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Zorn List Digest       Monday, January 28 2002       Volume 03 : Number 712



In this issue:
-
       Re: performance piece for listserv 1:  how to incite a riot.
       Re: performance piece for listserv 1:  how to incite a riot.
       Re: performance piece for listserv 1:  how to incite a riot
       Re: performass piece for listserv 1: how to incite a yawn.
       against my better judgement...
       Bring Back Jon Abbey
       performance art
       Re: Zorn List Digest V3 #711
       RE: Zorn List Digest V3 #711
       electroacoustic list
       RE: Zorn List Digest V3 #711
       Re: New DVDs
       Nays Have It
       Re: Bring Back Jon Abbey
       Bye.
       Baby Please Don't Go Down
       The Ayler Technique
       4'33"
       Re: Bye.
       breaking the silence.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 14:34:41 -0600
From: Craig Rath <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: performance piece for listserv 1:  how to incite a riot.

Ok, I sent my letter to Kate privately to avoid adding anything more
clutter to the crap going on here, but since she decided to respond to it
publicly, I'll add a couple of things here and then I'm done with it.

>i did no such thing as admit that i was trying to incite a reaction.

Check the subject of the e-mail.  That might give you a clue as to where I
got the impression it was meant to incite a reaction.  Do you even read
what you type?

And one other thing about "performance art".  Your "performance piece" from
what I can gather consisted of you making statements, responding to other
peoples' reactions, and then chuckling to yourself at the whole mess.  I'd
like to think I'm pretty open minded when it comes to art, but to me that
ain't it.  It doesn't matter if it is your little "project" here or the one
you claim Zorn did years ago.  In my opinion that is just self-indulgence,
not art.  Performance art where there is no discernable audience other than
the artist isn't art, it's masturbation.


Craig M. Rath
H: [e-mail]
W: [e-mail]

- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 15:43:37 -0500
From: "Jesse Kudler" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: performance piece for listserv 1:  how to incite a riot.

- ----- Original Message -----
From: <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>; <[e-mail]>
Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2002 3:11 PM
Subject: Re: performance piece for listserv 1: how to incite a riot.

> talking ferneyhough, that may be a different story.  hell, let's forward a
> succession of these emails to braxton, lucier, and ferneyhough - all at
> wesleyan university - and see how they react.  and one of my best friends

Well, Ferneyhough doesn't actually have any invovlement with the University.
As for Braxton and Lucier, I can't imagine that they'd take time to read,
and especially respond to, our babble.  They have, you know. . . real stuff
to do.

- -Jesse


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 15:48:47 -0500
From: "&c." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: performance piece for listserv 1:  how to incite a riot

>> l i g h t e n  u p .

I whole heartedly agree with Kate on this count.  I think every one is
slightly at fault here, both the older-timers and the newbies.  Can't
well all just get along? We should use this aggressive energy on
exploring new music, rather than ripping each other new ones.  It's fun
to laugh at yourself; it's even more fun than laughing at others.  I
second the motion to lighten up the Zorn List.

Zach

- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 22:57:01 +0000
From: "thomas chatterton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: performass piece for listserv 1: how to incite a yawn.

>From: [e-mail]
>i'm pretty satisfied knowing that the people
>i'm interested in would be interested, or at least entertained, at what i'm
>doing here.  beyond that, i DO do "serious" music, acoustic and electronic.
>i have done free improv, i have done more serious avant-garde performance
>pieces

Then why not entertain all of us with some of your "serious" music, seems
like we're all ready for a good larf...

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- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 15:07:32 -0800
From: "D Dvb" <[e-mail]>
Subject: against my better judgement...

Someone on another list had asked for recommendations for lists discussing
avant-garde music.  With a slight warning about the high level of
intellectualism (not necessarily a good thing), I mentioned the Zorn-list
because it's the only list I'm on (out of about 10 or so) that's so
informative without most of the silliness of other lists.  Well, I guess
that's out the window.

Having been at the end of one of Jon's condescending barbs myself, I can say
that it's not a good thing to see him leave the list, especially for such a
stupid, pathetic argument.  I've never heard an Erstwhile release and I do
not worship at the altar of AMM but I'd rather read his at-times
condescending, informed opinions than see insults like male-chauvinist pig,
wanker, etc. thrown around (and FYI, I remember a post in which Jon called
out Skip in much harsher manner than whatever it was that started this
tiff).

- --davy
np: The Vandermark 5 - Simpatico....some listmembers have told me that this
album doesn't hold up as well as the Mars-era stuff but I like it just fine.
  Then again, I don't like Ornette or Threadgill so what do I know?

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- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 15:10:14 -0800
From: "Rev. Floyd Errors" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Bring Back Jon Abbey

>>>i'm getting a good chuckle out of how people want to ignore
this, but still
feel the need to publicly tell me how immature i am<<<

Come on people. Drain the reflecting pool. Narcissus will die
without one.

np:   4'33" by John Cage


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 18:38:22 -0500
From: "Jeton Ademaj" <[e-mail]>
Subject: performance art

K8: I always marvel at the bee-swarms that erupt here over various things,
ranging from the musical ("I don't like Ornette" "Your Loss" "I think not"
"you don't think" "no you don't think"......""Ohhhhhh, WE just didn't think
The Other thought, How Wrong We Were!"" "pardon any bad vibes" "no, pardon
me" ""ah, WE pardon Us --Mmmmmmmmmmmm<whew!>"") to the
pseudo-political(check archives). Just remember to not let some people lure
you into 'trolling', because one distinct subtype of it is when someone with
an unpopular view is ganged up on such that they're baited into lashing out.
It's actually a Neu-form of scape-goating, a byproduct of human group
behaviour, a current to surf. Of course, perf. art and trolling (the subtype
of perf art that always leaves everybody alienated n grumpy) bleed into each
other at times, but there's plenty to distinguish them. Like I said,
scrolling thru the Ornette-tiff for particular interests, I found your
'tangelo' interjection sweetly amusing and absurd, and the
"backlash"(ahahahahahahaha) over-wrought, but not surprising.

If the Z-list archives become more easily searchable (I hope) you might want
to check it out and get a better idea of who's who. I think you'll discover
some of the people you're conversing with r creeps, perhaps me myself!
Certainly Efren has established his creepy, twerpy bona-fides. His posts are
a boring marvel of empty snobbery, and casual hypocrisy oozes from him. All
I was sayin', EFREN, is that I agreed with your own assesment of your
general lack of eloquence, and that others will probably argue your points
better. With me everyone gets a set allotment of respect they can either
shrink or grow, your allotment is largely gone...

Someone commented about the z-list being like a big room full of strangers.
"You come in, listen closely, act humble and be respectful"
Humility serves us all, but life is more dynamic than that. Sometimes you
come into a party where u know some people, don't know others, and maybe
feel little need for unqualified humility. If K8 comes in and is (so far as
I've seen) respectfully Hubristic, then for me it's a question of content.
She threw a small firecracker of Art into a Big Discussion About Art, and
she earned an honest chuckle, an extremely valuable thing. An easily
excitable denizen of the room lost his cool when she returned his easy
insult in amplified form, because life is too short and all that. He's
unwilling to merely delete her posts, in his dustcloud a thread about
trolling is suddenly aflame, with every irony there-in intact...let hIr who
is without Sin cast the 1st jibe, etc...

Oh, and some z-content: anybody catch Zorn's NYC improv nights at Tonic? I'm
curious who he put up there and how they were. Also, anyone hear anything
about Zorn taking John Tchai's place in NY Art Quartet?

(Age check: 29 and laughing at the sages)

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- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 23:48:24 +0000
From: "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn List Digest V3 #711

>From: [e-mail]

>my advice to everyone; quit taking life so seriously!  it's so short

Kate,

Stop taking being "unserious" so seriously.
Thanks

>l i g h t e n  u p .

Forced levity is never any FUN!

Bill


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- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 18:54:20 -0500
From: "Zachary Steiner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Zorn List Digest V3 #711

I don't think any one is forcing levity, merely suggesting it.

Zach


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 00:04:38 +0000
From: "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>
Subject: electroacoustic list

I emailed Jon privately, and he mentioned to me that the latest spiff isn't
the only reason he pulled out.  He expressed some potential interest in
joining a list geared to electroacoustic music, particularly electroacoustic
improv.  So I've formed such a list and plan to get the ball rolling in
early March after I return from a trip.  I plan to keep the fat pretty trim
on that list (including my own, I'm ashamed to admit), so if you think there
should be a list for everyone, one that permits digressions on tangelos as
well as one that keeps the discussions meaty, substantive, and serious all
the way down, and if you have specific interests in these areas of music,
then send me a private email in the next month, and I'll add you to the
invitation list when I get back.  I'm hopeful Jon will join as well, and we
can carry on in that vein as before.

Bill



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- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 00:06:46 +0000
From: "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Zorn List Digest V3 #711

>From: "Zachary Steiner" <[e-mail]>

>I don't think any one is forcing levity, merely suggesting it.
>
>Zach
>

But suggesting it rather forcefully by this time Zach.  That's the irony of
it.

_________________________________________________________________
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- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 19:17:50 -0500 (EST)
From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: New DVDs

Joe:

These date from the early to mid 1980s with the usual
suspects on board. TVO (Television Ontario)here in
Toronto broadcast a whole bunch of shows from that
Fest at one time (there's also a Herbie Hancock and
some other stuff) Camera angles and pacing is pretty
primitive from a 2002 perspective. Probably someone at
the Montreal Jazz Fest site would have more extensive
info.

regards,


Ken Waxman


- --- Moudry <[e-mail]> wrote:
> Does anyone know about these two new DVDs that
> showed up this morning
> on Ken Crane's DVD Planet weekly listing?
>
> Carla Bley: Montreal Jazz Festival     [$14.99]
> Charlie Haden: Liberation Music Orchestra: Montreal
> Jazz Festival     [$14.99]
>
> What year(s)? Band members?
>
>

=====
Ken Waxman
[e-mail]
www.jazzword.com - Jazz/improv news, CD reviews and photos

______________________________________________________________________
Web-hosting solutions for home and business! http://website.yahoo.ca

- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 16:39:44 -0800
From: "Rev. Floyd Errors" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Nays Have It

>>>With a slight warning about the high level of
intellectualism<<<

All in favor of dumbing down........


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 17:15:11 -0800
From: Skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Bring Back Jon Abbey

> From: "Rev. Floyd Errors" <[e-mail]>
> Reply-To: "Rev. Floyd Errors" <[e-mail]>
> Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 15:10:14 -0800
> To: <[e-mail]>
> Subject: Bring Back Jon Abbey
>
> np:   4'33" by John Cage

possibly the most user-friendly Cage piece for those not into avant-garde
music.

skip h


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 23:27:09 -0500
From: "Steve Smith" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Bye.

Folks:

I signed on this evening for the first time in a few days and downloaded
everything that had gone on, starting with Jon's overly harsh barbs towards
Kate, which, knowing Jon pretty well, were rendered all the more harsh
because he's sat and simmered through the inane performance art pieces in
progress and simply snapped. No excuse, but it's just as understandable a
reaction as any. My own reaction was simply to hit the delete button, but I
know Jon always tended to take these things more seriously than did I.

Kate: I'm glad you got some personal support mail. Jon was wrong to slam you
in the way that he did. But you don't know a damn thing about him, either,
and you proved it.

It got stupid and ugly and then it was over, and it certainly wasn't enough
to make me consider resigning in solidarity.

However.

If Tony's smug post under the title "performance art," with its sneering
general condescension and its ugly ad hominem attacks towards Efren, is
indicative of what we can expect in the way of discourse now, then all I can
say is, well, it's been fun, and I hope some of you keep in touch. Mike:
Thanks for absolutely everything for the last however many years.

Tony: Smoke some more doobage and have a good giddy laugh at my expense now.

Yours,
Steve Smith
[e-mail]


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 20:43:30 -0800
From: "s~Z" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Baby Please Don't Go Down

Jesus. This list has been the least inflammatory of any list I
have been upon, with the exception of the Gaddis-list, which is
much less active. It is amazing to me that a bit of nonsense and
nastiness like that of the past few days is all it takes to send
the likes of Smith and Abbey (also my favorite salad dressing)
running. These flamewars are relatively rare here and blow over
quickly. Personally, I just used my handy filters and blockers to
prevent email from the undesirables from reaching my mailbox. So,
anyway, how are the two new Bobby Previte's? Should I get them?


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 15:54:45 +1100
From: "Adam Rock" <[e-mail]>
Subject: The Ayler Technique

I was checking out Brotzmann's bio at www.allmusic.com when I came across
mention of the Ayler technique (biting the reed etc). Can anyone direct me
to an online resource where I can read about this technique in greater
depth?

Thanks,

Adam


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 00:15:10 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: 4'33"

In a message dated 01.27.02 20:13:05, [e-mail] writes:

>> np:   4'33" by John Cage
>possibly the most user-friendly Cage piece for those not into avant-garde
>music.

[thinks, but doesn't say aloud, this is the performance piece k8 is
performing on the listserv for at least the next 24 hours.]



- -----
[ .n o t h i n g  i s  w h a t  i s  s a i d. ]

.k a t e  p e t e r s o n.
.c o m p o s e r / p e r f o r m e r.
<A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/uforbk8/kate.html">
http://www.geocities.com/uforbk8/kate.html</A>
<A HREF="http://www.icefoundation.org">http://www.icefoundation.org</A>
(roundtable)

- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 22:55:21 -0800
From: Skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Bye.

Dear Steve:

Do us a favor and don't go packing just yet.  ZORN is really an acronymn for
"zealous, overly-opinionated, retentive ne'er-do-well's", and you've got to
expect some nastiness from time to time.

I did think Kate was treated a little harshly.  I also thought one of the
points of this list was for those with greater listening experience might
provide a little education.  Crucifying someone for not being in touch with
a large catalog of music is harsh.  You need a little youth to put some
blood into the proceedings.  Youth carries a touch of impetuousness with it.
Small price.  Youth should also know when to pull it back a little.  There's
a huge difference between expressing/defending an unpopular decision and
just plain saying/writing things that will piss people off.  A little
contoversy is good and performs a function.  It gets people expressing
stuff.  Even if they raise their voices, there's some discourse.  But
there's some stuff that seems calculated to irritate.

I've been called "stupid" at least once on this list by at least one person,
who also told me I oughta stick to just saying what I like, and I refuse to
get into a pissing contest with anybody just because I didn't bow to one of
his Gods.  So be it.  You expect that sort of thing on a list whose very
being means there are going to be strong opinions.  And you take it for what
it is -- someone getting mad at an email.  But that does not mean you flame
somebody (although I admitted he was hard to love).  And I am speaking in
the face of a direct insult.

Unfortunately, a week of bad manners has cost this group dearly.

Jon's exit is a drag.  Even tho his taste and mine are world's apart, he
knows his stuff, and I used him as a compass to a lot of music that I won't
say I've come to like any better, but at least that I understand a bit more
for his sharing.  Steve -- yours is even worse.  I looked to you as my
parakeet --ie I bought a few things largely because you raved about them on
the list.  Also, you knew your stuff from all sides.

Losing two guys with this much positive community influence is bad for
business.

Anybody has a reasonable problem with this posting and I will gladly
unsubscribe.  I just thought it was the right stuff to say.

skip h
NP: randy weston -- "cabana bamboo highlife" what the hell album is this
from and is it in print?


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 02:24:41 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: breaking the silence.

alright, i vowed to 24 hours of silence but i can't resist.

why have a small succession of posts involving me caused such outburst?  it
as though i am the straw that broke the proverbial camel's back through
something that was already taking place here on zorn-list.  what's the deal?

i love listening to people argue their opinions here, sound off about new
music both positive and negative, and the likes.  i also like to do the same.
 while i feel i did nothing wrong (do unto others as you'd have done to
you...  blah blah - get bashed in public, bash back harder - it's the fight
or flight thing that is instilled in young FEMALE composers; i stress FEMALE
because in academia the men are viewed as equals and we either have to
disappear into nothingness or be feminazi and nothing in-between), i remain
interested, entertained, and somewhat amused that something this trite has
been deemed serious enough for "old-timers" to dump their subscriptions.
c'mon, folks...  we're all here to learn from one another - the idea of
avant-garde in general is to have an open mind.  now, if that means every
post i make annoys the shit out of you and you want to delete it, go for it.
but lecturing me about my listserv maturity and then making incredibly silly
declarations of How The List Has Gone To Hell (TM) and grand exits is
something reserved for divas at the Met and the truly closed-minded elite.

perhaps you should reconsider both your position on my maturity and how you
choose to handle the situation.  i have.  :)

love,
  k8.

p.s. - would anyone care for a tangelo?
<duck>


- -----
[ .n o t h i n g  i s  w h a t  i s  s a i d. ]

.k a t e  p e t e r s o n.
.c o m p o s e r / p e r f o r m e r.
<A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/uforbk8/kate.html">
http://www.geocities.com/uforbk8/kate.html</A>
<A HREF="http://www.icefoundation.org">http://www.icefoundation.org</A>
(roundtable)

- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V3 #712
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