ftp.xmission.com/2014.06.ftp.xmission.com.tar/ftp.xmission.com/pub/lists/zorn-list/archive/v03.n831

Internet Message Format | 2002-03-20 | 21KB

From: [e-mail] (Zorn List Digest)
To: [e-mail]
Subject: Zorn List Digest V3 #831
Reply-To: zorn-list
Sender: [e-mail]
Errors-To: [e-mail]
Precedence: bulk


Zorn List Digest       Wednesday, March 20 2002       Volume 03 : Number 831



In this issue:
-
       Re: Hip Hop
       Re: straight outta ...
       Re: straight outta ...
       Re: straight outta ...
       Re: straight outta ...
       hip hop
       Re: straight outta ...
       Re: hip hop
       Re: hip hop
       Re: explanation for a child
       Re: Re: Fwd: Re: explanation for a child
       Re: Fwd: Re: explanation for a child
       Re: Laswell and The Dub
       Re: Fwd: Re: explanation for a child
       Re: From "The Onion"
       Re: Hip Hop
       Re: Hip Hop
       Re: Hip Hop
       Re: sonny clark
       thanks for the book recommendations

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 14:48:11 -0600
From: "Ben Axelrad" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Hip Hop

These stand the test of time:

Standard Stuff:
Ultramagnetic MCs -- Critical Beatdown, The Four Horseman
Dr. Octagon (Kool Keith)
Boogie Down Productions -- Criminal Minded
Souls of Mischief -- 93 til Infinity
Jungle Brothers -- Straight Out the Jungle
De La Soul -- De La Soul Is Dead
Common (Sense) -- Resurrection
Outkast -- ATLiens, Aquemini (newer ones are good but not as good as
everyone says)
Goodie Mob -- (first one)


Chicago:
E.C. -- Illa LP
Molemen compilations (any one is good)
Rhymefest -- presents Raw Dawg

West Coast:
Aceyalone -- anything!
Freestyle Fellowship -- Innercity Griots
Project Blowed (v/a)
Volume 10 -- HipHopera


Political Stuff:
Brand Nubian -- (the first one)
X-Clan -- (the first one -- isn't Verbal Milk the best rap track ever?)
Public Enemy -- Fear of a Black Planet (was the "Still they got me like
Jesus" line from "Welcome to the Terrordome" anti-Semitic?)
The Coup -- Genocide & Juice

Compilations:
Stretch Armstrong/Bobbito freestyles -- the one with Mad Skillz/Lonnie B, IG
Off & Hazardous, etc
Soundbombing

Websites:
www.hiphopsite.com
www.sandbox.com

_________________________________________________________________
Join the worldÆs largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
http://www.hotmail.com


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 12:50:31 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: straight outta ...

On Wed, 20 Mar 2002 15:30:04 -0600  Joseph Zitt wrote:
>
> On Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 03:12:56PM -0500, [e-mail] wrote:
> > WOW - to mention Harry Partch in order to describe the creativity of Hip Hop?
> > bold move my friend. that's a little hard to comprehend. hip hop pioneers
> > didn't build their own freaking instrument and devise a entirely new 48 tone
> > scale to free themselves from all confines of traditional western music. no
> > no no, rather they started out by rhyming over a 4/4 drum beat. not unlike
> > school girls using a jump rope as their metronome to sing - uhh RHYMES over.
>
> Well, while I'm not as sure as Skip that the stuff was utterly
> unprecedented, they did bring in the use of electronics, turntables,

Joseph, why being so squeamish? Didn't John Cage started it all (hip hop)
with CARTRIDGE MUSIC?

    Patrice.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 12:59:25 -0800
From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: straight outta ...

on 3/20/02 12:12 PM, [e-mail] at [e-mail] wrote:

> WOW - to mention Harry Partch in order to describe the creativity of Hip Hop?
> bold move my friend. that's a little hard to comprehend. hip hop pioneers
> didn't build their own freaking instrument and devise a entirely new 48 tone
> scale to free themselves from all confines of traditional western music. no
> no no, rather they started out by rhyming over a 4/4 drum beat. not unlike
> school girls using a jump rope as their metronome to sing - uhh RHYMES over.
>
> I like hip hop, as you can tell from previous posts, but to say they were as
> creative as harry partch is too much.
>
> -mike with his mind blown
>
> -
>
Partch -- devised new instruments and notation, techniques and brought
previously unused structures to the music.

Hip-hop guys -- devised new instruments, techniques, and brought previously
unused structures to the music.

The only thing missing for me fr the hip-hop side is the notation.  As for
the 4/4-ness of it, the way those beats got messed around -- both texturally
and in terms of actually subdivision of the beats themselves -- was
something we hadn;t heard before.  As Mr Zitt pointed out, Schoenberg
mentioned that there was still a lot of music left to be written in C ("In
C" comes to mind).  4/4 was and is far from over, and the practice of
subdividing it texturally as much as rhythmically (look at a Tower Of Power
horn chart and you'll notice that 4/4 is not all that limited) is an amazing
step.

As for the confines of western music, those seem largely to be harmony and
melody, and hip-hop certainly treats those elements as options, not law.
Partch was definitely seeing himself as much in line with Eastern theatrical
presentation at least as he was with American(/Western).  I think it's
pretty easy to say the same thing about the general relationship of rappers
to the griot.

Honestly, I don't see that much difference.  Partch defintely had his ideas
about low art/high art, and I think that hip-hop actually managed to carry
them out.  Partch used bottles, lightbulbs, and whatever other consumer
goods he could make something out of.  The deejay's are using old records.
I don't see a big split here, except in how and where people are taught
about it.

skip h


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 13:01:58 -0800
From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: straight outta ...

on 3/20/02 12:50 PM, Patrice L. Roussel at [e-mail] wrote:

>
> Joseph, why being so squeamish? Didn't John Cage started it all (hip hop)
> with CARTRIDGE MUSIC?
>
> Patrice.

That's exactly the type of music that sounds to many of us like a recording
of an electric shaver being played as someone tunes in a broken AM radio.
Also, do you think Dr Dre is taking his cues from Cage? Honestly?

skip h


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 13:00:25 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: straight outta ...

On Wed, 20 Mar 2002 13:01:58 -0800  skip Heller wrote:
>
> on 3/20/02 12:50 PM, Patrice L. Roussel at [e-mail] wrote:
>
> >
> > Joseph, why being so squeamish? Didn't John Cage started it all (hip hop)
> > with CARTRIDGE MUSIC?
> >
> > Patrice.
>
> That's exactly the type of music that sounds to many of us like a recording
> of an electric shaver being played as someone tunes in a broken AM radio.
> Also, do you think Dr Dre is taking his cues from Cage? Honestly?

I was joking since it is usually impossible to talk about something new in
music without Joseph reminding you than Cage did it first :-).

    Patrice.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 16:01:39 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: hip hop

I doubt that Dr. Dre even knows who John Cage is.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 13:06:06 -0800
From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: straight outta ...


>It is usually impossible to talk about something new in
> music without Joseph reminding you than Cage did it first :-).
>
> Patrice.

My gaff.  It's often hard to tell what is or isn't literal when people are
citing historical precedent.

sh


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 13:06:44 -0800
From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: hip hop

on 3/20/02 1:01 PM, [e-mail] at [e-mail]
wrote:

> I doubt that Dr. Dre even knows who John Cage is.
>
> -
>
... and somehow I would never count this against him.

skip h


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 13:04:33 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: hip hop

On Wed, 20 Mar 2002 16:01:39 EST  [e-mail] wrote:
>
> I doubt that Dr. Dre even knows who John Cage is.

And he can make music? That's really astonishing. Surely another proof (if
needed) of a large scale conspiracy to keep the masses in total ignorance to
better manipulate them :-).

    Patrice.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 17:00:28 -0500
From: David Keffer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: explanation for a child

>>On Wed, 20 Mar 2002 17:07:08 +0000 (WET)  Ricardo Reis wrote:
>>     can someone explain me the concept behind "music concrete"?

>From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
>Musique Concrete was created by Pierre Schaeffer in the late forties ...

This sort of concise and insightful description is precisely the reason I
remain a member of the list.  Thanks.

David K.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 23:05:38 +0000
From: "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Re: Fwd: Re: explanation for a child

>From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: explanation for a child
>
>On Wed, 20 Mar 2002 18:55:24 +0100 (CET)
>=?iso-8859-1?q?Efr=E9n=20del=20Valle?= wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > I could be wrong but I think Pierre Henry's "Messe
> > Pour le Temps Present" is still available and it's a
>
>In fact a lot is available. A fairly complete set of Pierre Schaeffer and
>numerous boxes for Pierre Henry (at least three, if I remember well).
>

There's a fourth mix box that just became available.  I've been collecting
them and they have good liner notes in French about musique concrete.
As usual, thanks for the discographies, Patrice.

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 15:13:00 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: explanation for a child

On Wed, 20 Mar 2002 23:05:38 +0000  "Bill Ashline" wrote:
>
> There's a fourth mix box that just became available.  I've been collecting
> them and they have good liner notes in French about musique concrete.

That's a great news! I dream that the following piece is part of it:

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*** - MISE EN MUSIQUE DU CORTICALART DE ROGER LAFOSSE: Pierre Henry

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Could it be the resdiscovery of Henry by techno artists the reason why Philips
decided to reissue most of Henry's production?

    Patrice.



- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 23:28:05 +0000
From: "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Laswell and The Dub

>From: "Arthur Gadney" <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Laswell and The Dub
>
>Hello!
>
>Can somebody tell me when Bill Laswell recorded his first dub piece??
>Sometime late 80s, is that right? Discovering dub must have been quite a
>big
>turn around for him, so I'm just curious when he really became a born again
>dubster.
>

Probably in the studio working with Sly and Robbie in the late eighties and
with King Yellowman.  The 1988 release of Blind Idiot God's Undertow on
Enemy, which he produced, perhaps encouraged the move away from a more
funk-based aesthetic into dub.  But I don't think the decision to create a
new hybrid genre really happened until about 92 or 93.

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 23:48:06 +0000
From: "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: explanation for a child

>From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
>To: "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>
>CC: [e-mail], [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: explanation for a child
>Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 15:13:00 -0800
>
>On Wed, 20 Mar 2002 23:05:38 +0000  "Bill Ashline" wrote:
> >
> > There's a fourth mix box that just became available.  I've been
>collecting
> > them and they have good liner notes in French about musique concrete.
>
>That's a great news! I dream that the following piece is part of it:
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>*** - MISE EN MUSIQUE DU CORTICALART DE ROGER LAFOSSE: Pierre Henry
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Could it be the resdiscovery of Henry by techno artists the reason why
>Philips
>decided to reissue most of Henry's production?
>
>    Patrice.


I'm not sure what's on the new Mix 4 box as I deleted the original email I
got on it.  But I've been buying these box sets from David Hodgson in New
Mexico and he can probably give you the details again.  You can write him at
[e-mail]

I'm sure that techno's rediscovery had much to do these reissues.

NP:  An unbelievable fog as the Gobi Desert blows it's annual quota of dust
over the atmosphere of Seoul.  Must be seen to be believed.


_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 01:01:57 +0100
From: duncan youngerman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: From "The Onion"

My only problem is that that's the kind of corny joke the Reader's Digest or=
 the
St Louis Gazette used to make more than 50 years ago about Picasso, Jackson
Pollock, or John Cage or  any form of modernity (beatniks, etc=2E)=2E
Aside from that, laugh on, man!
D=2E

RainDog138@aol=2Ecom a =E9crit :

>    anything is that is, was, or will ever be printed in the onion article
> wise is of course a JOKE! - those who are upset by this supposed
> self-degrading joke of an article are taking themselves way too seriously =
and
> have no identifiable sense of humor=2E
>
>     i thought the article was witty and it cleverly poked fun at people - =
not
> unlike some on this list - who take all things music too serious=2E i love=
 john
> zorn to death, i think he's an absolute genius, but i've encountered some
> types that would buy an album of him farting and belching profusely and th=
en
> discuss how well he blended the two styles together and or his brilliantly
> suttle use of dynamics in the first movement=2E get the point?
>
> someones new enemy - mike
>
> -


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 00:55:40
From: "William York" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Hip Hop

>For what it's worth, I think what De La Soul, PE, and NWA sprang on us >in
>the mid/late 80s was the true avant-garde American music, more than >any
>other.

You could make a similar point about death metal in this same period and
slightly after (late 80s/early 90s) -- e.g., Suffocation, Morbid Angel.
(Although I hate to say anything is the "true" anything.) (Un)fortunately, I
don't have time to go into a long essay or point by point analysis at the
moment...

Cheers,

WY




_________________________________________________________________
Join the worldÆs largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
http://www.hotmail.com


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 20:17:11 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Hip Hop

In a message dated 3/20/02 2:27:41 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< this list has to start with Troublefunk.  I don't really remember what's
out
 there by them, but i think there was a live album that was VERY good.  their
 studio stuff was not quite as hot, but they were a fun band.   i think there
 was a troublefunk album that was another casualty of the Infinite Zero label
 closure. >>

Oh yeah!  Their song "Let's Get Small" was a staple on my local college radio
station when it was released in the mid-80's.

- --
=dg=

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 20:29:02 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Hip Hop

death metal didn't start with morbid angel nor suffocation. i am sorry. i
know you didn't have time to explain yourself, but i just couldn't let anyone
say that morbid angel originated anything as important as this.

i would say it's originators were napalm death (just ask zorn himself),
death, macabre, and a few others. certainly not the new york or miami based
stuff that came years after. look into the history of napalm death (there are
various sites for this) and you'll find the almost accidental genesis of
death metal and grindcore. anyone who doesn't own ND's first two albums
(scum, and from enslavement to obliteration) they are still to this day the
most extreme death metal recordings ever made based on pure raw energy.
nothing has come close to capturing the intensity and extremity before or
since). they are for lack of a better word amazing. (for a better
understanding of how they got there, seek out the very rare hatred surge
demos that came out just prior to scum)

any other comments on death metal are certainly welcome.

- -mike

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 17:34:26 -0800
From: florid oratory <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: sonny clark

in addition to the aforementioned Cool Struttin', also on Blue Note are
Leapin' and Lopin' and Sonny's Crib. great originals on both albums, the
former's personnel includes Charlie Rouse and Billy Higgins, the latter has
Coltrane.

and as a sideman with Jackie McLean: Jackie's Bag and Tippin' the Scales
as a sideman with Dexter Gordon: Go and A Swingin' Affair.

all of the above on Blue Note

- --GC


>
> From: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: hiphop/sonny clark
>

>
> Can anyone recommend a good starting place for Sonny Clark (other than the
> Horvitz tribute)?
>
> Thanks,
> Tom


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 18:18:45 -0800
From: "Benito Vergara" <[e-mail]>
Subject: thanks for the book recommendations

Just wanted to thank everyone (Bob Sweet, Jason Bivins, Skip Heller, Kevin
Fellezs and Bill Ashline, among others) for your recommendations.

After a cursory examination of some of the books (our library isn't very
good, and neither is the bookstore), I decided to settle on Sarah Thornton's
"Club Cultures: Music, Media and Subcultural Capital," mainly because of her
discussion of authenticity (something I like) and Bourdieu (someone I really
like, may he rest in peace). Plus, I think the kids would get into it more.
=)

A close runner-up was Tricia Rose's "Black Noise: Rap Music and Black
Culture in Contemporary America," which looked awfully promising, and which
I still might switch for the main text at the last moment. (The chapter on
sampling looks fantastic, for one.)

Tia DeNora's "Music in Everyday Life" and Robert Walser's "Running with the
Devil" both looked totally up my alley (especially the former), but read too
jargony (or too technical) for the students. Plus I have "Microphone Fiends"
and "Performing Rites" on its way to me, but the textbook deadlines are
coming soon. It doesn't matter -- in any case, I own them all now. =)

Thanks again,
Ben

- ----------------------------
Benito M. Vergara, Jr.
Assistant Professor
Department of Asian American Studies /
   Department of Anthropology
San Francisco State University


- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V3 #831
*******************************


 To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to
       "[e-mail]"
 with
       "unsubscribe zorn-list-digest"
 in the body of the message.

 For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send
 "help" to the same address.  Do not use quotes in your message.

 A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
 subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "zorn-list-digest"
 in the commands above with "zorn-list".

 Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from ftp.xmission.com, in
 pub/lists/zorn-list/archive.  These are organized by date.

 Problems? Email the list owner at [e-mail]