at typewriters would have the effect of, say,
Don Henley or Bono. (There may be sports figures who are socially
active, but I don't pay much attention to sports.)

> The real tragedy (but I am a pessimistic person by nature) right now
> is that even among the liberals, there is very little reaction (and US is
> still 50/50 as far as the main two parties, right?).

Well, the reason that we're pretty much 50/50 between the parties is
that they differ very little. While most end up voting for one or the
other, opinions usually range wide of those platforms. (Unfortunately,
while 3rd parties seem like a good idea, recent implementations have
been pretty catastrophic, as shown by how Ralph Nader, one hopes
inadvertently, helped get Bush into office.)

> And if the rest of the
> world believes that US is one behind its leader, they have good reasons to do
> so. If Americans were paying a little attention to what is happening in the
> rest of the world (on which a good part of their wealth is based), they would
> be surprised.

Again, the problematic view of monolithic "Americans".

> Before September 11, there was a growing concern that US was
> becoming a problem (for peace, for economic stability, for environment, etc).

What would you consider as effective action against this?

> After the tragic event, these concerns were overshadowed by US (fairly) well
> accepted answer to the tragedy. But many indicators seem to indicate that the
> honeymoon is over. More and more people in this world are starting again to
> feel that the main problem right now is US, as represented by the Bush admi-
> nistration. And the silence of the opposition is quite disturbing (maybe
> trying to recover from 8 years of easy life and hangover with Clinton).

Stay tuned. The opposition is regrouping.

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: flag-waving
Date: 22 Mar 2002 12:20:09 -0800


On Fri, 22 Mar 2002 14:16:43 -0600  Joseph Zitt wrote:
>
> Uh, are you suggesting that someone believes that Rumsfeld==God? If not, what are you saying?

Just two numbers that the rest of the world is looking at with
some puzzlement:

    80% positive rating of W
    95% of Americans who believe in God (according to one of them)

But since I am sure that you will come up with a friend somewhere in
the world who has not seen these numbers, I am expecting a quick
reaction showing how misled I am (since it appears that for you, an
exception (or a few) is enough to destroy a complete picture).

> But when you take more than a trivial look beyond the surface
> headlines, you will see a lot more dissent that you might
> expect. Note, for example, in the current scandal which, many hope,
> will bring down the current US admistration (which many believe was
> not appropriately elected anyway), only 17% of Americans believe that
> Bush et al are telling the whole truth about Enron. This is far from
> the image of monolithic dullards that some like to project as a
> stereotype.

You totally missed my point and in a typical Zitt fashion you tried
to move the problem in your (American-American) backward.

I was talking about GEOPOLITICS. What the rest of the world is seeing
when they turn their eyes and ears toward the USA.

Sorry, but the rest of the world is not keeping track of the all
the details of American politics. But they pay attention when
they see simple indicators like the ones I mentioned above. And
more important, they pay attention to the decisions of the current
administration (Kyoto treaty, ABM treaty, "axle of evil", etc),
allegedly backed by the vast majority of Americans (80%).

Now if you want to put your head in the sand and think that this
is their problem (since the rest of the world does't know, for
example, that Joseph Zitt is not in agreement with this
administration), that's fine. With some luck we will laugh at
that in a couple years.

> > If intellectuals were not nitpicking on irrelevant and frivolous issues and
> > open their mouth, maybe the outsiders would feel that there is some reaction
> > in this country. Right now they only notice a big silence from the ones who
> > are supposed to react. Is it only temporary apathy?
>
> "nitpicking"? "irrelevant"? "frivolous"? To what might these refer? I
> see no context in the current conversation.

I simply expect that when there are serious issues at stake, intellectuals
should put their work on a side and help bringing some light. Am I asking
so much? History has shown them quicker to react. Why have they become
so aphatic?

> > The rest of the world  hopes so.
>
> Ah, does this indicate a similar projection of monolithic-mindedness
> upon "the rest of the world" to the one that you project upon
> Americans?  It would be consistent with the paradigm, I suppose... but
> a more than simplistic view of humanity will reveal a thriving
> diversity of opinion.

The issue is not about diversity of opinions (you pet subject), but
that more and more people in the rest of the world are seriously
questioning the current administration on almost any issue concerning
foreign policy (to say it nicely).

Stop looking at the rest of the world like a pretty map with
different colors and different ethnies. They are definitely all
different but surprisingly, despite their difference, they are
more and more agreeing on one point: that if things keep on going
the way they go, US is likely to become their main problem.

If you want to fool yourself with the rosy feeling that just a minority
of the world is questioning the current American policy, fine. I would
not want to trouble your sleep.

    Patrice (who has been alarmed by the number of friends in France
        who have recently been more and more critical of US
        policies; not talking about the magazines and news).

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: How come?(Radical Jewish Kultur)
Date: 22 Mar 2002 15:17:22 -0600

On Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 02:14:08AM -0800, john schuller wrote:

> You outta check out female genetalia sometime. It's
> nice.

That would be "they", rather than "it", being a plural noun. But I
admit that you would have had trouble looking it up since you can't
spell it correctly.

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "john schuller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: How come?(Radical Jewish Kultur)
Date: 22 Mar 2002 12:40:00 -0800

OK. They nice. (do you need a smiley face?)

Time for you to back up your belief that religion is not a choice. I am
waiting.


>From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
>To: john schuller <[e-mail]>
>CC: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: How come?(Radical Jewish Kultur)
>Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 15:17:22 -0600
>
>On Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 02:14:08AM -0800, john schuller wrote:
>
> > You outta check out female genetalia sometime. It's
> > nice.
>
>That would be "they", rather than "it", being a plural noun. But I
>admit that you would have had trouble looking it up since you can't
>spell it correctly.
>
>--
>| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
>| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
>|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
>| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
>| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |
>


_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: flag-waving
Date: 22 Mar 2002 12:48:49 -0800

on 3/22/02 12:56 PM, Joseph Zitt at [e-mail] wrote:

> On Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 10:18:47AM -0800, skip Heller wrote:
>
>> Show me a guy in a
>> leadership in this country that you would call "the Eliot Carter of American
>> statesmen" at this time.
>
> Hmm, someone who says several conflicting and difficult things at
> once, but everyone agrees he's profound? :-)

Someone who, like him or not, everyone agrees is formidable and a true
thinker.

> Well, I do have a "Chris Gaines" CD single, which I got outa curiosity.

you have some apologizing to do ;-)

skip h


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Steve Smith" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: hip hop
Date: 22 Mar 2002 15:28:03 -0500

You got it, all right.

There was a Zorn on the pilot episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation,
too.

Steve Smith
[e-mail]
NP - Wolfgang Rihm, Jagden und Formen - Ensemble Modern/My (Deutsche
Grammophon)

-----Original Message-----
[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of
[e-mail]

maybe I dont get it.  Is there a character named John Cage on Ally McBeal?
I
remember there was an old twilight zone episode with a character named Zorn.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Steve Smith" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Naxos Jazz [was RE: How Come?]
Date: 22 Mar 2002 15:48:01 -0500

(Changed the subject heading right away, so people looking for a brawl don't
look here... also recopied Skip's private inquiry to the whole list, so that
others might pick up on the series I'm about to tout.)

Skip, to answer your question in specific, the Kenton is very early, so it
sounds essentially like Benny Goodman with more impressionistic harmonies.
It didn't catch my ear too strongly on first listen, but then, it was on in
the background.

However, if you've been curious about the track, I'd strongly urge you to
seek out 'Balboa Bash,' subtitled 'The Complete MacGregor Transcriptions,
Vol. 1.' The sound of the radio acetates is surprisingly good for their age
(this was from 1941, for instance). The radio announcer's voice is an
anachronistic delight from a bygone era, and the music is all uniformly
enjoyable, if not necessarily the stuff on which Kenton's later reputation
rests. And at the Naxos price of $6 or $7, it's an outright steal. There's
also a second volume titled 'Etude for Saxophones.' (The Kentons have been
out in the rest of the world for a couple of years, but are just being
issued here this month.)

I've been enjoying the whole Naxos Jazz Legends series, a line of
single-disc compilations (and in the case of Kenton and Django Reinhardt,
series) of early material, well remastered and attractively priced. The
notes are all at least adequate and sometimes quite good, and the artists
I've collected so far include the abovementioned, plus Coleman Hawkins,
Teddy Wilson, Woody Herman, Stephane Grappelli, Sidney Bechet and Fats
Waller. The box that arrived yesterday included new issues by Kenton, Dizzy
Gillespie, Benny Goodman, Erroll Garner, Bix Beiderbecke, Sarah Vaughan, and
a disc of big band theme songs by Goodman, Basie, Ellington, Herman, Dorsey,
Lunceford... even Xavier Cugat and Eddie Duchin!

Naxos already had my support for new recordings of odd repertoire (like the
Geirr Tveitt and Gloria Coates discs with which I started the morning), a
handful of good new jazz things (like the New York Jazz Collective,
featuring Marty Ehrlich), and a line of exceptionally remastered historical
classical items by the likes of Heifetz, Cortot, Casals, Prokofiev,
Rachmaninoff et al. The new historical jazz series is just one more way in
which they've earned my musical gratitude. (However, a few of their series,
like Duke Ellington and Nat "King" Cole, are not being issued here due to
overly litigious record companies and estates.)

Check out www.naxosusa.com for more details.

Steve Smith
[e-mail]
NP - Wolfgang Rihm, Jagden und Formen - Ensemble Modern/My (Detusche
Grammophon)

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Friday, March 22, 2002 2:26 PM

on 3/22/02 11:14 AM, Steve Smith at [e-mail] wrote:


> Steve Smith
> [e-mail]
> NP - Stan Kenton, "Blues in Asia Minor," 'Balboa Bash' (Naxos)
>
How is that "Blues In Asia Minor"  thing? often read-about, not heard


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Steve Smith" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: flag-waving
Date: 22 Mar 2002 15:53:09 -0500

Chomsky? (Oops, better duck and cover...)

Steve Smith
[e-mail]
(who attended the VH-1 live taping of Chris Gaines's "Behind the Music"
episode...)

-----Original Message-----
[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of skip Heller
Sent: Friday, March 22, 2002 3:49 PM

Someone who, like him or not, everyone agrees is formidable and a true
thinker.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: hip hop
Date: 22 Mar 2002 13:07:48 -0800

on 3/22/02 12:28 PM, Steve Smith at [e-mail] wrote:

> You got it, all right.
>
> There was a Zorn on the pilot episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation,
> too.
>
There was also a child molestor named "Zorn" and a homeless, violent crack
addict named "Roland Kirk" on LAW & ORDER.

skip h


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: flag-waving
Date: 22 Mar 2002 13:09:12 -0800

on 3/22/02 12:53 PM, Steve Smith at [e-mail] wrote:

> Chomsky? (Oops, better duck and cover...)

He'd actually do okay.  he knows show-biz better then most of them eggheads.

skip h


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Opinions on Wolfgang Rihm?
Date: 22 Mar 2002 13:13:29 -0800


On Fri, 22 Mar 2002 15:48:01 -0500  "Steve Smith" wrote:
>
> NP - Wolfgang Rihm, Jagden und Formen - Ensemble Modern/My (Detusche
> Grammophon)

I don't have anything by Rihm. Am I making a mistake? I mean, is Rihm a very
original and unique voice in contemporary music?

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: musique concrete dead???
Date: 22 Mar 2002 13:18:31 -0800


    Caleb,

On Fri, 22 Mar 2002 05:59:06 -0500  "Caleb T. Deupree" wrote:
>
> It is undeniable that Stockhausen's Gesang ended *a* debate that was raging
> in the late 1940s-early 1950s about concrete vs. electronic music.  But if
> there is a *musical* definition of musique concrete instead of just a
> historical one (and I believe there is), the genre is clearly alive and
> well.

Thanks for the recommendations! I should definitely check some of them
out. And yes, your description seem to fit quite well what I understand
to be the spirit of MUSIQUE CONCRETE.

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: florid oratory <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: willie nels(on) cline
Date: 22 Mar 2002 13:26:22 -0800

these folks are about to embark on a nationwide tour, plus a few canadian
shows. the only date i know off the top of my head is

Tucson april 27th with sleepytime Gorilla  Museum.

tourdates can probably be obtained at scottamendola.com
                                       or nelscline.com

--GC


> From: "Steve Smith" <[e-mail]>
> Subject: Willie Nels(on) Cline
>
> A most delightful thing coming up at Tonic that I couldn't help sharing...
>
> - --Fri, Apr 19--
> * Carla Bozulich & Friends Play Willie Nelson's Red Headed Stranger at 8pm,
> $10
> Nels Cline will be backing Carla up on guitar and lap steel with his new
> trio,
> The Nels Cline Singers. Both Carla and Nels are members of The (long
> sleeping)
> Geraldine Fibbers. Performance of this classic Willie Nelson album is a
> heartfelt compulsion. The new arrangements you'll hear at this concert
> reflect
> possible risks and variations inspired by the free spirit of the original
> album.
>
> * The Nels Cline Singers at 10pm, $10
> With Nels Cline (guitar), Scott Amendola (drums) and Devin Hoff (upright
> bass).
> Cline calls his new trio The Nels Cline Singers even though there are no
> singers in the band. Nels displays a mastery of guitar expression that
> encompasses delicate lyricism, sonic abstractions, and skull crunching
> flights
> of fancy, inspiring Jazz Times to call him, "The World's Most Dangerous
> Guitarist."
>


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Naxos Jazz [was RE: How Come?]
Date: 22 Mar 2002 16:27:06 -0500

>I've been enjoying the whole Naxos Jazz Legends series, a line of single-disc compilations

I've especially liked the Bechet disc which is very consistent and has some amazing performances.  The Waller is also quite good though the sound can tend to be a bit spotty.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Naxos Jazz [was RE: How Come?]
Date: 22 Mar 2002 13:29:10 -0800


On Fri, 22 Mar 2002 16:27:06 -0500  [e-mail] wrote:
>
> >I've been enjoying the whole Naxos Jazz Legends series, a line of single-disc compilations
>
> I've especially liked the Bechet disc which is very consistent and has some

Does it feature "The Mooche"?

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Steve Smith" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Opinions on Wolfgang Rihm?
Date: 22 Mar 2002 16:38:46 -0500

I've not heard that much by Rihm, and perhaps even less that really caught
my ear in a major way. I recently missed the U.S. premiere of a new concerto
he wrote for string quartet and orchestra, which was played by the Emerson
Quartet and the Cleveland Orchestra. The Arditti Quartet played it in
Europe, as well. The Cleveland Plain Dealer's reviewer loathed the piece;
some others were more even-handed, but in separate interviews I conducted,
both Gene Drucker from the quartet and Christoph von Dohnanyi (music
director of the Cleveland Orchestra) told me that the piece was, well,
difficult and not very pretty.

That said, I've really been enjoying this new disc of 'Jagden und Formen,' a
roughly hour-long piece for chamber orchestra. It's vivacious and bristling
with energy, and reminds me by turns of Stravinsky's 'Sacre' (without the
tunes, of course), middle period Steve Reich (in the motoric, repeated
rhythm cells), perhaps even Varese hopped up on too much back coffee. The
Ensemble Modern can play the shit out of anything placed in front of them,
naturally, and the scoring for winds is especially pithy. Late in the piece,
a bass guitar is brought in to reinforce the rumble, too.

Interestingly, the notes describe the work as being a perpetually
unfinished, open-form composition, like several of Boulez's scores that he's
constantly retouching and revising. This recording, then, should be
understood as a documentation but not a definitive rendition. The notes are
rather precious, but the packaging is just gorgeous, and given the
unlikeliness of having another recording made, I think you're safe buying
this if you're curious. And I, too, would be curious to hear other opinions
regarding Rihm's work - I know Anne-Sophie Mutter has recorded a violin
concerto I've not heard.

One last note, however - this disc hasn't been released in the US as yet,
and might not make it out here until the fall, when Universal relaunches the
Detusche Grammophon 20/21 series. (I got mine by squealing with anticipation
in a Universal publicist's office...) There are a few other things in that
series that are out in Europe but not here, including a large scale
orchestral work by someone named Boesmans that includes the Belgian
prog-rock band AKA Moon, and also a disc of recent pieces by Peter
Lieberson. Personally, I think such delays in releasing things is just one
more example of why the classical recording industry in this country is in
such relatively bad shape...

Steve Smith
[e-mail]


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Steve Smith" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Naxos Jazz [was RE: How Come?]
Date: 22 Mar 2002 16:40:39 -0500

No.

Steve Smith
[e-mail]

-----Original Message-----
[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Patrice L.
Roussel
Sent: Friday, March 22, 2002 4:29 PM
Cc: [e-mail]; [e-mail]



On Fri, 22 Mar 2002 16:27:06 -0500  [e-mail] wrote:
>
> >I've been enjoying the whole Naxos Jazz Legends series, a line of
single-disc compilations
>
> I've especially liked the Bechet disc which is very consistent and has
some

Does it feature "The Mooche"?

    Patrice.

-


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: How Come?
Date: 22 Mar 2002 17:29:34 -0600

On Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 10:55:46AM -0800, john schuller wrote:

> And please explain to me how religion is not a choice?

Ignoring the insults in the rest of the message, I may be able to
address this issue more clearly.

I think the problem is that people's influences don't fall into a
strict dichotomy in which that which is not genetic is therefore a
simple matter of arbitrary whim. People are raised with environments
containing, yes, backgrounds, influences, and experiences that color
what and who they are, often in very subtle ways. Take, for example,
the issue of language: while one can learn a second language later in
life, it is quite rare that the person can speak the language with
exactly the same fluidity as the language in which the person first
learned to speak. Among the many translators whom I have known and
worked with, it has been close to a hard-and-fast tenet of the
profession that, while they may translate *from* languages learned
later in life, they only translate *into* their original language,
since that is the only one in which they can be sure to have a clear
handle on the nuances.

Religion is a similar issue: whereas a tiny percentage of people,
viewed on a large scale, convert from their original religion to
another, the great majority of people are raised within, and stay
within, a single religious framework, which colours their viewpoint on
much of the rest of life. This might not be as visible within the
contemporary Western world, where this grounding in religion has grown
quite weak, and thus easier to ignore and change. But for those raised
with a strong religious background, it is as hard to completely change
to another religion (barring otherwise cataclysmic
emotional/psychological events) as it is to change one's mother
tongue. And for those who were not raised with one, it is hard to
comprehend, and thus easy to trivialize,

Also at issue was the description of religion as a "lifestyle choice".
What color of shirt one wears is a lifestyle choice. Whether or not one
subscribes to cable TV is a lifestyle choice. The much more deeply
rooted matter of religion is not a lifestyle choice. As far as I am
aware, no one has ever given his life to defend HBO.


--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: flag-waving
Date: 22 Mar 2002 17:32:00 -0600

On Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 12:48:49PM -0800, skip Heller wrote:

> > Well, I do have a "Chris Gaines" CD single, which I got outa curiosity.
>
> you have some apologizing to do ;-)

Mea maxima culpa. But it comes in really handy for blindfold tests :-)

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: our long national nightmare is over
Date: 22 Mar 2002 17:50:16 EST

In a message dated 3/22/02 1:56:06 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< "Just think of a single product able to stop scratches, fingerprints and
 smudge marks from damaging your CDs. DVDs and CD-ROMs, by taking the worry
 out of how carefully you try to handle them by hand. It's called the CD-LIFT
 and it enables you to pick up your CDs without your fingers even touching
 the CD surface. The CD-LIFT works by a gentle vacuum suction that allows you
 to lift and transport your CDs from the CD case to the PC drive or CD player
 and vice versa, thereby avoiding the manual touch-and-grab way CDs are
 usually handled." >>


Heehee...yeah- going through the labourous task of holding a disk by the
edges with my thumb and middle finger, with my index finger inserted in the
hole (which serves as practice on whole 'nother pastime), was simply too
taxing.  Now I can brush my teeth while changing disks without worry of
fingerprint smudges causing skips at the 34:16 mark.

--
=dg=

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "s~Z" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: How Come?
Date: 22 Mar 2002 14:57:47 -0800

>>>And please explain to me how religion is not a choice?

http://www.consciousnessstrikes.org/teachings.htm


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: flag-waving
Date: 22 Mar 2002 17:49:50 -0600

On Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 12:20:09PM -0800, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:

> Just two numbers that the rest of the world is looking at with
> some puzzlement:
>
>     80% positive rating of W

Out of curiosity, does the same thing happen in other countries who
have been attacked and are at war? I haven't seen polls on this
situation.

>     95% of Americans who believe in God (according to one of them)

Well, from what I see, this "belief" is sort of a blurry default
answer, more along the lines of "Yeah, I guess so" than any fervent
statement. The percentage of people who, for example, actively go
to church weekly is far lower.

How are the numbers in Europe?

> I simply expect that when there are serious issues at stake, intellectuals
> should put their work on a side and help bringing some light. Am I asking
> so much? History has shown them quicker to react. Why have they become
> so aphatic?

Why intellectuals? As stated earlier, they have little effect. (And
what does "aphatic" mean? I've checked several dictionaries but not
found it. I'm guessing that it might be an antonym to "phatic", but I
don't see how that maps to the context.)

> The issue is not about diversity of opinions (you pet subject), but
> that more and more people in the rest of the world are seriously
> questioning the current administration on almost any issue concerning
> foreign policy (to say it nicely).

How does this connect with Tzadik's releases?


>     Patrice (who has been alarmed by the number of friends in France
>         who have recently been more and more critical of US
>         policies; not talking about the magazines and news).

Based on what you have said about the inadvisability of some US policies
(Kyoto, etc) why does this alarm you?

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: flag-waving
Date: 22 Mar 2002 15:03:23 -0800


    Joseph,

    Have a good night. This was just a nighmare.

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: duncan youngerman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: flag-waving, packaging and martyrdom
Date: 23 Mar 2002 00:21:50 +0100

>  I find Wagner boring as hell.

Give an ear to the preludes to Acts 1, 2 and 3  of "Tristan", please...

> May I guess from your writing that you do not, yourself, believe in a
> deity, yet have the audacity to demand how those who do should believe
> and behave? As the saying goes, "If you don't play the game, you don't
> make the rules."

I'm fine with any deity that concurs with the Universal Declaration of the Rights of Man and the Citizen.
-That-'s the game that has to be played. "Leave to Ceasar etc..."


> And why do you refuse to recognize that the actions of that
> administration are not identical to Judaism?

But they are closely connected to it. Only Jews can undo them.


> > In fact, where are the mass demonstrations of Muslims against Osama Bin Laden, of Jews
> > against Sharon or the settlers, Catholics and Protestants against Irish terrorism and
> > for reconciliation? The smallest local soccer game gets more crowds than all of the
> > above in a decade.
>
> Do you understand that there are more effective ways of protesting
> than standing around in a street shouting?

Without necessarily shouting, tens of thousands of people taking time off from all their indispensable activities to march relentlessly
has recently brought down at least 5 dictatorships I can think of just of the bat:
the Philipines (1986), East Germany, Czekoslovakia, Romania (1989), Serbia (2000).
Remember Gandhi's marches, or the king of Denmark who by getting the Dane population to march the streets with flowers made the
deportation of Jews physically impossible for the Germans.
If only a thousandth of the 1 Billion Muslims on earth had marched through Arab capitals to protest the disastrously "radical"
appropriation of their religion by Bin Laden and co., that would have sent shock waves across the planet and Osama into permanent
vacation.
Nothing of any sort at all happened. Hence the problematic connection mentioned earlier.
If one million Americans would gather in Washington in protest of the Bush Kyoto treaty rejection, the world would breathe a little bit
better.

D.



>
>


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: flag-waving
Date: 22 Mar 2002 15:40:45 -0800

on 3/22/02 3:32 PM, Joseph Zitt at [e-mail] wrote:

> On Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 12:48:49PM -0800, skip Heller wrote:
>
>>> Well, I do have a "Chris Gaines" CD single, which I got outa curiosity.
>>
>> you have some apologizing to do ;-)
>
> Mea maxima culpa. But it comes in really handy for blindfold tests :-)

that is the best possible smart-ass rejoinder.  well met.

sh


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: flag-waving, packaging and martyrdom
Date: 22 Mar 2002 18:34:56 -0600

On Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 12:21:50AM +0100, duncan youngerman wrote:
> >  I find Wagner boring as hell.
>
> Give an ear to the preludes to Acts 1, 2 and 3  of "Tristan", please...

I'll try to get it at our (surprisingly well-stocked) local library
tomorrow. Thanks for the recommendation.

> If one million Americans would gather in Washington in protest of the
> Bush Kyoto treaty rejection, the world would breathe a little bit
> better.

Did the famous Million Man March on Washington some years back have
any effect on the government in the long run?

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: duncan youngerman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: flag-waving ("why intellectuals?")
Date: 23 Mar 2002 00:54:53 +0100

>
>
> > I simply expect that when there are serious issues at stake, intellectuals
> > should put their work on a side and help bringing some light. Am I asking
> > so much? History has shown them quicker to react. Why have they become
> > so aphatic?
>
> Why intellectuals? As stated earlier, they have little effect.

Socrates, Jesus, St Augustine, Luther, Galileo, Copernicus, Rousseau, Voltaire,
Adam Smith, Jefferson, Madison, Thoreau, Marx, Darwin, Hugo, Zola , Nietzche,
Hertzl, Freud, Einstein, Gandhi, Sartre, Camus, Dylan, Soljenitsin, Sakarov,
Havel, Rugova...?

D.

>
>


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: duncan youngerman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: flag-waving ("why intellectuals?")
Date: 23 Mar 2002 01:23:13 +0100



=3D?US-ASCII?Q?Falcata-Galia_and_Tariff_Records?=3D a =E9crit :

> Ah, the best of the lot=2E  Unfortunately, we don't have much on offer the=
se
> days, which is a shame=2E=2E=2E
>
> Rudy

These are the tip of the tip of the iceberg, and although I doubt Galileo wa=
s
known to his contemporaries, he did change the world=2E
The iceberg today is as important, if not much more important than ever, and
when necessary, the tip will emerge=2E
D=2E

>
> >
> >
> > > I simply expect that when there are serious issues at stake,
> intellectuals
> > > should put their work on a side and help bringing some light=2E Am I
> asking
> > > so much? History has shown them quicker to react=2E Why have they beco=
me
> > > so aphatic?
> >
> > Why intellectuals? As stated earlier, they have little effect=2E
>
> Socrates, Jesus, St Augustine, Luther, Galileo, Copernicus, Rousseau,
> Voltaire,
> Adam Smith, Jefferson, Madison, Thoreau, Marx, Darwin, Hugo, Zola ,
> Nietzche,
> Hertzl, Freud, Einstein, Gandhi, Sartre, Camus, Dylan, Soljenitsin, Sakaro=
v,
> Havel, Rugova=2E=2E=2E?
>
> D=2E
>
> >
> >
>
> -


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "john schuller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: How Come?
Date: 22 Mar 2002 16:30:59 -0800

This might not be as visible within the
>contemporary Western world, where this grounding in religion has grown
>quite weak, and thus easier to ignore and change. But for those raised
>with a strong religious background, it is as hard to completely change
>to another religion (barring otherwise cataclysmic
>emotional/psychological events) as it is to change one's mother
>tongue. And for those who were not raised with one, it is hard to
>comprehend, and thus easy to trivialize,

Mr. Zitt, if I understand you correctly what you are saying in the above
statement is that one's religion is something that can be changed. I  would
then ask if one was to change their religion - would they be making a choice
to do so? Would the act of one changing their religion or becoming an
atheist come from choosing to do so? Do you see how your above statement
proves that to be true?

Would you also agree that one's identification with and practice of a
religion is a lifestyle? If not, why?

Can you also see that if one then chooses to be either Mormon, Jehovah's
Witness, Buddhist or Catholic they are also choosing a style of life that
goes hand in hand?


_________________________________________________________________
Join the worldÆs largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
http://www.hotmail.com


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: flag-waving ("why intellectuals?")
Date: 22 Mar 2002 19:37:50 -0600

On Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 12:54:53AM +0100, duncan youngerman wrote:
> >
> >
> > > I simply expect that when there are serious issues at stake, intellectuals
> > > should put their work on a side and help bringing some light. Am I asking
> > > so much? History has shown them quicker to react. Why have they become
> > > so aphatic?
> >
> > Why intellectuals? As stated earlier, they have little effect.
>
> Socrates, Jesus, St Augustine, Luther, Galileo, Copernicus, Rousseau, Voltaire,
> Adam Smith, Jefferson, Madison, Thoreau, Marx, Darwin, Hugo, Zola , Nietzche,
> Hertzl, Freud, Einstein, Gandhi, Sartre, Camus, Dylan, Soljenitsin, Sakarov,
> Havel, Rugova...?

Contemporary America...?

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: flag-waving ("why intellectuals?")
Date: 22 Mar 2002 16:49:51 -0800


On Fri, 22 Mar 2002 19:37:50 -0600  Joseph Zitt wrote:
>
> On Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 12:54:53AM +0100, duncan youngerman wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > > I simply expect that when there are serious issues at stake, intellectuals
> > > > should put their work on a side and help bringing some light. Am I asking
> > > > so much? History has shown them quicker to react. Why have they become
> > > > so aphatic?
> > >
> > > Why intellectuals? As stated earlier, they have little effect.
> >
> > Socrates, Jesus, St Augustine, Luther, Galileo, Copernicus, Rousseau, Voltaire,
> > Adam Smith, Jefferson, Madison, Thoreau, Marx, Darwin, Hugo, Zola , Nietzche,
> > Hertzl, Freud, Einstein, Gandhi, Sartre, Camus, Dylan, Soljenitsin, Sakarov,
> > Havel, Rugova...?
>
> Contemporary America...?

You Joseph, don't be so modest.

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: flag-waving ("why intellectuals?")
Date: 22 Mar 2002 20:14:01 -0600


On Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 04:49:51PM -0800, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:

> > > > Why intellectuals? As stated earlier, they have little effect.
> > >
> > > Socrates, Jesus, St Augustine, Luther, Galileo, Copernicus, Rousseau, Voltaire,
> > > Adam Smith, Jefferson, Madison, Thoreau, Marx, Darwin, Hugo, Zola , Nietzche,
> > > Hertzl, Freud, Einstein, Gandhi, Sartre, Camus, Dylan, Soljenitsin, Sakarov,
> > > Havel, Rugova...?
> >
> > Contemporary America...?
>
> You Joseph, don't be so modest.

I wouldn't consider myself an intellectual. Neither, I suspect, would
Jesus, Gandhi, or Dylan. Though maybe this is another of those words
with different connotations in Europe.

My father was once on a TV talk show in the 60s, G Wheeler's Electric
Essay, on a panel about Intellectuals. I don't remember much about it,
though, other than that he got me the autograph of Lorenzo the Clown.

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: How Come?
Date: 22 Mar 2002 20:20:44 -0600

On Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 04:30:59PM -0800, john schuller wrote:

> Can you also see that if one then chooses to be either Mormon, Jehovah's
> Witness, Buddhist or Catholic they are also choosing a style of life that
> goes hand in hand?

What do you mean by "style"?

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "john schuller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: How Come?
Date: 22 Mar 2002 17:48:16 -0800

I use style as in the way in which something is done. And I use lifestyle as
a way of life or style of living that reflects the attitudes and values of a
person or group.

So, do you now see how religion is a lifestyle choice? Why do you refuse to
understand this? Do you care to retract your comments?

And see if you can answer this with a yes or no. Can one choose their
religion? Simple as that.

>From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
>To: john schuller <[e-mail]>
>CC: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: How Come?
>Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 20:20:44 -0600
>
>On Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 04:30:59PM -0800, john schuller wrote:
>
> > Can you also see that if one then chooses to be either Mormon, Jehovah's
> > Witness, Buddhist or Catholic they are also choosing a style of life
>that
> > goes hand in hand?
>
>What do you mean by "style"?
>
>--
>| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
>| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
>|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
>| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
>| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |
>




<html><DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></html>


_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: How Come?
Date: 22 Mar 2002 18:07:55 -0800


On Fri, 22 Mar 2002 17:48:16 -0800  "john schuller" wrote:
>
> I use style as in the way in which something is done. And I use lifestyle as
> a way of life or style of living that reflects the attitudes and values of a
> person or group.
>
> So, do you now see how religion is a lifestyle choice? Why do you refuse to
> understand this? Do you care to retract your comments?
>
> And see if you can answer this with a yes or no. Can one choose their
> religion? Simple as that.

I don't remember Joseph ever taking the risk of answering by yes or no
such questions. It led me to the conclusion that in his mind, expecting
such answers was below human intelligence. That only people with
primitive minds would content themselves with such answers. Manicheism,
classification, dichotomy, boolean logic, proof, these are relics from
the dark age of the Enlightment where people were so misled that they
believed there was objective truth, and the challenge was to find it.
How could a citizen of the modern world, with all its multiplicity,
could even ask for yes or no? This is the logic of your grandad, does
not fit the multi dimensional complexity of the world you live in :-).

Why answering with a yes or a no? This could be hold against you in the
future. Not answering with a yes or no is the first rule you learn to
use when you want to be able to keep an argument running ad nausea (as
well as to avoid a commitment). At worse, if somebody forces you to
answer by yes or no, you can call to the rescue the usual dialectic
tricks: the question is wrongly asked (a classic, never wears out), or
the terminology is uncertain (quite popular in certain milieux), etc.

With all the subtleties between yes and no, it would be sad to have to make
a choice for one or the other. On the altar of dichotomy, you shan't kneel!
Repeat that ten times before going to bed :-).

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Zachary Steiner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: How Come?
Date: 22 Mar 2002 21:10:52 -0500

>> And see if you can answer this with a yes or no. Can one choose their

religion? Simple as that.

Yes.  Further still a person can choose to what extent they want to
practice their given religion, if at all.

Zach





-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "s~Z" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: How Come?
Date: 22 Mar 2002 18:55:11 -0800

>>>What do you mean by "style"?<<<

What is meant by "you" and what is meant by "choosing"?




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "s~Z" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: How Come?
Date: 22 Mar 2002 18:59:27 -0800

>>>Yes.  Further still a person can choose to what extent they
want to
practice their given religion, if at all.<<<

The concept of "choice" is laughable if "you" investigate it
deeply.




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Zachary Steiner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: How Come?
Date: 22 Mar 2002 22:08:28 -0500

>> The concept of "choice" is laughable if "you" investigate it
deeply.

I take it you are a Skinnerian... Isn't it choice for "me" to
investigate it deeply or not?



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Zachary Steiner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: We Insist! Freedom Now Suite
Date: 22 Mar 2002 22:47:11 -0500

I asked a couple of weeks about this album and where I could find it.  I
found it on CD at the Candid Records website and it was pretty
reasonable, even to ship from England.  Thanks for every one who helped
me figure out the name of this album.

Zach



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>
Subject: radical jewish culture and other favorite Z-list topics
Date: 23 Mar 2002 05:10:37 +0000

I've never understood why some associate the radical jewish culture series
with the state of Israel or events in the Middle East, as if Jewishness is
reducible to Israel or "radical" is metonymically equivalent with violence.
This doesn't make any sense.  "Radical" does not have that designation.  It
means "getting to the roots of things."  Given that, I could see why Joe
would get irritated with these kinds of associations and reductions.  As
does, I'm sure, Steve Fruitman, who knows far more about this stuff than I,
but would probably rather do something else than refute the claims of anyone
who comes along.

I think it was Skip who said something about the political task of
intellectuals in the states.  It should be born in mind that the role of
public intellectuals in America has declined considerably since the fifties.
  That was when the public intellectuals left urban centers, particularly
New York, and went to the campuses, where they could afford things like
housing after the high-cost revamping of urban dwellings.  This has been
going on now for fifty years.  Witness Lawrence Ferlinghetti's essay on
gentrification in San Francisco in a recent issue of Counter Punch.  When
intellectuals are dispersed away from the centers of active political
dissent, there are fewer opportunities to join hands with working people in
those areas or publish materials that can have some effect.  At the
universities, they are forced into the either/or logic of publish or perish
in journals catering to narrower audiences.  It's easy for people to
criticize the intellectual classes in the states.  But few recognize that
their marginalization was to a large extent an effect of policy.  See
Russell Jacoby's The Last Intellectuals for more details.

Speaking of the RJC, who's been listening to Raz Mesinai's excellent "Before
the Law" dedicated to Kafka?  Now there's an occasion where facile
dismissals of the RJC run into problems--a jewish diasporic musician who
travelled with the Bedouin interpreting through sound the most anti-state
fiction writer of the last century.  What would dear old Kafka think about
Ariel Sharon were he alive now?

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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: How Come?
Date: 23 Mar 2002 00:27:54 -0600

On Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 05:48:16PM -0800, john schuller wrote:

> And see if you can answer this with a yes or no. Can one choose their
> religion? Simple as that.

No, not simple as that.

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "john schuller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: How Come?
Date: 22 Mar 2002 21:54:48 -0800

Yes it is. Either yes or no. Why do you fail to see this? I believe it
because you have nothing to back yourself up with. In your last attempt you
admitted that people can change their religion, am I wrong? Is it not the
individual's choice? Can you not understand that if someone has the option
to change something, and take action to make a change or not make a change
it is by choice? Care to retract your statements yet?


>From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
>To: john schuller <[e-mail]>
>CC: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: How Come?
>Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 00:27:54 -0600
>
>On Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 05:48:16PM -0800, john schuller wrote:
>
> > And see if you can answer this with a yes or no. Can one choose their
> > religion? Simple as that.
>
>No, not simple as that.
>
>--
>| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
>| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
>|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
>| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
>| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |
>




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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Zachary Steiner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: How Come?
Date: 23 Mar 2002 01:23:41 -0500

> And see if you can answer this with a yes or no. Can one choose their
> religion? Simple as that.

>> No, not simple as that.

Simple in description, but not in practice.  I'll grant you that much.

Zach



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: How Come?
Date: 23 Mar 2002 01:32:11 -0600

On Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 09:54:48PM -0800, john schuller wrote:

> Yes it is. Either yes or no. Why do you fail to see this? I believe it
> because you have nothing to back yourself up with.

*sigh*

Yes, you probably do believe this. And some people believe that the
Earth is flat.

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: radical jewish culture and other favorite Z-list topics
Date: 23 Mar 2002 01:27:16 -0600

On Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 05:10:37AM +0000, Bill Ashline wrote:

> I've never understood why some associate the radical jewish culture series
> with the state of Israel or events in the Middle East, as if Jewishness is
> reducible to Israel or "radical" is metonymically equivalent with violence.
> This doesn't make any sense.  "Radical" does not have that designation.  It
> means "getting to the roots of things."

Someone once said that England and the US were two nations divided by
a common language. I'm suspecting that this is even more true as
English gets used elsewhere. It appears that, to some in Europe, the
word "Radical" has rather different connotations than to
Americans. That they insist that an artist stateside accept their use
of the term, however, is akin to an American getting annoyed at the
British use of the term "petrol" rather than "gasoline."

I do recognize, however, that words grow meanings that often expand
beyond, and have little to do with, their linguistic roots: few who
use the word "cartoon" know or care that it apparently came from the
Italian word for "pasteboard". (I certainly didn't, until I wondered
about it for no particular reason about an hour ago.)

>   That was when the public intellectuals left urban centers, particularly
> New York, and went to the campuses, where they could afford things like
> housing after the high-cost revamping of urban dwellings.  This has been
> going on now for fifty years.  Witness Lawrence Ferlinghetti's essay on
> gentrification in San Francisco in a recent issue of Counter Punch.[...] See
> Russell Jacoby's The Last Intellectuals for more details.

I hadn't known this. I'll have to look into these references. Thanks.

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "john schuller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: How Come?
Date: 22 Mar 2002 23:33:13 -0800

I was refering to the act of answering a yes or no question.


>From: "Zachary Steiner" <[e-mail]>
>To: "'Joseph Zitt'" <[e-mail]>,  "'john schuller'"
><[e-mail]>
>CC: <[e-mail]>
>Subject: RE: How Come?
>Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 01:23:41 -0500
>
> > And see if you can answer this with a yes or no. Can one choose their
> > religion? Simple as that.
>
> >> No, not simple as that.
>
>Simple in description, but not in practice.  I'll grant you that much.
>
>Zach
>
>




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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "john schuller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: How Come?
Date: 22 Mar 2002 23:47:29 -0800

*sigh* Dodged it again. You are good at dodging questions when they are
given to you. The reason you dodge the question is because you haven't the
answer or you know your answer is full of holes. So instead it is much
easier for you to walk around it. I think now, I am almost done with you.
You continually deliver people questions in an attempt to show that you are
superior in intellect and rational thought yet haven't the ability to answer
these questions when given to you. Why is that? Why do you have the
inability to answer a yes or no question? The question itself is very easy
to answer with a yes or no. Feel free to take a stab at these again. You
dodged each of them last time they were asked.


"Mr. Zitt, if I understand you correctly what you are saying in the above
statement is that one's religion is something that can be changed. I  would
then ask if one was to change their religion - would they be making a choice
to do so? Would the act of one changing their religion or becoming an
atheist come from choosing to do so? Do you see how your above statement
proves that to be true?

Would you also agree that one's identification with and practice of a
religion is a lifestyle? If not, why?

Can you also see that if one then chooses to be either Mormon, Jehovah's
Witness, Buddhist or Catholic they are also choosing a style of life that
goes hand in hand?"

And I hope you remember what I mean by style. I use style as in the way in
which something is done. And I use lifestyle as a way of life or style of
living that reflects the attitudes and values of a person or group.



>From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
>To: john schuller <[e-mail]>
>CC: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: How Come?
>Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 01:32:11 -0600
>
>On Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 09:54:48PM -0800, john schuller wrote:
>
> > Yes it is. Either yes or no. Why do you fail to see this? I believe it
> > because you have nothing to back yourself up with.
>
>*sigh*
>
>Yes, you probably do believe this. And some people believe that the
>Earth is flat.
>
>--
>| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
>| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
>|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
>| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
>| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |





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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: How Come?
Date: 23 Mar 2002 02:43:20 -0600

On Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 11:47:29PM -0800, john schuller wrote:
> Why do you have the
> inability to answer a yes or no question? The question itself is very easy
> to answer with a yes or no.

John, answer this first with a simple yes or no: Have you stopped
beating your wife?

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: florid oratory <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: We Insist!
Date: 22 Mar 2002 23:54:19 -0800

zach, i suggest you enhance your listening pleasure with two other Crucial
albums from the same ferment:
"Percussion Bittersuite" by Max Roach, on Impulse
and "Straight Ahead" by Abbey Lincoln, on Candid



> From: "Zachary Steiner" <[e-mail]>
> Subject: We Insist! Freedom Now Suite
>
> I asked a couple of weeks about this album and where I could find it.  I
> found it on CD at the Candid Records website and it was pretty
> reasonable, even to ship from England.  Thanks for every one who helped
> me figure out the name of this album.
>
> Zach
>


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jim Flannery <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: How Come? INSTANT POLL
Date: 23 Mar 2002 00:48:01 -0800

If this thread had a soundtrack, would it be ...

a) Cale/Riley, "The Hall of Mirrors in the Temple of Versailles"
b) Country Joe & the Fish, "Here We Go Again"
c) Flipper, "Brainwash"

--
Jim Flannery                                           [e-mail]

         "Unexamined assumptions and axioms can be collected the
          way one might collect stamps."
                                                 -- James Elkins
np: Radulovich/Fernandes, _The Whisper Chipper_
nr: John Lanchester, _The Debt to Pleasure_


-



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From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Efr=E9n_del_Valle?= <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Ooops!... Britney again!
Date: 22 Mar 2002 19:02:53 +0100

HI,

the underground filmmaker is generally struggling hard for the right to be a
Hollywood puppet.  You think these guys like making movies on a budget that
is slightly less than what the trailer for a Spielberg movie costs?

skip h

Of course, not. I've been working in cinema for almost two years, basically
with American companies and I've seen many things. For instance, I've read
dozens of awful screenplays that hit the theatres while others that are
really worth the attention are lying on a shelf and their authors looking
for bar tending jobs. That means that a fat cat seizes the opportunity of
making a whole new thing (generally commercial garbage) out of your original
story because he/she knows that you're serving drinks and your future
expectations are not too attractive. This happened to a NYC guy I know not
so long ago.
I don't know what I'd do in such a situation. Unfortunately (or fortunately)
I'm working for the BAD ones. ;-)

Best,

EfrΘn del Valle
n.p: Yuka Honda "Memories Are My Only Witness" (tzadik)

-



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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "john schuller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: How Come?
Date: 23 Mar 2002 01:12:04 -0800

To compare the two questions side by side---

Can one choose their religion? and Have you stopped beating your wife?

The first question can be answered at anytime by one who has the ability to
make a decision. (it does not even include the words "you" or "I") The only
requirements are that someone is able to make a decision (not in a vegetable
state) and that there is more than one religion or lack thereof to choose
from. The question can be answered with a yes or no.

To answer the second question with a yes or no would require that I have a
wife and that I had or am presently beating my wife. Since I do not have a
wife the answer cannot come out as yes or no. The first question "Can one
choose their religion" can.

Try again. I have a lot of time this weekend.



>From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
>To: john schuller <[e-mail]>
>CC: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: How Come?
>Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 02:43:20 -0600
>
>On Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 11:47:29PM -0800, john schuller wrote:
> > Why do you have the
> > inability to answer a yes or no question? The question itself is very
>easy
> > to answer with a yes or no.
>
>John, answer this first with a simple yes or no: Have you stopped
>beating your wife?
>
>--
>| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
>| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
>|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
>| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
>| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |
>




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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Marcin Gokieli" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Odp: Previte/Frith/Some Questions
Date: 23 Mar 2002 10:44:29 +0100


----- Original Message -----

> You mean SLAY THE SUITORS? That's strange, because it is usually fairly
down
> the list of top Previte records. IMHO, not to the level of excitement of
the
> Gramavision/Enja material.

If slay the suitors is by empty suitsm then its enja counterpart, titled
empty suits, isn't the best thisng he's done neither. I think that the
firsyt two 'weather clear...' cds were his peak. But i'm looking forward tho
hear 'miro'.
Marcin


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Iain Kitt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Joseph and John
Date: 23 Mar 2002 11:23:46 -0000

Am I the only person finding Joseph and John's exchanges are  becoming
increasingly tiresome? Please carry on guys if you want to but can you not
do it off list?

Iain


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Iain Kitt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Recent message
Date: 23 Mar 2002 11:29:35 -0000

Whoops! It seems my last message requests you to acknowledge receipt. Please
don't bother!  My fault - I've just upgraded to IE6 and didn't realsie that
feature was turned on.

Iain


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rich Williams <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: flag-waving, packaging and martyrdom
Date: 22 Mar 2002 20:01:32 -0500

>
>Daniel Pearl was murdered by people who define themselves as
>"radical muslims".

    I think you have it backwards. We (the west),  define them as
radicals, they consider themselves conservatives.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Steve Smith" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: radical jewish culture and other favorite Z-list topics
Date: 23 Mar 2002 12:03:04 -0500

According to a Lewis Lapham essay in a recent issue of Harpers, it seems to
me that most public intellectuals now view it as their sole remaining
option/duty to go off and hold tony, erudite gatherings at which to complain
to one another that no one else listens to them anymore.

The average American most likely thinks Charlie Rose is an intellectual.
Certainly Terry Gross, if they get that far towards the left of the dial.

Steve Smith
[e-mail]
NP - Wagner, 'Tannhauser' - Staatskapelle Berlin/Barenboim (Teldec)

-----Original Message-----
[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Bill Ashline

I think it was Skip who said something about the political task of
intellectuals in the states.  It should be born in mind that the role of
public intellectuals in America has declined considerably since the fifties.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tosh <[e-mail]>
Subject: Dumbing down America
Date: 23 Mar 2002 09:27:56 -0800

>Sadly this is true!  I think it's more of a cultural shift than
>anything else. Also I think the media (whoever they are) sort of
>sells the idea of the stupid consumer - consuming for the sake of
>consuming.  Also if one looks at your local bookstore chain - there
>are more books regarding your wealth, your health, your looks, your
>blah blah - very rarely are there books dealing looking outward.

Since the 9/11 incident, there have been a slew of books about other
cultures - but I think the nature of America (I can't speak for other
cultures) is to look inward and reflect on their image.

& seriously I think the best commentary I have read has been on this
list.  It maybe impossible to seperate politics & culture from music
listening.  Especially on this list which is one big adventure trip
to the unknown ...which is why I love it!

>
>I think it was Skip who said something about the political task of
>intellectuals in the states.  It should be born in mind that the role of
>public intellectuals in America has declined considerably since the fifties.
>
>
>-


--
Tosh Berman
TamTam Books
http://www.tamtambooks.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: mwoodwor <[e-mail]>
Subject: schuller and zitt
Date: 23 Mar 2002 13:45:06 -0400

Hey Schuller and Zitt (or whatever your names are) PLEASE start sending your
debate privately between yourselves  - I'm sick of scrolling down through all
of your emails, it's actually starting to hurt my eyes.

Better yet stop emailing altogether and go and purchase Raymond Scott's
-Soothing SOunds for Baby (better make it volume 1), and listen to it on
repeat for at least 5 hours, that should take the fight out of ya........

Mike


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: radical jewish culture and other favorite Z-list topics
Date: 23 Mar 2002 09:59:12 -0800

on 3/23/02 9:03 AM, Steve Smith at [e-mail] wrote:

> According to a Lewis Lapham essay in a recent issue of Harpers, it seems to
> me that most public intellectuals now view it as their sole remaining
> option/duty to go off and hold tony, erudite gatherings at which to complain
> to one another that no one else listens to them anymore.
>
> The average American most likely thinks Charlie Rose is an intellectual.
> Certainly Terry Gross, if they get that far towards the left of the dial.
>

You often hear about the death of intellectualism in America, as if it's a
major event with a tangiable expiration date.  As for what I've witnessed,
Lapham is right, although he left out that, as long as you are serving free
white wine, you will likely attract at least two of these beasts.

-
> From: [e-mail]
> [mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Bill Ashline
>
> I think it was Skip who said something about the political task of
> intellectuals in the states.  It should be born in mind that the role of
> public intellectuals in America has declined considerably since the fifties.
>
So far as I can make of it, the public task of intellectuals has never been
the most exhaustive.  The one truly intellectual guy who ran for president
in the last sixty years (Stevenson) proved to be a great guy but an
ineffectual public figure, compared to, say, Ross Perot -- who by his very
crackpotdom managed to actually raise public awareness of certain kinds of
issues.  This, to me, was the sign of an effective public figure -- no way
in life was he gonna win, but he sure brought some shit to the party.
Ocaasionally you need a lunatic in there, shaking things up and rasing
questions.  Fr a moment, he was the Jackson Pollack between two Norman
Rockwell's.

Woody Allen, during his mortality soliliquy in HANNAH AND HER SISTERS, said
(paraphrasing like mad), "All these great minds and, in the end, none of
them has any more answers than I do".  It's true -- you can read all the
books you want on philsophy, religion etc, but it's all speculation in the
end.

That a lot of educated people who have read the endless speculation does not
make their opinions worthier or more important than those of Americans who
drive busses.  There was a time in American history where intellectuals were
celebrated for their intellectualness (espec in the atomic-age 50s, when TV
latched onto these guys as technological purveyors of the better life just
before us in the future).  But, in the end, they didn't help Americans to
become better-educated as a nation, nor did most of them manage to make
their thoughts compelling to a larger group of people than the people who
already had those kinds of thoughts (sorry for such an awkward sentence).
That their public profile as a category has declined since the fifties does
not really hurt matters, from what I can see, because their previous public
profile did little to help matters (unless the guy in question actually put
his theories to enough practical use that he invented something that
actually works).

I find it difficult to decry the decline of the public profile of these
people.  Call me nuts.  I find it sadder -- and more destructive to
America's self-respect -- when athletes behave like huns (on and off the
field/court/ring) and make more money than the dignified pros Ali, Aaron,
and Kareem put together.

skip h





-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Matthew Ross Davis <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: hip hop
Date: 23 Mar 2002 12:07:42 -0600

and i'm not even sure i'd make the assumption to begin with

skip Heller([e-mail])@Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 01:06:44PM -0800:
> on 3/20/02 1:01 PM, [e-mail] at [e-mail]
> wrote:
>
> > I doubt that Dr. Dre even knows who John Cage is.
> >
> > -
> >
> ... and somehow I would never count this against him.
>
> skip h
>
>
> -

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From: "gorilla thing" <[e-mail]>
Subject: them crazy opera singers
Date: 23 Mar 2002 11:00:05 -0800

not to interrupt the fascinating debate:
but are there any opera singers doing
some cutting edge crazy freaky music?

-Chad

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: How Come? INSTANT POLL
Date: 23 Mar 2002 13:59:41 -0600

On Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 12:48:01AM -0800, Jim Flannery wrote:
> If this thread had a soundtrack, would it be ...
>
> a) Cale/Riley, "The Hall of Mirrors in the Temple of Versailles"
> b) Country Joe & the Fish, "Here We Go Again"
> c) Flipper, "Brainwash"

d) Alvin Lucier, "I am Sitting in a Room"

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: How Come?
Date: 23 Mar 2002 14:00:51 -0600

On Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 01:12:04AM -0800, john schuller wrote:

> Try again. I have a lot of time this weekend.

No need. Your rhetoric has collapsed.

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Alan Kayser" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Previte plus
Date: 23 Mar 2002 14:19:45 -0500

Marcin wrote


"If slay the suitors is by empty suitsm then its enja counterpart, titled
empty suits, isn't the best thisng he's done neither. I think that the
firsyt two 'weather clear...' cds were his peak. But i'm looking forward tho
hear 'miro'."

SLAY THE SUITORS is on Avant, and seems to be a stripped down version of the
band used on EMPTY SUITS, which is on Gramavision.  SLAY THE SUITORS does
not claim to be by the Empty Suits band.  Neither one is on Enja, though.

MIRO is something very special, totally unique.

BTW, I agree with those who are quite put off by the bickering between
Joseph and John.  Enough is enough.  Please do this arguing off line.

Alan E Kayser




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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "john schuller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: How Come?
Date: 23 Mar 2002 11:20:05 -0800

No my friend. I do believe that you have just collapsed. You have failed to
answer any of my questions. I think you have now proved yourself for what
you are and are not.

Looks like I am now done with you.

And the soundtrack to this debate was Flipper's Brainwashed with the
lockgroove ending and everything.


>From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
>To: john schuller <[e-mail]>
>CC: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: How Come?
>Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 14:00:51 -0600
>
>On Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 01:12:04AM -0800, john schuller wrote:
>
> > Try again. I have a lot of time this weekend.
>
>No need. Your rhetoric has collapsed.
>
>--
>| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
>| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
>|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
>| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
>| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |
>




<html><DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></html>


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Joseph and John
Date: 23 Mar 2002 14:47:49 -0600

On Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 11:23:46AM -0000, Iain Kitt wrote:
> Am I the only person finding Joseph and John's exchanges are  becoming
> increasingly tiresome?

I certainly am.

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Carl Bayard" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: How Come?
Date: 22 Mar 2002 15:11:09 -0500

this entire exchange is beginning to remind me of Woody Allen's classic
"Gossage-Varabedian Papers", where two guys play a confused correspondance
chess match...

minus the humour, of course...

----- Original Message -----
Cc: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2002 2:20 PM


> No my friend. I do believe that you have just collapsed. You have failed
to
> answer any of my questions. I think you have now proved yourself for what
> you are and are not.
>
> Looks like I am now done with you.
>
> And the soundtrack to this debate was Flipper's Brainwashed with the
> lockgroove ending and everything.
>
>
> >From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
> >To: john schuller <[e-mail]>
> >CC: [e-mail]
> >Subject: Re: How Come?
> >Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 14:00:51 -0600
> >
> >On Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 01:12:04AM -0800, john schuller wrote:
> >
> > > Try again. I have a lot of time this weekend.
> >
> >No need. Your rhetoric has collapsed.
> >
> >--
> >| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
> >| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
> >|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
> >| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
> >| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |
> >
>
>
>
>
> <html><DIV>
> <DIV>
> <DIV>
> <DIV>
> <DIV>
> <DIV>
> <DIV>
> <DIV> </DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></html>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
>
>
> -
>
>


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: radical jewish culture and other favorite Z-list topics
Date: 23 Mar 2002 20:31:34 +0000

>From: "Steve Smith" <[e-mail]>

>According to a Lewis Lapham essay in a recent issue of Harpers, it seems to
>me that most public intellectuals now view it as their sole remaining
>option/duty to go off and hold tony, erudite gatherings at which to
>complain
>to one another that no one else listens to them anymore.

Lapham's probably right, at least in terms of what gets configured as
"public intellectual" these days, though I'd hardly consider him to be one
himself.  I mean, the guy actually did state this:

And President Clinton? "A godsend, because he's like a pi±ata. I mean every
conceivable kind of story comes out of him -- heartwarming flood-victim
stories; Monica Lewinsky stories; bankrupt, seething corruption stories; the
failed marriage, the rescued marriage, the lovely dog. It's almost as if he
was hired to be the paid entertainment."

But confirming what I wrote earlier he did note this:

"When I first came to New York in the '60s, I could afford to, even on a
newspaper reporter's salary, live on the Upper East Side," Lapham recalls.
"But the kids that are now working for Harper's magazine cannot. They have
to live in Brooklyn or they have to live in Hoboken."  Hoboken. Horrors. It
worries me that the literary and journalism professions may soon be overrun
by wealthy children, I tell him. "Entry-level publishing jobs -- working for
Random House, for example -- pay $24,000 a year," I say. "What young person
can afford to go into that?"  "You have to be a fairly hard-bitten idealist,
or you have to have an indulgent parent, or you have to have a trust fund.
And there are some hard-bitten idealists. We have several of them working
for Harper's magazine -- kids that are making $24,000 and have no other
visible means of support. But it's a small number."

>
>The average American most likely thinks Charlie Rose is an intellectual.
>Certainly Terry Gross, if they get that far towards the left of the dial.

Or the guys on Crossfire.  Or Stephen Segal (because of that eastern thing).
  Or Sting.  One of the successes of the American system--keep people so
distracted by their jobs and technology so that they no longer have any
tangible idea of what the word "intellectual" means any more, their own
intellectual life falling by the wayside as a result.


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "s~Z" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: How Come?
Date: 23 Mar 2002 12:55:40 -0800

>>>I take it you are a Skinnerian...<<<

I'm not much of anyian, but got tipped off to the thought of
Advaita and Ramesh Balsekar by Leonard Cohen in a recent online
chat. Reading Balsekar's take on Advaita has confirmed a lot of
things I've thought over the years, but have not had the fortitude
to admit I believed. In the context of Advaita this discussion of
choice is hilarious.

>>> Isn't it choice for "me" to investigate it deeply or not?<<<

Sure as hell feels like a choice doesn't it?




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: radical jewish culture and other favorite Z-list topics
Date: 23 Mar 2002 21:25:11 +0000




>From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>

>Woody Allen, during his mortality soliliquy in HANNAH AND HER SISTERS, said
>(paraphrasing like mad), "All these great minds and, in the end, none of
>them has any more answers than I do".  It's true -- you can read all the
>books you want on philsophy, religion etc, but it's all speculation in the
>end.

The life of the mind is the answer--in and of itself, with no reduction to
use-value and no demand for application or "relevance."  Without a capacity
to think, we can't see whether we are the effects of social and political
stasis or potential movers of change.

>
>That a lot of educated people who have read the endless speculation does
>not
>make their opinions worthier or more important than those of Americans who
>drive busses.

But if we had a viable public intellectual culture, we might value bus
drivers for something more than just driving buses.  And bus drivers might
see themselves as something more as well.  Scratch the surface and maybe
that bus driver knows his Plato backwards and forwards or keeps meticulous
discographies of John Zorn.  We might stop reducing people to what they "do"
rather than who they are.

>There was a time in American history where intellectuals were
>celebrated for their intellectualness (espec in the atomic-age 50s, when TV
>latched onto these guys as technological purveyors of the better life just
>before us in the future).  But, in the end, they didn't help Americans to
>become better-educated as a nation, nor did most of them manage to make
>their thoughts compelling to a larger group of people than the people who
>already had those kinds of thoughts (sorry for such an awkward sentence).

It wasn't the fault of the intellectuals that Americans lost interest in
reading.  That itself was an effect of technology that served the status quo
quite well.  The politicians have talked a lot lately about education.  But
they care not one wit about it.  They don't want an educated public capable
of making decisions about public life.  They want public educated enough to
handle the machinery of corporate life, and that's it.  An "instrumental"
education, if you will.  If you're an educator, you worry about things like
the loss of a sense of history, of interest and concern about current
events, political awareness, literary and philosophical broadmindedness,
etc.  The contributions of people like Edmond Wilson, C. Wright Mills, and
Dwight MacDonald were just as important to American cultural life as those
of Dave Brubeck or Miles Davis.  The contributions of Alex Cockburn, Edward
Said, Noam Chomsky, and Cornel West today are every bit as significant and
more than those of John Zorn and Cecil Taylor.  Whether we decide to pay
attention or not can have everything to do with whether we find our
aesthetic sustenance in Brittany Spears rather than Johnny 'Guitar' Watson
or nutritional sustenance in Cocoa Pops rather than meusli, or Tom Brokaw
rather than Amy Goodman.

>I find it difficult to decry the decline of the public profile of these
>people.  Call me nuts.  I find it sadder -- and more destructive to
>America's self-respect -- when athletes behave like huns (on and off the
>field/court/ring) and make more money than the dignified pros Ali, Aaron,
>and Kareem put together.

I find it sadder and more destructive to America's respect, self and
otherwise, that anyone, including myself, bothers to pay any attention or
who worships someone who can handle a ball better than one who can handle a
classroom and is paid accordingly.  That and no one even bothers to yell
"obscenity!"




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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Mike Chamberlain <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: radical jewish culture and other favorite Z-list topics
Date: 23 Mar 2002 17:08:19 -0500

on 3/23/02 4:25 PM, Bill Ashline at [e-mail] wrote:


>
> I find it sadder and more destructive to America's respect, self and
> otherwise, that anyone, including myself, bothers to pay any attention or
> who worships someone who can handle a ball better than one who can handle a
> classroom and is paid accordingly.  That and no one even bothers to yell
> "obscenity!"
>
Biil,  I think I know what you mean, but the "who" before "worships"
confuses the issue.

Apart from the fact that teachers and nurses are not well-paid (I'm a
teacher, so you might want to throw that out as a self-serving argument
before you examine my income tax statement), there's obscenity in the fact
that a farmer with hundreds of thousands of dollars invested in land and
equipment is paid less per box of Wheaties than Tiger Woods is.  Or that
Britney Spears--and I know whereof I speak, as I have a 12-year-old
daughter--makes far more money and gets far more attention than, say, Mark
Dresser.

--Mike


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: radical jewish culture and other favorite Z-list topics
Date: 23 Mar 2002 14:34:38 -0800

on 3/23/02 1:25 PM, Bill Ashline at [e-mail] wrote:


> The life of the mind is the answer--in and of itself, with no reduction to
> use-value and no demand for application or "relevance."  Without a capacity
> to think, we can't see whether we are the effects of social and political
> stasis or potential movers of change.

I think different people have a different notion of what constitutes the
life of the mind.  For some, like my father, mechanical things formed the
basis of his personal philsophy.  It was a challenge to which he is quite
well-suited, and the stuff in which he finds stimulation largely has to do
with engines and motor design.  He has little use for books about theology.
That's the lifestyle of his mind.  That's the thing to which he brings his
intellect.  To me, that stuff is completely foreign.  I have no talent for
it.  But he's down with it, and can deal with the most advanced aspects of
it.   And if you ask him who has been an important proponent of cultural
change in the last century, he ain't naming Cornel West.  He'd probably say
someone like Virgil Exner.  And, given the lifestyle his mind adopts, he's
copmpletely right.  Exner was a total mover that way.  But how you see it is
largely through what color your glasses are.

> But if we had a viable public intellectual culture, we might value bus
> drivers for something more than just driving buses.  And bus drivers might
> see themselves as something more as well.  Scratch the surface and maybe
> that bus driver knows his Plato backwards and forwards or keeps meticulous
> discographies of John Zorn.  We might stop reducing people to what they "do"
> rather than who they are.
>
Whether or not there is a "viable public intellectual culture", the stuff
that bus drivers know is often interesting and useful.  BTW -- I used a bus
driver as an example because my father is one, and I know how much stuff he
knows.  I also know that relatively few people (away fr the ruling class)
look down their noses at bus drivers.  We weren't at all socially
stigmatized by his profession (but then, I grew up around factory workers).
I know my father and his friends never saw themselves as defined by their
job titles, and I have no reason to believe these guys were unique in that
respect.
>
> It wasn't the fault of the intellectuals that Americans lost interest in
> reading.  That itself was an effect of technology that served the status quo
> quite well.  The politicians have talked a lot lately about education.  But
> they care not one wit about it.  They don't want an educated public capable
> of making decisions about public life.  They want public educated enough to
> handle the machinery of corporate life, and that's it.  An "instrumental"
> education, if you will.  If you're an educator, you worry about things like
> the loss of a sense of history, of interest and concern about current
> events, political awareness, literary and philosophical broadmindedness,
> etc.  The contributions of people like Edmond Wilson, C. Wright Mills, and
> Dwight MacDonald were just as important to American cultural life as those
> of Dave Brubeck or Miles Davis.  The contributions of Alex Cockburn, Edward
> Said, Noam Chomsky, and Cornel West today are every bit as significant and
> more than those of John Zorn and Cecil Taylor.  Whether we decide to pay
> attention or not can have everything to do with whether we find our
> aesthetic sustenance in Brittany Spears rather than Johnny 'Guitar' Watson
> or nutritional sustenance in Cocoa Pops rather than meusli, or Tom Brokaw
> rather than Amy Goodman.
>
Most Americans don't find any of these people very signifigant.  It does
mean they're not worthy.  The systematic dumbing down of Americans (if they
don't read, they have no idea how horribly their country is run, and
therefore are not motivated to vote) has kept most of these people out of
the sort of public limelight that leads to celebrity (reknown, whatever you
call it).  But most Americans agree to it, and, often when I meet teachers,
I am appalled at who gets certified.  On the other hand, there's no armed
guard keeping anyone out of the library.  I spent a lot of time there, and I
don't think of myself as in any way remarkable.  As for what constitutes
American cultural life, the culture generally reflects the interests of the
people within it.  More people crave JLo than JZo.  I think Zorn knew that
going in, and he certainly seems to accept it.  As my favorite journalist,
Nick Tosches said, every country gets the entertainment it deserves.
>
> I find it sadder and more destructive to America's respect, self and
> otherwise, that anyone, including myself, bothers to pay any attention or
> who worships someone who can handle a ball better than one who can handle a
> classroom and is paid accordingly.  That and no one even bothers to yell
> "obscenity!"
>
Well, that's your cross to bear.  I get the feeling you hate the notion of
sports as a rule somehow.  Personally, the last real philsophical crisis I
faced was last yr when my home team (Lakers) was up against my hometown team
(76ers).  And don't get me started on boxing.

skip h


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "s~Z" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: radical jewish culture and other favorite Z-list topics
Date: 23 Mar 2002 15:01:37 -0800

>>>The life of the mind is the answer--in and of itself, with no
reduction to
use-value and no demand for application or "relevance."  Without a
capacity
to think, we can't see whether we are the effects of social and
political
stasis or potential movers of change.<<<

While it would be nice if this were true, the mind has no
Archimedean point
from which to make such objective differentiations.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: radical jewish culture and other favorite Z-list topics
Date: 23 Mar 2002 15:09:02 -0800

on 3/23/02 3:01 PM, s~Z at [e-mail] wrote:

>>>> The life of the mind is the answer--in and of itself, with no
> reduction to
> use-value and no demand for application or "relevance."  Without a
> capacity
> to think, we can't see whether we are the effects of social and
> political
> stasis or potential movers of change.<<<
>
> While it would be nice if this were true, the mind has no
> Archimedean point
> from which to make such objective differentiations.
>
what does "Archimedian" mean?

skip h


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "john schuller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Graham Haynes
Date: 23 Mar 2002 15:42:54 -0800



On Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 11:23:46AM -0000, Iain Kitt wrote:
> > Am I the only person finding Joseph and John's exchanges are  >becoming
> > increasingly tiresome?

>I certainly am.

If you were you would have answered my question a long time ago and we would
have been done.

Anyway, I saw a great show in Seattle the other night. Graham Haynes with
Eyvind Kang, Shazahd Ismaily and Kevin Sawka. Reminded me of Drum n Bass
meets Ponga. I can't remember the name of the group but the music was
outstanding. Shazahd is one of the most amazing bass players I have ever
heard. (as well as the nicest guy on the planet.) Is anyone here familiar
with his playing? Also, I haven't heard any of Graham Haynes other material.
Any recommendations?

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Graham Haynes
Date: 23 Mar 2002 15:49:27 -0800

on 3/23/02 3:42 PM, john schuller at [e-mail] wrote:

> Also, I haven't heard any of Graham Haynes other material.
> Any recommendations?

He plays beautifully on Don Byron's MUSIC FOR 6 MUSICIANS and Uri's SPHERE
MUSIC.

skip h


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ronald Hiznay <[e-mail]>
Subject: re: knocking on the gates
Date: 23 Mar 2002 16:17:03 -0800 (PST)

>ok - i was issued a challenge in one of my music
>theory classes to
>bring in a
>piece of music that is truly innovative and has never
>been done before.

The only thing that I can think of that I can not find
a derivation for (therefore being truly innovative)in
the past hundred or so years are the recent
inside-head sound movement which involves extremely
high or frequencies able to be played on the human ear
drum/resonant frequencies of jawbones, skulls, teeth,
etc....

You should check out some of the things that
Toshimaru Nakamura is or has been doing with no-input
mixing board and very very very high frequencies
although I don't really know how this will translate
to CD, as microphone placement, type, frequency range,
and the actual limit of 44100 Hz CD format have a
great effect on sine waves around 13000 Hz...
If you do buy any of these, do it to support Toshimaru
Nakamura, and don't bother listening to them very
much...(if you're wondering, I've seen Toshimaru
Nakamura several times and quite honestly never heard
anything remotely close to that on CD. There are times
when you can't hear sounds, you can only feel them in
your teeth, or as an unexplainable anxiety which goes
away when he switches notes)

and also Maryanne Amacher's "Ear Dances", probably the
definitive work of this genre, although I can't say
that these are exactly the way that Amacher wanted
them to sound (above reasons)they can also be very
hard to listen to as they begin to F*** with your
head...
I certainly can't recommend that you spend money on
any of her room pieces, as I've actually heard these
on CD and they're horrible, and I can't imagine that
they do her any justice.

although some people may argue that Amacher is a
derivative of Cage and that Toshimaru Nakamura is
simply a product of the Japanese noise scene.

>In C (Riley)
>Piano Phase (Reich)
>Stimmung (Stockhausen)
>any Ives symphony or concert band piece
>Symphony No. 1 (Branca)
>any old Sonic Youth album
>Velvet Underground with Nico (Warhol album)
>Pet Sounds (Beach Boys)
>any Meredith Monk

mmmmm....yeah, but none of that is "truely"
innovative....they're all quite

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: duncan youngerman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: radical biologically jewish culture
Date: 24 Mar 2002 01:32:27 +0100

Joseph Zitt a =E9crit :

> Someone once said that England and the US were two nations divided by
> a common language=2E I'm suspecting that this is even more true as
> English gets used elsewhere=2E It appears that, to some in Europe, the
> word "Radical" has rather different connotations than to
> Americans=2E That they insist that an artist stateside accept their use
> of the term, however, is akin to an American getting annoyed at the
> British use of the term "petrol" rather than "gasoline=2E"

(Joseph, you remind me of William Safire, an elegantly erudite Republican
linguist of sorts and political commentator who writes in the N=2EY=2ETimes=
=2E
Very keen on detail but astonishingly off-base on the larger picture=2E)

The real problem of this Radical Jewish niche lies elsewhere, and has nothin=
g to
do with superficial intercontinental semantics=2E
It has everything to do with:

1) the pretention of someone labeling/marketing one's own work as "Radical"(=
in
any sense of the term)=2E It's always been for critics or historians to even=
tually
decide whether someone's work or "culture" is that or not;

2) the pretention of an ultra-cosmopolitan post-modernist yuppie (there's
absolutely nothing wrong with being that, most of us on this list are precis=
ely
that) draping himself in aboriginal Jewishness, about as removed from his ow=
n
lifestyle as a Californian suburbanite is from an Amazonian Papoo Indian, wi=
thout
wanting to relinquish anything of his pluralistic, la=EFc, consummer society
comfort=2E "The prestige of ancient wisdom and suffering can be yours Now at
discount price!"

3) the tastelessly artificial insistence on nailing ethnic identity (with in=
 this
case an ambiguous dual dimension of race and religion) on sounds, at a time =
when
one had hoped the media exposure of ethnic cleaning in the Balkans, East Afr=
ica
or the occupied Palestinian territories would at least bring shame to those =
who
would wish to rekindle tribal fires=2E
There is no clearly drawn line in the sky where nationalism or racism begin =
and
end, but we will notice that it is often simply when someone places origin
(national, religious or racial) above all other considerations=2E This of co=
urse
has for effect to make the excluded (and even many of the included) feel ver=
y
uncomfortable, and, since the mid-20th century, sad and worried that the les=
sons
of history have been in vain, even among the educated=2E
Apparently the rationalisation for this particular case was Jazz, supposedly
"black radical culture", a very poor and narrow reading of this rich and ope=
n
musical form=2E The term "Jazz" was at first synonym for another, more famou=
s
4-letter word starting with F, and never had the slightest pretentions or
self-awareness as any kind of "radical culture" whether based on race or
religion=2E It was good-time music, often a parody or cover of European oper=
a, folk
or marching tunes=2E The fact most of its players were black was fascinating=
 to
whites much more than to themselves=2E Never could such fresh, playful, incl=
usive,
unpretentious music have sprung out of such a closed, normative, cerebral
self-definition=2E

4) the appropriation of popular musicians like Burt Bacharach or Serge Gains=
bourg
under this artificial umbrella, confirming its racist essence, since, at lea=
st as
far as Gainsbourg is concerned, there has never been anything in his work,
lifestyle or beliefs that could in any way be connected with Jewish religion=
 or
culture=2E Therefore the only justification for his being displayed in this =
niche
is, like a dog, his biological species=2E

Artists has gone overboard in the past and made embarassing mistakes (some
irreparable) when trying to overreach their medium into the realm of social,
political or spiritual matters=2E Wagner with racism and nationalism, Ezra P=
ound
with fascism, Eluard or Picasso with stalinism, Chic Corea with scientology=
=2E=2E=2E

I don't see any real threat coming out of Zorn's cute self-definition game, =
but I
do find it disapointingly reactionary, and tasteless=2E

D=2E

(P=2ES=2E) God!=2E=2E=2E is it actually that important to me in the first pl=
ace that I have
to spend an hour of my precious time argumenting it for the umpeenth time!?
hopefully the last=2E)




>


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: knocking on the gates
Date: 23 Mar 2002 16:38:14 -0800

on 3/23/02 4:17 PM, Ronald Hiznay at [e-mail] wrote:

>> Pet Sounds (Beach Boys)

not innovative? there are some textural and structural things in there that
are completely innovative, not just to the context, but in the most basic
sense of the word.  What BW brought to songwriting and arranging is up there
with Burt Bacharach and Stevie Wonder (who are so high up the I get kirnks
in my neck just mentioning the three of them in one sentence).

skip h


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Julian" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: radical biologically jewish culture
Date: 24 Mar 2002 11:49:23 +1100

<< 4) the appropriation of popular musicians like Burt Bacharach or Serge
Gainsbourg
under this artificial umbrella, confirming its racist essence, since, at
least as
far as Gainsbourg is concerned, there has never been anything in his work,
lifestyle or beliefs that could in any way be connected with Jewish religion
or
culture. Therefore the only justification for his being displayed in this
niche
is, like a dog, his biological species. >>

While I agree mostly with your email, I do think that in this point, the
incongruity is intentional. Sure Zorn may do some things that stretch the
truth a little, but in this case I think he may actually be exercising a
little tongue in cheek. He's produced these three tributes to musicians he
likes, and because they are Jewish he's given them the funny title of 'Great
Jewish Music'. Well, it may not be literally funny, but it is to him I'm
sure...


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: knocking on the gates
Date: 23 Mar 2002 19:54:33 EST


--part1_36.2504e705.29ce7dc9_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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Well see, I was taking this challenge a lot more deeply than most responses
have seemed to indicate, and I've been wracking my brain to think of
something I find completely innovative. The only possible candidate I can
come up with so far is MAYBE (and I'm not entirely convinced myself) Harry
Partch. As much of a landmark as Pet Sounds is (and I do have the utmost
respect for it) what does it offer that you couldn't get from crossing, say,
the Four Lads with Aaron Copeland?

Dale.

In a message dated 3/23/2002 7:35:41 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:


> Pet Sounds (Beach Boys)
>
> not innovative? there are some textural and structural things in there that
> are completely innovative, not just to the context, but in the most basic
> sense of the word.  What BW brought to songwriting and arranging is up
> there
> with Burt Bacharach and Stevie Wonder (who are so high up the I get kirnks
> in my neck just mentioning the three of them in one sentence).
>


--part1_36.2504e705.29ce7dc9_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  COLOR="#0000a0" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SCRIPT" FACE="Comic Sans MS" LANG="0"><B>Well see, I was taking this challenge a lot more deeply than most responses have seemed to indicate, and I've been wracking my brain to think of something I find completely innovative. The only <I>possible</I> candidate I can come up with so far is MAYBE (and I'm not entirely convinced myself) Harry Partch. As much of a landmark as Pet Sounds is (and I do have the utmost respect for it) what does it offer that you couldn't get from crossing, say, the Four Lads with Aaron Copeland?<BR>
<BR>
Dale.<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 3/23/2002 7:35:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, [e-mail] writes:<BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></B><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Pet Sounds (Beach Boys)<BR>
<BR>
not innovative? there are some textural and structural things in there that<BR>
are completely innovative, not just to the context, but in the most basic<BR>
sense of the word.  What BW brought to songwriting and arranging is up there<BR>
with Burt Bacharach and Stevie Wonder (who are so high up the I get kirnks<BR>
in my neck just mentioning the three of them in one sentence).<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0000a0" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SCRIPT" FACE="Comic Sans MS" LANG="0"><B><BR>
</B></FONT></HTML>
--part1_36.2504e705.29ce7dc9_boundary--

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: duncan youngerman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: radical biologically jewish culture
Date: 24 Mar 2002 01:57:18 +0100



Julian a =E9crit :

> << 4) the appropriation of popular musicians like Burt Bacharach or Serge
> Gainsbourg
> under this artificial umbrella, confirming its racist essence, since, at
> least as
> far as Gainsbourg is concerned, there has never been anything in his work,
> lifestyle or beliefs that could in any way be connected with Jewish religi=
on
> or
> culture=2E Therefore the only justification for his being displayed in thi=
s
> niche
> is, like a dog, his biological species=2E >>
>
> While I agree mostly with your email, I do think that in this point, the
> incongruity is intentional=2E Sure Zorn may do some things that stretch th=
e
> truth a little, but in this case I think he may actually be exercising a
> little tongue in cheek=2E He's produced these three tributes to musicians =
he
> likes, and because they are Jewish he's given them the funny title of 'Gre=
at
> Jewish Music'=2E Well, it may not be literally funny, but it is to him I'm
> sure=2E=2E=2E

I'll accept that it can be funny if he accepts that it can be irritating=2E

D=2E


>
>


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: radical jewish culture and other favorite Z-list topics
Date: 23 Mar 2002 19:48:26 -0600

On Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 03:01:37PM -0800, s~Z wrote:
> >>>The life of the mind is the answer--in and of itself, with no
> reduction to
> use-value and no demand for application or "relevance."  Without a
> capacity
> to think, we can't see whether we are the effects of social and
> political
> stasis or potential movers of change.<<<
>
> While it would be nice if this were true, the mind has no
> Archimedean point
> from which to make such objective differentiations.

As with other points in this discussion, it's not an either/or. Of
course we are to some extent the effects of social and political
stasis.  And of course we are potential movers of change. And
recognizing each is crucial to recognizing the other.

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Julian" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: radical biologically jewish culture
Date: 24 Mar 2002 11:59:22 +1100

> I'll accept that it can be funny if he accepts that it can be irritating.

Well yeah, I'm sure that's another one of his goals...


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: knocking on the gates
Date: 23 Mar 2002 20:06:12 -0600

On Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 04:38:14PM -0800, skip Heller wrote:
> on 3/23/02 4:17 PM, Ronald Hiznay at [e-mail] wrote:
>
> >> Pet Sounds (Beach Boys)
>
> not innovative? there are some textural and structural things in there that
> are completely innovative, not just to the context, but in the most basic
> sense of the word.  What BW brought to songwriting and arranging is up there
> with Burt Bacharach and Stevie Wonder (who are so high up the I get kirnks
> in my neck just mentioning the three of them in one sentence).

Which reminds me: the one "I have never heard anything like this
before" experience that I recall was first hearing Public Image
Ltd. in college.  Yeah, they had roots in dub, etc, but I don't know
of anything before that resembled what happened when Keith Levine's
guitar, John Lydon's voice, and Jah Wobble's guitar (and the drummer,
who I don't recall, and didn't seem too interesting) first came
together.

One problem with these kinda questions are that things that seem
utterly unprecedented and without context when they first appear often
are contextualized by what comes out in their wake. For example,
having the archival John Cale/La Monte Young/Angus MacLise et al
releases that have come out in the last couple of years put the Velvet
Underground in context to some extent. Would they have sounded quite
so groundbreaking if these earlier materials were better known?

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: radical biologically jewish culture
Date: 23 Mar 2002 20:10:29 -0600

On Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 01:57:18AM +0100, duncan youngerman wrote:

> > While I agree mostly with your email, I do think that in this point, the
> > incongruity is intentional. Sure Zorn may do some things that stretch the
> > truth a little, but in this case I think he may actually be exercising a
> > little tongue in cheek. He's produced these three tributes to musicians he
> > likes, and because they are Jewish he's given them the funny title of 'Great
> > Jewish Music'. Well, it may not be literally funny, but it is to him I'm
> > sure...
>
> I'll accept that it can be funny if he accepts that it can be irritating.

I suspect that being irritating has never bothered Zorn :-)

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: knocking on the gates
Date: 23 Mar 2002 17:27:06 -0800

on 3/23/02 6:06 PM, Joseph Zitt at [e-mail] wrote:

> One problem with these kinda questions are that things that seem
> utterly unprecedented and without context when they first appear often
> are contextualized by what comes out in their wake. For example,
> having the archival John Cale/La Monte Young/Angus MacLise et al
> releases that have come out in the last couple of years put the Velvet
> Underground in context to some extent. Would they have sounded quite
> so groundbreaking if these earlier materials were better known?

Probably not.  But they were the ones who could secure a record deal, so
they were responsible for getting a certain kind of information out to the
consumership.  And, interestingly, that the C/YMacL stuff has appeared does
not seemed to have changed anyone's most basic reactions -- good or bad --
to the VU.

skip h

PS PiL's FLOWERS OF ROMANCE definitely belongs on my list of groundbreaking
records.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: knocking on the gates
Date: 23 Mar 2002 17:29:44 -0800

> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

--MS_Mac_OE_3099749384_2000900_MIME_Part
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

on 3/23/02 4:54 PM, [e-mail] at [e-mail] wrote:

Well see, I was taking this challenge a lot more deeply than most responses
have seemed to indicate, and I've been wracking my brain to think of
something I find completely innovative. The only possible candidate I can
come up with so far is MAYBE (and I'm not entirely convinced myself) Harry
Partch. As much of a landmark as Pet Sounds is (and I do have the utmost
respect for it) what does it offer that you couldn't get from crossing, say,
the Four Lads with Aaron Copeland?

Dale.


A Chinese guy for whom I played Partch shrugged and said it sounded an
awfully lot like kabuki theater music with extra percussion, so maybe Bill
Evans was right -- one's notion of innovation is closely tied to the culture
in which you're raised.

As for your PET SOUNDS theory, I can only say that I never heard Copeland's
work with the Four Lads.

skip h

--MS_Mac_OE_3099749384_2000900_MIME_Part
Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Re: knocking on the gates</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
on 3/23/02 4:54 PM, [e-mail] at [e-mail] wrote:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000A0"><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Comic Sans MS"=
><B>Well see, I was taking this challenge a lot more deeply than most respon=
ses have seemed to indicate, and I've been wracking my brain to think of som=
ething I find completely innovative. The only <I>possible</I> candidate I ca=
n come up with so far is MAYBE (and I'm not entirely convinced myself) Harry=
 Partch. As much of a landmark as Pet Sounds is (and I do have the utmost re=
spect for it) what does it offer that you couldn't get from crossing, say, t=
he Four Lads with Aaron Copeland?<BR>
<BR>
Dale.<BR>
</B></FONT></FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000A0"><FONT FACE=3D"Com=
ic Sans MS"><H5><BR>
</H5></FONT></FONT><BR>
A Chinese guy for whom I played Partch shrugged and said it sounded an awfu=
lly lot like kabuki theater music with extra percussion, so maybe Bill Evans=
 was right -- one's notion of innovation is closely tied to the culture in w=
hich you're raised.<BR>
<BR>
As for your PET SOUNDS theory, I can only say that I never heard Copeland's=
 work with the Four Lads.<BR>
<BR>
skip h
</BODY>
</HTML>


--MS_Mac_OE_3099749384_2000900_MIME_Part--


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "s~Z" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: radical jewish culture and other favorite Z-list topics
Date: 23 Mar 2002 17:51:26 -0800

>>>As with other points in this discussion, it's not an either/or.
Of
course we are to some extent the effects of social and political
stasis.  And of course we are potential movers of change. And
recognizing each is crucial to recognizing the other.<<<

Deep thought, man. Deep thought.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: radical jewish culture and other favorite Z-list topics
Date: 24 Mar 2002 02:13:07 +0000

>From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>

>But most Americans agree to it, and, often when I meet teachers,
>I am appalled at who gets certified.

Well, that in itself is a general reflection of the larger intellectual
culture in the states.  It's also a reflection of the many who finally got
fed up and left the field and the low salaries to the less qualified.  I've
been reading a lot of sad stories in the NY Times of late about this
problem.

> >
>Well, that's your cross to bear.

Well, judging from Columbine and other cases, it's a cross we're all going
to be bearing, in one form or another, from now on.  As a tribute to the
education system, we might have a mediocre intellect chosen by a fleet set
of justices to manage a very powerful country's foreign policy to the
detriment of many both inside and outside the republic.

>I get the feeling you hate the notion of
>sports as a rule somehow.  Personally, the last real philsophical crisis I
>faced was last yr when my home team (Lakers) was up against my hometown
>team
>(76ers).  And don't get me started on boxing.

Sports as a "rule" or as a "ruler"?  I'm actually a sports fan.  Following
the NCAA's at the moment in fact.  But let's keep it all in perspective.
When Michael Jordan earns more from his Nike contract than all the people
who make the shoes in a given locale, when half of the public university
courseload is now taught by part-time instructors without benefits, and when
a mediocre sub on the Knicks makes far more in a year than some of these
folks make in a lifetime, something is severely out of wack.  And if we
can't see that as a problem, then we've got no moral scruples whatsoever.




_________________________________________________________________
Join the worldÆs largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
http://www.hotmail.com


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: radical jewish culture and other favorite Z-list topics
Date: 23 Mar 2002 18:34:49 -0800

on 3/23/02 6:13 PM, Bill Ashline at [e-mail] wrote:

>judging from Columbine and other cases, it's a cross we're all going
> to be bearing, in one form or another, from now on.  As a tribute to the
> education system, we might have a mediocre intellect chosen by a fleet set
> of justices to manage a very powerful country's foreign policy to the
> detriment of many both inside and outside the republic.

This is a problem that dates back to John Wayne movies, unfortunately.  It
has only gotten worse as more and more high-level blockbuster movies espouse
that same philsophy of "good guys shoot their tormentors with big guns".  On
the other hand, if you're the kind of guy who's gonna get a gun and shoot
people in the name of vindication, whether or not there's a Terminator movie
(or a heavy metal record) probably has little to do with the reality that
you're gonna shoot people.  A Gumby cartoon could set you off in you're that
far out there.  A little hands-on parenting wouldn't hurt, but few parents
seem to want to move past "quality time".  Between this and poor education
-- despite those few teachers who are trying whatever they can to give their
students something useful -- we've got some serious problems.

And I agree with you about the mediocre minds defining our country's
policies.  Except that I don't think it "might happen".  I think that in
many ways we're seeing it in action.


>when
> a mediocre sub on the Knicks makes far more in a year than some of these
> folks make in a lifetime, something is severely out of wack.  And if we
> can't see that as a problem, then we've got no moral scruples whatsoever.
>
Then I've got no morals whatsoever.  You know how much work Shaq and Kobe
generate for how many people? These guys aren't basketball players --
they're economies.  If the start-up money for those economies is obscene
(and it is), then just imagine how many dollars go 'round to keep that stuff
in business.

If it was Cecil taylor pulling in that kind of dough, nobody -- myself
included -- around these parts would complain.  But I submit that what a
truly great basketball player does is just as specialized as what a great
piano player does, especially when you consider how many tangental
industries are made possible by putting that guy's face on t-shirts etc.  I
agree about the mediocre sub guys.  There really should be a salary cap
based on some ind of statistical evidence of consistent performance ability.
But I think the leading lights in any entertainment endeavor -- music,
sports, sculpture -- are worth whatever it takes to have them (he said as he
remembered what Dr J did for the local morale when he was growing up in
Philly).

skip h


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: toshimaru nakamura.
Date: 24 Mar 2002 01:24:28 EST


In a message dated 03.23.02 19.17.29, [e-mail] writes:

>You should check out some of the things that
>Toshimaru Nakamura is or has been doing with no-input
>mixing board and very very very high frequencies
>although I don't really know how this will translate
>to CD, as microphone placement, type, frequency range,
>and the actual limit of 44100 Hz CD format have a
>great effect on sine waves around 13000 Hz...
>If you do buy any of these, do it to support Toshimaru
>Nakamura, and don't bother listening to them very
>much...(if you're wondering, I've seen Toshimaru
>Nakamura several times and quite honestly never heard
>anything remotely close to that on CD. There are times
>when you can't hear sounds, you can only feel them in
>your teeth, or as an unexplainable anxiety which goes
>away when he switches notes)

i just had to jump in here - i saw plaid with toshimaru nakamura last night
at the metro in chicago, and he actually blew plaid away, in my opinion.  it
was physically painful at times, and made me have to go to the bathroom, but
it was intensely cool.  and his visual aspect was intensely cool, too.

mmm.

plaid had a computer crash in mid-set which was weak as hell.  i was pissed.

love,
  k8.




---
[.n0thing.is.what.is.sAid.]
k a t e  p e t e r s o n
c o m p o s e r / p e r f o r m e r

http://www.geocities.com/uforbk8/kate.html
http://www.icefoundation.org (roundtable)

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: toshimaru nakamura.
Date: 24 Mar 2002 01:23:56 -0600

On Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 01:24:28AM -0500, [e-mail] wrote:

> plaid had a computer crash in mid-set which was weak as hell.  i was pissed.

How did they deal with it? Considering the crankiness of some of the
computers I've dealt with in performance, I don't think I'd dare
perform without a backup plan of how to continue while rebooting.

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: toshimaru nakamura.
Date: 24 Mar 2002 01:35:56 EST


In a message dated 03.24.02 01.33.45, [e-mail] writes:

>How did they deal with it? Considering the crankiness of some of the
>computers I've dealt with in performance, I don't think I'd dare
>perform without a backup plan of how to continue while rebooting.

it's a little unclear how they dealt with it.  they had two G4 powerbooks
going, but i don't know how they were generating sound - in a lot of ways it
sounded as though they could have just been jockeying off of mp3 but i hope
that's not the case - in any event, i'm pretty sure that they split the
sounds per song up amongst the two computers.  so one guy took over
completely while the other guy rebooted.  there were a few seconds of sucky
silence, and they had to change songs 'cause it was all fucked up...

computers can really suck live.

k




---
[.n0thing.is.what.is.sAid.]
k a t e  p e t e r s o n
c o m p o s e r / p e r f o r m e r

http://www.geocities.com/uforbk8/kate.html
http://www.icefoundation.org (roundtable)

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: toshimaru nakamura.
Date: 23 Mar 2002 23:19:08 -0800


> computers can really suck live.
>
> k
>
gee, what was your first clue?

sh


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: hiphop
Date: 24 Mar 2002 02:18:25 EST

Somehow I doubt it.

jb

> you'll be rooting for him to exact revenge.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "nors5379" <[e-mail]>
Subject: re: graham haynes/big gundown live?
Date: 24 Mar 2002 08:01:37 GMT

i am relatively new to graham haynes, but the knit factory
sent me 2 of his discs this past christmas when they had the
buy 3 get 2 free sale. one was opera zone with bill laswell,
and upon receiving i thought it was oging to be real lousy
album (first thought was... electronica opera?) but its a
really solid disc. something you can throw in for background
music and it sets the mood quite well. the other disc was
RPM, which i havent given much of a listen to but it does
have that drum and bass kind of vibe that was mentioned with
the group in seattle.
my other question is, is there any such thing as a LIVE big
gundown? i pulled out the disc earlier this week and was
absolutely blown away once again. i guess i just want to
hear how that would be pulled off if it was live.
-darryl.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: David Beardsley <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: knocking on the gates
Date: 24 Mar 2002 03:11:22 -0500

Re: knocking on the gates----- Original Message -----

>A Chinese guy for whom I played Partch shrugged and said it
>sounded an awfully lot like kabuki theater music with extra percussion,
>so maybe Bill Evans was right -- one's notion of innovation is closely
>tied to the culture in which you're raised.

If I remember correctly and I probably don't, Partch's parents
were missionaries in China and he spent his early years there.

The problem with this theory is that Kabuki is a traditional form of
Japanese theater.

It's not like he wasn't familiar with Kabuki - he mentions it
a few times in first chapter of Genesis of a Music - he seems
to have been a bit of an ethnomusicologist, being familiar
with many types of opera and musical theatre that he used as
an influence on his own music.

Sort of a lapsed Partch  scholar (this being of course, me)
who can only vaguely remember the facts...


* David Beardsley
* http://biink.com
* http://mp3.com/davidbeardsley



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: knocking on the gates
Date: 24 Mar 2002 00:25:31 -0800

on 3/24/02 12:11 AM, David Beardsley at [e-mail] wrote:

> Re: knocking on the gates----- Original Message -----
> From: skip Heller
>
>> A Chinese guy for whom I played Partch shrugged and said it
>> sounded an awfully lot like kabuki theater music with extra percussion,
>> so maybe Bill Evans was right -- one's notion of innovation is closely
>> tied to the culture in which you're raised.
>
> If I remember correctly and I probably don't, Partch's parents
> were missionaries in China and he spent his early years there.
>
> The problem with this theory is that Kabuki is a traditional form of
> Japanese theater.

The guy in question spent as much time in Japan as he did in Taiwan (he was
an industro brat).

> It's not like he wasn't familiar with Kabuki - he mentions it
> a few times in first chapter of Genesis of a Music - he seems
> to have been a bit of an ethnomusicologist, being familiar
> with many types of opera and musical theatre that he used as
> an influence on his own music.
>
> Sort of a lapsed Partch  scholar (this being of course, me)
> who can only vaguely remember the facts...
>
Big problem with being an amatuer Partch scholar (I share this with you) --
Barstow (the town, not the composition) is a letdown.  One very
dead-from-the-dick-up town with bad weather and a zillion meth labs.  And I
couldn't find Monrovia St besides.

skip h

skip h


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: David Beardsley <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: knocking on the gates
Date: 24 Mar 2002 03:48:11 -0500

----- Original Message -----
<[e-mail]>
Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2002 3:25 AM


> on 3/24/02 12:11 AM, David Beardsley at [e-mail] wrote:
>
> > Re: knocking on the gates----- Original Message -----
> > From: skip Heller
> >
> >> A Chinese guy for whom I played Partch shrugged and said it
> >> sounded an awfully lot like kabuki theater music with extra percussion,
> >> so maybe Bill Evans was right -- one's notion of innovation is closely
> >> tied to the culture in which you're raised.
> >
> > If I remember correctly and I probably don't, Partch's parents
> > were missionaries in China and he spent his early years there.
> >
> > The problem with this theory is that Kabuki is a traditional form of
> > Japanese theater.
>
> The guy in question spent as much time in Japan as he did in Taiwan (he
was
> an industro brat).

OK


> > It's not like he wasn't familiar with Kabuki - he mentions it
> > a few times in first chapter of Genesis of a Music - he seems
> > to have been a bit of an ethnomusicologist, being familiar
> > with many types of opera and musical theatre that he used as
> > an influence on his own music.
> >
> > Sort of a lapsed Partch  scholar (this being of course, me)
> > who can only vaguely remember the facts...
> >
> Big problem with being an amatuer Partch scholar (I share this with
you) --

If I just read the facts recently I'd be a bit more up on this.
I'd suggest contacting my friends at http://www.corporeal.com/cm_main.html
to clear things up.

> Barstow (the town, not the composition) is a letdown.  One very
> dead-from-the-dick-up town with bad weather and a zillion meth labs.  And
I
> couldn't find Monrovia St besides.

Wasn't the the whole point? Barstow is no where! A real dead end,
even today!


* David Beardsley
* http://biink.com
* http://mp3.com/davidbeardsley



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Verstraeten Stefan" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn List Digest V3 #847
Date: 24 Mar 2002 10:00:29 +0100

Totally second this opinion.
Just check out the archives from some years ago...
You had stuff like
-recent goodies (in wich brian and steve were great contributors; this
subjects contained more and better reviews than in any other magazine)
-different attitudes (I remember f.e. that joseph gave interesting help
towards the use of "cartridge music" in merzbows music... definitely not the
tone he is using now and recently)
-....

Yes, Joseph and others, don't start another discussion please.... I DO
KNOW..
-that I sound old-fashioned,
-that i don't realize that people change,
-that I live in the past,
-that i don't have an open mind,

But fuck, this list has changed, and i regret this very hard...

Stefan Verstraeten
(a stupid person who better shuts his mouth)

> From: "Iain Kitt" <[e-mail]>
> Subject: Joseph and John
>
> Am I the only person finding Joseph and John's exchanges are  becoming
> increasingly tiresome? Please carry on guys if you want to but can you not
> do it off list?
>
> Iain



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: radical jewish culture and other favorite Z-list topics
Date: 24 Mar 2002 09:51:16 +0000

>From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>

>Then I've got no morals whatsoever.  You know how much work Shaq and Kobe
>generate for how many people? These guys aren't basketball players --
>they're economies.  If the start-up money for those economies is obscene
>(and it is), then just imagine how many dollars go 'round to keep that
>stuff
>in business.

Well, the only reason that these ball players can constitute economies is
because we supply the attention.  Take that away and give it somewhere else,
like education or creative training, and make sports the leisure activity as
it is and reward it accordingly, and we might see the jobs located somewhere
else.  Why does the guy who sells his endorsement get 20 million a year and
the guy who makes the shoes get only 300 bucks?  A lack of intelligent
priorities.  When I see MJ speaking up for the factory workers in Jakarta
I'll feel better about him.


>
>But I think the leading lights in any entertainment endeavor -- music,
>sports, sculpture -- are worth whatever it takes to have them (he said as
>he
>remembered what Dr J did for the local morale when he was growing up in
>Philly).

Well, just as a thought experiment, let me ask you--what has provided a
greater service in your life?  Learning to appreciate a three-pointer by
Allen Iverson or learning how to read and write and do basic math problems?
I'm going to jump ahead and assume, perhaps wrongly, the latter.  In which
case, why does the former deserve 500 times as much money as the one who
trains in the latter?  Why is it we can remember Kareem Jabbar but can't
recall the teacher who taught us the most fundamental skills to get by in
life?  My wager is that the seductive spectacle is more immediately
compelling than the hard, arduous labor of learning and teaching.  Once
again, misplaced priorities.  We've learned to take our most basic education
(and our educators) for granted.



_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: aaron chua <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Opinions on Wolfgang Rihm?
Date: 24 Mar 2002 04:33:48 -0800 (PST)


this thread has actually made me pull out the 2 discs
of his i have (both on kairos).

  Trios - trio recherche
  Musik fur drei Streicher - ensemble recherche

one of the main reasons for picking up the trio disc
fr me was the presence of teodoro anzellotti on one of
the pieces which happens to be the one that struck me
the most. the piece Am Horizont is fr violin , cello
and accordeon. rather slow, meditative. quietly
beautiful.

the ensemble disc sounds fine to these ears though i
don't claim to have very discerning tastes. i don't
play this very often ( actually might have been the
first time i listened to it all the way through
tonight) but that may be more for reasons of my
shortening attention span these days.

i vaguely remember reading somewhere that morton
feldman considered him one of the better new composers
for whatever thats worth.

rgrds
aaron
np Am Horizont - Rihm (funnily enough)

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards«
http://movies.yahoo.com/

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Mathieu =?iso-8859-1?Q?B=E9langer?=  <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: toshimaru nakamura.
Date: 24 Mar 2002 10:52:17 -0500

Hello,

>i just had to jump in here - i saw plaid with toshimaru nakamura last night
>at the metro in chicago, and he actually blew plaid away, in my opinion.  it
>was physically painful at times, and made me have to go to the bathroom, but
>it was intensely cool.  and his visual aspect was intensely cool, too.

Just curious... You saw Toshimaru Nakamura or Nobukazu Takemura? As
far as I know, Nobukazu Takemura is opening for Plaid on this tour...
But I could be wrong as this is based some sort of flyer I picked up.
Not to mention that I have no real interest in Plaid or Takemura, but
that's another story!

Tschuss,

Mathieu

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ronald Hiznay <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Nakamura Toshimaru (and Other Nakamura's seeking Vindication)
Date: 24 Mar 2002 08:06:43 -0800 (PST)

k8,

Wow, I'm going to have to call you on this one, you
have your Nakamuras confused...I thought something was
a little suspicious about your e-mail when I saw
Nakamura Toshimaru in person attending an Otomo
Yoshihide show in Tokyo tonight....so I did a little
research on the Metro in Chicago, from what I can find
on Google who you really saw was Dan "The Automator"
Nakamura, which is really ironic vindication for a
comment that I recently made as I told you the other
day that the Dr Octogon CD was a dj Q-Bert thing, when
Q-bert only appears on Blue Flowers....
when really most of the production was done by Dan
"The Automator" Nakamura.

mushmush

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards«
http://movies.yahoo.com/

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: How Come? INSTANT POLL
Date: 24 Mar 2002 11:50:31 EST

How about "no where to run"

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: radical jewish culture and other favorite Z-list topics
Date: 24 Mar 2002 09:03:35 -0800

on 3/24/02 1:51 AM, Bill Ashline at [e-mail] wrote:


> Well, the only reason that these ball players can constitute economies is
> because we supply the attention.  Take that away and give it somewhere else,
> like education or creative training, and make sports the leisure activity as
> it is and reward it accordingly, and we might see the jobs located somewhere
> else.  Why does the guy who sells his endorsement get 20 million a year and
> the guy who makes the shoes get only 300 bucks?  A lack of intelligent
> priorities.  When I see MJ speaking up for the factory workers in Jakarta
> I'll feel better about him.
>
Feel how you wish.  The guy is a rare and fantastic athlete.  At the same
time, how many musicians are making a point to look into the union benefits
package afforded the guys who press CD's?

> Well, just as a thought experiment, let me ask you--what has provided a
> greater service in your life?  Learning to appreciate a three-pointer by
> Allen Iverson or learning how to read and write and do basic math problems?
> I'm going to jump ahead and assume, perhaps wrongly, the latter.  In which
> case, why does the former deserve 500 times as much money as the one who
> trains in the latter?  Why is it we can remember Kareem Jabbar but can't
> recall the teacher who taught us the most fundamental skills to get by in
> life?  My wager is that the seductive spectacle is more immediately
> compelling than the hard, arduous labor of learning and teaching.  Once
> again, misplaced priorities.  We've learned to take our most basic education
> (and our educators) for granted.
>

I remember -- and learned deeply from -- guys like Henry Aaron, who
presented such a sharp, clear picture of dignity and fair play to a lot of
us at an early age that it was every bit as notable and miraculous as his
home run crown.  I thought then and think now he was a fantastic role model,
especially in light of the racist bullshit he dealt with.  Death threats
from crackers who didn't want him to break a white man's record didn;t turn
him into Al Sharpton.  I always admired that (especially growing up in the
Philadelphia run by Frank Rizzo).

And I remember the teachers who gave me all the important tools.  My high
school music teacher is still one of my better friends.  I never took those
people for granted.  With the many rancid excuses for teachers I had, the
good and great ones were nothing less than beacons.

skip h


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: How Come? INSTANT POLL
Date: 24 Mar 2002 09:06:58 -0800

on 3/24/02 8:50 AM, [e-mail] at [e-mail] wrote:

> How about "no where to run"
>
> -
>
I was thinking "In My Room", or, for you Bill Evans fans, perhaps "The Two
Lonely People"

sh


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dave Trenkel <[e-mail]>
Subject: re: graham haynes/big gundown live?
Date: 24 Mar 2002 09:36:56 -0800

At 8:01 AM +0000 3/24/2002, nors5379 wrote:
>i am relatively new to graham haynes, but the knit factory
>sent me 2 of his discs this past christmas when they had the
>buy 3 get 2 free sale. one was opera zone with bill laswell,
>and upon receiving i thought it was oging to be real lousy
>album (first thought was... electronica opera?) but its a
>really solid disc. something you can throw in for background
>music and it sets the mood quite well. the other disc was
>RPM, which i havent given much of a listen to but it does
>have that drum and bass kind of vibe that was mentioned with
>the group in seattle.

Hayne's KF disc is actually called "BPM", and is, I think, one of the
better jazz meets drum 'n bass discs. It starts out with a piece that
layers a Wagner orchestral loop with Brazilian  percussion, a
combination that never fails to crack me up. Haynes has a couple of
earlier discs that use electronics, that, while I don't think they're
as successful as BPM, might be worth looking into, I liked parts of
his "Tones for the 21st Century" quite a lot. Also, he appears on a
lot of recent Laswell discs.



--
Dave Trenkel                                New and Improv Music
http://www.newandimprov.com         [e-mail]


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn List Digest V3 #847
Date: 24 Mar 2002 12:33:16 -0600

On Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 10:00:29AM +0100, Verstraeten Stefan wrote:

> -different attitudes (I remember f.e. that joseph gave interesting help
> towards the use of "cartridge music" in merzbows music... definitely not the
> tone he is using now and recently)

Hmm... since I hadn't heard Merzbow until a few months ago, I wonder
what I might have said about his music in the past... :-)

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Mike Chamberlain <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: radical jewish culture and other favorite Z-list topics
Date: 24 Mar 2002 12:51:53 -0500



> on 3/24/02 1:51 AM, Bill Ashline at [e-mail] wrote:
>
>

>> Well, just as a thought experiment, let me ask you--what has provided a
>> greater service in your life?  Learning to appreciate a three-pointer by
>> Allen Iverson or learning how to read and write and do basic math problems?
>> I'm going to jump ahead and assume, perhaps wrongly, the latter.  In which
>> case, why does the former deserve 500 times as much money as the one who
>> trains in the latter?  Why is it we can remember Kareem Jabbar but can't
>> recall the teacher who taught us the most fundamental skills to get by in
>> life?  My wager is that the seductive spectacle is more immediately
>> compelling than the hard, arduous labor of learning and teaching.  Once
>> again, misplaced priorities.  We've learned to take our most basic education
>> (and our educators) for granted.
>>
>
Bill, the sad fact is that my courses are not broadcast around the world on
TV, and nobody pays millions in ad time for those non-existent broadcasts.
The day that starts happening, that's the day that my pay will come a little
more in line with Iverson's.

--Mike


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Verstraeten Stefan" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn List Digest V3 #847
Date: 24 Mar 2002 20:40:12 +0100

Hello,
The reason you answered was because the merzbox contained some cds that were
based on john cages cartridge music.
You explained:
-what this music was
-where it came from
-how this could be recognised

Anyway, it was a great help that i got from you and helped me on how to
experience merbows music a lot better...

But as said, the whole discussion had a different tone than we have these
days...

Ps Thanks for all the warm kind words off-line from a lot of zornlisters
(some of them I remember years ago). It seems that a lot more people want
the return of "the old zornlist".... but hey, who knows, one day....

Best wishes,
Stefan Verstraeten

[e-mail]

----- Original Message -----
Cc: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2002 7:33 PM


> On Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 10:00:29AM +0100, Verstraeten Stefan wrote:
>
> > -different attitudes (I remember f.e. that joseph gave interesting help
> > towards the use of "cartridge music" in merzbows music... definitely not
the
> > tone he is using now and recently)
>
> Hmm... since I hadn't heard Merzbow until a few months ago, I wonder
> what I might have said about his music in the past... :-)
>
> --
> | [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
> | New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
> |                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
> | Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
> | Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |
>
>


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rich Williams <[e-mail]>
Subject: re: graham haynes/big gundown live?
Date: 24 Mar 2002 16:46:32 -0500

>my other question is, is there any such thing as a LIVE big
>gundown? i pulled out the disc earlier this week and was
>absolutely blown away once again. i guess i just want to
>hear how that would be pulled off if it was live.
>-darryl.

    It was performed at BAM in 86 and in Europe in 88. The NYC
show was very well done, 15-20 musicians. Milano Odea performed with
4 guitarists (Frith,Arto,Quine,Frisell) and Shelley Hirsh singing on
Erotico
were highlights for me.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "john schuller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Cd and  Vinyl Pressing question
Date: 24 Mar 2002 13:59:39 -0800

Does anyone here have experience with getting CD's and/or Vinyl pressed? I
am hoping for any help in the areas of "use these guys" or "avoid these
guys".

Thanks,
John


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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: radical jewish culture and other favorite Z-list topics
Date: 24 Mar 2002 23:11:34 +0000

>From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>

  At the same
>time, how many musicians are making a point to look into the union benefits
>package afforded the guys who press CD's?

good point, skip.

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Nirav Soni" <[e-mail]>
Subject: "...than a spoonfull of starmatter"
Date: 24 Mar 2002 18:35:31 -0500

y'all,

I've become kinda curious about some of the more metallic things a propos to
this list via "Leng T'che" .
What I seek is the slow, the cataclysmic, monstrously dense, epic (not so
much the sword and sorcery styled epic, but the soul collapsing in on it
self...the subjectively epic). Rocking is good, rocking with experiemental
tendancies is even
better. I've heard good things about Boris and Corrupted, but have yet to
check either out. Can foaks give me some pointers with regard to those two,
and anything else related? I'm familiar with Skullflower and Fushisusha, but
I'm more in the market for the tortured and anguised than the psych-tinged.

Cheers!
Nirav
--
NP- Windsor for the Derby- Earnest Powers + (Emperor Jones)
NR- _The Tin Drum_- Gunter Grass
AIM: Icefactory37
"Duration is to the consciousness as light is to the eye" - Bill Viola



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Zachary Steiner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Zappa Recommendations
Date: 24 Mar 2002 18:40:57 -0500

I seem to remember a rather long thread on Zappa recommendations.  I
don't want to rehash it, but does any one know when this thread occurred
so I can look it up in the archives?

Thanks,
Zach



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: goddamn i'm dumb.  (was: Re: toshimaru nakamura.)
Date: 24 Mar 2002 19:03:01 EST

everyone everyone,

i'm sorry.  i am dumb and i was tired and the two add up to my faux pas on the japanese names...
it was indeed nobukazu takemura.  muchos apologies, sorry for my ignorance, blah blah.  it doesn't change how awesome he was, though.

he's dan the automator?  now i'm REALLY confused.

love,
  k8.  sorry sorry

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ronald Hiznay <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Dan the Automator (was Toshimaru Nakamura)
Date: 24 Mar 2002 16:28:06 -0800 (PST)

Sorry,

My guess was based on an incomplete google search in
which unfortunately the pages with information on the
schedule for the Metro were already updated with
yesterday's shows already removed. Aparently Dan the
Automator has also played there in a proximity close
enough for the Google search to return a "Dan the
Automator Nakamura...3/22 Plaid..." kind of response.

mushmush

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards«
http://movies.yahoo.com/

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "john schuller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: "...than a spoonfull of starmatter"
Date: 24 Mar 2002 16:29:48 -0800

If you are looking for epic without sword and sorcery go check out Sunn 0)))
Flight of the Behemoth. www.southernlord.com

_________________________________________________________________
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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Herb Levy <[e-mail]>
Subject: Partch
Date: 24 Mar 2002 18:40:51 -0600

It's pretty clear from his writings that Partch didn't think of
himself as innovative or avant garde as such. Rather he thought he
was returning to a kind of total performance art which he thought had
been largely abandoned in Western culture in which a small group of
performers all played instruments, sang, danced and acted, rather
than specializing in some single performance mode. He found
precursors for this form in Japan, Indonesia, and other non-Western
traditions, as well as ancient Greek theater. He called this approach
"corporeal" to distinguish what he considered to be its roots in the
physical (body) rather than the intellect as such. For him, most
strictly instrumental abstract music without plot, text and other
performance devices was an example of where Western culture had gone
wrong after the time of the Greeks.

Similarly, he thought of his approach to just intonation as a return
to earlier concerns about tuning and scales.

So, yeah, much of his work is literally and consciously derivative of
styles and traditions like Kabuki. And his last big piece, Delusion
of the Fury, is particularly so. I would guess that the fact that
someone familiar with, say, Kabuki, heard his own music as being
similar is something that Partch might consider to be a kind of
confirmation that he was on the right track.

Probably the most innovative aspect (in the sense of being without
much in the way of direct precursors) of Partch's work were the
instruments themselves, and even many of them were modelled on
instruments from non-Western cultures.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: David Beardsley <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Partch
Date: 24 Mar 2002 20:37:26 -0500

----- Original Message -----

> It's pretty clear from his writings that Partch didn't think of
> himself as innovative or avant garde as such. Rather he thought he
> was returning to a kind of total performance art which he thought had
> been largely abandoned in Western culture in which a small group of
> performers all played instruments, sang, danced and acted, rather
> than specializing in some single performance mode. He found
> precursors for this form in Japan, Indonesia, and other non-Western
> traditions, as well as ancient Greek theater. He called this approach
> "corporeal" to distinguish what he considered to be its roots in the
> physical (body) rather than the intellect as such. For him, most
> strictly instrumental abstract music without plot, text and other
> performance devices was an example of where Western culture had gone
> wrong after the time of the Greeks.
>
> Similarly, he thought of his approach to just intonation as a return
> to earlier concerns about tuning and scales.
>
> So, yeah, much of his work is literally and consciously derivative of
> styles and traditions like Kabuki. And his last big piece, Delusion
> of the Fury, is particularly so. I would guess that the fact that
> someone familiar with, say, Kabuki, heard his own music as being
> similar is something that Partch might consider to be a kind of
> confirmation that he was on the right track.
>
> Probably the most innovative aspect (in the sense of being without
> much in the way of direct precursors) of Partch's work were the
> instruments themselves, and even many of them were modelled on
> instruments from non-Western cultures.

True, but maybe the innovation was his rejection of Western culture
for an ancient and non-western approach that pre-dates Lou Harrison?
Aside from Ives, is he one of the first American fusion guys? I say American
to seperate them from Bartok and Stravinsky.

Thoughts? (these are my rambling thoughts, I'm back to my guitar for now)



* David Beardsley
* http://biink.com
* http://mp3.com/davidbeardsley



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "nors5379" <[e-mail]>
Subject: re: big gundown live
Date: 25 Mar 2002 02:10:47 GMT

now that i know such performances exist, do copies of it
exist out there in the nether world of the zorn list? not
saying that im actively pursuing this, but you know...
hahaha
-darryl.


rich williams: <<<It was performed at BAM in 86 and in
Europe in 88. The NYC
show was very well done, 15-20 musicians. Milano Odea
performed with
4 guitarists (Frith,Arto,Quine,Frisell) and Shelley Hirsh
singing on
Erotico
were highlights for me.>>>


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "s~Z" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: "...than a spoonfull of starmatter"
Date: 24 Mar 2002 18:33:55 -0800


NR- _The Tin Drum_- Gunter Grass

Best book ever written.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rick Lopez <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: "...than a spoonfull of starmatter"
Date: 24 Mar 2002 21:35:09 -0500

on 02.03.24 9:33 PM, s~Z at [e-mail] wrote:

>
> NR- _The Tin Drum_- Gunter Grass
>
> Best book ever written.
>

cat'n'mouse isn't bad either.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Chris Selvig <[e-mail]>
Subject: knocking on the gates
Date: 24 Mar 2002 19:10:59 -0800

I'm quite fond of Maryanne Amacher's "Third Ear Music," but anyone with a
baby can tell you that creating tones with sympathetic resonances in the
bones of the ear is far from a new idea.

Chris Selvig


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Herb Levy <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Partch
Date: 24 Mar 2002 23:11:01 -0600

At 8:37 PM -0500 3/24/02, David Beardsley wrote:

>True, but maybe the innovation was his rejection of Western culture
>for an ancient and non-western approach that pre-dates Lou Harrison?
>Aside from Ives, is he one of the first American fusion guys? I say American
>to seperate them from Bartok and Stravinsky.
>
>Thoughts? (these are my rambling thoughts, I'm back to my guitar for now)

The more I hear, the more I question the need to be concerned about
innovation as such. Firsts (& bests, for that matter) are of far less
consequence than the continuity and community in which "new music"
occurs.

Perhaps the numerous qualifications ("aside from", "one of the
first", "to separate them from") in David's comments above are
another, perhaps unconscious, acknowledgement of this as well.

Nothing I wrote earlier about Partch's music was negative, I was
simply stating that he saw his own work as a return to a tradition
that he thought had been lost in the West.

(& FWIW, other pre-Partch North American "fusion" composers would
include Henry Cowell, Ruth Crawford (Seeger), Colin McPhee,)
--
Herb Levy
Mappings: new music in RealAudio
P O Box 9369 Forth Wort, TX 76147 USA
http://antennaradio.com/mappings/show.htm
[e-mail]

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Partch
Date: 24 Mar 2002 21:32:36 -0800

on 3/24/02 9:11 PM, Herb Levy at [e-mail] wrote:

> The more I hear, the more I question the need to be concerned about
> innovation as such. Firsts (& bests, for that matter) are of far less
> consequence than the continuity and community in which "new music"
> occurs.

I couldn't agree more, personally, except that I think the categorical
segregation practiced by the new music community has cut that community off
from a lot of bold music.
>
> Nothing I wrote earlier about Partch's music was negative, I was
> simply stating that he saw his own work as a return to a tradition
> that he thought had been lost in the West.

I think ol' Harry thought the spirit of America had not only been drained
from our music, but from our collective ability to use our own hands to
create things that had a function in our own lives.

skip h


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Stephen Fruitman)
Subject: Re: radical biologically jewish culture
Date: 25 Mar 2002 10:58:28 +0100 (MET)

>aboriginal Jewishness

>"The prestige of ancient wisdom and suffering can be yours Now at
>discount price!"

>an ambiguous dual dimension of race and religion

Along with the subject line, I find these statements and phrases quite
disturbing.

>ethnic cleaning of <snip> the occupied Palestinian territories

Whereas I find this one quite simply false. It=B4s a war, a territorial war,
fruitless in oh so many ways, but certainly not a campaign of genocide.

>There is no clearly drawn line in the sky where nationalism or racism begin=
 and
>end, but we will notice that it is often simply when someone places origin
>(national, religious or racial) above all other considerations. This of cou=
rse
>has for effect to make the excluded

Are you accusing Zorn of this? Zorn who lives part of each year in the Far
East? Whose entire RJC series artwork is designed by a Japanese-American?
Whose RJC albums _are not_ restricted only to the circumsized - plenty of
non-Jews on plenty of the albums?

Tell me really, do folks really feel _excluded_ by the monicker given this
series? Something must be up, because this is not the first time "RJC" has
been up to debate.


(and even many of the included) feel very
>uncomfortable, and, since the mid-20th century, sad and worried that the
>lessons
>of history have been in vain, even among the educated.
>Apparently the rationalisation for this particular case was Jazz, supposedl=
y
>"black radical culture", a very poor and narrow reading of this rich and op=
en
>musical form. The term "Jazz" was at first synonym for another, more famous
>4-letter word starting with F, and never had the slightest pretentions or
>self-awareness as any kind of "radical culture" whether based on race or
>religion. It was good-time music, often a parody or cover of European
>opera, folk
>or marching tunes. The fact most of its players were black was fascinating =
to
>whites much more than to themselves. Never could such fresh, playful,
>inclusive,
>unpretentious music have sprung out of such a closed, normative, cerebral
>self-definition.
>
>4) the appropriation of popular musicians like Burt Bacharach or Serge
>Gainsbourg
>under this artificial umbrella, confirming its racist essence, since, at
>least as
>far as Gainsbourg is concerned, there has never been anything in his work,
>lifestyle or beliefs that could in any way be connected with Jewish=
 religion or
>culture. Therefore the only justification for his being displayed in this n=
iche
>is, like a dog, his biological species.
>
>Artists has gone overboard in the past and made embarassing mistakes (some
>irreparable) when trying to overreach their medium into the realm of social=
,
>political or spiritual matters. Wagner with racism and nationalism, Ezra Po=
und
>with fascism, Eluard or Picasso with stalinism, Chic Corea with scientology=
...
>
>I don't see any real threat coming out of Zorn's cute self-definition
>game, but I
>do find it disapointingly reactionary, and tasteless.
>
>D.
>
>(P.S.) God!... is it actually that important to me in the first place that
>I have
>to spend an hour of my precious time argumenting it for the umpeenth time!?
>hopefully the last.)
>
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>-

Stephen Fruitman
Dept of Historical Studies
Ume=E5 University
SE-901 87 Ume=E5 Sweden



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Arthur Gadney" <[e-mail]>
Subject: new zorn
Date: 25 Mar 2002 10:55:03 +0000

----> May 21st

John Zorn "Iao" cd on Tzadik
Z'ev "The Sapphire Nature" cd on Tzadik

_________________________________________________________________
Join the worldÆs largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
http://www.hotmail.com


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Arthur Gadney" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: flag-waving, packaging and martyrdom (Still pretty off topic)
Date: 25 Mar 2002 11:34:07 +0000

Hello.

Just one comment:

>If only a thousandth of the 1 Billion Muslims on earth had marched through
>Arab capitals to protest the disastrously "radical"
>appropriation of their religion by Bin Laden and co., that would have sent
>shock waves across the planet and Osama into permanent
>vacation.
>Nothing of any sort at all happened. Hence the problematic connection
>mentioned earlier.

The image of Bin Laden is very differently portrait in the Muslim world,
than it is in Europe and especially America. Recently there was a huge
Gallup survey in Indonesia, Iran, Jordan, Kuwait, Libanon, Marocco,
Pakistan, Saudi-Arabia og Tyrkey. While the huge mayority of Muslims
condemmed the september 11 attacks, only 18% believe that it was comitted by
arabs. So why would they demonstarte against anyone else than USA? In the
same survey only 9% think that America's millitary repsonse was justified
and morraly acceptable.

The support for Bin Laden (and Taleban) is not for their religious belief.
Bin Laden called Afghanistan under the Taliban for 'The only real Muslim
country in the world". Hardly nobody agrees with him on that (banning music,
permitting women to go to school etc). His support was really very limited
before september 11. However, after October 7 it has increased drastically.
For obvious reasons.

Fairly related, for an EXCELLENT laugh, read "Terror's march backwards" from
The Observer:

Part 1:

http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-files/Observer/documents/2002/03/19/morris2.pdf

Part 2:

http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-files/Observer/documents/2002/03/19/morris3.pdf

If you prefer, there's a simple text version here:

http://www.observer.co.uk/review/story/0,6903,668664,00.html

Cheers,

PS: Talking of alarming statistics: Last year, Scientific American made a
survey which concluded that 45% of americans believe that God created the
earth within the last 10000 years.






_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ricardo Reis <[e-mail]>
Subject: electro acustic music festival Lisbon
Date: 25 Mar 2002 11:45:38 +0000 (WET)


    Just noticed this a little whille ago and so sorry for the
right-on-time notice. There will be an electroacustic music festival here
in Lisbon, from 26th march to 2nd april. details can be found at:

    http://www.ccb.pt/English/mu03-mviva2002.html

            greets,

                 Ricardo Reis

                "Non Serviam"


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Andy Marks <[e-mail]>
Subject: New Upcoming Zorn Release
Date: 25 Mar 2002 04:10:39 -0800 (PST)

Zorn, John - lAO
RELEASE DATE: 05/14. "The name lAO is Kabbalistically
identical to the
Beast and his number 666. In the tradition of Zorn's
longform studio
compositions Godard, Spillane, Elegy, Kristallnacht
and Duras, yet
completely unique in form and content, lAO is a
hypnotic seven-movement
suite of Alchemy, Mysticism, Metaphysics and Magic
both black and
white.  Inspired in part by the esoteric works of
Aleister Crowley and
his magickal disciple, filmmaker Kenneth Anger, the
seven movements
range from hypnotic exotica, ritualistic percussion
and death metal to
ambient, electronica and a stunning piece for female
chorus. As varied
and listenable as The Gift and as perplexing as Songs
from the Hermetic
Theater, lAO is a major new work by downtown's master
of the
unexpected."


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards«
http://movies.yahoo.com/

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Arthur Gadney" <[e-mail]>
Subject: test
Date: 25 Mar 2002 18:36:06 +0000



test

_________________________________________________________________
Join the worldÆs largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
http://www.hotmail.com


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: jason tors <[e-mail]>
Subject: nakedcity live news?
Date: 25 Mar 2002 12:31:27 -0800 (PST)

Hello, I am getting really excited for the live naked city release.
Does anyone have any news? The only tidbit I know is thru a nyer that
talked with brucelee and apparently Z is running into some issues with
the cover art, surprise surprise.

Just realized this is how rumors start...

any other news would be greatly appreciated.



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards«
http://movies.yahoo.com/

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: duncan youngerman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re:RJC
Date: 26 Mar 2002 00:04:01 +0100


Stephen Fruitman a =E9crit :

> >aboriginal Jewishness

>"aboriginal: inhabiting or existing in a land from the earliest times or be=
fore
the arrival of colonists"
-Oxford concise dictionary
If "radical"  means "seeking to get to the roots", I'm at a loss at what you=
 could
find disturbing here=2E
Could it be that because this term has often been used in connection with le=
ss
developped, animist cultures, it is pejorative in your eyes?

> >"The prestige of ancient wisdom and suffering can be yours Now at
> >discount price!"

I think if Moli=E8re or Orwell were living today they would'nt hesitate eith=
er to
satirize the superficiality of our spiritual mall culture=2E

> >an ambiguous dual dimension of race and religion

Why do you pretend to ignore that the notion of Jewishness can encompass bot=
h or
either religious and/or racial aspects, and that antisemitism is racism?

> Along with the subject line ("radical biologically jewish culture"),

>Did you read my point about Gainsbourg being exhibited like a dog for his
biological species and nothing else?

> I find these statements and phrases quite
> disturbing=2E

I find these concepts and mentalities quite disturbing=2E

     >ethnic cleaning of <snip> the occupied Palestinian territories

> Whereas I find this one quite simply false=2E It=B4s a war, a territorial =
war,
> fruitless in oh so many ways, but certainly not a campaign of genocide=2E

Milosevic will tell you (if you follow his current trial for crimes against
Humanity) that the Serbian army and police actions in Kosovo were only self-=
defense
against "foreign" terrorist groups working to steal back Serbian "holy land"
(Kosovo)=2E
I agree that Israel/Palestine is not genocide but let's not hide from the fa=
ct that
the fundamentalist Jewish settlers are about as humanistic as General Custer=
 ("a
good arab is a dead arab") or Hermann Goering=2E Nor from the patent connect=
ion
between religious zealotry and racism (Evangelisation of the American contin=
ent,
pogroms, KKK=2E=2E=2E)

> >There is no clearly drawn line in the sky where nationalism or racism beg=
in and
> >end, but we will notice that it is often simply when someone places origi=
n
> >(national, religious or racial) above all other considerations=2E This of=
 course
> >has for effect to make the excluded
>
> Are you accusing Zorn of this? Zorn who lives part of each year in the Far
> East? Whose entire RJC series artwork is designed by a Japanese-American?
> Whose RJC albums _are not_ restricted only to the circumsized - plenty of
> non-Jews on plenty of the albums?

I express only my irritation about a cute and narcissistic post-modern marke=
ting
concept (Madonna wearing the Cross is not very far) with reactionary
ramifications=2E

> Tell me really, do folks really feel _excluded_ by the monicker given this
> series? Something must be up, because this is not the first time "RJC" has
> been up to debate=2E

You might even find that I'm relatively oecumenical=2E
Here's Elliott Sharp (child of Holocaust survivors, great composer and music=
ian,
friend of Zorn's), from his "On line gig dairy", October 2001:

"10 days before our trip <to the Frankfurt Jazz Festival>, I discovered that=
 the
online festival program called KrashArea a manifestationof the "Radical Jewi=
sh
Culture" movement=2E This angered me greatly and I was able to get this publ=
icity
changed=2E I felt it was necessary to additionally clarify matters before th=
e
audience and spoke briefly about my longtime perception that "Radical Jewish
Culture" is an abhorrent marketing scam exploited by a few musicians and tha=
t
religion and nationalism are two of the world's great evils and shouls be
combatted, not celebrated=2E This was met with great approval by the audienc=
e -very
heartening! I believe that the young Germans who follow new music understand=
 very
well the legacy of nationalism run rampant and have a much clearer picture o=
f how
it creates worldwide damage- much more than the insulated and ill-educated
Americans, waving flags and dropping bombs=2E"

(Same, November 24, 2001:)
"Herzl's own diaries as he was developping Zionism reveal his strategy for "=
ethnic
cleansing" and desire to eliminate the Arab populations from "Jewish regions=
" of
Palestine=2E When Jews say "Never again!", it should apply to everybody=2E"

Best,
D=2E

>
>
>


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re:RJC
Date: 25 Mar 2002 18:44:39 EST

<yawn, yawn, yawn in light of recent long boring sociological / musical diatribes on any topic>

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: William Crump <[e-mail]>
Subject: Innovation; doo-doo head!; Philly
Date: 25 Mar 2002 17:50:12 -0600

First:
I don't suppose that FZ's "Lumpy Gravy" actually broke any new ground,
but every time I listen to it, I'm more and more amazed and impressed.
I'm starting to think that it's the most important piece of music Zappa
ever produced.

For a true innovation, what about that John Cage piece that involved
about a bazillion tape edits? I forget the name of it, but I'm sure it
predates Zappa's tape-edit fun in the 1960s. Was Cage the first person
to do that sort of thing?

Second:
I came back from a very pleasant weekend in Nashville (the Lambchop
concert was excellent, thanks for asking) to find 241 variations on
"You're a doo-doo head!" "No, YOU'RE a doo-doo head!" in my inbox.
Thanks ever so much.

Third:
I'm going to be in Philadelphia for one day only, this coming Saturday.
I can't make any gigs (I'll be giving my evening to Masaharu Morimoto),
but are there any record stores I would kick myself for missing?

William Crump


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Matthew Ross Davis <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: them crazy opera singers
Date: 25 Mar 2002 17:46:29 -0600

depends on what you mean by opera singer. a lot of singers who do wacky
experimental stuff are trained in that style, but never sing opera (myself
being one of them).

do you know of folks like joan la barbara, cathy berberian, philip larson,
thomas buckner, phil minton, jaap blonk, etc.? they all explore areas of the
voice not normally touched - or did you mean to inquire about actual opera
singers doing the stuff that also perform opera regularly? THAT category of
singer is probably counted on less than one hand.

one performance i can recommend (and not just because i'm in it) is a show
done at the nervous center in chicago with vocalists Carol Genetti (chicago)
and Viv Corringham (london). it's three free improvs done for their festival
of electronic music back in february:

    http://craque.net/miquez/nervousctr20020227.html

i invite zorn listers to have a listen, it was really a fun fun fun show!
and the largest audience for an experimental show at the nervous center that
i personally have seen for a long time.

m

gorilla thing([e-mail])@Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 11:00:05AM -0800:
> not to interrupt the fascinating debate:
> but are there any opera singers doing
> some cutting edge crazy freaky music?
>
> -Chad
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
>
>
> -

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Matthew Ross Davis <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: toshimaru nakamura.
Date: 25 Mar 2002 17:51:31 -0600

that was nobukazu takemura, not toshimaru nakamura. huge difference!

i was at the mr. scruff show downstairs and loving every minute of it. :)

m

[e-mail]([e-mail])@Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 01:24:28AM -0500:
>
> In a message dated 03.23.02 19.17.29, [e-mail] writes:
>
> >You should check out some of the things that
> >Toshimaru Nakamura is or has been doing with no-input
> >mixing board and very very very high frequencies
> >although I don't really know how this will translate
> >to CD, as microphone placement, type, frequency range,
> >and the actual limit of 44100 Hz CD format have a
> >great effect on sine waves around 13000 Hz...
> >If you do buy any of these, do it to support Toshimaru
> >Nakamura, and don't bother listening to them very
> >much...(if you're wondering, I've seen Toshimaru
> >Nakamura several times and quite honestly never heard
> >anything remotely close to that on CD. There are times
> >when you can't hear sounds, you can only feel them in
> >your teeth, or as an unexplainable anxiety which goes
> >away when he switches notes)
>
> i just had to jump in here - i saw plaid with toshimaru nakamura last night
> at the metro in chicago, and he actually blew plaid away, in my opinion.  it
> was physically painful at times, and made me have to go to the bathroom, but
> it was intensely cool.  and his visual aspect was intensely cool, too.
>
> mmm.
>
> plaid had a computer crash in mid-set which was weak as hell.  i was pissed.
>
> love,
>   k8.
>
>
>
>
> ---
> [.n0thing.is.what.is.sAid.]
> k a t e  p e t e r s o n
> c o m p o s e r / p e r f o r m e r
>
> http://www.geocities.com/uforbk8/kate.html
> http://www.icefoundation.org (roundtable)
>
> -

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rick Lopez <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: RJC
Date: 25 Mar 2002 19:00:53 -0500

on 02.03.25 6:44 PM, [e-mail] at [e-mail] wrote:

> <yawn, yawn, yawn in light of recent long boring sociological / musical
> diatribes on any topic>

yeah, so, whaddaya wanna talk about?

Here's somethings:

I've got all this horribly difficult research going on (said in a faint
nasal whine). The search for session details for my discogs and
sessionographies takes up more leisure time than I actually have. SO: Why
the hell do label folk (anyone out there?) insist on making many details
unavailable in the liners? I've got the most recent FOUR Ibarra-involved
discs on Tzadik with no mention of when. Since most discogs I've seen are
based on Chronology, this makes no sense to me. They know, why don't they
tell?

Knit does the same shit-- a few Gayle dates are missing from my william
parker document, (PRIMA MATERIA session) --I had to hunt for the Kingdom
Come dates-- and am i bitching here? Maybe I should eat before i write
this...

Harras has no date, HA! Avant, guilty also.

I had to, speakin' o' which, harras, sic, Rollins for the 2.13.61 Shipp and
/ or Parker discs. Took me about 9 months.

Is it considered somehow hip to be secretive about such things? Am I wasting
my time? Perhaps I should dump it all and start drinking lots of beer and
watching television? Isn't that what normal people do?

Research sucks,
RL
http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k CRISPELL;  IBARRA; Wm. PARKER; RIVERS; SHIPP;
D.S. WARE; COURVOISIER; ENEIDI; MANERI; MORRIS; SPEARMAN; THREADGILL;
WORKMAN; Beckett Eulogy; Baseball & the 10,000 Things; Time Stops; LOVETORN;
HARD BOIL; LUCILLE, a Reverential Journal of the Care of the Beloved Hag...


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Innovation; doo-doo head!; Philly
Date: 25 Mar 2002 16:17:30 -0800


On Mon, 25 Mar 2002 17:50:12 -0600  William Crump wrote:
>
> For a true innovation, what about that John Cage piece that involved
> about a bazillion tape edits? I forget the name of it, but I'm sure it
> predates Zappa's tape-edit fun in the 1960s. Was Cage the first person
> to do that sort of thing?

If I remember well, Schaeffer's Studio d'Essais did not have a tape
recorder when it started (hence the emphasis on records). But I am
pretty sure that by the time Pierre Henry joined (late 40's), they
were able to acquire one. This puts tape music from that side of the
ocean to late 40's, maybe early 50's).

    Patrice.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Innovation; doo-doo head!; Philly
Date: 25 Mar 2002 16:22:45 -0800

on 3/25/02 3:50 PM, William Crump at [e-mail] wrote:

>
> Third:
> I'm going to be in Philadelphia for one day only, this coming Saturday.
> I can't make any gigs (I'll be giving my evening to Masaharu Morimoto),
> but are there any record stores I would kick myself for missing?
>
> William Crump

Jazz Sound a/k/a Sound Of Market.  Ask for Craig Baylor.  One of the best
record stops in the country.

skip h


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: PS Re: Innovation; doo-doo head!; Philly
Date: 25 Mar 2002 16:24:37 -0800

on 3/25/02 4:22 PM, skip Heller at [e-mail] wrote:


> Jazz Sound a/k/a Sound Of Market.  Ask for Craig Baylor.  One of the best
> record stops in the country.

at 11th and Ludlow (between Market & Chestnut) on the east side of the
street.



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Steve Smith" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Opinions on Wolfgang Rihm?
Date: 23 Mar 2002 13:09:29 -0500


    [forwarding bounced message - message too large, mostly because
    it had HTML *and* plain text - rizzi]

Matt:

Hope you don't mind that I copied the whole list on this reply - you said so
many interesting things about Rihm that I thought everyone would benefit
from your insights. And you're right: Gejagte Form is very much a precursor
in the lineage of Jagden und Formen.

While nothing's ever etched in stone, I'm about as certain as I can be about
Jagden und Formen coming out here by fall. I know that Universal is planning
to "relaunch" the 20/21 contemporary music series then, and it will likely
be part of that effort. Strangely enough, however, I do know that another
20/21 title, with new pieces for viola and orchestra by Kancheli and
Gubaidulina performed by Yuri Bashmet, will be released here in May to
coincide with another disc by the same conductor (Valery Gergiev) that
features 'Pictures at an Exhibition'...

Steve Smith
[e-mail]
  -----Original Message-----
  From: Matthew Mitchell [mailto:[e-mail]]
  Sent: Friday, March 22, 2002 6:46 PM
  To: Patrice L. Roussel; Steve Smith
  Subject: RE: Opinions on Wolfgang Rihm?


  I personally make a point in grabbing up every Rihm disc I can find.  I
realize that he's not for everybody.  People who like their classical music
really 'out' tend to get annoyed by the fact that he's not above occasional
neo-Mahlerian harmony and the motor rhythms and repetition that Steve
alludes to in the new CD.  He's also too often unremittingly violent and
sporadic for those who like 'continuity.' My friend Mike Johnson (writer for
the band Thinking Plague, don't know if you've heard of them) thought that
the Rihm violin/orchestra piece performed by Anne-Sophie Mutter on the DG CD
(the one that also has the Berg Violin Concerto) sounded too 'New-Agey.' (!)
Go figure...

  He's also INSANELY prolific.

  That said, I find his music utterly fascinating, and could write for pages
and pages on his stuff.  I find him to be someone who's innovative not for a
particular technique, but for the fact that he's fairly musically omnivorous
(within the 'classical' music history realm, that is) and doesn't feel
constrained to one strand of compositional thought.  At the same time, he
pursues his directions fairly thoroughly.  Never do I get the sense that his
exploration of an area is lowered to the realm of dilettantism (word?), even
with the stuff I don't like as much.

  Organic is a word I'd apply to him.

  There's a great disc on Col Legno with two pieces on it: Ins Offene and
sphere.  There's an utterly fantastic 2-disc set on Hanssler classic records
that has his first piece, also a string quartet/orchestra piece, which was
written when he was 22, and also a monolithic 3 movement piece called
Klangbeschreibung that's about 90 minutes long.  On Kairos is a disc called
Gejagte Form, which has some pieces that are precursors, I believe, to the
piece on this new disc Steve has.  Also great is the Arditti quartet reissue
on Montaigne/Naive that has quartets 3, 5, and 8.  (there's like 12 quartets
or something)

  Steve, do you think the chances are good that it will definitely come out
here?  The thought of this disc really has me excited, yet my cynicism
regarding the music business makes me extremely skeptical that such a disc
could ever be released anymore these days, even on a label such as DG.

  Thanks for bearing with me.

  -matt

  NP: Pierre Henry, Futuristie ( in a fir of new-discovery obsessiveness
that I get about stuff I like, I went and got a bunch of those Phillips
reissues.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Innovation; doo-doo head!; Philly
Date: 25 Mar 2002 16:45:49 -0800

on 3/25/02 4:35 PM, Zachary Steiner at [e-mail] wrote:

> Also check out AKA Music on N 2nd St; down by Penn's Landing I think.
> They have some things that Sounds of Market doesn't.
>
> Zach
>
>
>
If that's the place I think (I haven't lived in Philly for about 6 yrs but I
do keep in touch there), it's run by Mike Hoffman, who used to work at 3rd
Street Jazz, probably Philly's best-loved local store (espec when Craig
Baylor was working there).  Hoffman is posessed of deep rock knowledge.

skip h


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Michael Berman" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Philly
Date: 25 Mar 2002 20:42:35 -0500

Theres another decent shop down on Second street, cant remeber the name =
of it offhand, but ill be up that way myself this week, so will look it =
up.  It's not as great as the unfortunatly closed 3rd Street Jazz- the =
ultimate in great new and used vinyl, and its a little pricey IMO, but =
worth the browse.  Haven't been to Sound of Market  in many years, will =
have to see if it still rates.

If you want to stock up on your rare Sun Ra,  Philly's the place.
mike

=20
----- Original Message -----=20
<[e-mail]>; Zorn Mailing List <[e-mail]>
Sent: Monday, March 25, 2002 7:24 PM


> on 3/25/02 4:22 PM, skip Heller at [e-mail] wrote:
>=20
>=20
> > Jazz Sound a/k/a Sound Of Market.  Ask for Craig Baylor.  One of the =
best
> > record stops in the country.
>=20
> at 11th and Ludlow (between Market & Chestnut) on the east side of the
> street.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> -
>=20
>=20


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: RJC
Date: 25 Mar 2002 21:24:14 -0600

On Mon, Mar 25, 2002 at 06:44:39PM -0500, [e-mail] wrote:
> <yawn, yawn, yawn in light of recent long boring sociological / musical diatribes on any topic>

Best to return to the musical aspects of tangelos. If you put a
contact mic on them while peeling, they sound remarkably like
?akamura.

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Zachary Steiner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Philly
Date: 25 Mar 2002 22:06:56 -0500

There seemed to be more of a selection of experimental CDs at AKA Music
(the store on 2nd St.) than at Sounds of Market.  Sometimes their prices
were better on certain items.  That's been my experience.  You won't get
the help at AKA that you will at Sounds of Market, that's for sure.

Zach



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "carlos torres" <[e-mail]>
Subject: no-wave
Date: 25 Mar 2002 21:02:45 -0800

with so much obscure no wave out there, i wish there was a way i could
sample some of it. does any one know of any good no wave comps  (BESIDES NO
NEW YORK!!!!) or perhaps some websites with good no wave info?? thanks for
your help

carlos

_________________________________________________________________
Join the worldÆs largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
http://www.hotmail.com


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: no-wave
Date: 25 Mar 2002 22:24:52 -0800

on 3/25/02 9:02 PM, carlos torres at [e-mail] wrote:

> with so much obscure no wave out there, i wish there was a way i could
> sample some of it. does any one know of any good no wave comps  (BESIDES NO
> NEW YORK!!!!) or perhaps some websites with good no wave info?? thanks for
> your help
>
> carlos
>
not to be redundant, but I recommend you go right to The Stickmen disc,
INSATIABLE, from the good people at Cuneiform.  The Stickmen were Philly's
contenders for the no wave cown, and were as good as it gets.

skip h


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Herb Levy <[e-mail]>
Subject: New Music in RealAudio, Mappings for the week beginning March 19,
Date: 26 Mar 2002 01:16:46 -0600

Hi y'all,

This week on Mappings
<http://www.antennaradio.com/mappings/show.htm>, you'll hear works by
composers Chris Burn/John Butcher'Rhodri Davies/John Edwards, Ellen
Burr, Allison Cameron, Mark Dresser, Francois Houle/Eyvind Kang/Dylan
van der Schyff, Anne La Berge, George E Lewis, Denman Maroney,
Toshimaru Nakamura, Evan Parker, Sara Schoenbeck & Tim Baker, Stefano
Scodanibbio,

The show went online Tueday morning around 6:00 AM (-0600 GMT) and
will remain online at the above URL for a week. Last week's program
(featuring works for strings and pianos played in unusual ways by
composers Louis Andriessen, Gloria Coates, Ellen Fullman, Yannis
Kyriakides, Alvin Lucier, and Stephen Scott) is still available in
the Mappings archive (click on the link to last week's show on the
page noted above), soon you will again find play lists for the
program since it began in March 1998.

Hope you tune in to the program.

Bests,

Herb

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Arthur Gadney" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Elliot Sharp on RJC
Date: 26 Mar 2002 11:00:25 +0000

Thanks to who ever contributed the Elliot Sharp quotes on RJC. I thought
they were very interesting and decided to track them down and it turns out
there's more! Here is another exerpt from his diary:

"Our final gig of this leg is at North Sea Jazz Festival. We're quite angry
at the presentation: we're listed as part of "Klezmer meets Jazz" and
there's precious little of either in a GTR OBLQ set - just a promoter's
fantasy. The notes in the catalog talk about my involvement in "Radical
Jewish Culture" and mentions very little about the real work of any of us. I
hate this Radical Jewish Culture marketing tip - I'm very much against
religion and nationalism - 2 of the world's great evils!!"

I'm quite surprised to see him have *SUCH* a negative aprouch. Didn't he
releasse several CDs in the RJC series?? Has there been any public debate
about this with him and Zorn or did Zorn ever comment on it?

I'd recommend checking out some more of his writings and interviews. It's
surprisingly good. His comments around september 11 are definately worth a
look. Have a go:

http://www.algonet.se/~repple/esharp/writings.html

Cheers,

NP: Nothing, but I have to get some Elliot Sharp stuff, that's for sure...
:-)
NR: http://www.zmag.org/content/TerrorWar/rawa_statement.cfm

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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ricardo Jorge" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: no-wave
Date: 26 Mar 2002 11:29:31 +0000

check out fruit of the original sin and all Mars / Jhon Gavanti / don king
releases
ps: there is a rare mars vinil's auction going on on ebay!

>
>with so much obscure no wave out there, i wish there was a way i could
>sample some of it. does any one know of any good no wave comps  (BESIDES NO
>NEW YORK!!!!) or perhaps some websites with good no wave info?? thanks for
>your help
>
>carlos
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
>http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
>-
>


_________________________________________________________________
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http://www.hotmail.com/br


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: New Model Army
Date: 26 Mar 2002 06:43:48 EST

Someone here made mention of New Model Army. Please contact me off-list.

Thanks,

Andrew

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Bob Sweet <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: them crazy opera singers
Date: 26 Mar 2002 09:23:35 -0500

Has anyone on this list heard Susan Botti (http://www.susanbotti.com/)? She
came here to teach at the University of Michigan. What I read about her is
very interesting, but I've never heard her. Her husband, who also came here
to teach, is drummer, composer, bandleader Roland Vazquez.

Bob Sweet
read Music Universe, Music Mind: Revisiting the Creative Music Studio
http://www.arborville.com
[e-mail]

--On Monday, March 25, 2002 5:46 PM -0600 Matthew Ross Davis
<[e-mail]> wrote:

> depends on what you mean by opera singer. a lot of singers who do wacky
> experimental stuff are trained in that style, but never sing opera (myself
> being one of them).
>
> do you know of folks like joan la barbara, cathy berberian, philip larson,
> thomas buckner, phil minton, jaap blonk, etc.? they all explore areas of
> the voice not normally touched - or did you mean to inquire about actual
> opera singers doing the stuff that also perform opera regularly? THAT
> category of singer is probably counted on less than one hand.
>
> one performance i can recommend (and not just because i'm in it) is a show
> done at the nervous center in chicago with vocalists Carol Genetti
> (chicago) and Viv Corringham (london). it's three free improvs done for
> their festival  of electronic music back in february:
>
>     http://craque.net/miquez/nervousctr20020227.html
>
> i invite zorn listers to have a listen, it was really a fun fun fun show!
> and the largest audience for an experimental show at the nervous center
> that i personally have seen for a long time.
>
> m
>
> gorilla thing([e-mail])@Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 11:00:05AM
> -0800:
> > not to interrupt the fascinating debate:
> > but are there any opera singers doing
> > some cutting edge crazy freaky music?
> >
> > -Chad
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
> >
> >
> > -
>
> -





-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: no-wave
Date: 26 Mar 2002 08:44:09 -0800


On Mon, 25 Mar 2002 21:02:45 -0800  "carlos torres" wrote:
>
> with so much obscure no wave out there, i wish there was a way i could
> sample some of it. does any one know of any good no wave comps  (BESIDES NO
> NEW YORK!!!!) or perhaps some websites with good no wave info?? thanks for
> your help

Sure, top of my head:


*** - SPEED TRIALS: various artists

  This record features music by The Fall, Lydia Lunch, Beastie Boys, Carbon,
  Live Skull, Swans, Toy Killers, Sonic Youth.

    1984 - Homestead Records (USA), HMS 011 (LP)


*** - BETTER AN OLD DEMON THAN A NEW GOD: various artists

  This record features William S. Burroughs, David Johansen, Jim Carroll, John
  Giorno, Lydia Lunch, Psychic TV, Richard Hell, Arto Lindsay, Meredith Monk,
  Anne Waldman.

    1984 - Giorno Poetry Systems (USA), GPS 033 (LP)


*** - DOWNTOWN 81: various artists

  This record features Gray (1,9), Kid Creole and the Coconuts (2,14),
  Tuxedomoon (3), Liquid Liquid (4), DNA (5,16), James White and the Blacks
  (6,8), The Lounge Lizards (7,12), Lydia Lunch (10), Coati Mundi (11), Pablo
  Calogero (13), Suicide (15), Chris Stein (17), The Plastics (18), Walter
  Steding and the Dragon People (19), Rammelzee vs. K-Rob (20).

    2001 - Virgin (France), 724381016329 (CD)

  Note: this movie was supposed to be called DOWNTOWN BEAT.


    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Opinions on Wolfgang Rihm?
Date: 26 Mar 2002 09:29:09 -0800


    Thanks all for the Rihm advices!

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: john cage - floodgates part II
Date: 26 Mar 2002 12:56:45 EST

if i wanted a few highlights of john cage's various works, what would you
recommend?

i just now am getting into his stuff and could use some suggestions to get a
quick summary of what he is all about. name specific songs rather than albums
as i will probably check out some mp3's before i go and purchase any albums.
one thousand thank-you's. oh and what is the name of that piece that is all
tape splices?

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: William Crump <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: john cage - floodgates part II
Date: 26 Mar 2002 12:23:29 -0600

With a little scattershot searching, I see that the tape piece is called
"Williams Mix," from 1952, and it's on the John Cage 25th Anniversary
 Concert recording. I'd say that that release would be a good start for
the Cage beginner, but I'm a Cage beginner and I don't have it yet t, so
what do I know?

I do have what I consider a good first look at Cage's piano music -- not
meaning to suck up here, but "In a Landscape" from the list's own
Stephen Drury is a cool bunch of pieces for regular, prepared and toy
piano. It led me to the two Naxos discs of Cage prepared piano music,
which is as far as I've gotten in the man's work.

Joseph Zitt or someone else knowledgable should jump in here and carry
on the recommendations.

William Crump

[e-mail] wrote:

>if i wanted a few highlights of john cage's various works, what would you
>recommend?
>
>i just now am getting into his stuff and could use some suggestions to get a
>quick summary of what he is all about. name specific songs rather than albums
>as i will probably check out some mp3's before i go and purchase any albums.
>one thousand thank-you's. oh and what is the name of that piece that is all
>tape splices?
>
>-
>
>



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: john cage - floodgates part II
Date: 26 Mar 2002 14:19:41 -0600

On Tue, Mar 26, 2002 at 12:56:45PM -0500, [e-mail] wrote:
> if i wanted a few highlights of john cage's various works, what would you
> recommend?
>
> i just now am getting into his stuff and could use some suggestions to get a
> quick summary of what he is all about. name specific songs rather than albums
> as i will probably check out some mp3's before i go and purchase any albums.

I haven't seen a whole lot of Cage MP3s out there, though there's a
good starter set of his sound poetry at http://www.ubu.com/ in both
MP3 and Real Audio format.

I would recommend these CD's for starters. They're consistenly good,
so I can't really pick out single tracks to recommend:

- "Roaratorio" (an hour long piece on both Mode and Wergo)
- Joan LaBarbara: "Singing Through John Cage" (vocal works)
- "In a Landscape" (Stephen Drury plays piano works.
  Ignore the packaging, which makes it seem rather like dinner music.)
- "The Choral Works" (on Mode)
- "John Cage at Summerstage" (his last performance, which I've seen in
  a lot of cut-out bins)
- "Four^4" (recorded either by Glenn Freeman on OgreOgress or Amadinda
   Ensemble on Hungaroton)
- "Piano Music by John Cage" by Louis Goldstein

(I tend to be primarily interested in his later works, so someone else
might have a better list of the early music.)

Also, the various recordings of Cage on the Naxos label are quite good,
and inexpensive.

An MP3 search would probably come across a version of "In a Landscape"
(I think) by William Orbit. Skip over it -- it shares the name but
little else of the original Cage piece.

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Arthur Gadney" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Long Elliot Sharp quote
Date: 26 Mar 2002 11:17:32 +0000

    [forwarded bounce: was too large - rizzi]

Road Reports 2001 by Elliott Sharp

September

(...)

Monday's main activities were working on and at the studio. I awoke around
8:30 on Tuesday morning to drink coffee and do email correspondence. I tried
to make a phone call but the line was dead. Calling the operator on the fax
line, I was informed that the outage might have been caused by a plane
hitting a building but she wasn't sure. I ran outside and found out from the
people gathering outside on the sidewalk that a plane had indeed hit one of
the WTC towers, the second soon followed, then the collapses, the sky to the
southwest filling with smoke - F16 fighter jets soon appearing as well,
circling overhead.
This day was spent mostly in front of the television watching the shocking
footage of the planes hitting the towers. We would watch this footage over
and over, the images burning indelibly in the brain. With only one station
available (because of the loss of the antenna on the tower), we had to sit
through endless banal commentary and verbal dross - still, it was possible
to glean some real information about the attack. Bits of news about the
Pentagon hit and other crash would work their way in. Panix was down as
their dialups were in a building quite near the site. I was able to log on
to AOL and do email and get news from the AP feed as well as CNN. Around
eleven that morning, I was able to reach Christian Marclay who lives very
close to the towers. He and Lydia were fine, she up at work, he preparing to
head north to a safer quarter. The area of lower Manhattan below Canal
Street was to be evacuated and the area between Canal and 14th Street (where
I live) was closed to all but residents. This was dubbed the Frozen Zone by
the news and police checkpoints were set up to screen people trying to
enter.
By Tuesday evening, the brain was numbed and twisted. "President Bush" ( I
have a difficult time writing it or even saying it without quotes or
gagging) spoke at 8:30 in a typically inarticulate and uninformative manner,
often invoking "god" and "prayer." I was offended by Barak of Israel's
response, promising punishment and cheering on the battle against terrorism
without mentioning the Israeli injustices and larger reasons that create the
climate for terrorism. The Bushes, the multinationals, the Bin Ladens, the
Zionists, the international Right Wings, the fascists and totalitarians, the
nationalists, the religious fanatics - they all are working in concert,
whether intentional or not, to create a world of fear and draconic control,
crushing the creative spirits of people everywhere. Their own
self-interests, their lust for power, is served by state and individual
terror with innocent civilians manipulated and victimized. The
self-righteousness of the West continues to amaze me. How can terrorism be
discussed without mentioning Hiroshima/Nagasaki, Nanking, the genocide of
Native Americans, the firebombing of Dresden, the murder of the 100,000
fleeing Iraqi youths pressed into service as cannon fodder in the Gulf War?
I would wager that the number of innocents killed in the name of "god" far
exceeds those killed for all other "evil" -isms combined. As a Jew and the
son of Holocaust survivors, I must protest. But how? To whom? It continues
to bring up deep questions of our role as artists, as humans.
Wednesday: too much television, too much web, too much coffee. Studio work
is impossible - no concentration. Walking around the Frozen Zone, I'm struck
by the eery tranquility, a slightly subdued party atmosphere. Cafes are full
with queues for seats. People eating, drinking, laughing, kids playing. The
air is filled with a slight haze - not so visible but it stings the eyes,
the odor of burnt electrical apparatus, wood, paint, we don't want to think
what else. Day passes quickly into evening: more tube, more web.

(...)

These are notes and thoughts written over the course of the previous week,
from Sept. 14 - 23:

Adrenaline, fear, anger, disbelief - these were the drugs that carried us
through the first days after the attack. When they wore off, the sadness
really hit. Now, a time for coolness, objectivity, analysis - this yields a
fresh anger. As I sit in my studio, I can hear and see the F16's patrolling
over the City, enforcing the protection of the Great Leader, here to inspect
the Front, here to act in pious pretension, beating his chest and
proclaiming that he will banish "Evil" from the world - can I stop myself
from vomiting?
Bush uses the word Crusade - astonishment - only an uneducated boor like him
could use such a word without any understanding of the historical resonance
of that word - Moslems and Jews (Buddhists, Zoroastrians, Hindus, on and on)
the world over must quake at the thought of Crusade - the meaning had always
been "conversion or death."
His presence truly signifies that New York, our city, our place of life and
work, has been conquered - it is now Occupied Territory, captured by
America. The occupation began over a decade ago, and was, at first,
relatively peaceful: Mouse Ears on meltos: fat gawking Uhmrkns clogging the
sidewalks, malling and mcdonaldization. But the stage was set: New York City
(hated by Uhmrkns everywhere for its culture, its diverse population, its
soul, and its brains) was transformed into a sacrificial lamb, to be used as
an excuse for vengeance against the "enemy."
Where does the blame lie? Who is the real enemy? I say "follow the money!"
OIL OIL OIL OIL OIL OIL OIL OIL OIL OIL OIL OIL OIL OIL OIL
Is it any coincidence that a new Oil Company President is appointed over the
US by his own party's Supreme Court and that the instant jump in oil prices
is followed by a cry for the blood of the heathen?
Who stands to gain the most from this new mentality of war? A quick look
back at the Gulf War (provoked by Bush Sr. and his ally and henchman Saddam
Hussein) will remind us. Who trained and armed Bin Laden and the Taliban in
a fit of blind anti-Communism? Who (but Dubya) gave Taliban $43 million last
May to aid the US in their puritanical and ineffective drug war. Who
continues to perpetrate malnutrition, illness, and death on innocent Iraqi
children?
Malcolm X's words come back: "Chickens coming home to roost."
Turn on the news or go to any American website and the first thing that
jumps out is PRAYER - there is a dearth of REAL information. Any tidbit that
reveals the true background history of America's role in these events or the
amazing incompetence shown by the American defense is rapidly suppressed.
We're left only with suggestions of news and ever more exhortations to PRAY.
I suppose they had better pray because rationality is in short supply.
The ultimate paranoid viewpoint: perhaps Bush and friends are actually in on
the attack on the World Trade Center. But even if Bush and his cohorts
didn't plan the September 11 events themselves, they are benefitting in
their consolidation of power, clampdown on information, their arrogant
assumptions - their agenda is served well.

(...)

October

(...)

Ten days before our trip, I discovered that the online festival program
called KrashArea a manifestation of the "Radical Jewish Culture" movement.
This angered me greatly and I was able to get this publicity changed. I felt
that it was necessary to additionally clarify matters before the audience
and spoke briefly about my longtime perception that "Radical Jewish Culture"
is just an abhorrent marketing scam exploited by a few musicians and that
religion and nationalism are two of the world's great evils and should be
combatted, not celebrated. This was met with great approval by the audience
- very heartening! I believe that the young Germans who follow new music
understand very well the legacy of nationalism run rampant and have a much
clearer picture of how it creates worldwide damage - much more so than the
insulated and ill-educated Americans, waving flags and dropping bombs.

(...)

On Nov. 24, Ronny and I participate in a panel discussion at the Schausspiel
Theatre about "the arts and Israel in the current crisis." The panel is
moderated by the ORF producer Renata Schmidtkunz and also includes the
incredible Palestinian-Israeli actor Mohammad Bakry; Marwan Abado, a
Palestinian Maronite-Christian virtuoso oudist and composer; and Vera
Goldman, an 80-year old Jewish Israeli choreographer. We are to give brief
opening statements outlining our own personal history and views. Goldman
begins: she is an old-school Zionist and a hippie, good-hearted but in
denial and oblivious to history - in her overly-long monologue, she merely
explains that she just can't seem to understand why Arab Palestinians that
she has known over the years would become hostile. Bakry gives a calm but
impassioned account of his life and work in Israel, displaying his warm
humanistic spirit and clear analysis. He points out that there are no
Palestinian artists from the Occupied Territories represented in the
festival. Abado was born in a refugee camp in Lebanon and his family
suffered humiliation and death at the hands of the Israelis. He lives in
Wien now for some years and focuses his energy and feeling on his music,
refraining from bitterness. Ronny talked about how his Jewish parents, born
and raised in Baghdad, still thought of themselves as Iraqis. He read a few
poems that illustrated the shared love and pain of Arabs and Jews in the
region. In my portion, I talk about my analysis of historical issues and how
I, as a Jew and son of a Holocaust survivor, came to be anti-Zionist,
finding ways in my art to allow audiences to focus in some way on the
current, not in a journalistic sense but in the form of "pointers" or
"signposts." I feel that the artist has a responsibility to devote some of
their energy to this. The issues around the Israeli actions especially pain
me - Jews have traditionally fought against injustice and their historical
role as "victims" has caused them to "fight the good fight" at least until
the rise of Israel, a product of the British Mandate of 1917, when at the
behest of Zionists, the departing imperialists divided Palestine and armed
both sides. Before this act, during the Ottoman rule of the region, Moslems,
Jews, Christians, atheists - ALL were Palestinians and lived in relative
mutual peace and friendship. Herzl's own diaries as he was developing
Zionism reveal his strategy for "ethnic cleansing" and desire to eliminate
the Arab populations from "Jewish regions" of Palestine. When Jews say
"Never again!" it should apply to everybody. The collective world guilt
after the Holocaust allowed the Zionist agenda to be advanced, with deeper
and deeper shockwaves resounding throughout recent years. As the panel
advanced, Goldman slept (thankfully without snoring) and we discussed among
ourselves strategies for artists and what role Americans can have - now
especially after 9-11, Americans must act as part of the solution rather
than continuing as comfortable and detached observers. The panel opened to
questions from the audience, sparking a maelstrom of shouting and
accusations between different factions of the audience - very revealing and
depressing as we watched it unfold. The moderator correctly let the storm
burst and subside, then outlined an orderly approach. I felt that most
questions were more about the audience members venting their own feelings
rather than asking us for responses. Still, some issues dig deeper. After
the discussion, we received much direct feedback from the audience - some
VERY positive (especially an American woman, Jewish and married to a
Palestinian, who leads a local chapter of the organization Women In Black,
opposed to current Israeli policies) and some VERY negative. A few of us
retired to a local cafe for continued discussion, coffee, and beer. I met a
local Palestinian organizer: intelligent, warm, objective, hopeful, not
hateful - but willing to dig in and struggle. That evening, Mohammad Bakry
performed Emile Habibbi's play "The Peptimist." It was an astounding act to
witness: Bakry ranges from Chaplinesque humor to the darkest of rages and
sorrow - he is physical and soulful. The play was performed in Arabic with
German supertitles so I could only understand about 30% - still, much came
through.

http://www.algonet.se/~repple/esharp/road01.html



_________________________________________________________________
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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "s~Z" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: john cage - floodgates part II
Date: 26 Mar 2002 10:33:23 -0800

_Indeterminacy_ by Cage/Tudor

Get it now.

And see Greenaway's film on Cage in his 4 Composers series.

Soon.






-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: john cage - floodgates part II
Date: 26 Mar 2002 15:05:56 EST


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In a message dated 3/26/2002 12:57:51 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:


> i just now am getting into his stuff and could use some suggestions to get a
>
> quick summary of what he is all about. name specific songs rather than
> albums
> as i will probably check out some mp3's before i go and purchase any
> albums.
> one thousand thank-you's. oh and what is the name of that piece that is all
>
> tape splices?
>
>

Although some of Cage's recordings are interesting, I've always found his
several books to be of more interest and more enlightening as to what he's
about.

Dale.

--part1_cb.1fa91290.29d22ea4_boundary
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  COLOR="#0000a0" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SCRIPT" FACE="Comic Sans MS" LANG="0"><B>In a message dated 3/26/2002 12:57:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, [e-mail] writes:<BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></B><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">i just now am getting into his stuff and could use some suggestions to get a <BR>
quick summary of what he is all about. name specific songs rather than albums <BR>
as i will probably check out some mp3's before i go and purchase any albums. <BR>
one thousand thank-you's. oh and what is the name of that piece that is all <BR>
tape splices?<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0000a0" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SCRIPT" FACE="Comic Sans MS" LANG="0"><B><BR>
Although some of Cage's recordings are interesting, I've always found his several books to be of more interest and more enlightening as to what he's about.<BR>
<BR>
Dale.</B></FONT></HTML>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: William Crump <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: john cage - floodgates part II
Date: 26 Mar 2002 14:16:57 -0600

That's interesting. It doesn't speak well of him, does it? He's a
composer, yet his books are more interesting than his music?

William Crump


[e-mail] wrote:

>
> Although some of Cage's recordings are interesting, I've always found
> his several books to be of more interest and more enlightening as to
> what he's about.




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "s~Z" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: john cage - floodgates part II
Date: 26 Mar 2002 12:47:48 -0800

>>>That's interesting. It doesn't speak well of him, does it? He's
a
composer, yet his books are more interesting than his music?<<<

I find John Cage's personality much more interesting than his
music.
That's why I love _Indeterminacy_ and the Greenaway film. They
are great starting points because, in each, you get a generous
dose
of his personality and thought, along with the music. Hearing him
read from his writings is great music. And the combination of
Greenaway,
Cage talking, and footage of a live performance honoring various
aspects of his oeuvre make the Greenaway film essential.



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: john cage - floodgates part II
Date: 26 Mar 2002 12:49:48 -0800


On Tue, 26 Mar 2002 14:16:57 -0600  William Crump wrote:
>
> That's interesting. It doesn't speak well of him, does it? He's a
> composer, yet his books are more interesting than his music?

Yes, more than 50 years after, people curious about modern music still wonder
what to think of John Cage (with the exception of a few early pieces that
aged quite well).

I sometimes imagine Cage in Paradise laughing so loud at the confusion he has
created in modern music.

But I guess we did not try hard enough (which makes you wonder when you cross
the threshold that defines brainwashing...).

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: john cage - floodgates part II
Date: 26 Mar 2002 13:13:08 -0800

on 3/26/02 12:16 PM, William Crump at [e-mail] wrote:

> That's interesting. It doesn't speak well of him, does it? He's a
> composer, yet his books are more interesting than his music?
>
> William Crump
>

I'm in accord with opinion.  His theories are entertaining to read, the
scores entertaining to look at, and, for me, his music is not all that.  His
showmanship definitely outweighed his show, for me.

skip h


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jim Flannery <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: john cage - floodgates part II
Date: 26 Mar 2002 13:18:25 -0800

William Crump wrote:
> [e-mail] wrote:
> > Although some of Cage's recordings are interesting, I've always found
> > his several books to be of more interest and more enlightening as to
> > what he's about.
> That's interesting. It doesn't speak well of him, does it? He's a
> composer, yet his books are more interesting than his music?

Thing is, you'll most often see that line taken by people who've heard
very little of Cage's music. There are pieces of intense beauty
liberally strewn over half a century of work, it's not too difficult to
find one.

--=20
Jim Flannery                                           [e-mail]

         "When I say =91no=92 I=92m always right and when I say =91yes=92=
=20
          I=92m almost always wrong."
                                           -- Dwight Macdonald
np: nothing
nr: George P. Pelecanos, _The Big Blowdown_

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: john cage - floodgates part II
Date: 26 Mar 2002 13:18:56 -0800


On Tue, 26 Mar 2002 13:18:25 -0800  Jim Flannery wrote:
>
> William Crump wrote:
> > [e-mail] wrote:
> > > Although some of Cage's recordings are interesting, I've always found
> > > his several books to be of more interest and more enlightening as to
> > > what he's about.
> > That's interesting. It doesn't speak well of him, does it? He's a
> > composer, yet his books are more interesting than his music?
>
> Thing is, you'll most often see that line taken by people who've heard
> very little of Cage's music. There are pieces of intense beauty
> liberally strewn over half a century of work, it's not too difficult to
> find one.

I have something like 20 Cage records (is it enough?) and I agree with that
opinion also (the man is more entertaining than his music). I can think of 2-3
that I like (I said like, not love) but I could live without the other ones.
Should I keep buying? Sorry, 20 is enough to say stop.

    Patrice.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: john cage - floodgates part II (why then?)
Date: 26 Mar 2002 16:26:11 EST

20 albums huh? and you say you don't find his work that great?

certainly you must find his work atleast extremely intruiging and thus
extremely appealing or else why the hell did you drop all that cash on 20
albums worth of his work? just curious.

mike t.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "PHILIP  PLENCNER" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: No Wave
Date: 26 Mar 2002 15:27:39 -0600

Weasel Walter runs the New York No Wave Archive website...it has some good
No Wave info:
http://pages.ripco.net/~nailhead/nycnowave_index.html

There are a myriad of broken links, but if you poke around enough, there's
some useful information.

*****************************************************************
Phil Plencner - [e-mail]
Drummer, Percussionist, and All Around Great Guy
*****************************************************************
http://www.mp3.com/Phil_Plencner/
http://www.mp3.com/ThePartsMissing/
http://www.mp3.com/stations/PhilsPicks/
*****************************************************************


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: john cage - floodgates part II
Date: 26 Mar 2002 13:43:52 -0800

on 3/26/02 1:18 PM, Patrice L. Roussel at [e-mail] wrote:

> I have something like 20 Cage records (is it enough?) and I agree with that
> opinion also (the man is more entertaining than his music). I can think of 2-3
> that I like (I said like, not love) but I could live without the other ones.
> Should I keep buying? Sorry, 20 is enough to say stop.
>
> Patrice.

For once I'm in complete accordance with Patrice.  Maybe the those amazing
things are there, but, on a batting-average curve, to my ears, the guy just
ain't earning major league pay.

skip h


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: john cage - floodgates part II (why then?)
Date: 26 Mar 2002 13:45:27 -0800

on 3/26/02 1:26 PM, [e-mail] at [e-mail] wrote:

> certainly you must find his work atleast extremely intruiging and thus
> extremely appealing or else why the hell did you drop all that cash on 20
> albums worth of his work? just curious.
>
> mike t.
>
> -

In some cases, he's on records with other composers I'm interested in.
Also, with classical/experimental LP's being cheap and plentiful, I'm the
kind who will invest four or five clams to hear a work I've read about.

skip h


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: john cage - floodgates part II (why then?)
Date: 26 Mar 2002 13:44:56 -0800


On Tue, 26 Mar 2002 16:26:11 EST  [e-mail] wrote:
>
> 20 albums huh? and you say you don't find his work that great?
>
> certainly you must find his work atleast extremely intruiging and thus
> extremely appealing or else why the hell did you drop all that cash on 20
> albums worth of his work? just curious.

No, I think it is simply intimidation. Cage is a holy cow in contemporary
music and this can give the feeling that you are intellectually impaired by
not getting it. Also, yes, some of his compositions are intriguing and since
they are supposed to be historically important (read: mentionned in books on
contemporary music), and since nobody around me has any Cage records, I had
to buy them to form an opinion. And this led me, after 25 years, to own
about 20 records of an artist that I finally realized does almost nothing to
me.

Now you may wonder why I don't give them away. And this leads to the next
point: fetichism in record collecting. This absurd fact that the object has
more value for you than its content...

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jim Flannery <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: john cage - floodgates part II
Date: 26 Mar 2002 14:07:45 -0800

"Patrice L. Roussel" wrote:
>=20
> I can think of 2-3 that I like (I said like, not love) but I could live
> without the other ones.

Send them to me!

> Should I keep buying? Sorry, 20 is enough to say stop.

Probably. Personal taste counts too, obviously (not that you'd know it
from the way people talk this list), as does your interest (patience?
temperament?) in listening to them as they were "intended" (scare quotes
used to avoid the infinite regress of discussing what I mean by
"intention" in re Cage) -- they really flex a different set of "muscles"
than listening to Eliot Carter ;^>. Just out of curiosity, which were
the 2-3?

(My recommendations for starting points: _Three Dances_ (the flip side
of the Angel Reich/_Four Organs_), _26_ (version by Christina Fong on
Ogre/Ogress), the Constructions in Metal, _The City Wears a Slouch Hat_,
_Bird Cage_, _Indeterminacy_, _Ryoanji_ (any version) ... depending on
where you're coming from -- who asked the question, again?)

--=20
Jim Flannery                                           [e-mail]

         "When I say =91no=92 I=92m always right and when I say =91yes=92=
=20
          I=92m almost always wrong."
                                           -- Dwight Macdonald
np: nothing
nr: George P. Pelecanos, _The Big Blowdown_

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: nme <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: no-wave
Date: 26 Mar 2002 14:06:51 -0800 (PST)

http://www.epitonic.com/genres/nowave.html
is pretty OK.

-nathan

--- carlos torres <[e-mail]> wrote:
> with so much obscure no wave out there, i wish there was a way i could
> sample some of it. does any one know of any good no wave comps  (BESIDES NO
> NEW YORK!!!!) or perhaps some websites with good no wave info?? thanks for
> your help
>
> carlos
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Join the worldÆs largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
> http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
> -
>


=====
"Are you amplified to rock?
Are you hoping for a contact?"  -GbV

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards«
http://movies.yahoo.com/

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: john cage.
Date: 26 Mar 2002 17:20:48 EST

i see john cage as more of a conceptual composer.  i don't find much of his music to be very aesthetically pleasing, which i know is just me so don't bother harassing me about it, but his books seriously changed my life and forever solidified cage as one of my favourite composers.  what i find so commendable about cage is his ability to form a highly stylised concept and carry it out with little regard to what it sounds like - he was happy either way - and then try something completely new and not get stuck in a compositional rut.

read 'silence'.

and listen to 'litany for the whale' with the hilliard ensemble.  it's really beautiful.

love,
  kate who is into whale pieces this week

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: john cage - floodgates part II
Date: 26 Mar 2002 17:12:55 -0600

On Tue, Mar 26, 2002 at 02:16:57PM -0600, William Crump wrote:
> That's interesting. It doesn't speak well of him, does it? He's a
> composer, yet his books are more interesting than his music?

It doesn't speak so much of him as to what some choose to see in his
work: different media are more effective fordifferent people Some may
pick up on his ideas more readily from the books, the music, or the
visual art work. However, his books are inseparable from his music, as
he worked in and across multiple media, and the books contain, for
examples, scores to some of the music.

For those who would benefit from reading his books, I recommend highly
"MusiCage" (in collaboration with Joan Retallack), "Silence" (his
first and most influential book), and "John Cage: Writer" (a
posthumous collection).

Of the growing numbers of books by others, I strongly recommend "The
Music of John Cage" by James Pritchett, and the anthology "Writings
About John Cage" edited bu Richard Kostelanetz.

It's also true that just listening to recordings gives only a glimpse
of what's in the music. Attending live performances (even, since the
work is so mutable, multiple live performances) or, even more so,
performing the work gives a much clearer view of what his work is
about. (To the extent that it's about "about" :-])


> [e-mail] wrote:
>
> > Although some of Cage's recordings are interesting, I've always found
> > his several books to be of more interest and more enlightening as to
> > what he's about.

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: john cage - floodgates part II
Date: 26 Mar 2002 17:14:39 -0600

On Tue, Mar 26, 2002 at 12:49:48PM -0800, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:

> But I guess we did not try hard enough (which makes you wonder when you cross
> the threshold that defines brainwashing...).

If you're still wondering, that means you haven't yet :-)

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: john cage - floodgates part II
Date: 26 Mar 2002 17:21:20 -0600

On Tue, Mar 26, 2002 at 01:18:56PM -0800, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:

> I have something like 20 Cage records (is it enough?) and I agree with that
> opinion also (the man is more entertaining than his music). I can think of 2-3
> that I like (I said like, not love) but I could live without the other ones.
> Should I keep buying? Sorry, 20 is enough to say stop.

I keep buying them (well, when I have an income), but I also find that
I listen to some more than others. I don't find an urge to listen to
"Cartridge Music" all that much, but I've been listening a whole lot
of late to his recently released recording of "One^12" and to
"Apartment House 1776".  (Similarly, I've been listening to Zorn's
"The Circle Maker" a lot but not the piece for wind machines, and
rather more to the Velvet Underground than to "Metal Machine Music".)

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: john cage - floodgates part II
Date: 26 Mar 2002 17:24:57 -0600

On Tue, Mar 26, 2002 at 02:07:45PM -0800, Jim Flannery wrote:

> (My recommendations for starting points: _Three Dances_ (the flip side
> of the Angel Reich/_Four Organs_), _26_ (version by Christina Fong on
> Ogre/Ogress), the Constructions in Metal, _The City Wears a Slouch Hat_,
> _Bird Cage_, _Indeterminacy_, _Ryoanji_ (any version) ... depending on
> where you're coming from -- who asked the question, again?)

Interesting to notice that our lists of recommendations have no items
in common. In music ranging well over a half century, there's a lot to
choose from.

BTW, there's a really good discography, etc, up at
http://home.wish.net/~chaudron/cage.html

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Zachary Steiner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: john cage - floodgates part II
Date: 26 Mar 2002 17:42:16 -0500

So are there musicians that put form (means of composition) before the
function (the overall sound) of their music?  Do these artists deserve
the same attention as artists that use the standard form follows
function means of composing music?  Is it a different attention?  Do we
only look at the novel means by which their music is created and ignore
the fact that we don't want to listen to the music all that much?

I just find it interesting that many zorn-listers are quick to exalt
music created with experimental or novel means, but will always go back
to music that "sounds good" (or sounds comfortable) when all is said and
done.  These have been questions that challenge me both as a musician
and a listener as long as I've been pursuing experimental/out there
music.

Zach



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Alan Marshall" <[e-mail]>
Subject: John Zorn: The Gift Live The Barbican
Date: 26 Mar 2002 21:54:01 -0000

John Zorn: The Gift
Monday 25th March The Barbican

This was apparently the world premiere of John Zorn's The Gift Live. In
short it was an amazing gig, incredibly enjoyable. Last year I had the
pleasure of seeing Zorn with Dave Lombardo, Fred Frith and Bill Laswell.
This year the line up was that of the CD

Zorn: "Conductor", bird-calls, theramin
Marc Ribot: guitar
Jamie Saft: Keyboards
Joey Baron Drums
Trev Dunn: Bass (Double Bass on one song)
Cyro Baptista: Percussion
Roberto Rodriguez

Dave Douglas: Trumpet

Dave Douglas turned up for the track he does on the CD, and for the encore
him and Zorn played, the only time Zorn picked up his Sax.

The gig was amazing, there's little point in comparing it to last year,
since that was more in the Metal/Jazz crossover like much of Taboo and Exile
rather than the laid back exotic sounds of the gift.

As much of a fan I am of John Zorn's music, I don't really know the
technical side of things, I just know what I like, and I really liked this,
the CD is very good, but seeing it performed live was incredible. Zorn said
he didn't like doing this sort of music live, which seemed strange because
him (and the rest of the band) seemed to be enjoying themselves a lot,
especially when him and Cyro Baptista were doing bird calls at each other
during a song!

It was very interesting to see how some of the noises on the CD were made
and the wide variety of instruments/objects used! Cyro Baptista's arsenal
included those fluorescent flexi tubes which make a whirring noise when you
twirl them round your head, what looks likes lots of wooden blocks attached
to a net, some gongs, and what I'm guessing is an old Indian instrument. It
looked like a large bow, with a bowl at the bottom, and he plays the one
string using a pick which is like a large toothpick!

It was good to see Zorn use a theramin live, I've seen them played on TV
before but never live, looks very interesting..

As I said I'm not aware of all the technical terms one should use to
describe this type of music, I'll let some-one else talk about the various
techniques and things, what matters to me was that it was a great evening
out.

On a side note, Stuart Lee (comedian of Lee and Herring's Fist of Fun fame)
was sat in front of me!

Alan Marshall

[e-mail]
www.admars.co.uk
www.geocities.com/admars32





-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: john cage - floodgates part II (why then?)
Date: 26 Mar 2002 17:54:45 -0600

On Tue, Mar 26, 2002 at 01:44:56PM -0800, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:

> Cage is a holy cow in contemporary music

Utterly off-topic, but I think you mean "sacred cow". "Holy cow!" is
what one yells when excited at baseball games.

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: john cage - floodgates part II (why then?)
Date: 26 Mar 2002 15:06:58 -0800


On Tue, 26 Mar 2002 17:54:45 -0600  Joseph Zitt wrote:
>
> On Tue, Mar 26, 2002 at 01:44:56PM -0800, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:
>
> > Cage is a holy cow in contemporary music
>
> Utterly off-topic, but I think you mean "sacred cow". "Holy cow!" is
> what one yells when excited at baseball games.

My mistake. Thanks for the correction.

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: john cage - floodgates part II
Date: 26 Mar 2002 15:18:28 -0800

on 3/26/02 2:42 PM, Zachary Steiner at [e-mail] wrote:

> So are there musicians that put form (means of composition) before the
> function (the overall sound) of their music?  Do these artists deserve
> the same attention as artists that use the standard form follows
> function means of composing music?  Is it a different attention?  Do we
> only look at the novel means by which their music is created and ignore
> the fact that we don't want to listen to the music all that much?


These are some pretty serious questions, especially when you consider how
much fraudulent wheedling passes itself as "experimental".  Ever notice that
these questions tend to be levelled more at the work of media-savvy hipsters
like Cage rather than at composers like Varese, whose work is certainly no
less experimental.  Varese, when asked about "experimental" music said the
experiment is whether or not the composition will work.  He didn't run a
whole lot of shit down.  He did music, and he did it really good.

I think if you wanna be a pedagogue, that's one job.  I think that composers
who resort to that kind of approach to self-promotion are begging that we
make our assessment of their work based on novel means rather than whether
or not we found it interesting or moving as a piece of music.  That we don't
want to listen to their music all that much is a natural human instinct.
It's generally not fun to hear.  You can prove all the scientific/sonic
theorums you like, but, in the end, it's the sound of numbers (often enough
mixed with a little performance art, termed "multi-discilinary" for good PR
effect).  Not that there aren't experimental composers doing actual musical
music with all that information.  But they're not as adept at manipulating
the press and the foundations who give big grants, so you don't hear about
them as much.

> I just find it interesting that many zorn-listers are quick to exalt
> music created with experimental or novel means, but will always go back
> to music that "sounds good" (or sounds comfortable) when all is said and
> done.

Wonderful point and beautifully made.  You could have even gone further.  A
lot of us are living through some sort of reaction against anything we
percieve as somehow provincial, as if to do so makes us agents of something
more forward-looking.  But, at the end of the day, Miles Davis seems to win
out on most turntables in these parts.

> These have been questions that challenge me both as a musician
> and a listener as long as I've been pursuing experimental/out there
> music.

Maybe the key is to disregard the questions and just do what's in your
heart.  Trust your own musical judgement and make what you like.

skip h


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "John Thomas"<[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: john cage - floodgates part II
Date: 26 Mar 2002 17:23:13 -0600

The prepared and toy piano pieces as performed
by Margaret Leng Tan.

http://www.newalbion.com/artists/tanml/

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Kurt Gottschalk" <[e-mail]>
Subject: cagey
Date: 26 Mar 2002 23:27:09 +0000

not trying to disparage anyone or their opinions, but...

for years, years, i went around saying 'cage is a philosopher, not a
composer.' i don't know that he'd be bothered by that, either. but recently
it has started to click for me. some i don't care for (the mesozoics, yeah,
i know, that's not really what they're called). but some of it is just
beautiful.

starting point is DEFINITELY sonatas and interludes for prepared piano.
freakin beauty, that.

kg
nr: the roaring silence - john cage: a life by david revill

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: john cage - floodgates part II
Date: 26 Mar 2002 18:26:40 -0600

On Tue, Mar 26, 2002 at 05:42:16PM -0500, Zachary Steiner wrote:
> So are there musicians that put form (means of composition) before the
> function (the overall sound) of their music?  Do these artists deserve
> the same attention as artists that use the standard form follows
> function means of composing music?  Is it a different attention?  Do we
> only look at the novel means by which their music is created and ignore
> the fact that we don't want to listen to the music all that much?

Well, I don't think not listening to a piece all that much is necessary
relative to its worth. Some music rewards full-attention listening and
frustrates low-attention listening, so that I wouldn't, for example,
pop it in the CD player when online. While I probably listen to, say,
Ricky Martin more than Robert Ashley, it doesn't mean much as to which is
better music.

I also wouldn't connect "function" with "the overall sound" -- I would
think of the function of a CD as involving the situations and ways in
which one would choose to listen to it.

What is the function of the Parachute Years game pieces?

Also, in many cases, the sound that is on a CD is not the same as the
piece that is being played. This is true of the game pieces (which is
why there are several released recordings), almost all opera (which
was created with an essential visual component), jazz standards (no
recording of "Cherokee" is absolutely the piece itself) and much of
Cage's work. (He didn't find much of a use for recordings of his music
himself, though he appreciated and helped in recording it for the
purpose of documentation.)

There's a common misconception that, throughout his career, Cage
didn't care what his pieces sounded like. Recent writings on how
closely related his early percussion works were to the specific set of
instruments on which they were composed, as well as his late comments
on the process of working out his "Hyms and Variations" for chorus
showed that he did care, in many instances, what it sounded like, and
worked hard to make it work.

(I find the more haphazardly abstract work, such as "Theatre Piece"
(which I've performed) and the Variations series (which I haven't)
less interesting. But that was one period of his work, and other areas
of it are more to my taste, more specific and more interesting. It was
interesting to see how, in his last years, he became very precise in
specifying what a piece involved, and in seeing which parameters could
be specified or left out.)

> I just find it interesting that many zorn-listers are quick to exalt
> music created with experimental or novel means, but will always go back
> to music that "sounds good" (or sounds comfortable) when all is said and
> done.  These have been questions that challenge me both as a musician
> and a listener as long as I've been pursuing experimental/out there
> music.

These are far from contradictory (though I think equating "sounds
good" with "sounds comfortable" might lead to that confusion). I find
much of the music that I most enjoy *both* was created in interesting
ways and results in sounds that i find pleasing. Think of it as
JiffyPop: as much fun to make as it is to eat :-)

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
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| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Caleb T. Deupree" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: john cage - floodgates part II
Date: 26 Mar 2002 18:32:52 -0500

At 12:56 PM 3/26/02 EST, [e-mail] wrote:
>if i wanted a few highlights of john cage's various works, what would you
>recommend?

In my younger days, I spent a lot of time playing Cage's early piano music,
including some of the prepared piano pieces.  I'd recommend these as a good
introduction, although I don't have any specific recordings to recommend.
Starting from Music of Changes, his piano music got a lot harder to play,
and after I stopped playing and started working for a living instead, I
stopped listening to Cage's music, feeling the way a lot of people have
stated here, that his music was more interesting as a concept than as a
listening experience.

What changed my mind on his music was the number pieces (which he hadn't
even written when I was playing piano).  The number pieces are so called
because the title is the number of performers (so all the ones called
'Four' are for four performers) and the superscript is which one he wrote
chronologically.  I won't go into the technical aspect of what makes them
different, but as a series they are the last pieces he wrote.

I think the first one I heard was Ulrich Kreiger's overdubbed version of
Four^5 on his OODisc release Walls of Sound.  The long, sustained sounds
were revelation after the pointillistic Music of Changes and the fairly
primitive early piano pieces.  I'd still recommend this release highly, and
I've gone on to find other number pieces, many of which I've really liked
too.  Fourteen, for bowed piano and ensemble, is available on a couple of
different releases, both excellent (and one of them by the previously
mentioned Stephen Drury on bowed piano), both highly recommended.  And
there's a beautiful solo piano piece (called -- wait for it -- One), and
Louis Goldstein performs it paired with Morton Feldman's Triadic Memories
in a superb release on Offseason.


--

Caleb Deupree
[e-mail]

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: john cage - floodgates part II
Date: 26 Mar 2002 18:35:34 -0600

On Tue, Mar 26, 2002 at 03:18:28PM -0800, skip Heller wrote:

> These are some pretty serious questions, especially when you consider how
> much fraudulent wheedling passes itself as "experimental".  Ever notice that
> these questions tend to be levelled more at the work of media-savvy hipsters
> like Cage rather than at composers like Varese, whose work is certainly no
> less experimental.  Varese, when asked about "experimental" music said the
> experiment is whether or not the composition will work.  He didn't run a
> whole lot of shit down.  He did music, and he did it really good.

Good points, as always. Though I don't think being media-savvy is at all
a bad thing.

> That we don't
> want to listen to their music all that much is a natural human instinct.
> It's generally not fun to hear.

But what is, in the general abstract, "fun to hear"? You can find people
who can't stand any genre you like. Remember that a poll of what most
people find fun to hear would rank Britney Spears much higher than
"Leng T'che". (I like both.)

> You can prove all the scientific/sonic
> theorums you like, but, in the end, it's the sound of numbers (often enough
> mixed with a little performance art, termed "multi-discilinary" for good PR
> effect).  Not that there aren't experimental composers doing actual musical
> music with all that information.  But they're not as adept at manipulating
> the press and the foundations who give big grants, so you don't hear about
> them as much.

Thus showing that being media-savvy is a skill well worth learning.

> > These have been questions that challenge me both as a musician
> > and a listener as long as I've been pursuing experimental/out there
> > music.
>
> Maybe the key is to disregard the questions and just do what's in your
> heart.  Trust your own musical judgement and make what you like.

Definitely.

n.p. Us and Them: Symphonic Pink Floyd

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
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| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jim Flannery <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: john cage - floodgates part II
Date: 26 Mar 2002 16:00:09 -0800

Zachary Steiner wrote:
>=20
> Do these artists deserve the same attention as artists that use the
> standard form follows function means of composing music?  Is it a
> different attention?

Well. I think they *demand* a different attention, but I'm using the
"pay attention" differently ;^> ... not how renowned they are, but how
you organize the auditory stimuli when you're in the room with their
work.

I don't think you necessarily listen to them (pay attention to them) in
the same way -- that's really what Cage's writing is centered on, the
injunction to listen to the *sounds*, rather than listening to the
*process*. You *don't* listen to some aleatory process that you read
about in a book, the way you listen to thematic development in a Mahler
symphony; the process is a means to make it more possible for you to
concentrate on the sounds, in the *absence* of compositional
manipulation. Cage is as far from what Skip calls "the sound of numbers"
as you can get; it's the sound of sound.

It's kind of pointless to listen to the mature Cage in the same way you
listen to Mahler (unless you're making a discipline out of learning
pointlessness); it can, however, be rewarding to listen to Mahler in the
way you listen to Cage :-).

--=20
Jim Flannery                                           [e-mail]

         "When I say =91no=92 I=92m always right and when I say =91yes=92=
=20
          I=92m almost always wrong."
                                           -- Dwight Macdonald

np: stupid Fisherman's Wharf Fire Truck lady, outside my window
nr: George P. Pelecanos, _The Big Blowdown_

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: john cage - floodgates part II
Date: 26 Mar 2002 16:04:41 -0800

on 3/26/02 4:35 PM, Joseph Zitt at [e-mail] wrote:

>Though I don't think being media-savvy is at all
> a bad thing.
>
If it gets wannabe stuff the ink -- ahead of the real stuff -- the only
person it's good for is the perpetrator.  The audience loses.
>
> But what is, in the general abstract, "fun to hear"? You can find people
> who can't stand any genre you like. Remember that a poll of what most
> people find fun to hear would rank Britney Spears much higher than
> "Leng T'che". (I like both.)

In actual application, you can clear a room pretty fast by putting on a
record of any Milton Babbit or Morton Subtonick piece you wanna name.
"Ionisation" won't do the job nearly as effectively.  I found this out when
I was trying to end a surprise birthday party threw me a few years back.
Most of the people in the room were the type of folk who listen to abstrct
music of one sort or another.  But their girlfriends would not have let them
run if I had put on anything remotely danceable.

As for the brittney thing, it aims at a low, broad target, so it's not
pretending to be anything other than exactly what it is -- aural twinkies.
Whereas a great deal of "progressive" music purports to be something really
smashing, and it's just terrible.  Structurally ain't happening,
badly-executed from a conceptual standpoint, and often enough just plain
ugly-sounding.  But it's presented in such a way that, if you're not
pounding your chest over it, horror of horrors, you're not hip.  Brittney
doesn't come with this kind of baggage (as long as she functions at 120
bpm).

>Thus showing that being media-savvy is a skill well worth learning.

Depending on how you define your own life in music.

skip h


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jim Flannery <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: john cage - floodgates part II
Date: 26 Mar 2002 16:17:50 -0800

skip Heller wrote:
>=20
> any Milton Babbit or Morton Subtonick piece you wanna name.

_The Key of Dreams_ seems to work pretty ok for "electronica" fans, if
less so for Subotnick fans.

--=20
Jim Flannery                                           [e-mail]

         "When I say =91no=92 I=92m always right and when I say =91yes=92=
=20
          I=92m almost always wrong."
                                           -- Dwight Macdonald
np: nothing
nr: George P. Pelecanos, _The Big Blowdown_

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "s~Z" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: cagey
Date: 26 Mar 2002 16:32:00 -0800

starting point is DEFINITELY sonatas and interludes for prepared
piano.
freakin beauty, that.

YES. I forgot this one. That and Indeterminacy continue to get
scores of hours of actual playing time at my house.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: john cage - floodgates part II
Date: 26 Mar 2002 19:40:23 -0600

On Tue, Mar 26, 2002 at 04:04:41PM -0800, skip Heller wrote:

> In actual application, you can clear a room pretty fast by putting on a
> record of any Milton Babbit or Morton Subtonick piece you wanna name.

This is not true, in my experience, of the early well-known Subotnick
pieces.

> "Ionisation" won't do the job nearly as effectively.

Well, that's one of the few pieces that the GM at my college radio station told
me *never* to play again, or any "noise like it".

> I found this out when
> I was trying to end a surprise birthday party threw me a few years back.
> Most of the people in the room were the type of folk who listen to abstrct
> music of one sort or another.  But their girlfriends would not have let them
> run if I had put on anything remotely danceable.

We stopped having room-clearing contests in college when the consensus
was that we'd never beat two records I had just bought: Yoko Ono's
"Fly" and Lou Reed's "Metal Machine Music".


> >Thus showing that being media-savvy is a skill well worth learning.
>
> Depending on how you define your own life in music.

But would you agree that talent plus media savvy is more effective
than talent without it? Is there anything wrong with fame, if you have
the talent to back it up?

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Holy Cow! john cage
Date: 26 Mar 2002 19:54:30 EST


--part1_98.236c1f98.29d27246_boundary
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In a message dated 3/26/2002 6:06:17 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:


> On Tue, Mar 26, 2002 at 01:44:56PM -0800, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:
>
> > Cage is a holy cow in contemporary music
>
> Utterly off-topic, but I think you mean "sacred cow". "Holy cow!" is
> what one yells when excited at baseball games.
>
Well now that I think about it, wouldn't Cage have just LOVED being called a
"holy cow"?

Dale.

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  COLOR="#0000a0" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SCRIPT" FACE="Comic Sans MS" LANG="0"><B>In a message dated 3/26/2002 6:06:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, [e-mail] writes:<BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></B><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">On Tue, Mar 26, 2002 at 01:44:56PM -0800, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Cage is a holy cow in contemporary music<BR>
<BR>
Utterly off-topic, but I think you mean "sacred cow". "Holy cow!" is<BR>
what one yells when excited at baseball games.<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0000a0" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SCRIPT" FACE="Comic Sans MS" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE><B><BR>
Well now that I think about it, wouldn't Cage have just LOVED being called a "holy cow"? <BR>
<BR>
Dale.</B></FONT></HTML>

--part1_98.236c1f98.29d27246_boundary--

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: cagey
Date: 26 Mar 2002 19:49:07 -0600

On Tue, Mar 26, 2002 at 11:27:09PM +0000, Kurt Gottschalk wrote:

> for years, years, i went around saying 'cage is a philosopher, not a
> composer.' i don't know that he'd be bothered by that, either. but recently
> it has started to click for me. some i don't care for (the mesozoics, yeah,
> i know, that's not really what they're called). but some of it is just
> beautiful.

Oh yeah, another Cage to avoid (except perhaps for extreme Mike Patton
fans): the recording of the Sixty-two Mesostics re Merce Cunningham
(on HatArt by Eberhard Blum), which sounds like two hours of Klingons
barfing. (OTOH, at http://www.lafolia.com/v1n5/random.htm , Mike
Silverton praises it highly.)

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: john cage - floodgates part II
Date: 26 Mar 2002 20:00:21 EST


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In a message dated 3/26/2002 7:02:25 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:


> In actual application, you can clear a room pretty fast by putting on a
> record of any Milton Babbit or Morton Subtonick piece you wanna name.
>

Subotnick?? Really?? I think his piece "Return" is gorgeous, captivating,
entertaining, and would get anyone's attention that is half-listening to it.

Dale.

--part1_120.d870891.29d273a5_boundary
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  COLOR="#0000a0" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SCRIPT" FACE="Comic Sans MS" LANG="0"><B>In a message dated 3/26/2002 7:02:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, [e-mail] writes:<BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></B><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">In actual application, you can clear a room pretty fast by putting on a<BR>
record of any Milton Babbit or Morton Subtonick piece you wanna name.<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0000a0" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SCRIPT" FACE="Comic Sans MS" LANG="0"><B><BR>
Subotnick?? Really?? I think his piece "Return" is gorgeous, captivating, entertaining, and would get anyone's attention that is half-listening to it.<BR>
<BR>
Dale.</B></FONT></HTML>

--part1_120.d870891.29d273a5_boundary--

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: john cage - floodgates part II
Date: 26 Mar 2002 17:05:40 -0800

on 3/26/02 5:40 PM, Joseph Zitt at [e-mail] wrote:

> On Tue, Mar 26, 2002 at 04:04:41PM -0800, skip Heller wrote:
>
>> In actual application, you can clear a room pretty fast by putting on a
>> record of any Milton Babbit or Morton Subtonick piece you wanna name.
>
> This is not true, in my experience, of the early well-known Subotnick
> pieces.

I probably wasn't playing those.  The ones I had records of were
terrifically unpleasant.


> We stopped having room-clearing contests in college when the consensus
> was that we'd never beat two records I had just bought: Yoko Ono's
> "Fly" and Lou Reed's "Metal Machine Music".

Those'll work, for sure. Hell, they'll get me out of there pretty fast.
>

> But would you agree that talent plus media savvy is more effective
> than talent without it? Is there anything wrong with fame, if you have
> the talent to back it up?

Living in Hollywood and seeing different versions of fame in action has
taught me that there's no hard & fast answer for that.

I think that all depends on the degree of fame (is Dave Douglas "famous"?),
what you did that made you famous (Mike Nesmith's very formidable talent did
not make him famous), and, not least of all, the indivdual to whom the fame
comes (fame hasn't helped Brian Wilson too damn much).  I don't think John
Hartford hated "Gentle On My Mind", but it led to his (fantastic) quote, "Be
careful what you get famous for."

There have been so many people for whom was detrimental that asking if
there's anything wrong with fame is to bring in a question with so many
different kinds of implications that we'd need to start a new group.

skip h


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: subotnick.
Date: 26 Mar 2002 21:02:08 EST

In actual application, you can clear a room pretty >fast by putting on a
>record of any Milton Babbit or Morton Subtonick >piece you wanna name.

>Subotnick?? Really?? I think his piece "Return" is >gorgeous, captivating, entertaining, and would get >anyone's attention that is half-listening to it.

what about silver apples of the moon, huh?  cool enough for a crazy indie band to name themselves after it...

:)

love,
  k8.



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "s~Z" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: john cage - floodgates part II
Date: 26 Mar 2002 19:30:41 -0800

>>>Maybe the key is to disregard the questions and just do what's
in your
heart.  Trust your own musical judgment and make what you like.<<<

Were you doing needlepoint when you posted that?


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: john cage - floodgates part II
Date: 26 Mar 2002 22:24:36 -0600

On Tue, Mar 26, 2002 at 07:30:41PM -0800, s~Z wrote:
> >>>Maybe the key is to disregard the questions and just do what's
> in your
> heart.  Trust your own musical judgment and make what you like.<<<
>
> Were you doing needlepoint when you posted that?

Do you disagree with it?

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: john cage - floodgates part II
Date: 26 Mar 2002 19:39:45 -0800

on 3/26/02 7:30 PM, s~Z at [e-mail] wrote:

>>>> Maybe the key is to disregard the questions and just do what's
> in your
> heart.  Trust your own musical judgment and make what you like.<<<
>
> Were you doing needlepoint when you posted that?
>

No, you cynical prick.  It's something I remind myself to do when people
want to offer me money to play music I hate.  This kind of attitude won't
make you richer, but it will keep you from looking at music in a hateful
way.

skip h


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Steve Smith" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: john cage - floodgates part II
Date: 26 Mar 2002 22:44:29 -0500

Much to my surprise, this has just been reissued on CD by EMI. But, as one
wag recently said to me, ANY release from EMI Classics is a limited edition
(since they go out of print so damned quickly), so if you're interested,
it's cheap. Grab it now, while you can.

Steve Smith
[e-mail]
(who doesn't have all that many Cage records, but this is certainly one of
them...)

-----Original Message-----
[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Jim Flannery
Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2002 5:08 PM

(My recommendations for starting points: _Three Dances_ (the flip side
of the Angel Reich/_Four Organs_)


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: well well well
Date: 26 Mar 2002 23:46:46 EST

i see that even going as far as to title my post "floodgates" was still a bit
understated. thank you to all who answered me politely and my humble
apologies to those who hate me now for ever bringing up such a volitile topic
as John Cage.

i've got a new one for ya - just so we can maybe move on...ok, i played
patton's "adult themes for voice" in my music theory class today -
specifically "the man in the lower lefthand corner of the picture."  the
instructor loved it - he was already a mr. bungle fan. anyways a fellow
student came up to me and says, "sure it's innovative or atleast new to me,
but is it really music? i told him i felt it was. and continued on to say
that to me music is simply any form of audio that can change your physical or
psychological feelings at that very moment in time.

did it take you to a place that you would not have gone had you been sitting
here in silence?

that's how i define music it's it's most general form.

even the noisy or unpleasant stuff you guys/gals say you've bought and never
play again past the first or second listen - it was new to you then and it
had your attention for that moment in time. even if it's the sound of the fan
in the computer next to you that reminds you of that old fridge that used to
always hum down in your parents basement. it takes you mentally somewhere
else - it changes your mood like it or not. that to me is music.

ok perhaps i went on a tad much there, but my extremely broad question to
this group is WHAT IS THE DEFINITION OF MUSIC TO YOU? and please don't bicker
back and forth a thousand times if someone has a different opinion than
yours. as i am certain not all agree with my pathetic attempt - i will not
question your personal definition. i am just incredibly curious to hear what
you all have to say.

mike t


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: well well well
Date: 26 Mar 2002 23:50:25 -0600

On Tue, Mar 26, 2002 at 11:46:46PM -0500, [e-mail] wrote:

> ok perhaps i went on a tad much there, but my extremely broad question to
> this group is WHAT IS THE DEFINITION OF MUSIC TO YOU? and please don't bicker> back and forth a thousand times if someone has a different opinion than
> yours. as i am certain not all agree with my pathetic attempt - i will not
> question your personal definition. i am just incredibly curious to hear what
> you all have to say.

For me, IMHO, blahblahblah, music is a way of listening to sound (and
not necessarily a way of creating it, though the term is also used for
sound that is created with the intent of people giving it that quality
of attention). Anything that you choose to listen to as music is music
for you; anything that you choose not to listen to as music isn't.

If Bishop Berkeley falls in a forest, the ants are squashed.

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: well well well
Date: 26 Mar 2002 22:10:10 -0800

>WHAT IS THE DEFINITION OF MUSIC TO YOU? and please don't bicker
> back and forth a thousand times if someone has a different opinion than
> yours. as i am certain not all agree with my pathetic attempt - i will not
> question your personal definition. i am just incredibly curious to hear what
> you all have to say.
>
> mike t
>
If it can be recieved (or "felt") as music, then to the listener, it is
music to that person.  So much that was not designed or executed as music --
birdcalls in nature, for instance -- "feel" musical to a great many
listeners.  Kind of moves past the definable place.

I think it's like the definition of pornography.  I can't tell you what  is
except that you'll know when you're faced with some.


skip h


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From: "josephneff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Well Well Well
Date: 27 Mar 2002 01:48:03 -0500

Hello,
      ....What is my definition of music? Good music? It's when I hear
something and I know that it couldn't be expressed as effectively any other
way. And it doesn't have to be perfect (some of the greatest music has
flaws), and it doesn't have to be flagrantly non-commercial (or vice-versa,
natch), and it doesn't have to be grandiose in it's intentions. It only
needs to make its way into my consciousness, and then stay there.

I remain...

Joseph

NP: John Cage- "In a Landscape" CD
NR: Flannery O'Connor- "Wise Blood"


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From: "Andreas Dietz" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Joe Harriott
Date: 27 Mar 2002 12:13:52 +0100

I┤ve seen an offer of some CDs (Indo-Jazz Fusions I & II, Free Form) of Joe
Harriott but have no idea what to expect. The only indication is the Ken
Vandermark band of the same name (which I haven┤t heard either but lot┤s of
other Vandermark of course). Is it worth some bucks?

Andreas

np: Derome/Lussier: Soyez Vigilants, Restez Vivan



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: duncan youngerman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: RJC
Date: 27 Mar 2002 12:53:52 +0100



Stephen Fruitman a =E9crit :

> >> >aboriginal Jewishness
>
> >>"aboriginal: inhabiting or existing in a land from the earliest times or
> >>before
> >the arrival of colonists"
> >-Oxford concise dictionary
> >=2E=2E=2E=2E I'm at a loss at what you could
> >find disturbing here=2E
> >Could it be that because this term has often been used in connection with=
 less
> >developped, animist cultures, it is pejorative in your eyes?
>
> No, it is the reference to "place" - as if the RJC series is propagating
> for a return to the Land of Israel like some kind of reactionary settler=
=2E

Zionism, mentioned in programs in connection with Zorn's music, is very much=
 about
place=2E


> >> >an ambiguous dual dimension of race and religion
>
> >Why do you pretend to ignore that the notion of Jewishness can encompass
> >both or
> >either religious and/or racial aspects, and that antisemitism is racism?
>
> There is "racism" in the world; but there are no "races"=2E

My original phrase could have been: <an ambiguous dual dimension of ethnicit=
y and
religion>

>
> The notion of Jewishness indeed extends to an array of aspects=2E That=B4s=
 why
> I like to see Judaism as a culture or ethnicity, _originally_ based on a
> religious faith but since the 1700s more and more multifarious=2E

Can you explain to me what Serge Gainsbourg, notorious French atheist, has t=
o do
with Jewishness?

>

DY=2E


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From: "Arthur Gadney" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: RJC
Date: 27 Mar 2002 13:11:07 +0000

>Zionism, mentioned in programs in connection with Zorn's music, is very
>much about
>place.

Doesn't Zorn only talk about "cultural zionism"? Not sure exactly what that
means, but perhaps it's a call for a Jewish place in culture, instead of a
piece of earth?

Don't know what Zotn thinks about Israel, but a call for a strong modern
Jewish culture has been heard from him from time to time...!

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: What is music?
Date: 27 Mar 2002 08:24:03 EST


--part1_162.b1ee89b.29d321f3_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I don't think you've gone on too long at all Mike, I found the Cage banter
really interesting. And as for a definition, I've always liked "Music is
organised sound." ....Varese I think? Anyone with a better memory than me?

Dale.

In a message dated 3/26/2002 11:47:43 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:


> ok perhaps i went on a tad much there, but my extremely broad question to
> this group is WHAT IS THE DEFINITION OF MUSIC TO YOU?


--part1_162.b1ee89b.29d321f3_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  COLOR="#0000a0" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SCRIPT" FACE="Comic Sans MS" LANG="0"><B>I don't think you've gone on too long at all Mike, I found the Cage banter really interesting. And as for a definition, I've always liked "Music is organised sound." ....Varese I think? Anyone with a better memory than me?<BR>
<BR>
Dale.<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 3/26/2002 11:47:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, [e-mail] writes:<BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></B><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">ok perhaps i went on a tad much there, but my extremely broad question to <BR>
this group is WHAT IS THE DEFINITION OF MUSIC TO YOU? </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0000a0" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SCRIPT" FACE="Comic Sans MS" LANG="0"><B><BR>
</B></FONT></HTML>
--part1_162.b1ee89b.29d321f3_boundary--

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From: aaron chua <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: john cage - floodgates part II
Date: 27 Mar 2002 06:19:16 -0800 (PST)

i'm a bit of a novice myself, but i found the cage
piece on sonic youth's _goodbye_ to be highly
enjoyable leading me to investigate the piece as
recorded  by the arditti qtet on mode.
also frm memory quartets i-viii on hathut and string
qurtet in 4 parts ... ( i'll admit i don't listen to
these v often;--->
which leads me to ask; i find that i don't usually
listen to pieces that i enjoy very often; spending my
time either w/ newer pieces or perhaps ( at least this
used to be the case) pieces i didn't _get_.
does anyone else find this in their listening habits?

rgrds
aaron



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From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Nick=20Cain?= <[e-mail]>
Subject: Zorn 'Gift' live in London
Date: 27 Mar 2002 14:40:51 +0000 (GMT)

Further to yesterday's mention of Zorn performing 'The
Gift' live in London - the reviews in the daily
newspapers here have been, it would be fair to say,
mixed at best. The 'Times' went so far as to refer to
it as "a tepid collage of easy-listening jazz and surf
rock" and a "gross disappointment". In order of most
enthusiastic to least...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/reviews/story/0,3604,674599,00.html

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,685-249396,00.html

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/dynamic/hottx/music/top_review.html?in_review_id=527674&in_review_text_id=499490

and from the Daily Telegraph (you have to register to
get to read it, hence text is pasted below):

"Exotic excursions then Zorn blows his horn"

JOHN ZORN tends to provoke controversy. Perhaps best
known as a leading improvising saxophonist of the
downtown New York scene, he has more musical
personalities than most people could cope with in a
single life.

First, there is the Ornette-Coleman-inspired alto
saxophonist. Then there's the trickster, whose game
pieces force musicians into sudden silences or violent
twists of genre. For a while in the Eighties, he
played the avant-rock superstar, with his
punk-Stravinsky Naked City project. Recent years have
seen him establish a new radical Jewish identity, and
projects such as Kristallnacht and Masada mix Jewish
folk melodies with free-jazz blowing.

The Zorn on view at the Barbican was yet another
beast. With guitarist Mark Ribot as featured soloist,
we were taken on an easy-listening journey through the
Fifties and Sixties; lounge, surf, swamp blues, South
Sea Island and Latin numbers echoed around the hall.

It was like being privy to a film soundtrack recording
session circa 1965; one moment one thought of Austin
Powers, the next one of those surreal disco scenes in
Thunderbirds. There was even a theramin to conjure the
electronic whooshes associated with old sci-fi movies.
The arrival of Dave Douglas on trumpet, as he blew
mournful phrases over romantic chords, transported us
to the rainy-streets-at-night territory of film noir.

Zorn's jazz following were somewhat perplexed by these
stylistic gyrations, as well as by the lead man's
failure to play saxophone, as he sat and directed
proceedings from a couple of ancient electric organs.
"Why, why, why, why?" one of them moaned in the row
behind me. And yet this was a great gig. Zorn's
seven-piece band, which included regulars drummer Joey
Baron and percussionist Cyro Baptista, were superb at
styling the different genres, and capable of jumping
from extreme delicacy to full-on blowing in an
instant.

For an encore Zorn finally made the jazz fans happy.
He picked up his horn, and, with Douglas as
co-conspirator, launched into a scorching 15-minute
Masada track. It ended up as a wild blow which
recalled the Miles Davis of the Get Up With It period.

Zorn has always insisted that he simply plays the
styles he likes, and that his genre-hopping is not
intended as a provocation. When the music is this much
fun, you just have to take him at his word, and hang
on to your seat.
Richard Wolfson


=====
www.info.net.nz/opprobrium

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Joe Harriott
Date: 27 Mar 2002 10:52:53 -0500

>I┤ve seen an offer of some CDs (Indo-Jazz >Fusions I & II, Free Form) of Joe Harriott but >have no idea what to expect.

The two Indo-Jazz albums are great, just the sort of thing I'd always wished this kind of blend would be: sitars, tabla but still definitely jazz.  His Free Form and Abstract albums are closer to the Vandermark release; they're certainly fine work but don't really "get" me like the Indo-Jazz stuff.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Joe Harriott
Date: 27 Mar 2002 11:16:28 -0500 (EST)

Folks:

Historically all Harriott CDS are interesting,
musically you have to consider them in the context of
their times -- the mid to late 1960s.

Indo-Jazz was an attempt at Eastern-Western fusion
before John McLaughlin and used much better jazz
players than John et. al. The Harriott "free" CDs are
notable because his West Indian-influenced, freebop
was put together before he ever heard Ornette
Coleman's work and developed in a parallel manner.

Ken Waxman

--- [e-mail] wrote:
> >I┤ve seen an offer of some CDs (Indo-Jazz >Fusions
> I & II, Free Form) of Joe Harriott but >have no idea
> what to expect.
>
> The two Indo-Jazz albums are great, just the sort of
> thing I'd always wished this kind of blend would be:
> sitars, tabla but still definitely jazz.  His Free
> Form and Abstract albums are closer to the
> Vandermark release; they're certainly fine work but
> don't really "get" me like the Indo-Jazz stuff.
>

=====
Ken Waxman
[e-mail]
www.jazzword.com - Jazz/improv news, CD reviews and photos

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: William Crump <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: well well well
Date: 27 Mar 2002 11:08:40 -0600

[e-mail] wrote:

>WHAT IS THE DEFINITION OF MUSIC TO YOU?
>
I took a music theory class a few years ago when I was working at Ole
Miss, very helpful in helping this non-musician understand what I was
listening to a little better. I've always like the definition of music
put forth by the grad-assistant instructor, a hard-working cocktail-jazz
alto sax player from Memphis who was trying to get a master's degree
while working in six or seven bands to make ends meet. He may have
gotten this from someone else, but I don't remember the attribution if
he did.

Music = the organization of sounds and silences.

Simple and elegant. I can't think of anything this definition doesn't cover.

>and please don't bicker
>back and forth a thousand times if someone has a different opinion than
>yours.
>
Waaaahhhh!! You NEVER let me have ANY fun!!  (Stomp stomp stomp, face
turning blue...)

William Crump


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Kurt Gottschalk" <[e-mail]>
Subject: music defined (indeterminacy)
Date: 27 Mar 2002 17:29:00 +0000

(to be read aloud, 60 seconds given to each paragraph, with the tv playing
in the background)



i pretty much agree with skip'n'zitt, music is a way of receiving sound
waves. cage'd like that too. i'm not completely happy with it as a
definition, but i can't imagine anything else covering what needs to be
covered.

"if you got to ask, you ain't never gonna know." --louie armstrong, when
asked to define jazz.

a rocker friend of mine has taken a recent (and surprising) interest in what
i listen to, which for years he's referred to as "the sound of stuff falling
off shelves." he went to see okkyung lee/alan licht/tim barnes/anthony
coleman with me, and listened pretty intently to jon rose/otomo yoshide's
tokyo shopping record. his conclusion: "you're not interested in music,
you're interested in sound." which is fine with me.

"if it isn't a sound, why isn't it?" --john cage

i played otomo's "cathode" for an old girlfriend. her response: "this is
interesting. could we listen to some music now?" the same disc led my cousin
to demand that i take it off, and anger her that i would impose such a thing
on her.

"there's two kinds of music. we play the good kind." --duke ellington

the question, i think, or at least the interesting question, is not 'what is
music?' but 'what's good music?' same is true in any of the arts. getting
hung up on what qualifies it into the class leads, i think, to a
head-numbing talk. but what makes it good, that's where we get to dance.

"i hate music" --yamantaka eye

a scottish friend tells me that the "art is whatever is presented as art" is
a particularly american (and in her view ridiculous) standard.

"i love the sound of breaking glass" --david bowie

(89 more to go...)


kurt

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Arthur Gadney" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fred Frith mailing list
Date: 27 Mar 2002 17:40:24 +0000

Hello.

Is anybody else here on the Fred Frith mailing list?? Is it working at all
anymore?

NP: "Strings" by Eugene Chadbourne
NR: http://www.aril.org/galtung.htm




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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Kurt Gottschalk" <[e-mail]>
Subject: d'oh!
Date: 27 Mar 2002 17:40:23 +0000

"i love the sound of breaking glass" was actually nick lowe's david bowie
parody, and not bowie himself. mea culpa (and 88 to go).

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From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: d'oh!
Date: 27 Mar 2002 09:45:56 -0800

on 3/27/02 9:40 AM, Kurt Gottschalk at [e-mail] wrote:

> "i love the sound of breaking glass" was actually nick lowe's david bowie
> parody.
>
one of two.  when bowie put out the LOW album, lowe folled with an EP on
Stiff called BOWI.

skip h


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: nme <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: well well well
Date: 27 Mar 2002 09:45:37 -0800 (PST)

Less a definition than a litmus test:
music is sound and silence (sometimes silence only) that is intended as, or recieved as, music.

Too recursive?  Too Broad? Maybe, but it's a workable answer to "The Patton Qestion".

Scott Mccloud's definition of Art  is :"any human activity which doesnÆt grow out of either of our
species two basic instincts: survival and reproduction".  Adding "involving the making and
organizing of sound" to narrow it down, and you might have a working definition of music.

Stopping before I get too disjointed,
-nathan


--- [e-mail] wrote:
> i see that even going as far as to title my post "floodgates" was still a bit
> understated. thank you to all who answered me politely and my humble
> apologies to those who hate me now for ever bringing up such a volitile topic
> as John Cage.
>
> i've got a new one for ya - just so we can maybe move on...ok, i played
> patton's "adult themes for voice" in my music theory class today -
> specifically "the man in the lower lefthand corner of the picture."  the
> instructor loved it - he was already a mr. bungle fan. anyways a fellow
> student came up to me and says, "sure it's innovative or atleast new to me,
> but is it really music? i told him i felt it was. and continued on to say
> that to me music is simply any form of audio that can change your physical or
> psychological feelings at that very moment in time.
>
> did it take you to a place that you would not have gone had you been sitting
> here in silence?
>
> that's how i define music it's it's most general form.
>
> even the noisy or unpleasant stuff you guys/gals say you've bought and never
> play again past the first or second listen - it was new to you then and it
> had your attention for that moment in time. even if it's the sound of the fan
> in the computer next to you that reminds you of that old fridge that used to
> always hum down in your parents basement. it takes you mentally somewhere
> else - it changes your mood like it or not. that to me is music.
>
> ok perhaps i went on a tad much there, but my extremely broad question to
> this group is WHAT IS THE DEFINITION OF MUSIC TO YOU? and please don't bicker
> back and forth a thousand times if someone has a different opinion than
> yours. as i am certain not all agree with my pathetic attempt - i will not
> question your personal definition. i am just incredibly curious to hear what
> you all have to say.
>
> mike t
>
>
> -
>


=====
"Are you amplified to rock?
Are you hoping for a contact?"  -GbV

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: music defined (indeterminacy)
Date: 27 Mar 2002 09:45:51 -0800


On Wed, 27 Mar 2002 17:29:00 +0000  "Kurt Gottschalk" wrote:
>
> (to be read aloud, 60 seconds given to each paragraph, with the tv playing
> in the background)
>
> i pretty much agree with skip'n'zitt, music is a way of receiving sound
> waves. cage'd like that too. i'm not completely happy with it as a
> definition, but i can't imagine anything else covering what needs to be
> covered.

Since we have two words in the thesaurus, one for sound and one for music,
I don't see why people are so desperate to make them be the same. Are they
afraid that some organization might file a class action law suit on
behalf of sounds in order for the latter to raise to the lofty status of
music?

Anyway, I see it that way (as usual, my very reductionist way):

    sounds: any acoustic vibration (330 meters/s at regular temperature)
    music: sequence of sounds organized in some manner (usually with
        a purpose)

The first definition is static: just brute elements, has no socio-cultural
implication (yes, Joseph, I know that a squeaky door might not mean a lot
to somebody living in an igloo). The second is dynamic and is heavy loaded
with socio-cultural concepts (scales, harmony, fashion, etc).

I care about sounds if the music using them does something to me. Needless
to say that I don't automatically call music any assemblage of sounds.
Surely, I don't use as a premise that sounds are music.

    Patrice.

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From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: music defined (indeterminacy)
Date: 27 Mar 2002 09:52:14 -0800

on 3/27/02 9:45 AM, Patrice L. Roussel at [e-mail] wrote:

> I care about sounds if the music using them does something to me. Needless
> to say that I don't automatically call music any assemblage of sounds.
> Surely, I don't use as a premise that sounds are music.

Good point, but isn't the way any individual hears and processes those
sounds the bottom line?

skip h


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From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Efr=E9n=20del=20Valle?= <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fwd: Fred Frith mailing list
Date: 27 Mar 2002 18:51:12 +0100 (CET)

Hi,

> NP: "Strings" by Eugene Chadbourne

Arthur, how's this? I've been intrigued too long...

Thanks in advance.

EfrΘn del Valle

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From: "Kurt Gottschalk" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: d'oh!
Date: 27 Mar 2002 17:54:43 +0000

right, and the aforementioned song was on it.

kg


>From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
>To: Kurt Gottschalk <[e-mail]>,
><[e-mail]>
>Subject: Re: d'oh!
>Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 09:45:56 -0800
>
>on 3/27/02 9:40 AM, Kurt Gottschalk at [e-mail] wrote:
>
> > "i love the sound of breaking glass" was actually nick lowe's david
>bowie
> > parody.
> >
>one of two.  when bowie put out the LOW album, lowe folled with an EP on
>Stiff called BOWI.
>
>skip h
>


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Arthur Gadney" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Fred Frith mailing list
Date: 27 Mar 2002 17:57:57 +0000

> > NP: "Strings" by Eugene Chadbourne
>
>Arthur, how's this? I've been intrigued too long...

How about this: Final proof of Chadbourne's genius and what of the greatest
solo guitar albums of all time. Heck, what of my favorite albums in any way.

Seriously: This is the place to start for checking out Chadbourne's guitar
playing. It's amazing.

Other solo guitar must haves: "Guitar Solos" by Fred Frith. "Aida" by Derek
Baily (well, anything really, they are pretty similar), and uhm, what else?
'America" by John Fahey and the tzadik one by Tim Sparks, in a totally
differentend of the spectrum.

Which solo guitar album has the most noise???



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Fred Frith mailing list
Date: 27 Mar 2002 10:03:45 -0800

on 3/27/02 9:57 AM, Arthur Gadney at [e-mail] wrote:

>>> NP: "Strings" by Eugene Chadbourne
>>
>> Arthur, how's this? I've been intrigued too long...
>
> How about this: Final proof of Chadbourne's genius and what of the greatest
> solo guitar albums of all time. Heck, what of my favorite albums in any way.
>
> Seriously: This is the place to start for checking out Chadbourne's guitar
> playing. It's amazing.
>
> Other solo guitar must haves: "Guitar Solos" by Fred Frith. "Aida" by Derek
> Baily (well, anything really, they are pretty similar), and uhm, what else?
> 'America" by John Fahey and the tzadik one by Tim Sparks, in a totally
> differentend of the spectrum.

For me, the ultimate solo guitar music have album is the first Doc Watson on
Vanguard, or Rev Gary Davis' PURE RELIGION.

> Which solo guitar album has the most noise???

how bout duos -- Vern Reid and Bill Frisell, SMASH & SCATTERATION, about as
fine a set of interactive noisiness as there could ever be.

skip h


-



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From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Efr=E9n=20del=20Valle?= <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fwd: Re: music defined (indeterminacy)
Date: 27 Mar 2002 19:04:16 +0100 (CET)


> > I care about sounds if the music using them does
> something to me. Needless
> > to say that I don't automatically call music any
> assemblage of sounds.
> > Surely, I don't use as a premise that sounds are
> music.
>
> Good point, but isn't the way any individual hears
> and processes those
> sounds the bottom line?
>
> skip h

I totally agree with Skip. I think that the perception
of what's actually music and what's not (generally and
na∩vely defined as noise) is absolutely subjective.
Ask a poppy-head about his/her opinion on Zorn's
"Elegy", for instance, and the answer is "crap",
"noise", "gratuitous and self-indulgent shit" or
fill-in-with-your-best-dismissal.
I think we normally perceive sounds depending on how
our ears have been trained, so what's incoherent for
many, makes absolutely sense for others. If you read
the Larousse definition of music, you'll get something
like "A series of sounds PLEASANT to the ear" approx.
Pleasant for whom? I assume that leaves much of the
stuff discussed here out of the musical category.

Best,

EfrΘn del Valle
>
>
> -
>

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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: john cage - floodgates part II
Date: 27 Mar 2002 12:56:36 -0600

On Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 06:19:16AM -0800, aaron chua wrote:

> i'm a bit of a novice myself, but i found the cage
> piece on sonic youth's _goodbye_ to be highly
> enjoyable leading me to investigate the piece as
> recorded  by the arditti qtet on mode.

If you're referring to the Sonic Youth recording of Four^6, it's not
the same piece as "Four", which the Arditti recorded on Mode. (At
least I don't know of an Arditti Mode recording of "Four^6", and I
tend to keep up on these things.) Cage wrote several piece for four
players in the Number Series. The first (the string quarte) was simply
named "Four"; the rest have additional numbers (Four^2, Four^3, etc)
in order of composition.

I don't care for the Sonic Youth "Four^6" (though I like their "Six"
and muchof the rest of the set) and don't consider it a valid
recording of the piece. The score calls for four performers, and the
recording has eight (two of the six listed players recorded multiple
tracks), so that the piece is twice as dense as the score
specifies. Each of the sounds made by the performers is supposed to be
a steady-state unchanging sound, like a single tone or a drumroll. The
SY recording including bits of storytelling, IIRC, and other stuff
that doesn't apply. (OTOH, while I disagree with the repeating riffs
that William Winant does at points, I notice that he did the same when
performing the piece *with* Cage, as recorded on "John Cage at
Summerstage", which I think you'd enjoy.)



> o frm memory quartets i-viii on hathut and string
> qurtet in 4 parts ... ( i'll admit i don't listen to
> these v often;--->
> which leads me to ask; i find that i don't usually
> listen to pieces that i enjoy very often; spending my
> time either w/ newer pieces or perhaps ( at least this
> used to be the case) pieces i didn't _get_.
> does anyone else find this in their listening habits?

I listen to different pieces in different circumstances, listening to familiar pieces in situations where I can apply less concentration. I also find that I can get to the point where I know a recording well enough that i can play it in my head, and don't need to actually spin the CD. I tend to use opportunities for more concentrated listening for the newer or more challenging recordings.

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
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| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: was floodgates part II
Date: 27 Mar 2002 10:11:32 -0800

on 3/27/02 10:56 AM, Joseph Zitt at [e-mail] wrote:

> I tend to use opportunities for more concentrated listening for the newer or
> more challenging recordings.

Just what does "challenging" mean? I'm not being obtuse, either.  What's the
challenge offered?

skip h


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: music defined (indeterminacy)
Date: 27 Mar 2002 10:12:16 -0800


On Wed, 27 Mar 2002 09:52:14 -0800  skip Heller wrote:
>
> on 3/27/02 9:45 AM, Patrice L. Roussel at [e-mail] wrote:
>
> > I care about sounds if the music using them does something to me. Needless
> > to say that I don't automatically call music any assemblage of sounds.
> > Surely, I don't use as a premise that sounds are music.
>
> Good point, but isn't the way any individual hears and processes those
> sounds the bottom line?

I am not sure that I follow you. If the sounds are manipulated and organized
that's getting close to music.

My point was more against the philosophy that *ANY* sound is music. For me
there is a need for a conscious mind behind the sounds (preparing, organizing,
ordering them, etc) for the sounds to become music.

But since Cage favored so much random choices in music making, he is defini-
tely consistant (which makes you wonder why he even cared composing since
he worked so hard for the disappearance of the composer). I am personally only
interested in conscious choices leaving little chance to random events :-).
As a result, sounds are only sounds, waiting for some artist to give them
life. Without the latter, they are just acoustic phenomena. I don't call
the vision of the sky a picture, but the vision of the sky can be used to
make a great painting.

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: music defined (indeterminacy)
Date: 27 Mar 2002 10:19:27 -0800

on 3/27/02 10:12 AM, Patrice L. Roussel at [e-mail] wrote:

> I am not sure that I follow you. If the sounds are manipulated and organized
> that's getting close to music.

What if the sounds are not manipulated or organized but for whatever reason
point up to some elemental musical property? Windshield wipers that happen
randomly in and out of a certain rhythm with maybe a squeak on the end that
sounds like the end of a musical phrase, for instance.  There are lots of
things in nature that happen like this, but they're not organized or, in the
egular sense, manipulated.

skip h


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: john cage - floodgates part II
Date: 27 Mar 2002 10:18:56 -0800


On Wed, 27 Mar 2002 12:56:36 -0600  Joseph Zitt wrote:
>
> that doesn't apply. (OTOH, while I disagree with the repeating riffs
> that William Winant does at points, I notice that he did the same when
> performing the piece *with* Cage, as recorded on "John Cage at
> Summerstage", which I think you'd enjoy.)

There is a sweet statement from Joelle Leandre in one of the last THE WIRE
issues (her blindfold test). It is about Cage using melody.

Which means that there is only one bastion left: forcing Derek Bailey to
acknowledge that his dream was to be a second Tom Jones.

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Michael Berman" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: music defined (indeterminacy)
Date: 27 Mar 2002 13:53:26 -0500

but this was just the Dada response to that type of view- for Duchamp =
and I think influenced Cage.
the sky or a unirinal is art if you say it is, sign it or present it as =
such.  thus random sound, bird chirping, SILENCE with random audience =
noise is music if presented as such.

mb=20

----- Original Message -----=20
Cc: Patrice L. Roussel <[e-mail]>; Kurt Gottschalk =
<[e-mail]>; <[e-mail]>; =
<[e-mail]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2002 1:12 PM


>=20
> On Wed, 27 Mar 2002 09:52:14 -0800  skip Heller wrote:
> >
> > on 3/27/02 9:45 AM, Patrice L. Roussel at [e-mail] =
wrote:
> >=20
> > > I care about sounds if the music using them does something to me. =
Needless
> > > to say that I don't automatically call music any assemblage of =
sounds.
> > > Surely, I don't use as a premise that sounds are music.
> >=20
> > Good point, but isn't the way any individual hears and processes =
those
> > sounds the bottom line?
>=20
> I am not sure that I follow you. If the sounds are manipulated and =
organized
> that's getting close to music.=20
>=20
> My point was more against the philosophy that *ANY* sound is music. =
For me
> there is a need for a conscious mind behind the sounds (preparing, =
organizing,
> ordering them, etc) for the sounds to become music.
>=20
> But since Cage favored so much random choices in music making, he is =
defini-
> tely consistant (which makes you wonder why he even cared composing =
since
> he worked so hard for the disappearance of the composer). I am =
personally only
> interested in conscious choices leaving little chance to random events =
:-).
> As a result, sounds are only sounds, waiting for some artist to give =
them
> life. Without the latter, they are just acoustic phenomena. I don't =
call
> the vision of the sky a picture, but the vision of the sky can be used =
to=20
> make a great painting.
>=20
> Patrice.
>=20
> -
>=20
>=20


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: music defined (indeterminacy)
Date: 27 Mar 2002 10:29:13 -0800

on 3/27/02 10:53 AM, Michael Berman at [e-mail] wrote:

> but this was just the Dada response to that type of view- for Duchamp and I
> think influenced Cage.
> the sky or a unirinal is art if you say it is, sign it or present it as such.
> thus random sound, bird chirping, SILENCE with random audience noise is music
> if presented as such.
>
> mb
>
My issue with that is that it puts the weight on the presentation rather
than on the person encountering the thing itself, so it's "art" or "music"
before it's functioned.  I've always felt the decisions of art are best left
to the audience (no matter its size) rather than to the people who make the
stuff.

sh


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: music defined (indeterminacy)
Date: 27 Mar 2002 10:27:59 -0800


On Wed, 27 Mar 2002 10:19:27 -0800  skip Heller wrote:
>
> What if the sounds are not manipulated or organized but for whatever reason
> point up to some elemental musical property? Windshield wipers that happen
> randomly in and out of a certain rhythm with maybe a squeak on the end that
> sounds like the end of a musical phrase, for instance.  There are lots of
> things in nature that happen like this, but they're not organized or, in the
> egular sense, manipulated.

Like I said, we have two words (sound and music) to qualify two different
things.

I love listening to the sound of water running down a river, but I do not
call that music. It is a pleasant sound.

If the sound of squeaky wipers is used in a musical context, that's another
story. But by themselves, they are just sounds, usually the clue that you
are in your car waiting for the rain to stop.

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Michael Berman" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: music defined (indeterminacy)
Date: 27 Mar 2002 14:06:38 -0500

well then any person encountering random sounds can determine its music =
if they hear it as such, which just made the 'audience' the 'artist'.   =
no?

(gotta leave now for a few days, unfortunatly cant respond anymore to =
the thread, so trash me at will)





> My issue with that is that it puts the weight on the presentation =
rather
> than on the person encountering the thing itself, so it's "art" or =
"music"
> before it's functioned.  I've always felt the decisions of art are =
best left
> to the audience (no matter its size) rather than to the people who =
make the
> stuff.
>=20
> sh
>=20
> > but this was just the Dada response to that type of view- for =
Duchamp and I
> > think influenced Cage.
> > the sky or a unirinal is art if you say it is, sign it or present it =
as such.
> > thus random sound, bird chirping, SILENCE with random audience noise =
is music
> > if presented as such.
> >=20
> > mb=20
> >=20
>=20


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: music defined (indeterminacy)
Date: 27 Mar 2002 10:43:38 -0800

on 3/27/02 10:27 AM, Patrice L. Roussel at [e-mail] wrote:

> Like I said, we have two words (sound and music) to qualify two different
> things.
>
> I love listening to the sound of water running down a river, but I do not
> call that music. It is a pleasant sound.
>
> If the sound of squeaky wipers is used in a musical context, that's another
> story. But by themselves, they are just sounds, usually the clue that you
> are in your car waiting for the rain to stop.
>

I'll give you a convoluted ntion of why I think this.

When I was eight or nine, I used to take piano lessons, and we would drive
to the lessons in my mother's 1963 Thunderbird.  If you know Philadelphia,
then you know that spring has a patch of full-tilt downpours.

If you know 1963 T-Birds, you're likely aware that the track that houses the
windshield wiper blades is paper thin.  Somehow, the passenger side blade
got slightly bent one way, the driver side, slightly another.

The result was that the left-right motion of the wipers was given to
non-regularity.  But the left wiper (which seemed to move first) would have
a low-end thump (like a kickdrum), then, as the wipers dragged across the
glass, a few bumpy sounds, ending with the right blade making a high-pitched
moaning sound (as squeeges make).  The length of the "phrase" would vary,
depending on how hard it was raining or if we hit a puddle, but the phrases
were all tracable and had accents, would occur in a random pattern, but
there was certainly a stock of repeating patterns and it got to a point
where I could recognize most of them.  I could notate them all (I heard 'em
so many times).

Now, I sensed these things as musical patterns.  They weren't designed as
music by any stretch of the imagination.  But I processed them as music.
And, if you heard my attempts at the piano, you would agree that these
patterns were infinitely more musical than the Beethoven that followed.

skip h


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: music defined (indeterminacy)
Date: 27 Mar 2002 10:45:32 -0800

on 3/27/02 11:06 AM, Michael Berman at [e-mail] wrote:

> well then any person encountering random sounds can determine its music if
> they hear it as such, which just made the 'audience' the 'artist'.   no?

Ideally, yes -- or at least an equal participant in the process.  No
trashing required.

(This, BTW, was the situation Glenn Gould spoke of as ideal)

skip h


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: music defined (indeterminacy)
Date: 27 Mar 2002 10:42:49 -0800


On Wed, 27 Mar 2002 13:53:26 -0500  "Michael Berman" wrote:
>
> but this was just the Dada response to that type of view- for Duchamp and I
> think influenced Cage. the sky or a unirinal is art if you say it is, sign
> it or present it as such.  thus random sound, bird chirping, SILENCE with
> random audience noise is music if presented as such.

And we all know how serious Dada was, right? At least it has allowed people
to build a career on its spirit. Duchamp might have enjoyed that :-).

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: music defined (indeterminacy)
Date: 27 Mar 2002 10:48:06 -0800

von 3/27/02 10:27 AM, Patrice L. Roussel at [e-mail] wrote:

> Like I said, we have two words (sound and music) to qualify two different
> things.
>
> I love listening to the sound of water running down a river, but I do not
> call that music. It is a pleasant sound.
>
> If the sound of squeaky wipers is used in a musical context, that's another
> story. But by themselves, they are just sounds, usually the clue that you
> are in your car waiting for the rain to stop.
>

I'll give you a convoluted ntion of why I think this.

When I was eight or nine, I used to take piano lessons, and we would drive
to the lessons in my mother's 1963 Thunderbird.  If you know Philadelphia,
then you know that spring has a patch of full-tilt downpours.

If you know 1963 T-Birds, you're likely aware that the track that houses the
windshield wiper blades is paper thin.  Somehow, the passenger side blade
got slightly bent one way, the driver side, slightly another.

The result was that the left-right motion of the wipers was given to
non-regularity.  But the left wiper (which seemed to move first) would have
a low-end thump (like a kickdrum), then, as the wipers dragged across the
glass, a few bumpy sounds, ending with the right blade making a high-pitched
moaning sound (as squeeges make).  The length of the "phrase" would vary,
depending on how hard it was raining or if we hit a puddle, but the phrases
were all tracable and had accents, would occur in a random pattern, but
there was certainly a stock of repeating patterns and it got to a point
where I could recognize most of them.  I could notate them all (I heard 'em
so many times).

Now, I sensed these things as musical patterns.  They weren't designed as
music by any stretch of the imagination.  But I processed them as music.
And, if you heard my attempts at the piano, you would agree that these
patterns were infinitely more musical than the Beethoven that followed.

skip h


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: was floodgates part II
Date: 27 Mar 2002 13:37:50 -0600

On Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 10:11:32AM -0800, skip Heller wrote:
> on 3/27/02 10:56 AM, Joseph Zitt at [e-mail] wrote:
>
> > I tend to use opportunities for more concentrated listening for the newer or
> > more challenging recordings.
>
> Just what does "challenging" mean? I'm not being obtuse, either.  What's the
> challenge offered?

It's those where I get the feeling that there's something happening that
I'm not getting, or that I want to explore more deeply (often as
a way of learning to improve my own work).

The former case is often when I am following the recommendation of
someone whose tastes I respect. If, for example, you or Steve Smith
would recommend something highly and, on first listen, I couldn't hear
it in the music, I would often make a point to listen again with
greater concentration to hear more clearly what was going on. The
latter would be, for example, a closer listening to a dense work to
hear what the parts were doing (I spent some itme yesterday dissecting
an Ornette Coleman recording to hear how the pieces fit together,
which was revealing -- there was a lot more interconnection that I had
heard at first) or, in another case, listening to a sparer piece, such
as a Meredith Monk solo, to hear how it was put together.

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Arthur Gadney" <[e-mail]>
Subject: new ZU cd???
Date: 27 Mar 2002 18:49:08 +0000

Hey guys,

has anybody heard the new ZU cd "IGNEA" which was released recently???

As you might recall Zorn was very tripped out by their debut CD "Bromio" a
few years ago and called it the coolest new thing around. I thought it was
great, but think they might be capable of more...!!

Cheers,

NP: Johnny cahs early stuff
NR: http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-creationscience.htm




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Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Kurt Gottschalk" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: music defined (indeterminacy)
Date: 27 Mar 2002 18:52:21 +0000

for what it's worth, the role of randomness is often overplayed within
cage's music. it is central, but it's not the sole factor. he said that his
role is deciding what questions to ask, and that the answers were already
computed on stacks of paper on his desk.

those answers are the radomly generated patterns, set up through i ching,
coin toss, inconsistent surfaces on sheets of paper, etc.

but cage is not the litmus test, nor the lowest common denominator, for what
is or isn't music. and this conversation is (no offense) proving my initial
point. arguing about the definition is semantics; arguing about good or bad
is the boogie stop shuffle. someone could say 'those crickets are very
musical,' no? so would you say that something could be musical without being
music? yes, you could, and i can see how the argument would go, but is that
the most interesting thing there is to talk about about music?

to rely again on the whipping post, some of cage's stuff is really
beautiful. some of it is annoying. although i wouldn't usually use such
terms, for purposes here, i would defend some of it as 'good' and call some
'bad.' what makes it good or bad (to me)? again, that's where lie the
import.

"sounding constructed" is not necessary to me, but then i like alot of
improv (something cage deplored). "sounding communicative" internally/or
externally (that is, among players or toward myself) is more important, but
still not necessary. and neither of those terms are easily defined either.

good music is sounds what sound good to me when i hears 'em.

kg

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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Mark Saleski <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: music defined (indeterminacy)
Date: 27 Mar 2002 14:07:14 -0500


i've always thought that music is an ears-of-the-beholder sort of thing.
this is closer to what skip is getting at.

didn't zappa say something like that? if you perceive something as
music, then that's what it is.

the problem with requiring that a conscious mind be behind the
organization of sounds is that it requires the listener to "get it". for
me, i may indeed "get" something...it just might not be what the
composer had in mind.

Patrice:


>I am not sure that I follow you. If the sounds are manipulated and organized
>that's getting close to music.

>My point was more against the philosophy that *ANY* sound is music. For me
>there is a need for a conscious mind behind the sounds (preparing, organizing,
>ordering them, etc) for the sounds to become music.


skip:

>Now, I sensed these things as musical patterns.  They weren't designed as
>music by any stretch of the imagination.  But I processed them as music.
>And, if you heard my attempts at the piano, you would agree that these
>patterns were infinitely more musical than the Beethoven that followed.


--
Mark Saleski - [e-mail] | http://www.foliage.com/~marks
"Music is spiritual. The music business is not." - Van Morrison



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: john cage - floodgates part II
Date: 27 Mar 2002 13:51:44 -0600

On Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 10:18:56AM -0800, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:
>
> On Wed, 27 Mar 2002 12:56:36 -0600  Joseph Zitt wrote:
> >
> > that doesn't apply. (OTOH, while I disagree with the repeating riffs
> > that William Winant does at points, I notice that he did the same when
> > performing the piece *with* Cage, as recorded on "John Cage at
> > Summerstage", which I think you'd enjoy.)
>
> There is a sweet statement from Joelle Leandre in one of the last THE WIRE
> issues (her blindfold test). It is about Cage using melody.

I haven't seen it -- shops out here don't tend to carry The Wire, so I
grab several months at once on infrequent trips to NYC, etc. What did
she say?

> Which means that there is only one bastion left: forcing Derek Bailey to
> acknowledge that his dream was to be a second Tom Jones.

In a world where John Zorn produces an album of Burt Bacharach covers,
anything is possible.

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Arthur Gadney" <[e-mail]>
Subject: solo guitar
Date: 27 Mar 2002 19:03:11 +0000

>For me, the ultimate solo guitar music have album is the first Doc Watson
>on
>Vanguard, or Rev Gary Davis' PURE RELIGION.

can you share a bit moer info or descriptions about this? I don't have the
slightst idea...

Cherrs,


NP: Still old Johnny Cash stuff. Too bad he sucks now.
NR: http://www.edge.org



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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Arthur Gadney" <[e-mail]>
Subject: OT:
Date: 27 Mar 2002 19:04:52 +0000

Hi!!

Anybody know anything about the band Hand Made Techno with Will Calhoun and
and occational Bill laswell collaborator Jaron Lanier?? They play around New
York City....

Thanks!!!

_________________________________________________________________
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http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: john cage - floodgates part II
Date: 27 Mar 2002 11:06:29 -0800


On Wed, 27 Mar 2002 13:51:44 -0600  Joseph Zitt wrote:
>
> > There is a sweet statement from Joelle Leandre in one of the last THE WIRE
> > issues (her blindfold test). It is about Cage using melody.
>
> I haven't seen it -- shops out here don't tend to carry The Wire, so I
> grab several months at once on infrequent trips to NYC, etc. What did
> she say?

Cage had written something quite melodic and Joelle expressed some
amused surprise. Cage answered with his famous smile.

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: music defined (indeterminacy)
Date: 27 Mar 2002 11:10:10 -0800

on 3/27/02 11:07 AM, Mark Saleski at [e-mail] wrote:

> didn't zappa say something like that? if you perceive something as
> music, then that's what it is.
Zappa said "If it can be concived as music, it can be executed as music."

> the problem with requiring that a conscious mind be behind the
> organization of sounds is that it requires the listener to "get it". for
> me, i may indeed "get" something...it just might not be what the
> composer had in mind.

The composer is only the first step in the process, tho.  He may drive the
cab, but -- my opinion and only that -- the passengers are the ones who
decide whether or not they made it to an appropriate destination.

skip h


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: well well well
Date: 27 Mar 2002 14:06:44 -0600

On Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 11:08:40AM -0600, William Crump wrote:

> Music = the organization of sounds and silences.

A good one, and it leaves open the issues of whether the organization
is done by the composer or (as in the case of listening to traffic and
rivers as music) the listener.

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: William Crump <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: music defined (indeterminacy)
Date: 27 Mar 2002 13:16:31 -0600

Kurt Gottschalk wrote:

>   someone could say 'those crickets are very musical,' no? so would
> you say that something could be musical without being music? yes, you
> could, and i can see how the argument would go,

I think this answers Skip's question about the windshield wipers very
well. The wiper sounds were very musical, AS THOUGH THEY HAD BEEN
ORGANIZED AS MUSIC. Back to the definition of music I learned, I think
that the concept of "organization" of sound is very loose. If Skip,
having recognized the wiper sounds as musical, wanted to convey that
musicality to a friend, said, "Hey, listen to this cool rhythm track,"
and turned on the wipers, these sounds would change from being MUSICAL
to being MUSIC. The act of turning on the wipers is the act of
"organization of sounds and silences." I'm almost embarrassed to write
something so fundamentally obvious, except my wife and I argue
(pleasantly) about it all the time.

> but is that the most interesting thing there is to talk about about music?

Sure, sometimes. But sometimes it's that bass part, on that song, you
know the one -- on that album from 1970-something, right? -- that makes
me want to get all sweaty and nasty, but we won't go there.

William Crump




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: solo guitar
Date: 27 Mar 2002 11:21:15 -0800

on 3/27/02 11:03 AM, Arthur Gadney at [e-mail] wrote:

>> For me, the ultimate solo guitar music have album is the first Doc Watson
>> on
>> Vanguard, or Rev Gary Davis' PURE RELIGION.
>
> can you share a bit moer info or descriptions about this? I don't have the
> slightst idea...
>
> Cherrs,
>

Doc Watson may be the ultimate guitar god.  He's fr North Carolina, and he
definitely was indoctrinated into the fiddle tune rep. that we associate
with that region. His flatpicking renditions of that stuff "Under The Double
Eagle" etc remain definitive, and are about as high and pure an expression
of the art of guitar as we have.  He was the one that legitimized the guitar
as a solong instrument in bluegrass, and guys like Clarence White and Norman
Blake rightfully idolize him.  He's up there with Earl Scruggs and Benny
Martin as an ultimate in that kind of improvising.

His fingerpicking is no less dazzling.  "Doc's Guitar" took the Merle Travis
style took a whole next plane, and "Deep River Blues" still ranks as
possibly the definitive fingerpicking performance on record.

He was discovered in the early sixties by the folkies who thought they had
found a pure, unaffected folk genius.  They were 2/3 right.  he'd been
playing electric guitar in Top 40 country bands thru the fifties.

I didn't mention he's blind since birth.  But -- if this tells you anything
about the his tendancy towards ingenuity -- he had the first house with
electricity in his county.  He did the wiring himself.

Gary Davis (also blind) was a huge influence on Fahey and just about any
other fingerpicker worth naming (Bromberg leaps to mind).  he had a kind of
bastard ragtime style that defies description, and a rhythmic drive that
still floors me (twenty-five years after I first heard him).  He also had a
voice that would scare Ray Charles.  "Samson & Delilah" and "You Gotta Move"
are pretty much definitive.

skip h


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Arthur Gadney" <[e-mail]>
Subject: FRED FRITH comments on NAKED CITY LIVE CD
Date: 27 Mar 2002 19:18:06 +0000

I guess this goes without explanation.....

Arthur Gadney wrote:

>Hello Fred.
>
>Perhaps you won't mind me asking you a question then. I'm just wondering
>about the upcomming Naked City live CD on Tzadik. We've been through the
>possible release of more live Henry Cow stuff on the mailing list several
>times and I'm wondering if the same thing applies here. Meaning do you all
>get a say about what you want released or does Zorn decide? I remember you
>were not happy about the sound quality on the Henry Cow stuff, did you have
>any similar say on the Naked City releases?
>
>If you happen to have the knowledge, perhaps you could tell if what the
>future plans are? Is this going to be a series of releases, like the Masada
>ones? Might we get a "live" version of the long rumored "Radio Part 2"??
>
>If you don't mind, I will forward your answer to the John Zorn mailing list
>where people are dying for more info :-)
>
>Cheers and thanks!

Reply-To: [e-mail]

Different situation. Naked City was John's band, not a collective. So I
don't
have a say, and don't ask for one!  No idea what's in the pipeline, but I
look
forward to it!
Fred


_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Mark Saleski <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: solo guitar
Date: 27 Mar 2002 14:42:34 -0500


skip,

any recommendations for recordings? there's a ton of gary davis stuff out there.


>Gary Davis (also blind) was a huge influence on Fahey and just about any
>other fingerpicker worth naming (Bromberg leaps to mind).  he had a kind of
>bastard ragtime style that defies description, and a rhythmic drive that
>still floors me (twenty-five years after I first heard him).  He also had a
>voice that would scare Ray Charles.  "Samson & Delilah" and "You Gotta Move"
>are pretty much definitive.

--
Mark Saleski - [e-mail] | http://www.foliage.com/~marks
"Music is spiritual. The music business is not." - Van Morrison



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Ricardo=20Campillo?= <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: What is music?
Date: 27 Mar 2002 20:43:06 +0100 (CET)


> > ok perhaps i went on a tad much there, but my
> extremely broad question to
> > this group is WHAT IS THE DEFINITION OF MUSIC TO
> YOU?
>
>------------------------------------------------
I think that is something that can stimulate you
through your ears.

  Regards.R.

_______________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Messenger
Comunicaci≤n instantßnea gratis con tu gente.
http://messenger.yahoo.es

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: solo guitar
Date: 27 Mar 2002 11:57:02 -0800

on 3/27/02 11:42 AM, Mark Saleski at [e-mail] wrote:

>
> skip,
>
> any recommendations for recordings? there's a ton of gary davis stuff out
> there.
>
>
>> Gary Davis (also blind) was a huge influence on Fahey and just about any
>> other fingerpicker worth naming (Bromberg leaps to mind).  he had a kind of
>> bastard ragtime style that defies description, and a rhythmic drive that
>> still floors me (twenty-five years after I first heard him).  He also had a
>> voice that would scare Ray Charles.  "Samson & Delilah" and "You Gotta Move"
>> are pretty much definitive.

The one on Prestige/OBC with "Samson & Delilah" (can't remember the name.
Have always had it as half a two-fer LP).

skip h


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Arthur Gadney" <[e-mail]>
Subject: New Frisell (eh, record that is!)
Date: 27 Mar 2002 19:54:47 +0000

Soon to be released:

The Willies.

This is Bill's characteristically inimitable and modern take on bluegrass
and country blues with Danny Barnes (from the Bad Livers) on banjo and
guitar and bassist Keith Lowe (known for his work in Fiona Apple's and David
Sylvian's bands and with Wayne Horvitz' "Zony Mash"). Recorded in Seattle
with engineer Tucker Martine, the CD features such traditional songs as
"Cluck Old Hen", "John Hardy", "Single Girl", "Sugar Baby", "Blackberry
Blossom", "Sitting on Top of the World", "Goodnight Irene" and "Cold, Cold
Heart" and, of course, original compositions by Frisell. The CD is scheduled
for release on Nonesuch in June, 2002.


_________________________________________________________________
Join the worldÆs largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: What is music?
Date: 27 Mar 2002 14:56:43 EST

Anything you can call music to your ears is music, whether it's the sound of
someone's voice, a Zorn duck call solo, a Mozart piano concerto, a dog's
bark, the buzz of an oil drill, or the Sex Pistols whining that they have no
feelings.  Ear of the beholder.

Tom

______________________________________________________________________
Phil Spector: "I've been listening to a lot of Andrew Lloyd Webber lately,
and enjoying it. Someday I hope to set his stuff to music."

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: What is music?
Date: 27 Mar 2002 11:58:46 -0800


On Wed, 27 Mar 2002 20:43:06 +0100 (CET)  =?iso-8859-1?q?Ricardo=20Campillo?= wrote:
>
>
> > > ok perhaps i went on a tad much there, but my
> > extremely broad question to
> > > this group is WHAT IS THE DEFINITION OF MUSIC TO
> > YOU?
> >
> >------------------------------------------------
> I think that is something that can stimulate you
> through your ears.

Hum... That's opening a wide range of possibilities. I can see many
situations that are stimulating through my ears are and not at
all music :-).

Looking for starting a new business: personalized thesaurus (to make
everybody happy and leave nobody behind).

Chair: something that some people claim can be used to sit on.

Sky: piece of art made by the Creator.

Music: sounds qualified as improper for usage in Musique Concrete.

Color: visual illusion due to the limited spectral resolution of
human beings.

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: New Frisell (eh, record that is!)
Date: 27 Mar 2002 12:06:44 -0800


On Wed, 27 Mar 2002 19:54:47 +0000  "Arthur Gadney" wrote:
>
> Soon to be released:
>
> The Willies.
>
> This is Bill's characteristically inimitable and modern take on bluegrass
> and country blues with Danny Barnes (from the Bad Livers) on banjo and

Darn! The new plague in music: avant-barnyard.

Waiting eagerly for Bill's project of reviving Django Reinhard.

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jim Flannery <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: What is music?
Date: 27 Mar 2002 12:23:08 -0800

"Patrice L. Roussel" wrote:
>=20
> Looking for starting a new business: personalized thesaurus (to make
> everybody happy and leave nobody behind).

So. What's the difference in process between a baked ham and a roast
pork?

Amazingly enough, many of us use the language without consulting
reference books at all.

--=20
-
Jim Flannery                                           =20
[e-mail]

          "When I say =91no=92 I=92m always right and when I say =91yes=92=
=20
           I=92m almost always wrong."
                                            -- Dwight Macdonald

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: What is music?
Date: 27 Mar 2002 12:23:27 -0800


On Wed, 27 Mar 2002 12:23:08 -0800  Jim Flannery wrote:
>
> "Patrice L. Roussel" wrote:
> >
> > Looking for starting a new business: personalized thesaurus (to make
> > everybody happy and leave nobody behind).
>
> So. What's the difference in process between a baked ham and a roast
> pork?
>
> Amazingly enough, many of us use the language without consulting
> reference books at all.

I guess your mastery of the language allows you that. I am not in your
situation (I check thesaurus quite often, both spelling and meaning).
But we (French) also have an Academy to control what is accepted and
what is not :-).

You should try to read A REBOURS by Joris Karl Huysmans. If you can
read two pages of it without a thesaurus handy, congratulations!

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: New Frisell (eh, record that is!)
Date: 27 Mar 2002 12:27:44 -0800

on 3/27/02 12:06 PM, Patrice L. Roussel at [e-mail] wrote:

>
> On Wed, 27 Mar 2002 19:54:47 +0000  "Arthur Gadney" wrote:

>> This is Bill's characteristically inimitable and modern take on bluegrass
>> and country blues with Danny Barnes (from the Bad Livers) on banjo and
>
> Darn! The new plague in music: avant-barnyard.
>

I smell anti-rural white bigotry somehow.  I guess John Waters is right --
the only politically correct racial epithet is "white trash".

Also, Tony Rice has been dealing the materials in question for years, usinga
jazz/grass approach, so it might not be as avant as all that.

skip h


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Kurt Gottschalk" <[e-mail]>
Subject: wiper music
Date: 27 Mar 2002 20:25:53 +0000

If Skip,
having recognized the wiper sounds as musical, wanted to convey that
musicality to a friend, said, "Hey, listen to this cool rhythm track,"
and turned on the wipers, these sounds would change from being MUSICAL
to being MUSIC. The act of turning on the wipers is the act of
"organization of sounds and silences."

>>>

if skip's mom turns on the wipers on another trip to piano lesson, with skip
enjoying the rhythm but not saying anything to his mother, who is anxious
about driving in the rain and running late, it is not music.

if skip's mom stops to run into the drugstore, and little skip, sitting by
himself in the car, turns the ignition back on to listen to the wipers, it
is music.

if skip tapes the wipers and plays the tape for his friend, it is music.

if skip leaves the tape at his friend's house and his friend's mom finds the
tape and says 'who the fuck tapes windshield wipers,' it is not music.

if skip teaches a drummer to simulate the wiper rhythm he remembers from his
childhood and builds a composition around it, it is music. but there's no
guarantee it will be good music.

(although i'm sure it would be, skip)

kurt

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: William Crump <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: What is music?
Date: 27 Mar 2002 14:36:06 -0600

Not only do I disagree with this, I consider it a copout. This is the
opinion my wife insists on mistakenly ascribing to me when we have our
little tete-a-tetes about the nature of art. (It's totally off the
subject, but you should hear us mix it up about Norman Rockwell vs.
Robert Crumb!) See my earlier post about the differentiation between
sounds that are musical and sounds that are music.

William Crump

[e-mail] wrote:

>Anything you can call music to your ears is music, whether it's the sound of
>someone's voice, a Zorn duck call solo, a Mozart piano concerto, a dog's
>bark, the buzz of an oil drill, or the Sex Pistols whining that they have no
>feelings.  Ear of the beholder.
>


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: William Crump <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: wiper music
Date: 27 Mar 2002 14:38:47 -0600

I agree on all counts.    -- Wm.C

Kurt Gottschalk wrote:

> if skip's mom turns on the wipers on another trip to piano lesson,
> with skip enjoying the rhythm but not saying anything to his mother,
> who is anxious about driving in the rain and running late, it is not
> music.
>
> if skip's mom stops to run into the drugstore, and little skip,
> sitting by himself in the car, turns the ignition back on to listen to
> the wipers, it is music.
>
> if skip tapes the wipers and plays the tape for his friend, it is music.
>
> if skip leaves the tape at his friend's house and his friend's mom
> finds the tape and says 'who the fuck tapes windshield wipers,' it is
> not music.
>
> if skip teaches a drummer to simulate the wiper rhythm he remembers
> from his childhood and builds a composition around it, it is music.
> but there's no guarantee it will be good music.
>
> (although i'm sure it would be, skip)




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: William Crump <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: New Frisell (eh, record that is!)
Date: 27 Mar 2002 14:44:26 -0600

skip Heller wrote:

>I smell anti-rural white bigotry somehow.  I guess John Waters is right --
>the only politically correct racial epithet is "white trash".
>
It's the only one I feel comfortable using, but I'm writing from
northeast Mississippi. I wonder if that means there's something to the
idea that only a black person could ever have the right to use the N-word.

Wm. C


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: wiper music
Date: 27 Mar 2002 12:48:01 -0800

on 3/27/02 12:25 PM, Kurt Gottschalk at [e-mail] wrote:

> If Skip,
> having recognized the wiper sounds as musical, wanted to convey that
> musicality to a friend, said, "Hey, listen to this cool rhythm track,"
> and turned on the wipers, these sounds would change from being MUSICAL
> to being MUSIC. The act of turning on the wipers is the act of
> "organization of sounds and silences."
>
>>>>
>
> if skip's mom turns on the wipers on another trip to piano lesson, with skip
> enjoying the rhythm but not saying anything to his mother, who is anxious
> about driving in the rain and running late, it is not music.
>
> if skip's mom stops to run into the drugstore, and little skip, sitting by
> himself in the car, turns the ignition back on to listen to the wipers, it
> is music.
>
> if skip tapes the wipers and plays the tape for his friend, it is music.
>
> if skip leaves the tape at his friend's house and his friend's mom finds the
> tape and says 'who the fuck tapes windshield wipers,' it is not music.
>
> if skip teaches a drummer to simulate the wiper rhythm he remembers from his
> childhood and builds a composition around it, it is music. but there's no
> guarantee it will be good music.
>
> (although i'm sure it would be, skip)
>
> kurt
>
That's the point I was trying to make and probably didn't make as well as
I'd hoped.  The bottom line comes down to the inner-ear reflexes of some
schmuck hearing some windshield wipers.  Even tho the noise is the same
noise in each circumstance (until such time as I notate it and hand it to a
drummer).  Although in the first scenario you outline, that my exposure to
that noise was accidental does not mean it wasn't music to my ears.

sh



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Kurt Gottschalk" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: wiper music
Date: 27 Mar 2002 20:51:04 +0000

Although in the first scenario you outline, that my exposure to
>that noise was accidental does not mean it wasn't music to my ears.

EXACTLY. my labelling of music and not-music was facetious, and an extension
of the previous argument i had copied. they're all music. i mean, why the
hell not? are they good music? well, the moms don't seem to think so,
anyway.

my mom loves roger miller and hates tom waits. my dad surprised me by really
enjoying a derek bailey concert, but i'm pretty sure is tone deaf.

kurt

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: New Frisell (eh, record that is!)
Date: 27 Mar 2002 12:51:25 -0800


On Wed, 27 Mar 2002 12:27:44 -0800  skip Heller wrote:
>
> on 3/27/02 12:06 PM, Patrice L. Roussel at [e-mail] wrote:
>
> >
> > On Wed, 27 Mar 2002 19:54:47 +0000  "Arthur Gadney" wrote:
>
> >> This is Bill's characteristically inimitable and modern take on bluegrass
> >> and country blues with Danny Barnes (from the Bad Livers) on banjo and
> >
> > Darn! The new plague in music: avant-barnyard.
> >
>
> I smell anti-rural white bigotry somehow.  I guess John Waters is right --
> the only politically correct racial epithet is "white trash".

I guess the joke did not go through (avant-garage <-> avant-barnyard).

Anyway, the most depressing recent trend in rock in Portland (OR) has been,
IMHO, rock bands that became born again bluegrass bands.

When is the last time that Frisell put some challenging or exciting music?
He is slowly making himself as a specialist of warmed up food. One thing
is sure, he is unlikely to be laid of from Nonesuch.

    Patrice.

PS: "White trash" is an American specialty, right?

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "s~Z" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: music defined (indeterminacy)
Date: 27 Mar 2002 12:53:06 -0800

>>>The composer is only the first step in the process, tho.  He
may drive the
cab, but -- my opinion and only that -- the passengers are the
ones who
decide whether or not they made it to an appropriate
destination.<<<

Wow. Composing is to cabdriver as listener is to passenger.
I hold the art of composing in a bit higher regard than that.
This analogy ignores the incredible combination of technique
and inspiration required to create art. And to put the 'measure'
of artistic merit in the hands of the audience. That pretty much
demolishes most of the art this list holds dear. I am so thankful
that Vinny Golia, to use an example relevant to us here in the LA
area,
keeps on composing and playing even though a very tiny portion of
Southern California listeners are hailing his cab. If LA listeners
are
the judge and jury of his art, he'd be better off driving a cab.




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: New Frisell (eh, record that is!)
Date: 27 Mar 2002 12:58:18 -0800

on 3/27/02 12:51 PM, Patrice L. Roussel at [e-mail] wrote:

> When is the last time that Frisell put some challenging or exciting music?
> He is slowly making himself as a specialist of warmed up food. One thing
> is sure, he is unlikely to be laid of from Nonesuch.
>
> Patrice.
>
> PS: "White trash" is an American specialty, right?
>
> -
I think Frisell lost something vital when Joey Baron left his group.

"White trash" is definitely the kind of bigot's term in which Americans
specialize.

skip h


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: wiper music
Date: 27 Mar 2002 13:02:02 -0800

on 3/27/02 12:51 PM, Kurt Gottschalk at [e-mail] wrote:

> Although in the first scenario you outline, that my exposure to
>> that noise was accidental does not mean it wasn't music to my ears.
>
> EXACTLY. my labelling of music and not-music was facetious, and an extension
> of the previous argument i had copied. they're all music. i mean, why the
> hell not? are they good music? well, the moms don't seem to think so,
> anyway.
>
> my mom loves roger miller and hates tom waits. my dad surprised me by really
> enjoying a derek bailey concert, but i'm pretty sure is tone deaf.
>
> kurt

My mom thought Neil Diamond was the poster boy for good music.  I owned all
the Roger Miller records in the house myself.

But as for "are they all music?" (the wiper variations, I mean), I'm not so
sure.  If you don't even remotely percieve that it could be music, how do
you know it's bad music?

sh


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: music defined (indeterminacy)
Date: 27 Mar 2002 15:57:31 -0600

On Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 05:29:00PM +0000, Kurt Gottschalk wrote:

> "i love the sound of breaking glass" --david bowie

I believe that's Nick Lowe (though the song was, as i understand, a
response to Bowie's "Baby / I've been / breaking glass / in your room
again / listen".

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: music defined (indeterminacy)
Date: 27 Mar 2002 15:59:40 -0600

On Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 09:45:51AM -0800, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:

> Since we have two words in the thesaurus, one for sound and one for music,
> I don't see why people are so desperate to make them be the same. Are they
> afraid that some organization might file a class action law suit on
> behalf of sounds in order for the latter to raise to the lofty status of
> music?

Has anyone made that equation?  Not that I can recall.

> I care about sounds if the music using them does something to me. Needless
> to say that I don't automatically call music any assemblage of sounds.
> Surely, I don't use as a premise that sounds are music.

Not until someone listens to them as such.

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: music defined (indeterminacy)
Date: 27 Mar 2002 13:20:44 -0800

on 3/27/02 12:53 PM, s~Z at [e-mail] wrote:

>>>> The composer is only the first step in the process, tho.  He
> may drive the
> cab, but -- my opinion and only that -- the passengers are the
> ones who
> decide whether or not they made it to an appropriate
> destination.<<<
>
> Wow. Composing is to cabdriver as listener is to passenger.
> I hold the art of composing in a bit higher regard than that.
> This analogy ignores the incredible combination of technique
> and inspiration required to create art. And to put the 'measure'
> of artistic merit in the hands of the audience. That pretty much
> demolishes most of the art this list holds dear. I am so thankful
> that Vinny Golia, to use an example relevant to us here in the LA
> area,
> keeps on composing and playing even though a very tiny portion of
> Southern California listeners are hailing his cab. If LA listeners
> are
> the judge and jury of his art, he'd be better off driving a cab.
>
I think of the composer as being in specialized tour guide position.  You've
got some scenes (call them whatever you like) you want people to encounter,
they're at the mercy of the route you take 'em on.  It requires a different
set of specialized tools, but the premise is the same.  The audience is
passengers for where you aim to take them.  It's their decision as to
whether or not they got there.

As for the audience, I'm not talking about audiences at large.  I'm talking
about the people who make it a point to sign on for the tour in question.
Vinny's crowd has a better idea of whether he made his point or not than
maybe he does -- he's in the position of having to make sure the music
getting made is in line with what he's designed, so he doesn't really get to
be off the bandstand seeing how the music's being recieved by the people who
made it a point to check out what he's bringing to the show.  And, when
you're dealing with something as complex and stylized as what Vinny does,
it's a bit much to ask him to be composer, conductor, AND listener.  They
(the audience members) know what tour they're going on (to a degree), and
it's left up to them as to whether or not the trip was worth it.  They paid
the money, so its their perogative to approve or not.

As someone who actually makes a living as a composer (granted, for a more
general audience than someone like Vinny) right here in Hollywood, I will
allow this much -- I've met more good composers here than I have met good
cabdrivers.

skip h


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: wiper music/film
Date: 27 Mar 2002 16:23:57 -0500

>if skip tapes the wipers and plays the tape for >his friend, it is music.

There's a short film (I forget the title or creator but he's Canadian) that's shot from inside a car looking out the windshield and is edited to the rhythm of the wipers.  Much more interesting than it may sound.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: music defined (indeterminacy)
Date: 27 Mar 2002 16:14:11 -0600

On Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 10:12:16AM -0800, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:

> But since Cage favored so much random choices in music making, he is defini-
> tely consistant (which makes you wonder why he even cared composing since
> he worked so hard for the disappearance of the composer).

If you pay attention to the works, especially the later ones, you
discover that a lot of careful composing went on. While he used
chance, it was, very importantly, for some but not all parameters.

> I don't call
> the vision of the sky a picture, but the vision of the sky can be used to
> make a great painting.

I doubt anyone would call it a "picture", but there's no need to do so,
But it can be art for you if you choose to see it that way.

In a world full of beauty, why would someone insist that another person
package it (also called composing) before allowing himself to see it as
art?

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: music defined (indeterminacy)
Date: 27 Mar 2002 16:17:08 -0600

On Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 02:06:38PM -0500, Michael Berman wrote:
> well then any person encountering random sounds can determine its music if they hear it as such, which just made the 'audience' the 'artist'.   no?

Yes. Is that a bad thing?

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Toby Dodds" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: New Frisell (eh, record that is!)
Date: 27 Mar 2002 13:28:45 -0800

>> When is the last time that Frisell put some challenging or exciting
music?
>> He is slowly making himself as a specialist of warmed up food. One thing
>> is sure, he is unlikely to be laid of from Nonesuch.
>>
>> Patrice.
>>
>> PS: "White trash" is an American specialty, right?
>>
>> -

>I think Frisell lost something vital when Joey Baron left his group.
>
>"White trash" is definitely the kind of bigot's term in which Americans
>specialize.
>
>skip h

It's really the whole acoustic/electric debate with Frisell.  I like when he
sticks to his effects the best.

As for the what have you done for me lately schtick - the trio he recently
toured with featuring Kenny Wollesen and Tony Scherr easily lived up to the
classic Kermit/Joey ensemble..

Kenny and Joey Baron are really opposites at the kit in my opinion.
Wollesen's laid back grooves fit best with Frisell's current vibration.

Finally before someone beats me to the punch the Willies also features
Eyvind Kang bustin' some killer Charlie Daniels riffs.  Yeee Haw!  Go
Willies.

Toby

P.S. - Isn't the mullet a French word, Patrice?








-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Toby Dodds" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Zony Mash returns
Date: 27 Mar 2002 13:29:32 -0800

Zony Mash are back!  Go to www.waynehorvitz.com for the dirt.  Did anyone
see them/record them in Europe?


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: music defined (indeterminacy)
Date: 27 Mar 2002 16:21:56 -0600

On Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 01:16:31PM -0600, William Crump wrote:

> I think this answers Skip's question about the windshield wipers very
> well. The wiper sounds were very musical, AS THOUGH THEY HAD BEEN
> ORGANIZED AS MUSIC. Back to the definition of music I learned, I think
> that the concept of "organization" of sound is very loose. If Skip,
> having recognized the wiper sounds as musical, wanted to convey that
> musicality to a friend, said, "Hey, listen to this cool rhythm track,"
> and turned on the wipers, these sounds would change from being MUSICAL
> to being MUSIC. The act of turning on the wipers is the act of
> "organization of sounds and silences." I'm almost embarrassed to write
> something so fundamentally obvious, except my wife and I argue
> (pleasantly) about it all the time.

So if you had you eyes closed and you could not tell whether it was a
recording or live wipers, would the sound be music?

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Alan Kayser" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Frisell
Date: 27 Mar 2002 16:36:47 -0500

Skip Heller wrote

"I think Frisell lost something vital when Joey Baron left his group."

I couldn't agree more.  It seems as though Frisell gave up on his "jazz"
chops when Joey departed.  Perhaps just a coincidence, who knows.  The first
Joey-less release actually had no drummer at all.  That started a parade of,
IMHO, bland to worse, until I finally gave up.  At first it seemed a
parallel world to John McLaughlin cutting loose from Cobham and heading into
Shakti.  But no, JM's playing was and remains dynamic and always interesting
regardless of some questionable settings.  Not so for Bill.  Too bad.

Alan E Kayser







_________________________________________________________________
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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: music defined (indeterminacy)
Date: 27 Mar 2002 13:39:39 -0800


On Wed, 27 Mar 2002 16:17:08 -0600  Joseph Zitt wrote:
>
> On Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 02:06:38PM -0500, Michael Berman wrote:
> > well then any person encountering random sounds can determine its music if they hear it as such, which just made the 'audience' the 'artist'.   no?
>
> Yes. Is that a bad thing?

No. And if somebody wants to call plumbing litterature, and another
scubadiving poetry. Why not? As long as people feel happy, they can call
anything they want the way they want. And if the communication gap keeps
on increasing, that's the fault of people who are calling a chair a
chair.

Did I get it right, Joseph?

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "s~Z" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: music defined (indeterminacy)
Date: 27 Mar 2002 13:38:08 -0800

>>>I think of the composer as being in specialized tour guide
position.  You've
got some scenes (call them whatever you like) you want people to
encounter,
they're at the mercy of the route you take 'em on.<<<

This varies from composer to composer. Some have some scenes they
want people to encounter. Some are seized by a creative urgency
that
has little focus on an audience. Take Ives as one extreme example.
He
never heard some of his compositions performed. Not much concern
about
an audience there. The act of creating can be very intense and
personal.

>>>I'm talking about the people who make it a point to sign on for
the tour
in question. Vinny's crowd has a better idea of whether he made
his point
or not than maybe he does -- <<<

I just don't see creating art as making a point. I accept that
many do. For
me it answering an inner call that will not be denied, and the
measure of
the art is whether or not it answers that call, not whether or not
a listener
'gets' it or even likes it. For me, if the cab driver is the
composer, then the
passenger is that inner call, not any audience or audience member.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: music defined (indeterminacy)
Date: 27 Mar 2002 13:52:25 -0800

on 3/27/02 1:39 PM, Patrice L. Roussel at [e-mail] wrote:

>
> On Wed, 27 Mar 2002 16:17:08 -0600  Joseph Zitt wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 02:06:38PM -0500, Michael Berman wrote:
>>> well then any person encountering random sounds can determine its music if
>>> they hear it as such, which just made the 'audience' the 'artist'.   no?
>>
>> Yes. Is that a bad thing?
>
> No. And if somebody wants to call plumbing litterature, and another
> scubadiving poetry. Why not? As long as people feel happy, they can call
> anything they want the way they want. And if the communication gap keeps
> on increasing, that's the fault of people who are calling a chair a
> chair.

Say what you want, but the audience is definitely the last factor in the art
chain.  If the nature of composing is to communciate, the reaction of the
audience who chooses to be communicated to is as elemental as the impetus
felt by the composer felt when he designed the thing.  Is the composer more
important than his audience just because he's the composer? No, and
especially not when he's relying on his audience to pay his bills.
Audiences are not automatically sheep.  Their role is crucial.

skip h


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: wiper music
Date: 27 Mar 2002 16:40:38 -0600

On Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 08:25:53PM +0000, Kurt Gottschalk wrote:

> if skip's mom turns on the wipers on another trip to piano lesson, with skip
> enjoying the rhythm but not saying anything to his mother, who is anxious
> about driving in the rain and running late, it is not music.
>
> if skip's mom stops to run into the drugstore, and little skip, sitting by
> himself in the car, turns the ignition back on to listen to the wipers, it
> is music.

So, uh, Skip's mom, stepping out of the car, makes the wipers into
music, then makes them stop being music when she gets back in? While
Skip is sitting in the exact same seat, listening in the exact same
way to the exact same objects and processes creating the exact same
sounds?

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: music defined (indeterminacy)
Date: 27 Mar 2002 16:45:01 -0600

On Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 01:39:39PM -0800, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:
>
> On Wed, 27 Mar 2002 16:17:08 -0600  Joseph Zitt wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 02:06:38PM -0500, Michael Berman wrote:
> > > well then any person encountering random sounds can determine its music if they hear it as such, which just made the 'audience' the 'artist'.   no?
> >
> > Yes. Is that a bad thing?
>
> No. And if somebody wants to call plumbing litterature, and another
> scubadiving poetry. Why not? As long as people feel happy, they can call
> anything they want the way they want. And if the communication gap keeps
> on increasing, that's the fault of people who are calling a chair a
> chair.
>
> Did I get it right, Joseph?

Not in any sense that I can see.

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: music defined (indeterminacy)
Date: 27 Mar 2002 16:47:44 -0600

On Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 01:38:08PM -0800, s~Z wrote:

> I just don't see creating art as making a point. I accept that
> many do. For
> me it answering an inner call that will not be denied, and the
> measure of
> the art is whether or not it answers that call, not whether or not
> a listener
> 'gets' it or even likes it. For me, if the cab driver is the
> composer, then the
> passenger is that inner call, not any audience or audience member.

Thus, if a sound "answers that call" for the person making it, it is
music for that person. And if it answers the call for a person hearing
it, it is music for *that* person.

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Kurt Gottschalk" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE:WIPERMUSIC
Date: 27 Mar 2002 21:57:41 +0000

skip:
But as for "are they all music?" (the wiper variations, I mean), I'm not so
sure.  If you don't even remotely percieve that it could be music, how do
you know it's bad music?

point being that i don't object to anyone calling it music. whether or not
it's good is what matters.

a painter friend of mine considers traffic lights to be the most beautiful
artworks of the 20th century. not sure i agree, but you'd get further
arguing with him by saying they're bad art than that they're not art at all.

kg

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: music defined (indeterminacy)
Date: 27 Mar 2002 14:00:57 -0800

on 3/27/02 1:38 PM, s~Z at [e-mail] wrote:

>>>> I think of the composer as being in specialized tour guide
> position.  You've
> got some scenes (call them whatever you like) you want people to
> encounter,
> they're at the mercy of the route you take 'em on.<<<
>
> This varies from composer to composer. Some have some scenes they
> want people to encounter. Some are seized by a creative urgency
> that
> has little focus on an audience. Take Ives as one extreme example.
> He
> never heard some of his compositions performed. Not much concern
> about
> an audience there. The act of creating can be very intense and
> personal.

Ives is such a unique case, though. He's likely my favorite composer, but
he's in no way indicative of anything but himself.  I think Vinny, Niels,
and them cats are more typical within a certain world than Ives ever was.

>.Vinny's crowd has a better idea of whether he made
> his point
> or not than maybe he does -- <<<
>
> I just don't see creating art as making a point. I accept that
> many do. For
> me it answering an inner call that will not be denied, and the
> measure of
> the art is whether or not it answers that call, not whether or not
> a listener
> 'gets' it or even likes it. For me, if the cab driver is the
> composer, then the
> passenger is that inner call, not any audience or audience member.
>
I chose my words badly.  Likely I should have said "communicated his idea
effectively".

The inner call thing is only one part.  But if that's the thing to be
heeded, why go through the time, aggro, and expense to mount ensembles and
present it to an audience.  Maybe the argument is that the composer is
ultimately the passenger, except he winds up being the backseat driver,
because the factors that govern his technique -- as conceptualist, composer,
bandleader, player -- ultimately define the outcome of his work.

skip h


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Kurt Gottschalk" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: wiper music
Date: 27 Mar 2002 22:01:59 +0000

ok, i thought i was being damn clever, but maybe i was just obtuse. the
point had been made that it is the intent of the creator that makes
something art, which is a difficult standard to apply. if little skip turns
on the ignition with the intent to hear the wiper music, it perhaps is art.
but if he's just appreciating the sound after his mother turns on the
wipers, he's not involved in the creation, so it's just sound?

> > if skip's mom turns on the wipers on another trip to piano lesson, with
>skip
> > enjoying the rhythm but not saying anything to his mother, who is
>anxious
> > about driving in the rain and running late, it is not music.
> >
> > if skip's mom stops to run into the drugstore, and little skip, sitting
>by
> > himself in the car, turns the ignition back on to listen to the wipers,
>it
> > is music.
>
>So, uh, Skip's mom, stepping out of the car, makes the wipers into
>music, then makes them stop being music when she gets back in? While
>Skip is sitting in the exact same seat, listening in the exact same
>way to the exact same objects and processes creating the exact same
>sounds?
>
>--
>| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
>| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
>|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
>| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
>| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |
>


_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "s~Z" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: music defined (indeterminacy)
Date: 27 Mar 2002 14:00:13 -0800

>>>Say what you want, but the audience is definitely the last
factor in the art
chain.<<<

Absolutely last.

>>>If the nature of composing is to communciate, the reaction of
the
audience who chooses to be communicated to is as elemental as the
impetus
felt by the composer felt when he designed the thing.<<<

I think Moby Dick was a great work of art during Melville's
lifetime. The fact that it communicated nothing to his audience
was irrelevant from an artistic perspective, and unfortunate from
a financial perspective.



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: WIPERMUSIC
Date: 27 Mar 2002 14:06:15 -0800

on 3/27/02 1:57 PM, Kurt Gottschalk at [e-mail] wrote:

> skip:
> But as for "are they all music?" (the wiper variations, I mean), I'm not so
> sure.  If you don't even remotely percieve that it could be music, how do
> you know it's bad music?
>
> point being that i don't object to anyone calling it music. whether or not
> it's good is what matters.
>
> a painter friend of mine considers traffic lights to be the most beautiful
> artworks of the 20th century. not sure i agree, but you'd get further
> arguing with him by saying they're bad art than that they're not art at all.
>
> kg

I should have said that part better.  I meant that, once a thing is
percieved/presented as music, it's up to whoever is hearing it to make a
judgement call as to whether it's good music or not, which they only can do
when it's put before them as music.  To paraphrase Mr Zappa, without the
frame, it's just some stuff stuck to the wall.

skip h


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "s~Z" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: music defined (indeterminacy)
Date: 27 Mar 2002 14:04:11 -0800

>>>But if that's the thing to be
heeded, why go through the time, aggro, and expense to mount
ensembles and
present it to an audience.<<<

Because of what happens to and among musicians when they play
together.

The audience also participates in a live performance, but some of
my most memorable concert experiences have been played before but
a very few audience members, and had we all walked out, the music
would have continued.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Zachary Steiner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: music defined (indeterminacy)
Date: 27 Mar 2002 17:27:38 -0500

There is a question that I'm left with as a result of this heavily
discussed issue: What is the differentiation between "bad music" and
"noise?"  I call a lot of what my roommate listens to (alt-rock, faux
metal, etc) "bad music," but he calls a lot of what I listen to "noise."
Why is the undesirable sound that he listens to bad music in my mind and
not the same true for him (not just him but a great many people)?  I'm
curious.

Zach



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: music defined (indeterminacy)
Date: 27 Mar 2002 14:33:20 -0800

on 3/27/02 2:00 PM, s~Z at [e-mail] wrote:

>>>> Say what you want, but the audience is definitely the last
> factor in the art
> chain.<<<
>
> Absolutely last.
>
>>>> If the nature of composing is to communciate, the reaction of
> the
> audience who chooses to be communicated to is as elemental as the
> impetus
> felt by the composer felt when he designed the thing.<<<
>
> I think Moby Dick was a great work of art during Melville's
> lifetime. The fact that it communicated nothing to his audience
> was irrelevant from an artistic perspective, and unfortunate from
> a financial perspective.
>
well, often enough we have a time-delay factor.  But it would be absurd to
argue that Melville  -- or Nathaniel West or Esquivel -- didn't eventually
find the right audience.  Either way, he had to create the thing before it
could be received, and the audience had to be there to recieve it.


skip h


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: music defined (indeterminacy)
Date: 27 Mar 2002 14:48:05 -0800

on 3/27/02 2:04 PM, s~Z at [e-mail] wrote:

>>>> But if that's the thing to be
> heeded, why go through the time, aggro, and expense to mount
> ensembles and
> present it to an audience.<<<
>
> Because of what happens to and among musicians when they play
> together.
>
> The audience also participates in a live performance, but some of
> my most memorable concert experiences have been played before but
> a very few audience members, and had we all walked out, the music
> would have continued.
>
>
What happens with/for the ensemble in the course of the music is still
happening before the audience.  As to if the audience walks out, I'd say
they rendered their verdict as to whether or not they felt the journey was
worth it.  If one guy is left sitting there, enjoying it, then it works as
art for him.  But the rules of art are so subjective that it's unwise to
think you can take some finite art yardstick and say "If it fits in this
definition, it's art, otherwise, it ain't." Ultimately, it's up to the
individuals who encounter the work -- and not the composer --to decide
whether if fulfilled its purpose or not.

sh


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: wiper music
Date: 27 Mar 2002 17:37:57 -0600

On Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 10:01:59PM +0000, Kurt Gottschalk wrote:

> ok, i thought i was being damn clever, but maybe i was just obtuse. the
> point had been made that it is the intent of the creator that makes
> something art, which is a difficult standard to apply. if little skip turns
> on the ignition with the intent to hear the wiper music, it perhaps is art.
> but if he's just appreciating the sound after his mother turns on the
> wipers, he's not involved in the creation, so it's just sound?

Well, it's always sound. How he listens to it determines whether it's
music *to him*. In the absence of a listener (which may include a
composer siting alone), the question of whether there is music is not
meaningful.

Can there be love in a room with no one in it?

Hmm, this suggests (thinking out loud here) that to say something is
"music" is an emotional reaction to sound, and thus it is impossible
to say whether something standing alone is or is not music. When we
say that something "is music", we often mean that someone has created
a sound object (or a score or method for creating one) in the hope
that someone (which may be only the person who made it) will perceive
it and have that reaction. Or that someone has perceived a sound not
made by a person and had that reaction. And then there's metaphor...

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: music defined (indeterminacy)
Date: 27 Mar 2002 17:42:34 -0600

On Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 02:00:57PM -0800, skip Heller wrote:

> The inner call thing is only one part.  But if that's the thing to be
> heeded, why go through the time, aggro, and expense to mount ensembles and
> present it to an audience.  Maybe the argument is that the composer is
> ultimately the passenger, except he winds up being the backseat driver,
> because the factors that govern his technique -- as conceptualist, composer,
> bandleader, player -- ultimately define the outcome of his work.

Or, if they have experiences like some scriptwriters, the composer has
lost control over the keys, and is trapped, bound and screaming, in
the trunk as someone else drives the car over a cliff.

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: music defined (indeterminacy)
Date: 27 Mar 2002 17:45:39 -0600

On Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 02:48:05PM -0800, skip Heller wrote:

> What happens with/for the ensemble in the course of the music is still
> happening before the audience.  As to if the audience walks out, I'd say
> they rendered their verdict as to whether or not they felt the journey was
> worth it.  If one guy is left sitting there, enjoying it, then it works as
> art for him.

I was recently in a trio performance for a single audient. One of the
best shows of the tour. And Comma's first performance (in a record
store in Frederick, MD) had only a tiny crowd, so the performers,
organizers, and audience were all able to go out to dinner together
afterward.

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: music defined (indeterminacy)
Date: 27 Mar 2002 15:00:07 -0800


On Wed, 27 Mar 2002 17:45:39 -0600  Joseph Zitt wrote:
>
> On Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 02:48:05PM -0800, skip Heller wrote:
>
> > What happens with/for the ensemble in the course of the music is still
> > happening before the audience.  As to if the audience walks out, I'd say
> > they rendered their verdict as to whether or not they felt the journey was
> > worth it.  If one guy is left sitting there, enjoying it, then it works as
> > art for him.
>
> I was recently in a trio performance for a single audient. One of the
> best shows of the tour. And Comma's first performance (in a record
> store in Frederick, MD) had only a tiny crowd, so the performers,
> organizers, and audience were all able to go out to dinner together
> afterward.

Even better, if there is nobody in the audience, you can even save the effort
(and money) to go the place to perform!

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Kurt Gottschalk" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: wiper music
Date: 27 Mar 2002 23:10:40 +0000


>to say something is
>"music" is an emotional reaction to sound, and thus it is impossible
>to say whether something standing alone is or is not music. When we
>say that something "is music", we often mean that someone has created
>a sound object (or a score or method for creating one) in the hope
>that someone (which may be only the person who made it) will perceive
>it and have that reaction. Or that someone has perceived a sound not
>made by a person and had that reaction.

this i like!

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Emmanouil Papagiannakis <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re:Zony Mash returns
Date: 28 Mar 2002 00:15:56 +0100 (MET)

hi
I saw them last week in Amsterdam. I had not noticed that it would be an
acoustic version actually. I have only "Cold spell" CD, so I am not an
expert on them. The show was pretty cool. Really groovy, mostly
consisting of nicely thought melodic pieces, I especially liked the
guitar work. During one of the songs they went wild creating a nice
noise-sheet, really psychedelic. I didnt recognize any of the pieces
(but I am bad at it anyway...). Overall a worth-seeing concert.

manolis

PS: lookig forward to SEX MOB does BOND tomorrow!



E. Papagiannakis
Vrije Universiteit                Tel: [phone]
FEW, N&S                  Fax: [phone]
Biophysics
De Boelelaan 1081         www.nat.vu.nl/vakgroepen/bio/english
1081 HV, Amsterdam
The Netherlands


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Re: music defined (indeterminacy)
Date: 28 Mar 2002 01:00:39 +0000


On Wed, 27 Mar 2002 16:17:08 -0600  Joseph Zitt wrote:
 >
 > On Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 02:06:38PM -0500, Michael Berman wrote:
 > > well then any person encountering random sounds can determine its music
if they hear it as such, which just made the 'audience' the 'artist'.   no?
 >
 > Yes. Is that a bad thing?

No. And if somebody wants to call plumbing litterature, and another
scubadiving poetry. Why not? As long as people feel happy, they can call
anything they want the way they want. And if the communication gap keeps
on increasing, that's the fault of people who are calling a chair a
chair.

Did I get it right, Joseph?

    Patrice.
-------------

These are called "analogies" Patrice, not linguistic overextensions.
Calling a chair a "chair" is relatively simple.  Calling a sound "music" is
far less so, and certainly a point of contestation.  Plumbing is clearly not
the same as writing fiction and scuba diving is certainly different than
writing poety.  But one who scuba dives and plumbs for a living might find
"poetic" and "literary" elements to their activity and might be compelled to
draw an analogy or use a metaphor to describe it.  Language isn't falling to
hell.  It's doing what it always does:  It moves.





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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Silent Watcher" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Fred Frith mailing list
Date: 27 Mar 2002 20:19:01 -0500

yeah, i have the same problem. i tried to post twice recently and after a
few days or weeks, the message was sent back undeliverable...

dave

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: mwoodwor <[e-mail]>
Subject: zamboni is music!?
Date: 27 Mar 2002 21:27:25 -0400

FOr those of you debating about what constitutes music, you
should all check out the aquarius records website - their
feature album of the week is a 22 minute 'drone music' piece
that is thought to be entirely comprised of sounds made by
a zamboni machine (not sure if everyone knows what that is, I'm from
Canada so I certainly do, it is the machine that goes over the ice between
periods of a hockey game).  It is EXCELLENT, and if the 'zamboni' be good
music, I think just about anything can be.........


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>
Subject: re: "challenging" music--a pragmatist's perspective
Date: 28 Mar 2002 01:42:56 +0000

"Challenging" music is music that comes outside your frame of reference and
forces you to deal with it on different terms than what you are accustomed.
It communicates by not communicating (that is, in the expected forms).  It
forces you to do more than just "receive" it.  It demands more investment.
Some music makes the demand and we deem it unworthy of our investment.
Other music makes the same demand, and we accede to the demand.  We put in
time.  We listen again and again.  Sometimes the music yields to the
investment; sometimes not.  Sometimes it yields itself to one person's
investment but not another's.  Sometimes we get frustrated at the lack of
yield; write a review, "evaluate" the work based on the expected "yield,"
not realizing it simply didn't yield itself to "us."  Sometimes we join a
community of others and find it's yielded itself to no one or very, very
few, and we "judge" it as bad.  "It didn't yield to the community of judges"
= the polite definition of "bad" art.  "It didn't have an immanent "yield"
to yield" = impolite (and unpragmatic) definition of "bad" art.  What is the
yield when it "yields?"  Aural comprehension; emotive agitation; aesthetic
satisfaction.  Something completely outside language, except for the
language of music, whatever that is.

Is "challenging" music that yields more worthy as art than "less
challenging" music that yields?  No, unless one is invested in
avant-snobbery.

Is "less challenging" music that yields more worthy as art than
"challenging" music that doesn't yield to me?  No, unless we find ourselves
as part of the "community of judges."  ("Not being part of the
community"--Just a fancy way of saying no one takes your opinion seriously
[unless they are your friend, obviously]).

Are the temporally local "community of judges" always right?  No, only of
the communities that follow in subsequent years confirm them again and
again.

Who decides, the artist or the audience?  They both do.

The lesson of "challenging" music is that we shouldn't always trust our
initial reactions, considering such music always requires a reconfiguration
of our sonic coordinates first.  The question to always ask:  are we capable
of reconfiguring our sonic coordinates?  If so, how often?

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re:Re: wiper music
Date: 28 Mar 2002 01:57:32 +0000


if little skip turns
on the ignition with the intent to hear the wiper music, it perhaps is art.
but if he's just appreciating the sound after his mother turns on the
wipers, he's not involved in the creation, so it's just sound?
---------------------
Skip, do you realize that you've turned into "Little Skip" right before our
very eyes?

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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: wiper music
Date: 27 Mar 2002 18:20:05 -0800

on 3/27/02 5:57 PM, Bill Ashline at [e-mail] wrote:

> From: "Kurt Gottschalk" <[e-mail]>
> Subject: Re: wiper music
>
> if little skip turns
> on the ignition with the intent to hear the wiper music, it perhaps is art.
> but if he's just appreciating the sound after his mother turns on the
> wipers, he's not involved in the creation, so it's just sound?
> ---------------------
> Skip, do you realize that you've turned into "Little Skip" right before our
> very eyes?
>
One more remark like that, and I'll SHOW you little Skip ;->


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: zamboni is music!?
Date: 27 Mar 2002 23:00:06 -0600

On Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 09:27:25PM -0400, mwoodwor wrote:
> FOr those of you debating about what constitutes music, you
> should all check out the aquarius records website - their
> feature album of the week is a 22 minute 'drone music' piece
> that is thought to be entirely comprised of sounds made by
> a zamboni machine (not sure if everyone knows what that is, I'm from
> Canada so I certainly do, it is the machine that goes over the ice between
> periods of a hockey game).  It is EXCELLENT, and if the 'zamboni' be good
> music, I think just about anything can be.........

That could be quite beautiful. What's the URL?

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Benito Vergara" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: zamboni is music!?
Date: 27 Mar 2002 20:22:38 -0800

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail]
> [mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Joseph Zitt
> Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2002 9:00 PM

> That could be quite beautiful. What's the URL?

Sound samples on http://aquariusrecords.org/ -- it's the first of the
highlights of the week...

It's Jean-Francoise Laporte's "Mantra," out on Metamkine.

I may as well add my props to Aquarius Records; they've made me part with my
money more times than I can count.

Later,
Ben

http://members.tripod.com/~tamad2/
ICQ/AIM: thewilyfilipino / Yahoo!: sunny70


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "s~Z" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: music defined (indeterminacy)
Date: 27 Mar 2002 21:49:40 -0800

>>>well, often enough we have a time-delay factor.  But it would
be absurd to
argue that Melville  -- or Nathaniel West or Esquivel -- didn't
eventually
find the right audience.<<<

But the greatness of the art had nothing to do with whether or not
it found an audience.
It was great when he wrote it. And he never experienced acceptance
by an audience.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "s~Z" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: music defined (indeterminacy)
Date: 27 Mar 2002 21:52:40 -0800

>>>Ultimately, it's up to the
individuals who encounter the work -- and not the composer --to
decide
whether if fulfilled its purpose or not.<<<

They can have different opinions that have equal validity.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "s~Z" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: music defined (indeterminacy)
Date: 27 Mar 2002 21:55:37 -0800

>>>Why is the undesirable sound that he listens to bad music in my
mind and
not the same true for him (not just him but a great many people)?
I'm
curious.<<<

Because he has bad taste.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "john schuller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fantomas / Melt Banana style bands..
Date: 27 Mar 2002 22:15:33 -0800

<html><div style='background-color:'><DIV>I just wanted to pass along this link. It is an amazing band from Seattle called "Apes of Wrath". They are flat out great... <A href="http://www.apesofwrath.com/">www.apesofwrath.com</A> is where you can find them. There are plenty of MP3's to check out.</DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<P>Does anyone have any recommendations of other bands in the style of Fantomas and Melt Banana?<BR><BR></P>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><EM>JMS </EM></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://www.johnschuller.da.ru/"><EM><FONT color=#000000>http://www.johnschuller.da.ru</FONT></EM></A></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://www.mp3.com/worldmisery"><EM><FONT color=#000000>http://www.mp3.com/worldmisery</FONT></EM></A></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV></div><br clear=all><hr>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at <a href='http://g.msn.com/1HM305401/13'>http://explorer.msn.com</a>.<br></html>

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: music defined (indeterminacy)
Date: 27 Mar 2002 23:32:39 -0800

on 3/27/02 9:49 PM, s~Z at [e-mail] wrote:

>>>> well, often enough we have a time-delay factor.  But it would
> be absurd to
> argue that Melville  -- or Nathaniel West or Esquivel -- didn't
> eventually
> find the right audience.<<<
>
> But the greatness of the art had nothing to do with whether or not
> it found an audience.
> It was great when he wrote it. And he never experienced acceptance
> by an audience.
>
true.  but whether it coud be recieved as art had a helluva lot to do with
finding an audience that could deal with it.




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "William York" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: "...than a spoonfull of starmatter" (actual music content)
Date: 28 Mar 2002 08:24:32

>I've become kinda curious about some of the more metallic things a >propos
>to this list via "Leng T'che". What I seek is the slow, the >cataclysmic,
>monstrously dense, epic (not so much the sword and >sorcery styled epic,
>but the soul collapsing in on it self...the >subjectively epic). Rocking is
>good, rocking with experiemental
>tendancies is even better.

Hey,

Some of these were mentioned a few weeks ago in the Melvins thread, since
they have had so much of an influence on this little genre of
collapsing/dense/smothering/monstrous heaviness.

I wish I had time/wrist strength to go into detail on these, but here are
some albums worth punishing yourself with:

On Southern Lord:

Boris - Absolutego (includes a 65-minute track; the best of theirs to start
with if you seek anguish and torture, b/c Amplifier Worship is more
psychedelic and Flood is much quieter, on the whole)

Khanate - s/t

Sunn 0))) - Flight of the Behemoth (especially this one); 00 Void (also
impressive, especially w/ good sub-woofers)

On other labels:

Harvey Milk - Courtesy and Good Will Toards Men (tUMULt)

Old Man Gloom - Seminar III (Tortuga)

ISIS - Celestial (Escape Artist); SGNL>05 (Neurot)

Aquarius has reviews of a lot of Corrupted stuff. Esoteric (from the UK, not
to be confused with other Esoterics) is also worth checking out, e.g.,
Metamorphogenesis. Talk about slow/heavy/anguished/psychedelic...

Hope this helps,

WY (happy to have seen Peter Brotzmann three straight nights at the Glenn
Spearman festival in Oakland last week. Hopefully someone taped the Marco
Eneidi/Jackson Krall/Brotz set b/c it was pretty amazing. I know they taped
the Fred Frith/Chris Brown/Krall/Eneidi/Brotz set at Mills, and that was
amazing, but I think this trio set was even better...)



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "josephneff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: music defined (indeterminacy)
Date: 28 Mar 2002 04:05:39 -0500

Hello,
      ...but IIRC, Melville's early works were rather popular. One of the
reasons he's so significant to me is that he's one of the first examples of
the artist who refused to be roped in by the demands of his audience. All
art, to me is an attempt to communicate. Even if that communication is only
between the artist and himself. In Melville's case, he refused to fall into
the trap of hack work, and wrote for himself first, in hopes that his work
would then be appreciated by whoever would then read it. That people weren't
reading didn't deter him. As he said in "Pierre", "I will write precisely as
I please".
    To this day I have no doubt that a huge crowd-pleaser like Otis Redding
considered his first artistic responsibility to be meeting his own
standards, not his audiences. He may not have even consciously thought about
it, but I feel it was in him somewhere. Of course, he wanted people to like
his music, he was no snob, but I don't feel the desire for acceptance ever
clouded his own judgment.
    I certainly feel the audience is important in the overall equation (since
most artists are doing more than just communicating with themselves), but
when the audience's approval becomes the artist's number one objective, then
I feel that their work will ultimately prove inferior to that created by
artists who are in some way driven by a inner fire to reach a certain
plateau, and after having done so, then show it off to the world.
    Pretty messy, that last paragraph.

I remain...

Joseph

NP: V/A "Zapped" LP (Frank Zappa- "Willie the Pimp")
NR: Flannery O'Connor- "Wise Blood"

-----Original Message-----
[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of s~Z
Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2002 12:50 AM


>>>well, often enough we have a time-delay factor.  But it would
be absurd to
argue that Melville  -- or Nathaniel West or Esquivel -- didn't
eventually
find the right audience.<<<

But the greatness of the art had nothing to do with whether or not
it found an audience.
It was great when he wrote it. And he never experienced acceptance
by an audience.


-


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Remco Takken" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: New Frisell (eh, record that is!)
Date: 28 Mar 2002 10:50:33 +0100

> >>
> >> PS: "White trash" is an American specialty, right?
> >>
> >> -
Mhm, in the present days of Le Pen, Haider and recently in my country
Fortuyn, 'White Thrash' seems to be spread over europe too.
Remco Takken


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Arthur Gadney" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Fantomas / Melt Banana style bands..
Date: 28 Mar 2002 10:18:50 +0000

Hello

>Does anyone have any recommendations of other bands in the style of
>Fantomas and Melt Banana?

Yes, you *have* to check out DUREFORSOG!! Their first album "KNEE" kicks ass
all over Fantomas and I would say it's as good as any Melt Banana.

For their second album they signed to Kool Arrow records and changed quite a
bit, but they are still great. And they should have a new one comming out
soon.

Home pages:

http://www.dureforsog.com
http://www.koolarrow.com/dureforsog/index.shtml

But go straight for "KNEE" and I'd be curious to hear if anybody else likes
them. They played at the Knitting factory a while back.

Cheers,

NP: Derek Bailey: "Aida"
NR: http://www.tmtmetropolis.ru/stories/2002/03/22/120.html


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Arthur Gadney" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: New Frisell (eh, record that is!)
Date: 28 Mar 2002 10:25:56 +0000

>When is the last time that Frisell put some challenging or exciting music?
>He is slowly making himself as a specialist of warmed up food. One thing
>is sure, he is unlikely to be laid of from Nonesuch.

Exactly!! Frisell used to be my hero, but these days... It's a tragedy. He
never seems to challenge himself or anyone else anymore. To be honest, the
last several records has been total garbage and judging from the upcomming
stuff, it doesn't seem like it's gonna change.

Even more sad is the case of Joey Baron. I used to concider him probably the
coolest drummer on earth. These days, he is an absolute bore. Masada rocks,
but I never thought this would be his most challenging project! Go to the
news section at http://www.joeybaron.com to see the sad facts. All his
future plans are totally uninteresting.

There was talk of a "new" trio of Fred Frith, Bob Ostertag anf Joey Baron
after Frith moved to America, but I haven't heard of it since. I guess Joey
got scared away :-(

Cheers,





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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Arthur Gadney" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: New Frisell (eh, record that is!)
Date: 28 Mar 2002 10:27:00 +0000


>I think Frisell lost something vital when Joey Baron left his group.

Do you think Joey still has it?? What of his current stuff do you recommend?



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Arthur Gadney" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: New Frisell (eh, record that is!)
Date: 28 Mar 2002 10:28:44 +0000


>Finally before someone beats me to the punch the Willies also features
>Eyvind Kang bustin' some killer Charlie Daniels riffs.  Yeee Haw!  Go
>Willies.

Unfortunately I think that's only live. He's not on the upcomming CD, is
he??



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Arthur Gadney" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zony Mash returns
Date: 28 Mar 2002 10:37:40 +0000

>Zony Mash are back!  Go to www.waynehorvitz.com for the dirt.  Did anyone
>see them/record them in Europe?

Yes, what about Wayne Horvitz. What's he up to? He was always my least
favorite Naked City member. Has he done any good stuff since? I like 4+1
alot, but Zony Mash is horrible.

To be honest, I think the post Naked City period is not too good. Frith is
amazing as ever and of course nothing can stop EYE, but the others I'm not
too impressed by. It seemed that right after the end of N.C., people went of
with a lot of inspiration, but it didn;t last long....

But I did fnd he following on the Wayne Horvitz site. Is Varmint a new
band?? It looks pretty good. Perhaps!

VARMINT at I-SPY April 20th.
Wayne Horvitz - B3 Organ, Keyboards
Bill Frisell - Guitar
Eyvind Kang - Viola
P.K.- Bass
Kevin Sawka-Drums

Cheers,

PS: I just had a second thought on the "Frisell lost it with Joey thing". I
dunno. "Quartet" is my favorite Frisell record. Why didn't he work more with
that group!? So many possibilities!!


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Arthur Gadney" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Fred Frith mailing list
Date: 28 Mar 2002 10:40:15 +0000

>From: "Silent Watcher" <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: Fwd: Fred Frith mailing list
>Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 20:19:01 -0500
>
>yeah, i have the same problem. i tried to post twice recently and after a
>few days or weeks, the message was sent back undeliverable...
>
>dave

You're luckly! For me they don't even bounce back, just dissapear... ;-)


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: mwoodwor <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: zamboni is music!?
Date: 28 Mar 2002 07:58:22 -0400

It is

http://www.aquariusrecordssf.com/

There is 3 or 4 samples from it.

Hey, just listening to William Parker's - O'Neils Porch, just reissued
on AUm Fidelity - geeez, now I can see why so many people put it in their top
ten for last year - it is happening!

Mike


>===== Original Message From Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]> =====
>On Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 09:27:25PM -0400, mwoodwor wrote:
>> FOr those of you debating about what constitutes music, you
>> should all check out the aquarius records website - their
>> feature album of the week is a 22 minute 'drone music' piece
>> that is thought to be entirely comprised of sounds made by
>> a zamboni machine (not sure if everyone knows what that is, I'm from
>> Canada so I certainly do, it is the machine that goes over the ice between
>> periods of a hockey game).  It is EXCELLENT, and if the 'zamboni' be good
>> music, I think just about anything can be.........
>
>That could be quite beautiful. What's the URL?
>
>--
>| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
>| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
>|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
>| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
>| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Mark Saleski <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: WIPERMUSIC
Date: 28 Mar 2002 09:03:48 -0500


i wish i had that exact zappa quote but it also said something about
having to package up art so that people would recognize it as art.

i used to have the quote on my living room wall attached to this ,
uh...artwork that i constructed. it was basically a large frame made of
4x4's. about seven feet high and eight feet long. suspended inside of
this frame were four old windows that i had found by the side of the
road. i took them home, painted them flat black and then splattered them
with enamel paint in bright red and blue. the windows were suspended
with chains. i have no idea why i made this thing. it just seemed like a
good idea...but stumbling across that zappa quote was fantastic. people
would see this thing for the first time and then read that quote. if
they didn't "get it" ...they would get this slightly uncomfortable look
on their face. my intent really wasn't to make anybody uncomfortable. it
was just kinda interesting how to discover that there's such a large
percentage of people who think pretty mild works of art are so "out
there". i shouldn't have been surprised. i mean, people think i'm nuts
for listening to stuff like Naked City and we all know that that's not
even _close_ to being really out there.

mark

skip wrote:


>I should have said that part better.  I meant that, once a thing is
>percieved/presented as music, it's up to whoever is hearing it to make a
>judgement call as to whether it's good music or not, which they only can do
>when it's put before them as music.  To paraphrase Mr Zappa, without the
>frame, it's just some stuff stuck to the wall.

--
Mark Saleski - [e-mail] | http://www.foliage.com/~marks
"Music is spiritual. The music business is not." - Van Morrison



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Mark Saleski <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: music defined (indeterminacy)
Date: 28 Mar 2002 09:13:02 -0500


>There is a question that I'm left with as a result of this heavily
>discussed issue: What is the differentiation between "bad music" and
>"noise?"  I call a lot of what my roommate listens to (alt-rock, faux
>metal, etc) "bad music," but he calls a lot of what I listen to "noise."
>Why is the undesirable sound that he listens to bad music in my mind and
>not the same true for him (not just him but a great many people)?  I'm
>curious.

i've always thought that the "why does it sound good to me" question is
really interesting.

i've got a friend at work who's always trying new stuff out on me. i'm
not sure what you call this stuff but it's in the vein of people like
Mark Kozelek, Nick Drake, a bunch of stuff on 4AD...i've started to call
it "mope rock".

i read reviews of this stuff i and see adjectives like "downcast",
"gentle","whispy".....and i just don't get it. i get perceive no emotion
at all from this stuff. to me they all sound bored.

of course their are tons of folks out there (and on this list i'm zure)
who love this stuff.

it's all a big mystery.

--
Mark Saleski - [e-mail] | http://www.foliage.com/~marks
"Music is spiritual. The music business is not." - Van Morrison



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Perfect Sound Forever <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: music defined (indeterminacy)
Date: 28 Mar 2002 09:44:55 -0500

> Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 04:05:39 -0500
> From: "josephneff"
>
> I certainly feel the audience is important in the overall equation (since
> most artists are doing more than just communicating with themselves), but
> when the audience's approval becomes the artist's number one objective, then
> I feel that their work will ultimately prove inferior to that created by
> artists who are in some way driven by a inner fire to reach a certain
> plateau, and after having done so, then show it off to the world.
>

Most of the time I would agree with you but life isn't that simple, sad to say.

The songwriters of Tin Pan Alley practically invented the whole genre of popular music in the early 1900's and all of them were working solely to write hits for different artists and sell sheet music.  In the early '60's, the Brill Building songwriters were doing the same thing- writing songs to get hits
out of artists.  Crass as this may sound, they wrote beautiful, enduring songs for Aretha Franklin, the Drifters, the Shirelles and many others.  Similarly, other great songwriters of the '50's and '60's like Doc Pomus (Elvis, Ben E. King, Dion, Joe Turner) and Lieber/Stroller (Elvis, Coasters, Drifters)
wrote to order while coming up with classic songs.  That's not even mentioning the songwriter teams that Berry Gordy had in place at Motown and the committees he put together to judge their work and access if they would be hits and thus worthy of release- the results speak for themself.  Sadly, today we
have the likes of Lou Pearlman (Backstreet Boys, NSYNC), who does the same thing though nowhere NEARLY as well as his predecessors (sorry to anyone on the list who's a fan of the boy-groups!).

Best,
Jason
--
Perfect Sound Forever
online music magazine
[e-mail]
http://www.furious.com/perfect



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "In Out CD Store" <[e-mail]>
Subject: A few things to sell (LP first)
Date: 28 Mar 2002 16:47:04 +0100

hi all,

Sorry for thisintrusion but I have a few Lp I'd like to sell and that may
interest some of you.
E-mail me privately if you are interested on some of them and to know about
MORE ABOUT IT.
next time I will send a cd selection.
Sorry again for the rest of the list.
mikl

All are LP in very good condtion.

Name : E.Chadbourne- Title : Torture Time Label : Parachute 16 - Price : 30
Euros + S&H
Name : Faton/Bloom - Title : S/T - Label : cryonic inc - Price : 13 Euros
+S&H
Name : L.Mazzacane Connors/J-M. Montera/T.Moore/L.Ranaldo - Title : MMMR -
Label : Xeric - Price : 13 Euros +S&H
Name : Philippe Herpin/Daniel Parboeuf - Title : Nous D'eux - Label :
Celluloid - Prix : 13 Euros+ S&H
Name : Jame's blood Ulmer - Title : Are you Glad to be in Americ ? - Label :
Rough Trade - Price : 20 Euros + S&H
Name : Brion Gysin/Polo Lombardo- Title : S/T - Label : Mosquito - Price :
25 Euros + S&H
Name : Jame's blood Ulmer - Title : Are you Glad to be in Americ ? - Label :
Rough Trade - Price : 20 Euros + S&H
Name : B.Laswell/P.Brotzmann - Title : Low Life - Label : Celluloid - Price
: 13 Euros +S&H
Name : Alex Grillo Quintet - Title : A table !- Label : The sorcerer - Prix
: 15 Euros + S&H
Name : L.Mazzacane Connors/J-M. Montera/T.Moore/L.Ranaldo - Title : MMMR -
Label : Xeric - Price : 13 Euros +S&H
Name : Slikaphonics - Title : Modern Life - Label : Polydor - Price : 13
Euros +S&H
Name : Jurgen Wuchner's string project - Title : S/T- Label : Blue Flame-
ice : 10 Euros +S&H
Name : Various- Title : Hardcell- Label : Celluloid- Price : 13 Euros.S&H
Name : R.Bruninghaus/M.Stockhausen/F.Studer- Title : Continuum- Label : ECM-
Price : 13 Euros+ S&H
Name : A.Mangelsdorff/J.PAstorius/A.Monzon- Title : Trilogue Live - Label :
MPS- Price : 15 Euros + S&H
Name : Martha Bass/ Fontella Bass/David Peaston - Title : From the Roots to
the Source - Label : Soul Note - Price : 25 Euros +S&H
Name : Brion Gysin/Polo Lombardo- Title : S/T - Label : Mosquito - Price :
25 Euros + S&H
Name : B.Laswell/P.Brotzmann - Title : Low Life - Label : Celluloid - Price
: 13 Euros +S&H
Name : Rolf and Joaquim Khun- Title : Impressions of New York- Label :
Impulse- Price : 30 Euros + S&H
Name : Kontrom- Title : Grenzenlos- Label : Extraplate - Price : 13 Euros +
S&H
Name : Jame's blood Ulmer - Title : Are you Glad to be in Americ ? - Label :
Rough Trade - Price : 20 Euros + S&H





-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: New Frisell (eh, record that is!)
Date: 28 Mar 2002 08:18:05 -0800

on 3/28/02 2:27 AM, Arthur Gadney at [e-mail] wrote:

>
>> I think Frisell lost something vital when Joey Baron left his group.
>
> Do you think Joey still has it?? What of his current stuff do you recommend?
>
>
I think his playing on Dave's SOUL ON SOUL was really fantastic, and his
playing on THE GIFT didn't suck either.  Personally, I just think Joey Baron
is so fantastic, so I'm bound to endorse just about anything where he plays.

skip h


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Parry Gettelman <[e-mail]>
Subject: William Parker radio programs/concert
Date: 28 Mar 2002 16:22:26 GMT

Got this from a pal in Boston with a jazz show on WZBC, if anyone's
interested in tuning in or is lucky enough to be able to get to the
concert...


WILLIAM PARKER CONCERT & RADIO PROGRAM ON WZBC 90.3 FM

PART I:  Test Pattern, William Parker (1973-1989)
FRIDAY, 03.29.02, 6:00-7:00pm EST, WZBC 90.3 FM
Includes interview with William Parker.  Focusing on William's early
collaborations before his work as a leader, including several choice
rarities -- his first recording with Frank Lowe's Black Beings, plus Billy
Bang's Survival Ensemble, Jemeel Moondoc, and Cecil Taylor.

PART II:  Free Association, William Parker (1990-present)
MONDAY, 04.01.02, 7:00-10:00pm EST, WZBC 90.3 FM
Includes interview with William Parker.  Focusing on William work as a
leader with the Little Huey Creative Music Orchestra, In Order to Survive,
his new quartet, and his music in solo settings and duet settings with Hamid
Drake.  We'll also hear sessions from his long-time association with Other
Dimensions In Music, David S Ware Quartet, and Peter Brotzmann's Die Like A
Dog.  And of course music from his latest project, The Inside Songs of
Curtis Mayfield.

CONCERT:  William Parker and The Inside Songs of Curtis Mayfield
TUESDAY, 04.02.02, 8:00pm
Institute of Contemporary Art, 955 Boylston Street, Boston MA
William Parker, bass; Dave Burrell, piano; Amiri Baraka, poetry; Leena
Conquest, vocals; Lewis Barnes, trumpet; Darryl Foster, sax; Guillermo E
Brown, drums.

Live 56k and 128k streams available at
http://www.live365.com/ and
http://www.zbconline.com/


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: New Frisell (eh, record that is!)
Date: 28 Mar 2002 08:20:08 -0800

>
> Even more sad is the case of Joey Baron. I used to concider him probably the
> coolest drummer on earth. These days, he is an absolute bore. Masada rocks,
> but I never thought this would be his most challenging project! Go to the
> news section at http://www.joeybaron.com to see the sad facts. All his
> future plans are totally uninteresting.

I heard a little of the new Abercrombie, and I'm sure not complaining.
Liked his last record a lot too.

sh


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "s~Z" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: music defined (indeterminacy)
Date: 28 Mar 2002 08:32:56 -0800

>>>true.  but whether it coud be recieved as art had a helluva lot
to do with
finding an audience that could deal with it.<<<

And the artists that are more concerned with excellence than with
finding an audience, or appealing to an audience, create the art
that endures. Often it continues to appeal to a small audience
over time, but it keeps finding an audience. Art that is created
with more attention to its audience ends of timebound and
ephemeral. Great art transcends, and there is a very small
audience for transcendence. To say that a given listener is the
final determinant of the greatness of a piece of music may or may
not be true depending on a lot of factors. In many cases the music
is more of a 'judge' of the quality and evolution of the listener
rather than the other way around. But, I'm trying to be careful
not to make overgeneralizations. These issues are very complicated
due to the complexity of the human organism and the inticracies of
the interaction between human creation and the reception of human
creation. In this age when we are trying so hard to be gracious
and give everyone's opinions and tastes equal validity, we are in
danger of legitimizing mediocrity. In the sciences, the experts
are recognized as such, and the lay public has to work to develop
the level of understanding required to grasp complicated concepts.
In music, a trained and gifted composer deserves the same respect,
and the same effort is required of the listener. If the listener
is the final arbiter of what constitutes excellence, the composer
will have to compose at a level beneath his or her talents and
expertise to make sure the listener gets it.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Kurt Gottschalk" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Melville
Date: 28 Mar 2002 17:33:35 +0000

>>>he's one of the first examples of the artist who refused to be roped in
>>>by the demands of his audience.

wow, joseph -- you must know a lot about art! i didn't know ancient chinese
printmakers, early indian composers, j.s. bach or cavedwellers drawing on
walls were so beholden to the masses! [little smiley winky emoticon thingy]

kg

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Melville
Date: 28 Mar 2002 13:02:49 EST

In a message dated 3/28/02 12:34:35 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< >>>He's one of the first examples of the artist who refused to be roped in
 >>>by the demands of his audience. >>
What about Michael Jackson?

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Oger <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: music defined (indeterminacy)
Date: 28 Mar 2002 19:15:10 +0200

>
>From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
>
>My point was more against the philosophy that *ANY* sound is music. For me
>there is a need for a conscious mind behind the sounds (preparing, organizing,
>ordering them, etc) for the sounds to become music.
>
>But since Cage favored so much random choices in music making, he is defini-
>tely consistant (which makes you wonder why he even cared composing since
>he worked so hard for the disappearance of the composer). I am personally only
>interested in conscious choices leaving little chance to random events :-).
>As a result, sounds are only sounds, waiting for some artist to give them
>life. Without the latter, they are just acoustic phenomena. I don't call
>the vision of the sky a picture, but the vision of the sky can be used to
>make a great painting.
>
>    Patrice.

Yes and no.

As you said before, it is cultural loaded.
What do you call organized sounds ? Harmony ? AABA ?

I like very much listening to some sounds : for instance I know a
place near the river Rhone (in France) where you can listen to a lot
of sounds at the same time : water, people talking in remote places,
animal sounds, train,.... For me it is music. I never heard that
anywhere else, and of course not by musicians.
The most amazing for me is during the night outside in summer (in
southern France).

Maybe many musicians, at the beginning, wanted to imitate the sounds
they heard in nature.
Think of people in african forests listening in the night. Musique concrete.
Think of Beethoven with his 5th symphony. Abstract music. In that
case, what is the composer's purpose ?

Jacques Oger
(sorry to be late in this thread, and for my bad english, I can't
write exactly what I mean).

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: music defined (indeterminacy)
Date: 28 Mar 2002 13:23:07 -0600

On Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 09:52:40PM -0800, s~Z wrote:
> >>>Ultimately, it's up to the
> individuals who encounter the work -- and not the composer --to
> decide
> whether if fulfilled its purpose or not.<<<
>
> They can have different opinions that have equal validity.

At the risk of decending further into the snakepit: validity for whom?

I value Steve Smith's recommendations, because I have found them
worthwhile in the past. I would probably put less weight on the
recommendations of someone whose track record I didn't know. Someone
else who hadn't seen his posts before might have a different weighting
on the recommendations.

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: music defined (indeterminacy)
Date: 28 Mar 2002 13:30:08 -0600

On Thu, Mar 28, 2002 at 08:32:56AM -0800, s~Z wrote:

> If the listener
> is the final arbiter of what constitutes excellence, the composer
> will have to compose at a level beneath his or her talents and
> expertise to make sure the listener gets it.

Perhaps the best and most effective art is that which appeals both to
the lay listener and to the specialist. Beethoven and Mozart managed to
write works that had all the complexities, etc, that the standard
arbiters of excellence look for while also having irresistable catchy
hit melodies.

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "s~Z" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: music defined (indeterminacy)
Date: 28 Mar 2002 10:40:34 -0800

>>>At the risk of decending further into the snakepit: validity
for whom?<<<

This depends on what is meant by 'validity.'

In your Steve Smith example, are you talking about personal taste?
When it comes to personal taste, 'for whom' is the individual
listener.
I follow his recommendations as well. My recent encounter with
Cannibal
Ox, not recommended by Mr. Smith, left me scratching my head.
Now, I don't think Cannibal Ox is not valid art. I can see it has
its
place and can understand why it got recommended here. I just don't
like it.
At all.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: New Frisell (eh, record that is!)
Date: 28 Mar 2002 11:19:50 -0800


On Thu, 28 Mar 2002 10:50:33 +0100  "Remco Takken" wrote:
>
> > >>
> > >> PS: "White trash" is an American specialty, right?
> > >>
> > >> -
> Mhm, in the present days of Le Pen, Haider and recently in my country
> Fortuyn, 'White Thrash' seems to be spread over europe too.
> Remco Takken

But I felt that "white trash" was not equal to racism. After all these
years in the US, I just realized that "white trash" means something that
has no equivalent in France (and I am tempted to say, Europe). "white
trash" encapsulates many behaviors that are all universal, but it is
the collection of these behaviors that makes the package very
American.

Anyway, this is just the feeling of an ousider from the inside.

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Toby Dodds" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zony Mash returns
Date: 28 Mar 2002 11:20:56 -0800


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2002 2:37 AM

> Yes, what about Wayne Horvitz. What's he up to? He was always my least
> favorite Naked City member. Has he done any good stuff since? I like 4+1
> alot, but Zony Mash is horrible.


I'm too exhausted from seeing yet another fantastic Zony Mash concert last
night to comment.

"You're either with us or against us."  :-T



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: music defined (indeterminacy)
Date: 28 Mar 2002 11:46:10 -0800

on 3/28/02 8:32 AM, s~Z at [e-mail] wrote:

>>>> true.  but whether it coud be recieved as art had a helluva lot
> to do with
> finding an audience that could deal with it.<<<
>
> And the artists that are more concerned with excellence than with
> finding an audience, or appealing to an audience, create the art
> that endures. Often it continues to appeal to a small audience
> over time, but it keeps finding an audience.

Exactly.  This is the one instance where size doesn't matter.


>Art that is created
> with more attention to its audience ends of timebound and
> ephemeral.

I disagree.  Look at Curtis Mayfield, Bob Dylan, Bob Marley, Charles Mingus
etc.

> Great art transcends, and there is a very small
> audience for transcendence. To say that a given listener is the
> final determinant of the greatness of a piece of music may or may
> not be true depending on a lot of factors. In many cases the music
> is more of a 'judge' of the quality and evolution of the listener
> rather than the other way around. But, I'm trying to be careful
> not to make overgeneralizations.

Which is why you have to giuve a lot of leeway (and time) to the listenship.

> These issues are very complicated
> due to the complexity of the human organism and the inticracies of
> the interaction between human creation and the reception of human
> creation. In this age when we are trying so hard to be gracious
> and give everyone's opinions and tastes equal validity, we are in
> danger of legitimizing mediocrity.

"In danger of"? Hell, we've CERTIFIED it in this country.

> In the sciences, the experts
> are recognized as such, and the lay public has to work to develop
> the level of understanding required to grasp complicated concepts.
> In music, a trained and gifted composer deserves the same respect,
> and the same effort is required of the listener. If the listener
> is the final arbiter of what constitutes excellence, the composer
> will have to compose at a level beneath his or her talents and
> expertise to make sure the listener gets it.

I disagree.  the composer will, on the other hand, have to acknowedge that
maybe what he's doing is not for a big audience.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: duncan youngerman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: white trash
Date: 28 Mar 2002 20:57:04 +0100



Remco Takken a =E9crit :

> > >>
> > >> PS: "White trash" is an American specialty, right?
> > >>
> > >> -
> Mhm, in the present days of Le Pen, Haider and recently in my country
> Fortuyn, 'White Thrash' seems to be spread over europe too=2E
> Remco Takken
> -

White trash is a strictly American sociological thing, going back a
century at least=2E
It just means lower class whites, often from the South, in close contact
with blacks and therefore infused with much black musical culture=2E
Most of Rock'n roll was invented by white trash=2E Elvis, Cochran, Buddy
Holly, Everly bros=2E, Jerry Lee Lewis, etc=2E=2E
Artists as diverse as Johnny Winter, the Allman bros=2E, Springsteen, Dr
John, Jaco Pastorius, Stevie Ray Vaughan, the Ramones, Eminem have white
trash roots=2E
Some white trash might of course be racist or extreme rightist, but
probably a small minority=2E

D=2E




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: music defined (indeterminacy)
Date: 28 Mar 2002 12:12:33 -0800


On Thu, 28 Mar 2002 19:15:10 +0200  Oger wrote:
>
> Yes and no.
>
> As you said before, it is cultural loaded.
> What do you call organized sounds ? Harmony ? AABA ?
>
> I like very much listening to some sounds : for instance I know a
> place near the river Rhone (in France) where you can listen to a lot
> of sounds at the same time : water, people talking in remote places,
> animal sounds, train,.... For me it is music. I never heard that
> anywhere else, and of course not by musicians.
> The most amazing for me is during the night outside in summer (in
> southern France).
>
> Maybe many musicians, at the beginning, wanted to imitate the sounds
> they heard in nature.
> Think of people in african forests listening in the night. Musique concrete.
> Think of Beethoven with his 5th symphony. Abstract music. In that
> case, what is the composer's purpose ?

I think that we just disagree on the vocabulary. For me sounds, as pleasing
as they can be, are sounds and only become music when organized/processed.

Anyway, I don't believe that nature is a composer, maybe why I have a hard
time to deal with New Age people or other "mother nature" ones :-).

An another silly example, you can buy a video tape of a log burning in a
fireplace. I don't call that a movie.

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: music defined (indeterminacy)
Date: 28 Mar 2002 15:07:36 -0600

On Thu, Mar 28, 2002 at 12:12:33PM -0800, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:

> An another silly example, you can buy a video tape of a log burning in a
> fireplace. I don't call that a movie.

What would it take to make it a movie? At least one change of camera
angle?

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "s~Z" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: music defined (indeterminacy)
Date: 28 Mar 2002 12:18:53 -0800

>Art that is created
> with more attention to its audience ends of timebound and
> ephemeral.

>>>I disagree.  Look at Curtis Mayfield, Bob Dylan, Bob Marley,
Charles Mingus
etc.<<<

In my book you just listed several artists who transcend their
genres and put much less emphasis on audience then other artists
in their respective genres. Take Bob Dylan. His art transcends
whatever genre you pick, popular or folk, for example. He has
ended up with a sizeable audience but not because his voice, his
lyrics, or his music are composed with the audience reaction as a
high priority. And I don't have to pay $505 per ticket to see him,
like I would have to if I wanted to see the Who this summer.

>>>Which is why you have to giuve a lot of leeway (and time) to
the listenship.<<<

Right. Because the art requires something of the listener, and its
merits are often ahead of the audience's ability to appreciate it.

> If the listener
> is the final arbiter of what constitutes excellence, the
composer
> will have to compose at a level beneath his or her talents and
> expertise to make sure the listener gets it.

>>>I disagree.  the composer will, on the other hand, have to
acknowedge that
maybe what he's doing is not for a big audience.<<<

And what is it about his or her art that will make him or her
aware that it will not have a big audience?
And why does s/he create art knowing only a few will appreciate
it?


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "carlos torres" <[e-mail]>
Subject: purchasing an au pairs album
Date: 28 Mar 2002 12:38:48 -0800

does anyone know where i can purchase the au pairs "playing with a different
sex" cd. note i want the cd version with the extra tracks, not the Lp.
please contact me off-list. Many thanks for your help.

-ct

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: music defined (indeterminacy)
Date: 28 Mar 2002 15:34:10 -0600

On Thu, Mar 28, 2002 at 12:18:53PM -0800, s~Z wrote:

> In my book you just listed several artists who transcend their
> genres and put much less emphasis on audience then other artists
> in their respective genres. Take Bob Dylan. His art transcends
> whatever genre you pick, popular or folk, for example. He has
> ended up with a sizeable audience but not because his voice, his
> lyrics, or his music are composed with the audience reaction as a
> high priority. And I don't have to pay $505 per ticket to see him,
> like I would have to if I wanted to see the Who this summer.

Are you suggesting that the Who compose more for the audience than
Dylan does? On what basis?

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: music defined (indeterminacy)
Date: 28 Mar 2002 13:22:03 -0800

on 3/28/02 12:18 PM, s~Z at [e-mail] wrote:

>> Art that is created
>> with more attention to its audience ends of timebound and
>> ephemeral.
>
>>>> I disagree.  Look at Curtis Mayfield, Bob Dylan, Bob Marley,
> Charles Mingus
> etc.<<<
>
> In my book you just listed several artists who transcend their
> genres and put much less emphasis on audience then other artists
> in their respective genres. Take Bob Dylan. His art transcends
> whatever genre you pick, popular or folk, for example. He has
> ended up with a sizeable audience but not because his voice, his
> lyrics, or his music are composed with the audience reaction as a
> high priority. And I don't have to pay $505 per ticket to see him,
> like I would have to if I wanted to see the Who this summer.

I really have to disagree with "less emphasis on audience".  "The Times They
Are A-Changin'", "You Gotta Serve Somebody" etc are obviously written to
send up a clear signal to an audience.  So are "Keep On Pushin'",
"Trenchtown Rock", and "Free Cell Block F".

>>>> Which is why you have to giuve a lot of leeway (and time) to
> the listenship.<<<
>
> Right. Because the art requires something of the listener, and its
> merits are often ahead of the audience's ability to appreciate it.

Which is why so many things do not reveal themselves as art in the most
timely fashion.


> And what is it about his or her art that will make him or her
> aware that it will not have a big audience?
> And why does s/he create art knowing only a few will appreciate
> it?

That can be a lot of things.  Some (but not all) examples : Extended
emphasis on atonality, length of the piece, instrumentation, lack of vocals,
structure.  If you're doing things that are not already accepted by a large
audience, you're likely not going to appeal to a large audience.  That's the
choice people make when they go into the creative business.  A handul of
people have been able to get a sizable commercial audience for music that
doesn't work the norms -- Dylan, Phillip Glass, Zappa et al -- but they're
really exceptional to the point where you know better than to factor that
kind of commercial success into your plans.

As for why you do it, I only know why *I* do it, and I don't really speak
for anyone else.

skip h


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "s~Z" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: music defined (indeterminacy)
Date: 28 Mar 2002 13:20:32 -0800

>>>Are you suggesting that the Who compose more for the audience
than
Dylan does? On what basis?<<<

No, I'm suggesting if I want to see the Who this summer they
charge me $505
to get a decent seat, while I saw Dylan recently for $50. That's
all.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "s~Z" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: music defined (indeterminacy)
Date: 28 Mar 2002 13:30:13 -0800

>>>I really have to disagree with "less emphasis on audience".
"The Times They
Are A-Changin'", "You Gotta Serve Somebody" etc are obviously
written to
send up a clear signal to an audience.  So are "Keep On Pushin'",
"Trenchtown Rock", and "Free Cell Block F".<<<

So, if you disagree that Dylan places less emphasis on audience
than others in the singer/songwriter genre, who are you thinking
of that places less than Dylan. If I haven't already discovered
them, I want to find them soon. And if you think Dylan is sending
clear signals to an audience you haven't read many Dylan
interviews, nor discussed his lyrics with a number of people.
Clarity of signal is not his hallmark.

>>>As for why you do it, I only know why *I* do it, and I don't
really speak
for anyone else.<<<

Then you're the perfect person to answer the question. Why do you
do it?
What gratification comes from creating music that doesn't appeal
to a wide
audience, and you know that up front.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: William Crump <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: music defined (indeterminacy)
Date: 28 Mar 2002 15:53:09 -0600

Joseph Zitt wrote:

>>Take Bob Dylan. His art transcends
>>whatever genre you pick, popular or folk, for example. He has
>>ended up with a sizeable audience but not because his voice, his
>>lyrics, or his music are composed with the audience reaction as a
>>high priority. And I don't have to pay $505 per ticket to see him,
>>like I would have to if I wanted to see the Who this summer.
>>
>
>Are you suggesting that the Who compose more for the audience than
>Dylan does? On what basis?
>
Yeah, erm, this doesn't ring true for me either. I saw Dylan's show in
Tupelo a week before the Grammies and I felt he was as mindful of the
audience as any concert performer I've ever seen before, even though he
never spoke a word to the audience between songs. There's this thing the
band does before they leave the stage: they take off their guitars and
stand quietly on stage facing the audience for probably 20-30 seconds.
No hugging or congratulating each other on a good show, no grabassing
around, not even really smiling, just presenting themselves with a
slight bow, then "exeunt". This struck me as slightly unusual, so I was
glad they played two encores, and there it was again both times. Dylan
is the ultimate travelling troubadour, and this was a stronger thank-you
to, and appreciation of, the audience than anything else I could have
imagined. Certainly better than "thank you good night, nobody rocks like
Springfield!" etc.

I suspect that Dylan doesn't give two shits about an audience's
ADULATION, but I think it would be way off base to think that the
audience's ATTENTION is not important to him. I think there's a very
clear distinction there.

And I think it's cool that he's played bumfu -- uh, Tupelo --
Mississippi twice now in his career. Ohyeah, the tickets were $30 for
center floor.

William Crump



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: music defined (indeterminacy)
Date: 28 Mar 2002 14:11:16 -0800

on 3/28/02 1:30 PM, s~Z at [e-mail] wrote:

>>>> I really have to disagree with "less emphasis on audience".
> "The Times They
> Are A-Changin'", "You Gotta Serve Somebody" etc are obviously
> written to
> send up a clear signal to an audience.  So are "Keep On Pushin'",
> "Trenchtown Rock", and "Free Cell Block F".<<<
>
> So, if you disagree that Dylan places less emphasis on audience
> than others in the singer/songwriter genre, who are you thinking
> of that places less than Dylan. If I haven't already discovered
> them, I want to find them soon. And if you think Dylan is sending
> clear signals to an audience you haven't read many Dylan
> interviews, nor discussed his lyrics with a number of people.
> Clarity of signal is not his hallmark.

Clarity in interviews, no -- and I never got the feeling he really wanted to
bear his soul to an interviewer.  As for how much Dylan I've played,
discussed, and listened to, I'm in pretty good shape.

As to clarity within his lyric data, How could you be clearer than "Masters
Of War", "Jokerman", "Blind Willie McTell" etc? The guy definitely came out
of the Woody Guthrie tradition and has never gotten entirely away from it
(and bless him for that).  He can employ it devisely at will, play with it,
often enough ignore it, but he's very clear often enough that it's safe to
say he's clear as a bell when he wants to be.

As for songwriters who place less emphasis on direct communication, Terry
Allen leaps to mind (and is fantastic if you haven't checked him out),
certain periods of Joni Mitchell's work are definitely in that category
("Paprika Plains" is a gorgeous example of that), mid-80s Tom Waits often
has that quality, Captian Beefheart definitely, a goodly portion of John
Lennon, Stan Ridgway, John Doe & Exene Cervenka...
>
>>>> As for why you do it, I only know why *I* do it, and I don't
> really speak
> for anyone else.<<<
>
> Then you're the perfect person to answer the question. Why do you
> do it?
> What gratification comes from creating music that doesn't appeal
> to a wide
> audience, and you know that up front.

Remember, you asked.  Here are my own general reasons:

I like having an idea and seeing what happens when I chase it down.  It's
actually relaxing to me, the way crossword puzzles are for some people.

I like doing stuff I'm good at.  This leaves out building furniture.  I'm
good at music, and I am not above the satisfaction of a job well-done (nor
above beating myself up when I didn;t do the job as well I had intended).

Doing music is my taste, just as being a doctor might be someone else's.  My
father loves -- dearly -- doing mechanical things.  He likes engines.  I
like harmonies and rhythms.  When I hear the parts I wrote getting played
correctly, it's like hearing something come to life for me.

People pay me to do it and it beats people paying me to xerox things at
Kinko's.  I don't really have any other skills that could generate a decent
income.  Also, the size of the audience varies.  If I'm doing some music for
Dexter's Laboratory, there's a lot of people encoutering the music.  I'd
don't really interact with the audience, so the only satisfaction comes from
me and everyone else involved in putting the thing together liking the
music, and the paycheck.  I also really like doing music for animation.
It's a really satisfying challenge both as a composer and an ensemble
leader, and any job that gives you satisfaction consistently is a good job.
When a contemporary music ensemble calls me up and says "please write
something for this instrumentation", it's not for my group or anything else
of mine.  It's a commission, and I'm certainly honored to be asked.  But
it's first and foremost a job I accept in good faith and I do my best to
give them something they'll enjoy playing and that the audience will enjoy
hearing.


Bottom line -- in my heart of hearts, I enjoy it immensely, it gives me
great satisfaction more often than not, the rewards outweight the rewards
I'd find in any  other line of work I know how to do.  I don't really
address the questions of art because I have enough on my plate just trying
to get the music to sound good enough to satisfy my own taste.

skip h


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "s~Z" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: music defined (indeterminacy)
Date: 28 Mar 2002 14:18:11 -0800

>>>Bottom line -- in my heart of hearts, I enjoy it immensely, it
gives me
great satisfaction more often than not, the rewards outweight the
rewards
I'd find in any  other line of work I know how to do.  I don't
really
address the questions of art because I have enough on my plate
just trying
to get the music to sound good enough to satisfy my own taste.<<<

And the artists I enjoy the most talk like this. When I look
over my CD and record collections, the one common denominator
I find to the varied music, is that the artists are putting their
inner muse
as a higher priority than audience reception. And as much as I
love
Bob Dylan, I'll take Tom Waits over Bobby any day. And as much
as I love Tom Waits, I'll take Beefheart over Tom any day. And as
much as I love Beefheart, I'll take Schwitters over the Captain
any day.
And the choice is not because of anything other than the pleasure
I
feel when I hear what they do. But, when I look at that common
denominator, I find that the music that brings me the most
pleasure
is the music that isn't being made to please me.

Will you punch me out if I show up at your gig Sunday?




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "s~Z" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: music defined (indeterminacy)
Date: 28 Mar 2002 14:20:09 -0800

>>>Yeah, erm, this doesn't ring true for me either. I saw Dylan's
show in
Tupelo a week before the Grammies and I felt he was as mindful of
the
audience as any concert performer I've ever seen before, even
though he
never spoke a word to the audience between songs.<<<

But compared to The Who?

Just asking.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: music defined (indeterminacy)
Date: 28 Mar 2002 14:42:16 -0800


On Thu, 28 Mar 2002 15:07:36 -0600  Joseph Zitt wrote:
>
> On Thu, Mar 28, 2002 at 12:12:33PM -0800, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:
>
> > An another silly example, you can buy a video tape of a log burning in a
> > fireplace. I don't call that a movie.
>
> What would it take to make it a movie? At least one change of camera
> angle?

Not a lot, for sure. But in my mind this extra element is enough to
transform raw material to something that can apply for artistic recognition.

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "john schuller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zony Mash Returns
Date: 28 Mar 2002 14:45:41 -0800

<html><div style='background-color:'><DIV>
<P>I cannot wait for all of my Zony Mash this weekend. It is a true blessing to live in Seattle.<BR><STRONG><EM>JMS </EM></STRONG></P></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://www.johnschuller.da.ru/"><EM><FONT color=#000000>http://www.johnschuller.da.ru</FONT></EM></A></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://www.mp3.com/worldmisery"><EM><FONT color=#000000>http://www.mp3.com/worldmisery</FONT></EM></A></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 11:20:56 -0800<BR>From: "Toby Dodds" <<A target=_top href="http://lw9fd.law9.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/compose?curmbox=F000000001&a=29623e1ba11b8f2b6340542ddf0a726b&mailto=1&to=[e-mail]&msg=MSG1017345251.68&start=501208&len=22809&src=&type=x"><FONT color=#000099>[e-mail]</FONT></A>><BR>Subject: Re: Zony Mash returns<BR><BR>- ----- Original Message -----<BR>From: "Arthur Gadney" <<A target=_top href="http://lw9fd.law9.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/compose?curmbox=F000000001&a=29623e1ba11b8f2b6340542ddf0a726b&mailto=1&to=[e-mail]&msg=MSG1017345251.68&start=501208&len=22809&src=&type=x"><FONT color=#000099>[e-mail]</FONT></A>><BR>To: <<A target=_top href="http://lw9fd.law9.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/compose?curmbox=F000000001&a=29623e1ba11b8f2b6340542ddf0a726b&mailto=1&to=[e-mail]&msg=MSG1017345251.68&start=501208&len=22809&src=&type=x"><FONT color=#000099>[e-mail]</FONT></A>>; <<A target=_top href="http://lw9fd.law9.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/compose?curmbox=F000000001&a=29623e1ba11b8f2b6340542ddf0a726b&mailto=1&to=[e-mail]&msg=MSG1017345251.68&start=501208&len=22809&src=&type=x"><FONT color=#000099>[e-mail]</FONT></A>><BR>Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2002 2:37 AM<BR>Subject: Re: Zony Mash returns<BR><BR>> Yes, what about Wayne Horvitz. What's he up to? He was always my least<BR>> favorite Naked City member. Has he done any good stuff since? I like 4+1<BR>> alot, but Zony Mash is horrible.<BR><BR><BR>I'm too exhausted from seeing yet another fantastic Zony Mash concert last<BR>night to comment.<BR><BR>"You're either with us or against us."  :-T<BR></DIV></div><br clear=all><hr>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at <a href='http://g.msn.com/1HM305401/13'>http://explorer.msn.com</a>.<br></html>

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Ricardo=20Campillo?= <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: What is music?
Date: 28 Mar 2002 23:52:17 +0100 (CET)


> Music: sounds qualified as improper for usage in
> Musique Concrete.
>
> Color: visual illusion due to the limited spectral
> resolution of
> human beings.
>
>     Patrice.
I know, the definition of music is something very
abstract, but I think that any sound can be music, and
separate the music and the no-music is something
impossible.When the sound starts to be music?
Someone says that is order the sound and silences, i
think this is montage.

Sorry, my english is very limited, but this is my
opinion.

Regards for everybody.Ric.


_______________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Messenger
Comunicaci≤n instantßnea gratis con tu gente.
http://messenger.yahoo.es

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Herb Levy <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: music defined (indeterminacy)
Date: 28 Mar 2002 16:55:34 -0600

skip Heller <[e-mail]> wrote:
>
>on 3/28/02 8:32 AM, s~Z at [e-mail] wrote:
>
>  > In the sciences, the experts
>  > are recognized as such, and the lay public has to work to develop
>  > the level of understanding required to grasp complicated concepts.
>  > In music, a trained and gifted composer deserves the same respect,
>  > and the same effort is required of the listener. If the listener
>  > is the final arbiter of what constitutes excellence, the composer
>  > will have to compose at a level beneath his or her talents and
>  > expertise to make sure the listener gets it.
>
>I disagree.  the composer will, on the other hand, have to acknowedge that
>maybe what he's doing is not for a big audience.

Which is what scientists do.

Note that this is basically the argument that Milton Babbitt made in
the famous article that was provocatively titled by its copy editor
(not by Babbitt) "Who Cares If You Listen?", that composers of
"serious" music may be primarily writing for each other and others
who have taken the time to learn the arcana, rather than a wider
audience who often don't care about the distinctions being made by
people working in the field.

Bests,

Herb
--
Herb Levy
P O Box 9369
Fort Worth, TX  76147

[e-mail]

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: music defined (indeterminacy)
Date: 28 Mar 2002 15:13:19 -0800


On Thu, 28 Mar 2002 16:55:34 -0600  Herb Levy wrote:
>
> Which is what scientists do.
>
> Note that this is basically the argument that Milton Babbitt made in
> the famous article that was provocatively titled by its copy editor
> (not by Babbitt) "Who Cares If You Listen?", that composers of
> "serious" music may be primarily writing for each other and others
> who have taken the time to learn the arcana, rather than a wider
> audience who often don't care about the distinctions being made by
> people working in the field.

As long as they don't whine to get their paycheck paid by the masses,
that's fine with me.

    Patrice.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: music defined (indeterminacy)
Date: 28 Mar 2002 15:31:35 -0800

on 3/28/02 2:18 PM, s~Z at [e-mail] wrote:

>>>> Bottom line -- in my heart of hearts, I enjoy it immensely, it
> gives me
> great satisfaction more often than not, the rewards outweight the
> rewards
> I'd find in any  other line of work I know how to do.  I don't
> really
> address the questions of art because I have enough on my plate
> just trying
> to get the music to sound good enough to satisfy my own taste.<<<
>
> And the artists I enjoy the most talk like this. When I look
> over my CD and record collections, the one common denominator
> I find to the varied music, is that the artists are putting their
> inner muse
> as a higher priority than audience reception.


Don't get me wrong.  I'm in business for the audience.  If you pay your
money, you deserve the best job I can give you.  OTTH, don't bitch at me if
you come in not knowing what service I'm providing.  I'm not there to make
people line dance.

If I record something and put it out, I am indeed putting a premium on the
notion that I want to communicate something.  I don't know how I feel about
the audience reaction per se, but I know I want to make an idea known.  And
I want it to be understood.




> And as much as I
> love
> Bob Dylan, I'll take Tom Waits over Bobby any day. And as much
> as I love Tom Waits, I'll take Beefheart over Tom any day. And as
> much as I love Beefheart, I'll take Schwitters over the Captain
> any day.
> And the choice is not because of anything other than the pleasure
> I
> feel when I hear what they do. But, when I look at that common
> denominator, I find that the music that brings me the most
> pleasure
> is the music that isn't being made to please me.
>
Your option.  But I think it does matter to you that you're pleased by these
people, and I'm pretty sure it matters to them that somebody's pleased and
that they can pay their rent this way.

sh


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "gorilla thing" <[e-mail]>
Subject: why is music needed?
Date: 28 Mar 2002 15:33:37 -0800

Curious to you thoughts on why music is needed in our lives or do we
actually need it.
I know that music, early on was used to communicate and still does but as I
look at my stack of cd's sometime I wonder why it really is necessary to
have them. As one person posted early, why can't the inspiration of sitting
next to river suffice me all the time.
I'm really not looking for answers of emotion: "because it makes me feel
good" or "I work better when I have music on" but something a little deeper.
For me, it seems its diffently used to transcend a point of understanding,
as a metaphor is to an audience.

I was curious since your our on the subject of 'what music is'
I thought I'd also add why do you think we 'need' it.

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Perfect Sound Forever <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: music defined (indeterminacy)
Date: 28 Mar 2002 18:40:51 -0500


>Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 14:11:16 -0800
>From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
>
>As for songwriters who place less emphasis on direct communication, Terry
>Allen leaps to mind (and is fantastic if you haven't checked him out)

I second this recommendation- Allen is indeed a great songwriter. (sorry,
not very Zorn-ish content here).  I would question that he's not direct
though.  What makes his work so powerful is that it's so damn un-subtle:
compare that with his Lubbock buddies like Jimmie Dale Gilmore and Butch
Hancock who do very powerful work indeed by focusing more on spiritual
matters than on 'human' detail.

Best,
Jason

Perfect Sound Forever
online music magazine
[e-mail]
http://www.furious.com/perfect


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: William Crump <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: music defined (indeterminacy)
Date: 28 Mar 2002 17:44:17 -0600

The only Who show I ever saw was with Kenn(e)y Jones, so yeah, Dylan
stands up pretty well against them..
Wm.C

s~Z wrote:

>>>>Yeah, erm, this doesn't ring true for me either. I saw Dylan's
>>>>
>show in
>Tupelo a week before the Grammies and I felt he was as mindful of
>the
>audience as any concert performer I've ever seen before, even
>though he
>never spoke a word to the audience between songs.<<<
>
>But compared to The Who?
>
>Just asking.
>
>
>-
>
>



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Zachary Steiner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: why is music needed?
Date: 28 Mar 2002 18:58:13 -0500

I've always found that music helps me transcend my current time and
place and for a short while I'm in a place of euphoria that is rarely
found in other pursuits (at least for me).  The feeling of having a
group of musicians (either when you are a part of it or observing it)
completely gel, even if it is for song or a part of song, is one of the
purest forms of communion between people.  It is definitely spiritual in
nature and you come from it with greater understanding about yourself
and the world in general.  Music to me is often like meditation, there
is an altered state that you go into when you are experiencing truly
great music that speaks to you.  I've experienced this both as a player
and as a listener.  It is truly amazing.

On the other hand, I like music because it has a good beat and you can
dance to it...

Zach



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: why is music needed?
Date: 28 Mar 2002 19:15:21 EST


--part1_d5.151c07c9.29d50c19_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hello all.
This isn't as much the answer as an observation but here it goes.  Music has
been around since the dawn of civilization and has played a role regardless
of religion, sex, sexual orientation, crete, culture, etc...  It has crossed
every boundry possible (and some that were thought to be impossible).  It can
cause any kind of emotional reaction or none at all.  It can be calming or
naseuiating.  Yet it doesn't perform either of the to basic needs that a
species require (survival and procreation).  (I know that musicians and
singers, just kidding, use music as a means to an end for survival and use
you're imagination for the latter but as a whole it is not need).  Also
Reeves Gabriels has made the argument that sound is vibrations and one's body
is filled with viberating atoms.  Cage may agree that we are music?  And the
rest of the animal kingdom can also be music (listen to the complex phrasing
of whales or various birds perform Messian licks or a goose sound like
Anthony Braxton's For Alto).  And if rhythm is an integral part of music
(time art) then motion and time in and of themselves are music.  I can't
honestly think of a way to not have music (except in death pending on what
one's beliefs are).

Peace to All and happy holidays
Aaron Solomon

--part1_d5.151c07c9.29d50c19_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"><FONT  SIZE=2>Hello all.
<BR>This isn't as much the answer as an observation but here it goes.  Music has been around since the dawn of civilization and has played a role regardless of religion, sex, sexual orientation, crete, culture, etc...  It has crossed every boundry possible (and some that were thought to be impossible).  It can cause any kind of emotional reaction or none at all.  It can be calming or naseuiating.  Yet it doesn't perform either of the to basic needs that a species require (survival and procreation).  (I know that musicians and singers, just kidding, use music as a means to an end for survival and use you're imagination for the latter but as a whole it is not need).  Also Reeves Gabriels has made the argument that sound is vibrations and one's body is filled with viberating atoms.  Cage may agree that we are music?  And the rest of the animal kingdom can also be music (listen to the complex phrasing of whales or various birds perform Messian licks or a goose sound like Anthony Braxton's For Alto).  And if rhythm is an integral part of music (time art) then motion and time in and of themselves are music.  I can't honestly think of a way to not have music (except in death pending on what one's beliefs are).
<BR>
<BR>Peace to All and happy holidays
<BR>Aaron Solomon       </FONT></HTML>

--part1_d5.151c07c9.29d50c19_boundary--

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: why is music needed?
Date: 28 Mar 2002 16:23:59 -0800

because people need a way to blow off the steam and shake off the cobwebs.
On a common sense level, music is likely counter-productive.  It distracts
you from other stuff, like making money (unless you get paid to listen to
music), and tending to your chores.

On the other hand, if all we had was work and chores, we'd all go postal.
You need music and the other forms of similar creative entertainment to keep
you sane.

Of course, you might likely require different musics for different
occasions.  If you're trying to get over with a young lady, Teddy
Pendergrass might be more conducive than, say, Tim Berne (unless you're
really lucky).  If you're trying to dream, something else entirely is in
order (Debussy is a good one).  Maybe you're trying to find out what people
in other parts of the world are up to, be it Compton or Korea.  Or maybe
you're just bored and/or lonely and need something with which you can
identify (and wasn't punk rock all about that?).  Music provides all these
services and then some.  It can fire up your brain or help it to shut down
for a while.

No one set answer, except to say that time is like a wall -- if you don't
decorate it with something, it's drab and is maddening to concentrate on,
and human beings don't function their best in drab conditions.

skip h


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: music defined (indeterminacy)
Date: 28 Mar 2002 20:20:20 -0600

On Thu, Mar 28, 2002 at 02:42:16PM -0800, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:
>
> On Thu, 28 Mar 2002 15:07:36 -0600  Joseph Zitt wrote:
> >
> > On Thu, Mar 28, 2002 at 12:12:33PM -0800, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:
> >
> > > An another silly example, you can buy a video tape of a log burning in a
> > > fireplace. I don't call that a movie.
> >
> > What would it take to make it a movie? At least one change of camera
> > angle?
>
> Not a lot, for sure. But in my mind this extra element is enough to
> transform raw material to something that can apply for artistic recognition.

"apply for artistic recognition"? Just what the arts need: more
faceless bureaucracy.


--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: music defined (indeterminacy)
Date: 28 Mar 2002 17:32:51 -0800


On Thu, 28 Mar 2002 20:20:20 -0600  Joseph Zitt wrote:
>
> >
> > Not a lot, for sure. But in my mind this extra element is enough to
> > transform raw material to something that can apply for artistic recognition.
>
> "apply for artistic recognition"? Just what the arts need: more
> faceless bureaucracy.

Faceless bureaucracy or unconditional cheerleading, make your choice :-).

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "William York" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: White trash
Date: 29 Mar 2002 01:38:05

I do not wish to provoke any sort of extended intellectual debate here, but
a few quick things:

Jim Goad's "The Redneck Manifesto" is an excellent, thought-provoking book
that deals with the subject of "white trash." I would read that before
making any type of sweeping comment about this complicated subject, whether
you are from the U.S. or not.

>White trash is a strictly American sociological thing, going back a
>century at least. It just means lower class whites, often from the >South,
>in close contact with blacks and therefore infused with much >black musical
>culture.

Actually, not necessarily in close contact with blacks, although in some
cases, yes.

>Most of Rock'n roll was invented by white trash=2E Elvis, Cochran, >Buddy
>Holly, Everly bros=2E, Jerry Lee Lewis, etc=2E=2E
>Artists as diverse as Johnny Winter, the Allman bros=2E, Springsteen, >Dr
>John, Jaco Pastorius, Stevie Ray Vaughan, the Ramones, Eminem have >white
>trash roots.

Also, Goad makes the point (and I agree after reading the entire book) that
saying "white trash" over and over (assuming the person saying it isn't from
that type of lower-class white background) could be compared to saying
"niggers" or "kikes" over and over again. Not a great thing to say.

>Some white trash might of course be racist or extreme rightist, but
>probably a small minority.

Middle and upper-class whites, Jews, blacks, Muslims, etc., can of course
also be racist or politically extreme...

WY


_________________________________________________________________
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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: music defined (indeterminacy)
Date: 28 Mar 2002 20:41:30 -0600

On Thu, Mar 28, 2002 at 05:32:51PM -0800, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:
>
> On Thu, 28 Mar 2002 20:20:20 -0600  Joseph Zitt wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Not a lot, for sure. But in my mind this extra element is enough to
> > > transform raw material to something that can apply for artistic recognition.
> >
> > "apply for artistic recognition"? Just what the arts need: more
> > faceless bureaucracy.
>
> Faceless bureaucracy or unconditional cheerleading, make your choice :-).

Given a choice between disdain and joy, I choose joy.

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jim Flannery <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Melville
Date: 28 Mar 2002 18:42:17 -0800

[e-mail] wrote:
>=20
> [e-mail] writes:
> >>
> >>He's one of the first examples of the artist who refused to be=20
> >>roped in by the demands of his audience.
>
> What about Michael Jackson?

Wow, Michael Jackson predates Herman Melville? That *is* some kinda
plastic surgery I guess.

--=20
Jim Flannery                                           [e-mail]

         "When I say =91no=92 I=92m always right and when I say =91yes=92=
=20
          I=92m almost always wrong."
                                           -- Dwight Macdonald

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "s~Z" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: music defined (indeterminacy)
Date: 28 Mar 2002 20:11:39 -0800

>>>Don't get me wrong.  I'm in business for the audience.  If you
pay your
money, you deserve the best job I can give you.  OTTH, don't bitch
at me if
you come in not knowing what service I'm providing.  I'm not there
to make
people line dance. <<<

But in our discussion you place a very high priority on the
audience. When you speak as a composer, and tell me what the
bottom line is.....not one word, nor implication regarding any
audience.

>>>If I record something and put it out, I am indeed putting a
premium on the
notion that I want to communicate something.  I don't know how I
feel about
the audience reaction per se, but I know I want to make an idea
known.  And
I want it to be understood.>>>

What's an example of an idea you are trying to get across by a
piece of your music?

>>>Your option.  But I think it does matter to you that you're
pleased by these
people,<<<

It matters a lot.

>>>and I'm pretty sure it matters to them that somebody's pleased
and
that they can pay their rent this way.<<<

I know a LOT of serious musicians who cannot pay the rent via
their compositions and performances. Would they they be pleased if
they could? Big time. Do they alter their art to get the rent
paid? No.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: music defined (indeterminacy)
Date: 28 Mar 2002 21:42:22 -0800

on 3/28/02 8:11 PM, s~Z at [e-mail] wrote:

>>>> Don't get me wrong.  I'm in business for the audience.  If you
> pay your
> money, you deserve the best job I can give you.  OTTH, don't bitch
> at me if
> you come in not knowing what service I'm providing.  I'm not there
> to make
> people line dance. <<<
>
> But in our discussion you place a very high priority on the
> audience. When you speak as a composer, and tell me what the
> bottom line is.....not one word, nor implication regarding any
> audience.

I meant the bottom line for my doing it.  When I put it out there and charge
money for it, I'm assuming another responsibility entirely.  But I assume
the consumer is educated enough not to be disappointed if I'm not doing
general pop music or jazz out of the Real Book.  That's not the service I
provide, nor have I ever purported to.
>
>>>> If I record something and put it out, I am indeed putting a
> premium on the
> notion that I want to communicate something.  I don't know how I
> feel about
> the audience reaction per se, but I know I want to make an idea
> known.  And
> I want it to be understood.>>>
>
> What's an example of an idea you are trying to get across by a
> piece of your music?

One example -- if I write a piece of music to commemorate another artist,
like Rahsaan Roland Kirk for instance, I want people to hear the music and
know what I respond to about him.  I've been writing a fair amount of music
that way lately.


> I know a LOT of serious musicians who cannot pay the rent via
> their compositions and performances. Would they they be pleased if
> they could? Big time. Do they alter their art to get the rent
> paid? No.
>
Me too.  I'm lucky -- I haven't had to alter the way I do things when I work
for other people.  But I see that as a stroke of good fortune, not as
something I earned ahead of anybody else.  I know a guy who pumps gas for a
living and is one of the most amazing be-bop guitarists I ever heard in my
life.  Fair isn't always in the picture.  Sadly.  Otherwise award shows
would be much more palatable.

sh


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "josephneff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Melville
Date: 29 Mar 2002 02:23:29 -0500

Kurt,
     ...touch=E9. What I was thinking, and didn't write, was "one of the =
first
examples of the artist in American Lit....". Pretty big omission, I know.
    While we're on the subject, a while back Jim Flannery was reading "Wiela=
nd"
by Charles Brockden Brown. Care to give a short opinion Jim? The guy didn=
't
even get a mention in my Survey of American Lit. class. I know his
historical importance, but how's the reading?

Just trying to learn more about art,

Joseph

NP: Arnett Cobb- "Arnett Blows for 1300" CD
NR: Flannery O'Connor- "Wise Blood"

-----Original Message-----
[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Kurt Gottschalk
Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2002 12:34 PM


>>>he's one of the first examples of the artist who refused to be roped i=
n
>>>by the demands of his audience.

wow, joseph -- you must know a lot about art! i didn't know ancient chine=
se
printmakers, early indian composers, j.s. bach or cavedwellers drawing on
walls were so beholden to the masses! [little smiley winky emoticon thing=
y]

kg

_________________________________________________________________
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p.


-


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: why do we need music
Date: 29 Mar 2002 08:51:25 +0000

In answer to the question, go without anything from your music collection
for fifteen months and see how you react.  When I first went to Asia, that's
what I had to do, and I can't describe the joy I felt when I got back to my
collection and started listening to it again.  I vowed it would never happen
again as long as I live.  If you can't do such a thing, try using your
imagination.

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: white trash
Date: 29 Mar 2002 08:55:36 +0000

I've always thought this designation was by, mostly, American whites for
American whites who exhibited, in word or action, signs of bigotry and
racism toward other races.  That such people may have come from the lower
classes of society was relatively beside the point.

_________________________________________________________________
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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: duncan youngerman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: white trash
Date: 29 Mar 2002 11:03:41 +0100



Bill Ashline a =E9crit :

> I've always thought this designation was by, mostly, American whites for
> American whites who exhibited, in word or action, signs of bigotry and
> racism toward other races=2E  That such people may have come from the lowe=
r
> classes of society was relatively beside the point=2E

I beg to differ (see my note)=2E=2E=2E
Will our in-house Man of the people and American socio-cultural authority  -=
-
yes, Skip, that's you-- speak up on this matter?

D=2E



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Theo Klaase <[e-mail]>
Subject: Frisell
Date: 29 Mar 2002 03:44:07 -0800 (PST)

    Come on now we're all being a bit hard on Frisell,
aye?  I mean that last album with Dave Holland and
Elvins Jones was super.  Granted I didn't like "Blues
Dream," but "Good dog, happy man," had some amazing
moments.  Of course, I do miss his more experimental
stuff like "Before we were born," "Where in the
world," and "Is that you," along with the Live album
with Joey and Kermit.
    Frisell is still my favorite guitarist but I
agree, his latest album coming out sounds like it'll
be a bore.  I don't like that country twang shit...

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Greetings - send holiday greetings for Easter, Passover
http://greetings.yahoo.com/

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Theo Klaase <[e-mail]>
Subject: Zony Mash
Date: 29 Mar 2002 03:45:59 -0800 (PST)

   ...and lastly, why would anyone break up a great
band like Pigpen to form Zony Mash?  Pigpen did some
wonderful things, namely "V as in Victim" and "Miss
Ann."


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Greetings - send holiday greetings for Easter, Passover
http://greetings.yahoo.com/

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Vincent Kargatis / Anne Larson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: why is music needed?
Date: 29 Mar 2002 15:39:53 +0200

> From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
> If you're trying to get over with a young lady, Teddy
> Pendergrass might be more conducive than, say, Tim Berne (unless you're
> really lucky).

Hm, the idea of a young lady who "gets over" by listening to Tim Berne.
That's practically masturbation material right there...  What does she look
like? :-)

I quite like getting action to "weird" music, but unfortunately my wife's
not crazy about it.  We had sex to the soundtrack to NAKED LUNCH once, but
she generally thought it was just too spooky.

As far as why I need music, probably two reasons:
1) For whatever reasons, I responded to music well very young, and my
parents often got me out of their hair by putting headphones (playing music,
of course) on me, after which I'd evidently be a happy camper for a while.
This could easily have affected my still pliable brain chemistry, in the
same sense that language learning does.  (Just speculating, of course -
don't know exactly when brain plasticity drops off heavily).
2) I've listened to so much music so constantly for most of my life, I'm
psychologically conditioned and probably addicted to it.  When I go without
music for even a few hours, I start humming unconsciously, and after a
weekend getaway without music reproduction equipment, say, I'm pretty much
dying for a fix by the time I return.

I'm sure there are other factors (deep, metaphysical, philosophical ones),
but those raw facts probably are sufficient explanation, and it saves me
from having to think about those others.
--
Vincent Kargatis
np: Solex - "Solex In A Slipshod Style"  (Solex Vs. The Hitmeister)



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Marcel Kranendonk" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Antw: Zony Mash returns
Date: 29 Mar 2002 16:29:34 -0800

Zony Mash (the electric version) played in Utrecht on sunday march 18.
This concert (a great show!!) was recorded by VPRO-radio and will be
broadcast in may or june.
This broadcast also available in real-audio on the VPRO-site in may or june:
http://www.vpro.nl/programma/jazzopvier

Marcel
----------
>Van: "Toby Dodds" <[e-mail]>
>Aan: <[e-mail]>
>Onderwerp: Zony Mash returns
>Datum: woe, 27 maa 2002 13:29
>

> Zony Mash are back!  Go to www.waynehorvitz.com for the dirt.  Did anyone
> see them/record them in Europe?
>
>
> -
>

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: white trash
Date: 29 Mar 2002 08:39:19 -0800

on 3/29/02 2:03 AM, duncan youngerman at [e-mail] wrote:

>=20
>=20
> Bill Ashline a =E9crit :
>=20
>> I've always thought this designation was by, mostly, American whites for
>> American whites who exhibited, in word or action, signs of bigotry and
>> racism toward other races.  That such people may have come from the lowe=
r
>> classes of society was relatively beside the point.
>=20
> I beg to differ (see my note)...
> Will our in-house Man of the people and American socio-cultural authority=
  --
> yes, Skip, that's you-- speak up on this matter?
>=20
> D.
>=20
Actually, I fit squarely into the "white trash" demographic.  I'm not gonna
be the most objective guy on this topic.  I come from a low-middle-class
background, went to high a school that could have been the prototype for
WAYNE'S WORLD, never went to college, drank an awful lot of beer (until I
cut out alcohol entirely), listen to country music, worked in factories, an=
d
all that good stuff.  Do I know my share of "white trash" racists? yes.  Do
I know racists from other backgrounds? Any white guy in Philly who played
jazz for money was going to see that (and, even more predominantly, ageism)
up close.  Do I know my share of "white trash" folks who object strenuously
to racism? Tons.  Do I laugh at Jeff Foxworthy? Often enough.

I agree with John Water -- that it's the only PC racial epithet left to
throw around.

sh=20


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Frisell
Date: 29 Mar 2002 08:43:55 -0800

on 3/29/02 3:44 AM, Theo Klaase at [e-mail] wrote:

> Come on now we're all being a bit hard on Frisell,
> aye?  I mean that last album with Dave Holland and
> Elvins Jones was super.  Granted I didn't like "Blues
> Dream," but "Good dog, happy man," had some amazing
> moments.  Of course, I do miss his more experimental
> stuff like "Before we were born," "Where in the
> world," and "Is that you," along with the Live album
> with Joey and Kermit.
> Frisell is still my favorite guitarist but I
> agree, his latest album coming out sounds like it'll
> be a bore.  I don't like that country twang shit...

I do, and a lot, but Frisell's take on it is, for me, unexciting.

I also thought the Holland/Elvin record was sort of drab.  It never got up
and walked around on its own legs.  And I feel asleep the first time I heard
GOOD DOG.

The last one that floored me was THIS LAND.  Still my favorite, along with
the live trio disc of him and Joey & Kermit.

sh


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "josephneff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: white trash
Date: 29 Mar 2002 12:23:33 -0500

Hello,
      ...not to say that the term "white trash" isn't used in the way you
mention by someone somewhere, but I've always heard it used by whites at the
expense of other whites who are usually very poor, uneducated, and open in
their lack of refinement (car in the yard up on blocks, dirty clothes, skin,
or hair, bad teeth). The users of the term are quite often lower middle
class. It is quite often a way for people to deflect/pass on class scorn. If
the woman at the grocery store feels that a guy was passing judgment on her
noisy kids and her battered '88 Lincoln Continental, her animosity might
eventually be directed toward that family at the end of the street who drink
beer on a couch in their yard and still have the X-mas lights up in
mid-July. Much as I would like to have never been party to this stuff, I
have, mostly through distant relatives and co-workers.
    A great example of this mindset in action would be Flannery O'Connor's
short story "Revelation".

I remain...

Joseph

NP: Guy Klucesvek- "Manhattan Cascade" CD
NR: Flannery O'Connor- "Wise Blood"

-----Original Message-----
[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Bill Ashline
Sent: Friday, March 29, 2002 3:56 AM


I've always thought this designation was by, mostly, American whites for
American whites who exhibited, in word or action, signs of bigotry and
racism toward other races.  That such people may have come from the lower
classes of society was relatively beside the point.

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


-


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: white trash
Date: 29 Mar 2002 09:18:12 -0800


On Fri, 29 Mar 2002 08:55:36 +0000  "Bill Ashline" wrote:
>
> I've always thought this designation was by, mostly, American whites for
> American whites who exhibited, in word or action, signs of bigotry and
> racism toward other races.  That such people may have come from the lower
> classes of society was relatively beside the point.

That's really weird to read that because it does not match at all the
few times I heard the expression used. I never remember the issue of
racism being ever raised in these few cases.

"white trash", in my understanding, can be fairly well described by
simply opening an issue of the NATIONAL INQUIRER.

And since John Waters still dreams of being featured in the NATIONAL
ENQUIRER, I am not surpised at his statement :-).

    Patrice (wondering if we are living in the same country).

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zony Mash
Date: 29 Mar 2002 09:29:05 -0800


On Fri, 29 Mar 2002 03:45:59 -0800 (PST)  Theo Klaase wrote:
>
>    ...and lastly, why would anyone break up a great
> band like Pigpen to form Zony Mash?  Pigpen did some
> wonderful things, namely "V as in Victim" and "Miss
> Ann."

One of the main reasons what Briggan moving to NY. I also remember Wayne
getting tired at it.

Now your judgement surprises me since I have seen both bands many times (I
live not far from Seattle), and they are quite incredible. I was also sad of
the demise of Pigpen, but after the first concert of Zony Mash, I put my
handkerchief in my pocket.

One thing that is worth mentioning concerning Zony Mash is their ability to
really stretch any of their compositions. This is definitely not apparent in
their records and may be the reason of your critic. Pigpen was Horvitz' band
to play in rock clubs (since this is what Seattle is famous for). I guess
that moving to Seattle in the early 90's might have been hard from a playing
point of view. With Pigpen he started to get involved with the local scene
and this jumpstarted many of his collaborations. I also feel that Pigpen
records are more representative of the band performances than Zony Mash.

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: duncan youngerman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: white trash
Date: 01 Jan 2002 03:31:31 +0100

What about the great music that's come out of "white trash" (from Elvis to Eminem
by way of such varied people as Janis Joplin, Dr John, Johnny Cash, the Allman
bros., Jaco Pastorius, Stevie Ray Vaughan, the Ramones or Nirvana) from its close
relations to lower-class black society and music? And the contradiction of that
fact with the blanket assimilation of white trash with bigotery.
Not only does a large segment of "white trash" population identify with blacks,
but they often don't seem to know that they're not black!
D.

>
> >
> Actually, I fit squarely into the "white trash" demographic.  I'm not gonna
> be the most objective guy on this topic.  I come from a low-middle-class
> background, went to high a school that could have been the prototype for
> WAYNE'S WORLD, never went to college, drank an awful lot of beer (until I
> cut out alcohol entirely), listen to country music, worked in factories, and
> all that good stuff.  Do I know my share of "white trash" racists? yes.  Do
> I know racists from other backgrounds? Any white guy in Philly who played
> jazz for money was going to see that (and, even more predominantly, ageism)
> up close.  Do I know my share of "white trash" folks who object strenuously
> to racism? Tons.  Do I laugh at Jeff Foxworthy? Often enough.
>
> I agree with John Water -- that it's the only PC racial epithet left to
> throw around.
>
> sh


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: white trash
Date: 29 Mar 2002 10:02:55 -0800

on 2/6/40 12:59 AM, duncan youngerman at [e-mail] wrote:

> What about the great music that's come out of "white trash" (from Elvis to
> Eminem
> by way of such varied people as Janis Joplin, Dr John, Johnny Cash, the Allman
> bros., Jaco Pastorius, Stevie Ray Vaughan, the Ramones or Nirvana) from its
> close
> relations to lower-class black society and music? And the contradiction of
> that
> fact with the blanket assimilation of white trash with bigotery.
> Not only does a large segment of "white trash" population identify with
> blacks,
> but they often don't seem to know that they're not black!
> D.
>
>>
People without a lot of money and influence in America often have two things
in common:

1. They identify with each other, to varying degrees.  Example -- the
Italian kids in South Philly when I was growing up listened exclusively to
black music (except Sinatra and Martin).  Why? Because going to schooldances
was the only economically feasible social gathering option, especially one
with potentially sexual consequences.  Boston, Led Zep, or whatever other
corpo rock didn't figure in, because it wasn't dancable, and therefore
offered no opportunities to mingle with the opposite sex.  This rendered
that stuff useless to those guys.  The R&B of the time was extremely black
(espec P-Funk), but, since the Italian guys had social dancing (and the
music that comes with it) as such a huge part of their lifestyle, it gave
them avenues of black culture with which they could relate (another reason
we need music, by the way).

2. Poor people in the USA are lumped together.  When you hear about "the
underpriveledged" and how education needs to be improved for them, it's
usually in the context of some kinds of sweeping generalization.  But I've
noticed that the sons and daughters of coal miners in Harlan County have
different challenges facing them than kids in Compton.  The tools they'll
need to make better lives for themselves differ.  This could needlessly tip
off a big discussion about the death of regionalism in America, but the
point is the same.  Balck, white, brown -- it doesn't matter what color you
are.  Power in America responds to green.  As Woody Guthrie reminded us,
"you won;t find it so hot/if you ain't got the do-re-mi".  If you ain't got
it, your problems as individuals will not be taken care of.  You're just
part of a big group with no power.

sh


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: white trash
Date: 29 Mar 2002 18:03:35 +0000



    Patrice (wondering if we are living in the same country).
-------------------

Well, I'm guessing Patrice that you are a French expat living in the states.
  I, on the other hand, am an American expat living in Korea.  That must
literally mean we aren't living in the same country.  But maybe you
understand the term better than I.  Toqueville didn't do too bad either for
a French analyst of the states.



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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "gorilla thing" <[e-mail]>
Subject: why is music needed?
Date: 29 Mar 2002 10:33:19 -0800

>------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 08:51:25 +0000 From:
>"Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]> Subject: Re: why do we need music In
>answer to the question, go without anything from your music collection for
>fifteen months and see how you react. When I first went to Asia, that's
>what I had to do, and I can't describe the joy I felt when I got back to my
>collection and started listening to it again. I vowed it would never happen
>again as long as I live. If you can't do such a thing, try using your
>imagination<


That is how the question arose from a week long camping trip w/ out any
electrics and even by the first night we were singing songs we grow up w/
and by the end up the trips lyrics were buzzing in our heads like mad.
I mean even monks "Uhm".

Chad
I don't know really if the brain just likes to be lullaby or what, but there
seems to be something deep down beyond our understanding that we, for the
most part get hooked on music in such a way that it efforts us so much. I've
never really found a answer that I've been happy w/.



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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Zony Mash
Date: 29 Mar 2002 18:47:36 +0000

I second that - the Zony Mash studio CDs are great from
a technical point of view.  Zony Mash is essentially a
bar band though, and definitely at their best when they
have a little room to stretch out.  For those who
haven't heard any of the live boots that have been
floating around, the new Zony Mash "Live In Seattle" CD
will rectify the situation.  It was recorded at a series
of shows last summer, and I must say that it sounds
terrific!  It's very representative of the current show
they're putting on.  Release date is May 28th, but I
might have a few copies to sell soon at the website,
www.waynehorvitz.com.

By the way, I think of Zony Mash as being much less a
high-concept band than Pigpen was, but no less enjoyable
as a concert experience.  I was glad to get a few
chances to see Pigpen while they were still around, but
now I think that Zony Mash has developed into every bit
as good a band.

Dave
> One thing that is worth mentioning concerning Zony Mash is their ability to
> really stretch any of their compositions. This is definitely not apparent in
> their records and may be the reason of your critic. Pigpen was Horvitz' band
> to play in rock clubs (since this is what Seattle is famous for). I guess
> that moving to Seattle in the early 90's might have been hard from a playing
> point of view. With Pigpen he started to get involved with the local scene
> and this jumpstarted many of his collaborations. I also feel that Pigpen
> records are more representative of the band performances than Zony Mash.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Caltabiano <[e-mail]>
Subject: Dave Douglas press
Date: 29 Mar 2002 10:54:20 -0800

His New Quintet is playing L.A. next week...

http://www.newtimesla.com/issues/2002-03-28/calendar.html/1/index.html

http://www.laweekly.com/picks/#jazz


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "s~Z" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Frisell
Date: 29 Mar 2002 11:44:22 -0800

>>>The last one that floored me was THIS LAND.  Still my favorite,
along with
the live trio disc of him and Joey & Kermit.<<<

Seeing him at Santa Monica's At My Place with Joey, Kermit, and
Hank Roberts remains tied for first with a handful of concerts
that completely electrified me from first note to last. And that
solo on one of Previte's earlier recordings, the piece that was
composed with Frisell in mind. Stunning. ('The Voice' on Claude's
Late Morning.)


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Steve Smith" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Highly recommended [was RE: music defined (indeterminacy)] - long
Date: 29 Mar 2002 16:50:20 -0500

For the record, since it's me under discussion, I'll just point out that I
did, in fact, include Cannibal Ox in my preposterously long list of the best
releases of 2001. (It might have been easy to miss in that context!) I did
and do recommend it, but I can certainly understand your not caring for it.
I've just seen an instrumental version of the disc in stores in recent
weeks, so if the rappers were not to your liking but you enjoyed the beats,
here's your chance. And if you want to use it for karaoke, that's probably
cool, too. On the other hand, I distinctly remember cLOUDEAD being highly
recommended by people whose opinions I hold in high regard, so I rushed
right out and bought it. And I have to report that I had no use for it
whatsoever. So yes, clearly, personal taste is certainly going to play a
major role in any aesthetic evaluation of what is and is not successful art.

Someone recently lamented the dearth of personal "recent listening" lists
'round these parts, so I'll just jump and and mention a few recent things
I've been spinning madly of late:

Tony Oxley B.I.M.P. quartet: 'Floating Phantoms' (A/L/L) - The initial
release from a new offshoot of FMP features much the same group that
recorded 'The Tony Oxley Quartet' for Incus some years back, but here
violinist Phil Wachsmann replaces Derek Bailey. The textures are more spare
as a result, but there's certainly no lack of activity. Oxley's style is
fairly predictable by now (and that's NOT a condemnation - I'd say the same
of Bailey, and I still buy disc after disc by both - there's a certain
comfort in familiarity), so the majority of the novelty lies with the other
three participants. Pat Thomas spend more time on piano during this outing
than the previous disc, though he's a spare, undemonstrative player. Matt
Wand sends sampled noises and voices (one sounding rather like Bailey's, in
fact) whooshing around the soundstage, while Wachsmann goes back and forth
from straight violin to electrified violin to more abstracted electronics.
To paraphrase a famous maxim, for those who enjoy this kind of music, this
is the kind of music that they enjoy. And I have been enjoying it quite a
bit.

L. Stinkbug: 'The Allure of Roadside Curios' (Starlight Furniture Co.) -
Guitarist G.E. Stinson, formerly of Windham Hill new agers Shadowfax, has
taken an increasingly abstract and aggressive approach to improvised music
for the last several years. Here, he's heard in four freeform sprawls with
fellow Angeleno guitar hero Nels Cline; Stinson's astringent textural washes
make a fine foil for Cline's more linear squiggles. Electric bassist Steuart
Liebig and drummer Scott Amendola support the chaotic proceedings with
gusto.

J.S. Bach: Sonatas for Violin and Harpsichord (Sony Classical) - Italian
violinist Giuliano Carmignola has made his reputation over the last two
years with unbelievably fiery recordings of concertos by Vivaldi, including
the most compelling recording of the Four Seasons I've ever heard (and one
that, improbably, I continue to listen to repeatedly). Ironically, his take
on the Bach sonatas is quite the opposite of his improvisatory glee in
Vivaldi: here, accompanied by harpsichordist Andrea Marcon (who led the
orchestra in the Vivaldi discs), he's more reverant. He plays with skill,
poise, and incredible beauty. It's been a good year for recordings of these
pieces, but Carmignola's stand among the finest.

Hugh Le Caine: Compositions Demonstrations 1946-1974 (EMF) - A fairly
mind-blowing collection of short tracks by the Canadian scientist, musician
and instrument builder. Includes his famous "Dripsody" (90 seconds of
dizzying melody created by varying the speed of a recording of drops of
water, offered in both mono and stereo versions), plus similar experiments
and achingly sincere performances of such chestnuts as the Rhapsody in Blue
and a string quartet movement by Gluck performed on the "Sackbut
Synthesizer." It's like Edison channeling the Residents, or something like
that.

Arch Enemy: 'Wages of Sin' (Century Media) - Archetypal Swedish melodic
death metal, picking up where 'Heartwork'-era Carcass left off and sounding
somewhat similar to At the Gates and In Flames (though far harder than the
latter - ick), led by guitarists Michael Ammott (Carnage, Carcass, Spiritual
Beggars) and brother Chris. This is easily their best disc to date: they
still bear maximal firepower, but there's also a real subtlety and
sensitivity in some of their stuff that reminds me a bit of "musicians'
bands" like Opeth. Oh, and their new singer, well, she looks a bit like
Jenna Jameson and sounds a lot like Jeff Walker (Carcass). What a trip.

Various Artists: 'Global Accordion' (Wergo) - A celebration of the
squeezebox in all its iterations, in 26 nicely remastered 78 rpm recordings
from 1927-48, representing musical traditions from Puerto Rico, Ireland,
France, Turkey, South Africa, Poland, Madagascar, Texas, Louisiana and much,
much more.

Honorable mentions:
Hans Werner Henze: Requiem (Sony Classical, OOP)
Johanssen/Dorner/Neumann: 'Barcelona Series' (hatOLOGY)
Ellery Eskelin: '12 (+1) Imaginary Views' (hatOLOGY)
Guillermo E. Brown: 'Soul at the Hands of the Machine' (Thirsty Ear)
Burnt by the Sun: 'Soundtrack to the Personal Revolution' (Relapse)
King Crimson: 'Live in Nashville, TN 2001' (King Crimson Collectors Club)
Cannibal Corpse: 'Gore Obsessed' (Metal Blade)
The Crown: 'Crowned in Terror' (Metal Blade)
Mastodon: 'Lifesblood' (Relapse)
Entombed: 'Morning Star' (Koch)
Geirr Tveitt: A Hundred Hardanger Tunes Suites 2 & 5 (Naxos)


Steve Smith
[e-mail]
NP - Debussy, Pelleas et Melisande - Von Otter, Holzmair, French Natl
Orch/Haitink (Naive)


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Frisell
Date: 29 Mar 2002 16:06:40 -0800

on 3/29/02 11:44 AM, s~Z at [e-mail] wrote:

>>>> The last one that floored me was THIS LAND.  Still my favorite,
> along with
> the live trio disc of him and Joey & Kermit.<<<
>
> Seeing him at Santa Monica's At My Place with Joey, Kermit, and
> Hank Roberts remains tied for first with a handful of concerts
> that completely electrified me from first note to last. And that
> solo on one of Previte's earlier recordings, the piece that was
> composed with Frisell in mind. Stunning. ('The Voice' on Claude's
> Late Morning.)
>
>
> -
>
anyone remember Frisell's playing on Eberhard Weber's LATER THAT EVENING?
That's where and when I got hooked.

skip h


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: " A.VanValin" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: why is music needed?
Date: 29 Mar 2002 20:07:45 -0800


----- Original Message -----

> I was curious since your our on the subject of 'what music is'
> I thought I'd also add why do you think we 'need' it.

Hmmm. I haven't seen any answers that include the social aspect of music. So
I'd like to throw this into the mix:

For one thing, I see people use music to help define themselves and their
places in the world. Mostly in the identity-acquisition years in highschool
I guess, but I still see it all the time.  People often wear their
affiliations with pride, as a concert shirt or a ridiculously loud car
stereo or whatever. And I have to admit, sometimes (in some senses) "musical
taste" is a quick and accurate litmus test.

At the same time, it just-plain-feels-good to listen to music with other
people. Isn't part of the charm of live music that other people are present?
As much as I like my CDs and as much as I like my girlfriend, once in a
while it would be nice if I could enjoy both at the same time (I'm doomed in
that sense I suppose).

And third: for people to live in society they need to be able to pick up on
all sortsa details about consensus and context and all that, and for those
who are kinda slow music gives a set of cues. It tells you how to feel when
an army marches by, or when a CG dinosaur eats a mild mannered scientist or
whatever.

van





-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Richard Pinhas and Schizotrope
Date: 30 Mar 2002 09:52:35 +0000

I've found out that the second of the Schizotrope series was released awhile
ago on Cuneiform.  Does anyone have it?  Any comments?

Pinhas also played with Heldon.  Does anyone have any of their stuff?  Any
recommendations and is there stuff still available?  Thanks.

_________________________________________________________________
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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Morton Feldman & Edgar Varese
Date: 30 Mar 2002 09:54:22 +0000

Probably been covered a million times here, but perhaps someone could
recommend where to start with Morton Feldman and Edgar Varese.  Is Varese in
print anywhere?  Thanks.

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Caleb T. Deupree" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Morton Feldman & Edgar Varese
Date: 30 Mar 2002 06:16:49 -0500

At 09:54 AM 3/30/02 +0000, Bill Ashline wrote:
>Probably been covered a million times here, but perhaps someone could
>recommend where to start with Morton Feldman and Edgar Varese.  Is Varese in
>print anywhere?  Thanks.

If you like solo piano, Louis Goldstein has a Triadic Memories paired with
Cage's One5, and excellent renditions of both pieces.  This is a two-cd
set, where Triadic Memories takes a disc and a half.  This is a much longer
(and therefore slower) rendition of other versions, which are all on single
discs.  In general, I prefer his long piano works to the short ones, and I
understand that John Tilbury's 4cd set of his piano music is also
excellent.  The new string quartet release on Hat is also superb, although
at four cds and five hours, it may be a little intimidating.

For his orchestral work, I'd recommend Neither, his 'opera' with the
libretto by Samuel Beckett.  It's nearly a last work for both men, a very
lush, almost romantic setting of a verse that Beckett sent him on a post
card, so it's certainly not an opera in the typical sense of the word.  And
I generally don't like opera, but the soprano part (the only voice) is well
blended into the orchestral sound.

The only Feldman I've heard that I haven't liked is the set of pieces for
solo instrument and orchestra that he did in mid-career, things like Piano
and Orchestra, Oboe and Orchestra, etc.

I'll leave the Varese to someone else, although I think Boulez has a
complete works set that has an excellent reputation.
--

Caleb Deupree
[e-mail]

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Stephen Fruitman)
Subject: Re: RJC
Date: 30 Mar 2002 13:16:45 +0100 (MET)

Zornies -

I made my latest response to Duncan off-list, because I am sure 99% of
members have had enough and want to talk music. However, since Duncan
answered me on-list, I=B4ll just make my last statements here.

D wrote:
>>Zionism, mentioned in programs in connection with Zorn's music, is very
>>much >>about place.

and Arthur Gadney correctly asked:

>Doesn't Zorn only talk about "cultural zionism"? Not sure exactly what that
>means, but perhaps it's a call for a Jewish place in culture, instead of a
>piece of earth?

Which I agree with. Otherwise, check out the loooong discussion conducted
on this list about this terminology several months ago.

>Can you explain to me what Serge Gainsbourg, notorious French atheist, has
>to >do with Jewishness?

Can=B4t explain what Burt Bacharach or Marc Bolan have to do with it, either=
.
But then again, "Jewishness" is a very many-sided ethnic/cultural indicator
nowadays and you don=B4t have to believe in God to consider yourself Jewish.
S

Stephen Fruitman
Dept of Historical Studies
Ume=E5 University
SE-901 87 Ume=E5 Sweden



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Morton Feldman & Edgar Varese
Date: 30 Mar 2002 10:21:46 -0600

On Sat, Mar 30, 2002 at 09:54:22AM +0000, Bill Ashline wrote:
> Probably been covered a million times here, but perhaps someone could
> recommend where to start with Morton Feldman and Edgar Varese.  Is Varese in
> print anywhere?  Thanks.

For samplers of Feldman's shorter works, I'd recommend "Only: Works
for Voice and Instrument" (New Albion NA085) and the self-titled
collections on Koch (KIC-7466-2) or Auvidis Montaigne (MO 782018).

To get both Feldman and Varese at a single swoop, there's a CD on Col
Legno (WWE 1CD 31872) of live recordings of Varese's "Octandre" and
"Integrales" and Feldman's "Rothko Chapel" (my favorite of his pieces,
although the recording I like best, from an old Columbia Odyssey LP,
remains sadly out of print).

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Zorn Gift Live In London
Date: 30 Mar 2002 16:06:05 +0000 (GMT)

------=_Part_293_5315897.1017504365867
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I was at this too, and I have to say I agreed mostly with the Guardian's point of view. I (more or less) stopped going to rock concerts because if I wanted to hear the CD, I could listen at home (in a chair) and the sound would probably be better. OK, the sound and chair arguments don't apply with the Barbican (or "Barbi-kharn", as JZ called it) but you know where I'm coming from...

It surprises me that people came to the gig expecting Zorn to play sax (as has been reported earlier). Have they not heard the CD? The fact that Zorn felt compelled to say that he didn't usually like playing this kind of music live spoke volumes - considering how many different projects he has on the go could he not have suggested that, much as those at the Barbican like "The Gift" that something else would be preferable? Reminds me of Spinal Tap's decision to play "Jazz Odyssey" in front of a festival audience ;>)

I also thought it was a great shame that Dave Douglas came all the way over merely to play on one track, although the encore more than made up for it. Someone mentioned electric Miles; Ribot was very McLaughlin circa "Jack Johnson", Jamie Saft finally got to let loose in a Chick Corea style and the percussionists gave it that "Dark Magus" feel.

Hey Dave, you were at this too. Now you've had time to ponder, anything to add?

Alastair Wilson





--
Personalised email by http://another.com
------=_Part_293_5315897.1017504365867--


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Steve Smith" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Morton Feldman & Edgar Varese
Date: 30 Mar 2002 11:23:48 -0500

Boulez has recorded complete Varese programs twice: a few decades back for
Columbia (now Sony Classical), and again for a Grammy-winning Deutsche
Grammophon disc last year. The older recording derserves its classic status;
the DGG recording, in my opinion, is a tired, turgid bore, though clearly
I'm in the minority there.

If you want to get everything in one pop, the two-disc set by Ricardo
Chailly, the Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra and the Asko Ensemble on
London/Decca is hard to beat - exceptional performances of Varese's oeuvre
in sumptuous sound, and Chailly includes the electronic passages of Deserts
where Boulez did not. Amazingly, however, there's a really cheap alternative
if you just want to stick your toe in the water - Naxos (them again!)
released a single disc of Arcana, Deserts (with the electronics),
Integrales, Offrandes and Octandre around the same time that Boulez II
arrived. With this disc, you get five major scores in fine performances by
the Polish National Radio Symphony and sound for the admission price of
about $1.25 per work. Hard to beat.

(Speaking of that Polish orchestra and Naxos, their Lutoslawski and
Penderecki series are both invaluable, and their recent Messiaen
Turangalila-Symphony is hard to beat at twice the price.)

My only problem with the Naxos is that you don't get the absolutely seminal
Ionisation, still probably the finest percussion ensemble piece to date. But
if you're lucky, you can still find find a Nonesuch disc by the New Jersey
Percussion Ensemble that combined an LP of short works (Ionisation and works
by Cowell, Colgrass and Saperstein) with an LP of Charles Wuorinen's
decidedly un-shitty Percussion Symphony, a work which intersperses atonal,
abstract movements with a transcription of a Dufay vocal work. Just
marvelous, and the recordings (from '74 and '78) hold up well.

For Feldman, I'd start with Piano and String Quartet, either on hat[NOW]art
or Nonesuch, and move on from there. The hat recording of the monumental
String Quartet II is, well, monumental, but it may be a bit too much for
starters...

Steve Smith
[e-mail]


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "gorilla thing" <[e-mail]>
Subject: why is music needed?
Date: 30 Mar 2002 08:42:54 -0800

>And third: for people to live in society they need to be able to
pick up on
all sortsa details about consensus and context and all that, and
for those
who are kinda slow music gives a set of cues. It tells you how
to feel when
an army marches by, or when a CG dinosaur eats a mild mannered
scientist or
whatever.>

van

interested point, is it possible that music can be use to control?



_________________________________________________________________
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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: feldman.
Date: 30 Mar 2002 12:41:47 EST

finally, a topic i feel like responding to.  what's it been, two, three days?

i am obsessed with morton feldman, but it's kind of a painful thing for me.
i am not sure i find much of his orchestral work enjoyable, it actually kind
of stresses me out, but i can't stop playing

coptic light
<and>
the viola in my life

for the solo piano stuff, i would second the triadic memories / one5 discs -
triadic memories is far and away my favourite feldman solo piano piece.

basically any of the solo piano pieces are transcendent and perfect and
beautiful, so enjoy.

and morton feldman was possibly the coolest looking composer of all time.

love,
 k8.



---
[.n0thing.is.what.is.sAid.]
k a t e  p e t e r s o n
c o m p o s e r / p e r f o r m e r

http://www.geocities.com/uforbk8/kate.html
http://www.icefoundation.org (roundtable)

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: VPRO (was: Zony Mash returns)
Date: 30 Mar 2002 13:40:38 EST

In a message dated 3/29/02 10:28:31 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< Zony Mash (the electric version) played in Utrecht on sunday march 18.
 This concert (a great show!!) was recorded by VPRO-radio and will be
 broadcast in may or june.
 This broadcast also available in real-audio on the VPRO-site in may or june:
 http://www.vpro.nl/programma/jazzopvier >>

Hi Marcel-

There are multiple links that pop up under the above URL.  For the sake of
bookmarking, which one of these will we click on to get to the future ZM
concert?

--
=dg=

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:    [e-mail] (Patrick Carey)
Subject: Re: Edgard =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Var=E8se?=
Date: 30 Mar 2002 19:20:27 -0500

* "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>:
>>Probably been covered a million times here, but perhaps someone
>>could recommend where to start with Morton Feldman and Edgar Varese.
>>Is Varese in print anywhere?

For Edgard Var=E8se, I'd go straight for the "Complete Works" 2CD
from 1998 on London/Decca.  It's w/ Riccardo Chially, the Royal
Concertgebouw Orchestra & the ASKO Ensmble.


-Patrick


NP: Blak Twang - "19 Long Time..."



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: duncan youngerman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re:feldman
Date: 31 Mar 2002 01:55:52 +0100

"Three Voices" could be a good place to start if you're at all into
Minimalism.
(New Albion Records 018, Joan La Barbara, voice).
Unique a capella stream of consciousness representative of his slightly
Reich-influenced late style.

also

"Why Patterns?" (also repetitive), for flute, percussion, piano. (CRI
620).

"For Bunita Marcus", 72 minutes-long, but you'll want to hear it again
and again, for solo piano.

"For Samuel Beckett" for large ensemble.

D.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: " A.VanValin" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: why is music needed?
Date: 30 Mar 2002 19:20:41 -0800


----- Original Message -----


> >...set of cues. It tells you how to feel when an army marches by, or
>>when a CG dinosaur eats a mild mannered scientist or whatever.

> interested point, is it possible that music can be use to control?

I didn't mean that music could control one against ones will. I meant that
some  people want (or is it need?) to be told what to feel and when to feel
it, and music can help.  I can't say whether that's enculturation or
manipulation or indoctrination or something else entirely.

van


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Zachary Steiner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: why is music needed?
Date: 30 Mar 2002 23:37:37 -0500

>> I didn't mean that music could control one against ones will. I meant
that some  people want (or is it need?) to be told what to feel and when
to feel it, and music can help.  I can't say whether that's
enculturation or
manipulation or indoctrination or something else entirely.

You can't deny music's role in propaganda machines to inspire patriotic
fervor.  Be it German marches or "God Bless America."

Zach



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Artur Nowak" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Frisell & The BOMB?
Date: 31 Mar 2002 08:04:03 -0500

Hi Philozorners,

I generally agree with recent statemets about Frisell's departure from the
area of exciting music. Without digging too deep: I'm also disappointed with
lase (4 years?) records. They are just too sweet. But I still hope  he will
suprise us with an interesting project. I heard about a show from March 2001
called:

BILL FRISELL & THE BOMB

BF-guitar
Vinicius Cantuaria-guitar/vox
Christos Govetas-oud
Sidiki Camara-percussion

This was at Earshot Jazz Festival Seattle, WA. Was it one-time event? Is it
really Frisell's "band"? Or just Vinicius' tunes from last album with
Frisell as a guest?

Regards

    __________________________________________________________________
    Artur Nowak [arno at emd dot pl] www.emd.pl/muzyka
    NP: AALY Trio & Ken Vandermark Live 24.03.2000., Wells


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: i need input.
Date: 31 Mar 2002 02:38:57 EST

i am looking for reccomendations in two genres, both of which you all
probably hate, so bear with me:

emo - the poppier the better but still punk none of that radio play shit
dub techno - kind of in the kit clayton genre or something closer

thanks alls ya'lls

k



---
[.n0thing.is.what.is.sAid.]
k a t e  p e t e r s o n
c o m p o s e r / p e r f o r m e r

http://www.geocities.com/uforbk8/kate.html
http://www.icefoundation.org (roundtable)

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: i need input.
Date: 31 Mar 2002 02:33:29 -0600


On Sun, Mar 31, 2002 at 02:38:57AM -0500, [e-mail] wrote:

> emo - the poppier the better but still punk none of that radio play shit

Wow, I hadn't heard of Emo Phillips in years, He's doing music now?

--
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Andrew" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: i need input.
Date: 31 Mar 2002 02:40:40 -0500

> emo - the poppier the better but still punk none of that radio play shit

Milemarker- they're "emo" as in slightly mathy emotional post-hardcore-
their record "firgid forms sell" was just re-released on Jade Tree. They
spice up the sound with synths, beats, and male and female vocals.

> dub techno - kind of in the kit clayton genre or something closer

Do you mean glitch? Kit Clayton doesn't really have anything to do with dub.
I suggest Jan Jelinek's "loop finding jazz records"- he basically sampled a
bunch of 1-second loops from jazz records, and made this album. It's very
dubby (in the Pole sense), but also very clicky and glitchy, but very
soothing and relaxing too.




-



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From: "Remco Takken" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Richard Pinhas and Schizotrope
Date: 30 Mar 2002 21:11:21 +0100


> I've found out that the second of the Schizotrope series was released
awhile
> ago on Cuneiform.  Does anyone have it?  Any comments?
>
> Pinhas also played with Heldon.  Does anyone have any of their stuff?  Any

I own one Pinhas cd, it is indeed on Cuneiform from a few years ago. I have
it packed (check my new address below, for all you interested), I can't
check the title right now, it's originally from the mid-seventies. I really
love that one, early synthesizer explorations, Soft Machine-like textures
into the minimal realm, and warm analog sounds galore.

The next time I stumbled on a Pinhas cd, it was a later collaboration with
some prog rock guy. I stayed away from that: drum machines and quantized
sequencing rendered the god-old hypnotic minimalism into boring and unsubtle
repetitions.

Regards, Remco Takken

now living:
Commissarislaan 105
8016 LL Zwolle
The Netherlands


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From: "josephneff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: i need input.
Date: 31 Mar 2002 09:26:57 -0500

Hello,
      ....regarding emo, if you haven't heard it, you may want to go all the
way back to Rites of Spring. The CD of their collected recordings is on
Dischord, it's cheap, and it's the music that started the whole emo-core
thing. The first album, which makes up the bulk of the CD, may be the single
best recording ever released by Dischord. It's a great on, IMHO.

I remain....

Joseph

NP: Tim Berne- "Fulton Street Maul" LP
NR: Rick Moody- "Garden State"

-----Original Message-----
[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of [e-mail]
Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2002 2:39 AM


i am looking for reccomendations in two genres, both of which you all
probably hate, so bear with me:

emo - the poppier the better but still punk none of that radio play shit
dub techno - kind of in the kit clayton genre or something closer

thanks alls ya'lls

k



---
[.n0thing.is.what.is.sAid.]
k a t e  p e t e r s o n
c o m p o s e r / p e r f o r m e r

http://www.geocities.com/uforbk8/kate.html
http://www.icefoundation.org (roundtable)

-


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From: "Zachary Steiner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: i need input.
Date: 31 Mar 2002 09:59:36 -0500

Could some one define emo?  I've had some people try to explain it to no
avail.  Thanks

Zach



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Nirav Soni" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: i need input.
Date: 31 Mar 2002 12:16:56 -0500

> emo - the poppier the better but still punk none of that radio play shit

cap'jazz- Analphabetapolothology. Never fails to get me on my toes and
howling along. It's so wide-eyed and wonderful. They ended up becoming The
Promise Ring and Joan of Arc, the latter is are also not to be missed, but
cap'N Jazz : Joan of Arc :: Bastro :: Gastr Del Sol.

Nirav
--
NR- _A Crackup at the Race Riots_ - Harmony Korine
NP- Thuja- Ghost Plants (Emperor Jones)
AIM: Icefactory37
"Duration is to the consciousness as light is to the eye" - Bill Viola


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: David Beardsley <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: feldman.
Date: 31 Mar 2002 13:15:59 -0500

----- Original Message -----

> and morton feldman was possibly the coolest looking composer of all time.

And, at the same time: the scariest.


* David Beardsley
* http://biink.com
* http://mp3.com/davidbeardsley


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Herb Levy <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Morton Feldman & EdgarD Varese
Date: 31 Mar 2002 13:16:20 -0600

"Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]> asks:

>Probably been covered a million times here, but perhaps someone could
>recommend where to start with Morton Feldman and Edgar Varese.  Is Varese in
>print anywhere?  Thanks.

Feldman's late, long works are the ones everyone raves about, and in
general, I like them a lot, too. But if you want a  disc that offers
a fairly wide range of works by Feldman, you could do a lot worse
than the single disc compilation released on Editions RZ (available
from Anomalous and Verge). This is mostly airchecks of European radio
broadcasts including several recordings of piano works performed by
Morton Feldman and David Tudor.

Other compilations of Feldman's music from various periods that are
useful include Only, works with voice featuring Joan La Barbara on
New Albion, Marianne Schroeder's collection Piano on Hat Art, The
Sabat/Clarke duo's collection of music for violin & piano on Mode,
and the Barton Workshop's 3-CD set called the Ecstasy of the Moment
on Etcetera.

Of Feldman's later works long enough so they won't fit onto such a
compilation, I really, really love Violin & String Quartet with Aki
Takahashi & Kronos on Nonesuch. I like the performances of the three
trios for flutes, keyboards, and percussion (Why Patterns, Crippled
Symmetry, For Phillip Guston) by California EAR Unit on Bridge quite
a bit, but wish the recordings didn't have so much room sound.

Caleb Deupree's recommendations (the only ones that have shown up in
digest yet) are all good, though, based on performances I've heard, I
think the instrument and orchestra pieces are still waiting for the
right recordings.

The 2-CD set of Edgard Varese's music on London by Chailly is good
(and the only source for a couple of pieces) but few of the
recordings blow me away. I'm not sure what else is available now
though. For me, Varese has always been more of an "important"
composer than one to whom I really responded.

Bests,

Herb
--
Herb Levy
Mappings: new music in RealAudio
P O Box 9369 Forth Wort, TX 76147 USA
http://antennaradio.com/mappings/show.htm
[e-mail]

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Herb Levy <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Morton Feldman & EdgarD Varese
Date: 31 Mar 2002 13:31:25 -0600

Herb Levy mistyped:

>Of Feldman's later works long enough so they won't fit onto such a
>compilation, I really, really love Violin & String Quartet with Aki
>Takahashi & Kronos on Nonesuch.

Make that Piano & String Quartet.

I've just finished up the notes for an April Mappings that includes
the new recording of Violin & String Quartet on Ogre/Ogress (which I
like on initial listenings and probably should also have recommended)
and I guess that nearly explains my error.


--
Herb Levy
Mappings: new music in RealAudio
P O Box 9369 Forth Wort, TX 76147 USA
http://antennaradio.com/mappings/show.htm
[e-mail]

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: feldman.
Date: 31 Mar 2002 16:28:22 EST


In a message dated 03.31.02 13.17.41, [e-mail] writes:

>> and morton feldman was possibly the coolest looking composer of all time.
>And, at the same time: the scariest.

alright all you well connected composers out there.  it's time for a little
easter contest.  it's not really a contest, so much as a questionnaire.

did morton feldman smell bad?  inquiring minds want to know...  any
description of his scent would be welcomed, the more detailed the better.

and does anyone know what he used in his hair?

these are definitely the earmarks of cool composerdom.

love,
  k8. (who has eaten too much candy today)




---
[.n0thing.is.what.is.sAid.]
k a t e  p e t e r s o n
c o m p o s e r / p e r f o r m e r

http://www.geocities.com/uforbk8/kate.html
http://www.icefoundation.org (roundtable)

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Steve Smith" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: i need input.
Date: 31 Mar 2002 18:08:25 -0500

Burning Airlines - Vince Kargatis (still here, Vince?) turned me on to this
band. I like their album 'Identikit' a lot.

Propagandhi - 'Today's Empires, Tomorrow's Ashes' yokes fierce songcraft to
fierce politics. Check out their website at
http://www.g7welcomingcommittee.com/propagandhi/news.shtml, which includes,
in addition to the typical bios, photos, discography and sounds, links to
any number of social activist sites (today including one called
indictsharon.net - as in Ariel, of course).

Steve Smith
[e-mail]

-----Original Message-----
[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of [e-mail]

i am looking for reccomendations in two genres, both of which you all
probably hate, so bear with me:

emo - the poppier the better but still punk none of that radio play shit


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: i need input.
Date: 31 Mar 2002 23:22:02 +0000


>From: [e-mail]
>Subject: i need input.
>
>i am looking for reccomendations in two genres, both of which you all
>probably hate, so bear with me:
>
>emo - the poppier the better but still punk none of that radio play shit
>dub techno - kind of in the kit clayton genre or something closer

On the dub techno front, I'm guessing you haven't heard Vladislav Delay.
Try Entain and if you prefer house, Luomo and Uusitalo.  Also someone
mentioned Pole regarding the rice crispies dub.  I'm partial to the second
Pole CD.  the first Gas release is also not bad.  If you're looking for
something a bit closer to more traditional dub, try the Macro Dub Infection
comps on Virgin and the Electric Ladyland comps on Mille Plateaux, the most
recent one there works out of "click pop" but I haven't heard it yet.

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: mwoodwor <[e-mail]>
Subject: Altered States
Date: 31 Mar 2002 19:51:18 -0400

Hey There- Downtown Music Gallery is featuring a bunch of the Japanese band,
Altered States, releases right now.  They list one of the releases 'Altered
States featuring Otomo Yoshihide - Lithuania and Estonia live!' as being out
of print and impossible to find.  I picked this up in Japan a few years ago.
If anyone is a big fan and really wants it, I'd be willing to do a trade for
something else.   BTW, anyone on the list heard Altered States and have a
favorite/opinion, if I think back I don't ever recall them being discussed....

Mike.


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: i need input.
Date: 31 Mar 2002 19:03:22 EST

emo:  Any Fugazi record, but start with 13 songs or End Hits. Also Any Jimmy
Eat World album (clarity, and bleed american are masterpieces) - they are
very poppy at times, but also very creative. I also would suggest any
Dismemberment Plan recording though i'm not sure they take themselves
seriously enough to be called emo. but they should not be missed (i just
caught the show in chicago last week - WOW!) - very very original stuff.

-mike t (the instigator)

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:    [e-mail] (Patrick Carey)
Subject: Re: i need input.
Date: 31 Mar 2002 22:18:42 -0500

* [e-mail]:
>>dub techno - kind of in the kit clayton genre or something closer

* "Andrew" <[e-mail]>:
>Do you mean glitch?
>Kit Clayton doesn't really have anything to do with dub.

My God, have you ever listened to a Clayton LP?  He's very much about
dub (modern/post-dub that is), in the same way as Stefan Betke (Pole).
He spans a decent range for sure, but within this you'll find noise,
glitch, breaks, ambient, and plenty of dub/post-dub soundscapes.  Just
have a listen to his brilliant "Nek Sanalet" CD or "Nek Purpalet" 12"
on Betke's top-notch ~Scape label (almost everything on it is great,
IMO), or his disc on Drop Beat, "Repetition & Nonsense".

>I suggest Jan Jelinek's "loop finding jazz records"

I'll second this ... and since I really don't know _exactly_ where Kate
is going with "dub techno", I'll just say that most folks wouldn't be
out of place with a few of these: almost all Chain Reaction/Basic Chann=
el
associated material [M aka Maurizio, Vainqueur, Porter Ricks (w/ Thomas
K=F6ner), Monolake, Scion, Various Artists, Rhythm & Sound, Fluxion (2C=
D)
etc.], Pole, some Vladislav Delay (he's got a ton of stuff out now and
spans quite a range), Jelinek under the Gramm & F=E4rben monikers, Surg=
eon
... hell, even some Thomas Brinkmann might fit the bill.

Hope some of these will get you started. :)


-Patrick


NP: Feldman - "All Piano" 4CD



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Perfect Sound Forever <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: i need input
Date: 31 Mar 2002 23:59:19 -0500


>Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 09:59:36 -0500
>From: "Zachary Steiner" <[e-mail]>
>
>Could some one define emo?  I've had some people try to explain it to no
>avail.  Thanks

Recent article: http://www.furious.com/perfect/emo.html
Hope that helps.

Best,
Jason

Perfect Sound Forever
online music magazine
[e-mail]
http://www.furious.com/perfect


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: i need input.
Date: 01 Apr 2002 00:55:53 EST


In a message dated 03.31.02 18.22.38, [e-mail] writes:

>
>On the dub techno front, I'm guessing you haven't heard Vladislav Delay.

ooh!  i totally forgot about vladislav delay.  i'm going to have my friend
burn me some this week...  mmm...

thanks everyone for the reccs. . ..  keep 'em coming...

l, k of the broken tooth

>




---
[.n0thing.is.what.is.sAid.]
k a t e  p e t e r s o n
c o m p o s e r / p e r f o r m e r

http://www.geocities.com/uforbk8/kate.html
http://www.icefoundation.org (roundtable)

-