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Zorn List Digest       Thursday, March 21 2002       Volume 03 : Number 834



In this issue:
-
       Re: From "The Onion"
       RE: hip Hop
       Re: hip Hop
       Pierre Henry
       Fwd: Pierre Henry
       Re: From "The Onion"
       the message
       Re: the message
       Re: the message
       are we sure about his "message" ref?
       Re: are we sure about his "message" ref?
       RE: How Come?
       Re: How Come?
       your right im an idiot
       more on the tom tom club
       Re: How Come?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 10:08:29 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: From "The Onion"

On Thu, 21 Mar 2002 01:01:57 +0100  duncan youngerman wrote:
>
> My only problem is that that's the kind of corny joke the Reader's Digest or the
> St Louis Gazette used to make more than 50 years ago about Picasso, Jackson
> Pollock, or John Cage or  any form of modernity (beatniks, etc.).
> Aside from that, laugh on, man!

But the joke is mainly directed to music that has been around for more than
50 years and still puzzle 99.9999% of the people. The joke is not making fun
of music made now by young artists looking for new avenues (which was the
cases that you list above -- like Pollock in the 50s). Basically the joke can
be interpreted as:

    Fifty years ago you [the composers made fun of] came up with music
    so abstract that only a few elite seemed to get it. But you also
    claimed that you were making the music of the future, and that one day
    the masses would finaly see the light [put you political vision here
    to explain how this would happen]. But here we are at the begining of
    the XXI century, and it does not appear that after all these years,
    all these books, thesis, records, etc, that this music has been
    able to convince anybody out of the usual group of specialists and
    unconditional fans of the obscure. Hence we [the people who are
    making fun of these composers] feel that it would not hurt to shake
    a little bit the holy cow.

For people (and they are numerous) who feel that a genre of modern music
promissed much more that it effectively delivered, the joke makes some
sense. I do not agree with the joke (since the composers mentioned are among
my favorites), but I completely understand what motivates making such a
joke. I feel sometimes that the ball in our camp to explain to people why
so much abstract music is worth listening, and why after so many decades it
appears as abstract as it was at its creation (without the freshness
associated to its creation).

    Patrice.

>
> [e-mail] a Θcrit :
>
> >    anything is that is, was, or will ever be printed in the onion article
> > wise is of course a JOKE! - those who are upset by this supposed
> > self-degrading joke of an article are taking themselves way too seriously and
> > have no identifiable sense of humor.
> >
> >     i thought the article was witty and it cleverly poked fun at people - not
> > unlike some on this list - who take all things music too serious. i love john
> > zorn to death, i think he's an absolute genius, but i've encountered some
> > types that would buy an album of him farting and belching profusely and then
> > discuss how well he blended the two styles together and or his brilliantly
> > suttle use of dynamics in the first movement. get the point?
> >
> > someones new enemy - mike
> >
> > -
>
>
> -
>


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 10:09:10 -0800
From: "Benito Vergara" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: hip Hop

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail]
> [mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of skip Heller
> Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2002 9:50 AM

> The dub connection was, at least in the early period, tenuous at best.
> Until "The Message" (1982), most rap records were really about a party
> atmosphere.  Probably the most written-about dub LP in this country up to
> that point was Linton Kwesi Johnson's FORCES OF VICTORY, which,

I can see what you're saying: no reverbs, no echo delays, no dropping in and
out of vocals. But surely Kool Herc, a Jamaican himself, wouldn't have been
able to set up his sound system (okay, not dub) and start toasting over the
breakbeats (okay, not dub either) without knowledge of what King Tubby and
Lee Perry were able to do in the studio.

In any case, I can't see how hip-hop could have emerged without DJs like Big
Youth, I-Roy or Prince Jazzbo -- but again, you're partially right, in the
sense that folks in the U.S. were listening to Bob or Peter or Jimmy
instead...

Later,
Ben

np: nico fidenco, "black emmanuelle's groove"

http://members.tripod.com/~tamad2/
ICQ/AIM: thewilyfilipino / Yahoo!: sunny70


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 10:19:32 -0800
From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: hip Hop

on 3/21/02 10:09 AM, Benito Vergara at [e-mail] wrote:

> I can see what you're saying: no reverbs, no echo delays, no dropping in and
> out of vocals. But surely Kool Herc, a Jamaican himself, wouldn't have been
> able to set up his sound system (okay, not dub) and start toasting over the
> breakbeats (okay, not dub either) without knowledge of what King Tubby and
> Lee Perry were able to do in the studio.
>
> In any case, I can't see how hip-hop could have emerged without DJs like Big
> Youth, I-Roy or Prince Jazzbo -- but again, you're partially right, in the
> sense that folks in the U.S. were listening to Bob or Peter or Jimmy
> instead...

I apologize for leaving out Kool Herc, because he was so important, but I
don't really think he was looking at Big Youth and taking his cues there,
otherwise the actual content of what he did would have been much different.
Surely he would have been more studio-oriented, which he never did become.
Also, if that was the case, wouldn't he have then used reggae-oriented
beats? From what I know of him, it was a lot of "part 2"'s of dance records.

Also, Bob, Jimmy, and Peter made more of a splash in the white world than
the black music community (dancability was an issue, I'm sure) in this
country.

skip h


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 10:32:41 -0800
From: Chris Selvig <[e-mail]>
Subject: Pierre Henry

I recently saw a Pierre Henry CD filed in the Pop section of a Best Buy
store under the name "Henry Pierre."  Tee hee!

Chris Selvig


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 19:28:49 +0100 (CET)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Efr=E9n=20del=20Valle?= <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fwd: Pierre Henry

Not so long ago, Marc Ribot's "Shoe String
Symphonettes" was filed in FNAC under Latin
Music!??!!!

Greetings,

EfrΘn del Valle

>
> I recently saw a Pierre Henry CD filed in the Pop
> section of a Best Buy
> store under the name "Henry Pierre."  Tee hee!
>
> Chris Selvig
>
>
> -
>

_______________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Messenger
Comunicaci≤n instantßnea gratis con tu gente.
http://messenger.yahoo.es

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 13:19:46 -0600
From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: From "The Onion"

On Thu, Mar 21, 2002 at 10:08:29AM -0800, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:

> But the joke is mainly directed to music that has been around for more than
> 50 years and still puzzle 99.9999% of the people. The joke is not making fun
> of music made now by young artists looking for new avenues (which was the
> cases that you list above -- like Pollock in the 50s). Basically the joke can
> be interpreted as:

But note that the music had a direct influence on a lot of music that
people experience everyday, to the extent that they take them for
granted: film and TV soundtracks. Perhaps the difference is that the
music was taken from its "abstract" beginnings and applied to a more
concrete (in the English, not French sense) situation and attached to
a visual correlation.

- --
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 13:36:22 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: the message

is anyone or everyone aware that Grandmaster Flash's "The Message" is
basically a Talking Heads song with different lyrics over it. I mean it's
much more of a rip-off than vanilla ice or mc hammer's sampling
controversies. why was this ok when rap was in it's infancy, but  once it
(rap music) started making money it became an issue. i have never heard
mention anywhere about the fact that that song (the message - renowned as an
important early rap recording, even by me earlier in these posts) was
basically kareoke. am i wrong? if so someone please set me straight. the
talking heads song did come out first right?

a curious grand master flash fan - mike thompson

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 13:32:19 -0600
From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: the message

On Thu, Mar 21, 2002 at 01:36:22PM -0500, [e-mail] wrote:
> is anyone or everyone aware that Grandmaster Flash's "The Message" is
> basically a Talking Heads song with different lyrics over it. I mean it's
> much more of a rip-off than vanilla ice or mc hammer's sampling
> controversies. why was this ok when rap was in it's infancy, but  once it
> (rap music) started making money it became an issue. i have never heard
> mention anywhere about the fact that that song (the message - renowned as an
> important early rap recording, even by me earlier in these posts) was
> basically kareoke. am i wrong? if so someone please set me straight. the
> talking heads song did come out first right?

We repeat, stay away from the brown acid.

Which Talking Heads track do you imagine they copped for "The Message"?

- --
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 10:45:35 -0800
From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: the message

on 3/21/02 10:36 AM, [e-mail] at [e-mail] wrote:

> is anyone or everyone aware that Grandmaster Flash's "The Message" is
> basically a Talking Heads song with different lyrics over it. I mean it's
> much more of a rip-off than vanilla ice or mc hammer's sampling
> controversies. why was this ok when rap was in it's infancy, but  once it
> (rap music) started making money it became an issue. i have never heard
> mention anywhere about the fact that that song (the message - renowned as an
> important early rap recording, even by me earlier in these posts) was
> basically kareoke. am i wrong? if so someone please set me straight. the
> talking heads song did come out first right?
>
> a curious grand master flash fan - mike thompson
>
> -
>
which talking heads song?
sh


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 10:49:52 -0800
From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: are we sure about his "message" ref?

"It's Nasty" was based on "Genius Of Love" (Tom Tom Club was a TH spinoff).

Listening to the track to "The Message" (I am now), it sounds strikingly
close to part of the bass/drum track to Warren Zevon's "Nightime In The
Switching Yard" slowed down.

skip h


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 13:42:41 -0600
From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: are we sure about his "message" ref?

On Thu, Mar 21, 2002 at 10:49:52AM -0800, skip Heller wrote:

> Listening to the track to "The Message" (I am now), it sounds strikingly
> close to part of the bass/drum track to Warren Zevon's "Nightime In The
> Switching Yard" slowed down.

The instrumental track of "The Message" is close to identical to that
of "Cavern" by Liquid Liquid. A google search on "cavern liquid
grandmaster" brings up a lot of interesting links about this.

- --
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 10:59:50 -0800
From: "john schuller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: How Come?

""""In a word: minorities, in that they are series for those who are not
male, Western European, and with other attributes of the Old Boy
Network. And more power to Zorn for doing these series: the more
diverse of offerings, the better a chance I have of being knocked out
by something that would never be had from Sony/Time-Wqwrner/EMI and
the other bean-counter dominated labels.

Saturnally,
- - --
Joe Moudry
Office of Academic Computing & Technology
School of Education, UAB"""

Actually I think it is sad. I really can understand the idea of a Composer
Series, Film Series, Key Series etc. For the reson that those have to do
with MUSIC. I think that it is sad to further racial/religious/gender
division in the 21st Century. I don't see why it should matter if the music
is made by a Jew or an Atheist or a Hindu, if it is good music I would like
to hear it. It should not matter if the music is made by a male or female or
transgendered person. It should not matter if you are Asain, European,
African in descent- if the music is good- bring it on...

And I will go ahead and go on the record about the Japanese series---It is
cool with me. Just because it gives a specific location of the planet.

I don't know. Maybe I am dumb. Maybe people that actually already search out
music on a label like Tzadik still need that shit forced down are throats?




_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 14:02:09 -0600
From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: How Come?

On Thu, Mar 21, 2002 at 10:59:50AM -0800, john schuller wrote:

> Actually I think it is sad. I really can understand the idea of a Composer
> Series, Film Series, Key Series etc. For the reson that those have to do
> with MUSIC. I think that it is sad to further racial/religious/gender
> division in the 21st Century. I don't see why it should matter if the music
> is made by a Jew or an Atheist or a Hindu, if it is good music I would like
> to hear it. It should not matter if the music is made by a male or female or
> transgendered person. It should not matter if you are Asain, European,
> African in descent- if the music is good- bring it on...

As a Jew, I find Jewish music interesting. I suspect that Zorn does, too.
I would not be likely to seek out Radical Buddhist Culture, but it wouldn't
bother me if someone would want to start such a label.

It is often difficult for people who are not themselves members of a
group to understand the interest by members of that group in a
collective identity. It is also often true that members of the group
who have assimilated and wish to downplay that group identity's importance
for others to resent instances of representation of that collective
identity. Is either of these the case here?

> And I will go ahead and go on the record about the Japanese series---It is
> cool with me. Just because it gives a specific location of the planet.

So why the prejudice in favor of location-based organization? Is that in
any sense more interesting or worthwhile than music by members of a
culture who happen to be geographically dispersed? If so, why?

- --
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 14:15:56 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: your right im an idiot

i meant the tom tom club. i am an idiot.

truth is i heard it in a class i'm in at school. we where doing critical
listening in the studio for production techniques and a student brought in th
tom tom club (which i, having just woken up, mistakingly put on here as the
talking heads). anyways, i was taken back by the fact it was identical to the
message. and frankly i was a bit dissapointed. anyways, all apologies for the
mix up. can you ever trust anything i say again? i doubt it.

self-loathing and sorry - mike

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 14:31:05 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: more on the tom tom club

ok - the tom tom club song is called "genuis of love" and it's clearly what
grand master used as a sample or whatever. no NOT the talking heads, though
if you do a search on "genius of love" on morpheus it comes up as a talking
heads song as well as the tom tom club. wierd huh? guess i am not the only
one who has mistaken this for a talking heads song.

ps. ice cube also used the music from the message on "check yo self (remix)"

pehaps i'll shut the hell up from now on - mike

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 11:33:09 -0800
From: "john schuller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: How Come?

>
>As a Jew, I find Jewish music interesting. I suspect that Zorn does, too.
>I would not be likely to seek out Radical Buddhist Culture, but it wouldn't
>bother me if someone would want to start such a label.
>
>It is often difficult for people who are not themselves members of a
>group to understand the interest by members of that group in a
>collective identity. It is also often true that members of the group
>who have assimilated and wish to downplay that group identity's importance
>for others to resent instances of representation of that collective
>identity. Is either of these the case here?


Actually I am part of a group. Everyone is. But I truly think that in the
age of "Political Correctness" that we really need to stop exploiting or
segregating people further based upon their ethnicity/ gender. (I now take
back the religion part...it just occured to me since a life style choice -
not something you are born as) It really doen not matter to me if the person
I am listening to is whatever. But to set it aside as something seperate of
music - "hey, here is some music made by a woman! Buy it because of that!" I
think it is wrong. I think in this day and age you should be able to make
music, sell music whatever based upon the music. Otherwise it is just as sad
as "Buy this Jennifer Lopez album! She is HOT!". A bunch of Minstrel show
shit.
>
> > And I will go ahead and go on the record about the Japanese series---It
>is
> > cool with me. Just because it gives a specific location of the planet.
>
>So why the prejudice in favor of location-based organization? Is that in
>any sense more interesting or worthwhile than music by members of a
>culture who happen to be geographically dispersed? If so, why?

Location is just location.

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V3 #834
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