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Zorn List Digest     Wednesday, February 20 2002     Volume 03 : Number 792



In this issue:
-
       Odp: "Filles de Silent Brew"
       Re: dolphy weekend
       Re: Odp: loren, eric, deidre, jimi and anthony
       Re: sanborn does hemphill
       bandleading -- food for thought
       RE: bandleading -- food for thought
       Re: bandleading -- food for thought
       RE: "Filles de Silent Brew"
       Re: bandleading -- food for thought
       High from "Pharaoh's dance"
       Odp: bandleading -- food for thought
       Odp: "Filles de Silent Brew"
       RE: jimi
       Re: Avant College Groups
       Re: Elton Dean & others
       radio show with unusual Bar Khokba line-up (again)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 03:43:00 +0100
From: "Marcin Gokieli" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Odp: "Filles de Silent Brew"

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Also remember that Filles is made up of two rather different sets of
music stuck together. Hearing the material in their historical contexts
within the box sets is a revelation.


*** not THAT much different. wwe have corea/holland on some tunes replacing
carter/hanckock, but it's all been reocrde the same year. those sessions
were were reocrded just a month or two apart.
I like listening to those tunes both in original context and in the session
way of the boxed sets, but 'bitches brew' works IMO much better as 4cd then
2lp.  One can get the idea of what the idea was about when one hears the
entire sessions.
Marcin


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 18:34:27 -0800
From: skip heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: dolphy weekend

on 2/19/02 6:05 PM, thomas chatterton at [e-mail] wrote:

> Sorry! My point was that in the social climate of Amerikkka at the time,
> Dolphy might have found it just a bit more difficult than Brubeck to take
> the 'Out To Lunch' band out on the road for a comprehensive tour of that
> material.  Your comment that a bandleader like Brubeck could have done so
> much more with those tunes didn't really take that reality into account.

Let me explain.  My comment had nothing to do with Brubeck per se, but more
with any bandleader who had a touring unit that did things uncommon to the
period in which the work was designed.  I could as easily have used John
Lewis as the example.  He and his band were black and on Prestige but
achieved enough popular success to move up to Atlantic.

Also, that comment had less to do with the tunes themselves than to do with
refining a bunch of music that requires the players to play things for which
their respective backgrounds have little hands-on precedent.  The writing on
OTL was full of non-typical stuff that it would be hard to play naturally
after only one day of rehearsal.  The same could and in fact has to be said
about Brubeck's odd-time work.

As a bandleader who often makes his groups do stuff they don't normally do,
I take a lot of realities into account that non-musicians should never have
to.  The first is that asking them to groove in an odd time or unfamiliar
feel or to play fiendishly difficult music isn't something they're going to
do comfortably after one day of rehearsal.  That much is never relegated to
race and should not be turned into a racial question.

skip h


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 18:41:17 -0800
From: skip heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Odp: loren, eric, deidre, jimi and anthony

on 2/19/02 6:25 PM, Marcin Gokieli at [e-mail] wrote:

>> sterility you're sensing sounds to me like those  guys working hard to
> read
>> the music.
>
> But skip... just listen to the part of the first tune with the vibes solo
> where TW starts hiting the drums very loud in the middle of Hutcherson's
> solo. that's wild improv at full flight, not an  effort to read music.
>
>
> -
I never implied for a second that there's not a bunch of compelling playing
there.  I just presented the thought that maybe what some take as sterily is
simply guys trying to do a lot of new stuff for which they have not had the
most luxuriant rehearsal time, and might have sacrificed a little in order
to avoid making mistakes. That album is full of really hard music, and you
can tell there's a little bit of holding back because the music was so new
to the players and they were doing everything they could to execute it
properly.

I always look at this kind of album -- where somebody's pushing the
transition of the music -- with extra slack.  That anybody could be expected
to do what they did after one day of rehearsal is unfair.  That they pulled
it off as well as they did is miraculous.  It's Dolphy's great achievement
as a composer/arranger, to be sure.  But I maintain that it would have been
even better if he'd had months and not one day of playing those tunes with
that group.

skip h


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 21:56:09 -0500
From: Alan Lankin <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: sanborn does hemphill

Diminutive Mysteries is scheduled to be reissued by W&W in Oct 2004...


Alan Lankin

- --
Jazzmatazz
http://jazzmatazz.home.att.net
[e-mail]




- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 20:53:21 -0800
From: skip heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: bandleading -- food for thought

There's a lot of work discussed on this list to varying degrees of insight,
and one thing does not seem to be taken into account as frequently as I
believe it should:

Bandleaders who make strides are generally able to do so because they have a
standing unit that can evolve the music over a big chunk of time, whereas
guys that get together for a recording session don't have that advantage.

The big reason guys like Dave Douglas -- or Dave brubeck -- register big
growth in their recorded output is because their groups are/were out there
working often enough that the ensembles accrue shared vocabulary.

Often, you hear guys referring to the old "blowing session" days of Prestige
and early Blue Note as some kind of golden age, usually because guys who
took good solos were recorded often, usually playing music that didn;t
require much rehearsal (how much do you have to rehearse "Have You Met Miss
Jones" or whatever?).  The result -- lots of records filled with good solos,
but the level of interplay generally hinged on whether the rhythm section
played together often enough to lock in easily.  As much as I love many of
the soloists, these records often bore me to tears, because there's nothing
notable in them but the solos.

How great was Eric Dolphy? We'll never exactly know the answer to that,
because he never took his best shot under the circumstances afforded the
lowliest Sunset Strip folk-rock act -- the time to play a bunch of music
together, develop the ensemble, and pick the best material from a catalog
that's been tried, edited, and tweaked.  Aside from his own soloing style,
how much "signature" Eric Dolphy do we have? Compared to a lot of composers
of lesser stature, not much.

Whatever your opinion of Brubeck, he was absolutely heroic in how he kept
his band together, and even moreso in his ability to get the guys feeling
good enough about doing something that looked to have no promise in the
marketplace (jazz records with no standard tunes and with everything NOT in
4/4).  And the fact that he had the patience to shape that band to the point
where they played very easily in 5, 9, or whatever else would have been lost
had he not had the time to develop that group that way.  The same is to be
said about bands led by Mingus, Ellery Eskelin, Uri Caine, Zorn, or anyone
else whose performances/recordings are made up of ideas the players were not
playing until they wound up in that group.

One of the reasons Miles' 50s/60s output is awarded such high marks is that
his bands were generally the best-sounding.  As to why that is, it's
generally because they played together the most, and in such a visible
situation that mandated chartable growth or subsequent unemployment
(although I think George Coleman got a raw deal).  Does anyone honestly
think Herbie was the only pianist/composer of that era with the raw talent
to cut it in that band? He surely wasn't, and every city has its major
genius who never got the shot.  Of course, HH had the hustle to know what to
do with it, and that never hurts.  But Miles' rep as a human music incubator
had an effect on the musicians with whom he played, and the fact that he
worked a lot, and usually 4-5 nights at a time, had as much to do with how
his groups did what they did as any spoken conceptual directive had.

If Dolphy had positioned himself as a leader and lived longer, would he have
accomplished things of similar greatness? Hard to say, obviously.  Did
Brubeck? Yes, although not in a way as sweeping as Miles'.  Will Zorn? He
probably has, but it's hard to say anything definitive about what a man has
accomplished while he's still accomplishing it.

skip h



- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 00:03:26 -0500
From: "Zachary Steiner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: bandleading -- food for thought

It seems to me that Zorn is fond of the one time group thing (with the
notable exceptions of Naked City and Masada).  It could be from my point
of view as a non-NY resident.  He may develop those groups that seem to
come from nowhere in a live setting before he records.  Is this a flaw
with my perspective or do albums like Spy v. Spy, Elegy, The Big
Gundown, etc come from a group that assembles for the date but then
disperses not to play again?

Zach



- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 00:06:03 -0600
From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: bandleading -- food for thought

On Wed, Feb 20, 2002 at 12:03:26AM -0500, Zachary Steiner wrote:
> It seems to me that Zorn is fond of the one time group thing (with the
> notable exceptions of Naked City and Masada).  It could be from my point
> of view as a non-NY resident.  He may develop those groups that seem to
> come from nowhere in a live setting before he records.  Is this a flaw
> with my perspective or do albums like Spy v. Spy, Elegy, The Big
> Gundown, etc come from a group that assembles for the date but then
> disperses not to play again?

Others will know better, but I saw Spy vs Spy quite a while before they
recorded (and before they threw the thrash aspect in). If you follow
his discography, i think you'll see that, while he may not have the exact
same roster from piece to piece, over a range of time he would use a
pretty consistent pool of people.

- --
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems        |
|                            http://www.metatronpress.com/nj/smwb.html |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 23:04:33 -0700
From: "Matthew W Wirzbicki  (S)" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: "Filles de Silent Brew"



>Some exception! This album is known as a kind of concerto for Williams.

I agree.

If you don't "get" this album just tap the pulse and listen to Tony
Williams.  Or just listen to Tony Williams.

Matt



- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 22:44:49 -0800
From: skip heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: bandleading -- food for thought

on 2/19/02 9:03 PM, Zachary Steiner at [e-mail] wrote:

> It seems to me that Zorn is fond of the one time group thing (with the
> notable exceptions of Naked City and Masada).  It could be from my point
> of view as a non-NY resident.  He may develop those groups that seem to
> come from nowhere in a live setting before he records.  Is this a flaw
> with my perspective or do albums like Spy v. Spy, Elegy, The Big
> Gundown, etc come from a group that assembles for the date but then
> disperses not to play again?
>
> Zach
>

Spy Vs Spy did play out, and GUNDOWN was more of a repetoiry thing.  ELEGY
relied more on thru-composing (if it's the work I'm thinking of).

sh


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 09:11:58 +0100
From: duncan youngerman <[e-mail]>
Subject: High from "Pharaoh's dance"

Flying high from listening to "Pharaoh's dance" (track 1 from "Bitches'
brew") I don't know how many times...
What a total gas... The slow inexorable unfolding of the form, the
Corea-Zawinul gang's constant insect-like bopping with added grit from
McLaughlin, the sudden cluster breaks, the bass clarinet's dark
brooding, the simmering polyrythmic multiple drums + congas, Shorter's
exquisite widely outstretched solo, and then the majesty of Miles (and
what a great vehicle indeed this tune is for His Majesty!)...
This is one of the 4 or 5 pieces of music to send into outer space to
show eventual extraterrestials what humanity is all about. A peak...

DY.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 10:04:47 +0100
From: "Marcin Gokieli" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Odp: bandleading -- food for thought

Skip,
I think we undertand our respective points of view pretty well. I think
you're largely right, and your food is pretty tasty ;-). I'd like to stress
two points, however:
    1. It''s true that having the OTL band for rehearsal +  tour for some
time would serve that music very well (i often have the feeling that it's
unjust that some 'stupid' problems prevent music from being prepared &
recorded). Just imagine what, let's say 'filles' would sound like without
years of playing together. We have an alt take of tout de suite on the
quitet boxed set - and it lacks the main solo section! it sounds more like
'mabry'. The quintet improvised the arrangemant of the tune from the initial
sketch thanks to their experience of being a band for many years (the degree
of mutual understang on that album is a marvel). There's no trace of such
things on OTL, and we could have treasures had this happend (simply a longer
recording session could do miracles, as you pointed out).
    Having said that, however, I want to point out that there's something
interesting in hearing that music in that very  way - like a kind of
rehearsal. You hear the tension, ambition, good will, and effort to pull out
as much as possible  of the music. Some mutual understanding and  fluency in
playing may have been maybe more interesting ;-), but the heroism we have is
beautiful. I hear similiar things in zappa's bands - they did not have
enough time to practice the material, and they somehow 'fight' for the
sound.
    2. I'm not totally convinced about your idea of players being
replaceable. OK,  there was a great pianist in every town, but somehow HH
was the ideal (being a part of the collective tha defined the goal helps a
lot). what would happen had another musician been in that band? hard to say.
But given the degree to which the introduction of new members changed MD's
music in late '60s (see silent way box), it's rather controversial. MD gave
the members of his bands the possibility of giving very personal
contributions in the frames set by him.
    Besisdes, it's very interesting how unsufficient musical talent is for
muical creation. It's largely about being able to colaborate with some group
of persons,  finding places to play and be paid etc.
best,
Marcin


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 10:07:34 +0100
From: "Marcin Gokieli" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Odp: "Filles de Silent Brew"

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Matthew W Wirzbicki (S) <[e-mail]>

> >Some exception! This album is known as a kind of concerto for Williams.
>
> I agree.
>
> If you don't "get" this album just tap the pulse and listen to Tony
> Williams.  Or just listen to Tony Williams.

And then start listening  to the way the other memebers listened and reacted
to TW's playing.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 09:51:27 +0000
From: Richard Gardner <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: jimi

on 20/2/02 2:27 AM, Zorn List Digest at
[e-mail] wrote:

> Don't know if it's been mentioned, but IIRC, there's a Jimi covers album done
> by a bluegrass band too...I'm at work and away from my CDs at this time, and I
> can't think of the CD's title or group (was it Psychograss?)

Not quite the same thing but did anyone else ever hear the Trailer Park
Casanovas bluegrass version of "The Ace of Spades". One of my all time
favourite singles. Suddenly the song makes complete sense.

Richard Gardner


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 11:20:44 +0100
From: "Remco Takken" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Avant College Groups

> I hate to be bothersome again about my little aspirations, but... I'm
> looking for a name for my Experimental group.
Is it based on heavy metal?
Cruel Abortion might be appropriate.

Regards, Remco Takken

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Zachary Steiner" <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2002 2:33 AM
Subject: Avant College Groups


I'm looking for something
> catchy to draw people in, but respectable too.  We toyed with S.E.X.
> (Students for Experimental Xpression), but that is pretty unrespectable.
> I don't think a college would recognize a group called SEX, let alone
> give them any money.  Any ideas?  The Zornlist has proven to be pretty
> clever in the past, so I though I'd try.
>
> Zach
>
>
>
> -
>
> ================================================================
> Deze e-mail is door E-mail VirusScanner van Planet Internet gecontroleerd
op virussen.
> Op http://www.planet.nl/evs staat een verwijzing naar de actuele lijst
waar op wordt gecontroleerd.
>


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 06:51:12 -0500
From: Rich Williams <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Elton Dean & others

>On Tue, 19 Feb 2002 14:21:23 -0800  "s~Z" wrote:
>>
>>  Elton Dean + Long John Baldry = sources of the stage name, Elton
>>  John
>
>Hum... I thought it was Elton Dean and John Taylor. But my memory
>is getting worse and worse these days.
>
>    Patrice.


    Hmmm....and I thought it was Elton Dean and John
Surman....Unfortunately a lot of Dean's best work is out-of-print;
The 2 Ninesense LP's are highly recommended if you can
beg/borrow/steal copies. The Quartet date on ECM "Boundaries" is
another good one.  Cuneiform has reissued his first CBS disc, with
bonus material, but this being the zorn-list, you might want to check
out the more experimental improv discs with Joe Gallivan, "The Cheque
is in the mail" or "Cruel but Fair"

Rich

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 13:26:48 +0100
From: "Remco Takken" <[e-mail]>
Subject: radio show with unusual Bar Khokba line-up (again)

Hi,
This was dicussed in january, here's a late addition:

back in january, I remembered from the top of my head, a Dutch radio show
with Bar Khokba playing different arrangements to the cd recordings. I just
heard some more exact dates to this recording.

That show was recorded at the RUMOR Festival, at Tivoli Utrecht, october 28,
1996, and probably broadcasted either by vpro or nps radio.

Thanks to Marcel Kranendonk for getting the facts right...

Regards, Remco Takken


- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V3 #792
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