ftp.xmission.com/2014.06.ftp.xmission.com.tar/ftp.xmission.com/pub/lists/zorn-list/archive/v03.n612

Internet Message Format | 2001-11-13 | 21KB

From: [e-mail] (Zorn List Digest)
To: [e-mail]
Subject: Zorn List Digest V3 #612
Reply-To: zorn-list
Sender: [e-mail]
Errors-To: [e-mail]
Precedence: bulk


Zorn List Digest     Wednesday, November 14 2001     Volume 03 : Number 612



In this issue:
-
       Careful With That Adze
       Re: Careful With That Adze
       RE: Zorn and Zionism, Daniel Carter article, Acid Mothers interview
       Re: Zorn and Zionism
       Re: early McGregor/Blue Notes releases
       New music in RealAudio on Mappings, week beginning November 13, 2001
       London Gift
       the gift, live?
       Re: Zorn and Zionism
       [none]
       RJC-Zorn-Douglas discussion
       Re:Careful With That Racially Stereotyped Adze
       Fwd:
       Sorry Remco
       Set Fire To Flames
       RE: Set Fire To Flames

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 13:24:29 -0800
From: "s~Z" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Careful With That Adze

By the way, I would love to hear a Radical Muslim Culture series.

Rob
_________________________________

Check out the House of Chadula. Eugene has several appropriate
offerings of such.




- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 23:02:04 +0100
From: "Remco Takken" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Careful With That Adze

> By the way, I would love to hear a Radical Muslim Culture series.
>
> Rob

In Holland, a group of young (Dutch, Spanish and South Indian) musicians and
composers is diving into the mozarabic music culture: they are still way
underground, no recordings yet, just a few impressive world premieres last
summer. Radical Muslim Culture is brewing...



- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 18:19:55 -0500
From: "Steve Smith" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Zorn and Zionism, Daniel Carter article, Acid Mothers interview

For the sake of clarity and no other reason: Dave Douglas is not Jewish, and
has only contributed to radical Jewish culture as a willing sideman - as he
has proven willing to play with any number of other musicians, regardless of
extramusical considerations.

You're correct about Cohen and Baron, of course. It was Baron, in fact, who
started Zorn on his journey of self-discovery.

And did anybody ever *really* accuse Zorn of "ripping off" African-American
musicians by playing jazz? Or was that Pekar's take on something Zorn said?
I'd be curious to know. I'd think it's been at least a few decades since
anyone has hurled that particular barb at anyone in seriousness, but I might
certainly have my head in the sand there...

Steve Smith
[e-mail]

- -----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail]
[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Remco Takken

[snip] Zorn formed Masada, in part, so that he
could play jazz without being accused of "ripping off" African-American
musicians. The other musicians in the band are Jewish and have all
contributed greatly to the Radical Jewish Series of CD's. [snip]


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 18:36:42 -0500 (EST)
From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn and Zionism

Hello all:


The article cited was pretty amateurish and too "gee
whiz"-ish to cope with such a major topic. It also
took for granted many suppositions about Europe in the
1930s and The Middle East right now that may have
different shadings on further examination.

That said, Remco in his post dealt succiently with
some of the mistatements, but he too included a few
incorrect generalities.

 If you're going to speak about the ethnic breakdown
of the Jazz Composersb Guild, Paul Bley too is Jewish
- --and I'm not sure of Mike Mantler or Jon Winter's
religious affiliation. (And which side of the
Jewish/Gentile equation does Sun Ra fall?)

Also I keep reading about how all the memberes of
Masada are Jewish. Unless I'm missing something I've
always assumed that Dave Douglas is Christian. Am I
wrong?

Ken Waxman


- --- Remco Takken <[e-mail]> wrote:
> > >In the latest edition of Perfect Sound Forever
> > ><http://www.furious.com/perfect>, you'll find
> (among other things):
> > >
> > >ZORN AND ZIONISM
> > >What are the religious/political dimensions of
> the work of the great
> > >saxist/composer/record company maven?  We do
> anticipate constructive
> > >commentary from our friends on this mailing list!
> >
> In above article, there's some wild lawn mowing
> going on, philosophically.
>
> This <long> article tries to cover so much ground,
> that annoyingly dumb
> opinions occur on the side, for instance the much
> repeated statement that
> bebop jazz was an all-black affair, and then,
> sharing the free jazz movement
> under the same black banner. Remember: the
> influential Jazz Composers Guild
> was wildly mixed, for instance. Sun Ra, Paul Bley,
> Cecil Taylor and jewish
> improvisor Burton Greene worked together there.
>
> Genealogical homogeneity in jazz, either bebop or
> free? Where should a guy
> like John Tchicai be put genealogically, being half
> Congolese, half Danish?
>
> These incorrect commonplaces do not help strengthen
> the point that is being
> made. And it doesn't help reading this stuff out.
>
> A long quote, to illustrate my point:
> Cartoonist Harvey Pekar's conversations with Zorn
> about Masada, depicted in
> a short comics series, reveal that Zorn formed
> Masada, in part, so that he
> could play jazz without being accused of "ripping
> off" African-American
> musicians. The other musicians in the band are
> Jewish and have all
> contributed greatly to the Radical Jewish Series of
> CD's. Thus, we have Zorn
> reinterpreting jazz as Jewish, mirroring the
> genealogical homogeneity of the
> original be-bop groups as well as of the groups
> formed by the be-boppers'
> free jazz younger brothers.
>
> However, the difference remains: Zorn's is a
> contrived grouping, Jewish
> players hand-picked out of an extremely diverse
> community of players, while
> the be-bop players lived in, and performed in,
> segregated communities. What
> does it mean to form an all-Jewish jazz group? Why
> is forming an all-Jewish
> jazz group important?
>
> Remco Takken
>
> np: Herbie Hancock, Future Shock (aw... it's space
> shuttle/ pacman
> nostalgia!! Roller Disco...)
>
>
> -
>


_______________________________________________________
Build your own website in minutes and for free at http://ca.geocities.com

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 18:42:59 -0500 (EST)
From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: early McGregor/Blue Notes releases

Or maybe Cuneiform could work out a way with the
owners to add those discs to its already impressive
group of jazz/free improv reissues.

Ken Waxman

(What d'ya think Steve?)

- --- Francesco Martinelli <[e-mail]> wrote:
> > Too bad these came & went so fast; there'd be a
> lot more interest these
> > days...
> >
>
> Maybe you could tell the guy you know there to
> forward the message to Gallo!
>
> Francesco
>
>
> -
>


_______________________________________________________
Build your own website in minutes and for free at http://ca.geocities.com

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 22:21:42 -0600
From: Herb Levy <[e-mail]>
Subject: New music in RealAudio on Mappings, week beginning November 13, 2001

Hi y'all,

This week on Mappings <http://www.antennaradio.com/avant/mappings/>,
you'll hear electronic music from the West Coast of North America by
Martin Bartlett, John Bischoff, Chris Brown, Paul De Marinis, Paul
Dolden, Peter Hannan, Jim Horton, David Mahler, Maggi Payne, and Carl
Stone.

The show went online Monday evening around 10:00 PM (-0500 GMT) and
will remain online at the above URL for a week. Last week's program
(featuring music inspired by Tibetan Buddhist Milarepa composed by
Eliane Radigue) is still available in the Mappings archive
<http://www.antennaradio.com/avant/mappings/index1.htm>, where you
can also find play lists for the program since it began in March 1998.

Hope you tune in to the program.

Bests,

Herb

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 09:30:49 +0000
From: Philip Clarkson <[e-mail]>
Subject: London Gift

> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

- --MS_Mac_OE_3088488654_61540_MIME_Part
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

> Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 11:12:46 +0100
> From: "Marcin Gokieli" <[e-mail]>
> Subject: PD: koncert zorna
> Hi, I 've been asked to put that request on list
>>> Heads up for what should be a fantastic concert at the Barbican in
>> London next year :
>>> John Zorn - The Gift
>>> with Marc Ribot, Jamie Saft, Dave Douglas, Joey Baron & Cyro
> Baptista. World
>>> Premiere. March 25th. Box Office - 020706388891. www.barbican.org
>>>
>>> Phil Clarkson
>> Could someone confirm this? I've just checked the web site (which,
> by the way, is www.barbican.org.uk)
>> and there are only two theatrical events scheduled for March 25th.

Sorry I made a mistake with the website address, but the concert IS going
ahead - it may not be on the site yet. The concert is advertised in
programmes at the current London Jazz Festival.

Phil Clarkson


- --MS_Mac_OE_3088488654_61540_MIME_Part
Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>London Gift</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<TT>> Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 11:12:46 +0100<BR>
> From: "Marcin Gokieli" <[e-mail]><BR>
> Subject: PD: koncert zorna<BR>
> Hi, I 've been asked to put that request on list<BR>
>>> Heads up for what should be a fantastic concert at the Barbica=
n in<BR>
>> London next year :<BR>
>>> John Zorn - The Gift<BR>
>>> with Marc Ribot, Jamie Saft, Dave Douglas, Joey Baron & Cy=
ro<BR>
> Baptista. World<BR>
>>> Premiere. March 25th. Box Office - 020706388891. www.barbican.=
org<BR>
>>> <BR>
>>> Phil Clarkson<BR>
>> Could someone confirm this? I've just checked the web site (which,=
<BR>
> by the way, is www.barbican.org.uk)<BR>
>> and there are only two theatrical events scheduled for March 25th.=
<BR>
<BR>
Sorry I made a mistake with the website address, but the concert IS going a=
head - it may not be on the site yet. The concert is advertised in programme=
s at the current London Jazz Festival.<BR>
<BR>
Phil Clarkson<BR>
</TT>
</BODY>
</HTML>


- --MS_Mac_OE_3088488654_61540_MIME_Part--


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 05:02:29 -0500
From: ahorton <[e-mail]>
Subject: the gift, live?

Hey guys-
I'm looking for a live CDR of the gift, live in NYC. Does anyone have anything
by them? It's my favorite Zorn release.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 12:49:52 +0100
From: "Remco Takken" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn and Zionism

>  If you're going to speak about the ethnic breakdown
> of the Jazz Composersb Guild, Paul Bley too is Jewish

Another future gem in the ongoing radical jewish music series...

Thanks for your rightly addition, Ken

Regards, Remco


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 09:00:42 -0500
From: "Alan Kayser" <[e-mail]>
Subject: [none]

Remco Takken wrote:

"However, the difference remains: Zorn's is a contrived grouping, Jewish
players hand-picked out of an extremely diverse community of players, while
the be-bop players lived in, and performed in, segregated communities. What
does it mean to form an all-Jewish jazz group? Why is forming an all-Jewish
jazz group important?"

Sorry, but Dave Douglas is NOT Jewish!  Straight from the horse's mouth.
And if he were, I would say that Mr. Zorn certainly has the right to form
any sort of group he likes.  Perhaps it was simply picking players that he
felt were best fitted to the music.  This is a mean-spirited and misinformed
statement, no better than blaming Ellington for forming an all-Afro-American
orchestra.  Would you ask "Why is forming an all-Black group important?" or
does this just apply to Jewish musicians?

Alan E. Kayser





_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 11:33:02 -0500
From: "patbor" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RJC-Zorn-Douglas discussion

Robert A. Pleshar and Alan E. Kayser,

thanks for polishing the

RJC-Zorn-Douglas discussion.

Patb

You wrote:


1. Isn't it possible to be "radical" by removing oneself entirely from a
mainstream political dichotomy? Why must one be pro or anti-israel to be
radical?
Another example: If artist A is anti-abortion and audience members are
overwhelmingly pro-choice, does the audience assume that even if artist A
makes anti-abortion statements that artist A condones the killing of
abortion doctors? Of course not. I doubt anyone would make this leap, yet
the author is willing to make many such leaps in an equally, if not more,
complicated set of circumstances.
[...]
So what? When have artists ever really made a difference in politics? John
Lennon did not stop the war in Vietnam, Vaclav Havel did not end communism
in Czechoslovakia with his plays, etc. These artists were representing the
same things that many people were feeling in their cultures. Please tell me
what local hardcore band has ever had any sort of political effect. I don't
think you can even give Fugazi credit for any kind of large scale political
effect.
I think it's best to remember that all politics are personal and claiming
that Zorn & co. don't meet your criteria for "radical-osity" doesn't really
mean anything at all. It's much easier to tear someone else down, than
create something that provokes this much discussion.

By the way, I would love to hear a Radical Muslim Culture series.

Rob


Sorry, but Dave Douglas is NOT Jewish!  Straight from the horse's mouth.
And if he were, I would say that Mr. Zorn certainly has the right to form
any sort of group he likes.  Perhaps it was simply picking players that he
felt were best fitted to the music.  This is a mean-spirited and misinformed
statement, no better than blaming Ellington for forming an all-Afro-American
orchestra.  Would you ask "Why is forming an all-Black group important?" or
does this just apply to Jewish musicians?

Alan E. Kayser









- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 19:22:54 +0000
From: "thomas chatterton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re:Careful With That Racially Stereotyped Adze

> >By the way, I would love to hear a Radical Muslim Culture series.

Some releases on the Barbarity label (Ahlam, Aisha Kandisha's Jarring
Effects, Hamid Baroudi, etc.)might fall under this heading...

np: Mingus Tijuana Moods





_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 21:42:26 +0100 (CET)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?efr=E9n=20del=20valle?= <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fwd:


> Sorry, but Dave Douglas is NOT Jewish!  Straight
> from the horse's mouth.
> And if he were, I would say that Mr. Zorn certainly
> has the right to form
> any sort of group he likes.  Perhaps it was simply
> picking players that he
> felt were best fitted to the music.

That's something I'm sure of, but the fact that Zorn's
always surrounded by Jewish musicians, regardless of
the subject presented by him in a given performance or
album, probably has some meaning. Or is it a mere
coincidence? Could be. And yes, the musicians could
hardly be better.


  This is a
> mean-spirited and misinformed
> statement, no better than blaming Ellington for
> forming an all-Afro-American
> orchestra.


"Mean-spirited" and "misinformed" are ugly,
disrespectful adjectives. I refer to that as SOMEONE'S
POINT OF VIEW instead. Sounds much better, doesn't it?

 Would you ask "Why is forming an
> all-Black group important?" or
> does this just apply to Jewish musicians?
>

Yes, I would ask it. And I would ask it because a Jew
has a reason to form a Jewish ensemble just like a
Gipsy has a reason to form a Gipsy band.
Races that have suffered social rejection in some
moment of history have a (logical, IMHO) tendency to
exile themselves within the margins of their own
community, to put their trust in those they consider
their peers. I think this attitude may not be wise or
"politically correct" (do you have that concept in
English?) but it's totally legitimate.
There's a big difference between what society should
be like and what it actually is, and cliches DO EXIST.
You should hear so many people talking about the Jews
without having ever met one. A real shame.

Best,

EfrΘn del Valle

n.p: Eric Dolphy "Out to Lunch"

_______________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Messenger
Comunicaci≤n instantßnea gratis con tu gente.
http://messenger.yahoo.es

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 17:01:03 -0500
From: "Alan Kayser" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Sorry Remco

I must send an apology to Remco Takken, whom I mistakenly "credited" with
the remarks about Zorn and his choice of Jewish bandmates in Masada.  The
quote was not Mr. Takken's so please refrain from sending him any nasty
emails.

Alan E. Kayser

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 05:55:46 -0800 (PST)
From: jason tors <[e-mail]>
Subject: Set Fire To Flames

Shifting the focus away from nyc, I am getting into some of the
montreal's music. This review is really well written and has piqued my
interest. Anyone want to chime in on reviews of Set Fire to
Flames:Sings Reign Rebuilder?

http://www.pitchforkmedia.com/record-reviews/s/set-fire-to-flames/sings-reign-rebuilder.shtml

I think the reviews on this site are really well written [not to
mention the site is really well designed]. It has more of an indie
focus with the occasional smattering of jazz.

J



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals
http://personals.yahoo.com

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 10:23:00 -0500
From: ahorton <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Set Fire To Flames

>I think the reviews on this site are really well written [not to
>mention the site is really well designed]. It has more of an indie
>focus with the occasional smattering of jazz.

I love and hate Pitchforkmedia.com - i love them because they have the
balls to really rip into records, and everyone there has that cynical
approach to everything; I hate them because it's a straight-up indie rock
mag that occasionally has the pretentiousness to throw in a
"sophisticated" jazz review. Jazz for these kids is a token thing- the only
thing that allows them to get more snobby and act more faux-higbrow than
their precious post-rock and twee-pop.

As far as the set fire to flames record- I just got it. I was salivating when
I
read about it, but the end result is boring as fuck. Everyone involved has
put out some amazing stuff in the past- but if you think Godspeed's stuff is
often overwrought and and boring, then you'll hate this. There are few
drones, and few melodic moments- for the most part, it's clicking,
chiming, and clanging that never quite goes anywhere. Great idea, bad
execution.

andrew


- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V3 #612
*******************************


 To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to
       "[e-mail]"
 with
       "unsubscribe zorn-list-digest"
 in the body of the message.

 For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send
 "help" to the same address.  Do not use quotes in your message.

 A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
 subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "zorn-list-digest"
 in the commands above with "zorn-list".

 Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from ftp.xmission.com, in
 pub/lists/zorn-list/archive.  These are organized by date.

 Problems? Email the list owner at [e-mail]