ftp.xmission.com/2014.06.ftp.xmission.com.tar/ftp.xmission.com/pub/lists/zorn-list/archive/v03.n868

Internet Message Format | 2002-03-28 | 21KB

From: [e-mail] (Zorn List Digest)
To: [e-mail]
Subject: Zorn List Digest V3 #868
Reply-To: zorn-list
Sender: [e-mail]
Errors-To: [e-mail]
Precedence: bulk


Zorn List Digest        Friday, March 29 2002        Volume 03 : Number 868



In this issue:
-
       Re: music defined (indeterminacy)
       Re: Melville
       Re: music defined (indeterminacy)
       Re: music defined (indeterminacy)
       RE: Melville
       Re: why do we need music
       Re: white trash
       Re: white trash
       Frisell
       Zony Mash
       Re: why is music needed?
       Antw: Zony Mash returns
       Re: white trash
       Re: Frisell
       RE: white trash
       Re: white trash
       Re: Zony Mash

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 20:41:30 -0600
From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: music defined (indeterminacy)

On Thu, Mar 28, 2002 at 05:32:51PM -0800, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:
>
> On Thu, 28 Mar 2002 20:20:20 -0600  Joseph Zitt wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Not a lot, for sure. But in my mind this extra element is enough to
> > > transform raw material to something that can apply for artistic recognition.
> >
> > "apply for artistic recognition"? Just what the arts need: more
> > faceless bureaucracy.
>
> Faceless bureaucracy or unconditional cheerleading, make your choice :-).

Given a choice between disdain and joy, I choose joy.

- --
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 18:42:17 -0800
From: Jim Flannery <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Melville

[e-mail] wrote:
>=20
> [e-mail] writes:
> >>
> >>He's one of the first examples of the artist who refused to be=20
> >>roped in by the demands of his audience.
>
> What about Michael Jackson?

Wow, Michael Jackson predates Herman Melville? That *is* some kinda
plastic surgery I guess.

- --=20
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jim Flannery                                           [e-mail]

         "When I say =91no=92 I=92m always right and when I say =91yes=92=
=20
          I=92m almost always wrong."
                                           -- Dwight Macdonald

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 20:11:39 -0800
From: "s~Z" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: music defined (indeterminacy)

>>>Don't get me wrong.  I'm in business for the audience.  If you
pay your
money, you deserve the best job I can give you.  OTTH, don't bitch
at me if
you come in not knowing what service I'm providing.  I'm not there
to make
people line dance. <<<

But in our discussion you place a very high priority on the
audience. When you speak as a composer, and tell me what the
bottom line is.....not one word, nor implication regarding any
audience.

>>>If I record something and put it out, I am indeed putting a
premium on the
notion that I want to communicate something.  I don't know how I
feel about
the audience reaction per se, but I know I want to make an idea
known.  And
I want it to be understood.>>>

What's an example of an idea you are trying to get across by a
piece of your music?

>>>Your option.  But I think it does matter to you that you're
pleased by these
people,<<<

It matters a lot.

>>>and I'm pretty sure it matters to them that somebody's pleased
and
that they can pay their rent this way.<<<

I know a LOT of serious musicians who cannot pay the rent via
their compositions and performances. Would they they be pleased if
they could? Big time. Do they alter their art to get the rent
paid? No.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 21:42:22 -0800
From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: music defined (indeterminacy)

on 3/28/02 8:11 PM, s~Z at [e-mail] wrote:

>>>> Don't get me wrong.  I'm in business for the audience.  If you
> pay your
> money, you deserve the best job I can give you.  OTTH, don't bitch
> at me if
> you come in not knowing what service I'm providing.  I'm not there
> to make
> people line dance. <<<
>
> But in our discussion you place a very high priority on the
> audience. When you speak as a composer, and tell me what the
> bottom line is.....not one word, nor implication regarding any
> audience.

I meant the bottom line for my doing it.  When I put it out there and charge
money for it, I'm assuming another responsibility entirely.  But I assume
the consumer is educated enough not to be disappointed if I'm not doing
general pop music or jazz out of the Real Book.  That's not the service I
provide, nor have I ever purported to.
>
>>>> If I record something and put it out, I am indeed putting a
> premium on the
> notion that I want to communicate something.  I don't know how I
> feel about
> the audience reaction per se, but I know I want to make an idea
> known.  And
> I want it to be understood.>>>
>
> What's an example of an idea you are trying to get across by a
> piece of your music?

One example -- if I write a piece of music to commemorate another artist,
like Rahsaan Roland Kirk for instance, I want people to hear the music and
know what I respond to about him.  I've been writing a fair amount of music
that way lately.


> I know a LOT of serious musicians who cannot pay the rent via
> their compositions and performances. Would they they be pleased if
> they could? Big time. Do they alter their art to get the rent
> paid? No.
>
Me too.  I'm lucky -- I haven't had to alter the way I do things when I work
for other people.  But I see that as a stroke of good fortune, not as
something I earned ahead of anybody else.  I know a guy who pumps gas for a
living and is one of the most amazing be-bop guitarists I ever heard in my
life.  Fair isn't always in the picture.  Sadly.  Otherwise award shows
would be much more palatable.

sh


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 02:23:29 -0500
From: "josephneff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Melville

Kurt,
     ...touch=E9. What I was thinking, and didn't write, was "one of the =
first
examples of the artist in American Lit....". Pretty big omission, I know.
    While we're on the subject, a while back Jim Flannery was reading "Wiela=
nd"
by Charles Brockden Brown. Care to give a short opinion Jim? The guy didn=
't
even get a mention in my Survey of American Lit. class. I know his
historical importance, but how's the reading?

Just trying to learn more about art,

Joseph

NP: Arnett Cobb- "Arnett Blows for 1300" CD
NR: Flannery O'Connor- "Wise Blood"

- -----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail]
[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Kurt Gottschalk
Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2002 12:34 PM
To: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Melville


>>>he's one of the first examples of the artist who refused to be roped i=
n
>>>by the demands of his audience.

wow, joseph -- you must know a lot about art! i didn't know ancient chine=
se
printmakers, early indian composers, j.s. bach or cavedwellers drawing on
walls were so beholden to the masses! [little smiley winky emoticon thing=
y]

kg

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.as=
p.


- -


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 08:51:25 +0000
From: "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: why do we need music

In answer to the question, go without anything from your music collection
for fifteen months and see how you react.  When I first went to Asia, that's
what I had to do, and I can't describe the joy I felt when I got back to my
collection and started listening to it again.  I vowed it would never happen
again as long as I live.  If you can't do such a thing, try using your
imagination.

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 08:55:36 +0000
From: "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: white trash

I've always thought this designation was by, mostly, American whites for
American whites who exhibited, in word or action, signs of bigotry and
racism toward other races.  That such people may have come from the lower
classes of society was relatively beside the point.

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 11:03:41 +0100
From: duncan youngerman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: white trash

Bill Ashline a =E9crit :

> I've always thought this designation was by, mostly, American whites for
> American whites who exhibited, in word or action, signs of bigotry and
> racism toward other races=2E  That such people may have come from the lowe=
r
> classes of society was relatively beside the point=2E

I beg to differ (see my note)=2E=2E=2E
Will our in-house Man of the people and American socio-cultural authority  -=
- -
yes, Skip, that's you-- speak up on this matter?

D=2E



- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 03:44:07 -0800 (PST)
From: Theo Klaase <[e-mail]>
Subject: Frisell

    Come on now we're all being a bit hard on Frisell,
aye?  I mean that last album with Dave Holland and
Elvins Jones was super.  Granted I didn't like "Blues
Dream," but "Good dog, happy man," had some amazing
moments.  Of course, I do miss his more experimental
stuff like "Before we were born," "Where in the
world," and "Is that you," along with the Live album
with Joey and Kermit.
    Frisell is still my favorite guitarist but I
agree, his latest album coming out sounds like it'll
be a bore.  I don't like that country twang shit...

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Greetings - send holiday greetings for Easter, Passover
http://greetings.yahoo.com/

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 03:45:59 -0800 (PST)
From: Theo Klaase <[e-mail]>
Subject: Zony Mash

   ...and lastly, why would anyone break up a great
band like Pigpen to form Zony Mash?  Pigpen did some
wonderful things, namely "V as in Victim" and "Miss
Ann."


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Greetings - send holiday greetings for Easter, Passover
http://greetings.yahoo.com/

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 15:39:53 +0200
From: "Vincent Kargatis / Anne Larson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: why is music needed?

> From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
> If you're trying to get over with a young lady, Teddy
> Pendergrass might be more conducive than, say, Tim Berne (unless you're
> really lucky).

Hm, the idea of a young lady who "gets over" by listening to Tim Berne.
That's practically masturbation material right there...  What does she look
like? :-)

I quite like getting action to "weird" music, but unfortunately my wife's
not crazy about it.  We had sex to the soundtrack to NAKED LUNCH once, but
she generally thought it was just too spooky.

As far as why I need music, probably two reasons:
1) For whatever reasons, I responded to music well very young, and my
parents often got me out of their hair by putting headphones (playing music,
of course) on me, after which I'd evidently be a happy camper for a while.
This could easily have affected my still pliable brain chemistry, in the
same sense that language learning does.  (Just speculating, of course -
don't know exactly when brain plasticity drops off heavily).
2) I've listened to so much music so constantly for most of my life, I'm
psychologically conditioned and probably addicted to it.  When I go without
music for even a few hours, I start humming unconsciously, and after a
weekend getaway without music reproduction equipment, say, I'm pretty much
dying for a fix by the time I return.

I'm sure there are other factors (deep, metaphysical, philosophical ones),
but those raw facts probably are sufficient explanation, and it saves me
from having to think about those others.
- --
Vincent Kargatis
np: Solex - "Solex In A Slipshod Style"  (Solex Vs. The Hitmeister)



- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 16:29:34 -0800
From: "Marcel Kranendonk" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Antw: Zony Mash returns

Zony Mash (the electric version) played in Utrecht on sunday march 18.
This concert (a great show!!) was recorded by VPRO-radio and will be
broadcast in may or june.
This broadcast also available in real-audio on the VPRO-site in may or june:
http://www.vpro.nl/programma/jazzopvier

Marcel
- ----------
>Van: "Toby Dodds" <[e-mail]>
>Aan: <[e-mail]>
>Onderwerp: Zony Mash returns
>Datum: woe, 27 maa 2002 13:29
>

> Zony Mash are back!  Go to www.waynehorvitz.com for the dirt.  Did anyone
> see them/record them in Europe?
>
>
> -
>

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 08:39:19 -0800
From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: white trash

on 3/29/02 2:03 AM, duncan youngerman at [e-mail] wrote:

>=20
>=20
> Bill Ashline a =E9crit :
>=20
>> I've always thought this designation was by, mostly, American whites for
>> American whites who exhibited, in word or action, signs of bigotry and
>> racism toward other races.  That such people may have come from the lowe=
r
>> classes of society was relatively beside the point.
>=20
> I beg to differ (see my note)...
> Will our in-house Man of the people and American socio-cultural authority=
  --
> yes, Skip, that's you-- speak up on this matter?
>=20
> D.
>=20
Actually, I fit squarely into the "white trash" demographic.  I'm not gonna
be the most objective guy on this topic.  I come from a low-middle-class
background, went to high a school that could have been the prototype for
WAYNE'S WORLD, never went to college, drank an awful lot of beer (until I
cut out alcohol entirely), listen to country music, worked in factories, an=
d
all that good stuff.  Do I know my share of "white trash" racists? yes.  Do
I know racists from other backgrounds? Any white guy in Philly who played
jazz for money was going to see that (and, even more predominantly, ageism)
up close.  Do I know my share of "white trash" folks who object strenuously
to racism? Tons.  Do I laugh at Jeff Foxworthy? Often enough.

I agree with John Water -- that it's the only PC racial epithet left to
throw around.

sh=20


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 08:43:55 -0800
From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Frisell

on 3/29/02 3:44 AM, Theo Klaase at [e-mail] wrote:

> Come on now we're all being a bit hard on Frisell,
> aye?  I mean that last album with Dave Holland and
> Elvins Jones was super.  Granted I didn't like "Blues
> Dream," but "Good dog, happy man," had some amazing
> moments.  Of course, I do miss his more experimental
> stuff like "Before we were born," "Where in the
> world," and "Is that you," along with the Live album
> with Joey and Kermit.
> Frisell is still my favorite guitarist but I
> agree, his latest album coming out sounds like it'll
> be a bore.  I don't like that country twang shit...

I do, and a lot, but Frisell's take on it is, for me, unexciting.

I also thought the Holland/Elvin record was sort of drab.  It never got up
and walked around on its own legs.  And I feel asleep the first time I heard
GOOD DOG.

The last one that floored me was THIS LAND.  Still my favorite, along with
the live trio disc of him and Joey & Kermit.

sh


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 12:23:33 -0500
From: "josephneff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: white trash

Hello,
      ...not to say that the term "white trash" isn't used in the way you
mention by someone somewhere, but I've always heard it used by whites at the
expense of other whites who are usually very poor, uneducated, and open in
their lack of refinement (car in the yard up on blocks, dirty clothes, skin,
or hair, bad teeth). The users of the term are quite often lower middle
class. It is quite often a way for people to deflect/pass on class scorn. If
the woman at the grocery store feels that a guy was passing judgment on her
noisy kids and her battered '88 Lincoln Continental, her animosity might
eventually be directed toward that family at the end of the street who drink
beer on a couch in their yard and still have the X-mas lights up in
mid-July. Much as I would like to have never been party to this stuff, I
have, mostly through distant relatives and co-workers.
    A great example of this mindset in action would be Flannery O'Connor's
short story "Revelation".

I remain...

Joseph

NP: Guy Klucesvek- "Manhattan Cascade" CD
NR: Flannery O'Connor- "Wise Blood"

- -----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail]
[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Bill Ashline
Sent: Friday, March 29, 2002 3:56 AM
To: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: white trash


I've always thought this designation was by, mostly, American whites for
American whites who exhibited, in word or action, signs of bigotry and
racism toward other races.  That such people may have come from the lower
classes of society was relatively beside the point.

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


- -


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 09:18:12 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: white trash

On Fri, 29 Mar 2002 08:55:36 +0000  "Bill Ashline" wrote:
>
> I've always thought this designation was by, mostly, American whites for
> American whites who exhibited, in word or action, signs of bigotry and
> racism toward other races.  That such people may have come from the lower
> classes of society was relatively beside the point.

That's really weird to read that because it does not match at all the
few times I heard the expression used. I never remember the issue of
racism being ever raised in these few cases.

"white trash", in my understanding, can be fairly well described by
simply opening an issue of the NATIONAL INQUIRER.

And since John Waters still dreams of being featured in the NATIONAL
ENQUIRER, I am not surpised at his statement :-).

    Patrice (wondering if we are living in the same country).

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 09:29:05 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zony Mash

On Fri, 29 Mar 2002 03:45:59 -0800 (PST)  Theo Klaase wrote:
>
>    ...and lastly, why would anyone break up a great
> band like Pigpen to form Zony Mash?  Pigpen did some
> wonderful things, namely "V as in Victim" and "Miss
> Ann."

One of the main reasons what Briggan moving to NY. I also remember Wayne
getting tired at it.

Now your judgement surprises me since I have seen both bands many times (I
live not far from Seattle), and they are quite incredible. I was also sad of
the demise of Pigpen, but after the first concert of Zony Mash, I put my
handkerchief in my pocket.

One thing that is worth mentioning concerning Zony Mash is their ability to
really stretch any of their compositions. This is definitely not apparent in
their records and may be the reason of your critic. Pigpen was Horvitz' band
to play in rock clubs (since this is what Seattle is famous for). I guess
that moving to Seattle in the early 90's might have been hard from a playing
point of view. With Pigpen he started to get involved with the local scene
and this jumpstarted many of his collaborations. I also feel that Pigpen
records are more representative of the band performances than Zony Mash.

    Patrice.

- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V3 #868
*******************************


 To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to
       "[e-mail]"
 with
       "unsubscribe zorn-list-digest"
 in the body of the message.

 For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send
 "help" to the same address.  Do not use quotes in your message.

 A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
 subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "zorn-list-digest"
 in the commands above with "zorn-list".

 Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from ftp.xmission.com, in
 pub/lists/zorn-list/archive.  These are organized by date.

 Problems? Email the list owner at [e-mail]