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From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest)
To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Zorn List Digest V3 #691
Reply-To: zorn-list
Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Precedence: bulk
Zorn List Digest Monday, January 21 2002 Volume 03 : Number 691
In this issue:
-
Odp: Odp: Ornette Coleman Is God
Denman Maroney
Re: Ornette
Re: Zorn List Digest V3 #690
Re: Ornette
Re: vibes (Karl Berger and the Creative Music Studio)
Re: free jazz (was spontaneous performance/composition)
Re: RE: Zorn List Change? (PLEASE READ)
Re: New Dave Douglas album
Re: vibes (Karl Berger and the Creative Music Studio)
Zorn List Change? (PLEASE READ)
Ornette
Re: Ornette
Seigen ono
seijun suzuki's TOKYO DRIFTER
Re: seijun suzuki's TOKYO DRIFTER
Re: seijun suzuki's TOKYO DRIFTER
Fwd: Ornette
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 11:19:41 +0100
From: "Marcin Gokieli" <marcingokieli@go2.pl>
Subject: Odp: Odp: Ornette Coleman Is God
> The 88 band was kind of the height of great technique/not much fun
> personality for me. I think his best band was the scaled down 74 line-up.
> (YCDTOSA, Vol 2).
I like the 88 band much. The bras arrangements are amazing. I do not like
the 'funk band' sound of the 74 band (george duke is the guilty here)
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 11:15:45 +0100
From: "Andreas Dietz" <andreasdietz@hotmail.com>
Subject: Denman Maroney
>From: Acousticlv@aol.com
>
>n.p.; denman maroney- fluxations-
>(superb! -w rothenberg ballou dresser norton)
>Steve Koenig
is this released somewhere?
Andreas
_________________________________________________________________
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- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 10:17:00 +0000
From: Ian Fenton <lumipallopoika@mac.com>
Subject: Re: Ornette
> As for his importance to a period in time, I think -- and in fact I am su=
re
> -- his greatest contribution was to take an aggressive step where people
> could and would hear about it.
Interviewer: What is the basis, the logic of, on the one hand, the evolutio=
n
of the music, and on the other, how the public and media perceive and shape
what is happening? For example, with Ornette Coleman's arrival in New York
in 1959 and the attention that received. Other innovators, including
yourself, had been performing in this =AD for lack of a better term =AD free
jazz for several years and being ignored by the press. Why was that?
Cecil Taylor: I know why. Part of it was my own doing, because I never play
ball with people who were "ersatz."
Interviewer: Ersatz?
Cecil Taylor: People who are full of shit.=20
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 10:22:17 +0000
From: Richard Gardner <richard.gardner@colourtone.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Zorn List Digest V3 #690
> And BTW - any info about the upcomieng 'cellar door live' box set?
It should be 3 x double CDs.
Didn't somebody on this List say that the release is put back to 2003?
Richard Gardner
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 21:39:35 +1100
From: "Julian" <jcurwin@hartingdale.com.au>
Subject: Re: Ornette
Skip, you can't say that something is just your opinion and then equate it
to the Emperor with no clothes. You're essentially saying 'this is just my
opinion but it's right'...
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 11:50:12 +0100
From: "Andreas Dietz" <andreasdietz@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: vibes (Karl Berger and the Creative Music Studio)
>From: "Vuilleumier, StΘphane"
>
> >[SNIP]-I'm just getting
> >warmed up here, folks, the list goes on and on. Even John Zorn spent
>time at CMS.
>
>and Tom Cora! (not listed on the website). Any detailed info on that
>period
>would be appreciated!
some years ago we had a ROOF concert here in Mainz and afterwards Tom Cora
remarked upon Karl Berger as his teacher at CMS in the warmest words...
Andreas
_________________________________________________________________
MSN Fotos ist der einfachste Weg, Ihre Fotos auszudrucken und anderen
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- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 12:39:20 +0000
From: "Bill Ashline" <bashline@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: free jazz (was spontaneous performance/composition)
>From: Skip Heller <velaires@earthlink.net>
>Well, Bill, I haven't had a drink in nearly ten years, for starters.
Whoops. Didn't mean to go there. Bad joke.
>
>Grover was good enough by Rahsaan Roland Kirk's standards, and he knew
>something about saxophone players, so I feel backed up on this one. If you
>don't care for symmetrical music, he's not for you. But his command of the
>instrument, and his ability to groove, well... his version of "Inner City
>Blues" is the real stuff. That's a deep part of my playing tradition, and
>I
>am proud to come from that. Also, Grover was a beautiful guy who really
>did
>a lot to get Philly guys onto bigger and better things.
Well, maybe so, but Grover's problem was less with his chops than with his
material in my opinion. No matter what your personal experience was with
Grover, I can't see how you can say or suggest that one of the most seminal
musicians in the history of avant-garde jazz is some how worse than the
output of Grover Washington Jr.--not only worse, but a bad sax player to
boot.
>
>And I am not going to apologize for to you or anyone -- no matter what your
>objections -- for honestly feeling that something is badly done and saying
>so.
Fair enough, Skip. Me neither. But I'm left concluding from this exchange
that you understand very little about harmolodics. Your dismissal struck me
as pretty casual and unsupported. If you want to go that way, expect some
debate.
Bill
_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 13:04:14 +0000
From: "Bill Ashline" <bashline@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: RE: Zorn List Change? (PLEASE READ)
>From: "Steve Smith" <ssmith36@sprynet.com>
>BUT: That said, ideas are currency, and the potential for would-be
>freelance
>New York Times Arts and Leisure creeps doing homework with our knowledge
>and
>opinions for their master's theses kinda galls me. Therefore, my vote goes
>towards a private-access, Z-list only archive. (And if anyone really
>doesn't
>understand that, I'll be happy to explain my views privately...)
I don't know, Steve. Do you really think that a mailing list houses
intellectual property? There are actually procedures in which information
from such a list must be documented in formal papers. If people scanning
the lists for information and thinking about music actually find something
useful, advancing the cause of the music in the process, what's the harm?
If somebody should want to steal my rhetoric/ideas and put something into
print, they can have it. I didn't get it all by myself anyway. We're all
collective authors.
Other than that, Mike can do whatever he wants. I don't have any
preferences.
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 08:52:39 -0500
From: James Hale <jhale@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: New Dave Douglas album
It's great to hear this group after the experience of NOT hearing the trio
of Mengelberg, Bennink and Douglas at their debut performance at the Guelph
Jazz Festival a couple of years ago. There seemed to be lots of interesting
things going on at that show (and Dave said he enjoyed it), but since Misha
refused to be mic'ed and Han was in one of his over-the-top moods it was
hard to tell.
Despite this CD bearing Misha's name this sounds like a band, with Dave
playing as much as he does on most of his own recordings. Aside from the two
Monk tunes, there are quite a few songs that sound like they were inspired
by Dutch-German-Austrian folk melodies. Dave sounds particularly good on
these, soloing much like he does with Tiny Bell.
I haven't delved into this as deeply yet as I would if I was reviewing it,
but on the half-dozen or so listens I've given it, I'd say I enjoyed it more
than "Serpentine".
James Hale
Arthur Gadney wrote:
> Hello.
>
> Any comments on the new Dave Douglas CD with Misha Mengelberg and Han
> Bennink?
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 09:15:23 -0500
From: Bob Sweet <bsweet@umich.edu>
Subject: Re: vibes (Karl Berger and the Creative Music Studio)
I, too, must register warm words for Karl as a teacher. I often remember =
him saying, "You have a thousand times more music in you than you think you =
have," when I need to be boosted out of frustration.
For those of you in the vicinity of Woodstock, New York, be sure to check =
out the fourth in a series of Creative Music Studio "reemergence" concerts, =
this Saturday, January 26. You can expect to hear some amazing stuff from =
the Music Universe (CMS alumni) Orchestra. The lineup is likely to include =
Karl Berger (vibes, piano)and Ingrid Sertso (voice), John Lindberg (bass), =
Peter Apfelbaum (saxophones), Peter Einhorn, (guitar), Tom Schmidt =
(percussion, ngoni), Donnie Davis (alto sax), Peter Buettner (tenor sax, =
flute), Sylvain Leroux (flutes), Ted Orr (guitar), Bill Ylitalo (baritone =
sax), Larry Chernicoff (vibes), Janet Grice (bassoon), David Rothenberg =
(clarinets) and others.
Bob Sweet
bsweet@umich.edu
read Music Universe, Music Mind, Revisiting the Creatrive Music Studio
http://www.arborville.com
- --On Monday, January 21, 2002 11:50 AM +0100 Andreas Dietz =
<andreasdietz@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >From: "Vuilleumier, St=E9phane"
> >
> > >[SNIP]-I'm just getting
> > >warmed up here, folks, the list goes on and on. Even John Zorn spent
> >time at CMS.
> >
> >and Tom Cora! (not listed on the website). Any detailed info on that
> >period
> >would be appreciated!
>
> some years ago we had a ROOF concert here in Mainz and afterwards Tom
> Cora remarked upon Karl Berger as his teacher at CMS in the warmest
> words...
>
> Andreas
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> MSN Fotos ist der einfachste Weg, Ihre Fotos auszudrucken und anderen
> Benutzern zur Verf=FCgung zu stellen:
> http://photos.msn.de/support/worldwide.aspx
>
>
> -
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 09:43:28 -0500
From: dennis summers <dennisqdw@home.com>
Subject: Zorn List Change? (PLEASE READ)
- --=====================_559641218==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
mike,
Hey, I'm pretty flexible. Whatever makes your life easier, works for me. --ds
Dennis Summers
Quantum Dance Works
members.home.net/dennisqdw/
- --=====================_559641218==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
<html>
mike,<br><br>
Hey, I'm pretty flexible. Whatever makes your life easier, works for me.
- --ds<br>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
<font color="#0000FF">Dennis Summers<br>
Quantum Dance Works<br>
members.home.net/dennisqdw/</font></html>
- --=====================_559641218==_.ALT--
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 10:05:48 -0500
From: dennis summers <dennisqdw@home.com>
Subject: Ornette
- --=====================_560981718==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Does anyone here remember the Ornette conversation a couple of years back,
where everyone was raving about how good he was?
Ornette was my introduction to all that weird and difficult kind of jazz.
And I'm certain without him, I wouldn't have come to Zorn as early as I
did. I'd like to second the previous poster on the point that I too have
always found Ornette's music to be profoundly emotional and moving. Not
having the "ear" that others on this list have, I don't notice or mind the
"out-of-tuneness" which may seem like sacrilege to some of you. He doesn't
sound any more out of tune to me than many early blues music which I (and
many others) find closely related. For what it's worth Ornette has always
said that he wants to be known more for his compositions, anyone. What do
you naysayers think of his compositions as opposed to his playing? I do
have to agree with many, that much of his '70s fusion type stuff, is not
great, but I still hear individual fantastic pieces. And as much as I like
his "return" to acoustic music, I do think that it is not as challenging as
his early music. But I find it beautiful in a different way.
Now to really upset people. I have tried repeatedly, over some 20 years to
"get" Cecil Taylor. Based on my musical interests, I understand that I
should love him. But, he has always left me cold. To my ears, it is all
clinical technique, and no soul.
Maybe, it's just a question of taste:-) Hey, I still love the Sex Pistols.
Which to me was the Ornette Coleman Quartet of the '70s, drugs, chaos and all.
- --ds
Dennis Summers
Quantum Dance Works
members.home.net/dennisqdw/
- --=====================_560981718==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<html>
Does anyone here remember the Ornette conversation a couple of years
back, where everyone was raving about how good he was?<br>
Ornette was my introduction to all that weird and difficult kind of jazz.
And I'm certain without him, I wouldn't have come to Zorn as early as I
did. I'd like to second the previous poster on the point that I too have
always found Ornette's music to be profoundly emotional and moving. Not
having the "ear" that others on this list have, I don't notice
or mind the "out-of-tuneness" which may seem like sacrilege to
some of you. He doesn't sound any more out of tune to me than many early
blues music which I (and many others) find closely related. For what it's
worth Ornette has always said that he wants to be known more for his
compositions, anyone. What do you naysayers think of his compositions as
opposed to his playing? I do have to agree with many, that much of his
'70s fusion type stuff, is not great, but I still hear individual
fantastic pieces. And as much as I like his "return" to
acoustic music, I do think that it is not as challenging as his early
music. But I find it beautiful in a different way.<br><br>
Now to really upset people. I have tried repeatedly, over some 20 years
to "get" Cecil Taylor. Based on my musical interests, I
understand that I should love him. But, he has always left me cold. To my
ears, it is all clinical technique, and no soul.<br><br>
Maybe, it's just a question of taste:-) Hey, I still love the Sex
Pistols. Which to me was the Ornette Coleman Quartet of the '70s, drugs,
chaos and all.<br><br>
- --ds<br>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
<font color=3D"#0000FF">Dennis Summers<br>
Quantum Dance Works<br>
members.home.net/dennisqdw/</font></html>
- --=====================_560981718==_.ALT--
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 07:20:52 -0800
From: Tosh <tosh@loop.com>
Subject: Re: Ornette
I want to put in my 2=A2 for Ornette too. I don't know his 70's work,
but the stuff he did in the late 50's and early 60's I think is
great. 'Lonely Lady,' I mean what's wrong with that piece?
- --
Tosh Berman
TamTam Books
http://www.tamtambooks.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 15:28:23 +0000
From: "Ricardo Jorge" <ricardoviseu@hotmail.com>
Subject: Seigen ono
can anyone point me to a site with copmplete discography and line up of the
albums?
_________________________________________________________________
O MSN Photos Θ o jeito mais fßcil de compartilhar e imprimir as suas fotos:
http://photos.msn.com.br/support/worldwide.aspx
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 07:55:20 -0800 (PST)
From: Scott Handley <thesubtlebody@yahoo.com>
Subject: seijun suzuki's TOKYO DRIFTER
Criterion Collection reissued this on DVD, and the
catalog refers to it as a "free-jazz" gangster film.
This seems to be an oblique reference that has nothing
to do with the music used in the film, only perhaps
the editing---but it caught my attention. I thought
I'd ask how relevant the "free-jazz" reference is, and
see if the film was worth checking out. Thanks in
advance,
- -----s
__________________________________________________
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- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 11:03:57 EST
From: JonAbbey2@aol.com
Subject: Re: seijun suzuki's TOKYO DRIFTER
In a message dated 1/21/02 10:56:12 AM, thesubtlebody@yahoo.com writes:
<< Criterion Collection reissued this on DVD, and the
catalog refers to it as a "free-jazz" gangster film.
This seems to be an oblique reference that has nothing
to do with the music used in the film, only perhaps
the editing---but it caught my attention. I thought
I'd ask how relevant the "free-jazz" reference is, and
see if the film was worth checking out. >>
I saw this pretty recently, and enjoyed it quite a bit. I think you're right
about the free-jazz reference being about the editing, as I don't recall
much, if any, on the soundtrack. it's a wild movie, though.
Branded To Kill, which Suzuki made the following year, is also quite good,
maybe not as overtly stylistically wild, and the Criterion DVD comes with
liners by our mutual friend Mr. Zorn.
Jon
www.erstwhilerecords.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 17:08:57 +0100
From: patRice <iqhouse@yahoo.de>
Subject: Re: seijun suzuki's TOKYO DRIFTER
Seijun Suzuki was discussed here a year ago or so...
Can't remember exactly what people said about Tokyo Drifter...
In the meantime I got my hands on the video of his Branded To Kill,
which I do quite like. I'd even go as far as recommending it to you...
;-)
Didn't someone also mention last time Suzuki was talked about here that
Zorn himself is very much into his films.
BTW: there's a new English-language magazine by Hotei Publishing
(Netherlands; www.hotei-publishing.com) entitled Japan - and as the
title suggests it's about nothing else but Japan related issues; in the
first issue there is quite an interesting article about Yakuza films -
from the very first ones that came out way back to Suzuki to some weird
1960s/70s stuff (that I'd love to see, but couldn't find anywhere...) to
Takeshi Kitano...
patRice
np: Drahdiwaberl, Werwolfromantik, GIG
nr: Horiyoshi III, 108 Heroes of the Suikoden
Scott Handley wrote:
> Criterion Collection reissued this on DVD, and the
> catalog refers to it as a "free-jazz" gangster film.
> This seems to be an oblique reference that has nothing
> to do with the music used in the film, only perhaps
> the editing---but it caught my attention. I thought
> I'd ask how relevant the "free-jazz" reference is, and
> see if the film was worth checking out. Thanks in
> advance,
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 17:15:22 +0100 (CET)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Efr=E9n=20del=20Valle?= <efrendv@yahoo.es>
Subject: Fwd: Ornette
hi,
Dennis Summers wrote:
> Now to really upset people. I have tried repeatedly,
> over some 20 years to
> "get" Cecil Taylor. Based on my musical interests, I
> understand that I
> should love him. But, he has always left me cold. To
> my ears, it is all
> clinical technique, and no soul.
I've always thought that Taylor is precisely all soul
and I find his playing absolutely "dirty" and
intuitive, as one might think of Br÷tzmann's blowing
or Ornette himself. I've never seen Taylor as a
technical pianist as I'd regard, for instance, Joey
Baron or Mary Ehrlich on their respective instruments.
Best,
EfrΘn
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- -
------------------------------
End of Zorn List Digest V3 #691
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