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Zorn List Digest       Monday, February 4 2002       Volume 03 : Number 745



In this issue:
-
       Re: Bjorkasaurus
       Re: Bjorkasaurus
       Re: Bjork ranting+raving, Plus: Peabody degree losers
       Re: Bjorkasaurus
       Re: Tori Amos, indeed+I smell misogyny
       Re: Bjorkasaurus
       Re: Tori Amos, indeed+I smell misogyny
       All is forgiv'n (No ZC)
       Parkins sisters (NZC)
       Misunderstandings
       Re: Parkins sisters (NZC)
       Re: Bjorkasaurus
       Britney
       Re: Britney
       Re: Misunderstandings
       Re: Bjork ranting+raving, Glenn Gould

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 17:38:25 -0800
From: Skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Bjorkasaurus

> From: [e-mail]
> Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 19:27:54 EST
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Bjorkasaurus
>
> As for majors, the key differences between big labels and little labels is
> usually just distribution and budget.

No -- there's more to it than that.  The difference is who runs 'em and why.
it's the difference between Clive Davis and John Zorn.

> There have been just as many "bad"
> indies as "bad" majors.
True, but at least at the indie you can go to the office and punch the crap
out of the a**hole who's making things difficult.  Also, the royalty
statements you get fr an indie tend to be more readable.

> I mean, they're all out to make money, and as in any
> capitalist system, some people and companies make more money than others.
> Perhaps the whole system is therefore flawed, but I don't see many indies
> offering their albums for free.
No, but you also don't see that many indies putting out Mariah Carey records
or other swill just because it will sell (until they get chained to a major,
after which, they stand to lose their best-selling artist because of that
"first look" codicial, then they specifically have to find a way to close
the sales gap).

skip h


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 19:43:22 -0600
From: Matthew Ross Davis <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Bjorkasaurus

Skip Heller([e-mail])@Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 05:38:25PM -0800:
> No, but you also don't see that many indies putting out Mariah Carey records
> or other swill just because it will sell (until they get chained to a major,
> after which, they stand to lose their best-selling artist because of that
> "first look" codicial, then they specifically have to find a way to close
> the sales gap).

One thing that strikes me is the success of labels such as Matador. Here's a
label with a hugely wide array of artists and styles, and I would *think* that
the reason they are successful is because they allow their "big name" artists
to bring in some of the cash to afford them the chance to publish smaller name
acts.

With Tzadik I've always imagined that they just have enough cash to break even
on the releases - and I would imagine most indie labels operate in much the
same way.

But the entire gamble of labels paying to publish unknown artists and making
enough money to run the business has always intrigued me.

m
http://craque.net


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 18:02:10 -0800
From: Skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Bjork ranting+raving, Plus: Peabody degree losers

> From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>

> Who cares about somebody who plays like Wes Montgomery in 2002 (besides the
> usual nostalgic of the good old time)?

I meant "as well as".  And, whatever the year, great plaing is great
playing.  I don't think relevance is an issue if I guy can play really great
guitar, irregardless of idiom.  I have a phobia about deciding relevance
based on time.  Whether or not I like Ornette Coleman's quartet, he is
extremely relevant to a community of players, even if that stuff is forty
years old.  Wes deserves that same respect.  And so does Clarence White and
a lot of other guys whose ideas have withstood the test of the years.
>
> Classical orchestras are packed with top notch skilled technicians, but would
> I interrupt my activities to see them if they decide to stop at my local
> coffee shop for some "experimental" noodling? I doubt.

It would depend on the player.  A few years ago, that criterion would have
cost you the chance to see Mark Feldman in a really intimate setting.


>> Zorn's opinion of the press and the effect major labels have on it was spot
>
> Zorn is not your average joe. He can afford to not give a shit because he
> has something that nobody else has.

Granted, but there are a great many people who are not your average joe and
who provide a unique service.  But you have often to go digging for 'em.
And I think honestly that anybody can not give a shit about the other stuff
if they just do what's in their heart.  You may fail at it, but at least you
haven't wasted your time.  You may pass marginally, but at least you get to
pay your rent and bills doing it even if you maybe can't afford a Mercedes.
I can't help but think there are a lot of people out there doing amazing
things but who didn't have Zorn's opportunities.  This is not putting Zorn
down.  He has the goods, to be sure.  But he found his way to the right
place at the right time.


> Are you not tired of the same patronizing and condescending attitude? After
> having followed non-mainstream music for almost thirty years, I just don't buy
> it anymore. People are far from being stupid. We should not forget that the
> first reason why music does not sell is because you can live without it (to
> say it nicely). The myth of the tormented genius, pure in his mind, not
> willing to compromise his art, and totally misunderstood... I won't comment.

Well, some people refuse to get ulcers doing a job they hate.  For me, the
idea of committing six months to a tour that offers absolutely no prospect
of fun, growth, interplay, etc is a bad idea.  Better to stay home, maybe
make less dough, but like what you're doing.  Some people -- in music --
relegate it to "it's just a job" and go about their business.  They leave
the job at the studio or whatever and that's that.  Fine, if not the kind of
musician I admire.

I don't think any audience is inherently stupid.  But I think there are
clumps of listeners who are better-eduated than others -- which does not
always mean they automatically make the smartest choices, either.  As for
tormented geniuses, I have known a couple (although not in music) and
they're not much fun.  Personally, I've learned to refuse jobs I'll hate no
matter what the dough -- and I answer this personally because I sense
something akin to a personal opinion question here -- because the result of
playing music I hate will always cost me more than money.  I don't call that
purity, either.  It's more like enlightened self-interest.

> Yes, big audience does not mean quality (or what gratifying qualifier you
> prefer), but playing in front of empty rooms does not imply it either.
>
Music that does not sell just doesn't sell.  As for the empty rooms, I don't
know what that implies.  To hear Paul Bley tell it, it implies you're doing
something there's not yet an audience for (re: his memories of the group
with him, Cherry, Ornette et al).  If you honestly believe in what you're
playing -- without regard for fame, $, or critical regard -- you should be
happy just to be doing it.

skip h


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 18:08:07 -0800
From: Skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Bjorkasaurus

> From: Matthew Ross Davis <[e-mail]>
> Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 19:43:22 -0600
> To: Skip Heller <[e-mail]>
> Cc: [e-mail], [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: Bjorkasaurus

> One thing that strikes me is the success of labels such as Matador. Here's a
> label with a hugely wide array of artists and styles, and I would *think* that
> the reason they are successful is because they allow their "big name" artists
> to bring in some of the cash to afford them the chance to publish smaller name
> acts.
They're one of the few that's been allowed to keep their big name acts after
hooking up with a major.  Whoever drafted their aggreement was very crafty.

> With Tzadik I've always imagined that they just have enough cash to break even
> on the releases - and I would imagine most indie labels operate in much the
> same way.
Tzadik does things relatively inexpensively, so one record that does well
can pay for four that don't.  BAR KOKHBA probably paid for ten Tzadik
records.

> But the entire gamble of labels paying to publish unknown artists and making
> enough money to run the business has always intrigued me.
Passionate record guys are intriguing.  They run things according to their
own taste.  You ougtha meet Lee Jospeh at Dionysus.  Even as a lot of his
peers/competitiors with more $ went belly-up, he's stayed in business.  And
I think it's because he doesn't care enough about anything else to change
his ways.

skip h


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 21:10:41 -0500
From: "Ajda the Turkish Queen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Tori Amos, indeed+I smell misogyny

>>  I don't think anyone's trying to make a point for Brittney as a force of
>>art, but it does get certain people off.  I imagine that her work is
>>meaningful to a 13 year old girl, whereas Masada would not adress the
>>concerns of a 14 yr old girl as well.  And 14 yr old girls need music,
>>too. Is she wrong to provide it?

Sniff, sniff...Do I smell authority??  The final word??

{Here comes the sarcasm) Yes, indeed, young girls cannot handle abstract
musics.  Their brains are lacking!

How do you know what a 14 yr-old girl likes to listen to??  Have you ever
been one?  I didn't think so.  Well, I have, as have the other females on
this list.  Don't assume you know what we, or any other FEMALES of any age
like.  I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume you
didn't mean that comment to come out the way it did;)

Ajda the Turkish Queen
http://mp3.com/turkishqueen
http://wmbr.mit.edu/schedesc.html#binge
Remix http://drawbridge.com/countess/music.html




_________________________________________________________________
Join the worldÆs largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
http://www.hotmail.com


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 18:12:03 -0800
From: Jim Flannery <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Bjorkasaurus

[e-mail] wrote:
>
> After the Sugarcubes (at best a cult phenom),

And for some reason I feel an urge to remind y'all that the Sugarcubes were not
her first band, that she'd been at it for 4 or 5 years by *that* time, and her
previous act was on the CRASS label (and sounded not even anything like Crass).

- --
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jim Flannery                                             [e-mail]

         "It seems that the less respect you have for the legacy
          of jazz, the more likely you are to create it."
                                                     -- Steve Hanson
np: Mellow Candle, _Swaddling Songs_
nr: Ian Brady, _The Gates of Janus_

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 18:30:06 -0800
From: Skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Tori Amos, indeed+I smell misogyny

> From: "Ajda the Turkish Queen" <[e-mail]>
> Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 21:10:41 -0500
> To: [e-mail], [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: Tori Amos, indeed+I smell misogyny
>
>
> How do you know what a 14 yr-old girl likes to listen to??  Have you ever
> been one?  I didn't think so.  Well, I have, as have the other females on
> this list.  Don't assume you know what we, or any other FEMALES of any age
> like.  I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume you
> didn't mean that comment to come out the way it did;)
>
Certainly I meant no disrespect.  I ask my nieces -- who are 13 and 14
- --what they like and why.   I take their answers at face value and on good
faith.  I like to know what music to buy them for their birthdays etc, and
why that's what they want.  While I have never been a fourteen year old
girl, I feel safe with their answers about their music.  They tend to go for
things you can dance to and which contain lyrics about love relationships.
A year or so ago, Ms Spears was the music they were most happy to recieve,
whereas before that, they and their friends wre quite taken with the Spice
Girls' records.

As for 14 yr olds of either sex listening to abstract music, I'd say you've
got a unique 14 yr old on your hands if abstract music is the entertainment
they crave.  Come to think of it, that craving makes for a unique 36-yr-old,
if the BILLBOARD charts are any indication.

skip h


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 21:34:15 -0500
From: "Ajda the Turkish Queen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: All is forgiv'n (No ZC)

OK.  I see where you're coming from.  In fact, that explanation was cute.
All I'm sayin' is personally, I wasn't into music _at all_ until I started
listening to college radio at the age of 14.  That opened the flood gates
for me.  I'm confident without it I would not be typing these words:)

Ajda the Turkish Queen
http://mp3.com/turkishqueen
http://wmbr.mit.edu/schedesc.html#binge
Remix http://drawbridge.com/countess/music.html


_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 21:38:24 -0500
From: "Ajda the Turkish Queen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Parkins sisters (NZC)

The ladies Parkins are sisters, non?

Have they put out a collaborative effort?

Cheers,
Ajda the Turkish Queen
http://mp3.com/turkishqueen
http://wmbr.mit.edu/schedesc.html#binge
Remix http://drawbridge.com/countess/music.html


_________________________________________________________________
Join the worldÆs largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
http://www.hotmail.com


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 21:50:34 -0500
From: "Zachary Steiner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Misunderstandings

I have gone way divergent from the common tastes of my age group.  I
should be listening to Dave Matthews, alt-Rock, and/or rap not jazz,
classical, and experimental.  I should be enjoying shallow comedies,
love stories, or action movies not foreign, experimental, and
independent films.  I find myself encountering people, both friends and
otherwise, that say something-- for I have much disdain or loathing--is
great.  Often I bite my tongue, but feel horrible for harboring such ill
will for something they find so remarkable.  I haven't been able to
reconcile whether I'm right for my opinions and tastes, but more
importantly if this snobbery (as I feel it) is warranted or accepted.
I'm not sure if having outsider tastes is something you pick or if it
picks you.  Is this terrible feeling I have for what I perceive as
snobbery normal?  It almost seems impossible to have outsider tastes and
not have some opinion (probably) on "insider" music.

Zach


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 18:53:38 -0800
From: Skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Parkins sisters (NZC)

> From: "Ajda the Turkish Queen" <[e-mail]>
> Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 21:38:24 -0500
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Parkins sisters (NZC)
>
> The ladies Parkins are sisters, non?
cousins, i think.

skip h


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 18:54:14 -0800
From: "Rev. Freud Hairs" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Bjorkasaurus

"then followed _that_ by a disc backed by Inuit singers, Zeena
Parkins, and Matmos. She then toured
with the same odd combo and stuck strictly to alternative venues."

Are you saying that some of the world's greatest concert halls are
alternative venues?


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 19:47:14 -0800
From: Chris Selvig <[e-mail]>
Subject: Britney

"Here we are in the third millenium and the cliche of the young woman in
the music business being totally manipulated goes stronger than ever. I
don't know what control you have on your life, but I am sure that I would
be better off with hers." - I'm not sure if she's totally manipulated, but
c'mon - these young women are chosen because they are good looking and they
know how to dance.  Do you think she's working out all of the arrangements
for her songs, choreographing her squad of dancers, choosing each New
Look?  And Patrice, if you want to spend your days practicing dance
routines and lipsynching, I'm sure your town has a dance school that would
be delighted to empty your wallet.  I'm afraid I don't have the build for
her life and I don't much care for dancing.
   You have made numerous jabs at the sorts of musicians who perform in
coffee shops, release records in editions of less than 1000, etc - are you
suggesting that nothing of worth is created at this level?  I don't think
obscurity validates art, and a lot of half-assed doodling masquerades as
"avant-garde," but there are a lot of excellent records made in small editions.
   And judging from the recent whining about falling record sales, I'm not
the exalted big entertainment money is being managed so well, after all.





- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 20:04:09 -0800
From: Skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Britney

> From: Chris Selvig <[e-mail]>
> Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 19:47:14 -0800
> To: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
> Cc: [e-mail]
> Subject: Britney
>
> You have made numerous jabs at the sorts of musicians who perform in
> coffee shops, release records in editions of less than 1000, etc - are you
> suggesting that nothing of worth is created at this level?  I don't think
> obscurity validates art, and a lot of half-assed doodling masquerades as
> "avant-garde," but there are a lot of excellent records made in small
> editions.
> And judging from the recent whining about falling record sales, I'm not
> the exalted big entertainment money is being managed so well, after all.
>
I gotta second this emotion.

skip h


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 20:03:39 -0800
From: "Rev. Freud Hairs" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Misunderstandings

>>>I haven't been able to reconcile whether I'm right for my
opinions and tastes, but more
importantly if this snobbery (as I feel it) is warranted or
accepted.<<<

I'll bet well over 50% of Zorn-listers are unequally yoked with
significant others who do not share our interest in
non-lowest-common-denominator music.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 20:16:21 -0800 (PST)
From: Ryan Novak <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Bjork ranting+raving, Glenn Gould

>Glenn Gould once said that it would be interesting to

>see what happened if
>musicians were completely annonymous and had no
>concept of who was listening
>to them, why, or how much it sold.  Then, he opined,
>the artist would have
>to rely solely on his own artistic judgement.
>
>It's a little extreme, but interesting to ponder.


Well, I'd say this is a good way to think of yourself
as a musician or anything.  Do I have enough faith in
what I do that I feel it matters in the world without
any sort of confirmation?  Sounds lonely, but even
with one enthusiastic fan or millions who may fill up
your wallet in the process, this could be the mirror
where you see just how true you are being to music,
art, or yourself in general.  Not a place to live, but
probably to visit regularly.

But I'm just paraphrasing the great Screech.  :~)


- ---Ryan Novak

__________________________________________________
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http://greetings.yahoo.com

- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V3 #745
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