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2001-11-11
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From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest)
To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Zorn List Digest V3 #611
Reply-To: zorn-list
Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Precedence: bulk
Zorn List Digest Monday, November 12 2001 Volume 03 : Number 611
In this issue:
-
Re: Post punk Links
PD: koncert zorna
A disc with torn and swallow
Re: A disc with torn and swallow
Re: Zorn List Digest V3 #610
re: early McGregor/Blue Notes releases
Re: Zorn and Zionism, Daniel Carter article, Acid Mothers interview
again..
[off subject] and for a laugh...
Fwd: again..
Fwd: PD: koncert zorna
Re: early McGregor/Blue Notes releases
Re: early McGregor/Blue Notes releases
Re: Zorn and Zionism, Daniel Carter article, Acid Mothers interview
Re: Zorn and Zionism, Daniel Carter article, Acid Mothers interview
Re: Zorn and Zionism, Daniel Carter article, Acid Mothers interview
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 22:54:09 -0500
From: Perfect Sound Forever <perfect-sound@furious.com>
Subject: Re: Post punk Links
>Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 20:53:23 -0800
>From: "carlos torres" <nipomoone@hotmail.com>
>
>I've got a question maybe some of you could help me with: what are some
>good online resources (ezines, newsgroups, ect.) for post punk artists, ya
>know, bands such as wire, gang of four, the fall, pere ubu...ect. Any
>good links would be very helpful. Thanks lots
Wire's website = http://www.wiremailorder.com/wmo.htm
The Fall's website = http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Mezzanine/6401/
Pere Ubu's website = http://www.dnai.com/~obo/ubu/
Good newsgroups: alt.music.alternative, alt.music.independent
Mission of Burma are indeed reuniting for two shows- one in Boston, one in
NYC. Already got my ticket for the latter. See http://www.missionofburma.com
Best,
Jason
Perfect Sound Forever
online music magazine
perfect-sound@furious.com
http://www.furious.com/perfect
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 11:12:46 +0100
From: "Marcin Gokieli" <marcingokieli@go2.pl>
Subject: PD: koncert zorna
Hi, I 've been asked to put that request on list
> >Heads up for what should be a fantastic concert at the Barbican in
>London next year :
> >
> >John Zorn - The Gift
> >with Marc Ribot, Jamie Saft, Dave Douglas, Joey Baron & Cyro
Baptista. World
> >Premiere. March 25th. Box Office - 020706388891. www.barbican.org
> >
> >Phil Clarkson
> Could someone confirm this? I've just checked the web site (which,
by the way, is www.barbican.org.uk)
> and there are only two theatrical events scheduled for March 25th.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 12:44:01 +0100
From: "Marcin Gokieli" <marcingokieli@go2.pl>
Subject: A disc with torn and swallow
Hi,
I recently found a cd that featued torn and swallow . I did not buy
it, and could not find it again. Can anyone tell me what was the
album's name, etc.?
Thanks,
Marcin Gokieli
marcin.gokieli@mospan.pl marcingokieli@go2.pl
Generally speaking, if a philosopher offers to 'dissolve' the problem
you are working on, tell him to go climb a tree - Jerry Fodor
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 07:08:44 -0500
From: "Caleb T. Deupree" <cdeupree@erinet.com>
Subject: Re: A disc with torn and swallow
At 12:44 PM 11/12/01 +0100, Marcin Gokieli wrote:
>Hi,
>I recently found a cd that featued torn and swallow . I did not buy
>it, and could not find it again. Can anyone tell me what was the
>album's name, etc.?
There may be others, but a recent Cuneiform release by poet Robert Creeley
has his readings backed by Swallow and Torn. You can read about it at
http://cuneiformrecords.com/bandshtml/creeley.html.
- --
Caleb Deupree
cdeupree@erinet.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 04:54:20 -0800 (PST)
From: Ronald Hiznay <letucepry@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Zorn List Digest V3 #610
Wow,
Lydia Lunch/Teenage Jesus and the Jerks
Little Orphans Running through the Bloody Snow!
Little Orphans Running through the Bloody Snow!
Little Orphans Running through the Blood, through the
Blood, through the Blood....
Reeennuuunuuurennuuunnuuurennuuunnuuuunreeennnuuure!!!!
does anyone else sense that Teenage Jesus and the
Jerks was a huge influence on the Guitar player for
Melt Bananna?
mushmush
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Find a job, post your resume.
http://careers.yahoo.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 08:31:38 EST
From: CuneiWay@aol.com
Subject: re: early McGregor/Blue Notes releases
AFAIK, *both* Gallo CDs are out of print. This info came to me from Maxine
McGregor and also from a guy who works in music distribution in South Africa.
I have never even heard the Blue Notes CD! I have heard the other one.
Too bad these came & went so fast; there'd be a lot more interest these
days...
>> > Gallo (SA) reissued on Cd the live recordings by McGregor at
>> > the Cold castle
>> > Jazz Festival, with Blue Notes, 1962, and the Big band album
>> > from 1963.
Steve F.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 14:46:30 +0000
From: "Arthur Gadney" <a_gadney@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Zorn and Zionism, Daniel Carter article, Acid Mothers interview
>In the latest edition of Perfect Sound Forever
><http://www.furious.com/perfect>, you'll find (among other things):
>
>ZORN AND ZIONISM
>What are the religious/political dimensions of the work of the great
>saxist/composer/record company maven? We do anticipate constructive
>commentary from our friends on this mailing list!
I just read this article and found it extremely interesting. I would love to
hear Zorn himself comment on it, but I guess there is little chance of that.
I┤m reminded of Fred Frith┤s comment in an old interview with him and Zorn:
"You┤re an apolitical dumbshit"! ;-)
Personally, I was never a big fan of the "Radical Jewish Culture"
expression, especially not in these weeks (but I do still love the music).
Can you imagine the reactions if some avant garde label started a "Radical
Muslim Culture"-series?
Cheers,
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 16:23:41 +0100
From: Jeroen de Boer <jeroen@cyberslag.nl>
Subject: again..
Again I give my condolences to all the American members on the list.. I hope
everyone from NY who is a member of the list is ok.
Take care,
Jeroen
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 08:37:40 -0800 (PST)
From: jason tors <jasontors@yahoo.com>
Subject: [off subject] and for a laugh...
something to take your mind off the plane crash.
http://oddtodd.com/
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Find a job, post your resume.
http://careers.yahoo.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 18:10:36 +0100 (CET)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?efr=E9n=20del=20valle?= <efrendv@yahoo.es>
Subject: Fwd: again..
We're at the office and still not too sure of what's
going on in NY again. Hopefully all members here,
their friends and relatives are sound and safe.
All the best,
EfrΘn del Valle
>
> Again I give my condolences to all the American
> members on the list.. I hope
> everyone from NY who is a member of the list is ok.
>
> Take care,
>
> Jeroen
>
>
>
>
>
> -
>
_______________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Messenger
Comunicaci≤n instantßnea gratis con tu gente.
http://messenger.yahoo.es
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 19:24:31 +0100 (CET)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?efr=E9n=20del=20valle?= <efrendv@yahoo.es>
Subject: Fwd: PD: koncert zorna
> > >Phil Clarkson
>
> > Could someone confirm this? I've just checked the
> web site (which,
> by the way, is www.barbican.org.uk)
> > and there are only two theatrical events scheduled
> for March 25th.
It's also featured among Dave Douglas' commitments for
2002 at his website. Shouldn't be a rumor.
Best,
EfrΘn del Valle
_______________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Messenger
Comunicaci≤n instantßnea gratis con tu gente.
http://messenger.yahoo.es
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 19:58:29 +0100
From: "Francesco Martinelli" <fmartinelli@tin.it>
Subject: Re: early McGregor/Blue Notes releases
> Too bad these came & went so fast; there'd be a lot more interest these
> days...
>
Maybe you could tell the guy you know there to forward the message to Gallo!
Francesco
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 15:06:37 EST
From: Fastian@aol.com
Subject: Re: early McGregor/Blue Notes releases
In a message dated 11/12/01 5:32:41 AM Pacific Standard Time,
CuneiWay@aol.com writes:
<< AFAIK, *both* Gallo CDs are out of print. This info came to me from Maxine
McGregor and also from a guy who works in music distribution in South Africa.
I have never even heard the Blue Notes CD! I have heard the other one.
Too bad these came & went so fast; there'd be a lot more interest these
days... >>
Yes, There would be a lot of interest in their reissues there days. I
know Ogun is slowly reissueing some things. Some things on that label have
turned up new on lp. I don't know if they just came upon a lot of old copies
or if they reissued them on lp. I got Procession,Blue Notes For Johnny, and
Moholo's Spirits Rejoice on lp from Cadence a few years back.
One B of B record I'm looking for is "Yes Please" from the early 80s on
the In and Out label and has additional members you wouldn't expect, like
Louis Sclavis, John Tchicai and Andre Goudbeek. I'm also looking for a Spear
record that Dudu Pukwana was on that was from the 70s I believe. I also
found a mid 70s Mcgregor solo "Piano Song Vol. 1" thats interesting but a
little too repetitive for my tastes.
Someone was looking for the Maxine Mcgregor book. I saw a used copy at
Moes in Berkeley a couple of weeks ago. If you don't live in the area,
they'd probably mail it to you. I picked up Wilmers' "As Serious As Your
Life" used while I was there.
John Threadgould
NP Gushwachs
Looking forward to seeing ICP Orchestra tonight
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 14:34:15 -0600
From: Joseph Zitt <jzitt@metatronpress.com>
Subject: Re: Zorn and Zionism, Daniel Carter article, Acid Mothers interview
On Mon, Nov 12, 2001 at 02:46:30PM +0000, Arthur Gadney wrote:
> Personally, I was never a big fan of the "Radical Jewish Culture"
> expression, especially not in these weeks (but I do still love the music).
> Can you imagine the reactions if some avant garde label started a "Radical
> Muslim Culture"-series?
Why not? There's a possibility of lots of good music coming from it.
- --
|> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <|
| jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| Latest CDs: Collaborations/ All Souls http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 21:56:58 +0100
From: "Remco Takken" <r.takken@planet.nl>
Subject: Re: Zorn and Zionism, Daniel Carter article, Acid Mothers interview
> >In the latest edition of Perfect Sound Forever
> ><http://www.furious.com/perfect>, you'll find (among other things):
> >
> >ZORN AND ZIONISM
> >What are the religious/political dimensions of the work of the great
> >saxist/composer/record company maven? We do anticipate constructive
> >commentary from our friends on this mailing list!
>
In above article, there's some wild lawn mowing going on, philosophically.
This <long> article tries to cover so much ground, that annoyingly dumb
opinions occur on the side, for instance the much repeated statement that
bebop jazz was an all-black affair, and then, sharing the free jazz movement
under the same black banner. Remember: the influential Jazz Composers Guild
was wildly mixed, for instance. Sun Ra, Paul Bley, Cecil Taylor and jewish
improvisor Burton Greene worked together there.
Genealogical homogeneity in jazz, either bebop or free? Where should a guy
like John Tchicai be put genealogically, being half Congolese, half Danish?
These incorrect commonplaces do not help strengthen the point that is being
made. And it doesn't help reading this stuff out.
A long quote, to illustrate my point:
Cartoonist Harvey Pekar's conversations with Zorn about Masada, depicted in
a short comics series, reveal that Zorn formed Masada, in part, so that he
could play jazz without being accused of "ripping off" African-American
musicians. The other musicians in the band are Jewish and have all
contributed greatly to the Radical Jewish Series of CD's. Thus, we have Zorn
reinterpreting jazz as Jewish, mirroring the genealogical homogeneity of the
original be-bop groups as well as of the groups formed by the be-boppers'
free jazz younger brothers.
However, the difference remains: Zorn's is a contrived grouping, Jewish
players hand-picked out of an extremely diverse community of players, while
the be-bop players lived in, and performed in, segregated communities. What
does it mean to form an all-Jewish jazz group? Why is forming an all-Jewish
jazz group important?
Remco Takken
np: Herbie Hancock, Future Shock (aw... it's space shuttle/ pacman
nostalgia!! Roller Disco...)
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 15:07:17 -0600
From: "Robert A. Pleshar" <rpleshar@midway.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: Zorn and Zionism, Daniel Carter article, Acid Mothers interview
I found this article to be less that wonderful, covering much of the same
turf as discussions here previously. Here are some questions and comments
that I have after reading it.
1. Isn't it possible to be "radical" by removing oneself entirely from a
mainstream political dichotomy? Why must one be pro or anti-israel to be
radical?=20
Another example: If artist A is anti-abortion and audience members are
overwhelmingly pro-choice, does the audience assume that even if artist A
makes anti-abortion statements that artist A condones the killing of
abortion doctors? Of course not. I doubt anyone would make this leap, yet
the author is willing to make many such leaps in an equally, if not more,
complicated set of circumstances.
Are the AACM (creators of "Great Black Music") necessarily responsible for
commenting on, say, Hutu-Tutsi wars? Why? Why would I care what musicians
think about politics any more than, say, political experts or writers or my
neighbors or the kid on the bus with a mowhawk - hey, he's radical too!
2. Elliott Sharp's quote is fairly meaningless. He seems to have not even
bothered to talk to Zorn about what RJC might mean. I also note that he was
ok enough with whatever his take on it is to let Zorn pay for and produce
his record on that series.
3. Fred Ho is either dim or blinded by looking for anti-asian racism and
sexism. Yes, Torture Garden did contain prints of Japanese women being
tortured (drawn by Japanese artists, I might add). Let's take a look at
some other Zorn album cover art:
Naked City - Dead white guy on cover
Grand Guignol - White cadavers and dissected white guy skull and medical
instruments
Leng T'Che - Tortured Chinese man (I think)
Painkiller - Serial Killer shots of dead white women, writing in blood and
handcuffed hands unearthing a skull
Kristallnacht - The Nazi Ideal / The Nazi Reality photos
Radio - Man Ray photo of naked white woman
The Gift - Japanese kiddie-porn violence cartoons
Spy vs. Spy - Was supposed to be the black spy and the white spy stabbing
each other in the back
There are many more examples. The one thing that comes through all of these
is that they are supposed to be images that shock the viewer. Some are more
effective than others. The Grand Guignol is as gruesome as Torture Garden,
but no one seems to think Zorn has a fetish for white guys with holes in
their skulls. Hmm. Duh, people, he's trying to get a rise out of you.=20
Just because some people think they know what Zorn's "racist erotic
fascinations" are because of some of his album covers means nothing. So we
don't know what Fred Ho's proclivities are, can we assume that they are not
as racist or violent or whatever as Zorn's or anyone elses? Because Zorn is
interested in images of tortured Japanese women (among other things), can
we assume that he is into actually torturing women or even finds the
representation erotic? Way too many things are being assumed here.=20
A counter-example: I am fascinated by photos of surgery, but am completely
squeamish in real life - I can't stand the sight of someone's blood
(strangely, if I cut myself it doesn't really bother me). Do I therefore
find surgery "erotic?" (the correct answer is no, just interesting).
4.>That being said, could it be that the current role of art in culture and
the deeds of artists are
> impoverished and useless? And as incredible and beautiful as Zorn=92s
music is, in the end, it is
> nothing but a series of statements limited within a
self-circumscribed community of artists that
> professes to be, somehow, radical. This is politically sanitized for
academic musicians and polite
> bourgeois only. Please take notice, however, that all this bitching
about Zorn=92s music and the
> Radical Jewish Culture series applies to the sorry condition of
almost all new music; local
> hardcore and underground hip-hop scenes being a couple of notable
exceptions. In this music
> you will find subject matter about power and current events
integrated within other human topics;
> this was how music existed long before the commodified,
self-referencing escapism we consume
> now.=20
So what? When have artists ever really made a difference in politics? John
Lennon did not stop the war in Vietnam, Vaclav Havel did not end communism
in Czechoslovakia with his plays, etc. These artists were representing the
same things that many people were feeling in their cultures. Please tell me
what local hardcore band has ever had any sort of political effect. I don't
think you can even give Fugazi credit for any kind of large scale political
effect.=20
I think it's best to remember that all politics are personal and claiming
that Zorn & co. don't meet your criteria for "radical-osity" doesn't really
mean anything at all. It's much easier to tear someone else down, than
create something that provokes this much discussion.
By the way, I would love to hear a Radical Muslim Culture series.
Rob
At 02:46 PM 11/12/01 +0000, Arthur Gadney wrote:
>>In the latest edition of Perfect Sound Forever
>><http://www.furious.com/perfect>, you'll find (among other things):
>>
>>ZORN AND ZIONISM
>>What are the religious/political dimensions of the work of the great
>>saxist/composer/record company maven? We do anticipate constructive
>>commentary from our friends on this mailing list!
>
>I just read this article and found it extremely interesting. I would love=
to=20
>hear Zorn himself comment on it, but I guess there is little chance of=
that.
>
>I=B4m reminded of Fred Frith=B4s comment in an old interview with him and=
Zorn:=20
>"You=B4re an apolitical dumbshit"! ;-)
>
>Personally, I was never a big fan of the "Radical Jewish Culture"=20
>expression, especially not in these weeks (but I do still love the music).=
=20
>Can you imagine the reactions if some avant garde label started a "Radical=
=20
>Muslim Culture"-series?
>
>Cheers,
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
>
>
>-
>=20
- -
------------------------------
End of Zorn List Digest V3 #611
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