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From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest) To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: Zorn List Digest V3 #412 Reply-To: zorn-list Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Zorn List Digest Tuesday, May 8 2001 Volume 03 : Number 412 In this issue: - Hagakure/Lynch Re: grumpy over cecil Re: grumpy over art Re: grumpy over cecil Re: grumpy over art Re: grumpy over cecil Re: grumpy over cecil Re: grumpy over cecil mm exhibit for the prosecution Burns gets burned burns bashing Re: Burns gets burned Re: Burns gets burned Re: Bill Frisell - Power Tools ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 22:26:12 +0200 From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Efr=E9n_del_Valle?=" <efrendv@yahoo.es> Subject: Hagakure/Lynch This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0084_01C0D80D.E35D7060 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks to you all for the "Hagakure" and Lynch orientations. I bought = "Hagakure" this morning and "Lynch on Lynch", which I have already = started and is a real PLEASURE!!; also a Tim Burton one called "Cuentos = en Sombras" published by Gl=E9nat. Highly recommendable, basically for = the Spanish-speakers here though. Best regards, Efr=E9n del Valle n.p: Bennink/Mengelberg/Br=F6tzmann: "3 Points and a Mountain..." (FMP) - ------=_NextPart_000_0084_01C0D80D.E35D7060 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN"> <HTML> <HEAD> <META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 = http-equiv=3DContent-Type> <META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV>Thanks to you all for the = "Hagakure"=20 and Lynch orientations. I bought "Hagakure" this morning and=20 "Lynch on Lynch", which I have already started and is a real=20 PLEASURE!!; also a Tim Burton one called "Cuentos en Sombras"=20 published by Glénat. Highly recommendable, basically for the=20 Spanish-speakers here though.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Best regards,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Efrén del Valle</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>n.p: = Bennink/Mengelberg/Brötzmann: "3=20 Points and a Mountain..." (FMP)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></BODY></HTML> - ------=_NextPart_000_0084_01C0D80D.E35D7060-- _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 17:10:25 -0400 (EDT) From: konrad <konrad@panix.com> Subject: Re: grumpy over cecil On Tue, 8 May 2001, Patrice L. Roussel wrote: [quoting scott] > > > > You might be right about this, except isn't this > > complacency and incestuousness easily as true of > > "scenes" in general? People want to be in the [snip] > > Some scenes couldn't care less about such "quality": > > for them, it is a form of social activity. Punk, > > maybe. I found it strange you should choose to pick > > on poetry. > > Nothing strange, poetry is simply the easiest gateway to art (or at least to > somebody's definition of what they think art is), added to a threshold of > expectations that is now close to zero (could I dare to say that a technical You're making broad generalizations. I disagree with the first one since i think painting is the first thing most people think of when you use the word 'art.' > notice for an appliance is not poetry?), I feel that poetry has become (at > least in the US, because it is still a specialty with high expectations in > France) the realm of self-indulgence and amateurism (to say it nicely). I am > sure that they are still great poets, but they might have a hard time to > breathe. It's too bad there isn't some poetry you can enjoy or or learn something from or be inspired by in the US. But i don't think it follows that everything's fostered merely by a coterie. konrad ^Z - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 14:14:37 -0700 From: "z~S" <keith@pfmentum.com> Subject: Re: grumpy over art >>>I disagree with the first one since i think painting is the first thing most people think of when you use the word 'art.'<<< Word association experiments have shown that the majority of people think of 'Linkletter' when presented with the word 'art.' 'Garfunkel' is a close second with 'Tripp' a distant third. - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 15:12:07 -0500 From: Joseph Zitt <jzitt@metatronpress.com> Subject: Re: grumpy over cecil On Tue, May 08, 2001 at 01:28:06PM -0700, Patrice L. Roussel wrote: > Nothing strange, poetry is simply the easiest gateway to art (or at least to > somebody's definition of what they think art is), added to a threshold of > expectations that is now close to zero (could I dare to say that a technical > notice for an appliance is not poetry?), I feel that poetry has become (at > least in the US, because it is still a specialty with high expectations in > France) the realm of self-indulgence and amateurism (to say it nicely). I am > sure that they are still great poets, but they might have a hard time to > breathe. Hence my ironic comment: are not all poets great these days? To > paraphrase the famous sentence on Manet: what is the name of the poet who > lost the recipee for bad poetry? Well, I don't find the statement to be ironic. Sarcastic maybe, but not ironic. Poetry serves many different purposes. For many, it is a means of talking about one's self and surroundings in a way that uses some form of artifice. Many open mic poetry readings that I have attended have been less like concerts than like support meetings or diary readings. And that's OK as it is. Much poetry that might be considered "great" would go over badly there, as it would at poetry slams. But I find published poetry to still be pretty strong. Where do you find all the bad stuff that so worries you? Could you be looking for "great" "art" in areas where the forms that you appreciate might be inappropriate? Which poets do you find to be having "a heard time to breathe"? In what sense do you feel that the expansion of venues and media for poetry in recent years squeezes them out? In what sense is this situation different than for music (after all, music doesn't necessarily need instruments) or for visual art? - -- |> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <| | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt | | Latest CD: Jerusaklyn http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt | | Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 18:02:35 -0400 (EDT) From: konrad <konrad@panix.com> Subject: Re: grumpy over art On Tue, 8 May 2001, z~S wrote: > Word association experiments have shown > that the majority of people think of 'Linkletter' > when presented with the word 'art.' > > 'Garfunkel' is a close second with 'Tripp' a > distant third. Those were all done only on people over 40. ;) ^Z - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 15:26:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Scott Handley <thesubtlebody@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: grumpy over cecil - --- "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com> wrote: > Nothing strange, poetry is simply the easiest > gateway to art (or at least to > somebody's definition of what they think art is), I find this very strange; even in France (and certainly in the US), don't raw numbers indicate that visual culture (and by this I specifically, and exclusively, mean film and television, though maybe now we should include video/computer games) is dominant? I mean how much more likely is it that the closest most people get to "art" has little if anything to do with formal language, above the level of the colloquial? What I mean is, isn't it much more probable that poetry---more marginal in the US than theater, if you don't count the hip-hop and film industries---would be the _last_ art form that someone would encounter or appreciate AS ART? When I meet people who have grown up without a television, and who don't know who Austin Powers is, I am amazed, envious, and reflexively contemptuous of them. >I feel that > poetry has become...the realm of self-indulgence and amateurism > (to say it nicely). I can appreciate your gift of distinction, though it seems truly, um, ironic, that such distinctions should/would be made, and made rhetorically, on a list like this, of all places. It reminds me of the Spat Upon spitting upon. The mathematical form: Classical-connoisseurs-for-whom-all-music-ended-with-Mahler > jazz snobs > "us" > aging sophistopunks > teenagers arguing about what "punk" is > even lower forms of life. Since the average appetite on this list is only fair to middlin on the cultural capital food chain, it might be helpful to be more specific about what differentiates the "amateur" from the "professional". >Hence my ironic comment: are not all poets > great these days? To > paraphrase the famous sentence on Manet: what is the > name of the poet who > lost the recipee for bad poetry? Something I personally find annoying is when people who seem to not have any feel for the inner workings of language invoke the aura of this hallowed form of language as a kind of posturing. That's vague, but right now, I can't systematize it any more than that. One gets the sense that these people also believe that arranging sentences in a funny fashion equals poetry...and that's it. If there's one thing I think I understand about your argument, and agree with, Patrice, it would be how irritating and boring the exaltation of the talentless is, and how clearly insular it appears, especially when one looks into the party from outside. I try not to give in to hype, which would seem to be the root of all that; though I find resisting hype to be difficult. David Toop writes so positively, and so well, about early house music, but it still sounds like shite to me. And I'm dissatisfied with my response, though to date, it hasn't changed. And I am irritated at myself for what seems to be a lack of imagination or receptiveness. But I'll be damned if I'll keep knocking my head against that wall.... - -----s P.S. Speaking of Toop, Jon Abbey was right about the swell Toop review of Sachiko M and T. Nakamura's DO record in the April WIRE, but the real kicker was Toop's review of the new Autechre. What a writer! I relish these guys almost as much as the musicians. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 19:01:03 EDT From: JonAbbey2@aol.com Subject: Re: grumpy over cecil In a message dated 5/8/01 6:29:14 PM, thesubtlebody@yahoo.com writes: << Speaking of Toop, Jon Abbey was right about the swell Toop review of Sachiko M and T. Nakamura's DO record in the April WIRE, but the real kicker was Toop's review of the new Autechre. What a writer! I relish these guys almost as much as the musicians. >> there's a Toop piece in the upcoming Sunday NY Times Arts and Leisure, a preview of my Tonic festival. what other current music critics do you include under "these guys", Scott? Jon www.erstwhilerecords.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 17:39:54 -0600 (MDT) From: Matt Plummer <Matthew.Plummer@Colorado.EDU> Subject: Re: grumpy over cecil > > You're making broad generalizations. I disagree with the first one since > i think painting is the first thing most people think of when you use the > word 'art.' > I think the main point was not that poetry was the first thing you think of when you say 'art', but that poetry is the easiest to do yourself. No materials needed, only a piece of paper and a pencil. In contrast to music, which requires intruments, or visual art, which could require paint, charcoal, etc. Therefore, it would be easier for a newcomer to just start writing poetry, as opposed to starting painting, etc. Also, in the public as a whole, there may be more of an aesthetic standard for visual art then poetry, although that is debatable. Matt Plummer - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 19:44:52 EDT From: ObviousEye@aol.com Subject: mm - --part1_43.14cf136f.2829def4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/8/01 4:31:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com writes: > It was an ironic comment on how clanish poetry has become. You get sometimes > the impression that the quality of a poet has more to do with which side of > the fence he/she is than really his/her poetry. You are part of the group > and > your poetry is fantastic; you are not part of the group and its quality is > questionable. > kind of like avant garde music(ians) and fans...i find myself thinking like this all too often. ben o. - --part1_43.14cf136f.2829def4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <HTML>In a message dated 5/8/01 4:31:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com writes: <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">It was an ironic comment on how clanish poetry has become. You get sometimes the impression that the quality of a poet has more to do with which side of the fence he/she is than really his/her poetry. You are part of the group and your poetry is fantastic; you are not part of the group and its quality is questionable. </BLOCKQUOTE> kind of like avant garde music(ians) and fans...i find myself thinking like this all too often. ben o.</HTML> - --part1_43.14cf136f.2829def4_boundary-- - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 16:49:29 -0700 From: "z~S" <keith@pfmentum.com> Subject: exhibit for the prosecution these are not questions which lead to enlightenment take a shit instead - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 19:51:55 EDT From: Samerivertwice@aol.com Subject: Burns gets burned I thought this was appropriate given how much conversation there was on this list over the jazz series. Ken Burns' "Ken Burns" will be the next production from America's self-described "greatest living documentary filmmaker." The indefatigable Burns will examine his own life in thorough, even exhaustive detail - 18 two-hour shows, a 650- page coffee table book, calendars, neckties, napkin rings, a bagel toaster, a children's breakfast cereal, a Sony Playstation 2 game, and a 9-volume CD set of his favorite music, including one CD of him humming what may or may not be his favorite show tunes. Narrators will include John Chancellor, James Earl Jones, Garrison Keillor, Maya Angelou, Wynton Marsalis, Rosie O'Donnell, Barney Frank, Buck O'Neill, Jaime Escalante, Bill Clinton, Shelby Foote, Sister Wendy, Yo-Yo Ma, and a member of 'NSync to be named later. "This is the next logical step in my development as America's best-loved and smartest person," said Burns at a press conference. "I was the first American to really 'get' the was the first person to figure out that baseball had a social importance beyond the beer-swilling yahoos who watch it. And most recently, I forced America to acknowledge that Negroes had a key role in the birth and development of jazz music. Now I want to share my life's pilgrimage -- an adventure that is nothing less than a blueprint for Joseph Campbell's Hero's Journey -- so that others might benefit." Burns will utilize archival photos, drawings, vintage 8mm family film clips and Japanese shadow puppets to dramatize his life. Interviews will include Mrs. Blanche Goltz, his 3rd grade teacher; Finley Blasingame, his agent; Kent Zimmer, a man he impressed at a party by naming every member of the Miles Davis "Kind of Blue" quintet; and Thorndyke Havrisham Jr., Vice-President of Public Broadcasting and the third person to call Burns a genius. After a lengthy negotiation, Burns has also agreed to an extensive interview with himself. "I didn't know if I could get me. But after I explained just how important I was to my story, I talked myself into it." He didn't disappoint himself - he was able to uncover surprising insights about his own life. "Before I undertook this project," says Burns, "I had no idea that I had done so much to enlighten so many ignorant, wretched people. I had no idea I was such an avatar of enlightened edu-tainment, especially as it pertains to my funky soul brothers. And I had no idea that I liked great old movies, romantic walks on the beach, and a glass of wine by the fire." The entire project will take 5 years and cost 11 million dollars. The cost is being underwritten by General Motors, the Corporation for Public Broadcasting, and whatever tobacco company is most in need of positive PR spin at the end of this year. The first episode, "From Cosmic Dream-Dust to Potty-Training" will air in 2005. The last episode, "Everything A Human Being Can and Should Be" might air as late as 2007. - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 17:03:17 -0700 From: Skip Heller <velaires@earthlink.net> Subject: burns bashing Um, is it me, or is this getting tired? skip h - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 22:00:13 EDT From: Dgasque@aol.com Subject: Re: Burns gets burned Heehee...classic stuff. - -- =dg= - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 22:41:57 EDT From: IOUaLive1@aol.com Subject: Re: Burns gets burned - --part1_f.140b4f02.282a0875_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit that was hilarious : ))) - --part1_f.140b4f02.282a0875_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <HTML>that was hilarious : )))</HTML> - --part1_f.140b4f02.282a0875_boundary-- - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 22:52:09 EDT From: IOUaLive1@aol.com Subject: Re: Bill Frisell - Power Tools - --part1_c1.e2abdb7.282a0ad9_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/7/2001 5:45:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ssmith36@sprynet.com writes: > so if you're a Frisell fan and you see it, do not hesitate. > AGREED! > he band soldiered on for a while, but a European tour eventually resulted > in some bad blood between Frisell and Jackson (they're polar opposites, > personality-wise). Frisell left, and was replaced by Pete Cosey, augmented > by a second guitarist, maybe David Gilmore or Ronnie Drayton (my tape of > that latter band is in storage, so I can't check at the moment). But this > was a more pedestrian blues-rock affair, not even close to the inspiration > of the original, though it might have been impressive live and in person. It was David Gilmore --- interesting tape (FM from the old Knit) but I agree, not the same without Frisell. > > Did anyone hear the Vernon Reid/Gibbs/Jackson reunion trio at the Bell > Atlantic Festival year before last? > Yes, and THAT was GREAT !! A mini Decoding Society which I thought captured the vibe of that music pretty well in a power trio setting. I dont get BET Jazz, but wasnt one of those gigs broadcast? Would LOVE to see a copy. - -Jody - --part1_c1.e2abdb7.282a0ad9_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <HTML>In a message dated 5/7/2001 5:45:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ssmith36@sprynet.com writes: <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">so if you're a Frisell fan and you see it, do not hesitate. </BLOCKQUOTE> AGREED! T<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">he band soldiered on for a while, but a European tour eventually resulted in some bad blood between Frisell and Jackson (they're polar opposites, personality-wise). Frisell left, and was replaced by Pete Cosey, augmented by a second guitarist, maybe David Gilmore or Ronnie Drayton (my tape of that latter band is in storage, so I can't check at the moment). But this was a more pedestrian blues-rock affair, not even close to the inspiration of the original, though it might have been impressive live and in person.</BLOCKQUOTE> It was David Gilmore --- interesting tape (FM from the old Knit) but I agree, not the same without Frisell. <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"> Did anyone hear the Vernon Reid/Gibbs/Jackson reunion trio at the Bell Atlantic Festival year before last? </BLOCKQUOTE> Yes, and THAT was GREAT !! A mini Decoding Society which I thought captured the vibe of that music pretty well in a power trio setting. I dont get BET Jazz, but wasnt one of those gigs broadcast? Would LOVE to see a copy. -Jody </HTML> - --part1_c1.e2abdb7.282a0ad9_boundary-- - - ------------------------------ End of Zorn List Digest V3 #412 ******************************* To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to "majordomo@lists.xmission.com" with "unsubscribe zorn-list-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "zorn-list-digest" in the commands above with "zorn-list". Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from ftp.xmission.com, in pub/lists/zorn-list/archive. These are organized by date. Problems? Email the list owner at zorn-list-owner@lists.xmission.com