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Zorn List Digest      Saturday, November 17 2001      Volume 03 : Number 619



In this issue:
-
       Re: zorn/zionism
       Re: radicalism
       Re: zorn/zionism
       Re: zorn/zionism
       7/16ths Serbo-Pashtun
       Re: Yahowa 13
       Review Request:  Insignificance by Jim O'Rourke
       Re: Review Request:  Insignificance by Jim O'Rourke
       Re: Radical, man, really radical
       Re: Radical, man, really radical
       Re: Re: re. zorn/zionism (and some music stuff)
       Re: 7/16ths Serbo-Pashtun
       Re: Re: re. zorn/zionism (and some music stuff)
       Re: Re: re. zorn/zionism (and some music stuff)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 12:32:57 -0600
From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: zorn/zionism

On Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 03:48:47PM +0100, duncan youngerman wrote:
> Let other people judge whether Zorn's music is "radical" or not. It's
> not something for the artist to decrete, unless he wants to sound
> pretentious.

"decrete"?

> (can you imagine Moderate Celtic Dance Culture

Riverdance,

, or Middle-of-the-road
> Hutu Photographic Culture?

Perhaps, if one knows any middle of the road Hutus with cameras and
the resources to develop one's craft.

> As for jewishness, do we really need ethnic labeling at this point in
> human history?

Do we really need to deny that common cultural vocabularies exist among s=
ome artists in shared ethnic/religious communities and are useful in thei=
r work?

> Who cares if Johann Strauss, George Gershwin, Dimitri Shostakovitch,
> Gy=F6rgy Ligeti, Elliott Sharp or Barbra Streisand were or are "jewish"=
,
> what does it have to do with their work, and what do they have to do
> with each other?

Often these things are important to the members of minority groups, in
ways that people who are not members of such groups seem to have
trouble understanding. Look at the way that many black artists, gay
artists, Estonian artists, etc, group together (though not
exclusively) around their common experiential and artistic
vocabularies.

> Are half-jewish musicians allowed in the club?Are one-fifth jews?

The error is in seeing it as a "club" into which people are "allowed".
The other error is in whatever calculation could lead describing
someone as "one fifth Jewish". Would that be someone who had one
Jewish greatgrandmother and another greatgrandmother who had two
Jewish arms and one Jewish leg, but whose other leg was Methodist?

> Are non-ethnic jewish followers of the Torah?

What do you mean by "non-ethnic Jewish"?

> Are ethnic jewish
> followers of Thor?

I suppose the rule of thumb would be whether someone considers himself
to be Jewish. (Though there are boundary cases, like the wacky Jews
for Jesus.)

> Is Ariel Sharon a member of the fan-club?

I don't know what music he listens to.

> What's it got to do with music?

Much music is a human expression and can only with difficulty be
divorced from the background, influences, and vocabulary of the
musician.

- --=20
|> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <|
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 10:21:30 -0800 (PST)
From: Thomas Choate <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: radicalism

the last radical a nihilist eh?
that would correspond the supposed theme of modern
american movie (meaning, that it takes movies 21 yrs
to go where the ...____ (punk? radical?)  have gone).

antiglobalization protest... practical or radical?
nologo.org adbusters.org

nothing dies right? (and we all live happily ever..)
it speaks with a different voice to a different
audience.

our cream filling culture (US) usurps the radical, or
...well maybe not the reactionary...(if only they
really cared What Jesus Would (have) Do(ne).

thats all,
and thanks for the NC info..

amor fati,
sq thomas
- --- duncan youngerman <[e-mail]> wrote:
> 6O's radicalism was vital in questioning of the US
> military-industrial
> complex and autistic consummer society, but faced
> with time and reality
> it disolved into 2 paths : integration (Jerry Rubin
> on Wall Street , the
> German govt.Greens supporting US bombings, Dylan
> singing for the Pope,
> etc.), or mass murder/suicide (Charles Manson,
> Symbionese Liberation
> Army, Jones Town, Pol Pot, Luminous Path, etc.).
> Times and values have changed.
> Radicalism is dubious now.
> Na∩ve, dogmatic, nihilistic, dumb.
> Things are no longer felt or expressed in black and
> white.
> Johnny Rotten was the last radical.
>
> DY.
>
>
> -
>


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- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 13:22:46 -0500 (EST)
From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: zorn/zionism

Duncan:

It doesn't have much to do with music except
sociologically. That is the group in power always
defines "others" in terms of their separateness. Below
you wonder about musiscians who are one-half and/or
one-fifth Jewish are members of the club. No, the
ruler's club has merely be given anothger reason to
exclude them from the more important club.

When the last time you heard a person referred to as
half-Christian or one-fifth Christian, or half-White
or one-fifth White.

It all depends on who is making the club rules.

Ken Waxman

- --- duncan youngerman <[e-mail]> wrote:
> Let other people judge whether Zorn's music is
> "radical" or not. It's
> not something for the artist to decrete, unless he
> wants to sound
> pretentious.
> (can you imagine Moderate Celtic Dance Culture, or
> Middle-of-the-road
> Hutu Photographic Culture?)
>
> As for jewishness, do we really need ethnic labeling
> at this point in
> human history?
> Who cares if Johann Strauss, George Gershwin,
> Dimitri Shostakovitch,
> Gy÷rgy Ligeti, Elliott Sharp or Barbra Streisand
> were or are "jewish",
> what does it have to do with their work, and what do
> they have to do
> with each other?
>
> Are half-jewish musicians allowed in the club?Are
> one-fifth jews?
> Are non-ethnic jewish followers of the Torah? Are
> ethnic jewish
> followers of Thor?
> Is Ariel Sharon a member of the fan-club?
> What's it got to do with music?
>
> DY.
>
>
> -
>


_______________________________________________________
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- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 12:26:40 -0800
From: Skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: zorn/zionism

This whole thread reminds me of the occasion where Groucho Marx joined the
Beverly Hills Country Club.  He did not know it was restricted, and they
didn't know he was Jewish.  They found out soon enough, and called him into
the office and apologized about having to revoke his membership.

"My wife's not Jewish", Groucho replied, "and so my kids are only half
Jewish."

"So?" the club chairman asked.

"Well," said Groucho, "since the kids are only half Jewish, you agree to let
them stay, but they're only allowed in the pool up to their waist."

skip h


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 21:26:20 +0100
From: duncan youngerman <[e-mail]>
Subject: 7/16ths Serbo-Pashtun

What is admirable about Richard Wagner is his music.

What is lousy about Richard Wagner is his ethno-socio-obsession.

Sure, every artist grows out of specific cultural backgrounds and often needs to refer to them for him or herself.

The problem arises when the music itself becomes secondary to this cultural identity.

You are then dealing with politics.

Narcissistic politics.

Most often making neither good music nor good politics.

D.Y.


>
>
>


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 16:06:35 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Yahowa 13

In a message dated 11/17/01 9:48:09 AM, [e-mail] writes:

<< I've just purchesed the copy of CD "Golden Sunrise" of the Yahowa 13.
Could You give more info 'bout this outfit >>

Yahowha 13 were an early seventies hippie collective led by a guy named
Father Yod (which is where Byron Coley's Massachusetts store/label got its
name from, Ecstatic Yod). they have a couple of quite inspired records, I'm
Gonna Take You Home and Penetration: An Aquarian Symphony, but most of the
rest isn't quite up to snuff. Sky Saxon also appears on a few of their
records.

the Japanese label Captain Trip released a 13 CD box compiling their complete
recordings a couple of years ago, but needless to say, it's for completists
only. the spirit of Yahowha 13 lives on in NYC's No Neck Blues Band, who have
a new disc out on Revenant this week I'm looking forward to hearing.

has anyone else heard Polwechsel 3 or Otomo's Anode yet? very curious to hear
people's opinions on these...

Jon
www.erstwhilerecords.com

- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 17:57:40 -0500
From: David Keffer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Review Request:  Insignificance by Jim O'Rourke

I have seen that the new cd "Insignificance" by Jim O'Rourke is out on Drag
City.  If anybody on the list has heard it, let's hear a review.  I am
interested but have reservations.  By my reckoning, this is the fourth
"pop" record that O'Rourke has released on Drag City, the first three being:
    Bad Timing (1997)
    Eureka (1999)
    Halfway to a Threeway (1999)
Each release in this series has been progressively worse (less original,
more redundant).  Does the new record, Insignificance continue this
downward trend, or is it something different?  Thanks.

David K.

np:  Pleistozaen Mit Wasser - Cecil Taylor & Derek Bailey (FMP, 1989)


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 15:04:29 -0800
From: "s~Z" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Review Request:  Insignificance by Jim O'Rourke

Is it my imagination or all of those titles Nicholas Roeg films?


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 00:23:12 +0000
From: "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Radical, man, really radical

>From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>

>Good stuff! The definitions all do come from a common jargon of
>academic/post-Marxist concepts, but they present well a debunking of
>the idea that all radicalism is toward the right. (There are also
>points there that use the term 'liberal' in the European rather than
>the American sense, which may lead to some confusion, but it always
>does.)


Yes, that's right.  My reason for posting it was simply to cure the tendency
to play just a bit too fast and loose with language on the Z-list.  Actually
I've always seen "radical" in the political sense from a rather Hegelian
view of the spectrum, with radical on the left side, reactionary on the
right side, and liberal, moderate, and conservative in the middle.  Of
course this perspective has the limit of suggesting that "radical" is always
an extreme position that can never be substantiated.  That's why it's good
to see it's etymology in a proper way and see other uses of the word.  You
may have also noted the definition of "religion," which from an etymological
sense, simply means community:

Religion: From the Latin, ligio: I bind; religio; I bind back, I bind fast
[together]. Religion thus refers to any set of beliefs and/or practices
which bind a people together. As most use the word, it refers to a theistic
religion [see theology] but there are billions who live in solidarity with
each other and with nature absent a god concept. Buddhism, secular humanism,
socialist humanism and many forms of paganism sanctify but do not deify.
[See Sanctification, as well as Sacred/Profane]. In marxian terms, religion
is usually alienated self-consciousness. It is a situation in which people
assign to a god or to a devil their own power for creating or destroying.
More generally, religion is a set of principles by which human beings bring
purpose and meaning into their own individual lives while guaranteeing (a
sometimes limited) solidarity between individuals.

One can see from this definition that a person like bin Laden suffers from
alienated self-consciousness, in assigning to god his own power of
destruction.  The same goes for those on the religious right in the U.S. who
justify the American bombing in Afghanistan for similar religious reasons.

So, getting all this back to Zorn, it would be a mistake to see the idea of
"radical Jewish culture" as in some way endorsing a sectarian religious
practice.  What it suggests is a very deep rethinking of what it means to be
Jewish from the standpoint of personal identity, Jewishness being ethnicity
as much as religion.  BTW, Marx, Freud, a lot of the great thinkers, were
themselves Jewish.

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- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 00:43:57 +0000
From: "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Radical, man, really radical

>From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>

>Just as a matter of interest is there Radical Social
>Anthropology?

Unfortunately, the dictionary does not list any but certainly there are,
Ken.  Eric Wolf comes immediately to mind ("Europe and the People without
History," "Peasant Wars of the Twentieth Century") and Michael Taussig
("Mimesis and Alterity").  One could probably call Levi-Strauss' structural
anthropology "radical" but obviously not in a Marxist sense.  Eric Wolf is
one of the better cases, fusing anthropology and history from an
intellectually Marxist perspective.  Then of course there's the anthro dept
at the New School in NYC, the university in exile founded by left academics
fleeing Nazi Germany.  Most of the more well-known people, like Abu-Lughod,
are retired now.  Then of course, there's "radical history" with E.P
Thompson and Christopher Hill being the principals there.  I believe both
are quite dead now.

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- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 01:23:23 +0000
From: "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Re: re. zorn/zionism (and some music stuff)

>From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Re: re. zorn/zionism (and some music stuff)
>
>Which also goes to show that looking to a physicist for views on
>religion is about as trustworthy as, say, looking to a linguist for
>views on politics. Or basing your taste in music on what Linus
>Torvalds listens to.

Pretty crudely essentialist, pal.  Fields don't have walls.

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- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 22:25:11 -0600
From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: 7/16ths Serbo-Pashtun

On Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 09:26:20PM +0100, duncan youngerman wrote:
>
> What is admirable about Richard Wagner is his music.
>
> What is lousy about Richard Wagner is his ethno-socio-obsession.
>
> Sure, every artist grows out of specific cultural backgrounds and often needs to refer to them for him or herself.
>
> The problem arises when the music itself becomes secondary to this cultural identity.
>
> You are then dealing with politics.
>
> Narcissistic politics.
>
> Most often making neither good music nor good politics.

Lousy music + politics = lousy music + politics.

Good music + politics = good music + politics.

I don't think anyone is saying that adding politics makes bad music good
(skipping for the moment what good and bad music are). But when the music
starts off as good, it can resonate in other areas, so that both the
music and the subject benefits.

Not that I care much for Wagner's music -- I thought the scripts to the
Ring cycle were quite good, and that it was unfortunate that the leaden
music got in the way of enjoying them.

- --
|> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <|
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 22:49:21 -0600
From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Re: re. zorn/zionism (and some music stuff)

On Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 01:23:23AM +0000, Bill Ashline wrote:
> >From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
> >Subject: Re: re. zorn/zionism (and some music stuff)
> >
> >Which also goes to show that looking to a physicist for views on
> >religion is about as trustworthy as, say, looking to a linguist for
> >views on politics. Or basing your taste in music on what Linus
> >Torvalds listens to.
>
> Pretty crudely essentialist, pal.  Fields don't have walls.

Sure: but I do see a goofy tendency in people to assume that someone who
excels in one field is automatically equally expert in others.

"Why are we listening to this guy?"
"He won a Nobel Prize in something or other!"
"Oh, then he must know what he's talking about here!"

Thus people get their politics from pop stars and role modeling from
boxers.

- --
|> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <|
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 05:24:47 +0000
From: "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Re: re. zorn/zionism (and some music stuff)

>From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>

>Sure: but I do see a goofy tendency in people to assume that someone who
>excels in one field is automatically equally expert in others.
>
>"Why are we listening to this guy?"
>"He won a Nobel Prize in something or other!"
>"Oh, then he must know what he's talking about here!"
>
>Thus people get their politics from pop stars and role modeling from
>boxers.


It's fame's cruel joke to be certain, but it's also a problem with those who
take their information at face value and don't pursue things further.  I got
my politics initially by listening to a lot of early punk and of course a
lot of sixties stuff.  If it had stopped with that, the politics would have
likely disappeared from my concerns.  I was just reading a statement from
various Nobel Prize winners and well-known philosophers criticizing the war
in Afghanistan.  Seems to me like a worthy application of one's "fame."
Better than just cranking out another fame-enhancing book.  (This statement
will no doubt play well with a certain sector of the list that likes to wear
its anti-intellectualism on its sleeves.)  People should use the efforts of
famous people to become "alert."  After becoming alert, they should wake up
on their own.

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- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V3 #619
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