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Zorn List Digest       Friday, February 8 2002       Volume 03 : Number 761



In this issue:
-
       Re: Re. Jazz Death
       Re: Re. Jazz Death
       Re: Re. Jazz Death
       Re: Re. Jazz Death
       Jazz death: sweatin' to the oldies
       jazz vs. amm
       Luttenbachers again / 'New York is Now' book
       Re: (spell that, please)
       Re: Zorn as Miles????????
       Re: Re. Jazz Death--I detect misanthropy
       =?Windows-1252?Q?Susie_Ibarra/Roberto_Rodr=EDguez?=
       RE: Zorn as Miles????????
       Re: OT: saul williams / www.massmag.com
       rejazzdeath/satoko fuji

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 22:35:26 -0500
From: "Brian Olewnick" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Re. Jazz Death

> Honestly, Brian, I think you're complaining that nobody's reinventing the
> wheel.

:-) Actually, I thought I was complaining that _too many_ people are trying
to reinvent the wheel! I wish they'd try inventing something else.

Brian Olewnick


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 14:49:52 +1100
From: "Julian" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Re. Jazz Death

Refreshingly, there are many people though these days who are just getting
together and playing some good music. Bobby Previte or Peter Epstein for
example have done some amazing and interesting albums, but they didn't
reinvent anything, or attempt to for that matter... is there a problem with
that?

> :-) Actually, I thought I was complaining that _too many_ people are
trying
> to reinvent the wheel! I wish they'd try inventing something else.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 20:42:09 -0800
From: Skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Re. Jazz Death

> From: "Julian" <[e-mail]>
> Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 14:49:52 +1100
> To: "Brian Olewnick" <[e-mail]>, "Zorn List"
> <[e-mail]>
> Subject: Re: Re. Jazz Death
>
> Refreshingly, there are many people though these days who are just getting
> together and playing some good music. Bobby Previte or Peter Epstein for
> example have done some amazing and interesting albums, but they didn't
> reinvent anything, or attempt to for that matter... is there a problem with
> that?

There f**king shouldn't be.

skip h


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 20:53:17 -0800
From: Skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Re. Jazz Death

> From: "Julian" <[e-mail]>
> Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 14:49:52 +1100
> To: "Brian Olewnick" <[e-mail]>, "Zorn List"
> <[e-mail]>
> Subject: Re: Re. Jazz Death
>
>> :-) Actually, I thought I was complaining that _too many_ people are
> trying
>> to reinvent the wheel! I wish they'd try inventing something else.

The wheel is still functioning quite well, though.  The wheel is far from
dead and archaic.  And the same can be said for any vehicle of expression in
which people are developing a voice.  Whether or not we think they are
doesn't matter.  As long as they think they are, and their constituency (no
matter how small) agrees, it endures.  There are people right now, as we
speak, hearing Diana Krall play in the King Cole trio style.  She doesn't
have that style perfected yet, she's still developing within it, and so much
of that audience has never had exposure to that style, so to them it's a new
experience.  It might not be the experience we're choosing (although I think
she's just fine for that sort of entertainment), but there are a lot of
people choosing it and opening their ears to improvising through it, even if
they don't wind up buying works that the cognescenti deem somehow more
challenging.    It's fresh and exciting for them.  Anything that stays fresh
and exciting and develops a new listenership -- be it hip-hop, punk rock,
modern music etc -- is in good shape, because it's layers seem to be staying
somehow alive.  If you have a Zorn layer or an Uri layer or whatever, you
need a surface layer, and Diana Krall records are fine for that.  And,
funnily enough, I think the Krall phenom is a healthy thing, because it
breeds new reactions and opposition, and that always leads to activity.
Plus there is the inevitable small percent of Krall consumers who will want
to get to the next layers, and it leads to a lot of the stuff we're talking
about here (and I say this because my iin to to jazz was a singing piano
player who addressed my rock/blues/country sensibilities-- Mose Allison).

Besides, she's much more physically appealing to me than Wynton.

skip h


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 21:02:06 -0800
From: Chris Selvig <[e-mail]>
Subject: Jazz death: sweatin' to the oldies

"Yeah, if sweating automatically equated to good music, you'd have a
point." - I bet the fat guy in Blues Traveler sweats quite a bit.


Chris Selvig


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 06:19:47
From: "William York" <[e-mail]>
Subject: jazz vs. amm

>When I go hear AMM or Otomo, I have no really good idea (except in a
> >general way) what I'm going to get. With Masada (or Wynton or William
> >Parker or Louis Belogenis, etc.) I know, within a few granules, >exactly
>what to expect. This doesn't interest me.

Hmmm, I saw AMM last year, and only owning a couple of their discs, they did
pretty much exactly what I expected. I saw Masada around the same time --
maybe six months earlier -- and only owning a couple of discs by them as
well, I thought it was much more surprising and exciting (among other
things). And I am not the world's biggest Masada fan. I guess it depends on
what you are listening for or tuned into.

By the way, there is a REALLY good (and funny) review of AMM's Tunes Without
Measure Or End written by (I think) z-list member Nick Cain here:
http://www.info.net.nz/opprobrium/html/online/2/reviews/e2_reviewsA.html

Nice work -- good to see someone at least putting a little pin-prick into
this bubble ...



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- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 06:25:35
From: "William York" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Luttenbachers again / 'New York is Now' book

In reference to my last post ... Speaking of jazz writers "shaking things
up" (not that you are strictly a "jazz writer" Mr. Cain), there is, somewhat
unbelievably, an article on Weasel Walter and the recently discussed-here
Flying Luttenbachers in the recent issue of Jazziz. Not only is it possibly
the first non-pejorative mention I have ever seen of death metal in a
magazine like this (hooray, somebody's got his ears open!), there are some
interesting quotes about the sometime-predictability of improv today, even
by such acknowledged masters as Lovens, Gustafsson, etc.

So, I am wondering, since this article is written by Phil Freeman -- who I
had originally dismissed b/c of all the slams directed at his book "New York
is Now" -- is this book worthwhile? From what I hear there is a lot of
Zorn-bashing and stuff like that, but anyway, has anyone here read it? if
so, thoughts/comments???

Thanks,

WY

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- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 00:39:59 -0600
From: Herb Levy <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (spell that, please)

Skip probably meant to write:

contemporaneity


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 23:11:00 +0100
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Efr=E9n_del_Valle?= <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn as Miles????????

Hi,

Arguments about the importance that MIles Davis has for me have become a
constant during the last few months and the Z-list could be no exception as
I see.

>I think your
> statement is a bit too Miles-friendly or perhaps nostalgic.

>What's wrong with looking to the past for precedent and inspiration?
There's
>a huge difference between that and nostalgia.

Skip, my message clearly says that everyone looks back either for
inspiration or just for enjoyment. It's obvious and unavoidable. Everything
is the results of previous influence, no doubt. You didn't discover
electricity now.

> It depends on your personal taste, but "Spillane" or "Elegy"
> mean much more to me than any of the records you mention.

>Maybe to you.  But to the bulk of jazz-oriented musicians and beyond, KIND
>OF BLUE is an extremely important thing.  In jazz, only A LOVE SUPREME
seems
>to get the same universal influence vote from players in every school.

Needless to say and as I mentioned in my previous e-mail, I can objectively
understand the importance that those recordings have in the jazz world and
accept it. "A Love Supreme" is certainly one of my favorite albums ever, but
Miles' work never made a dent on me, he just leaves me absolutely cold.
What really annoys me is the fact that he seems to be untouchable whereas
everyone, EVERYONE who make their work public are subject to possible
negative criticism. And Miles Davis shouldn't be exempt of sincere
"attacks". Ok, he's an icon, but I don't like him. Such an open-minded list
shouldn't be so surprised, IMHO. i won't pull out a gun if someone hates
Zorn.

I understand they
> are important for many people, and going against Miles has "come rather
> expensive" to me, so to speak. Maybe my age prevents me from enjoying
those
> titles in all their supposed immensity, but IMHO, Miles had his time, and
> now's the time for something else.

>Miles' time is far from over.  People are still dealing with his work and
>its influence.  John Zorn would probably be the first guy to slap you silly
>for saying that Miles' -- or any great artist's -- "time is over and now's
>the time for something else".

I don't think I'm silly. I just don't like Miles Davis. Is it so hard to
understand? I just meant that comparing Zorn to Davis is absurd, IMO. Zorn
has his own idosincracy and, it goes without saying, his own "momentum". His
influences outside the music world are uncomparable to those of Davis.


> Of course, I don't expect anyone of any
> future generations to produce another "Spillane", because it's supposed to
> be unique. And, of course, I also look back when purchasing or just
> listening to music, but your comments seem to me a little "anchored in the
> past" .
>
>You can't anchor in the present, because it's moving, and you can't anchor
>to the future, because it's never here yet.

Obviousness?? Thanks, Skip, but I'm not so stupid.

 Zorn obviously understood this
when he designed SPILLANE, which is based on the Mike Hammer novels up to
about 1961.  History is different than antiquity.  Ya damn kid!


"Damn Kid!" doesn't sound really good, does it? Revealing my age seems to
have been a mistake. NOw I don't have the right to speak anymore!

EfrΘn del Valle
a.e: Radiohead: "KID A" (of course, kid)

skip h
NP: Cannonball Adderley: RADIO NIGHTS (amazing)


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Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 07:27:10 -0500
From: Mike Chamberlain <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Re. Jazz Death--I detect misanthropy

on 2/7/02 11:53 PM, Skip Heller at [e-mail] wrote:


> Besides, she's much more physically appealing to me than Wynton.
>
Misanthropist!  Misanthropist!

- --Mike


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 22:35:53 +0100
From: =?Windows-1252?Q?Efr=E9n_del_Valle?= <[e-mail]>
Subject: =?Windows-1252?Q?Susie_Ibarra/Roberto_Rodr=EDguez?=

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------=_NextPart_000_00A6_01C1B027.CD65D2A0
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,

A couple of days ago I purchased Susie Ibarra's "Songbird Suite" and I'd =
say it's a nice album but absolutely nothing out of this earth. IMHO, =
it's something right inbetween her first trio effort "Radiance" and =
"Flower After Flower", sometimes really laid back and somehow disperse =
as the latter, and at times going into wild improvisations in which I'd =
highlight Jennifer Choi's work on violin. Ikue Mori's contributions are =
for me pretty dispensable. Even Ibarra's playing didn't hook me up this =
time; I find her a bit restrained although there is a good percussion =
solo, "Trance N.1", and of course some other remarkable spots, but all =
in all not as dynamic as I'd expected.

BTW, someone told me she'd be in Barcelona to present a new recording =
with Derek Bailey. Anyone knows about that supposed new album? I just =
know about "Daedal". That would confirm the validity of the information =
a bit.

With regards to "El Danz=F3n de Mois=E9s", I'm not as wild about it as =
someone else on the list some days ago. It's certainly a beautiful album =
but perhaps after purchasing maybe 20 Radical Jewish Culture releases =
I've grown a bit tired of the "same" melodies over and over again. IMO, =
the execution is superb (I was particularly shocked by Mark Feldman) but =
some fresh air would be very welcome on the Series. This is really, =
really subjective. The boredom factor can be too conditioning.

Best,

Efr=E9n del Valle
n.p: Tsahar/Ragin/Kowald/Drake: "Open Systems" (Terron=E8s)

- ------=_NextPart_000_00A6_01C1B027.CD65D2A0
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    charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dwindows-1252" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2919.6307" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Hi,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>A couple of days ago I purchased Susie Ibarra's =
"Songbird=20
Suite" and I'd say it's a nice album but absolutely nothing out of this =
earth.=20
IMHO, it's something right inbetween her first trio effort "Radiance" =
and=20
"Flower After Flower", sometimes really laid back and somehow disperse =
as the=20
latter, and at times going into wild improvisations in which I'd =
highlight=20
Jennifer Choi's work on violin. Ikue Mori's contributions are for me =
pretty=20
dispensable. Even Ibarra's playing didn't hook me up this time; I find =
her a bit=20
restrained although there is a good percussion solo, "Trance N.1", and =
of course=20
some other remarkable spots, but all in all not as dynamic as I'd=20
expected.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>BTW, someone told me she'd be in Barcelona to =
present a new=20
recording with Derek Bailey. Anyone knows about that supposed new album? =
I just=20
know about "Daedal". That would confirm the validity of the information =
a=20
bit.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>With regards to "El Danz=F3n de Mois=E9s", I'm not =
as wild about=20
it as someone else on the list some days ago. It's certainly a beautiful =
album=20
but perhaps after purchasing maybe 20 Radical Jewish Culture releases =
I've grown=20
a bit tired of the "same" melodies over and over again. IMO, the =
execution is=20
superb (I was particularly shocked by Mark Feldman) but some fresh air =
would be=20
very welcome on the Series. This is really, really subjective. The =
boredom=20
factor can be too conditioning.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Best,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Efr=E9n del Valle</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>n.p: Tsahar/Ragin/Kowald/Drake: "Open Systems"=20
(Terron=E8s)</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

- ------=_NextPart_000_00A6_01C1B027.CD65D2A0--


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Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 09:30:47 -0500
From: "Zachary Steiner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Zorn as Miles????????

Kind of Blue was the second Miles album that I bought.  Birth of the
Cool was the first ( I liked it b/c I was into Gerry Mulligan at the
time).  I turned Kind of Blue and on expected to be blown away having
heard the hype.  What did I hear? Elevator music!  I relegated it to the
inoffensive list of CDs I listen to when I sleep.  I found myself asking
why this Miles Davis character was so important if his "best" album was
pretty lame.  All that changed when I happened to be looking in the
Miles section of the record store, the cover of Bitches Brew called to
me.  I put it on for the ride home. WOW! I was blown away. I didn't know
what I was hearing, but oh did I like it.  I later went to explore
earlier Miles, but it doesn't really do it for me like the electric
years.

Dodging the stones,
Zach



- -

------------------------------

Date:
From: [e-mail] (Patrick Carey)
Subject: Re: OT: saul williams / www.massmag.com

* "Andrew" <[e-mail]>:
>This is as good an opportunity as any to spam.....I write for an
>online webzine that covers Hip hop, literature, film, cultural
>commentary, industrial design, etc... I really love the mag.
>Check us out at www.massmag.com, and read my reviews of the
>recent Saul Williams and David Axelrod records.

>Again, this is not spam, but I think you guys might dig the mag.

Hey Andrew ... hope you don't mind a reply to this here.
The mag looks good!  Read your review of the Williams at,
http://www.massmag.com/winter02/setrecrevs.htm, and ...

Wow!!!  While we agree on his skills as an MC, we definitely have
different opinions on the rest of the record (and both Ursula Rucker
& Sarah Jones, it would seem :-).  I don't find the production
anywhere near as stale as you do, and to compare him (or pieces he's
done) to, IMO, has-beens like Living Colour, a Hendrix wanna-be like
Kravitz, or the f**king joke that is Rage/Zack de la Rocha is ...
well, I can't quite believe it!  I also think that, while already
old, "Coded Language" was/is a fine centerpiece.  One of the better
tracks Krust has done, on his own, or with Roni Size & Co..  I like
Saul's earlier Big Dada cuts as well, so more "old stuff" on the LP
would have been fine w/ me.

One thing to note: I haven't had the LP in rotation since Spring
of last year (2001), when I got it, but I did play it a helluva
lot (among other things) at that time.  Never know what I might
think upon revisiting it, but ...

As they say, different strokes ...  Man, sometimes I can't believe
how critical people are of music ... or art, or film, or ...  Not
bringing this up specifically because of your review, but doesn't
anyone just _listen_ and _enjoy_ (or not enjoy, and move on to the
next LP) anymore??? ;-)


- -Patrick


NP: Luc Ferrari - "Presque rien"



- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 15:24:48 +0000
From: "Kurt Gottschalk" <[e-mail]>
Subject: rejazzdeath/satoko fuji

i was being pretty nycentric (well, why not?) with my up'n'comer list,
although i don't really know how old satoko fuji is, so i'm not sure she
fits whatever criteria we're working with anyway. but she is really
remarkable.

as for recs, brian, i'd go straight to 'double take'. she and wm parker are
two of the only people i know of who are really mining big band. but i
realize, of course, that that sentence might well lead you to stay away from
it.

jo, toward to west, others are also very good, and vulcan is intersting for
tatsuya yoshida's presence, but april shower and junction i'm less sold on.
i'm actually a little worried that she, who struck me as a real voice, might
be falling into a jazz trap. but i'm hoping to see her in nyc and at victo
in the spring, so i'll reserve doomsaying.

kg


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- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V3 #761
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