ftp.xmission.com/2014.06.ftp.xmission.com.tar/ftp.xmission.com/pub/lists/zorn-list/archive/v03.n618

Internet Message Format | 2001-11-16 | 24KB

From: [e-mail] (Zorn List Digest)
To: [e-mail]
Subject: Zorn List Digest V3 #618
Reply-To: zorn-list
Sender: [e-mail]
Errors-To: [e-mail]
Precedence: bulk


Zorn List Digest      Saturday, November 17 2001      Volume 03 : Number 618



In this issue:
-
       Re: re. zorn/zionism (and some music stuff)
       Radical, man, really radical
       Naked City
       Re: re. zornism
       Odp: Naked City
       physicist's views on religion, was: Re: re. zorn/zionism (and some music stuff)
       Radical Christianity, was: Re: re. zorn/zionism (and some music stuff)
       Re: Naked City
       Yahowa 13
       zorn/zionism
       Re: re. zorn/zionism (and some music stuff)
       Re: Radical, man, really radical
       Re: re. zornism
       Re: zorn/zionism: jazz's birth
       Re: Radical, man, really radical

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 00:21:55 -0600
From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: re. zorn/zionism (and some music stuff)

On Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 12:17:08AM -0500, Mike Chamberlain wrote:
> on 11/16/01 5:19 PM, Patrice L. Roussel at [e-mail] wrote:
>
> >
> > Reminds me the statement from Weinberg:
> >
> > "With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people
> > can do evil; but for good people to do evil -- that takes religion."
>
> I guess that capitalism and materialism would then qualify as, if not
> exactly religions, then religious in the same sense.

Which also goes to show that looking to a physicist for views on
religion is about as trustworthy as, say, looking to a linguist for
views on politics. Or basing your taste in music on what Linus
Torvalds listens to.

- --
|> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <|
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 07:55:40 +0000
From: "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Radical, man, really radical

From the Dictionary of Critical Sociology
(http://www.public.iastate.edu/~rmazur/dictionary/r.html):


Radical: Latin: radicalis = having roots. One whose analysis suggests that a
fundamental change in social paradigm is required in order to solve
problems. Most marxists/radicals believe that the root of most social
problems are to be found in the political economy; those of capitalism
(contradictions) cannot be solved within the system--only transferred to
other parts of the system or to other countries. Feminists believe that
patriarchy must be destroyed [not males but male prerogatives and female
oppressions]. Black power advocates insist that racism must be sent to the
dust-heap of history. Most right-wing radicals [liberals] believe that the
government (the state) should abandon all attempts to regulate the economy,
to solve social problems, or to provide services not available on the free
market. Other Right-wing radicals believe that the liberal state should be
replaced by one supporting gender, class, religious or ethnic privilege.

Radical criminology. A marxist approach to the theory of crime and crime
prevention. It has several assumptions: (a) that there is considerable
political influence in which behavior is defined as a legal wrong, (b) that
the causes of crimes are largely social-loss of community and obstacles to
Species being, and (c) reduction in antisocial behavior requires social
change rather than individual therapy or punishment. The U.S. has the
highest crime rate in the world, the largest surplus population, the
greatest wealth, and the least community. These factors are not unrelated.
In the United States, radical criminology was located at the University of
Berkeley until it was abolished by the university administration as
politically dangerous.

Radical feminism: A struggle against both capitalism and patriarchy. Central
to radical feminism are the assumptions that socialist revolution does not
automatically liberate women; that women should not trust men to "liberate"
them "after the revolution" and that women should take responsibility for
their own liberation (as, indeed, should all oppressed people). Part of the
theory holds that the liberation of women liberates men in the same instant
from their sexism. (From Amy Bridges and Heide Hartman).

Radical Psychology: The radical movement in psychology links the best
conditions for a development of the personality and release of creative
energies to a change in social relations and institutions. This requires the
overthrow of class and power relations through whatever means are
appropriate in a given historical context. Psychopathy is more of a social
issue than a personal failing or internal conflict. Therapy involves a
concern with internal distortions and with relief of private anguish but
within the context of supportive social relationships rather through
chemotherapy or individual therapy.

Radical sociology: A movement within bourgeois sociology which aims to use
social science for human purpose rather than managerial purposes. The
position of the radical sociologist is that the scientific theories and
methods of constructing social reality at home, at work, in politics and
education should be at least as decent and rational as the folk theories and
methods which are displaced. The prospect is not good at this time. About 5%
of American sociologists view themselves to be radical and/or marxist
sociologists (1976).

Radical Theatre/Cinema: The use of cinema to reflect upon social
relationships in a critical mode. This contrasts with the use of cinema as a
commodity. There are three structural aspects to radical theatre; 1) it
creates an honest dialectic between two or more difficult choices; 2) it
erases the line between actors and audience and 3) it moves people toward
human agency in real life. Berthold Brecht's plays were deliberately radical
in this sense.


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 08:01:26 +0000
From: "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Naked City

All that Masada and only now Naked City?  Zorn should release a live Naked
City recording every year for awhile.  That would pay for a lot of other new
releases.

NP: Jean Dubuffet, Experiences Musicales, Mandala

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 01:33:20 -0800
From: Jim Flannery <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: re. zornism

thomas chatterton wrote:
>
> >From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
> >
> >Actually, if i were to look for a well known example of Radical
> >Christian Culture, analagous to the Tzadik Radical Jewish Culture
> >series, it would be the movie "Dogma".
>
> Or you might try 'Greaser's Palace', directed by Robert Downey (Sr.)

Of course, those are *movies*, which are not really analogous to *records* at
all ;-).

For Radical Christian *Musical* Culture, the first reference that immediately
presents itself to my (thrice-warped) mind is (post-1990) Current 93.

- --
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jim Flannery                                             [e-mail]

         "For children are innocent and love justice; while most
          of us are wicked and naturally prefer mercy"
                                                     -- G.K. Chesterton
np: Space Dust, _First to the Future_
nr: James Elkins, _What Painting Is_

- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 11:21:58 +0100
From: "Marcin Gokieli" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Odp: Naked City

(Efren giving NC recs):
> Dont buy "Absinthe" (100% ambient)


If, as you said, you do not want stuff without beat - it's a great
album, my favourite NC.
Marcin


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 13:53:55 +0100
From: "Remco Takken" <[e-mail]>
Subject: physicist's views on religion, was: Re: re. zorn/zionism (and some music stuff)

> > >
> > > Reminds me the statement from Weinberg:
> > >
> > > "With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people
> > > can do evil; but for good people to do evil -- that takes religion."
> >
> > I guess that capitalism and materialism would then qualify as, if not
> > exactly religions, then religious in the same sense.
>
> Which also goes to show that looking to a physicist for views on
> religion is about as trustworthy as, say, looking to a linguist for
> views on politics. Or basing your taste in music on what Linus
> Torvalds listens to.
>
It's not about 'thrustworthiness', I feel. A real intellectual view should
be interesting from the point where it really wanders off. A linguist thinks
on different lines than a physicist when talking politics, which *can* be
fresh and original.

Another example: psychiatrists often have completely original views when
diagnosing fictional novel characters for instance.

What you should never do yourself, is blindly basing your own thoughts on
what some so-called authority feels.
Regards, Remco


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 13:35:30 +0100
From: "Remco Takken" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Radical Christianity, was: Re: re. zorn/zionism (and some music stuff)

> or St Gregory of Nyssa in San Francisco. You can complain about
> Torquemada or praise Mother Theresa.
>
Let's stay critical about ALL kinds of people, also Mother Theresa. Has she
ever been giving away condoms to prevent AIDS under the poor? Why do you
think she hasn't?

Why is secular charity so screaming unsuccesful in Africa, too? Perhaps
because there are eighty (and many of them commercial) organisations
fighting each other in order to help? If they solved the problem
collectively, they would losing their own uplifting jobs. That is really
bad. Please don't stay focused on criticising one block of people, while
forgetting others.

But to go back to African charity, Radical Christianity doesn't sound so
good either: if radical help organisations are really radical, they might
only want to help you out, but only if you sign for Jesus. But perhaps that
is not so big a problem, if dying is your only other choice...

'Radical' sure is a difficult term, and one should really think where and
when it is OK to be radical. Zorn makes radical records, and he points out
the Jewish connection in them. Is there any harm in it?

Regards, Remco


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 15:23:26 +0100
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Efr=E9n_del_Valle?= <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Naked City

> (Efren giving NC recs):
> > Dont buy "Absinthe" (100% ambient)
>
>
> If, as you said, you do not want stuff without beat - it's a great
> album, my favourite NC.
> Marcin

I'm glad that it's your favorite but he wants some beat!!  I like it too but
I stick to what he's diggin'-
I'd tell him to go and buy them all but that's not the point.

Best,

EfrΘn del Valle
n.p: JZ "Filmworks X"


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 15:46:02 +0100
From: Jerzy Matysiakiewicz <[e-mail]>
Subject: Yahowa 13

I've just purchesed the copy of CD "Golden Sunrise" of the Yahowa 13.

Could You give more info 'bout this outfit


Jerzy


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 15:48:47 +0100
From: duncan youngerman <[e-mail]>
Subject: zorn/zionism

Let other people judge whether Zorn's music is "radical" or not=2E It's
not something for the artist to decrete, unless he wants to sound
pretentious=2E
(can you imagine Moderate Celtic Dance Culture, or Middle-of-the-road
Hutu Photographic Culture?)

As for jewishness, do we really need ethnic labeling at this point in
human history?
Who cares if Johann Strauss, George Gershwin, Dimitri Shostakovitch,
Gy=F6rgy Ligeti, Elliott Sharp or Barbra Streisand were or are "jewish",
what does it have to do with their work, and what do they have to do
with each other?

Are half-jewish musicians allowed in the club?Are one-fifth jews?
Are non-ethnic jewish followers of the Torah? Are ethnic jewish
followers of Thor?
Is Ariel Sharon a member of the fan-club?
What's it got to do with music?

DY=2E


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 11:05:22 -0500
From: Mike Chamberlain <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: re. zorn/zionism (and some music stuff)

on 11/17/01 1:21 AM, Joseph Zitt at [e-mail] wrote:

> On Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 12:17:08AM -0500, Mike Chamberlain wrote:
>> on 11/16/01 5:19 PM, Patrice L. Roussel at [e-mail] wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Reminds me the statement from Weinberg:
>>>
>>> "With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people
>>> can do evil; but for good people to do evil -- that takes religion."
>>
>> I guess that capitalism and materialism would then qualify as, if not
>> exactly religions, then religious in the same sense.
>
> Which also goes to show that looking to a physicist for views on
> religion is about as trustworthy as, say, looking to a linguist for
> views on politics. Or basing your taste in music on what Linus
> Torvalds listens to.

Nah, I just think that Weinberg didn't get out too much.

- --Mike


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 11:58:38 -0600
From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Radical, man, really radical

On Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 07:55:40AM +0000, Bill Ashline wrote:

> >From the Dictionary of Critical Sociology
> (http://www.public.iastate.edu/~rmazur/dictionary/r.html):

Good stuff! The definitions all do come from a common jargon of
academic/post-Marxist concepts, but they present well a debunking of
the idea that all radicalism is toward the right. (There are also
points there that use the term 'liberal' in the European rather than
the American sense, which may lead to some confusion, but it always
does.)

- --
|> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <|
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 11:59:55 -0600
From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: re. zornism

On Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 01:33:20AM -0800, Jim Flannery wrote:

> Of course, those are *movies*, which are not really analogous to *records* at
> all ;-).

Why not?

- --
|> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <|
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 13:03:43 -0500 (EST)
From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: zorn/zionism: jazz's birth

Duncan:

No quarrel with your thesis, but *please* don't repeat
ther hoary old clichΘ that:
"Jazz was born out of the bordellos and military
parades of New Orleans."

The bordellos in the quarter were segregated which
meant that anyone in a white bordello would never hear
jazz and none of the bordellos of any color employerd
jazz bands. An occasional pianist worked there (cf
Jelly Roll Morton), but I'm sure if his improvisations
got too far out, he'd be out as well.

Also think those parades might be more to do with
funerals and festivals than the military.

Ken Waxman


- --- duncan youngerman <[e-mail]> wrote:
> The problem is the word "radicalism". Throughout
> History all the way to
> today's headline news, it's meant 1 thing :
> intolerance.
>
> Intolerance for the different, for the moderate, for
> the"impure", for
> the mixed, for the heterogenous, for the complex.
>
> In Art it is sometimes interesting, (although even
> Boulez gave up his
> "Polyphonie X" in 1950 as musically worthless after
> having for a long
> while hoped to create the ultimate total serialism
> masterpiece).
>
> In religion and/or politics, however, it's only
> meant Totalitarianism.
>
> Unfathomable bloodletting. Unfathomable mind
> numbing.
>
> When someone says: "I'd love to hear radical islamic
> music", one just
> has to pinch one's self:
> Taliban law (and you cannot get more radically
> islamic than that)
> punishes any playing of music or singing with stiff
> jail sentences.
> Iranian and Saudi Arabian laws fare only slightly
> better.
>
> Bach was deeply protestant, -but not radically. He
> mingled and worked
> with jews and catholics, and his approach to
> religion was earthy,
> sensual, oecumenical, a far cry from "The Scarlet
> Letter".
>
> Michelangelo was more humanistic pagan than
> catholic, a very far cry
> from the Inquisition.
>
> Jazz was born out of the bordellos and military
> parades of New Orleans.
>
> Nothing to do whatsoever with religion or any sort
> of radicalism.
>
> To hear it all of a sudden refered to as or used as
> a model for some
> sort of messaianic ethnic mafia is not only ignorant
> and cretinous
> beyond belief, it betrays utter deafness.
>
> D.Y.
>
>
> -
>


_______________________________________________________
Build your own website in minutes and for free at http://ca.geocities.com

- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 13:15:57 -0500 (EST)
From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Radical, man, really radical

Bill:

Just as a matter of interest is there Radical Social
Anthropology?

Ken Waxman
- --- Bill Ashline <[e-mail]> wrote:
> From the Dictionary of Critical Sociology
>
(http://www.public.iastate.edu/~rmazur/dictionary/r.html):
>
>
> Radical: Latin: radicalis = having roots. One whose
> analysis suggests that a
> fundamental change in social paradigm is required in
> order to solve
> problems. Most marxists/radicals believe that the
> root of most social
> problems are to be found in the political economy;
> those of capitalism
> (contradictions) cannot be solved within the
> system--only transferred to
> other parts of the system or to other countries.
> Feminists believe that
> patriarchy must be destroyed [not males but male
> prerogatives and female
> oppressions]. Black power advocates insist that
> racism must be sent to the
> dust-heap of history. Most right-wing radicals
> [liberals] believe that the
> government (the state) should abandon all attempts
> to regulate the economy,
> to solve social problems, or to provide services not
> available on the free
> market. Other Right-wing radicals believe that the
> liberal state should be
> replaced by one supporting gender, class, religious
> or ethnic privilege.
>
> Radical criminology. A marxist approach to the
> theory of crime and crime
> prevention. It has several assumptions: (a) that
> there is considerable
> political influence in which behavior is defined as
> a legal wrong, (b) that
> the causes of crimes are largely social-loss of
> community and obstacles to
> Species being, and (c) reduction in antisocial
> behavior requires social
> change rather than individual therapy or punishment.
> The U.S. has the
> highest crime rate in the world, the largest surplus
> population, the
> greatest wealth, and the least community. These
> factors are not unrelated.
> In the United States, radical criminology was
> located at the University of
> Berkeley until it was abolished by the university
> administration as
> politically dangerous.
>
> Radical feminism: A struggle against both capitalism
> and patriarchy. Central
> to radical feminism are the assumptions that
> socialist revolution does not
> automatically liberate women; that women should not
> trust men to "liberate"
> them "after the revolution" and that women should
> take responsibility for
> their own liberation (as, indeed, should all
> oppressed people). Part of the
> theory holds that the liberation of women liberates
> men in the same instant
> from their sexism. (From Amy Bridges and Heide
> Hartman).
>
> Radical Psychology: The radical movement in
> psychology links the best
> conditions for a development of the personality and
> release of creative
> energies to a change in social relations and
> institutions. This requires the
> overthrow of class and power relations through
> whatever means are
> appropriate in a given historical context.
> Psychopathy is more of a social
> issue than a personal failing or internal conflict.
> Therapy involves a
> concern with internal distortions and with relief of
> private anguish but
> within the context of supportive social
> relationships rather through
> chemotherapy or individual therapy.
>
> Radical sociology: A movement within bourgeois
> sociology which aims to use
> social science for human purpose rather than
> managerial purposes. The
> position of the radical sociologist is that the
> scientific theories and
> methods of constructing social reality at home, at
> work, in politics and
> education should be at least as decent and rational
> as the folk theories and
> methods which are displaced. The prospect is not
> good at this time. About 5%
> of American sociologists view themselves to be
> radical and/or marxist
> sociologists (1976).
>
> Radical Theatre/Cinema: The use of cinema to reflect
> upon social
> relationships in a critical mode. This contrasts
> with the use of cinema as a
> commodity. There are three structural aspects to
> radical theatre; 1) it
> creates an honest dialectic between two or more
> difficult choices; 2) it
> erases the line between actors and audience and 3)
> it moves people toward
> human agency in real life. Berthold Brecht's plays
> were deliberately radical
> in this sense.
>
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
> http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
>
>
> -
>


_______________________________________________________
Build your own website in minutes and for free at http://ca.geocities.com

- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V3 #618
*******************************


 To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to
       "[e-mail]"
 with
       "unsubscribe zorn-list-digest"
 in the body of the message.

 For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send
 "help" to the same address.  Do not use quotes in your message.

 A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
 subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "zorn-list-digest"
 in the commands above with "zorn-list".

 Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from ftp.xmission.com, in
 pub/lists/zorn-list/archive.  These are organized by date.

 Problems? Email the list owner at [e-mail]