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From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest) To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: Zorn List Digest V3 #763 Reply-To: zorn-list Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Zorn List Digest Friday, February 8 2002 Volume 03 : Number 763 In this issue: - Re: Zorn as Miles???????? brian olewnick's musings/boring old masada boring old miles Miles Time and words Re: boring old miles RE: boring old miles RE: dick hyman RE: alasnoaxis zornlist death, bump, sun ra AMM, Miles, Previte & nostalgia ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 15:27:55 EST From: Samerivertwice@aol.com Subject: Re: Zorn as Miles???????? - --part1_175.3489829.29958ecb_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Since we seem to be in the cyber confessional, I haven't been able to get into Sonny Rollins. I own maybe ten of his CDs and I never ever crave a single one. I pull them out periodically to see if my ears are ready for him but they never seem to be. Seeing him live did little to help. Tom NP: The Complete Blue Note Recordings of Herbie Nichols, Disc One In a message dated 2/8/02 2:19:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, bb10k@velocity.net writes: > You know what's horrible? I've never gone to Coltrane. I mean I've been > nearly everywhere else, but JC has always left me cold, wanting to hear > something else... never got to Sun Ra either... Weird, huh? > > What the *hell* is wrong with me??? > > Best, > RL > ______________________________________________________________________ Phil Spector: "I've been listening to a lot of Andrew Lloyd Webber lately, and enjoying it. Someday I hope to set his stuff to music." - --part1_175.3489829.29958ecb_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <HTML>Since we seem to be in the cyber confessional, I haven't been able to get into Sonny Rollins. I own maybe ten of his CDs and I never ever crave a single one. I pull them out periodically to see if my ears are ready for him but they never seem to be. Seeing him live did little to help. Tom NP: The Complete Blue Note Recordings of Herbie Nichols, Disc One In a message dated 2/8/02 2:19:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, bb10k@velocity.net writes: <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">You know what's horrible? I've never gone to Coltrane. I mean I've been nearly everywhere else, but JC has always left me cold, wanting to hear something else... never got to Sun Ra either... Weird, huh? What the *hell* is wrong with me??? Best, RL </BLOCKQUOTE> ______________________________________________________________________ Phil Spector: "I've been listening to a lot of Andrew Lloyd Webber lately, and enjoying it. Someday I hope to set his stuff to music."</HTML> - --part1_175.3489829.29958ecb_boundary-- - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 20:43:41 +0000 From: "Kurt Gottschalk" <ecstasymule@hotmail.com> Subject: brian olewnick's musings/boring old masada as an afterthought ... i, too, saw chamber masada at victo last year, a set brian'o called predictable. for me it was nothing but. i always enjoy the masadas, but often pass them by, thinking i already know what they're up to. thus i hadn't seen the group in a while prior to the victo matinee. i thought it was great. really high energy. much harder playing than i anticipated, or than is reflected on record. i'm not sure the world needs more masada discs, but a live chamber would be a good idea. a solo guitar masada record by tim sparks would be a better idea. kg _________________________________________________________________ Join the worldÆs largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 20:47:57 +0000 From: "Kurt Gottschalk" <ecstasymule@hotmail.com> Subject: boring old miles in an effort to get the talk off of m'davis, whose yet to floor me, here's 2 proposed threads: what records have best stood the test of time? not just the best records, but the ones that retain they're freshness. i was listening to 'the big gundown' the other day, and was amazed at how alive it still is. what instrumentalists use words the best? (it's the writer in me.) i nominate threadgill and tim berne as best at naming records/compositions/bands. ok. kurt _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 21:52:19 +0100 From: duncan youngerman <y-man@wanadoo.fr> Subject: Miles Some people on the list mention not being very interested or convinced by Miles. Hey, that's fine! May I suggest checking out a couple rarely mentioned albums? - -"Live at the Plugged Nickel" (live, 1965, with Shorter, Tony Williams, Hancock, Carter at their burningest...real hot and inspired). - -"On the Corner" (studio, 1972, with McLaughlin, Cobham, Corea, etc...also red hot and inspired, but while the first album is pure jazz, this, y'all, is nasty, eclectic psycho-fonk). I think the reason "Kind of Blue" (like "In a Silent Way") is so popular is that it has a consensual quality: it does'nt scare away non-jazz heads; it stays open, in a way that Satie's "Gymnopedies" also does. In that sense it's the ultimate anti-bebop statement. It does'nt jump at you with a million tormented riffs. And that is what was also revolutionary to the connaisseurs: it brought about a radical simplification in the approach to improvisation. No longer based on embellished melody, no longer based on rapidly moving arpeggios connected to chord changes, this was about the colors of the modes, or scales, developped freely within a looser, wider framework. More about the senses than about some tune, or some guy's chops (although there was plenty of that as well). Think of Matisse's way of laying this red all over the background of a painting, or cutting and pasting figures out of pure blue paper. Less is More. I think he searched for radical simplicity all his life and found it in a different way with the James Brown-influenced electric works (68-75): no more chord changes, more music! Best, DY. - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 15:11:44 -0600 From: Robert Pleshar <rpleshar@midway.uchicago.edu> Subject: Time and words As for words, I've got to agree on Threadgill, I love his titles and even like the poems in some of the CD booklets and record sleeves. I also like some of Philip Johnston's titles and I've always enjoyed the Boredoms fractured english titles. Records that stand the test of time. I'm going with Threadgill's sextet records, specifically "Subject to Change" and "You Know the Number" I think are both really wonderful and sound like they could have been made any time in the past 30 years and I keep digging little nuances out of them whenever I listen to them. I'll also pick "Locus Solus" (Zorn), "Double Nickels on the Dime" (Minutemen) and "Night of the Purple Moon" (Sun Ra) for starters. Rob Quoting Kurt Gottschalk <ecstasymule@hotmail.com>: > > > in an effort to get the talk off of m'davis, whose yet to floor me, here's 2 > > proposed threads: > > what records have best stood the test of time? not just the best records, > but the ones that retain they're freshness. i was listening to 'the big > gundown' the other day, and was amazed at how alive it still is. > > what instrumentalists use words the best? (it's the writer in me.) i > nominate threadgill and tim berne as best at naming > records/compositions/bands. > > ok. > > kurt > > _________________________________________________________________ > Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com > > > - > - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 13:16:04 -0800 From: Fred Heller <velaires@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: boring old miles on 2/8/02 12:47 PM, Kurt Gottschalk at ecstasymule@hotmail.com wrote: > what records have best stood the test of time? not just the best records, > but the ones that retain they're freshness. i was listening to 'the big > gundown' the other day, and was amazed at how alive it still is. "In A Mist" -- Bix Beiderbecke "Tonk" -- Ellington/Strayhorn piano duet "Parker's Mood" -- Charlie Parker Bill Frisell -- This Land Curtis Mayfield -- Superfly Johnny Guitar Watson -- any of the 50s stuff Miles Davis -- Milestones anything by the 60s Monk quartet with Rouse Revolver -- The Beatles "Don't Let It Be In Vain" -- The 5 Royales "Port Of Call" -- Cecil Taylor John Zorn -- Spillane anything by Bill Monroe with either Earl Scruggs or Jimmy Martin on it the Ray Charles Atlantic catalog en toto the Burt Bacharach Dionne records Pet Sounds -- The Beach Boys "Beautfiful Moons Ago" -- the King Cole Trio Joe Henderson -- any of his 60s stuff Sonny Rollins -- Saxophone Colossus anything Muddy Waters cut his first five years on Chess ditto for Howlin' Wolf and Little Walter Charles Ives 4th Symphony (espec the Tilson-Thomas recording, for my tastes) either Glenn Gould recording of the Goldberg Variations anything by Nervous Norvous Entertainment! -- Gang Of Four anything by the Minutemen anything by X Fire Of Love -- Gun Club any RCA Victor Spkike Jones One Size Fits All -- Zappa Rip, Rig, & Panic -- Roland Kirk One Great Day -- Ellery Eskelin any record with Joey Baron Herbie Hancock -- The Prisoner > > what instrumentalists use words the best? (it's the writer in me.) i > nominate threadgill and tim berne as best at naming > records/compositions/bands. Zappa and Carla Bley are my personal favorite namers of things skip h - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 16:16:39 -0500 From: "Zachary Steiner" <zsteiner@butler.edu> Subject: RE: boring old miles > what instrumentalists use words the best? (it's the writer in me.) i > nominate threadgill and tim berne as best at naming > records/compositions/bands. My vote would go to Ornette Coleman... Zach - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 16:34:05 -0500 From: "Steve Smith" <ssmith36@sprynet.com> Subject: RE: dick hyman Hyman also runs an enjoyable, important and undervalued series here in New York at the 92nd Street Y every July, providing a much needed and welcome showcase for traditional jazz musicians old and new (the Vaches, Harry Allen, Scotts Hamilton and Robinson, etc.), who are actually much less welcome in the nightclubs than you might think. Steve Smith ssmith36@sprynet.com NP - Curlew, "Cold Ride," 'Meet the Curlews' (Cuneiform) - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 16:37:18 -0500 From: "Steve Smith" <ssmith36@sprynet.com> Subject: RE: alasnoaxis Precisely the show to which I was referring. That's the only time I've seen Pain Killer, actually. Steve Smith ssmith36@sprynet.com NP - Curlew, "Cold Ride," 'Meet the Curlews' (Cuneiform) - -----Original Message----- From: Patrice L. Roussel [mailto:proussel@ichips.intel.com] Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 2:57 PM On Tue, 05 Feb 2002 18:43:33 -0500 ssmith36@sprynet.com wrote: > > >On the other side, I kind of like him in contexts where he is a guest (like > >with Laswell, of a great Painkiller show at the KF). > > Was that the show where part of his solo was sticking the end of the guitar > chord in his mouth? The one where Mick Harris tried to get Lee Dorrian to > come up out of the audience and join them \\\"for old times\\\' sake,\\\" to > no avail? I don' think so. The concert I attended was the one part of the 40th birthday month at the KF. - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 13:49:13 -0800 From: mwisckol@ocregister.com Subject: zornlist death, bump, sun ra Lester Bangs once wrote something to the effect of, "How can people listen to Eric Dolphy, when he has that ridiculous bump on his forehead?" In context, this apparently meant to chastise the poseurs who thought they were doing the hip thing by following Dolphy. In fact, it was not a judgement at all on Dolphy, who I think Bangs dug.... >>Zachary Steiner, a Kind of Blue naysayer, wrote: I was blown away when I looked the transcriptions of the sax solos (both Coltrane and Adderly)<< I've sometimes found seeing John Cage's scores more interesting than hearing them played, but Coltrane and Cannonball?! I feel dizzy. There is a ridiculous bump growing on my forehead. I long to see the bebop progressions Miles famously wrote on matchbook covers in nightclubs after he first arrived in New York. Or is it just the decline of the zornlist, this limp wristed chucking of mud we read day-in and day-out now? Martin p.s. Previte's Bump was received here with considerable anticipation, given the players and given my affection for Weather Clear, Track Fast. It has now been set aside with some disappointment. Not a BAD CD, just nothing very memorable to these ears. Maybe if I could see the transcriptions.... p.p.s agreed, sun ra was so much a live phenomenon. mindblowing.transcendental even, occasionally. the recordings are approximations.... . - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 16:52:32 -0500 From: "Alan Kayser" <alankayser@hotmail.com> Subject: AMM, Miles, Previte & nostalgia William York wrote "Hmmm, I saw AMM last year, and only owning a couple of their discs, they did pretty much exactly what I expected. " Yes, AMM has, IMHO, become somewhat predictable. I guess being together as a trio for 20 years can do this to even the most unpredictable of musicians. I suppose this is one reason why freely improvising musicians don't stay in one setting for too long, other than AMM and the Schlippenbach Trio. The ST has lasted some 30 years, and seems to be going stronger than ever (see their latest, the great Swingin the Bim on FMP). But, again IMHO, AMM has immersed themselves in this somewhat trance like music. Perhaps that's the point, but I miss the excitement that comes through on recordings like Laminal, Allentown, etc. ********************************* Zachary Steiner wrote... "Kind of Blue was the second Miles album that I bought. Birth of the Cool was the first ( I liked it b/c I was into Gerry Mulligan at the time). I turned Kind of Blue and on expected to be blown away having heard the hype. What did I hear? Elevator music!" Oh, man. It's time to get away from the Zorn list. Seriously...elevator music? You somewhat redeemed yourself with the Bitches Brew statement. As for BB, that was the first Miles I ever bought. Followed closely by Tony Williams Lifetime "Emergency." I remember thinking, having previously thought Cream and Hendrix were IT (this was in the late 60s for all you young dudes), WHAT IS THIS!!! Nothing has come close to the impact on me as those two had way back when (with the possible exception of the first Weather Report). I suppose that records like these are steeped in nostalgia, perhaps the younger generation cannot understand the impact, much like hearing the Hot Fives, Charlie Parker, Love Supreme, or even The Beatles for that matter. You kinda had to be there. So I understand your lack of interest in Kind of Blue. Just try to listen to it has a groundbreaker, much as In a Silent Way, BB, or Sgt. Pepper. One thing to remember about KoB is that it is the #1 selling jazz album of all time. I dare say lots of those LPs/CDs etc are owned by people who don't own another jazz recording. Why this one? Because everyone says it's the best of all time. I agree that it is a classic, but it's not the Miles I reach for; from that period I prefer Milestones and Round About Midnight. Just as I wouldn't go first for A Love Supreme, and prefer the Village Vanguard sets. ******************************************* mwoowor wrote "Um - quite a few of you have been singing the praises of Bobby Previte lately (justifiably so) but no one responded to my enquiry about his new Bump the Renaisance release...has no one out there in Zorn land heard it y" That's because the official release date has been delayed. *************************************** And finally, to Marcin: I find Uri Caine and Bobby Previte to be as interesting as anyone on the current scene, including JZ. Bobby, like Zorn, has juggled many bands, some at the same time. He's had Bump the Renaissance as his sort of straight ahead jazz group, Weather Clear Track Fast I'd term nu-bop, Empty Suits as "world", Latin for Travelers is his rockin bar band, Ponga is, well, not easy to categorize, and a few ad hocs added on. His dynamite The Horse is still sadly unreleased. The bands are great, the compositions quite strong. Anyone who was there for his 3 day anniversary celebration at the KF will attest to his diverse talents. Enough Alan Kayser William York wrote "Hmmm, I saw AMM last year, and only owning a couple of their discs, they did pretty much exactly what I expected. " Yes, AMM has, IMHO, become somewhat predictable. I guess being together as a trio for 20 years can do this to even the most unpredictable of musicians. I suppose this is one reason why freely improvising musicians don't stay in one setting for too long, other than AMM and the Schlippenbach Trio. The ST has lasted some 30 years, and seems to be going stronger than ever (see their latest, the great Swingin the Bim on FMP). But, again IMHO, AMM has imersed themselves in this somewhat trance like music. Perhaps that's the point, but I miss the excitement that comes through on recordings like Laminal, Allentown, etc. Zachary Steiner wrote... "Kind of Blue was the second Miles album that I bought. Birth of the Cool was the first ( I liked it b/c I was into Gerry Mulligan at the time). I turned Kind of Blue and on expected to be blown away having heard the hype. What did I hear? Elevator music!" Oh, man. It's time to get away from the Zorn list. Seriously...elevator music? You somewhat redeemed yourself with the Bitches Brew statement, so I guess you weren't crazed for too long. As for BB, that was the first Miles I ever bought. Followed closely by Tony Williams Lifetime "Emergency." I remember thinking, having previously thought Cream and Hendrix were IT (this was in the late 60s for all you young dudes), WHAT IS THIS!!! Nothing has come close to the impact on me as those two had way back when (with the possible exception of the first Weather Report). I suppose that records like these are steeped in nostalgia, perhaps the younger generation cannot understand the impact, much like hearing the Hot Fives, Charlie Parker, Love Supreme, or even The Beatles for that matter. You kinda had to be there. So I understand your lack of interest in Kind of Blue. Just try to listen to it has a groundbreaker, much as In a Silent Way, BB, or Sgt. Pepper. _________________________________________________________________ Join the worldÆs largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com - - ------------------------------ End of Zorn List Digest V3 #763 ******************************* To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to "majordomo@lists.xmission.com" with "unsubscribe zorn-list-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. 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