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From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest)
To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Zorn List Digest V3 #847
Reply-To: zorn-list
Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Precedence: bulk
Zorn List Digest Saturday, March 23 2002 Volume 03 : Number 847
In this issue:
-
RE: How Come?
Re: How Come?
Re: radical jewish culture and other favorite Z-list topics
RE: How Come?
Re: How Come?
Re: How Come?
Re: We Insist!
Re: How Come? INSTANT POLL
Re: Ooops!... Britney again!
Re: How Come?
Odp: Previte/Frith/Some Questions
Joseph and John
Recent message
Re: flag-waving, packaging and martyrdom
RE: radical jewish culture and other favorite Z-list topics
Dumbing down America
schuller and zitt
Re: radical jewish culture and other favorite Z-list topics
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 01:23:41 -0500
From: "Zachary Steiner" <zsteiner@butler.edu>
Subject: RE: How Come?
> And see if you can answer this with a yes or no. Can one choose their
> religion? Simple as that.
>> No, not simple as that.
Simple in description, but not in practice. I'll grant you that much.
Zach
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 01:32:11 -0600
From: Joseph Zitt <jzitt@metatronpress.com>
Subject: Re: How Come?
On Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 09:54:48PM -0800, john schuller wrote:
> Yes it is. Either yes or no. Why do you fail to see this? I believe it
> because you have nothing to back yourself up with.
*sigh*
Yes, you probably do believe this. And some people believe that the
Earth is flat.
- --
| jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems |
| http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 01:27:16 -0600
From: Joseph Zitt <jzitt@metatronpress.com>
Subject: Re: radical jewish culture and other favorite Z-list topics
On Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 05:10:37AM +0000, Bill Ashline wrote:
> I've never understood why some associate the radical jewish culture series
> with the state of Israel or events in the Middle East, as if Jewishness is
> reducible to Israel or "radical" is metonymically equivalent with violence.
> This doesn't make any sense. "Radical" does not have that designation. It
> means "getting to the roots of things."
Someone once said that England and the US were two nations divided by
a common language. I'm suspecting that this is even more true as
English gets used elsewhere. It appears that, to some in Europe, the
word "Radical" has rather different connotations than to
Americans. That they insist that an artist stateside accept their use
of the term, however, is akin to an American getting annoyed at the
British use of the term "petrol" rather than "gasoline."
I do recognize, however, that words grow meanings that often expand
beyond, and have little to do with, their linguistic roots: few who
use the word "cartoon" know or care that it apparently came from the
Italian word for "pasteboard". (I certainly didn't, until I wondered
about it for no particular reason about an hour ago.)
> That was when the public intellectuals left urban centers, particularly
> New York, and went to the campuses, where they could afford things like
> housing after the high-cost revamping of urban dwellings. This has been
> going on now for fifty years. Witness Lawrence Ferlinghetti's essay on
> gentrification in San Francisco in a recent issue of Counter Punch.[...] See
> Russell Jacoby's The Last Intellectuals for more details.
I hadn't known this. I'll have to look into these references. Thanks.
- --
| jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems |
| http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 23:33:13 -0800
From: "john schuller" <superbadassmofo@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: How Come?
I was refering to the act of answering a yes or no question.
>From: "Zachary Steiner" <zsteiner@butler.edu>
>To: "'Joseph Zitt'" <jzitt@metatronpress.com>, "'john schuller'"
><superbadassmofo@hotmail.com>
>CC: <zorn-list@lists.xmission.com>
>Subject: RE: How Come?
>Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 01:23:41 -0500
>
> > And see if you can answer this with a yes or no. Can one choose their
> > religion? Simple as that.
>
> >> No, not simple as that.
>
>Simple in description, but not in practice. I'll grant you that much.
>
>Zach
>
>
<html><DIV>
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_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 23:47:29 -0800
From: "john schuller" <superbadassmofo@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: How Come?
*sigh* Dodged it again. You are good at dodging questions when they are
given to you. The reason you dodge the question is because you haven't the
answer or you know your answer is full of holes. So instead it is much
easier for you to walk around it. I think now, I am almost done with you.
You continually deliver people questions in an attempt to show that you are
superior in intellect and rational thought yet haven't the ability to answer
these questions when given to you. Why is that? Why do you have the
inability to answer a yes or no question? The question itself is very easy
to answer with a yes or no. Feel free to take a stab at these again. You
dodged each of them last time they were asked.
"Mr. Zitt, if I understand you correctly what you are saying in the above
statement is that one's religion is something that can be changed. I would
then ask if one was to change their religion - would they be making a choice
to do so? Would the act of one changing their religion or becoming an
atheist come from choosing to do so? Do you see how your above statement
proves that to be true?
Would you also agree that one's identification with and practice of a
religion is a lifestyle? If not, why?
Can you also see that if one then chooses to be either Mormon, Jehovah's
Witness, Buddhist or Catholic they are also choosing a style of life that
goes hand in hand?"
And I hope you remember what I mean by style. I use style as in the way in
which something is done. And I use lifestyle as a way of life or style of
living that reflects the attitudes and values of a person or group.
>From: Joseph Zitt <jzitt@metatronpress.com>
>To: john schuller <superbadassmofo@hotmail.com>
>CC: zorn-list@lists.xmission.com
>Subject: Re: How Come?
>Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 01:32:11 -0600
>
>On Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 09:54:48PM -0800, john schuller wrote:
>
> > Yes it is. Either yes or no. Why do you fail to see this? I believe it
> > because you have nothing to back yourself up with.
>
>*sigh*
>
>Yes, you probably do believe this. And some people believe that the
>Earth is flat.
>
>--
>| jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
>| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems |
>| http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
>| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
>| Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |
<html><DIV>
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<DIV> </DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></html>
_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 02:43:20 -0600
From: Joseph Zitt <jzitt@metatronpress.com>
Subject: Re: How Come?
On Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 11:47:29PM -0800, john schuller wrote:
> Why do you have the
> inability to answer a yes or no question? The question itself is very easy
> to answer with a yes or no.
John, answer this first with a simple yes or no: Have you stopped
beating your wife?
- --
| jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems |
| http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 23:54:19 -0800
From: florid oratory <connah@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: We Insist!
zach, i suggest you enhance your listening pleasure with two other Crucial
albums from the same ferment:
"Percussion Bittersuite" by Max Roach, on Impulse
and "Straight Ahead" by Abbey Lincoln, on Candid
> From: "Zachary Steiner" <zsteiner@butler.edu>
> Subject: We Insist! Freedom Now Suite
>
> I asked a couple of weeks about this album and where I could find it. I
> found it on CD at the Candid Records website and it was pretty
> reasonable, even to ship from England. Thanks for every one who helped
> me figure out the name of this album.
>
> Zach
>
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 00:48:01 -0800
From: Jim Flannery <newgrange@sfo.com>
Subject: Re: How Come? INSTANT POLL
If this thread had a soundtrack, would it be ...
a) Cale/Riley, "The Hall of Mirrors in the Temple of Versailles"
b) Country Joe & the Fish, "Here We Go Again"
c) Flipper, "Brainwash"
- --
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jim Flannery newgrange@sfo.com
"Unexamined assumptions and axioms can be collected the
way one might collect stamps."
-- James Elkins
np: Radulovich/Fernandes, _The Whisper Chipper_
nr: John Lanchester, _The Debt to Pleasure_
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 19:02:53 +0100
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Efr=E9n_del_Valle?= <efrendv@yahoo.es>
Subject: Re: Ooops!... Britney again!
HI,
the underground filmmaker is generally struggling hard for the right to be a
Hollywood puppet. You think these guys like making movies on a budget that
is slightly less than what the trailer for a Spielberg movie costs?
skip h
Of course, not. I've been working in cinema for almost two years, basically
with American companies and I've seen many things. For instance, I've read
dozens of awful screenplays that hit the theatres while others that are
really worth the attention are lying on a shelf and their authors looking
for bar tending jobs. That means that a fat cat seizes the opportunity of
making a whole new thing (generally commercial garbage) out of your original
story because he/she knows that you're serving drinks and your future
expectations are not too attractive. This happened to a NYC guy I know not
so long ago.
I don't know what I'd do in such a situation. Unfortunately (or fortunately)
I'm working for the BAD ones. ;-)
Best,
EfrΘn del Valle
n.p: Yuka Honda "Memories Are My Only Witness" (tzadik)
- -
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 01:12:04 -0800
From: "john schuller" <superbadassmofo@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: How Come?
To compare the two questions side by side---
Can one choose their religion? and Have you stopped beating your wife?
The first question can be answered at anytime by one who has the ability to
make a decision. (it does not even include the words "you" or "I") The only
requirements are that someone is able to make a decision (not in a vegetable
state) and that there is more than one religion or lack thereof to choose
from. The question can be answered with a yes or no.
To answer the second question with a yes or no would require that I have a
wife and that I had or am presently beating my wife. Since I do not have a
wife the answer cannot come out as yes or no. The first question "Can one
choose their religion" can.
Try again. I have a lot of time this weekend.
>From: Joseph Zitt <jzitt@metatronpress.com>
>To: john schuller <superbadassmofo@hotmail.com>
>CC: zorn-list@lists.xmission.com
>Subject: Re: How Come?
>Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 02:43:20 -0600
>
>On Fri, Mar 22, 2002 at 11:47:29PM -0800, john schuller wrote:
> > Why do you have the
> > inability to answer a yes or no question? The question itself is very
>easy
> > to answer with a yes or no.
>
>John, answer this first with a simple yes or no: Have you stopped
>beating your wife?
>
>--
>| jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
>| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems |
>| http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
>| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
>| Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |
>
<html><DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></html>
_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 10:44:29 +0100
From: "Marcin Gokieli" <marcingokieli@go2.pl>
Subject: Odp: Previte/Frith/Some Questions
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Patrice L. Roussel <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
> You mean SLAY THE SUITORS? That's strange, because it is usually fairly
down
> the list of top Previte records. IMHO, not to the level of excitement of
the
> Gramavision/Enja material.
If slay the suitors is by empty suitsm then its enja counterpart, titled
empty suits, isn't the best thisng he's done neither. I think that the
firsyt two 'weather clear...' cds were his peak. But i'm looking forward tho
hear 'miro'.
Marcin
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 11:23:46 -0000
From: "Iain Kitt" <iain.kitt@virgin.net>
Subject: Joseph and John
Am I the only person finding Joseph and John's exchanges are becoming
increasingly tiresome? Please carry on guys if you want to but can you not
do it off list?
Iain
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 11:29:35 -0000
From: "Iain Kitt" <iain.kitt@virgin.net>
Subject: Recent message
Whoops! It seems my last message requests you to acknowledge receipt. Please
don't bother! My fault - I've just upgraded to IE6 and didn't realsie that
feature was turned on.
Iain
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 20:01:32 -0500
From: Rich Williams <punkjazz@snet.net>
Subject: Re: flag-waving, packaging and martyrdom
>
>Daniel Pearl was murdered by people who define themselves as
>"radical muslims".
I think you have it backwards. We (the west), define them as
radicals, they consider themselves conservatives.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 12:03:04 -0500
From: "Steve Smith" <ssmith36@sprynet.com>
Subject: RE: radical jewish culture and other favorite Z-list topics
According to a Lewis Lapham essay in a recent issue of Harpers, it seems to
me that most public intellectuals now view it as their sole remaining
option/duty to go off and hold tony, erudite gatherings at which to complain
to one another that no one else listens to them anymore.
The average American most likely thinks Charlie Rose is an intellectual.
Certainly Terry Gross, if they get that far towards the left of the dial.
Steve Smith
ssmith36@sprynet.com
NP - Wagner, 'Tannhauser' - Staatskapelle Berlin/Barenboim (Teldec)
- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-zorn-list@lists.xmission.com
[mailto:owner-zorn-list@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Bill Ashline
I think it was Skip who said something about the political task of
intellectuals in the states. It should be born in mind that the role of
public intellectuals in America has declined considerably since the fifties.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 09:27:56 -0800
From: Tosh <tosh@loop.com>
Subject: Dumbing down America
>Sadly this is true! I think it's more of a cultural shift than
>anything else. Also I think the media (whoever they are) sort of
>sells the idea of the stupid consumer - consuming for the sake of
>consuming. Also if one looks at your local bookstore chain - there
>are more books regarding your wealth, your health, your looks, your
>blah blah - very rarely are there books dealing looking outward.
Since the 9/11 incident, there have been a slew of books about other
cultures - but I think the nature of America (I can't speak for other
cultures) is to look inward and reflect on their image.
& seriously I think the best commentary I have read has been on this
list. It maybe impossible to seperate politics & culture from music
listening. Especially on this list which is one big adventure trip
to the unknown ...which is why I love it!
>
>I think it was Skip who said something about the political task of
>intellectuals in the states. It should be born in mind that the role of
>public intellectuals in America has declined considerably since the fifties.
>
>
>-
- --
Tosh Berman
TamTam Books
http://www.tamtambooks.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 13:45:06 -0400
From: mwoodwor <mwoodwor@is2.dal.ca>
Subject: schuller and zitt
Hey Schuller and Zitt (or whatever your names are) PLEASE start sending your
debate privately between yourselves - I'm sick of scrolling down through all
of your emails, it's actually starting to hurt my eyes.
Better yet stop emailing altogether and go and purchase Raymond Scott's
- -Soothing SOunds for Baby (better make it volume 1), and listen to it on
repeat for at least 5 hours, that should take the fight out of ya........
Mike
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 09:59:12 -0800
From: skip Heller <velaires@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: radical jewish culture and other favorite Z-list topics
on 3/23/02 9:03 AM, Steve Smith at ssmith36@sprynet.com wrote:
> According to a Lewis Lapham essay in a recent issue of Harpers, it seems to
> me that most public intellectuals now view it as their sole remaining
> option/duty to go off and hold tony, erudite gatherings at which to complain
> to one another that no one else listens to them anymore.
>
> The average American most likely thinks Charlie Rose is an intellectual.
> Certainly Terry Gross, if they get that far towards the left of the dial.
>
You often hear about the death of intellectualism in America, as if it's a
major event with a tangiable expiration date. As for what I've witnessed,
Lapham is right, although he left out that, as long as you are serving free
white wine, you will likely attract at least two of these beasts.
- -
> From: owner-zorn-list@lists.xmission.com
> [mailto:owner-zorn-list@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Bill Ashline
>
> I think it was Skip who said something about the political task of
> intellectuals in the states. It should be born in mind that the role of
> public intellectuals in America has declined considerably since the fifties.
>
So far as I can make of it, the public task of intellectuals has never been
the most exhaustive. The one truly intellectual guy who ran for president
in the last sixty years (Stevenson) proved to be a great guy but an
ineffectual public figure, compared to, say, Ross Perot -- who by his very
crackpotdom managed to actually raise public awareness of certain kinds of
issues. This, to me, was the sign of an effective public figure -- no way
in life was he gonna win, but he sure brought some shit to the party.
Ocaasionally you need a lunatic in there, shaking things up and rasing
questions. Fr a moment, he was the Jackson Pollack between two Norman
Rockwell's.
Woody Allen, during his mortality soliliquy in HANNAH AND HER SISTERS, said
(paraphrasing like mad), "All these great minds and, in the end, none of
them has any more answers than I do". It's true -- you can read all the
books you want on philsophy, religion etc, but it's all speculation in the
end.
That a lot of educated people who have read the endless speculation does not
make their opinions worthier or more important than those of Americans who
drive busses. There was a time in American history where intellectuals were
celebrated for their intellectualness (espec in the atomic-age 50s, when TV
latched onto these guys as technological purveyors of the better life just
before us in the future). But, in the end, they didn't help Americans to
become better-educated as a nation, nor did most of them manage to make
their thoughts compelling to a larger group of people than the people who
already had those kinds of thoughts (sorry for such an awkward sentence).
That their public profile as a category has declined since the fifties does
not really hurt matters, from what I can see, because their previous public
profile did little to help matters (unless the guy in question actually put
his theories to enough practical use that he invented something that
actually works).
I find it difficult to decry the decline of the public profile of these
people. Call me nuts. I find it sadder -- and more destructive to
America's self-respect -- when athletes behave like huns (on and off the
field/court/ring) and make more money than the dignified pros Ali, Aaron,
and Kareem put together.
skip h
- -
------------------------------
End of Zorn List Digest V3 #847
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