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2001-10-06
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From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest)
To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Zorn List Digest V3 #586
Reply-To: zorn-list
Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Precedence: bulk
Zorn List Digest Sunday, October 7 2001 Volume 03 : Number 586
In this issue:
-
Re: Tortoise and the function of the studio
Re: Tortoise and the function of the studio
Re: Tortoise and the function of the studio
Re: Tortoise and the function of the studio
Re: Hip hop Cobra?
Re: Tickets for Bjork
Re: Hip hop Cobra?
Re: two or three things
Re: Hip hop Cobra?
Re: Tortoise and the function of the studio
Odp: Odp: Jazz History
Odp: Atk & Fris
Re:Johnny Dowd
RE: Hip hop Cobra?
RE: Tortoise and the function of the studio
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 18:19:37 -0400
From: Ryan Blum <rblum@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: Tortoise and the function of the studio
>> What's the modern jazz musician's stance on overdubbing, effects, and
>> generally using the studio as an instrument? I get the vibe that in the
>> past, and even recently, the general "jazz" concensus was that the artist
>> should record everything "live in the studio...."
>
> As a working jazz musician/composer, I have come to the conclusion that the
> studio is just another instrument, and it takes as much skill to play the
> studio as it does to play the saxophone, which explains why the Phil
> Spector's of the world are as few and far between as the Wayne Shorter's.
Agreed, and what follows this is that that instrument can be used quite
tastefully in certain hands. But in others, it's fabulous--take the
currently-being-discussed Bill Frisell with Dave Holland and Elvin Jones as
an example. Mr. Frisell's work is tasteful, even masterful.
Re: Tortoise... I dig Tortoise, and some of the other stuff to come out of
that scene (Chicago Underground Trio/Quartet, which is more 'jazz'-y). I've
never seen them live, but would love to. A friend saw them in LA this past
summer and said that their performance was great, and very faithful to the
studio versions, which surprised me. I would expect a more improv-based
concept. Any other reports/critiques of live Tortoise?
Ryan
NP: Live Phish 03 9.14.00 "Crosseyed and Painless"
PS: yes, that is Phish, not a typeo. Don't mean to get defensive, but...
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 15:28:08 -0700
From: Skip Heller <velaires@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Tortoise and the function of the studio
> Agreed, and what follows this is that that instrument can be used quite
> tastefully in certain hands. But in others, it's fabulous--take the
> currently-being-discussed Bill Frisell with Dave Holland and Elvin Jones as
> an example. Mr. Frisell's work is tasteful, even masterful.
True. And that's why his records have performed a different service than
his live shows, one no less wonderful.
skip h
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 16:19:47 -0700
From: Dave Trenkel <improv@peak.org>
Subject: Re: Tortoise and the function of the studio
>
>Re: Tortoise... I dig Tortoise, and some of the other stuff to come out of
>that scene (Chicago Underground Trio/Quartet, which is more 'jazz'-y). I've
>never seen them live, but would love to. A friend saw them in LA this past
>summer and said that their performance was great, and very faithful to the
>studio versions, which surprised me. I would expect a more improv-based
>concept. Any other reports/critiques of live Tortoise?
>
I like Tortoise quite a bit as well, especially the TNT disc, which
has some very nice compositions. Actually, I've been playing "Jetty"
from that record in a jazz group. I think that when they added Jeff
Parker on guitar, they had a distinctive instrumental voice in the
band for the first time, I love his work with them, the various
Chicago Underground groups, and Isotope 217. I saw Tortoise live this
summer also, and it was kind of disappointing. On one hand, it was
pretty impressive that they could do the tunes live with just 5
players as faithfully as they did, everyone switched instruments many
times throughout the show, but I really felt it was all very
rehearsed, and pretty safe. Very little improvisation. However, I did
see Isotope 217 a few years ago, with at least 3 Tortoise members,
and Rob Mazurek on trumpet, and that show absolutely burned. Terrific
post-miles groove-based fusion, and some great playing from all
involved.
- --
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dave Trenkel New and Improv Music
http://www.newandimprov.com improv@peak.org
Now Available: Minus: Dark Lit
"This is music all-consuming in its beauty and power"
-Jake TenPas OSU Daily Barometer
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 20:18:54 -0400
From: "Matthew Mitchell" <matmi@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Tortoise and the function of the studio
- ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Since we're on the subject of studio work and Frisell, let me chime in and
say that Before We Were Born is still the one I cherish of his above all.
A pretty darn studio-oriented album, there.
And so...
- -matt
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Skip
Heller
To: Zorn List ;Ryan
Blum
Sent: 10/7/01 6:28:08 PM
Subject: Re: Tortoise and the function of
the studio
Agreed, and what follows this is that that instrument can be used
quite
tastefully in certain hands. But in others, it's fabulous--take
the
currently-being-discussed Bill Frisell with Dave Holland and Elvin
Jones as
an example. Mr. Frisell's work is tasteful, even masterful.
True. And that's why his records have performed a different
service than
his live shows, one no less wonderful.
skip h
- -
- --- Matthew Mitchell
- --- matmi@earthlink.net
- --- EarthLink: It's your Internet.
- ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8
Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=windows-1251">
<META content="MSHTML 5.50.4134.600" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV>Since we're on the subject of studio work and Frisell, let me chime in and say that Before We Were Born is still the one I cherish of his above all. A pretty darn studio-oriented album, there. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>And so...</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>-matt</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=velaires@earthlink.net href="mailto:velaires@earthlink.net">Skip Heller</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To: </B><A title=velaires@earthlink.net href="mailto:velaires@earthlink.net">Zorn List</A>;<A title=velaires@earthlink.net href="mailto:velaires@earthlink.net">Ryan Blum</A></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> 10/7/01 6:28:08 PM </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Tortoise and the function of the studio</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><FONT size=2>
<P>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>> Agreed, and what follows this is that that instrument can be used quite</DIV>
<DIV>> tastefully in certain hands. But in others, it's fabulous--take the</DIV>
<DIV>> currently-being-discussed Bill Frisell with Dave Holland and Elvin Jones as</DIV>
<DIV>> an example. Mr. Frisell's work is tasteful, even masterful.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>True. And that's why his records have performed a different service than</DIV>
<DIV>his live shows, one no less wonderful.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>skip h</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>-</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<P></P></FONT>
<P></P></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>--- Matthew Mitchell</DIV>
<DIV>--- <A href="mailto:matmi@earthlink.net">matmi@earthlink.net</A></DIV>
<DIV>--- EarthLink: It's your Internet.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></BODY></HTML>
- ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8--
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 19:48:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: Ronald Hiznay <letucepry@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Hip hop Cobra?
Damn Where's Tupac when you need him....That would be
really great if someone could actually convince a
bunch of High profile rap artists of playing one of
those eggheaded game pieces, Not only would I want a
recording, I'd want a video!!!! Unfortunately the only
people probably willing to do it would be the true
screwballs and dorks of hip-hop-dom (if you were
lucky, maybe you could convince Kool Keith and the
Invisible Scratch Pickles), and it would be watered
down to a bunch of eggheads playing a game piece (the
problem with game pieces to begin with)
mushmush
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
NEW from Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month.
http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 19:53:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: Ronald Hiznay <letucepry@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Tickets for Bjork
Tickets for Bjork
>Hey everybody,
>I was wondering if anybody knew where I could get
>tickets (besides
>ebay) to one
>of the Bjork US shows in either Chicago, Los Angeles,
>or Oakland.
Perhaps you should try the uhmmmm...BuhJyork list?
mushmush
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
NEW from Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month.
http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 23:40:24 -0700
From: Skip Heller <velaires@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Hip hop Cobra?
it would be watered
> down to a bunch of eggheads playing a game piece (the
> problem with game pieces to begin with)
>
>
>
> mushmush
>
Too true.
skip h
np: jerry lee lewis, best of the mercury years
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 04:01:45 -0400
From: "josephneff" <jneff@visuallink.com>
Subject: Re: two or three things
Hello,
...the thing I like most about Wilco is that (so the Dalkey Archive
site says) their new CD's liner notes is the first chapter of Stanley
Elkin's novel "The Franchiser". A writer truly deserving of a wider
audience. What I've heard from Wilco was okay enough, but I wouldn't say
that they have reinvented any genres.
...regarding Tortoise: bought a used copy of "TNT" and was not that
impressed. However, Jeff Parker participates in a massive CD titled
"Denouement" by the Scott Field's Ensemble on Geode Records from 1999. Added
incentive to search out: Hamid Drake.
...on another note, I just bought Don Cherry's "Mu Parts 1 & 2" CD
reish, and the music on the disc is great, but the only problem is that it's
the Art Ensemble of Chicago. Does anyone know if the label Fuel 2000 has a
web address so they can be contacted re this pressing defect?
I remain....
Joseph
NP: Minutemen "Double Nickels on the Dime" 2LP
NR: Herman Melville "Pierre, or the Ambiguities"
John Barth "The Friday Book"
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 02:16:53 -0400
From: "andrew" <ahorton@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Hip hop Cobra?
> Damn Where's Tupac when you need him....That would be
> really great if someone could actually convince a
> bunch of High profile rap artists of playing one of
> those eggheaded game pieces, Not only would I want a
> recording, I'd want a video!!!! Unfortunately the only
> people probably willing to do it would be the true
> screwballs and dorks of hip-hop-dom (if you were
> lucky, maybe you could convince Kool Keith and the
> Invisible Scratch Pickles), and it would be watered
> down to a bunch of eggheads playing a game piece (the
> problem with game pieces to begin with)
A hip hop game piece actually sounds amazing; hip hop is the one genre
that's really been captivating me recently. I've played guitar, horn, bass,
drums since i was eleven, but when i was seventeen, i started getting into
samplers and sequencers, and in the past 4 years (i'm now 21), that's really
been my main creative outlet; 2 turntables, my sequencer, and sampler. I
also have an analogue synth (sh-101) which can be fun for adding some
sweeps, worms, and for generating sounds to be sampled.
Now; i understand that hip hop is probably not respected very much in the
faux-highbrow world of modern jazz; most of it dosen't deserve to be. The
whole wave of "trip hop/acid jazz" guys like DJ Cam, DJ Krush, Kid Loco, Le
Gooster, Shadow Records, Ninja Tune, Mo' Wax, etc. probably haven't helped
things; most of those guys think that if you sample some jazz riffs, you're
making "abstrakt jazz" or something wack like that. However, a good handful
of hip hop producers (esp. Prefuse 73) and turntablists (kid koala, etc.)
are really just doing some amazing stuff. Has anyone heard Kid Koala's
"drunk trumpet" live in Chicago? It's on the Ninja tune "xen cuts" 3CD
retrospective, and it's amazing- listening to him play the trumpet off of
the record by cutting it. Nice!
I recently opened up an abstract hip hop/downtempo/bossa DJ set with "Snake
Catcher" off of Zorn's recent "The Gift"- it really set the vibe for the
set, and sat perfectly with the opening of Prefuse 73's "estrocaro" that I
brought in over it.
horton
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 02:19:57 -0400
From: "andrew" <ahorton@vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Tortoise and the function of the studio
Yeah, Isotope and trans am, and the chicago underground
quartet/orchestra/duo/trio/etc. are great. I love the recent self-titled
Quartet album.
Jeff Parker really brought the balls to Tortoise; that guy's playing is just
so dynamic! I really like it.
As far as the studio....being an amateur engineer/producer/whatever, i'm all
about it. I love to see artists that embrace technology, without using it as
a "fix", if that makes sense.
Then again, I've always had a fetish for Phil Spector, Joe Meek, and all
their cronies and descendents.
andrew
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 12:24:23 +0200
From: "Marcin Gokieli" <marcingokieli@go2.pl>
Subject: Odp: Odp: Jazz History
From: Skip Heller <velaires@earthlink.net>
> I liked the tunes on that one (espec "Ballroom" or whatever it's
called),
> but it lacked something for me.
The compositions were a strong point, but there's something more: IMHO
Frisell has achieved all he could in the 'intense mutual listening'
idiom at the live disc with driscoll and JB (BTW i have a videotape of
their concert from warsaw, ansd it's much better!). It waould be hard
to go on that way - and on 'Gone' he has achieved a more relaxed, not
that intense way of working with rhythm section. But the good thing
got lost on 'good dog'.
Marcin
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 12:35:15 +0200
From: "Marcin Gokieli" <marcingokieli@go2.pl>
Subject: Odp: Atk & Fris
> he'd do that (much as I loved Joey and Kermit), because he's such a
> versatile player.
wait a minute... What is drisoll doingh those days?
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 09:58:23 EDT
From: Poisonhead@aol.com
Subject: Re:Johnny Dowd
I wouldn't consider Johnny a country singer, more like an escaped
lunatic/50's greaser/outsider artist. He has a moving company in Ithaca,
quite normal when you talk to him. I think his drummer is fantastic (Brian
Wilson). Now that Colorblind James is no longer with us it's nice to have
another local band to make it worth getting out every now and again! Wilco on
the other hand seems to have real slick recordings,16 Horsepower and Slim
Cessna's Auto Club Rock.
Andrew
Heavy Rotation...
Paul Smoker-Come Rain or Come Shine
Masfel-Viperagarzon
Valentina Ponomareva/Ken Hyder/Tim Hodgkinson-The Goose
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 13:51:21 +0200
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Efr=E9n_del_Valle?= <efrendv@yahoo.es>
Subject: RE: Hip hop Cobra?
Damn Where's Tupac when you need him....That would be
> really great if someone could actually convince a
> bunch of High profile rap artists of playing one of
> those eggheaded game pieces, Not only would I want a
> recording, I'd want a video!!!! Unfortunately the only
> people probably willing to do it would be the true
> screwballs and dorks of hip-hop-dom (if you were
> lucky, maybe you could convince Kool Keith and the
> Invisible Scratch Pickles), and it would be watered
> down to a bunch of eggheads playing a game piece (the
> problem with game pieces to begin with)
It was not actually a game piece but read this excerpt from an old
interview:
"FACTORY: Besides the music from "Filmworks 1986-1990", have you composed
any film music recently?
JZ: I recently finished two soundtracks: a sort of industrial music for a
S/M 20' video and, for a young Taiwanese filmmaker, the music of a
documentary about a Hollywood hotel inhabited by old people that used to
work and be happy and now are out of work and poor after the decline of film
industry. I made this score with only two saxos and Marc Ribot's
collaboration on guitar.
Two years ago, I composed the score for Walter Hill's "Trespass", in which
two rap-stars like Ice Cube and Ice-T collaborated, but it wasn't accepted.
After a previous screening, the film didn't get a good response and they
thought it was because of my music so it was withdrawn..."
My translation is so bad, but what Zorn meant is that the two metioned
rap-stars contributed to the music of the film, not as actors (as far as i
know). I guess that they included some tracks, though. I can't imagine Zorn
side by side with those guys. However, it's also hard to imagine Archie
Sheep and Whitney Houston doing "Memories" and they did.
Best,
EfrΘn
n.p: Sam Prekop "Sam Prekop" (Thrill Jockey)
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 15:58:33 +0200
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Efr=E9n_del_Valle?= <efrendv@yahoo.es>
Subject: RE: Tortoise and the function of the studio
Hi,
I do like Tortoise but I don't actually think that "Standards" is their best
album at all. IMHO, the album that balanced perfectly all their strengths
and weaknesses was TNT. I haven't enjoyed the new direction they've taken at
all. I find their new tendency towards electronics tasteless.
I saw them several years ago at a Spanish festival and everything sounded
really good, exactly what it was like on the album, which isn't necessarily
something good to say about a band's live performance. However, I won't
consider their lack of improvisation a negative aspect. I never considered
Tortoise a band that's close to jazz in any senses. Everything is so
meditated in advance, so well designed that its hard for me to identify
their sound as one so indebted with jazz. They owe much more to Morricone
(for instance) I think.
With regards to the studio matter, besides many highly-appraised studio
albums like Beach Boys' "Pet Sounds", Zappa's "Lumpy Gravy" or Zorn's
"Spillane", which are evidences of how good results a command on the studio
tools can provide, this presents an obvious danger. That is, willing to
bring those good results into a stage successfully. Tortoise manage to do
that well. But take other mainly studio bands like Stereolab, with so many
quirky arrangements on record. I find their latest CD, "Sound Dust" really
good but saw them two Sundays ago and it was one of the worst performances
I've ever seen. Maybe it was something isolated, but I think it might well
derive from their complexity while in the studio: impossible choruses, keys,
winds, marimbas. They've only got two hands each!!.
Best,
EfrΘn
n.p: William Parker "In order to survive" (Black Saint)
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
- -
------------------------------
End of Zorn List Digest V3 #586
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