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Zorn List Digest       Friday, November 16 2001       Volume 03 : Number 616



In this issue:
-
       Re: Attn: Fantomas fans (esp. in Seattle) - Apes of Wrath: 11/16/01
       Re: re. zorn/zionism
       Re: re. zorn/zionism
       RE: game pieces
       Re: game pieces
       Re: game pieces
       Re: game pieces
       Re: re. zorn/zionism (and some music stuff)
       Re: ICP Orchestra fall tour
       =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Bernhard_G=FCnter_(was_zorn/zionism)?=
       radical culture
       Re: re. zorn/zionism (and some music stuff)
       short review of shipp doc
       Fwd: radical culture
       All Of The Above
       Re: re. zorn/zionism
       Re: re. zorn/zionism (and some music stuff)
       Odp: ICP Orchestra fall tour

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 16:17:12 -0800
From: "Peruvian Night Train" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Attn: Fantomas fans (esp. in Seattle) - Apes of Wrath: 11/16/01

    hi, regarding my "promo" tinged post excerpted below, sorry
for not tagging it PROMO in the subject line; i've been off-list for
some time and didn't notice that this was now common practice.
i'll keep that in mind for future promo-motivated posts!  =)
    granted, part of my intention was to simply chime in with a heads
up about this new "fantomas"-like band (APES OF WRATH) that
some of you will surely dig.......esp. given the recent mike patton
talk....but still....their upcoming show was what led me here.
    so anyways, yadda yadda, suffice to say that i hope some of
you out there get a kick out of the Apes of Wrath mp3's found at
their site! (see below)

in parting, i quote ICHIRO:
"it is in the seeking that you find satisfaction" (Seattle - 2001)

happy trails, james kirchmer

> Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 17:46:46 -0800
> From: "Peruvian Night Train" <[e-mail]>
> Subject: Attn: Fantomas fans (esp. in Seattle) - Apes of Wrath: 11/16/01
> hi there - i write to let all of you know about a Seattle-based band, Apes
> of Wrath, that would certainly appeal to those of you into Fantomas. They
> put on a great, intense live show, and fyi are playing this weekend (Fri,
> 11/16 - in Seattle - www.sitandspin.net / www.apesofwrath.com


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 16:44:07 -0800
From: Skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: re. zorn/zionism

> ---Or how about Radical Christian Culture, or Radical Protestant Culture
> ?!?
>
> Does it seem so relatively unacceptable or unattractive to us because we
> know what it leads to from being closer to it (Jerry Falwell, the
> K.K.K., Northern Ireland, etc.)?
>
> Remember who killed Itzak Rabin... Remember the Inquisition... Remember
> Sept. 11...
>
> Religious radicalism cannot pretend to be innocent.
>
> DY.
>
Remember Debra Murphree and then ask yourself this: Can religious radicalism
even claim to be able to get you good looking women?

skip h


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 18:56:13 -0600
From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: re. zorn/zionism

On Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 12:38:13AM +0100, duncan youngerman wrote:
> ---Or how about Radical Christian Culture, or Radical Protestant Culture
> ?!?
>
> Does it seem so relatively unacceptable or unattractive to us because we
> know what it leads to from being closer to it (Jerry Falwell, the
> K.K.K., Northern Ireland, etc.)?

To whom does it seem unaaceptable or unattractive? There is a lot of
interesting and surprising work being done in Christian contexts. Not
being Christian myself, I haven't followed it, but others might pipe
in with examples.

I think the problem may rather be that Christianity is, for better or
worse, taken as a default state in our society, and therefore easily derided by those who opt for facile cynicism.

> Remember who killed Itzak Rabin... Remember the Inquisition... Remember
> Sept. 11...

You appear to choose to focus on incidents of harm. Others choose to
remember the good that religion can also inspire.

> Religious radicalism cannot pretend to be innocent.

Humans cannot pretend not to be human (those some may choose to deflect
it by dismissing others by crudely grouping and marginalizing them).

- --
|> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <|
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 20:36:33 -0600
From: "Bill Thompson, prof lo-fi" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: game pieces

Hi all,

I'd like to say, that when this topic first was brought up I couldn't help
but think, Oh God, here come the flames...seems like that's been going on on
several lists I'm apart of, and I was dreading it here...but no...on the
Zorn list, dedicated to Zorn's music, everyone was honest and open, and
non-threatening...just talking about the Music...what a relief...  :)

Bill
(I've been eavesdropping for a while..)



- -----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail]
[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Kurt Gottschalk
Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 2:30 PM
To: [e-mail]
Subject: game pieces


yeah -- it's been said here before, game pieces are by and large a live
phenomenon. cobra (the one i've seen the most by far) varies dramatically,
sometimes interesting components in the competitive element (players like
zeena parkins and chris cochrane really get the idea of trying to wrest
control from the other players), other times really great music (last month
at tonic, zorn let ribot call the shots for an entire piece (7 minutes, i'd
guess), and ribot built a really great piece of music. at that same
performance (at tonic) jamie saft created two tuba/trombone themes (marcus
rojas/jim staley) and (through zorn's prompts, of course) constructed a
really fun dissonant dixie thing.

there's also elements of real humor in just interpersonal reaction, seperate
from the music, as the players try to push their agendas. chris cochrane
putting on his headband as dramatically as possible and then flailing his
arms to get zorn's attention (zorn stopped the piece and said "chris
cochrane, ladies and gentlemen, to laughter from audience and bandstand) or
sylvie courvessier (sorry bout spelling) getting so wrapped up in picking
people to echo her that she forgot to play anything for them to echo,
leading zorn to have to remind her that she was supposed to play, too.

yeah, it doesn't all translate on disc. as some wise soul said earlier,
that's true (to varying degrees) of all improv. in my opinion, records are
souvenirs (and mind you, i have more than 2,000 souvenirs).

all of that said, i recently finally picked up the parachute box and was
very pleasantly surprised at how well 'pool' and 'hockey' work as music.
i've never seen them performed, but they're good records.

okbye

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp


- -



- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 21:32:25 -0500
From: Rick Lopez <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: game pieces

on 01.11.15 9:36 PM, Bill Thompson, prof lo-fi at [e-mail] wrote:

> I'd like to say, that when this topic first was brought up I couldn't help
> but think, Oh God, here come the flames...seems like that's been going on on
> several lists I'm apart of, and I was dreading it here...but no...on the
> Zorn list, dedicated to Zorn's music, everyone was honest and open, and
> non-threatening...

Why you sonofabitch! Say that again whydontcha!!

Why we oughta...
RL
- ----------
[  All of the below and much more at: http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k  ]

Sessionographies :
CRISPELL;  IBARRA; Wm. PARKER; RIVERS; SHIPP; D.S. WARE.

Discographies :
COURVOISIER; ENEIDI; MANERI; MORRIS; SPEARMAN; THREADGILL; WORKMAN.

Also :
 --Samuel Beckett Eulogy; Baseball & the 10,000 Things; Time Stops;
LOVETORN; HARD BOIL;  ETC.,

WHERE THE HELL HAVE I BEEN??? :
LUCILLE / A Reverential Journal of the Care of the Beloved Hag


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 21:35:33 -0500
From: Rick Lopez <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: game pieces

on 01.11.15 9:36 PM, Bill Thompson, prof lo-fi at [e-mail] wrote:

> here come the flames...

Oh... Sorry, I forgot this part:

;-)


RL
- ----------
[  All of the below and much more at: http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k  ]

Sessionographies :
CRISPELL;  IBARRA; Wm. PARKER; RIVERS; SHIPP; D.S. WARE.

Discographies :
COURVOISIER; ENEIDI; MANERI; MORRIS; SPEARMAN; THREADGILL; WORKMAN.

Also :
 --Samuel Beckett Eulogy; Baseball & the 10,000 Things; Time Stops;
LOVETORN; HARD BOIL;  ETC.,

WHERE THE HELL HAVE I BEEN??? :
LUCILLE / A Reverential Journal of the Care of the Beloved Hag


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 22:35:56 -0600
From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: game pieces

On Thu, Nov 15, 2001 at 08:36:33PM -0600, Bill Thompson, prof lo-fi wrote:

> here come the flames...

They're American flames... made in America... smoking or -- well, I
guess they're all smoking.

- --
|> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <|
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 03:25:32 -0500
From: "Jesse Kudler" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: re. zorn/zionism (and some music stuff)

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Zitt" <[e-mail]>



> On Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 12:38:13AM +0100, duncan youngerman wrote:

> > Does it seem so relatively unacceptable or unattractive to us because we
> > know what it leads to from being closer to it (Jerry Falwell, the

> To whom does it seem unaaceptable or unattractive?

Well, how about "pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the
gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative
lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way"?

I just ordered the new Drumm/Wehowsky disc.  Anyone heard it yet?  Also, any
opinions on the eight new Bernhard Gunter discs that came out in the past
year or so?  I was just listening to some of his old stuff last night for
the first time in a while and was totally floored again, but I'm too broke
to pick up more than one or two of the recent ones anytime soon.  Oh, and
did anyone catch the recent O'Rourke/Licht show at Tonic?  The website
promised "surprising covers" or something like that.  I was pretty psyched
to go see Derek Bailey there in a few weeks with Rod Poole until I realized
that I won't be around, but now I'll probably go see Bailey with Zorn and
Baron, assuming the price isn't as crazy as it can be for Zorn shows.
Derek's also doing a night with Susie Ibarrra.

- -Jesse


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 09:52:59 +0100 (MET)
From: Emmanouil Papagiannakis <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: ICP Orchestra fall tour

And a final touch, back home

Nov 30: Amsterdam, Bimhuis


manolis


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 08:12:32 -0500
From: "Caleb T. Deupree" <[e-mail]>
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Bernhard_G=FCnter_(was_zorn/zionism)?=

 At 03:25 AM 11/16/01 -0500, Jesse Kudler wrote:
>
>Also, any
>opinions on the eight new Bernhard Gunter discs that came out in the past
>year or so?

I'm a fairly big Bernhard fan, so I like 'em.  Then, Silence is one of the
most beautiful pieces he's ever done, a tribute to Feldman and Nono. which
includes recognizable instrumental sounds (piano and strings) and melodies,
and is G=FCnter's least electronic sounding work so far.  I haven't listened
to Crossing the River as much yet, but my recollection is that it's in the
same vein and equally good.  OTOH, Monochrome White is a reworking of an
Immedia piece that is pretty minimal, much closer in sound and spirit to
his earliest works like Detailis Agrandis and Neige Salie.  The two discs
in this set are designed to be played simultaneously, if you have access to
such a setup.  If you're interested in Monochrome White and see it around,
you should probably pick it up; it's a limited edition and already out of
print.

Feel free to express an opinion on the Drumm/Wehowsky after you give it a
few listens.  I'm curious about this one myself.
- --

Caleb Deupree
[e-mail]

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 16:03:21 +0100
From: Rob Allaert <[e-mail]>
Subject: radical culture

On vrijdag, november 16, 2001, at 12:38 , duncan youngerman wrote:

> Religious radicalism cannot pretend to be innocent.

Being radical means being rooted (like a radish). So, being radical should
be encouraged as long as the underlying philosophy is good or acceptable.
Being fanatical, on the other hand, is placing a wrong emphasis on a
detail which can only lead to unbalanced and dangerous lifestyle.

    greetings,
      Rob @ risk
        np: cutting stone - j zorn


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 10:59:06 -0600
From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: re. zorn/zionism (and some music stuff)

On Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 03:25:32AM -0500, Jesse Kudler wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joseph Zitt" <[e-mail]>
>
>
>
> > On Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 12:38:13AM +0100, duncan youngerman wrote:
>
> > > Does it seem so relatively unacceptable or unattractive to us because we
> > > know what it leads to from being closer to it (Jerry Falwell, the
>
> > To whom does it seem unaaceptable or unattractive?
>
> Well, how about "pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the
> gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative
> lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way"?

OK, the problem here is that your suggestion buys into the previous
assumption that the few negative examples represent all of
Christianity.  Again, you can choose to focus on a few negative
examples, or on the large amount of good that has been done. You can
look at Jerry Falwell, or you can look at the Metropolitan Community
Church. You can ferret out someone who's been negative to art, or you
can recognize the good stuff being done at, say, St Stephen and the
Incarnation in Washington, The Cathedral of St John the Divine in NYC,
or St Gregory of Nyssa in San Francisco. You can complain about
Torquemada or praise Mother Theresa.

To say that those few examples make Christianity unacceptable is
precisely like saying that, say, Charles Gayle's opinions make all of
jazz and experimental music unacceptable.

- --
|> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <|
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 13:03:32 -0500
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: short review of shipp doc

http://www.chireader.com/movies/critic.html

(Camper specializes in experimental film.)

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 19:26:13 +0100 (CET)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?efr=E9n=20del=20valle?= <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fwd: radical culture

> Being radical means being rooted (like a radish).
> So, being radical should
> be encouraged as long as the underlying philosophy
> is good or acceptable.
> Being fanatical, on the other hand, is placing a
> wrong emphasis on a
> detail which can only lead to unbalanced and
> dangerous lifestyle.
>
>     greetings,
>       Rob @ risk
>         np: cutting stone - j zorn

Radical=Rooted? I don't think so. IMHO, radical is
just a synonim of fanatic or fundamentalist. There's
no philosopy, religion or policy that comprises
everyone's thinking patters and therefore, accepting
those premises blindly (which is what radicals usually
do), means for me narrow-mindedness and a lack of real
cultural roots as I understand them.

Best,

EfrΘn del Valle
>
> -
>

_______________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Messenger
Comunicaci≤n instantßnea gratis con tu gente.
http://messenger.yahoo.es

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 10:30:47 -0800
From: "s~Z" <[e-mail]>
Subject: All Of The Above

Being a hepcat, I prefer definition #4:

Main Entry: rad╖i╖cal
Pronunciation: 'ra-di-k&l
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Late Latin radicalis, from Latin
radic-, radix root -- more at ROOT
Date: 14th century
1 : of, relating to, or proceeding from a root: as a (1) : of or
growing from the root of a plant <radical tubers> (2) : growing
from the base of a stem, from a rootlike stem, or from a stem that
does not rise above the ground <radical leaves> b : of, relating
to, or constituting a linguistic root c : of or relating to a
mathematical root d : designed to remove the root of a disease or
all diseased tissue <radical surgery>
2 : of or relating to the origin : FUNDAMENTAL
3 a : marked by a considerable departure from the usual or
traditional : EXTREME b : tending or disposed to make extreme
changes in existing views, habits, conditions, or institutions c :
of, relating to, or constituting a political group associated with
views, practices, and policies of extreme change d : advocating
extreme measures to retain or restore a political state of affairs
<the radical right>
4 slang : EXCELLENT, COOL



- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 19:31:05 +0000
From: "thomas chatterton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: re. zorn/zionism

>From: duncan youngerman <[e-mail]>

>---Or how about Radical Christian Culture, or Radical Protestant Culture?!?

We all know what happens to that, i.e. the Cathars, Koresh/Waco...

np: Janacek Strinq Quartets Skampa Quartet



_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 19:41:27 +0000
From: "thomas chatterton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: re. zorn/zionism (and some music stuff)

>From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>

>
>OK, the problem here is that your suggestion buys into the previous
>assumption that the few negative examples represent all of
>Christianity.  Again, you can choose to focus on a few negative
>examples, or on the large amount of good that has been done.

I would have to express the opinion here that historically the Christian
Church has been responsible for much more suffering than good in the world,
and continues to be a major source of oppression for those who are still
deluded by its distorted dogma...

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 20:27:23 +0100
From: "Marcin Gokieli" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Odp: ICP Orchestra fall tour

No other european dates  planed ?:-(((


> And a final touch, back home
>
> Nov 30: Amsterdam, Bimhuis



- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V3 #616
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