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Zorn List Digest        Sunday, March 24 2002        Volume 03 : Number 851



In this issue:
-
       Re: Zorn List Digest V3 #847
       Re: radical jewish culture and other favorite Z-list topics
       RE: Opinions on Wolfgang Rihm?
       Re: toshimaru nakamura.
       Re: Nakamura Toshimaru (and Other Nakamura's seeking Vindication)
       Re: How Come? INSTANT POLL
       Re: radical jewish culture and other favorite Z-list topics
       Re: How Come? INSTANT POLL
       re: graham haynes/big gundown live?
       Re: Zorn List Digest V3 #847
       Re: radical jewish culture and other favorite Z-list topics
       Re: Zorn List Digest V3 #847
       re: graham haynes/big gundown live?
       Cd and  Vinyl Pressing question
       Re: radical jewish culture and other favorite Z-list topics
       "...than a spoonfull of starmatter"
       Zappa Recommendations
       goddamn i'm dumb.  (was: Re: toshimaru nakamura.)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 10:00:29 +0100
From: "Verstraeten Stefan" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn List Digest V3 #847

Totally second this opinion.
Just check out the archives from some years ago...
You had stuff like
- -recent goodies (in wich brian and steve were great contributors; this
subjects contained more and better reviews than in any other magazine)
- -different attitudes (I remember f.e. that joseph gave interesting help
towards the use of "cartridge music" in merzbows music... definitely not the
tone he is using now and recently)
- -....

Yes, Joseph and others, don't start another discussion please.... I DO
KNOW..
- -that I sound old-fashioned,
- -that i don't realize that people change,
- -that I live in the past,
- -that i don't have an open mind,

But fuck, this list has changed, and i regret this very hard...

Stefan Verstraeten
(a stupid person who better shuts his mouth)

> From: "Iain Kitt" <[e-mail]>
> Subject: Joseph and John
>
> Am I the only person finding Joseph and John's exchanges are  becoming
> increasingly tiresome? Please carry on guys if you want to but can you not
> do it off list?
>
> Iain



- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 09:51:16 +0000
From: "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: radical jewish culture and other favorite Z-list topics

>From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>

>Then I've got no morals whatsoever.  You know how much work Shaq and Kobe
>generate for how many people? These guys aren't basketball players --
>they're economies.  If the start-up money for those economies is obscene
>(and it is), then just imagine how many dollars go 'round to keep that
>stuff
>in business.

Well, the only reason that these ball players can constitute economies is
because we supply the attention.  Take that away and give it somewhere else,
like education or creative training, and make sports the leisure activity as
it is and reward it accordingly, and we might see the jobs located somewhere
else.  Why does the guy who sells his endorsement get 20 million a year and
the guy who makes the shoes get only 300 bucks?  A lack of intelligent
priorities.  When I see MJ speaking up for the factory workers in Jakarta
I'll feel better about him.


>
>But I think the leading lights in any entertainment endeavor -- music,
>sports, sculpture -- are worth whatever it takes to have them (he said as
>he
>remembered what Dr J did for the local morale when he was growing up in
>Philly).

Well, just as a thought experiment, let me ask you--what has provided a
greater service in your life?  Learning to appreciate a three-pointer by
Allen Iverson or learning how to read and write and do basic math problems?
I'm going to jump ahead and assume, perhaps wrongly, the latter.  In which
case, why does the former deserve 500 times as much money as the one who
trains in the latter?  Why is it we can remember Kareem Jabbar but can't
recall the teacher who taught us the most fundamental skills to get by in
life?  My wager is that the seductive spectacle is more immediately
compelling than the hard, arduous labor of learning and teaching.  Once
again, misplaced priorities.  We've learned to take our most basic education
(and our educators) for granted.



_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 04:33:48 -0800 (PST)
From: aaron chua <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Opinions on Wolfgang Rihm?

this thread has actually made me pull out the 2 discs
of his i have (both on kairos).

  Trios - trio recherche
  Musik fur drei Streicher - ensemble recherche

one of the main reasons for picking up the trio disc
fr me was the presence of teodoro anzellotti on one of
the pieces which happens to be the one that struck me
the most. the piece Am Horizont is fr violin , cello
and accordeon. rather slow, meditative. quietly
beautiful.

the ensemble disc sounds fine to these ears though i
don't claim to have very discerning tastes. i don't
play this very often ( actually might have been the
first time i listened to it all the way through
tonight) but that may be more for reasons of my
shortening attention span these days.

i vaguely remember reading somewhere that morton
feldman considered him one of the better new composers
for whatever thats worth.

rgrds
aaron
np Am Horizont - Rihm (funnily enough)

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards«
http://movies.yahoo.com/

- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 10:52:17 -0500
From: Mathieu =?iso-8859-1?Q?B=E9langer?=  <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: toshimaru nakamura.

Hello,

>i just had to jump in here - i saw plaid with toshimaru nakamura last night
>at the metro in chicago, and he actually blew plaid away, in my opinion.  it
>was physically painful at times, and made me have to go to the bathroom, but
>it was intensely cool.  and his visual aspect was intensely cool, too.

Just curious... You saw Toshimaru Nakamura or Nobukazu Takemura? As
far as I know, Nobukazu Takemura is opening for Plaid on this tour...
But I could be wrong as this is based some sort of flyer I picked up.
Not to mention that I have no real interest in Plaid or Takemura, but
that's another story!

Tschuss,

Mathieu

- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 08:06:43 -0800 (PST)
From: Ronald Hiznay <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Nakamura Toshimaru (and Other Nakamura's seeking Vindication)

k8,

Wow, I'm going to have to call you on this one, you
have your Nakamuras confused...I thought something was
a little suspicious about your e-mail when I saw
Nakamura Toshimaru in person attending an Otomo
Yoshihide show in Tokyo tonight....so I did a little
research on the Metro in Chicago, from what I can find
on Google who you really saw was Dan "The Automator"
Nakamura, which is really ironic vindication for a
comment that I recently made as I told you the other
day that the Dr Octogon CD was a dj Q-Bert thing, when
Q-bert only appears on Blue Flowers....
when really most of the production was done by Dan
"The Automator" Nakamura.

mushmush

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards«
http://movies.yahoo.com/

- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 11:50:31 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: How Come? INSTANT POLL

How about "no where to run"

- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 09:03:35 -0800
From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: radical jewish culture and other favorite Z-list topics

on 3/24/02 1:51 AM, Bill Ashline at [e-mail] wrote:


> Well, the only reason that these ball players can constitute economies is
> because we supply the attention.  Take that away and give it somewhere else,
> like education or creative training, and make sports the leisure activity as
> it is and reward it accordingly, and we might see the jobs located somewhere
> else.  Why does the guy who sells his endorsement get 20 million a year and
> the guy who makes the shoes get only 300 bucks?  A lack of intelligent
> priorities.  When I see MJ speaking up for the factory workers in Jakarta
> I'll feel better about him.
>
Feel how you wish.  The guy is a rare and fantastic athlete.  At the same
time, how many musicians are making a point to look into the union benefits
package afforded the guys who press CD's?

> Well, just as a thought experiment, let me ask you--what has provided a
> greater service in your life?  Learning to appreciate a three-pointer by
> Allen Iverson or learning how to read and write and do basic math problems?
> I'm going to jump ahead and assume, perhaps wrongly, the latter.  In which
> case, why does the former deserve 500 times as much money as the one who
> trains in the latter?  Why is it we can remember Kareem Jabbar but can't
> recall the teacher who taught us the most fundamental skills to get by in
> life?  My wager is that the seductive spectacle is more immediately
> compelling than the hard, arduous labor of learning and teaching.  Once
> again, misplaced priorities.  We've learned to take our most basic education
> (and our educators) for granted.
>

I remember -- and learned deeply from -- guys like Henry Aaron, who
presented such a sharp, clear picture of dignity and fair play to a lot of
us at an early age that it was every bit as notable and miraculous as his
home run crown.  I thought then and think now he was a fantastic role model,
especially in light of the racist bullshit he dealt with.  Death threats
from crackers who didn't want him to break a white man's record didn;t turn
him into Al Sharpton.  I always admired that (especially growing up in the
Philadelphia run by Frank Rizzo).

And I remember the teachers who gave me all the important tools.  My high
school music teacher is still one of my better friends.  I never took those
people for granted.  With the many rancid excuses for teachers I had, the
good and great ones were nothing less than beacons.

skip h


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 09:06:58 -0800
From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: How Come? INSTANT POLL

on 3/24/02 8:50 AM, [e-mail] at [e-mail] wrote:

> How about "no where to run"
>
> -
>
I was thinking "In My Room", or, for you Bill Evans fans, perhaps "The Two
Lonely People"

sh


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 09:36:56 -0800
From: Dave Trenkel <[e-mail]>
Subject: re: graham haynes/big gundown live?

At 8:01 AM +0000 3/24/2002, nors5379 wrote:
>i am relatively new to graham haynes, but the knit factory
>sent me 2 of his discs this past christmas when they had the
>buy 3 get 2 free sale. one was opera zone with bill laswell,
>and upon receiving i thought it was oging to be real lousy
>album (first thought was... electronica opera?) but its a
>really solid disc. something you can throw in for background
>music and it sets the mood quite well. the other disc was
>RPM, which i havent given much of a listen to but it does
>have that drum and bass kind of vibe that was mentioned with
>the group in seattle.

Hayne's KF disc is actually called "BPM", and is, I think, one of the
better jazz meets drum 'n bass discs. It starts out with a piece that
layers a Wagner orchestral loop with Brazilian  percussion, a
combination that never fails to crack me up. Haynes has a couple of
earlier discs that use electronics, that, while I don't think they're
as successful as BPM, might be worth looking into, I liked parts of
his "Tones for the 21st Century" quite a lot. Also, he appears on a
lot of recent Laswell discs.



- --
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dave Trenkel                                New and Improv Music
http://www.newandimprov.com         [e-mail]
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 12:33:16 -0600
From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn List Digest V3 #847

On Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 10:00:29AM +0100, Verstraeten Stefan wrote:

> -different attitudes (I remember f.e. that joseph gave interesting help
> towards the use of "cartridge music" in merzbows music... definitely not the
> tone he is using now and recently)

Hmm... since I hadn't heard Merzbow until a few months ago, I wonder
what I might have said about his music in the past... :-)

- --
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 12:51:53 -0500
From: Mike Chamberlain <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: radical jewish culture and other favorite Z-list topics

> on 3/24/02 1:51 AM, Bill Ashline at [e-mail] wrote:
>
>

>> Well, just as a thought experiment, let me ask you--what has provided a
>> greater service in your life?  Learning to appreciate a three-pointer by
>> Allen Iverson or learning how to read and write and do basic math problems?
>> I'm going to jump ahead and assume, perhaps wrongly, the latter.  In which
>> case, why does the former deserve 500 times as much money as the one who
>> trains in the latter?  Why is it we can remember Kareem Jabbar but can't
>> recall the teacher who taught us the most fundamental skills to get by in
>> life?  My wager is that the seductive spectacle is more immediately
>> compelling than the hard, arduous labor of learning and teaching.  Once
>> again, misplaced priorities.  We've learned to take our most basic education
>> (and our educators) for granted.
>>
>
Bill, the sad fact is that my courses are not broadcast around the world on
TV, and nobody pays millions in ad time for those non-existent broadcasts.
The day that starts happening, that's the day that my pay will come a little
more in line with Iverson's.

- --Mike


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 20:40:12 +0100
From: "Verstraeten Stefan" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn List Digest V3 #847

Hello,
The reason you answered was because the merzbox contained some cds that were
based on john cages cartridge music.
You explained:
- -what this music was
- -where it came from
- -how this could be recognised

Anyway, it was a great help that i got from you and helped me on how to
experience merbows music a lot better...

But as said, the whole discussion had a different tone than we have these
days...

Ps Thanks for all the warm kind words off-line from a lot of zornlisters
(some of them I remember years ago). It seems that a lot more people want
the return of "the old zornlist".... but hey, who knows, one day....

Best wishes,
Stefan Verstraeten

[e-mail]

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
To: Verstraeten Stefan <[e-mail]>
Cc: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2002 7:33 PM
Subject: Re: Zorn List Digest V3 #847


> On Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 10:00:29AM +0100, Verstraeten Stefan wrote:
>
> > -different attitudes (I remember f.e. that joseph gave interesting help
> > towards the use of "cartridge music" in merzbows music... definitely not
the
> > tone he is using now and recently)
>
> Hmm... since I hadn't heard Merzbow until a few months ago, I wonder
> what I might have said about his music in the past... :-)
>
> --
> | [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
> | New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
> |                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
> | Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
> | Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |
>
>


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 16:46:32 -0500
From: Rich Williams <[e-mail]>
Subject: re: graham haynes/big gundown live?

>my other question is, is there any such thing as a LIVE big
>gundown? i pulled out the disc earlier this week and was
>absolutely blown away once again. i guess i just want to
>hear how that would be pulled off if it was live.
>-darryl.

    It was performed at BAM in 86 and in Europe in 88. The NYC
show was very well done, 15-20 musicians. Milano Odea performed with
4 guitarists (Frith,Arto,Quine,Frisell) and Shelley Hirsh singing on
Erotico
were highlights for me.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 13:59:39 -0800
From: "john schuller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Cd and  Vinyl Pressing question

Does anyone here have experience with getting CD's and/or Vinyl pressed? I
am hoping for any help in the areas of "use these guys" or "avoid these
guys".

Thanks,
John


_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 23:11:34 +0000
From: "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: radical jewish culture and other favorite Z-list topics

>From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>

  At the same
>time, how many musicians are making a point to look into the union benefits
>package afforded the guys who press CD's?

good point, skip.

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 18:35:31 -0500
From: "Nirav Soni" <[e-mail]>
Subject: "...than a spoonfull of starmatter"

y'all,

I've become kinda curious about some of the more metallic things a propos to
this list via "Leng T'che" .
What I seek is the slow, the cataclysmic, monstrously dense, epic (not so
much the sword and sorcery styled epic, but the soul collapsing in on it
self...the subjectively epic). Rocking is good, rocking with experiemental
tendancies is even
better. I've heard good things about Boris and Corrupted, but have yet to
check either out. Can foaks give me some pointers with regard to those two,
and anything else related? I'm familiar with Skullflower and Fushisusha, but
I'm more in the market for the tortured and anguised than the psych-tinged.

Cheers!
Nirav
- --
NP- Windsor for the Derby- Earnest Powers + (Emperor Jones)
NR- _The Tin Drum_- Gunter Grass
AIM: Icefactory37
"Duration is to the consciousness as light is to the eye" - Bill Viola



- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 18:40:57 -0500
From: "Zachary Steiner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Zappa Recommendations

I seem to remember a rather long thread on Zappa recommendations.  I
don't want to rehash it, but does any one know when this thread occurred
so I can look it up in the archives?

Thanks,
Zach



- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 19:03:01 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: goddamn i'm dumb.  (was: Re: toshimaru nakamura.)

everyone everyone,

i'm sorry.  i am dumb and i was tired and the two add up to my faux pas on the japanese names...
it was indeed nobukazu takemura.  muchos apologies, sorry for my ignorance, blah blah.  it doesn't change how awesome he was, though.

he's dan the automator?  now i'm REALLY confused.

love,
  k8.  sorry sorry

- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V3 #851
*******************************


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