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From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest) To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: Zorn List Digest V3 #858 Reply-To: zorn-list Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Zorn List Digest Wednesday, March 27 2002 Volume 03 : Number 858 In this issue: - Re: Well Well Well Joe Harriott Re: RJC Re: RJC Re: What is music? Re: john cage - floodgates part II Zorn 'Gift' live in London Re: Joe Harriott Re: Joe Harriott Re: well well well music defined (indeterminacy) d'oh! Fred Frith mailing list Re: d'oh! Re: well well well ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 01:48:03 -0500 From: "josephneff" <jneff@visuallink.com> Subject: Re: Well Well Well Hello, ....What is my definition of music? Good music? It's when I hear something and I know that it couldn't be expressed as effectively any other way. And it doesn't have to be perfect (some of the greatest music has flaws), and it doesn't have to be flagrantly non-commercial (or vice-versa, natch), and it doesn't have to be grandiose in it's intentions. It only needs to make its way into my consciousness, and then stay there. I remain... Joseph NP: John Cage- "In a Landscape" CD NR: Flannery O'Connor- "Wise Blood" - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 12:13:52 +0100 From: "Andreas Dietz" <andreasdietz@hotmail.com> Subject: Joe Harriott I┤ve seen an offer of some CDs (Indo-Jazz Fusions I & II, Free Form) of Joe Harriott but have no idea what to expect. The only indication is the Ken Vandermark band of the same name (which I haven┤t heard either but lot┤s of other Vandermark of course). Is it worth some bucks? Andreas np: Derome/Lussier: Soyez Vigilants, Restez Vivan _________________________________________________________________ Werden Sie Mitglied bei MSN Hotmail, dem gr÷▀ten E-Mail-Service der Welt. http://www.hotmail.com/de - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 12:53:52 +0100 From: duncan youngerman <y-man@wanadoo.fr> Subject: Re: RJC Stephen Fruitman a =E9crit : > >> >aboriginal Jewishness > > >>"aboriginal: inhabiting or existing in a land from the earliest times or > >>before > >the arrival of colonists" > >-Oxford concise dictionary > >=2E=2E=2E=2E I'm at a loss at what you could > >find disturbing here=2E > >Could it be that because this term has often been used in connection with= less > >developped, animist cultures, it is pejorative in your eyes? > > No, it is the reference to "place" - as if the RJC series is propagating > for a return to the Land of Israel like some kind of reactionary settler= =2E Zionism, mentioned in programs in connection with Zorn's music, is very much= about place=2E > >> >an ambiguous dual dimension of race and religion > > >Why do you pretend to ignore that the notion of Jewishness can encompass > >both or > >either religious and/or racial aspects, and that antisemitism is racism? > > There is "racism" in the world; but there are no "races"=2E My original phrase could have been: <an ambiguous dual dimension of ethnicit= y and religion> > > The notion of Jewishness indeed extends to an array of aspects=2E That=B4s= why > I like to see Judaism as a culture or ethnicity, _originally_ based on a > religious faith but since the 1700s more and more multifarious=2E Can you explain to me what Serge Gainsbourg, notorious French atheist, has t= o do with Jewishness? > DY=2E - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 13:11:07 +0000 From: "Arthur Gadney" <a_gadney@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: RJC >Zionism, mentioned in programs in connection with Zorn's music, is very >much about >place. Doesn't Zorn only talk about "cultural zionism"? Not sure exactly what that means, but perhaps it's a call for a Jewish place in culture, instead of a piece of earth? Don't know what Zotn thinks about Israel, but a call for a strong modern Jewish culture has been heard from him from time to time...! _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 08:24:03 EST From: TagYrIt@aol.com Subject: Re: What is music? - --part1_162.b1ee89b.29d321f3_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't think you've gone on too long at all Mike, I found the Cage banter really interesting. And as for a definition, I've always liked "Music is organised sound." ....Varese I think? Anyone with a better memory than me? Dale. In a message dated 3/26/2002 11:47:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, RainDog138@aol.com writes: > ok perhaps i went on a tad much there, but my extremely broad question to > this group is WHAT IS THE DEFINITION OF MUSIC TO YOU? - --part1_162.b1ee89b.29d321f3_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <HTML>I don't think you've gone on too long at all Mike, I found the Cage banter really interesting. And as for a definition, I've always liked "Music is organised sound." ....Varese I think? Anyone with a better memory than me? Dale. In a message dated 3/26/2002 11:47:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, RainDog138@aol.com writes: <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">ok perhaps i went on a tad much there, but my extremely broad question to this group is WHAT IS THE DEFINITION OF MUSIC TO YOU? </BLOCKQUOTE> </HTML> - --part1_162.b1ee89b.29d321f3_boundary-- - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 06:19:16 -0800 (PST) From: aaron chua <aaronchua22@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: john cage - floodgates part II i'm a bit of a novice myself, but i found the cage piece on sonic youth's _goodbye_ to be highly enjoyable leading me to investigate the piece as recorded by the arditti qtet on mode. also frm memory quartets i-viii on hathut and string qurtet in 4 parts ... ( i'll admit i don't listen to these v often;---> which leads me to ask; i find that i don't usually listen to pieces that i enjoy very often; spending my time either w/ newer pieces or perhaps ( at least this used to be the case) pieces i didn't _get_. does anyone else find this in their listening habits? rgrds aaron __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards« http://movies.yahoo.com/ - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 14:40:51 +0000 (GMT) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Nick=20Cain?= <npc_4@yahoo.co.uk> Subject: Zorn 'Gift' live in London Further to yesterday's mention of Zorn performing 'The Gift' live in London - the reviews in the daily newspapers here have been, it would be fair to say, mixed at best. The 'Times' went so far as to refer to it as "a tepid collage of easy-listening jazz and surf rock" and a "gross disappointment". In order of most enthusiastic to least... http://www.guardian.co.uk/reviews/story/0,3604,674599,00.html http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,685-249396,00.html http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/dynamic/hottx/music/top_review.html?in_review_id=527674&in_review_text_id=499490 and from the Daily Telegraph (you have to register to get to read it, hence text is pasted below): "Exotic excursions then Zorn blows his horn" JOHN ZORN tends to provoke controversy. Perhaps best known as a leading improvising saxophonist of the downtown New York scene, he has more musical personalities than most people could cope with in a single life. First, there is the Ornette-Coleman-inspired alto saxophonist. Then there's the trickster, whose game pieces force musicians into sudden silences or violent twists of genre. For a while in the Eighties, he played the avant-rock superstar, with his punk-Stravinsky Naked City project. Recent years have seen him establish a new radical Jewish identity, and projects such as Kristallnacht and Masada mix Jewish folk melodies with free-jazz blowing. The Zorn on view at the Barbican was yet another beast. With guitarist Mark Ribot as featured soloist, we were taken on an easy-listening journey through the Fifties and Sixties; lounge, surf, swamp blues, South Sea Island and Latin numbers echoed around the hall. It was like being privy to a film soundtrack recording session circa 1965; one moment one thought of Austin Powers, the next one of those surreal disco scenes in Thunderbirds. There was even a theramin to conjure the electronic whooshes associated with old sci-fi movies. The arrival of Dave Douglas on trumpet, as he blew mournful phrases over romantic chords, transported us to the rainy-streets-at-night territory of film noir. Zorn's jazz following were somewhat perplexed by these stylistic gyrations, as well as by the lead man's failure to play saxophone, as he sat and directed proceedings from a couple of ancient electric organs. "Why, why, why, why?" one of them moaned in the row behind me. And yet this was a great gig. Zorn's seven-piece band, which included regulars drummer Joey Baron and percussionist Cyro Baptista, were superb at styling the different genres, and capable of jumping from extreme delicacy to full-on blowing in an instant. For an encore Zorn finally made the jazz fans happy. He picked up his horn, and, with Douglas as co-conspirator, launched into a scorching 15-minute Masada track. It ended up as a wild blow which recalled the Miles Davis of the Get Up With It period. Zorn has always insisted that he simply plays the styles he likes, and that his genre-hopping is not intended as a provocation. When the music is this much fun, you just have to take him at his word, and hang on to your seat. Richard Wolfson ===== www.info.net.nz/opprobrium __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 10:52:53 -0500 From: <wlt4@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Joe Harriott >I┤ve seen an offer of some CDs (Indo-Jazz >Fusions I & II, Free Form) of Joe Harriott but >have no idea what to expect. The two Indo-Jazz albums are great, just the sort of thing I'd always wished this kind of blend would be: sitars, tabla but still definitely jazz. His Free Form and Abstract albums are closer to the Vandermark release; they're certainly fine work but don't really "get" me like the Indo-Jazz stuff. - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 11:16:28 -0500 (EST) From: Ken Waxman <mingusaum@yahoo.ca> Subject: Re: Joe Harriott Folks: Historically all Harriott CDS are interesting, musically you have to consider them in the context of their times -- the mid to late 1960s. Indo-Jazz was an attempt at Eastern-Western fusion before John McLaughlin and used much better jazz players than John et. al. The Harriott "free" CDs are notable because his West Indian-influenced, freebop was put together before he ever heard Ornette Coleman's work and developed in a parallel manner. Ken Waxman - --- wlt4@mindspring.com wrote: > >I┤ve seen an offer of some CDs (Indo-Jazz >Fusions > I & II, Free Form) of Joe Harriott but >have no idea > what to expect. > > The two Indo-Jazz albums are great, just the sort of > thing I'd always wished this kind of blend would be: > sitars, tabla but still definitely jazz. His Free > Form and Abstract albums are closer to the > Vandermark release; they're certainly fine work but > don't really "get" me like the Indo-Jazz stuff. > ===== Ken Waxman mingusaum@yahoo.ca www.jazzword.com - Jazz/improv news, CD reviews and photos ______________________________________________________________________ File your taxes online! http://taxes.yahoo.ca - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 11:08:40 -0600 From: William Crump <crumpw@bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: well well well RainDog138@aol.com wrote: >WHAT IS THE DEFINITION OF MUSIC TO YOU? > I took a music theory class a few years ago when I was working at Ole Miss, very helpful in helping this non-musician understand what I was listening to a little better. I've always like the definition of music put forth by the grad-assistant instructor, a hard-working cocktail-jazz alto sax player from Memphis who was trying to get a master's degree while working in six or seven bands to make ends meet. He may have gotten this from someone else, but I don't remember the attribution if he did. Music = the organization of sounds and silences. Simple and elegant. I can't think of anything this definition doesn't cover. >and please don't bicker >back and forth a thousand times if someone has a different opinion than >yours. > Waaaahhhh!! You NEVER let me have ANY fun!! (Stomp stomp stomp, face turning blue...) William Crump - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 17:29:00 +0000 From: "Kurt Gottschalk" <ecstasymule@hotmail.com> Subject: music defined (indeterminacy) (to be read aloud, 60 seconds given to each paragraph, with the tv playing in the background) i pretty much agree with skip'n'zitt, music is a way of receiving sound waves. cage'd like that too. i'm not completely happy with it as a definition, but i can't imagine anything else covering what needs to be covered. "if you got to ask, you ain't never gonna know." --louie armstrong, when asked to define jazz. a rocker friend of mine has taken a recent (and surprising) interest in what i listen to, which for years he's referred to as "the sound of stuff falling off shelves." he went to see okkyung lee/alan licht/tim barnes/anthony coleman with me, and listened pretty intently to jon rose/otomo yoshide's tokyo shopping record. his conclusion: "you're not interested in music, you're interested in sound." which is fine with me. "if it isn't a sound, why isn't it?" --john cage i played otomo's "cathode" for an old girlfriend. her response: "this is interesting. could we listen to some music now?" the same disc led my cousin to demand that i take it off, and anger her that i would impose such a thing on her. "there's two kinds of music. we play the good kind." --duke ellington the question, i think, or at least the interesting question, is not 'what is music?' but 'what's good music?' same is true in any of the arts. getting hung up on what qualifies it into the class leads, i think, to a head-numbing talk. but what makes it good, that's where we get to dance. "i hate music" --yamantaka eye a scottish friend tells me that the "art is whatever is presented as art" is a particularly american (and in her view ridiculous) standard. "i love the sound of breaking glass" --david bowie (89 more to go...) kurt _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 17:40:23 +0000 From: "Kurt Gottschalk" <ecstasymule@hotmail.com> Subject: d'oh! "i love the sound of breaking glass" was actually nick lowe's david bowie parody, and not bowie himself. mea culpa (and 88 to go). _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 17:40:24 +0000 From: "Arthur Gadney" <a_gadney@hotmail.com> Subject: Fred Frith mailing list Hello. Is anybody else here on the Fred Frith mailing list?? Is it working at all anymore? NP: "Strings" by Eugene Chadbourne NR: http://www.aril.org/galtung.htm _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 09:45:56 -0800 From: skip Heller <velaires@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: d'oh! on 3/27/02 9:40 AM, Kurt Gottschalk at ecstasymule@hotmail.com wrote: > "i love the sound of breaking glass" was actually nick lowe's david bowie > parody. > one of two. when bowie put out the LOW album, lowe folled with an EP on Stiff called BOWI. skip h - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 09:45:37 -0800 (PST) From: nme <nearixson@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: well well well Less a definition than a litmus test: music is sound and silence (sometimes silence only) that is intended as, or recieved as, music. Too recursive? Too Broad? Maybe, but it's a workable answer to "The Patton Qestion". Scott Mccloud's definition of Art is :"any human activity which doesnÆt grow out of either of our species two basic instincts: survival and reproduction". Adding "involving the making and organizing of sound" to narrow it down, and you might have a working definition of music. Stopping before I get too disjointed, - -nathan - --- RainDog138@aol.com wrote: > i see that even going as far as to title my post "floodgates" was still a bit > understated. thank you to all who answered me politely and my humble > apologies to those who hate me now for ever bringing up such a volitile topic > as John Cage. > > i've got a new one for ya - just so we can maybe move on...ok, i played > patton's "adult themes for voice" in my music theory class today - > specifically "the man in the lower lefthand corner of the picture." the > instructor loved it - he was already a mr. bungle fan. anyways a fellow > student came up to me and says, "sure it's innovative or atleast new to me, > but is it really music? i told him i felt it was. and continued on to say > that to me music is simply any form of audio that can change your physical or > psychological feelings at that very moment in time. > > did it take you to a place that you would not have gone had you been sitting > here in silence? > > that's how i define music it's it's most general form. > > even the noisy or unpleasant stuff you guys/gals say you've bought and never > play again past the first or second listen - it was new to you then and it > had your attention for that moment in time. even if it's the sound of the fan > in the computer next to you that reminds you of that old fridge that used to > always hum down in your parents basement. it takes you mentally somewhere > else - it changes your mood like it or not. that to me is music. > > ok perhaps i went on a tad much there, but my extremely broad question to > this group is WHAT IS THE DEFINITION OF MUSIC TO YOU? and please don't bicker > back and forth a thousand times if someone has a different opinion than > yours. as i am certain not all agree with my pathetic attempt - i will not > question your personal definition. i am just incredibly curious to hear what > you all have to say. > > mike t > > > - > ===== "Are you amplified to rock? Are you hoping for a contact?" -GbV __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards« http://movies.yahoo.com/ - - ------------------------------ End of Zorn List Digest V3 #858 ******************************* To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to "majordomo@lists.xmission.com" with "unsubscribe zorn-list-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "zorn-list-digest" in the commands above with "zorn-list". Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from ftp.xmission.com, in pub/lists/zorn-list/archive. These are organized by date. Problems? Email the list owner at zorn-list-owner@lists.xmission.com