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Zorn List Digest       Monday, January 21 2002       Volume 03 : Number 692



In this issue:
-
       fine bootlegs (was RE: Zorn List Change)
       Re: Fwd: Ornette
       Ornette wrong title
       Re: Ornette
       re:ornette
       Re: Ornette wrong title
       RE: Fwd: Ornette
       RE: Ornette etc.
       who understands harmolodics?
       RE: RE: Zorn List Change? (PLEASE READ)
       RE: who understands harmolodics?
       Re: Zorn List Change? (PLEASE READ)
       RE: who understands harmolodics?
       Re: who understands harmolodics?
       Re: Odp: Odp: Ornette Coleman Is God
       Re: Ornette
       Re: who understands harmolodics?
       Re: free jazz (was spontaneous performance/composition)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 08:39:39 -0800 (PST)
From: Scott Handley <[e-mail]>
Subject: fine bootlegs (was RE: Zorn List Change)

> JMY is (or was, it seems) Jazz Music Yesterday, a
> European quasi-bootleg
> label....3) Miles Davis - No
> Blues.

Neither here nor there, but I distinctly remember Dave
DOuglas making much ado about this very bootleg
(IIRC)in some interview or some such feature.  He
referred to it as being full of eight-minute Wayne
Shorter solos that made avalanches of sense.

A tidbit, from caffeine-soaked memory,

- -----s

__________________________________________________
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- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 16:38:37 +0000
From: "thomas chatterton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Ornette

>From: EfrΘn del Valle <[e-mail]>
>
>
>I've always thought that Taylor is precisely all soul
>and I find his playing absolutely "dirty"...

Ha! Must be all that time he spent with James Brown...

_________________________________________________________________
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- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 07:52:25 -0800
From: Tosh <[e-mail]>
Subject: Ornette wrong title

Ooops, It's 'Lonely Woman' not 'Lonely Lady.'  Sorry!
- --
Tosh Berman
TamTam Books
http://www.tamtambooks.com

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 08:46:54 -0800 (PST)
From: Scott Handley <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Ornette

- --- William York <[e-mail]> wrote:
>[speaking of the Ornette box BEAUTY IS A RARE THING]
That said, my favorite quote in there
> is from Monk: "Man, that
> cat is nuts!"

The photo accompanying this quote is so absolutely
perfect, it nearly warrants purchase of the boxset
alone.  I fully intend to make an iron-on transfer
T-shirt, right after I complete my starf**king "Keith
Rowe is fly t-shirt.  Hell yes I will.

- -----s, too much time on hands

__________________________________________________
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- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1904 15:23:50 +0100
From: duncan youngerman <[e-mail]>
Subject: re:ornette

What about Ornette's "Skies of America" for string orchestra?
I remember enjoying that or at least feeling it to be 1at least 100
times more authentic and inspiring than anything Grover Washington could
ever come up with.
I'd have to hear it again after all these years. But there's a kind of
mad reason, or intuitive intellectualism in O.C.s music (early at least)
which I found and still find stimulating, and which I feel deserves more
respect than it's been getting from some here.

DY.



- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 10:12:59 -0800
From: "Rev. Floyd Errors" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Ornette wrong title

>>>Ooops, It's 'Lonely Woman' not 'Lonely Lady.'  Sorry!<<<

Not to worry. It's easy to get Sinatra and Coleman mixed up.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 13:53:51 -0500
From: "Steve Smith" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Fwd: Ornette

Spencer A. Richards: A couple of years ago you were rehearsing with Ornette,
how was that for you as an experience, learning to play someone else's
music?

Cecil Taylor: It was an interesting experience, interesting in that Ornette
arranged for me to have a Bosendorfer and I worked on the music for about
three days. And just before he came in, the thought entered my mind, that
"Ornette might not be happy with what you've done with that." So he heard me
play and he said, "Oh, no, no, I want more triads." So that necessitated me
reworking the piece; so he was rather patient and after about an hour and a
half, he played this music and my respect for him became even more profound,
when I saw all the music he had made on these triads. So then an hour later
I was ready to proceed. My interest in playing with him was really to see if
I could confound that rhythm section of his. And using the information that
is gleaned from Marvin Gaye I started, and Ornette said to me, "There's too
much activity in your left hand." Well! It was over.

May 1988, from liner notes to 'Live in Vienna' (Leo)

- -----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail]
[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of thomas
chatterton

>From: EfrΘn del Valle <[e-mail]>
>
>
>I've always thought that Taylor is precisely all soul
>and I find his playing absolutely "dirty"...

Ha! Must be all that time he spent with James Brown...


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 14:22:16 -0500
From: "josephneff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Ornette etc.

Hello,
     ...this has been an interesting exchange, and I'll chime in w/ the
opinion that Ornette's music never seemed particularly "out-there" or odd to
me. I'd heard both Cecil's "Winged Serpent" on Soul Note and Ayler's "Love
Cry" previous to encountering Coleman. When I bought "Free Jazz", I
recognized that it was unique from nearly all the jazz that had came before,
but I still heard overt connections to tradition, or it still sounded
"jazzy". Taylor's "Winged Serpent", which I plucked from a local cut-out bin
when I was about a year out of high school, sounded unlike anything I'd ever
heard before, and while I knew from reading that it WAS jazz, I found the
only way I could connect it to jazz was through the instruments being used.
My reaction wasn't negative, and I kept listening and broadening the amount
of jazz in my collection, and playing it for other people. After a while, I
tended to get the feeling that trained musicians tended to dislike Coleman
more than Taylor, and that casual music fans (or people who don't actively
collect music) could warm to Ornette, while Taylor was almost always a
source of irritation ("Can we listen to something else?" "This sounds like a
band warming up!")
    Me, I'll agree that Taylor's lifetime (as another lister put it) is one of
the high points of 20th century music, and that Coleman's Atlantic period is
quite astounding (yeah, "Lonely Woman" conjures an ache that I've never felt
from another jazz tune. For a long time, that was the cut that I'd use to
introduce the curious to Ornette's work). I also like "Town Hall 1962" on
ESP, "New York Is Now!" on Blue Note, the Columbia reissues "Skies of
America" and "The Complete Science Fiction Sessions" and the A&M/Verve
"Dancing In Your Head". I've heard some circa 1980's material that did very
little for me.
    After trying to decide who I value more, Archie Shepp or The Howlin' Wolf,
I've concluded that I wouldn't want to be w/out either of them, particularly
Impulse/BYG Shepp, or The Wolf that dropped bombs like "Moanin' at Midnight"
or "Cadillac Daddy".

    I remain....

    Joseph

    NP: Jon Raskin Quartet- "The Bass & The Bird Pond" CD
    NR: William Gaddis- "Carpenter's Gothic"


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 13:10:27 -0600
From: "Samuel Quentin" <[e-mail]>
Subject: who understands harmolodics?

But I'm left concluding from this exchange
that you understand very little about harmolodics.


do you understand harmolodics? (bill or anyone) and if so could someone
direct me to a source that would be good for understanding it... or at least
explain it to me.  all the interviews and books where it's been mentioned
are so vague that it seemed a little bullshitty to me.  but this is only an
impression. i am open and willing to change my mind on this.
  i just had the impression from Ornette interviews that it was just this
vague b.s. idea given a fancy name to draw attention.  so somebody prove
this wrong.
  thanks,
    -samuel
- -







_________________________________________________________________
Join the worldÆs largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
http://www.hotmail.com


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 14:12:15 -0500
From: "Steve Smith" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: RE: Zorn List Change? (PLEASE READ)

Your point, Bill, is cogent and well-stated, as always. I guess I'm just
particularly sensitive to the issue because I write for a living, and every
journalist can tell you about instances in which an idea floated out there
"privately" ended up in print with someone else's byline attached. (There
have been a few particularly egregious examples at Times - none of which, I
might add, were instigated by any staff writer.) But I suppose the notion
that a mailing list is in any way a "private" conversation (even among the
700 of us here!) is foolish - an "illusion of safety," as it were.

I hereby withdraw my request regarding the archives. If someone were to
discover them and join us, that would be great. And while I would not want
my ideas and rhetoric "stolen" outright, if someone were to discover them
and use them in that way, it would serve me right for not pushing the idea
out there into print myself. And if, as you say, someone discovers an idea
that makes them write something I/we didn't consider, then that would indeed
be a fine thing. The possibilities for positive effect had escaped me
momentarily - thanks for quashing my paranoia!

Steve Smith
[e-mail]
NP - Mahler, Symphony No. 7 - San Francisco Sym/Tilson Thomas (SFS Media)

- -----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail]
[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Bill Ashline

I don't know, Steve.  Do you really think that a mailing list houses
intellectual property?  There are actually procedures in which information
from such a list must be documented in formal papers.  If people scanning
the lists for information and thinking about music actually find something
useful, advancing the cause of the music in the process, what's the harm?
If somebody should want to steal my rhetoric/ideas and put something into
print, they can have it.  I didn't get it all by myself anyway.  We're all
collective authors.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 14:16:36 -0500
From: "Joeseph Simon" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: who understands harmolodics?

Isn't it improvising inbetween a set structure.  Inbetween notes, doing
improvisation???

Joe Simon

- -----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail]
[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Samuel Quentin
Sent: Monday, January 21, 2002 2:10 PM
To: [e-mail]
Subject: who understands harmolodics?




But I'm left concluding from this exchange
that you understand very little about harmolodics.


do you understand harmolodics? (bill or anyone) and if so could someone
direct me to a source that would be good for understanding it... or at le=
ast
explain it to me.  all the interviews and books where it's been mentioned
are so vague that it seemed a little bullshitty to me.  but this is only =
an
impression. i am open and willing to change my mind on this.
  i just had the impression from Ornette interviews that it was just this
vague b.s. idea given a fancy name to draw attention.  so somebody prove
this wrong.
  thanks,
    -samuel
- -







_________________________________________________________________
Join the world=92s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
http://www.hotmail.com


- -



- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 11:18:10 -0800 (PST)
From: [e-mail] (m. rizzi)
Subject: Re: Zorn List Change? (PLEASE READ)

    Thanks for the comments Steve...

Steve Smith, demi-God and Icon sez:
>
>ANYTHING that makes Mike's life easier is okay by me.

>Go with Mailman, but keep our thoughts private, is my thought.

    Sadly, we can't have both searchable and private
    archives for the zorn-list. They go together since
    google.com is the provider of searching capability
    for xmission.

    I'd like to point out that the current zorn-list
    archives are not private. Anyone can browse into
    them from the zorn-list website right now.

    mike rizzi



- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 13:22:58 -0600
From: "Samuel Quentin" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: who understands harmolodics?

Isn't it improvising inbetween a set structure.  Inbetween notes, doing
improvisation???


  if that's the case then i don't see what's so hard to understand about it.
  an original idea for it's time but i don't see why it requires the fancy
name.
  -Samuel



_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 19:46:13 +0000
From: "thomas chatterton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: who understands harmolodics?

>From: "Samuel Quentin" <[e-mail]>
>
>
>do you understand harmolodics? (bill or anyone) and if so could someone
>direct me to a source that would be good for understanding it...

Don't know if I understand harmolodics in the theoretical sense, but as I
mentioned earlier, seeing the original Prime Time band gave me a chance to
experience the sound of it, which to me seemed relatively simple (in
theory!) but very complex and difficult to pull off in practice, That is,
each instrumental voice plays a lead melodic(solo) line that is also
relative harmonically and rhythmically to what the other soloists are
playing. So we have harmonic melodies (melodic harmonies?), that's my
rudimentary grasp of the concept.
Once again, it's unfortunate there are no recordings that do that Prime Time
band justice (and certainly the second edition of that band with the
keyboardists was pure shite!). Incidentally, didn't the
jazz-rock-blues-harmolodic guitarist Blood Ulmer, (whose last album some on
this list seem to favour)  serve his apprenticeship with Ornette?

np: Aztec Gameshow Death Ritual



_________________________________________________________________
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http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 12:07:11 -0800
From: Skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Odp: Odp: Ornette Coleman Is God

>
>> The 88 band was kind of the height of great technique/not much fun
>> personality for me.  I think his best band was the scaled down 74 line-up.
>> (YCDTOSA, Vol 2).
>
> I like the 88 band much. The bras arrangements are amazing. I do not like
> the 'funk band' sound of the 74 band (george duke is the guilty here)
>
>
See, I thought the funkier rhythm section did a lot to get that music to
breathe a little more.  There's something very animated about that period
for me.

skip h


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 12:07:55 -0800
From: Skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Ornette

> Skip, you can't say that something is just your opinion and then equate it
> to the Emperor with no clothes. You're essentially saying 'this is just my
> opinion but it's right'...
>
>
> -
>
How about "This is my opinion and I don't feel it's wrong?"
sh


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 15:07:10 -0500
From: James Hale <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: who understands harmolodics?

I've never seen a completely satisfactory explanation of harmolodics, and I
couldn't even begin to sort through the definition Ornette once provided
directly to me.
There's a live radio broadcast of Prime Time v. 1 from the 1982 Montreal jazz
festival that comes close to capturing their sound, but so much of their impact
was through volume dynamics that I really don't think a recording can do them
complete justice. You really had to see what Bern Nix and Charlie Ellerbee were
doing to sort through it; same goes for Jamaaladeen and McDowell. That said, OF
HUMAN FEELINGS is one of the best-sounding recordings of its time (WHEN will it
be on CD???) but that's a bit of a cheat because it was only half the band,
which probably accounts for the clarity.

I think the most representative recordings of harmolodic theory in action are
some of the Decoding Society recordings, particularly NASTY and MANDANCE. You
can really hear the parts shifting over and around each other.

As far as Blood goes, I think ARE YOU GLAD TO BE IN AMERICA captures his
approach to harmolodics best, mainly because of the presence of Shannon
Jackson, who embodies the multi-layered approach as much as Ornette himself and
is the only Ornette-trained drummer with the chops to pull it off by himself.

James Hale

thomas chatterton wrote:

> Once again, it's unfortunate there are no recordings that do that Prime Time
> band justice (and certainly the second edition of that band with the
> keyboardists was pure shite!). Incidentally, didn't the
> jazz-rock-blues-harmolodic guitarist Blood Ulmer, (whose last album some on
> this list seem to favour)  serve his apprenticeship with Ornette?


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 12:19:26 -0800
From: Skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: free jazz (was spontaneous performance/composition)

>> From: Skip Heller <[e-mail]>
>
Grover's problem was less with his chops than with his
> material in my opinion.  No matter what your personal experience was with
> Grover, I can't see how you can say or suggest that one of the most seminal
> musicians in the history of avant-garde jazz is some how worse than the
> output of Grover Washington Jr.--not only worse, but a bad sax player to
> boot.

Well, if you don't like rhythm'n'blues, you're not going to like GW's
material.  I'll go so far as to agree his later stuff got sugary.  But the
early Kudu recordings are badass.  Certainly beyond any questions of
authenticity.

I also don't think avant-garde jazz is any more noble than any other form of
music that people play for money, so belonging to that camp does not buy you
protection.


> Fair enough, Skip.  Me neither.  But I'm left concluding from this exchange
> that you understand very little about harmolodics.  Your dismissal struck me
> as pretty casual and unsupported.  If you want to go that way, expect some
> debate.

Actually, I probably know more about it than you're led to believe.  And I
hold it as suspect as I hold other systems theories in music.  I also think
that just because a guy invents a vehicle does not mean he operates best.
For example, I am no huge Schoenberg fan, but I do go for Berg and Webern in
a big way.

I always held Cherry as the harmelodic improvisor of note.  His attention to
craft, his ability to really play the damn trumpet, his ability to project
ideas and be an effective ensemble player no matter with whom he plays, and
his beautiful sound all let me in on something deep and special.

Personally, I don't care about the debate.  And my dismissal of the stuff is
based on years of hearing it, going back to it with the question of "Am I
missing something?" and checking it out again.  And always coming up with
the same answer -- something I can't say about Cecil, Paul Bley, 70s Miles,
and of course Sun Ra.

Orrin Keepnews had a sign up in his studio that read "Important to who?",
and I think that's always the best question.

skip h


- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V3 #692
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