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Zorn List Digest        Wednesday, May 9 2001        Volume 03 : Number 413



In this issue:
-
       Re: Zorn List Digest V3 #412
       toop on "do"
       McPhee/Braxton recommendations
       Re: toop on "do"
       Re: grumpy over cecil
       Naked City sampled and David Lynch
       Re: Naked City sampled and David Lynch
       rec.music.experimental
       Re: rec.music.experimental
       State of poetry
       martin davidson drops the chronic plates on yo ass, biatch
       Re: State of poetry
       Re: State of poetry
       Re: State of poetry
       Re: State of poetry
       Re: rec.music.experimental

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 23:22:26 -0400
From: Christopher eaton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn List Digest V3 #412

i find the thread of american poetry very interesting, since i myself just
released my first book of experimental fiction and poetry.  i am a creative
writing major at oberlin college and want to assure everyone that there is
an actual poetic intelligentsia alive, if not well, in america.  the
problem lies in the fact that no one's buying (someone recently suggested
that if james joyce had written ulysses in today's market, he would have
terrible trouble finding a publisher), and unlike the music industry,
poetry is a literary art (and more americans have a hard time with
literature than music).

the other thing i've noticed about the state of poetry is that it's so easy
to do and so easily created by the vast masses and because of the internet,
it's very easy to spread your 'art' to others.  this has caused a vast
proliferation of bad poetry (as there always has been).

however, just as those of us on this list have found ways past mainstream
musical garbage to our own interesting niche, there are just as many
options for poetry. the problem comes with definition, because many poets
and writers today are really pushing the boundary of what is considered
poetry, and we get writers like leslie scalapino, who might or might not be
considered poetry (although she does have some uncontested 'poetry'
publications out.  everybody, if you haven't already, please read her "the
front matter, dead souls."  it's excellent.

i always love recommendin stuff, so i'd be happy to do so if anyone wants
to email me privately.

~christopher

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 09:54:18 -0000
From: "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>
Subject: toop on "do"

Well I'm not really sure how "great" I'd call this review.  The best part
about it was that it was phenomenological in approach, as he focused
primarily on his own private listening adumbrations.  Beyond that, it was
mostly analogies to some far flung sources, suggesting both the breath of
his reading and a lack of descriptive power for dealing with the music.  On
this score, I'd agree that this particular CD defies description.  As to the
evaluative register, I'd say it's going to be one of the best of year on
most lists of note.  And yes I do think it points to some significant
possibilities for avant-garde music now that the avant-garde in places like
jazz has become a more familiar idiom.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 11:54:21 +0200 (CEST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?efr=E9n=20del=20valle?= <[e-mail]>
Subject: McPhee/Braxton recommendations

Hi everyone!

Sorry to be asking so regularly for recommendations.
On the other hand, it means that YOU'RE RELIABLE.
Please, look at it that way!:)

This time I'd like to get deeper into Anthony Braxton
and Joe McPhee's discographies, specially those
records released through Hat hut, which are the ones I
can find easily here. To begin with, I'd rather listen
to them in group contexts, or in duo at the least.
Solo might be a hard starter.

A million thanks in advance.

Take care,

EfrΘn del VAlle

_______________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Messenger: Comunicaci≤n inmediata gratis con tus amigos -
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- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 13:38:59 -0000
From: "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: toop on "do"

>>From: "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>

>>The best part
>>about it was that it was phenomenological in approach, as he focused
>>primarily on his own private listening adumbrations.

I meant to say something slightly different than how it came out:  "The best
part about it (the review) was that it didn't try to be evaluative while
preferring to follow a phenomenological approach focusing on his own private
listening adumbrations."  He did say something close to evaluative when he
wrote about the "profound physiological effects" of the music, though I get
these as well when listening to Yoshihide and Ikeda, etc.  And BTW the
screws on my ceiling tiles were rattling quite noisily when I played this CD
and even then not at high volume.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 07:45:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: Scott Handley <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: grumpy over cecil

Thanks to Matt Plummer for clarifying what I probably
should have picked up on more quickly:

- --- "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
wrote:
> Nothing strange, poetry is simply the easiest
> gateway to art

If this means that poetry as a practice is
economically easier, potentially takes less time and
money than, say, a novel or a film or music, then I
agree completely.  But while some people bemoan the
necessary side-effects of such
accesibility---"amateurishness", dilution of the
form's "quality", etc---I see potential for liberation
and community and continued relevance in a society
with changing literacies and changing priorities.  Of
course, I value aesthetics as well as politics, and I
have never liked hearing poetry read, oddly, and I
think there's much bad poetry floating around.  The
interesting thing is the potential of such a form to
act like cement for possible creative communities.  If
I were to go to my daughter's school play or band
concert, and it was excruciating, I would probably
enjoy it anyway.  Of course, I don't have a daughter,
so this is a moot point, but my point is that there
are situations and conditions that render rigorous
aesthetics, and the disciplines contained therein, not
terribly important.

When Patrice said
>(or at least to somebody's definition of what they
>think art is)

I'm not sure about that, but I've gone over that
already.  Hip hop might be a contemporary
recapitulation of poetry as the "people's art".

- ----s, ceasing and desisting thought per s~Z's
instructions


__________________________________________________
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http://auctions.yahoo.com/

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 11:00:50 -0400 (EDT)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Pierre=20Toussaint?= <[e-mail]>
Subject: Naked City sampled and David Lynch

Hi,
Opening for Autechre in Montreal yesterday was Russell
Laswell. First time I heard this guy. Anyway, he
sampled some Naked City tracks off Torture Garden.
Funny, but it was at this time that the crowd danced
the most enthusiastically and cheered the loudest.

As for David Lynch, Slavoj Zizek published a paper on
the Lost Highway pict. "The Art of The Ridiculous
Sublime" 2000. Seattle: Walter Chapin Simpson Center
for the Humanities, University of Washington.

Pierre



- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 11:19:39 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Naked City sampled and David Lynch

In a message dated 5/9/01 11:01:52 AM, [e-mail] writes:

<< Opening for Autechre in Montreal yesterday was Russell

Laswell. >>

that's actually Russell Haswell, curator of the old Disobey nights in London,
who also just released a long, long, delayed CD on Mego (check out the
catalog number, it's from before Hotel Parallel).

Jon
www.erstwhilerecords.com

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 19:11:03 +0300
From: "Vincent Kargatis / Anne Larson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: rec.music.experimental

Currently, r.m.e. seems to be populated primarily from young musicians that
talk about upsetting their high school classmates and describing shows at
which they've taken ecstasy.  Ok, maybe not primarily, but I encourage
denizens of this list to "donate" some discussion over in that forum, to
provide more coverage.  I tried with an electronica (Ikeda/etc) question,
but only got two brief responses.  Help make it more worthwhile for me... :)

vince


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 12:26:23 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: rec.music.experimental

In a message dated 5/9/01 12:20:03 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<< Ok, maybe not primarily, but I encourage

denizens of this list to "donate" some discussion over in that forum, to

provide more coverage.  I tried with an electronica (Ikeda/etc) question,

but only got two brief responses.  Help make it more worthwhile for me... :)>>

unfortunately, AOL hasn't yet made this newsgroup available, despite my
asking them to do so a couple of times. I've taken a few looks at it through
dejanews, but that's way more of a pain, so I haven't really bothered much.

Jon
www.erstwhilerecords.com

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 12:36:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: konrad <[e-mail]>
Subject: State of poetry

On Tue, 8 May 2001, Christopher eaton wrote:

> the other thing i've noticed about the state of poetry is that it's so easy
> to do and so easily created by the vast masses and because of the internet,
> it's very easy to spread your 'art' to others.  this has caused a vast
> proliferation of bad poetry (as there always has been).

Matt Plummer pointed out that the original comment was supposed to mean
that poetry was 'easy' or perceived so because one could do it with a
pencil and paper.  I think if Patrice actually meant that, then it was
self-contradictory, because the idea that it's 'easy' exactly what leads
one to believe there is mostly crap.  Both in the sense that Christopher
is saying here (easy to produce, i.e. anyone can do it) and in the sense
that someone who thinks its ALL crap seems to suffer from (easy to
understand, i.e. everyone should get it).

> however, just as those of us on this list have found ways past mainstream
> musical garbage to our own interesting niche, there are just as many
> options for poetry. the problem comes with definition, because many poets
> and writers today are really pushing the boundary of what is considered
> poetry, and we get writers like leslie scalapino, who might or might not be
> considered poetry (although she does have some uncontested 'poetry'
> publications out.  everybody, if you haven't already, please read her "the
> front matter, dead souls."  it's excellent.

Interesting that you mention her, because she's someone i'm working with
on a film using the text of her poem 'way' as a soundtrack.  She's
certainly someone who's been at work for almost 30 years, and who i
immediately thought of in contrast to the 'no good poetry anymore' idea.
She is very interested in working with all the qualities of language
simultaneously: musical, discursive and metaphorical.  (I have a
recording, which i believe was made at IRCAM or at least some computer
music studio in Paris, which used her intonation to drive a piano-sound
algorithm.)

I can see that someone thinks her work, for example, just for the
'initiate' -- but as others have said, same true for music, etc.  And even
if that's your point of view -- that in no way means that it's 'bad.'


konrad



^Z



- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 09:54:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: Scott Handley <[e-mail]>
Subject: martin davidson drops the chronic plates on yo ass, biatch

I thought this might be amusing to some of you:

http://www.emanemdisc.com/rap.html

Also, I hope this has not already found its way to
this list:

http://getretarded.topcities.com/gr2/page25.html

- ----s, has a job, really



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 10:12:28 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: State of poetry

On Wed, 9 May 2001 12:36:09 -0400 (EDT)  konrad wrote:
>
>
> On Tue, 8 May 2001, Christopher eaton wrote:
>
> > the other thing i've noticed about the state of poetry is that it's so easy
> > to do and so easily created by the vast masses and because of the internet,
> > it's very easy to spread your 'art' to others.  this has caused a vast
> > proliferation of bad poetry (as there always has been).
>
> Matt Plummer pointed out that the original comment was supposed to mean
> that poetry was 'easy' or perceived so because one could do it with a
> pencil and paper.  I think if Patrice actually meant that, then it was
> self-contradictory, because the idea that it's 'easy' exactly what leads
> one to believe there is mostly crap.  Both in the sense that Christopher
> is saying here (easy to produce, i.e. anyone can do it) and in the sense
> that someone who thinks its ALL crap seems to suffer from (easy to
> understand, i.e. everyone should get it).

My point was that for somebody who desperatly needs to be perceived as an
artist, poetry is the simplest gateway. This results from the fact that
the investement is zero and the standards of the genre have almost collapsed
(since making any comment on style or form is considered as faux-pas these
days). As a result, poetry has, in my opinion, the highest proportion of
untalented people desperatly looking for being "artists".

If paper was expensive, the average quality of poetry would raise :-).

I never meant that poetry as an art was easy but that poetry is the art
for which masquerading as an artist is the easiest. And since standards of
criticism appear to have disappeared, we are exposed to a plethora of
pathetic attempts at being creative by totally untalented people.

    Patrice.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 10:19:54 -0700
From: "z~S" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: State of poetry

>>>As a result, poetry has, in my opinion, the highest proportion of
untalented people desperatly looking for being "artists".<<<

Visit your local mp3 site for evidence to the contrary.




- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 10:28:39 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: State of poetry

On Wed, 9 May 2001 10:19:54 -0700  "z~S" wrote:
>
> >>>As a result, poetry has, in my opinion, the highest proportion of
> untalented people desperatly looking for being "artists".<<<
>
> Visit your local mp3 site for evidence to the contrary.

I am affraid that you are right. But this is very recent due to the
availability of modern technology (both to make music and diffuse it).
I don't know how people on the list deals with that, but the last thing
I want to do is to spend hours at my computer to download MP3 files. I
have enough trouble to listen to all the records that I buy.

Even creapier (at least for me) will be the video revolution where every
owner of a Sony video camera will feel on the same side as Cukor or
Hitchcock :-).

Looks like gargabe mail was only the first wave, the tip of an iceberg...

    Patrice.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 11:53:46 -0500
From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: State of poetry

On Wed, May 09, 2001 at 10:12:28AM -0700, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:

> My point was that for somebody who desperatly needs to be perceived as an
> artist, poetry is the simplest gateway. This results from the fact that
> the investement is zero and the standards of the genre have almost collapsed
> (since making any comment on style or form is considered as faux-pas these
> days). As a result, poetry has, in my opinion, the highest proportion of
> untalented people desperatly looking for being "artists".

Who considers these as faux-pas? In the poetry circles in which I run,
style and form are very much topics of debate. It's just that they have
both opened out widely and been seen as questionable.

But isn't that exactly true in the free improv and related musics to
which this list is devoted? Why do you apparently see it as a problem
in text but not in music?

And how, again, does the large number of amateur poets have any impact
whatsoever on the "good" poets?

For that matter, what poets nowadays do you see as good? My tastes run
to Jackson MacLow, Ron Silliman, Lyn Hejinian, Jerome Rothenberg,
Margaretta Waterman, Marge Piercy, and others.

> If paper was expensive, the average quality of poetry would raise :-).

Ah, so by that logic you appear to believe that rich people intrinsically
write better poetry. How much should we charge for a poetic license?

> I never meant that poetry as an art was easy but that poetry is the art
> for which masquerading as an artist is the easiest. And since standards of
> criticism appear to have disappeared, we are exposed to a plethora of
> pathetic attempts at being creative by totally untalented people.

But who set these standards? Where do talented poets come from? Surely
you're familiar with the less-stellar early writings of many writers
who were acclaimed later in life. Should they have stopped writing
early on so as not to clutter your pristine literary landscape with
evolutionary attempts.

I have seen good poetry rise from the common level over many years of
attending readings, organizing poetry festivals, and publishing my
own work and some of that of others. From what background and investment
of energies do your opinions rise? Where are you seeing this supposed
tide of bad poetry driving out the good?

- --
|> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <|
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| Latest CD: Jerusaklyn                  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 14:05:03 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: rec.music.experimental

In a message dated 5/9/01 12:27:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< unfortunately, AOL hasn't yet made this newsgroup available, despite my
 asking them to do so a couple of times. I've taken a few looks at it through
 dejanews, but that's way more of a pain, so I haven't really bothered much.
  >>

As have I- to AOL, that is.  Since Google took over the Deja service...well,
I'll stop before I succumb to ranting.

It's always a chuckle to check out the newsgroups added to AOL coffiers.
There's always a head-scratcher or two there.

- --
np: The Mavericks- Trampoline (one of those "guilty pleasures".  No Zorn
content at all, of course--just some great blues and TexMex-inspired music,
along with one of the best voices in the music business in Raul Malo)

=dg=

- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V3 #413
*******************************


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