<P>can anyone tell anything about the coming soon "the gift" on tzadik? is it new music or just a new release, or a collection of stuff like "taboo & exile"? it should be interesting, anyway.</P>
<DIV></DIV>
<P>doron (hebrew speakers will understand my interest...) <BR></P>
<DIV></DIV><br clear=all><hr>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at <a href="http://www.hotmail.com">http://www.hotmail.com</a>.<br></p></html>
Hi, Since this was subject of a (short) thread some time back some people might be interested to know that Kill Rock Stars is reissuing the Liliput two-CD collection at the end of this month. A brief glance at the track listing looks identical to the earlier one but I don't know if the booklet will be the same.
Does anybody know a good source to mail order world music releases. I greatly miss Original Music that John Storm Roberts ran, especially the nice catalogs with reviews of stuff you never heard about elsewhere. But I haven't found anything comparable (& Original's selection was always pretty limited anyway). Descarga looks OK for Latin but I've never ordered from them. Stern's in the US doesn't have a catalog and the website is a mess anyway. Any ideas?
> Does anybody know a good source to mail order world music releases.
Check out www.worldmusicinstitute.org. They're a world music concert-presenting organization here in NYC, but they sell discs as a sideline.
The online holdings are slim (about 1000 titles, with about 100 new ones added every month or so). But they've got a print catalog with close to 5000 titles. They do carry numerous hard-to-find imports. They list selections by nationality/region, so you don't have to be an expert to find what you're after. And they've even got handy starter kits of 25, 50 or 100 selected discs to get you started (not that I think you would need that!).
Don't know if it completely solves your problem, but worth a look and certainly a good cause.
Steve Smith
ssmith36@sprynet.com
NP - Lamb of God, "Confessional," 'New American Gospel' (Prosthetic/Metal Blade)
Has anybody heard the album by Clinic? Is it as good as the Village Voice review and any upcoming US release (since Forced Exposure's $17 discourages experimenting).
It was a various artist soundtrack IIRC. I'm pretty sure that Autechre contributed a couple of songs to it also.
The original poster mentioned having difficulty finding this original soundtrack (OST.) For the most part, OSTs have rather short lifespans of being "in print.". The best rule to follow is to pick them up sooner rather than later...
--
=dg=
In a message dated Tue, 6 Feb 2001 9:29:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, BlackBook78@aol.com writes:
<< I dont know if anyone else has posted this, Im quickly losing track of the
posts this list accumulates. Massive Attack did the soundtrack for PI I
>The latter is a discount site, with most releases at half price
I've ordered from Cyber Music Surplus several times and they're pretty good (they once sent an incorrect Boswell Sisters disc due to a cataloging error but it was so inexpensive it wasn't worth returning). Their inventory does sometimes change pretty quickly: there were once quite a few interesting looking field recording albums that vanished. The main drawback is that there's usually only a track listing and no descriptions. Their free shipping policy has been changed to orders over $30 which is still a good deal.
Also worth checking out is Berkshire Record Outlet (broinc.com), mostly classical cut-outs but some jazz, world, etc. I've used them for years and they have some Ocora and Nimbus releases fairly inexpensively. Just be careful of the labels you've never heard of; some are bare-bones budget releases that have no booklets jsut an insert card.
In a message dated 2/7/01 1:38:14 PM Eastern Standard Time,
keith@pfmentum.com writes:
> Subj: Curses, I Say
> Date: 2/7/01 1:38:14 PM Eastern Standard Time
> From: keith@pfmentum.com (s~Z)
> Sender: owner-zorn-list@lists.xmission.com
> Reply-to: keith@pfmentum.com (s~Z)
> To: zorn-list@lists.xmission.com (Zorn Again List)
>
>
>
>
> Curses on those who recommended
> David Bowie's _EART HL I NG_.
>
> All of the great music out there,
> and I cannot take this damned
> recording out of my CD pl a yer.
>
> Oh God do I know that feeling! The last one I think was James' Millionaires
> CD....just brilliant, the best of their career so far. And of course, no US
> .
Dale.
--part1_85.6921528.27b2f6cd_boundary
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT COLOR="#8080c0" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SCRIPT" FACE="Comic Sans MS" LANG="0"><B>In a message dated 2/7/01 1:38:14 PM Eastern Standard Time,
Subject: Re: Request For Ambient Music Recommendations
Date: 10 Feb 2001 16:21:11 -0600
On Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 11:58:06PM +1100, Adam Rock wrote:
> The recent thread pertaining to avant garde electronica served to reignite my interest in ambient music. I really enjoy Aphex Twin's "Selected Ambient Works Vol 2," Brian Eno's "Apollo: Atmospheres and Soundtracks", and certain tracks from Dead Voices On Air's "Piss Frond." Does anyone have any suggestions as to where I might go from here?
Hmm. It depends on what you call "ambient" and what is packaged as such.
Be careful what you buy, since most of what I run across nowadays that
claims to be "ambient" violates the idea of a floating music, equally
listenable and ignorable, by having metronomic electronic beat tracks
that pound on the head and force the listener into their groove (to use
the term very loosely). It's a horrific misuse of the term, which for
some reason has gotten widely accepted. Caveat emptor.
--
|> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <|
Since I haven't seen his work discussed here before, or just didn't notice it, I was wondering what peoples thoughts were on Pattons work. Not only his specific solo works, but Faith No More, Fantomas, and Mr. Bungle. Is he working on any new projects at the moment?
Subject: Re: David Soldier and the Thai Elephant Orchestra
Date: 13 Feb 2001 11:51:13 -0500
One of the network evening news programs also had some footage of this about 2-3 weeks ago. I think it was ABC. They were showing the orchestra at work and had interviews with Soldier and curious tourists who were fascinated by this.
Agreed! I've had the pleasure about 2-3 times in the last year or so and it really does make a difference. In everyone's favorite series, Jazz, there was a great quote (Giddins I think) about how Taylor's demanded that the audience come to it rather than the other way
around (as it usually is with other music).
Best,
Jason
--
Perfect Sound Forever
online music magazine
perfect-sound@furious.com
http://www.furious.com/perfect
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<pre>Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 14:23:59 -0800
The best way to 'get' Cecil is to see him live.</pre>
</blockquote>
<p><br>Agreed! I've had the pleasure about 2-3 times in the last
year or so and it really does make a difference. In everyone's favorite
series, Jazz, there was a great quote (Giddins I think) about how Taylor's
demanded that the audience come to it rather than the other way around
I think Patton will be recognized as one of pop music's most important figures of the 1990's. Almost all of the Radio Heavy Metal of the past couple years owes a great deal to this man. I don't understand why he's not really getting his credit. Korn, Limp Bizkit--they're all just bad Mike Patton rip offs. Don't you agree?
No, that was Adam Shatz. Tony's usual beat is R&B reissues.
Steve Smith
ssmith36@sprynet.com
NP - new James Newton chamber music collection on New World
(PS anybody who's mailed me in the last few days and hasn't heard back - please excuse the tardiness, my computer died on Sunday - yes, this is a second computer this year...)
kurt_gottschalk@scni.com wrote:
>
is this the same guy that wrote that piece of tripe trashing zorn in the times a
year and a half ago or so? and the more recent mistake-filled sun ra/jazz
reissues piece? he's got a piece in last sunday's times on electronic music --
no less interesting and informative than the others.
kg
np: aretha franklin - queen of soul: the atlantic recordings (disc 4)
In a message dated Fri, 9 Feb 2001 2:26:40 AM Eastern Standard Time, Steve Smith <ssmith36@sprynet.com> writes:
<< Hi, Skip:
> It would seem to me that, if a critic is going to do an essay that purports
> to be in depth, you should care deeply for the work about which you're
> writing, and should have some kind of high regard for the work in question
> (the better to make your points about which are the highs, which are the
> lows).
>>But isn't it equally valid to write a strong in-depth negative criticism of a
work or body of art, as well? Don't we render opinions both positive and
negative on this list every day?
Yes, we do, but not under the guise of a 'critic.' Discussing opinions and positives and negatives of various artists on a list like this does not equate to a critic or music journalist getting his rocks off in dismissing outright a huge body of work that has touched and influenced a large amount of people.
Essentially, I don't consider negative criticism, in a journalistic form, of art, to be valid. Positive criticism, even with caveats here and there from even ardent critic admirers (inevitable but not required) at least has the power to turn a reader on to something. Negative criticism merely 'presents the other side of the coin,' as if its necessary just because there is one.
> When I read a comment like "after reading this essay, I sold my collection of
> 40+ Zappa albums", I have to wonder about why somebody bought those albums in
> the first place.
>>Oh, that's simple, and I think I was clear about it. Those records meant a
great deal to me for a lot of years, and then, eventually, they didn't. I was a
huge fan, and then I wasn't. The only point I'm continuing to try to make
regarding ME and the essay is that seeing such an opinion in print finally made
me feel that my discontent was valid. At the time I was much more
impressionable, and definitely more concerned about being "in" on anything
construed to be important or significant, especially important with a whiff of
outsider appeal. When I read the Penman essay, I felt as though it was okay for
me to have come to a similar conclusion, even if not quite as vitriolic.
> And when I read a comment to the effect "I probably needed
> his music when I was seventeen, but now I'm past that", I find it even more
> objectionable.
>>That's a fair reaction to an inflammatory and extremely subjective assertion on
Penman's part.
> Frank had his low periods just as anybody else has had when
> the make a ton of records over years. And, believe me, I'll jump over ten
> "Titties And Beer"'s to get next to thirty seconds of a "REDNZL". What made
> me laugh in jr high doesn't work so well anymore.
>>The only real difference I see between what you're saying and what I'm saying is
that for me the music itself holds little interest anymore, either. It's not
just that the personal philosophy of the man turned me against the music. It's
not that at all. If the music still held any appeal to me, I'm sure I could do
exactly what you're suggesting - overlook the bad and continue to celebrate the
good. Maybe I'd even have my old copy of 'Shut Up and Ply Your Guitar,' or I
could buy a CD burner and create my own custom compilations minus the jokey
stuff. But eventually I personally found the music just didn't say anything to
me anymore.
> On the other hand, the musical imagination, depth of craft, and personal
> vision that governs the best parts of FZ's work -- and there are certainly a
> great many such moments -- has earned him a great deal of respect, and to
> dismiss the stuff outright is kind of crass.
>>It's crass, but it's a valid piece of criticism. No matter how much you, I, we,
or the world may respect an artist and his/her work, there will always be
someone who does not. And they are just as entitled to sound off. And you are
equally entitled to say they're full of shit. Further, the respect you posit
for Zappa's work is widely-held, but hardly universal. It seems stronger here
than it is in the real world because we are a large closet entirely populated
with people who appreciate challenging music. But even when you have such a
microcosm, there are bound to be schisms. We see them every day in the subject
of Zorn and countless others.
Frankly, crass dismissal like that is not a valid piece of criticism, and just because they get paid to do it for a high profile magazine does not mean they're entitled to it. People certainly are entitled to their opnions, but in the context of music journals it has a purely destructive effect, and one that serves no purpose but to occupy its own space.
> Can you transcribe "Inca Roads"? Can you
> deal with the times signature stuff hands-on? It's unwise to dismiss stuff
> you can't do. Not liking something is one thing, but dismissal is another.
>>Here we're getting into the age old theory that those who can't do shouldn't
write about those who can. It just doesn't work. There have always been and
will always be those who cannot perform music or create art on a professional
level who nonetheless are able to write about such activities in a lucid,
informed, and deeply-invested way.
In a sense it does work, at least in the sense of being familiar with certain kinds of music. Zappa himself made a point, I forget where, bemoaning the fact that critics felt entitled to slam his music without going to the trouble to check out the touching-off points that he used himself. That is, they obviously hadn't listened to, or even heard, Elliott Carter, Webern, even Stravinsky, and they then turn around and criticize something like Greggary Peccary with zero awareness of the precedents for it. Honestly, pat dismissals such as Penman's merely further justify my penchant for never taking any music critic completely seriously.
musical context to make me feel like he does know his subject and a body of
other music in which to form a context for critique. And similarly, no matter
his originality and distinction, Zappa worked as a musician in a pop music
idiom, rendering what he sang as important in some ways as what he played. The
music works on both levels, and so does the critique.
I tend to disagree with the notion that the mere presence of words automatically makes them as 'important' as the accompanying music.
>>And I can't speak for Penman here, obviously, but yeah, if you handed me the
sheet music for "Inca Roads" I could certainly read it, and if I hadn't stopped
playing seven years ago there's even a chance I could stumble my way badly
through a performance, although not anywhere close to the hyper-talented
musicians Zappa generally employed to deliver his material. People still say
some very nice things about my criticism that makes me blush with happiness,
which makes me feel that the years of study and practice really do make a
difference. But that's really beside the point, especially when you're dealing
with music in a pop context and with a sociological view rather than the view of
strict musicological analysis.
> But Zappa is a great target, because the way he has been painted as a
> musician and as a thinker is unfriendly to a lot of people who hold their
> favorite stuff as the True Grail Of Musical Progressivism.
>>Didn't Zappa do exactly the same thing as regards his own favorite stuff, from
Varese to doo-wop? Don't we all, to a greater or lesser degree? We admire and
defend what we see to be great, but we don't all have to agree. I've got a
friend who's a classical composer of distinction as well as an outstanding
journalist, and he says that he has little use for Beethoven's symphonies. I
find that frankly astonishing personally, but it doesn't make me change my
regard for him and it doesn't make me feel a need to change his mind ultimately,
either. We can all agree to disagree. There's room for everyone.
I definitely agree with this, but I feel its not the issue at hand. My guess as to what Skip is saying is that the feathers of the people who dislike Zappa for his potty humor and the non-serious aspects of his work are especially ruffled when so many people praise his intellect.
> I'm thirty-five and don't feel like I've outgrown Zappa, Tower Of Power, Uri
> Caine's quartet with Joel Levine, the Minutemen, Bill Evans, or any of the
> other stuff that got my rocks off when I was seventeen. And there's probably
> no essay ever to be written by a critic that will make me think I was wrong
> for loving any music I love.
>>Once again, I personally never said I "outgrew" Zappa per se (in the sense of an
arbitrary cut off date after which he should be declared verboten). And yes,
that does seem to be what "Poison" Penman's positing - but I read this as a
literary shorthand that reveals his take on the mental/emotional level of his
caricature Zappa fan. It's rude, but it does get his point across succinctly,
and is bound to piss off fans while at the same time causing complete agreement
among others. Me, I continue to say there's enough room for both views.
I don't, however, think there's anything necessarily wrong with moving beyond
music that once meant something to you and now doesn't. I'm 35 and I still
listen to King Crimson, Bob Marley, the Clash, Black Flag, the Butthole Surfers,
and Ornette Coleman, as when I was 17 or 18. But you won't catch me listening
to the Osmonds as when I was 7, Journey as when I was 13, or even ELP as when I
was 17. Some things you do leave behind, but you do it for personal reasons,
not because someone said you should or had to.
This I totally agree with as well, though how is that different from 'outgrowing' something, other than being semantically different. Admittedly, and admirably, as well, I understand the avoidance of the word 'outgrow' so as not to offend those people over the age of 17 who still love Zappa.
>>I reiterate that the Penman essay was a sort of catalyst that helped me reach my
own conclusion and feel some validation for being out of step with countless
others - and remember, the essay is only five years old, which means I only
encountered it in my late 20s, a time at which my many Zappa albums were going
unlistened to while I strangely felt compelled to continue buying each and every
new one that came along, listen once, and shelve it. Clearly there was already
something wrong for me. My response was an entirely personal reaction and one
that I would never choose to impose on anyone else.
Ok, and I at least don't feel imposed upon, but reading things such as the Penman article, or most things John McDonough writes for DownBeat, do really feel like an imposition, and I feel that they have no place in music journalism.
>> But it does speak to the
importance of having a diversity of opinion in print. If all we saw was
officially-sanctioned and ratified "truth," where would that leave us?
Well, since people so often get so up in arms about 'well, that's your opinion' when expressing distaste for someone's thoughts on a subject, we'd obviously be aware of a writers's prejudices and predilictions (sp?) after a couple reads anyway.
>>And who
would we appoint to be arbiters of that truth? Critics don't deliver the
gospel. They state an opinion, back it up in argument, make a case, and then
leave us to decide for ourselves. The most important function they can serve is
to cause us to reflect.
Well, then you're among a rare minority of critics, then. The vast majority of negative reviews or assessments I read tend to be prejudices already formed about an artist that are then mutated into 'arguments' that really onyl cram that prejudice down the throat of the reader
Or, if they can't decide whether or not they like something, they waffle on the whole issue and give 3 stars or some sort of average assessment instead of saying 'I'm not sure.' In fact, I would love it if more critics DID say that! Does anybody really think that the altermative we have now is better? At least a big 'I don't know' or 'I don't fully understand' would serve to pique curiousity on a subject, something that I feel should be the true objective of music journalism anyway.
-matt mitchell, who wrote part 1 also, and forgot to identify himself, sorry.
Subject: What's the list of essentials for Patton?
Date: 14 Feb 2001 10:34:36 -0500
I like that Fantomas project quite a bit. Patton really shows his many voices--which is what I like about him; he has that "Captain Beefheart-Style multi-voice" thing going on. I've only heard one solo record--listened to it once, probably won't again.
Didn't Zappa say something to the effect of: Critics are ignorant to music, and they're writing to an audience that's ignorant about music. I think it's in The Real Frank Zappa Book. I seem to remember his rant against critics as quite funny.
He really hated these guys, and I think he realized early on that they were driven more by profits than opinions or "writing to inform."
>He really hated these guys, and I think he realized early on that >they were driven more by profits than opinions or "writing to >inform."
Yeah, music criticism is an easy path to riches and fame. I remember Robin Leach interviewing Christgau like it was only yesterday and of course Simon Frith had to flee to the Bahamas to avoid those huge British taxes. Hold on, my broker is calling....
Interesting that you mentioned those albums. I recently started my Patton collection with:
Fantomas
Mr. Bungle-Disco Volante
FNM-Angel Dust
I've yet to listen to Fantomas, but I agree with the statements about DV and AD. Five years ago I would have never imagined buying a Faith No More album, and of course the only song that stood out was Epic, which I classified simply as a moderately interesting rock song with a good ending, but didnt necessitate me to buy the entire CD.
Now how do people feel about Funkadelic, particularly "Maggot Brain"?
I like "Pranzo Oltranzista" a bit more than "Adult Themes." Zorn's sax solo on track 6 is one of the highlights among a few others that make obtaining this album essential... Patton also performed a wonderful song on Jerry Hunt's Tzadik release that is amazing! Everyone else on the list seems to have recommended all the other good stuff: Bungle, Fantomas, etc. This is just another voice chiming in...
-That which is Theo "My philosophy, in essense, is the concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute."
An individualist is a man who says: "I will not run anyone else's life, nor let anyone rule mine. I will not rule or be ruled. I will not sacrifice myself for anyone, nor sacrifice anyone to myself." --Ayn Rand.
Do You Yahoo!?
- Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail Personal Address - only $35 a year!
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<ADDRESS> </ADDRESS><BR>
<ADDRESS><STRONG>I like "Pranzo Oltranzista" a bit more than "Adult Themes." Zorn's sax solo on track 6 is one of the highlights among a few others that make obtaining this album essential... Patton also performed a wonderful song on Jerry Hunt's Tzadik release that is amazing! Everyone else on the list seems to have recommended all the other good stuff: Bungle, Fantomas, etc. This is just another voice chiming in...</STRONG></ADDRESS><BR>
<ADDRESS> </ADDRESS><BR><BR><P>-That which is Theo "My philosophy, in essense, is the concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute." </P>
<P>An individualist is a man who says: "I will not run anyone else's life, nor let anyone rule mine. I will not rule or be ruled. I will not sacrifice myself for anyone, nor sacrifice anyone to myself." --Ayn Rand.</P>
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dude....people tend to say that a lot,but we'll never know,that,if FNM never existed,these bands wouldn't...y'know,there was the RHCP,Ludchrist,Bad Brains,Scatterbrain...why FNM is the only one to be mentioned?The only thing I'm sure is that Papa Roach loves FNM...what about the other bands?Although Chino Moreno (Deftones) and John Davis (Korn) said that ONE of their major influences was ''Angel Dust'',and the guys from Slipknot LOVE Patton...I'm still not sure wether FNM was the only one that influenced them...or if he was the major influence behind all nu-metal stuff.
Influences,
Mindless self indulgence
P.S.:By the way...there'll be not just one,but TWO FNM tributes coming up soon...difference is,one of them is made by Bands that are FNM fans,and FNM fans that have bands...which one would YOU buy?
to sum up,Patton's work is very ecletic,so,you might wanna listen to it before buying it....so,here's my two cents:
ftp.bunglefever.com
They have a huge amount of Patton related stuff,all you have to do is pick some...hope it helped.Also,nobody mentioned any of Patton's solo gigs yet,some of them were really good,like Moonraker(the first edition,with DJ Def and Agata from Melt Banana),some stuff he did with the X-ecutioners,a show he did with David Slusser,Willie Winant and John Zorn...and other stuff.Thought you'd would like to know this...
Gigs,
Cuckoo to pieces
>Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 17:08:49 -0500
>Subject: Re: Mike Patton
>From: Rick Lopez <bb10k@velocity.net>
>
>on 2/13/01 4:07 PM, Me at frunobulax@mpinet.net unthinkingly blurted:
>
>> I am a huge fan of Mike Patton's work
>
>Okay kids. Today's assignment:
>
>I've only heard FNM and a few Bungles. What's the list of essentials for
>someone wanting to buy his son a stack of Pattons? (so he can then borrow
I don't think that Zappa's catalog is beyond criticism, but it does deserve more than a glance; it doesn't deserve to be dismissed for its scatalogical content etc.
My problem with the critics: it's too much of a one-sided argument where other opinions are not input into the dialogue as possible answers to the question of "is this good/bad?"; but instead it's a means to strengthen one's own point of view. How often have you read criticism where it's acknowledged that other opinions exist on the matter, but these other opinions are glossed over or discounted as "piss-poor?"
For this reason, I think the discussion group is a better means of understanding the value of a body or piece of work. I think it has some faults in that it's a little one-sided also, but there's a more hermeneutic process where the dialectic is kept alive.
Also, readers should learn to use the critics to their advantage. Readers should learn to recognize those critics who agree with their own opinions, and patronize the publications of these people. And, learn to use the opinions of those that one doesn't agree with--if you know you like everything this critic hates, then use that information to your advantage.
It's pretty pompous to think Brittney Spears has no talent don't you think? I mean, I don't like her, but she can sing and can dance. I think she fits rather well into pop culture--which is apparently what she wants. Just think, in ten/fifteen years, she'll be the next Madonna--steal what everybody's been doing for thirty/forty years, and pretend you invented it. Yes, it will be wonderful when she releases her first improvised album, and cites Derek Bailey as one of her favorites from way back.
On Thu, 15 Feb 2001 10:13:54 -0500, Steve Spangler said:
> My problem with the critics: it's too much of a one-sided argument where other opinions are not input into the dialogue as
> possible answers to the question of "is this good/bad?"; but instead it's a means to strengthen one's own point of view. How
> often have you read criticism where it's acknowledged that other opinions exist on the matter, but these other opinions are
> glossed over or discounted as "piss-poor?"
Agree with you 100%. I think the main excuse for magazines/papers (which isn't entirely dismissable) is that they have a lack of space to print all the reviews they want to in the first place: need room for all those jeans ad, right? I cite this often but it's worth mentioning again that Downbeat would assign two reviewers to cover new Coltrane albums because they realized how polarizing his work was in the music world. Sadly, this trend is rarely, if ever, seen nowadays. The only recent instance I've seen was a spate of Radiohead reviews praising and damning their latest
(I'm in the latter group).
> Also, readers should learn to use the critics to their advantage. Readers should learn to recognize those critics who agree with
> their own opinions, and patronize the publications of these people. And, learn to use the opinions of those that one doesn't
> agree with--if you know you like everything this critic hates, then use that information to your advantage.
My experience is that most people form their opinion from a variety of sources and not just one writer. I see that esp. with movies where people say 'this got good reviews' or 'this got mixed reviews.'
Back to Zappa in particular, there's one good point he made about reviewers that sticks in my mind. A major complaint he had was that people who wrote about his albums never listened to all of them so that they couldn't form a valid opinion of his work. Admittedly, he released a slew of records, going from from '66 to '93 (and beyond now), but he does have a point that if you're going to discuss an artist's work, you should be cognizant of what they've done before, even if it is a huge oeuvre.
we just had Rock In Rio 3 here in Brazil,and,from what I've heard,Britney's show was in playback.Well,some people noticed,she got booed and left off saying that this was her ''worst show ever''.And she also cursed her crew too.Check out napster for a song called ''oops!I think someone left the mic on''.AHEM...anyway....I dunno if she really can sing...you know,with all the technology and stuff,I wouldn't be surprised to know it isn't she who actually sings.
>It's pretty pompous to think Brittney Spears has no talent don't you think? I mean, I don't like her, but she can sing and can dance. I think she fits rather well into pop culture--which is apparently what she wants. Just think, in ten/fifteen years, she'll be the next Madonna--steal what everybody's been doing for thirty/forty years, and pretend you invented it. Yes, it will be wonderful when she releases her first improvised album, and cites Derek Bailey as one of her favorites from way back.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Steve Spangler
>
>-
http://e2893.37.com/Free-E-Card/ <--- You Have A Greeting :)
but that's how it's always been,is't it?I think so...but this brings us to another topic:which labels do you guys think that are really in it for the music,not for the money?I know a few of them that aren't doing this just for pleasure,and I'd have to say that Tzadik,Earache,Relapse and even Ipecac are in it just for the pleasure of seeing obscure stuff that is considered to be ''commercial suicide'' getting listened.Could anyone recommend me any others????
On Thu, Feb 15, 2001 at 10:03:42AM -0800, Fag music wrote:
> Yeah,
> but that's how it's always been,is't it?I think so...but this brings us to another topic:which labels do you guys think that are really in it for the music,not for the money?I know a few of them that aren't doing this just for pleasure,and I'd have to say that Tzadik,Earache,Relapse and even Ipecac are in it just for the pleasure of seeing obscure stuff that is considered to be ''commercial suicide'' getting listened.Could anyone recommend me any others????
I would be surprised if, even at the biggest, most mercenary labels,
you wouldn't find a significant chunk of people who are "in it for the
music". Look at the labels for which, for example, Steve Smith has
written -- RCA and its overseers don't have the indie cred of, say,
Erstwhile, but he's managed to get some good work in there, at least
for a while.
--
|> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <|
Subject: Re: Re: the validity of negative criticism
Date: 15 Feb 2001 13:19:44 -0500
>from Glenn Gould that said something to the effect of the only >worthwhile journalism being advocacy journalism. I realized
Criticism and journalism are not the same thing, though for music and film in today's publishing environment the distinction is often blurred, in good part because there are few outlets for real criticism. So many reviewers are called critics when in fact all they're doing is saying whether something is worth a purchase or admission price. Such consumer advice has its place but it's not often actual criticism. "Advocacy journalism" is almost an oxymoron, basically meaning that journalists should just be writing ad copy. Does the world really need more of that? (For what it's worth I avoid writing negative reviews of obscure albums/films; quite a few friends are musicians and I know how much work goes into even bad music. So what's the point of knocking something that will only be heard by a small circle? But anything really offensive or major-label or moderately well-known is fair game.)
>Maybe, but wouldn't it be more worthwhile for Christgau to attempt >to comment on what Zappa is trying to do, rather than his own knee->jerk assessment, a [...] I seriously doubt that Christgau ever took >the time to check out Zappa's interests before writing
The specific point (and one probably open to argument) is who cares what he was *trying* to do or what his interests are; what he did is really all that matters. Of course neither of us will ever know but descriptions of Christgau's work methods by him and others plus his published work consistently indicate that he actually does pay close attention to the work and to its context. Not to mention that clearly Christgau is far more open-minded than Zappa (something of more importance in a critic than an artist; I've met numerous genuinely excellent musicians with quite limited tastes/interests). It's interesting that in my minor writing career I've received far more complaints about negative things I've written about Zappa than for anything else and that they always begin with "clearly you haven't listened to Zappa's work." I would have thought clearly I had or I couldn't discuss it but the last time I ever responded the Zappa fan had actually heard far less so now I just le!
!
t these pass.
>His oeuvre is as tight as anybody's, rife with cross associations, >allusions, historical relevance, self-reference. If that's not >conceptual, then I don't know what is.
Zappa's music is not conceptual in the way that word is used in the arts. Conceptual art/music is based primarily on idea(s) and often (but not always) lacks any allusions or references. Cage's "4'33"" is perhaps the best known musical example; prepared pianos are not conceptual since the idea is mostly irrelevant to the resulting work. La Monte Young's "Composition 1960 # 5" which consists of letting a butterfly loose in the performance area is conceptual though his extended drone pieces are not. Tony Godfrey's "Conceptual Art" is a nice overview while Alexander Alberro's "Conceptual Art: A Critical Anthology" is a good selection of source material.
I think negative criticism is o.k., but you're right about the wrong critic reviewing certain items. I remember Rolling Stone gave Nirvana's Nevermind album 2 or 3 stars, only to find out later that it was the very definition of a 5 star album--subsequently Nirvana got "Artist of the Year" for their lackluster review.
The problem is that they run the risk of letting the general public miss out on some wonderful things.
And generally, I think of Fight Club when I read reviews--"How's that working out for you....being clever?" I think they're more interested in writing itself and being "fresh" in their language than writing some insightful text. They think "being clever" is being insightful, but I don't necessarily think it is.
I would suggest perhaps a procession in an order such as this:
1. Mr. Bungle (self-titled/Zorn produced -- this is his foundational essence, no less, and more)
2. Faith No More - Angel Dust (contiguous to #1.--perhaps a reaction)
3. Faith No More - King for a Day, Fool for a Lifetime (absolutely timeless and raw, Trey Spruance from Mr. Bungle/Secret Chiefs 3 plays guitar on it, which is why it's their best album.)
4. Mike Patton -- Adult Themes for Voice and Microphone (Tzadik)(his first official noise release, with several connections to early experimental rock vocals, i.e. CAN, and composers vocals, i.e. Xenakis, Henry, Stratos. Recorded on the recent FNM tour in hotel rooms, using only the voice and stuff in the room. Plus, it's a good primer for Disco Volante.
5. Secret Chiefs 3 -- First Grand Constitution and Bylaws: The Enemy of My Enemy is My Friend (Mimicry Records <www.webofmimicry.com>) -- Not Patton, but all others from Bungle plus Eyvind Kang; also crucial to fully and accurately appreciate the non-Patton in Bungle, especially Disco Volante (although Mikey comes out to write stuff like this on California!, aside from usually having a say at some level in most of what he's in).
6. Mr. Bungle--Disco Volante (Warner Bros.)--an eschatology of sorts; the Phoenix's flames become visible.
7. Secret Chiefs 3 -- Second Grand Constitution and Bylaws: Hurqalya.--an anti-eschatology of sorts; the Phoenix is realized as complete flame.
8. Mr. Bungle -- California (Warner Bros.)--a pivot into a serene yet haunting pop "Paradise"; the burning of the Phoenix was but a death-pivot to a commencement.
9. Mike Patton -- Pranzo Oltranzista: Banquet Piece for Five Players (Tzadik) --debut as "composer"; Marrinetti's "Surrealist Cookbook" put to aural-scape; the wingspan of flame is but the breadth of the Sarcophagus of the Social yet to re-animate en feculahemoth.
10. Maldoror -- She (Ipecac Recordings - which is the bloke's own label) Patton with Masami Akita, rendering several B-movie classics en electronique; great primer for Fantomas' debut.
11. Fantomas -- (self-titled; Ipecac Recordings) a group entirely Patton formed and composed, hyperstructured yet extemporaneous, and not surprisingly, has nothing in common with any neo-metal.
Hope this helps. I completely owe my discovery of experimental music to this man. Were it not for him, I would have not so easily sat down to Darin Gray and Jim O'Rourke sets at Cicero's here in St. Louis back in '95. I would not have done a billion things as soon or easily--which was fucking late as hell anyway, heh heh.
Bob Galloway
<www.geocities.com/captaincaptain777/>
> Re: Mike Patton> on 2/13/01 4:07 PM, Me at frunobulax@mpinet.net unthinkingly blurted:
>
> > I am a huge fan of Mike Patton's work
>
> Okay kids. Today's assignment:
>
> I've only heard FNM and a few Bungles. What's the list of essentials for
> someone wanting to buy his son a stack of Pattons? (so he can then borrow
> them...)
>
> Thanks for responses,
> RL
.com
I know, appealing modern music is lacking, thats why
you should take me, Bob, for what it's worth and visit
www.webofmimicry.com and listen to everything you can
right now like a good little shopper! And...
HEY! AND PAY NO ATTENTION TO THESE GODDAMN ADS AT THE
Subject: Zappa as a significant influence on Zorn...
Date: 16 Feb 2001 10:38:08 -0500
Do you think Zappa is a major influence, or is it more that they just happen to share major influences? I tend to believe this a little more--although I think Zappa's influential, I think the Varese/Stravinsky/etc. influences are shared more than passed from Zappa to Zorn.
Also, both men seem to be interested in black music along with their--whatever black music is --classical influences. I know that Zappa was inspired by old r&b records and Zorn seems to hold some roots in the old hard bop players.
Do you think this is significant--I'm not sure that I think so.
all I'm sure is that the Mr.Bungle demos that are there are completely legal,since the band said that they didn't want people (i.e the assholes on ebay) to make money out of them,so they spread it over the internet.As for the other stuff,most of it is just bootlegs,so,I guess no one got hurt by this.
Has this list been turned into a Zappa/Patton list? Not that I mind, really... I see no relation or influence between Zorn and Zappa... I must have 40 Zappa albums, 60 Zorn albums, and the relationship seems almost nil... I'm not suggesting that Zorn's never listened to Zappa, but the styles are totally different... Anyone thinking that Zorn and Zappa are alike would probably think that Bill Frisell's Material from '89 to '93 was influenced by Zappa as well... Anyone heard Frisell's "The Lone Ranger" from the Before we were born album? Probably the best 7 and a half minutes of music commited to Analog tape..........
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<ADDRESS> Has this list been turned into a Zappa/Patton list? Not that I mind, really...</ADDRESS>
<ADDRESS> </ADDRESS>
<ADDRESS> I see no relation or influence between Zorn and Zappa... I must have 40 Zappa albums, 60 Zorn albums, and the relationship seems almost nil... I'm not suggesting that Zorn's never listened to Zappa, but the styles are totally different... </ADDRESS>
<ADDRESS> </ADDRESS>
<ADDRESS> Anyone thinking that Zorn and Zappa are alike would probably think that Bill Frisell's Material from '89 to '93 was influenced by Zappa as well... </ADDRESS>
<ADDRESS> </ADDRESS>
<ADDRESS> Anyone heard Frisell's "The Lone Ranger" from the Before we were born album? Probably the best 7 and a half minutes of music commited to Analog tape..........</ADDRESS><p><br><hr size=1><b>Do You Yahoo!?</b><br>
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You don't think there's any relation? I think there's some, but I don't think it filters from Zappa to Zorn; I think they were just interested in similar things. I agree that they don't sound much alike, but you have to admit, they borrow from similar influences--except I don't see Zappa being inspired by Japanese films.
Sorry for the commercial nature of this post, but it is in response to a question someone asked a couple of months ago.
The Derek Bailey/Eddie Prevost duo recording ORE is now available, after a few delays. The label is Arrival Records, based in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada. I won't bother with any sort of review of the disc -- it is Bailey and Prevost, and the result is what is to be expected when you put two musicians of that caliber together. The label is run by a friend of mine, and while brainstorming about marketing issues, we decided to offer it here to zorn list people before it hits any distributor.
So, for a limited time, until deals are made with Cadence, Verge, etc on sales, anyone interested can email arrivalrecords@canada.com and order one for $13 US, shipping included to in North America, $15 US shipped elsewhere. This price will be in effect until the end of February only (when the price will probably jump a couple of dollars).
Also available is the second release on Arrival Records, warp & woof by Montreal guitar/percussion duo Detention (Sam Shalabi - guitar, and Alexander MacSween - drums). Detention play an often noisy brand of improvised music that borrows heavily from both rock and jazz, with a bit of the Quebec music actuelle esthetic of not falling into any genre. I'm not a big fan of guitar players, don't often listen to them, so can't really make a comparison of who Shalabi might sound like. But I do really like this album, and it may be because Shalabi's guitar doesn't call to mind any of the guitar players I have heard. And I am saying this as a listener, who has no affiliation with the label. Same deal as the Bailey/Prevost disc -- the price is in effect until distributors get it.
As I mentioned above, don't contact me if you are interested in either of these recordings -- email arrivalrecords@canada.com but be sure to say that you are doing it because of this posting.
Dan
Find the best deals on the web at AltaVista Shopping!
Does anyone know anything about a Derek Bailey instructional guitar video? I remember reading about it on some cd liner notes many years ago. I don't remember if he was the featured teacher or if it was someone teaching Derek Bailey-style guitar.
> Does anyone know anything about a Derek Bailey instructional guitar >video? I remember reading about it on some cd liner notes many
Never heard of this but there was an interesting instructional video from Henry Kaiser. The booklet had a recommended music list that in its own way sort of matched the NWW list. (Just did a web search and this list is at http://www.henrykaiser.net/video.html. I obviously haven't seen it in years since Kaiser's list is so catholic that it's nowhere near as useful as I remembered.)
I've seen Pet Sounds mentioned here before, and it seems the general concensus is that it is regarded very well, though for some reason I can't really take it seriously, and it sounds dated. Though looking back in BB's history, it seems everyone had looked forward to a "super album" called "Smile", which later turned into "Smiley Smile". I just won this CD on Ebay and wondering what everyones thoughts were.
I'm still without my own computer, so I'll keep this short; essentially, I feel exactly the same as Brian. I didn't necessarily think that the piece for multi-tracked Maya was too long, but it would have been nice if the sound system had behaved itself. One channel cut out intermittently, and you could tell that Maya was frustrated. I loved the first piece, based on some of my favorite baroque music (and given that I don't generally like baroque music much, that's saying something. Biber was a genius, the Ives of his day and the Paganini as well...)
As for the trio improv, yes, I'll agree, for the most part. There were some thrilling moments and the overall trajectory was satisfying. The written bits did do a great deal to enliven the overall arc of the performance. The quieter bits did more for me than the loudest parts; there were some moments of crystalline beauty that made the whole thing more satisfying. In some of the louder moments I'd swear that Marilyn was getting drowned out by Guy and Hemingway, though, but maybe that's just an effect of where I was sitting.
There were moments where I did indeed have a reaction similar to Brian's regarding imitativenesss, but it didn't bug me too much, and AMM is a loaded gun I wouldn't ever hold to anyone's head... it's been my experience that NO ONE else can do what they do, and that's part of what makes them so valuable.
I, too, very much appreciated the opportunity to meet Rrrrick and David and last. It's always fun to meet fellow 'listers in the flesh. That's way I plan to try to make it to the Gray Code show at the Knit next Tuesday...
It is indeed shitcanned. Sorry to break the bad news.
If I hear anything further I'll let you know. But I do seem to recall hearing that the termination of the series had less to do with corporate politics and marketing and more to do with a personality conflict that developed between the principals.
In a message dated 2/22/01 12:23:19 PM Eastern Standard Time,
chatterton23@hotmail.com writes:
> These may be the first to come from the 'jazz' side of things, but don't
> forget that 'rock' bands like the (U.S.) Kaleidoscope with David Lindley,
> Yardbirds, Incredible String Band, Osibisa, Devil's Anvil, etc. were mixing
>
And if I'm not mistaken, Jade Warrior would belong in there too, a little
later.
Dale.
--part1_4f.7c9fc3b.27c6d907_boundary
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT COLOR="#8080c0" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SCRIPT" FACE="Comic Sans MS" LANG="0"><B>In a message dated 2/22/01 12:23:19 PM Eastern Standard Time,
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">These may be the first to come from the 'jazz' side of things, but don't
<BR>forget that 'rock' bands like the (U.S.) Kaleidoscope with David Lindley,
<BR>Yardbirds, Incredible String Band, Osibisa, Devil's Anvil, etc. were mixing
<BR>up different cultural influences back in the swingin' 60s</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#8080c0" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SCRIPT" FACE="Comic Sans MS" LANG="0"><B>
<BR>And if I'm not mistaken, Jade Warrior would belong in there too, a little
Thanks Colin for all the dope on this. Per one point,
> the Edition ground to a halt [...]
> also for the obvious/vulgar reason
> that sales of all the titles were
> woefully low, particularly in the eyes
> of a major label.
Just out of curiosity - I've always wondered
about this - roughly how "woefully low"
_were_ those Ligeti Edition sales? And how do they compare to the sales of, say, the Bach/Gould reissues? Or some other more mainstream Sony series that could give me some perspective on the Ligeti numbers?
I have had MANY bones to pick with Columbia/Sony Classical over the years: failure to reissue alot of the Budapest Quartet stuff on CD (here also they seem to have discontinued series mid-stream), failure to reissue the Stern-Trampler recording of the Sinfonia Concertante (which creams the later Stern-Zuckerman), I could go on... (I actually had a whole tick list of peeves at one point, but I don't know where it is now.)
It's all right up there with leaving Bankrobber off the reissue of Black Market Clash.
David
PS. By the way, if you go to the All Music Guide website, their "featured style" of the moment is Avant-Garde. In which they include Betty Carter and Elvin Jones, but, hey, no complaints from me...
Subject: Fwd: Table of the Elements Showcase Tour 2001
Date: 26 Feb 2001 13:14:24 -0500
There was some talk recently about the fate of Table of the Elements so I thought the following press release (trimmed for space) might be of interest. I don't know anything else despite attempts by myself and an editor to contact ToTE. Lang
TABLE OF THE ELEMENTS
European Showcase Tour 2001
in cooperation with The Wire and Spex
featuring PRESOCRATICS (Seattle)
and special guests SAN AGUSTIN (New York)
07 March Berlin (Germany) Podewil
08 March Hamburg (Germany) Molotow
09 March Brussels (Belgium) Beurs Schouwburg
10 March Villeurbanne (France) Pez Ner
11 March Grenoble (France) le 102
12 March Aubervilliers / Paris (France) Metafort
13 March Bordeaux (France) Zoobizarre
15 March Thun (Switzerland) Cafe Mokka
16 March Weingarten (Germany) Linse
17 March Duedingen (Switzerland) Bad Bonn
18 March Konstanz (Germany) Studio 1
21 March Zuerich (Switzerland) Substrat
22 March Vienna (Austria) Rhiz
23 March Wels (Austria) Alter Schlachthof
24 March Prague (Czech Republic) Delta
25 March Dresden (Germany) Riesa
www.PRESOCRATICS.net
NEW RELEASE FROM TABLE OF THE ELEMENTS
TOE-CD-78
PRESOCRATICS
PRESOCRATICS SERVE IMPERIALISM
Presocratics Serve Imperialism is the latest dispatch from the doubted
underclass intelligentsia. Here, Presocratics employ consumer and
post-consumer goods to interrogate history and insomnia in their bid to
wrest philosophy from professional academia and the class system it
supports, thereby returning it to the people (in general, and those people
who pay for CDs with only 20 minutes of music in particular). This EP
starts by wrapping vocals and instrumentation around recycled heavy metal
(Nestor Mahkno Discovers America) and climaxes with the society debut of
The Break-Even Point, the most breathtaking ballad ever to grace the
electro-acoustic stage. Behold rock energy mobilized against nostalgia!
track listing:
1) Nestor Mahkno Discovers America / Pig Latin [9:04]
2) Red Democracy (Schizophrenia Is No Moral Victory) [7:56]
3) The Break-Even Point [3:33]
total running time: 20:33
--------
PRESOCRATICS
PRESOCRATICS SERVE IMPERIALISM
TOE-CD-78
street date: March 27, 2001
-------
NEW RELEASE FROM TABLE OF THE ELEMENTS
TOE-CD-77
PRESOCRATICS
THE ILL-TEMPERED CASSETTE
Four years in the making, The Ill-Tempered Cassette addresses the problems
inherent in all composition: not merely formal elements of duration, volume
and tone, but intangible issues of economy, narrative & non-associative
emotional content, all drawn from the unique sound of a single "blank"
cassette tape. Concurrent with yet very different from Presocratics' debut
(Works and Days), these seven complimentary tracks are designed to be
played in any order or combination. The Ill-Tempered Cassette may be
rock-hard musique concret, but it roils in liquid waves of white noise.
"Abject formalism on its casual-dress day." -- Wallpaper
In a message dated Mon, 26 Feb 2001 10:32:33 AM Eastern Standard Time, colin_cigarran@sonyusa.com writes:
> I have only had access to Soundscan
> figures which represent US sales
Is this stuff available online?
> but the ones I have seen for Ligeti
> ranged from the approx. 3,000 - 4,000 units
> for a title like the choral works to upwards
> of 8,000 - 9,000 for the Piano Etudes
> (which actually won the Grammy for Best
> Solo Instrumental, I believe). So at
> least in the US, few titles if any in the
> Edition cracked the 10,000 units level.
Wonder how this compares to, say, the sales of the David S Ware quartet albums (to cite another ill-fated Sony venture), i.e., relatively avant major label jazz.
> I suppose you have the Budapest SQ
> recordings of the late Beethoven quartets?
> It's a shame there isn't more but I know
> that Bridge Records licensed some BSQ
> material from Sony Classical so you should
> get in touch with Bridge.
Yes, those two sets of the middle and late quartets were wonderfully done (from the packaging on down). But of course it's not complete, and likewise the reissue of BSQ's Mozart series was never completed (late quartets never reissued). Also the Schuberts not complete, I think, and I don't think Sony has ever gotten around to putting more than a few snippets of BSQ's recordings of 20th century composers out on CD. Grrrr. I thought that Bridge had just put out some not-so-good-audio live recordings of BSQ's Beethoven, but maybe I'm misinformed. I'll take another look, thanks.
I'm still working through Mike Pattons works and now lurking into his territory incorporated with Zorn himself. I picked up Elegy yesterday, have yet to listen to it, but was immediately entranced because it was influenced by the works of Jean Genet (Our Lady of Flowers, Miracle of the Rose, Thiefs Journal) All very enjoyable material. Anyone here familiar with Genet? Thoughts on Elegy? Love it/Hate it?
Wasn't Genet renouned for being a criminal. I'm under the impression that he lived his life in opposition to as many laws and social standards as possible. Almost as though he created his own system of norms even if he didn't agree with his own questioning.
Dick Hebdige's Subculture has an interesting look at The Thief's Journal and the whole idea behind 'outsiders' and how it relates to groups ranging from the Hell's Angels to punks to rastas.
Best,
Jason
P.S. For Frith, I heartily recommend both Massacre albums.
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">And what would all you veteran Zornfans clasify as your top ten favorite
>>in a more broad sense, what are all of your favorite albums.....top ten, any
genre. the albums that are absolutely essential to you as fans...
Beatles - Abbey Road
Cardiacs - Sing to God
Xenakis - Kraanerg
Stevie Wonder - Innervisions
Keith Jarrett - Facing You
Zappa - Uncle Meat
Elliott Carter - Symphonia: Sum Fluxae Pretium Spei
Morton Feldman - For Samuel Beckett
Jimi Hendrix - Axis, Bold as Love
Miles Davis - Complete at Live at Plugged Nickel
Perilously close to being on 'the list': Jean Barraque -complete works, Jean Barraque - Piano Sonata (played by Herbert Henck), Mr. Bungle - Disco Volante, Xenakis - Electronic Music, anything else by Miles from '65-'75, Zappa - Lumpy Gravy, Lather, Civilization Phaze III, Morton Feldman - Trio
In a message dated Tue, 27 Feb 2001 7:04:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, Nudeants@aol.com includes the following album that embodies the description "classic":
<< Cardiacs - Sing to God >>
Nice to see another Cardiacs fan here. This album is so friggin' amazing it escapes words. Why the HELL Cardiacs isn't mentioned in the same breath as Zappa, Beatles, Zorn, etc., is as criminal as Britney winning awards for her vocal talents.
