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Zorn List Digest       Thursday, March 21 2002       Volume 03 : Number 832



In this issue:
-
       Re: ornette reissues on blue note and Japanese Independent Music--book
       dr. octagon.
       Re: The origins of musique concrete
       Re: Hip Hop
       kato hideki+nuno rebelo + marco F. in UK
       Fwd: Re: Hip Hop
       Sean Lennon/Cibo Matto
       Re: Sean Lennon/Cibo Matto
       re: straight outta...
       Re: explanation for a child
       Re: explanation for a child
       Re: hip Hop
       Fwd: How Come?
       Re: Fwd: How Come?
       Dave Douglas with strings
       Fwd: Dave Douglas with strings
       Curlew = the Paradox and Arcada trios.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 21:35:03 -0600
From: "Sanchez" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: ornette reissues on blue note and Japanese Independent Music--book

From: "William York" <[e-mail]>

> has anyone heard the new/recent RVG-series reissues of the ornette trio's
> golden circle discs on blue note? if so, any commentary on the bonus
> material, improvement in sound quality, etc.?
>
Just thought I'd de-lurk to offer my opinion on two things. First, the
Ornette re-issues. The re-mastering on both discs is a revelation - leaves
the old CDs sounding flat and lifeless. There are five unissued takes and
one new piece appended to the discs so that each one is approx. 35 min.
longer than the previous issue. With new liner notes from John Litweiler and
a $9.99 price, I'd say they're well worth picking up.

..and while I'm here: as for the shortcomings of the Japanese Independent
Music book, while the essays and interviews are good - and the CD is great -
the discographies leave a lot to be desired. Labels get mixed up with
distributors quite a bit (don't think the Boredoms have any releases on
Black Saint as listed in their discog - not that that wouldn't be a good
idea), accuracy of cat. #'s is hit-and-miss, and most of the discographies
have the feel of being moused up rather than researched. And personally, I'm
not completely on board with the editorial stance. I think the entry for
Cornelius goes something like: "Cornelius sucks. Now here's a discography of
50+ listings from his website." But, again, overall the book is worth the
scratch, just not worth your best money, like the Ornette re-issues.

- -Sanchez

nw: Profondo Rosso (1975) d. Argento


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 01:33:14 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: dr. octagon.

In a message dated 03.20.02 15.48.37, [e-mail] writes:

>Dr. Octagon (Kool Keith)

will someone tell me more about this dr. octagon album?  i've read maybe
twenty reviews of this album and everyone seems to widely respect / like /
dig / whatever it, but i know nothing about it...

love,
  k8.




- ---
[.n0thing.is.what.is.sAid.]
k a t e  p e t e r s o n
c o m p o s e r / p e r f o r m e r

http://www.geocities.com/uforbk8/kate.html
http://www.icefoundation.org (roundtable)

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 08:33:26 +0100
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: The origins of musique concrete

> Musique Concrete was created by Pierre Schaeffer in the late forties (quickly
> joined by Pierre Henry with whom he made the masterpiece of the genre:
> SYMPHONIE POUR UN HOMME SEUL). The idea was to make music with sounds
> usually not considered as musical. Basically sounds made by objects associated
> to all human activities. It could the noise of a squeaky door, the noises from
> steam machines, etc. Schaeffer gathered all the theoretical foundations of his
> baby in the awesome T.O.M. (TRAITE DES OBJETS MUSICAUX). In its purest form,
> the music was not supposed to use sounds prooduced by electronic equipements,
> although these were heavily used for processing (including the weird machine
> to slow/speed sounds without changing the pitches!). You also need to know that
> Schaeffer was quite desilusioned with the whole idea by the end of his life.
> In the early fifties, every modern European composers had created his piece
> of music concrete. Very few are unfortunately available (Boulez, for example,
> erased it from his catalog).

Pierre Schaeffer is always mentioned as the one who first came up with the idea
of musique concrete, but I believe the origin of the genre can be traced at least
as far back as Walter Rutman, who used the sound-track of pieces of celluloid
to record "non-musical sounds" as far back as 1928. There is a 3" CD in Metamkine's
"Cinema d'oreil" series called "Weekend" documenting this.








- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 08:45:47
From: "William York" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Hip Hop

>death metal didn't start with morbid angel nor suffocation. i am >sorry. i
>know you didn't have time to explain yourself, but i just >couldn't let
>anyone say that morbid angel originated anything as >important as this.

I'm sorry if there was a misunderstanding, but if you reread what I wrote
you will see that I didn't claim that they originated the genre. I was
merely pointing them out as two of the better examples of death metal that,
depending on how you look at it, could be viewed as a type of American
(hence no mention of ND) avant-garde music from that era. (No hard feelings,
of course ...)

And yes I have the early Napalm Death stuff ... (My favorite from that era
is the Peel Sessions stuff, though, not the studio recs.) I agree, the pure
energy/sound aspect of the ND stuff is amazing. I was mentioning Suffocation
and MA more based on how out the songwriting was.

Take care,

WY

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- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 09:15:11 +0000
From: "Ricardo Jorge" <[e-mail]>
Subject: kato hideki+nuno rebelo + marco F. in UK

Nuno Rebelo + Kato Hideki + Marco Franco
U.K. Tour
May / June 2002
After the gig at Atlantic Waves / London Jazz Festival, the trio was invited
by Music Stuff - Tour production for a tour of about 10 concerts in England.
More info about the venues and dates as soon as it's set.
NR - guitar, KH - bass, MF - drums.





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- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 10:21:01 +0100 (CET)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Efr=E9n=20del=20Valle?= <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fwd: Re: Hip Hop

Mike wrote:

anyone who doesn't own
> ND's first two albums
> (scum, and from enslavement to obliteration) they
> are still to this day the
> most extreme death metal recordings ever made based
> on pure raw energy.
> nothing has come close to capturing the intensity
> and extremity before or
> since).

Carcass' first album DID capture "intensity and
extremity" at that level, IMHO. It's one of the most
brutal records I've ever heard. Unfortunately, they
seem to have softened in subsequent releases.

Best,

EfrΘn del Valle
n.p: Bob Dylan "Blonde on Blonde"

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- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 10:43:19 +0100 (CET)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Efr=E9n=20del=20Valle?= <[e-mail]>
Subject: Sean Lennon/Cibo Matto

Hi,

I'd like to know your thoughts on Sean Lennon's "Into
the Sun" and Cibo Matto's "Viva La Woman". From the
former I've read anything but good reviews here but
I'm still curious.
Also, did anyone have a chance to hear the Yuka
Honda's release on Tzadik?

I'm always asking...

Thanks in advance.

Best,

EfrΘn del Valle

_______________________________________________________________
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- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 10:10:54 +0000
From: "Arthur Gadney" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Sean Lennon/Cibo Matto

Hello.

>I'd like to know your thoughts on Sean Lennon's "Into
>the Sun"

Well, it's kind of a pop thing... Nothing too special. I wouldn't pay more
than $5 for it;

>and Cibo Matto's "Viva La Woman".

This I really love. My first impresion was rather bad, actually, but now I
think it's one of the best pop albums of the last ten years. Cute and
creative. (Note: avoid their next album "Stereotype A". It's very bad,
except for one song called "Spoon" which is perfect and features Dave
Douglas, Marc Ribot and all the others...)

Buy buy.

NP: Can: "Tago Mago"
NR: http://www.veteransforpeace.com/

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- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 05:17:42 -0500 (EST)
From: Taylor McLaren <[e-mail]>
Subject: re: straight outta...

skip heller wrote:
> The often wished-for Next Beatles turned out to be Run DMC.
> Not only did their music connect big, but anything advertised
> at young people from 1987 on had some sort of hip-hop quotient
> attatched to it.  And the musical/sonic intensity of it --
> and the aggression of its message -- only got nastier.  yeah,
> you had some rap lite, but groups like PE were outselling it
> over time.
I know this going right off on a tangent now, since the original
question was about the influences behind the early stuff (I think),
but I think it's funny that (1) Run-DMC had to cover an Aerosmith
song before commercial radio would even consider playing this weirdo
brand of music (remember, this was around the same time that MTV
wouldn't play Michael Jackson's videos because he was black... er...
um... because of their "objectionable content", yeah, that's
right...), and (2) most of the "rap lite" stuff in today's market is
easily outselling PE and all of the classics by virtue of its
violent, nasty appeal.
  A quick look at the RIAA site and its gold/platinum certification
lists shows that PE hasn't exactly torn up the charts since
"Apocalypse '91", which went platinum in the year of its release.
("Fear of a Black Planet" did the same sort of business; "Nation of
Millions" took the better part of a year to go platinum.) Sure,
"Muse-Sick-n-Hour-Mess-Age" has gone gold, but I don't even see
"There's a Poison Goin' On" listed... who knows if this has anything
to do with how it was released or not, but still... Meanwhile,
offerings from the likes of Busta Rhymes, Maxwell, and even $@&#ing
Jennifer Lopez have gone platinum or multi-platinum in the space of a
couple of months, judging from recent entries to the bestsellers
lists. In terms of their influence on anything contemporary, sure, PE
are right near the top of the list, but in terms of actual sales...
well, you're looking at a situation that a major label bean counter
would consider only somewhat less dire than the one facing somebody
like Marc Ribot or Don Byron, ie. you're into bloodletting territory
these days.
  (Point of interest: De La Soul have only gone platinum once, with
"3 Feet High and Rising", and "Straight Outta Compton" was actually
certified multi-platinum in '92... interesting how the violent stuff
does really well, isn't it? Even now, I'm amazed that people once
considered Chuck D to be a violent person and not just incredibly
pissed off with the state of the universe.)

I'm probably going to look back on this when it shows up in the
digest in a few hours' time and think that I'm babbling on to no real
effect, so I'll shut up now.

- -me



______________________________________________________________________
File your taxes online! http://taxes.yahoo.ca

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 07:18:05 -0500
From: "Caleb T. Deupree" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: explanation for a child

At 09:26 AM 3/20/02 -0800, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:
>
>The idea of musique concrete, as a separate genre, did not last long since
>after the creation of electronic music in 1953 in Koln by Herbert Heimer,
both
>genres quickly fused to become electroacoustic music (or acousmatic, if you
>follow the French school).

Although this statement is the conventional wisdom, the genre is alive and
well.  There are quite a few new cds that claim very legitimately to be
musique concrete, including (among others) most of the Metamkine Cinema
pour l'oreille and the empreintes digitales label in Canada.  Ralf Wehowsky
and Kevin Drumm's recent release says 'musique concrete realized in Chicago
and Mainz' in great big letters on the cover.
- --

Caleb Deupree
[e-mail]

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 09:17:35 -0500
From: Mike Chamberlain <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: explanation for a child

on 3/21/02 7:18 AM, Caleb T. Deupree at [e-mail] wrote:

> At 09:26 AM 3/20/02 -0800, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:
>>
>> The idea of musique concrete, as a separate genre, did not last long since
>> after the creation of electronic music in 1953 in Koln by Herbert Heimer,
> both
>> genres quickly fused to become electroacoustic music (or acousmatic, if you
>> follow the French school).
>
> Although this statement is the conventional wisdom, the genre is alive and
> well.  There are quite a few new cds that claim very legitimately to be
> musique concrete, including (among others) most of the Metamkine Cinema
> pour l'oreille and the empreintes digitales label in Canada.

As for the empreintes digitales material, while musique concrete is
definitely a significant part of many recordings, I think it would more
properly be labeled electroacoustic according to the definition above.
Indeed, the press material and liner notes generally refer to the music as
electroacoustic, FWIW.  I'm not that big on labels, I just found your point
interesting in light of the way that empreintes digitales produces their
albums.  The packaging is excellent, if ultimately a bit fragile.

- --Mike


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 08:25:06 -0600 (CST)
From: James Miller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: hip Hop

Zorn people:

First, thanks for the interesting responses to my questions about hip hop.
It's interesting that the discussion has focused on hip hop as something
"totally new" or "revolutionary." While I don't necessarily disagree with
that argument, my original question had more to do with locating links,
secret histories, trajectories of influence. I was thinking of things like
the following (which may or may not be accurate, that's why I asked):

Hip hop's links to disco, dance culture of the 70s-- club culture, etc.
The Last Poets
Reggae, dub and stdio technology (Big Youth, etc)
Amiri Baraka, Black Arts, etc
Oneness of Juju, other 60s-70s collectives (if they exist?)
obviously, funk and soul culture

That sort of thing. Are these genuine links, and has anyone researched
them? I don't want to make claims for the music yet, I just want to grasp
how it fits into the cultural/historical matrix, so to speak.

Thanks again,

Andy


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 09:02:52 -0600
From: Moudry <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fwd: How Come?

>X-Originating-IP: [67.40.17.209]
>From: "john schuller" <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: How Come?
>Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 17:43:31 -0800
>X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Mar 2002 01:43:31.0403 (UTC)
>FILETIME=[A3E5E1B0:01C1CFB0]
>Sender: [e-mail]
>Status:
>
>How come Zorn has categories in the Tzadik catalog that are
>race/religion/gender based? I can understand the Composer
>series/Film Series/Key Series...but what gives with the
>Jewish/Woman/Asian series?
>
>Curious,
>John Schuller
><snip!>

In a word: minorities, in that they are series for those who are not
male, Western European, and with other attributes of the Old Boy
Network. And more power to Zorn for doing these series: the more
diverse of offerings, the better a chance I have of being knocked out
by something that would never be had from Sony/Time-Wqwrner/EMI and
the other bean-counter dominated labels.

Saturnally,
- --
Joe Moudry
Office of Academic Computing & Technology
School of Education, UAB

Master of Saturn Web (Sun Ra, the Arkestra & Free Jazz);
<http://www.dpo.uab.edu/~moudry>
Producer/Host of Classic Jazz & Creative Improv on Alabama Public Radio

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 15:23:23 +0000
From: "Arthur Gadney" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Fwd: How Come?

Hello.

>>How come Zorn has categories in the Tzadik catalog that are
>>race/religion/gender based?

Why not??

>>I can understand the Composer
>>series/Film Series/Key Series...but what gives with the
>>Jewish/Woman/Asian series?

Yes, composers are fine, but women, jews and asians have no place in music
;-)

I must say I don't care much for Zorn labelling of the stuff; I just buy
whatever I like and that's it. I would, however, like to see A LOT more
releases in the women's series!

Cheers,

NP: Massacre: "Meltdown"
NR: "The Trial Of Henry Kissinger" by Christopher Hitchens

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 15:56:46 +0000
From: "Arthur Gadney" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Dave Douglas with strings

"Parallel Worlds" or "Five"????

Thanks.



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- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 17:10:58 +0100 (CET)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Efr=E9n=20del=20Valle?= <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fwd: Dave Douglas with strings

"Parallel Worlds" or "Five"????
>
> Thanks.

"Five"!!!!!

The most important Spanish jazz magazine even included
it among the best 10 or 20 records of the last decade-
this is obviously not a guarantee but somehow shows
how welcome it was when released. I like it quite a
lot, much more than "Parallel Words". I have no
specific reasons to recommend it to you. Just a good
album with great performers and fine compositions
(which is a lot, isn't it?).

Best,

EfrΘn del Valle

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 16:17:51 +0000
From: "Arthur Gadney" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Curlew = the Paradox and Arcada trios.

Hello again guys.

1) How many Arcada String Trio CDs are there? As of right now, I can only
manage to track down the "Live In Europe" CD, but it's an import so rather
expensive. Is it worth it??

2) A also want to pick up a Curlew disc, and was thinking of either "A
Beautiful Western Saddle" or "Bee", since I like Tom Cora. I understand that
"A Beautiful..." is with vocals, so I think I should probably go for "Bee",
since vocals rarely cut it in there parts. Seems like a good idea?

Any recommendations for the Paradox Trio? I hear they are kind of related to
Pachora, which I really like.

Thanx.











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------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V3 #832
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