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From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest)
To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Zorn List Digest V3 #693
Reply-To: zorn-list
Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Precedence: bulk
Zorn List Digest Monday, January 21 2002 Volume 03 : Number 693
In this issue:
-
Re: Ornette
Re: who understands harmolodics?
Re: who understands harmolodics?
Re: North Indian classical recommendations
Re: who understands harmolodics?
Re: who understands harmolodics?
REMOVE
Re: who understands harmolodics?
Re: who understands harmolodics?
Re: who understands harmolodics?
Re: who understands harmolodics?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 12:22:40 -0800
From: Skip Heller <velaires@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Ornette
> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.
- --MS_Mac_OE_3094460560_87501_MIME_Part
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Does anyone here remember the Ornette conversation a couple of years back,
where everyone was raving about how good he was?
Ornette was my introduction to all that weird and difficult kind of jazz.
And I'm certain without him, I wouldn't have come to Zorn as early as I did.
I'd like to second the previous poster on the point that I too have always
found Ornette's music to be profoundly emotional and moving. Not having the
"ear" that others on this list have, I don't notice or mind the
"out-of-tuneness" which may seem like sacrilege to some of you. He doesn't
sound any more out of tune to me than many early blues music which I (and
many others) find closely related. For what it's worth Ornette has always
said that he wants to be known more for his compositions, anyone. What do
you naysayers think of his compositions as opposed to his playing? I do have
to agree with many, that much of his '70s fusion type stuff, is not great,
but I still hear individual fantastic pieces. And as much as I like his
"return" to acoustic music, I do think that it is not as challenging as his
early music. But I find it beautiful in a different way.
>>Personally, I think there are a small handfull of okay compositions in there
- -- "Lonely Woman", "Ramblin'", and "Humpty Dumpty" come to mind. But they
don't hit me over the head the way Minugus does.
Now to really upset people. I have tried repeatedly, over some 20 years to
"get" Cecil Taylor. Based on my musical interests, I understand that I
should love him. But, he has always left me cold. To my ears, it is all
clinical technique, and no soul.
>>A lot of it can be. The guy made too many records. But have you checked out
the first quartet with Lacy?
Maybe, it's just a question of taste:-) Hey, I still love the Sex Pistols.
>>Who doesn't?
skip h
- --MS_Mac_OE_3094460560_87501_MIME_Part
Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Re: Ornette</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE>Does anyone here remember the Ornette conversation a couple of =
years back, where everyone was raving about how good he was?<BR>
Ornette was my introduction to all that weird and difficult kind of jazz. A=
nd I'm certain without him, I wouldn't have come to Zorn as early as I did. =
I'd like to second the previous poster on the point that I too have always f=
ound Ornette's music to be profoundly emotional and moving. Not having the &=
quot;ear" that others on this list have, I don't notice or mind the &qu=
ot;out-of-tuneness" which may seem like sacrilege to some of you. He do=
esn't sound any more out of tune to me than many early blues music which I (=
and many others) find closely related. For what it's worth Ornette has alway=
s said that he wants to be known more for his compositions, anyone. What do =
you naysayers think of his compositions as opposed to his playing? I do have=
to agree with many, that much of his '70s fusion type stuff, is not great, =
but I still hear individual fantastic pieces. And as much as I like his &quo=
t;return" to acoustic music, I do think that it is not as challenging a=
s his early music. But I find it beautiful in a different way.<BR>
<BR>
>>Personally, I think there are a small handfull of okay compositions=
in there -- "Lonely Woman", "Ramblin'", and "Humpt=
y Dumpty" come to mind. But they don't hit me over the head the w=
ay Minugus does.<BR>
<BR>
Now to really upset people. I have tried repeatedly, over some 20 years to =
"get" Cecil Taylor. Based on my musical interests, I understand th=
at I should love him. But, he has always left me cold. To my ears, it is all=
clinical technique, and no soul.<BR>
<BR>
>>A lot of it can be. The guy made too many records. But =
have you checked out the first quartet with Lacy?<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>Maybe, it's just a question of taste:-) Hey, I still love the =
Sex Pistols. <BR>
<BR>
>>Who doesn't?<BR>
<BR>
skip h
</BODY>
</HTML>
- --MS_Mac_OE_3094460560_87501_MIME_Part--
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 12:27:14 -0800
From: Skip Heller <velaires@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: who understands harmolodics?
>
>
> But I'm left concluding from this exchange
> that you understand very little about harmolodics.
>
>
> do you understand harmolodics? (bill or anyone) and if so could someone
> direct me to a source that would be good for understanding it... or at least
> explain it to me. all the interviews and books where it's been mentioned
> are so vague that it seemed a little bullshitty to me. but this is only an
> impression. i am open and willing to change my mind on this.
> i just had the impression from Ornette interviews that it was just this
> vague b.s. idea given a fancy name to draw attention. so somebody prove
> this wrong.
> thanks,
> -samuel
> -
>
Even that Ornette advocate Francis Davis (a freind of mine who I mostly
disagree with) said it was probably a name he came up with after the fact.
I think it is a vague, bullshitty systems theory. But some guys -- Cherry,
Ulmer, etc -- have been grounded enough in basic literature and technique to
be able to apply it and do something with it.
skip h
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 15:47:23 -0500
From: Mark Saleski <marks@foliage.com>
Subject: Re: who understands harmolodics?
i saw Ornette & Prime Time several years back in boston.
from the little that i had read about harmolodics i pretty much got what
i expected: each player can chose to improvise off of any other player.
some of the tunes started this way. it kinda remined me of an aural
depiction of mandelbrot 'patterns'.
what really amazed me was when they would get some momentum going....and
i would be thinking that they had descended into pure caos...and, gee,
how are they going to get themselves out of this? then, going on some
cue that i couldn't see (or hear) everybody would stop...a slight
pause....and then they would take off into another direction.
cool as hell.
mark
- --
Mark Saleski - marks@foliage.com | http://www.foliage.com/~marks
"Music is spiritual. The music business is not." - Van Morrison
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 12:46:35 -0800 (PST)
From: Scott Handley <thesubtlebody@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: North Indian classical recommendations
- --- Herb Levy <herb@eskimo.com> wrote:
> I'm (very) partial to Hariprasad Chaurasia who
> plays bansuri (bamboo
> flute) (especially the ragas recorded for Nimbus) &
> Ali Akbar Khan
> who plays sarod (with lots of reissued older things
> coming out from a
> label called AMMP).
Chiming in:
I saw Chaurasia in New Orleans on a very rainy night.
The power went out mid-performance, and with it the
house lights (except for dim emergency lights) and the
electric tamboura drone. With no PA, the musicians
did not hesitate for even a moment, but carried on in
the near-dark, enhanced by the pure acoustics, sans
PA. It was breathtaking and perfect; the 30-40 minute
raga seemed to end too soon. Time felt suspended.
Perhaps a little more help to you,
http://www.shrimatis.com is a great place to shop for
Indian music. The proprieters seem very friendly and
helpful and have made many great recommendations for
me and indulged my incessant questions patiently.
There are a number of ok-to-mediocre recordings of
pretty itense performances by the masters on the All
India Radio series, all at pretty incredibly low
prices ($5-8 each), though I had to dig a bit to find
these. A cursory check yielded some under "T-Series"
in the "Instrumental" PDF catalog. Herb mentioned ALi
Akbar Khan's AMMP label; I have the installments of
the "Signature Series" and have found them all to be
outstanding, particularly the duo performance between
Khan and the sitarist Nikhil Banerjee (SigSeries
Vol.4); that dash toward the end is lickety-split fun.
- -----s
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail!
http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 14:58:27 -0600
From: "Robert A. Pleshar" <rpleshar@midway.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: who understands harmolodics?
I think it almost certainly is a theory that was create post creation of
the music. The question that's not being asked, though, is why was Ornette
compelled to make a theory to describe his music? I know he took a lot of
heat when he went to NY and maybe creating an obscurant theoretical system
was a way to get some critics to back off. Folk musicians usually aren't
required to describe the theory of their music, as far as I know. (I could
be entirely wrong here). Anyway, it seems to me that no one should have
been forcing him to explain his music theoretically any more than Dock
Boggs or Skip James or Lightnin' Hopkins or Serbian brass bands or Uzbek
dutar players should be forced to describe their music theoretically.
Does "knowing" that harmolodics exist enhance a listeners appreciation of
the music?
Rob
At 12:27 PM 1/21/02 -0800, Skip Heller wrote:
>Even that Ornette advocate Francis Davis (a freind of mine who I mostly
>disagree with) said it was probably a name he came up with after the fact.
>
>I think it is a vague, bullshitty systems theory. But some guys -- Cherry,
>Ulmer, etc -- have been grounded enough in basic literature and technique to
>be able to apply it and do something with it.
>
>skip h
>
>
>-
>
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 16:08:38 -0500
From: James Hale <jhale@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: who understands harmolodics?
"Robert A. Pleshar" wrote:
> I think it almost certainly is a theory that was create post creation of
> the music. The question that's not being asked, though, is why was Ornette
> compelled to make a theory to describe his music?
One should never underestimate Ornette's understanding of how the game is played
in terms of attracting media attention.
Despite the generally-held feeling that he is removed from the day-to-day, he
has shown time and again that he's a canny PR man in his own right. And it says
a lot about the jazz media that we've been asking him the same questions for
more than 40 years.
James Hale
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 16:09:01 EST
From: PaanKu@aol.com
Subject: REMOVE
how do i get removed from this list? i cant deal with an overstuffed mailbox
every day and i cant deal with having some 300 emails to root through if i
miss checking my mail for a single evening. please, whoever has the power,
take me off
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 13:46:10 -0800
From: Skip Heller <velaires@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: who understands harmolodics?
> "Robert A. Pleshar" wrote:
>
>> I think it almost certainly is a theory that was create post creation of
>> the music. The question that's not being asked, though, is why was Ornette
>> compelled to make a theory to describe his music?
>
> One should never underestimate Ornette's understanding of how the game is
> played
> in terms of attracting media attention.
> Despite the generally-held feeling that he is removed from the day-to-day, he
> has shown time and again that he's a canny PR man in his own right. And it
> says
> a lot about the jazz media that we've been asking him the same questions for
> more than 40 years.
>
> James Hale
>
>
> -
>
That's always be exactly my perception of the Ornette situation.
skip h
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 13:55:49 -0800
From: Skip Heller <velaires@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: who understands harmolodics?
> I think it almost certainly is a theory that was create post creation of
> the music. The question that's not being asked, though, is why was Ornette
> compelled to make a theory to describe his music?
Because he had a jazz press to deal with.
I know he took a lot of
> heat when he went to NY and maybe creating an obscurant theoretical system
> was a way to get some critics to back off. Folk musicians usually aren't
> required to describe the theory of their music, as far as I know. (I could
> be entirely wrong here).
In some places, he took heat. But he definitely was fashionable among a
certain influential crowd.
Anyway, it seems to me that no one should have
> been forcing him to explain his music theoretically any more than Dock
> Boggs or Skip James or Lightnin' Hopkins or Serbian brass bands or Uzbek
> dutar players should be forced to describe their music theoretically.
If you go into the world of jazz -- which is covered by the jazz press --
and purport to be doing something original, you'd better be prepared to give
good soundbyte.
Boggs, James, and the others didn't have DOWNBEAT circa 1961 to deal with.
Just think of the shitstorm that come down on proven players like Trane.
Media savvy does not hurt.
> Does "knowing" that harmolodics exist enhance a listeners appreciation of
> the music?
Probably it shouldn't.
skip h
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 16:17:12 -0600
From: "Robert A. Pleshar" <rpleshar@midway.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: who understands harmolodics?
Yes, I am certainly aware of these facts. The question is why is the world
of jazz different than the world of folk or rock or blues? What is it about
the culture of jazz writing that makes these the questions that get asked?
And why is it that the answers don't seem to satisfy the critics most of
the time?
Is Ornette a primitive or a theoretical mastermind? Can't he be both or
neither? Are these even the right categories or are they imposed by
"western" standards and don't even really fit? Does one need tons of
theoretical knowledge in order to play music in a certain style? Leaving
out ones taste for Ornette's playing, is it not conceivable that he did
come up with a new way of playing and putting things together and maybe was
not able to explain it very well?
Rob
At 01:55 PM 1/21/02 -0800, Skip Heller wrote:
>
>
>> I think it almost certainly is a theory that was create post creation of
>> the music. The question that's not being asked, though, is why was Ornette
>> compelled to make a theory to describe his music?
>
>Because he had a jazz press to deal with.
>
> I know he took a lot of
>> heat when he went to NY and maybe creating an obscurant theoretical system
>> was a way to get some critics to back off. Folk musicians usually aren't
>> required to describe the theory of their music, as far as I know. (I could
>> be entirely wrong here).
>
>In some places, he took heat. But he definitely was fashionable among a
>certain influential crowd.
>
> Anyway, it seems to me that no one should have
>> been forcing him to explain his music theoretically any more than Dock
>> Boggs or Skip James or Lightnin' Hopkins or Serbian brass bands or Uzbek
>> dutar players should be forced to describe their music theoretically.
>
>If you go into the world of jazz -- which is covered by the jazz press --
>and purport to be doing something original, you'd better be prepared to give
>good soundbyte.
>
>Boggs, James, and the others didn't have DOWNBEAT circa 1961 to deal with.
>Just think of the shitstorm that come down on proven players like Trane.
>Media savvy does not hurt.
>
>
>> Does "knowing" that harmolodics exist enhance a listeners appreciation of
>> the music?
>
>Probably it shouldn't.
>
>skip h
>
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 14:44:05 -0800
From: Skip Heller <velaires@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: who understands harmolodics?
> Yes, I am certainly aware of these facts. The question is why is the world
> of jazz different than the world of folk or rock or blues? What is it about
> the culture of jazz writing that makes these the questions that get asked?
> And why is it that the answers don't seem to satisfy the critics most of
> the time?
The culture of rock is largely the same at this point. The world of jazz
was penetrated by intellectuals who wanted to turn it into an intellectually
documentable form. Jazz writers, who are largely intellectuals, relate to
jazz as an intellectual endeavor. Unfortunately, this has lead to a
dismissal of a lot of jazz, which can't really be reduced to
intellectualism. And I say reduced because the only way to get something to
fit into an "ism", you have to make it smaller.
I think the largest reason critics are unsatisfied with answers is that few
musicians speak English as well as they speak music. Cannonball Adderley
and Dave Brubeck are the grand exceptions to this. But few people are as
good at explaining what they do as they are at doing it. Just as very few
great muscians are also universally considered great teachers (and Joe
Morello is the cardinal exception to this, apparently).
> Is Ornette a primitive or a theoretical mastermind? Can't he be both or
> neither?
He goes through great pains to present himself as the former. If that's any
yardstick.
Are these even the right categories or are they imposed by
> "western" standards and don't even really fit?
Well, I think Ornette made sure he was dealing with those standards, just by
the way he dealt with the press over the years.
Does one need tons of
> theoretical knowledge in order to play music in a certain style?
I don't know about tons, but you need a certain understanding of the rules
that regulate form, otherwise you're not transcending form, you're jerking
off.
(Think about any form, regardless of style, as a kind of baseball diamond,
and then think about running the bases in a different order. You would need
motivation and a certain tactical reason to do stuff like that in order for
it to make sense with regards to the form of baseball. Same goes for music,
whether you're putting extra bars in a 12 bar blues, introducing upper
partials in a bluegrass context, or whatever. Just "breaking rules" doesn't
accomplish anything. But extending the tradition by EXTENDING RATHER THAN
IGNORING the tactical practice is where the innovation comes in, whether
you're bringing an electric guitar to a style that never had one before
[such as T-Bone Walker did] or doing away with symmetrical time as a
tracable pulse within the music [as Tristano did].)
Leaving
> out ones taste for Ornette's playing, is it not conceivable that he did
> come up with a new way of playing and putting things together and maybe was
> not able to explain it very well?
Was it all that new, tho? The props don't usually go to Tristano for the
first intentionally free jazz attempts (no harmony, the only predetermined
thing was soloing order). And the "playing off each other's line
intuitively" tactic can be heard in most jazz records made by 1927.
The answer is yes, but, even more, "Yes how?"
skip h
- -
------------------------------
End of Zorn List Digest V3 #693
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