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Zorn List Digest      Tuesday, February 19 2002      Volume 03 : Number 789



In this issue:
-
       Re: dolphy weekend
       RE: Scheherazade and Shepp
       Re: Johnny Ray
       Re: dolphy weekend
       Re: dolphy weekend
       Re: More Aging Gracefully, Nick Lowe, and pop music
       Avant College Groups
       Re: Dolphy
       Re: Dolphy
       Re: Dolphy
       Re: Across Threads (BAG article)
       Re: dolphy weekend
       New Music for Early Instruments in RealAudio, Mappings for the week beginning February 12, 2002
       Re: dolphy weekend
       Re: dolphy weekend
       RE: dolphy weekend
       dolphy

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 15:59:37 -0800
From: skip heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: dolphy weekend

on 2/18/02 3:45 PM, Marcin Gokieli at [e-mail] wrote:

> You may be right. It sounds mannred in a way. But i just like that
> unrehearsed sound, where drums go ways louder then the vibraphone. You hear
> the band trying hard to get something - they do not achieve the goal, but
> the quest is incredibly exciting.

If that band had been playing together as a regular working unit, I think
they'd have been playing that stuff in the most easy, off-handed way.  Look
at what brubeck managed to accomplish.


> 'filles de kilimajro' - the best jazz album ever -

If you don't get flamed for such an unequivocal statement about a record
with actual tracable tempos and chord changes, I'll be shocked.

skip h


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 19:01:14 -0500 (EST)
From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Scheherazade and Shepp

Another was called The Communist. Considering Shepp's
stance at the time, I figure they come across as
junior grade LeRoi Jones.

Ken

- --- Steve Smith <[e-mail]> wrote:
> That's a good question, and one I can't answer. But
> I think it would be safe
> to guess that they did, given the texts he used in
> some of his earlier
> recordings (like "Malcolm, Malcolm... Semper
> Malcolm"). I do know that at
> least one of his plays, Junebug Graduates Tonight!
> was successfully staged
> off-Broadway in 1967.


=====
Ken Waxman
[e-mail]
www.jazzword.com - Jazz/improv news, CD reviews and photos

______________________________________________________________________
Web-hosting solutions for home and business! http://website.yahoo.ca

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 16:03:55 -0800
From: skip heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Johnny Ray

on 2/18/02 3:52 PM, Ken Waxman at [e-mail] wrote:

> Skip:
>
> I don't mind that --even if he's wrong. But you gotta
> know what you're talking about before putting pen to
> paper or finger to keyboard (flamers please note). At
> one point in the book, if I remember correctly, he
> tries to put down bop -- which to him seems to be the
> pinnacle of modernism -- viz a viz Ray by knocking A
> Love Supreme, not exactly bop, a saying Ray didn't
> need the trappings of supreme love because he already
> had love of his own.
>
> It makes more -- or less-- sense when you read it.
>
> Ken

I meant more than anything that whatever Whiteside writes about post-Bird
jazz is to be relatively discounted.  He's a helluva nice guy and I feel
compelled to defend him.  And, while his opinions can get in the way, his
scholarship is generally commendable.

skip h


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 01:11:19 +0000
From: "thomas chatterton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: dolphy weekend

>From: skip heller <[e-mail]>
>
>If that band had been playing together as a regular working unit, I think
>they'd have been playing that stuff in the most easy, off-handed way.  Look
>at what brubeck managed to accomplish.

I'm somewhat hesitant to bring up this complex subject here, but don't you
think there were some pretty 'obvious' reasons why a Brubeck could
accomplish this...



_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 17:17:39 -0800
From: skip heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: dolphy weekend

on 2/18/02 5:11 PM, thomas chatterton at [e-mail] wrote:

>
> I'm somewhat hesitant to bring up this complex subject here, but don't you
> think there were some pretty 'obvious' reasons why a Brubeck could
> accomplish this...
>
Three:

Brubeck was a very skilled bandleader -- enough to keep his personnel in
place for years rather than months

and: The band played often, so developing the music could happen more
readily night in/night out.

Dave is a genius.

skip h


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 20:22:20 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: More Aging Gracefully, Nick Lowe, and pop music

In a message dated 2/18/02 1:13:13 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< I think what he's saying is that while the proliferation of boy bands
 doesn't surprise him, he's struck by the number of "alternative" groups
 that seem all to have been cut from the same roll of flannel. >>


Okay-well, that makes a bit more sense.  I was looking at "boy bands" from
the Osmond Brothers/Jackson 5/Boyszone/N'Sync spin than rock bands composed
of males only.

- --
np: Oddtoot- Mental Money

=dg=

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 20:33:05 -0500
From: "Zachary Steiner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Avant College Groups

I hate to be bothersome again about my little aspirations, but... I'm
looking for a name for my Experimental group.  I'm looking for something
catchy to draw people in, but respectable too.  We toyed with S.E.X.
(Students for Experimental Xpression), but that is pretty unrespectable.
I don't think a college would recognize a group called SEX, let alone
give them any money.  Any ideas?  The Zornlist has proven to be pretty
clever in the past, so I though I'd try.

Zach



- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 17:37:43 -0800
From: hyyy gbbbb <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Dolphy

Sure, Dolphy had his pet licks but not more than all the rest of them.
He strikes me as the kind of guy who'd be very much at home in today's
"downtownish" kind of scenes--where awareness of, and interest in, so many
musics  informs a vibrant creative community. He's arguably a direct
antecedent to someone like Zorn.

And, regarding BLUES AND THE ABSTRACT TRUTH, put almost anyone else in
Dolphy's place and that would be just another better-than-average album.
E.D.'s contributions are a league apart from the other soloists--as great as
they are. To my ears, when E.D. is soloing the music really is transported.

You folks absolutely MUST go back and check out "The Prophet" from Live At
The Five Spot (1961). Dolphy's solo here, with great assistance from Ed
Blackwell,is a tour-de-force.  Traditions encompassing earl bostic, benny
carter, bird merge exuberantly, all the while portending what was soon to
come via braxton and roscoe mitchell.

Also check out the "other" version of Epistrophy with Bennink and Misha, on
the LP ICP 017. A great Lengthy Examination of textural/noisy/extended
techniques on bass clarinet.

And, we all know the 64 european tour with Mingus is the bomb. Many shows
were recorded but definitely GO GET two of the last from that tour:
Wuppertal (on Enja--Mingus In Europe vols.1 and 2)
Stuttgart (on cd at www.rkounique.com and LP on the italian bootleg
uniquejazz label)
Listen to the versions of Fables of Faubus on these two shows--they both
contain virtuosic scintilating bass clarinet outings amidst a turbulent
mingus-style-constant-rearrangement, which, in both cases, includes duets
between Dolphy and Mingus.

If you can find the october 62 live date from the Gaslight Inn  (once again
the itaian bootleg LP labels Ingo or unique jazz)  be sure to check out
Dolphy's extended alto on GW.


Forgive the loquacity but I remain, as ever, an unrepentant completist
Dolphy-ophile. He's almost the only one who can prompt me to wax rhapsodic
in a proseletyzing manner such as this.

Not to drag Ornette back into it but a case might be made that E.D. did as
much to move music forward from WITHIN the chorus form as Ornette did from
without. (and check 'em out playing together on that John lewis date on
Atlantic!)

- --graham connah

>
>    skip:
> The mention of OUT TO LUNCH motivated me to pull out some Dolphy's for the
> first time in a while, and I have come to believe I was right about Eric
> Dolphy all along.  He was the David Sanborn of the avant-garde -- the guy
> with spotless technique who could play with anyone and fit in completely
> while retaining his own style (this is props -- I like Sanborn on other
> people's records)  Downside: Dolphy repeats himself a lot.  I remember
> transcribing stuff he played over blues and rhythm changes, and he was prone
> to doing certain things over and over again (and in different keys -- the
> curse of the obsessive practicer).
>
> I pulled out the Mingus stuff, and I think that's overall the best place for
> him.  Trane was so fixated on playing one kind of style by the time he
> hooked up with Dolphy that, except for OLE, we don't get the widest view
> possible of what Dolphy (or anyone else in the quartet +1) could do in a
> small group context.  But Mingus really exploited every resource his players
> and compositions had to offer.  BLUES & THE ABSTRACT TRUTH is a whole other
> thing -- almost an omnibus of jazz soloing styles on the late fifties (with
> Bill Evans taking every piano player through the university of how to play
> behind such different horn players).
>
> After listening to the Mingus stuff, OUT TO LUNCH actually sounds a little
> mannered and intentional to me.  But that could be do to not enough
> rehearsal (the tunes are hard), or the players just not yet being quite
> comfortable with a new idiom.  It's hard to say anything about records that
> bring a lot of new devices to the table.
>
> Years ago, I had a Dolphy album on Everest where he played "Jitterbug Waltz"
> on the flute, and I wouldn't mind having that again.  The exuberence of that
> performance was just shy of Rahsaan Roland Kirk, and that's never a bad
> thing.
>
>
> - -
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of Zorn List Digest V3 #786
> *******************************
>
>
> To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to
> "[e-mail]"
> with
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>
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> Problems? Email the list owner at


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 17:44:24 -0800
From: skip heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Dolphy

on 2/18/02 5:37 PM, hyyy gbbbb at [e-mail] wrote:

> And, regarding BLUES AND THE ABSTRACT TRUTH, put almost anyone else in
> Dolphy's place and that would be just another better-than-average album.
> E.D.'s contributions are a league apart from the other soloists--as great as
> they are. To my ears, when E.D. is soloing the music really is transported.

I'm an unaplogetic Bill Evans guy on this one and most others.  and I really
feel it was BE who pulled that album together.  OR ELSE!!


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 17:46:14 -0800
From: skip heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Dolphy

on 2/18/02 5:44 PM, skip heller at [e-mail] wrote:

> I'm an unaplogetic Bill Evans guy on this one and most others.  and I really
> feel it was BE who pulled that album together.  OR ELSE!!
>

sorry -- that was supposed to be for graham alone

sh


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 20:37:44 -0600
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Across Threads (BAG article)

s~Z wrote: http://www.oliverlake.net/bag.html

Thanks for forwarding the link for the BAG article.  I've heard occasional
stories about BAG performances, but the article reproduced on Lake's site is
the most extensive history of them I've seen.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 19:41:07 -0800 (PST)
From: Thomas Choate <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: dolphy weekend

it always felt intentional to me, in a great
way...like tension, push and shove.
one of the first 'jazz' records i bought..and still
looking for more of that sound. i have his illinois
live, and the 4 cd village vangaurd/trane, completely
different stuff.
can anyone enlighten me to some of the process? or is
it just the combo of people in the setting?
or any other records with the tension/free/composed
vibe?

amor fati,
square thomas


- --- skip heller <[e-mail]> wrote:
> The mention of OUT TO LUNCH motivated me to pull out
> some Dolphy's for the
> first time in a while, and I have come to believe I
> was right about Eric
> Dolphy all along.  He was the David Sanborn of the
> avant-garde -- the guy
> with spotless technique who could play with anyone
> and fit in completely
> while retaining his own style (this is props -- I
> like Sanborn on other
> people's records)  Downside: Dolphy repeats himself
> a lot.  I remember
> transcribing stuff he played over blues and rhythm
> changes, and he was prone
> to doing certain things over and over again (and in
> different keys -- the
> curse of the obsessive practicer).
>
> I pulled out the Mingus stuff, and I think that's
> overall the best place for
> him.  Trane was so fixated on playing one kind of
> style by the time he
> hooked up with Dolphy that, except for OLE, we don't
> get the widest view
> possible of what Dolphy (or anyone else in the
> quartet +1) could do in a
> small group context.  But Mingus really exploited
> every resource his players
> and compositions had to offer.  BLUES & THE ABSTRACT
> TRUTH is a whole other
> thing -- almost an omnibus of jazz soloing styles on
> the late fifties (with
> Bill Evans taking every piano player through the
> university of how to play
> behind such different horn players).
>
> After listening to the Mingus stuff, OUT TO LUNCH
> actually sounds a little
> mannered and intentional to me.  But that could be
> do to not enough
> rehearsal (the tunes are hard), or the players just
> not yet being quite
> comfortable with a new idiom.  It's hard to say
> anything about records that
> bring a lot of new devices to the table.
>
> Years ago, I had a Dolphy album on Everest where he
> played "Jitterbug Waltz"
> on the flute, and I wouldn't mind having that again.
>  The exuberence of that
> performance was just shy of Rahsaan Roland Kirk, and
> that's never a bad
> thing.
>
>
> -
>


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games
http://sports.yahoo.com

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 22:41:43 -0600
From: Herb Levy <[e-mail]>
Subject: New Music for Early Instruments in RealAudio, Mappings for the week beginning February 12, 2002

Hi y'all,

This week on Mappings <http://www.antennaradio.com/avant/mappings/>,
you'll hear music for recorders, forte-pianos, harpsichords and the
like, by composers Louis Andriessen, Luciano Berio, Allison Cameron,
Evelyn Ficarra, Peter Hannan, Mauricio Kagel, and Gyorgy Ligeti.

The show went online Monday evening around 10:00 PM (-0600 GMT) and
will remain online at the above URL for a week. Last week's program
(featuring works by Ruth Crawford Seeger & Johanna M Beyer) is still
available in the Mappings archive
<http://www.antennaradio.com/avant/mappings/index1.htm>, where you
can also find play lists for the program since it began in March 1998.

With luck this week Antenna Radio REALLY will be moving to a new
server, with a slightly different hierarchy for the Web site. The
URLs above should work for the next week or two though.

Hope you tune in to the program; see you online.

Bests,

Herb

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 05:17:30 +0000
From: "thomas chatterton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: dolphy weekend

>From: skip heller <[e-mail]>


>Three:
>
>Brubeck was a very skilled bandleader -- enough to keep his personnel in
>place for years rather than months
>
>and: The band played often, so developing the music could happen more
>readily night in/night out.
>
>Dave is a genius.

...and he's white!

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 21:29:39 -0800
From: skip heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: dolphy weekend

on 2/18/02 9:17 PM, thomas chatterton at [e-mail] wrote:

>> From: skip heller <[e-mail]>
>
>
>> Three:
>>
>> Brubeck was a very skilled bandleader -- enough to keep his personnel in
>> place for years rather than months
>>
>> and: The band played often, so developing the music could happen more
>> readily night in/night out.
>>
>> Dave is a genius.
>
> ...and he's white!
>
I don't think that particularly assured him any success.  He cancelled a ton
of gigs where he was asked to bring a white bass player and not Gene Wright.
But given that Dave's fans included Mingus, Miles, and Ellington, I don't
think they had a problem with his being white.

skip h


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 00:43:02 -0500
From: "Steve Smith" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: dolphy weekend

Dave's record on the subject of civil rights is well documented,
particularly as regards his defense of Gene Wright's position in the band.
His reflection on racism in Ken Burns' series was one of the more genuinely
poignant moments in the entire production. Race probably played no role at
all in the longevity of his classic quartet - but it probably played a
significant role in the ability of Columbia Records to market him to a
mainstream audience.

Add Cecil Taylor and Anthony Braxton to the list of ardent admirers.

Steve Smith
[e-mail]

- -----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail]
[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of skip heller

>> Dave is a genius.
>
> ...and he's white!
>
I don't think that particularly assured him any success.  He cancelled a ton
of gigs where he was asked to bring a white bass player and not Gene Wright.
But given that Dave's fans included Mingus, Miles, and Ellington, I don't
think they had a problem with his being white.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 09:59:37 +0100
From: "Marcin Gokieli" <[e-mail]>
Subject: dolphy

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "skip heller" <[e-mail]>

> After listening to the Mingus stuff, OUT TO LUNCH actually sounds a little
> mannered and intentional to me.  But that could be do to not enough
> rehearsal (the tunes are hard), or the players just not yet being quite
> comfortable with a new idiom.  It's hard to say anything about records
that
> bring a lot of new devices to the table.

You may be right. It sounds mannred in a way. But i just like that
unrehearsed sound, where drums go ways louder then the vibraphone. You hear
the band trying hard to get something - they do not achieve the goal, but
the quest is incredibly exciting. The 'cool free' sound of flute, clarinet,
& vibraphone is exceptional. A kind of sweetness/agression mix that only
'filles de kilimajro' - the best jazz album ever - managed to achieve and go
further. tony william's drumming has somethinfg to do with that... and boy,
what a sound Richard Davis has on that album.
Marcin (who just got back from a very strong  norbert kubacz on bass/ macio
moretti on drums live show)



- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V3 #789
*******************************


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