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From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest)
To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Zorn List Digest V3 #830
Reply-To: zorn-list
Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Precedence: bulk
Zorn List Digest Wednesday, March 20 2002 Volume 03 : Number 830
In this issue:
-
Re: Hip Hop
Re: explanation for a child
Re: From "The Onion"
Re: fire music
ETHIOPIQUES
straight outta ...
RE: Hip Hop
Re: straight outta ...
a hip hop ammendment
Re: straight outta ...
Re: explanation for a child
Re: straight outta ...
Re: explanation for a child
Re: explanation for a child
Re: straight outta ...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 10:31:23 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Subject: Re: Hip Hop
On Wed, 20 Mar 2002 13:42:25 -0500 "josephneff" wrote:
>
> Hello,
> ...now, as far as the old, old school stuff goes, I seem to remember
> that Rhino assembled something like a 4 CD comp. series of the early stuff
> (back when it was called rap). I don't own it, but a friend used to spin it
> at parties, and it was always fun. I need to hunt these down....
>
> Yeah, PE's "It Takes a Nation..." is classic, but don't sleep on the first
> one "Yo, Bum Rush The Show". It's a great glimpse at the pre-political PE,
> with absolutely SLAMMIN' beats and the riveting voice of Chuck.
And what about N.W.A.'s STRAIGHT OUT OF COMPTON?
Patrice.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 18:43:54 +0000 (WET)
From: Ricardo Reis <l43384@alfa.ist.utl.pt>
Subject: Re: explanation for a child
thanks for everyone input. i figure i grasp it now :)
Ricardo Reis
"Non Serviam"
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 13:35:46 -0600
From: Joseph Zitt <jzitt@metatronpress.com>
Subject: Re: From "The Onion"
On Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 12:41:18AM -0800, skip Heller wrote:
> I keep waiting for The Onion to get around to the Black Country Music Awards
> myself. Lifetime Achievement Award to Charlie Pride. And next -- uh-oh.
Ray Charles?
> Incidentally, the Zorn bleching and farting remix project (with armpit
> noises by Derek Bailey and Mark Feldman) is rumored to be powerful, moving,
> above ridicule and makes a bold new statement about emission. It is not to
> be taken lightly, and I resent your levity about this matter.
That's good to hear. In this corporate world, all projects need a strong
emission statement.
- --
| jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems |
| http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 13:52:47 -0500
From: Bob Sweet <bsweet@umich.edu>
Subject: Re: fire music
Geert:
You might be interested in reading about the community in Woodstock, New
York, which grew out of the free jazz movement. The Creative Music Studio,
which was founded by Ornette Coleman and Karl Berger was a nexus for the
evolution of free jazz into a world-music orientation. CMS was powered, in
large part, by free-jazz pioneers Ed Blackwell and Don Cherry and by the
"black arts movement" collectives Association for the Advancement of
Creative Musicians (represented by the Art Ensemble of Chicago, Douglas
Ewart, Anthony Braxton, Jack DeJohnette, Leroy Jenkins, and Leo Smith) and
the Black Arts Group in St. Louis (represented by Oliver Lake, J.D. Parran,
and others).
My book, a history of the Creative Music Studio, is called Music Universe,
Music Mind: Revisiting the Creative Music Studio, Woodstock, New York. You
can find out more at http://www.arborville.com, or email me off list.
Bob Sweet
bsweet@umich.edu
- --On Wednesday, March 20, 2002 6:06 PM +0100 Geert Buelens
<buelens@uia.ac.be> wrote:
> dear list-members,
>
> has any one of you read "Fire Music. A Political History of Jazz" (by
> Rob Backus, 1976)? it seems very hard to find and I'd like to know if I
> should continue my quest or just forget about it. Other interesting
> titles (books, articles) about the same subject (especially free jazz &
> black arts movement) are also very welcome.
> thanks,
>
> geert
>
>
>
> -
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 10:56:35 -0800
From: "gorilla thing" <gorillathing@hotmail.com>
Subject: ETHIOPIQUES
Hello,
Could you fella's give me an idea of
what ETHIOPIQUES sounds like before I jump on the
wagon as well.
- -Chad
_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 11:17:19 -0800
From: skip Heller <velaires@earthlink.net>
Subject: straight outta ...
It's nice to see hip-hop discussed so knowledgably in these parts.
For what it's worth, I think what De La Soul, PE, and NWA sprang on us in
the mid/late 80s was the true avant-garde American music, more than any
other. For all the sociological hogwash we've read about "consumer-driven
culture", "pop culture", and all those other after-the-fact-of-creation
terms, the fact of the matter was that some guys with innate musicality took
what they had at hand and reinvented the wheel in their own collective
image. Not only did they come up with an electronic music that didn't sound
like an eletric shaver being played over a broken AM radio, but they made it
in a way that communicated to real people without dumbing down either the
musical content or the lyric data. It was the hip-hop crowd that finally
made the American music for American people the way that Charles Ives spoke
of it: out on the edge, embracing the reality of American life, and using
existing elements of Americana without academic pretense. And it connected
with an audience, big time, without kowtowing to the niceties.
To my mind, the failure of the avant-garde has been that it has been
proudly, even arrogantly, insular -- not only in its expression, but also
its audience. These may seem like strong words, but, with the exception of
Zorn and a scant few others, who has been able to develop a growing
audience? Even Zappa admitted he had to churn out stuff like "Dinah Moe
Humm" if he wanted to sell some records. Granted, much of what presents
itself as avant-garde does not pretend to be designed for a big audience,
but then again much of what presents itself as avant-garde doesn't work very
well in the minds of most listeners, no matter what degree of
adventurousness they seem primed for.
But the hip-hop guys seemed to have gotten out of this by coming out on the
cusp of the rhythm'n'blues world, a world which has never been given credit
for how much truly avant-garde content it has generated. In the rock world,
the overblown aesthtics of prog seemed to crave the insular modus operandi,
which led to the commercial acceptance of prog lite corpo style (ie Kansas),
prog fusion (which appealed to the jock mentality of the teen males of the
time, because faster is better, especially with some fuzztone), and finally
the Ramones (because when stuff gets as pretentious and overblown as rock
was by 1976, you need two minute songs with no guitar solos). But none of
this stuff connected to the extent that hip-hop connected. The often
wished-for Next Beatles turned out to be Run DMC. Not only did their music
connect big, but anything advertised at young people from 1987 on had some
sort of hip-hop quotient attatched to it. And the musical/sonic intensity
of it -- and the aggression of its message -- only got nastier. yeah, you
had some rap lite, but groups like PE were outselling it over time.
Ives often wrote of his wish that American music would not only live up to
the ldeals this country's frontier nature, but that also would mean
something to the average American. Well, it happened just like he hoped.
But it doesn't seem like the avant-garde has really acknowledged it in any
meaningful way. Go figure.
skip h
NP: elvis presley, the sun sessions
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 14:16:59 -0500
From: "Sean Westergaard" <seawes@allmusic.com>
Subject: RE: Hip Hop
>So, anybody want to recommend some good starter discs for Washington DC's
>indigenous music, Go-Go? Comps or single artist albums, it doesn't matter.
this list has to start with Troublefunk. I don't really remember what's out
there by them, but i think there was a live album that was VERY good. their
studio stuff was not quite as hot, but they were a fun band. i think there
was a troublefunk album that was another casualty of the Infinite Zero label
closure.
sean
- -
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 11:40:47 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Subject: Re: straight outta ...
On Wed, 20 Mar 2002 11:17:19 -0800 skip Heller wrote:
>
> It's nice to see hip-hop discussed so knowledgably in these parts.
>
> For what it's worth, I think what De La Soul, PE, and NWA sprang on us in
> the mid/late 80s was the true avant-garde American music, more than any
> other. For all the sociological hogwash we've read about "consumer-driven
> culture", "pop culture", and all those other after-the-fact-of-creation
> terms, the fact of the matter was that some guys with innate musicality took
> what they had at hand and reinvented the wheel in their own collective
> image. Not only did they come up with an electronic music that didn't sound
> like an eletric shaver being played over a broken AM radio, but they made it
> in a way that communicated to real people without dumbing down either the
> musical content or the lyric data. It was the hip-hop crowd that finally
> made the American music for American people the way that Charles Ives spoke
> of it: out on the edge, embracing the reality of American life, and using
> existing elements of Americana without academic pretense. And it connected
> with an audience, big time, without kowtowing to the niceties.
Skip, your cheerleading of hip hop is moving, but don't you go a little bit
too far?
I am not an expert in popular American music, but I have the impression that
what hip hop did in the early 80's happened many times before (blues,
country, pop, etc).
Patrice.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 14:49:41 EST
From: RainDog138@aol.com
Subject: a hip hop ammendment
ok look - i've have thought of some other very important hip hop records that
need to be added to my original and very short list.
of course NWA's - "straight outta compton" was an incredibly important and
influencial recording, but it didn't come early enough to really qualify as
part of the birth of hip hop/rap music. (which was the original question)
that is why i gave you it's predecesors (sugar hill, grand master falsh and
the furious five, run dmc, and pe). now if you wanna seek the origins of
"gangster rap" then look no further than straight outta compton. no question
it was it's genesis.
other notables that shant be left out:
Slick Rick
LL Cool J
Doug E Fresh
Ice T
Too Short
KRS - 1
those are the originators.
as far as newer rap records go, few impress me. one artist stands above the
rest and he is relatively unknown. BROTHA LYNCH HUNG out of sacremento
california on Black Market Records. by far the most amazing and dramatic
stuff ive ever heard hip hop wise. his songs mix gangster rap with
cannibalistic horror and serial killing very smoothly and it comes across
extremely sincere and powerful. the music behind his stuff has no equal
either. amazing stuff.
check the "season of the sicc" and "loaded" albums. the music on loaded alone
will scare you. then when he speaks of real life gang killings and losing his
cousin to gang violence, you'll be rooting for him to exact revenge.
other newer releases to check out:
First Degree the D.E. - "Farenhiet Underbelly"
Twalib Kwali with the Youngblood Brass Band - "y'all stay up" (this is an
eight or nine piece brass band of 20 somethings doing all the music behind
twalib).
get brotha lynch. it's amazing.
we've talked way too much about hip hop now. oh well. - mike
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 11:54:49 -0800
From: skip Heller <velaires@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: straight outta ...
on 3/20/02 11:40 AM, Patrice L. Roussel at proussel@ichips.intel.com wrote:
> Skip, your cheerleading of hip hop is moving, but don't you go a little bit
> too far?
>
> I am not an expert in popular American music, but I have the impression that
> what hip hop did in the early 80's happened many times before (blues,
> country, pop, etc).
>
> Patrice.
I'd love to say that it did. But two big things count against me saying so:
1. Nobody invented a whole new style of country, or pop, or blues that
required a whole new vocal technique or, for that matter, a completely
different set of instruments that were required to put the music together
promforma.
2. A lot of pop music had been designed and built for non-academic audiences
and had relevent lyric data, but Springsteen, Dylan, Haggard, Guthrie etc
didn't play with any of musical norms (structure, texture, rhythms etc) in
any major way. You could say there were things leading up to it, but I
think it's safe to say there was nothing like it before. It's almost like
having Harry Partch hit the top 40, on terms of how much new stuff was
instigated and invented by hip hop guys.
skip h
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 15:00:08 -0600
From: Joseph Zitt <jzitt@metatronpress.com>
Subject: Re: explanation for a child
On Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 05:07:08PM +0000, Ricardo Reis wrote:
> can someone explain me the concept behind "music concrete"?
Different building materials have different densities and resonances.
Music concrete was an attempt to construct spaces from a variety of
these so that, for example, footsteps would play a melody when you
walked across a bridge. It was dicovered, however, that hard wood,
though more expensive and fragile, still worked better than stone.
(And hopefully someone will supply the real answer *grin*)
- --
| jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems |
| http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 15:12:56 EST
From: RainDog138@aol.com
Subject: Re: straight outta ...
WOW - to mention Harry Partch in order to describe the creativity of Hip Hop?
bold move my friend. that's a little hard to comprehend. hip hop pioneers
didn't build their own freaking instrument and devise a entirely new 48 tone
scale to free themselves from all confines of traditional western music. no
no no, rather they started out by rhyming over a 4/4 drum beat. not unlike
school girls using a jump rope as their metronome to sing - uhh RHYMES over.
I like hip hop, as you can tell from previous posts, but to say they were as
creative as harry partch is too much.
- -mike with his mind blown
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 15:07:45 -0600
From: Joseph Zitt <jzitt@metatronpress.com>
Subject: Re: explanation for a child
On Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 09:26:12AM -0800, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:
> The idea of musique concrete, as a separate genre, did not last long since
> after the creation of electronic music in 1953 in Koln by Herbert Heimer, both
> genres quickly fused to become electroacoustic music (or acousmatic, if you
> follow the French school).
This "creation", of course, happened in an alternate universe where,
to name a few people, John Cage, Otto Luening, Leon Theremin, and
Olivier Messiaen didn't work with electronic music well before then.
The history of music here on Earth differs significantly from that
story.
- --
| jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems |
| http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 12:37:17 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Subject: Re: explanation for a child
On Wed, 20 Mar 2002 15:07:45 -0600 Joseph Zitt wrote:
>
> On Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 09:26:12AM -0800, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:
>
> > The idea of musique concrete, as a separate genre, did not last long since
> > after the creation of electronic music in 1953 in Koln by Herbert Heimer, both
> > genres quickly fused to become electroacoustic music (or acousmatic, if you
> > follow the French school).
>
> This "creation", of course, happened in an alternate universe where,
> to name a few people, John Cage, Otto Luening, Leon Theremin, and
> Olivier Messiaen didn't work with electronic music well before then.
> The history of music here on Earth differs significantly from that
> story.
Joseph is right since Haydn was using clocks in his symphonies, we
should make him the founder of musique concrete. Unfortunately we
don't know enough about prehistoric composing method which means
that we might miss the point here.
Concerning Messiaen I am a little bit puzzled. Do you mean his use
of the Ondes Martenot? As far as I know Messiaen, his usage of
Ondes Martenot did not open a completely new approach to the
creative process. He used the new instrument in an old context.
When I talked about the creation of electronic music it was the way
many books on contemporaty music describe it. Basically, that is
more than just using some electronic instruments.
Anyway, excuse me if I hurted your American feelings.
Patrice.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 15:30:04 -0600
From: Joseph Zitt <jzitt@metatronpress.com>
Subject: Re: straight outta ...
On Wed, Mar 20, 2002 at 03:12:56PM -0500, RainDog138@aol.com wrote:
> WOW - to mention Harry Partch in order to describe the creativity of Hip Hop?
> bold move my friend. that's a little hard to comprehend. hip hop pioneers
> didn't build their own freaking instrument and devise a entirely new 48 tone
> scale to free themselves from all confines of traditional western music. no
> no no, rather they started out by rhyming over a 4/4 drum beat. not unlike
> school girls using a jump rope as their metronome to sing - uhh RHYMES over.
Well, while I'm not as sure as Skip that the stuff was utterly
unprecedented, they did bring in the use of electronics, turntables,
sampling, and the like, which was, in a sense more distinctive than
Partch's instrument building: when you get down to it, Partch was
still creating oddly shaped percussion, keyboard, and stringed
instruments with new tunings. The hip-hop instrument was a new set of
sounds and interfaces, often freed from dealing with tunings at all,
being based on the non-pitched and mutable tonalities of common
speech.
- --
| jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems |
| http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |
- -
------------------------------
End of Zorn List Digest V3 #830
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