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Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 11:54:06 -0700
From: "Benito Vergara" <bvergara@sfsu.edu>
Subject: RE: LORDS OF CHAOS, BLOOD AXIS, etc
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-zorn-list@lists.xmission.com
> [mailto:owner-zorn-list@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Jeroen de Boer
> Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2001 11:26 AM
> That's strange, I thought he was a respected journalist trying to clarify
> the (European) blackmetalscene. I looked into the book a couple
> of times in
> a local bookstore and his writings seemed quite objective. There
> are also a
> number of comments on the back of the book by other journalists and
> sociologists. Are you sure he's some right-extremist blackmetalfan?
Probably both -- like a few folks in the goth/industrial/metal scene (Boyd
Rice, Douglas Pearce, etc.), Moynihan has been coy about labels like
"fascist" and "Nazi," though it's clear that his musical/philosophical
interests lie in those areas. If it walks like a duck and talks like a
duck...? Can't be entirely sure, though he sure seems that way. (See
http://welcome.to/bloodaxis -- also type in "Southern Poverty Law Center"
and "Michael Moynihan" in Google and see what you come up with.)
To his credit, however, "Lords of Chaos" is an extremely well-researched
book -- and a surprisingly objective one as well, given Moynihan's political
affiliations. We get a lovingly detailed portrait of the black metal scene,
as well as the events that led up to the various horrific murders and
church-burnings that put black metal in the spotlight. There's a tendency in
books like these, i.e., about criminals and such, to glorify them. One can
read, between the lines, Moynihan's begrudging admiration for that stupid
Count Grishnackh's willingness to act out his homicidal fantasies -- but it
is clear as well that he deplores such measures. My only major quibble is
that there just isn't enough on the *music* -- not much real discussion of
how each band sounds, much more differ from each other.
Later,
Ben
http://members.tripod.com/~tamad2/
ICQ: 12832406
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Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 15:02:10 EDT
From: JonAbbey2@aol.com
Subject: Re: Zorn List Digest V3 #548 - Axel Doerner
In a message dated 8/26/01 1:58:13 PM, greyelkgel@yahoo.com writes:
<< > I hope to see some of you at the Labor Day Tonic
> show (Axel's NYC club debut),
actually, axel played at carnegie hall a few years ago
as part of the jazz band in a piece by bernd zimmerman
for orchestra and jazz band. >>
which is why I was careful to add the word "club" rather than just saying
"NYC debut", my nitpicking friend. :)
Jon
www.erstwhilerecords.com
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Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 15:38:13 -0400
From: "Steve Smith" <ssmith36@sprynet.com>
Subject: RE: LORDS OF CHAOS, BLOOD AXIS, etc
It's worth noting at this point, perhaps, that according to Amazon.com, the
notorious Moynihan (who we've discussed here once before, if memory serves)
did not write 'Lords of Chaos,' only its preface. The author of the book
itself appears to have been Didrik Soderlind. Or is Amazon mistaken?
Anyway, I looked at the reader reviews - always the most important thing to
use when weighing an Amazon purchase, I think - and decided to order Deena
Weinstein's 'Heavy Metal: The Music and Its Culture' instead.
Steve Smith
ssmith36@sprynet.com
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Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 12:47:00 -0700
From: Skip Heller <velaires@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Aging Artists
> It's been my experience that most artists (not just one trick ponies) reach
> a point of stagnation; point where innovation stops. This doesn't mean the
> person's technical ability stops improving. I think we fall into the trap
> of comparing a artists who die in mid-flight -- Hendrix, Coltrane, Parker
> (no pun intended), etc. -- to artists who live their lives out. It's
> impossible to expect constant innovation from people entering into a part of
> their lives when innovation is no longer priority. Middle age is the "age
> of mastery" to developmental psychologist, not the age of innovation. Zorn
> and other artists are honing their skills by going in depth into things so
> they can do them as best they can. Should we expect Nobel prizes every year
> from a scientist who won when he was 30?
>
> Zach
>
> -
>
Zach --
No, we shouldn't. Most people don't even make that kind of mark even once,
and it's worse than disrespectful to forget that. When I hear people run
down someone like Sonny Rollins with a remark like "He should have quit
after SAXOPHONE COLOSSUS" or whatever, I generally feel like kicking their
teeth down their throat.
You only have to raise the bar once to have changed how the sport gets
played. Most artists never quite do that, and to have done it at all --
regardless of age -- is a miracle. To stay in business in such a
competitive, timely field as the creative arts is a minor miracle. And,
unfortunately, so is getting and keeping the respect for your contributions.
skip h
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Date: 26 Aug 2001 19:46:13 -0000
From: "Millie Gorgon" <snacky@disinfo.net>
Subject: Zorn-pol
(Zitt sed:)
>I have written, performed, and recorded at least one piece that was directly prompted by the issues in Israel, in particular events in Hebron. But, since the music is a bit abstract, I doubt that would be perceived from the sounds themselves. That said, I strongly believe, and often quote, John Cage's statement: "... the performance of a piece of music can be a metaphor of society, or how we want society to be.... We could make a piece of music in which we are willing to live." My particular focus of interest is in improvisation structures (akin to Zorn's game works) as models for human interaction. So I've worked a lot with some political issues (some might say from a radical perspective) within the music that I do.
i fully agree with the Cage quote; but it still bothers me that we have such a limitation to metaphor. music and speech are already symbolic, why must we always write in meta-symbols/metaphor? NWA said "Fuck Tha Police." Hardcore is more of a physical (non-symbolic) assault on the listener than anything else. why not, at least occasionally, say what you mean. like in Chadbourne's protest tunes. it's limiting not to!
>> >How about if you actually go over there, live a while, get to know
>>people on both sides there, and then attempt to form an easy
> >opinion. I suspect that your moccasins have not yet logged that mile.
> > you pegged me right - i'm young. i'm guilty. i've never been to Hebron.
> >however, i don't wear moccasins. you might be interested to know that
> >young hippy activist types never like me. why are we talking about me?
>OK, context error: this was a reference to the aphorism that "you cannot truly understand a person until you have walked a mile in his moccasins."
That is funny - i sure make myself look stupid sometimes. (please, no cheap shots, e.g. "it's your arguments that make you look even more stupid, stupid.")
>> contrast with rural american folk and blues - there was always subject matter about power and current events; this was how music existed long before the commodified, self-referencing form we consume now.
>But, on the other hand, why would one possibly want to limit art to the discussion of these issues? . . . While some have sung of current events and power, many sang of love, of work, of family, of religion, of mortality, and of every aspect of human life, as well as the huge amounts of instrumental musics without topics. To say that only the corner of music concerning "power and current events" existed is to evince a lack of information about the real range of these musics.
precisely, folk musics are about all of those things -and what's the missing category from the RJC Series? - which certainly is about all of those things you listed, EXCEPT current events/politics (and maybe work...)
(Fruitman sed:)
>stinks. Furthermore, upon ratification of Israel┤s right to exist by the UN and the subsequent wars of 1948 and 1967, some 800,000 Jews residing in Arab lands were deported. In the crass realpolitik of this tiny patch of land, nobody┤s hands are clean.
(right, the Palestinians have dirty hands cuz they no longer have access to water in which to clean them..) didn't most of those 800,000 Jews emigrate (by choice) to Israel because their homeland was founded? don't forget that in 1967 the UN ordered Israel to withdrawal from occupied territories; 34 years later, they've refused to comply. it's simple, direct, forced colonization; who besides the US and Israel approves???
& i concur w/ Bill Ashline about his comments on Chomsky...
>Finally: I believe this debate really got hung up by the word "Radical". Had Zorn called his series "the Jewish Cultural Renaissance" (a term coined by Martin Buber to describe roughly what we┤re talking about), I don┤t believe we┤d have any problems, no?
generally, we wouldn't. it's not so much a hangup as that is what the debate was (WAS!) about. i have differing expectations when considering a Radical group and Cultural Renaissance group. the latter sounds flaky to me (no offense to Buber, there wasn't any token/commodified multiculturalism around when he coined the phrase) - the quality and the content of the RJC would have exceeded my expectations if that were its title. also, i'm picking on Zorn only because he has these pretensions about radicalism while he's at a high point in his bourgeois respectability. Spy v Spy made people flee from the venue.
(Zitt again (1st line is me):)
>> could be that the current role of art and behavior of artists is impoverished and useless?
>To paraphrase Keepnews again, "Useless to whom?" Some might say that one feature of "art" is that it tends not to be "useful".
useless to whom? - useless to the regular person! ever read Zappa's lecture to the American Society of University Composers about the current role of the composer in the US? (it's in the Real Frank Zappa Book)- "why do people continue to compose music, and even pretend to teach each others how to do it, when they already know the answer? Nobody gives a fuck."
i revert to my former (slightly amended) statement:
could it be that the current role of art and behavior of artists is impoverished and useless? and as incredible and beautiful as Zorn's music is, that, in the end, it is nothing but a a series of statements limited within a self-circumscribed community of artists that professes to be, somehow, radical. this is politically sanitized for musicians and polite bourgeois only. contrast with rural american folk and blues - there was always subject matter about power and current events integrated within other human topics; this was how music existed long before the commodified, self-referencing escapism we consume now.
then again, someone who tells Vaclav Havel, Madeline Albright and Lou Reed to SHUT THE FUCK UP! can't be all that non-political....
ok that's that's really the last of my input this time. boing!
be well,
mg
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End of Zorn List Digest V3 #549
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