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Zorn List Digest       Monday, January 21 2002       Volume 03 : Number 690



In this issue:
-
       Ornette Coleman Is God
       re: CD-R quality
       Re: CD-R quality
       Re: Ornette Coleman Is God
       RE: New Dave Douglas album
       Re: Re: free jazz (was spontaneous performance/composition)
       Re: free jazz (was spontaneous performance/composition)
       RE: Zorn List Change? (PLEASE READ)
       Odp: Zorn List Change? (PLEASE READ)
       Sing Me a Song of Songmy/Curlew
       Re: Ornette Coleman Is God
       Re: free jazz (was spontaneous performance/composition)
       RE: Zorn List Change? (PLEASE READ)
       Re: free jazz (was spontaneous performance/composition)
       Odp: Zorn List Change? (PLEASE READ)
       Odp: Ornette Coleman Is God
       Re: Odp: Ornette Coleman Is God

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 20:41:50 -0800
From: Skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Ornette Coleman Is God

I now see the error of my ways.

Oh, I didn't know they were quarter-tones.  I also never realized that bad
execution was the sign of true soulfulness.

You have enlightened me, and everything I know is wrong.

I will no longer prize skill, for Ornette Coleman is beyond such pedestrian
considerations.  I will, in fact, learn to prize all poorly executed music
at the expense of the Cannonball Adderley's of this world.  Ayler is a god.
I cannot know this personally, for my rhythm'n'blues value system is no
match for any academic wits.  Free jazz is, by its definition, cliche-free
and greater than hard bop.  Rahsaan Roland Kirk was misguided after all.

thank you for delivering me from my delusions --
skip h
np: Best of Hank Crawford


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 23:54:40 -0500 (EST)
From: Taylor McLaren <[e-mail]>
Subject: re: CD-R quality

With respect to the recent discussion of that perennial favourite
topic, the "quality" of various brands of CD-Rs, I'll finally confess
to being a bit puzzled: what are y'all basing your choices on? I've
only used a couple of different brands in my life, and while I've
never produced an actual coaster, I also couldn't attribute any of
the little problems that have surfaced here and there (minute
glitches that didn't turn up in the source signal and which aren't
reproduced in predictable places in subsequent burns, etc.) to either
a particular brand or to the burners that I've been using. Any
suggestions (or hints on other places that would be worth checking
out)?

- -me


______________________________________________________________________
Web-hosting solutions for home and business! http://website.yahoo.ca

- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 21:14:26 -0800
From: Skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: CD-R quality

>
> With respect to the recent discussion of that perennial favourite
> topic, the "quality" of various brands of CD-Rs, I'll finally confess
> to being a bit puzzled: what are y'all basing your choices on? I've
> only used a couple of different brands in my life, and while I've
> never produced an actual coaster, I also couldn't attribute any of
> the little problems that have surfaced here and there (minute
> glitches that didn't turn up in the source signal and which aren't
> reproduced in predictable places in subsequent burns, etc.) to either
> a particular brand or to the burners that I've been using. Any
> suggestions (or hints on other places that would be worth checking
> out)?
>
My rating system, which ain't scientific, is based on entriely how many
coasters use of any one brand has resulted in.  Fuji has come in as the
all-time most successful and glitch-free brand, followed closely by TDK (the
gold ones).  I am talking audio Cd-Rs here, BTW.  When burning on the
computer, I've found that no one company leads the league particularly.

skip h


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 21:39:17 -0800
From: Jim Flannery <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Ornette Coleman Is God

Skip Heller wrote:
>
> You have enlightened me, and everything I know is wrong.

So. Skip.

Back in grade school when I was practicing my Hanon, nobody really had much to
say to be about intonation obviously, but it was really important to play on
that beat. When I listen to be-bop, it seems like nobody's on the beat at all
... these guys are up front, this one's dragging it intermittently ... can't
they play in time?

What? They're "swinging"? Oh yeah, heard of that.

So what I'm wondering is, why is it ok to "swing" that beat so outrageously, but
a mortal sin to "swing" that intonation?

- --
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jim Flannery                                             [e-mail]

         "For children are innocent and love justice; while most
          of us are wicked and naturally prefer mercy"
                                                     -- G.K. Chesterton
np: Alva, _Fair-Haired Guillotine_

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 01:10:47 -0500
From: "Steve Smith" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: New Dave Douglas album

Haven't heard the CD, but the New York gigs were wonderful. Mengelberg's
early post-bop compositions start at Monk and take a sharp left, and Dave
and Han play off each other extraordinarily well, as you already know from
'Serpentine.' Brad Jones was a sensitive and responsive accompanist and the
glue that held these extremely fractious elements together.

Steve Smith
[e-mail]
NP - Dewey Redman, "Lop-o-Lop," 'Tarik' (Actuel/Fuel 2000)

- -----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail]
[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Arthur Gadney

Any comments on the new Dave Douglas CD with Misha Mengelberg and Han
Bennink?

Somebody mentioned that it was on a new CD format or something like that,
but what about the music?? The lineup looks superb.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 06:20:43 +0000
From: "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Re: free jazz (was spontaneous performance/composition)

>From: Skip Heller <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Re: free jazz (was spontaneous performance/composition)
>
> > Yeah, I know what you mean. If there's any frat boy who pisses me
> > off it's that Ornette Coleman.
> >
>I don't know if I'd call him a frat boy, but he sure is to Cecil Taylor
>what
>the Blues Bros are to Sonny Boy Williamson (2).


Oh give me a break.  What on earth would you be drinking to make you come up
with that analogy?  Stick to extolling your favorites, Skip.  It's what
you're best at.  This kind of stuff just leads to unnecessary flatulence.
This from a man who warns us all about dissing on Grover Washington.  I'm an
old Philly boy myself and Grover didn't sound any better when I was there.

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 01:25:50 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: free jazz (was spontaneous performance/composition)

In a message dated 01.21.02 01:21:24, [e-mail] writes:

>This kind of stuff just leads to unnecessary flatulence.
>This from a man who warns us all about dissing on Grover Washington.  I'm
>an old Philly boy myself and Grover didn't sound any better when I was there.
>

grover, wasn't he a character on sesame street?  oh wait, sesame street is
not nearly as avant garde as the muppet show, so maybe we shouldn't discuss
it here...  ;)

love,
  kate.



- -----
hard to be an easy to please composer.
(mike rosenthal)

where there's a mission, there's a missionary.
(jim altieri)




k a t e  p e t e r s o n
composer / performer
<A HREF="mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>
<A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/uforbk8/kate.html">
http://www.geocities.com/uforbk8/kate.html</A>

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 03:08:44 -0500
From: "Steve Smith" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Zorn List Change? (PLEASE READ)

ANYTHING that makes Mike's life easier is okay by me.

ANYTHING that makes it easier to search the Z-list archives for past
profundities is also very much okay. Why should I have to bother youse guys
and gals to remind me when it was we last talked about
Shipp/Shepp/Bangs/Bangles/Howlin'Wolf/ChristianWolff/ohyeahZorn some time
ago?

AND: The notion of strangers searching our conversations: weird, though not
out of keeping with the Weird Wide Web, where I read others' thoughts all
the time, likely without their knowledge.

BUT: That said, ideas are currency, and the potential for would-be freelance
New York Times Arts and Leisure creeps doing homework with our knowledge and
opinions for their master's theses kinda galls me. Therefore, my vote goes
towards a private-access, Z-list only archive. (And if anyone really doesn't
understand that, I'll be happy to explain my views privately...)

Go with Mailman, but keep our thoughts private, is my thought.

Steve
[e-mail]
NP - Miles Davis, "Bitches Brew," 'Paraphernalia' (JMY)
...well aware of the contradiction between my above request and my present
NP...


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 09:26:39 +0100
From: "Marcin Gokieli" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Odp: Zorn List Change? (PLEASE READ)

> Go with Mailman, but keep our thoughts private, is my thought.
> Steve

I agree with Steve's opinion.


> NP - Miles Davis, "Bitches Brew," 'Paraphernalia' (JMY)
> ...well aware of the contradiction between my above request and my present
> NP...

what do you mean by JMY? (any special edition, etc? Am i just too nervous
about miles' 67- 74  releases?) And where does the contradiction come from?
And BTW - any info about the upcomieng 'cellar door live' box set?



- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 08:27:23 +0000
From: Richard Gardner <[e-mail]>
Subject: Sing Me a Song of Songmy/Curlew

I recently bought a cheap Warner Brothers compilation called "Psychedelic
Jazz and Soul". The usual suspects Gary Burton, Yusef Lateef, Rahsaan etc.
But also included are 2 tracks by Freddie Hubbard: "This is combat I know"
and "Threnody for Sharon Tate". I could not believe what I was hearing.
Apparently they come from an album called: "Sing Me a Song of Songmy". They
are truly strange. I wondered if anyone on the list knows the story behind
this release. I see that it is still available on CD coupled with Echoes (of
Blue(?)). Is this one I should buy or is it just so weird its not worth
bothering with?

On an unrelated issue Curlew - the band - are practically unknown in the UK,
it is hard to track down their releases. I gather a new one is imminent .
Their music seems quite closely related to much of the stuff discussed on
this list but they hardly get a mention. They seem to have been going for
about 20 years. I first heard of them in Gene Santoro 's book Stir It Up but
have seen no mention of them in magazines/books since.

Do they gig regularly in NYC? Are they seen as part of the downtown gang? I
would appreciate any first hand experience of their live gigs (as far as I
know they have never played here).

Cheers

Richard Gardner


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 00:42:29 -0800
From: Skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Ornette Coleman Is God

> Skip Heller wrote:
>>
>> You have enlightened me, and everything I know is wrong.
>
> So. Skip.
>
> Back in grade school when I was practicing my Hanon, nobody really had much to
> say to be about intonation obviously, but it was really important to play on
> that beat. When I listen to be-bop, it seems like nobody's on the beat at all
> ... these guys are up front, this one's dragging it intermittently ... can't
> they play in time?
>
> What? They're "swinging"? Oh yeah, heard of that.
>
> So what I'm wondering is, why is it ok to "swing" that beat so outrageously,
> but
> a mortal sin to "swing" that intonation?

There's a difference between bending a note the way you bend time and coming
at the pitch inaccurately.  I don't hate all out-of-tune music.  Take "Paper
In My Shoe" by Boozoo Chavis.  Or a lot of doo-wop records.  But those
records don't strike me as artificial. Ornette does.  Of course, Boozoo
didn't make it a point to drag out some elaborate philsophical system.

And, to be technical (re: anal as all get-out), the figure seen as two
eighth notes in a row is actually a triplet made up of a quarter note
followed by an eighth.  So it is an understood version of "what the beat
is".  In the case of Dexter Gordon, I thought there were times when it went
past legato and straight to dragging.  To be honest, a lot of be-bop sounds
fraudulent and cold to me.  I like skill, but a technical excercise by any
other name is still that (why I didn't like the later Zappa bands too much).

skip h


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 00:47:57 -0800
From: Skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: free jazz (was spontaneous performance/composition)

>> From: Skip Heller <[e-mail]>
>> Subject: Re: free jazz (was spontaneous performance/composition)
>>
>>> Yeah, I know what you mean. If there's any frat boy who pisses me
>>> off it's that Ornette Coleman.
>>>
>> I don't know if I'd call him a frat boy, but he sure is to Cecil Taylor
>> what
>> the Blues Bros are to Sonny Boy Williamson (2).
>
>
> Oh give me a break.  What on earth would you be drinking to make you come up
> with that analogy?  Stick to extolling your favorites, Skip.  It's what
> you're best at.  This kind of stuff just leads to unnecessary flatulence.
> This from a man who warns us all about dissing on Grover Washington.  I'm an
> old Philly boy myself and Grover didn't sound any better when I was there.

Well, Bill, I haven't had a drink in nearly ten years, for starters.

Grover was good enough by Rahsaan Roland Kirk's standards, and he knew
something about saxophone players, so I feel backed up on this one.  If you
don't care for symmetrical music, he's not for you.  But his command of the
instrument, and his ability to groove, well... his version of "Inner City
Blues" is the real stuff.  That's a deep part of my playing tradition, and I
am proud to come from that.  Also, Grover was a beautiful guy who really did
a lot to get Philly guys onto bigger and better things.

And I am not going to apologize for to you or anyone -- no matter what your
objections -- for honestly feeling that something is badly done and saying
so.

skip h


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 03:47:15 -0500
From: "Steve Smith" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Zorn List Change? (PLEASE READ)

JMY is (or was, it seems) Jazz Music Yesterday, a European quasi-bootleg
label with pretty exquisite taste. The "label" released less than 30 discs,
but most of them could be considered "highly discerning" choices. The most
important of these are probably (in my own opinion) 1) Art Ensemble of
Chicago - Eda Wobu; 2) Miles Davis - Paraphernalia; 3) Miles Davis - No
Blues.

The latter two would certainly have ranked higher, had there not been
comparably fine releases from Sony that cover much the same material and
period - though of course it's likely that this would not be the case, had
the quasi-legit releases not caused such a stir. And why did they cause a
stir? Maybe because the legit labels didn't do the job in the first
place...?

Must admit, in spite of my know-it-all-ness so far tonight, that I don't
know any details about Cellar Door. But I'd imagine it's another way in
which Sony plans to milk we fans for more stuff from a source we know to be
genuine...

And the irony to which I referred, of course, was in complaining about lazy
journalists sweeping through Google into an open Z-list Archive to steal
your/my/our ideas, while at the same time I was listening to a bootleg Miles
CD that earned a profit for several people who weren't Miles...

Steve Smith
[e-mail]
NP - Miles Davis, "Miles Runs the Voodoo Down," 'Paraphernalia' (JMY)

- -----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail]
[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Marcin Gokieli

> NP - Miles Davis, "Bitches Brew," 'Paraphernalia' (JMY)
> ...well aware of the contradiction between my above request and my present
> NP...

what do you mean by JMY? (any special edition, etc? Am i just too nervous
about miles' 67- 74  releases?) And where does the contradiction come from?
And BTW - any info about the upcomieng 'cellar door live' box set?



- -


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 03:49:52 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: free jazz (was spontaneous performance/composition)

In a message dated 01.21.02 03:46:17, [e-mail] writes:

>And I am not going to apologize for to you or anyone -- no matter what
>your objections -- for honestly feeling that something is badly done and
saying
>so.

yeah, i thought grover's voice was badly done, too.  but then again, i
expressed my feelings for the more avant-garde muppet show over the lesser
and less postmodern and generally genius sesame street...  but i digress...





- -----
hard to be an easy to please composer.
(mike rosenthal)

where there's a mission, there's a missionary.
(jim altieri)




k a t e  p e t e r s o n
composer / performer
<A HREF="mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>
<A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/uforbk8/kate.html">
http://www.geocities.com/uforbk8/kate.html</A>

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 10:01:27 +0100
From: "Marcin Gokieli" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Odp: Zorn List Change? (PLEASE READ)

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>

> And the irony to which I referred, of course, was in complaining about
lazy
> journalists sweeping through Google into an open Z-list Archive to steal
> your/my/our ideas, while at the same time I was listening to a bootleg
Miles
> CD that earned a profit for several people who weren't Miles...

I may just add that I'm just writing an article on "director's cut" of the
movies, using some opinions from this list, and trying to find as much on
the web as possible... ;-)
Marcin


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 10:43:44 +0100
From: "Marcin Gokieli" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Odp: Ornette Coleman Is God

I fully second Skip's lack of enthousiasm for Ornette's playing. I just
can't see how one could compare the things hie did with 'filles de
kilimanjaro' or 'Get up with it'. He was pretty succesful in convincing
people that what he was doing was creative, but not as succesful as musician
And Skip, what do you mean by 'later' Zappa bands you don't like? everything
after early MOI? '80s bands?
Marcin



- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 01:57:34 -0800
From: Skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Odp: Ornette Coleman Is God

> I fully second Skip's lack of enthousiasm for Ornette's playing. I just
> can't see how one could compare the things hie did with 'filles de
> kilimanjaro' or 'Get up with it'. He was pretty succesful in convincing
> people that what he was doing was creative, but not as succesful as musician
> And Skip, what do you mean by 'later' Zappa bands you don't like? everything
> after early MOI? '80s bands?
> Marcin
>
The 88 band was kind of the height of great technique/not much fun
personality for me.  I think his best band was the scaled down 74 line-up.
 (YCDTOSA, Vol 2).  My own weird personal theory -- and this is based on
what friends of mine who worked with FZ said about their time with him -- is
that he lost something personal when he lost Ruth Underwood.  And he didn't
really get it back until, ironically, he found the Synclavier, because I
think that was the first "Oh my god! I never dreamt I could get this sound"
after her.

skip h


- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V3 #690
*******************************


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