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2001-10-30
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From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest)
To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Zorn List Digest V3 #603
Reply-To: zorn-list
Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Precedence: bulk
Zorn List Digest Wednesday, October 31 2001 Volume 03 : Number 603
In this issue:
-
Re: fela & laswell
Re: fela & laswell
RE: Seattle Chamber Players: November 11 season opener
Re: fela & laswell
Re: fela & laswell
Re: fela & laswell
zappa article
Re: Maybe Monday
Re: fela & laswell
Zorn and Zionism, Daniel Carter article, Acid Mothers interview
Re: not fela & laswell--jandek
Re: fela & laswell
Re: Tokyo and Rome advice
Re: Tokyo and Rome advice
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 00:25:17 +0000
From: "Bill Ashline" <bashline@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: fela & laswell
>From: JonAbbey2@aol.com
>maybe my choice of words, emotion vs. technique, wasn't quite right. a
>large
>percentage of Laswell's work seems half-assed and superficial to my ears,
>and
>his attitude towards consumers, with constant repackaging of the same
>material, not to mention the same groove, is condescending at best. for him
>to talk smack about Fela, one of the greatest artists of the last thirty
>years in my mind, is pretty ridiculous/hilarious.
As a Laswell fan, I recently bought a copy of "Filmtracks 2000." Ordered
before I knew what was going to be on the CD and was in fact looking forward
to what he would do with the genre. I was quite disappointed to receive a
CD of completely recycled sounds from his catalogue. A lot of fans were.
This is where I concur with you. He likes to recycle his riffs. It's a bad
tendency and gives plenty of weight to his detractors.
That said, I bought "Gigi" and "Radioaxiom" at the same time and find them
to be outstanding. I was quite a bit less impressed with Herbie's latest,
but these other two are the best work he's put out in a few years in my
opinion.
It's nice to read some "balanced" discussion here. I'm surprised that no
one has mentioned Laswell's work with Samulnori or Kodo or Foday Musa Suso.
And I think that the complaint about his bass playing is a bit irrelevant.
Musicianship is only part of the equation, particularly when a lot of studio
work is involved. If musicianship is everything, then why haven't people
assailed punk as much, a movement in which the inability to play well was
taken as a virtue. The issue should be the broader holistic matter of music
generally. You can't reduce music to the mere sum of its parts.
I've really been enjoying Fela this past several months and I'd like to get
more of the reissues on Barclay. Is there a list of these releases
somewhere and a good place to buy them? Thanks.
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 16:58:09 -0800
From: Skip Heller <velaires@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: fela & laswell
And I think that the complaint about his bass playing is a bit irrelevant.
> Musicianship is only part of the equation, particularly when a lot of studio
> work is involved. If musicianship is everything, then why haven't people
> assailed punk as much, a movement in which the inability to play well was
> taken as a virtue. The issue should be the broader holistic matter of music
> generally. You can't reduce music to the mere sum of its parts.
Personally, I think the scale for musicianship is a sliding one. And I
think Laswell's bass playing has never been completely efficient,
groove-wise.
As to why people haven't assailed punk as much, it's because the technical
mission was never as statistically dense as that of, for instance,
Mahavishnu. But, if you listen to the Ramones, you hear a group who played
great together, as opposed to the Clash, who always sounded like they were
falling apart at the seams. Whether there were as many quickly-executed
notes in the recipe was irrelevant. How powerful the performance was the
issue.
As for the virtue of playing badly, I never heard anyone say X played "too
well" for punk cred, and God knows the musicianship was uniformly high.
Same for the Minutemen.
The broader holistic matter of music is often under the thumb of its
technical execution. The practical definition of technique is really the
distance from your mind to your hands. You may have the greatest idea in
the world, but it's meaningless if you can't articulate it convincingly.
This is as true in music as it is in speech.
skip h
np: ellery eskelin, jazz trash
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 20:03:24 -0500
From: "Steve Smith" <ssmith36@sprynet.com>
Subject: RE: Seattle Chamber Players: November 11 season opener
Ah - those are the two pieces premiered over two programs (as Part 1 and
Part 2) by members of the Group for Contemporary Music at Bargemusic a few
weeks ago. Zorn was very excited about those pieces, but unfortunately I
couldn't make it to any of the four gigs.
Steve Smith
ssmith36@sprynet.com
NP - game three, fingers crossed...
- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-zorn-list@lists.xmission.com
[mailto:owner-zorn-list@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Herb Levy
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 6:46 PM
To: zorn-list@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Fwd: Seattle Chamber Players: November 11 season opener
When I sent preliminary publicity about Seattle Chamber Players
2001/02 season to the list earlier, there was some unanswerable
questions about what music by Zorn they'd be playing. Here's the
answer: Chimeras.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 20:09:58 EST
From: JonAbbey2@aol.com
Subject: Re: fela & laswell
In a message dated 10/30/01 7:26:34 PM, bashline@hotmail.com writes:
<< I'd like to get more of the reissues on Barclay. Is there a list of thes=
e=20
releases=20
somewhere and a good place to buy them? >>
the 25 are Army Arrangement/Government Chicken Boy, Beasts Of No=20
Nation/O.D.O.O, Coffin For Head Of State/Unknown Soldier,=20
Confusion/Gentleman, Everything Scatter/Noise For Vendor Mouth, Expensive=20
Shit/He Miss Road, Fela With Ginger Baker Live!, Ikoyi Blindness/Kalakuta=20
Show, J.J.D./Unnecessary Begging, Koola Lobitos/The '69 L.A. Sessions, Live=20
In Amsterdam, Monkey Banana/Excuse O, Open and Close/Afrodisiac, Opposite=20
People/Sorrow Tears and Blood, Original Sufferhead/I.T.T., Roforofo Fight/Th=
e=20
Fela Singles, Shakara/London Scene, Shuffering and Shmiling/No Agreement,=20
Stalemate/Fear Not For Man, Teacher Don=E2=80=99t Take Me Nonsense, Undergro=
und=20
System, Upside Down/Music Of Many Colours, V.I.P./Authority Stealing, Yellow=
=20
Fever/Na Poi, and Zombie.=20
I got them all as imports from Dusty Groove, but they've all been since=20
issued on MCA in the US, so they shouldn't be too expensive.
speaking of good prices, though: anyone wanting the new Billie Holiday=20
Columbia ten disc box, but not willing to pay $140, www.ccmusic.com is=20
selling it for $110 including shipping.
Jon
www.erstwhilerecords.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 01:25:51 +0000
From: "Bill Ashline" <bashline@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: fela & laswell
>From: Skip Heller <velaires@earthlink.net>
>As to why people haven't assailed punk as much, it's because the technical
>mission was never as statistically dense as that of, for instance,
>Mahavishnu. But, if you listen to the Ramones, you hear a group who played
>great together, as opposed to the Clash, who always sounded like they were
>falling apart at the seams. Whether there were as many quickly-executed
>notes in the recipe was irrelevant. How powerful the performance was the
>issue.
>
>As for the virtue of playing badly, I never heard anyone say X played "too
>well" for punk cred, and God knows the musicianship was uniformly high.
>Same for the Minutemen.
>
>The broader holistic matter of music is often under the thumb of its
>technical execution. The practical definition of technique is really the
>distance from your mind to your hands. You may have the greatest idea in
>the world, but it's meaningless if you can't articulate it convincingly.
>This is as true in music as it is in speech.
Very interesting points, Skip. But what about when the studio becomes the
instrument as opposed to the conventional instrument? Your point sounds
quite convincing in terms of the live context, and I've never been that
impressed with Laswell as a live musician, with the exception of Last Exit,
but what about the advantages afforded/offered with studio production. Oh
I've heard the complaints here as well, but all of them can pretty much be
reduced to "I don't like ambient spacing in my production." Which means
that we are accursing genres again. It would be sort of like me saying, "I
can't truck much of your taste because you have a penchant for liking
'cookie-monster vocals.'" As to the point about the Clash, well, I disagree
with it. But no surprise there. We don't see eye to eye on Ornette Coleman
either.
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 17:50:31 -0800
From: Skip Heller <velaires@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: fela & laswell
>> From: Skip Heller <velaires@earthlink.net>
>
>> As to why people haven't assailed punk as much, it's because the technical
>> mission was never as statistically dense as that of, for instance,
>> Mahavishnu. But, if you listen to the Ramones, you hear a group who played
>> great together, as opposed to the Clash, who always sounded like they were
>> falling apart at the seams. Whether there were as many quickly-executed
>> notes in the recipe was irrelevant. How powerful the performance was the
>> issue.
>>
>> As for the virtue of playing badly, I never heard anyone say X played "too
>> well" for punk cred, and God knows the musicianship was uniformly high.
>> Same for the Minutemen.
>>
>> The broader holistic matter of music is often under the thumb of its
>> technical execution. The practical definition of technique is really the
>> distance from your mind to your hands. You may have the greatest idea in
>> the world, but it's meaningless if you can't articulate it convincingly.
>> This is as true in music as it is in speech.
>
>
> Very interesting points, Skip. But what about when the studio becomes the
> instrument as opposed to the conventional instrument?
If you're playing a conventional instrument, that's part of the job. The
studio itself is limited as an instrument, largely because -- unless you're
doing completely non-analog non-manual music -- someone still has to play a
conventional instrument and get his point across by those means.
(To me a turntable is a conventional instrument. You have to move it around
with your hands to get it to work just like a drum or a piano keyboard.)
Your point sounds
> quite convincing in terms of the live context, and I've never been that
> impressed with Laswell as a live musician, with the exception of Last Exit,
> but what about the advantages afforded/offered with studio production.
I'm in the Glenn Gould "creative cheating" camp, but it's easy to use GG as
a yardstick because his techinque -- as a pianist -- was above reproach.
Oh
> I've heard the complaints here as well, but all of them can pretty much be
> reduced to "I don't like ambient spacing in my production."
I agree here. If you don't like amibient spacing, why would you ever buy
Laswell?
It would be sort of like me saying, "I
> can't truck much of your taste because you have a penchant for liking
> 'cookie-monster vocals.'"
What are "cookie montser vocals"?
As to the point about the Clash, well, I disagree
> with it.
Y'ever see a live Clash show?
best --
skip h
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 21:04:10 -0500
From: "Caleb T. Deupree" <cdeupree@erinet.com>
Subject: zappa article
I was randomly surfing the web tonight and found this interesting 1988
article by Frank Zappa, responding to selected passages from Allan Bloom's
Closing of the American Mind.
http://www.npq.org/issues/v44/p26.html
- --
Caleb Deupree
cdeupree@erinet.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 21:13:07 EST
From: Fastian@aol.com
Subject: Re: Maybe Monday
>>'Maybe Monday' is Fred Frith Guitar, Miya Masaoka on Koto and
Electronics and Larry Ochs on Sax's. >>
>>A final note, they were introduced as "from San Francisco" to which
Fred replied "Where's San Francisco" I must say they really looked
like a bunch of old San Fran hippies, appropriately playing with a
much younger women. Frith has that kind of Timothy Leary look, and
Ochs has super sparse long white hair. If they could get Terry Riley
on piano/organ it would be perfect!
All in all an evening worth seeing. With 'Konk Pack' on Friday, this
is maybe the best Earshot for modern pure improv.
- -Robert<<
I think Frith said "Where's San Francisco?" because I think the band
members live in the East Bay(Berkeley or Oakland) across the bay from SF.
Maybe Monday played Sunday night at The SF Jazz Festival with Terry Riley on
the bill but playing seperately. I went and saw Konk Pack instead at TUVA in
Berkeley which I think was a bit of a let down. For me Roger Turner was the
highlight of the band,always propelling the band and having quite a
collection of noisemaking toys I haven't seen before. Thomas Lehn had what
appeared to be an old foldup modular analog synth.While Lehn visually was
quite animated, all the sounds seemed the same and very primitive. Although
I've liked many things Tim Hodgkinson has done over the years, I found his
tabletop guitar playing quite boring, just banging and scraping with the only
effect used was piercing feedback. Other members of the audience seemed to
really enjoy it though. Maybe just not my cup of tea.
John Threadgould
np "Music for violin and piano"- Feldman/Courvoisier
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 02:15:00 +0000
From: "Bill Ashline" <bashline@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: fela & laswell
>From: Skip Heller <velaires@earthlink.net>
>It would be sort of like me saying, "I
> > can't truck much of your taste because you have a penchant for liking
> > 'cookie-monster vocals.'"
>
>What are "cookie montser vocals"?
That would be a phrase coined by one of the members of "Slayer" who was
describing one of the tropes of heavy metal. It was discussed here in
detail some weeks back. I must say it was a comment that's allowed me to
listen to metal in a whole new light these days.
> As to the point about the Clash, well, I disagree
> > with it.
>
>Y'ever see a live Clash show?
Can't say I have, so I'll have to take your word for it. Have listened a
lot on records though.
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 20:27:00 -0500
From: Perfect Sound Forever <perfect-sound@furious.com>
Subject: Zorn and Zionism, Daniel Carter article, Acid Mothers interview
Greetings,
In the latest edition of Perfect Sound Forever
<http://www.furious.com/perfect>, you'll find (among other things):
ACID MOTHERS TEMPLE INTERVIEW
The outest in Japanese psych from ambient to all-out aural assault
DANIEL CARTER
'Test' for the saxophonist. Chapter from Phil Freeman's NEW YORK IS NOW!
book about this fabled musician and his exploits.
ZORN AND ZIONISM
What are the religious/political dimensions of the work of the great
saxist/composer/record company maven? We do anticipate constructive
commentary from our friends on this mailing list!
We're always looking for good material so let us know if you have any
writing or ideas for upcoming issues.
See you online,
Jason
Perfect Sound Forever
online music magazine
perfect-sound@furious.com
http://www.furious.com/perfect
- -
------------------------------
Date: 30 Oct 2001 21:56:46 CST
From: CBG <eelpout@usa.net>
Subject: Re: not fela & laswell--jandek
On Mon, 29 Oct 2001 21:43:18 EST, JonAbbey2@aol.com wrote:
> NP: Jandek-Nine-Thirty (Corwood Industries) (am I the only
> Jandek completist on the list? not the LPs, but I have all
> eighteen CDs, including both solo acapella ones. not for
> everyone, but I'm a fan, and a sucker for the $8 pricetags.)
Coincidentally, I'm listening to _Nine-Thirty_ right now. I
just got my shipment of 20 CDs last Friday--I keep the ones I
need for myself and sell the rest to the store where I work.
Oops, the CD just ended. Time for _Put My Dream On This Planet_.
At $4 per disc with the bulk discount, you can scarcely go wrong.
I've decided not to scour the earth for the LPs, since Corwood's
reissue program is moving at such a brisk pace--though I'm sure
the covers look even better in the large format! Some of the
covers are worth the money by themselves.
- -- Charles
Link for the curious: <URL:http://tisue.net/jandek/>
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 23:02:18 -0500
From: Lang Thompson <wlt4@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: fela & laswell
>speaking of good prices, though: anyone wanting the new Billie Holiday
>Columbia ten disc box, but not willing to pay $140, www.ccmusic.com is
>selling it for $110 including shipping.
And if you're willing to wait a few months it will probably show up at the
Columbia House record club at about 40-50% off like the Miles boxes.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 21:30:46 -0800 (PST)
From: Ronald Hiznay <letucepry@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Tokyo and Rome advice
As for Tokyo, I'm here currently, and I can tell you
that you better search really far ahead of time as all
of the clubs are really hard to find, unless you know
Japanese. Even if you have a map, that's no way to be
sure you'll be able to find the club. For experimental
music (on a regular basis) you should check out Star
Pines, or Manda-la 2. But many of the clubs which
offer yer wierd-ass experimental jazz are also strait
jazz places, like Shinjuku Pit Inn. If you tell me
when you will be here I will tell you what I know
about shows that are going on. Also check
www.japanimprov.com they have a wide assortment of
experimental improv with some tour date info, Feel
free to contact me about club locations, I know a few
of them and I check frequently for shows, so I have
some idea what is going on I don't know Japanese, so
if anyone else has any suggestions on Tokyo venues
please feel free to give me some advice.
mushmush
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.
http://personals.yahoo.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 23:28:12 -0800
From: Jim Flannery <newgrange@sfo.com>
Subject: Re: Tokyo and Rome advice
Ronald Hiznay wrote:
>
> sure you'll be able to find the club. For experimental
> music (on a regular basis) you should check out Star
> Pines, or Manda-la 2. But many of the clubs which
Maps & notes on some venues (mostly leaning towards the noise and psych camps)
here: http://www.ongakuweb.com/tokyo_guide/index.html
- --
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jim Flannery newgrange@sfo.com
"For children are innocent and love justice; while most
of us are wicked and naturally prefer mercy"
-- G.K. Chesterton
np: Jackie-O Motherfucker, _The Magick Fire Music_
nr: Tristan Egolf, _Lord of the Barnyard_
- -
------------------------------
End of Zorn List Digest V3 #603
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