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From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest) To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: Zorn List Digest V3 #689 Reply-To: zorn-list Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Zorn List Digest Sunday, January 20 2002 Volume 03 : Number 689 In this issue: - Re: Threadgill Ornette Re: Ornette Re: Ornette Re: Free Jazz & Ornette Ellwood kings of mali/ khan jamal beware cdr faux-brands Re: Ornette Re: Ornette/CT Re: Ornette/CT -grammer-typos Re: Ornette Re: Ornette Re: Ornette Re: Ornette Re: Ornette Re: Ornette Re: Ornette ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 17:06:25 EST From: JonAbbey2@aol.com Subject: Re: Threadgill In a message dated 1/20/02 4:10:00 PM, Jeffcalt@aol.com writes: << As much as I love Air, Threadgill was clearly limited by the trio format, IMO. >> limited compositionally, obviously, but on the other hand, he had a chance to play a lot more himself, which I miss in many of his later projects. Jon www.erstwhilerecords.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 22:35:13 From: "William York" <william_york@hotmail.com> Subject: Ornette >>>>not to mention that "free jazz" seems to be a good way for >pretentious >>>>college students to pass off hours of aimless >noisemaking and stuff as art...<<< >Yeah, I know what you mean. If there's any frat boy who pisses me >off it's that Ornette Coleman. well, i am pretty sure that she was not referring to ornette, but saying that using the term "free jazz" is sometimes a way for people to pass off lame, boring music. although, based on my experiences, i would substitute, like, college radio djs and pretentious indie rockers for frat boys. but, the term "spontaneous composition" is often used in the same way these days, and is probably even more obnoxious because it's just an overlong and snobby way to say you're improvising. i hate seeing that term in liner notes ... >I don't know if I'd call him a frat boy, but he sure is to Cecil >Taylor >what the Blues Bros are to Sonny Boy Williamson (2). I have to (gasp!) agree with Jon Abbey here. I love CT's music, and I am not a big fan of most of Ornette's post-60s stuff that I have heard, but I love the Golden Circle CDs and the Atlantic stuff, and not because it is radical. (To me it sounds very down-to-earth.) So what if the heads are sloppy -- I love those tunes and still (try to) sing along with his solos on "Ramblin'" and "Una Muy Bonita" and a whole bunch of others every time I listen to them. Also, do you think Old and New Dreams would have even existed if those musicians at least did not have some high opinion of him and/or his music? Will (who just switched from non-capitalized e-mail writing to proper English in this post, for whatever reason...) _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 15:02:33 -0800 From: Skip Heller <velaires@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Ornette > > I have to (gasp!) agree with Jon Abbey here. I love CT's music, and I am not > a big fan of most of Ornette's post-60s stuff that I have heard, but I love > the Golden Circle CDs and the Atlantic stuff, and not because it is radical. > (To me it sounds very down-to-earth.) So what if the heads are sloppy -- I > love those tunes and still (try to) sing along with his solos on "Ramblin'" > and "Una Muy Bonita" and a whole bunch of others every time I listen to > them. Also, do you think Old and New Dreams would have even existed if those > musicians at least did not have some high opinion of him and/or his music? Honestly, I think they would have. I think those guys were meant to take a certain path and they would have found each other. I feel that way about any organization that works well together. Call it metaphysical. skip h - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 00:01:51 From: "William York" <william_york@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: Ornette >Also, do you think Old and New Dreams would have even existed if >those >musicians at least did not have some high opinion of him and/or >his music? >Honestly, I think they would have. I think those guys were meant to >take >a certain path and they would have found each other. I feel >that way >about any organization that works well together. Call it >metaphysical. Well, let me try again. Do you think that so much of OaND's recorded output (roughly 40%) would have been Ornette tunes if they [cut-and_ paste here] did not have some high opinion of him and/or his music? Also, just looking back through the _Beauty_ box set, it's interesting to see all the people who speak highly of him: Gil Evans, Herbie Hancock, Paul Bley, Shelly Manne, Joe Henderson, Jackie McLean, etc., in addition to the quartet members. Not that their opinions change my gut reaction to OC's music, it just goes to show you (again): People just hear things differently! That said, my favorite quote in there is from Monk: "Man, that cat is nuts!" At least I'm not on rec-music.bluenote anymore. (I was for about two weeks a few years ago.) These types of debates went on so consistently there, and with such less civility and general "intelligence" than on this list, that it was flat-out depressing...worse than the Mr. Bungle list, even! Aeieee!!! WY _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 00:09:46 +0000 From: "thomas chatterton" <chatterton23@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: Free Jazz & Ornette Ellwood á á From: Skip Heller <velaires@earthlink.net> If there's any frat boy who pisses me á á > off it's that Ornette Coleman. > I don't know if I'd call him a frat boy, but he sure is to Cecil Taylor what the Blues Bros are to Sonny Boy Williamson (2). Hmm, well I 'd have to say that the best concert I've ever experienced hands down would be Ornette with the original Prime Time band live at the Opera House in Seattle sometime in the early '80s (I've seen Cecil play 3 times). Or really it should be the Prime Time bands, because the concept was to have two trios (guitar, bass, drums) playing interlocking grooves, also combining as a sextet, with Ornette playing over top. So wrap your head around that sound, 2 guitarists (Bern Nix, Charles Ellerbee), 2 bassists (Tacuma, Al MacDowell), 2 drummers (Calvin Weston, Denardo) all soloing simultaneously, yet wrapping their complementary styles around each other, while Ornette soared above, holding it all together. And if ever there was a band out on the edge, on the verge of falling apart, this was it - in fact when I caught the same group a couple of years later, they were falling apart more keeping it together, mainly due to a bad mix (you can imagine trying to mix that group). But the first time they flew, and it was the aural equivalent of being in an open cockpit of a 747 during takeoff. It's too bad there's no live stuff from this band available. Still, I can see why Ornette keeps getting dissed, like someone else mentioned, he's a bit of a trickster, and his playing is decidedly uneven. Still, if Cecil Taylor laid the foundation for the '60s free revolution it was Ornette's quartet that took it to the front lines... _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 19:09:51 EST From: Acousticlv@aol.com Subject: kings of mali/ khan jamal << Someone mentioned another excellent Philadelphia vibist, Khan Jamal >> - ----hi alan, that was me. the new roy campbell on thirsty ear 'its krunch time' features khan jamal, perhaps even more than it does roy himself. i like it. doe anyone know why when india navig reissued nearly all its vinyl in expanded cd editions, the kingds of mali, the one i never did get on vinyl, never made it to silver? thanks steve koenig n.p.: copenhagen sax qt/ 6 danish composers/ classico-olufsen via qualiton - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 19:13:25 EST From: Acousticlv@aol.com Subject: beware cdr faux-brands << name brands like maxwell and tdk >> funny you should say this, as just like with cassettes and batteries, beware deliberate imitations such as maxWell, not maxell, and durOcell instead of durAcell, TOK/TDK, etc. love to all steve koenig martin luther king spirit day/ n.p.: max roach/ it's time n.p.: - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 16:19:05 -0800 From: Skip Heller <velaires@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Ornette > > Well, let me try again. Do you think that so much of OaND's recorded output > (roughly 40%) would have been Ornette tunes if they [cut-and_ paste here] > did not have some high opinion of him and/or his music? Doesn't matter one whit to me. I honestly don't think about that stuff. > Also, just looking back through the _Beauty_ box set, it's interesting to > see all the people who speak highly of him: Gil Evans, Herbie Hancock, Paul > Bley, Shelly Manne, Joe Henderson, Jackie McLean, etc., in addition to the > quartet members. Not that their opinions change my gut reaction to OC's > music, it just goes to show you (again): People just hear things > differently! Yeah, I hear it as sloppy and out of tune. A lot of people speak highly of a great many things I find objectionable. There are people who think Archie Schepp is better than Howlin' Wolf. I find that objectionable. And, my conclusions re Ornette are not at all favorable towards him. As for his importance to a period in time, I think -- and in fact I am sure - -- his greatest contribution was to take an aggressive step where people could and would hear about it. Probably the best quote on Ornette came fr Big Jay McNeely, qho Ornette claimed as an influence on his own playing: "You'd've thought I could have influenced him to play in tune." skip h - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 19:27:26 -0500 (EST) From: Ken Waxman <mingusaum@yahoo.ca> Subject: Re: Ornette/CT William/Skip et. al: I'm sort of in the middle here. I think (and I've said before on this list) that Cecil is the most important jazz musician of the later half of the 20th century. I give him these kudos for going his own way and been the person who created the rapprochement between North American and European improvisers, without casting either as subordinate to the other. It has been 20 years between the first time I see him play and when I saw him for three night in NYC a couple of years ago. I could see no lessening in his talents or ability to mesmerize a room. Ornette is different. I think his Atlantic and Blue Note sessions were the most important expression of post-bop to come along. Listen to those weirdly-titled discs like Change of the Century -- the rhythm section could back up any bebopper. That said, I have to admit that OC's electric experiments have less than impressed me. And yes, I did see him live. I've made a point of listening to as much Ornette as I can and getting his discs, including the "piano" sessions with Geri Allen etc. and IMHO he sounds like any other older mainstream musician. He's playing well, but the innovation has gone. So cast my vote for the early Ornette and Cecil's lifetime. Ken Waxman - --- William York <william_york@hotmail.com> wrote: > >Also, do you think Old and New Dreams would have > even existed if >those > >musicians at least did not have some high opinion > of him and/or >his music? > > >Honestly, I think they would have. I think those > guys were meant to >take > >a certain path and they would have found each > other. I feel >that way > >about any organization that works well together. > Call it >metaphysical. > ===== Ken Waxman mingusaum@yahoo.ca www.jazzword.com - Jazz/improv news, CD reviews and photos ______________________________________________________ Send your holiday cheer with http://greetings.yahoo.ca - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 19:31:45 -0500 (EST) From: Ken Waxman <mingusaum@yahoo.ca> Subject: Re: Ornette/CT -grammer-typos And please excuse all those written-in-haste typos which made some of what I said sound like it was coming from even more of an illiterate than I am. kw - --- Ken Waxman <mingusaum@yahoo.ca> wrote: > William/Skip et. al: > > I'm sort of in the middle here. I think (and I've ===== Ken Waxman mingusaum@yahoo.ca www.jazzword.com - Jazz/improv news, CD reviews and photos ______________________________________________________________________ Web-hosting solutions for home and business! http://website.yahoo.ca - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 01:20:01 From: "William York" <william_york@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: Ornette >People just hear things differently! >Yeah, I hear it as sloppy and out of tune. Well, fuck it, so much for the diplomatic approach. I hear it as sloppy and out of tune and melodic and unpredictable and a lot more inspiring than most stuff that is played with more conventionally better technique. Then again, a lot of stuff I like is often out of tune and sloppy (Chadbourne, a lot of stuff on Bulb and Load and Amarillo, etc.), while the other half is considered too technical or complex (Cecil Taylor, most metal, etc.). So, whatever. >Probably the best quote on Ornette came fr Big Jay McNeely, qho >Ornette >claimed as an influence on his own playing: >"You'd've thought I could have influenced him to play in tune." Well, apparently he didn't, big deal. xoxo, Will (done with this silly argument for fear of sounding like a rec.music.bluenoter !!!) _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 17:25:19 -0800 From: Skip Heller <velaires@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Ornette > > Well, fuck it, so much for the diplomatic approach. I hear it as sloppy and > out of tune and melodic and unpredictable and a lot more inspiring than most > stuff that is played with more conventionally better technique. actually, the only guy who sounds bad to me in there is ornette. i think cherry was/is the spark that moved that band. skip h - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 20:32:07 EST From: TagYrIt@aol.com Subject: Re: Ornette - --part1_164.7736691.297cc997_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/20/02 8:21:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, william_york@hotmail.com writes: > Well, fuck it, so much for the diplomatic approach. I hear it as sloppy and > out of tune and melodic and unpredictable and a lot more inspiring than > most > stuff that is played with more conventionally better technique. Then again, > > a lot of stuff I like is often out of tune and sloppy I have to agree with this...otherwise, Kenny G would be some kind of ideal? Dale. - --part1_164.7736691.297cc997_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <HTML>In a message dated 1/20/02 8:21:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, william_york@hotmail.com writes: <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Well, fuck it, so much for the diplomatic approach. I hear it as sloppy and out of tune and melodic and unpredictable and a lot more inspiring than most stuff that is played with more conventionally better technique. Then again, a lot of stuff I like is often out of tune and sloppy </BLOCKQUOTE> I have to agree with this...otherwise, Kenny G would be some kind of ideal? Dale. </HTML> - --part1_164.7736691.297cc997_boundary-- - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 20:49:39 -0500 From: Mike Chamberlain <mikec@rocler.qc.ca> Subject: Re: Ornette on 1/20/02 7:19 PM, Skip Heller at velaires@earthlink.net wrote: > > Yeah, I hear it as sloppy and out of tune. I have always thought that this is part of Ornette's charm. - --Mike - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 21:00:21 -0500 From: Rick Lopez <bb10k@velocity.net> Subject: Re: Ornette on 02.01.20 8:49 PM, Mike Chamberlain at mikec@rocler.qc.ca wrote: > on 1/20/02 7:19 PM, Skip Heller at velaires@earthlink.net wrote: > > >> >> Yeah, I hear it as sloppy and out of tune. > > I have always thought that this is part of Ornette's charm. Yeah-- but "out of tune" implies that you can't hear the in-betweeners, doesn't it? He doesn't sound "out of tune"-- he sounds much more colorful than in-tune allows one to be. Looser, more free, more alive, more organic, more enabled, more expressive, more MORE. What the hell's been going on while I was away... RL - ---------- *** Many THINGS 4 SALE *** [Updated: 01.12.01] http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k/ChipsInCashing.html - ---------- [ All of the below and much more at: http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k ] Sessionographies : CRISPELL; IBARRA; Wm. PARKER; RIVERS; SHIPP; D.S. WARE. Discographies : COURVOISIER; ENEIDI; MANERI; MORRIS; SPEARMAN; THREADGILL; WORKMAN. Samuel Beckett Eulogy; Baseball & the 10,000 Things; Time Stops; LOVETORN; HARD BOIL; LUCILLE, a Reverential Journal of the Care of the Beloved Hag-- ETC., - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 22:42:51 -0500 From: Mike Chamberlain <mikec@rocler.qc.ca> Subject: Re: Ornette on 1/20/02 9:00 PM, Rick Lopez at bb10k@velocity.net wrote: The ever eloquent Senor Lopez comes to the rescue. > > Yeah-- but "out of tune" implies that you can't hear the in-betweeners, > doesn't it? Well, in tune doesn't matter to Ornette at all, AFAICT. I don't think it's very productive to judge him against "normal" standards of intonation. The only thing I care about any music is if it does something for me emotionally, and at least the early Ornette does, very, very much. > He doesn't sound "out of tune"-- he sounds much more colorful > than in-tune allows one to be. Looser, more free, more alive, more organic, > more enabled, more expressive, more MORE. Uhhh, yeah. > > What the hell's been going on while I was away... As they say in baseball, you can look it up. - --Mike - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 20:35:17 -0800 From: Skip Heller <velaires@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Ornette > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. - --MS_Mac_OE_3094403717_12730251_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/20/02 8:21:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, william_york@hotmail.com writes: Well, fuck it, so much for the diplomatic approach. I hear it as sloppy and out of tune and melodic and unpredictable and a lot more inspiring than most stuff that is played with more conventionally better technique. Then again, a lot of stuff I like is often out of tune and sloppy I have to agree with this...otherwise, Kenny G would be some kind of ideal? Dale. He is some kind of ideal. He is the posterboy for sterility. skip h - --MS_Mac_OE_3094403717_12730251_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable <HTML> <HEAD> <TITLE>Re: Ornette</TITLE> </HEAD> <BODY> <BLOCKQUOTE>In a message dated 1/20/02 8:21:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, william_york@h= otmail.com writes: <BLOCKQUOTE>Well, fuck it, = so much for the diplomatic approach. I hear it as sloppy and out of tune and melodic and unpredictable and a lot more inspiring than mos= t stuff that is played with more conventionally better technique. Then again,= a lot of stuff I like is often out of tune and sloppy </BLOCKQUOTE> I have to agree with this...otherwise, Kenny G would be some kind of ideal?= Dale. </BLOCKQUOTE> He is some kind of ideal. He is the posterboy for sterility. skip h </BODY> </HTML> - --MS_Mac_OE_3094403717_12730251_MIME_Part-- - - ------------------------------ End of Zorn List Digest V3 #689 ******************************* To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to "majordomo@lists.xmission.com" with "unsubscribe zorn-list-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "zorn-list-digest" in the commands above with "zorn-list". Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from ftp.xmission.com, in pub/lists/zorn-list/archive. These are organized by date. Problems? Email the list owner at zorn-list-owner@lists.xmission.com