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Zorn List Digest       Tuesday, February 5 2002       Volume 03 : Number 747



In this issue:
-
       New Music by Carl Stone in RealAudio, Mappings for the week beginning February 5, 2002
       Odp: Bjork ranting+raving (No Zorn Content)
       Odp: Bjork ranting+raving, Plus: Peabody degree losers
       Odp: Bjork ranting+raving, Plus: Peabody degree losers
       Re: tzadik sales
       Re: Bjork ranting+raving, Plus: Peabody degree losers
       Re: Britney
       Re: Bjork ranting+raving, Plus: Peabody degree losers
       Re: Bjorkasaurus
       Re: tzadik sales
       Fwd: Re: tzadik sales
       Fwd: Re: Bjork ranting+raving, Plus: Peabody degree losers
       Fwd: stereolab.
       hip-hop redux
       Major releases, Was: Re: Re: Bjork ranting+raving
       music & cooking
       Re: Weather Report "Live In Japan"
       IAM etc. (was Re: d-mented R&B/hip hop)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 01:23:21 -0600
From: Herb Levy <[e-mail]>
Subject: New Music by Carl Stone in RealAudio, Mappings for the week beginning February 5, 2002

Hi y'all,

This week on Mappings <http://www.antennaradio.com/avant/mappings/>,
you'll hear music by electro-acoustic composer Carl Stone.

The show went online Monday evening around 10:00 PM (-0600 GMT) and
will remain online at the above URL for a week. Last week's program
(featuring new works for solo strings with and without electronics by
Martin Bartlett, John Cage, Charlotte Hug, Gyorgy Ligeti, Kaffe
Mathews, LaDonna Smith, and David Tudor, with performances by Irvine
Arditti, Malcolm Goldstein, Garth Knox, Takehisa Kosugi, Stefano
Scodanibbio, and Frances-Marie Uitti) is still available in the
Mappings archive
<http://www.antennaradio.com/avant/mappings/index1.htm>, where you
can also find play lists for the program since it began in March 1998.

Hope you tune in to the program.

Bests,

Herb

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 08:46:49 +0100
From: "Marcin Gokieli" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Odp: Bjork ranting+raving (No Zorn Content)

> Well - I used to be heavily into the Sugarcubes, and also I do like some
of
> Bj÷rk's music; it's just her singing I can't put up with anymore. To me,
it's
> just "one-dimensional"...; it always sounds exactly the same to me...

I have a very similiar impression - her voice may be really great, but she
always sings in the same way



- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 09:06:00 +0100
From: "Marcin Gokieli" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Odp: Bjork ranting+raving, Plus: Peabody degree losers

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Skip Heller <[e-mail]>

> certainly is a great artist).  Look at Frisell -- while making fine
records
> on ECM, he didn't get large attention fr the press.  But Nonesuch could
> afford a much more efficient and powerful publicist.  Not that I rank
myself
> with Frisell (who was already much greater at the start of his career than
> I'll ever be), but he's a classic example.

I don't want to join the whole discussion on the major labels etc., but it
may be worth pointing out that Frisell's Elektra stuff is much better then
his ECM. He recorded some really great records in a row after signing for
elektra



- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 09:15:17 +0100
From: "Marcin Gokieli" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Odp: Bjork ranting+raving, Plus: Peabody degree losers

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Patrice L. Roussel <[e-mail]>

> Are you not tired of the same patronizing and condescending attitude?
After
> having followed non-mainstream music for almost thirty years, I just don't
buy
> it anymore.

What do you buy, then?
Marcin


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 03:12:12 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: tzadik sales

'>>I've wondered about this. Anyone have any idea how well Tzadik releases
sell, and which titles are the "bestsellers?" (I assume that, of all Zorn's
output at least, it's the Elektra/Nonesuch releases which sold the most
units.)

Later,
Ben<<

This was answered a couple of days ago courtesy of Efren with his Zorn=20
interview.  Here goes:


<< JZ: The last thing I wanted to do is start a record company. But=20
practically, I think the only way an artist can survive in this society and=20
retain 100% credibility, integrity and self-respect is do-it-yourself (...)=20
So I started Tzadik records. (...) It couldn=E2=80=99t be more different tha=
n a major=20
corporation. It=E2=80=99s incredibly artist-friendly and it=E2=80=99s based=20=
on profit share.=20
All the expenses that go into making the record are paid up first and then w=
e=20
split the profits. Everybody gets the same budget. Every record on Tzadik is=
=20
made for 5,000 dollars. And this is esoteric music, it=E2=80=99s not gonna s=
ell a lot=20
of copies. But nevertheless, we have records that have sold 35,000 copies on=
=20
our label. And others that have only sold less than a thousand. But the=20
balances are in a good place.  >>

    Later,
            John Threadgould

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 09:46:04 +0100
From: "Remco Takken" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Bjork ranting+raving, Plus: Peabody degree losers

Skip Heller wrote:
There's a
> very serious publicity machine behind Ms Krall, coupled with her on
> commitment to being the kind of artist that gets magazine covers.  I don't
> find her objectionable, but I also don't think she's exactly light years
> ahead of her peer group.  There's a enough evidence to suggest that, if
your
> label spends enough advertising dollars in a given magaine, you can call
> some shots.  Which probably has a lot to do with who is on the covers of
> magazines.
This is very very true. If you mirror the bigger European jazz magazines to
their American counterparts, one would suspect a difference. The content
surely differs from US magazines (at least some coverage of Brit fusion,
German impro, Scandinavian electronics, New Dutch Swing).

But the covers tell you who's paying for the ads. Diana Krall is on our
magazines, but I don't believe she ever performed in Holland. How could that
be possible, other than some multinational record company paying the
magazine?????

Regards, Remco Takken


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 10:06:57 +0100
From: "Remco Takken" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Britney

>    You have made numerous jabs at the sorts of musicians who perform in
> coffee shops, release records in editions of less than 1000, etc - are you
> suggesting that nothing of worth is created at this level?  I don't think
> obscurity validates art, and a lot of half-assed doodling masquerades as
> "avant-garde," but there are a lot of excellent records made in small
editions.

It seems to be a taboo, that a big percentage of us Z-listers, might have
awful tastes in cultures outside of the arts. Just because we know shit
about it.

Example, based on my own life: I have never eaten $40 limited edition
cabbages, so I won't know if they are better. There are a few restaurants
that runs really expensive cards on 'better' food. They will never reach a
wide audience. Hey, maybe we all miss something!!!!

It's the same in music. Most people know shit about it, and are satisfied
with all the crap they listen to on the radio. No problem.
Regards, Remco Takken


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 09:52:19 +0100
From: "Remco Takken" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Bjork ranting+raving, Plus: Peabody degree losers

> Who cares about somebody who plays like Wes Montgomery in 2002 (besides
the
> usual nostalgic of the good old time)? Forty years ago, it was another
> story.
>
I will sell my soul to the devil immediately to sound like Wes Montgomery,
and I really appreciate guys who play like that nowadays. Admitted, record
covers by Russel Malone look bad, but seeing him live in concert is a
completely different story.

Another guy who is run by a big record company that makes stuoid marketing
decisions for him. Malone operates in the 'wrong' part of jazz, where top
executives decide how the young neobop-styles must be marketed.

I am sure more Z-listers would listen to music like this, if it wasn't for
the record companies political agendas, to present 'neobop' as it is now.

Regards, Remco

np Marc Ribot: Saints (it's on Atlantic!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 09:56:20 +0100
From: "Remco Takken" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Bjorkasaurus

>
> But the entire gamble of labels paying to publish unknown artists and
making
> enough money to run the business has always intrigued me.
>
Ask any artist on sixtieslabel ESP Disk how that works. They never saw a
penny of their 'non compromising noncommercial potential' music. We are
talking second generation remastered cd's of the complete catalogue at this
moment...

Regards, Remco


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 10:26:35 +0100
From: "Remco Takken" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: tzadik sales

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Benito Vergara" <[e-mail]>
To: "Zorn List" <[e-mail]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2002 5:21 AM
Subject: tzadik sales


well
> > can pay for four that don't.  BAR KOKHBA probably paid for ten Tzadik
> > records.
>
> I've wondered about this. Anyone have any idea how well Tzadik releases
> sell, and which titles are the "bestsellers?" (I assume that, of all
Zorn's
> output at least, it's the Elektra/Nonesuch releases which sold the most
> units.)
>
I read somewhere, probably on the zornlist, that Bar Khokba sold 35,000.
Tzadik being a non-pfrofit organisation, I assume that, to break even with a
release, the have to sell less than 1,000 copies per release.

The 35,000 out of Bar Khokba in this light, provides money for far more than
35 releases.

About elektra: in Europe, Elektra is available in the shops, but so is
Tzadik (and, expensively Avant imports). From the day Tzadik hit the shops,
with the beautiful packaging and new music, I doubt whether the Elektras
still sold a lot.

Regards, Remco



- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 10:29:23 +0100 (CET)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Efr=E9n=20del=20Valle?= <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fwd: Re: tzadik sales

Thanks John. I was thinking nobody had read the
transcription! ;-)

Greetings,
EfrΘn

>
> This was answered a couple of days ago courtesy of
> Efren with his Zorn
> interview.  Here goes:
>
>
> << JZ: The last thing I wanted to do is start a
> record company. But
> practically, I think the only way an artist can
> survive in this society and
> retain 100% credibility, integrity and self-respect
> is do-it-yourself (...)
> So I started Tzadik records. (...) It couldnΓÇÖt be
> more different than a major
> corporation. ItΓÇÖs incredibly artist-friendly and
> itΓÇÖs based on profit share.
> All the expenses that go into making the record are
> paid up first and then we
> split the profits. Everybody gets the same budget.
> Every record on Tzadik is
> made for 5,000 dollars. And this is esoteric music,
> itΓÇÖs not gonna sell a lot
> of copies. But nevertheless, we have records that
> have sold 35,000 copies on
> our label. And others that have only sold less than
> a thousand. But the
> balances are in a good place.  >>
>
>     Later,
>             John Threadgould
>
> -
>

_______________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Messenger
Comunicaci≤n instantßnea gratis con tu gente.
http://messenger.yahoo.es

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 10:37:29 +0100 (CET)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Efr=E9n=20del=20Valle?= <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fwd: Re: Bjork ranting+raving, Plus: Peabody degree losers

HI,
> np Marc Ribot: Saints (it's on
> Atlantic!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

But not anymore. I think he's definitely been thrown
out of Atlantic after that release. A pity? I'm not so
sure.

Greetings,

EfrΘn

_______________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Messenger
Comunicaci≤n instantßnea gratis con tu gente.
http://messenger.yahoo.es

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 10:43:52 +0100 (CET)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Efr=E9n=20del=20Valle?= <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fwd: stereolab.

Hi,

As opposed to your satisfactory Stereolab-experience,
I saw them live in Barcelona last September and it was
probably the worst concert I've ever seen.
However, I do enjoy their records, specially their
latest release "Sound-Dust". As far as being as they
want us to believe, I don't agree.
I can't agree with someone's assertion that Pram are
Stereolab imitators, either. There are obvious
similarities, but Pram are much darker and
"avant-gardish" than the "darlings".

Best,

EfrΘn del Valle



>
> getting back to my original point...  i love,
> worship and adore stereolab,
> they jammed harder than anyone i've ever seen in
> concert (all the drugs i was
> on didn't hurt either), and they ruled.  but they're
> clear USA and especially
> Neu! rip-offs...  i hear the Neu more than USA...
>
> love,
>   k8.
>
> >
> >
>
>
>
> -----
> [ .n o t h i n g  i s  w h a t  i s  s a i d. ]
>
> .k a t e  p e t e r s o n.
> .c o m p o s e r / p e r f o r m e r.
> <A
> HREF="http://www.geocities.com/uforbk8/kate.html">
> http://www.geocities.com/uforbk8/kate.html</A>
> <A
>
HREF="http://www.icefoundation.org">http://www.icefoundation.org</A>
>
> (roundtable)
>
> -
>

_______________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Messenger
Comunicaci≤n instantßnea gratis con tu gente.
http://messenger.yahoo.es

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 13:06:14 +0200
From: "Vincent Kargatis / Anne Larson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: hip-hop redux

I dl'ed a number of hip-hop tracks recently, many from the recent 'deranged
rap' discussion.  I've certainly seen Cannibal Ox's THE COLD VEIN tossed
around on year-end lists all over the place, but I gotta admit, every single
thing I've heard (~3-4 tracks from each) from the Cannibal Ox, Company Flow,
Anti-Pop Consortium crowd leaves me dead cold.  I get no audio enjoyment out
of it at all, and I'm wondering whether I'm missing something.  I guess I'm
not MC-centric, which this stuff seems to be, with the lo-fi, gloomy urban
backgrounds, and to my ears, largely NOT rhythmically-related raps
dominating the whole thing.

Otoh, I could listen to The Coup all day (I love The Coup!**), and Outkast,
and the tracks I grabbed from Aesop Rock and Quasimoto are cool (tho I
prefer AR).  (And with older stuff, I favored PE, Native Tongue, Gang Starr,
etc.)

I'm guessing the first group of stuff is just not my bag, sonically, but I'm
checking whether that "makes sense" to those familiar with all of the
above - do you hear a distinction between those groups?  It seems one key
difference for me is that the group I like always seem to be "in the
pocket", the MCs interacting, staying with, and gleefully skipping over the
beats, where as Company Flow etc uses it primarily, to my ears, as sonic
background.  To the experts, is it likely I'm missing something (am I
"mis-hearing" it?), or does it sound like, given my preferences, more
listening to the first group won't help much?

I'm asking cuz, usually, I'm not far outside the "mainstream" of the
"adventurous listening" crowd, but I'm not getting this Cannibal Ox thing at
all.

** The Coup is interesting - the music and raps rule, though I don't swallow
Boots' communist horse-shit for a second.  Reminds me of enjoying religious
music (Orthodox liturgical hymns, Prince's "The Cross", plenty in between)
while being a stone-cold atheist.  But I guess I came to pop music pretty
late in life (raised on jazz), so lyrical content has never been much of an
issue with me - although, who couldn't appreciate stuff like

"Ay man, I got a disease...It's called broke, wi no muthafuckin' respect,
and it's an STD, but you ain't never gon'nut, cuz it comes from a long
legacy of getting fucked".

(Otoh, put that in an El-P production, and I likely wouldn't give a crap.)
- --
Vincent Kargatis
np: Rowe/Muller/Sugimoto - THE WORLD TURNED UPSIDE DOWN (Erstwhile)


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 12:26:05 +0100
From: "Remco Takken" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Major releases, Was: Re: Re: Bjork ranting+raving

> > np Marc Ribot: Saints (it's on
> > Atlantic!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
>
> But not anymore. I think he's definitely been thrown
> out of Atlantic after that release. A pity? I'm not so
> sure.
>
I heard about that. Still, it's strange to get such an uncompromising solo
guitar album released by a major...

Would you believe the recent Atlantic releases by multisaxofonist James
Carter aren't even available in Holland? Worldwide huh? Those major artists
get fucked over big time. A small label would at least allow you to sell
cd's at shows: a big label helps the stores, not the artists. I doubt
whether James Carter ever had more than 2,500 copies of his last two cd's
out there.

He would be way better of dealing with an indie, just as Marc Ribot is now.
Regards, Remco Takken


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 12:29:46 +0100
From: Ari <[e-mail]>
Subject: music & cooking

> Example, based on my own life: I have never eaten $40 limited edition
> cabbages, so I won't know if they are better. There are a few restaurants
> that runs really expensive cards on 'better' food. They will never reach a
> wide audience. Hey, maybe we all miss something!!!!

You are, believe me ;-) But most of the 'better' music isn't more expensive
than the crap. So...

> It's the same in music. Most people know shit about it, and are satisfied
> with all the crap they listen to on the radio. No problem.

...I don't think this is a good comparison. I'll take you to the best
Belgian restaurant and you'll go bankrupt, cause you'll wanna go there twice
a week. Play some Xenakis and your neigbours will turn on the volume of the
crap on their radio (but who cares?).

Ari

np: G. Klucevsek - Who stole the polka? (great fun!)

btw isn't zorn crazy about (expensive) food in chic restaurants? (where are
the French members of this list?) (think i read that somewher)


- -

------------------------------

Date:
From: [e-mail] (Patrick Carey)
Subject: Re: Weather Report "Live In Japan"

>>For me Live In Tokyo is the one.  This is an early version of
>>the band tearing it up in 1972. Close to (dare I use the phrase?)
>>free jazz at times.

>>What label is this on, and has it been issued on CD?

* [e-mail]:
>Weather Report:  one of the greatest groups of musicians that ever
>existed.  Live in Tokyo was released on CD in Japan, if you look
>around you'll find it.

Weather Report "Live In Japan" CD (Sony Japan: SRCS-9139)
3/31/97  Y2913


- -Patrick



- -

------------------------------

Date:
From: [e-mail] (Patrick Carey)
Subject: IAM etc. (was Re: d-mented R&B/hip hop)

* the muff <[e-mail]>
>speaking of french hip hop, i'm surprised no one here has mentioned IA=
M.
>they're much more commercial than any of the previously mentioned arti=
sts.
>>they have great beats, rhythm, etc.

Well, I guess you missed my two posts. :-b

<snip> ... If you're willing to try (again), or perhaps something
you haven't heard ... give a listen to Solaar's first 2 LPs, IAM's
2nd and 3rd, Faf Larage's "C'est ma cause", Shurik'n's "O=F9 je vis",
Intik's "S/T", maybe 3eme Oeil's LP and Oxmo Puccino's "Op=E9ra puccino=
"
(it helps to like Biggie :) or mid-period Supreme NTM. ... <snip>

<snip> ... Early Solaar is the best (first couple of LPs), but there's
much more there if you look further.  He's simply the name that first
made it internationally.  If interested, check out the whole Marseilles
scene [the main group IAM, and spin off work from Shurik'n, Imhotep,
Akhenaton & Freeman (the last two don't move me as much as the first)]
plus related groups/artists like Faf Larage, 3eme Oeil, Intik (Arabic/
Algerian connection, and a nice reggae vibe), Oxmo Puccino, Fonky
Family etc.  There's also Paris-based stuff like Supreme NTM, and
Minist=E8re Amer. ... <snip>

>kinda like st germain for the jazz enthusiast.

This, I completely disagree with.  I would argue that IAM can hold
their own with the best of them (hip hoppers).  I'm assuming you meant
to imply that St. Germain is "jazz lite" and therefore not the same
as the "real thing", which I believe IAM is.  If I read you wrong,
my apologies.


- -Patrick



- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V3 #747
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