In a message dated 8/13/2001 2:43:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
william@steno.com writes:
> Here's one I've been saving up for a while: The Oxford American is a
> literary magazine (near death, sadly) based in my old stomping grounds of
> Oxford, Mississippi. Anyway, the most recent issue is the annual music
> issue (complete with CD of southern music, as every year). There's a brief
> interview with Bill Clinton, asking about his musical likes, dislikes,
> etc. One question was, "What would people be surprised to find out you
> listen to?" Clinton: "Brotzmann, the German saxophonist. One of the
> greatest ever."
>
The man is a pot smoking, sex crazed, Brotzmann fan ... and we let him out of
office ?!?!?
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>In a message dated 8/13/2001 2:43:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
<BR>william@steno.com writes:
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Here's one I've been saving up for a while: The Oxford American is a
<BR>literary magazine (near death, sadly) based in my old stomping grounds of
<BR>Oxford, Mississippi. Anyway, the most recent issue is the annual music
<BR>issue (complete with CD of southern music, as every year). There's a brief
<BR>interview with Bill Clinton, asking about his musical likes, dislikes,
<BR>etc. One question was, "What would people be surprised to find out you
<BR>listen to?" Clinton: "Brotzmann, the German saxophonist. One of the
Subject: Re: What are your favorite ten songs to play really loud?
Date: 13 Aug 2001 20:37:08 -0700
Well, I don't really choose to listen to an album based on a particular songs that often these days, and I fond my desire for loud decreases as I age, but there are things that require taking chances with the lease and annoying my wife:
London Jazz Composers Orchestra - any of them. Hearing the full orchestra kick in after a small group passage is worth getting in shit from the landlord.
Solo bass albums (Joelle Leandre works best really loud, as does Peter Kowald, but any)
Mingus - any
The Who Live at Leeds
Elvis C. - This Year's Model
any of the Die Like a Dog albums
zydeco
Michel Doneda's Anatomie des Clefs
Schlippenbach Trio
----------------
Someone (Kurt Gottschalk?) mentioned getting his first AMM disc and playing it really loud. They are one I really love at low volumes, so that the music becomes part of the atmosphere, rather than creating a new one.
Dan
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Subject: Re: What are your favorite ten songs to play really loud?
Date: 14 Aug 2001 00:46:50 -0700
This is the best I can come up with at the moment. What's the bet I think of another great track the moment I hit send.
"Lonely" - Rollins Band
"The Godfather" - Fantomas
"Come To Daddy" - Aphex Twin
"Die Tote Aus Der Theme" - Peter Thomas Sound Orchestr (I think that's what it's called, it's the second song on Film Musik)
"Another Body Murdered" - FNM & Boo Yaa T.R.I.B.E.
"Easy Muffin" - Amon Tobin
"Simply Beautiful" - Fantomas
Anything off of the Merzbox Sampler
"Sycamore Trees" - Angelo Badalamenti & Jimmy Scott
"Help The Aged" - Ali G & Jarvis Cocker (mp3) :)
And I gotta say "Vocab" by the Fugees. Remember the Fugees? Yep, my friend played that song real loud on the weekend. Haven't heard them since I was in primary school!
Later,
Cameron.
Do you hate clowns? Get Free Email & Free Websites at http://www.ihateclowns.com
Tim is currently the drummer for an amazing group called "Attention Deficit" featuring Alex Skolnick on guitars and Michael Manring on bass... Manring is amazing... He makes Claypool look like he needs to practice, sometimes. The reason I mention the band on this list is because the music is a lot like Massacre with Frith and Laswell. Much of it is improvised, especially on the first album, with some raw editing that's fun and uncompromising. I urge everyone who likes Primus and Frith/Laswell stuff to check out the albums...
The first album is the better of the two, although both have really strong moments...
-Theo
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<P>Tim is currently the drummer for an amazing group called "Attention Deficit" featuring Alex Skolnick on guitars and Michael Manring on bass... Manring is amazing... He makes Claypool look like he needs to practice, sometimes. The reason I mention the band on this list is because the music is a lot like Massacre with Frith and Laswell. Much of it is improvised, especially on the first album, with some raw editing that's fun and uncompromising. I urge everyone who likes Primus and Frith/Laswell stuff to check out the albums...</P>
<P>The first album is the better of the two, although both have really strong moments... </P>
<P>-Theo </P><p><br><hr size=1><b>Do You Yahoo!?</b><br>
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>And the live shows were dangerous like nothing I'd seen before or >since.
My two dangerous shows were: 1. Faust's North American debut where one band member was swinging a chainsaw very close to audience members (& yes it was real because he'd been cutting something). 2. Anybody remember Psychodrama? Their performance at the Destroy All Music festival featured one member in nothing but a diaper while the other broke LPs in half and then zipped them at the audience which could have easily "put somebody's eye out" among other things.
Of course Steve probably means psychically/mentally dangerous and is probably right there. Faust was mostly tedious and Psychodrama just silly.
Subject: ch gayle FREE nyc/Fwd: Thu Aug 16. Grass,i Booth, Gayle.& more
Date: 14 Aug 2001 15:47:53 EDT
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Thursday, August 16, 2001 7 P.M.
A FREE unannounced concert
with: The Bass Junkies: Juini Booth - bass; Charles Gayle - sax;
Lou Grassi - drums; Wayne Providence - guitar; On Davis - spoken word
@The Community Garden- 209 East 7th Street(between Ave. B & C)
This performance will be filmed as part of a French documentary on Juini
Booth.
Come join us and make jazz history!
Raindate August 23
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The show I saw of the Buttholes around '85 was pretty much like the one(s) described in the Azerrad book (which I recommend also): naked green dancer, two drummers standing, home movies, surgery movies,
strobe lights, smoke machine, singer in lingerie with megaphone in hand. Pretty much like my bar mitzvah...
An early Neubatuen tape I'd seen (from the early '80's) had them performing in a junkyard around a flaming garbage can with some of the band banging on pipes and barrels. Surely worth the Eurovision
I really like Jim Black's AlasNoAxis, Slow Poke, Pigpen, Fantomas, Bill Frisell, Jack Dejohnette, Medeski, Martin and Wood, etc.... Anyone got any recommendations based on that list... I've been looking to buy a dozen CD's with my Republican tax-relief check... ...and yes, I know it's not a refund...
-Theo
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<P>recommendations zornsters?</P>
<P>I really like Jim Black's AlasNoAxis, Slow Poke, Pigpen, Fantomas, Bill Frisell, Jack Dejohnette, Medeski, Martin and Wood, etc.... Anyone got any recommendations based on that list... I've been looking to buy a dozen CD's with my Republican tax-relief check... ...and yes, I know it's not a refund...</P>
<P>-Theo</P><p><br><hr size=1><b>Do You Yahoo!?</b><br>
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How would everyone here feel about Zorn doing another "standards" -type release, highlighting some jazz musician(s) whose output has been overlooked? I still enjoy his Sunny Clark Memorial/_Voodoo_ release. Way cool stuff...
> People don't feel classic Coltrane, Brotzman, Miles or Louis because any of
> them blew longest, loudest, or fastest but because they brought a unique
> sensibility and sensitivity to their instruments that's communicated for
> listeners to commune with. Maybe the majority of musicians in this
> programmed age, Zorn included, have lost touch with the distinctive
> qualities that attract(ed) audiences to their art in the first place.
>
Ground-breaking music can and does spring from an artists' sincere feelings about expressing themselves. I'd definitely agree that too many times, artists worry about their work getting staid and always try to 'progress.' On the
other hand, it isn't any better for an artist to be doing the same exact thing every time out. Ideally, there's some kind of balance in between, which most artists have a lot of difficulty achieving.
I'd be curious to hear what people here think about how conscious great artists are about how revolutionary their works are. From interviews I've done and read, it seems that hindsight helps a lot but many times, they were just
determinedly going down the path of self-expression.
How come we get 5 live Masada CD's and no Naked City Live albums? They performed a number of songs live that never ended up on any album... Imagine the excitement this would drum up...
-Theo
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<P> How come we get 5 live Masada CD's and no Naked City Live albums? They performed a number of songs live that never ended up on any album... Imagine the excitement this would drum up...</P>
<P>-Theo</P><p><br><hr size=1><b>Do You Yahoo!?</b><br>
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<DIV>To be honest, I'd always been baffled whenever people sang the praises of Tommy Flanagan. He always sounded like he never really had anything interesting to say, musically, and I even think his pianistic ability could be called into question from time to time. He, Barry Harris, other similar guys, they just seem to be rehashing Bud Powell, sprinkling in some token Monk 'quirkiness,' and then stopping there before ever getting to any sort of original idea.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Frankly, I'd be hard-pressed to say that any piano players have a better combination of technique, ideas, and innate musical sense than Herbie Hancock or Keith Jarrett. Despite the forays by either of them outside mainstream jazz, no one even comes close to them, as far as I'm concerned, when they choose to play it.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>As far as Zorn goes, I'd say that Hermetic Theatre was actually an encouraging sign that he might do something at least slightly more interesting sometime soon. Honestly, the only reason I'm even on the Zorn list at this point is because I learn about so much interesting music from y'all, 99% of that only tangentially having to do with Zorn. Yes, he's done wonderful things: Spillane, Locus Solus, Grand Guignol, Heretic, Absinthe, Duras/Duchamp, Elegy, Book of Heads. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The notion that he'd stand up to major composers of the 90's is fairly dubious, though. As far as America goes, I can't even think offhand of an American composer who's music I really like, with the exception of Elliott Carter, whom I love.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>BTW, I'm deeply immersed in Keiji Haino-land at the mo, both solo records and Fushitsusha. He is simply jaw-droppingly amazing, AFAIC. Watashi-Dake? and the hurdy-gurdy stuff simply blows me away...</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>-matt mitchell</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>NR: The Royal Family by William T. Vollmann</DIV>
>Why "suspicious"? The guy┤s Jewish, and in an era when people of all creeds
>and ethnic origins (especially Americans) are rediscovering and, more
>interestingly, _reimagining_ their cultures, Zorn is doing the same thing
>with his. And he also clearly stated on the Masada series of CDs that his
>inspiration was in part taken from the early-20th century Jewish thinker
>Ahad Ha-am, whose "cultural Zionism" was at odds with the political variant
>from day one. Why the conspiracy tone? Are labels producing (say) Gypsy or
>Balkan music "suspicious"?
Gypsy music is not a 'reimagining' of culture. 'Traditional' forms are most often best mastered by traditional players. Zorn's own Radical Jewish CUlture music is often about the Jewish experience, but usually has almost nothing (overtly) to do with traditional Jewish music. Despite this, the players are exclusively Jewish, just about (correct me if I'm wrong about this, are there other non-Jews besides Anthony Coleman on those CDs?). All of this without a mention of the crimes being done in the name of Judaism as we speak.
Besides, how can someone be the vanguard of a downtown/international Radical music scene and also claim to be 'non-political.' A non-political, RADICAL Jewish outlook is absurd. What does it mean?
Here is quote from Elliott SHarp:
"...and the only reason I would do a record on the Radical Jewish series (which is the one I did with Ronny Someck) was because he is a non Zionist, he is an Iraqi born Jew. An Israeli, but his attitude about it is outside, you know"
from http://www.algonet.se/~repple/esharp/slovene1.htm (about a fifth of the way down the page).
How is Ahad Ha-am's "cultural Zionism" different from what we find in Israel's government today? I'm not challenging this, I'd just like to know.
None of this makes Zorn's music any less terror-ific, but it does make me question the ways the guy runs a business....
<DIV>Actually, wasn't the band that contained Wes in the early 60's, like 1961? Didn't I read somewhere that one live version of the band was the classic quartet, plus Dolphy AND Wes Montgomery?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Tangentially related: Doesn't a tape exist somehwere of the Miles quintet of the 60's, minus miles and with Gary Peacock instead of Ron Carter?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Another Tangent: Do tapes exist of the same quintet plus Joe Henderson, a configuration that's been reported before?</DIV>
<DIV>Elliott Carter. His masterwork, Sum Fluxae Pretium Spei, was completed in 1996, when he was 87. He's 92 or something now; since that work, he's written numerous small solo violin and piano works, a clarinet concerto, a cello concerto, a song cycle, miscellaneous chanber pieces, and an opera. His 'breakthrough' work, the one that kind of codified his approaches for the rest of his career, was the First String Quartet, written in 1951, when he was 43.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>He's not the norm, obviously, but a wonderful exception, though.</DIV>
>>All of this without a mention of the crimes being done in the name of
>Judaism as we speak.
>Are you serious? (I don't know if I have permission to breath here), but I don't recall the recent JAZZ IN PARIS cd-reissues make
any mention of the imperialistic crimes made on behalf of the French Empire, or any apology in the editions of Bachs Cantates.
(Well, why not? Wouldn't it be great? I'm serious, R U Sirius, too?) If the Radical Jewish Culture Series -- (unlike Jazz in Paris it's intended to be MORE than a set of CDs and performances, right? Jazz in Paris does not claim to be Radical, either) -- has nothing to say about politics, about real things happening to real people, then why bother? If we start to/ or continue to confine Politics and Culture/Music to separate spheres, what then?
We get equally useless self-referencing post-modernist/ feegood multiculturalist music and the $ "music" of Mtv. The only reason I would expect Zorn and the Radical Jewish Culture Series to have some sort of political position concerning Israel and Palestine is because the question is central to Jews all over the world. In general, if a group that claims to represent me commits crimes, then I would tend to want to decry these crimes. And I do. and so do most people, except when it interferes with their business or with their vision of their pure art. Rarely, though, do the ônon-decry-ersö profess to be Radical.
That is why Zappa, Chadbourne, (early) Dylan, Negativland, most local hardcore scenes, KRS-One, etc. are, in my opinion, such IMPORTANT figures - they soil(ed) their music with political topics, denying the separation between cultural and political activities.
> Is it absurd to speak of "radical" culture? I would say the course
Which arts and letters has taken over past hundred years or so shows clearly that "radical" is not a strictly political term.
I would not say that it is a strictly political term either, but that it INCLUDES the political, as well as the cultural. Refusing the separation between politics and art is, to me, approaching a definition the word radical. That is how the Situationiste Internationale, for example, were radical and how abstract expressionists were not.
>I don't think that expressing ones self in terms of a sort of Jewish
culture necessitates taking an overt political stance regarding Israel in one's music. We simply do not know the true feelings of perhaps ANY of the people on these discs regarding current Middle East politics. For all we know, their stances could range from one extreme to the other.
Does anybody else see that as a problem?- that Zionism/anti-Zionism isn't even part of the discourse in a Radical Jewish group of artists? In doing research (albeit not super in-depth) for an article on Zorn, the political silence around him seems deafening. Who benefits when Radical Art today scarcely does anything but re-signify within its own field? What would Dada do (WWDD)?
I do see your points, Stephen and Robert, about the ethnic exclusivity of the Radical Jewish Culture Series û who better to reinterpret ôJewishö music than those that identify w/ the fringe of the diaspora? However, shouldnÆt we expect some sort of political discourse in a Radical group of artists?
>far. I suspect that if an artist in the series had a project that
>directly addressed this political issue, it would come out. But I
>doubt that there's any sort of cabal that's figured out every detail
>of what they will address and what the issues are. From what I read,
that's my point -- the artists don't address anything but each others' work, Zorn doesn't, the kinds of artists chosen by Zorn to record don't.
>Jewish culture is kind of vast. While the RJC series doesn't directly
>address the issues that most interest you, there are also a lot of
>other issues related to Jewish culture, directly or indirectly, that
>it doesn't yet address.
issues that are top headlines worldwide every single day are not simply issues that "interest me." a lot of lame artists are often worry about muddling their ideal artistic product in the debris that is real life - politics, means of production (of their product), the human body itself even (e.g. Jarrett the human cough suppressant). is this Zorn's concern?
>ambivalence about it. While I protest some of the actions of Israel's
>leadership and military, I also recognize the very real situations and
>fears within which they happen. And demonizing either side does
>nothing to solve the situation.
maybe we shouldn't get into this, but at least let me digress for 2 short sentences: 1.read yer Chomsky! and 2.the UN (minus the US and Israel) is "demonizing" Israel also.
>Do you see it as Radical Art's responsibility to "benefit" any given
>group? Might it be that the artists, while agreeing on many things, do
>not have a consensus on this issue, or might remain ambivalent? After
if they don't have a consensus on the issue, then we ought to hear some sort of discussion amongst them (on disc, or off). if they remain ambivalent they should form an opinion!
>>than those that identify w/ the fringe of the diaspora? However, shouldnÆt we expect some sort of political discourse in a Radical group of artists?
>
>No, I don't think so.
now we've gotten somewhere. we can continue the argument, but it seems to have wandered a ways from the original question, and from appropriate zorn-list content. our argument now is "what is the role of art in society." i understand your view, but i disagree. i do expect political discourse in a group of Radical anythings, and frankly, Zorn and the RJCS falls short of radicalism in any meaningful sense. yes, the SOUND is radical, but it's fartin' in the wind as my grandfather would say. Zorn is a musical giant to me, but narrows his scope too much, becoming a midget on the z-axis.
<DIV>A trumpeter friend of mine who likes Bill Dixon a lot and was looking forward to one of their concerts HATED the concert. Maybe that's a strong word, but he was vastly disappointed. -mm</DIV>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">A CD of "That's the Way I Feel Now" was mentioned a while back by Verve as
<BR>scheduled for this year, but seems to have fallen off their release
<BR>schedule. Again. Hold on to your vinyl copy...
<BR>
<BR>Alan Lankin
<BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#0000a0" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SCRIPT" FACE="Comic Sans MS" LANG="0">True. I just inquired about this recently in a shop and evidently it never
<BR>even got as far as a release date. I'm glad I was lucky enough to find the
<BR>old A&M (slightly abridged) single CD version though!
>I've read my Chomsky. (Yawn. Next.) And yeah, the UN makes a lot of
>resolutions about a lot of stuff with little effect.
Yawn - hundreds of thousands of people are driven from their homes. Yawn - water rights stolen from an entire people. Yawn - unequivocal international (except US) condemnation of all of this.
http://www.zmag.org/meastwatch/israeleth1.htm
>Why on earth should they have to let us in on what discussions might
>be going on among them privately?! Do you have some odd idea that just
>because people put music on CDs they are forced to bare their thoughts
>on everything to the entire world and to have and publish opinions on
>every topic?
....
>It is unconscionable to belittle their work ("fartin' in the wind" ?!)
>because they choose not to engage a particular topic in a particular
>project.
>I see that you have not addressed environmental pollution or gay rights
>in any of your posts to this list. Thus does the pot call the kettle
>black.
i propose that it is unconscionable to not care, while at the same time contributing to a group of Radical Jewish artists. i haven't addressed environmental pollution because i have not titled my posts as originating from the Radical Anti-Pollution Zorn Fan, or the Militant Queer Zornlist Member. see the difference? radical . . . jewish . . . culture
On Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 01:30:09AM -0000, Millie Gorgon wrote:
> >I've read my Chomsky. (Yawn. Next.) And yeah, the UN makes a lot of
> >resolutions about a lot of stuff with little effect.
> Yawn - hundreds of thousands of people are driven from their homes. Yawn - water rights stolen from an entire people. Yawn - unequivocal international (except US) condemnation of all of this.
> http://www.zmag.org/meastwatch/israeleth1.htm
Yawn - utterly misreading my post. Perhaps the issues are important,
but Chomsky's rhetoric, which I've tried to muddle through since high
school, is the opposite of effective or convincing.
> i propose that it is unconscionable to not care, while at the same time contributing to a group of Radical Jewish artists.
Not having an opinion is not the same as not caring. In fact, if I
*didn't* care, it would be easier to formulate a suave opinion. But
when I take into account what I know and care about both the poets in
Beit Jala with whom I am in touch and my nieces in Herzliya, making an
opinion is much harder.
How about if you actually go over there, live a while, get to know
people on both sides there, and then attempt to form an easy
opinion. I suspect that your moccasins have not yet logged that mile.
> i haven't addressed environmental pollution because i have not titled my posts as originating from the Radical Anti-Pollution Zorn Fan, or the Militant Queer Zornlist Member. see the difference? radical . . . jewish . . . culture
And you still seem to be confusing culture and politics as synonymous,
and having, apparently, a woefully limited view of the extent of culture.
Someone engaging with culture *can* choose to engage with its politics.
Or not. Just as someone engaging with culture can choose to engage
with its cuisine.
And you seem to continue to insist on artists having bizarre
responsibilities because they happen to make music -- a belief that
most, if not all, of the many artists that I know and work with would
find laughable, if not utterly offensive. I may *choose* to make some
political or cultural beliefs known in the course of making art. But
to assume that that's an intrinsic part of being an artist is quite
simply to evince a lack of understanding of what an artist is and
does.
--
|> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <|
>> >I've read my Chomsky. (Yawn. Next.) And yeah, the UN makes a lot of
>> >resolutions about a lot of stuff with little effect.
>> Yawn - hundreds of thousands of people are driven from their homes. Yawn - water rights stolen from an entire people. Yawn - unequivocal international (except US) condemnation of all of this.
>> http://www.zmag.org/meastwatch/israeleth1.htm
>Yawn - utterly misreading my post. Perhaps the issues are important,
>but Chomsky's rhetoric, which I've tried to muddle through since high
>school, is the opposite of effective or convincing.
yeah, you're right, i did misread. itchy typing finger; i fail to see your point about the UN, though.
>> i propose that it is unconscionable to not care, while at the same time contributing to a group of Radical Jewish artists.
>Not having an opinion is not the same as not caring. In fact, if I
>*didn't* care, it would be easier to formulate a suave opinion. But
>when I take into account what I know and care about both the poets in
>Beit Jala with whom I am in touch and my nieces in Herzliya, making an
>opinion is much harder.
this is interesting and is exactly the type of sentiment that might fit well into a political discussion about the Mideast. unfortunately, not even the ambivalence is expressed much of anywhere in the RJC. and it doesn't change the fact that their is no indication of the current Mideast even existing in Zorn's music or the RJC Series (counterexamples?).
>How about if you actually go over there, live a while, get to know
>people on both sides there, and then attempt to form an easy
>opinion. I suspect that your moccasins have not yet logged that mile.
you pegged me right - i'm young. i'm guilty. i've never been to Hebron.
however, i don't wear moccasins. you might be interested to know that young hippy activist types never like me. why are we talking about me?
>> i haven't addressed environmental pollution because i have not titled my posts as originating from the Radical Anti-Pollution Zorn Fan, or the Militant Queer Zornlist Member. see the difference? radical . . . jewish . . . culture
>
>And you still seem to be confusing culture and politics as synonymous,
>and having, apparently, a woefully limited view of the extent of culture.
>Someone engaging with culture *can* choose to engage with its politics.
>Or not. Just as someone engaging with culture can choose to engage
>with its cuisine.
i'm not confusing them - i'm just saying it's better when artists don't make such a clear distinction between art/culture and politics. and that's what we should demand from artists who are central to Radical movements in art before we howl in favor of them. it's funny you mention food- Alvin Curran at least mentions Matzoh in the liner notes to Animal Behavior. but not a squeak about colonization.
>And you seem to continue to insist on artists having bizarre
>responsibilities because they happen to make music -- a belief that
>most, if not all, of the many artists that I know and work with would
>find laughable, if not utterly offensive. I may *choose* to make some
>political or cultural beliefs known in the course of making art. But
>to assume that that's an intrinsic part of being an artist is quite
>simply to evince a lack of understanding of what an artist is and
>does.
could be that the current role of art and behavior of artists is impoverished and useless? and as incredible and beautiful as Zorn's music is, that, in the end, it is nothing but a a series of statements limited within a self-circumscribed community of artists that professes to be, somehow, radical. contrast with rural american folk and blues - there was always subject matter about power and current events; this was how music existed long before the commodified, self-referencing form we consume now.
this will probably be my last response; i think we're both beating our respective dead horses. (with clarinets)
On Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 03:26:06AM -0000, Millie Gorgon wrote:
> this is interesting and is exactly the type of sentiment that might fit well into a political discussion about the Mideast. unfortunately, not even the ambivalence is expressed much of anywhere in the RJC. and it doesn't change the fact that their is no indication of the current Mideast even existing in Zorn's music or the RJC Series (counterexamples?).
One point that I think is being missed is that, as shown by Mandel's
interview with Sharp, the RJC is not really a group, but is a label that
Zorn has given to a series of CDs that Tzadik puts out. There really is
no group to have such an opinion, or even to share a solid ambivalence.
If a collective did exist, this might or might not be an issue that it
chooses to address.
Looking at it from the personal point of view of my own art (yes, a
phrase that feels uncomfortably self-important to type): There are
several issues on which I have quite strong viewpoints (Gee, no one
would guess that from reading my posts *grin*). These rarely come out
in my music, though, and while I used to write poetry on some of the
issues, I've pretty much stopped. Why? Because the tools of art are
often not particularly effective in dealing with the issues. Why write
a string quartet about an issue when a letter, a magazine article, a
protest march, or an election campaign may be more effective?
The statement that "Writing about music is like dancing about
architecture" had a famous B-side, when a movie mogul a long time ago
was asked about the message of his movies: "If you want to send a
message, use Western Union".
Come to think of it, and this might be applicable to some of the work
by the artists in question: I have written, performed, and recorded at
least one piece that was directly prompted by the issues in Israel, in
particular events in Hebron. But, since the music is a bit abstract, I
doubt that would be perceived from the sounds themselves.
That said, I strongly believe, and often quote, John Cage's statement:
"... the performance of a piece of music can be a metaphor of
society, or how we want society to be.... We could make a piece
of music in which we are willing to live."
My particular focus of interest is in improvisation structures (akin
to Zorn's game works) as models for human interaction. So I've worked
a lot with some political issues (some might say from a radical
perspective) within the music that I do. (You can see me rant on at
even greater length on this when my book "Surprise Me with Beauty:
the Music of Human Systems" is published in about a month.)
But it is difficult for music to represent opinions on complex political
issues, and unreasonable to demand that it do so.
> >How about if you actually go over there, live a while, get to know
> >people on both sides there, and then attempt to form an easy
> >opinion. I suspect that your moccasins have not yet logged that mile.
>
> you pegged me right - i'm young. i'm guilty. i've never been to Hebron.
> however, i don't wear moccasins. you might be interested to know that young hippy activist types never like me. why are we talking about me?
OK, context error: this was a reference to the aphorism that "you
cannot truly understand a person until you have walked a mile in his
moccasins."
Why are we talking about ourselves and each other? Because political
beliefs and opinions cannot exist in a vacuum: they are held by
people, and understanding the human context of a person's beliefs is
difficult without understanding the context in which they came about.
> i'm not confusing them - i'm just saying it's better when artists don't make such a clear distinction between art/culture and politics. and that's what we should demand from artists who are central to Radical movements in art before we howl in favor of them. it's funny you mention food- Alvin Curran at least mentions Matzoh in the liner notes to Animal Behavior. but not a squeak about colonization.
Ah, but note that "Animal Behaviour" is not part of the Radical Jewish
Culture series.
You see, there is no evidence that the artists are making any such
distinction. To make a distinction implies a conscious consideration
of the issue and a willful refusal to deal with it. Rather, it just is
not a part of the pieces that are in the series.
How would you have addressed the issues within, say, Shelley Hirsch's
"O Little Town of East New York", Richard Teitlebaum's "Golem", or
any of the many textless works in the series?
And have you considered working with artists to develop a piece which
does address your concerns, and submitting it to Zorn? I strongly
suspect that if such a piece came his way and met his artistic
standards (and budget), he would be quite open to placing it in the
series.
> could be that the current role of art and behavior of artists is impoverished and useless?
To paraphrase Keepnews again, "Useless to whom?"
Some might say that one feature of "art" is that it tends not to be
"useful".
> and as incredible and beautiful as Zorn's music is, that, in the end, it is nothing but a a series of statements limited within a self-circumscribed community of artists that professes to be, somehow, radical.
Would the work be more acceptable if, for example, they had termed it "Contemporary Jewish Culture"? Is it a matter of a feeling of ownership of the term "radical"?
> contrast with rural american folk and blues - there was always subject matter about power and current events; this was how music existed long before the commodified, self-referencing form we consume now.
But, on the other hand, why would one possibly want to limit art to
the discussion of these issues?
An examination of musics outside those of contemporary and rural
America (as well as a closer examination of just those rural
materials) might prove surprising in its range. While some have sung
of current events and power, many sang of love, of work, of family, of
religion, of mortality, and of every aspect of human life, as well as
the huge amounts of instrumental musics without topics. To say that
only the corner of music concerning "power and current events" existed
is to evince a lack of information about the real range of these
musics.
> this will probably be my last response; i think we're both beating our respective dead horses. (with clarinets)
I suspect that are horses are still alive, and may yet be capable of
traveling in compatible directions.
--
|> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <|
<html><div style='background-color:'><DIV>>From: stephen.fruitman@idehist.umu.se (Stephen Fruitman) <BR>> <BR>>Just my last two cents on the Zitt-Gorgon discussion: <BR>> <BR>> >Chomsky <BR>> <BR>>A brilliant linguist but bizarre and tendentious loose cannon as far as his <BR>>media criticism and involvement in Middle East rhetoric is concerned. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Really? How so? And why a "loose cannon?" Spend any time with his texts and you would be hard pressed to conclude that he's motivated by anything less than reason and rigor in his arguments. But of course it's the conclusions that trouble people the most. And they should. But the evidence is all there if one bothers to take a look.</DIV>
<DIV><BR>> <BR>>And btw, did you all know that Chomsky was a passionate Zionist in the <BR>>forties, wanted to go and fight around 1948? His parents introduced him to <BR>>a major linguist instead and his energies were directed elsewhere. Not sure <BR>>when his stance changed. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Perhaps the sixties or earlier, after he had received a university education. More recently he's been accused of being an anti-semite for his opposition to Israeli policy toward the Palestinians. That's a laugher if there ever was one.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>IMO, the arguments against Zorn's Radical Jewish Culture project are misplaced. It's clear that Zorn has something eles in mind in his use of "radical" in this context.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>But we should be careful not to confuse cultural zionism with political zionism in any case.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>A recent quote from Chomsky on the Z-Net is below. I'd like to see how this representation of the sources of the conflict suggest that he's a "loose cannon."</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>"<FONT face=Arial><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Times">There is an official US position ù it was reiterated just yesterday by US ambassador Martin Indyk. He said we do not believe in rewarding violence. That was a stern admonition to the Palestinians yesterday, and there are many others like it. And itÆs easy to assess the validity of that claim. So letÆs assess it just in the obvious way. The Al-Aqsa Intifada, the violence that Indyk deplores, began on September 29th. ThatÆs the day after Ariel Sharon, now prime minister, went to the Haram Al-Sharif, the Temple Mount, with about a thousand soldiers. That passed more or less without incident, surprisingly. But the next day, which was Friday, there was a huge army presence as people left the mosque after prayers; there was some stone throwing and immediate shooting by the Israeli army and Border Patrol, which left about a half a dozen Palestinians killed and over a hundred wounded. ThatÆs September 29th. On October 1st, Israeli military helicopters, or to be precise US military helicopters with Israeli pilots, sharply escalated the violence, killing two Palestinians in Gaza. On October 2nd, military helicopters killed 10 people in Gaza, wounded 35. On October 3rd, helicopters were attacking apartment complexes and other civilian targets. And so it continued. By early November, the helicopters were being used for targeted political assassinations.</SPAN></FONT>
<P class=MsoPlainText><FONT face=Arial><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Times">And how did the US react? Well, the US reaction is interestingùand thatÆs us remember; we can control this if we choose. In mid September, before the fighting started, the US sent a new shipment of advanced attack helicopters to Israel. Also in mid September, there were joint exercises of the US Marines and elite units of the Israeli army, the IDFùtraining exercises for re-conquest of the occupied territories. The role of the Marines was to provide new advanced equipment that Israel didnÆt have and training in usage of it and techniques. ThatÆs mid September.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoPlainText><FONT face=Arial><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Times">On October 3rd ù that is the day that the press was reporting that military helicopters were attacking apartment complexes and killing dozens of people ù on October 3rd, the Israeli press announced and then the international press repeated that the US and Israel had reached a deal ù the biggest deal in a decade ù for dispatch of US military helicopters to Israel. The next day leading military journals reported that this included new advanced attack helicopters and parts for the former helicopters, which would increase the capacity to attack civilian targets. Incidentally the Israeli defense ministry announced that they cannot produce helicopters. They donÆt have the capacity so they have to get them from the United States. On October 19th, Amnesty International issued a report calling on the United States not to send military helicopters to Israel under these circumstancesùone of a series of Amnesty International reports."</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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>I have written, performed, and recorded at least one piece that was directly prompted by the issues in Israel, in particular events in Hebron. But, since the music is a bit abstract, I doubt that would be perceived from the sounds themselves. That said, I strongly believe, and often quote, John Cage's statement: "... the performance of a piece of music can be a metaphor of society, or how we want society to be.... We could make a piece of music in which we are willing to live." My particular focus of interest is in improvisation structures (akin to Zorn's game works) as models for human interaction. So I've worked a lot with some political issues (some might say from a radical perspective) within the music that I do.
i fully agree with the Cage quote; but it still bothers me that we have such a limitation to metaphor. music and speech are already symbolic, why must we always write in meta-symbols/metaphor? NWA said "Fuck Tha Police." Hardcore is more of a physical (non-symbolic) assault on the listener than anything else. why not, at least occasionally, say what you mean. like in Chadbourne's protest tunes. it's limiting not to!
>> >How about if you actually go over there, live a while, get to know
>>people on both sides there, and then attempt to form an easy
> >opinion. I suspect that your moccasins have not yet logged that mile.
> > you pegged me right - i'm young. i'm guilty. i've never been to Hebron.
> >however, i don't wear moccasins. you might be interested to know that
> >young hippy activist types never like me. why are we talking about me?
>OK, context error: this was a reference to the aphorism that "you cannot truly understand a person until you have walked a mile in his moccasins."
That is funny - i sure make myself look stupid sometimes. (please, no cheap shots, e.g. "it's your arguments that make you look even more stupid, stupid.")
>> contrast with rural american folk and blues - there was always subject matter about power and current events; this was how music existed long before the commodified, self-referencing form we consume now.
>But, on the other hand, why would one possibly want to limit art to the discussion of these issues? . . . While some have sung of current events and power, many sang of love, of work, of family, of religion, of mortality, and of every aspect of human life, as well as the huge amounts of instrumental musics without topics. To say that only the corner of music concerning "power and current events" existed is to evince a lack of information about the real range of these musics.
precisely, folk musics are about all of those things -and what's the missing category from the RJC Series? - which certainly is about all of those things you listed, EXCEPT current events/politics (and maybe work...)
(Fruitman sed:)
>stinks. Furthermore, upon ratification of Israel┤s right to exist by the UN and the subsequent wars of 1948 and 1967, some 800,000 Jews residing in Arab lands were deported. In the crass realpolitik of this tiny patch of land, nobody┤s hands are clean.
(right, the Palestinians have dirty hands cuz they no longer have access to water in which to clean them..) didn't most of those 800,000 Jews emigrate (by choice) to Israel because their homeland was founded? don't forget that in 1967 the UN ordered Israel to withdrawal from occupied territories; 34 years later, they've refused to comply. it's simple, direct, forced colonization; who besides the US and Israel approves???
& i concur w/ Bill Ashline about his comments on Chomsky...
>Finally: I believe this debate really got hung up by the word "Radical". Had Zorn called his series "the Jewish Cultural Renaissance" (a term coined by Martin Buber to describe roughly what we┤re talking about), I don┤t believe we┤d have any problems, no?
generally, we wouldn't. it's not so much a hangup as that is what the debate was (WAS!) about. i have differing expectations when considering a Radical group and Cultural Renaissance group. the latter sounds flaky to me (no offense to Buber, there wasn't any token/commodified multiculturalism around when he coined the phrase) - the quality and the content of the RJC would have exceeded my expectations if that were its title. also, i'm picking on Zorn only because he has these pretensions about radicalism while he's at a high point in his bourgeois respectability. Spy v Spy made people flee from the venue.
(Zitt again (1st line is me):)
>> could be that the current role of art and behavior of artists is impoverished and useless?
>To paraphrase Keepnews again, "Useless to whom?" Some might say that one feature of "art" is that it tends not to be "useful".
useless to whom? - useless to the regular person! ever read Zappa's lecture to the American Society of University Composers about the current role of the composer in the US? (it's in the Real Frank Zappa Book)- "why do people continue to compose music, and even pretend to teach each others how to do it, when they already know the answer? Nobody gives a fuck."
i revert to my former (slightly amended) statement:
could it be that the current role of art and behavior of artists is impoverished and useless? and as incredible and beautiful as Zorn's music is, that, in the end, it is nothing but a a series of statements limited within a self-circumscribed community of artists that professes to be, somehow, radical. this is politically sanitized for musicians and polite bourgeois only. contrast with rural american folk and blues - there was always subject matter about power and current events integrated within other human topics; this was how music existed long before the commodified, self-referencing escapism we consume now.
then again, someone who tells Vaclav Havel, Madeline Albright and Lou Reed to SHUT THE FUCK UP! can't be all that non-political....
ok that's that's really the last of my input this time. boing!
<P>Radical Jewish Culture = Getting to the roots of what it means to be Jewish in perhaps a non-normative counterintuitive manner (an reconfiguration and rethinking of cultural and ethnic identity)<BR><BR></P><BR><BR><BR>----------- </DIV>Interviewer: "If you had to give the world one gift, what would it be?"
<DIV></DIV>Pablo Neruda: "The best gift would be the restoration of a true democracy in the United States. In other words, the elimination of regressive forces in that country who spill blood in faraway lands. A great country like the United States, divested of its political and economic arrogance, would be a grand gift for the world."
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>"Intellectual alienation is a creation of middle class society. What I call middle-class society is any society that becomes rigidified in predetermined forms, forbidding all evolution, all gains, all progress, all discovery. I call middle class a closed society in which life has no taste, in which the air is tainted, in which ideas and men are corrupt....I am not a prisoner of history. I should not seek there for the meaning of my destiny. I should constantly remind myself that the real "leap" consists of introducing invention into existence. In the world through which I travel, I am endlessly creating myself."--Frantz Fanon
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>"The idea of revolution should not disappear. It means that the idea of subversion is synonymous with the defense of liberty in music. It is what Ornette sums up saying ?Remove the caste system from sound ? It is an important idea, potentially rich and in which I find completely my way. Because we are all prisoners of mind trends like : ½How are we supposed to perceive music ? ?what is the value of music in connection with our present society ?; ½will everybody like it ?; ?will this record be sold by millions ?; ½critics say that this record is great and that this other one is rubbish ? All these events happen before hearing one note ! And it conditions the judgment. But music is something else, something that you can never touch. Without all this propaganda, everybody could freely listen to it, according to his own experience."--Bill Laswell
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>"...it is easy to find a type of machine to correspond to each society, not because machines are determinant, but because they express social forms capable of engendering and using them."--Gilles Deleuze
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>"It is part of the mechanism of domination to forbid recognition of the suffering it produces, and there is
<DIV></DIV>a straight line of development between the gospel of happiness and the construction of camps of extermination so far off in Poland that each of our own countrymen can convince himself that he cannot hear the screams of
<DIV></DIV>pain."--Theodor Adorno
<DIV></DIV>
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I think your estimation of Napalm Death's trajectory is completely fair, Michael, and I don't mind that you dismiss 'Harmony Corruption,' since I have problems with that one, too (uneven writing, bad sound, less effective drumming).
But I would like to reiterate that the new 'Enemy of the Music Business' is a return to form for the band - it's up there with 'Utopia Banished' as regards the latter-day albums. I've heard that said about the last two discs prior to this one, but this time it's really true - plus, like I mentioned yesterday, the sound is a definite improvement.
Also, I would point out that it's no longer worth seeking out the old 'Peel Sessions' CD put out through Dutch East India. The three Peel Sessions from that disc (all with the Dorrian/Steer lineup, if I remember correctly), plus a later session with a four-piece version of the current band (Greenaway, Pintado, Embury and Herrera, I think, but I'm not typing this at home), are all available on the 'Complete BBC Sessions' disc that was issued last year.
'Leaders Not Followers' is pretty great, I'll agree.
>Lucky! I've been looking for good metal shows on the
>radio, even though I don't listen to it all that much.
> It's good to know what's going on out there...
It won't help you in the car, but Seton Hall University's WSOU webcasts at www.wsou.net - they mix up all kinds of stuff, from classic metal to nu-metal crap.
New York University's WNYU-FM broadcasts and netcasts "Hellhole" from 7:30-9 p.m. Eastern Standard Time on Tuesday nights. It's a good way to hear some new stuff and the occasional interview. (www.wnyu.org)
That's all I know. Non-commercial stations are the savior of non-commercial metal on the air - I grew up listening to one such show on Houston's KPFT, before the station got gelded into the granola-munching adult-alternative NPR-wannabe travesty it is today.
In a message dated Wed, 29 Aug 2001 5:40:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, "William York" <william_york@hotmail.com> writes:
> argghh. how could i forget sigh??? possibly the ultimate weird metal band
> today. their new album, 'imaginary sonicscape', has more jaw-droppingly
> baffling moments on it than anything i've heard in a long time. also great
> songwriting (esp. if you like thin lizzy, '80s thrash metal, etc), lavish
> production on the level of queen or recent mr. bungle, and a definite
> zorn/zappa influence (though sigh is not as hyper as naked city, and not
> sarcastic like zappa). one of the albums of the year! (in my bedroom, at
> least.)
>
Hmmm...the first couple of tunes at my local record shoppe sounded much like the Sigh CD I *do* own (title?). I bought it because the "avant-garde" description was liberally thrown around in a short review I read about the album in the Century Media catalog. Sounded like fairly tame metal with a few sax solos thrown in. Maybe I should give it another try...
The date for the Necks gig (and all the other Australian music coming as part of "Next Wave Down Under") is not yet on the website, and actually has not been announced as yet. The note on the website says to check back "in September" for exact details.
I'll be happy to post exact information as soon as it hits my desk.
Steve Smith
ssmith36@sprynet.com
JonAbbey2@aol.com wrote:
> does anyone (Steve?) know when the Necks show at BAM in October is? it's
conceivable that the info is on their web site, but I certainly couldn't find
