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Zorn List Digest       Tuesday, February 5 2002       Volume 03 : Number 746



In this issue:
-
       tzadik sales
       venues
       Re: tzadik sales
       RE: tzadik sales
       Re: tzadik sales
       RE: Tori Amos, indeed
       Re: tzadik sales
       RE: Tori Amos, indeed
       Yet another tangent (marginal Zorn content)
       Frisell Sells Out [was RE: Bjork ranting+raving, Plus: Peabody degree losers ]
       RE: Parkins sisters (NZC)
       Re: Tori Amos, indeed
       Re: Frisell Sells Out [was RE: Bjork ranting+raving, Plus: Peabody degree losers ]
       Re: Tori Amos, indeed
       Re: Tori Amos, indeed
       Re: bjork, extended vocal technique, female singers.  non-zc.
       stereolab.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 20:21:36 -0800
From: "Benito Vergara" <[e-mail]>
Subject: tzadik sales

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail]
> [mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Skip Heller
> Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 6:08 PM

> Tzadik does things relatively inexpensively, so one record that does well
> can pay for four that don't.  BAR KOKHBA probably paid for ten Tzadik
> records.

I've wondered about this. Anyone have any idea how well Tzadik releases
sell, and which titles are the "bestsellers?" (I assume that, of all Zorn's
output at least, it's the Elektra/Nonesuch releases which sold the most
units.)

Later,
Ben

np: cat power, "what would the community think?"

http://members.tripod.com/~tamad2/
ICQ/AIM: thewilyfilipino


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 23:24:00 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: venues

In a message dated 2/4/02 10:17:50 PM,
[e-mail] writes:

<< Are you saying that some of the world's greatest concert halls are
alternative venues? >>

In the case of a pop/rock/whatever act like Bjork, definitely. The
(somewhere) aforementioned Clear Channel cabal ensures that virtually every
pop act wil play the local Enormodome or Club-O-Rama. Last summer Bjork
avoided the usual venues, as did Radiohead. Very refreshing change of pace
for fans of artists that can fill such places.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 20:56:21 -0800 (PST)
From: Tom Gatzen <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: tzadik sales

In the store I work in the best sellers were the
Masada titles and the Death Ambient stuff

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
http://greetings.yahoo.com

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 23:58:44 -0500
From: "Steve Smith" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: tzadik sales

Last time I saw real figures... admittedly a while back... the top sellers
were the two Patton albums and yes, Bar Kokhba. All in the respectable low
tens of thousands. Many others barely scratch a thousand.

Steve Smith
[e-mail]

- -----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail]
[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Benito Vergara
Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 11:22 PM

I've wondered about this. Anyone have any idea how well Tzadik releases
sell, and which titles are the "bestsellers?" (I assume that, of all Zorn's
output at least, it's the Elektra/Nonesuch releases which sold the most
units.)


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 21:04:04 -0800
From: Skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: tzadik sales

> From: Tom Gatzen <[e-mail]>
> Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 20:56:21 -0800 (PST)
> To: Benito Vergara <[e-mail]>, Zorn List
> <[e-mail]>
> Subject: Re: tzadik sales
>
> In the store I work in the best sellers were the
> Masada titles and the Death Ambient stuff

For a time, BAR KOKHBA was the label's biggest seller.

skip h


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 21:09:42 -0800
From: Chris Selvig <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Tori Amos, indeed

>
>
>I have a problem with "rip-offs."  A situation where a inferior group
>gets rich or famous by merely imitating another group (normally poorly)
>that it claims as an influence.  I do believe that people deserve
>respect and/or notoriety for their innovations and creativity.  Though,
>there is something to be said for a group that can translate a
>pre-existing style to be understood by the masses, that's a talent in
>and of itself.  Not every one can be entertaining, just as not every one
>can possess perfect technique. Though I don't know how I would feel if a
>group that I have affection for (i.e. Mr. Bungle) was being
>"ripped-off."
>
>Zach


   Can you give an example or two of bands you think are egregious
rip-offs?  I can think of some, though I don't think Nirvana and The
Raincoats sound too similar (and was it Cobain or Sonic Youth who pushed
DGC into reissuing the Raincoats records?)  But the rip-off question is
really tricky, since forms have roots and, jeez, was Captain Beefheart's
iteration of Howlin' Wolf's singing style a rip-off?  An hommage?  An
evolution?  Is a free improv guitarist sticking kitchen implements in their
strings ripping Keith Rowe off?  Was Rowe ripping John Cage off?
    There's a really good book by Griselda Pollock, "Avant-Garde Gambits,"
which is about the competition between Gauguin and his contemporaries.  The
central idea is that in an evolving form, works of art employ gambits to
gain attention: reference to, deference to, and difference from prior works.


Chris Selvig


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 21:07:04 -0800
From: Skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: tzadik sales

> From: "Steve Smith" <[e-mail]>
> Reply-To: <[e-mail]>
> Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 23:58:44 -0500
> To: "'Benito Vergara'" <[e-mail]>, "'Zorn List'"
> <[e-mail]>
> Subject: RE: tzadik sales
>
> Last time I saw real figures... admittedly a while back... the top sellers
> were the two Patton albums and yes, Bar Kokhba. All in the respectable low
> tens of thousands. Many others barely scratch a thousand.
>
> Steve Smith

What? You don't go platinum with an album called MUSIC FOR VIOLIN ALONE?!

sh


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 00:21:50 -0500
From: "Zachary Steiner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Tori Amos, indeed

   Can you give an example or two of bands you think are egregious
rip-offs?

I can't give you any concrete examples of rip-offs, but the idea bothers
me.  I think the main reason that I'm straying away from concrete
answers is because of the ambiguity of the lines between
homage/influence and rip-offs.  Here, yet again, my theory gets me in
trouble because I'm too ignorant to produce a concrete example... Oh how
I yearn for wisdom, old-timers show me the way :)

Zach


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 21:26:34 -0800
From: "D Dvb" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Yet another tangent (marginal Zorn content)

> > Zorn is not your average joe. He can afford to not give a shit because
>he
> > has something that nobody else has.

I know that I'm on the Zornlist so this may sound funny, but quite frankly
if John Zorn didn't exist, well, so what?  Of the thousands of artists that
have walked this planet in the history of recorded music, John Zorn is
somehow ultra-special?  I mean, how many potential "geniuses" have we lost
because minorities (blacks/women/etc.) were never given the opportunity?  I
don't want to get into silly space-time continuum issues (ie, Zornlist not
existing if Zorn wasn't here) but if I didn't have Zorn's music, I'd still
have the Velvets, Vandermark, Berne, Dylan, Pavement, Ayler, Art Ensemble,
O'Rourke [insert favorite artists here]. And from past threads, I know a lot
of people here have collections in the thousands, tens of thousands so
there's a lot of people you can fill in the blank with.  Zorn is the reason
I started playing sax so I'm not disparaging the guy at all...but I don't
put him on some pedestal either.

>I have gone way divergent from the common tastes of my age group.  I
>should be listening to Dave Matthews, alt-Rock, and/or rap not jazz,
>classical, and experimental.  I should be enjoying shallow comedies,
>love stories, or action movies not foreign, experimental, and
>independent films.  I find myself encountering people, both friends and

What's wrong with enjoying both?  I understand your point (it's hard not to
interject when my 23 year old sister is telling me how poignant Mariah
Carey's lyrics are) but to paraphrase a Kundera novel, it's dangerous to
spend all your time with Beethoven.

- --davy

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 00:35:18 -0500
From: "Steve Smith" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Frisell Sells Out [was RE: Bjork ranting+raving, Plus: Peabody degree losers ]

I'll agree with a lot of what Skip wrote in this thread, and a lot of what
others have written as well. But I do want to point out something of an
inaccuracy specific to the use of Frisell as an example, since I'm in a
unique position to know a little bit. Nonesuch has never used any publicist
for Frisell other than their own in-house person, and for much of his tenure
that publicist has been my now ex-wife, who started from ground zero
publicity-wise (as in zero experience but basic good sense - musical and
otherwise) and worked her way up to a position of respect. The publicist
that preceded her was indeed considered an industry powerhouse in her own
right, but she was still just one woman on the label's staff of seven.

Way I see it, there were three major things at work in Frisell's career
which took him to "the next level" or whatever. First, ECM has always been
the black sheep at any major with which it has been signed for domestic
marketing and distribution. Aside from Metheny, Jarrett and the occasional
breakaway hit from someone like Garbarek, no one on the label was ever
afforded the full resources of whatever major label ECM might happen to be
pacted at any given moment. On Nonesuch, Frisell is an anchor of the roster,
and whatever you think of this or that project on the label, they have
always done the utmost to promote their own artists, whether we're talking
the Gipsy Kings, Gidon Kremer, Philip Glass or, yes, John Zorn.
(Incidentally, Bob Hurwitz, the man who rejuvenated and rebuilt Nonesuch in
his own image, was formerly ECM's U.S. label head - small wonder that he
scooped up a substantial handful of artists like Frisell, Steve Reich and
John Adams when he set up his own shop.)

Second, Frisell simply made some of his best records early in his Nonesuch
career. I'm a big fan of 'Rambler' and 'Lookout for Hope' was certainly a
bit of a breakthrough as the first quartet disc, but 'In Line' isn't likely
to make very any Frisell Top Ten lists at this point. And some of the discs
that Frisell has made for Nonesuch tapped into music that has a wider
audience than our little avant-patch, which brought in new listeners...
'Nashville,' certainly.

And third, even if there was no megabucks publicity push for Frisell, he's
one example of a critic's darling who simply accumulated so much momentum
and goodwill with his early recordings that when he was finally signed to a
label with a chunk of Warner's marketing budget behind it, the writers who
loved him all along were finally able to get their editors and magazines in
line - I watched the same thing happening when I worked records by David S.
Ware and Dave Douglas for Columbia and RCA, respectively.

Not that I'm saying there's any magazine out there that would actually give
preferential treatment to artists on labels that spend more advertising
money... heavens, that would never happen...

Steve Smith
[e-mail]

- -----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail]
[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Skip Heller
Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 6:37 PM
Look at Frisell -- while making fine records
on ECM, he didn't get large attention fr the press.  But Nonesuch could
afford a much more efficient and powerful publicist.  Not that I rank myself
with Frisell (who was already much greater at the start of his career than
I'll ever be), but he's a classic example.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 00:03:42 -0500
From: "Steve Smith" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Parkins sisters (NZC)

Margaret and Sara Parkins are Zeena's sisters, I believe. The former plays
cello and the latter violin on Zeena's Avant disc 'Isabelle.' Andrea is a
cousin, of that much I'm sure.

Steve Smith
[e-mail]

- -----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail]
[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Ajda the Turkish
Queen
Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 9:38 PM
To: [e-mail]
Subject: Parkins sisters (NZC)


The ladies Parkins are sisters, non?

Have they put out a collaborative effort?


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 21:58:18 -0800
From: Skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Tori Amos, indeed

> From: Chris Selvig <[e-mail]>
> Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 21:09:42 -0800
> To: "Zachary Steiner" <[e-mail]>, <[e-mail]>
> Subject: RE: Tori Amos, indeed
>
> (and was it Cobain or Sonic Youth who pushed
> DGC into reissuing the Raincoats records?)

Cobain mentioned them in a few high-profile interviews.  Always preferred
the Slits myself, but that's what makes for horceracing.

skip h


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 22:07:39 -0800
From: Skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Frisell Sells Out [was RE: Bjork ranting+raving, Plus: Peabody degree losers ]

Frisell may well have been a bad example in some ways.  Charlie Hunter would
probably have worked better.

> Way I see it, there were three major things at work in Frisell's career
> which took him to "the next level" or whatever. First, ECM has always been
> the black sheep at any major with which it has been signed for domestic
> marketing and distribution. Aside from Metheny, Jarrett and the occasional
> breakaway hit from someone like Garbarek, no one on the label was ever
> afforded the full resources of whatever major label ECM might happen to be
> pacted at any given moment.
I knew the guy (he died) who was doing what ECM publicity he could while at
Warners.  If his words are to be taken as true, anything at all would be a
big improvement.

> On Nonesuch, Frisell is an anchor of the roster,
> and whatever you think of this or that project on the label, they have
> always done the utmost to promote their own artists, whether we're talking
> the Gipsy Kings, Gidon Kremer, Philip Glass or, yes, John Zorn.
> (Incidentally, Bob Hurwitz, the man who rejuvenated and rebuilt Nonesuch in
> his own image, was formerly ECM's U.S. label head - small wonder that he
> scooped up a substantial handful of artists like Frisell, Steve Reich and
> John Adams when he set up his own shop.)
>
> Second, Frisell simply made some of his best records early in his Nonesuch
> career. I'm a big fan of 'Rambler' and 'Lookout for Hope' was certainly a
> bit of a breakthrough as the first quartet disc, but 'In Line' isn't likely
> to make very any Frisell Top Ten lists at this point.
Does at my house.  A great Frisell guitar record.

> And some of the discs
> that Frisell has made for Nonesuch tapped into music that has a wider
> audience than our little avant-patch, which brought in new listeners...
> 'Nashville,' certainly.
Yeah, but those folks haven't exactly been big THIS LAND consumers.  They go
more for the stuff with Greg Leisz -- of whom I think the world -- rather
than Joey baron.

> And third, even if there was no megabucks publicity push for Frisell, he's
> one example of a critic's darling who simply accumulated so much momentum
> and goodwill with his early recordings that when he was finally signed to a
> label with a chunk of Warner's marketing budget behind it,
AHA!
> the writers who
> loved him all along were finally able to get their editors and magazines in
> line - I watched the same thing happening when I worked records by David S.
> Ware and Dave Douglas for Columbia and RCA, respectively.

I had an experience in the other direction when Blue Note were advertising
their first MMW record in a paper for which I wrote.   Advertising is the
major whip-crack when you're trying to push a new artist.  And they'll roll
over articles that interfere with that.

> Not that I'm saying there's any magazine out there that would actually give
> preferential treatment to artists on labels that spend more advertising
> money... heavens, that would never happen...
>
> Steve Smith
> [e-mail]


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 00:48:41 -0500
From: "Andrew" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Tori Amos, indeed

> I have a problem with "rip-offs."  A situation where a inferior group
> gets rich or famous by merely imitating another group (normally poorly)
> that it claims as an influence.  I do believe that people deserve
> respect and/or notoriety for their innovations and creativity>


This is how I've long felt about indie-darlings Stereolab. They've long been
lauded for their mix of jazz rhythms, vintage synths, and silly
vocals....not to mention Stereolab imitators like Broadcast and Pram. All of
these bands, but most notably Stereolab, are horribly ripping off the United
States of America. The thing is that most people haven't heard the USA, so
they heap praise on stereolab and ilk for being so inventive.

Ditto for Blonde Redhead in relation to DNA.

a


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 01:50:58 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Tori Amos, indeed

In a message dated 2/4/02 4:48:54 PM, [e-mail] writes:

>Though I don't know how I would feel if a
>group that I have affection for (i.e. Mr. Bungle) was being
>"ripped-off."
>
>Zach

lest we all forget...  imitation is the sincerest form of flattery...

k8.



- -----
[ .n o t h i n g  i s  w h a t  i s  s a i d. ]

.k a t e  p e t e r s o n.
.c o m p o s e r / p e r f o r m e r.
<A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/uforbk8/kate.html">
http://www.geocities.com/uforbk8/kate.html</A>
<A HREF="http://www.icefoundation.org">http://www.icefoundation.org</A>
(roundtable)

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 02:08:37 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: bjork, extended vocal technique, female singers.  non-zc.

In a message dated 2/4/02 6:12:27 PM, [e-mail] writes:

>> as a performer
>...[HUGE snip]
>> onto my iBook.
>
>
>Ummm.... you married?

not last time i checked...  but there were those two drunken nights...  oh
nevermind...

k


>



- -----
[ .n o t h i n g  i s  w h a t  i s  s a i d. ]

.k a t e  p e t e r s o n.
.c o m p o s e r / p e r f o r m e r.
<A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/uforbk8/kate.html">
http://www.geocities.com/uforbk8/kate.html</A>
<A HREF="http://www.icefoundation.org">http://www.icefoundation.org</A>
(roundtable)

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 02:20:19 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: stereolab.

In a message dated 2/5/02 1:33:10 AM, [e-mail] writes:

>This is how I've long felt about indie-darlings Stereolab. They've long
>been
>lauded for their mix of jazz rhythms, vintage synths, and silly
>vocals....not to mention Stereolab imitators like Broadcast and Pram. All
>of these bands, but most notably Stereolab, are horribly ripping off the
United
>States of America. The thing is that most people haven't heard the USA,
>so
>
>they heap praise on stereolab and ilk for being so inventive.

getting back to my original point...  i love, worship and adore stereolab,
they jammed harder than anyone i've ever seen in concert (all the drugs i was
on didn't hurt either), and they ruled.  but they're clear USA and especially
Neu! rip-offs...  i hear the Neu more than USA...

love,
  k8.

>
>



- -----
[ .n o t h i n g  i s  w h a t  i s  s a i d. ]

.k a t e  p e t e r s o n.
.c o m p o s e r / p e r f o r m e r.
<A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/uforbk8/kate.html">
http://www.geocities.com/uforbk8/kate.html</A>
<A HREF="http://www.icefoundation.org">http://www.icefoundation.org</A>
(roundtable)

- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V3 #746
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