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Zorn List Digest       Friday, February 1 2002       Volume 03 : Number 734



In this issue:
-
       Re: jazz punk
       Re: post-rock question
       Re: OT: freestyle fellowship/saul williams
       Re: French pock/rop
       Re: david bowie (slight return)
       Peter Cusak's MY FAVORITE SOUNDS OF LONDON
       Trisha Brown Dancing To Dave Douglas
       Re: French pock/rop
       Re: French pock/rop
       Re: French pock/rop
       Re:Serge
       Re: Serge
       Re:Serge
       Re: French pock/rop
       Dutronc
       Coluche
       Re: OT: freestyle fellowship/saul williams
       Re: French pock/rop

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 18:40:45 +0000
From: "graham stephenson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: jazz punk

i think the minutemen would be a good example of this.  they came from the
80's hardcore scene in L.A. but started to play guitars without distortion,
to keep their sound unique.  the guitar parts are equally jazzy and funky,
played with the attitude and edge of punk.


     __  (\_
    (_ \ ( '>
      ) \/_)=
      (_(_ )_
     squirrel


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- -

------------------------------

Date:
From: [e-mail] (Patrick Carey)
Subject: Re: post-rock question

* "Verstraeten Stefan" <[e-mail]>
>I need the musical knowledge that floats on this list...
>I am looking for the name of the band and the title of their album...

>They had a some airplay (at the end of) last year with a song called
>"Iron Long". They had a video that was entirely constructed from
>drawings of people inhaling air in various ways and with various things....

I'm probably way off if you're correct with the song title,
but if it's actually "Iron Lung" _by any chance_, then what
you heard could be the UK band, Pram.  The song is a good
6 years old though so no doubt I'm rambling for no reason.


- -P



- -

------------------------------

Date:
From: [e-mail] (Patrick Carey)
Subject: Re: OT: freestyle fellowship/saul williams

>If by "new" you mean "Amethyst Rock Star", I think it's brilliant,
>and was a breath of fresh air when I was spinning it non-stop
>early last year. :)  I've seen Saul live with his band and they
>can certainly "bring the noise/funk/whathaveyou".  His lyrics/
>poetry and delivery are unmatched for me, although some of Mike
>Ladd's stuff comes close.

* "carlos torres" <[e-mail]>:
>this is one ill have to argue. i thought it was very mediocre. his beats
>are recycled jibberish at high volume..and as for his lyrics...the words
>trite and just plain silly (in the bad sense, as when someone is trying
>to be serious but its just too darn bad to take it that way) come to mind

Wow!  Never heard this from _anyone_.  Pretty harsh, but hey ...
it's your take.  I don't find anything "trite" or "silly" about him.
And ... "recycled jibberish"?  How can (drum) beats (played by a real,
live drummer) be "jibberish"?  This really leaves me wondering whether
we're listening to the same LP.

Takes all kinds, I guess.


- -Patrick



- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 11:26:05 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: French pock/rop

    BTW, the last issue of MOJO has a good intro to French pop. It shows
that French pop was at the best when it did not try to imitate the English/
US models (and at worst...).

    A few comments on Ducan's every good overlook of French pop:

On Sat, 09 Jan 1904 23:44:28 +0100  duncan youngerman wrote:
>
> Gainsbourg I see as a highly gifted wisecrack and self-promo man, not
> much more (the only song of his I find enjoyable is "Comic strip", sung
> by Brigitte Bardot, an irresistibly cute jingle, really).

Gainsbourg is much more than "Comic Strip"! He is responsible for a
significant part of the top best French songs. Gainsbourg did not
create musical trends, and instead was inpired by them (he was very
attentive to every new musical movements all over the world, and
borrowed heavily). This can be perceived as a crticism but it is
not. Gainsbourg's main talent was at playing with words and in
using new music genres to craft great songs (most of them still
stands after more than four decades!).

> The onslaught of rock n'roll and rock in the 60's was for France a
> musical disaster. Mimicking American or British fashionable attitudes
> became commercially obligatory and the fragile native thread of melodic,
> thoughtful chanson was broken. Johnny Halliday (his real name is
> Jean-Philippe Smet), the uncontested pop idol since1960 perfectly
> illustrates this loss and the qualification "involuntarily funny".

This is unfortunately true. I have forgotten how awful and derivative
many of these bands were, when, at the same time so many amazing French
songs were written. The only decent rock made in France was of the
experimental type (and Magma is the first I can think of).

> There was a very brief moment of tremendous hope in 1968 (I was 12) that
> a Great Dawn of francophone pop music on a par with Anglo-american
> standards was finally about to happen when the song "Lindberg" by Robert
> Charlebois (Quebec) hit the airwaves: a stunningly inventive
> Dylan-meets-Pink Floyd hit that stood miles apart from all the phony
> local production.

I missed that totally (and I have the same age :-).

> Charlebois made a couple good albums but regrettably did not end up
> setting French-language pop on fire.
>
> Despite some memorable Dylan/Lennonesque attempts ("Je suis un homme",
> etc.), the talented Michel Polnareff did not succeed to do that either.

How can you reduce Polnareff to one of his most mediocre song? What
about "Le Bal des Lazes" with its gothic grandiosity, or "Love Me, Please
Love Me", and so many more.

And where is Jacques Dutronc? Who interpreted one of the best French
song ever made: "Il est 5 heures, Paris s'eveille"?

He was singing about individualism in the sixties, when everybody was
in "peace and love". As a result, thirty years after, his songs finally
find a society in sync with their spirit :-).

> Of the 80's & 90's US-influenced generation, I think VΘronique Sanson
> (ex-Mrs. Steve Stills, no less) and Francis Cabrel stand out as
> singer/songwriters of genuine talent/soul.

And what about Jean-Louis Murat?

> Michel Berger was a very talented harmonist/melodist. His hit song for
> Johnny Haliday,"Quelquechose de Tennessee" (a homage to Tennessee
> Williams...-only in France!), is just about the only listenable "Johnny".
>
> The duo Rita Mitsouko stands out for me as the one hip mid-80's new wave
> band, mostly thanks to singer Catherine Ringer's devil-may-care energy
> and humor. Recommended album: "Le No-comprendo" (exhuberant, funky,
> out-to-lunch chanson).
> It must be said that France just is'nt a nation of bands, the group
> format just never caught on here like it did in the Anglo world. Too
> individualistic (see Napoleon, DeGaulle...)?

You are absolutely right here. I can only remember of one good French
punk band: The Thugs.

    Patrice.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 11:34:38 -0800
From: "Rev. Floyd Heirs" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: david bowie (slight return)

>>>Brian Eno is, as we all know,  god.<<<

Eno also pioneered 'gland rock' when he went offstage to take a
piss with his microphone still turned on a few years back near the
end of a lecture/discussion in Los Angeles.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 11:36:39 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Peter Cusak's MY FAVORITE SOUNDS OF LONDON

    A couple of days ago, Peter Cusak was interviewed on NPR about his new
project: gathering sounds from London selected by various people. It was not
clear if this was made on record (no label was mentioned, and I was listening
to carefully). Does anybody know more on this?

    Thanks,

    Patrice (also waiting for the new compilation from David Toop).

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 11:48:43 -0800
From: "Rev. Floyd Heirs" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Trisha Brown Dancing To Dave Douglas

"Postmodern dance, like jazz, is a quintessentially American art,
and the two make happy bedfellows in El Trilogy, with BrownÆs
predilection for juggling seriousness and play, structure and
improvisation, likely matches to DouglasÆ score, which
incorporates the musicianÆs coughing alongside syncopated poly
rhythms and dense, post-Webern scherzos."

Anyone seen this? She's at UCLA tomorrow night. Should I go? (The
music is recorded not Douglas live.)

Is Matthew jumping Shipp?
http://www.laweekly.com/ink/02/11/music-burk.shtml




- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 11:58:32 -0800
From: Tosh <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: French pock/rop

Patrice's remark about Jacques Dutronc reminded me that I just
purchased a best of collection - mostly his early to mid 60's stuff
with one out-of-site song he wrote with Gainsbourg.  I think he's
great, but what about his stuff he did in the 70's and so forth.  I
know he's an actor (was in one of Godard's films), but is he
consistant with his music.
- --
Tosh Berman
TamTam Books
http://www.tamtambooks.com

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 12:01:19 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: French pock/rop

On Fri, 1 Feb 2002 11:58:32 -0800  Tosh wrote:
>
> Patrice's remark about Jacques Dutronc reminded me that I just
> purchased a best of collection - mostly his early to mid 60's stuff
> with one out-of-site song he wrote with Gainsbourg.  I think he's
> great, but what about his stuff he did in the 70's and so forth.  I
> know he's an actor (was in one of Godard's films), but is he
> consistant with his music.

I can't tell since I mainly know him for his songs from the 60's.

    Patrice (shameful).

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 15:45:22 -0500
From: "Michael Berman" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: French pock/rop

i guess they dont qualify as pop or rock, but im a real fan of les =
negresses vertes.  id love to know more about them, do they still exist =
(I recall hearing the lead guy died?)?



> > It must be said that France just is'nt a nation of bands, the group
> > format just never caught on here like it did in the Anglo world. Too
> > individualistic (see Napoleon, DeGaulle...)?
>=20
> You are absolutely right here. I can only remember of one good French
> punk band: The Thugs.



- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1904 03:00:43 +0100
From: duncan youngerman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re:Serge

Tosh a =E9crit :

> With due and great respect to Duncan, I disagree of course with his
> commentary on Gainsbourg=2E

I did say (or did I) he was brilliant=2E But a little bit too much the
brilliance of a great ad man, IMHO=2E
Maybe I find it a little too respectable/comfortable in France to be the
scato-erotico-anarchist provocateur=2E Rabelais, Sade, Rimbaud,
Lautr=E9amont, Artaud, H=2EMiller, Genet were there=2E Why I never bought
Coluche (comedian who ran for president and almost won) either=2E

Much more daring in the Mayflower-founded USA=2E
Which is why I respect Lenny Bruce or even Eminem, and your defense and
publishing of Gainsbourg!!

Best,
D=2E

>
>
>
> -


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 12:37:19 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Serge

On Sun, 10 Jan 1904 03:00:43 +0100  duncan youngerman wrote:
>
> Maybe I find it a little too respectable/comfortable in France to be the
> scato-erotico-anarchist provocateur. Rabelais, Sade, Rimbaud,

But he was more that that since three of the above qualifiers mainly
apply to the last 20 years of his career. I do not like too much
Gainsbourg toward the end because he became a carricature of himself
(due to the fact you mention: it was too easy for him). But what is
it in light of the 50's, 60's, 70's? Almost three decades of great
songs.

> LautrΘamont, Artaud, H.Miller, Genet were there. Why I never bought
> Coluche (comedian who ran for president and almost won) either.

You miss something by not buying Coluche. Humour in France (as far as
stand up comedians are concerned) was stagnating in the early 70's.
Coluche completely changed the situation (as well as Reiser, Cabu, in
comic strips). Many people were put off by Coluche's vulgarity. At
least in his case the vulgarity was at the service of the humour.

    Patrice.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 12:54:01 -0800
From: Tosh <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re:Serge

>Duncan's commentary is very interesting!  The only thing I can add
>at this point is that I think Gainsbourg wrote beautiful melodies.

Mentioning Lenny Bruce...I don't know if Gainsbourg would serve the
same purpose  or not.  But perhaps yes, since both were in a sense
devoted to their culture as well as being subersive within their
society.  Bruce became destroyed by it (U.S. culture) in the sense
that he took on a huge battle by himself - and I think he was
heartbroken about the situation that he was placed in.  Gainsbourg on
the other hand was someone who survived within his culture (even
though he drinked himself to death) and basically went on doing his
art/craft.

But I don't know, Gainsbourg means a lot to me.  When U.S. people ask
me who Gainsbourg is I usually say he is a cross between Johnny
Rotten and Bob Dylan with the skills of Cole Porter.  And by the way
(if I may say so) is novel is great!



- --
Tosh Berman
TamTam Books
http://www.tamtambooks.com

- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1904 03:49:12 +0100
From: duncan youngerman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: French pock/rop

Gainsbourg did not

> create musical trends, and instead was inpired by them (he was very
> attentive to every new musical movements all over the world, and
> borrowed heavily)=2E This can be perceived as a crticism but it is
> not=2E Gainsbourg's main talent was at playing with words and in
> using new music genres to craft great songs (most of them still
> stands after more than four decades!)=2E

I definitely agree about his being derivative=2E A friend of mine calls that
musical tourism=2E To me, his self is missing, somehow=2E

> The only decent rock made in France was of the
> experimental type (and Magma is the first I can think of)=2E

> Definitely Magma and the few others (Cirkus?) being so progressive and
> instrumentally oriented, they did'nt come to my mind=2E

> > There was a very brief moment of tremendous hope in 1968 (I was 12) that
> > a Great Dawn of francophone pop music on a par with Anglo-american
> > standards was finally about to happen when the song "Lindberg" by Robert
> > Charlebois (Quebec) hit the airwaves: a stunningly inventive
> > Dylan-meets-Pink Floyd hit that stood miles apart from all the phony
> > local production=2E
>
> I missed that totally (and I have the same age :-)=2E

You're (apparently) Canadian and you missed Charlebois?! Were you logging wo=
od?

> Despite some memorable Dylan/Lennonesque attempts ("Je suis un homme",
>  etc=2E), the talented Michel Polnareff did not succeed to do that either=
=2E
>
> How can you reduce Polnareff to one of his most mediocre song? What
> about "Le Bal des Lazes" with its gothic grandiosity, or "Love Me, Please
> Love Me", and so many more=2E

"Je suis un homme" was his popular peak I think, and seems to me a successfu=
l
and one-of-a-kind glam-rock/new-wave ironic anthem, about 5 years before Que=
en,
staying very French in character (the individualist again)=2E

> And where is Jacques Dutronc? Who interpreted one of the best French
> song ever made: "Il est 5 heures, Paris s'eveille"?

Who wrote it, even (at least the music)=2E
Yes, he did some good stuff and I will now proceed to whip myself for having
left him out=2E

> He was singing about individualism in the sixties, when everybody was
> in "peace and love"=2E As a result, thirty years after, his songs finally
> find a society in sync with their spirit :-)=2E

Well, he was doing (a watered down) Dylan's "Subterranian homesick blues",
which, following punk and rap, is as modern as ever=2E

>  Of the 80's & 90's US-influenced generation, I think V=E9ronique Sanson

> (ex-Mrs=2E Steve Stills, no less) and Francis Cabrel stand out as

> singer/songwriters of genuine talent/soul=2E

> And what about Jean-Louis Murat?

The guy has no voice=2E=2E=2E or if he does, he can't use it=2E Who needs th=
at?
There's too much complacency in France for people who can't sing their way o=
ut
of a paper bag and hide behind their supposed intelligence or subversiveness=
=2E

DY=2E

>


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1904 03:59:44 +0100
From: duncan youngerman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Dutronc

>   I
> know he's an actor (was in one of Godard's films), but is he
> consistant with his music.
>
>
> -

He's actually a -very- good actor who's played in films by Zuwlawski
("L'important c'est d'aimer" opposite Romy Schneider) and many others.
His interpretation of Vincent in Maurice Pialat's "Van Gogh" drove me
crazy though (it might have been Pialat's direction, who knows): he
played him like a swinging latin lover...

D.



- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1904 04:06:25 +0100
From: duncan youngerman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Coluche

>
> Many people were put off by Coluche's vulgarity. At
> least in his case the vulgarity was at the service of the humour.
>
>         Patrice.

I've never met a french person who did'nt love Coluche or was put off by his
vulgarity.
And I've never once been able to laugh at his stuff no matter how much I
thought I ought to... (-must be the non-French  -50%- in me).

D.

>
>
> -


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 13:33:26 -0800
From: "carlos torres" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: OT: freestyle fellowship/saul williams

>I don't find anything "trite" or "silly" about him.
>And ... "recycled jibberish"?

as in..his flow, its all been done before, nothing new..or of any interest.
i dont mean to be harsh, like you said, to each his own..i just  didnt enjoy
it when i heard it..what do you think andrew? you've probably come across
it...just wondering what other people think..perhaps i should give it
another shot...or not.

carlos




_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 13:36:12 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: French pock/rop

On Sun, 10 Jan 1904 03:49:12 +0100  duncan youngerman wrote:
>
> > And what about Jean-Louis Murat?
>
> The guy has no voice... or if he does, he can't use it. Who needs that?
> There's too much complacency in France for people who can't sing their way out
> of a paper bag and hide behind their supposed intelligence or subversiveness.

Sounds like the the usual "he can't play his intrument...".

I can think of many great songwriters who are not so good singers (technically,
I mean)...

It is funny that more than forty years ago the new generation of French
singers (Brel, Brassens, etc) was attacked for not having the voice of
Luis Mariano, and Boris Vian in a famous essay put things straight (read:
he ridiculed them).

Maybe Murat cannot sing, but he is able to make haunting songs that are hard
to get rid off (such as one version of "Rouge est mon Sommeil", and the
truly incredible live version of "Polly Jean" on MURAGOSTANG (the one with
reading excerpts from Genet's bio)).

In fact, there are many French singers who do not sing (I specially think
of actors who are pushed in the singing business). But Murat is at least
a songwriter in total control of what he does. And last, many American
friends fell in love with Murat's voice.

    Patrice.

- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V3 #734
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