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From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest)
To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Zorn List Digest V3 #846
Reply-To: zorn-list
Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Precedence: bulk
Zorn List Digest Friday, March 22 2002 Volume 03 : Number 846
In this issue:
-
Re: flag-waving, packaging and martyrdom
Re: flag-waving ("why intellectuals?")
Re: flag-waving ("why intellectuals?")
Re: How Come?
Re: flag-waving ("why intellectuals?")
Re: flag-waving ("why intellectuals?")
Re: flag-waving ("why intellectuals?")
Re: How Come?
Re: How Come?
Re: How Come?
RE: How Come?
Re: How Come?
Re: How Come?
RE: How Come?
We Insist! Freedom Now Suite
radical jewish culture and other favorite Z-list topics
Re: How Come?
Re: How Come?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 18:34:56 -0600
From: Joseph Zitt <jzitt@metatronpress.com>
Subject: Re: flag-waving, packaging and martyrdom
On Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 12:21:50AM +0100, duncan youngerman wrote:
> > I find Wagner boring as hell.
>
> Give an ear to the preludes to Acts 1, 2 and 3 of "Tristan", please...
I'll try to get it at our (surprisingly well-stocked) local library
tomorrow. Thanks for the recommendation.
> If one million Americans would gather in Washington in protest of the
> Bush Kyoto treaty rejection, the world would breathe a little bit
> better.
Did the famous Million Man March on Washington some years back have
any effect on the government in the long run?
- --
| jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems |
| http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 00:54:53 +0100
From: duncan youngerman <y-man@wanadoo.fr>
Subject: Re: flag-waving ("why intellectuals?")
>
>
> > I simply expect that when there are serious issues at stake, intellectuals
> > should put their work on a side and help bringing some light. Am I asking
> > so much? History has shown them quicker to react. Why have they become
> > so aphatic?
>
> Why intellectuals? As stated earlier, they have little effect.
Socrates, Jesus, St Augustine, Luther, Galileo, Copernicus, Rousseau, Voltaire,
Adam Smith, Jefferson, Madison, Thoreau, Marx, Darwin, Hugo, Zola , Nietzche,
Hertzl, Freud, Einstein, Gandhi, Sartre, Camus, Dylan, Soljenitsin, Sakarov,
Havel, Rugova...?
D.
>
>
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 01:23:13 +0100
From: duncan youngerman <y-man@wanadoo.fr>
Subject: Re: flag-waving ("why intellectuals?")
=3D?US-ASCII?Q?Falcata-Galia_and_Tariff_Records?=3D a =E9crit :
> Ah, the best of the lot=2E Unfortunately, we don't have much on offer the=
se
> days, which is a shame=2E=2E=2E
>
> Rudy
These are the tip of the tip of the iceberg, and although I doubt Galileo wa=
s
known to his contemporaries, he did change the world=2E
The iceberg today is as important, if not much more important than ever, and
when necessary, the tip will emerge=2E
D=2E
>
> >
> >
> > > I simply expect that when there are serious issues at stake,
> intellectuals
> > > should put their work on a side and help bringing some light=2E Am I
> asking
> > > so much? History has shown them quicker to react=2E Why have they beco=
me
> > > so aphatic?
> >
> > Why intellectuals? As stated earlier, they have little effect=2E
>
> Socrates, Jesus, St Augustine, Luther, Galileo, Copernicus, Rousseau,
> Voltaire,
> Adam Smith, Jefferson, Madison, Thoreau, Marx, Darwin, Hugo, Zola ,
> Nietzche,
> Hertzl, Freud, Einstein, Gandhi, Sartre, Camus, Dylan, Soljenitsin, Sakaro=
v,
> Havel, Rugova=2E=2E=2E?
>
> D=2E
>
> >
> >
>
> -
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 16:30:59 -0800
From: "john schuller" <superbadassmofo@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: How Come?
This might not be as visible within the
>contemporary Western world, where this grounding in religion has grown
>quite weak, and thus easier to ignore and change. But for those raised
>with a strong religious background, it is as hard to completely change
>to another religion (barring otherwise cataclysmic
>emotional/psychological events) as it is to change one's mother
>tongue. And for those who were not raised with one, it is hard to
>comprehend, and thus easy to trivialize,
Mr. Zitt, if I understand you correctly what you are saying in the above
statement is that one's religion is something that can be changed. I would
then ask if one was to change their religion - would they be making a choice
to do so? Would the act of one changing their religion or becoming an
atheist come from choosing to do so? Do you see how your above statement
proves that to be true?
Would you also agree that one's identification with and practice of a
religion is a lifestyle? If not, why?
Can you also see that if one then chooses to be either Mormon, Jehovah's
Witness, Buddhist or Catholic they are also choosing a style of life that
goes hand in hand?
_________________________________________________________________
Join the worldÆs largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
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- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 19:37:50 -0600
From: Joseph Zitt <jzitt@metatronpress.com>
Subject: Re: flag-waving ("why intellectuals?")
On Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 12:54:53AM +0100, duncan youngerman wrote:
> >
> >
> > > I simply expect that when there are serious issues at stake, intellectuals
> > > should put their work on a side and help bringing some light. Am I asking
> > > so much? History has shown them quicker to react. Why have they become
> > > so aphatic?
> >
> > Why intellectuals? As stated earlier, they have little effect.
>
> Socrates, Jesus, St Augustine, Luther, Galileo, Copernicus, Rousseau, Voltaire,
> Adam Smith, Jefferson, Madison, Thoreau, Marx, Darwin, Hugo, Zola , Nietzche,
> Hertzl, Freud, Einstein, Gandhi, Sartre, Camus, Dylan, Soljenitsin, Sakarov,
> Havel, Rugova...?
Contemporary America...?
- --
| jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems |
| http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 16:49:51 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Subject: Re: flag-waving ("why intellectuals?")
On Fri, 22 Mar 2002 19:37:50 -0600 Joseph Zitt wrote:
>
> On Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 12:54:53AM +0100, duncan youngerman wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > > I simply expect that when there are serious issues at stake, intellectuals
> > > > should put their work on a side and help bringing some light. Am I asking
> > > > so much? History has shown them quicker to react. Why have they become
> > > > so aphatic?
> > >
> > > Why intellectuals? As stated earlier, they have little effect.
> >
> > Socrates, Jesus, St Augustine, Luther, Galileo, Copernicus, Rousseau, Voltaire,
> > Adam Smith, Jefferson, Madison, Thoreau, Marx, Darwin, Hugo, Zola , Nietzche,
> > Hertzl, Freud, Einstein, Gandhi, Sartre, Camus, Dylan, Soljenitsin, Sakarov,
> > Havel, Rugova...?
>
> Contemporary America...?
You Joseph, don't be so modest.
Patrice.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 20:14:01 -0600
From: Joseph Zitt <jzitt@metatronpress.com>
Subject: Re: flag-waving ("why intellectuals?")
On Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 04:49:51PM -0800, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:
> > > > Why intellectuals? As stated earlier, they have little effect.
> > >
> > > Socrates, Jesus, St Augustine, Luther, Galileo, Copernicus, Rousseau, Voltaire,
> > > Adam Smith, Jefferson, Madison, Thoreau, Marx, Darwin, Hugo, Zola , Nietzche,
> > > Hertzl, Freud, Einstein, Gandhi, Sartre, Camus, Dylan, Soljenitsin, Sakarov,
> > > Havel, Rugova...?
> >
> > Contemporary America...?
>
> You Joseph, don't be so modest.
I wouldn't consider myself an intellectual. Neither, I suspect, would
Jesus, Gandhi, or Dylan. Though maybe this is another of those words
with different connotations in Europe.
My father was once on a TV talk show in the 60s, G Wheeler's Electric
Essay, on a panel about Intellectuals. I don't remember much about it,
though, other than that he got me the autograph of Lorenzo the Clown.
- --
| jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems |
| http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 20:20:44 -0600
From: Joseph Zitt <jzitt@metatronpress.com>
Subject: Re: How Come?
On Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 04:30:59PM -0800, john schuller wrote:
> Can you also see that if one then chooses to be either Mormon, Jehovah's
> Witness, Buddhist or Catholic they are also choosing a style of life that
> goes hand in hand?
What do you mean by "style"?
- --
| jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems |
| http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 17:48:16 -0800
From: "john schuller" <superbadassmofo@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: How Come?
I use style as in the way in which something is done. And I use lifestyle as
a way of life or style of living that reflects the attitudes and values of a
person or group.
So, do you now see how religion is a lifestyle choice? Why do you refuse to
understand this? Do you care to retract your comments?
And see if you can answer this with a yes or no. Can one choose their
religion? Simple as that.
>From: Joseph Zitt <jzitt@metatronpress.com>
>To: john schuller <superbadassmofo@hotmail.com>
>CC: zorn-list@lists.xmission.com
>Subject: Re: How Come?
>Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 20:20:44 -0600
>
>On Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 04:30:59PM -0800, john schuller wrote:
>
> > Can you also see that if one then chooses to be either Mormon, Jehovah's
> > Witness, Buddhist or Catholic they are also choosing a style of life
>that
> > goes hand in hand?
>
>What do you mean by "style"?
>
>--
>| jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
>| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems |
>| http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
>| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
>| Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |
>
<html><DIV>
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<DIV> </DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></html>
_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 18:07:55 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Subject: Re: How Come?
On Fri, 22 Mar 2002 17:48:16 -0800 "john schuller" wrote:
>
> I use style as in the way in which something is done. And I use lifestyle as
> a way of life or style of living that reflects the attitudes and values of a
> person or group.
>
> So, do you now see how religion is a lifestyle choice? Why do you refuse to
> understand this? Do you care to retract your comments?
>
> And see if you can answer this with a yes or no. Can one choose their
> religion? Simple as that.
I don't remember Joseph ever taking the risk of answering by yes or no
such questions. It led me to the conclusion that in his mind, expecting
such answers was below human intelligence. That only people with
primitive minds would content themselves with such answers. Manicheism,
classification, dichotomy, boolean logic, proof, these are relics from
the dark age of the Enlightment where people were so misled that they
believed there was objective truth, and the challenge was to find it.
How could a citizen of the modern world, with all its multiplicity,
could even ask for yes or no? This is the logic of your grandad, does
not fit the multi dimensional complexity of the world you live in :-).
Why answering with a yes or a no? This could be hold against you in the
future. Not answering with a yes or no is the first rule you learn to
use when you want to be able to keep an argument running ad nausea (as
well as to avoid a commitment). At worse, if somebody forces you to
answer by yes or no, you can call to the rescue the usual dialectic
tricks: the question is wrongly asked (a classic, never wears out), or
the terminology is uncertain (quite popular in certain milieux), etc.
With all the subtleties between yes and no, it would be sad to have to make
a choice for one or the other. On the altar of dichotomy, you shan't kneel!
Repeat that ten times before going to bed :-).
Patrice.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 21:10:52 -0500
From: "Zachary Steiner" <zsteiner@butler.edu>
Subject: RE: How Come?
>> And see if you can answer this with a yes or no. Can one choose their
religion? Simple as that.
Yes. Further still a person can choose to what extent they want to
practice their given religion, if at all.
Zach
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 18:55:11 -0800
From: "s~Z" <keithmar@msn.com>
Subject: Re: How Come?
>>>What do you mean by "style"?<<<
What is meant by "you" and what is meant by "choosing"?
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 18:59:27 -0800
From: "s~Z" <keithmar@msn.com>
Subject: Re: How Come?
>>>Yes. Further still a person can choose to what extent they
want to
practice their given religion, if at all.<<<
The concept of "choice" is laughable if "you" investigate it
deeply.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 22:08:28 -0500
From: "Zachary Steiner" <zsteiner@butler.edu>
Subject: RE: How Come?
>> The concept of "choice" is laughable if "you" investigate it
deeply.
I take it you are a Skinnerian... Isn't it choice for "me" to
investigate it deeply or not?
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 22:47:11 -0500
From: "Zachary Steiner" <zsteiner@butler.edu>
Subject: We Insist! Freedom Now Suite
I asked a couple of weeks about this album and where I could find it. I
found it on CD at the Candid Records website and it was pretty
reasonable, even to ship from England. Thanks for every one who helped
me figure out the name of this album.
Zach
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 05:10:37 +0000
From: "Bill Ashline" <bashline@hotmail.com>
Subject: radical jewish culture and other favorite Z-list topics
I've never understood why some associate the radical jewish culture series
with the state of Israel or events in the Middle East, as if Jewishness is
reducible to Israel or "radical" is metonymically equivalent with violence.
This doesn't make any sense. "Radical" does not have that designation. It
means "getting to the roots of things." Given that, I could see why Joe
would get irritated with these kinds of associations and reductions. As
does, I'm sure, Steve Fruitman, who knows far more about this stuff than I,
but would probably rather do something else than refute the claims of anyone
who comes along.
I think it was Skip who said something about the political task of
intellectuals in the states. It should be born in mind that the role of
public intellectuals in America has declined considerably since the fifties.
That was when the public intellectuals left urban centers, particularly
New York, and went to the campuses, where they could afford things like
housing after the high-cost revamping of urban dwellings. This has been
going on now for fifty years. Witness Lawrence Ferlinghetti's essay on
gentrification in San Francisco in a recent issue of Counter Punch. When
intellectuals are dispersed away from the centers of active political
dissent, there are fewer opportunities to join hands with working people in
those areas or publish materials that can have some effect. At the
universities, they are forced into the either/or logic of publish or perish
in journals catering to narrower audiences. It's easy for people to
criticize the intellectual classes in the states. But few recognize that
their marginalization was to a large extent an effect of policy. See
Russell Jacoby's The Last Intellectuals for more details.
Speaking of the RJC, who's been listening to Raz Mesinai's excellent "Before
the Law" dedicated to Kafka? Now there's an occasion where facile
dismissals of the RJC run into problems--a jewish diasporic musician who
travelled with the Bedouin interpreting through sound the most anti-state
fiction writer of the last century. What would dear old Kafka think about
Ariel Sharon were he alive now?
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 00:27:54 -0600
From: Joseph Zitt <jzitt@metatronpress.com>
Subject: Re: How Come?
On Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 05:48:16PM -0800, john schuller wrote:
> And see if you can answer this with a yes or no. Can one choose their
> religion? Simple as that.
No, not simple as that.
- --
| jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems |
| http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 21:54:48 -0800
From: "john schuller" <superbadassmofo@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: How Come?
Yes it is. Either yes or no. Why do you fail to see this? I believe it
because you have nothing to back yourself up with. In your last attempt you
admitted that people can change their religion, am I wrong? Is it not the
individual's choice? Can you not understand that if someone has the option
to change something, and take action to make a change or not make a change
it is by choice? Care to retract your statements yet?
>From: Joseph Zitt <jzitt@metatronpress.com>
>To: john schuller <superbadassmofo@hotmail.com>
>CC: zorn-list@lists.xmission.com
>Subject: Re: How Come?
>Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 00:27:54 -0600
>
>On Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 05:48:16PM -0800, john schuller wrote:
>
> > And see if you can answer this with a yes or no. Can one choose their
> > religion? Simple as that.
>
>No, not simple as that.
>
>--
>| jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
>| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems |
>| http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
>| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
>| Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |
>
<html><DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></html>
_________________________________________________________________
Join the worldÆs largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
http://www.hotmail.com
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------------------------------
End of Zorn List Digest V3 #846
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