ftp.xmission.com/2014.06.ftp.xmission.com.tar/ftp.xmission.com/pub/lists/zorn-list/archive/v03.n550

Internet Message Format | 2001-08-25 | 21KB

From: [e-mail] (Zorn List Digest)
To: [e-mail]
Subject: Zorn List Digest V3 #550
Reply-To: zorn-list
Sender: [e-mail]
Errors-To: [e-mail]
Precedence: bulk


Zorn List Digest        Sunday, August 26 2001        Volume 03 : Number 550



In this issue:
-
       Re: Aging Artists
       Black Sabbath (NO ZORN CONTENT!!!)
       RE: LORDS OF CHAOS, BLOOD AXIS, etc
       Re: Lords of CHOAS!
       Re: Black Sabbath (NO ZORN CONTENT!!!)
       SABBATH
       Another book about metal
       Re: SABBATH
       RE: Lords of CHOAS!
       Re: Zorn-pol
       Re: Aging Artists
       Re: Lords of Chaos
       FW: LORDS OF CHAOS, BLOOD AXIS, etc

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 19:53:51 +0000
From: "Arthur Gadney" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Aging Artists

>When I hear people run
>down someone like Sonny Rollins with a remark like "He should have quit
>after SAXOPHONE COLOSSUS" or whatever, I generally feel  like kicking their
>teeth down their throat.

Hm, perhaps, but I still think this world would have been a far better place
had James Brown stopped making music in 1974.


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 23:17:03 +0200
From: patRice <[e-mail]>
Subject: Black Sabbath (NO ZORN CONTENT!!!)

Hi boys & girls...

While the first CD by Body Count was being played last night at a party
I was invited to, somebody mentioned that some of the guitar-parts
reminded him of Black Sabbath.

And - holy hell, it wasn't until then that I realized I still don't have
any recorded material by them...

So: what would you recommend as a good starting point?

Thanks for the help!

patRice

np: Fela Kuti, Original Sufferhead
nr: sfa


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 17:12:34 -0400
From: "Steve Smith" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: LORDS OF CHAOS, BLOOD AXIS, etc

Says Benito Vergara in response to my previous post:

>> It's worth noting at this point, perhaps, that according to
>> Amazon.com, the
>> notorious Moynihan (who we've discussed here once before, if
>> memory serves)
>> did not write 'Lords of Chaos,' only its preface.  The author of the book
>> itself appears to have been Didrik Soderlind.  Or is Amazon mistaken?
>
>No, Amazon.com's mistaken.

Right you are, Ben.  In my wandering, I found the site to which Jeroen
referred, which had a lot more information on the book, including copious
quotes... even one from Deena Weinstein, who called it "definitive."

Thanks for clearing this up.

Steve Smith
[e-mail]
NP - Handel, Violin Sonata in F, Andrew Manze/Richard Egarr (Harmonia Mundi)
NR - Pramoedya Ananta Toer, 'Child of All Nations'

P.S. I went looking for Joseph McElroy's 'Lookout Cartridge,' only to find
it was out of print. Time to hit the used bookstores...


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 14:23:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: Ryan Novak <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Lords of CHOAS!

>Ironically, I was planning to ask THE VERY SAME
>QUESTION on the Z-list
>TODAY.  What are the odds?

Steve, it must just be the metal stuff you'd been
mentioning combined with the literary thread that's
been going on here (which I normally don't like, but
thought I'd use to my advantage).  Or I can read
minds!  But anyway, knowing the real title does make
finding it a lot easier doesn't it?  Thanks for the
help everybody.

And another thing that got me on this track was
hearing some of Ulver's "Themes From William Blake's
the Marriage of Heaven and Hell".  The music didn't
immediately grab me, due to a kind of hack
industrial/techno bent that took getting used to, but
it was really cool to hear literate lyrics in that
context.  And I wondered if there weren't other groups
exploring that area, whether using famous poets' words
or not.  I've heard people ask for "smart metal"
before on this list though and I don't remember much
coming up, so maybe it really is a contradiction, but
I thought I'd see.

Thanks,


Ryan N.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger
http://phonecard.yahoo.com/

- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 21:46:10 +0000
From: "thomas chatterton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Black Sabbath (NO ZORN CONTENT!!!)

>From: patRice <[e-mail]>

>
>And - holy hell, it wasn't until then that I realized I still don't have
>any recorded material by them...
>
>So: what would you recommend as a good starting point?
>
That's easy! The first 4 albums, in descending order:

Black Sabbath, Paranoid, Master Of Reality, Volume 4

(plus I know lots of the fans also recommend Heaven and Hell...)

np: Sussan Deyhim Turbulent

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 22:59:33 +0100 (BST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Michael=20Gillham?= <[e-mail]>
Subject: SABBATH

Are you SERIOUS?!

'Black Sabbath'
'Paranoid'
'Master Of Reality'
'Volume 4'
'Sabotage'
'Sabbath Bloody Sabbath'

In that order.



____________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk
or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 00:11:13 +0200
From: Jeroen de Boer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Another book about metal

Another book about heavymetal, which I found in a used-book store, is Robert
Walser's 'Running With The Devil - Power, Gender, and Madness in Heavy Metal
Music'.

As the title implies it's more focused on regular metal (Van Halen, Iron
Maiden etc.). Walser received the 1993 Irving Lowens Award for the best book
on American Music for this study.


Jeroen

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeroen de Boer
content director Cyberslag Content Providing
Damsterdiep 15  9711SG Groningen    The Netherlands

t   [phone]
m   [phone]
f   [phone]
[e-mail]

www.cyberslag.nl
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 18:33:36 -0400
From: "David Beardsley" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: SABBATH

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Gillham <[e-mail]>

> Are you SERIOUS?!
>
> 'Black Sabbath'
> 'Paranoid'
> 'Master Of Reality'
> 'Volume 4'
> 'Sabotage'
> 'Sabbath Bloody Sabbath'

The classics.

Never Say Die was their last studio album with Ozzy, it's great,
very clean production. Stay away from Technical Ecstasy, a
real lackluster effort.

The album with Purples Ian Gillan, Never Say Die is great too. He was Jesus
in the original
London cast production of Jesus Christ Superstar (I think) and after his
1st gig with Deep Purple, he ended up in Black Sabbath. Hee-he....


* David Beardsley
* http://biink.com
* http://mp3.com/davidbeardsley




- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 15:38:43 -0700
From: "Benito Vergara" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Lords of CHOAS!

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail]
> [mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Ryan Novak
> Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2001 2:23 PM

> I've heard people ask for "smart metal"
> before on this list though and I don't remember much
> coming up, so maybe it really is a contradiction, but
> I thought I'd see.

Everything I know about "smart metal" I got from Steve Smith, but don't
blame him for my recommendations.

If you're talking about so-called technical metal with intricate guitar
passages and time signatures, then you should check out Meshuggah, Gorguts,
Cryptopsy and, on the somewhat lighter side of hardcore, the Dillinger
Escape Plan, Drowning Man, etc.

If you're talking about Sabbath-like sludgecore with detuned guitars
crunching down, then I would suggest Corrupted, Weakling, Sleep, Burning
Witch and, on the somewhat lighter side of stoner rock, Kyuss and High On
Fire.

But if you're talking about lyrics -- well, I'm not so sure there. The Ulver
double CD is great -- you can't go wrong with Blake -- but the music sounds
like bland industrial stuff to me. Otherwise be prepared to slog through
lyrics taken from medical textbooks (Carcass, Exhumed) or about traipsing
through wintry woods with wolves howling (most of Ulver, Darkthrone,
Emperor).

That said, I do like the absurdly overripe goth fantasies of Cradle Of
Filth, as close to black metal's Spinal Tap if there ever was one.

Later,
Ben

http://members.tripod.com/~tamad2/
ICQ: 12832406


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 17:05:04 -0500
From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn-pol

On Sun, Aug 26, 2001 at 07:46:13PM -0000, Millie Gorgon wrote:
=20
> i fully agree with the Cage quote; but it still bothers me that we have=
 such a limitation to metaphor.  music and speech are already symbolic, w=
hy must we always write in meta-symbols/metaphor?  NWA said "Fuck Tha Pol=
ice."  Hardcore is more of a physical (non-symbolic) assault on the liste=
ner than anything else.  why not, at least occasionally, say what you mea=
n.  like in Chadbourne's protest tunes.  it's limiting not to!

Saying what you mean can be good. But far from necessary. You see, what
we have here is not a limitation to metaphor but the rejection of a
limitation to literal concepts.

As is shown by, for one thing, the quote from Zorn that you yourself
raise at the end of the message, he has no aversion to saying what he
means (even if, as shown below, you have to understand the context of
what was said).

> >But, on the other hand, why would one possibly want to limit art to th=
e discussion of these issues? . . . While some have sung of current event=
s and power, many sang of love, of work, of family, of religion, of morta=
lity, and of every aspect of human life, as well as the huge amounts of i=
nstrumental musics without topics. To say that only the corner of music c=
oncerning "power and current events" existed is to evince a lack of infor=
mation about the real range of these musics.
>=20
> precisely, folk musics are about all of those things -and what's the mi=
ssing category from the RJC Series? - which certainly is about all of tho=
se things you listed, EXCEPT current events/politics (and maybe work...)

There are many possible topics that the series has not yet touched on.
Politics is one, though it is far from alone.

And, again, it may be that no one has presented an appropriate project
to the series. Seeing that you find it important that the series=20
include such a work, what are you doing to either create and present=20
such a work to the series, or to locate one that might be appropriate.

Complaining in a mailing list is trivially simple. How about doing
something positive, in creating work to fill the gap that you perceive?

> (right, the Palestinians have dirty hands cuz they no longer have acces=
s to water in which to clean them..)  didn't most of those 800,000 Jews e=
migrate (by choice) to Israel because their homeland was founded?

Hmm... you might ask the people whom I know who were involved in
clandestinely airlifting Jews from Islamic countries to save their
lives. And you might also check a wider range of sources of supposed
history than those whose opinions you have received and repeated.

> >Finally: I believe this debate really got hung up by the word "Radical=
". Had Zorn called his series "the Jewish Cultural Renaissance" (a term c=
oined by Martin Buber to describe roughly what we=B4re talking about), I =
don=B4t believe we=B4d have any problems, no?
>=20
> generally, we wouldn't.  it's not so much a hangup as that is what the =
debate was (WAS!) about.  i have differing expectations when considering =
a Radical group and Cultural Renaissance group.  the latter sounds flaky =
to me (no offense to Buber, there wasn't any token/commodified multicultu=
ralism around when he coined the phrase) - the quality and the content of=
 the RJC would have exceeded my expectations if that were its title.  als=
o, i'm picking on Zorn only because he has these pretensions about radica=
lism while he's at a high point in his bourgeois respectability.  Spy v S=
py made people flee from the venue. =20

Ah, so you agree that the issue is that you have a problem with the
word "Radical" that most of the other users of the language
demonstrably do not share.

What about "Cultural Renaissance" sounds "flaky" to you?

> useless to whom? - useless to the regular person!  ever read Zappa's le=
cture to the American Society of University Composers about the current r=
ole of the composer in the US? (it's in the Real Frank Zappa Book)-  "why=
 do people continue to compose music, and even pretend to teach each othe=
rs how to do it, when they already know the answer?  Nobody gives a fuck.=
"

In what sense might a series of avant-garde music on a tiny label be
"useful" to the hypothesized "regular person"?

Look at, for example, the example that you raise above of Chadbourne's
protest songs. Now, I consider myself fairly well informed as far as vari=
ous musics, especially in the avant-garde (or whatever) areas in which Ch=
adbourne works. Yet, even among the performances that I have attended, th=
e several thousand CDs that I own, and the many others that I have heard =
on the Net, the radio, and elsewhere, I have never heard any of these.

So to what degree do you suppose that they are "useful" to this
"regular" person, who, we might guess, doesn't have even that much
access to this music than we on this list might?

And, frankly, I would no more take Frank Zappa as my political mentor
than I would take cooking tips from Laurie Anderson.

> i revert to my former (slightly amended) statement:
> could it be that the current role of art and behavior of artists is imp=
overished and useless?  and as incredible and beautiful as Zorn's music i=
s, that, in the end, it is nothing but a a series of statements limited w=
ithin a self-circumscribed community of artists that professes to be, som=
ehow, radical. this is politically sanitized for musicians and polite bou=
rgeois only.  contrast with rural american folk and blues - there was alw=
ays subject matter about power and current events integrated within other=
 human topics; this was how music existed long before the commodified, se=
lf-referencing escapism we consume now.

But I repeat my previous idea (slightly amended):

Would absolutely any set of 50 works of the cited music deal with all
the cited issues? If not, then it is unreasonable to expect this
series of only 50 works so far to address all of them.

> then again, someone who tells Vaclav Havel, Madeline Albright and Lou R=
eed to SHUT THE FUCK UP! can't be all that non-political....

Ah, another context error: Zorn's telling them that was not in the
least bit a political action. They were talking loudly and disturbing
the music. To Zorn, the music is the most important thing. If they
were three random people who were talking about cooking at the same
time and at the same volume, his response would have been the
same. (Compare and contrast with Lennon's "All you people in the
balconies can just rattle your jewelry.")

- --=20
|> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <|
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| Latest CD: Jerusaklyn                  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 16:01:44 -0700
From: Skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Aging Artists

>
>> When I hear people run
>> down someone like Sonny Rollins with a remark like "He should have quit
>> after SAXOPHONE COLOSSUS" or whatever, I generally feel  like kicking their
>> teeth down their throat.
>
> Hm, perhaps, but I still think this world would have been a far better place
> had James Brown stopped making music in 1974.
>
>
I first saw him live in 1982, and he was utterly amazing.  And there are a
few really good JB recordings post 1974.

sh


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 23:42:36
From: "William York" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Lords of Chaos

<It's worth noting at this point, perhaps, that according to Amazon.com, the
notorious Moynihan (who we've discussed here once before, if memory serves)
did not write 'Lords of Chaos,' only its preface.  The author of the book
itself appears to have been Didrik Soderlind.  Or is Amazon mistaken?>

I think they are. I have this book, and these two are credited as having
co-written it

<Anyway, I looked at the reader reviews - always the most important thing to
use when weighing an Amazon purchase, I think - and decided to order Deena
Weinstein's 'Heavy Metal: The Music and Its Culture' instead.>

Well, they are two different books w/ little overlap between them in terms
of subject matter. Both are very much worth reading. Weinstein's book is
more on the dry/academic side, though that doesn't make it boring. Lords of
Chaos is pretty disturbing, but it was a much quicker read - I had trouble
putting it down once I started. It is NOT a book to read if you tend to have
knee-jerk reactions or tend to make quick generalizations.

But, broadly speaking, it (LoC) is a prime example of why (I think)
listening to an artist's music should not be taken to mean that you endorse
his or her actions or beliefs -- i.e., lots of people who say or do really
stupid stuff still make very worthwhile music. Although, some of the artists
- -- namely Ulver (also my fave of the bands discussed in there) -- do have
some intelligent things to say.

WY



_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 17:04:15 -0700
From: "Benito Vergara" <[e-mail]>
Subject: FW: LORDS OF CHAOS, BLOOD AXIS, etc

This was missent to me -- I think it was meant for the whole list since it
begins with "Hello list members:"

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Falcata Galia Recordings [mailto:[e-mail]]
> Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2001 12:51 PM
> To: Benito Vergara
> Subject: RE: LORDS OF CHAOS, BLOOD AXIS, etc
>
>
> Hello list members;
>
> I can actually speak about my experiences with Moynihan because I've
> corresponded with him and met him some time last year.  He is hardly what
> one would call a racist or extremist.  He's actually quite genteel and
> well-mannered, with a high interest in Western European culture.
> If being a
> racist means having the interest to delve into one's culture
> strongly, well
> I guess I can be accused of this as well (although a lot of mates would
> shoot down that theory if you asked them).  His coyness seems
> really more to
> irritate journalists, most of whom are looking for the despicable
> boogey-man.  By the by, the SPLC and Morris Dees aren't exactly a credible
> source anymore, what with Dees having some problems for being
> allegedly very
> condescending to the point of racism, a charge levied at him from
> some black
> members of his organization.  Nothing is ever purely black and
> white, is it?
>
> Best,
>
> Rudy



- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V3 #550
*******************************


 To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to
       "[e-mail]"
 with
       "unsubscribe zorn-list-digest"
 in the body of the message.

 For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send
 "help" to the same address.  Do not use quotes in your message.

 A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
 subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "zorn-list-digest"
 in the commands above with "zorn-list".

 Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from ftp.xmission.com, in
 pub/lists/zorn-list/archive.  These are organized by date.

 Problems? Email the list owner at [e-mail]