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Zorn List Digest       Monday, January 21 2002       Volume 03 : Number 694



In this issue:
-
       Re: who understands harmolodics?
       Re: who understands harmolodics?
       jazz journalism
       Re: who understands harmolodics?
       Re: who understands harmolodics?
       Re: jazz journalism
       Speaking of Free Jazz and music snobiness (no offense..
       indian classical recs
       Dolphy rumor (was something about Ornette)
       RE: Speaking of Free Jazz and music snobiness (no offense..
       Re: Denman Maroney
       Re: Zorn List Digest V3 #693
       Re: Ornette and The Lonely Lady
       Re: seijun suzuki's TOKYO DRIFTER
       Trembling Before G-d in Atlanta
       New Music in RealAudio, Mappings for the week beginning January 22, 2002
       Re: jazz journalism
       Re: Speaking of Free Jazz and music snobiness (no offense..
       RE: RE: Zorn List Change? (PLEASE READ)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 17:56:20 -0500
From: James Hale <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: who understands harmolodics?

I don't think the jazz media is alone in this... the folk press and early rock
press used to ask Bob Dylan 'what it all meant' and Rolling Stone's early years
are filled with literature-grads-turned-critics trying to explain music that
doesn't really require an explanation.

What sets the better critics apart is that they can move beyond those impulses
to try to explain it all.

Perhaps a better way to understand Ornette's dilemma of constantly having to
explain himself is to realize that he often asks people on meeting them for the
first time, "Do you play?" If he gets a negative answer, the curtain comes down.
I think he realizes that if you don't play, you'll never understand his music,
or at least the joy of making it.

James Hale


"Robert A. Pleshar" wrote:

> Yes, I am certainly aware of these facts. The question is why is the world
> of jazz different than the world of folk or rock or blues? What is it about
> the culture of jazz writing that makes these the questions that get asked?
> And why is it that the answers don't seem to satisfy the critics most of
> the time?
> Is Ornette a primitive or a theoretical mastermind? Can't he be both or
> neither? Are these even the right categories or are they imposed by
> "western" standards and don't even really fit? Does one need tons of
> theoretical knowledge in order to play music in a certain style? Leaving
> out ones taste for Ornette's playing, is it not conceivable that he did
> come up with a new way of playing and putting things together and maybe was
> not able to explain it very well?
>
> Rob


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 22:59:19 +0000
From: "thomas chatterton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: who understands harmolodics?

>From: "Robert A. Pleshar" <[e-mail]>

Leaving
>out ones taste for Ornette's playing, is it not conceivable that he did
>come up with a new way of playing and putting things together and maybe was
>not able to explain it very well?

Sure sounds like it when you hear Prime Time in flight! But, it's good to
remember the analogy of Ornette as trickster, and the jazz press and
especially the academics really set themselves up for swallowing
deliberately obscure musical theory. My main criticism of latter day
('80s-'90s) Ornette is that his recorded output has been sparse and
lacklustre. Though I still gotta smile about all the Deadheads that bought
his Virgin Beauty date (Jerry's on it, maan) after Prime Time toured with
the Dead...

np: Anthony Braxton In The Tradition

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- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 15:14:09 -0800
From: Skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: jazz journalism

Robert asked, "The question is why is the world of jazz different than the
world of folk or rock or blues? What is it about  the culture of jazz
writing that makes these the questions that get asked?"

That question bears more speculation than I gave it in the other email.

Rock journalism has, since about 1967, been largely in the same
analytical/intellectual boat as its jazz counterpart.

Personally -- and this is speaking as someone who has collected paychecks
both for writing about music and playing music (I make my living at the
latter) -- I am not sure either music has benefitted from the analysis,
because that type of analysis tends to leave a lot of music by the curb
because it does not fit into a critical thesis.  Critics shouldn't be blamed
for this.  They have a point of view they're trying to get across, just like
musicians.  And they're trying to pick up a paycheck without doing any heavy
lifting, just like musicians.

Critics generally fall into two categories
A) Guys who know a lot about music who decide to write
B) Guys who write who become interested in music

Musicians, regardless of style, generally fall into the category of "Guys
who know how to do music (to whatever degree), so they do music."

Jazz journalism has been too often plagued by the specter of
intellectualism, and, as a result, music that does not come with noticiable
intellectualism attatched gets the shirt shrift.  A great many players who
made jazz that gained popular acceptance -- Ahmad Jamal, Eddie Harris/Les
McCann, Cannonball Adderley -- faced polite dismissal at best in the jazz
press during their heyday because they weren't putting intellectualism at
the fore.  But their music has endured and has continued to shape the
standards and practices of jazz.  But, looking back at old DOWNBEATS, more
critics were in a hurry to analyze Dolphy (one way or the other).  You never
read a review from that time that says "The band grooved, the audience
sweat, and we all had a great time." Instead, you read a great many reviews
of how someone like Baby Face Willette wasn't doing anytthing ambitious.
Even tho the guy made a ton of really fun records.

A goodly portion of jazz does well within academia.  And you need that vein
of the music.  But when along comes a music that does not deal with the
intellectual, the intellectuals put it down.  The influx of rhythm'n'blues
influence in jazz was insulted by the critics, because the rhythm'n'blues
press was not dissecting the stuff in the DOWNBEAT style.  But, by the time
rock'n'roll starting influencing jazz on a big scale, it was having a press
(via CRAWDADDY and ROLLING STONE) that cerebralized the music, and therefore
was somehow worthy of the same treatment as jazz.

This is bogus.  Anybody with a brain knows that James Brown is as heavy as
Jimi Hendrix.  Hendrix certainly thought so.  But James was largely ignored
by the jazz press, until Miles started talking about him.  Sly Stone, on the
other hand, courted the rock press and was taken more seriously.

Unfortunately, the trend largely continues, in both the jazz and the rock
press, because intellectualism is held up as this wonderful end.  Which I
don't believe is any truer than anything else is a wonderful end.

Of course, there are some critics (I'm talking to YOU, Hale) that seem to
listen in different ways to different records.  Which is as it should be.

But, unfortunately, the jazz press is so largely defined by guy who seem to
feel like they have to defend a certain aspect of jazz as THE TRUTH, and
they miss the point -- not only of music, but of life.  Yes, you need
NEFERTITI.  And you damn sure need "Jungle Boogie", even if it's not getting
the same respect.  And I think "Jungle Boogie" is totally worthy of all the
respect.  What it does, it does great.  Similarly, even somebody who doesn't
like country music should be able to tell why separates a Garth Brooks from
a Merle Haggard.

In the end, when the bulk of the critics are intellectuals, the bulk of the
good reviews will go out to music made by intellectuals, and Ramsey Lewis be
damned.  But you'll meet more women with "The In Crowd" than you will with
"Ascension", which should tell you that everything that's any damn good has
a function.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 15:16:13 -0800
From: Skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: who understands harmolodics?

> Perhaps a better way to understand Ornette's dilemma of constantly having to
> explain himself is to realize that he often asks people on meeting them for
> the
> first time, "Do you play?" If he gets a negative answer, the curtain comes
> down.
> I think he realizes that if you don't play, you'll never understand his music,
> or at least the joy of making it.

Gee, that's elitist, isn't it? Could an unfunny comedian get away with that
- -- "You don't do stand-up? Oh, then you'll never know how funny I am."

skip h


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 15:36:57 -0800
From: "Rev. Floyd Errors" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: who understands harmolodics?

>>>Gee, that's elitist, isn't it?<<<

Golly, I hope so.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 21:00:11 -0500
From: James Hale <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: jazz journalism

Skip Heller wrote:

> Of course, there are some critics (I'm talking to YOU, Hale) that seem to
> listen in different ways to different records.  Which is as it should be.

Aw, shucks!
Much as I'd like to take credit, props go to Robert Palmer, Ralph J. Gleason,
Gary Giddins, Howard Mandel, Greil Marcus, Robert Christgau, Tony Glover,
Lester Bangs and Dave Marsh.
Those guys set the standard for open ears in my book.

James Hale


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 21:19:11 -0800
From: the muff <[e-mail]>
Subject: Speaking of Free Jazz and music snobiness (no offense..

I've been reading all of your messages regarding the beautiful music
that is
jazz, and all its variations.
I'm a fairly newbie when it comes to jazz (historically and musically
speaking).
I have several John Zorns, Charles Mingus, Miles Davis, Cinematic
Orchestra, etc.

I was just wondering, what do you admire most about a jazz song.  Not a
song
necessarily, but an artist, etc.  And when you listen to an album, do
you go with
the flow, or inspect every note and analyze the way they're fused
together, etc.
I find myself to do both, but I was wondering how "experts" view the
music.

the muff


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 19:34:13 -0700
From: "Matthew W Wirzbicki  (S)" <[e-mail]>
Subject: indian classical recs

Rahmnad Krishnan, "Vidwan", nonesuch (south indian singer with outstanding
vocal ability)

Kishori Amonkar, s/t, Maestro's choice series one, I think the label is
called music today but I'm not sure...I have it on cassette tape. (north
indian singer)

try to look for albums which feature long performances if you want the music
you're listening to to be a bit more culturally accurate.  Often more modern
indian classical music often has a short introduction (alap) where the drums
are absent.  So you'll hear drums very quickly and you may hear drum solos
at the end.  As I understand this practice was only adopted as indian
musicians began to travel and crowds began to chear for the
drummers....traditionally the drummer is socially beneath the soloist
(singer, sitar, sarod) and their musical relationship mirrors that custom.

regardless of tradition I prefer the epic length pieces to the shorter
versions....especially live.

Matt

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 19:44:23 -0700
From: "Matthew W Wirzbicki  (S)" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Dolphy rumor (was something about Ornette)

about the whole "musician's with a theory to describe their music"...

...i heard this rumor that Dolphy worked out some circles or cycles which
describe the harmonic content of his music.  According to my source,
Coltrane was privy as was Yusef Latif.

anyone?

Matt

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 23:03:53 -0400
From: "Neil H. Enet" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Speaking of Free Jazz and music snobiness (no offense..

>I was just wondering, what do you admire most >about a jazz song.  Not a
>song
>necessarily, but an artist, etc.  And when you >listen to an album, do
>you go with
>the flow, or inspect every note and analyze the >way they're fused
>together, etc.
>I find myself to do both, but I was wondering >how "experts" view the
>music.

- ---------------

I'm definitely not an "expert", but I do exactly what you do ... both things
... go with the flow while listening (or trying to listen) to each
instrument and sound that happens.  Some songs just don't have a "flow" for
me, so then I just analize each sound, but if it got that "flow" thing then
definitely both.

Neil H. Enet
- ------------

NP. RAMMSTEIN - Mutter


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 22:42:50 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Denman Maroney

In a message dated 1/21/02 2:15:54 AM, [e-mail] writes:
<< >From: [e-mail]

>n.p.; denman maroney- fluxations-

>(superb! -w rothenberg ballou dresser norton)

>Steve Koenig

is this released somewhere?

Andreas >>

hi andreas- i love this disc- its cdr with minimal packaging.
because many have asked, i'll post it to the list too that it's
available directly from denman for $20 USD ppd. at
[e-mail]
he also has a disc of songs with theo blechmann singing that
i havent yet played
steve
n.p.: acoustiphobia- v1 -disc 2- great short electronic pcs (sublingual.com)
n.r:  him#3 - gay short fiction- faber and faber

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 23:06:48 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Zorn List Digest V3 #693

- --part1_13d.8156709.297e3f58_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

how do i post my message?

- --part1_13d.8156709.297e3f58_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>how do i post my message?</FONT></HTML>

- --part1_13d.8156709.297e3f58_boundary--

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 22:29:50 -0600
From: "John Thomas" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Ornette and The Lonely Lady

> Ooops, It's 'Lonely Woman' not 'Lonely Lady.'  Sorry!

Wow, I was beginning to think Ornette did some of the
music for the Pia Zadora trash film.... ;-)



- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 23:32:31 -0500
From: Lang Thompson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: seijun suzuki's TOKYO DRIFTER

>Criterion Collection reissued this on DVD, and the
>catalog refers to it as a "free-jazz" gangster film.

On a related note, has anybody seen Wakamatsu's film based on Karou Abe?
Any tapes floating around?

- -------------------------------------------
Adventures In Sound
http://wlt4.home.mindspring.com/adventures.htm

Outsider Music Mailing List
http://wlt4.home.mindspring.com/outsider.htm

Documentary Sound
http://wlt4.home.mindspring.com/adventures/documentary.htm

Full Alert Film Review
http://wlt4.home.mindspring.com/fafr.htm




- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 23:53:35 -0500
From: Lang Thompson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Trembling Before G-d in Atlanta

http://www.ajff.org/films/Trembling.htm

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 23:00:48 -0600
From: Herb Levy <[e-mail]>
Subject: New Music in RealAudio, Mappings for the week beginning January 22, 2002

Hi y'all,

This week on Mappings <http://www.antennaradio.com/avant/mappings/>,
you'll hear new music by Cornelius Cardew, Jo Kondo, Frode
Gjerstad/Derek Bailey/John Stevens, Yannis Kyriakides, Misha
Mengelberg, Olga Neuwirth, Luigi Nono, Linda Catlin Smith, AW
Sutrisna, Tibor Szemzo.

The show went online Monday evening around 10:00 PM (-0600 GMT) and
will remain online at the above URL for a week. Last week's program
(featuring electro-acoustic music by Noah Creshevsky, Julio Estrada,
Luc Ferrari, Fuzzybunny, Sylvia Hallett, Giuseppe Ielasi & Domenico
Sciajno, Utah Kawasaki & Yuko Nexus6, Sachiko M & Toshimaru Nakamura,
Jean-Claude Risset, Mark Trayle, Amnon Wolman, and Iannis Xenakis) is
still available in the Mappings archive
<http://www.antennaradio.com/avant/mappings/index1.htm>, where you
can also find play lists for the program since it began in March 1998.

Hope you tune in to the program.

Bests,

Herb


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 21:37:51 -0800
From: Skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: jazz journalism

>
> Skip Heller wrote:
>
>> Of course, there are some critics (I'm talking to YOU, Hale) that seem to
>> listen in different ways to different records.  Which is as it should be.
>
> Aw, shucks!
> Much as I'd like to take credit, props go to Robert Palmer, Ralph J. Gleason,
> Gary Giddins, Howard Mandel, Greil Marcus, Robert Christgau, Tony Glover,
> Lester Bangs and Dave Marsh.
> Those guys set the standard for open ears in my book.
>
> James Hale
>
Hey, what about Tosches?!

skip h


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 21:41:52 -0800
From: Skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Speaking of Free Jazz and music snobiness (no offense..

>
>
> I was just wondering, what do you admire most about a jazz song.  Not a
> song
> necessarily, but an artist, etc.  And when you listen to an album, do
> you go with
> the flow, or inspect every note and analyze the way they're fused
> together, etc.
> I find myself to do both, but I was wondering how "experts" view the
> music.

Personally, I just kind of listening to the overall thing.  If I like the
way it all fits together and I believe the performance, I'm hooked (and that
criterion is not relegated to jazz).  The layman probably has an advantage
over the performers in this case, because you can hear things without
getting bogged down in technical aspects.

skip h


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 06:24:48 +0000
From: "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: RE: Zorn List Change? (PLEASE READ)

>From: "Steve Smith" <[e-mail]>

>I hereby withdraw my request regarding the archives. If someone were to
>discover them and join us, that would be great. And while I would not want
>my ideas and rhetoric "stolen" outright, if someone were to discover them
>and use them in that way, it would serve me right for not pushing the idea
>out there into print myself. And if, as you say, someone discovers an idea
>that makes them write something I/we didn't consider, then that would
>indeed
>be a fine thing. The possibilities for positive effect had escaped me
>momentarily - thanks for quashing my paranoia!

That was too easy.  I was hoping for a little debate first :-).  Actually,
as I mentioned, there are procedures for documenting an email list as a
source in a formal, professional paper.  Any person using such a list would
have to document it or risk being accused of plagiarism, obviously a taboo
in professional writing (though perhaps not journalism).  The MLA has
guidelines, for example.  You can see some comments in the FAQ  for using
web sources at http://www.mla.org/ where it states that "for a posting to a
discussion list or forum, the name of the list or forum" must be included in
a works cited or consulted list as well as in in-text citation.

_________________________________________________________________
Join the worldÆs largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
http://www.hotmail.com


- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V3 #694
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