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2002-03-23
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From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest)
To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Zorn List Digest V3 #850
Reply-To: zorn-list
Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Precedence: bulk
Zorn List Digest Sunday, March 24 2002 Volume 03 : Number 850
In this issue:
-
Re: radical biologically jewish culture
Re: knocking on the gates
Re: knocking on the gates
Re: radical jewish culture and other favorite Z-list topics
Re: radical jewish culture and other favorite Z-list topics
Re: radical jewish culture and other favorite Z-list topics
toshimaru nakamura.
Re: toshimaru nakamura.
Re: toshimaru nakamura.
Re: toshimaru nakamura.
Re: hiphop
re: graham haynes/big gundown live?
Re: knocking on the gates
Re: knocking on the gates
Re: knocking on the gates
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 20:10:29 -0600
From: Joseph Zitt <jzitt@metatronpress.com>
Subject: Re: radical biologically jewish culture
On Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 01:57:18AM +0100, duncan youngerman wrote:
> > While I agree mostly with your email, I do think that in this point, the
> > incongruity is intentional. Sure Zorn may do some things that stretch the
> > truth a little, but in this case I think he may actually be exercising a
> > little tongue in cheek. He's produced these three tributes to musicians he
> > likes, and because they are Jewish he's given them the funny title of 'Great
> > Jewish Music'. Well, it may not be literally funny, but it is to him I'm
> > sure...
>
> I'll accept that it can be funny if he accepts that it can be irritating.
I suspect that being irritating has never bothered Zorn :-)
- --
| jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems |
| http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 17:27:06 -0800
From: skip Heller <velaires@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: knocking on the gates
on 3/23/02 6:06 PM, Joseph Zitt at jzitt@metatronpress.com wrote:
> One problem with these kinda questions are that things that seem
> utterly unprecedented and without context when they first appear often
> are contextualized by what comes out in their wake. For example,
> having the archival John Cale/La Monte Young/Angus MacLise et al
> releases that have come out in the last couple of years put the Velvet
> Underground in context to some extent. Would they have sounded quite
> so groundbreaking if these earlier materials were better known?
Probably not. But they were the ones who could secure a record deal, so
they were responsible for getting a certain kind of information out to the
consumership. And, interestingly, that the C/YMacL stuff has appeared does
not seemed to have changed anyone's most basic reactions -- good or bad --
to the VU.
skip h
PS PiL's FLOWERS OF ROMANCE definitely belongs on my list of groundbreaking
records.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 17:29:44 -0800
From: skip Heller <velaires@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: knocking on the gates
> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.
- --MS_Mac_OE_3099749384_2000900_MIME_Part
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
on 3/23/02 4:54 PM, TagYrIt@aol.com at TagYrIt@aol.com wrote:
Well see, I was taking this challenge a lot more deeply than most responses
have seemed to indicate, and I've been wracking my brain to think of
something I find completely innovative. The only possible candidate I can
come up with so far is MAYBE (and I'm not entirely convinced myself) Harry
Partch. As much of a landmark as Pet Sounds is (and I do have the utmost
respect for it) what does it offer that you couldn't get from crossing, say,
the Four Lads with Aaron Copeland?
Dale.
A Chinese guy for whom I played Partch shrugged and said it sounded an
awfully lot like kabuki theater music with extra percussion, so maybe Bill
Evans was right -- one's notion of innovation is closely tied to the culture
in which you're raised.
As for your PET SOUNDS theory, I can only say that I never heard Copeland's
work with the Four Lads.
skip h
- --MS_Mac_OE_3099749384_2000900_MIME_Part
Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Re: knocking on the gates</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
on 3/23/02 4:54 PM, TagYrIt@aol.com at TagYrIt@aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000A0"><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Comic Sans MS"=
><B>Well see, I was taking this challenge a lot more deeply than most respon=
ses have seemed to indicate, and I've been wracking my brain to think of som=
ething I find completely innovative. The only <I>possible</I> candidate I ca=
n come up with so far is MAYBE (and I'm not entirely convinced myself) Harry=
Partch. As much of a landmark as Pet Sounds is (and I do have the utmost re=
spect for it) what does it offer that you couldn't get from crossing, say, t=
he Four Lads with Aaron Copeland?<BR>
<BR>
Dale.<BR>
</B></FONT></FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000A0"><FONT FACE=3D"Com=
ic Sans MS"><H5><BR>
</H5></FONT></FONT><BR>
A Chinese guy for whom I played Partch shrugged and said it sounded an awfu=
lly lot like kabuki theater music with extra percussion, so maybe Bill Evans=
was right -- one's notion of innovation is closely tied to the culture in w=
hich you're raised.<BR>
<BR>
As for your PET SOUNDS theory, I can only say that I never heard Copeland's=
work with the Four Lads.<BR>
<BR>
skip h
</BODY>
</HTML>
- --MS_Mac_OE_3099749384_2000900_MIME_Part--
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 17:51:26 -0800
From: "s~Z" <keithmar@msn.com>
Subject: Re: radical jewish culture and other favorite Z-list topics
>>>As with other points in this discussion, it's not an either/or.
Of
course we are to some extent the effects of social and political
stasis. And of course we are potential movers of change. And
recognizing each is crucial to recognizing the other.<<<
Deep thought, man. Deep thought.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 02:13:07 +0000
From: "Bill Ashline" <bashline@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: radical jewish culture and other favorite Z-list topics
>From: skip Heller <velaires@earthlink.net>
>But most Americans agree to it, and, often when I meet teachers,
>I am appalled at who gets certified.
Well, that in itself is a general reflection of the larger intellectual
culture in the states. It's also a reflection of the many who finally got
fed up and left the field and the low salaries to the less qualified. I've
been reading a lot of sad stories in the NY Times of late about this
problem.
> >
>Well, that's your cross to bear.
Well, judging from Columbine and other cases, it's a cross we're all going
to be bearing, in one form or another, from now on. As a tribute to the
education system, we might have a mediocre intellect chosen by a fleet set
of justices to manage a very powerful country's foreign policy to the
detriment of many both inside and outside the republic.
>I get the feeling you hate the notion of
>sports as a rule somehow. Personally, the last real philsophical crisis I
>faced was last yr when my home team (Lakers) was up against my hometown
>team
>(76ers). And don't get me started on boxing.
Sports as a "rule" or as a "ruler"? I'm actually a sports fan. Following
the NCAA's at the moment in fact. But let's keep it all in perspective.
When Michael Jordan earns more from his Nike contract than all the people
who make the shoes in a given locale, when half of the public university
courseload is now taught by part-time instructors without benefits, and when
a mediocre sub on the Knicks makes far more in a year than some of these
folks make in a lifetime, something is severely out of wack. And if we
can't see that as a problem, then we've got no moral scruples whatsoever.
_________________________________________________________________
Join the worldÆs largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
http://www.hotmail.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 18:34:49 -0800
From: skip Heller <velaires@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: radical jewish culture and other favorite Z-list topics
on 3/23/02 6:13 PM, Bill Ashline at bashline@hotmail.com wrote:
>judging from Columbine and other cases, it's a cross we're all going
> to be bearing, in one form or another, from now on. As a tribute to the
> education system, we might have a mediocre intellect chosen by a fleet set
> of justices to manage a very powerful country's foreign policy to the
> detriment of many both inside and outside the republic.
This is a problem that dates back to John Wayne movies, unfortunately. It
has only gotten worse as more and more high-level blockbuster movies espouse
that same philsophy of "good guys shoot their tormentors with big guns". On
the other hand, if you're the kind of guy who's gonna get a gun and shoot
people in the name of vindication, whether or not there's a Terminator movie
(or a heavy metal record) probably has little to do with the reality that
you're gonna shoot people. A Gumby cartoon could set you off in you're that
far out there. A little hands-on parenting wouldn't hurt, but few parents
seem to want to move past "quality time". Between this and poor education
- -- despite those few teachers who are trying whatever they can to give their
students something useful -- we've got some serious problems.
And I agree with you about the mediocre minds defining our country's
policies. Except that I don't think it "might happen". I think that in
many ways we're seeing it in action.
>when
> a mediocre sub on the Knicks makes far more in a year than some of these
> folks make in a lifetime, something is severely out of wack. And if we
> can't see that as a problem, then we've got no moral scruples whatsoever.
>
Then I've got no morals whatsoever. You know how much work Shaq and Kobe
generate for how many people? These guys aren't basketball players --
they're economies. If the start-up money for those economies is obscene
(and it is), then just imagine how many dollars go 'round to keep that stuff
in business.
If it was Cecil taylor pulling in that kind of dough, nobody -- myself
included -- around these parts would complain. But I submit that what a
truly great basketball player does is just as specialized as what a great
piano player does, especially when you consider how many tangental
industries are made possible by putting that guy's face on t-shirts etc. I
agree about the mediocre sub guys. There really should be a salary cap
based on some ind of statistical evidence of consistent performance ability.
But I think the leading lights in any entertainment endeavor -- music,
sports, sculpture -- are worth whatever it takes to have them (he said as he
remembered what Dr J did for the local morale when he was growing up in
Philly).
skip h
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 01:24:28 EST
From: UFOrbK8@aol.com
Subject: toshimaru nakamura.
In a message dated 03.23.02 19.17.29, letucepry@yahoo.com writes:
>You should check out some of the things that
>Toshimaru Nakamura is or has been doing with no-input
>mixing board and very very very high frequencies
>although I don't really know how this will translate
>to CD, as microphone placement, type, frequency range,
>and the actual limit of 44100 Hz CD format have a
>great effect on sine waves around 13000 Hz...
>If you do buy any of these, do it to support Toshimaru
>Nakamura, and don't bother listening to them very
>much...(if you're wondering, I've seen Toshimaru
>Nakamura several times and quite honestly never heard
>anything remotely close to that on CD. There are times
>when you can't hear sounds, you can only feel them in
>your teeth, or as an unexplainable anxiety which goes
>away when he switches notes)
i just had to jump in here - i saw plaid with toshimaru nakamura last night
at the metro in chicago, and he actually blew plaid away, in my opinion. it
was physically painful at times, and made me have to go to the bathroom, but
it was intensely cool. and his visual aspect was intensely cool, too.
mmm.
plaid had a computer crash in mid-set which was weak as hell. i was pissed.
love,
k8.
- ---
[.n0thing.is.what.is.sAid.]
k a t e p e t e r s o n
c o m p o s e r / p e r f o r m e r
http://www.geocities.com/uforbk8/kate.html
http://www.icefoundation.org (roundtable)
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 01:23:56 -0600
From: Joseph Zitt <jzitt@metatronpress.com>
Subject: Re: toshimaru nakamura.
On Sun, Mar 24, 2002 at 01:24:28AM -0500, UFOrbK8@aol.com wrote:
> plaid had a computer crash in mid-set which was weak as hell. i was pissed.
How did they deal with it? Considering the crankiness of some of the
computers I've dealt with in performance, I don't think I'd dare
perform without a backup plan of how to continue while rebooting.
- --
| jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems |
| http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 01:35:56 EST
From: UFOrbK8@aol.com
Subject: Re: toshimaru nakamura.
In a message dated 03.24.02 01.33.45, jzitt@metatronpress.com writes:
>How did they deal with it? Considering the crankiness of some of the
>computers I've dealt with in performance, I don't think I'd dare
>perform without a backup plan of how to continue while rebooting.
it's a little unclear how they dealt with it. they had two G4 powerbooks
going, but i don't know how they were generating sound - in a lot of ways it
sounded as though they could have just been jockeying off of mp3 but i hope
that's not the case - in any event, i'm pretty sure that they split the
sounds per song up amongst the two computers. so one guy took over
completely while the other guy rebooted. there were a few seconds of sucky
silence, and they had to change songs 'cause it was all fucked up...
computers can really suck live.
k
- ---
[.n0thing.is.what.is.sAid.]
k a t e p e t e r s o n
c o m p o s e r / p e r f o r m e r
http://www.geocities.com/uforbk8/kate.html
http://www.icefoundation.org (roundtable)
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 23:19:08 -0800
From: skip Heller <velaires@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: toshimaru nakamura.
> computers can really suck live.
>
> k
>
gee, what was your first clue?
sh
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 02:18:25 EST
From: Brennansf@aol.com
Subject: Re: hiphop
Somehow I doubt it.
jb
> you'll be rooting for him to exact revenge.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 08:01:37 GMT
From: "nors5379" <nors5379@fredonia.edu>
Subject: re: graham haynes/big gundown live?
i am relatively new to graham haynes, but the knit factory
sent me 2 of his discs this past christmas when they had the
buy 3 get 2 free sale. one was opera zone with bill laswell,
and upon receiving i thought it was oging to be real lousy
album (first thought was... electronica opera?) but its a
really solid disc. something you can throw in for background
music and it sets the mood quite well. the other disc was
RPM, which i havent given much of a listen to but it does
have that drum and bass kind of vibe that was mentioned with
the group in seattle.
my other question is, is there any such thing as a LIVE big
gundown? i pulled out the disc earlier this week and was
absolutely blown away once again. i guess i just want to
hear how that would be pulled off if it was live.
- -darryl.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 03:11:22 -0500
From: David Beardsley <db@biink.com>
Subject: Re: knocking on the gates
Re: knocking on the gates----- Original Message -----
From: skip Heller
>A Chinese guy for whom I played Partch shrugged and said it
>sounded an awfully lot like kabuki theater music with extra percussion,
>so maybe Bill Evans was right -- one's notion of innovation is closely
>tied to the culture in which you're raised.
If I remember correctly and I probably don't, Partch's parents
were missionaries in China and he spent his early years there.
The problem with this theory is that Kabuki is a traditional form of
Japanese theater.
It's not like he wasn't familiar with Kabuki - he mentions it
a few times in first chapter of Genesis of a Music - he seems
to have been a bit of an ethnomusicologist, being familiar
with many types of opera and musical theatre that he used as
an influence on his own music.
Sort of a lapsed Partch scholar (this being of course, me)
who can only vaguely remember the facts...
* David Beardsley
* http://biink.com
* http://mp3.com/davidbeardsley
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 00:25:31 -0800
From: skip Heller <velaires@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: knocking on the gates
on 3/24/02 12:11 AM, David Beardsley at db@biink.com wrote:
> Re: knocking on the gates----- Original Message -----
> From: skip Heller
>
>> A Chinese guy for whom I played Partch shrugged and said it
>> sounded an awfully lot like kabuki theater music with extra percussion,
>> so maybe Bill Evans was right -- one's notion of innovation is closely
>> tied to the culture in which you're raised.
>
> If I remember correctly and I probably don't, Partch's parents
> were missionaries in China and he spent his early years there.
>
> The problem with this theory is that Kabuki is a traditional form of
> Japanese theater.
The guy in question spent as much time in Japan as he did in Taiwan (he was
an industro brat).
> It's not like he wasn't familiar with Kabuki - he mentions it
> a few times in first chapter of Genesis of a Music - he seems
> to have been a bit of an ethnomusicologist, being familiar
> with many types of opera and musical theatre that he used as
> an influence on his own music.
>
> Sort of a lapsed Partch scholar (this being of course, me)
> who can only vaguely remember the facts...
>
Big problem with being an amatuer Partch scholar (I share this with you) --
Barstow (the town, not the composition) is a letdown. One very
dead-from-the-dick-up town with bad weather and a zillion meth labs. And I
couldn't find Monrovia St besides.
skip h
skip h
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 03:48:11 -0500
From: David Beardsley <db@biink.com>
Subject: Re: knocking on the gates
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "skip Heller" <velaires@earthlink.net>
To: "David Beardsley" <db@biink.com>; <TagYrIt@aol.com>;
<zorn-list@lists.xmission.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2002 3:25 AM
Subject: Re: knocking on the gates
> on 3/24/02 12:11 AM, David Beardsley at db@biink.com wrote:
>
> > Re: knocking on the gates----- Original Message -----
> > From: skip Heller
> >
> >> A Chinese guy for whom I played Partch shrugged and said it
> >> sounded an awfully lot like kabuki theater music with extra percussion,
> >> so maybe Bill Evans was right -- one's notion of innovation is closely
> >> tied to the culture in which you're raised.
> >
> > If I remember correctly and I probably don't, Partch's parents
> > were missionaries in China and he spent his early years there.
> >
> > The problem with this theory is that Kabuki is a traditional form of
> > Japanese theater.
>
> The guy in question spent as much time in Japan as he did in Taiwan (he
was
> an industro brat).
OK
> > It's not like he wasn't familiar with Kabuki - he mentions it
> > a few times in first chapter of Genesis of a Music - he seems
> > to have been a bit of an ethnomusicologist, being familiar
> > with many types of opera and musical theatre that he used as
> > an influence on his own music.
> >
> > Sort of a lapsed Partch scholar (this being of course, me)
> > who can only vaguely remember the facts...
> >
> Big problem with being an amatuer Partch scholar (I share this with
you) --
If I just read the facts recently I'd be a bit more up on this.
I'd suggest contacting my friends at http://www.corporeal.com/cm_main.html
to clear things up.
> Barstow (the town, not the composition) is a letdown. One very
> dead-from-the-dick-up town with bad weather and a zillion meth labs. And
I
> couldn't find Monrovia St besides.
Wasn't the the whole point? Barstow is no where! A real dead end,
even today!
* David Beardsley
* http://biink.com
* http://mp3.com/davidbeardsley
- -
------------------------------
End of Zorn List Digest V3 #850
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