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2002-02-07
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From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest)
To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Zorn List Digest V3 #762
Reply-To: zorn-list
Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Precedence: bulk
Zorn List Digest Friday, February 8 2002 Volume 03 : Number 762
In this issue:
-
Fwd: RE: Zorn as Miles????????
Fwd: rejazzdeath/satoko fuji
Re: Fwd: RE: Zorn as Miles????????
Previte
RE: Previte
Christian Wolff again
Re: Jazz Death?
Re: Sick of Miles
[yawn]radical jewish series
Re: Zorn as Miles????????
Re: Zorn as Miles????????
Re: Zorn as Miles????????
Re: Fwd: RE: Zorn as Miles????????
Re: Zorn as Miles????????
Re: Luttenbachers again / 'New York is Now' book
Re: Fwd: RE: Zorn as Miles????????
RE: Fwd: RE: Zorn as Miles????????
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 16:31:06 +0100 (CET)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Efr=E9n=20del=20Valle?= <efrendv@yahoo.es>
Subject: Fwd: RE: Zorn as Miles????????
HI,
My previous e-mail was sent in error. I thought I'd
deleted it to avoid more arguments on MIles. I've had
thousands. The fact is that I leave an open door
because his music might sink in in the future- maybe a
near future, and I understand that he means so much
for so many. I've enjoyed his "Porgy & Bess" album,
"Ballads" (which is a compilation I think) and several
others, but for instance, "Kind of Blue" just leaves
me cold, absolutely cold. What really upsets me is the
kind of guy who bangs his head against the wall when I
say this.
I'll probably come back to "Bitches Brew" and let's
see. It was many years ago that I listened to that
album and perhaps my scope is a bit wider now. I hope
so!
Best,
EfrΘn del Valle
>
> Kind of Blue was the second Miles album that I
> bought. Birth of the
> Cool was the first ( I liked it b/c I was into Gerry
> Mulligan at the
> time). I turned Kind of Blue and on expected to be
> blown away having
> heard the hype. What did I hear? Elevator music! I
> relegated it to the
> inoffensive list of CDs I listen to when I sleep. I
> found myself asking
> why this Miles Davis character was so important if
> his "best" album was
> pretty lame. All that changed when I happened to be
> looking in the
> Miles section of the record store, the cover of
> Bitches Brew called to
> me. I put it on for the ride home. WOW! I was blown
> away. I didn't know
> what I was hearing, but oh did I like it. I later
> went to explore
> earlier Miles, but it doesn't really do it for me
> like the electric
> years.
>
> Dodging the stones,
> Zach
>
>
_______________________________________________________________
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- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 16:48:00 +0100 (CET)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Efr=E9n=20del=20Valle?= <efrendv@yahoo.es>
Subject: Fwd: rejazzdeath/satoko fuji
Hi,
I'm surprised nobody mentioned "Kitsune-bi" on Tzadik.
That record is a blast! If features her regular trio
w/ Dresser and Black, plus solo pieces and duos with a
Japanese saxophonist. An amazing record.
I also purchased recently a Japanese import record by
the trio called "Looking Out of the Window" which is
superb.
The big band stuff I found a bit too disperse, there's
a clear lack of energy, IMHO, at least in comparison
to her smaller groups. I haven't listened to "Jo"
which I've heard it's very good, but I own the other
two releases with large ensembles and they didn't grab
me (i don't remember the titles: "Double Take" and
...?)
Best,
EfrΘn del Valle
>
> as for recs, brian, i'd go straight to 'double
> take'. she and wm parker are
> two of the only people i know of who are really
> mining big band. but i
> realize, of course, that that sentence might well
> lead you to stay away from
> it.
>
> jo, toward to west, others are also very good, and
> vulcan is intersting for
> tatsuya yoshida's presence, but april shower and
> junction i'm less sold on.
> i'm actually a little worried that she, who struck
> me as a real voice, might
> be falling into a jazz trap. but i'm hoping to see
> her in nyc and at victo
> in the spring, so i'll reserve doomsaying.
>
> kg
>
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
> Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger:
> http://messenger.msn.com
>
>
> -
>
_______________________________________________________________
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- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 08:15:40 -0800
From: Tosh <tosh@loop.com>
Subject: Re: Fwd: RE: Zorn as Miles????????
I too think 'Kind of Blue' is slightly overrated. A very good album
but I am not sure why there is such an obsession about this
particular album. As far as I know right now there are two books on
the making of this album - plus it sort of looked upon as the
greatest jazz album ever. I don't think the hype is from the
artist's corner but more from what one can call 'popular media or
culture.'
The one album I think is truly a masterpiece is Cannonball Addley's
(spelling is surely wrong, sorry) 'Something Else' The album was
recorded around the same time as 'Kind of Blue' with pretty much the
same lineup (except for Coltrane). That collectiion I find is a much
stronger piece of work.
Also I prefer 'Milestones.' But again, I am not saying that 'Kind of
Blue' is bad - it is for sure a good album.
- --
Tosh Berman
TamTam Books
http://www.tamtambooks.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 12:15:00 -0400
From: mwoodwor <mwoodwor@is2.dal.ca>
Subject: Previte
Um - quite a few of you have been singing the praises of Bobby Previte
lately (justifiably so) but no one responded to my enquiry about his new Bump
the Renaisance release...has no one out there in Zorn land heard it yet?
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 11:10:34 -0500
From: "Sean Westergaard" <seawes@allmusic.com>
Subject: RE: Previte
i just played a tune from it on my radio show this morning that was really
nice, but that's all i've heard. Ray Anderson, Marty Ehrlich, Wayne Horvitz
(piano), Bobby and I'm spacing on the bass player. solid line-up, atrocious
cover art.
sean
- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-zorn-list@lists.xmission.com
[mailto:owner-zorn-list@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of mwoodwor
Sent: Friday, February 08, 2002 11:15 AM
To: zorn-list@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Previte
Um - quite a few of you have been singing the praises of Bobby Previte
lately (justifiably so) but no one responded to my enquiry about his new
Bump
the Renaisance release...has no one out there in Zorn land heard it yet?
- -
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 18:32:33 +0100 (CET)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Efr=E9n=20del=20Valle?= <efrendv@yahoo.es>
Subject: Christian Wolff again
Hi,
I asked about this record a while ago without success.
IÆm referring to Christian WolffÆs Tzadik release,
which is supposed to be here within the next few
weeks. I think it was a December or November 2001
release and it featured, among others, Fred Frith and
William Winant. I donÆt recall the title but I think
itÆs his only Tzadik release to date.
Any thoughts?
Thanks in advance.
Best regards,
EfrΘn del Valle
_______________________________________________________________
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- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 19:14:13 +0100
From: "Remco Takken" <r.takken@planet.nl>
Subject: Re: Jazz Death?
> AMM have specifically denied being jazz, in the liner notes for "To Hear
Not everyone says the same as to how he acts (grammar?). I might state here,
that I am not responding to a message on the Zorn list for instance. Is this
automatically true?
> hindsight, especially in defining important formal innovations, but can
> anyone out there tell me they're hearing the equivalent of Coltrane, or
> Parker, or Ellington, out there?
I don't think it would be a very relaxed point of departure when trying to
be interested in new music. To me, being part of something in the now, is as
least as important, as finding out about great music that's still unknown. I
believe there are very many older listeners out there, who have enjoyed the
greatest jazz in the world, without seeing Coltran, Parker or Ellington
live. So in my times, I am not to worried about missing the big thing.
I feel great being a witness of the creation of great new stuff by Uri
Caine, John Zorn, Michael Moore, Chris Speed/Jim Black/Brad Shepik/Skuli
Sverrisson, Rova sax 4tet, Paolo Angeli.
Also, along the way I enjoyed new stuff by The Necks, Jorrit Dijkstra/
Talking Pictures, Godspeed (I wouldn't call that jazz btw).
> Maybe this boils down to not wanting to kick myself for passing up some
> genius when they pass through San Francisco and play for 30 people in a
> living room.
>
I absolutely can't se the problem in that. Ask the guy a question! Most of
the times, concerts like these just stick, as opposed to sponsored
non-events like North Sea Jazz, where hundreds are talking right through
Yusef Lateef's acoustic solo flute improvisations.
Regards, Remco
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 18:56:46 +0100
From: "Remco Takken" <r.takken@planet.nl>
Subject: Re: Sick of Miles
>
> I hate some attitudes by people who MUST adore a
> specific artist because he/she is considered an icon.
> I have never done it and will never do it- although I
> put my "integrity" at risk.
I go along with Efren: I actually think it's OK, and strong to be careful to
not fall in the trap of the endless feedback/ repeating/ re-hashing of
praise by both lazy journalists and listeners.
I remember so many people being dissappointed by holy grails like Pet
Sounds, Sgt Pepper, The Sermon, Mingus Ah Um, Speechless or Ascension. We
are not all musicologists.
Some friends of mine (now in their forties) still dismiss Zappa's Studio
Tan/ Sleep Dirt/ Orchestral Favorites, because Zappa ranted along about the
legitimacy of those Warner Bros titles. Obviously, they missed out on some
new info, but worse: they didn't check out the thing itself (which is,
ofcourse, a truncated version of Zappa's Lather box set)
Skip says somewhere that 'not wanting to like stuff' reminded him of himself
at seventeen, I can see that, but there's more, I feel. Ofcourse, it also
remind me of *MYSELF*. Would you believe I heard Paul Simon's Graceland for
the first time... yesterday! I refused to go into that from 1986 on. I think
it's cool, and yes, Simon made the bucks with stuff Laswell was striving for
for some years already. It's still a good record, I will play it more often
from now on...
Remco Takken
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 10:42:14 -0800 (PST)
From: jason tors <jasontors@yahoo.com>
Subject: [yawn]radical jewish series
(I was particularly shocked by
> Mark Feldman) but some fresh air would be very welcome on the Series.
> This is really, really subjective. The boredom factor can be too
> conditioning.
I totally agree, I have been passing over the radical jewish series,
the most surprising release so far has been jamie saft's sovlanut.
Another nice one was the jennifer charles/oren - la mar enfortuna but
it didnt stand the test of time.
__________________________________________________
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Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
http://greetings.yahoo.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 11:00:20 -0800
From: Fred Heller <velaires@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Zorn as Miles????????
on 2/6/02 2:11 PM, Efr=E9n del Valle at efrendv@yahoo.es wrote:
> Arguments about the importance that MIles Davis has for me
We're not talking about Miles' importance to you. We're talking about his
general importance. Big difference.
skip h
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 19:11:10 +0000
From: "thomas chatterton" <chatterton23@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Zorn as Miles????????
>From: EfrΘn del Valle <efrendv@yahoo.es>
>Miles' work never made a dent on me, he just leaves me absolutely cold.
>What really annoys me is the fact that he seems to be untouchable whereas
>everyone, EVERYONE who make their work public are subject to possible
>negative criticism.
Well, Miles certainly isn't untouchable, from working in music retail
(mainly jazz oriented) for many years, I've had to listen to lots of
negative criticism about the 'Dark Prince': the old guys who liked him until
he went electric, the younger guys who only like the electric stuff (and
even then some of them only like the '80s comeback material), the 'outside'
people who figure he's too MOR, the technicians who claim he can't even play
his instrument, in fact I think Miles get dissed more than any other player
at that level. Personally, I have absolutely no use for his post '75
catalog, but he's certainly one of my favourite musicians, I'm still
listening and enjoying some of his records 30 years after I first heard
them. If you don't like him, you don't need to prove the point, after all
it's completely subjective. Better to be honest in your tastes, than to
pretend you dig something just because the critics say it's hip, I've been
through that personally with some of the more 'outside' players, and I see
the effect where people with positions of power in the business (like
festival programmers) can actually end up defining and dictating their
audience's tastes, a dangerous and ludicrous situation for an art form that
claims to be so 'open' and...'free(?)'
_________________________________________________________________
Join the worldÆs largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
http://www.hotmail.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 14:16:52 -0500
From: Rick Lopez <bb10k@velocity.net>
Subject: Re: Zorn as Miles????????
on 02.02.08 2:11 PM, thomas chatterton at chatterton23@hotmail.com wrote:
> it's completely subjective. Better to be honest in your tastes, than to
> pretend you dig something just because the critics say it's hip, I've been
> through that personally with some of the more 'outside' players
You know what's horrible? I've never gone to Coltrane. I mean I've been
nearly everywhere else, but JC has always left me cold, wanting to hear
something else... never got to Sun Ra either... Weird, huh?
What the *hell* is wrong with me???
Best,
RL
- ----------
[ All of the below and much more at: http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k ]
Sessionographies :
CRISPELL; IBARRA; Wm. PARKER; RIVERS; SHIPP; D.S. WARE.
Discographies :
COURVOISIER; ENEIDI; MANERI; MORRIS; SPEARMAN; THREADGILL; WORKMAN.
Samuel Beckett Eulogy; Baseball & the 10,000 Things; Time Stops; LOVETORN;
HARD BOIL; LUCILLE, a Reverential Journal of the Care of the Beloved Hag;
ETC.,
- ----------
*** THINGS 4 SALE *** [Updated: 01.12.01]
http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k/ChipsInCashing.html
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 11:20:41 -0800
From: "carlos torres" <nipomoone@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Fwd: RE: Zorn as Miles????????
>I too think 'Kind of Blue' is slightly overrated. A very good album
>but I am not sure why there is such an obsession about this
>particular album.
one thing that i always wonder is how serious jazz fans can call this album
the "best jazz album EVER." to say such a thing is like saying jazz was
simply a musical time period that has since stopped and we can examine in
retrospect.
_________________________________________________________________
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http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 11:25:16 -0800
From: "s~Z" <keithmar@msn.com>
Subject: Re: Zorn as Miles????????
>>>What the *hell* is wrong with me???<<<
Had I not seen Sun Ra *live* 6 times, I might not have gone there
either. No recording even comes close.
Regarding Coltrane, something *terrible* is wrong with you.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 11:39:39 -0800 (PST)
From: Ryan Novak <ryan_novak@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Luttenbachers again / 'New York is Now' book
>unbelievably, an article on Weasel Walter and the
>recently discussed-here
>Flying Luttenbachers in the recent issue of Jazziz.
>Not only is it possibly
>the first non-pejorative mention I have ever seen of
>death metal in a
>magazine like this (hooray, somebody's got his ears
>open!), there are some
>interesting quotes about the sometime-predictability
>of improv today, even
>by such acknowledged masters as Lovens, Gustafsson,
>etc.
Maybe if Lovens and Gustafsson wore more stage makeup,
Weasel wouldn't consider them as predictable. I
dunno, he's right to take a jab at some of these guys,
because there really is a kiss-ass community
surrounding them for the most part that doesn't
exactly challenge them, but Weasel's visions are also
a bit narrow- he's energy and seemingly nothing but
(and it just drives home the point that he calls
Vandermark "smooth jazz" because he does any slow
tunes at all). Weasel probably takes more than his
fair share of criticism himself, but what do you
expect when you say you want to shoot Rosie O'Donnel
and every album he does is promoted with ridiculous
hyperbole. Talk about predictable- which album was
the one where free jazz was killed? Which was the one
where the destruction of the human race was begun?
- ---Ryan Novak
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
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- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 12:03:49 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Subject: Re: Fwd: RE: Zorn as Miles????????
On Fri, 08 Feb 2002 11:20:41 -0800 "carlos torres" wrote:
>
> >I too think 'Kind of Blue' is slightly overrated. A very good album
> >but I am not sure why there is such an obsession about this
> >particular album.
>
>
> one thing that i always wonder is how serious jazz fans can call this album
> the "best jazz album EVER." to say such a thing is like saying jazz was
> simply a musical time period that has since stopped and we can examine in
> retrospect.
You are very lucky to have metaphysical problems that can be solved so
easily. Here is the answer to your everlasting quest:
If you ask jazz fans what unique record they would keep if
they had to make such a choice, what whould they choose?
Many will say: KIND OF BLUE. Now free to you to dismiss these jazz fans as
non-serious.
Great compositions, great playing, perfect timing, what is missing to make
this record a good contender to "best jazz album EVER" in your mind?
Patrice.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 15:22:21 -0500
From: "Zachary Steiner" <zsteiner@butler.edu>
Subject: RE: Fwd: RE: Zorn as Miles????????
>> Great compositions, great playing, perfect timing, what is missing to
make this record a good contender to "best jazz album EVER" in your
mind?
I think the compositions are lacking, IMHO. The compositions sound like
they are meant to not be heard, which does a great disservice to these
great players that normally command one's attention. The playing is
superb, I will give you that. I was blown away when I looked the
transcriptions of the sax solos (both Coltrane and Adderly). Though, I
think all involved have done playing that has been the equal to even
superior to the playing on this album, but in a more interesting
setting. I can say that for Coltrane and Miles. My knowledge of
Cannonball, Bill Evans, et al is lacking, so I'll be quiet now.
Zach
- -
------------------------------
End of Zorn List Digest V3 #762
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